Black guard weapons

[Javelin]

will black guards only be able to wield halberds? or will they be able to use other kind of weapons? and how about ranged weapons? will non-ranged dps classes still be able to use crossbows, bows etc

[Lord Tareq]

There is an entire topic about this already, but to summarize it; no one knows yet :) (except the guys designing the game, but they don't tell us yet ^^ )

Only things officially known about them is that they use hatred, that they use halberds, that they are a tank class, and that they look extremely cool.8-)

[Jinsei]

There's concept art out of Druchii one-handed swords and shields which one can only assume will be Black Guard-usable.

[Javelin]

I sure hope that they can use other weapons too, halberds would get a little dull and I'm no big fan of 'em... swords and shields are cooler:D

[Kellaris]

I sure hope that they can use other weapons too, halberds would get a little dull and I'm no big fan of 'em... swords and shields are cooler:D

If You play Hammerer, You fight with hammers. Not axes. Not spears. Not swords
Swordmaster fights with sword. And not with hammer. And not halbard
Black Guard use halbards. If You want sword and shield, consider Black Orc.

And I'm 100% sure that BG can use other weapons including RXB. But they won't have any skills for that weapons and most propably many of their skills will be "halbard-only"

Also, shield are not popular equipment among the Druchii. Looking at TT, only Heavy cavalary and basic warriors can use it. Druchii prefer to use both hands to kill.

[DeathClown]

I'd love a tower shield (a really big one) combined with a two-hander, the biggest weapon you can find. Warhammer, Halberd, 2-hand axe and maybe a huge longsword :)

[Zul]

Judging by the dark elf shield concept art, I think that black guards will use the ol' sword and board in addition to the halberd. If they don't get to use swords and shields I wont complain at all. I love the halberd too much to give up a class based around the weapon because I cant use a more traditional tanking method.:cool:

[vazzaroth]

The concept are shown at the same time as the BG pic was all Dark elf style swords.

Anyway, I plan to use Halberds on mine, and I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that a Halberd BG will be able to tank as well, or close to it, as a Sword and Board one. Please?

[Kaotik]

As long as we get crossbows or something to shoot runners with I'm happy =D

[Dracallo]

Make the halbred a scythe style weapon and I would be all over it!

[Dyst]

I wonder if these are Dark Elf swords?
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_50.jpg
Looks like it. And maybe Black Guard could use them (think so).

Here's a cool shield too.
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_47.jpg

Hope this was new to some. :P

[Galtrok]

I wonder if these are Dark Elf swords?
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_50.jpg
Looks like it. And maybe Black Guard could use them (think so).

Here's a cool shield too.
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_47.jpg

Hope this was new to some. :P

Awesome. Awesome to the max.

[ravn0s]

I think those are Witch Elf daggers, not swords.

[Jinsei]

I think those are Witch Elf daggers, not swords.
Yeah, they're listed in the Warhammer Alliance Gallery as witch elf daggers :confused:

Damn, I thought they'd be Black Guard swords! :mad:

[Andaroth]

For anyone that played D&D, they made use of weapon profiencies. You fighter could use any weapon he saw lying around. But in his warrior training he only speicalized in a couple weapons. So say he trained in Maces and Swords but happened upon a magical axe. He could use the axe. but at a penalty.
Not saying this could be the case with BG, but if they trained with Helberts, maybe they would not know how to use a 2 handed mace as well.

Just a thought.........

[Creslan]

I kinda like the DAOC approach. You pick your weapon then you can only use that line unless you respec. I do however see the problems that arise with only specializing with 1 weapon. If the Black Guard can do his job without a shield, then thats fine, all information that I've seen so far leads me to believe this is the case.

Thats another idea from DAOC I like, keeping the shield a tool, and not another piece of armor. I always thought it odd that in some games throwing on a big flat slab of medal or wood on my arm suddenly doubled my armor. I would like to see Mythic keep what they did with the shield in DAOC for WAR. Have it provide block from the front, increase on block chance for arrows, and let you guard other players with it, but not an instant 5-7k armor. If it does only provide an armor boost, it shouldn't be in play if attacked from the rear.

I want to see what benefits a shield offers in WAR before I decide if it is something I would use as a tank.

[Dyst]

I think those are Witch Elf daggers, not swords.

Actually I don't think so (note, I could be wrong).

You are right, there are pictures listed as Witch Elf daggers, such as this:
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/CncArt0907_26.jpg
You can see here from the length also, these are indeed daggers.

These are found further down the site (concept art page), though, and it says nothing of daggers about them. Also if you look at the length it looks more like swords:
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_50.jpg

Just my theory anyway.

[Andaroth]

Get a BG angry enough and he will just pick up his opponent up by the ankles and swing them around as a weapon.

Serious note. I am wondering how the best Helberts will look. Never really saw helberts done very much in most games.

[Zakiya]

Get a BG angry enough and he will just pick up his opponent up by the ankles and swing them around as a weapon.

Serious note. I am wondering how the best Helberts will look. Never really saw helberts done very much in most games.

Halberd, dude. Halberd.

Halberd's are like spears, probably just swing them left and right, maybe a few overhead cleaves. Look down a post for more info *thumbs up*.

EDIT: Heh, wow... tool moment.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Halbred, dude. Halbred.

Halbred's are like spears, probably just swing them left and right, maybe a few overhead cleaves.
lol, halberd.

halberds often look either like the lemmet of a sword on top of a staff, or as i know them, a double bladed axe with a spear point on top of a staff.
the point to thrust stab, the axes to chop, cleave, and can also be used to pull someone of his horse

[Lemures]

I saw it stated by Mythic that the primary weapon of choice for Black Guards will be polearms. They mentioned Glaives and some others... and said the Black Guards would be the only class in the game able to use them.

[Dracallo]

I hope they have atleast one sythe looking "grim reaper" styled polarm. They would almost be silly to not atleast have ONE!

[Zunjin]

I saw it stated by Mythic that the primary weapon of choice for Black Guards will be polearms. They mentioned Glaives and some others... and said the Black Guards would be the only class in the game able to use them.

Glaives are a mix of a halberd and scythe right? That is aleast how I remembered them from diablo 2. The blade on the top of the spear shaped like a cresent moon almost. Ehm, someone just show a picture how a glaive looks please :p

[Jinsei]

Glaives are a mix of a halberd and scythe right? That is aleast how I remembered them from diablo 2. The blade on the top of the spear shaped like a cresent moon almost. Ehm, someone just show a picture how a glaive looks please :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaive

WIKIPEDIA TO THE RESCUE! :D

[Zunjin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaive

WIKIPEDIA TO THE RESCUE! :D

Wikipedia sure got everything :p Thanks for the link

[Dracallo]

Yea those look great also!

Archlord has some pretty decent looking halbreds... They just werent used much and really underpowered...

[Yvo]

Well, the "halberd" the black guard is using in the main picture we have looks a hell of a lot more like a standard DE spear than a halberd. So I'd assume they are able to use more than halberds, at least spears.

[Javelin]

anyone think draiches will be in the game? (executioner swords)

[Dyst]

As I've said, I think they should be able to use more than just halberds/spears. Like 1-handed swords, maybe 2-handed too. If anything then just for having the freedom to do so.

But I think there should be some halberd specific abilities, or maybe ability to specialize, to add incentive to use it.

Hope we find out soon. :)

[Jinsei]

As I've said, I think they should be able to use more than just halberds/spears. Like 1-handed swords, maybe 2-handed too. If anything then just for having the freedom to do so.

But I think there should be some halberd specific abilities, or maybe ability to specialize, to add incentive to use it.

Hope we find out soon. :)
The latest grabbag says Black Guards are not limited to halberds. Nice.

[Barundin162]

I will be using Halbards myself, but those swords are so Metal

[Necrophyt]

I personally like fist weapons. My dream weapon would be something Altir uses in Assasin's Creed, cept on the top of the wrist and make the blade bigger.

[Zeke]

well todays newsletter grab bag said that BGs aren't limited to halberds. :shock:

[Barundin162]

well todays newsletter grab bag said that BGs aren't limited to halberds. :shock:

Indeed, I imagine they will be able to use some of the standard weapons...Great Sword, Sword and Board, probably 2 Hand Weapons...

