How can you like elves???

[Captbigbeard]

First off don't get me wrong. I'm actually serious when I'm asking this question. I'm not being sarcastic. I am really curious as to why the elves always seem to be the most popular race. I just can't wrap my mind around it. After reading giantslayer, I REALLY can't wrap my mind around it. Remember it is only my opinion, and I know I'm in a minority hateing elves and all (at least Paul's with me!)... and I know I will get flamed. But I am honestly curious!

Ok, so I was sitting here wondering... why are so many people attracted to elves. I just don't get it? I figured the best way to get my answer is to go strait to the source!

1st and formost, god, do most male elves look like girls! Just like anime guys! I know people like to play the "pretty" race, and I can understand the appeal of elves to women, but why would any guy like a race so unmanly! This applies to high elves, as apparently dark elf guys can be quite scary... and thus manly!

2ndly their so wimpy! Sure they can swing a sword at blinding speed and are incredibly agile, but this is to offset their utter lack of toughness. It's like Arnold (terminator style), fighting Andy . Sure Andy is quick and might dodge the mighty ex-conan... but come on! Whose the real man?

3rd, their so damn snotty! You know the cliche rich guy. The snotty one EVERYONE hates? The one who laughs at the poor, and makes money without lifting a finger. Yes, the one that fully supports george bush only because it fills his own pockets. Imagine a race with a mindset thats very similar. You have High Elves. At least the dark elves are bad , but they got their own wierd leather and whip fetish thing goin on.

Ok elves have magic... I never been a fan of mages, but I will admit magic can be pretty apealing, but EVERYONE has magic, and as far as magic casters go, the high elves's just can't seem to compare to the awesomeness of the magnus and bright wizard (of course my opinion).

the ONE thing I like about high elves is their little streak of insanity. Every high elf has to cope with a little bit of bloodlust. Now thats cool, but not cool enough if you ask me! They offset this with their long pretty hair.

Now explain to me, HOW, you can like elves?:confused:

This is their tank... He's wearing a dress!
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SST_0807_18.jpg
Come on...

[Fusko]

I like 'em for White Lions, and Warhammer Elves are a lot different that Warcraft & Tolkien elves(atleast different from the movie ones), but other than that its Chaos for me.

[Vaeronthar]

1. Well, I look like a woman in real life. I have long hair. It's very pretty, and I take pride in keeping it looking good. Sort've like a dwarf and his beard. Subconciously, I suppose, playing a character who is not only like me, but also not left the odd man out for it makes me feel less like I have to be ready to prove manliness at any time. Doesn't make me feel less pathetic, you have to understand that I feel fine about who I am. I do, however, feel less annoyed. This is only me, though. I'm sure that there are plenty of men with their own reasons.

2. The real man is the one who's worried about winning, and not about being the real man. Whether that's The Governator or Andy is immaterial, as those differing concerns exist in all races.

3. But... they aren't. The high elves are arrogant, and they believe they know what's best for the world. Annoyingly enough, they do. Thus, while they are the most aggrivating, they overall, do what they know in their heart to be best. They would not vote for George Bush. Or Kerry. They'd write in votes for whoever they think would really be best, not the lesser of two evils.

4. Because if you aren't an elf, you stick with one wind of magic or become corrupted. The Magus uses more then one, but he has a third eye growing out of his skull, and he exists for nothing but service to Tzeentch. He's hardly alive anymore. His passions are gone, his pains are gone. All is Tzeentch. The Bright Wizard cannot do anything but burn things. Impressive though this is, there will always be problems you can't blow up.

Elves, however, draw from any wind of magic. I'm not sure whether this is technique or racial ability, but the fact remains that they do that. And only they (and Slaan) do. High and Dark both.

And, well, that's why those things are either immaterial to me, or mean something positive to me. However, I'm sure another elf fan can give you completely differing reasons.

[Skurk]

Prepare for snooty comments against you, then making fun of you, most likely for being a dwarf. Then end with a myriad of annoying smiles.

[Koot]

Bet you are one of those jock-esque guys who think kilts = dresses.

As far as the girly-elf rubbish goes, I hardly see how the charmingly haunting alien-like characteristics of the elf in your screenshot equate to THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bish%C5%8Dnen). The elves of warhammer are menacing things that see things that do not match their culture's prowess of balanced perfection as inferior. Such things are viewed with a often passive aggressive form of contempt which mirrors the way I view alot of things that interfere with my daily life (holier-than-thou jerkoffs to name just one). Combined with their cruel-finesse and the fact that they are kind of the old guardians of the warhammer world (back before the younger races such as dwarves and humans came about the elves prevented the hordes chaos from overtaking the world), there is little reason for me to dislike the haunting presence of a Warhammer elf. There is just too many cool things to like about them.

Then again I don't expect someone who thinks Arnold Schwarzenegger is the stereostype for The Real Man to understand. As for the George Bush comment - that just makes you look silly, sir :???:.

most likely for being a dwarf
By the way, Dwarves smell.

[Captbigbeard]

3. But... they aren't. The high elves are arrogant, and they believe they know what's best for the world. Annoyingly enough, they do. Thus, while they are the most aggrivating, they overall, do what they know in their heart to be best. They would not vote for George Bush. Or Kerry. They'd write in votes for whoever they think would really be best, not the lesser of two evils.


You have some damn good points amigo, I feel sightly swayed. Not into likeing elves of course, but as to understanding why people like them. I gotta disagree with you on the they arn't arrogent point. EVERY race in warhammer seems to have their own faults. Dwarfs have their stubborness, both a blessing and a curse. Humans have a need for power, power they would sell their soul for. Orcs are well... their living flaws.

Elves are damn arrogant pricks. Sure there are exceptions but god... read giantslayer. Here you have the most powerfull elf mage, trying to help save the world, and pissing everyone off in the process.

War of the beard is a perfect example as well. Shaving off a dwarf beard, and refusing to apologize... ARROGANT! The elves started that war, the dwarfs didn't know nothin about dark elves. The dwarfs were attacked by elves, but were willing to discuss the matter. How did they elves respond, by preforming the worst possble dead to a dwarf ever! Of course they changed their mind when their king lost his head... hehehe.

No elves are arrogant jerks. Sure their good guys, and the majority want to better the world and so forth. Of course this isn't stopping them from thinking their s**t don't stink. They think their the perfect race!

Bet you are one of those jock-esque guys who think kilts = dresses.

As far as the girly-elf rubbish goes, I hardly see how the charmingly haunting alien-like characteristics of the elf in your screenshot equate to THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bish%C5%8Dnen). The elves of warhammer are menacing things that see things that do not match their culture's prowess of balanced perfection as inferior. Such things are viewed with a often passive aggressive form of contempt which mirrors the way I view alot of things that interfere with my daily life (holier-than-thou jerkoffs to name just one). Combined with their cruel-finesse and the fact that they are kind of the old guardians of the warhammer world (back before the younger races such as dwarves and humans came about the elves prevented the hordes chaos from overtaking the world), there is little reason for me to dislike the haunting presence of a Warhammer elf. There is just too many cool things to like about them.

Then again I don't expect someone who thinks Arnold Schwarzenegger is the stereostype for The Real Man to understand. As for the George Bush comment - that just makes you look silly, sir :???:.


By the way, Dwarves smell.

I was kidding about arnold and andy , I wouldn't sink so low as to SERIOUSLY compare an elf to andy . Of course arnold isn't the essiantial man, we all know thats chuck norris, who happens to have a beard...

Sure elves have a creepy dark side, but haunting??? Thats a bit far, once someone see's their self-absorbed side, I'm sure they seem much less alien.

Nothing haunting about this
http://media.pc.ign.com/media/748/748723/img_4824458.html
looks like a blond toothpick

[Koot]

... read giantslayer. Here you have the most powerfull elf mage, trying to help save the world, and pissing everyone off in the process.



With great power often comes an even greater ego.

Sure their good guys
It's they're not their.

They're!
They're!
They're!
THEY ARE!

[Aethelbeorht]

How can I like elves? Because when I think of elves, I think of Tolkien's elves. Not Tolkien's elves as portrayed in the movie, but his elves from the Silmarillion, more specifically the Noldor. I think of the elves who will kill their own kin if they stand in their way, the elves who would march through a deadly, frozen wasteland to reach their goal, the elves who would gladly leap into battle and kill with a fury which would astound a berserker, the elves who are unmatched in skill, will, and endurance. I think of the elves who make songs of such enduring beauty that your heart would break to listen to it, and who have had to bear tragedies and sorrows that would drive someone weaker mad with grief. I think of the elves who have known the highest bliss and the deepest sorrows, who have known great victories and crushing defeats, who have known and been consumed by both love and hate.

Warhammer High Elves may not be Tolkien's Eldar, but they are d*** close, in my eyes at least. And that, my friend, is why I like elves, regardless of the way they are perceived by others.

[Vaeronthar]

I never said they weren't arrogant, man. I love them for that flaw. Just, they aren't arrogant in the way you think. It's not because they think you're worthless, it's because they think you're like a small child. And there is a grain of truth to that.

[Garwin Graves]

Then again I don't expect someone who thinks Arnold Schwarzenegger is the stereostype for The Real Man to understand. As for the George Bush comment - that just makes you look silly, sir :???:.

Clint Eastwood, Sean Connery, and Sanjuro... THE REAL MEN

As for "OMFGHOWCULDULIKEN00BGIRLYELFS!111!!!ELEVEN!!!111!! !???"

Umm... not rightly sure. I think at this point it's just blind habit. Intelligence and finesse I suppose would originally be the draw. In general they're usually the (former) guardians of whatever setting. I suppose my arrogance in reality makes for a degree of natural magnetism when coupled with the elven supremacy complex.

When I was much younger I think a fear of death (I've long since grown out of) caused me to revere a fantasy race that could live effectively forever (depending on setting), or at the very least thousands of years, was a bit of a draw. I know starting out roleplaying I didn't want to think my character's epic tale could just end with old age. How a race that lives for thousands upon thousands of years is thought of as frail is beyond me.

Their culture/social structure always seems a little more intricate (Especially dark elves, hence their appeal for me over high elves... sorry... no *sob sob* "I'm just sad/angry, and hate the world" motivation behind that one, oh great manly dwarf of man-ocity.) Then the fact that magic is a little more integrated into their life, and they often have the 'lost awesome artifacts' every party of adventurers hopes to one day happen upon. Then their's their choice of weapons. Racially they just seem to favor... Polearms, Swords, and Bows... which just align with my favored weapons.

And well... for fantasy they're just sort of... iconic.

The elf/dwarf conflict is such a staple in playing either race. Some interesting social anomalies tend to happen between their two players, an almost tragic symbiotic one. I understand the jabs at one another. Though if you expected serious answers and not to be flamed by an army of elf-lovers to come... you may have considered leaving out the comments that would put most elf-enthusiasts on the defensive right away.

Common sense would dictate a dwarf walking into the elf forums would get flamed calling them women... the same way an elf in the dwarf forums would get flamed for calling all dwarves "One dimensional, beer-swilling, rock polishing, hammer stroking, idiots. With need-to-be-tough guy complex because I question my own sexuality in reality and need fantasy reassurance..."

[Krulgar Neckripper]

As much as I like the hulking wtfpwning hard man character, the dark sophistacted, arrogent character is sometimes a fun break. Even if I hate rich, snobby, arrogent people, all together and each of those seperatly, with a passion IRL xD.

[Skurk]

I don't like elves for several reasons, though they're all my tastes and everyone has their own too.

I don't like elves because of their attitude and mentality, their fragile elongated bodies, and their flashy craftsmanship. I just don't like anything about them. I don't see the sense in coming into these forums and question another peoples tastes about it, though.

[Serai]

Like some other people said, I would like to not like elves, but typically speaking, they have the careers available that I am most interested in, as is the case again.

[VeriusCarth]

For the reasons you mentioned, are the reasons I like them.

They're feminine, and not hugely over-muscular, and built like tiny rocks. I mean, I think Dwarfs look cool, but I prefer dexterity and general skill over straight brawn.
Elfs are very regal, and very mystical, and I've loved them since I was a little kid. They always seemed to me like the mysterious breed that willingly bears a lot of responsibility, and are deft, but modest about their skill in combat.

I've always loved the more tactical mindset of Elves; instead of allowing the enemy to crash upon your forces, and have them break like waves against a cliff, they strike at the important points in the enemy army, taking out their main opposition with as little confrontation as possible. Kind of like (Chinese) broadswords vs. straight swords. You can give anyone a broadsword and say "Swing" and get a limited amount of success, at least. With a Straight Sword, you're not simply slashing at everything around you, you have to have skill. You thrust your blade to disable, striking at the vulnerable areas, instead of simply just trying to cut them to shreds with wild slashes.

While I realize my analogy can be debated, that's my simple way of looking at it. I value the beliefs and ideals of Elfs, and the idea that they're a slowly dying portion of a once-great faction.

Hell, I hardly see them as the "Pretty" race, as my ideal elf generally looks feral. (I know in this case that'd be Wood Elves, but if I play a White Lion or Shadow Warrior, they're kinda close.) Not to mention that they're usually obscured by some gruff visage. I appreciate their history, their elegance, and their skill. They're no longer the strongest race around, nor are they physically as enduring as other races, but they make up for those shortcomings with skill, and determination.

Not to mention, they're generally the masters of the bow, and in real life, I absolutely love bows. So, it kind of figures they'd have that much over the other races.

[Krulltak]

general skill over straight brawn

Straight brawn is what orcs do. Dawi have brawn AND skill.

[Vikingkingq]

First off don't get me wrong. I'm actually serious when I'm asking this question. I'm not being sarcastic. I am really curious as to why the elves always seem to be the most popular race. I just can't wrap my mind around it. After reading giantslayer, I REALLY can't wrap my mind around it. Remember it is only my opinion, and I know I'm in a minority hateing elves and all (at least Paul's with me!)... and I know I will get flamed. But I am honestly curious!

Ok, so I was sitting here wondering... why are so many people attracted to elves. I just don't get it? I figured the best way to get my answer is to go strait to the source!

1st and formost, god, do most male elves look like girls! Just like anime guys! I know people like to play the "pretty" race, and I can understand the appeal of elves to women, but why would any guy like a race so unmanly! This applies to high elves, as apparently dark elf guys can be quite scary... and thus manly!

See, some of us are secure enough in our masculinity that we don't have to obsess about our characters' manliness. Besides, who decides what qualifies as manliness when it comes to a fantasy race?


2ndly their so wimpy! Sure they can swing a sword at blinding speed and are incredibly agile, but this is to offset their utter lack of toughness. It's like Arnold (terminator style), fighting Andy . Sure Andy is quick and might dodge the mighty ex-conan... but come on! Whose the real man?

Depends what you consider manly. Maybe you prefer Arnold, but I like Zorro, Inigo Montoya, and Solomon Kane. To hell with the juiced-up muscles, I'll take skill and speed.


3rd, their so damn snotty! You know the cliche rich guy. The snotty one EVERYONE hates? The one who laughs at the poor, and makes money without lifting a finger. Yes, the one that fully supports george bush only because it fills his own pockets. Imagine a race with a mindset thats very similar. You have High Elves. At least the dark elves are bad , but they got their own wierd leather and whip fetish thing goin on.

You don't get the High Elves. The High Elves are like the British Empire in the 1930-40's: insufferably arrogant, obsessed about their declining status, but doing the right thing in spite of all that. And as for their snottyness, they're just that damn good. When High Elves do things, they do them with unthinking grace, when they say things, it's incredibly witty, and whatever they do, they look good doing it.


Ok elves have magic... I never been a fan of mages, but I will admit magic can be pretty apealing, but EVERYONE has magic, and as far as magic casters go, the high elves's just can't seem to compare to the awesomeness of the magnus and bright wizard (of course my opinion).

Personally, I don't give a damn about the magic, although saying that Magi and Bright Wizards are better than the most advanced spellcasters in the Old World is a bit much.

What I like about High Elves?
Swordmasters - because they are like Marine-Jedis, because they're every iconic perfect samurai (Eltharion = Zatoichi) you've ever seen in a movie, because they make war an art form and six-foot greatswords their paintbrushes.
Shadow Warriors - because they're psychotic guerrilla warriors out to destroy every last Druchii who draws breath, because they're like ninja and rangers but done right, because Alith Anar is the true King of Nagarythe.
White Lions - because they're Anglo-Saxon Housecarls crossed with Hercules, because they have giant waraxes bigger than any Dwarf's, and because they kill lions with their bare hands.

[Skurk]

White Lions - because they're Anglo-Saxon Housecarls crossed with Hercules, because they have giant waraxes bigger than any Dwarf's.

I wonder what Gotrek would say.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well lad, kudos for you for trying to understand them, but I tell you they're like women, you'll never truly understand them, coincidentally their men look like their women ....
I jest.. I jest... ok kinda...:mrgreen:

Alright with that said now time to take a less comical approach to this.
You have to realize that not everyone plays their races becuase the relate to them, however I relate to Dwarfs, but I have learned that people sometimes only play for looks, or in WAR's case, classes.

However, since I like to relate to things, i'll tackle why some people actualy relate to elves.

Especily High Elves.

.... Ok one second, i'm trying to think of reasons how they could... oh ok here we go.

Like my good buddy Vaeronthar said, he looks like an elf, he looks very feminine(no insult intended, I doubt you'd take it that way but still nothing intended)

As for myself, I am a very stout person, I may not be short, but I am most definitly stout, I am also a very hairy person, I can cut my hair and or shave and it would be back really fast.

However I have never been a person to relate my appearance to Dwarfs, namely I relate to their culture and way of thinking, and I think the same goes for the elf fans, they just relate to High Elf culture, way of thinking, and society...
((this would explain why I don't like most Elf fans OOCly >.>)) Of course there are other reasons...

Also these people might want to relate to their race on a personality level, I have been told that I have a Dwarf personality by many people, ((half of them intended as insults))
I am a very outspoken person, and I joke alot, I also have a great sense of honor and pride, that I let no one tarnish ((Note I do not confuse pride and honor with self immage like many others))
I also have a ridged system of respect, that some people have told me is "outdated" or "passe"
((Note I do not confuse respect with civility, like most people do these days....))


Like some people who don't care if they can relate to the race they chosen, they just may have picked that race because of the way it looks
But then again I think Dwarfs look absolutly awsome, but yet I still relate to them.


However, trends have shown the the "less mature" to tend to flock to the Elves, why this is? I have no idea, this has always happend I guess it's due to the fact that High Elves from a human stand point just look better, that's not my opinion but I guess that's the majorities beliefs.

Well that sums up a few things I guess...

Oh and Vaeronthar, like you I also think that I don't need to prove my masculinity, i've never personaly cared to what others thought of me, just as long as they could keep their emotions out of the conversations I have with them.

(( So I thought it was a low blow you trying to say us Dwarf people feel like we have masculinity issues and all :P, atleast that's what I got from one of your posts))

EDIT Ok Vikingkingq, you're getting on my nerves.
See, some of us are secure enough in our masculinity that we don't have to obsess about our characters' manliness. Besides, who decides what qualifies as manliness when it comes to a fantasy race?

This was not a jest, it was an insult, however I ironicly found that many people who play elves ((Not most)) but many people who play elves are ususaly insecure about they way they look, and as such wish to reach such perfection inside a game, which personaly I think is childish.

[Vikingkingq]

I wonder what Gotrek would say.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2271&c=6

That's a pretty damn big axe. And he's wielding it single-handed!

[Krulltak]

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2271&c=6

That's a pretty damn big axe. And he's wielding it single-handed!


I'm afraid I'm going to have to hurt you Viking.

*tries to strangle Witch Hunter fanboy through stupid PC screen* Damn you internets, you have failed me ONCE AGAIN!

But in the mean time: The miniatures are all on heroic scale. In other words, EVERYTHING is overly-exaggerated in terms of size. Just look at the orcs, their forearms are the size of a state trooper's torso!

And that axe is another PERFECT example of heroic scale. It's actually much smaller then it would actually be. Elves go for finesse, not stupidly big.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to hurt you Viking.

*tries to strangle Witch Hunter fanboy through stupid PC screen* Damn you internets, you have failed me ONCE AGAIN!

But in the mean time: The miniatures are all on heroic scale. In other words, EVERYTHING is overly-exaggerated in terms of size. Just look at the orcs, their forearms are the size of a state trooper's torso!

And that axe is another PERFECT example of heroic scale. It's actually much smaller then it would actually be. Elves go for finesse, not stupidly big.


Agreed, however if there were whitelions that looked like him, I just my be convinced to go High Elf, as long as they mantained that nordic look..*think about it*.... nah still no way in hell....

[Vikingkingq]

EDIT Ok Vikingkingq, you're getting on my nerves.

This was not a jest, it was an insult, however I ironicly found that many people who play elves ((Not most)) but many people who play elves are ususaly insecure about they way they look, and as such wish to reach such perfection inside a game, which personaly I think is childish.

I feel the same way about you. Especially since your promise to stay off the Elf-bashing seems to have been rather transient at best.

And as for image perception, I hardly think that liking Dwarfs because they're macho shows any less insecurity about appearance. Indeed, if you look at a lot of posts about Elves - I'm especially thinking of the Blood Elf appearance threads from before Burning Crusade - there's a lot of latent and not-so-latent fear of "teh " when it comes to characters who look "pretty." Not that anyone here holds those opinions, but it is out there.

[Vikingkingq]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to hurt you Viking.

*tries to strangle Witch Hunter fanboy through stupid PC screen* Damn you internets, you have failed me ONCE AGAIN!

