Engineer/Magus- Unclear Role

[Bombelsky]

After testing the new patch on my 40 Engineer I have come to the conclusion that these two classes are being wiped of any definitive role. With the change in electromagnet we now have a completely useless tree with the tinker line. That being said I am not against the electromagnet change. I am however concerned that the tinker line, which in my opinion is the most definitive engineer line (support, crowd control) is now completely void of any abilility which would make me choose that path. The support items are just far too weak to have any sort of impact within rvr. This line needed help more then any other but was in fact the only one to not see the slightest improvement. Perhaps number changes will help the line (more healing on , more disrupt, more critical hit) or a total reworking of the line is needed.

As it stands now we have officially become a ranged dps class but in no way warrant being chosen over a BW or SW. We simply do not have enough utility to make up for the lack of comparitive dps.

[Tinman_au]

I'd have to agree after testing my Engy.

The changes are to too many area's of the ability to leave it as a viable top-tree pick, and that leaves very little else in the tree to warrant folks spending in it.

From my testing on PTS, most folks realised what I was about to do and managed to back out of the AoE in the time it took to cast. Those that didn't get out seemed to have a good chance of disrupting it so in 5 tries in one scenario I only got 2 people...

I don't mind drawing in less folks (ElectroMag gets me killed most times as Destro seems to have way more AoE than order and destro spam them when the get drawn in), but standing in front of the other team trying to cast it is a death sentance with a 65 foot range...

I'd like to see one of the following changes made to the PTS version:

1. Change it to a straight ripoff of the WL/Marauder Fetch ability.
2. Keep it as is on PTS, but change the range to 100ft.
3. Keep it as is on PTS, but drop the cast time.

[Code2501]

I'd have to agree after testing my Engy.

The changes are to too many area's of the ability to leave it as a viable top-tree pick, and that leaves very little else in the tree to warrant folks spending in it.

From my testing on PTS, most folks realised what I was about to do and managed to back out of the AoE in the time it took to cast. Those that didn't get out seemed to have a good chance of disrupting it so in 5 tries in one scenario I only got 2 people...

I don't mind drawing in less folks (ElectroMag gets me killed most times as Destro seems to have way more AoE than order and destro spam them when the get drawn in), but standing in front of the other team trying to cast it is a death sentance with a 65 foot range...

I'd like to see one of the following changes made to the PTS version:

1. Change it to a straight ripoff of the WL/Marauder Fetch ability.
2. Keep it as is on PTS, but change the range to 100ft.
3. Keep it as is on PTS, but drop the cast time.

Speaking of 65ft ranges, Magus 'Changing' line recieved a nice bost to its dot damage, but is still lacking the equivalent range extending tactic that Eng has to make it truly usefull without risking certain focus fire.

[Sahrokh]

The update to Eng and Magus is nonsensical.

They are meant to be "toy / pet / tricks / novelty / ingenuity" careers not "pure DPS".

Instead of raising their unique flavour to viable proportions, they only got a general DPS buff.

The end result:

- Piss off those whose only scope in game is to be "pure DPS", who now are a mediocre "middle of the pack".

- Piss off those who rolled a Eng / Magus for the unique features and that are not easily shut off by an easily applied DPS buff, when their features are left lackluster.

- Piss off healers and tanks. Eng / Magus should be caster support to defend / put obstacles etc. to aid melee and healers. With the change they are but another general caster pressuring healers even more and abandoning melee to their already grim destiny.

[Seabee]

The range tactic seems a weird one. Why play a rifleman when you have a 0-5 dead zone on most skills. Its not like the enemy does not know, I mean when you have a sorceror charging you to get into a dead zone. For all except snipe have the same range as an area affect grenadier and its a huge difference between engineers and magus.

I do not know Magus and maybe you get some stuff to compensate but also know it effectively means engineers have become a single spec to be most effective. You can spec rifleman but know your doing it because thats how you like to play but not because its in any way more effective.

[dasj]

i fell the same way as you. When i started as an engineer, i had this rifle guy in mind.
but had a tremendous disaponting when i saw the rifleman and tinker tree totally underpowered.
Im felling the same way as "out of role" in the game.
Are we a rdps class?
Are we a crowd control class?
Are we a utility class?

well... maybe the THREE, IF we had the our skill trees balanced AND reengineered beacuse the way it is now its broken.

people the only way to solve this is to tell MYTHIC how we feel.

report, report and report like HELL!

in my signuture theres a link to mythic feedback form.

WE WANT A BETTER CLASS

[PinkysBrain]

What is the single target DPS on a squishy on test from a gun turret when you are rifleman specced?

As for what to do when people get close ... it's not like you loose your concussion grenades landmines and turret self destructs just because you are rifleman specced. Being concered with dealing damage when you have someone within 5 feet is not realistic, you should be concerned with not getting gibbed ... because 9 out of 10 times it will be a MDPS and not some theoretical sorcerer, a MDPS who will be pumping out a hell of a lot more DPS than you ever can regardless of spec.

[Seabee]

Turrets do not last long at all, believe me its out there, rarely do I get a chance for some melee to wander up to it to destroy it so I can knock it back. Its a good skill potentially but the turret is not invisible.

I do use landmines and the grenades you have no choice. The point is there is no reason to use the rifle skills just spec grenades.

[PinkysBrain]

The build cost has been reduced, they had a 5 sec build CD to begin with and you have a tactic 4 points in to get you instacast building. If you really want a turret you can have one most of the time.

What is the single target DPS on a squishy on test from a gun turret when you are rifleman specced?

[Seabee]

Spare tactics, its a choice I admit (currently at 34 all points in rifleman). There are some threads on the engineer forum about turrets doing roughly double there previous amount. I regret I am based in the EU therefore no access to the test forum.

[Shortstack]

If magus grenadier line gets the range increase, then shadow warrior skirmish line should get the same range increase that squigs get.