...but still come on...the Halbard is SO Brutal looking...


(I am gonna use a Halbard but I want my Character to show having a sword on him like the art, even if I cant use it.)

[Zunjin]

I will bet there will be attacks you cannot perform without the halberd. It will be the iconic weapon for the class.

[Gemini]

I will bet there will be attacks you cannot perform without the halberd. It will be the iconic weapon for the class.

Or at least a tactic for halbreds that makes you hit more, hit harder, crit more, crit harder, gain more morale per hit, something that can give you an advantedge with a halbred if you so choose to use it, but not so powerful to make it the only viable choice.

[smagasins]

I saw a picture that showed the Black Guard dual wielding swords this who also be a cool mechanic with hatred. Also if you look at the concept art yo see two swords in his belt. I think my dream senario would be charging in with a halberd (sp?) chopping down the first few guys then slinging it on my back and drawing my dual sword and just going into a blade frenzy

[Rasek]

well todays newsletter grab bag said that BGs aren't limited to halberds. :shock:

That means you believed they were a halberd only class (except sword+shield)? :|:|:|:|:|:|:|

[Kellaris]

That means you believed they were a halberd only class (except sword+shield)? :|:|:|:|:|:|:|

I'm certain they can use dual swords and draichs, but sword+shield is an insult to BG idea. The only reason to equip this is to look good on cold one.

[Delolith]

It is an insult to the Swordmaster idea even more than it is for BGs. But it seems the company is probably trying to accomodate some needs or maybe it is some feedback from high end guilds that want some PvE cookie cutting and stereotyping some archetypes. And that is why you see the Path of Vule for Swordmasters in which they will be using sword + shield (.../sign). So you were saying it is an insult for the BG idea....now think again a poor swordmaster with longsword and shield. I am sure you will be far happier being a BG with sword and shield than that poor fellow. Let's just hope those "defenssive" builds are not the apha and omega playing a tank and rather allow you to spec just a bit more defenssively compared to the spec used with a 2h weapon. And I also hope that the 2h spec will also have some extra unique defenssive maneuvers that you cannot perform with sword and board.

Delolith

[Tlear]

Sword + shield is not just pve.. There will be tons of times when you will want to use shield in pvp.

[Delolith]

I know they are supposed to be effective in PvP as well and that is what the company is trying to implement. All I am saying is that a tank with sword+shield is always gonna be favored at LEAST PvEwise by the big guilds especially when the city siege last stage is PvE oriented too killing the imporant NPCs. So all I am saying I hope we don't see high end defenssive cookie cutter builds made for raids/city sieges and let's hope the offenssive builds that ARE the iconic ones for some classes remain at least as viable if not more since they are what the class is about.

Delolith

[Selendor]

There's some interesting thoughts on the issue of halberds being effective for both offense and defense and descriptions of how they've been done in the past here. (http://raelimar.blogspot.com) (Scroll down to the halberd post) He briefly mentions it in a couple other posts, but the one at the bottom is the biggest.

[Rasek]

You guys should put aside your RP a bit.

You wont see BGs beeing restrict to halberds. You will see BGs with all the weapons allowed to them. Saying its impossible to see a BG with a sword+shield is stupid(MMO wise) because he is a freaking tank, and tanks uses shield.

Associating defensive, reflective, deflective skills with a big 2handed stick IS game breaking, so you can take for sure that the MAIN defensive skills/abilities will require a shield. You will be able to use a few generic defensive skills with your big stick, but thats it, its common sense.

Regardless of what TT game is and the RP fan boys say want, this is a massive multiplayer game. There are archetypes, classes, roles to be balanced out, so trust me when i say that the RP guys wishes are just details in the path to the greater good( an enjoyable, fun, balanced games for the MMO crowd).

See, there will be RPs server where a BG using a shield will be something rare, due to the crowd taste for whatever tradition they follow.

So you will see BGs running around with axes, swords, halberds or whatever other 2hander they can use. And you will see them changing to 1hander+board depending on situation. Thats a MMO, where RP is an option not a rule.

And you know the chances of a 2hander beeing fully efective when "tanking", and its really low, close to 0. But not impossible, the new class on the next WoW expansion is a tank that doesnt use shields, so its possible, but unlike to happen.

edited: if any of you saw the last vids, players droped really fast under ff, just like WoW, so yeah, if you want to live a longer you will find yourself in a lot situations pulling a shield out.

[Lexalopolis]

Using a shield is certainly the best way to maximize your defensive options, but wouldn't using a halberd give you some defensive options as well? Certainly not to the same extent, but I don't see it as being out of the realm of possibility for the halberd to have a few defensive skills that bridge the gap between using a shield and not using one at all. For example, polearms are relatively long weapons, trumped perhaps only by certain spears and cavalry lances. The halberd itself also had the ability to make swipes and slashes in addition to thrusts. Couldn't that translate into skills that let you force the enemy back, trip or spear them on the advance, or cause critical damage if they come within a certain range? Granted, you don't have the benefit of a wall of steel (which, based on the mechanics for the Chosen I just heard about, could be a real pain to get past), but if that other guy wants to get in close he's going to pay for it. Combine that with hatred, and I could certainly see a Black Guard with a halberd as a daunting opponent to get past.

Then again, maybe I really just want to see a Black Guard smack an overzealous Elf senseless on the first charge!

[Vernal]

Short answer yes, they can use swords + shields


Here are some BG swords:
http://www.waaaghpedia.com/index.php?title=Image:Blackguard_arms_04.jpg

And shields:
http://www.waaaghpedia.com/index.php?title=Image:Blackguard_arms_03.jpg

[Kellaris]

Sword + shield is not just pve.. There will be tons of times when you will want to use shield in pvp.

Trust me, I will not. If I would like to use S&B, I would play Black Orc or Chosen

You guys should put aside your RP a bit.

You wont see BGs beeing restrict to halberds. You will see BGs with all the weapons allowed to them. Saying its impossible to see a BG with a sword+shield is stupid(MMO wise) because he is a freaking tank, and tanks uses shield.

Once again, if I will put RP aside, I will choose Black Orc. BO will always be harder to kill than BG and has cool mechanics. If someone do not care about RP and want to roll heavy tank, he should choose BO (Or IB on order side).
BG and BO are supposed to be distinct carrers and this should mean more than different avatars.

This game is based on established IP and Mythic will not change it too much. They have not pot female chosen (and THIS is really stupid MMO-wise) and I hope they will not break elf lore by equiping so called tanks with shield. Becouse elves prefer agility defense and swift, deadly attack over armoured monsters. They are to fragile to be armoured monsters so they fith with "strike first, strike last" idea.
I know that hatred mechanics do not seem to be great example of what I'm saying, but we really do not know how hatred (and BG) really works.


Associating defensive, reflective, deflective skills with a big 2handed stick IS game breaking, so you can take for sure that the MAIN defensive skills/abilities will require a shield. You will be able to use a few generic defensive skills with your big stick, but thats it, its common sense.


From my personal experience, big stick is a great if You want to keep someone on distance and keep him from hitting You. This is how big stick works.


And you know the chances of a 2hander beeing fully efective when "tanking", and its really low, close to 0. But not impossible, the new class on the next WoW expansion is a tank that doesnt use shields, so its possible, but unlike to happen.

So this is what You really think? I have not happen in WoW so it cannot happen in WAR?? Iven if in WoW You have 8?? classes and in WAR You have 24...


Edit:
Short answer yes, they can use swords + shields

Here are some BG swords:
http://www.waaaghpedia.com/index.php?title=Image:Blackguard_arms_04.jpg

And shields:
http://www.waaaghpedia.com/index.php?title=Image:Blackguard_arms_03.jpg

But You know.. Waaghpedia is a fansite.
This piscture on offficial WAR site is just a concept art. We have no idea who will use theese shields. Maybe BG. Maybe NPC. Or maybe jet unknown melee healer.

[Vernal]

Trust me, I will not. If I would like to use S&B, I would play Black Orc or Chosen

Unlike WoW you can actually tank other players instead of being relegated to DPS. So maybe YOU won't want to use a sword and shield, but then you wouldnt be playing the class how its meant to be played then.