But in the mean time: The miniatures are all on heroic scale. In other words, EVERYTHING is overly-exaggerated in terms of size. Just look at the orcs, their forearms are the size of a state trooper's torso!

And that axe is another PERFECT example of heroic scale. It's actually much smaller then it would actually be. Elves go for finesse, not stupidly big.

Hehe. Your orcish might is no match for the interwebs.

And of course it's not in scale. But the same holds true for Dwarf axes, no?

[Krulltak]

Hehe. Your orcish might is no match for the interwebs.

And of course it's not in scale. But the same holds true for Dwarf axes, no?

It holds for every tabletop model.

Except orc weapons. I mean.... how else would those choppas give +1 Strength?

http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/orcsandgoblins/warboss-painting/images/5_lg.jpg BOOM BABY

[Thoden Firehammer]

I feel the same way about you. Especially since your promise to stay off the Elf-bashing seems to have been rather transient at best.

And as for image perception, I hardly think that liking Dwarfs because they're macho shows any less insecurity about appearance. Indeed, if you look at a lot of posts about Elves - I'm especially thinking of the Blood Elf appearance threads from before Burning Crusade - there's a lot of latent and not-so-latent fear of "teh " when it comes to characters who look "pretty." Not that anyone here holds those opinions, but it is out there.


Vikingkingq, mind you we took a poll on this, and it's even in my signature, and I told you that if the poll went that way i'd think about it and I might continue with the elf bashing.

However i'd like to inform you that what you posted wasn't a "bash" and by "bash" i'm going with comic jest, that quote was indeed an insult and nothing more, now if you were to mean it as a joke i'd have no problem with it...

However I agree with the rest of your post, even though it's not my opinion I can see where you're comming from...

[Vikingkingq]

Vikingkingq, mind you we took a poll on this, and it's even in my signature, and I told you that if the poll went that way i'd think about it and I might continue with the elf bashing.

However i'd like to inform you that what you posted wasn't a "bash" and by "bash" i'm going with comic jest, that quote was indeed an insult and nothing more, now if you were to mean it as a joke i'd have no problem with it...

However I agree with the rest of your post, even though it's not my opinion I can see where you're comming from...

Yeah, and then you said you'd stop anyway. Would you like me to show you the post?

And again, your "jokes" were the issue in question.

EDIT: And as for my comment, it's more of an observation than an insult. How would you explain the thought process that equates feminine = bad?

[Skurk]

Yeah, and then you said you'd stop anyway. Would you like me to show you the post?

And again, your "jokes" were the issue in question.

And as for my comment, it's nothing more than an observation about ELF players.

Any noob to the warhammer world thinks they can RP an Elf because Elves are snooty, arrogant, and unlikable. So what do they do? Spew a bunch of out of character insults against a race because that's what snooty people do.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Yeah, and then you said you'd stop anyway. Would you like me to show you the post?

And again, your "jokes" were the issue in question.

EDIT: And as for my comment, it's more of an observation than an insult. How would you explain the thought process that equates feminine = bad?


That promiss I made was before the poll and I said i'd consider what I would do after the poll.

We're not getting into this this, I thought about this for a while and conluded that the people who are offended or annoyed are a minority and can get over it.

And we're not going to get into this Viking, i'd rather keep this as ontopic as possible, after all you can't derail a thread with only one person, it takes two or more, and you've hapily derealied many threads that i've posted in...

Now back in the subjest, hopefully with this annoyance behind us, I have never equated feminine with bad, I also have no idea where you're getting this idea, any posts that in which I bashed elves for their feminine appearance has meerly been a joke...

[Vikingkingq]

Now back in the subjest, hopefully with this annoyance behind us, I have never equated feminine with bad, I also have no idea where you're getting this idea, any posts that in which I bashed elves for their feminine appearance has meerly been a joke...

Yes, but the joke bashing does basically suggest feminine = bad.

Moreover, the OP put it right up front:

"1st and formost, god, do most male elves look like girls! Just like anime guys! I know people like to play the "pretty" race, and I can understand the appeal of elves to women, but why would any guy like a race so unmanly! This applies to high elves, as apparently dark elf guys can be quite scary... and thus manly!"

[Krulltak]

If you ask me, Viking, I just say the OP doesn't understand a word of what he is actually talking about.

[Fusko]

Viking can keep a grudge, like a dwarf. And in true dwarf fashion Thoden was just keeping an oath he took. Hehe, just my little observation.


Anyway, I'd suggest everyone remain calm, and keep the e-peens from getting too big. You'll poke an eye out!

[Thoden Firehammer]

Yes, but the joke bashing does basically suggest feminine = bad.

Moreover, the OP put it right up front:

"1st and formost, god, do most male elves look like girls! Just like anime guys! I know people like to play the "pretty" race, and I can understand the appeal of elves to women, but why would any guy like a race so unmanly! This applies to high elves, as apparently dark elf guys can be quite scary... and thus manly!"


Remember I said you had a point, but I said my opinion on the matter was different so i didn't treat it as an absolute....

[Thorval]

High Elves in Warhammer aren't a freaking stereotypical elf... maybe. But they have the WHITE F*CKING LIONS, MAN!

[Selendor]

That promiss I made was before the poll and I said i'd consider what I would do after the poll.

We're not getting into this this, I thought about this for a while and conluded that the people who are offended or annoyed are a minority and can get over it.

And we're not going to get into this Viking, i'd rather keep this as ontopic as possible, after all you can't derail a thread with only one person, it takes two or more, and you've hapily derealied many threads that i've posted in...

Now back in the subjest, hopefully with this annoyance behind us, I have never equated feminine with bad, I also have no idea where you're getting this idea, any posts that in which I bashed elves for their feminine appearance has meerly been a joke...

Ya ever think that the 25% of people that were offended were probably...get this...the Elf players? Obviously other people don't care. I honestly wouldn't give a if somebody was raising hell in the Greenskin forums going into every thread talking about how stupid they are. Personally, I have enough respect for people not to do that.

As for going back on a promise you made to people you've offended...so much for Dwarfen honor.

As for the gender issue, Elves have men that look like women, but Dwarfs have women that look like men, so it balances out.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Ya ever think that the 25% of people that were offended were probably...get this...the Elf players? Obviously other people don't care. I honestly wouldn't give a if somebody was raising hell in the Greenskin forums going into every thread talking about how stupid they are. Personally, I have enough respect for people not to do that.

As for going back on a promise you made to people you've offended...so much for Dwarfen honor.

As for the gender issue, Elves have men that look like women, but Dwarfs have women that look like men, so it balances out.

Selendor, i'd ike to remind you that it takes a reply to get anything derailed, or off topic, I contintued, and you also helped in this, so I am wondering how would you like your foot, raw or grilled?

[Selendor]

I reply in the hope that you'll see that your opinion isn't asked for or appreciated in 90% of the threads that devolve into Dwarf/Elf pissing contests. The problem I have isn't the fact that threads go off topic, it's that you seem to have some sort of Elf-bashing agenda you're set on pressing. I never said that threads going off topic was a bad thing...if you'd read my post properly, you'd know that.

But then, that's Dwarfen literacy skills for ya.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I reply in the hope that you'll see that your opinion isn't asked for or appreciated in 90% of the threads that devolve into Dwarf/Elf pissing contests. The problem I have isn't the fact that threads go off topic, it's that you seem to have some sort of Elf-bashing agenda you're set on pressing. I never said that threads going off topic was a bad thing...if you'd read my post properly, you'd know that.

But then, that's Dwarfen literacy skills for ya.


Sel, as you can see, this is your opinon, and may be that of several other but it is still not the majority.

Now I would like to remind you that you have yet to contribut anything to the actual topic of this thread, and went streight for the personal attacks on me, which can be seen as trolling, yes if you have a good memory this is very ironic...

I'd also like to add that you're attacking me personaly which is something I never really did, becuase I never intended my elf bashes as insults, but it seems the minority, is so pasonate about their selected fantasy race, that they can't seem to tell the difference between a joke about their favorite fantasy race and an insult directed at them personaly...

Now would you like to add anything about the actual topic, or would you like to keep directing your comments at me?

[Jest]

Actually, the High Elves are the least-popular race from the current popularity polls in General Discussion. Possibly because they were the last to be announced, but still, I don't see the High Elves as being the most popular. I would give that honor to Empire, Chaos, and Dark Elves first. The High Elves of Warhammer do not resemble the anime-esque Night Elves from WoW. They look more ancient and somewhat extra-terrestrial. That being said, I like Elves for one reason: White Lions, quite possibly the coolest Warhammer unit.

But as for your question, why the Humans and Elves tend to be the most popular? Because the people who pick the game up off the shelves without having followed it for 3 years like most of us, tend to go for the race that most resembles them: Empire or High Elves.

But, I have a feeling that because the races in Warhammer are designed a lot better than "other popular MMOs", we will see a new trend. Chaos looks amazing, and Greenskins do as well. People will be able to play the "ugly races" without having to play horrible-looking characters. Compare the WAR Orcs to WoW orcs, and the Dark Elves to Blood Elves. There's a big difference.

[Captbigbeard]

Well I gotta say, this is excatly what I wanted, we haven't had enough dwarf/elf conflicts, and I love 'um! Both sides are are so damned passianate.

I gotta admit I am a bit surprised, coming from WoW and all, I'm used to the elf community being a bunch of anime loving, pointy eared, wannabe, whiners. People who play elves because they want their race pretty.

It would seem the warhammer elf crowd is very very diffrent. Don't be shocked I'm grouping people based on the favorite race (certainly not everyone applies), but you will find in almost EVERY game w/ dwarfs, the short guys arn't 100% popular, but a composed of a very nice and mature crowd. Thats one reason I always roll a dwarf (not literally roll one... hahaha... no?). I am impressed to see the elf player base is very much the same for a change! I excepted to be utterly flamed to death, but I have only gotten well thought out and reasonable answers to my question. I can honestly say I've almost been completely swayed, of course not nearly enough to ever play an elf.

Keep in mind the following elf insults are only half serious. Well maybe 75% serious.




Depends what you consider manly. Maybe you prefer Arnold, but I like Zorro, Inigo Montoya, and Solomon Kane. To hell with the juiced-up muscles, I'll take skill and speed.




Good point... I never even thought of that, Zorro is the man. Granted with an axe Conan could chop him in two!

High Elves in Warhammer aren't a freaking stereotypical elf... maybe. But they have the WHITE F*CKING LIONS, MAN!


Please tell me wearing a white lion fur, isn't considered manly... A davy crocket hat... THATS MANLY! A posh white fur is something that belongs on a supermodel runway. As far as that little picture of the elf holding an axe, we all know he dropped that thing after posing and trying to look all tough. It's for show he could never swing that ;)

As far as you elf lovers are concerned, us dwarf fans arn't insecure with our inner manliness. We're in touch with it, something no puny elf would understand. Your inner manliness is what causes you to grow a beard, chop down a tree, and pick up women from the 60's who are still into the beard thing! If we were insecure with are manliness we would play as an elf, like a cross dresser!

Go pick up the alphabet of manliness from your local bookstore (honestly it's laughout loud funny, I read it in like 1 day, and it's not really that short. Plus theres a picture of a guy punching a gorrila on the front, which is reason enough to know it will be good!) In this book L stands for lumberjack and P stands for pirate. Combine the two, and a little viking and gunpowder, then chop off their legs from the knees down and you have a dwarf! Enough said!

[Captbigbeard]

sorry double post... the freakin website keep's login me out out the double posting when I log back in.

[Kopesh]

Please tell me wearing a white lion fur, isn't considered manly... A davy crocket hat... THATS MANLY! A posh white fur is something that belongs on a supermodel runway. As far as that little picture of the elf holding an axe, we all know he dropped that thing after posing and trying to look all tough. It's for show he could never swing that ;)

Well, Chaos Warriors and Norscans usually wear fur. Do you call them unmanly?

Hi, I hope you don't mind an undead entering this heated elf-dwarf debate. :p I can't say what others think of elves and why they like them, but I can tell why I will play as one, either as my main or alt character. Elves know what is best for the world and struggle to keep the forces of darkness at bay. They also have a very good understanding of how the world really is: they know much about the true nature of the realm of chaos for example. The other races are very ignorant about many things and have very corrupt societies even if they also fight Chaos. The elves flaw of arrogance is a flaw I can live with as I understand their mindset.

Just for the record, if you haven't figured it out already, I would much rather play as an undead Nehekharian character than an elf. For me, Tomb Kings win thanks to the coolness factor and mood, but the High Elves are a close second because of the fact that they are missunderstood good guys that piss people of. :D

[Binkel]

Bet you are one of those jock-esque guys who think kilts = dresses.

As far as the girly-elf rubbish goes, I hardly see how the charmingly haunting alien-like characteristics of the elf in your screenshot equate to THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bish%C5%8Dnen). The elves of warhammer are menacing things that see things that do not match their culture's prowess of balanced perfection as inferior. Such things are viewed with a often passive aggressive form of contempt which mirrors the way I view alot of things that interfere with my daily life (holier-than-thou jerkoffs to name just one). Combined with their cruel-finesse and the fact that they are kind of the old guardians of the warhammer world (back before the younger races such as dwarves and humans came about the elves prevented the hordes chaos from overtaking the world), there is little reason for me to dislike the haunting presence of a Warhammer elf. There is just too many cool things to like about them.

Then again I don't expect someone who thinks Arnold Schwarzenegger is the stereostype for The Real Man to understand. As for the George Bush comment - that just makes you look silly, sir :???:.


By the way, Dwarves smell.


I must say, with all seriousness aside, and with no any relevance to the discussion/argument at hand that... Arnold rocks!

That's all I have to add to this thread until I read it through :)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Actually, the High Elves are the least-popular race from the current popularity polls in General Discussion. Possibly because they were the last to be announced, but still, I don't see the High Elves as being the most popular. I would give that honor to Empire, Chaos, and Dark Elves first. The High Elves of Warhammer do not resemble the anime-esque Night Elves from WoW. They look more ancient and somewhat extra-terrestrial. That being said, I like Elves for one reason: White Lions, quite possibly the coolest Warhammer unit.

But as for your question, why the Humans and Elves tend to be the most popular? Because the people who pick the game up off the shelves without having followed it for 3 years like most of us, tend to go for the race that most resembles them: Empire or High Elves.

But, I have a feeling that because the races in Warhammer are designed a lot better than "other popular MMOs", we will see a new trend. Chaos looks amazing, and Greenskins do as well. People will be able to play the "ugly races" without having to play horrible-looking characters. Compare the WAR Orcs to WoW orcs, and the Dark Elves to Blood Elves. There's a big difference.


True Jest, and that only strenghten's by beleif that there are very few people who actualy relate to Elves, and in fact many more people who just play Elves for the appearance.

Because I have no doubt the Elves will have a pretty high population once the game is out

[Captbigbeard]

Well, Chaos Warriors and Norscans usually wear fur. Do you call them unmanly?



Yes if they wear flamboyant white lion fur. At the very least they lose points, at least they can make up for it with a beard or crazy but very manly mutations.

Nothing says I'm a man like a giant crab claw popping out of your forehead.

Dwarfs are beer chuggin, axe swingin, beard growin, strong angrey little fat guys. Some even have mowhawks. Now HOW can an elf compare to that?

Oh and lets not forget the war of the beard. I almost regret mentioning it, because its a debate within its self. But if you want to compare the two races you gotta mention it. It represents all the flaws on both sides.

But anyway you slice it the dwarfs won the war. Sure they lost alot, but at the end of the day the elves ran away with their long girly hair inbetween their legs. Lets not forget the fact the dwarf king beheaded the elf king! Sure the elf king killed the dwarf prince, but he was young and foolish. Agianst a wiser smarter dwarf the elf KING met his match.

King vs King, the best vs the best, who killed who??? You can say, like the high elves do, that the elf king, Celdor II, refused to fight the dwarf king, being he wanted peace. However, you have to keep in mind this was the king who shaved a dwarf diplomat! I doubt such an arrogant fool would so easily and willingly toss his life away without a fight. Chances are the two did fight like the dwarfs say. Besides who has more of a habit of telling the truth, dwarfs or elfs.

The tough dwarf king killed the wimpy elf king... and most likly in a fair fight! Thus proving elves are hardly the super beings they claim to be.

[Duncan]

Yes if they wear flamboyant white lion fur. King vs King, the best vs the best, who killed who??? You can say, like the high elves do, that the elf king, Celdor II, refused to fight the dwarf king, being he wanted peace. However, you have to keep in mind this was the king who shaved a dwarf diplomat! I doubt such an arrogant fool would so easily and willingly toss his life away without a fight. Chances are the two did fight like the dwarfs say. Besides who has more of a habit of telling the truth, dwarfs or elfs.

The tough dwarf king killed the wimpy elf king... and most likly in a fair fight! Thus proving elves are hardly the super beings they claim to be.

Ok, lets beat a dead horse.White Lions- You know why they are called white lions? you think its because they wear flmaboyant white lion fur? THEY KILL GIANT MUTATED LIONS, WITH THEIR HANDS. They skin it, and use it as protection from ranged damage. You say they are weak? In the tabletop (which this game is based off of) they had strength 4, more then most dwarfs. Couple that with their giant, perfectly balanced axes that they weild with wicked precision, and yea, they are real girly...Now, anyway you cut it, the Elves and dwarves BOTH lost the war of the beard. If that "diplomat" hadn't drawn a weapon in front of the pheonix king, then it might have played out differently. Drawing the weapon was breaking the elven law, so Caledor (not celdor) had to do something. He (not knowing the shame it would bring) shaved the dwarves beard as punishment, because he HAD to punish him. Aside from killing the diplomat (which he might of well have done, we know how you little guys love your facial hair), he had no choice. So lets fast forward through a dumb war of arrogance and stubborness. I know both sides tell a different account, but from the accounts I've read, It said that Caledor had many chances to kill the dwarf king in single combat. but chose not to, because he knew that the war would never end then. So, he laid down his sword, and the dwarf king selfishly cut him down, took the crown. But you know what, the War Ended when this happened. The dark elves were attacking ulthulan, and since you dwarves were so content with refusing our help, they peaced out. So now what do we have? you have a crown in a keep under a mountain, we are down a great leader, for what? nothing. Hide behind the facade of honor and vengence all you want. the elves are arrogant, because they believe in the greater good, and actually have the means to obtain the greater good. Dwarves? they are a stubbrn selfish race.

[QuantumTheory]

Hi guys! Dont fear, Thoradin is here!

The people who play Elves are:

50% little children that want to look cool and badass

45% immature adults who like to look pretty cuz in really life you can't distinguish between their head and the zit that sitting in the middle of it.

5% real fans who like Elves for any deeper and better reason...

Now, not such a popular race anymore eh? Cuz who cares about the kids and adult malcreations that play them, those people usually s**k s**t. Now many of you Elf fans will start arguing with me about this point, but it has been proven over and over again, the most immature races are always and ALWAYS Elves. Now you guys are the 5% minority that likes Elves for some deeper and better reasons, I respect that, I don't think people here should question you about that. Therefore I am now directing the arguement at the little children.

To be honest though, Warhammer Elves don't actually look that good at all, Tolkien and other Elves look like elves, you can distinguish between men and women, but here, no offense, but the Archmage and Swordmaster pictures look so extremelly dull... its really ugly, they got no real form, their stomachs look bigger than their shoulders, and since they are so thin they look like matches. So much for Elves being sexy, cuz ,dunno about you guys but if I were an Elf Fan I'd sue the guy that drew those pictures.

EDIT: Had to add this quote lmao and flame it, cuz this is PURE show of Elven Arrogance:

Ok, lets beat a dead horse.White Lions- You know why they are called white lions? you think its because they wear flmaboyant white lion fur? THEY KILL GIANT MUTATED LIONS, WITH THEIR HANDS. They skin it, and use it as protection from ranged damage. You say they are weak? In the tabletop (which this game is based off of) they had strength 4, more then most dwarfs. Couple that with their giant, perfectly balanced axes that they weild with wicked precision, and yea, they are real girly...Now, anyway you cut it, the Elves and dwarves BOTH lost the war of the beard. If that "diplomat" hadn't drawn a weapon in front of the pheonix king, then it might have played out differently. Drawing the weapon was breaking the elven law, so Caledor (not celdor) had to do something. He (not knowing the shame it would bring) shaved the dwarves beard as punishment, because he HAD to punish him. Aside from killing the diplomat (which he might of well have done, we know how you little guys love your facial hair), he had no choice. So lets fast forward through a dumb war of arrogance and stubborness. I know both sides tell a different account, but from the accounts I've read, It said that Caledor had many chances to kill the dwarf king in single combat. but chose not to, because he knew that the war would never end then. So, he laid down his sword, and the dwarf king selfishly cut him down, took the crown. But you know what, the War Ended when this happened. The dark elves were attacking ulthulan, and since you dwarves were so content with refusing our help, they peaced out. So now what do we have? you have a crown in a keep under a mountain, we are down a great leader, for what? nothing. Hide behind the facade of honor and vengence all you want. the elves are arrogant, because they believe in the greater good, and actually have the means to obtain the greater good. Dwarves? they are a stubbrn selfish race.

Thats just your belief man. The Dwarf King pwned the Elvish King in single fair combat, that the end of it, because a Dwarf King would never have done an abomination such as selfishly killing an unprepared being (even if he were a cursed Elgi that kept arrogantly provoking him). That sounds more like what you Elves would have done. And lets not forget that you nearest cousins are THE most selfish, greedy, cruel and evil race in WAR...

