Marauder vs. Witch Hunter!!!

[pooter26]

I thought the Marauder vs. Witch Elf thread was fun so heres a new one to talk about marauder fans. Against another melee dps.

I personally think marauder would own a witch elf. he gets stabbed, while blade is in him grabs WE, then chops her good mutation or not. Not sure about witch hunter tho.

Please dont look at this from lore standpoint, the fact that marauder vs Witch Elf isn't lore friendly means we can do away with it for these Duel threads.

If i had to choose id say marauder would win( mainly because i like them). As big burly Vikings it just seems like they can take more dmg than other classes idk and they can one hit anything except tanks.

[WarMachine]

I'd have to go with the WitchHunter on this one, the Marauder is a close range fighter, and WHs can use pistols.... and I hear they're damn good with them.

Just remeber, a bullet sounds the same in all lore....

[Jeralin]

All that comes to mind is "Indiana Jones vs Guy With Sword". =o

[sualty]

Im on the same boat as WarMachine. POP, dead. One of the witch hunters bullets or thowing daggers are going to hit home plate. Only chance the Marauder has in this situation is if he turns his arm into a shield, because if that Marauder get in smashing range, that Witch Hunter is going to have a messed up hat.

[Foofmonger]

Hmm.. would depend on how well bullets could penetrate through mutated skin.

Also, if the marauder wasn't mutated, the Witch Hunter might not initially attack from long range, and might realize what was happening a lil too late.

[WarMachine]

Hmm.. would depend on how well bullets could penetrate through mutated skin.

Also, if the marauder wasn't mutated, the Witch Hunter might not initially attack from long range, and might realize what was happening a lil too late.
First, he's a witch hunter, he knows ways of killing choas spawn. He has many things at his disposel... He is even traned to expect the unpredicatability of chaos. Lore wise, he hunts marauder like people, that IS his job.

BTW, even unchanged, you could still tell he's a north man.

[Foofmonger]

First, he's a witch hunter, he knows ways of killing choas spawn. He has many things at his disposel... He is even traned to expect the unpredicatability of chaos. Lore wise, he hunts marauder like people, that his job.

If you don't specifify the ways or what he has at his disposal, then the argument is pretty much conjecture.

I'm not saying your wrong, im saying, explain in more detail how literally, he would take out a marauder.

edit: I know, but he might want to capture/interogate him or something. If he shoots the guy in the leg, walks up to him, and starts doing/saying whatever, he might get a big bone spike through his chest.

[WarMachine]

If you don't specifify the ways or what he has at his disposal, then the argument is pretty much conjecture.

I'm not saying your wrong, im saying, explain in more detail how literally, he would take out a marauder.

edit: I know, but he might want to capture/interogate him or something. If he shoots the guy in the leg, walks up to him, and starts doing/saying whatever, he might get a big bone spike through his chest.
The offical descrition should be enough to say what he has at his disposel
"The Witch Hunter is a tireless foe of Chaos, dark magic and witchery of all kinds. As the taint of Chaos continues to spread and more people are drawn to the dark arts, the Witch Hunters’ role has become increasingly important to the Empire. Fast, cunning and deadly, they dispense merciless judgment upon any who serve Chaos

Wields off-hand pistols and main-hand rapiers, swords and torches.
Ornamented with other tools of their craft such as stakes, daggers, relics, chains and emblems of the Cult of Sigmar or the Empire. "
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Empire/Careers/WitchHunter.php

And being a mercalist hunter of chaos leads me to believe once he thinks your chaos, he don't actually need to take you prisioner, thats usually saved to simple folk he just doen't like.
It just boils down that the marauder won't win every fight lore wise. You just have to remmeber, lore wise, he's the anti-marauder.

[Foofmonger]

The offical descrition should be enough to say what he has at his disposel
"The Witch Hunter is a tireless foe of Chaos, dark magic and witchery of all kinds. As the taint of Chaos continues to spread and more people are drawn to the dark arts, the Witch Hunters’ role has become increasingly important to the Empire. Fast, cunning and deadly, they dispense merciless judgment upon any who serve Chaos

Wields off-hand pistols and main-hand rapiers, swords and torches.
Ornamented with other tools of their craft such as stakes, daggers, relics, chains and emblems of the Cult of Sigmar or the Empire. "
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Empire/Careers/WitchHunter.php

And being a mercalist hunter of chaos leads me to believe once he thinks your chaos, he don't actually need to take you prisioner, thats usually saved to simple folk he just doen't like.
It just boils down that the marauder won't win every fight lore wise. You just have to remmeber, lore wise, he's the anti-marauder.

I'm not very convinced, and Ive read the official description before. However, dispatching chaos minions, and being able to kill stronger chaos opponents isn't the same thing. Even with all his "expertise", he wouldn't stand a chance against something like a chosen.

Also, the marauder being a "mere human", was detremential vs the WE. How is this not a con for the WE? He is far more a normal human then a marauder is.

[pooter26]

if your going to assume that the witch hunter is trained to do this, you have to assume the marauder is not just some run off the mill warrior. every character player in the game is going to be considered some of the best of the career you play, so the marauder in the fight will be cunning like Tzeetch as well as viscous smart and enduring. Witch hunters are good yeah, but just looking at a marauder theres no way a withc hunter can take a beating like him. The only shot that would kill mrauder is to the head and they have plate helmets that cover their entire head. Being the bearer of a body that has been raised in frigid cold in barbarian armor, trained with heavy weapons and mutations alike and possibly mutatiing body during coimbat just seems like marauder could take a few shots and then WTFPWN the witch hunter

only melee dps i think can take a marauder is a choppa , maybe. because marauders are way smarter right?

[Taurth]

Personally I think a Marauder.

Witch Hunters are trained to seek out and execute followers of Chaos in the Empire. They aren't usually on the front line of a war. Therefor I think a Witch Hunter would be overwhelmed with having to fight a born and bred warrior whose survived in an unbelievably harsh environment, with possible mutations to boot.

[Gaazruk]

It would depend on the distance, at long range the Marauder would be dead before he came near the WH, but at close range the WH is mainly effective with positional attacks so I would say the marauder would win in melee range.

[Shadow5ight]

It would depend on the distance, at long range the Marauder would be dead before he came near the WH, but at close range the WH is mainly effective with positional attacks so I would say the marauder would win in melee range.

i agree with this mostly, but WH will have tricks up his sleeve(i think i spelled it wrong lol) i dont know to much about lore but they seem like fans of not dying and look like they are quite cunning, i think its the hat, could hide something of use?

[sualty]

Well, after reading that description a ways up about how the witch hunter has an off hand gun and main hand rapier... A witch hunter like that vs my previous views of a marauder = marauder every time.

My original interpretation of the witch hunter was based off him having like a real nice rifle to long range with, then dual wield pistols for closer range and a mini dehringer just in case... Now I'm definitely dissapointed that they are going to be severely melee damage. Guess it didnt click with me that the range dps of the empire would be the bright wizard...

[Foofmonger]

Well, after reading that description a ways up about how the witch hunter has an off hand gun and main hand rapier... A witch hunter like that vs my previous views of a marauder = marauder every time.

My original interpretation of the witch hunter was based off him having like a real nice rifle to long range with, then dual wield pistols for closer range and a mini dehringer just in case... Now I'm definitely dissapointed that they are going to be severely melee damage. Guess it didnt click with me that the range dps of the empire would be the bright wizard...

It's the empires meele dps silly.

They do have a lil bit of range tho, in-game.

[Fusko]

Tzeentch wins.

[Krulltak]

The Witch Hunter, definitely.

While the Marauder is probably the more brutal of the two, the Witch Hunter has A- a gun, and a point blank shot will kill the Marauder and B- has Sigmarite blessed objects meant specifically for the desecration of Chaos powers.


It's a 1 versus 1 fight, aye? Well Marauders are meant for fighting in large scale combat, not being ambushed in the middle of nowhere by a Witch Hunter that can go "BOOM! HEADSHOT!"

Hunting Chaos is their business, and business is good.

[sualty]

He's not using a 357 ... I thought he would have atleast had a rifle, instead he gets a single shot pistol ... honestly, that things just going to piss the marauder off. All he has to do is run at the WH and hold us his pos arm and absorb the damage (which would probably cause it to mutate into something more useful). Then it becomes a battle of brute force, gg'

[WarMachine]

He's not using a 357 ... I thought he would have atleast had a rifle, instead he gets a single shot pistol ... honestly, that things just going to piss the marauder off. All he has to do is run at the WH and hold us his pos arm and absorb the damage (which would probably cause it to mutate into something more useful). Then it becomes a battle of brute force, gg'
I guess you've never seen the damage that a small ball round could do, have you? I've seen a black powder pistol blow a 2x4 in half with ease. A 357 would just put a hole (although large one) through the board.

[Taurth]

The Witch Hunter, definitely.

While the Marauder is probably the more brutal of the two, the Witch Hunter has A- a gun, and a point blank shot will kill the Marauder and B- has Sigmarite blessed objects meant specifically for the desecration of Chaos powers.


It's a 1 versus 1 fight, aye? Well Marauders are meant for fighting in large scale combat, not being ambushed in the middle of nowhere by a Witch Hunter that can go "BOOM! HEADSHOT!"

Hunting Chaos is their business, and business is good.Krulltak, I'm interested in hearing your opinions on which classes a Choppa would win and loose against. ;)

[sualty]

ya if he gets a good shot off id say he can pull this off,but if the marauder uses his arm to shield him he could pull it off. not to ention the random accuracy of old weapons like that he gets his shot off and then gets chopped

[Throwhemon]

I personally think marauder would own a witch elf. he gets stabbed, while blade is in him grabs WE, then chops her good mutation or not. Not sure about witch hunter tho.


dude, you totaly stole my post. Its cool though, after i posted that i saw alot of others that said basicly the same thing lol

If your going by fluff then lets breack it down.

maurader: Norsmen vikings that are gifted by tzeentch and have no regard for their personal well being. They will fight untill they can fight anymore (think monty python's black black knight:D), even with poison runningt hrough thier veins and metal stuck in thier flesh they will not stop. Add mutations and the weapon he uses normaly and you have a fearsom warrior.

Witch elf: Evil women that have been training for years to be the best at killing men, through poison and dagger. They have elven speed, agility and dexterity, they attack fast with poisoned blades and take drugs to increase thier tolerance to pain and attacks.

Maurader and WE fight: goes something like this.

Maurader mutates (for all intensive reasons something simple) his left arm into a clever of bone, Witch elf dashs in while the mutation goes through and stabs the maurader poisoning and inflicting fatal wound to his midsection. Maurdar grabs the witch elf's arm and pushes the dagger deeper so its harder to pull out and smiles as he lobs off her head. The maurader picks up the head and trusts it into the air and thanks tzeetch for his blessing, then pulls the dagger out and mutates what ever organs were injured but still might die because of the poison.

If it was nurgle that he worshiped the poison would just make him stronger.


haveing no sense of self preservation usualy makes a more pwerful weapon then training and speed.

-my two cents

[Krulltak]

ya if he gets a good shot off id say he can pull this off,but if the marauder uses his arm to shield him he could pull it off. not to ention the random accuracy of old weapons like that he gets his shot off and then gets chopped




Even a Chosen can be brought down by a point blank shot, and a Chosen could easily slay any marauder, and dozens of normal men.

No matter what you think the Marauder can mutate into, it's truly very limited, and random at that. And the main advantage that the Witch Hunter has is his ability to dispell any Chaotic energy the Marauder has in the first place.

Krulltak, I'm interested in hearing your opinions on which classes a Choppa would win and loose against. :wink:Judging from the fluff, in a 1v1 battle I'd say:

Usually Loses to: Engineer, Ironbreaker, Runepriest, Bright Wizard, Archmage, Magus, Chosen.

Has advantage over: Any Imperial Knight, Witch Hunter, Marauder, Zealot.

Roughly more equal against: Hammerer, Warrior Priest, Swordmaster, Witch Elf, Black Guard.

This all varies and is often conditional of course.


maurader: Norsmen vikings that are gifted by tzeentch and have no regard for their personal well being. They will fight untill they can fight anymore (think monty python's black black knight:grin:), even with poison runningt hrough thier veins and metal stuck in thier flesh they will not stop. Add mutations and the weapon he uses normaly and you have a fearsom warrior.Wrong. Horribly horribly wrong. Read more fluff, Jack.

A Chosen is a lot tougher then a marauder, yet a single bullet can kill him. Therefore, the Marauder, who's mutations are usually offensive and is two chaotic ranks of power under the Chosen, will die...... very quickly, unless he can manage to keep up with a Witch Elf's speed and tentacle he head off.

[Garwin Graves]

Hmm.. would depend on how well bullets could penetrate through mutated skin.

All this jazz about marauders mutating skin irks me slightly... they're not the tank class, they're DPS. Ergo they're not walking fortresses of impenetrable pain, and destruction. (Sorry man, don't mean to sound like I'm jumping on you... but I couldn't bite my tongue much longer on the subject.)

As others have stated... The Witch Hunter, His business is killing chaos and heretics... and business is good.

[Garwin Graves]

Judging from the fluff, in a 1v1 battle I'd say:

Usually Loses to: Engineer, Ironbreaker, Runepriest, Bright Wizard, Archmage, Magus, Chosen.