[Utnapishtim]

If magus grenadier line gets the range increase, then shadow warrior skirmish line should get the same range increase that squigs get.

I agree with the (assumed) sentiment that we want variety, but do think the Magus needs something that you could call maybe "equal and opposite." The Shadow Warrior gets Charge Forth (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9132), which qualifies in comparison to the SH; I think maybe the Magus should get something similar. A reason to get really up close and personal, and maybe a boost to survivability for doing so.

[Code2501]

I agree with the (assumed) sentiment that we want variety, but do think the Magus needs something that you could call maybe "equal and opposite." The Shadow Warrior gets Charge Forth (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9132), which qualifies in comparison to the SH; I think maybe the Magus should get something similar. A reason to get really up close and personal, and maybe a boost to survivability for doing so.

Magus get some modest survivability from the Demo line (tinkering equivalent) just enough to assist with using the PBAOE effects in the line.

Changing (Grenadier) however requires us to get within 65ft but offers zero in the way of additional survivablity against other RDPs which have a range advantage on there mastered abilities.

Its not class envy, or even mirror envy, but 65ft vs 98ft is a big difference in a battle, especially when your floating high on top a disk that flashes a neon target saying "target me, target me".
But yeah, both engi and magus could use some more re-design than just tweaks to existing skills.

[Shortstack]

Magus get some modest survivability from the Demo line (tinkering equivalent) just enough to assist with using the PBAOE effects in the line.

Changing (Grenadier) however requires us to get within 65ft but offers zero in the way of additional survivablity against other RDPs which have a range advantage on there mastered abilities.

Its not class envy, or even mirror envy, but 65ft vs 98ft is a big difference in a battle, especially when your floating high on top a disk that flashes a neon target saying "target me, target me".
But yeah, both engi and magus could use some more re-design than just tweaks to existing skills.

I'll gladly trade throwing arm and bandolier for 15% crit and 50% chance for fragmentation grenade to reapply itself, especially after the patch.

I'll gladly trade 15% crit for 100% increased pet damage and 20% increased AP regen, especially after the patch.

[Zolthar]

Magus here...

We feel the same exact way. These two classes basically exist for no real purpose. It's like their roles are not clear, Mythic just slapped in a few spells at the last second because they never finished them off.

I thought this patch was going to bring some identity to the class. It has only gotten worse. The damage increase is miniscule. The Daemonology line (Chaotic Rift line) is now useless, as we have no way of staying alive up close in battle. Changing line got an increase because of DoT's. Havoc line is still a sub par Sorceress.

What are we here for? Defensive RDPS? If so... what is so defensive about us? We have no more utility spells than other classes do.

[Gisborne]

Eng/Magus are the Cabalists of WAR.

[Crode]

I would just like to throw some ideas out there on the magnet sucking player thing. Its just really odd to all of a sudden fly though the air. If they could do a sort of slide players across the ground at an increasing velocity. That way players can fight it a bit by maneuvering.

Could try to make magnet as a channel skill. Lasts as long as you have AP. It would interrupt casting more than a tool for mass killing.

Possibly used as a magnet grenade? Throw it at the casters and interrupt spell casting. Would that be any use?

[Code2501]

I'll gladly trade throwing arm and bandolier for 15% crit and 50% chance for fragmentation grenade to reapply itself, especially after the patch.

I'll gladly trade 15% crit for 100% increased pet damage and 20% increased AP regen, especially after the patch.

Yep, 15% crit is a nice boost, and endless pand will actually be decent now that the dots scale properly, but youll miss throwing arm when you realise that you constantly get face planted in the no-mans-land between when a sorc can start hitting you (100 ft) and when you can start hitting them back (65 ft). Not to mention the melee you'll be dodging to get off your dots.

Seriously though, I love the +75% radius that engi gets in that line too, its much better than the extra damage on one spell I rarely ever use. But the difference is its not going to make a huge difference between a face plant or another 2 minutes of game play.

If you think it will improve your enjoyment of playing a engi, then I fully support you getting a tactic to boost crits instead of an AP cost reduction. I know for certain that being able to apply my mastereed skills at 98ft will mean I am respawning a lot less often, and as such will improve my enjoyment of my magus.

Right now though I'm focusing on my sorc, on live servers there just more enjoyable to play than disk jockeys.

[Shortstack]

*edited for content*

[ManCaptain]

Speaking of 65ft ranges, Magus 'Changing' line recieved a nice bost to its dot damage, but is still lacking the equivalent range extending tactic that Eng has to make it truly usefull without risking certain focus fire.You get much better "+ crit chance tactic instead of poor "less AP cost tactic" engineers get, so it all evens out.

[ManCaptain]

Yep, 15% crit is a nice boost, and endless pand will actually be decent now that the dots scale properly, but youll miss throwing arm when you realise that you constantly get face planted in the no-mans-land between when a sorc can start hitting you (100 ft) and when you can start hitting them back (65 ft). Not to mention the melee you'll be dodging to get off your dots.
I know how it is...I've played grenadier without throwing arm a lot.
I don't deny I would miss it, it's a great talent, but Magus gets nice stuff that engineer doesn't get. Indigo Fire of Change, the damage shield, crit tactics...
So if hipothetically Magus gets Throwing Arm and Extra Powder equivalents, how does engineer compare to Magus?

Seriously though, I love the +75% radius that engi gets in that line too, its much better than the extra damage on one spell I rarely ever use.
I think that Magus extra damage tactic = Hollow Point, not Extra Powder IMO.

Right now though I'm focusing on my sorc, on live servers there just more enjoyable to play than disk jockeys.
No doubt.

Look, the reason I am against magus getting this stuff is because I don't want the classes to be exactly the same(or, if only Magus gets the good engi stuff, but not the other way around, magus being better).