P.S: I love that idea of bringing this arguement right up to the Elves face, I can hardly immagine anyone else being brave enough, and I am not being sarcastic. An ale to yeh matey.

[kizen]

This is a somewhat odd question. I guess it's similar to, "why do you like baseball over football. There is no(read: almost none) physical contact in baseball, but tough football players are running into each other all the time."

Honestly, some people don't value ultra-contact, down and dirty things. While both sports are valuable, they both bring two different things to the table.

That was more directed towards the immature posts of, "zomg elves are , and only little kids like elves blah blah" and the many other asinine posts.

But, to answer the op's question; I like elves because of their rich lore. Since they've been around for so long, they have so much history (not saying the other races don't). Racial splits, symbolic wars, fighting chaos...what is not to love. Also, I appreciate how graceful and deadly they are. Yagyu Munenori once said, "It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down." I think it would be accurate to apply that statement to the way elves fight, which is appealing to me as a martial artist. I also admire the fact that the elves are so devoted to perfection.

[Noesis]

2ndly their so wimpy! Sure they can swing a sword at blinding speed and are incredibly agile, but this is to offset their utter lack of toughness. It's like Arnold (terminator style), fighting Andy . Sure Andy is quick and might dodge the mighty ex-conan... but come on! Whose the real man?

Being a "real man" does not just mean you are physically strong. There are other arguably more important qualities. Namely wisdom, courage, temperence, etc. Many elves strive to achieve a wide variety of virtues that other races don't, or can't, even comprehend. Thus, they are more real than the "real men" which focus primarily on strength.


3rd, their so damn snotty! You know the cliche rich guy. The snotty one EVERYONE hates? The one who laughs at the poor, and makes money without lifting a finger. Yes, the one that fully supports george bush only because it fills his own pockets. Imagine a race with a mindset thats very similar. You have High Elves. At least the dark elves are bad , but they got their own wierd leather and whip fetish thing goin on.

You couldn't have been more wrong with this comment. Elves are enlightened individuals. They do not laugh at the poor simple because they are poor, and they would never support a moron such as Bush. I have no idea where you got this idea from. They only appear arrogant because a few elves have no qualms about telling things like they are. Only in America must people stifle their opinions in order to make weak and ignorant people feel comfortable. High Elven society has no such restrictions.

Keep in mind, if an elf were to say "High Elves have the most magical knowledge of the warhammer world", this would be seen as "arrogance" even though it is probably accurate and therefore not arrogant at all.


Ok elves have magic... I never been a fan of mages, but I will admit magic can be pretty apealing, but EVERYONE has magic, and as far as magic casters go, the high elves's just can't seem to compare to the awesomeness of the magnus and bright wizard (of course my opinion).

Everyone has magic, not everyone has high magic. I am not sure why you don't think creating Pheonix flames and burning your enemies regiments to charcoal husks isn't appealing. Especially when you are burning large, hairy, and muscular targets. Quite the spectacle.

the ONE thing I like about high elves is their little streak of insanity. Every high elf has to cope with a little bit of bloodlust. Now thats cool, but not cool enough if you ask me! They offset this with their long pretty hair.

Not everyone has long pretty hair. Most dwarves have long pretty beards that are decorated with all kinds of pretty jewelry. I could really care less how long or short their hair is. Conan had long "pretty" hair and you seem to think very highly of him.

[Duncan]

Thats just your belief man. The Dwarf King pwned the Elvish King in single fair combat, that the end of it, because a Dwarf King would never have done an abomination such as selfishly killing an unprepared being (even if he were a cursed Elgi that kept arrogantly provoking him). That sounds more like what you Elves would have done. And lets not forget that you nearest cousins are THE most selfish, greedy, cruel and evil race in WAR...

haha All right, Ill pull a Caledor and stop arguing with you, because arguing with someone so stubbornly set in their beliefs is like arguing with a brick wall. That being said, you take what you want to from the story, I'll take what I want to. You cant convince me your right, And I can't convince you your wrong. Cool, I like that you dont waiver. But all this elf / dwarf hate sentiments happened (in the IP) 4 thousand years ago. We've got a bigger and better phoenix crown now :)
Lets not forget the big picture Thoradin. We are on the same side.

As for their "nearest" cousins... well there is a reason High Elves are in a incredibly long civil war, because they are not selfish, greedy, cruel, or evil.


Edit: Good post noesis :)

[SirSeptin]

Why do I like elves?

Because they're better than you. Really. :p Yes, call it being arragont. Guess what, thats EXACTLY why I love them. See, they don't care if you think they're arragont. They know they're right, always. I play a Elven Character in roleplay that has an ego that would cause the moon to orbit his skull and I love every minute of it. Unashamedly saying what you think is right, never backing down on what you believe, thats what I love about elves. Dwarfs have their honor and grudges, who needs grudges when you can spread the truth. Thats what elves do, they spread the truth(as they see it, which of course is the only truth there is ;)), and they never back down or apologise for saying what they think. Now I'm not sure but I think if there was a race that lived thousands of years I MIGHT just listen to what they said and wouldn't get offended about their supposed 'snootiness'. Because hey, THEY LIVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Mabye, just mabye in that time they might come to know some stuff beyond the being that lives for under 100 or ever a few hundred years.

Also it makes me laugh so hard when people get annoyed or offended by elf players acting superior. I swear its whats kept me loving elves over the years, I'll always get a bite if I strut around saying how good I am, seems to be inbuilt in people to have to pull somone who thinks they are good down. *bows*

Anyway, lesser races and younger elvings, I must depart before the thread collapses in on itself from the weight of my awesomness.

*exeunts*

[Captbigbeard]

You say they are weak? In the tabletop (which this game is based off of) they had strength 4, more then most dwarfs. Couple that with their giant, perfectly balanced axes that they weild with wicked precision, and yea, they are real girly

Yes, thats what I've been saying! they are girly indeed! ;)


Now, anyway you cut it, the Elves and dwarves BOTH lost the war of the beard.


Yes both sides lost alot, but theres no way around the fact the elfs lost their king and pulled out. The elfs retreated, they LOST! Theres no points tallied at the end to see who lost more. Bottom line is the dwarfs ran the elfs out. Of course the elfs had a war at home, and they had little choice but to retreat. But if the dwarf king had lost his head, do you really think the elfs would have still retreated? Theres no way to be sure what really went down during the war, both sides see EVERYTHING diffrently.

In the end, pointy ears started the war, stunties ended the war. The elf king should have just paid the dwarf diplomat, it was ELFS that killed dwarfs. It's not the dwarf's faults that elfs are weak and give into the dark side.

the elves are arrogant, because they believe in the greater good, and actually have the means to obtain the greater good. Dwarves? they are a stubbrn selfish race.

The elfs are arrogant because they think their the sh*t. Their not arrogant because their "good guys, fighting the good fight." I seriously doubt they have the means to obtain the greater good. Their powerfull, but not enough to cure the world of chaos. Only man is strong enough.

You call dwarfs selfish??? Humans are selfish, ELFS are selfish, even crabs are selfish (HAHAHA!), dwarfs are NOT selfish. Over gold perhaps... but that hardly matters when their so willing to toss their lives away for an ally or friend. Dwarfs die regularly for the empire, elfs although an ally to mankind, do not make a regular habit of assiting the empire in every little war. The dwarfs have always been stout allies in the empire's times of need. This is a big deal considering how the empire have treated them, and how strained the dwarfs are on the warfront without the human's problems.

You couldn't have been more wrong with this comment. Elves are enlightened individuals. They do not laugh at the poor simple because they are poor, and they would never support a moron such as Bush. I have no idea where you got this idea from.
mah... your right about bush. I really can't see them supporting him.

As far as white lions go they are pretty cool, strong, and tough... or they might be if they weren't elfs! Something about the frail apperance and long curly blond hair makes them seem less itemidating. I bet the axes they use are fake. Paper mache or somethin. As far as a strength 4 goes... have you been eating over your manual because you clearly smudged some food over the 1. ;)

[VeriusCarth]

Hi guys! Dont fear, Thoradin is here!

The people who play Elves are:

50% little children that want to look cool and badass

45% immature adults who like to look pretty cuz in really life you can't distinguish between their head and the zit that sitting in the middle of it.

5% real fans who like Elves for any deeper and better reason...


Tests show that 75.9% of statistics are made up on the spot.

While I agree for the most part, still, I would assume it's got a bit more too it than that.


Straight brawn is what orcs do. Dawi have brawn AND skill.

I'm not necessarily going to disagree, but I mean mostly tactical skill, finesse over strength. Dwarfs are skilled in that they're all very strong, and very durable, they can weather assaults pretty well, and use their skill with mechanics to rain death on their foes. That sort of stuff.
So, I essentially phrased myself wrong in what I said, as I mostly mean that I prefer Dexterity, over Strength, in that way of thinking.

[Hatemonger]

What is so immature about liking the way your character looks?

[Kawnal]

*Sigh* another dwarf/elf thread. Haven't you guys realised how similar the two races psyches are?

Let's go down the list of things they have in common

Arrogance: check

Fine Craftmanship: check

Long, Proud History: check

Declining Civilizations: check

Sense of Honour: check

Wow, look at that, almost all of the traits that you hold so high are shared by you two, yeesh

Orcs are well... their living flaws.

Not true, the orcs have constructed a society that is perfect (for a greenskin) as it is simplistic. A greenskin is devoid of all flaws.


The elfs are arrogant because they think their the sh*t. Their not arrogant because their "good guys, fighting the good fight." I seriously doubt they have the means to obtain the greater good. Their powerfull, but not enough to cure the world of chaos. Only man is strong enough.


Uhm... what? Dwarfs think that anything that isn't dwarfish is a piece of crap. How can you use the arrogance arguement? Dwarfs are insanely arrogant.

[kizen]

People have made some very good points. But a few simple facts remain.

Everyone values different things, and has a different view on what is important, honorable, noble, etc etc etc...

Different situations require different attributes. You might need an incredibly strong person (dwarf) to move a gigantic stone so someone adept at magic (Helf Mage) can dispel a seal to a locked door that's immune to physical damage.

The OP clearly favors the brawny half of that scenario, but there is another person out there who values the magic side of that equation.

As far as the "girly" insult (it was clearly said in a negative manner) you should define girly, since I just did a search for "Girl bodybuilder" and you could make an argument that since they're girls that their image is "girly."

My next point being, that the fighting styles of dwarves and elves is so insanely different. Not everyone likes wearing 250lbs of heavy plate armor, and charging into the middle of a mob. Rather, they would wear leather, and cloth, so they can be subtle, and stealthy in order to flank an opponent so they can shoot an arrow into their back.

And I'd like to dispel any connotations that people have that being "girly" somehow makes someone unsuitable for war.

While a man (or dwarf ;)) might be immune to damage with all their armor on, they are still squishy under it... and when a pretty lady gets all that armor off only to put a knife in your exposed chest
your husky manlyness really hasn't saved you all that much from a girl now has it?

(Last time I ever go home with a girl with big hair and a chainmail bikini)

[Thoden Firehammer]

haha All right, Ill pull a Caledor and stop arguing with you, because arguing with someone so stubbornly set in their beliefs is like arguing with a brick wall. That being said, you take what you want to from the story, I'll take what I want to. You cant convince me your right, And I can't convince you your wrong. Cool, I like that you dont waiver. But all this elf / dwarf hate sentiments happened (in the IP) 4 thousand years ago. We've got a bigger and better phoenix crown now :)
Lets not forget the big picture Thoradin. We are on the same side.

As for their "nearest" cousins... well there is a reason High Elves are in a incredibly long civil war, because they are not selfish, greedy, cruel, or evil.


Edit: Good post noesis :)


Duncan, you're being quite the hypocrite, yes Quantam was looking from only one side of the coin, and his beliefs were set, but so were yours, and you tried to do the exact same thing Quantum did....

*Sigh* another dwarf/elf thread. Haven't you guys realised how similar the two races psyches are?

Let's go down the list of things they have in common

Arrogance: check

Fine Craftmanship: check

Long, Proud History: check

Declining Civilizations: check

Sense of Honour: check

Wow, look at that, almost all of the traits that you hold so high are shared by you two, yeesh



Not true, the orcs have constructed a society that is perfect (for a greenskin) as it is simplistic. A greenskin is devoid of all flaws.



Uhm... what? Dwarfs think that anything that isn't dwarfish is a piece of crap. How can you use the arrogance arguement? Dwarfs are insanely arrogant.

Kawnal, you are right in a general sense, but when you look deeper you notice many key differences between Elves and Dwarfsm actualy you don't even need to look deeper...

[Willstar]

In the end, pointy ears started the war, stunties ended the war. The elf king should have just paid the dwarf diplomat, it was ELFS that killed dwarfs. It's not the dwarf's faults that elfs are weak and give into the dark side.



*cough*Chaos Dwarfs*cough*

Deal with it lad.


Also, one of the few decent posts I've read here would have to be SirSeptin's own. Kudos to Seppy, winner of the greatest elf fan on the boards award! And he damn well deserved it! :D

[Thoden Firehammer]

*cough*Chaos Dwarfs*cough*

Deal with it lad.


Also, one of the few decent posts I've read here would have to be SirSeptin's own. Kudos to Seppy, winner of the greatest elf fan on the boards award! And he damn well deserved it! :D


... Well I knoiw I wouldn't get an award for being an elf fan... but shouldn't I get something for trying t understand them??((my first post on this page)):P

[Kawnal]

Kawnal, you are right in a general sense, but when you look deeper you notice many key differences between Elves and Dwarfsm actualy you don't even need to look deeper...

I'm not trying to say dwarfs and elves are the same and should hug (wouldn't that be sickening). But people play up the differences between them, they hold alot of the same values, most of their differences are based on the ways they interpret those values, that on top of historical conflict has left quite a nasty sore.

My point is that elves and dwarfs could quite easily get along if they looked past their shallow differences (not that I want that to happen!).

[kizen]

The only reason dwarves and elves don't get along is because we'd become an unstoppable steamroller and be forced to crush everyone. It really would be quite unfortunate.

[Garwin Graves]

Everyone values different things, and has a different view on what is important, honorable, noble, etc etc etc...

Different situations require different attributes. You might need an incredibly strong person (dwarf) to move a gigantic stone so someone adept at magic (Helf Mage) can dispel a seal to a locked door that's immune to physical damage


You left out those that would rather use an armada of dwarven slaves to move the rock...

[Captbigbeard]

*cough*Chaos Dwarfs*cough*

Deal with it lad.


Also, one of the few decent posts I've read here would have to be SirSeptin's own. Kudos to Seppy, winner of the greatest elf fan on the boards award! And he damn well deserved it! :D

HAHA! Chaos dwarfs are an example of how tough dwarfs are when coupled agianst chaos! First off let it be known, chaos dwarfs are so very few that without mass amounts of slaves they would simply vanish. Story goes, a bunch of dwarfs living in the far north were on ground zero when the time of chaos tore apart the northern reaches of the world. These dwarfs, exposed to mass amounts of chaos, survived where as all othe life within the area mutated so severly they strait out died. These dwarfs, although blasted with pure chaos, mutated very little. Where as any other race would have been turned into a giant blob of custard, the dwarfs grew tusks, and a nasty attitude, but remained quite dwarfy.

Elfs have a natural dark side, there is a definate temptation towards evil (one reason I do think warhammer elfs are cooler than other tolkienesq elfs). Dwarfs unlike almost everyother warhammer race, are just plain good. It took a mighty and lethal amount of chaos to warp their minds, and even this was not an instant or extreme change.

*Sigh* another dwarf/elf thread. Haven't you guys realised how similar the two races psyches are?

Let's go down the list of things they have in common

Arrogance: check

Fine Craftmanship: check

Long, Proud History: check

Declining Civilizations: check

Sense of Honour: check

Wow, look at that, almost all of the traits that you hold so high are shared by you two, yeesh

Dwarfs arn't arrogant because their the best! ;)

Lol, all dwarf biased views aside, it is true the two sides are alike, but their similiarties stem from the fact their civilizations are both so darned old!

1. Yes they are arrogant, because they both deserve to be... no races can compare to the wonders the dwarfs and elfs have created
2. Yes their fine craftsmen... the've had the time to practice.
3. Of course they have long proud histories, thats my point
4. their civilizations are falling, because thats the fate of all great civilizations. Plus they kinda screwed each other over...
5. I don't really agree about the sense of honor. The whole point of dwarfs is their so obssesed with honor, duty, and loyalty. Besides the elfs have done some underhanded things, the dwarfs really haven't, it goes agianst everything they stand for. Elf's have a natural sneakiness. Theres no honor in a fight if you sneak up behind someone and stab 'um in the back.

All their similarities are because their empires and history are so similar, not because the races are alike. In fact elfs and dwarfs are as diffrent as pirates and ninjas. One race loves magic, one race can't use magic. One race is quick and agile, one race slow but tough. One loves the open sky, the other feels at home underground. Take humans for example. The dwarfs treat them like an equal ally, and readily die for them. Elfs, although fairly trustworthy allies can hardly compare to the unyielding suport the dwarfs have given the empire. I have a feeling this will ultimatly save the dwarfs, if the world isn't overwhelmed by chaos.

Another great example of the diffrence between the two, is how they react to the war of the beard, in present warhammer time. The elves kinda wave it off and try not to think about it. Like WWII to the germans. The dwarfs have never forgotten or forgiven. Both views are flawed, yet vastly diffrent.

I like to think at least the dwarfs learned from the war of the beard though they wouldn't admit it. I think it made them more tolerant of other races (albiet it was too late for the elfs) mainly humans. They have constantly forgiven mankind for their flaws, and have remained their allies, even after the empire has polititly stabbed them in the back a few times. They see mankind as haveing great promise, as well as great weakness... and actually look past the weakness, possibly due to the price paid during the War of the beard.



By the way heres a link to the War of the Beard article published in the White Dwarf, I like to see this as the truth behind the issue because it was published for both the elves and the dwarfs to use.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/dwarfs/war-of-beard/

[Zeldias]

The main reason I like elves is because they're fey and their entire culture is a permeated with a sense of aestheticism. Dwarfs think that functionality equates beauty generally, and humans separate them, but elves just seem to be guided by it. It's like if every citizen in the US was a really good artist.

I'm not an elf-lover, per say, but I'm drawn towards artsy things. Usually, I play some sort of half-breed, but I'm really looking forward to playing either elf.

Plus, my girlfriend likes elves because they're pretty, and she's gonna want me to be an elf, so I don't exactly get to choose.

[Kawnal]

Lol, all dwarf biased views aside, it is true the two sides are alike, but their similiarties stem from the fact their civilizations are both so darned old!

1. Yes they are arrogant, because they both deserve to be... no races can compare to the wonders the dwarfs and elfs have created
2. Yes their fine craftsmen... the've had the time to practice.
3. Of course they have long proud histories, thats my point

So you see the similarites, no?


4. their civilizations are falling, because thats the fate of all great civilizations. Plus they kinda screwed each other over...

Doesn't change the fact that they're in the same boat


5. I don't really agree about the sense of honor. The whole point of dwarfs is their so obssesed with honor, duty, and loyalty. Besides the elfs have done some underhanded things, the dwarfs really haven't, it goes agianst everything they stand for. Elf's have a natural sneakiness. Theres no honor in a fight if you sneak up behind someone and stab 'um in the back....

Just to be clear, we're talking specifically about High Elves here. What underhanded deeds have the High Elves committed? Although, I agree, the dawi rarely to never commit attrocities (however, if youre talking about dark elves, it's only fair that I point out that the chaos dwarfs have done some prettay bad things), however there is something to be said for damning your entire race into decline over a beard...


All their similarities are because their empires and history are so similar, not because the races are alike. In fact elfs and dwarfs are as diffrent as pirates and ninjas. One race loves magic, one race can't use magic. One race is quick and agile, one race slow but tough. One loves the open sky, the other feels at home underground. Take humans for example. The dwarfs treat them like an equal ally, and readily die for them. Elfs, although fairly trustworthy allies can hardly compare to the unyielding suport the dwarfs have given the empire. I have a feeling this will ultimatly save the dwarfs, if the world isn't overwhelmed by chaos.

You didn't REALLY read my post did you? I said that the dwarfs and elves hold much the same values. Of course the races are different, they just aren't nearly THAT different.


Another great example of the diffrence between the two, is how they react to the war of the beard, in present warhammer time. The elves kinda wave it off and try not to think about it. Like WWII to the germans. The dwarfs have never forgotten or forgiven. Both views are flawed, yet vastly diffrent.

I'll agree with you on this point, though it doesn't really help your arguement. How different are North Americans compared to the Germans?


I like to think at least the dwarfs learned from the war of the beard

WHAT?! The dwarfs would gladly fight it all over again over some other stunties beard. Don't kid yourself.

[kizen]

. Theres no honor in a fight if you sneak up behind someone and stab 'um in the back.

Going home alive is far greater than some idiotic sense of honor.

At the end of the day, the winner is the one who goes home alive... not the poor b**tard who is laying face down in the dirt with a knife in his back.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Going home alive is far greater than some idiotic sense of honor.

At the end of the day, the winner is the one who goes home alive... not the poor b**tard who is laying face down in the dirt with a knife in his back.


That is a matter of opinion, and I can prove that it is by referencing you to pre ww2 Japan.

However we do know Dwarfs will ambush. However sneak attacks .. i'm not too sure on.

Dwarfs in combat use "Warriors honor" which is basicaly

1.Don't run out of fear
2.Don't lose to your opponent.
3.Win without resorting to "cheep tricks" such as sand in the eyes and what not

rule 3 promotes quick killing because longer fights will usualy encourage "dirty fighting"

[Skurk]

Going home alive is far greater than some idiotic sense of honor.