Has advantage over: Any Imperial Knight, Witch Hunter, Marauder, Zealot.

Roughly more equal against: Hammerer, Warrior Priest, Swordmaster, Witch Elf, Black Guard.

This all varies and is often conditional of course.


You left out "udduh choppa wid bigga choppa"

[Taurth]

Judging from the fluff, in a 1v1 battle I'd say:

Usually Loses to: Engineer, Ironbreaker, Runepriest, Bright Wizard, Archmage, Magus, Chosen.

Has advantage over: Any Imperial Knight, Witch Hunter, Marauder, Zealot.

Roughly more equal against: Hammerer, Warrior Priest, Swordmaster, Witch Elf, Black Guard.

This all varies and is often conditional of course.

Okay, question no.2:

What DPS class do you think the Marauder would be able to beat or would loose to?

I get the impression that you feel they're inferior because they're human, and as you said they'd loose to a Witch Hunter, so basically the weakest DPS class "WAR Lorewise" in the game?

[Krulltak]

Okay, question no.2:

What DPS class do you think the Marauder would be able to beat or would loose to?

I get the impression that you feel they're inferior because they're human, and as you said they'd loose to a Witch Hunter, so basically the weakest DPS class "WAR Lorewise" in the game?

Considering they're basically just a marauder who can turn his arms into animal parts(they really should have chosen the Ulfwearaner instead:(), and the randomness of his mutations, in most conditions he would lose a 1v1 fight. .

However, I have been re-evaluating my thoughts on the subject and have thought more along the lines of: This "elite" Marauder is a lot like a squig on the tabletop. Very strong offensively, but lacks the defense of a Black Orc. Therefore, he is sort of the "break them on the charge of die horribly" archetype, when going to fight

So with the right mutation, seeing as how a Chaotic tentacle can pierce Chaos Armor, the Marauder can very well bring down a lot of other warriors, but being so random and being virtually unarmored he would be like a Madboy in 40k, only working on Tzeentch's proper dice roll. ;) so to speak....




The Witch Hunter and Warrior Priest definitely have an advantage over most things Chaos, save for a Chosen Knight or naything higher.

[sualty]

Even a Chosen can be brought down by a point blank shot, and a Chosen could easily slay any marauder, and dozens of normal men.

No matter what you think the Marauder can mutate into, it's truly very limited, and random at that. And the main advantage that the Witch Hunter has is his ability to dispell any Chaotic energy the Marauder has in the first place.




I disagree. A point blank shot isnt going through plate armor with a mail undershirt. Aint gonna happen. Maybe from a .45 or .44, more than likely a .50 but not a ball from a single shot black powder musket pistol. Especially once a shield gets factored in there. . . I think you miscalculated that one, Unless I was uninformed that chosen armor had been exchanged for tin foil.

As far as the marauder fight goes; It doesn't matter what he mutates his arm into, he just blocks a shot with whatever it is and beats the WH down with his main hand. Not to mention, the marauder is mutated pretty close to all his vital organs. And if he's as mindless and stupid as you make him out to be, he probably wouldnt need a brain. If that's where you were planning on shooting.

Again, if the witch hunter had a m4, he would win everytime, but he's dealing with a single shot musket pistol, he gets off one shot, hoping it actually goes off and then he has his rapier and a bible leftover to win the fight. It's all situational. A marauder has probably fought more than one witch hunter in his day, he probably knows ways to come about fighting one.

One last question: What special forces does this Witch hunter have that give him an advantage over the chaos other than a gun with one shot?

[Hatemonger]

I disagree. A point blank shot isnt going through plate armor with a mail undershirt. Aint gonna happen. Maybe from a .45 or .44, more than likely a .50 but not a ball from a single shot black powder musket pistol. Especially once a shield gets factored in there. . . I think you miscalculated that one, Unless I was uninformed that chosen armor had been exchanged for tin foil.

I've never played the TT, but I'm assuming for the sake of balance, that a Chaos Warrior would be susceptible to one-shot rifle rounds, or...really, it wouldn't be a very fair game would it?

[Krulltak]

I disagree. A point blank shot isnt going through plate armor with a mail undershirt. Aint gonna happen. Maybe from a .45 or .44, more than likely a .50 but not a ball from a single shot black powder musket pistol. Especially once a shield gets factored in there. . . I think you miscalculated that one, Unless I was uninformed that chosen armor had been exchanged for tin foil.

As far as the marauder fight goes; It doesn't matter what he mutates his arm into, he just blocks a shot with whatever it is and beats the WH down with his main hand. Not to mention, the marauder is mutated pretty close to all his vital organs. And if he's as mindless and stupid as you make him out to be, he probably wouldnt need a brain. If that's where you were planning on shooting.

Again, if the witch hunter had a m4, he would win everytime, but he's dealing with a single shot musket pistol, he gets off one shot, hoping it actually goes off and then he has his rapier and a bible leftover to win the fight. It's all situational. A marauder has probably fought more than one witch hunter in his day, he probably knows ways to come about fighting one.

One last question: What special forces does this Witch hunter have that give him an advantage over the chaos other than a gun with one shot?


Wrong. You should research more. Even the oldest guns can easily pierce plate armor, which is WHY guns were evolved in the first place, to counter armored Knights.

And again, RESEARCH.

A Witch Hunter is trained in hunting down Chaos. His weapons, his scripts and Sigmarite trinkets are all imbued with the power of Sigmar, which has an advantage against fighting Chaos powers.

And the Witch Hunter carries multiple guns. But again, all he needs is one point blank shot and the Marauder is dead.

[Garwin Graves]

And the Witch Hunter carries multiple guns. But again, all he needs is one point blank shot and the Marauder is dead.

They've been known to carry upwards of twelve, yes, twelve. That coat isn't just For Truth/Appearance, ya know.

I'd have to agree with Krulltak, guns do (even blackpowder pistols) punch through plate armor... sorry Saulty. If the night didn't die from the ballistic shock, or from a bullet in the vitals, the lead poisoning got him... or gangrene.

That aside, apparently no one read my previous post... but I feel it's worth repeating.

THE MARAUDER ISN'T THE TANK CLASS (caps for emphasis, not anger or hostility)... he's not the character made to weather a bullet anyway... that would be your beloved chosen. He's not walking around in a veritable fortress of plate armor, I'm sorry to say.

[Krulltak]

THE MARAUDER ISN'T THE TANK CLASS (caps for emphasis, not anger or hostility)... he's not the character made to weather a bullet anyway... that would be your beloved chosen. He's not walking around in a veritable fortress of plate armor, I'm sorry to say.

Game mechanics have no relation with a conversation of the fluff.

[Garwin Graves]

Game mechanics have no relation with a conversation of the fluff.

I'm sorry... they wear a harness, and have no shield.

Better?

[Hive]

I disagree. A point blank shot isnt going through plate armor with a mail undershirt. Aint gonna happen. Maybe from a .45 or .44, more than likely a .50 but not a ball from a single shot black powder musket pistol. Especially once a shield gets factored in there. . . I think you miscalculated that one, Unless I was uninformed that chosen armor had been exchanged for tin foil.
You do realize that the blackpowder muskets of the 14th and 15th century directly led to the disuse of plate armor... because it offered no protection at all. Of course, even crossbows could punch through it-- platemail is not the end all be all of personal protection.

As far as the marauder fight goes; It doesn't matter what he mutates his arm into, he just blocks a shot with whatever it is and beats the WH down with his main hand. Not to mention, the marauder is mutated pretty close to all his vital organs. And if he's as mindless and stupid as you make him out to be, he probably wouldnt need a brain. If that's where you were planning on shooting.Where the hell do you people come up with this crap? Show me a single official quote saying internal organ are mutated.

Again, if the witch hunter had a m4, he would win everytime, but he's dealing with a single shot musket pistol, he gets off one shot, hoping it actually goes off and then he has his rapier and a bible leftover to win the fight. It's all situational. A marauder has probably fought more than one witch hunter in his day, he probably knows ways to come about fighting one.
The musket you are refering to is a flintlock pistol, very reliable, powerful(most are around 50 cal ball round), and accurate for the time. It's the precurser to all modern arms. Don't underestimate blackpowder weapons, there's a reason people started using them over bows and crossbows.

One last question: What special forces does this Witch hunter have that give him an advantage over the chaos other than a gun with one shot? Holy objects/water, for starters, and a knowledge of chaos and how to destroy it.

[Krulltak]

I'm sorry... they wear a harness, and have no shield.

Better?

Yes, yes it is.

[Foofmonger]

I think a WH could very well kill a Marauder, however I see a lot of argument about the WH point blank shotting the Marauder. For some reason, I don't think the WH would have a high success rate with getting close to a marauder, and then shooting it. At medium range, he would have a clear advantage.

A Marauders mutated limbs are not short (tentacles and claws and the like), so getting close enough to PBS him could = the WH dead, or his arm/gun taken away from him. While a PBS would kill him (if skin was not mutated, or a headshot) the chance of a WH surviving in point blank range is a lot less then if he wasn't right next to the marauder.

Honestly, it depends on a variety of factors. Whether the WH hits his shots, and where he lands them, what mutations the marauder has, the range of the encounter, the relative power levels between the sigmar blessed items, and the powers of tzeentch flowing through the marauder, also whether or not the marauders skin is mutated (plate armor + stone skin would probably do ok against a bullet).

It can go either way, but it seems the WH has the upper hand if he doesn't do something stupid like get really close to a mutated marauder without landing some shots first.

[sualty]

You do realize that the blackpowder muskets of the 14th and 15th century directly led to the disuse of plate armor... because it offered no protection at all. Of course, even crossbows could punch through it-- platemail is not the end all be all of personal protection.

Where the hell do you people come up with this crap? Show me a single official quote saying internal organ are mutated.


The musket you are refering to is a flintlock pistol, very reliable, powerful(most are around 50 cal ball round), and accurate for the time. It's the precurser to all modern arms. Don't underestimate blackpowder weapons, there's a reason people started using them over bows and crossbows.

Holy objects/water, for starters, and a knowledge of chaos and how to destroy it.


So chaos chosens armor is just everyday joe schmoe armor any projectile can get through? I have a hard time believing that, and I would also like to see a quote on how a flint lock pistol can penetrate an inch of steel and then keep on trucking to get through the under padding/chain mail that any knight would wear, then go straight through there skin and hit them in the heart. Not to mention this nifty contraption called a shield. Go on and on about how a flint lock pistol is going to kill a chosen, please.

You are also making it sound like a marauder has no idea how to kill an empire WH. do you honestly thing a Marauder cant kill a WH? Where do you get your crap from? Did you not notice his entire upper body is his own mutations? IE his shoulder pads? So why can't he just mutate his organs?

[sualty]

Wrong. You should research more. Even the oldest guns can easily pierce plate armor, which is WHY guns were evolved in the first place, to counter armored Knights.

And again, RESEARCH.

A Witch Hunter is trained in hunting down Chaos. His weapons, his scripts and Sigmarite trinkets are all imbued with the power of Sigmar, which has an advantage against fighting Chaos powers.

And the Witch Hunter carries multiple guns. But again, all he needs is one point blank shot and the Marauder is dead.


Read what I told Hive I believe it was about the flint locks...

I was going off the two's descriptions under armis of WAR on the warhammer website. That's www.warhammeronline.com , in case you were wandering. The descriptions go like this: WH: Rapiers main hand, pistols off hand. Marauder: main hand weapon and mutated arm off hand. So, that still means only one shot. Yes I see pistol(s) but, pointblank = one shot.

And either way, I just think the marauder should block the WH's shots with his arm, cant be that hard. All you do is put your arm up above your chest and run at the WH.

[Hive]

So chaos chosens armor is just everyday joe schmoe armor any projectile can get through? I have a hard time believing that, and I would also like to see a quote on how a flint lock pistol can penetrate an inch of steel and then keep on trucking to get through the under padding/chain mail that any knight would wear, then go straight through there skin and hit them in the heart. Not to mention this nifty contraption called a shield. Go on and on about how a flint lock pistol is going to kill a chosen, please.

You are also making it sound like a marauder has no idea how to kill an empire WH. do you honestly thing a Marauder cant kill a WH? Where do you get your crap from? Did you not notice his entire upper body is his own mutations? IE his shoulder pads? So why can't he just mutate his organs?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ba1_1180471616

Kinetic energy transfer is about the same ( 5.56 fires a much lighter, faster round vs heavy, slower round of the musket). Notice that the steel used in the demonstration is from a modern ships hull, which is much higher quality than anything a chaos chosen would have.

The point I'm trying to make is that a chosen isn't that great. In fact, lorewise vs just about every class that's been released so far he would get stomped. He's just a human with what boils down to be a genetic defect vs the warrior elite from several societies. If they were all that great they would have become chosen already.

[Hive]

Read what I told Hive I believe it was about the flint locks...

I was going off the two's descriptions under armis of WAR on the warhammer website. That's www.warhammeronline.com (http://www.warhammeronline.com) , in case you were wandering. The descriptions go like this: WH: Rapiers main hand, pistols off hand. Marauder: main hand weapon and mutated arm off hand. So, that still means only one shot. Yes I see pistol(s) but, pointblank = one shot.