[Utnapishtim]

You get much better "+ crit chance tactic instead of poor "less AP cost tactic" engineers get, so it all evens out.

The AP cost reduction is really a PvE tactic. It's really very good at that though. I have yet to encounter an "end game" instance boss on which I've run out of AP before killing, and I don't stop spamming damage the entire fight.

[Locnar]

This patch is a huge slap in the face to magus/engineers.

[Code2501]

You get much better "+ crit chance tactic instead of poor "less AP cost tactic" engineers get, so it all evens out.
And as i said up there ^^
More than happy for engi to swap there ap redux with a +crit tactic if it improves the playability of the class.

My reasoning for wanting the extended range is because without it magus ends up dead more often when specced into that line, because 65ft vs 98ft is a big difference in scenarios, open RVR and especially sieges.
Can you apreciate what its like to be specced into a tree as an RDPS and not be able to effectively hit anything in a keep siege, Offense or Defense, because allmost all of your abilities are 65ft range or less? Sure Demo spec cant do much either, but at least once the doors are down the PBAOE strength and additional survivability come into there own.

As a "defensive RDPS" its frustrating as hell that a changing magus have 2 choices in a fight, either wait untill my teams back lines are under attack or actually get into middle of the melee brawl and garruntee that the BW's all point to the obvious tall guy on the glowing disk and focus fire. Two of the three Magus trees are actually skirmisher style, not defensive RDPS, due to the lack of range afforded.

If Mythic insist on changing being stuck at 65ft then they need to give the tree something that lets you fight at 65ft without suffering gravel rash on your face all the time. Either extend the range (ala +50% tactic) or improve the survivablility so you can effectively skirmish at 65ft, and wipe the "defensive RDPS" tag off all official class descriptions, because skirmishers aren't defensive.

[Brigog]

I agree...magus are gimp versions of sorcs after patch.

[Code2501]

I think that Magus extra damage tactic = Hollow Point, not Extra Powder IMO.

I disagree, hallow points affects two abilities not one, and its a seperate tree.
Endless Pandemonium seems to mirror Extra powder imo, and nice as extra powder is, I'm happy for it not to be exclusive to Engi, since we have Endless pand.
its 50% chance to reapply on one spell vs Extra powders chance to hit more targets (+75% size) for two abilities, one is random extra damage the other is situational extra damage depending on terrain and spread of enemy.

We both have a tactic in that tree that is arguable poor, Bandolier whilst good for pve, is not too great in pvp which is what this game is really about.
Infernal pain is extra damage on one ability, which while nice, I don't use it enough to warrant a tactic slot, an interupt with a cast time is needless to say highly situational... It only really works against channeled spells.

That being said, I'm all about equity and parity with engi and magus as mirrors, and fully support a redesign of the ap redux tactic into something more usefull if that is what engineers want to maintain fairness.


Look, the reason I am against magus getting this stuff is because I don't want the classes to be exactly the same(or, if only Magus gets the good engi stuff, but not the other way around, magus being better).
Fully apreciate that, but from my perspective a 15% crit chance adds nothing to my enjoyment of the game compared to a range extension that is 'always on'. I understand the desire to want some flavour differences in mirror classes, but this is more than flavour, it drasticaly impacts the playability of the class. Grenadier masters can choose to be long range, Changing masters are forced to skirmish and lack the same level of versatility in keep sieges.

[Seabee]

I play as an engineer only lvl34, the range tactics for grenades makes greandes viable.

It should be long range rifle, middle range and ae grenades but as it is grenades rule, you can have the range and ae.

I can totally see why a magus thinks its unbalanced compared to them and I totally agree.

[TexMurphy97]

One role that is unused in the class lineup is short range rdps.

A ranged class that hangs just behind the tank line. Just like the melee healers hang just behind the tank line the srrdps classes could hang in that general vicinity.

The way I see it ranged damage should be reverse proportional to range. The closer a rdps is to battle the more exposed to danger he is and hence easier to silence. So standard risk reward ballancing.

A srrdps should have some melee capability just like the WP and DoKs have melee capability while still healers. But main damage should still be from range.

What is shortrange.. Id say somewhere around 30-40 feet.

Im not saying that this role has to be filled by magus or engineer but that role is a gap in the lineup.

[Blackaxe]

A srrdps should have some melee capability just like the WP and DoKs have melee capability while still healers. But main damage should still be from range.

What is shortrange.. Id say somewhere around 30-40 feet.

Im not saying that this role has to be filled by magus or engineer but that role is a gap in the lineup.

I think the class you're looking for on the order side is the Shadow Warrior.Their scout stance allows them to play a little at long range but their uniqueness is more obvious at < 65ft. They even get the skirmisher tactic(engi's get it as well) that give the option of restricting range and increasing crit chance. Everything in the skirmisher line is short to mid range (5-65ft) and if you close with them it'll all be over pretty quickly cos they can burst some pretty nice damage up close and they need it because they only get light armour (though the bonus from assault stance ups them to near medium levels).

At least thats the theory. The reality is that the SW has some issues with damage and playability as things stand. There is some good news in 1.0.5 however time will tell if thats enough to make them viable and if the role you suggest is their personal niche.

On the Destro side, i suppose squig herders are the only real candidate except their power seems to lie elsewhere.

[steelball]

i agree that roles of engineer and magus are not clear.

But i dont think is a new patch effect.
Even in live server the utlity of these classes is the same.

They nerf chaotic rift, but this not chage class role, at all.
They increase dps to trade off chaotic rift nerf, but this not change class role.

Simply class is bad born from the beginning, it is difficult in a balance patch change mechanics of class, there is the risk of creating greater imbalances.

I dont think that in this patch they can make magus and engineer what the people wants.

[Cress]

I think it would be cool if...

If certain Havoc/Rifleman abilities received a bonus to range based on their elevation relative to the target's. Starting from a 1% increase and scaling up to a maximum of a 30% increase. This would give the player an advantage on walls, ramparts, hills, etc and allow him to deter attackers or compensate for lower DPS by initiating combat earlier.