Once again, if I will put RP aside, I will choose Black Orc. BO will always be harder to kill than BG and has cool mechanics. If someone do not care about RP and want to roll heavy tank, he should choose BO (Or IB on order side).
BG and BO are supposed to be distinct carrers and this should mean more than different avatars.So are you saying that BGs will be worse tanks than BO or chosen?

This game is based on established IP and Mythic will not change it too much. They have not pot female chosen (and THIS is really stupid MMO-wise) and I hope they will not break elf lore by equiping so called tanks with shield. Becouse elves prefer agility defense and swift, deadly attack over armoured monsters. They are to fragile to be armoured monsters so they fith with "strike first, strike last" idea.
I know that hatred mechanics do not seem to be great example of what I'm saying, but we really do not know how hatred (and BG) really works.Um then why do units like warriors, executioners, cold one knights ect sport shields and heavy plate armor?



From my personal experience, big stick is a great if You want to keep someone on distance and keep him from hitting You. This is how big stick works. I guess you dont have much experience then :p


So this is what You really think? I have not happen in WoW so it cannot happen in WAR?? Iven if in WoW You have 8?? classes and in WAR You have 24...Besides war pretty much every other MMO out there shields give you defensive bonuses. Better defense = better tank

[Delolith]

Not to mention you cannot compare something like a shield against a real Greatsword to a greatsword of Hoeth which supposedly a swordmaster can wield like a willow-wand. If I could swing around a huge weapon like a Greatsword of Hoeth like a stick I am sure it would give me rather a lot of advantage. Plus, Elves are supposed to be agility defenssive based. Using a shield only thing that does is increasing your chance to actually stop an attack but also decreases your chance to dodge that attack cause you actually moving clumsier because of that. Not to mention your swordmanship using a shield is rather clumsier too. Using a shield is actually what I call a state of mind. If you are trained to use a shield you will always be using it and love it...cause that is how you are trained to protect yourself. If you have trained for centuries on agile reflexes and superior swordmanship to stop attacks with a big sword because you can move it like a wooden stick then I would say defending yourself with a shield will seem ALIEN to your technique. Yes of course swordmaster and blackguards have trained to use all weapons around...but they chose their iconic weapon for a reason. And breaking that just for the use of some "high end guilds" theory of things and effectiveness (/spit) I don't think it belongs in this game which is supposed to give something else and mainly to the fans of the game.

Delolith

[Malal]

I think it would be unwise for Mythic to limit weapon choice....and i doubt they will. While Lore says they may only use Halberds and the like think to totally discount is a bit narrow minded.

Mythic has set the trend to make your character as customisable as possible... that will probably continue to weapon choice as well. Plus i mean who else is going to use the shield? Sorcereress? Witch Elf? DE support class?

[Delolith]

I think it would be unwise for Mythic to limit weapon choice....and i doubt they will. While Lore says they may only use Halberds and the like think to totally discount is a bit narrow minded.

Mythic has set the trend to make your character as customisable as possible... that will probably continue to weapon choice as well. Plus i mean who else is going to use the shield? Sorcereress? Witch Elf? DE support class?

I will agree with you and I will say that restricting what a class can use is not very thoughtful in an MMO...but I will also add that they should at least make 2h users of these 2 particular classes as effective to their role due to iconicness (and the role is to tank with one way or another...aka protecting their comrades). And should be implemented in a way that we will not see stupid tactic/weapon dictatorships from big guilds.

Delolith

[Kellaris]

Unlike WoW you can actually tank other players instead of being relegated to DPS. So maybe YOU won't want to use a sword and shield, but then you wouldnt be playing the class how its meant to be played then.
If You are part of Mythic staff and You know something about BG skills and how it is to play BG, share this knowledge.



So are you saying that BGs will be worse tanks than BO or chosen?

Yes, they will be worse in defence. Better in attack.
Are You saying that all 3 carrers will be equal in all aspects of gameplay??


Um then why do units like warriors, executioners, cold one knights ect sport shields and heavy plate armor?

Warriors do not carry heavy armour. They use shields, becouse they are citizen militia, not a professional soldiers.
Exexutioners, do not use shields. Talking about heavy armour.. Try to compare Executioner heavy armour and Chaos Warrioior heavy armour.
Cold On Knights are mounted unit. It is quite hard to dodge anything when You are sitting in the saddle.



I guess you dont have much experience then :p

It is good enough to know a basics about polearms.:rolleyes:


Besides war pretty much every other MMO out there shields give you defensive bonuses. Better defense = better tank
Maybe. But in THIS MMO there is no tank at all. There is defensive fighter. And Defensive Fighter job is not only taking damage. Just like there is no healer, but support. This is one of the reasons why this game is better than others.

[Delolith]

Maybe. But in THIS MMO there is no tank at all. There is defensive fighter. And Defensive Fighter job is not only taking damage. Just like there is no healer, but support. This is one of the reasons why this game is better than others.

QFT. I will agree with you on that. Although I do believe that they will introduce sword+shield to both elven tank classes all I want is for all the builds to be equally viable for the role of the tank (protecting your team)...which is not just to take punishment in this game.

Delolith

P.S I just want to play Swordmasters for what they are iconicly and for what they represent mechanicwise+tacticwise on the battlefield. By gimping that role just by making a more effective sword+shield build I don't think it belongs in this class...

[Vernal]

If You are part of Mythic staff and You know something about BG skills and how it is to play BG, share this knowledge.

Since Im not part of Mythic and all we have is information released. They say a BG is tank, which means tough defense. The high elf tank is a magic based tank so one can assume he doesnt need a shield. But how else could a BG defend himself other than a shield



Yes, they will be worse in defence. Better in attack.
Are You saying that all 3 carrers will be equal in all aspects of gameplay??If thats true I feel sorry for the power gamers who want to be BGs then. Can't tank as well as a BO or chosen and cant DPS as well as a DPS class. Wait WTF is the point of playing a BG anyway?


Warriors do not carry heavy armour. They use shields, becouse they are citizen militia, not a professional soldiers.
Exexutioners, do not use shields. Talking about heavy armour.. Try to compare Executioner heavy armour and Chaos Warrioior heavy armour.
Cold On Knights are mounted unit. It is quite hard to dodge anything when You are sitting in the saddle.You said "Becouse elves prefer agility defense and swift, deadly attack over armoured monsters. They are to fragile to be armoured monsters so they fith with "strike first, strike last" idea." Just trying to show thats not the case with the DE army.



It is good enough to know a basics about polearms.:rolleyes:Movies dont count :rolleyes:


Maybe. But in THIS MMO there is no tank at all. There is defensive fighter. And Defensive Fighter job is not only taking damage. Just like there is no healer, but support. This is one of the reasons why this game is better than others.No tank!? really thats news to me.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WR0VoZNkodQ

I clearly see the word "tank" in the vid

[Delolith]

Since Im not part of Mythic and all we have is information released. They say a BG is tank, which means tough defense. The high elf tank is a magic based tank so one can assume he doesnt need a shield. But how else could a BG defend himself other than a shield



If thats true I feel sorry for the power gamers who want to be BGs then. Can't tank as well as a BO or chosen and cant DPS as well as a DPS class. Wait WTF is the point of playing a BG anyway?


You said "Becouse elves prefer agility defense and swift, deadly attack over armoured monsters. They are to fragile to be armoured monsters so they fith with "strike first, strike last" idea." Just trying to show thats not the case with the DE army.



Movies dont count :rolleyes:


No tank!? really thats news to me.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WR0VoZNkodQ

I clearly see the word "tank" in the vid

Yes but he doesn't really fill the shoes of the traditional tank that the other MMOs want to stereotype. And thus by saying defenssive fighter with the role of protecting his fellows =/= just take the dmg done he actually depicts what the WAR tank is. So I will agree with him with the term defenssive fighter.

Delolith

P.S on a side note about your comment with power gamers etc that he won't be as good tank as a BO and not as good DPS as a pure DPSer what is his role....I won't agree with you here. In most MMOs the hybrid classes are the classes that dominate the PvP. Classes that can withstand DMG and do quite good dmg too....but not the best of the two. If you talking about people prefering more defenssive tanks than him...well that totally depends on how the BG is gonna be implemented in the game and if he can fit the shoes of the "fellow protector". If he does his job rather well although he is not as defenssive then I don't see a problem. This is WAR anyway not everMOB or everPvE like some other games are....and I sure hope it won't turn out to be one.