And either way, I just think the marauder should block the WH's shots with his arm, cant be that hard. All you do is put your arm up above your chest and run at the WH.

If a musket can go into and exit a skull I'm betting it can pass through that arm of yours with ease.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070620081734.htm

"One of the skulls bore an entrance and exit wound, and nearby a plug of bone that might have been blasted out of the skull was found. At first, thought the holes in the skull were modern -- resulting from vandals' shots. But the plug of bone, recovered intact, reflected an impact much less forceful than any modern gunshot and carried a distinct concave imprint highly suggestive of a musket ball."

[WarMachine]

So chaos chosens armor is just everyday joe schmoe armor any projectile can get through? I have a hard time believing that, and I would also like to see a quote on how a flint lock pistol can penetrate an inch of steel and then keep on trucking to get through the under padding/chain mail that any knight would wear, then go straight through there skin and hit them in the heart. Not to mention this nifty contraption called a shield. Go on and on about how a flint lock pistol is going to kill a chosen, please.

You are also making it sound like a marauder has no idea how to kill an empire WH. do you honestly thing a Marauder cant kill a WH? Where do you get your crap from? Did you not notice his entire upper body is his own mutations? IE his shoulder pads? So why can't he just mutate his organs?
Now with the discussion of the chosen, the bullet would easily go through his armor, wheather or not it will do anything to the "thing" in the armor is unknown.
Even if the marauder would bring his arm up to protect him, the bullet would easily go through that and into the WH's inteneded spot.

At point blank, a black power pistol is as powerful if not more than any modern pistol. And the WH discription is pistol+s, hence more than one.

[Seventh Child]

So chaos chosens armor is just everyday joe schmoe armor any projectile can get through? I have a hard time believing that, and I would also like to see a quote on how a flint lock pistol can penetrate an inch of steel and then keep on trucking to get through the under padding/chain mail that any knight would wear, then go straight through there skin and hit them in the heart. Not to mention this nifty contraption called a shield. Go on and on about how a flint lock pistol is going to kill a chosen, please.

You are also making it sound like a marauder has no idea how to kill an empire WH. do you honestly thing a Marauder cant kill a WH? Where do you get your crap from? Did you not notice his entire upper body is his own mutations? IE his shoulder pads? So why can't he just mutate his organs?

Hey man, if you check the avatar, I'm going to be a Chosen. I love my Chaos. But just because a Chosen has some sweet, thick, chaos warped armour, I don't think stopping a bullet is on the menu. Especially not at the close ranges a Witch-Hunter would use said firearm at. A sad truth. But as Eliphas would say "We are beaten. Accept your weakness."

Also, Marauders don't really have a great deal of control over their mutations. As far as fluff goes, it's all down to the big man - Tzeentch. Usually (again, as far as fluff goes) the changes tend to occur over a long period of time, not so much a "I think I'll put my kidney in my shoulder today" type of thing.

I'd give the edge to the Witch Hunter. Marauders are, in their simplest form, chaos touched humans. The Witch Hunter's specialty.

I'd say the Marauders got a good run though. If he can just get close enough to give him one good crack upside the head, Hunter's probably gonna buckle. I'm not saying the WH is weak, I'm just saying it's like trying to armwrestle a Russian Commando.

[sualty]

A 5.56 nato round (probably full metal jacket) is way stronger than a flint lock pistol, especially at penetration. You guys are seriously out of your minds. Look at your avatar seventh. do you not see how thick his shoulder piece is? I don't have my bifocals on but considering how small that picture is, thats atleast an inch of armor. and at point blank, the only effective range for that pistol, your only getting one shot off.

"But the plug of bone, recovered intact, reflected an impact much less forceful than any modern gunshot and carried a distinct concave imprint highly suggestive of a musket ball."

Man, much less forceful that a modern gunshot, killed yourself on that one Hive.

Warmachine makes another valid point, say it does go through his armor, since they wear 1/8" thick armor these days... wtf is it going to do to him? Was joining chaos good for anything?

What you guys don't understand is when a bullet leaves the chamber it travels at the same speed until stopped. that means after travelling 10 miles its still going xxx mph just as when it first left the chamber. the only force against it being gravity, so it falls dramatically to the ground.

Law of Inertia
"An object that is in motion will not change its velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity) (accelerate) until a net force acts upon it."

point blank or not, the bullet will do the same damage long as it hits.

[Foofmonger]

Hey man, if you check the avatar, I'm going to be a Chosen. I love my Chaos. But just because a Chosen has some sweet, thick, chaos warped armour, I don't think stopping a bullet is on the menu. Especially not at the close ranges a Witch-Hunter would use said firearm at. A sad truth. But as Eliphas would say "We are beaten. Accept your weakness."

Also, Marauders don't really have a great deal of control over their mutations. As far as fluff goes, it's all down to the big man - Tzeentch. Usually (again, as far as fluff goes) the changes tend to occur over a long period of time, not so much a "I think I'll put my kidney in my shoulder today" type of thing.

I'd give the edge to the Witch Hunter. Marauders are, in their simplest form, chaos touched humans. The Witch Hunter's specialty.

I'd say the Marauders got a good run though. If he can just get close enough to give him one good crack upside the head, Hunter's probably gonna buckle. I'm not saying the WH is weak, I'm just saying it's like trying to armwrestle a Russian Commando.

Remember, we aren't basing this on the standard IP lore, specifically, the in game lore and the elite Marauder that it is in WAR.

So mutations will not be completely random, they won't take a long time to change, and it will be the "kidney in the shoulder deal" (well I dunno about internal organs, but its going to be on the fly stuff).

As per my post above, it really depends on a variety of factors. The biggest two being the range of the encounter, and whether or not the marauder has his skin mutated.

[Hive]

A 5.56 nato round (probably full metal jacket) is way stronger than a flint lock pistol, especially at penetration. "We fired 5.56mm lead tipped (softer than standard ammo) ammo." From the section explaining what the video is about. You guys are seriously out of your minds. Look at your avatar seventh. do you not see how thick his shoulder piece is? I don't have my bifocals on but considering how small that picture is, thats atleast an inch of armor. and at point blank, the only effective range for that pistol, your only getting one shot off.
Did we not just go over why guns lead directly to the disuse of plate armor?
"But the plug of bone, recovered intact, reflected an impact much less forceful than any modern gunshot and carried a distinct concave imprint highly suggestive of a musket ball."

Man, much less forceful that a modern gunshot, killed yourself on that one Hive.
Do you have any idea how much power it takes to do a through and through on a human skull, especially from forehead to back? Judging from your other posts you don't know much about guns, physics, or GW lore... I suggest reading more about all three.
Warmachine makes another valid point, say it does go through his armor, since they wear 1/8" thick armor these days... wtf is it going to do to him? Was joining chaos good for anything?

You keep forgetting that it doesn't have to kill him outright. Hit the collarbone and it doesn't matter how tough you are, you won't be using that arm for anything for awhile. Hit the spine, hit a lung, major artery, ect. Wound shock alone will take enough fight out of you to make finishing you off a breeze. What you guys don't understand is when a bullet leaves the chamber it travels at the same speed until stopped. that means after travelling 10 miles its still going xxx mph just as when it first left the chamber. the only force against it being gravity, so it falls dramatically to the ground.

Law of Inertia
"An object that is in motion will not change its velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity) (accelerate) until a net force acts upon it."

point blank or not, the bullet will do the same damage long as it hits. What does this have to do with anything? Other than the fact that you have forgotten about air resistance. Beyond all that, this is supposed to be a fight between a witch hunter and a lightly armored marauder, not a heavily armored chosen. Or did you finally decide, correctly, that a witch hunter would usually win?

[sualty]

"We fired 5.56mm lead tipped (softer than standard ammo) ammo." From the section explaining what the video is about. Did we not just go over why guns lead directly to the disuse of plate armor? Do you have any idea how much power it takes to do a through and through on a human skull, especially from forehead to back? Judging from your other posts you don't know much about guns, physics, or GW lore... I suggest reading more about all three. You keep forgetting that it doesn't have to kill him outright. Hit the collarbone and it doesn't matter how tough you are, you won't be using that arm for anything for awhile. Hit the spine, hit a lung, major artery, ect. Wound shock alone will take enough fight out of you to make finishing you off a breeze. What does this have to do with anything? Other than the fact that you have forgotten about air resistance. Beyond all that, this is supposed to be a fight between a witch hunter and a lightly armored marauder, not a heavily armored chosen. Or did you finally decide, correctly, that a witch hunter would usually win?

1. Softer than standard still isnt as weak as a flint lock pistol, the velocity doesnt change.

2. You went into it, but you never had a quote proving it.

3. Do you have any idea how much power it requires to go through an inch of steel (shield)? Then to go through another 1/8" of his actual plate?

4. You keep forgetting it wont even go through his shield.

5. What that has to do with anything, is air resistance doesnt even need to be factored in at less than 10 feet. Read the rest on wikipedia.org on muskets about how innacurate these guns were. Look up the video on youtube about a musket, a guy got 3 shots off in 46 seconds. Take note of the third shot. Almost didnt even go off, by the time the shot got off, he wasnt even aiming at his target. There's your weapon. In fact, its a stronger version of your weapon.

So lets say he does fight the Marauder and it back fires? or doesnt go off? What happens then? What happens when the Witch hunter goes to pick up his gun and it takes him 15 seconds to load it? 15 seconds is atleast 15 yards time. He would be dead by then. I mean honestly, you don't just keep a loaded musket in your pocket, the powder would fall out and/or go off in your pocket.

I totally agree that if a WH gets off ONE good shot, he wins, that was my original argument everyone threw out of proportion. But, whose to say he doesnt miss? Who's to say his gun doesn't misfire? Who's to say this Marauder isn't completely numb to pain? He's basically possessed by chaos energy from what i understand. Why is it that his arm can be easily penetrated by a musket ball? Does it also just blubber when he hits stuff too?

[sualty]

O btw, heres your good old flint lock gun doing its damage... to the user. So, have fun with that, and just try not to kill somebody.

doesnt even fire...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvTvISUomA&mode=related&search=#
3 shots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbxZ1k9NQ&mode=related&search=
wow.. ("hopefully it discharges"...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT170b9T42Y
another third shot doesnt go off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl3B-sXKDnU&mode=related&search=

[Hive]

1. Softer than standard still isnt as weak as a flint lock pistol, the velocity doesnt change.

But the mass does, kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times velocity squared. It balances out in the end. 2. You went into it, but you never had a quote proving it.

http://www.knight-medieval.com/ The Decline of Knights Over the centuries knighthood eventually declined to the state they are in now as strictly a title of honor with no real power. The thing that brought about the demise of the knight was technology and this moved in stages. The first stage of decline was the invention of the crossbow and later the arbalest (Which was a very powerful crossbow) these weapons could be wielded by someone with very little training and they were powerful enough to pierce the best armor of a knight. This meant that a knight who had trained all his life in the art of combat could be brought down in the matter of a few seconds by a person with an arbalest and very little training. The Arbalest was declared a dishonorable weapon but it was still used. This technological development was probably enough alone to bring about the fall of the knight but the decline was completed with the development of gunpowder. As guns came into use it was clear the knight stood no chance for no armor could protect against a bullet. http://navsci.berkeley.edu/ma20/PPT/Feudal%20Warfare%2021%20Feb%2006.ppt Have to dig through a University of Berkeley powerpoint but it should tell you everything you want to know. 3. Do you have any idea how much power it requires to go through an inch of steel (shield)? Then to go through another 1/8" of his actual plate?

4. You keep forgetting it wont even go through his shield.

See above. There is a reason we haven't had armor encased knights roaming the battlefield for several centuries. That reason is the gun. 5. What that has to do with anything, is air resistance doesnt even need to be factored in at less than 10 feet. The point is that post had nothing to do with the conversation, and the air resistance part was just another way of showing that you have no idea what you are talking about. Read the rest on wikipedia.org on muskets about how innacurate these guns were. Look up the video on youtube about a musket, a guy got 3 shots off in 46 seconds. Take note of the third shot. Almost didnt even go off, by the time the shot got off, he wasnt even aiming at his target. There's your weapon. In fact, its a stronger version of your weapon. The thing of it is he shouldn't need more than a shot, in a one on one fight all he has to do is weaken his enemy.

So lets say he does fight the Marauder and it back fires? or doesnt go off? What happens then? What happens when the Witch hunter goes to pick up his gun and it takes him 15 seconds to load it? 15 seconds is atleast 15 yards time. He would be dead by then. I mean honestly, you don't just keep a loaded musket in your pocket, the powder would fall out and/or go off in your pocket.

I totally agree that if a WH gets off ONE good shot, he wins, that was my original argument everyone threw out of proportion. But, whose to say he doesnt miss? Who's to say his gun doesn't misfire? Who's to say this Marauder isn't completely numb to pain? He's basically possessed by chaos energy from what i understand. Why is it that his arm can be easily penetrated by a musket ball? Does it also just blubber when he hits stuff too? Now you're getting into "but what if's" the original question is just a standard "let's see these two fight". In most scenarios the WH will win. You can nitpick it to death to get the marauder to win, but then, you can do the same with an argument about an ant disabling a jumbo jet.