For Changing/Grenadier, more abilities would be ground targeted, and some would be able to turn corners by bouncing off of walls, "seeking" or tracking targets, or rolling down geography aka real life grenades and "smart bombs". This would confer a tactical advantage in places with tight LOS checks, such as hallways, stairways, objectives, zones with varied terrain, tunnels, etc. This spec would be excellent for defending chokepoints and busting entrenchments by bypassing some LOS checks where other RDPS would have to put themselves in greater danger.

For Daemonology/Tinkerer, cooldowns and delves could be adjusted so that these lines shape into powerful point blank area of effect lines, good for close quarters and keep rooms and the like.

With these changes the "Defensive" RDPS would be given more appeal as a finesse class that benefits greatly from interacting with structures and terrain. They would be excellent for holding key areas. This would set them apart from casters and archers very distinctly. The goal would be to give these classes widespread and far-reaching damage and utility, shining especially when they have "set up" in strategic locations.

The RDPS lineup would have their roles as follows-

Casters - Single Target Damage, Damage over Time, Area of Effect Damage
Archers - Long Range Attacks, Melee Attacks, Mobile Short Range Attacks
Defensive - Elevation Defense, Chokepoint Defense, Close Quarters Defense

[PosImpos]

I think it would be cool if...

If certain Havoc/Rifleman abilities received a bonus to range based on their elevation relative to the target's. Starting from a 1% increase and scaling up to a maximum of a 30% increase. This would give the player an advantage on walls, ramparts, hills, etc and allow him to deter attackers or compensate for lower DPS by initiating combat earlier.

For Changing/Grenadier, more abilities would be ground targeted, and some would be able to turn corners by bouncing off of walls, "seeking" or tracking targets, or rolling down geography aka real life grenades and "smart bombs". This would confer a tactical advantage in places with tight LOS checks, such as hallways, stairways, objectives, zones with varied terrain, tunnels, etc. This spec would be excellent for defending chokepoints and busting entrenchments by bypassing some LOS checks where other RDPS would have to put themselves in greater danger.

For Daemonology/Tinkerer, cooldowns and delves could be adjusted so that these lines shape into powerful point blank area of effect lines, good for close quarters and keep rooms and the like.

With these changes the "Defensive" RDPS would be given more appeal as a finesse class that benefits greatly from interacting with structures and terrain. They would be excellent for holding key areas. This would set them apart from casters and archers very distinctly. The goal would be to give these classes widespread and far-reaching damage and utility, shining especially when they have "set up" in strategic locations.

The RDPS lineup would have their roles as follows-

Casters - Single Target Damage, Damage over Time, Area of Effect Damage
Archers - Long Range Attacks, Melee Attacks, Mobile Short Range Attacks
Defensive - Elevation Defense, Chokepoint Defense, Close Quarters Defense

All of that sounds, honestly, awesome. However, it's pretty far fetched. I'm not sure where the line is exactly when it comes to expecting changes to any given class...but I hope that when it comes to the Engineer / Magus we can hope for a bit more than just number tweaking.

[Cress]

Yeah it's fun to think about though :D

[Fischer]

Speaking of 65ft ranges, Magus 'Changing' line recieved a nice bost to its dot damage, but is still lacking the equivalent range extending tactic that Eng has to make it truly usefull without risking certain focus fire.

Totally agreed.

[Dirty Old Man]

Magus here.

THIS IS A STICK UP. GIVE ME YO +50% RANGE TO GRENADIER FOR CHANGING. NOW.

[Phred]

Quite honestly, I'd be happy with anything. I simply don't see my magus as being useful in any situation besides hiding behind a keep wall, and even then I can't hit the ground in most keeps spec'd changing.

Damage is so low that it's incredibly rare to kill anything and defense is non-existent. Short of a pretty serious overhaul, I don't see a future for the class.

[Locnar]

The engineer grenade tree (on test at least) is far and away the best (and only) spec for engineers now.

It would be the same for Magi if only they had a range increaser for their changing tree.

Demonology/Tinker needed the most help (not counting Rift, as we all knew it would be nerfed) and got zero help instead (magi demonology actually got a damage nerf on several of their spells in Demonology).

Seriously why would ANY engineer pick anything but grenades after the patch? Its still sad in a way, as engineers will just be another DPS class. They needed to go more of the way of tinker (support/CC) then BW wannabees.

Magi are even worse off.

Just giving these two classes some DPS bumps was the wrong direction.

[Galli]

Simply put.

This class makes me sick.

I was very excited about playing the engineer class but it's obviously one of the classes Mythic should have cut. They have no clue where they want to go with the engineer or what they're doing with it atm.

Two broken as hell mastery lines. Broken roots. Pretty much we can go AoE petty DoT's and throw down another DoT via turrent. Man....fun class.

The unfortunate part is we are also the least played class and hence the softest voice so we don't get any attention.

PS: This is comming from a RR41 atm

[MasamuneSSX]

I think this is a major point for both of us.

We really do need some sense of identity and purpose. In early beta, the Magus was something completely different to its current form - a weird kind of debuffing DPSer, where almost every spell had some kind of secondary effect.

Many say that the Magingeer role is all about area defence. Sorry but one sole turret really doesn't cause tanks and melee to move away from an area. Granted, the DPS boosts that we will recieve in 1.05 are nice but the majority of us would like to know what direction the Career Development team are taking us in.

Will put a link to this thread on the Magus forums - it's something the community needs an answer on.