At the end of the day, the winner is the one who goes home alive... not the poor b**tard who is laying face down in the dirt with a knife in his back.

Tell that to a Slayer.

Dwarfs don't have the human sense of victory by survival. You have to understand that dwarfs don't comprehend that train of thought about undermining their own honor to survive combat. If there's a fight, dwarfs will not walk away from it. Stubborn? You bet.

[Nathar]

While we got the questions going. Why is it that 70% of all dwarf fans have a special hatred for elves?

I mean sure many elf fans like to bash at dwarfs and it's just as weak but I don't see many "How can you like shorti.. I mean dwarfs?" threads in the dwarf forum-thingy. I respect that a few people don't like elves but so many? It must be because either you think elves are too perfect (I find many things that are too perfect annoying.. guys like Johnny Depp for example, great actor but all the girls like him, it's unfair!) or that there's just a elf-hate-gene next to the dwarf-love-gene. I don't get it!

[Gaazruk]

While we got the questions going. Why is it that 70% of all dwarf fans have a special hatred for elves?

I mean sure many elf fans like to bash at dwarfs and it's just as weak but I don't see many "How can you like shorti.. I mean dwarfs?" threads in the dwarf forum-thingy. I respect that a few people don't like elves but so many? It must be because either you think elves are too perfect (I find many things that are too perfect annoying.. guys like Johnny Depp for example, great actor but all the girls like him, it's unfair!) or that there's just a elf-hate-gene next to the dwarf-love-gene. I don't get it!
That may be part of it but the War of the Beard plays a huge part in WH elf hate as far as RPing dwarfs go.

[Nathar]

That may be part of it but the War of the Beard plays a huge part in WH elf hate as far as RPing dwarfs go.

That wasn't my question. In fact my question wasn't related to RP at all. I am completely aware of why there's distrust between the races, but I don't see how it carries that fiercely into real life.

[Thoden Firehammer]

While we got the questions going. Why is it that 70% of all dwarf fans have a special hatred for elves?

I mean sure many elf fans like to bash at dwarfs and it's just as weak but I don't see many "How can you like shorti.. I mean dwarfs?" threads in the dwarf forum-thingy. I respect that a few people don't like elves but so many? It must be because either you think elves are too perfect (I find many things that are too perfect annoying.. guys like Johnny Depp for example, great actor but all the girls like him, it's unfair!) or that there's just a elf-hate-gene next to the dwarf-love-gene. I don't get it!


Alright, to make this clear, none of the Dwarf fan actualy "hate" elves, we just don't like elves.

I respect that a few people don't like elves but so many? It must be because either you think elves are too perfect (I find many things that are too perfect annoying.. guys like Johnny Depp for example, great actor but all the girls like him, it's unfair!)
And no we do not dislike elves because

Trust me, we dwarf fans don't hate elves because we think their "too perfect" infact their quite flawed in our opinions.

The truth is that Elves have always represented the opposite of the Dwarfs, so as such if you like Dwarfs, for reasons such as most of the devoted Dwarf fans do.

Like say heritage, culture, personality, beliefs, ect.
Than you're going to dislike the elves....

here's the simplest description I can give both Elves and Dwarfs to make it clear.

Dwarfs are like self made men, people who got where they are because of hard work, and Elves are more like the pompus spoilt, over rich people...

You don't hate them because they have alot of money, you hate them because their character and personality is your exact opposite, they didn't have to earn a thing and as such they do not know the value of work and money in comparison to the self made man, understand?

[Nathar]

Thanks Thoden. It was a meaningful post and I liked it.

understand?

I do. I don't agree but I understand and it was nice to get an actual explanation I can respect.

[SirSeptin]

Dwarfs are like self made men, people who got where they are because of hard work, and Elves are more like the pompus spoilt, over rich people...

You don't hate them because they have alot of money, you hate them because their character and personality is your exact opposite, they didn't have to earn a thing and as such they do not know the value of work and money in comparison to the self made man, understand?

lol. Yes, the dwarves are the poor hard working average jo toiling away just to survive. *sheds a tear for those poor brave souls*

Yeah, nice and touching but completly irrelevent. Not to put a dampner on anyones deep and meaningful discussion about why they like/dislike two FANTASY races but come on. Lets stop trying to show how deeply we think about these most important matters and show our in depth perfect reasoning. Just be honest. You'll feel better. I've already said why I like elves. Its nothing deep, I enjoy playing them because they're elitist arragont goody-two-shoes. See now I'm not going to make any comments on dwarves seeing as this is a thread about liking ELVES.

Please take your teenage deep and meaningful conversations to msn if you want o exposition on the merits and hidden meanings behind dwarfs and elves.....because honestly it doesn't interest me. (there I go again being arragont....suggesting I might matter, sorry :p)

anyway I'm done ranting, thoden, you need to get a new hobby. Your last 5 posts arn't really bringing anything new to the table, just adding more words or rewording bits.

*exeunts once more*

[GrimmJaw]

Orcs are well... they're living flaws.


"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn’t even bother to ask. We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude."

Ulthan the Perverse

Booyah. Orcs rule, end of story. A perfectionistic Eldar said so, so it must be true :)

[Nathar]

Booyah. Orcs rule, end of story. A perfectionistic Eldar said so, so it must be true :)

You don't even need some posh future dude to figure that out. All you need to do is to compare a cockroach to a human. Chances are they'll outlast by several lengths. It isn't always the highest level of conciousness (sp?) that makes you the pinnacle of evolution.

[Atheis Kurayami]

As many times as the war of the beard gets brought up, it makes me wonder about where you guys are getting your information. By the sound of it, it is the 6th ed army books. If thats the case, you have the wrong information. In the 6th ed army books the only book that sorta gives the proper account is the dwarf book and it leaves out a lot of the really interesting facts. The high elf book in 6th ed is one of the worst books from the set. (the dark elf being the other really bad book) If you want a much better account of the story try and find the 5th ed books, but since they are out of print I'll give a summary of what happens.

The faction that started the war was in fact the dwarves, not the high elves. They of course were tricked into it by the dark elves. Malekith engineered the whole war in an attempt to weaken the elven forces on Ulthuan. The reason why the dwarves didn't know about the dark elves is aside from a few naval battles the civil war didn't reach the old world. And to a dwarf the concept of a civil war is a totally alien idea. No dwarf would ever break his oath to his lord, and kin slaying is the worst disgrace a dwarf can suffer. Being a kin slayer is even worse than having your beard shaved off. The dark elves play off this and started raiding dwarf caravans dressed as high elf warriors. King Gotrek demanded recompense from the elves and the reply that Caledor II sent was undiplomatic. The message was "The phoenix king did not answer demands but granted pleas". To imply that a dwarf king should beg for anything is almost as bad as having your beard shaved off and Gotrek's response was, he made pleas to neither elf nor god and demanded twice the recompense originally asked because of the implied insult. Caledor shaved the ambassador's beard off and sent him home. If this wasn't bad enough during this time the dark elves are generally running around causing problems. The dwarves response to beard shaving was only one thing war. And they attacked Tor Alessi with Gotrek stating his mighty oath "He would have his money or it weregeld price in elf blood or eh would shave his head" his ambassador had already become a trollslayer in response to his beard being shaved off and the dwarf forces were determined that their king avoid a similar fate.

Caledor was outraged when he heard about the siege and sent and expeditionary force, leaving Ulthuan almost defenseless in the process. What resulted was a bitter war that lasted 396 years and completely destroyed both sides military power. The war finally ended at the 14th siege of Tor Alessi Caledor the second was so angry at his general's lack of progress dismissed them took personal command and charged head long into the heart of the dwarf infantry only to be cut down by King Gotrek who took the crown off his head as payment for the war. The book says it best when describing the war of the beard "It was a petty, spiteful, and pointless war and worse was yet to come." The dwarves claimed victory and the cost of their empire and the elves lost their closest allies and the colonies in the old world.

[Nathar]

And I believe your careful explanation of the story proves one thing. Dark elves have more interest and insight in other races' traditions and habbits then both the dwarfs and the high elves. Who are now the arrogant and undiplomatic fools I ask ye? Muhaha! The forum proves our success.

Sorry, couldn't help me'self.

[Tyrannar]

I like both high elves and dawi.

You guys need to take a chill pill.

[Nathar]

I like both high elves and dawi.

You guys need to take a chill pill.


Interestingly enough though, it says high elf swordmaster in your class thingy under your avatar. I'm not saying the opposite won't happen some day, but it is very rare to see someone who prefers dawi who also likes Asur.

Just saying.

[Duncan]

As many times as the war of the beard gets brought up, it makes me wonder about where you guys are getting your information. By the sound of it, it is the 6th ed army books. If thats the case, you have the wrong information. In the 6th ed army books the only book that sorta gives the proper account is the dwarf book and it leaves out a lot of the really interesting facts. The high elf book in 6th ed is one of the worst books from the set. (the dark elf being the other really bad book) If you want a much better account of the story try and find the 5th ed books, but since they are out of print I'll give a summary of what happens.

The faction that started the war was in fact the dwarves, not the high elves. They of course were tricked into it by the dark elves. Malekith engineered the whole war in an attempt to weaken the elven forces on Ulthuan. The reason why the dwarves didn't know about the dark elves is aside from a few naval battles the civil war didn't reach the old world. And to a dwarf the concept of a civil war is a totally alien idea. No dwarf would ever break his oath to his lord, and kin slaying is the worst disgrace a dwarf can suffer. Being a kin slayer is even worse than having your beard shaved off. The dark elves play off this and started raiding dwarf caravans dressed as high elf warriors. King Gotrek demanded recompense from the elves and the reply that Caledor II sent was undiplomatic. The message was "The phoenix king did not answer demands but granted pleas". To imply that a dwarf king should beg for anything is almost as bad as having your beard shaved off and Gotrek's response was, he made pleas to neither elf nor god and demanded twice the recompense originally asked because of the implied insult. Caledor shaved the ambassador's beard off and sent him home. If this wasn't bad enough during this time the dark elves are generally running around causing problems. The dwarves response to beard shaving was only one thing war. And they attacked Tor Alessi with Gotrek stating his mighty oath "He would have his money or it weregeld price in elf blood or eh would shave his head" his ambassador had already become a trollslayer in response to his beard being shaved off and the dwarf forces were determined that their king avoid a similar fate.

Caledor was outraged when he heard about the siege and sent and expeditionary force, leaving Ulthuan almost defenseless in the process. What resulted was a bitter war that lasted 396 years and completely destroyed both sides military power. The war finally ended at the 14th siege of Tor Alessi Caledor the second was so angry at his general's lack of progress dismissed them took personal command and charged head long into the heart of the dwarf infantry only to be cut down by King Gotrek who took the crown off his head as payment for the war.

Man, good read. I never took a look at 5th ed., now Ill have to try and find one. Thanks Atheis for the good post.

The book says it best when describing the war of the beard "It was a petty, spiteful, and pointless war and worse was yet to come." The dwarves claimed victory and the cost of their empire and the elves lost their closest allies and the colonies in the old world
-amen

[Nathar]

Man, good read. I never took a look at 5th ed., now Ill have to try and find one. Thanks Atheis for the good post.


-amen

In general you can find tons of lore in the 5th edition compared to 6th. Apart form the artwork there wasn't really anything good about the 6th in comparison. That's my experience anyway. Some might disagree.

[Tyrannar]

Interestingly enough though, it says high elf swordmaster in your class thingy under your avatar. I'm not saying the opposite won't happen some day, but it is very rare to see someone who prefers dawi who also likes Asur.

Just saying.

Guess what, I could only put in one class there. And besides, I'll play Swordmaster first ( not mainly) because the class itself seems extremely cool to me, not 'cus it's an elf. I'll also play an engineer and a black guard. At the moment I'm mostly psyched about the Swordmaster though. All that may change before release though. I'd put Swordmaster/Engineer/Blackguard up there if I could.

Just saying.

[Vidrak]

I started my gaming career in EQ, playing a Wood Elf Ranger. Basically, based off my D&D character. From there, I went to a Dark Elf Necromancer. Then I went on a Dwarf Cleric/Healer kick for many, many games. I always like blacksmithing and Dwarves are always hardy fighters in games, so they were a good fit for my play style.

But, after playing the table top for many years, I fell in love with the Orcs and Goblins of Warhammer. Not only are they powerful, they are hilarious and fun to play. You never know what is going to happen, and whatever does, it is ALWAYS a riot.

Many of my friends played Elves on the table top, in which I would smash their tiny bones each and every game. And in me, it grew that elves were weak, and rightfully proven so. I grew to know them as my enemy, so I never really played them anymore after that.

I have nothing against Elves personally, they are a cool race in Warhammer. But I like the crude, simplistic, war-starved rage of the Greenskins. Launching myself into a castle via catapult, bellowing out WAAAAAGH! vs. swinging a sword with skill while curling my hair at the same time. It doesn't really compare. I am definitely with Paul on the view of Elves in Warhammer. I might try a DE at some point, but you won't catch me EVER playing a High Elf.

[Captbigbeard]

As many times as the war of the beard gets brought up, it makes me wonder about where you guys are getting your information. By the sound of it, it is the 6th ed army books. If thats the case, you have the wrong information

Actually in my previous post, I posted the white dwarf article, which is pretty much the same as the one you posted.

When I take into account who started the war of the beard, I realize it was both races. Everyone knows the war of the beard was caused through the flaws of both races. Some facts are questionable, but thats not. But the elfs, more than either race could have prevented it. It was the dwarf blood that was shed first. Bottom line ELF'S slayed dwarfs. This whole thing started because some pointy ears (albiet dark elfs TRYING to start a war) kiled some dwarfs. The dwarfs, despite their nature, wanted to avoid war and asked for simple recompinsation.... ALLOT of recompinsation. This of course was only fair, what else could the dwarf king had done other than go to war or ask for some form of payback? He didn't know about dark elfs, and I don't think the elf king even tried to explain dark elfs. Although it would have taken some time to have gotten the dwarfs to accept the civil war was out of high elf hands, the dwarfs wouldn't have been SO angry at the high elfs.

What did the elf king do... shaved the dwarf! He could have kicked him out, could have locked him up, could have strait out ignored him, but no he shaved him. Now you elfs think it's silly that a dwarf would care so much about a beard, but it's just their culture, they value age and wisdom above all, hence a beard (a natural measure of age), means so damn much to them. It's literally a social status hanging from their neck. It speaks for their wisom, their battles, their experiance. Removing a dwarf beard is only slightly worse then killing him, and in a dwarf mind it may be EVEN worse than death. Being they were allies for so long, and the fact elfs are pretty damn smart, I'm sure the elf king knew this. He knew that THAT one act would lead to war.

In the end the cocky arse got what he deserved, the dwarf strait up chopped of his head in mid battle.There probebly was no glorious show down between the two, and certainly no begging for peace by the elf. If the war had gone on, perhaps the two empires would have blasted themselves into nothing. Perhaps it was the smart move to retreat. But thats whats so great about dwarfs that elfs just don't have. Dwarf's are no mad men, but compared to all other "sane" races, they just don't fear death. Someone in one of the above posts said it perfectly. If the dwarfs were the surviving force on the battle field, that wouldn't certainly mean victory for them, their always looking at the bigger picture, even if it means throwing away their own lives. Almost EVERY dwarf would die for his people without a second thought...

[kizen]

War is not about dying for your country as you make it seem. It's about making the other guy die for his.

But, I think it's safe to say, this horse has been beaten to death so many times it's not even funny. It's safe to say any argument made is with extreme bias, and no one is willing to change their opinion. Which makes me wonder, what is the point of all this, since it clearly has NOTHING to do with the original question.

[Captbigbeard]

War is not about dying for your country as you make it seem. It's about making the other guy die for his.

But, I think it's safe to say, this horse has been beaten to death so many times it's not even funny. It's safe to say any argument made is with extreme bias, and no one is willing to change their opinion. Which makes me wonder, what is the point of all this, since it clearly has NOTHING to do with the original question.

Good point... like all dwarf vs elf discuissions this has moved to the war of the beard, who won.

So war of the beard put aside I have a good question! Can elf craftsmenship come close to dwarfs? They make pretty stuff, but is an elf sword as deadly as a dwarf's axe? Sure it's a finese weapon, but all things compared and considered which would be the better.

[Selendor]

Good point... like all dwarf vs elf discuissions this has moved to the war of the beard, who won.

So war of the beard put aside I have a good question! Can elf craftsmenship come close to dwarfs? They make pretty stuff, but is an elf sword as deadly as a dwarf's axe? Sure it's a finese weapon, but all things compared and considered which would be the better.

Depends. If you're a Dwarf, and your chosen weapon is always wielded with the blunt finesse of a caveman, obviously the heavier dwarf weapons will be of more use to you. In the hands of a master swordsman, however, a finely-crafted elf blade is a better fit.

[Barundin]

Good point... like all dwarf vs elf discuissions this has moved to the war of the beard, who won.

So war of the beard put aside I have a good question! Can elf craftsmenship come close to dwarfs? They make pretty stuff, but is an elf sword as deadly as a dwarf's axe? Sure it's a finese weapon, but all things compared and considered which would be the better.

Not really, canon lore says that dwarfs are the greatest craftsmen in the world. This does obviously not prevent elves from making pretty stuff, but still.

[Selendor]

Not really, canon lore says that dwarfs are the greatest craftsmen in the world. This does obviously not prevent elves from making pretty stuff, but still.

If by canon lore you mean the Dwarf army book, sure. The Elf army book claims the same thing. That said, I employ both Dwarf and Asur slaves, they both do a fine job.

[Atheis Kurayami]

Actually in my previous post, I posted the white dwarf article, which is pretty much the same as the one you posted.

When I take into account who started the war of the beard, I realize it was both races. Everyone knows the war of the beard was caused through the flaws of both races. Some facts are questionable, but thats not. But the elfs, more than either race could have prevented it. It was the dwarf blood that was shed first. Bottom line ELF'S slayed dwarfs. This whole thing started because some pointy ears (albiet dark elfs TRYING to start a war) kiled some dwarfs. The dwarfs, despite their nature, wanted to avoid war and asked for simple recompinsation.... ALLOT of recompinsation. This of course was only fair, what else could the dwarf king had done other than go to war or ask for some form of payback? He didn't know about dark elfs, and I don't think the elf king even tried to explain dark elfs. Although it would have taken some time to have gotten the dwarfs to accept the civil war was out of high elf hands, the dwarfs wouldn't have been SO angry at the high elfs.

What did the elf king do... shaved the dwarf! He could have kicked him out, could have locked him up, could have strait out ignored him, but no he shaved him. Now you elfs think it's silly that a dwarf would care so much about a beard, but it's just their culture, they value age and wisdom above all, hence a beard (a natural measure of age), means so damn much to them. It's literally a social status hanging from their neck. It speaks for their wisom, their battles, their experiance. Removing a dwarf beard is only slightly worse then killing him, and in a dwarf mind it may be EVEN worse than death. Being they were allies for so long, and the fact elfs are pretty damn smart, I'm sure the elf king knew this. He knew that THAT one act would lead to war.

In the end the cocky arse got what he deserved, the dwarf strait up chopped of his head in mid battle.There probebly was no glorious show down between the two, and certainly no begging for peace by the elf. If the war had gone on, perhaps the two empires would have blasted themselves into nothing. Perhaps it was the smart move to retreat. But thats whats so great about dwarfs that elfs just don't have. Dwarf's are no mad men, but compared to all other "sane" races, they just don't fear death. Someone in one of the above posts said it perfectly. If the dwarfs were the surviving force on the battle field, that wouldn't certainly mean victory for them, their always looking at the bigger picture, even if it means throwing away their own lives. Almost EVERY dwarf would die for his people without a second thought...


Actually if the dwarves really wanted to get even with the elves before the war started it wouldn't have been all that difficult. All the dwarf king had to do was shave the elf ambassador's hair. Little know fact about elves( and this applies to all elves not just high elves, after all the other 2 faction of elves used to be high elves), elves have long hair for a reason. The reason isn't because it makes them look good, and I quote directly from the 5th ed book. "For the high elves long hair is a symbol of strength, power, and nobility, a mark of a real warrior. Locks of hair are important talismans for the elves. In the elven legends the most powerful heroes always have long flowing hair. The white lions of Charce, who are reknown for their prodigious strength, take great pride of their hair that grows golden or jet-black. They weave iron cords into their long plaits so they will not be cut in the heat of battle, as this would mean that he would become weak in the midst of war. All high elf warriors decorate their hair with combs made of silver or gold, and decorated with bright gems like diamonds and rubies. "


The elves didn't retreat from the old world after Caldeor the second was killed, in fact they were gearing up for a suicidal attack to Karaz-a-Karak. Something else stopped them from continuing to fight the dwarves. The dark elves attacked Ulthuan, and the new Pheonix King Caradryel had to make a choice. And the choice he made was to abandon the old world. This caused a great outcry of as leaving the original phoenix crown in the hands of the dwarves was an insult to elvish pride. He response was he would rather lose the crown than the realm and continued with his policy.

The reason the war started wasn't because the dark elves attacked the dwarves, it was because the dwarves blamed the high elves. Admittelty Caldeor wasn't exaclty the best king. In fact he is refered to by quite a sizable amount of elf players as Caldeor the idiot. He is also the only king to ever be elected because of hereity.(His father Caldeor the first was the king who lead the elves during the sundering, and his grandfather was Caldeor the dragontamer, the most powerful mage in history he's the one who created the vortex)

For the crafting question, elves and dwarves don't craft the same way. But if had an elf and dwarf craft a suit of armor or a sword or something along those lines. The dwarf one would be vastly superior to the elf one. When it comes to forging magical gear the most powerful magical artifacts ever made trace back to the first war of chaos. They were crafted by the most powerful dwarf runesmiths and enchanted by the most powerful elven mages. In fact to claim nobility in high elf society and be able to vote on the next phoenix king you just have to own a magical weapon crafted in the first war of chaos.