[sualty]

No worries, check my last post. Have fun with a gun like that. If it even fires.

The law of inertia comment had to do with someone who said that at pointblank the flint lock gun is just as strong as any modern day weapon, that = bs.

Crossbow lead to the decline of knights and then guns finished it. I just had no idea that the chosens tzeencth blessed/forged armor couldnt stop a round, not even with its shield. I mean honestly, we have bullet proof vests out now that can stop most rounds and obviously a flint lock round. All they have to do is add another layer of armor on it in ornamentation. You analyzed how strong a bullet was and how strong OUR armor was, now tell me how thick a Chosen's armor is according to the pictures were given by Mythic. That's really all that the armor fight is all about. I just cant come to the conclusion that a Chosen's armor is as light as perhaps say a knight of the round table.

[WarMachine]

A 5.56 nato round (probably full metal jacket) is way stronger than a flint lock pistol, especially at penetration. You guys are seriously out of your minds. Look at your avatar seventh. do you not see how thick his shoulder piece is? I don't have my bifocals on but considering how small that picture is, thats atleast an inch of armor. and at point blank, the only effective range for that pistol, your only getting one shot off.

"But the plug of bone, recovered intact, reflected an impact much less forceful than any modern gunshot and carried a distinct concave imprint highly suggestive of a musket ball."

Man, much less forceful that a modern gunshot, killed yourself on that one Hive.

Warmachine makes another valid point, say it does go through his armor, since they wear 1/8" thick armor these days... wtf is it going to do to him? Was joining chaos good for anything?

What you guys don't understand is when a bullet leaves the chamber it travels at the same speed until stopped. that means after travelling 10 miles its still going xxx mph just as when it first left the chamber. the only force against it being gravity, so it falls dramatically to the ground.

Law of Inertia
"An object that is in motion will not change its velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity) (accelerate) until a net force acts upon it."

point blank or not, the bullet will do the same damage long as it hits.

Ok, now I will explain how you are wrong, horribly. First, you are comparing a NATO rilfe round, to a pistol. Rifles will have a high velocity over all, a pistol will have an initial high velocity, then drop quickly. "until a net force acts upon it." Now a NATO 556 is made areodynamic to travel longer distanced, that being said, it doesn't need much higher velocity to travel as far. Second part of that being gravity to weight, now a NATO 556 weights in at a few ounces, where as a small ball round can weigh up to 1lbs (thuse why it will drop velocity quicly but do heavy damage).

Now the next part is the intent behind design. The NATO 556 is NOT an AP round, but the small ball was designed to AP plate armor in both pistol and rifle forms. The NATO 556 is designed to maim, bring a soldier out of battle, making his compainions carry him off the battle field, so once the NATO 556 hits its inteded tartget it looses its velocity fast and will splinter inside its target (thats why it is such a soft metal). Now the small ball was designed with one intent, to kill, one shot from this round was designed to mortalaly wound or kill a target in one shot. Its velocity is high a short range (but also due to is design it losses velocity extreamly fast). Some makes are made to initially AP plate go through the body, bounce off the back of the plate, them go back through the body. Now one thing all small ball had in common was the intent to leave an extreamy big exit wound, where as the NATO 556 leaves a small exit wound.

Finally, you may be comparing apples to oranges, but the black powder pistol is far deadlier in close range just by its design. Any FM on NATO arms or the NATO 556 will tell you everything I just wrote above, and I am a NATO arms expert, and spent many years in the military and have plenty of experiance with the NATO 556.

EDIT: Oh, and should probobly mention my father is in many black powder clubs (I join him), and experianced black powder users rarely have missfires, likely just the same as aM16 (using NATO 556 rounds) would have.

[sualty]

Bullets have one intention. To kill. Some are just better than others at it. Close range a m4 (5.56) is going to do just as muh damage as a flint lock. Have you not watched the history channel and how m4 bullets would actually bounce off bones multiple times maiming every organ inside there body?

I see what you are saying, pointblank(1-2ft) the pistol has all its power, well 5-10 feet away its not losing much. 5-10 feet away is more probable. Theres no telling how long the marauders arm is. If the WH waits to long, the Marauder just grabs the gun and uses it on the WH.

EDIT: again heres your flintlock that "doest misfire often"
O btw, heres your good old flint lock gun doing its damage... to the user. So, have fun with that, and just try not to kill somebody.

doesnt even fire...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvTv...related&search (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvTvISUomA&mode=related&search)=#
3 shots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbx...related&search (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbxZ1k9NQ&mode=related&search)=
wow.. ("hopefully it discharges"...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT170b9T42Y
another third shot doesnt go off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl3B-...related&search (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl3B-sXKDnU&mode=related&search)=

[WarMachine]

Bullets have one intention. To kill. Some are just better than others at it. Close range a m4 (5.56) is going to do just as muh damage as a flint lock. Have you not watched the history channel and how m4 bullets would actually bounce off bones multiple times maiming every organ inside there body?
I don't need to watch the history channel, I was there. And once more you are wrong. Point blank, I know as I carried an M4, needs to hit bone or a vital organ to be effective. Or else you get a small entry, and a small exit, an will usually not even stop a target if it only hits soft tissue. Now a 30mm to 50mm small ball is a little bigger than a marble, and can weight up to 1lbs, once it hits a target in close range will leave up to a 5in diamiter entry wound, and an even larger exit wound, just passing through soft tissue it can fracture bones, rupter artieres, and cause organs to rupture as well, something a NATO 556 will not do.

The bullets purpuse may not be to kill, but that don't stop soldiers from using it that way. Piont blank a NATO 556 enters and exits if it hits nothing hard. Long range, the bullet is designed to enter and destry the part of the bady it hits.


I see what you are saying, pointblank(1-2ft) the pistol has all its power, well 5-10 feet away its not losing much. 5-10 feet away is more probable. Theres no telling how long the marauders arm is. If the WH waits to long, the Marauder just grabs the gun and uses it on the WH.

Its actually all depended on how much powder is loaded into a gun, for the WH intenet it will be a heavy load, as he's not out there to injure.

EDIT: again heres your flintlock that "doest misfire often"
O btw, heres your good old flint lock gun doing its damage... to the user. So, have fun with that, and just try not to kill somebody.


doesnt even fire...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvTv...related&search (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvTvISUomA&mode=related&search)=#
3 shots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbx...related&search (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbxZ1k9NQ&mode=related&search)=
wow.. ("hopefully it discharges"...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT170b9T42Y
another third shot doesnt go off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl3B-...related&search=


Now what you are showing us here are personally owned recreational black powder weapons. We don't know their condition, as the owners don't use them in a life or death situations. And you don't know if that rilfe's flint lock was any good, I'm guessing not as no smoke rose during the missfire. Now the WH does, his life depends on those weapons, he will keep them in good working condition.

[sualty]

I don't need to watch the history channel, I was there. And once more you are wrong. Point blank, I know as I carried an M4, needs to hit bone or a vital organ to be effective. Or else you get a small entry, and a small exit, an will usually not even stop a target if it only hits soft tissue. Now a 30mm to 50mm small ball is a little bigger than a marble, and can weight up to 1lbs, once it hits a target in close range will leave up to a 5in diamiter entry wound, and an even larger exit wound, just passing through soft tissue it can fracture bones, rupter artieres, and cause organs to rupture as well, something a NATO 556 will not do.

The bullets purpuse may not be to kill, but that don't stop soldiers from using it that way. Piont blank a NATO 556 enters and exits if it hits nothing hard. Long range, the bullet is designed to enter and destry the part of the bady it hits.


Its actually all depended on how much powder is loaded into a gun, for the WH intenet it will be a heavy load, as he's not out there to injure.



Now what you are showing us here are personally owned recreational black powder weapons. We don't know their condition, as the owners don't use them in a life or death situations. And you don't know if that rilfe's flint lock was any good, I'm guessing not as no smoke rose during the missfire. Now the WH does, his life depends on those weapons, he will keep them in good working condition.



Well, since you know everything there is to know about guns, why are you arguing that a flint lock pistol can kill somone more effectively than an m4? 5.56 nato round to the head = dead, you hit right where you aim, it's simple math. Wait let me guess, it would just pass right through the skull and brain, the soldier wouldn't even know it happened and he would jsut keep on fighting? Now I'm going to believe every comment you have from this point onward about guns...

The whole point of having an m4 is not having to be point blank. You are accurate 100 feet away. It has a spiraling barrel to make the round spin and more accurate as it leaves the chamber. It has an aerodynamic shape to furthermore increase its veloctiy. It bounces off bones and ruptures internal organs. I will give you an example. If it were you with an m4 vs your dad wth a flintlock pistol (mint condition) 100 ft away who would win? ... "Well if we were pointblank..." Who cares, you wont ever be if you have a m4.

All those "personal" clips that I showed you are just your average civil/revolutionary war pistols, the same kind the WH is going to be using probably just as used as his very own. Because we know all witch hunters have endless experience in killing chaos. I doubt their guns a pretty and shiny anymore. In fact, probably quite the contrary, probaby all rusted and worn from using them over 1,000,000 times.

[WarMachine]

Well, since you know everything there is to know about guns, why are you arguing that a flint lock pistol can kill somone more effectively than an m4? 5.56 nato round to the head = dead, you hit right where you aim, it's simple math. Wait let me guess, it would just pass right through the skull and brain, the soldier wouldn't even know it happened and he would jsut keep on fighting? Now I'm going to believe every comment you have from this point onward about guns...
So after you arguement has been proven wrong you go into well, a shot to the head will kill anything arguement. To be shot in the head by a NATO is not going to kill 100% of the time (down side to the design of the round), on the other hand, if your shot in the head with a small ball, your 100% dead. In actuallity, my Platoon SGT. was shot in the head by a NATO 556, it exited, and he lived, but thats a differnt story.... And not your origianl point.
Now back to you original arguement, a small ball round is more than effecivly enough to one shot a marauder, even if the initial shot wasn't fatal, it would still be more than enough for the WH to pull out another gun and finish him, or finish him with his rapier will no resistance from the marauder.


The whole point of having an m4 is not having to be point blank. You are accurate 100 feet away. It has a spiraling barrel to make the round spin and more accurate as it leaves the chamber. It has an aerodynamic shape to furthermore increase its veloctiy. It bounces off bones and ruptures internal organs. I will give you an example. If it were you with an m4 vs your dad wth a flintlock pistol (mint condition) 100 ft away who would win? ... "Well if we were pointblank..." Who cares, you wont ever be if you have a m4.
Really, its areodynamic design is to lessen the amount of velocity it losses as it travels through the air, you can't design a round to "gain" velocity after it has been fired.

Just to let you know, my father is just as acurate with his flint lock rifle as I was with an M4, or my currently owned SKS, and I hit 10 for 10 when I try at 200m, same with him.

Granted, you finally figured out the point of a rifle, I still don't know why you keep comparing it to a pistol......



All those "personal" clips that I showed you are just your average civil/revolutionary war pistols, the same kind the WH is going to be using probably just as used as his very own. Because we know all witch hunters have endless experience in killing chaos. I doubt their guns a pretty and shiny anymore. In fact, probably quite the contrary, probaby all rusted and worn from using them over 1,000,000 times.
I'd say far from average, if their actually origianl flint lock, they are over 100 years old, and required to use a light load (as the barrel has gotten brittel and have been known to explode with just a meddium load of powder). Now, with that being said, I still havn't see spark or smoke during the miss fire, showing the the flint was actually bad, causeing the missfire (and usually not replaced because fint for rifles are just not found at you local sporting goods store). Now, seeing as the WH's life depends on his pistols (and flint IS easily avalible to them), I would be 100% sure that the black powerder pistol will fire, and if the pistol was to the point that it would leave a chance to fail, he/she would have already replaced it, as it is a common weapon of the time.

It boils down to "if the pistol even had a 95% chance of firing, and if the WH had a 5% chance of missing" It would still come down to a 1 out of 10 chance that the WH would lose the battle, hence, the Which hunter wins.

[sualty]

So after you arguement has been proven wrong you go into well, a shot to the head will kill anything arguement. To be shot in the head by a NATO is not going to kill 100% of the time (down side to the design of the round), on the other hand, if your shot in the head with a small ball, your 100% dead. In actuallity, my Platoon SGT. was shot in the head by a NATO 556, it exited, and he lived, but thats a differnt story.... And not your origianl point.
Now back to you original arguement, a small ball round is more than effecivly enough to one shot a marauder, even if the initial shot wasn't fatal, it would still be more than enough for the WH to pull out another gun and finish him, or finish him with his rapier will no resistance from the marauder.

How did you prove my argurment wrong? Your talking about hunting rifles that are nice and polished every night and dont actually make their way onto a warzone. While im talking about a flint lock pistol and if you honestly think that those are as accurate as the rifles, el oh el. Or do you even know what that means?



Really, its areodynamic design is to lessen the amount of velocity it losses as it travels through the air, you can't design a round to "gain" velocity after it has been fired.


Maybe I said it wrong, because you cant gain velocity after a gunes been fired. Perhaps the way I meant it was its aerodynamic shape cuts down the air resistance giving it a further space to travel with minimal drop.

Just to let you know, my father is just as acurate with his flint lock rifle as I was with an M4, or my currently owned SKS, and I hit 10 for 10 when I try at 200m, same with him.