[Kellaris]

Since Im not part of Mythic and all we have is information released. They say a BG is tank, which means tough defense. The high elf tank is a magic based tank so one can assume he doesnt need a shield. But how else could a BG defend himself other than a shield


With agility and polearm or whatever. This is only the problem of imagination of his creators.
They have a concept of halbard wielding defensive melee and mechanics is a minor problem. They may decide that halbard gives dodge bonus in the same way they decide that Swordmaster has some magic protection.



If thats true I feel sorry for the power gamers who want to be BGs then. Can't tank as well as a BO or chosen and cant DPS as well as a DPS class. Wait WTF is the point of playing a BG anyway?

I feel sorry too...... well... in fact I'm not.



You said "Becouse elves prefer agility defense and swift, deadly attack over armoured monsters. They are to fragile to be armoured monsters so they fith with "strike first, strike last" idea." Just trying to show thats not the case with the DE army.

Then You failed, becouse in DE army only cavalary and citizen militia uses shield. In this game we are supposed to be elite force - not citizen militia. And mounted combat most propably will not be included (at least for elves).
Also, TT has rules designed for massive combat and MMO is more similiar to rpg and in Warhammer RPG all elven fighter I have ever seen prefers dodge over shield wall.


No tank!? really thats news to me.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WR0VoZNkodQ
I clearly see the word "tank" in the vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgEWLwUPUyU
0:30 - "defensive melee or tank" . Tank is a short name of defensive melee fighter. And his role is to fight, not take damage only.

[Exion]

And you know the chances of a 2hander beeing fully efective when "tanking", and its really low, close to 0. But not impossible, the new class on the next WoW expansion is a tank that doesnt use shields, so its possible, but unlike to happen.
You don't need WoW to prove it can happen,it's already been seen in Final Fantasy 11 with the Ninja class.
I also think the BG might be tanking so he can build up hatred and can get more use out of his DPS weapon. He's probably more offensive than most tanks,but he'll still want to take the hits.

[Lord Tareq]

Since its clear we will not get a repeater crossbow using class, I think its now very likely at the very least Black Guard will be able to use them. In the 4th edition of Warhammer most classes could use them (even witch elves) so it would not oppose the lore, and the weapon itself is just too cool not to include for players to use.

[Vernal]

Sorry but trying change what you said doesnt make you right.
You say Becouse elves prefer agility defense and swift, deadly attack over armoured monsters. They are to fragile to be armoured monsters so they fith with "strike first, strike last" idea.Then you saidThen You failed, becouse in DE army only cavalary and citizen militia uses shield. In this game we are supposed to be elite force - not citizen militia. And mounted combat most propably will not be included (at least for elves).
Also, TT has rules designed for massive combat and MMO is more similiar to rpg and in Warhammer RPG all elven fighter I have ever seen prefers dodge over shield wall.Now you're saying its only in the table top game they use heavy armor and shields but in WAR they dont need it because its RPG based. So WAR isnt really based on the TT then? :roll: I'm sorry but you failed at making the case that BGs should only use halberds.

[Kellaris]

Sorry but trying change what you said doesnt make you right.
Now you're saying its only in the table top game they use heavy armor and shields but in WAR they dont need it because its RPG based. So WAR isnt really based on the TT then? :roll: I'm sorry but you failed at making the case that BGs should only use halberds.

1. I was never against heavy armour. You are mentioning it all the time. I'm not chainmal bikini fanboy. Good armour is good. If Swordmaster can be heavy armoured dodge based tank, why BG cannot?


2. I have never said that BG should use halbard only. I only belive they should never use shields. Both hands should be used to attack and kill. Halbard, Draich, 2 swords, what You wish. Shield is for the weak (and for COK)


3. My arguments do not contradict each other. They are beating Your argument in two different ways.

[Rasek]

Once again, if I will put RP aside, I will choose Black Orc. BO will always be harder to kill than BG and has cool mechanics. If someone do not care about RP and want to roll heavy tank, he should choose BO (Or IB on order side).
BG and BO are supposed to be distinct carrers and this should mean more than different avatars.

Unless you are one of the Developers of the game, there no way in hell you could make that statement, because you have 0( ZERO) sources you can use to prove you assumption.

Black orc is not finished(not even close now with mastery)
Black guard has 0 info about them, except what paul said.

So... Godjesusomfg, dont say things as if they were real. Your concept of what things should be, is just as good as the other 500k players, and its called "in my Opinion" and not "this will be".

[Rasek]

For all of you saying using shields is lore breaking etc etc etc. elves are slim, they cant soak dmg because they are fragile etc etc.

For all of you who thinks like this, ill teach you how to play:

1-buy the game
2-create your acount
3-log in to servers room
4-you will get something like this
_<insert server name><insert server type>
_XXXXXXX XXXXXX
_XXXXXXX XXXXXX
_Omg1%pop (RP server)

5-Ok, now choose the RP server
6-BAM, now you are in a server with people that share the same limits to the game for RP sake.

Ok now that you guys that want things for RP/ TT/ overdose of reality sakes got your response, can we get back to Warhammer the >MMO<(not RP see) logical, fluid discussion?

One guy posted about beeing able to use defensive skills with the 2hander. Of course you will, you just dont get to use the "ace of spades" of the defensive skills, like any mmo.

And you cant make tanks diferent of each other in a way that one can tank 100% with a shield and another that can tank 100% with a 2hander, thats game breaking, and even if they can balance it, you would see a insane overpopulation of that class.

I believe you can be defensive with a 2hander, but with a limitation, you have to know that limitation and pull a shield to maximize your performance.
You also can be ofensive with a 1hander, but with the same limitation, you have to know it and pull a 2hander if you can soak up that lvl of dmg with it.

And tanking is not about pve or endgame stuff. Take WoW for example, a lot of times in arena 5vs5 i had to pull a shield out to not die, because the dmg couldnt be outhealed without the shield(shaman, mage, warlock, warrior). In AV also you usually see warriors swaping to shields due to ff > heal.
So for people that thinks shield is for endgame raiding guilds, please stop talking about things you really dont know.

Some people say here, they wouldnt equip a 1hander because in their opinion it makes no sense RP/TT/lore/ wise to do so. And they rather die and let their group die than equip a 1hander if the situations asks for one.
Same goes for the one saying BO will be harder to kill just because they are bigger and tougher lore wise. This is MMO, its about balance, not RP.

[Vernal]

Thank you Rasek, Now you can play the BG anyway you want, 2-H or 1-H with a shield. As for me Ill be using both. Shield to take hits and build up hate then switch to a 2-H to dish it out.

Just dont complain when you cant find any groups when you refuse to tank and be "hey look everyone I'm a heavy armor melee DPS"

[Vernal]

1. I was never against heavy armour. You are mentioning it all the time. I'm not chainmal bikini fanboy. Good armour is good. If Swordmaster can be heavy armoured dodge based tank, why BG cannot?

SM is a balanced based magical tank yes, I just dont see the BG doing any sort of dance dodge and attacks.


2. I have never said that BG should use halbard only. I only belive they should never use shields. Both hands should be used to attack and kill. Halbard, Draich, 2 swords, what You wish. Shield is for the weak (and for COK)Fair enough, play how you want. If shields are for the weak why were they invented in the first place? The Spartans used shields, would you consider them weak?

3. My arguments do not contradict each other. They are beating Your argument in two different ways.You said "Becouse elves prefer agility defense and swift, deadly attack over armoured monsters. They are to fragile to be armoured monsters so they fith with "strike first, strike last" idea." then

Then You failed, becouse in DE army only cavalary and citizen militia uses shield. In this game we are supposed to be elite force - not citizen militia. And mounted combat most propably will not be included (at least for elves).
Also, TT has rules designed for massive combat and MMO is more similiar to rpg and in Warhammer RPG all elven fighter I have ever seen prefers dodge over shield wall.Basically your basis for BG not using shields is "elves have agility based defense" and "are too fragile to be armored monsters". Then you say oh the DE army have armored and shielded units. How its that not contradictory? Then you try to justify it because they only have heavy armor and shields because of the massive armies in TT game. So RvR doesnt count as mass combat?