[Vikingkingq]

Here's a question: doesn't the fact that more recent versions mention the axe-drawing suggest that that detail is more canon than older editions?

[Barundin]

If by canon lore you mean the Dwarf army book, sure. The Elf army book claims the same thing. That said, I employ both Dwarf and Asur slaves, they both do a fine job.

Fine, give me a quote from an elven army book that claims that they are the greatest craftsmen in the world.

[QuantumTheory]

Wait wait wait now just one minute here... first all of you argue how good Caledor's actions were, that is was the Dwarfs who were wrong all along... now that we prove you wrong in many points, you start retreating and acting like you didn't think otherwise all along. Only now you say that even Elf players call Caledor an idiot, but before you were proved wrong, you were acting like he was brave, as if his actions were for the greater good, as if he 'sacrificed' himself (not heard of many Elves doing that) to stop the war... I find that a bit wierd.

And no, the war did not start because the Dwarfs blamed the High Elves. If the High Elves would have paid back the gold, and if Caledor wouldn't have started showing off extreme arrogance by shaving a Dwarf ambassador and provoking the Dwarf King, it would have went better. But it was the Elves who had to go down the road of provocation, and that is why the war started.

[Noesis]

Wait wait wait now just one minute here... first all of you argue how good Caledor's actions were, that is was the Dwarfs who were wrong all along... now that we prove you wrong in many points, you start retreating and acting like you didn't think otherwise all along. Only now you say that even Elf players call Caledor an idiot, but before you were proved wrong, you were acting like he was brave, as if his actions were for the greater good, as if he 'sacrificed' himself (not heard of many Elves doing that) to stop the war... I find that a bit wierd.

And no, the war did not start because the Dwarfs blamed the High Elves. If the High Elves would have paid back the gold, and if Caledor wouldn't have started showing off extreme arrogance by shaving a Dwarf ambassador and provoking the Dwarf King, it would have went better. But it was the Elves who had to go down the road of provocation, and that is why the war started.

In response I will post the words of a most astute and educated poster. I highly recommend reading this:

Finally, reasoning from background: we know that High Elves can be arrogant and Caledor II was considered to be over-the-top even by other High Elves, we know that the first round of exchanges between Dwarfs and High Elves didn't go well (the Dwarfs demanding reparations off the bat, the High Elves refusing and demanding the High King plead for an apology in person), we know that the Dwarfs are very aggressive when it comes to matters of honor, and we know that the Dwarf's beard got shaved.

I think the most likely explanation is this: the second emissary got to the High King's court, Caledor said something rude or denigrating (my guess is something about going home and not bothering him), the Dwarf drew his axe and swore an oath on his beard that he would not leave (a proper action for a Dwarf on a kingly mission of honor, but thoroughly illegal), the High Elves disarmed him and shaved his beard to teach him a lesson about threatening their kind, thinking themselves to be merciful and enlightened in a very paternalistic and culturally-chauvinistic way, the Dwarf got home, and the Dawi decided that this was proof that the Elves really had been behind the attacks from the beginning and decided to go to war.

Note that this brings up a lot of themes that GW likes to play around with: the danger of unintended consequences, the problems of cultural misunderstanding, the nature of the Dwarfs and Elves as studies in personality extremes (the Dwarfs as representing extreme stubbornness, the Elves as representing extreme arrogance), and of course the faulty nature of historical memory. Probably more likely than a simplistic story about Good Dwarfs vs. Bad Elves.

Finally I will add my own two cents.

Firstly, Elves consistently risk and give of themselves to protect others from Chaos. They have helped the Empire on numerous occasions over the years from the incursions of Chaos. Unlike Dwarves who typically remain in their mountain holds touching themselves over their piles of gold.

Secondly, the war did start because Dwarves blamed the High Elves for an attack they didn't commit. That is the entire reason why they sent an ambassador in the first place. Thus the Dwarves were the first to cast blame.

And finally, If the Dwarven "ambassador" had simply tried another tact or went home to report the news to his superiors of Caledor's actions (like any reasonable ambassador), everything would have been fine. Yet instead he threatens the life of one of the most powerful rulers in the world at the time. In my opinion, this was the single most important event of which there was no return. And a dwarf was responsible. Especially considering the station and tasks of the ambassador and the Pheonix King, no one can deny that the ambassador (dwarves) were largely responsible for starting the war with the insanely stupid and brash action committed by their ambassador. Not only did they press the issue of some measly caravan hijacking, but their utter and complete lack of diplomacy directly provoked the Pheonix King into shaving the ambassadors beard. There is no question, when one analyzes the events objectively and in their entirety, that the dawi are more responsible for the war of the beard than the High Elves.

[Nathar]

And no, the war did not start because the Dwarfs blamed the High Elves. If the High Elves would have paid back the gold, and if Caledor wouldn't have started showing off extreme arrogance by shaving a Dwarf ambassador and provoking the Dwarf King, it would have went better. But it was the Elves who had to go down the road of provocation, and that is why the war started.

Excuse me, can you read that one more time for me and tell me how you cannot see the wrong thing in what you just said! Do you seriously tell me you want an already weakened nation to pay gold that they never stole? I'm not saying they didn't act wrongly themselves or that they didn't overreact but just up and out pay the gold. No way.

Both sides should have approached the other with something other then demands and pride. The only faction that showed a miniscule amount of diplomacy and understanding for others was, ironically, the dark elves. They launched said attacks to spur a war between two pridefull and (extremely) powerful nation. They succeeded and it's not unlikely that this was the greatest blow ever evil ever struck good (apart maybe from the SoC and such HUGE invasions).

Oh and finally, I don't think anyone ever denied that Caledor was an idiot. I might be wrong, haven't bothered to follow these discussions but I'm fairly certain that there are even army books referring to Caledor II as a fairly stupid (and prideful) lad.

[Noesis]

Both sides should have approached the other with something other then demands and pride. The only faction that showed a miniscule amount of diplomacy and understanding for others was, ironically, the dark elves. They launched said attacks to spur a war between two pridefull and (extremely) powerful nation. They succeeded and it's not unlikely that this was the greatest blow ever evil ever struck good (apart maybe from the SoC and such HUGE invasions).


What you described is not diplomacy, but war. Diplomacy is commonly defined as the open negotiations between two sovereign entities. What you described is just a function of war.

EDIT: Then again, I could see the argument that war is also a function of diplomacy. :shock:

I still think the most accurate distillation of what you described is still an act of war. Diplomacy is just far to general of a term.

[Vaeronthar]

Oh, don't nitpick, Noesis.

And everyone stop acting like either the High Elves or the Dwarfs were in the right. They both fooked up. Then people died.

[Rizal]

Then came the Empire...and now who's on top? :p

[Lord_crapalot]

Then came the Empire...and now who's on top? :p

Eh excuse me, who sent a request for help? And who, ones again, has to step in and defend the free world from chaos (not that we dont like it)?

[Garwin Graves]

Then came the Empire...and now who's on top? :p

Lizardmen... *Winks*

[Hatemonger]

BUT, the true question is...how do they Halflings fit into all of this?

[nWe]

Greenskins: To much comic

Chaos: Don't really like the areas

Dark Elvf: They are against High Elf :(

Dwarfs: To short

Empire: Was a human in WoW so; no thank you. . .

High Elf: They're the best at everything, they are smart, they can master all winds of magic, they can be friendly and hatefull, and the most important of all . . .. I played them in the TT.

[Skurk]

Then came the Empire...and now who's on top? :p

Greenskins.

[Mirac]

What a pointless thread...

[Noesis]

What a pointless thread...

What a pointless post.

[Captbigbeard]

Then came the Empire...and now who's on top? :p

And which race is buddy buddy with the Empire... THE DWARFS! If the elf and dwarf race were dangling off a cliff, and holding on by one hand each, you can bet your beard the empire would reach for the dwarf hand first!

Yes the empire is allies with the elfs and they do fight side by side (not nearly as much as man/dwarf! Perhaps this is do to geography, but somehow I doubt the elfs would be as ready to sacrifce themselfs for mankind as are the dwarfs), but c'mon... you can't really befriend the arrogant . I don't see the elfs out their taking bullets for mankind like the dwarfs!

It has been predicted only one power is strong enough to oppose chaos. If by chance, the empire can defy all odds and one day end up saving the world, as they have a habit of doing, which race is gonna be right their with 'um reaping the rewards!

In response I will post the words of a most astute and educated poster. I highly recommend reading this:





I agree with you 100% Qtheory is a VERY astute poster. He has proven you wrong time after time, and yet you still are mature enough to recognize it! I clap for you my friend!

[Thoden Firehammer]

In response I will post the words of a most astute and educated poster. I highly recommend reading this:



Finally I will add my own two cents.

Firstly, Elves consistently risk and give of themselves to protect others from Chaos. They have helped the Empire on numerous occasions over the years from the incursions of Chaos. Unlike Dwarves who typically remain in their mountain holds touching themselves over their piles of gold.

Secondly, the war did start because Dwarves blamed the High Elves for an attack they didn't commit. That is the entire reason why they sent an ambassador in the first place. Thus the Dwarves were the first to cast blame.



Noesis, your posts always make me laugh, well here we go...


Firstly, Elves consistently risk and give of themselves to protect others from Chaos. They have helped the Empire on numerous occasions over the years from the incursions of Chaos. Unlike Dwarves who typically remain in their mountain holds touching themselves over their piles of gold.

This right here and a load of crap and you know it.
The humans and the Dwarfs have the closest thing to an alliance on the lore than any other race, the Dwarfs have also halped the empire alot more than the elves and the Dwarfs have also tought the Humans the ways of smithing mining, engineering and making things in general, many of the major Emprie craft names come from Dwarf words.

Now time to show proof, ((The craft thing you can look up on your own if you want to dispute it but I doubt you will))
The Dwarfs have a made an oath to the Humans of the Empire, to always come to their aid when it is needed, however there are times that the Dwarfs are unable to, such as in WAR, when Karaz A Karak is on the verge of ebing sieged... but this isn't Cannon so we wont start with the "What Ifs"


Secondly, the war did start because Dwarves blamed the High Elves for an attack they didn't commit. That is the entire reason why they sent an ambassador in the first place. Thus the Dwarves were the first to cast blame.

First off, the Dwarfs never knew the The "Elves" had a civil war, also the idea of fighting ones own kind is never a thought to a Dwarf, Dwarfs have no such world for civil war in their language becuase they do not understand how one can fight their own people...

I'll make a reference, it's like the American Indians back before the 1800s, they didn't believe in owning land, and when the White man came they started fencing it off and buying it from the indians, the indians didn't understand how anyone could own the land, for to them owning the land was like saying "This air is mine, pay me for it".

When the Dwarfs were attacked by the "Elves" ((note Elves)) they never gave it a thought that there might have been a civil war and that the elves who were attacking them were really Dark Elves, they just wnr't informed and even if they were i'd be hard for them to understand the concept of a civil war....

[Atheis Kurayami]

Here's a question: doesn't the fact that more recent versions mention the axe-drawing suggest that that detail is more canon than older editions?

The 6th edition army book is written from a first person narative story, the 5th edition book is written from a historical outside view approach.



Wait wait wait now just one minute here... first all of you argue how good Caledor's actions were, that is was the Dwarfs who were wrong all along... now that we prove you wrong in many points, you start retreating and acting like you didn't think otherwise all along. Only now you say that even Elf players call Caledor an idiot, but before you were proved wrong, you were acting like he was brave, as if his actions were for the greater good, as if he 'sacrificed' himself (not heard of many Elves doing that) to stop the war... I find that a bit wierd.

And no, the war did not start because the Dwarfs blamed the High Elves. If the High Elves would have paid back the gold, and if Caledor wouldn't have started showing off extreme arrogance by shaving a Dwarf ambassador and provoking the Dwarf King, it would have went better. But it was the Elves who had to go down the road of provocation, and that is why the war started.

Did you even wrote what I typed? I said outright I was giving a summary of the war of the beard from the 5th edition high elf army book. Since most of the posters have probably never seen the book, and it is the most recent source of high elven history. The 6th edition book doesn't have any information on anything important, they don't talk about the regions, elf culture, the phoenix kings, elf religion, and they don't even have an elf time line.

The war of the beard, was not started by the beard being shaved off. The war was started when the dwarves laid siege to Tor Alessi. Before that not a single high elf harmed a dwarf. So the dwarves drew first blood. Now the immediate response is "well the reason the dwarves attacked was because of the beard clipping" and the response to that is, the only reason the dwarf got shaved. Was the dwarves wrongly accused the high elves of actions they didn't do.

[Captbigbeard]

The war of the beard, was not started by the beard being shaved off. The war was started when the dwarves laid siege to Tor Alessi. Before that not a single high elf harmed a dwarf. So the dwarves drew first blood. Now the immediate response is "well the reason the dwarves attacked was because of the beard clipping" and the response to that is, the only reason the dwarf got shaved. Was the dwarves wrongly accused the high elves of actions they didn't do.

Ok, I guess any dwarf vs elf fight will boil down to the war of the beard.

Well I have a good question about the war. Did the elves ever tell the dwarfs about the dark elves? I mean you can say that HIGH elves didn't cut down the dwarfs, but bottom line ELVES killed dwarfs. The dwarfs didn't know about the dark elves before hand, so their reaction was understandible.

Yet, I have never heard anyone say that the elf king sat down with the diplomat, and discussed the whole high elf/dark elf situation. This would be the wise kingly thing to do... hell if the KING didn't do it (suposidly he sucked) than some other elf should have taken on the task. None of the reading gets this indepth.

I would be surprised if the elfs DIDN'T tell the dwarfs, but I wouldn't put it beyond the arrogant tools. If they did explain the whole dark elf thing, I think it would change my totally biased view on the war.

No matter what, I think the elf king should have taken responsibility and paid the price demanded, his race if not his subjects did shed dwarf blood. Nor should he have shaved the dwarf, there were many other ways to deal with the situation.

If the king never told the dwarfs about the dark elfs, he and his dumb empire deserved the good dwarf bashing they got.

As far as elf armor and weapons go, I really doubt they could compare to a dwarfs. Their blades are pretty and good for swinging fast and cutting deep, but I have a feeling they wouldn't last nearly as long or offer as much as dwarf crafted items.

[Vikingkingq]

This right here and a load of crap and you know it.
The humans and the Dwarfs have the closest thing to an alliance on the lore than any other race, the Dwarfs have also halped the empire alot more than the elves and the Dwarfs have also tought the Humans the ways of smithing mining, engineering and making things in general, many of the major Emprie craft names come from Dwarf words.

Now time to show proof, ((The craft thing you can look up on your own if you want to dispute it but I doubt you will))
The Dwarfs have a made an oath to the Humans of the Empire, to always come to their aid when it is needed, however there are times that the Dwarfs are unable to, such as in WAR, when Karaz A Karak is on the verge of ebing sieged... but this isn't Cannon so we wont start with the "What Ifs"

- Creating the Vortex during the Great Chaos Incursion.
- Sending Teclis and the Swordmasters during the Great War Against Chaos.
- Founding the eight Colleges of Magic.
- 372 years of trade and co-habitation in Marienburg.

In the regular timeline:
- joining the Conclave of Light.
- sending in the High Elf fleet into the Sea of Claws.

In the Age of Reckoning timeline:
- joining the Council of Wisdom.
- sending the High Elf army and the Phoenix King to the Empire.

[Noesis]

This right here and a load of crap and you know it.
The humans and the Dwarfs have the closest thing to an alliance on the lore than any other race, the Dwarfs have also halped the empire alot more than the elves and the Dwarfs have also tought the Humans the ways of smithing mining, engineering and making things in general, many of the major Emprie craft names come from Dwarf words.

This was a mistake on my part. I was thinking more along the lines of Tolkien Dwarves and not Warhammer Dwarves. I suppose Dwarves do ally themselves with humans. Yet the same can be said for the High Elves and Humans.

First off, the Dwarfs never knew the The "Elves" had a civil war, also the idea of fighting ones own kind is never a thought to a Dwarf, Dwarfs have no such world for civil war in their language becuase they do not understand how one can fight their own people...

No, making an excuse that because the dwarves were ignorant of a foreign culture's customs or tendencies is no excuse at all. Instead of rushing headlong into accusations, the Dwarves should have analyzed the situation, reconciled in a peaceful and diplomatic manner with the High Elves, and come to some understanding with a foreign culture.

Instead, they immediately attacked the High Elves honor by wrongly accusing them of acts they didn't commit, and sent a diplomat who stupidly drew a weapon in the presence of a people's most sacred and revered leader simply because the elven king refused to appease acts his people did not commit. Not to mention that I think a monkey could understand the consequences of such an act. Then on top of all that, instead of letting the matter rest, the dwarves have the mentality to slaughter thousands of innocent elven civilians simply because one incompetent diplomat got his beard shaved after threatening the honor and safety of the High Elven king!

And yet many of you claim the High Elves were to blame for the war. Give me a freaking break. The High Elves acted exactly as anyone in their situation would have acted. The dwarves on the other hand were completely out of line. They refused to study a foreign culture, refused to actually investigate the circumstances surrounding the ambush of their caravan, and were directly responsible for a diplomatic debacle. And after all that, they decided to make the plunge into war by butchering thousands of innocents.

No, I am quite certain it is the Dwarves who are to blame for the war of the beard. The Elves only crime being a king who may or may not have acted arrogant to a fool of a diplomat unjustly accusing the Elves of a crime they didn't commit. Give me a break.

[Vaeronthar]

No matter what, I think the elf king should have taken responsibility and paid the price demanded, his race if not his subjects did shed dwarf blood. Nor should he have shaved the dwarf, there were many other ways to deal with the situation.
Right, because when your country is under attack from Germany, you go and invade France.

[Thoden Firehammer]

- Creating the Vortex during the Great Chaos Incursion.
- Sending Teclis and the Swordmasters during the Great War Against Chaos.
- Founding the eight Colleges of Magic.
- 372 years of trade and co-habitation in Marienburg.


.... You could only name 4?
1. Driving Chaos out of the Old World, year -4500 to -4420.

2. Teaching the humans the crafts, turning their society from a bunch of noes picking monkeys into a real society :P mind you Dwarfs have been trading with humans even before -250

3. Battle of Black Fire pass year -1.

4. Soon after that battle many Dwarfs traveld to the empire and helped build MANY of their cities.

5. Battle of Hunger wood year 2010, mind you this was only one battle in a massive war that the Dwarfs aided the Empire in their fight agisnt the Vampire Counts.

6. The Great War Agaisnt Chaos year 2302

7. Barak Varr, becomes a major trading point for the humans and the Dwarfs -500

8. Giving Sigmar Ghal-maraz.

[Captbigbeard]

And yet many of you dwarves claim the High Elves were to blame for the war. Give me a freaking break. The High Elves acted exactly as anyone in their situation would have acted. The dwarves on the other hand were completely out of line. They refused to study a foreign culture, refused to actually investigate the circumstances surrounding the ambush of their caravan, and were directly responsible for a diplomatic debacle. And after all that, they decided to make the plunge into war by butchering thousands of innocents.




Ok, please answer my question, sounds like you know ALOT about the elves side, did they ever tell the dwarfs about dark elfs? Cause I never heard they if they even dignified explaining themselves to the dwarfs. Now I'm not saying they didn't, I'm just saying I would like to know if they ever did. Cause you really can't blame the dwarfs if they didn't!

As far as understanding foreign culture... the dwarfs knew nothing of dark elves. Nor do their care about playing the whole game of politics, which is why the dwarf diplomat took out his axe in the first place. Thie elf king was supposidly not a nice or smart guy. With elf tendency to be a little cocky, you can just imagine this elf waveing the dwarf diplomat off like a little angry child... sending the diplomat into a rage. his people were the ones killed after all!

you say dwarfs don't know elf culutre... true... but it was the elf king who gave the dwarfs a big mushroom stamp. The whole war started because the elf king was complteley ignorant of dwarf culture. Where the dwarfs COULD have looked a bit more into elf culture, the elfs just IGNORED dwarf culture.


The Elves only crime being a king who may or may not have acted arrogant to a fool of a diplomat unjustly accusing the Elves of a crime they didn't commit. Give me a break.

I'm pretty sure ELVES killed dwarfs, and thats how this whole thing started.

Right, because when your country is under attack from Germany, you go and invade France.

If my country didn't know Germany existed, and all german soliders dressed up and spoke like little french guys as they slaughtered my people... yes I would attack france, well not attack but go to their leader and be all like WTF!

[Thoden Firehammer]

No, making an excuse that because the dwarves were ignorant of a foreign culture's customs or tendencies is no excuse at all.


I am not making an excuse, it is a valid answer, there is no instant communication in the Old world, and the Elves didn't even try to think that the Dark Elves might have making a plan...

In real life we see tons of cultural clashes, I once again refer to the American Indians, however there are tons more....

The Elves and Dwarfs were only trading partners, thus that's as far as their relationship came untill the War between the two, so thus cultural ignorance was a given, hell and your same statement can be turned agaisnt you, the Elves cult off the Dwarf ambasidor's beard, if they knew that a Dwarf's beard was that important to them, and would have started a war than they wouldn't have cut it off.