Pictures or it didn't happen, welcome to the internet.


Granted, you finally figured out the point of a rifle, I still don't know why you keep comparing it to a pistol......


Because the Witch Hunter doesn't use rifles......


I'd say far from average, if their actually origianl flint lock, they are over 100 years old, and required to use a light load (as the barrel has gotten brittel and have been known to explode with just a meddium load of powder). Now, with that being said, I still havn't see spark or smoke during the miss fire, showing the the flint was actually bad, causeing the missfire (and usually not replaced because fint for rifles are just not found at you local sporting goods store). Now, seeing as the WH's life depends on his pistols (and flint IS easily avalible to them), I would be 100% sure that the black powerder pistol will fire, and if the pistol was to the point that it would leave a chance to fail, he/she would have already replaced it, as it is a common weapon of the time.


It's probably going to be hard for the WH to change out his flints/barrel in the middle of a heated battle.


It boils down to "if the pistol even had a 95% chance of firing, and if the WH had a 5% chance of missing" It would still come down to a 1 out of 10 chance that the WH would lose the battle, hence, the Which hunter wins.

Um, actually that means "the witch hunter wins 90% of the time." and those are under your terms of ok lets get a marauder and a witch hunter back to back and have them prepare there weapons / mutations and then have them walk 10 steps turn around an shoot. From what I understand this is if a Marauder and a Witch Hunter meet eyes on a battlefield and they engage at lets say a 20 foot distance. Both all warmed up from just killing an enemy. The marauder charges, the WH gets 1 shot off, because hes only aloud to use his off hand according to the description.

Now, Under those circumstances, I said it depends. If the WH misses he loses, holy objects didnt even work on reagan from the exorcist, I doubt they are going to work on this barbarian chaos disciple.

[WarMachine]

How did you prove my argurment wrong? Your talking about hunting rifles that are nice and polished every night and dont actually make their way onto a warzone. While im talking about a flint lock pistol and if you honestly think that those are as accurate as the rifles, el oh el. Or do you even know what that means?
I've proved your arguement wrong with acual knowlage, and not something I heard on TV.

No, I'm talking about pistols, you started in with the NATO rounds, and posting vids of flint lock hunting rifles, I gave you an example of a rifle, because my dad don't shoot his pistol anymore. I've been stating 30-50mm small ball pistols. And iron sight to iron sight, they are just as accurate, I mean they are pretty much the same except how the round is shapped and how it is fired, all have a max effective range, all have rifling, and all have a barrel. Now I never said a Black Powder pistol is as acurate as a rifle at the rifle's max effective range, but I would beg that it is more accurate at point blank than a rifle. And most weapons taken into warzones are the polished and cleaned every night ones, as when your life depends on how you take care of your weapon, you keep it in good shape.

Maybe I said it wrong, because you cant gain velocity after a gunes been fired. Perhaps the way I meant it was its aerodynamic shape cuts down the air resistance giving it a further space to travel with minimal drop.
Trust me, you don't have to correct your self, it was the least of the ignorant things you said.

Pictures or it didn't happen, welcome to the internet.
This coming from someone whos knowlage comes from the history channel....

Because the Witch Hunter doesn't use rifles......
Why do you keep bring up rifles, I've never talked about them, except where you drought them up, but you keep bring them up.

It's probably going to be hard for the WH to change out his flints/barrel in the middle of a heated battle.
Why would he need to change his flint or barrels out in battle, you really are ignorant on black powder pistols, aren't you?

Um, actually that means "the witch hunter wins 90% of the time." and those are under your terms of ok lets get a marauder and a witch hunter back to back and have them prepare there weapons / mutations and then have them walk 10 steps turn around an shoot. From what I understand this is if a Marauder and a Witch Hunter meet eyes on a battlefield and they engage at lets say a 20 foot distance. Both all warmed up from just killing an enemy. The marauder charges, the WH gets 1 shot off, because hes only aloud to use his off hand according to the description.

Now, Under those circumstances, I said it depends. If the WH misses he loses, holy objects didnt even work on reagan from the exorcist, I doubt they are going to work on this barbarian chaos disciple.
Humm.... good thing this ain't the exorcist, and holy objects do work on chaos in WarHammer. But hey, I bet a pistol would have taken care of the possesed girl. It never said that they have to use the pistol in the off hand, just that they usually do, likely (in a RL battle) at that range a WH would dual weild pistols and drop one to pull out his sword to go in to h2h. But its not like the WH needs more then one shot, see the WH is a hightly trained chaos hunter, and could easily hit a marauder, not exactly a small or fast target.

You can't even argue your point without jumping all over the place making no sence in half your arguements, you attemt to prove someone wrong with guesses and stuff you learned on the history channel. Don't argue about something you don't even know about. Its pointless to even try argueing with you.

You fail, the witch hunter wins.

[Foofmonger]

Guys remember that the marauder can change his skin into stone or iron.

This is something that cannot be ignore when talking about getting hit with projectiles.

(and as far as a black powder musket going through platemail, plus 1-2 inches of solid stone, then going into the body and actually doing a significant amount of damage, isn't the most reliable scenario).

Also, I have discussed how the WH shooting the Marauder at point blank range without softening him up will most likely lead to the WH death, even if he gets a shot off.

To win, the WH needs to stay at moderate range, be very accurate with his attacks, hope the marauders skin isn't mutated (or hit him in parts that aren't mutated), and hope his weapons don't backfire. It isn't a surefire victory by any means.

[Hive]

Guys remember that the marauder can change his skin into stone or iron.

This is something that cannot be ignore when talking about getting hit with projectiles.
Skin isn't very thick. I don't see it making much of a difference where a bullet is concerned. Add to the fact that the bullet in question has probably been dipped in holy water/ made from blessed metal/ ect. to make it even more effective vs a creature of chaos and you still have one hurting mutant.

(and as far as a black powder musket going through platemail, plus 1-2 inches of solid stone, then going into the body and actually doing a significant amount of damage, isn't the most reliable scenario).
When did marauders start wearing platemail? and where are you getting 1-2 inches of solid stone? If you had that much stone covering you I'm betting you wouldn't moving fast, which would allow the WH to get multiple shots off or just kite him to death.

Also, I have discussed how the WH shooting the Marauder at point blank range without softening him up will most likely lead to the WH death, even if he gets a shot off.

To win, the WH needs to stay at moderate range, be very accurate with his attacks, hope the marauders skin isn't mutated (or hit him in parts that aren't mutated), and hope his weapons don't backfire. It isn't a surefire victory by any means.
Nothing is surefire, but all things considered in most scenerios the marauder won't win.

[Foofmonger]

Skin isn't very thick. I don't see it making much of a difference where a bullet is concerned. Add to the fact that the bullet in question has probably been dipped in holy water/ made from blessed metal/ ect. to make it even more effective vs a creature of chaos and you still have one hurting mutant.


Normal skin isn't thick, but we aren't talking about normal skin. While it may have been dipped in whatever, you have to remember that this isn't just some random chaos creature. The marauder is a very experienced, battle tested warrior, who is in direct communication with Tzeentch. While the WHs blessed items work well against chaos, I sincerely doubt that they can compete with the direct power of Tzeentch.


When did marauders start wearing platemail? and where are you getting 1-2 inches of solid stone? If you had that much stone covering you I'm betting you wouldn't moving fast, which would allow the WH to get multiple shots off or just kite him to death.


They have platemail helmets/shoulderguards/etc.. It isn't a full suit of armor or anything, but they do wear some armor. The 1-2 inches of solid stone/iron/scales, is the mutation, and yes, you probably wouldn't be moving fast, however it is a mutation, and not permanent. The WH is at range and starts blasting, the marauder turns his skin to stone, and then what? Sure the WH could shoot more, and probably inflict little damage.. or he could "kite", but I doubt a stone marauder would follow (if hes slow). So that would be more "running away". If the WH goes up closer to try to inflict more damage, it could end up very poorly for him.

I'm not saying the Marauder will always win, but I think you are underestimating the marauder to a significant degree. Hes not gonna get shot once and keel over, nor is the WH going to be fighting him up close with a high degree of success. The WH needs to maintain range, be very accurate (and know what if any, parts of the marauders body aren't mutated), and not have any backfires with his many pistols.

[Hive]

who is in direct communication with Tzeentch.


Where are you getting this from? Every single one of your arguments revolve around this, yet I haven't seen a quote supporting your theory.

[Foofmonger]

Where are you getting this from? Every single one of your arguments revolve around this, yet I haven't seen a quote supporting your theory.

The official description of the Marauder, on the official site.

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Chaos/Careers/Marauder.php

and as far as the armor goes

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/WAR_Marauder_T4.jpg

[Hive]

The official description of the Marauder, on the official site.

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Chaos/Careers/Marauder.php


Nowhere in there does it say "in direct contact with Tzeentch". You've made an assumption that the marauder can just phone up the Lord of Change and say "Hey buddy, I really need iron skin for the next few seconds, after that, I want me a big bonesaw".

Chaos gifts don't work like that. You get what they want to give you, helpful at the time or not. Maybe they want to see you fight with what would be useful, or maybe they want to see you battle with a teacup for a hand. Beggers can't be choosers.

[Foofmonger]

Nowhere in there does it say "in direct contact with Tzeentch". You've made an assumption that the marauder can just phone up the Lord of Change and say "Hey buddy, I really need iron skin for the next few seconds, after that, I want me a big bonesaw".

Chaos gifts don't work like that. You get what they want to give you, helpful at the time or not. Maybe they want to see you fight with what would be useful, or maybe they want to see you battle with a teacup for a hand. Beggers can't be choosers.

That is not at all how it works.. re-read the description again.

From the description:

"As favored warriors of Tzeentch, Marauders are granted the Gift of Change in its purest form"

"As their bloodlust rises in anticipation of the violence of battle or pillaging, the energy of Chaos itself courses through the Marauder, bringing about dramatic physical changes"

"These gifts help to direct and enhance the destructive force of the
Marauder and, in turn, help to earn greater favor (and more
horrible gifts) from the Changer of Ways."

"Once mutated, you will have access to numerous powerful abilities that will enable you to smash, slice, rend and crush your enemies. Each mutation that is granted to you by the Raven God will also bring with it some added benefit."

"Marauders are warrior-born and make intimidating opponents even without the hand of Tzeentch intervening"

These are gifts, not curses. Tzeentch won't be giving you a teacup, or destroy the marauder. As far as direct communication, I think it is pretty clear how that works. The marauder does not "ask" for certain mutations. Tzeentch directly gives the marauder gifts depending on how well he is doing... at what Tzeentch wants. That is direct communication, even if the communication is more one sided. The Marauder is anything but a "beggar".. he is a favored warrior of Tzeentch.

So for the last time, the WAR Marauder isn't a random footsoldier who has no control over some random mutations taking over his body. Reading the official description slowly and clearly is definitly a plus.

[Hive]

That is not at all how it works.. re-read the description again.

From the description:

"As favored warriors of Tzeentch, Marauders are granted the Gift of Change in its purest form"

"As their bloodlust rises in anticipation of the violence of battle or pillaging, the energy of Chaos itself courses through the Marauder, bringing about dramatic physical changes"

"These gifts help to direct and enhance the destructive force of the
Marauder and, in turn, help to earn greater favor (and more
horrible gifts) from the Changer of Ways."

"Once mutated, you will have access to numerous powerful abilities that will enable you to smash, slice, rend and crush your enemies. Each mutation that is granted to you by the Raven God will also bring with it some added benefit."

"Marauders are warrior-born and make intimidating opponents even without the hand of Tzeentch intervening"

These are gifts, not curses. Tzeentch won't be giving you a teacup, or destroy the marauder. As far as direct communication, I think it is pretty clear how that works. The marauder does not "ask" for certain mutations. Tzeentch directly gives the marauder gifts depending on how well he is doing... at what Tzeentch wants. That is direct communication, even if the communication is more one sided. The Marauder is anything but a "beggar".. he is a favored warrior of Tzeentch.

So for the last time, the WAR Marauder isn't a random footsoldier who has no control over some random mutations taking over his body. Reading the official description slowly and clearly is definitly a plus.

Funny, according to Josh Drescher they will be random... just like in the lore.
http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15347
I'm really disappointed they're leaving out the truely negative aspects of mutations for players in the game, (I'm betting we'll see a few npc chaos spawn roaming around), but it's still in the lore and thus is involved in our conversation. Chaos gifts are curses by their very nature-- you are selling your soul to a malevolent entity in exchange for some temporal power. When you allow that evil into you your body warps to reflect the change-- in effect, the evil on the inside is mirrored by the evil on the outside.

As far as the favored warrior part goes, if he was truely favored he'd be a chosen-- that's the next step up on the ladder of chaos. Knowing more about the lore than a quick summation designed to intrest people in a game is an even bigger plus.

[Foofmonger]

Funny, according to Josh Drescher they will be random... just like in the lore.
http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15347
I'm really disappointed they're leaving out the truely negative aspects of mutations for players in the game, (I'm betting we'll see a few npc chaos spawn roaming around), but it's still in the lore and thus is involved in our conversation. Chaos gifts are curses by their very nature-- you are selling your soul to a malevolent entity in exchange for some temporal power. When you allow that evil into you your body warps to reflect the change-- in effect, the evil on the inside is mirrored by the evil on the outside.