[Kellaris]

Unless you are one of the Developers of the game, there no way in hell you could make that statement, because you have 0( ZERO) sources you can use to prove you assumption.

Black orc is not finished(not even close now with mastery)
Black guard has 0 info about them, except what paul said.

So... Godjesusomfg, dont say things as if they were real. Your concept of what things should be, is just as good as the other 500k players, and its called "in my Opinion" and not "this will be".

You are right of course. But, if they have equal defence capability, it would mean that Mythic lied to us that they will make 24 DISTINCT carrers. Or they may decide that elf has better toughness than orc and dwarf. But I do not think they will..
And, this whole discussion is about exchanging opinions about something that we do not know. I beg Your pardon but I will not writ obvious "in my opinion" in every sentence in my every post.



And you cant make tanks diferent of each other in a way that one can tank 100% with a shield and another that can tank 100% with a 2hander, thats game breaking, and even if they can balance it, you would see a insane overpopulation of that class.

I believe you can be defensive with a 2hander, but with a limitation, you have to know that limitation and pull a shield to maximize your performance.
You also can be ofensive with a 1hander, but with the same limitation, you have to know it and pull a 2hander if you can soak up that lvl of dmg with it.

Thank you Rasek, Now you can play the BG anyway you want, 2-H or 1-H with a shield. As for me Ill be using both. Shield to take hits and build up hate then switch to a 2-H to dish it out.

Just dont complain when you cant find any groups when you refuse to tank and be "hey look everyone I'm a heavy armor melee DPS"


That is true. Let me be more precise about my opinion here. I do not mind if someone want to equip shield. Or crossbow. Or spear. Or dagger. But they shouldn't have skills to use with this equipment. Becouse as we know from presentation, BG is supposed to be halbard wielding defensive fighter. IB for example is designed for axe and shield. And we know (from conventions) that IB has skills like shield bash or sth. Propably he can equip 2h hammer, but he will loose acces to shield requireing skills. Every carrer should have specialization. IB specialization is axe and shield. BG specialization are halbards (afaik). Maybe 2h and duals also. But he cannot have skills for everything. And if he will not have skills for shield, he will not be as effectiv fighting with one as Iron Breaker who has skills.
And to Riasek: When You wil equip shield in pvp, most propably You will be totally ignored by all enemy with one possible exception of one that You wil taunt. You will tank like hell.



Fair enough, play how you want. If shields are for the weak why were they invented in the first place? The Spartans used shields, would you consider them weak?

Definately, shields were not invented by elves :rolleyes:
And talking about spartans, it was bronze age. They do not have technology to make reliable armour or heavy weapons.
Look at history: shield dies with medieval knights and 2-handed polearms were used on battlefield much longer until the bayonet was invented. (Someone may even say that musket/rifle with bayonet is also 2-handed polearm). Not to mention that there were areas where shield was not used at all, like Japan. And if I can compare BG to anything on this world, it would be samurai with naginata. Personal opinion of course.



Basically your basis for BG not using shields is "elves have agility based defense" and "are too fragile to be armored monsters". Then you say oh the DE army have armored and shielded units. How its that not contradictory?
It is not, becouse I have pointe that this units are:
1) unskilled citizen militia (as far as DE may be unskilled, maybe less skilled is better term)
2) mounted unit, becouse they cannot dodge anything, becouse while sitting in the saddle
Black Guard are not unskilled and not mounted, so they do not use shield exactly like all other DE elite (or at least "crack") units like Witches, Executioners or even Corsairs. And this is becouse DE idea of how to not beeing killed is to kill quicker (all above afaik).

[Delolith]

I think I will have to agree with Kellaris with a few of his points there. Imo and from what I have seen with Swordmasters....and I don't say the same will be implemented for Blackguards....Swordmaster will have the path of Vule that is a path dedicated to sword and shield style. This supposedly will be the most defenssive style of the swordmaster in contrast with the path of Khaine for example which will be more offenssive oriented and will probably use the 2h greatsword of Hoeth. As we all understand the shield + sword combo will be more defenssive than the 2h greatsword...and the 2h greatsword will do significantly more dmg than the shield and longsword. However, where you are wrong Vernal is that I never ment for the 2 builds to be equally defenssive. Of course that cannot happen cause then the 2h users with equal defensse and superior offense would dominate the sword+shield users. What I said was they should make the 2h greatsword build EQUALLY VIABLE (not as defessive) for the role of the tank...and that doesn't have to do just with withstanding damage. For example...you taunt something...then you use your ultimate shield in your face move that it gives you for 6 seconds block all attacks directed at you with shield meanwhile dishing some dmg out with your longsword. On the other side they could make so that when you use the Vortex ability it requires 2h greatsword...and you actually gain the time (4-5 seconds) of the knockback till your opponent reaches you again but you also cannot do any dmg cause the person you just knockedback is nowhere near you. So you see....both are defenssive in a different manner and they both fill the role for the tank without the 2h guy be as defenssive mitigation-wise with the sword+shield guy.

my 2 cps

Delolith

[Dyst]

The Spartans used shields, would you consider them weak?Ahaha, just love how people bring up something they've heard in a movie as truth. Way to be brainwashed.

And even if the "Spartans" used shields in that movie (300 or whatever) it has nothing to do with mechanics in a game. By the way, that movie (300) does in no way represent real history. In fact, it failed in many ways, except perhaps impressing minors with fancy graphics and "abs" (in reality, surprise, they'd wear armor over their chests...)

By the way, I'm not saying wearing a shield makes you "weak", I'm just saying considering Spartans as particularly "cool" or "strong" because a movie director wants you to is weak.

[Grimald]

Its fairly simple tbh, I believe Black Guard will be much better as a RvR tank than a Black Orc Tank and a Black Orc Tank will be a much better PVE tank and Chosen are in the middle (leaning more towards pve though still think they are more of a hinderance)

Black Guard can lay out some good dps in rvr since they wield a two handed weapon and still maintain a decent defense through skills etc, Black Orcs are ok for RVR they can disrupt and slow your enemy down while able to take probably more damage due to having the added shield (more armour more items with added stats) but will lack the dps.
While in PVE Black Guard will most likely have more of a problem with burst damage during bosses and won't be able to mitigate the damage as well as the black orc who has a number of subtle debuffs plus the snares and knock downs.

This could equally be said for the opposite side, instead of the Black Guard you have the sword master and instead of the black orc you have the ironbreaker. Both can be altered through the different paths to switch roles i believe as the latest video suggests with the three trees, you could end up having an awesome mitigating black guard (if he can have a shield) and a good dps black orc (if he can have two handed weapon) but these will be off specs for what they were intended to use so will most likely lose out on abilities and skills.

Thats what i think anyway.

[Dyst]

I agree with everything Grimald said.

Black Guards will be able to use a shield, but they'll probably have most abilities linked towards their halberd. Because that is their iconic weapon, it is basically what Black Guards are all about. But they can probably change this through speccing differently, and become more of a sword'n'board damage soaker instead of dealer.

[Rasek]

you guys realize all that concept art with halberds, the lore saying its their only weapons, its only to look cool right?

what you do with a halberd you will be able to do with a 2handed sword, and if you dont, all diferent weapons will have their own specs, like.. halberds have a higher range, swords have a higher critical, axes have a proc, etc etc.

From all past mmos if the business learned something is not to limit the melee with only 1 kind of weapon.

What i can see mythic doing is giving bg stats to some halberds to incentive its use by blackguards, like:

-black guard has a skill called "BG Strike", then there is a halberd that gives +40dmg to BG strike instead of stats that are good to all 2hander users, making it a blackguard first dib halberd. Then you find a 2hand sword that gives 30str, that fits every 2hander user, even the BG.

But what you guys are sugesting is that they make some skills halberd only, forcing people to use halberd or be gimped with another weapons, and thats not going to happen, UNLESS, the other weapons have equivalent skills in a way its not a lose/lose situation without a halberd.


edited: And i really dont think we should dwell on things like this one grimaldi said, you cant tell what BG will be or will not be, no backup to suport that, only rumors and lore, if im beeing unfair and there is a source to these afirmations i would like a link.

and imo, i dont think thel will make classes better to pve and others better to pvp, they are all suposed to do both jobs, given the right spec and situation.