[Iodan]

This is kind of a necro-bump from the Magus forums, but... I wish they had stuck with this: http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Magus concept, fleshed it out and mirrored the engineer to that rather than the 2nd rate, goofy DPS scheme we have now. Order and Destro could have had a really nice, ranged debuffer, which I don't think we really get right now. The big DPS classes can debuff their own damage type, which seems kind of counterintuitive to me. If you are gonna have T2 DPS, they have to bring something to the table. I think we ended up T2 DPS, but we don't bring anything unique (aside from EM/CR and the impression that we are free RP).

Which brings me to the next point. The last few days I've been chaning T3 scenarios on live with my Magus. I'd say about 90% of the time, I'm in the top 5 damage along with an engineer. (You engies are crafty lil bascards, I'll tell you) Mind you, there is usually 1 BW/Sorc who just dominates, but still. I don't think damage was really the problem. How the damage is applied - too thin over too much area - well that's a different story. (How I can knock out 60-80k in damage and only get 1 deathblow?) Now, I really really like the damage changes on test, but still - nothing that will make the team say, "Oh good we have a Magus/Engineer. Now we can..."

So... What now? Strip all debuffs from other DPS classes and add them as 2ndary effects to our abilities? Each mastery tree dealing with a different damage type? I don't know. But we're deep enough in at this point, I don't think it's unreasonable to have a total class overhall.

[Xaxas]

Engineers have always been ranged dps. The differences between all the ranged classes is their delivery method (you have turrents, more mid range attacks, and you don't blow yourself up). Shadow Warriors sacrifice damage for mobility and more melee survivability. No path line is going to transform your role, and I'm afraid to inform you there won't be a cc class for a long time, developers hve stated their intentions of being anti-cc. Your roles don't change, but your viability in other areas do.

[Cirwenska]

One realy realy simple fix, give both engi/magus a new fnf turret in its demo/tink line, cost 20% ap per cast and max of 4 or 5 able to be cast with a 1min duration.. aka Anamist!!

Remove the rift/mag and put thsi in it's place, that way only a tinker/demo would cast them and realy be a class feature, allowing both classes to realy dig in and deffend a location..



ps: as for magus/engi being the cabalist of War, lol hell no, cabalists were way more usefull with long range dots and a pet that could crush people in 1v1 or group fights...Go Go Juggy!!!

[Nightbringer1]

I would just like to throw some ideas out there on the magnet sucking player thing. Its just really odd to all of a sudden fly though the air. If they could do a sort of slide players across the ground at an increasing velocity. That way players can fight it a bit by maneuvering.

Could try to make magnet as a channel skill. Lasts as long as you have AP. It would interrupt casting more than a tool for mass killing.

Possibly used as a magnet grenade? Throw it at the casters and interrupt spell casting. Would that be any use?

Magus can already ae interupt with Surge of Insanity, which happens to be far less powerful then Bright Wizards insta cast ae silence.

[Nightbringer1]

One realy realy simple fix, give both engi/magus a new fnf turret in its demo/tink line, cost 20% ap per cast and max of 4 or 5 able to be cast with a 1min duration.. aka Anamist!!

Remove the rift/mag and put thsi in it's place, that way only a tinker/demo would cast them and realy be a class feature, allowing both classes to realy dig in and deffend a location..



ps: as for magus/engi being the cabalist of War, lol hell no, cabalists were way more usefull with long range dots and a pet that could crush people in 1v1 or group fights...Go Go Juggy!!!

Made a suggestion similiar to this in the Magus section:
Crazy idea incoming for Deamonology spec: ... (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2652958#post2652958)

[vcortis]

I think it's fairly obvious that the Magus and Engineers role at the moment is Ranged DPS. It's always been my understanding through out beta that the developers intended it to be a more defensive class that could lock down other players. I remember one developer saying something along the lines of...

Melee DPS and Tanks should think twice about charging a group of Bright Wizards if there are a group of engineers there defending them.

Is this true? Absolutley not for either the Magus or Engineer, both classes would intimidate melee more if they were another BW/Sorc and could actually down the melee before they got to them.

Speaking from a Magus point of view I think with a reworking of the mastery trees and some tweaking of spells that the Magus's role could easily be defined. If we focus on shutting down the abilities of other classes and being an area denial class. Each line can be reworked slightly altering current spells and moving some around, tactics should reflect each mastery and be reworked.

Take the Havoc Mastery for instance. The spells in this line are primarily long range implying that perhaps this line would be well suited for taking on enemy healers/rdps. Perils of Warp fits this theme perfectly. Likewise surge of insanity should be moved into this line and have its range increased to 100. Bolt of Change can stay as a heavy nuke to finish off runners. Firestorm should be changed into an AoE DD that debuffs those hit by it and increases their build timers (taking longer to cast their spells). Demonic Resistance should be moved into this Mastery as well to focus on the Anti-Caster theme. Mutating Blue Fire should deal damage and debuff the targets stats (toughness/wisdom/intelligence/ballistics etc.) so that they deal less damage and take more from your melee rushing them.

The Changing Mastery on the other hand should focus on Anti-Melee. Spells in this line can stay a mix between long range and medium range. Spells like Glean Magic (to debuff resistances) and Warping Blast (to knock melee away from squishies) are all anti-melee. Withered Soul should be moved into this line to remove the disrupt chances of melee classes so your casters can nuke them down. Aegis of the Orange Fire should move into this mastery and be castable on others so you can give a damage shield and increase the survivability of a caster getting melee assist trained. Indigo Fire of Change should have a snare component added to it increasing the time it takes for melee to reach squishies and giving allies a chance to retreat. Seed of Chaos should have an additional AP/drain component on it and when it runs it's course drain the AP of enemies around the initial target, this could be devastating to melee assist trains, drasitically reducing their damage by whiping out the enitre groups AP.

The Daemonology Mastery should focus on Area Denial. Spells like Daemonic Infestation, Agonizing Torrent, and Chaotic Rift belong here. PBAoE spells and GTAoE spells should be a strong point of this line. Dissolving Mist should move into this line. In addition new powerful spells like a GTAoE -healing% (give -75% healing to an area and I garuntee no one stays there). A Tactic that allows you to summon 1 of each horror should exist. The combination of GTAoE can put pressure on your enemy from afar and PBAoE pressure up close, with chaotic rift allowing you to move enemies into areas they don't want to be!