A random element, and being completely random aren't the same thing. Chaos gifts are NOT curses by their very nature, the perception of curse/gift is completely up to the individual. I'm sure a witch hunter wouldn't want Tzeentch giving him a giant tentacle armor, that would be a huge curse, but to a marauder it is a huge gift. Chaos is not evil, and has never been evil, it is chaos. You say I don't understand the lore, but the simple fact that you associate chaos with evil shows a complete lack of understanding of the very nature of chaos.


As far as the favored warrior part goes, if he was truely favored he'd be a chosen-- that's the next step up on the ladder of chaos. Knowing more about the lore than a quick summation designed to intrest people in a game is an even bigger plus.

We are basing this on the IN GAME LORE! For the last time. The marauder as it exists in WAR is not relevant to the normal IP lore, because it does not exist. If you can't adhere to this point, then don't post on these topics.

[Hive]

A random element, and being completely random aren't the same thing. Chaos gifts are NOT curses by their very nature, the perception of curse/gift is completely up to the individual. I'm sure a witch hunter wouldn't want Tzeentch giving him a giant tentacle armor, that would be a huge curse, but to a marauder it is a huge gift. Chaos is not evil, and has never been evil, it is chaos. You say I don't understand the lore, but the simple fact that you associate chaos with evil shows a complete lack of understanding of the very nature of chaos.
Let's see, the Chaos gods are manifestations of the most vile elements of human nature-- greed, lust, unrestrained violence, dispair, ect... where I come from we call that evil. Chaos itself is not evil, but the Chaos gods and their followers most certainly are no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it. If you knew the IP better you'd know that there is a difference between the two.




We are basing this on the IN GAME LORE! For the last time. The marauder as it exists in WAR is not relevant to the normal IP lore, because it does not exist. If you can't adhere to this point, then don't post on these topics.
Without the IP lore this game doesn't exist. You don't even know the true in-game lore as you don't have a full tome of knowledge to pick it up from. Maybe you should stop being willfully ignorant of that fact.

[Taurth]

Let's see, the Chaos gods are manifestations of the most vile elements of human nature-- greed, lust, unrestrained violence, dispair, ect... where I come from we call that evil. Chaos itself is not evil, but the Chaos gods and their followers most certainly are no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it. If you knew the IP better you'd know that there is a difference between the two.
You obviously don't know much about the Chaos Gods then. The Chaos Gods are born from many base emotions taken to their extremes. For example, Tzeentch is born from hope.

I recommend reading this (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17587) description as it gives a good description of how the Chaos Gods are formed and what by.

[Hatemonger]

Let's see, the Chaos gods are manifestations of the most vile elements of human nature-- greed, lust, unrestrained violence, dispair, ect... where I come from we call that evil. Chaos itself is not evil, but the Chaos gods and their followers most certainly are no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it. If you knew the IP better you'd know that there is a difference between the two.

No, if the Chaos gods and followers are evil, then so is Chaos. Honestly, though...the chaos gods are living manifestations of SPECIFIC human emotions, not mortal beings who can comprehend the intricacies of right and wrong. Calling them evil, is like callin a gun or a robot evil. Yeah, they can kill people potentially, but are they 'evil' for it?

BTW, since when is lust evil? And who is the Chaos god of despair? Their followers sure aren't a sad bunch.

Without the IP lore this game doesn't exist. You don't even know the true in-game lore as you don't have a full tome of knowledge to pick it up from. Maybe you should stop being willfully ignorant of that fact.

He said nothing about the IP lore.

Of course WAR is based on the WH intellectual property. It is however, not a direct translation of it, and is not even considered in the same 'timeline' as the regular WH world. The WAR Marauder is not the tabletop Marauder. It is a much more diverse, powerful, and unique being simply based on the tabletop model.

[Krulltak]

Monger, they are also not basing anything on the tabletop "anything" either, but the fluff. The stats and rules of a game/video-game are never going to properly correspond with the IP's true fluff.

[Hive]

You obviously don't know much about the Chaos Gods then. The Chaos Gods are born from many base emotions taken to their extremes. For example, Tzeentch is born from hope.

I recommend reading this (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17587) description as it gives a good description of how the Chaos Gods are formed and what by.

I'll one up you with a better desription from page 9 of 5th ed Realm of Chaos:

"The nature of Chaos is neither good nor evil, it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of the intellegent beings in the real universe. Thus, the predatory entities of Chaos, be they gods or Daemons, exist because living things generate these emotions. So when a human mind turns to petty and evil thoughts the powers of the Chaos gods grow and coalesce into hideous forms shaped by human lust, greed, anger and fear."

"For eight thousand years, Chaos has struggled to bring the free people of the world to ruin."

"The forces of Chaos will end their slaughter only when the mortal realm is on its knees before the foul gods, and then all that remains will be a Realm of Chaos."

Once again, Chaos itself = not evil (or good, for that matter). The beings (gods, demons) that are made up from the evil side of humanities intellegence = evil. There is a reason they are called the dark and ruiness powers.

[Hive]

No, if the Chaos gods and followers are evil, then so is Chaos.
Chaos itself is more of an energy that is shaped by outside influence, most notably emotions. Energy is neither good nor evil, but what it's used for can be.

Honestly, though...the chaos gods are living manifestations of SPECIFIC human emotions, not mortal beings who can comprehend the intricacies of right and wrong. Calling them evil, is like callin a gun or a robot evil. Yeah, they can kill people potentially, but are they 'evil' for it?
It's a tricky situation isn't it? On one hand you can't blame them for acting out on their only instincts, but at the same time those very acts are morally wrong under anyones standards. Those that follow them and act in their name, however, are very much capable of a choice between right and wrong.

BTW, since when is lust evil?
When the persuit towards the fulfillment of that lust causes others harm. Slaaneshi lust isn't just "I'd like to jump her bones" kind of lust, it's a "I'd like to inflict every kind of pain/sensation possible until they die from it" kind of lust.

And who is the Chaos god of despair? Their followers sure aren't a sad bunch.
Good old grandfather Nurgle gets that hat, along with physical corruption (disease, rot, death, ect).



He said nothing about the IP lore.

Of course WAR is based on the WH intellectual property. It is however, not a direct translation of it, and is not even considered in the same 'timeline' as the regular WH world. The WAR Marauder is not the tabletop Marauder. It is a much more diverse, powerful, and unique being simply based on the tabletop model.
At the same time, it's very roots are the weakest. If the marauder is jumped up a bit to fit in game how much do you think the units that were alreasy elite got boosted? Sure, it'll all even out while playing, otherwise it would be a crappy game-- but lorewise they will never compare.

[Foofmonger]

Let's see, the Chaos gods are manifestations of the most vile elements of human nature-- greed, lust, unrestrained violence, dispair, ect... where I come from we call that evil. Chaos itself is not evil, but the Chaos gods and their followers most certainly are no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it. If you knew the IP better you'd know that there is a difference between the two.


That still isn't evil. Evil is a perception, not an inherant quality. I will be as bold to state that Nazis weren't evil either. The Chaos gods, and there followers, are in the same way not evil. Misguided, confused, etc.. but not evil. To define evil as truth is an impossibility.




Without the IP lore this game doesn't exist. You don't even know the true in-game lore as you don't have a full tome of knowledge to pick it up from. Maybe you should stop being willfully ignorant of that fact.

Obviously, thank you very much. However, the fact remains that this is based on the WAR warhammer lore (the warhammer IP is still in there). But the WAR lore takes first and foremost priority. So everything about the marauder from the original IP is irrelevant if it contradicts, or does not include, the details from the WAR IP.

[Foofmonger]

Chaos itself is more of an energy that is shaped by outside influence, most notably emotions. Energy is neither good nor evil, but what it's used for can be.


What it is used for is still not good and/or evil. Those are perceptions based on the individuals judgment. If I say killing someone is not evil, then to me, it isn't evil. To you, it might be. Nobody in this situation is wrong.. or right.. because an individual beings perceptions are inherantly flawed.


It's a tricky situation isn't it? On one hand you can't blame them for acting out on their only instincts, but at the same time those very acts are morally wrong under anyones standards. Those that follow them and act in their name, however, are very much capable of a choice between right and wrong.


They are morally wrong under your standards, but not anyones. Would a serial killer find that morally wrong? I doubt it. What is right? And what is wrong? Again, perceptions and judgments, that cannot be universal.




At the same time, it's very roots are the weakest. If the marauder is jumped up a bit to fit in game how much do you think the units that were alreasy elite got boosted? Sure, it'll all even out while playing, otherwise it would be a crappy game-- but lorewise they will never compare.

The problem is that Warhammer IP marauder did not get "jumped up a bit" to fit in the game. The WAR IP Marauder is fundamentally different then the Warhammer IP Marauder, in many ways. Trying to base your argument on the Warhammer IP marauder shows that you do not know the guidlines of this discussion. If you don't take into account the WAR IP as priority, then all your comments are worthless.

[Hive]

That still isn't evil. Evil is a perception, not an inherant quality. I will be as bold to state that Nazis weren't evil either. The Chaos gods, and there followers, are in the same way not evil. Misguided, confused, etc.. but not evil.
To define evil as truth is an impossibility.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evil
Seems to do a good job of defining evil. And there a few million jews and gypsies whose firsthand experience would disagree with your "nazi's aren't evil" theory; including a few of my distant relatives.





Obviously, thank you very much. However, the fact remains that this is based on the WAR warhammer lore (the warhammer IP is still in there). But the WAR lore takes first and foremost priority. So everything about the marauder from the original IP is irrelevant if it contradicts, or does not include, the details from the WAR IP.
You are once again forgeting the fact that you do not know the full lore for the WAR ip, what you are doing is similar to a guy that once read a dust cover to a novel then wants to argue with people who've read the book.

What it is used for is still not good and/or evil. Those are perceptions based on the individuals judgment. If I say killing someone is not evil, then to me, it isn't evil. To you, it might be. Nobody in this situation is wrong.. or right.. because an individual beings perceptions are inherantly flawed.
Actions and uses most certainly can be difined as good and evil. That very truth is what every society is based on.

They are morally wrong under your standards, but not anyones. Would a serial killer find that morally wrong? I doubt it. What is right? And what is wrong? Again, perceptions and judgments, that cannot be universal.
Maybe you should try out for the position of O.J's next lawyer.

The problem is that Warhammer IP marauder did not get "jumped up a bit" to fit in the game. The WAR IP Marauder is fundamentally different then the Warhammer IP Marauder, in many ways. Trying to base your argument on the Warhammer IP marauder shows that you do not know the guidlines of this discussion. If you don't take into account the WAR IP as priority, then all your comments are worthless.
One day you'll find out that you never know who you are until you find out what you've come from.

[Gaazruk]

Monger, they are also not basing anything on the tabletop "anything" either, but the fluff. The stats and rules of a game/video-game are never going to properly correspond with the IP's true fluff.
If they based the game off of the tabletop, marauder would be the worst class in the game.

[Foofmonger]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evil
Seems to do a good job of defining evil. And there a few million jews and gypsies whose firsthand experience would disagree with your "nazi's aren't evil" theory; including a few of my distant relatives.



Since when were we debating the defniition of evil? We were debating a persons right to judge another being as evil, because it is their specific judgment, based on whatever perceptions led them to that. Just because you think someone is evil does not make it the truth.



You are once again forgeting the fact that you do not know the full lore for the WAR ip, what you are doing is similar to a guy that once read a dust cover to a novel then wants to argue with people who've read the book.


How do you know how much I know? Thats right you don't. While I am no expert, I know a bit more then the guy who read the cover of a novel... Regardless of that fact, I am pretty good on picking new things up, and have been studying the warhammer ip a good amount. Considering that you can no longer even debate the topic at hand, and have to bring your argument this far into semantics just consolidates the ridiculousness of your argument.


Actions and uses most certainly can be difined as good and evil. That very truth is what every society is based on.


How is that "truth"? Just because you hold a specific belief does not mean it is true, nor does it mean that everyone believes the same thing. Thats the problem with every society actually, the constant judging. You act like every society is perfect, and it isn't. So society must then be based on an incomplete truth, unless you imply that truth is imperfect. None of that makes any sense by the way.




One day you'll find out that you never know who you are until you find out what you've come from.

Thank you captain obvious! But seriously, that has no bearing on the discussion. All you can do at this point is resort to semantics, rhetoric, and silly advice.

Remember, we are talking about the WH vs the Marauder, and not the people discussing it. Generally only someone really desperate in their argument will resort to completely derailing the discussion.

[Hive]

Since when were we debating the defniition of evil? We were debating a persons right to judge another being as evil, because it is their specific judgment, based on whatever perceptions led them to that. Just because you think someone is evil does not make it the truth.
It's up for debate since you decided that "they aren't evil, just misunderstood". And if you really believe that about the nazi's I suggest you do some serious realigning of your moral compass.;)



How do you know how much I know? Thats right you don't. While I am no expert, I know a bit more then the guy who read the cover of a novel... Regardless of that fact, I am pretty good on picking new things up, and have been studying the warhammer ip a good amount. Considering that you can no longer even debate the topic at hand, and have to bring your argument this far into semantics just consolidates the ridiculousness of your argument.
You have yet to show even the slightest signs of knowledge on the subject. I'd hate for someone completely new to the game to stumble across a thread like this and get the wrong idea.. perpetuating myths is never a good thing.