[Grimald]

Well they seem to be doing that with all others, such as swordmaster (sword primary weapon) ironbreakers who need to have a shield equipped to use the majority of their abilities, witch elves will most likely have to use daggers/short swords. The point is they are gimping other classes by making sure you use a type of weapon/shield so i see no point why they won't do it with polearms for black guard.

you guys realize all that concept art with halberds, the lore saying its their only weapons, its only to look cool right?

what you do with a halberd you will be able to do with a 2handed sword, and if you dont, all diferent weapons will have their own specs, like.. halberds have a higher range, swords have a higher critical, axes have a proc, etc etc.

From all past mmos if the business learned something is not to limit the melee with only 1 kind of weapon.

What i can see mythic doing is giving bg stats to some halberds to incentive its use by blackguards, like:

-black guard has a skill called "BG Strike", then there is a halberd that gives +40dmg to BG strike instead of stats that are good to all 2hander users, making it a blackguard first dib halberd. Then you find a 2hand sword that gives 30str, that fits every 2hander user, even the BG.

But what you guys are sugesting is that they make some skills halberd only, forcing people to use halberd or be gimped with another weapons, and thats not going to happen, UNLESS, the other weapons have equivalent skills in a way its not a lose/lose situation without a halberd.


edited: And i really dont think we should dwell on things like this one grimaldi said, you cant tell what BG will be or will not be, no backup to suport that, only rumors and lore, if im beeing unfair and there is a source to these afirmations i would like a link.

and imo, i dont think thel will make classes better to pve and others better to pvp, they are all suposed to do both jobs, given the right spec and situation.

I've played a Ironbreaker and Black Orc at Gamesday so i know what they can and cannot do at that time, what i posted was my opinions and thoughts i never said it was fact, its my opinion i don't need to have sources to post my own thoughts.

[Grimald]

I moved what i said into my previous post.

[Selendor]

Swordmasters use swords. Hammerers use hammers. The Black Guard will use Halberds. This isn't generic MMO #47 where all fighter classes can use every weapon. You won't see Swordmasters using maces. If that's what you want, there's always WoW - by the way, how many Warriors do you see using shields for PvP in that game?

[Vernal]

Ahaha, just love how people bring up something they've heard in a movie as truth. Way to be brainwashed.

And even if the "Spartans" used shields in that movie (300 or whatever) it has nothing to do with mechanics in a game. By the way, that movie (300) does in no way represent real history. In fact, it failed in many ways, except perhaps impressing minors with fancy graphics and "abs" (in reality, surprise, they'd wear armor over their chests...)

By the way, I'm not saying wearing a shield makes you "weak", I'm just saying considering Spartans as particularly "cool" or "strong" because a movie director wants you to is weak.

I'm only using the Spartans as an example due to the familiarity because of the movie. So you deny that the greeks(spartans or any other city state) used shields historically then?I suggest you read a history book about greek warfare. The quote that "shields are for the weak" is so fundamentally flawed. You act like people think they "cool and strong" because of the movie. Actually hollywood picked them because they were already renowned in history and legend as a skilled professional army, even though they went a little overboard in their portrayal.

Kellaris having specific halberd bonuses would just punish the player for not using a halberd even more. I dont see the point in further punishing a player's offense when a halberd should clearly be doing more dmg than a sword and shield and on top of that removing certain bonuses would limit players even more. I dont think mythic wants to do that.

[deedex]

Actually I don't think so (note, I could be wrong).

You are right, there are pictures listed as Witch Elf daggers, such as this:
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/CncArt0907_26.jpg
You can see here from the length also, these are indeed daggers.

These are found further down the site (concept art page), though, and it says nothing of daggers about them. Also if you look at the length it looks more like swords:
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_50.jpg

Just my theory anyway.
yea the second picture looks alot like swords thay look to big to be daggers

[deedex]

I saw a picture that showed the Black Guard dual wielding swords this who also be a cool mechanic with hatred. Also if you look at the concept art yo see two swords in his belt. I think my dream senario would be charging in with a halberd (sp?) chopping down the first few guys then slinging it on my back and drawing my dual sword and just going into a blade frenzy
thats sounds cool id do that:cool:

[Dyst]

you guys realize all that concept art with halberds, the lore saying its their only weapons, its only to look cool right?

what you do with a halberd you will be able to do with a 2handed sword, and if you dont, all diferent weapons will have their own specs, like.. halberds have a higher range, swords have a higher critical, axes have a proc, etc etc.

From all past mmos if the business learned something is not to limit the melee with only 1 kind of weapon.

What i can see mythic doing is giving bg stats to some halberds to incentive its use by blackguards, like:

-black guard has a skill called "BG Strike", then there is a halberd that gives +40dmg to BG strike instead of stats that are good to all 2hander users, making it a blackguard first dib halberd. Then you find a 2hand sword that gives 30str, that fits every 2hander user, even the BG.

But what you guys are sugesting is that they make some skills halberd only, forcing people to use halberd or be gimped with another weapons, and thats not going to happen, UNLESS, the other weapons have equivalent skills in a way its not a lose/lose situation without a halberd.


edited: And i really dont think we should dwell on things like this one grimaldi said, you cant tell what BG will be or will not be, no backup to suport that, only rumors and lore, if im beeing unfair and there is a source to these afirmations i would like a link.

and imo, i dont think thel will make classes better to pve and others better to pvp, they are all suposed to do both jobs, given the right spec and situation.

What you gotta realize is that, unlike WoW and other MMO's, here there are specific classes/careers per race. The races share no careers. So every career gets f.ex. their own reward from a quest, that suits them specifically, both by race and career.

So obviously Black Guard is going to get some kick halberd rewards. :)

[Kellaris]

But what you guys are sugesting is that they make some skills halberd only, forcing people to use halberd or be gimped with another weapons, and thats not going to happen, UNLESS, the other weapons have equivalent skills in a way its not a lose/lose situation without a halberd.

Or unless there are other carrers that have skills to use other weapons. If You play shadow warrior, You use bow. If You play hammerer, You use hammers. You play Iron breaker, You use axe and shield. Swordmaster - sword. Engineer - handgun. Black Guard - halbard.
We have 24 DISTINCT carrers. Not 4, but 24.
Do You belive that Archmage will use handgun?? It is RDPS weapon....
Or maybe Witch Elves will use hammers?? I do not think so. Becouse they are not generic elf DPS. They are Witch Elves and they fight with daggers.

[Vankador]

Halberds are essentially daggers on poles.

Strengths include long reach and high damage
Weaknesses include low mobility

[Vernal]

Its already been stated that BGs can use other weapons. You guys are just in denial at this point. Don't make the rest of us suffer because you want to keep your precious lore intact. I hope BGs can use draichs too.

[Rasek]

Or unless there are other carrers that have skills to use other weapons. If You play shadow warrior, You use bow. If You play hammerer, You use hammers. You play Iron breaker, You use axe and shield. Swordmaster - sword. Engineer - handgun. Black Guard - halbard.
We have 24 DISTINCT carrers. Not 4, but 24.
Do You belive that Archmage will use handgun?? It is RDPS weapon....
Or maybe Witch Elves will use hammers?? I do not think so. Becouse they are not generic elf DPS. They are Witch Elves and they fight with daggers.

I wouldnt dwell on this 24 "UNIQUE" class too much.

and comparing an archmage using a handgun with a blackguard using a claymore is kinda stupid.
Its just normal some archetypes to have a higher arsenal of weapons at their disposal.
And mythic already stated that blackguards arent halberd only. Making a melee player be stuck with only halberds for 1/2/3 years is stupid and adds a minus to diversity and options.

cant you just use halberds the entire time and leave the other 99% of players using whatever they enjoy more at a given time? And if their way of distinguishing the 24 classes is limiting the other 23 with this kind of restriction... damn!

[Kellaris]

Its already been stated that BGs can use other weapons. You guys are just in denial at this point. Don't make the rest of us suffer because you want to keep your precious lore intact. I hope BGs can use draichs too.