By altering a few spells and switching around some abilities you can easily see how a definitive role can be made for the Magus. One might say that masteries like this could potential make the magus too powerful versus all classes, but keeping in mind that many abilities are unlocked via mastery paths and you can't have them all leaves the Magus to specialize in one area or a little in all. Thus bringing a few Magi to a Warband is a great idea! The havoc Magus could be causing Chaos to their Casters, the Changing Magus being a pain in the a$$ to their Melee, and the Daemonology bringing the utility that makes it equally dangerous to both Melee and Casters with its PBAoE and GTAoE.

I'm sure that something similar can be accomplished with the Engineer class as well. This took me all but 10 minutes to think about to come up with and I'm sure Mythic Developers can do better! Don't leave the Magus and Engineer as a RDPS knock off class!

[lordofbones]

Well, we can wish at least.

[Arkayne]

Eng/Magus are the Cabalists of WAR.

I disagree, my Cabalist rocked and their pets could move and be buffed to make them pretty mean out on the battle field..., not to mention 5 varities. Also nice lifetaps in body making them pretty good considering their dps wasn't as good as the wizards or even theurgist air nukes.

[Alluvian_Est-Endrati]

While patch 1.05 is bringing some relief to the Magus in terms of damage adjustment where it was much needed, it is not a comprehensive career adjustment like many people would have otherwise hoped. The next thing I think that needs to be focused on for this career, outside of some general tweaks here and there to performance, is the utility of the career in general. Issues like the Range of the Path of Changing, missing utility as compared to the Engineer (and some Engineers wanting crit improvements, etc.) are things I hope get seriously looked at in the future.

Hopefully path 1.1 will have some additional adjustments of this nature, all we can do really is articulate our thoughts and opinions (and suggestions for improvement) and hope they are acted upon in a timely fashion.

[MasterM]

I think it's fairly obvious that the Magus and Engineers role at the moment is Ranged DPS. It's always been my understanding through out beta that the developers intended it to be a more defensive class that could lock down other players. I remember one developer saying something along the lines of...

Melee DPS and Tanks should think twice about charging a group of Bright Wizards if there are a group of engineers there defending them.

Is this true? Absolutley not for either the Magus or Engineer, both classes would intimidate melee more if they were another BW/Sorc and could actually down the melee before they got to them.

Speaking from a Magus point of view I think with a reworking of the mastery trees and some tweaking of spells that the Magus's role could easily be defined. If we focus on shutting down the abilities of other classes and being an area denial class. Each line can be reworked slightly altering current spells and moving some around, tactics should reflect each mastery and be reworked.

Take the Havoc Mastery for instance. The spells in this line are primarily long range implying that perhaps this line would be well suited for taking on enemy healers/rdps. Perils of Warp fits this theme perfectly. Likewise surge of insanity should be moved into this line and have its range increased to 100. Bolt of Change can stay as a heavy nuke to finish off runners. Firestorm should be changed into an AoE DD that debuffs those hit by it and increases their build timers (taking longer to cast their spells). Demonic Resistance should be moved into this Mastery as well to focus on the Anti-Caster theme. Mutating Blue Fire should deal damage and debuff the targets stats (toughness/wisdom/intelligence/ballistics etc.) so that they deal less damage and take more from your melee rushing them.

The Changing Mastery on the other hand should focus on Anti-Melee. Spells in this line can stay a mix between long range and medium range. Spells like Glean Magic (to debuff resistances) and Warping Blast (to knock melee away from squishies) are all anti-melee. Withered Soul should be moved into this line to remove the disrupt chances of melee classes so your casters can nuke them down. Aegis of the Orange Fire should move into this mastery and be castable on others so you can give a damage shield and increase the survivability of a caster getting melee assist trained. Indigo Fire of Change should have a snare component added to it increasing the time it takes for melee to reach squishies and giving allies a chance to retreat. Seed of Chaos should have an additional AP/drain component on it and when it runs it's course drain the AP of enemies around the initial target, this could be devastating to melee assist trains, drasitically reducing their damage by whiping out the enitre groups AP.

The Daemonology Mastery should focus on Area Denial. Spells like Daemonic Infestation, Agonizing Torrent, and Chaotic Rift belong here. PBAoE spells and GTAoE spells should be a strong point of this line. Dissolving Mist should move into this line. In addition new powerful spells like a GTAoE -healing% (give -75% healing to an area and I garuntee no one stays there). A Tactic that allows you to summon 1 of each horror should exist. The combination of GTAoE can put pressure on your enemy from afar and PBAoE pressure up close, with chaotic rift allowing you to move enemies into areas they don't want to be!

By altering a few spells and switching around some abilities you can easily see how a definitive role can be made for the Magus. One might say that masteries like this could potential make the magus too powerful versus all classes, but keeping in mind that many abilities are unlocked via mastery paths and you can't have them all leaves the Magus to specialize in one area or a little in all. Thus bringing a few Magi to a Warband is a great idea! The havoc Magus could be causing Chaos to their Casters, the Changing Magus being a pain in the a$$ to their Melee, and the Daemonology bringing the utility that makes it equally dangerous to both Melee and Casters with its PBAoE and GTAoE.

I'm sure that something similar can be accomplished with the Engineer class as well. This took me all but 10 minutes to think about to come up with and I'm sure Mythic Developers can do better! Don't leave the Magus and Engineer as a RDPS knock off class!
You sir probably made the best proposal ever that makes this class defensive not by bunkering down but by making them able to defend other players (mainly casters) and still not cutting into tank's turf. Also this change doesn't require much alteration to class making it possible to implement.