How is that "truth"? Just because you hold a specific belief does not mean it is true, nor does it mean that everyone believes the same thing. Thats the problem with every society actually, the constant judging. You act like every society is perfect, and it isn't. So society must then be based on an incomplete truth, unless you imply that truth is imperfect. None of that makes any sense by the way.
ok, not sure where you're going with that. Rethink it and we'll discuss it more later.




Thank you captain obvious! But seriously, that has no bearing on the discussion. All you can do at this point is resort to semantics, rhetoric, and silly advice.
And yet you're the one trying to say "They aren't evil because you can't define evil"...


Remember, we are talking about the WH vs the Marauder, and not the people discussing it. Generally only someone really desperate in their argument will resort to completely derailing the discussion.
Except for the fact that I've already shown you plenty of evidence as to why the WH will win in almost every scenerio. In all honesty, the only fight (with the melee classes released so far ) they have a break-even chance with is with the choppa, and possibly the hammerer.

I think you're taking this a bit personally, and perhaps I should mention the fact that I will be rolling one as an alt at some point. I like the class and honestly I even like the direction they're taking it in as far as online balance is concerned, but you're really missing out on the amazing dynamic that chaos as a whole represents if you think that the marauder is the top of it's food chain. It's power lies in the horror of demons come to life, in the nearly unstoppable Chaos warriors, in the ranks of mutated beatmen,and in the masses of unwashed barbarians... if you change one too much the others lose what makes them special.

My biggest concern is that people are going to warp an outstanding IP that I've been following for over a decade. It's a silly thing to find important, but over the years I've met some really good friends and been entertained for many dull hours by Warhammer and it's universe. I don't want to see it sink to the level of that other game and it's squidfaced spaceship pilots with lasers for the sake of a few bucks or the cries of spoiled children.

[Foofmonger]

It's up for debate since you decided that "they aren't evil, just misunderstood". And if you really believe that about the nazi's I suggest you do some serious realigning of your moral compass.;)


I don't think any man is evil.. or good.. it is not about my moral compass. I realize that regardless of what I think, it doesn't make it true.


You have yet to show even the slightest signs of knowledge on the subject. I'd hate for someone completely new to the game to stumble across a thread like this and get the wrong idea.. perpetuating myths is never a good thing.


This is ironic at best


ok, not sure where you're going with that. Rethink it and we'll discuss it more later.


This should probably be your response to most of these.



And yet you're the one trying to say "They aren't evil because you can't define evil"...



No, you fundamentally do not understand. It is not about the definiton, you can obviously define it. It is about applying it through judgments towards other people. No person is qualified to judge another as good or evil because they are just concepts, not reality.


Except for the fact that I've already shown you plenty of evidence as to why the WH will win in almost every scenerio. In all honesty, the only fight (with the melee classes released so far ) they have a break-even chance with is with the choppa, and possibly the hammerer.


Except that you haven't. If needed, go back and read how the chain of post works. You have yet to really counter my arguments. You obviously think you have, but the simple fact that your only recourse of action was to derail this topic should indicate why you have not.



My biggest concern is that people are going to warp an outstanding IP that I've been following for over a decade. It's a silly thing to find important, but over the years I've met some really good friends and been entertained for many dull hours by Warhammer and it's universe. I don't want to see it sink to the level of that other game and it's squidfaced spaceship pilots with lasers for the sake of a few bucks or the cries of spoiled children.

So what? Things evolve and change. Being resistant to these inevitable changes is pointless, all you will do is stress yourself out.

This last point really shows your motivation on the subject. I have no such attachments to the class, or the lore. So I look at it from an unbiased perspective. Do you honestly think I care which imaginary character wins on some internet forum debate? It should be apparant that I just have far too much free time.

[Creslan]

Simple fact is, your WH is going to be weak to the Black Orc, Chosen and Blackguard, so avoid these guys because they will have your number.

Against other melee dps, it's a toss up. Everyone has a plan til they get hit.

[Esmer]

wow.....epic thread lol but yeah i think lore wise it all depends there are so many things that could lead to one of them winning i think that the witch hunter has a bit better chance of winning (even tho i hate those stupid looking retards ^^) but a marauder could also quite easily win

[Overpowdered Rouge]

I know I know, lets do chosen vs a common knight this time!! /sarcasm off

atleast do one that isent a huge miss match

[DGreV]

Marauder would so kick a Witch Hunters Sigmar lovin asp lozl

[Oxygen.]

Tantacle grab + claw in the face.

[Krulltak]

Tantacle grab + claw in the face.


+ Anti-Chaos energy Holy Water+ very elite training+ more anti-Chaos trinkets and such+ gun to the face=

[MaeglinIX]

My feeling is this:

In the game I think the Witch Hunter will have a slight advantage (even though all melee dps vs. melee dps come down to gear and skill). As far as I know:

-The Witch Hunter is supposedly clever. This says "stealth class" to me (though it might not be). The advantage is the WH could approach to medium range and start the fight with a pistol shot to soften the target.

-The WH as a melee dps character isn't going to suck close up. My guess is they won't deal cosistant dps, but will do slight damage while building up their target's pain (or whatever) until they can execute for (comparatively) massive damage.

The slight range advantage is huge, so I think the fight is going to go like:

WH opens with a shot and closes to melee.

WH and Marauder go toe to toe for a while as the WH brings the Marauder into "cofession" range.

WH executes for big damage and subsequently wins the fight (note, I don't necessarily think the "execute" is a killing blow, but enough damage to put the WH far ahead in health).

-------

This is by no means a hopeless situation for the Marauder though. During that middle part where it's toe to toe, the Marauder will (probably) have the advantage in damage output which (especially if he has the gear advantage) can and will be used to close out the fight very quickly before the WH has access to an executing ability.


==========


In terms of Lore, well, I don't know too much about that. However, I feel the GW in general tends to stack things in Human's (Empire's) favor when it comes to combat. The other races win though numbers while the Humans generally seem to win through quality/equipment. As a result I think the lore would almost always give the WH an advantage in a 1v1 situation because he has the right tools for the job. However, I doubt Chaos would ever send just 1 Marauder where it could be helped.

[Foofmonger]

-The Witch Hunter is supposedly clever. This says "stealth class" to me (though it might not be). The advantage is the WH could approach to medium range and start the fight with a pistol shot to soften the target.


There is no stealth in WAR. Also, we know that the WH main pistol attack at range does very little damage unless you hit someone in the back, so that situation would only work if the Marauder never saw the WH until he got shot.


-The WH as a melee dps character isn't going to suck close up. My guess is they won't deal cosistant dps, but will do slight damage while building up their target's pain (or whatever) until they can execute for (comparatively) massive damage.


This is true.

The slight range advantage is huge, so I think the fight is going to go like:


Not really. The WH pistol attack as described is not very strong unless you hit them in the back, and the Marauder has a tentacle grab to catch people who are far away form him.



WH and Marauder go toe to toe for a while as the WH brings the Marauder into "cofession" range.


The Marauder has three primary mutations, one that does high consistent dps, one that does amazing burst dps/positonals, and one for aoe/knockdowns. It would depend on whats the best against the WH. But I don't see him building a lot of points when he keeps getting knocked to his butt.

[MaeglinIX]

I'm really new to these forums and it would appear that I've missed a ton of the latest game/class mechanics information, so thanks for going through all that :)

I'm actually really glad that the WH won't have stealth since that seems to bring which ever class has it serious pain because stealth is such an odd ability to balance.

The tentacle grab sounds awesome/brutal.

====

In light of this, it'd be almost impossible to tell who'd win, but I'd almost have to give it to the Marauder. The only factor which at least *I* don't know is whether or not the WH will be given anti Chaos specific abilities (like Paladins had anti undead specific abilities). My guess is not since Chaos is a player race, but they would certainly be a deal breaker if they did get them.

However I still bet in many ways it has to do with who gets the jump. I could still see the WH jumping ahead with a shot-from-behind opener. The fight may actually favor the WH in the chaos of two groups fighting each other, but in such a scenario the melee dps would probably be on other targets first.

[Foofmonger]

Agreed, if the Marauder is not paying attention and the WH can get a couple shots to the back in before engaing, the Marauder will be hurting.

[Gorn]

Unless your going to say one is clearly more skilled than the other it all depends on the circumstance.

A normal human can still kill you even after taking serious damage.Mind you it's not nearly a common thing, but there have been cases where a person has been shot, sometimes more than once, and still killed the person that shot them. It depends on where you are shot and your mental toughness the continue despite the damage.

The Witch hunter may well take him out in one shot if the shot hits somewhere that ensures death in one shot. That depends on his ability to shoot a person running at him at full speed in a vital spot. Obviously if the Marauder is simply standing off at range unaware he loses.

The marauder may close the distance after being shot and kill the Witch Hunter, cause lets be fair it only takes on swing to kill the Witch Hunter just like it only takes one bullet to kill the Marauder. However that doesn't mean the Marauder would live through the damage for too much longer having a couple of 3 inch holes in him. So a tie.

If the Witch Hunter turns a corner, and there is the Marauder 3 ft away the Marauder wins in my mind. He's close enough already to kill him.

[Foofmonger]

Unless your going to say one is clearly more skilled than the other it all depends on the circumstance.

A normal human can still kill you even after taking serious damage.Mind you it's not nearly a common thing, but there have been cases where a person has been shot, sometimes more than once, and still killed the person that shot them. It depends on where you are shot and your mental toughness the continue despite the damage.

The Witch hunter may well take him out in one shot if the shot hits somewhere that ensures death in one shot. That depends on his ability to shoot a person running at him at full speed in a vital spot. Obviously if the Marauder is simply standing off at range unaware he loses.

The marauder may close the distance after being shot and kill the Witch Hunter, cause lets be fair it only takes on swing to kill the Witch Hunter just like it only takes one bullet to kill the Marauder. However that doesn't mean the Marauder would live through the damage for too much longer having a couple of 3 inch holes in him. So a tie.

If the Witch Hunter turns a corner, and there is the Marauder 3 ft away the Marauder wins in my mind. He's close enough already to kill him.

Also, we know that Marauders will be able to use a "tentacle grab" ability in game.

Not sure if that changes your viewpoint, but that kinda helps him at some kind of range.

[MaeglinIX]

I'm starting to see this as a battle between front-loaded and back-loaded damage.

The Marauder would have more front-loaded and the WH back-loaded. In such a fight, I think the advantage almost always lies with the front loaded damage. A missed execute from the WH or an execute that the Marauder is pretty much a loss for the WH.

In addition, I just watched that video that had the Marauder test in it, and assuming things survive in more or less that fashion, the Marauder could easily knockdown/stun the WH has he gets into execution range which is devastating. Any delay to the big damage portion of the WH's damage rotation spells disaster in my opinion.

Very interesting.

[Gorn]

::Airhorn blast:: Time out! ::makes the T symbol with hands:: We've jumped from lore, to not lore just a little bit of fluff info, to real world physics, to War game mechanics. Which one are we basing this off from?

I went off from an enhanced human with natural weapons vs a normal trained human with man made weapons. That was the simplest base I could find that didn't seem to conflict with, the guidelines set before I posted. I think. I dunno, I'm lost now.

[Foofmonger]

::Airhorn blast:: Time out! ::makes the T symbol with hands:: We've jumped from lore, to not lore just a little bit of fluff info, to real world physics, to War game mechanics. Which one are we basing this off from?

I went off from an enhanced human with natural weapons vs a normal trained human with man made weapons. That was the simplest base I could find that didn't seem to conflict with, the guidelines set before I posted. I think. I dunno, I'm lost now.

Eh who knows, originally it was lore based. But since this topic is so old, I just felt like posting anything really (I didn't necro it).

My last couple posts were game-mechanics based.

[MrProphet]

You guys all missed the fact that in the WH description it says that the pistols are most effective at short-medium range and are wildly inaccurate at long range. :p

[Eldrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc&feature=related

Guy with sword = Marauder.
Guy with gun = Witch Hunter.

[Lann]

witch hunters are squishy, marauders are slightly heavier and durable.

Forget the lore nonsense, basic mechanics dictates that squishy rogue type dps (WH) will be dead before not so squishy light tank dps (marauder).

Its amazing how so many people get hard about chars with guns in a fantasy mmo, if it was a sci fi one all these people would be rolling melee classes that use swords ;p

A Marauder that specs in single target damage, will have insane one on one dps (which is what im rolling, leave the multi target dmg to the nukers). If mythics track record with light tank dps classes (DAoC= Berserkers,Savages,Mercenarys, Maulers etc) are anything to go by i predict that Marauders will initially be horribly overpowered, before being hit seriously by the nerfbat in about a years time after release :mrgreen:

Im not cynical or anything like that..............

[Oxygen.]

If the Marauder can stay close to the WH, then he will kill him.
If the WH can stay away from the Marauder, then he will kill it.