I hope they will use draich too. And duals. But not a shield. ;)
We know there will be 3 specializations. If it is correct what I read here about swordmaster specializations, it is propable that they will utilize different weapons. And this is ok. Halbards for BG fans. Draich for Executioner fans. Duals for Drizzt fans. Shield fans should check Black Orc. BO is cool too.

As You see, I'm quite open to bending the lore if necessery. Shield is just a bit too much.;)

Also, I have to admit that switching weapons in the middle of the combat (halbard for shield and back to halbard) is a silly idea and I do not like to see that in any game I play.

I wouldnt dwell on this 24 "UNIQUE" class too much.
and comparing an archmage using a handgun with a blackguard using a claymore is kinda stupid.


Not a claymore but Draich.
I have said it a few times, but if You haven't noticed, i will repeat:
I'm not against Draichs
I'm against shields

And comparison may be stupid to You becouse You belive that BG should use shields. I claim they should not and they should not use hammers or bows and archmage should not use handguns.

[Rasek]

Swordmasters use swords. Hammerers use hammers. The Black Guard will use Halberds. This isn't generic MMO #47 where all fighter classes can use every weapon. You won't see Swordmasters using maces. If that's what you want, there's always WoW - by the way, how many Warriors do you see using shields for PvP in that game?

hello Mr.whobypassthepostwheredevssaythatblackguardsdont useonlyhalberds.
I cant tell about swordmaster or hammerer cause i have no clue. And i see most warriors swaping shield/2hander in pvp, of course thats 2300+ rating teams, i dont know bellow that, but of all the warrior population 90% doesnt really know what they are doing, 5% like their styles, so i would say 5% uses shield in pvp when needed.

[Vernal]

Maybe someone will ask in the next FAQ: Will swordmasters only use swords? Will hammerers only use hammers?

[Rasek]

And comparison may be stupid to You becouse You belive that BG should use shields. I claim they should not and they should not use hammers or bows and archmage should not use handguns.

its not like i believe that BGS uses shields. They are tank archetypes you know, and tanks uses shield, thats thair main tool of survival.
It may be ultrajeous for you to see BGs using shields, but it is ultrajeous to me a tank not having a shield as one of his main tools.
And since they didnt make BG a melee dps class, but a Tank, and with the handful of darkelf shield arts we saw around, BGs will be handling boards for improved defense.

maybe they can be really nasty with shields. You know its all about how cool they make the animations with it.

[Grimald]

Black Guard will be able to tank with a halberd otherwise theres no point to the "Black Guards weapon of choice is a polearm" which the developers have been so strong to point out, although i can see them using a shield if they wish but they will lose the defensive abilities that relies on them using a halberd. Again these are my thoughts.

[Rasek]

Black Guard will be able to tank with a halberd otherwise theres no point to the "Black Guards weapon of choice is a polearm" which the developers have been so strong to point out, although i can see them using a shield if they wish but they will lose the defensive abilities that relies on them using a halberd. Again these are my thoughts.

So in your opinion, halberd will be the top notch weapon for a BG to perform his best in defense, while shield is an option for who likes it, but will lose their awesome defense abilities, that are only usuable with halberd?

Believing that a BG can soak up dmg to a point with a halberd is ok, its aceptable. But seeing his halberd as his main defensive weapon... thats just.. too much. And where in hell you saw devs beeing so strong about halberd beeing his Mcgyver weapon? All i saw was Paul saying they like the biggest weapons around, the halberd. Yeah, i bet Paul is as awesome source for technical info.

im done with this thread, it just gets worse and worse. People keep debating over things with their wishlist.

[Kellaris]

its not like i believe that BGS uses shields. They are tank archetypes you know, and tanks uses shield, thats thair main tool of survival.


I understand You have played lot of MMO before. I suspect You are quite experienced warrioior/tank player. And I sunderstand that from Your experience tank have to use shields in some situations and it works in all games You have played before.
But there is apparentlysomething, that You and many other people can not understand.
WOW has lore based on game.
WAR is game based on the lore.
Mythic has proven that they care about the lore for example by making Chosen and Marauder (and Witch) gender restricted classes. We may discuss if theese choices was correct, but noone doubts that they have make decisions to keep to the lore and theese decisions are almost suicidal from marketing point of view.

Lore is important in this game. You may not like it, but this is the fact.
So, a few words about BG lore.
If You are Black Guard, You hate everyone and everything with maybe a one exception of Malekith. Reason of this hatred is not a point here.
The point is, that if You meet another sentient beeing, You first thought is to tear his heart.
Second, to tear his limbs apart.
Then, after consideration You decide to choose an easy way and cut him into pieces. Your survival is not exactly a point here, becouse when You meet another sentient beeing, You are the hunter and he is the prey (at least from Your point of view)
As a personal Guardian of Malekith, You may have2 possible tasks.
1. To guard him. If You are guarding Malekith, your protection matters not. You are supposed to kill anything that may be dangerous to Your king before it reach him. And if something is dangerous for Malekith, son of Aenarion, great wizzard and warrior, who keeps biggest black dragon You have ever seen in his bedchamber, If something is dangerous for Malekith, Your shield will not help You.
2. To enforce his will wherever he is not present at the moment. And When You are the enforcer, You are not supposed to think about Your survival. You safety is guaranteed by most intimidating armour the money can buy. When You wear this armour, everyone knows that it is not good to mess with You. Becouse You are most skilled and disciplined warrior in Naggaroth (with exception for assasins maybe). Becouse You are psychopath. A reaper, a tearer and a slasher.

As You see, there is nothing about inpenetrable shieldblocks in this story. And of course it is possible that Mythic wii hurt BG lore and make a shield specialization, but I doubt that. So, if I'm not terribly mistaken, and You want to play another warrior and switch shield with 2 hander when You need that, I advice You Black Orc. Or Chosen. They work like that..

[Vernal]

Too many assumptions here, the BG will lose his halberd defensive bonuses when he uses a shield. WTF, WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS INFO.

Any further discussion is pointless until we get some damn info.

[Grimald]

no one said he will lose his defensive bonus, i said that he will lose some defensive abilities that rely on him using a halberd (and due to the halberd being a two handed weapon i doubt he;ll be able to use a shield along with it).

I only said that because, due to what i've seen with other classes relying on the use of a particular weapon, they get abilities that can only be used when you have one equipped (like ironbreakers skills)

In my opinion, black guard will have defensive abilities reliant on brandishing a halberd, as the halberd is the primary weapon for them and since they are supposed to be a tank class giving them a halberd without skills to use defensivly would be pointless.

Get my drift now?

[Cruniac]

I do, and agree.

I have been a tanking type of person all my rpg life, and getting a pvp tank like the BG is just incredibly cool.

With halberds being the number one weapon of choice for BGs it would only be natural for them to have a range of defensive abilities that would make a fashion of "tanking" available for them during pvp combat. Maybe even desirable abilities to use during pvp..abilities you lose if you switch to shield and one hand sword without losing much defensive factors..

Personally I think a Black Guard without a halberd is just sad...Black guards in my eyes, have 2 swords to show their nobility (as is custom among the Druchii) and their halberd..thats it. With those weapons they can complete their task (tanking) with ease.

[Dankard]

I think it's likely that the BG get some special skills with halbreds... but the people wishing they won't be able to use shields at all are wrong in my opinion. It's just wishfull thinking!

Just think about it half a second: Swordmaster will be able to use a shield and they'll have a maestry focussing on it. But wait a second! Don't Swordmaster rely on blade dances? Can you imagine anybody dancing with a heavy shield? Well In my humble opinion, it makes no sense.
But since every tank has always been able to use a shield, well SM will be able to use one too... and I'm pretty sure it'll be just the same for BG.

[shoi]

i really hope they dont make it so you need to use a shield to be a real viable tank.... theyd be taking away the individuality of the tanks and just turn them all into tank w/ sword and shield


also i wonder about hatred... maybe you'll want to get hit to build your hatred... if you block all the attacks and dont get damaged then maybe you don't really build up the hatred... so it might be best to use a halberd so that you can get hit and do more damage... then more people would want to attack you

my other hope is that the halberd will give some kind of attack where you can hook and 'pull' people over or block them from running past you with it....


mind you im not saying this is what i think will happen, i jsut want the BG and all the ther tank classes to use their iconic weapons and still be viable in both pvp and pve

[Cruniac]

I just pray for the hatred mechanic to be somewhat more interesting than the rage mechanic in "that other game"...