Make sure to send it to Mythic via Feedback tool.

[Asmerv]

Hundreds of excellent suggestions were made since launch. Hard working people put up lots of compiled issues threads filled with bugs and issues and we don't even get bugfixes. When exactly do you expect a class overhaul?

I hope it comes around sometime before all T4 people stop farming Serpent's Passage and actually work towards sieging a city. I want to be defined and useful when that happens.

Both the class overhaul and the end of SP farm seem miles away... We'll see which one comes first. I'll return to getting 1100 critted by dots now.

Blah, so much negativity.. I know you guys at Mythic are working hard. I know you cannot change and balance everything in one patch. That's why I'm bumping this post with a rant-like post and that's why I will keep playing and subscribing 'till we reach the promised land.

We love you!

[praecantator]

You sir probably made the best proposal ever that makes this class defensive not by bunkering down but by making them able to defend other players (mainly casters) and still not cutting into tank's turf. Also this change doesn't require much alteration to class making it possible to implement.

Make sure to send it to Mythic via Feedback tool.
Heh. *I'm* sending to Mythic via Feedback (with all appropriate credit). Very well done, sir...

[Zolthar]

Lack of clear role for both these classes and lack of response from Mythic since Day 1.

[Foofmonger]

It really isn't hard to figure out the roles of these classes/specs.

Rifle/Havoc = Long range single target DPS + defensive abilities (for magus, thats a pet, daemon armor, infestation, etc...)

Changing/Grenade = Mid range AoE DPS + a hit/run playstyle (get close enough, toss a few spells/grenades at any enemy group, fall back to defensive position, repeat).

Daemon/Tinker = Close range PBAoE DPS + a pseudo-MDPS playstyle (get up close and personal and deal damage to everyone around you, much like a Monstrosity marauder), use Rift/Magnet not as an ability to grab an entire team to you so your team can AoE them down, but as an ability to target a few people out of a zerg, so you can aoe them down (such as flanking an enemy force to the side, grabbing 2-3 healers with Rift, and aoeing them down/CCing them while the rest of your force rips through their main zerg because you just took out 50%+ of their healers from the fight).

IMO, these are thinking mans classes. I know that when I'm not paying attention and actively thinking about what I'm going to do next, and after that, I'm not playing well. You just can't rush up and mash buttons without a plan.

[Zolthar]

It really isn't hard to figure out the roles of these classes/specs.

Rifle/Havoc = Long range single target DPS + defensive abilities (for magus, thats a pet, daemon armor, infestation, etc...)

Changing/Grenade = Mid range AoE DPS + a hit/run playstyle (get close enough, toss a few spells/grenades at any enemy group, fall back to defensive position, repeat).

Daemon/Tinker = Close range PBAoE DPS + a pseudo-MDPS playstyle (get up close and personal and deal damage to everyone around you, much like a Monstrosity marauder), use Rift/Magnet not as an ability to grab an entire team to you so your team can AoE them down, but as an ability to target a few people out of a zerg, so you can aoe them down (such as flanking an enemy force to the side, grabbing 2-3 healers with Rift, and aoeing them down/CCing them while the rest of your force rips through their main zerg because you just took out 50%+ of their healers from the fight).

IMO, these are thinking mans classes. I know that when I'm not paying attention and actively thinking about what I'm going to do next, and after that, I'm not playing well. You just can't rush up and mash buttons without a plan.

Nice and easy description, but neither of these definitions work.

Rifle/Havoc - Long range/Single Target... ok. But the damage we do is not much if you are speccing for this. If you want this playstyle go play a BW/Sorc. But you say it has utility and defensive capabilities? Utility... no. Not anymore than other classes. Where are the defensive capabilities? A pet? They don't do much. Daemonic armor? Ok it helps, needs some tweaking to actually last as a buff rather than hits.

Changing/Grenade - AoE DPS... hit and run. Not possible if you can't get in close distance enough to cast (see Magus' changing problem).

Daemon/Tinker - Close range PBAoE DPS. Absolutely does not work for a light armor wearing, low HP, non tanking class. Sorry. This line doesn't work unless there is something put into it to give the caster a boost to his survival while using the skills.

[PinkysBrain]

Changing/Grenade - AoE DPS... hit and run. Not possible if you can't get in close distance enough to cast (see Magus' changing problem).
I think the only alternative to just upping the range to near 100 feet (like with the engineer) would be to give you guys a 5 second 75% dodge/disrupt chance buff on something like a 30 second cooldown ...

That should let you get in close throw 2 medium range attacks and have a decent chance of getting out alive.

[Earlydawn]

I see the turret classes as "utility DPS".. give them more utility!

[Tuco]

Its a skirmishers role. We move in throw some things down and we back off fast.

But, how are we supposed to get into dungeon groups? we dont. Anything we can do other do it better. We can aoe just as good as other classes but our DD is laughable. Plus if we are rushed we buckle like a belt. So group utility is not there.

But the role of an Engineer now is Skirmisher.

[MasterM]

Its a skirmishers role. We move in throw some things down and we back off fast.

But, how are we supposed to get into dungeon groups? we dont. Anything we can do other do it better. We can aoe just as good as other classes but our DD is laughable. Plus if we are rushed we buckle like a belt. So group utility is not there.

But the role of an Engineer now is Skirmisher.
Wich is a problem because skirmishers in WAR should be Squig Hearder and Shadow Warrior.

Engi and Magus are skirmishers without real tools for it. Also because they are skirmishers it's a failure in design because it's not defensive.

[Limper]

Send feedback about our roles being undefined please. Send feedback send it send it!!!! The more of us that do so, the more likely our voices will be heard.

I love this game, personally, and I llove being a Magus in PvE - - - but the thing is, most of the time I like living longer or doing more damage more...this whole "turret" thing with an almost useless turret is kind of pointless in RvR, no?