It'll be a rather fair fight, but will likely require more timing. If the game works with some sort of combo system, then you might wish to keep your ''GET CLOSE TO MEH!'' cooldown on your Marauder until you can dish out this nuke, and as the WH, you may wish to burn your ''STAY AWAH FROM ME!'' cooldown until you can blast away your target.

It'll be close though. Ranged damage advantage VS thoughness advantage, really.

It may look like THIS LINK (http://badelements.net/bloodrayne.jpg) , though. I hope it will.

[Gemini]

Guys, really, look up info on the Witch Hunter, they're gun from what we've seen has been used almost exclusively at point-blank range. Your not gonna see a Witch Hunter kiting people, they are melee dps.

[Oxygen.]

Guys, really, look up info on the Witch Hunter, they're gun from what we've seen has been used almost exclusively at point-blank range. Your not gonna see a Witch Hunter kiting people, they are melee dps.

5 yard range still > 1 yard range, and if the game is proprely non-laggy * wow*, well then it'll be likely possible for a witch hunter to kite a melee class.

[Foofmonger]

5 yard range still > 1 yard range, and if the game is proprely non-laggy * wow*, well then it'll be likely possible for a witch hunter to kite a melee class.

Melee classes don't have 1 yard ranges hehe, its usually about 5 in most games.

A WH is not going to kite a melee class well. Most melee classes have plenty of tools to prevent kiting from classes that are designed to kite (ie rdps), a class that doesn't have good kiting tools (a WH), isn't going to kite many melee DPS.

Furthermore, the WH pistol from what we know, is neither usable on the move, or does very much damage at range unless you hit someone in the back. I.e., its not gonna happen.

A WH who tries to kite a melee class will do almost no damage, get caught, and have to fight in melee anyway.

[Warmaster tibs]

I may be an idiot when it comes to WAR lore but game wize all the mdps classes will be balanced agenst eachother and I say the Witch Hunter being trained in killing chaos would be able to outmanuver (sp) the marauder and his gun being able to 1 shot the Marauder right in the head.

[WarlordNubcakes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc&feature=related

Guy with sword = Marauder.
Guy with gun = Witch Hunter.

Don't even compare Indiana Jones to the Witch Hunter. Because I will prove you wrong to the point were your head 'asplodes from insanity.

[Wild]

I think in that duel we will hear"Get over here!"when marauder crazy tentacle sprouts from his arm grabbing Witch Hunter through his chest bringing him too Marauder and judging him on eternal doom.

"Tentacle Grab-Pulls your target towards you"is ultimate range ability of marauder :twisted:.

[exx]

this is what will happen if a wh tries to rely on sniping to kill a marauder

marauder = lion

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EFd8WEGUfjk

[exx]

but like the video, if thers 4 wh sniping they could win, but he will get one ide say

wh arent range dps, they are mele dps that use there guns for the medium range stuff like every other fighter uses a chunk skill for medium range stuff

[Eliphas-WorldBearer]

From what I heard Witch Hunters do bonus damage to undead, demons and chaos so admittingly its the Witch Hunter will win UNLESS the Marauder gets a tentacle mutation:mrgreen:

[Razma]

Wasnt that reserved for special achievements?Like collect 1000 dwarf beards and get some extra dmg?But that info could be outdated by now.

Anyway,as long as the With Hunter doesnt get to strike from behind I dont think the marauder will fall he.

[Lann]

I think there are a lot of people massively confused about the WH, just cos it has a gun it does not make it a viable ranged dpser. It has been stated that the best damage from the gun will be at point blank range and it will be severely ineffective from medium to long range.

You need to stop thinking of it as a gun and more of a knife that you stick in people and it goes boom.

So thats why i think Marauder will own a WH, they both have to get up close for max effectiveness. The heavier more durable Marauder will rip the WH a new one!

[Eliphas-WorldBearer]

From the videos Ive seen on the Witch Hunter the flint lock seems to be viable constant range DPS instead of just a finisher/opener...

PS-Ill post the video when I can find it

[Mikhail87]

Witch Hunter all the way!

You seem to forget how much skill and finesse it takes to wield a rapier. The Marauder is a brute of a fighter who just swings his arms around trying to maul things. The Witch Hunter would dance around him stabbing between his plates with his anointed blade and then blow his head off with a well placed shot.

Seriously people...skill beats brute force.

[Foofmonger]

Witch Hunter all the way!

You seem to forget how much skill and finesse it takes to wield a rapier. The Marauder is a brute of a fighter who just swings his arms around trying to maul things. The Witch Hunter would dance around him stabbing between his plates with his anointed blade and then blow his head off with a well placed shot.

Seriously people...skill beats brute force.

Calling a Norscan "not skilled" in the art of warfare is like calling a Black Orc "weak".

[Zacharius]

Calling a Norscan "not skilled" in the art of warfare is like calling a Black Orc "weak".

Indeed. Norscans are born into battle. Most of them live in such desolate areas that every day they have to fight to survive. If anything the Witch Hunter is the less skilled fighter

[Foofmonger]

Indeed. Norscans are born into battle. Most of them live in such desolate areas that every day they have to fight to survive. If anything the Witch Hunter is the less skilled fighter

Yea, but its funny cause the Empire in-lore has the same mentality as some of these Empire players.

Empire Attitude:
Oh we are much more skilled and specifically train just to fight you and brink all sorts of blessed trinkets and such.

Norscan Attitude: I am born to fight, I don't need to train, I fight every day just to stay alive, you city living warm weathered wimps don't stand a chance.

[Zacharius]

Hmm. Been fighting my whole life just to survive. Or been training for just afew years to "kill all Chaos worshipers in the name of Sigmar"....Yeah...I'll go with the guy who has been fighting since before he could walk(Hell, since he was in the WOMB because of those Norse women)

[WarlordNubcakes]

Yeah. And you usually dont just win a battle on the fact of "Skill" either. Skill and Brute force alone are somewhat equal. However, combined, this proves to be an unbeatable strategy. Ex: A wimpy man with lots of skill in guns will always be equal against a muscley man who uses an axe.

[Zacharius]

Yeah. And you usually dont just win a battle on the fact of "Skill" either. Skill and Brute force alone are somewhat equal. However, combined, this proves to be an unbeatable strategy. Ex: A wimpy man with lots of skill in guns will always be equal against a muscley man who uses an axe.

And crab claws. Don't forget the crab claws

[Lann]

Guys, seriously, forget about all this "lore" nonsense. Its all about simple game mechanics, this silliness about it takes a lot of skill to wield a rapier and the marauder is just a lumbering brute is just laughable. DPS classes will be fundamentely the same with slight "career" diferences to appeal to different types of players/fans. Saying a witch hunter will own a marauder because he is the scourge of chaos and the bane of evil and punishes all heretics blah blah blah.

It will be based on two things, quality of equipment (no where near as important as wow thankfully, but a factor none the less) and player skill (right tactics selected, most efficient use of abilities class skills).

Being good at an mmo doesnt hinge all on the class you choose, its knowing that characters strengths and weakness and how to play to them.

That being said Marauders > all other dps classes (but thats just a preference thing!)

[Origomar]

I was reading some of the earlier stuff this thread is soo friken long...and i was just going to say EVEN if the witchunter doesnt get his first shot off he STILL has a chance with his rapier as you can see in the mark of chaos cinematic at around 2:19 a REGULAR EMPIRE SOLDIER takes down a chaos by simpy slitting his sword through the lines of a chaos and jabbing it into his insides. And technicaly a witchunter being a lot faster than a chaos with right timing could do this if his pistol shot did not work.

[WarlordNubcakes]

Last time I checked, this was not the crappy RTS called "Mark of Chaos" but a supposedly well put together MMORPG called "Warhammer: Age of Reckoning." ;)

[jixredpalm]

I usually win 1on1s with witch hunters.

[kechop]

I usually win 1on1s with witch hunters.

old thread is fckn old , stop ressurecting them , thank you

[Firemarshall]

In game as of right now I destroy Witch Hunters, and its always a great laugh. generally this is what happens. Witch Hunters pops out of stealth,and usually gets the 1st hit kinda tickles. Then the beauty begins (Slasher) weapon from annihilation quest procs,and it usually does on its 1st hit. Then the 2 Karak stone jewelry pieces proc and bam throw in piercing bite, and the WH has no armor by this point which all takes place in about 3 secs they are trying to pic up there hat, and there arse to try and make a run for it but the next hit is so hard they dont even have time to kiss there arse goodbye before there tossng Sigmars salad in the afterlife :D.

[Cantankerous]

nice troll post firemarshall

[Vadar]

In game as of right now I destroy Witch Hunters, and its always a great laugh. generally this is what happens. Witch Hunters pops out of stealth,and usually gets the 1st hit kinda tickles. Then the beauty begins (Slasher) weapon from annihilation quest procs,and it usually does on its 1st hit. Then the 2 Karak stone jewelry pieces proc and bam throw in piercing bite, and the WH has no armor by this point which all takes place in about 3 secs they are trying to pic up there hat, and there arse to try and make a run for it but the next hit is so hard they dont even have time to kiss there arse goodbye before there tossng Sigmars salad in the afterlife :D.

you just replaced Marauder with Witch hunter from a post you made in the Bright Wizard froum didn't you...:D

[Vargg]

bunch of nonsense

except the witch hunter bypasses your armor with a single ability (feinted positioning) while you need a quest reward, 2 pieces of nerfed jewelry, and a wasted tactic slot. Oh, and the only place all three armor debuffs stack is in your dreams.

[Puppeteer]

old thread is fckn old , stop ressurecting them , thank you

I find it ironic that this was posted right before Firemarshall's post about 9 months ago.

[Ineas]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ba1_1180471616

Kinetic energy transfer is about the same ( 5.56 fires a much lighter, faster round vs heavy, slower round of the musket). Notice that the steel used in the demonstration is from a modern ships hull, which is much higher quality than anything a chaos chosen would have.

The point I'm trying to make is that a chosen isn't that great. In fact, lorewise vs just about every class that's been released so far he would get stomped. He's just a human with what boils down to be a genetic defect vs the warrior elite from several societies. If they were all that great they would have become chosen already.

He is a human of extra ordinary power (chosen by the Gods) wearing a suit of armour that has been enhanced by the very same Gods. Of course you cant put petty logic behind it, in many cases chosen are even fused with the suit of armour making it a part of their skin. Even tabletop wise its way superior to the plate being used by the empire, only the dwarven gromril armour comes near.

Dont care if its a necro thread, putting logic in a discussion like this is stupid :p

[Arthuriel]

its funny how last year, marauders could beat witch hunters pretty easily

now, not so much


my WH eats chosen, i dont think a marauder could stand a chance (note, ive never actually seen a 40 marauder while on my WH)

[Snorgrind]

its funny how last year, marauders could beat witch hunters pretty easily

now, not so much


my WH eats chosen, i dont think a marauder could stand a chance (note, ive never actually seen a 40 marauder while on my WH)
well thats becouse pre 1.2 nerf we had nice tools to kill WHs like disorient or touch of rot which were criting for 700 that time add high parry build with riposte and WHs were just melting before your eyes .... but as it is now only retardet WHs cant kill mara when they attack him from stealth and with no stealth mara have higher chance but still low even in duel spec

[Thorek Ironbrow]

If by some chance the shot misses/is deflected, I think the battle would go on to be epic



[19:30]Witch Hunter shoots Marauder in the head
[19:30]The bullet hits the Marauders skullcase at a bad angle and bounces off
[19:31]The Marauder charges at the Witch Hunter
[19:31]The Witch Hunter frantically tries to reload his gun
[19:34]The Witch Hunter has almost reloaded his gun!
[19:34]The Marauder runs in screaming his war cry and chops the pistol wielding arm off of the Witch Hunter
[19:35]The Marauder impales the Witch Hunter
[19:35]The Witch Hunter is dead
[19:35]The Marauder proceeds to furiously chop at the Witch Hunter, not realising he is dead
[01:54]A pool of flesh, blood, splintered bone and what else used to be inside the Witch Hunter now lays, strewn all over the floor
[01:55]The Marauder realised he was dead. He sounds small victory cry as Tzeentch blesses him.


Aww yeah.

[TankNOM131]

that is how it works... UNLESS you go by the cinematics

first, the witch hunter shoots at the marauder
marauder takes shot in stride and charges
WH takes sword out as the marauder slashes over head
WH dodges and stabs the marauder in back three times
marauder staggers away and turns around
Wh lifts pistol and puts the barrel into the Marauders helm
the arm is lifted as the shot rings point blank from within the helmet
marauder goes down

other possibility dealing with a different part of the video

marauder gets the drop on WH somehow and impales
wh falls and seems to be dead (like BW)
marauder turns to kill another
WH gets up and gets a flurry of attacks from behind
marauder swings to his back only to have his arm swing at air
WH used feinted positing and is now back stabbing him
marauder swipes at sword and it breaks
WH staggers back and pulls out pistol
Marauder charges arm in the air to slash as the bullet rings through the helm and take shards of metal into the marauders chaotic brain

game over

marauder almost always loses:
if you follow board game, marauder is one of the weakest units to be used en-masse
If you follow the cinematics, the marauder cant kill a BW with impale and cant kill a SW chick
if you follow the game, the marauder probably has his best chance, but in the end gets a chest full of absolution and has his lies incinerated (burn away lies)