[Rasek]

/yawn .

[Cruniac]

/care:rolleyes:

[ChosenOne]

Seen some pics that might show that disciples can dual wield swords. If the "silhouette recognition" requires that each class of a race wield different weapon types, will this mean blackguard are no longer going to be able to dual wield even though we saw a concept of such?

Back to just two hander and sword/board combo?

[Lord Tareq]

Seen some pics that might show that disciples can dual wield swords. If the "silhouette recognition" requires that each class of a race wield different weapon types, will this mean blackguard are no longer going to be able to dual wield even though we saw a concept of such?

Back to just two hander and sword/board combo?

Nah it says nothing. Witch Elves dual wield swords, so no reason why BG shouldn't. And in most games Tanks have the most weapon options.

[ChosenOne]

Nah it says nothing. Witch Elves dual wield swords, so no reason why BG shouldn't. And in most games Tanks have the most weapon options.

Witch elves "swords" are much shorter. They are actually dark elven daggers from what I understand.

Short swords and long swords are discernably different. Blackguard swords and Disciple swords look to be about the same size though.

[shoi]

their armor is different enough tho, it should be too hard to tell

[Lord Tareq]

Witch elves "swords" are much shorter. They are actually dark elven daggers from what I understand.

Short swords and long swords are discernably different. Blackguard swords and Disciple swords look to be about the same size though.

Perhaps, but I doubt witch elves only can use daggers. They will probably be allowed to use swords as well. The concept art clearly shows Black Guard with 2 swords, so not sure why you are arguing about this. Would it kill the game to have overlapping weapon proficiencies?

[ChosenOne]

Perhaps, but I doubt witch elves only can use daggers. They will probably be allowed to use swords as well. The concept art clearly shows Black Guard with 2 swords, so not sure why you are arguing about this. Would it kill the game to have overlapping weapon proficiencies?

Not arguing man. Just stating what has been told so far and how some of the other racial classes worked. Maybe they are throwing out the previous concepts and doing differently with the disciples.

It would be silly for me to argue that my point is correct and yours isnt because neither of us really know. As I said, just stating how things looked with the other races and if such is continued how it would work for the elves. Its not just dark elves.

I agree that witch elves and disciples both pretty much need a dual spec but the difference can come in the size of their weaponry.

[Navras]

Black Guards will very probably use shields , at least in their tanking mastery path. there are concepts of DE shields, and no other DE class would use them.

I can see them use these setups:

-one handed sword/halberd + shield ( like the warrior in this npc pic http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2007_09/NL_newSS_0903.jpg)
-two-handed sword/halberd
-dual wield swords

[Lord Tareq]

The shields could ofcourse be NPC concept art (although I doubt that)

[Kirath]

-one handed sword/halberd + shield ( like the warrior in this npc pic http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/...newSS_0903.jpg (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2007_09/NL_newSS_0903.jpg))
-two-handed sword/halberd
-dual wield swords

I'm going to have to agree with that, it's only logical to allow the tanking class an option on what weapon to use in certain situations, but I think that there will be Halberd specific talents, too...

[Kellaris]

-one handed sword/halberd + shield ( like the warrior in this npc pic http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/...newSS_0903.jpg (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2007_09/NL_newSS_0903.jpg))


This warrior has spear, not halbard. I undestand there is not too much differnce between halbard and spear on this pic, but there should be. Halbard is heavy, two handed weapon.

[shoi]

-one handed sword/halberd + shield ( like the warrior in this npc pic http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/...newSS_0903.jpg (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2007_09/NL_newSS_0903.jpg))
-two-handed sword/halberd
-dual wield swords

I'm going to have to agree with that, it's only logical to allow the tanking class an option on what weapon to use in certain situations, but I think that there will be Halberd specific talents, too...

i sure hope so... it to me is what really makes the black guard stand out from other druchii
and the other tanks aswell

[waffel]

I just hope for a variety of weapon choices. Hopefully slashing/crushing/piercing polearms and a choice between a variety of slashing and crushing (can't see Black Guards being able to be very effective with a dagger) shield combo.

Two handed slashing polearm and one hand slashing sword + board sounds extremely boring.

[Vorpin]

BG is supposed to be an offensive tank, why they couldnt use shields would be beyond me. They are supposed to be able to tank pve sufficiently as well as pvp. Regardless of how much dmg they do or the lore they have with them, you cant lump them in with tanks if they cant use a shield OR IF they have some other characteristic that lets them absorb some dmg to keep them sturdy.

[ChosenOne]

I highly doubt blackguards will have three choices as far as how to wield their weapons.

Every other tank seems to have two choices. Mainly two hander and one hander with shield.

Why blackguard would get three is beyond me and highly doubtful.

[Kellaris]

I highly doubt blackguards will have three choices as far as how to wield their weapons.

Every other tank seems to have two choices. Mainly two hander and one hander with shield.

Why blackguard would get three is beyond me and highly doubtful.

By his logic KotBS may use two hander (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/0607_SSt_03.jpg) and spear (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/0607_SSt_02.jpg) and that is over??
No sword and board? That would be suprising..

[Dyst]

I highly doubt blackguards will have three choices as far as how to wield their weapons.

Every other tank seems to have two choices. Mainly two hander and one hander with shield.

Why blackguard would get three is beyond me and highly doubtful.

Huh? I think you are wrong, and all tanks will be get more than just two options... Where did you get that idea from anyway?

[ChosenOne]

By his logic KotBS may use two hander (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/0607_SSt_03.jpg) and spear (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/0607_SSt_02.jpg) and that is over??
No sword and board? That would be suprising..

See, you dont understand. They would have two EQUIPPING choices. Not two weapon choices.

They would be able to use ANY two handed weapon and ANY one hander with a shield.

So please, if you dont understand my logic dont try to explain it.

[tiderunner]

The problem is no one understands what you meant, are you saying that a two hander is a weapon classification and not a type, because honestly a spear and a greatsword are kind of different.

[Dyst]

See, you dont understand. They would have two EQUIPPING choices. Not two weapon choices.

They would be able to use ANY two handed weapon and ANY one hander with a shield.

So please, if you dont understand my logic dont try to explain it.

I think it is easier, logic-wise, to just assume the weapon preferences will be a bit different for each career, but generally they will be able to wield more weapons than what has been shown in the concept art (because it has been stated by the developers).

[ChosenOne]

The problem is no one understands what you meant, are you saying that a two hander is a weapon classification and not a type, because honestly a spear and a greatsword are kind of different.

What I am saying is these are two different classifications that will have to be worked out class by class.

I am going to use the empire knight and elf swordmaster for comparison.

Both classes will likely have one hander/shield possibility and two hander possibility.

The swordmaster may then be limited to just using one handed and two handed Swords.

The knight though instead of being a focused class on just one weapon they are able to wield more types of weapons but still limited to the one hander/shield combo or two hander.

So the classes will have differences in which weapons they can use but still have to fit under the same rule as to which classification of weapon wielding they can use.

Granted this is just my opinion from what has been said in the past and shown. Partial conjecture because we havnt been told outright either way.


We have been told that "Silhouette recognition" is very important to this game. While the armor types will be part of that, in the chaos and movement of battle the quickest way to recognize such is to see what weapons are in hand. By allowing only one of your racial classes to dual wield that makes it much easier to do such and also allows the creators of armor pieces to be more creative with the concepts. They wont have to worry so much about the disciple looking too much like a blackguard because only the disciple will be using two blades or a blade and chalice. Likewise with the blackguard, they can be more free with armor creation because only the blackguard would be using the shield and sword or two handed weapon.

[Reds]

Back to the original point, take a look at this picture:

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SS_1207_01.jpg

That heavily armoured Dark Elf next to the wagon is holding a big sword. In fact, he's cradling it. And if you zoom in on his eyes he's protecting his big sword, shiftily eyeing any who may try to steal it.

Clearly, they like their swords. 8)

Shields? Can't see any in the picture, but I'm hoping that that sword has a Board friend.

[Freax]

Buster Sword. Nuff said.