[Oberanoth]

Is this thread basically "Oh my god! I don't know what I am! AHHHH!"

I've known what I was since day one. I'm squishy as hell, but I can effectively put a chink in the chain of any characters plan of action. I may not consistently do as much damage per second as a BW or a Sorc, but I have a lot more interesting ways to deal with individual enemies.

If you want a clear-cut definition for classes, this really isn't the best game to look at. Hell, we have melee characters that are healers for morks sake...

If I had to squeeze my class into some definitive box, it would be Survivablity/Control Caster. It may not be the most obvious control, but almost all of our spells force whatever player we throw them at, to do something different.

See that BW nuking your friend? Slap a perils on them, and insanity, and just go to town. Almost 90% of the time, the BW will focus on you instead, and if your friend has his act togeather, you two can take him down before he can do any real harm. In more ways then one, were the anti-caster caster. I make healers and BW's lives much more dificult, and if I force them to kill me instead of one of my healers, I've done my job.

[MasterM]

Sorry but you are wrong. You don't have more survivability outside Daemonic Armor and wounds buff if speced for it.

Your control is limited to:

Surge of Insanity (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8475) - Only really realiable use is interrupting channeling spells and it has 10 seconds cooldown.

Warping Blast (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8483) - Very short KB. 10 sec cooldown.

Daemonic Infestation - AoE knockdown. Tricky to target. 15 sec cooldown.


You can also add Chaotic Rift (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8499) but huge majority of Magi don't even consider it viable spell anymore.

And all of this in 65ft range making you run through and stay in 100-50ft killzone to start applying your "control" skills. No way that's defensive.

PotW is great but it's not as original as you think. Marauders have similar abilities against both casters and melee and their skills don't require you to spec for them. Also BW's have their own dehex and even when you apply 2 of you instant 100ft DoTs on top of PotW he has 1/3rd chance to remove it.

[PinkysBrain]

Any engineer will make a caster blob better by being there in RvR unless you are just steam rolling the opposition. A 2 second AoE stun, 5 second AoE knockdown an AoE build time increase ... especially after the root nerf the engineer is the king of CC.

Magus a little less so.

[Seabee]

Engineer cc, well the the 5 second knockdown is the turret destroyer I almost never get this of anymore, turrets die very fast. If you think you can run in and use it so do engineers die really fast. The disorient I have never seen work it works of a tactic and requires a landmine to go of. If this ever works on destruction please let me know.

Which leaves us with an interupt grenade, knockback grenade and the knockback morale ability. Root after 1.05 I am thinking of removing from my toolbar its that good. Dont think it will save you it wont.

Engineers are very sub par if we are meant to be cc classes. If you mean against pve then you run into the second issue, hero is immune.

[Taonis]

I've always seen the Engineer most effective as a character for forcing the casting line to move when at a range. Concussion grenades, area DoTs, napalm grenades, all of the engineer's grenadier line seems to be primarily concerned with pushing people about and changing their focus from casting heavy hitting channels and heals to moving or just trying to get on solid ground.

That said, I can understand why Magi wouldn't be able to reflect that with their more strict, hard 65 foot rule. It's not impossible for an engineer to be effective at that range, but it's more obvious when a guy on a disc or a little meatball runs out towards the enemy casting line.

Also, at least from the engineer standpoint, it still casts a giant questionmark over Rifleman and Tinker. Rifleman's supposed to be long range, single target, long cast damage, and yet with Throwing Arm, that range advantage quickly goes away, and the single target damage isn't much to write home about either. Tinker's probably worst off, since it primarily focuses on close range damage and yet most of those skills aren't any higher damage than grenades, even with Expert Skirmisher.

[Reymusjr]

I think Engineer's more than Magus' in this problem suffer the brunt of where their class fits in. It's a dead horse, but look at Bright Wizards, in skills, spells and their respective trees, they have abilites to root, knockdown(back?), a healing debuff, and a buff to their team, as Sorcerors also have.

Engineer's and Magi are supposed to be utility/support/control classes right?

So why do a myriad of classes which have defined roles get the SAME abilities and in some cases BETTER abilites than these two?

I know everyone loves their defenses with knockbacks and knockdowns, but wouldn't giving these two classes specifically things like the control, healing debuffs, and group buffs be more worthwhile than just bumping their miniscule dps to become still moderate?

I hope the developers listen to the people who play these classes day to day, and know that if they create defined roles of what you're supposed to be doing, with leeway in the trees, then everyone would be happier for it.

Bright Wizards and Sorcerors for example SHOULD be primary ranged damage dealers, but with next to no defense, i.e. no roots, knockdowns, and should have to rely on their team and the defensive ranged, Engineers and Magi to make sure they're protected.

[kjetil]

So why do a myriad of classes which have defined roles get the SAME abilities and in some cases BETTER abilites than these two?

I think many MMOs are making a mistake with this: heavy DPS classes get all the utility toys too. Best example I can think of is the hunter (only real range nuker) in Lotro, which has a widely-envied fast travel ability. Same goes for warlocks and mages in WoW (teleport/summoning).

In my opinion the support skills should go to the support classes. I wouldn't deny BWs/Sorcs means of escape, but a single pbaoe root that's subject to resists/DR/immunities should be enough, perhaps coupled with a ranged snare. As it stands the only thing that makes engies/magi shine in CC department is the fact that BWs/Sorcs usually don't bother with their CC tools apart from saving their own skin when threatened.

If most of the CC was in the hands of engy/magus, I don't think the classes would need damage buffs. Some work on the trees making all of them viable (long range single target/mid range medium aoe/powerful pbaoe) and fixing the skill coefficents (adding 100 BS/int should give more boost than 2dmg / dot tick) and the classes would be much better off. And you have a class role right there: protecting the back line or bauble carrier while peppering enemies when you have time. IF the heaviest nukers in the game didn't get the same CC tools and more.