[Vikingkingq]

.... You could only name 4?
1. Driving Chaos out of the Old World, year -4500 to -4420.

2. Teaching the humans the crafts, turning their society from a bunch of noes picking monkeys into a real society :P mind you Dwarfs have been trading with humans even before -250

3. Battle of Black Fire pass year -1.

4. Soon after that battle many Dwarfs traveld to the empire and helped build MANY of their cities.

5. Battle of Hunger wood year 2010, mind you this was only one battle in a massive war that the Dwarfs aided the Empire in their fight agisnt the Vampire Counts.

6. The Great War Agaisnt Chaos year 2302

7. Barak Varr, becomes a major trading point for the humans and the Dwarfs -500

8. Giving Sigmar Ghal-maraz.

Barak Varr hardly counts as something the Dwarfs did on behalf of humans. Elves also participated in the driving of Chaos from the Old World, and the Great War against Chaos.

So there isn't much of a difference either way.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Barak Varr hardly counts as something the Dwarfs did on behalf of humans. Elves also participated in the driving of Chaos from the Old World, and the Great War against Chaos.

So there isn't much of a difference either way.


No But Barak Varr did help the Humans greatly, and the Dwarfs still aided the Humans in Driving out Chaos, so I can still atleast 7, even though Barak Varr rightfully counts as 8.

But i'll be humble and settle with 7, mind you that's still 3 more than yours, and I didn't even look that hard.

[Garwin Graves]

No But Barak Varr did help the Humans greatly, and the Dwarfs still aided the Humans in Driving out Chaos, so I can still atleast 7, even though Barak Varr rightfully counts as 8.

But i'll be humble and settle with 7, mind you that's still 3 more than yours, and I didn't even look that hard.

Aaah you needed help...

The Druchii have been holding legions of Chaos at bay that wonder from the Chaos Wastelands into Naggaroth for centuries... Pansies.

(Alright continue with the elf/dwarf hate.)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Aaah you needed help...

The Druchii have been holding legions of Chaos at bay that wonder from the Chaos Wastelands into Naggaroth for centuries... Pansies.

(Alright continue with the elf/dwarf hate.)

Dwarfs never needed help, damned elves were never invited, they always seem to show up when they're least needed, and wanted :P

[Garwin Graves]

Awww *lowers head and goes back to his own continent*

[kizen]

*starts construction on a set of American Football goal posts*


*finishes construction*


*hires Chaos Chosen*

*decieves dwarf*

*watches Chaos Chosen kick a field goal with the dwarf*



That was supposed to be comic relief from all the silly feuding people are doing over who is right, wrong, and to blame. Normally I would have used a gnome or halfling, but dwarfs would be a bit harder to kick.

[Thoden Firehammer]

*starts construction on a set of American Football goal posts*


*finishes construction*


*hires Chaos Chosen*

*decieves dwarf*

*watches Chaos Chosen kick a field goal with the dwarf*



That was supposed to be comic relief from all the silly feuding people are doing over who is right, wrong, and to blame. Normally I would have used a gnome or halfling, but dwarfs would be a bit harder to kick.

That'd be a great comic releif if a Chosen could actualy kick a Dwarf....

[Captbigbeard]

Dwarfs never needed help, damned elves were never invited, they always seem to show up when they're least needed, and wanted :P

Thats because they know they would get their asses kicked anywhere else.

Danty Elf says, "Ohhh, looks like chaos is under control, I'll just stand here and look pretty, and then take all the credit, because people love pretty things!

Sigh but I sure wish the dwarfs didn't rule so much, then me and my kind (thats right elves don't care about grammer either!) wouldn't look like such wussy tree huggers! Thank good for anime loving pre-teens without them nobody would like us... except the emo's."

[Krulltak]

Thats because they know they would get their asses kicked anywhere else.

Danty Elf says, "Ohhh, looks like chaos is under control, I'll just stand here and look pretty, and then take all the credit, because people love pretty things!

Sigh but I sure wish the dwarfs didn't rule so much, then me and my kind (thats right elves don't care about grammer either!) wouldn't look like such wussy tree huggers! Thank good for anime loving pre-teens without them nobody would like us... except the emo's."

The ignorance you have shown and continue to show just makes so sick.

[Boulvae]

Dwarfen literature is probably scanned over and edited to perfection a thousand fold, that blatant statement alone makes you a shameful dwarf.

And elves may be pretty, but these elves ain't no pansies. Stupidly prowd maybe but pansies? Only in a dwarfen joke, or an Orcy insult but that goes withot saying towards everything.

[Captbigbeard]

The ignorance you have shown and continue to show just makes so sick.

Ignorance is bliss, and I live an awesome life.

No but seriously, I hate to admit it, but for what it's worth (probebly very little), I now think high elfs are pretty cool. Ok, not cool, but not lame either. Wood elfs and dark elfs, mah, not so much. But double axe wielding high elfs... ok they have my respect. WoW night elves on the other hand... they just bring ALL you elf lovers down.

You know what would be awesome though? If they got some auther (worthy of the task), to right a series of books about the war of the beard! I'm surprised nothing has been done already, imagine that awesome read!

[Atheis Kurayami]

Its sort of sad that the vortex is getting downplayed to a degree that is on the same level on giving Sigmar a shiney hammer. It is one of the three most important things that has taken place in the history of warhammer. In that one single act the high elves did more for the world than the dwarves have ever done in the entire course of their history. And to fully understand how important it is you have to understand the other two defining moments in the history of warhammer.

1) The coming of the old ones. They are the ones who created the world as we know it, with the help of their servants the lizardmen. They created the races we know, elves, dwarves, halfling, men, and ogres. And made the world in a way their creations could thrive. Like for example having the lizardmen armies exterminate competing species. As well as teaching magic to the elves and runic arts to the dwarves.


2) The collapse of the warp gates. Chaos was free to enter the world completely unchecked, and started to systematically destroy the children of the old ones. The unchecked magical energy mutated the races and the beastmen gained a foothold, humans gave themselves over to worship of the dark powers and the chaos warriors were born. Daemons could wander the world unrestricted, and their first target was obvious. The races that were hit the hardest during the first war where the lizardmen, most of their temple cities are little more than ruins as a result and all of the slann of the first spawning were killed. The rest of the races were being pushed back in a war they had no chance of winning, for every chaos troop that was killed two more would take their place. Demons who were struck down would return from the warp gate moments later. The world was doomed.

3) The vortex. Caledor the dragon tamer finally settled on one last desperate gamble. He gathered the most powerful high mages he could and devised a spell to rid the world of the excess magical energy that was leaking into the world. Chaos is not stupid and when they started to perform the ritual, chaos sent every they had at the elves. And the most desperate battle of the first war took place, with Aenarion the defender leading the defense of the mages against the full might of chaos. And the price was high the elves lost their greatest leaders and most powerful mages in a single battle. In the end it worked, the elves who cast the spell were forever trapped within the vortex and to this day continue to fight the same unending battle.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Its sort of sad that the vortex is getting downplayed to a degree that is on the same level on giving Sigmar a shiney hammer. It is one of the three most important things that has taken place in the history of warhammer. In that one single act the high elves did more for the world than the dwarves have ever done in the entire course of their history. And to fully understand how important it is you have to understand the other two defining moments in the history of warhammer.

1) The coming of the old ones. They are the ones who created the world as we know it, with the help of their servants the lizardmen. They created the races we know, elves, dwarves, halfling, men, and ogres. And made the world in a way their creations could thrive. Like for example having the lizardmen armies exterminate competing species. As well as teaching magic to the elves and runic arts to the dwarves.


2) The collapse of the warp gates. Chaos was free to enter the world completely unchecked, and started to systematically destroy the children of the old ones. The unchecked magical energy mutated the races and the beastmen gained a foothold, humans gave themselves over to worship of the dark powers and the chaos warriors were born. Daemons could wander the world unrestricted, and their first target was obvious. The races that were hit the hardest during the first war where the lizardmen, most of their temple cities are little more than ruins as a result and all of the slann of the first spawning were killed. The rest of the races were being pushed back in a war they had no chance of winning, for every chaos troop that was killed two more would take their place. Demons who were struck down would return from the warp gate moments later. The world was doomed.

3) The vortex. Caledor the dragon tamer finally settled on one last desperate gamble. He gathered the most powerful high mages he could and devised a spell to rid the world of the excess magical energy that was leaking into the world. Chaos is not stupid and when they started to perform the ritual, chaos sent every they had at the elves. And the most desperate battle of the first war took place, with Aenarion the defender leading the defense of the mages against the full might of chaos. And the price was high the elves lost their greatest leaders and most powerful mages in a single battle. In the end it worked, the elves who cast the spell were forever trapped within the vortex and to this day continue to fight the same unending battle.


Ha! if you wish to lable that as an important thing, than Put Grimnir on that list as well for closing the chaos Gate

And mind you in the Lizardmen Army book it says the Slann were the one to cast that spell

You see where i'm going with this right?

[Atheis Kurayami]

Grimnir died trying to close the gate, he didn't actually pull it off. If he had then the northern chaos waste wouldn't exist they way the do now. And the slann helped the elves by adding their power to the spell. They didn't come up with, nor were they the ones to cast it. If they had cast the spell the vortex wouldn't be on Ulthuan it would be in the jungles of Lustria.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Grimnir died trying to close the gate, he didn't actually pull it off. If he had then the northern chaos waste wouldn't exist they way the do now. And the slann helped the elves by adding their power to the spell. They didn't come up with, nor were they the ones to cast it. If they had cast the spell the vortex wouldn't be on Ulthuan it would be in the jungles of Lustria.

... Hey don't shoot the messenger, i'm only going by the text.

And besides saying "The slann only added their power to the spell" really shows arrogance, and shows your biasedness, which in turn makes your point only albe to be taken with a grain of salt, same with mine but then again i fully admit this

[Atheis Kurayami]

Its not arrogance its the truth, and I quote the lizardmen army book 6th edition. Page 7 "And so it is that the slann took on themselves the role of protectors of this world and that was carved by the will of the Old Ones. As their number dwindled, the Slann retreated further into the depths of their jungle homelands, struggling to hold their own temple-cities from the onslaught of Chaos. Attempting to maintain control over their own domain, the Slann were forced to leave the rest of the world to its own devics while they struggled for survival, and ultimate doom seemed certain.

This doom was averted by the selfless actions of the elves of Ulthuan. Under siege from the daemons overrunning their island, the elves created a powerful vortex of energy that sucked away most of the magical winds in a devastating maelstrom. The daemons required this energy to maintain their physical presence, and so were banished. The elves had learned their magical art from the old ones and slann over many generations, and they were remarkably adept at manipulating the magic winds that now blew. Indeed, they could control the magic in ways that the slann could or would not. The hugely powerful spell that the elves cast was extremely costly, unselfishly dooming their most powerful mages to an eternity of torment from the benefit of the entire world."

Its not like I'm saying the elves are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and everything that the other races have done in warhammer equates to nothing. I was simply replying to people downgrading the creation of the vortex to the same level as giving sigmar the hammer or the battle of black fire pass.

[Atheis Kurayami]

Ignorance is bliss, and I live an awesome life.

No but seriously, I hate to admit it, but for what it's worth (probebly very little), I now think high elfs are pretty cool. Ok, not cool, but not lame either. Wood elfs and dark elfs, mah, not so much. But double axe wielding high elfs... ok they have my respect. WoW night elves on the other hand... they just bring ALL you elf lovers down.

You know what would be awesome though? If they got some auther (worthy of the task), to right a series of books about the war of the beard! I'm surprised nothing has been done already, imagine that awesome read!

They are sort of planning on writing a book on the war of the beard. They have a new series of books coming out for warhammer fantasy called the time of legends. Where they go back to key figures in warhammer history and do a book on them like the horus heresy for 40k. The first book of the series on Sigmar, with Nagash, and Aenarion getting one. Past those three I have no idea about the rest of the books in the series. And really wow races bring everybody down, not just the elves. Warhammer races have way more flavor to them, I mean who doesn't like a the idea of a dwarf grudge? :P

[Vikingkingq]

No But Barak Varr did help the Humans greatly, and the Dwarfs still aided the Humans in Driving out Chaos, so I can still atleast 7, even though Barak Varr rightfully counts as 8.

But i'll be humble and settle with 7, mind you that's still 3 more than yours, and I didn't even look that hard.

Again, listing stuff that Dwarfs did that Elves didn't, there's not that much of a difference.

[Vikingkingq]

They are sort of planning on writing a book on the war of the beard. They have a new series of books coming out for warhammer fantasy called the time of legends. Where they go back to key figures in warhammer history and do a book on them like the horus heresy for 40k. The first book of the series on Sigmar, with Nagash, and Aenarion getting one. Past those three I have no idea about the rest of the books in the series. And really wow races bring everybody down, not just the elves. Warhammer races have way more flavor to them, I mean who doesn't like a the idea of a dwarf grudge? :P

Link? Cause this would be cool.

[Atheis Kurayami]

http://www.blacklibrary.com/default.asp

go to the coming soon list for warhammer fanstasy, and look for the title of time of legends. Heldenhammer which is the name of the sigmar book is going out Apr 08/ May 08. With nagash following in sept/oct.

[Vikingkingq]

http://www.blacklibrary.com/default.asp

go to the coming soon list for warhammer fanstasy, and look for the title of time of legends. Heldenhammer which is the name of the sigmar book is going out Apr 08/ May 08. With nagash following in sept/oct.

Thank you, I'll order these sharpish.

[Noesis]

Ok, please answer my question, sounds like you know ALOT about the elves side, did they ever tell the dwarfs about dark elfs? Cause I never heard they if they even dignified explaining themselves to the dwarfs. Now I'm not saying they didn't, I'm just saying I would like to know if they ever did. Cause you really can't blame the dwarfs if they didn't!

They may not have had the chance to tell the Dwarf about Dark Elves. For all we know the Elves never had the opportunity. All we can go off of are the mutually accepted facts. That at some point the Elven King was threatened by the Dwarven diplomat and that the Elven king may or may not have been acting arrogant. Considering that the act of arrogance is somewhat relative yet the act of drawing ones weapon is not.

As far as understanding foreign culture... the dwarfs knew nothing of dark elves. Nor do their care about playing the whole game of politics, which is why the dwarf diplomat took out his axe in the first place. Thie elf king was supposidly not a nice or smart guy. With elf tendency to be a little cocky, you can just imagine this elf waveing the dwarf diplomat off like a little angry child... sending the diplomat into a rage. his people were the ones killed after all!

So your admitting that because of Dwarven flaws and ignorance, they should be exonerated from any blame? Just because Dwarves know nothing about politics does not change the fact that their diplomat behaved wrongly in the court of a foreign king. We do not really know if the Elven King was acting arrogant or not. It could have just been that the Dwarf perceived arrogance. Perhaps the Dwarf was not getting the answers he wanted to hear. The only concrete facts are the Dwarven vow of not leaving with beard intact, the drawing of a weapon by the diplomat, and the shaving of his beard by Elves in response.

you say dwarfs don't know elf culutre... true... but it was the elf king who gave the dwarfs a big mushroom stamp. The whole war started because the elf king was complteley ignorant of dwarf culture. Where the dwarfs COULD have looked a bit more into elf culture, the elfs just IGNORED dwarf culture.

How was the elven king ignorant of Dwarven culture? After the dwarf committed an unforgivable act in the halls of the Pheonix King, he said he would not leave with his beard intact. So the Elves simply obliged him instead of killing him or throwing him in jail like most other civilizations. Knowing everything about Dwarven culture or not, the Pheonix King had every right to shave the dwarf's beard. In fact, knowing more about Dwarven culture he might have shaved it sooner. Considering that Dwarves keep their word, shaving his beard might have been the only way to get him to leave.

This is why it is important to note that it was the Dwarves who were the first to provoke a response which caused a series of events that led to war. Prior to the drawing of a weapon against the Pheonix King there was still hope for a peaceful resolution. Thus, it was the Dwarves who triggered the onset of the War of The Beard.


I'm pretty sure ELVES killed dwarfs, and thats how this whole thing started.

DARK elves killed dwarves. That has been one of the main points of many arguments.


If my country didn't know Germany existed, and all german soliders dressed up and spoke like little french guys as they slaughtered my people... yes I would attack france, well not attack but go to their leader and be all like WTF!

And then pull a pistol on the King of France who also happens to be the living representation of god, point it at his face and demand satisfaction? The Dwarves seemed to think this was the right way to behave.


Thoden said:

First off, the Dwarfs never knew the The "Elves" had a civil war, also the idea of fighting ones own kind is never a thought to a Dwarf, Dwarfs have no such world for civil war in their language becuase they do not understand how one can fight their own people...

Then I said:


No, making an excuse that because the dwarves were ignorant of a foreign culture's customs or tendencies is no excuse at all. Instead of rushing headlong into accusations, the Dwarves should have analyzed the situation, reconciled in a peaceful and diplomatic manner with the High Elves, and come to some understanding with a foreign culture.

Then Thoden said:

I am not making an excuse, it is a valid answer, there is no instant communication in the Old world, and the Elves didn't even try to think that the Dark Elves might have making a plan...

Yes you are. Do not change your answer. You originally said that Dwarves have no cultural concept of civil war or dissension so it was ok for them to assume that no one else goes through civil war or dissension. This is an incorrect assumption by the Dwarves which makes them guilty of poor judgment. Judgment which greatly contributed to the outbreak of the War of The Beard.

And it does not matter if communication is slow in the warhammer world. We can assume that communication in the warhammer world during the time of the war of the beard is relatively similar to the communication enjoyed by ancient Rome. Yet even in those times, slow communication did not prevent one nation from understanding another. Proper diplomacy was still exercised and enjoyed by many nations throughout history without the luxury of modern telecommunications.

In real life we see tons of cultural clashes, I once again refer to the American Indians, however there are tons more....

I understand your point. However, in the case of the American Indian example, the United States did not care about the Native American's philosophy on land. They just ran them off their ancestral homes because they didn't care. They were in the wrong for doing that regardless of if it was apart of American culture to run people off their land. Just because something is apart of someones culture does not make the behavior right.

I can draw the same parallel to the Elves and Dwarves. It is never alright to threaten a king with your axe. It is not appropriate to threaten anyone with a weapon regardless of if Dwarven culture says it is alright (which I don't think it does anyway).

The Elves and Dwarfs were only trading partners, thus that's as far as their relationship came untill the War between the two, so thus cultural ignorance was a given, hell and your same statement can be turned agaisnt you, the Elves cult off the Dwarf ambasidor's beard, if they knew that a Dwarf's beard was that important to them, and would have started a war than they wouldn't have cut it off.

On the contrary, trade is one of the most powerful forces that promotes cultural understanding among two people. It forces them to interact and understand each other in order to provide goods and services to one another. In addition, especially lucrative trading partners often make it a point to visit each others rulers and legislative entities in order to better understand one another and facilitate relations.

As for the second half of the above quote, I once again state that the Dwarf made a vow that he would not leave the presence of the Phoenix King with his beard intact. If the Elves had known Dwarven culture they would know how stubborn Dwarves are, this might have been the only way to make the dwarf leave. In addition, regardless of if the Elves knew Dwarven culture or not, I once again state that it was totally improper for the Dwarven diplomat to threaten the king. Shaving his beard was a just and suitable substitute instead of just killing the dwarf.

[Captbigbeard]

They may not have had the chance to tell the Dwarf about Dark Elves. For all we know the Elves never had the opportunity. All we can go off of are the mutually accepted facts. That at some point the Elven King was threatened by the Dwarven diplomat and that the Elven king may or may not have been acting arrogant. Considering that the act of arrogance is somewhat relative yet the act of drawing ones weapon is not.


See this makes all the diffrence. If the elves, understanding the dwarf's anger over the issue, sat down with the diplomat to try to explain things, than perhaps it was the dwarf's fault. However, if the elf king treated the diplomat with arrogance and more or less waved him off, then it was the elves fault. With actuall evidence elves attacked dwarfs, and no one caring to explain the whole dark elf thing, the dwarfs did the right thing. Truly I could see it going either way, the dwarf diplomat could have been to stubborn to leave without what he came for, or the elf king (knowing his track record) may have brought this down upon both races by not simply explaining things. The fun part is we'll never know...

[Garwin Graves]

First off, the Dwarfs never knew the The "Elves" had a civil war, also the idea of fighting ones own kind is never a thought to a Dwarf, Dwarfs have no such world for civil war in their language becuase they do not understand how one can fight their own people...


Umm... Chaos Dwarves ring a bell?

[Captbigbeard]

Umm... Chaos Dwarves ring a bell?

Chaos dwarfs arn't really the same, first off I'm not sure If they have ever really had an all out war, or even a battle with the normal dwarfs. I don't have my warhammer timeline so I can't be sure. 2ndly, Chaos dwarfs are dwarfs that have been driven evil by lethal amounts of chaos energy (it's a testiment to dwarf toughness they even survived! Any human would have become a blob of goo... chaos dwarfs only have tusks and a nasty habit of turning to stone). Dwarfs vs. Choas dwarfs would hardly be considered a civil war, as the two have very little in common. I don't think their even the same race anymore.

Dark elves embrace darkness, chaos dwarfs have about as much choice as a human who has mutated and been driven mad despite his will.

[QuantumTheory]

Before I remember someone saying that the diplomat was undiplomatic and that the High Elf King did what was right. The High Elf King is the one who messed up. He was the one who was undiplomatic, he was just acting like a god and being all arrogant about it to other races. As if the Dwarf High King should come to pray for the gold to be returned. But guess, what, the Elves or their Godly King weren't smart enough to realise that it was the Dark Elves who may have done this. This proves one thing that you guys said wrong:

"Elves know what to do for the greater good and have the means to achieve it"

They certainly didn't 'know' what was the best action in that course, and they certainly chose the worst action available. The High Elf King and the High Elves were starting to think they were just tooo godly, just too good, and thats when the good old Dwarfs came in and tought them otherwise.

[Fusko]

Before I remember someone saying that the diplomat was undiplomatic and that the High Elf King did what was right. The High Elf King is the one who messed up. He was the one who was undiplomatic, he was just acting like a god and being all arrogant about it to other races. As if the Dwarf High King should come to pray for the gold to be returned. But guess, what, the Elves or their Godly King weren't smart enough to realise that it was the Dark Elves who may have done this. This proves one thing that you guys said wrong:

"Elves know what to do for the greater good and have the means to achieve it"

They certainly didn't 'know' what was the best action in that course, and they certainly chose the worst action available. The High Elf King and the High Elves were starting to think they were just tooo godly, just too good, and thats when the good old Dwarfs came in and tought them otherwise.
The King didn't help by cutting off the ambassador's beard either.

[Garwin Graves]

Chaos dwarfs arn't really the same, first off I'm not sure If they have ever really had an all out war, or even a battle with the normal dwarfs. I don't have my warhammer timeline so I can't be sure. 2ndly, Chaos dwarfs are dwarfs that have been driven evil by lethal amounts of chaos energy (it's a testiment to dwarf toughness they even survived! Any human would have become a blob of goo... chaos dwarfs only have tusks and a nasty habit of turning to stone). Dwarfs vs. Choas dwarfs would hardly be considered a civil war, as the two have very little in common. I don't think their even the same race anymore.

Dark elves embrace darkness, chaos dwarfs have about as much choice as a human who has mutated and been driven mad despite his will.

I was honestly only contesting a single line... "they do not understand how one can fight their own people..."

And it's -3500, even before the dark elf Sundering.

Dwarves are fool-hearty and prideful, Elves are pompous and self-righteous. Both f'ed up on the war of the beard. Oddly enough I'm reminded of the 300.

Dwarven Messenger: This is madness!

Pansy High Elf False-"Phoenix King": This is Loth-ern!

[Noesis]

See this makes all the diffrence. If the elves, understanding the dwarf's anger over the issue, sat down with the diplomat to try to explain things, than perhaps it was the dwarf's fault. However, if the elf king treated the diplomat with arrogance and more or less waved him off, then it was the elves fault. With actuall evidence elves attacked dwarfs, and no one caring to explain the whole dark elf thing, the dwarfs did the right thing. Truly I could see it going either way, the dwarf diplomat could have been to stubborn to leave without what he came for, or the elf king (knowing his track record) may have brought this down upon both races by not simply explaining things. The fun part is we'll never know...

...

What I keep trying to tell you is that the elf king may or may not have had the opportunity to tell the dwarf, or the manner in which the dwarf diplomat conducted himself solicited an arrogant response from the king. Or hell, we don't even really know if the Elf King acted ignorant at all. Like I said before, the Dwarf could just have perceived arrogance. Regardless, the Dwarf should never have pulled his weapon. That was an egregious error which caused the spiraling of events leading to the war of the beard.

Before I remember someone saying that the diplomat was undiplomatic and that the High Elf King did what was right. The High Elf King is the one who messed up. He was the one who was undiplomatic, he was just acting like a god and being all arrogant about it to other races. As if the Dwarf High King should come to pray for the gold to be returned.

Well its really nice to know that you were there and witnessed the entire conversation between Dwarf and Elven King. Even though I don't like repeating myself, here it goes. The facts include:

1) Caravan is ambushed by Dark Elves
2) Dwarf Diplomat comes to Caledor demanding satisfaction
3) Diplomat draws weapon on Caledor
4) Diplomat's beard is shaved

We cannot necessarily claim the level of arrogance of Caledor II. We can only postulate on what might have occurred between the diplomat and the king, but even then these postulations are only best guesses. Caledor II might very well have been polite and cordial to the dwarf and just wasn't giving him the answers the dwarf wanted to hear.

The main point is whether the diplomat was right for drawing his weapon in the face of the king. It is my opinion that this was a brash, stupid, childish, and downright unacceptable method of negotiation inappropriate of a diplomat regardless of the level of "arrogance" perceived from a KING.

If we agree that the action was wrong, we then analyze the consequences of said action. Essentially, combined with the vow the dwarf took, it forced the hand of the Phoenix King to do something drastic. Which in turn would directly result in a breakdown of diplomacy and an outbreak of hostilities.

Even so, the Dwarves had the opportunity to let the matter go, or try another peaceful means to resolve the situation. Yet instead, they committed to an outright invasion and were the first to initiate open hostilities. By all accounts, it was Dwarves who initiated every instigating action along the sequence of events that led to the war of the beard. They were the instigators. They caused the war.

[Barundin]

If you use the source that claims that a dwarf drew his axe you must accept that the Phoenix King demanded pleas. You can't just use the stuff you like and leave out the "elves are always as arrogant as is possible" part. Seriously, Dwarfs do not threaten people unless they are insulted. But if the ambassador did, the Dwarfs would probably have accepted them killing him. By shaving his beard they felt that the High elves insulted their very culture instead of punishing the ambassador, again showing that the HE were just as ignorant as the Dwarfs when coming to foreign traditions.

[Rukaz]

I'll be takin da choppa to da pointy-eared gits an' when I'm done with 'em, dey won't be pointy-eared no more on account a me havin' dere ears on me belt.

[Captbigbeard]

If you use the source that claims that a dwarf drew his axe you must accept that the Phoenix King demanded pleas. You can't just use the stuff you like and leave out the "elves are always as arrogant as is possible" part. Seriously, Dwarfs do not threaten people unless they are insulted. But if the ambassador did, the Dwarfs would probably have accepted them killing him. By shaving his beard they felt that the High elves insulted their very culture instead of punishing the ambassador, again showing that the HE were just as ignorant as the Dwarfs when coming to foreign traditions.

Ya the dwarf wouldn't have whipped out his axe for no reason, he was a diplomat after all. I'm sure the elf king pissed him off.

Screw a book... I want a War of the Beard movie, how awesome would that be. We could see dwarfs kick elf butt (and elves kick dwarf butt) on the big screen!

[Vaeronthar]

Y'know what? If you can't just try and devote yourself to trying to figure out what actually happened, and only try to make it seem more like the race you like was in the right, you really shouldn't say anything. At all.

[Captbigbeard]

Y'know what? If you can't just try and devote yourself to trying to figure out what actually happened, and only try to make it seem more like the race you like was in the right, you really shouldn't say anything. At all.

Thats the whole fun of it! It's a fantasy world so no one can ever really know what happened, the people who defend the elves are just as right as the ones who defend the dwarfs. It's fun to see the two fan bases argue! If you put and elf and a dwarf into a room, I think it would sound a lot like this thread.

[Lord_crapalot]

Thats the whole fun of it! It's a fantasy world so no one can ever really know what happened, the people who defend the elves are just as right as the ones who defend the dwarfs. It's fun to see the two fan bases argue! If you put and elf and a dwarf into a room, I think it would sound a lot like this thread.

I agree, and if those fans do it with alittle PR as well its very interesting to watch. :D

[Willstar]

I like elves for several reasons. One of which is the way they role play. They're highly intelligent, highly trained, and highly arrogant because, well, they just roll like that. Also, the fact that there's 'mean nerds/archmages' as well as 'dark meanies/shadow warriors' is something I like.

They're not all pegged down as 'the same'. They're as different in personalities as humans are, but still all possess many of the same traits and qualities, as well as flaws.

I like how they're knowledgeable. They know man. They know what's out there, and they will fight it no matter what, because it's the right thing to do, AND because it's out of self preservation instinct. Survival man. Survival is the key. They're attacked by greenskins, chaos, not to mention the mean dark elves. I'm not sure about skaven and/or other meanies, but I'm sure that they fought them many times.

And hell, I quite simply love em. Their attitudes, appearance, life. I remember an even bigger fan of elves than I once said, they're like a spartan community. Everyone fights for the good of their country, and they're all highly trained warriors.

[JediMindTrikZ]

Too long, didn't really read. I don't follow any stories or anything of warhammer, and I find it pretty nerdy when people start screamin waaaagh! da stunties n dey beardz! I just wanna play the game for the game, not the story line :D. I like any class as long as its bangin. Black orcs, Engineers, and Shadow Warriors. They all sound like bangin classes. Just because in a book somewhere in the back of a comic store says that elves are pansies, its not gonna matter come release day when ones rippin it up.

[Lord_crapalot]

I like elves for several reasons. One of which is the way they role play. They're highly intelligent, highly trained, and highly arrogant because, well, they just roll like that. Also, the fact that there's 'mean nerds/archmages' as well as 'dark meanies/shadow warriors' is something I like.

They're not all pegged down as 'the same'. They're as different in personalities as humans are, but still all possess many of the same traits and qualities, as well as flaws.

I like how they're knowledgeable. They know man. They know what's out there, and they will fight it no matter what, because it's the right thing to do, AND because it's out of self preservation instinct. Survival man. Survival is the key. They're attacked by greenskins, chaos, not to mention the mean dark elves. I'm not sure about skaven and/or other meanies, but I'm sure that they fought them many times.

And hell, I quite simply love em. Their attitudes, appearance, life. I remember an even bigger fan of elves than I once said, they're like a spartan community. Everyone fights for the good of their country, and they're all highly trained warriors.

Beautiful "wipes eyes":D

[vazzaroth]

Dwarves have beards. And Axes. And beards. And they invented booze.

Also,
Elves cause cancer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Dwarves have beards. And Axes. And beards. And they invented booze.

Also,
Elves cause cancer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI)

....Thoden approves that message....

He didn't even have to list any of are good qualities to beat that elf lover! XD

[Vaeronthar]

I approve this message as well. And I like elves.

[Scirrocco]

I like elves because all their classes look great, while only two of the dwarf classes interest me.

[Athenys]

I approve this message as well. And I like elves

So you like them because they are disease-ridden, bloodthirsty liars with microscopic unmentionables...I don't get it :confused:.

[Lord_crapalot]

....Thoden approves that message....

He didn't even have to list any of are good qualities to beat that elf lover! XD

You do know why Dwarves have so big beards dont you?

And clearly Tordek doesnt rule, as only Tiax rules!!

[Captbigbeard]

I knew elves cause cancer... that means all you SOBs that are gonna roll elves are commiting mass murder!

[Thoden Firehammer]

You do know why Dwarves have so big beards dont you?

And clearly Tordek doesnt rule, as only Tiax rules!!

.....Bah! more elf lies, an' crap spoutin, go back t' yer tree. 8-)

[Konrad Siegesruf]

Nah, the humas is clearly better than both of them, true, we might not be as strong or steadfast as the dwarfs, we may not be as fast and graceful as the elves, but we sure know how to make our civilizations rise, not fall as both yours are!

[Lord_crapalot]

.....Bah! more elf lies, an' crap spoutin, go back t' yer tree. 8-)

Its not a tree...its a...ok its a tree.

[Nathar]

I knew elves cause cancer... that means all you SOBs that are gonna roll elves are commiting mass murder!

Roll elf today and help keep the human population low!

[Captbigbeard]

Nah, the humas is clearly better than both of them, true, we might not be as strong or steadfast as the dwarfs, we may not be as fast and graceful as the elves, but we sure know how to make our civilizations rise, not fall as both yours are!

Every great civilization falls. One day man's will too. You can be damn sure that even at the peak of it's power, mankind will never reach the magnificence the dwarfs once ruled over.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

Every great civilization falls. One day man's will too. You can be damn sure that even at the peak of it's power, mankind will never reach the magnificence the dwarfs once ruled over.

You can bet we are far from that yet :D.

[Jerrus]

I like Elves because of the TT game.

They are a tactical army that requires skill.

[Noesis]

Every great civilization falls. One day man's will too. You can be damn sure that even at the peak of it's power, mankind will never reach the magnificence the dwarfs once ruled over.

The Elves have always had a more prominent civilization than the Dwarves. Before that it was the Lizardmen.

Though the Dwarves can come in second place behind the Elves. Thats the way it usually is anyway.

[Eliphas-WorldBearer]

Must be some sort of mentality disorder is one of the reasons why many of these hopelesss people enjoy the likings of elf....

[Ginsu]

Theres such variation in Empire troops, the only sense of belonging I get is the fact they wear matching colours, hahaha. Although I have come to like this in Empire Troops, I envy the High Elfs for their infantry, their matching uniforms and gear give them a very professional look.

So yeah I admire them for that.

Plus have you seen the Elf ladies? Now THATS what im talking about!

[Konrad Siegesruf]

Are you like those beautiful but very creepy women?

[Lucrece]

First off don't get me wrong. I'm actually serious when I'm asking this question. I'm not being sarcastic. I am really curious as to why the elves always seem to be the most popular race. I just can't wrap my mind around it. After reading giantslayer, I REALLY can't wrap my mind around it. Remember it is only my opinion, and I know I'm in a minority hateing elves and all (at least Paul's with me!)... and I know I will get flamed. But I am honestly curious!

Ok, so I was sitting here wondering... why are so many people attracted to elves. I just don't get it? I figured the best way to get my answer is to go strait to the source!

1st and formost, god, do most male elves look like girls! Just like anime guys! I know people like to play the "pretty" race, and I can understand the appeal of elves to women, but why would any guy like a race so unmanly! This applies to high elves, as apparently dark elf guys can be quite scary... and thus manly!

2ndly their so wimpy! Sure they can swing a sword at blinding speed and are incredibly agile, but this is to offset their utter lack of toughness. It's like Arnold (terminator style), fighting Andy . Sure Andy is quick and might dodge the mighty ex-conan... but come on! Whose the real man?

3rd, their so damn snotty! You know the cliche rich guy. The snotty one EVERYONE hates? The one who laughs at the poor, and makes money without lifting a finger. Yes, the one that fully supports george bush only because it fills his own pockets. Imagine a race with a mindset thats very similar. You have High Elves. At least the dark elves are bad , but they got their own wierd leather and whip fetish thing goin on.

Ok elves have magic... I never been a fan of mages, but I will admit magic can be pretty apealing, but EVERYONE has magic, and as far as magic casters go, the high elves's just can't seem to compare to the awesomeness of the magnus and bright wizard (of course my opinion).

the ONE thing I like about high elves is their little streak of insanity. Every high elf has to cope with a little bit of bloodlust. Now thats cool, but not cool enough if you ask me! They offset this with their long pretty hair.

Now explain to me, HOW, you can like elves?:confused:

This is their tank... He's wearing a dress!
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SST_0807_18.jpg
Come on...

Summed up...your view on elves pretty much amounts to nothing more than sexist drivel with a large dose of masculinity crisis. You might have to come to terms with the fact that some people have grown past the juvenile attitude of being "manly," not to mention that seeing how the gamer archetype and the ideal of "manliness" have been complete antitheses since the Ice Age, it comes off as rather pathetic that out of all mediums through which you could achieve chest-thumping, grunting "manliness," you choose a videogame out of traditionally more fitting sources, say, football and whatnot.

[Nathar]

Summed up...your view on elves pretty much amounts to nothing more than sexist drivel with a large dose of masculinity crisis. You might have to come to terms with the fact that some people have grown past the juvenile attitude of being "manly," not to mention that seeing how the gamer archetype and the ideal of "manliness" have been complete antitheses since the Ice Age, it comes off as rather pathetic that out of all mediums through which you could achieve chest-thumping, grunting "manliness," you choose a videogame out of traditionally more fitting sources, say, football and whatnot.

I applaud you, sir, for a post that I found entertaining due to the fact that it was plenty filled with rightful statements.

Summed up, it's funny because it's true!

[Thoden Firehammer]

I applaud you, sir, for a post that I found entertaining due to the fact that it was plenty filled with rightful statements.

Summed up, it's funny because it's true!

Agreed, his reasons for not liking them were not very good...

[Festo]

i have never liked elves

for all the reasons ever stated ever on any forum

as for dwarfs

i just relate to them im not short at all but im really wide and am thicker than a rock and that rock is covered in hair

i just cant see how any man can relate to a hairless twig

[Vaeronthar]

Y'know, there are people who like playing skaven, orcs and lizardmen. Those are a bit farther away from human then elves are. Explain those guys.

[Nathar]

i have never liked elves

for all the reasons ever stated ever on any forum

as for dwarfs

i just relate to them im not short at all but im really wide and am thicker than a rock and that rock is covered in hair

i just cant see how any man can relate to a hairless twig

I assure you mate, I'm closer to a hairless twig then a rock covered in hair. I have little facial hairing and I can't really gain a load of weight.

That said there are many reasons for liking a class apart from just looks. It is the arrogance that I relate mostly to and the fact that I might not fulfill my thoughts of myself, but they do. I like 'em for that.

That said I respect any of you who don't like 'em.

[Festo]

I assure you mate, I'm closer to a hairless twig then a rock covered in hair. I have little facial hairing and I can't really gain a load of weight.

That said there are many reasons for liking a class apart from just looks. It is the arrogance that I relate mostly to and the fact that I might not fulfill my thoughts of myself, but they do. I like 'em for that.

That said I respect any of you who don't like 'em.

your right i was tired last night

i also have the same mind set as most dwarfs though im alot happier than most dwarfs i aint grim

stubbern as a dwarf :D

[Napler]

I like Dark Elves couse they fit my thinking, If you have someone bothering you just go out and kill him. The fact that deep down they are elves isn't important to me, I'd still like them if they were an outcast civilization of humans or demons. I also love the're fighting stile and the TT army.
However I do belive that the High Elves are too gayish, even the Sylvan Elves.

[Lord Tareq]

I like Dark Elves couse they fit my thinking, If you have someone bothering you just go out and kill him.

hmmm, not sure if I want to run into you on a bad day :p

I like dark elves because I always have a soft spot for the scheming evil dark lord, who makes up brilliant evil plans high up in his dark tower, but is somehow always stopped at the last possible moment by some good-for-nothing hero with too much luck.

[Vaeronthar]

I always had a thing for the Good for Nothing Hero. Unfortunatly, I could probably only pull that off with a Bretonian.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I assure you mate, I'm closer to a hairless twig then a rock covered in hair. I have little facial hairing and I can't really gain a load of weight.

That said there are many reasons for liking a class apart from just looks. It is the arrogance that I relate mostly to and the fact that I might not fulfill my thoughts of myself, but they do. I like 'em for that.

That said I respect any of you who don't like 'em.


Wow... even me?

This is a bit odd.

Oh well in anycase Vaeron made an interesting point, what about the people who like skaven, lizardmen, and the other less human races?

[Lord Tareq]

Wow... even me?

This is a bit odd.

Oh well in anycase Vaeron made an interesting point, what about the people who like skaven, lizardmen, and the other less human races?

Well if we believe Freud it has something to do with their sexual urges :eek:
Best not to go into that in detail.

[Lucrece]

Well if we believe Freud it has something to do with their sexual urges :eek:
Best not to go into that in detail.

As per APA findings, most--if not all-- of Freud's theories have been invalidated. As of now, he is merely a pioneer figure for the field of psychology.

[Fusko]

Well if we believe Freud it has something to do with their sexual urges :eek:
Best not to go into that in detail.
Its obviously hereditary.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Its obviously hereditary.


No, it's obviosuly hereditary, and a combination of sexual urges *dons his fancy glases*

[Nathar]

As per APA findings, most--if not all-- of Freud's theories have been invalidated. As of now, he is merely a pioneer figure for the field of psychology.

Don't try to take our sexual urges from us you.... you.... you... can't think of something good to say. Maybe I have urges.. not sure.

[Lucrece]

Don't try to take our sexual urges from us you.... you.... you... can't think of something good to say. Maybe I have urges.. not sure.

As per APA findings, only I have urges...;p

P.S. For the slow-minded who might take my comment seriously, it was a joke ;p (*gasp* No...really?!)

[Captbigbeard]

Summed up...your view on elves pretty much amounts to nothing more than sexist drivel with a large dose of masculinity crisis. You might have to come to terms with the fact that some people have grown past the juvenile attitude of being "manly," not to mention that seeing how the gamer archetype and the ideal of "manliness" have been complete antitheses since the Ice Age, it comes off as rather pathetic that out of all mediums through which you could achieve chest-thumping, grunting "manliness," you choose a videogame out of traditionally more fitting sources, say, football and whatnot.


What man wouldn't strive to be manly, I ask you? Do you not feel the urge to chop down trees with an axe? Do you not feel the urge too down a flask of Jeam Beam? Do you not feel the urge to mushroom stamp that snotty girl you work with everyday? If you do not, then you my friend, need a lesson in manliness! I will be your teacher... FOLLOW ME INTO THE REALM OF CHEST HAIR AND ALCOHOLISM!

What do you think of when you picture a true man? Ignore the common lies society feeds you about beauty being on the inside. Follow your true instincts. What comes to mind? Lumberjacks, pirates, vikings, boxers, old school cowboys (none of this brokeback stuff), Mr. T, and dwarfs!

How do you obtain this you ask? It's quite simple, the first step is hair! No, not the stuff on your head, but the hair on your face. Yes, facial hair... men can have it woman can't). It is the ultimate divider of the sexes!

"But Capt. Big Beard, I just can't grow facial hair. How can I ever be a true man like you?" The answer is simple my friend. Find a man bigger then you, with a beard down to his chest. Strangle him with your own two hands, PROVE YOU ARE THE BETTER THROUGH FORCE AND VIOLENCE, then tear off his beard with the strength of victory! A little bit of super glue, and you have your own beard. This is but the first step to becoming a man. From this point on you must follow your own path of steroids and bar fights to reach the halls of manliness, but I have faith!

Toss away your elves and their mockery of all that is man. Join the dwarfs, we may be short, but the rest of the world looks up to us!

[Vaeronthar]

Wow.

Beardling, yer an idiot.

[Krulltak]

My Gork are you late on that, Vaeronthar.

[Tyrannar]

I kinda like dwarfs, unfortunately they have some really poor excuses for advocates on these forums.

[Vaeronthar]

I've been on it the whole time. I just figured he understood basic communication concepts like implication. I see the error of that belief now.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I've been on it the whole time. I just figured he understood basic communication concepts like implication. I see the error of that belief now.


This is why Dwarfs don't change their minds unless it's absolutly wrong...

:P

Bigbeard seems like the exception, but then again his Dwarfishness doesn't seem to be all that up there... Bah! callin his own bretheren ugleh!

[Captbigbeard]

Ha, I'm more dwarf then you can handle! I would never side with pointy ears like you do. What I may lack in smarts I make up ten fold in drinking prowess, perhaps the two go hand in hand, but no matter brain cells lost for a good cause! I dare ya to put me to the test.

I bet you can't out drink an elf let alone a beardling.

The Elves have always had a more prominent civilization than the Dwarves. Before that it was the Lizardmen.

Though the Dwarves can come in second place behind the Elves. Thats the way it usually is anyway.

What is this, more lies from an elf lover? The dwarfs civilization always cast a shadow over whatever the elves could muster. The only thing elves can do that dwarfs can't do better is magic, and thats because their cowards who shy away from true metal!

[Thoden Firehammer]

Ha, I'm more dwarf then you can handle! I would never side with pointy ears like you do. What I may lack in smarts I make up ten fold in drinking prowess, perhaps the two go hand in hand, but no matter brain cells lost for a good cause! I dare ya to put me to the test.

I bet you can't out drink an elf let alone a beardling.



What is this, more lies from an elf lover? The dwarfs civilization always cast a shadow over whatever the elves could muster. The only thing elves can do that dwarfs can't do better is magic, and thats because their cowards who shy away from true metal!


Bah! yeh more Dwarfy than I? I even have artwork proving how Dwarfy I am, an' note lad I didn't make it!

An' jus' to let yeh know even though them Elves are lyin oathbreakin goblin fondlers, they can still beh right at times.

However Noesis is jus' soutin Elf propoganda as ususal, ignore 'em, that's wut I usuaeh dew.

[Zaggy One-Eye]

On that note, you cannot tell someone what is "manly". What is manly has many different opinions and views, depending culture, how you were raised etc etc. Saying my opinion/view > Yours, is just.. well.. arrogant. Sorry mate.. but if you didn't already notice, this is a world of many cultures which shape many opinions and your tiny little voice, is just one opinion.

That said, you accurately describe, I guess, what a Dwarf would view as Manly.. apart from it's not chest hair it's probably length of beard and colour, along with usual arm wrestling and drinking contests.

[Binkel]

What man wouldn't strive to be manly, I ask you? Do you not feel the urge to chop down trees with an axe? Do you not feel the urge too down a flask of Jeam Beam? Do you not feel the urge to mushroom stamp that snotty girl you work with everyday? If you do not, then you my friend, need a lesson in manliness! I will be your teacher... FOLLOW ME INTO THE REALM OF CHEST HAIR AND ALCOHOLISM!

What do you think of when you picture a true man? Ignore the common lies society feeds you about beauty being on the inside. Follow your true instincts. What comes to mind? Lumberjacks, pirates, vikings, boxers, old school cowboys (none of this brokeback stuff), Mr. T, and dwarfs!

How do you obtain this you ask? It's quite simple, the first step is hair! No, not the stuff on your head, but the hair on your face. Yes, facial hair... men can have it woman can't). It is the ultimate divider of the sexes!

"But Capt. Big Beard, I just can't grow facial hair. How can I ever be a true man like you?" The answer is simple my friend. Find a man bigger then you, with a beard down to his chest. Strangle him with your own two hands, PROVE YOU ARE THE BETTER THROUGH FORCE AND VIOLENCE, then tear off his beard with the strength of victory! A little bit of super glue, and you have your own beard. This is but the first step to becoming a man. From this point on you must follow your own path of steroids and bar fights to reach the halls of manliness, but I have faith!

Toss away your elves and their mockery of all that is man. Join the dwarfs, we may be short, but the rest of the world looks up to us!


That dwarf speaks the truth!

Nothin' be more manly than fightin', celebratin' yar victory in battle by drinkin', an' then go fight somethin' more cause ya be drunk! :)

[Lucrece]

What man wouldn't strive to be manly, I ask you? Do you not feel the urge to chop down trees with an axe? Do you not feel the urge too down a flask of Jeam Beam? Do you not feel the urge to mushroom stamp that snotty girl you work with everyday? If you do not, then you my friend, need a lesson in manliness! I will be your teacher... FOLLOW ME INTO THE REALM OF CHEST HAIR AND ALCOHOLISM!

What do you think of when you picture a true man? Ignore the common lies society feeds you about beauty being on the inside. Follow your true instincts. What comes to mind? Lumberjacks, pirates, vikings, boxers, old school cowboys (none of this brokeback stuff), Mr. T, and dwarfs!

How do you obtain this you ask? It's quite simple, the first step is hair! No, not the stuff on your head, but the hair on your face. Yes, facial hair... men can have it woman can't). It is the ultimate divider of the sexes!

"But Capt. Big Beard, I just can't grow facial hair. How can I ever be a true man like you?" The answer is simple my friend. Find a man bigger then you, with a beard down to his chest. Strangle him with your own two hands, PROVE YOU ARE THE BETTER THROUGH FORCE AND VIOLENCE, then tear off his beard with the strength of victory! A little bit of super glue, and you have your own beard. This is but the first step to becoming a man. From this point on you must follow your own path of steroids and bar fights to reach the halls of manliness, but I have faith!

Toss away your elves and their mockery of all that is man. Join the dwarfs, we may be short, but the rest of the world looks up to us!

...Some women actually DO have facial hair.;)

[Lucrece]

On that note, you cannot tell someone what is "manly". What is manly has many different opinions and views, depending culture, how you were raised etc etc. Saying my opinion/view > Yours, is just.. well.. arrogant. Sorry mate.. but if you didn't already notice, this is a world of many cultures which shape many opinions and your tiny little voice, is just one opinion.

That said, you accurately describe, I guess, what a Dwarf would view as Manly.. apart from it's not chest hair it's probably length of beard and colour, along with usual arm wrestling and drinking contests.

His response to my post was a failed attempt at humor, actually. Or at least I hope that he wasn't actually serious when he tried sarcasm on his post.

[QuantumTheory]

...Some women actually DO have facial hair.;)

That brings back many memories, especially from the hallowed time when I supposedly learned not to point in public after pointing at a woman with facial hair and yelling my ar*se of in the middle of the market square (I think I was 4, or maybe 5 at the time).

Alright, maybe just maybe Captbigbeard was over-reaching manliness (but comon, 'ow thick you get, it was SARCASM for Saint Pete's sake), and maybe there are other things that make a man, but I certainly know that the Elves display NONE of those other manly things. Elves are completely like human women. 'cept they got longer hair, run around more gracefully and arrogantly, and believe or not, in some ways Elves look more womanly than women themselves.

[Nathar]

believe or not, in some ways Elves look more womanly than women themselves.

First off I chose to remove the rest of your post from my quote because I can't be bothered to answer. Now this particular line though I found entertaining and in case that was the point please excuse the following.

Who the hell are you to judge what makes them "womanly"? You seem to be putting up a lot of criterias that you aren't willing to show but that you are completely sure cannot be judged or discussed. And don't tell me you'd be willing to discuss them because then you're not really to smart to just outright claim that something are one way. Pretty set in stone. Bah, you're simplicity annoys me!

[Lucrece]

That brings back many memories, especially from the hallowed time when I supposedly learned not to point in public after pointing at a woman with facial hair and yelling my ar*se of in the middle of the market square (I think I was 4, or maybe 5 at the time).

Alright, maybe just maybe Captbigbeard was over-reaching manliness (but comon, 'ow thick you get, it was SARCASM for Saint Pete's sake), and maybe there are other things that make a man, but I certainly know that the Elves display NONE of those other manly things. Elves are completely like human women. 'cept they got longer hair, run around more gracefully and arrogantly, and believe or not, in some ways Elves look more womanly than women themselves.

Refer to the post above yours. I know he tried to use sarcasm. I didn't think it was a very good attempt. It seemed to me more like an attempt to save face in a situation where he's being exposed in a less than likable light. He tried to change his original earnest position into a half/non-serious one on his reply to my post.

Either way, I know this is merely a forum, so I humorously replied back.;)

[Captbigbeard]

Who the hell are you to judge what makes them "womanly"? You seem to be putting up a lot of criterias that you aren't willing to show but that you are completely sure cannot be judged or discussed. And don't tell me you'd be willing to discuss them because then you're not really to smart to just outright claim that something are one way. Pretty set in stone. Bah, you're simplicity annoys me!

I judge them as womanly based off their appearance.

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301590&orignav=300988&ParentID=254974&GameNav=13

If you look really hard, you'll notice the one on the left has breasts, other than that they look the same.

All joking aside elves tend to have a more feminine appearance than other races. Their tall, skinny, pretty, dainty, and have long flowing hair. I may have just as well described a runway model. However, I am not trying to mock elves, without this appearance they wouldn’t seem as eerie.

Now I just know I'm gonna get flamed.

[Nathar]

All joking aside elves tend to have a more feminine appearance than other races. Their tall, skinny, pretty, dainty, and have long flowing hair. I may have just as well described a runway model. However, I am not trying to mock elves, without this appearance they wouldn’t seem as eerie.

Now I just know I'm gonna get flamed.

First off I have no intention of flaming you. If it seems so then I apologize and I will have chosen my words poorly. I disagree with you and there will always be people who like each other more then others, but that is as far as it goes. I hope there are no hard feelings from this.

Now to the discussion. My point wasn't that they aren't womanly but claiming they're more womanly then women is a bold statement I asked for him to elaborate on. And to your check list.

-Tall: That's hardly a female feature. In fact your average male is about 4 inches taller then your average female.
-Skinny: Now I don't know any statistics but with your average human I'd guess the weight is balanced between the genders.
-Pretty: I personally agree that your average female is much prettier then pretty much any male.... in fact not pretty much, just any male. But that says more about me than it does what pretty means.
-Dainty: Well I'll guess that's pretty much the same as above but maybe a bit more elegant. Granted it might be a femine feature.
-Long flowy hair: Look at the dark ages in general. Many wealthy knights had long flowy hair as a sign of their power. Many (if nothing else) soldiers and kings in northern europe believed that strength was in the hair and if they cut it they'd be putting themselves in danger. Hardly a female feature in those circumstances.

Even if you can call them female, you can't hardly call them more female than women!

[Thoden Firehammer]

First off I have no intention of flaming you. If it seems so then I apologize and I will have chosen my words poorly. I disagree with you and there will always be people who like each other more then others, but that is as far as it goes. I hope there are no hard feelings from this.

Now to the discussion. My point wasn't that they aren't womanly but claiming they're more womanly then women is a bold statement I asked for him to elaborate on. And to your check list.

-Tall: That's hardly a female feature. In fact your average male is about 4 inches taller then your average female.
-Skinny: Now I don't know any statistics but with your average human I'd guess the weight is balanced between the genders.
-Pretty: I personally agree that your average female is much prettier then pretty much any male.... in fact not pretty much, just any male. But that says more about me than it does what pretty means.
-Dainty: Well I'll guess that's pretty much the same as above but maybe a bit more elegant. Granted it might be a femine feature.
-Long flowy hair: Look at the dark ages in general. Many wealthy knights had long flowy hair as a sign of their power. Many (if nothing else) soldiers and kings in northern europe believed that strength was in the hair and if they cut it they'd be putting themselves in danger. Hardly a female feature in those circumstances.

Even if you can call them female, you can't hardly call them more female than women!


I say it's the figure, it's also the elven culture as a whole, but again this is in relation to the empire and Dwarfs

[Nathar]

I say it's the figure, it's also the elven culture as a whole, but again this is in relation to the empire and Dwarfs

Now I don't get this either! The elven culture as a whole. They spend a lot of time devoted on art and fine craft. They also study many things that in their world is similar to academic stuff in ours. Also they study combat almost to the point unmatched by any other race in the warhammer world (mind you, I'm not saying they're best, just that they try to be).
They are controlled by lords and kings. Inheritance and election chooses who.
Religion: Tons of gods worshipped in many ways.

Humans are basically a spin off of european dark age civilisation. Farming most of the place and trading and other stuff in the capitals. They are somewhat like humans was in reality.
They are controlled by counts and kings. Inheritance dedices.
Religion: Tons of gods worshipped in many ways.

Dwarfs work their asses off in mines for tons of minerals and their the best at using the same materials. They drink a lot, fight alot (and they're good at it). They are also amongst the finest engineers in the warhammer world and study how to improve this.
They are to my knowledge controlled by kings. Don't know who decides.
Religion: Worship ancestor gods, I don't know how.

I don't see how the cultures of the elves are so femine compared to the others. As I've requested before. Please elaborate instead of just throwing out unsupported statements!

[Thoden Firehammer]

Now I don't get this either! The elven culture as a whole. They spend a lot of time devoted on art and fine craft. They also study many things that in their world is similar to academic stuff in ours. Also they study combat almost to the point unmatched by any other race in the warhammer world (mind you, I'm not saying they're best, just that they try to be).
They are controlled by lords and kings. Inheritance and election chooses who.
Religion: Tons of gods worshipped in many ways.

Humans are basically a spin off of european dark age civilisation. Farming most of the place and trading and other stuff in the capitals. They are somewhat like humans was in reality.
They are controlled by counts and kings. Inheritance dedices.
Religion: Tons of gods worshipped in many ways.

Dwarfs work their asses off in mines for tons of minerals and their the best at using the same materials. They drink a lot, fight alot (and they're good at it). They are also amongst the finest engineers in the warhammer world and study how to improve this.
They are to my knowledge controlled by kings. Don't know who decides.
Religion: Worship ancestor gods, I don't know how.

I don't see how the cultures of the elves are so femine compared to the others. As I've requested before. Please elaborate instead of just throwing out unsupported statements!


I said culture, not life.

And I cna go for hours contrasting cultures, but i'd rather not...

[Captbigbeard]

First off I have no intention of flaming you. If it seems so then I apologize and I will have chosen my words poorly. I disagree with you and there will always be people who like each other more then others, but that is as far as it goes. I hope there are no hard feelings from this.



You don't have to tell me this :D. Just because a person disagrees with me don't mean I think their their flaming me. And it certainly dosen't mean I'll harbor any illwill. Your response is well thought out, and even kindly put.

And no, I don't agree with the whole elves are more female looking than woman. I think he was just kidding.

I do think male elves are pretty feminine though, but like I said, if they looked manly and tough they wouldn't be as eerie. Warhammer elves always reminded of "grays" (you know the big eyed aliens), not as creepy, but their eyes and emotionless stare make them seem similar.

[Zaggy One-Eye]

You should stop using the term "manly" really.. since what is Manly and what makes someone look manly, is entirely ones own view and also influenced by culture and race etc etc. Sure, they may not be "manly" to a dwarf or a Norscan, but that is what a man or male is within elven society. From what I thought their society has more equality among men and women than others, since they do actively take women and men into their army etc. They look Feminine to me and you because that is not what you'd expect of a "manly" person among humans. But their not humans.. their elves.

I don't think it's wrong for you to call them unmanly, as long as you understand it's from a view of A: A different race altogether and B: A different culture altogether. Saying their not manly and feminine definitively regardless of race, creed or culture, is slightly well.. arrogant.

[Lucrece]

I judge them as womanly based off their appearance.

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301590&orignav=300988&ParentID=254974&GameNav=13

If you look really hard, you'll notice the one on the left has breasts, other than that they look the same.

All joking aside elves tend to have a more feminine appearance than other races. Their tall, skinny, pretty, dainty, and have long flowing hair. I may have just as well described a runway model. However, I am not trying to mock elves, without this appearance they wouldn’t seem as eerie.

Now I just know I'm gonna get flamed.

Out of curiosity, why are they eerie? ;p

P.S. I think I haven't been fair to the thread by not saying why I like them, so here goes: I like elves because, even though some may find it puzzling, they're surprisingly similar to humans, even those of the empire. The twist that attracts me, though, is that, unlike humans, High Elves use the illusion of regal beauty and moderation to cover their barbaric, primal desires, whereas humans use the illusion of piety and "cultural advance." Dwarves, greenskins, chaos, and dark elves are all fairly blunt with their nature; what you see is what you get. However, High Elves are like a rose (pardon the perceived tackiness);they are alien, attractive, but they sting with the thorns if you let yourself be fooled into recklessly approaching them out of irresistible attraction. They are simply natural captivators.

[Captbigbeard]

I don't think it's wrong for you to call them unmanly, as long as you understand it's from a view of A: A different race altogether and B: A different culture altogether. Saying their not manly and feminine definitively regardless of race, creed or culture, is slightly well.. arrogant.
I don't think elves would even think on terms of things being manly or unmanly. I think they view intelligence the way most races view strength.

To us someone manly, is someone strong, brave, and unyielding. Gotrek is manly!

I suppose an elfs view of "manly," would be an elf who is intelligent, wise, and graceful.

When I say manly I mean the way people generally use the term. EXP- a lumberjack.is manly

Where as a mighty elf wizard would float above mud and grime, a mighty dwarf warrior would plow threw it as if it were not their. I prefer the dwarfs view of manliness.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I don't see why there needs to be a reason to hide your true nature, that sounds like a very elvish thing to do, and very cowardly...

[Nathar]

I don't see why there needs to be a reason to hide your true nature, that sounds like a very elvish thing to do, and very cowardly...

Please that isn't true. It is in warhammer lore something High elves do. But they go much much further then that. They don't hide their true nature, they supress (sp?) it. Not because they're afraid you'll see it but because they hope to weaken chaos through it. They believe that hunger, desire and other powerful emotions fuel chaos and as such they try to remove it.

Saying it's a very elvish thing is wrong. I'll go so far as to say that only slaanesh worshippers are more true about their nature than dark elves. Dark elves lie towards each other and I would be a fool to claim that they always fight honourable, but they aren't exactly lying about that either.

Wood elves, I actually don't know a heck of a lot about, but they're a very angry race and they would never claim to be nice to people that enter their forest.

I'm not saying elves are exceptionally true about who they are. But it isn't a racial thing as much as a high elf thing. And it's something they do because they believe it helps 'good'.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Please that isn't true. It is in warhammer lore something High elves do. But they go much much further then that. They don't hide their true nature, they supress (sp?) it. Not because they're afraid you'll see it but because they hope to weaken chaos through it. They believe that hunger, desire and other powerful emotions fuel chaos and as such they try to remove it.

Saying it's a very elvish thing is wrong. I'll go so far as to say that only slaanesh worshippers are more true about their nature than dark elves. Dark elves lie towards each other and I would be a fool to claim that they always fight honourable, but they aren't exactly lying about that either.

Wood elves, I actually don't know a heck of a lot about, but they're a very angry race and they would never claim to be nice to people that enter their forest.

I'm not saying elves are exceptionally true about who they are. But it isn't a racial thing as much as a high elf thing. And it's something they do because they believe it helps 'good'.


Nathar... I think you took my post too seriously, I know all these things, I just like to poke fun at them elves :P

[Andarte]

1st and formost, god, do most male elves look like girls! Just like anime guys! I know people like to play the "pretty" race, and I can understand the appeal of elves to women, but why would any guy like a race so unmanly! This applies to high elves, as apparently dark elf guys can be quite scary... and thus manly!

2ndly their so wimpy! Sure they can swing a sword at blinding speed and are incredibly agile, but this is to offset their utter lack of toughness. It's like Arnold (terminator style), fighting Andy . Sure Andy is quick and might dodge the mighty ex-conan... but come on! Whose the real man?

3rd, their so damn snotty! You know the cliche rich guy. The snotty one EVERYONE hates? The one who laughs at the poor, and makes money without lifting a finger. Yes, the one that fully supports george bush only because it fills his own pockets. Imagine a race with a mindset thats very similar. You have High Elves. At least the dark elves are bad , but they got their own wierd leather and whip fetish thing goin on.

Ok elves have magic... I never been a fan of mages, but I will admit magic can be pretty apealing, but EVERYONE has magic, and as far as magic casters go, the high elves's just can't seem to compare to the awesomeness of the magnus and bright wizard (of course my opinion).

This is their tank... He's wearing a dress!
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SST_0807_18.jpg
Come on...

1. learn the difference between dresses and robes.
Lets test... is http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_52.jpg a dress?

2. Do they look girly really? Atleast Warhamemr High elves don't.
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SST_0807_18.jpg For example that picture isn't girly at all.

3. They are wimpy? I would like to see you wearing all that armor and move as smoothy as they do. And btw, you think fighting like a god dan kun fu artist jedi is unmanly? HAH!

4. They are snotty? Ofcourse they are, and they have a reason to be, they are the best at everything, they are the best at using swords and everyother weapon... well maybe not choppas but they suck anyway, they are the best at magic... what else?

5. More about their magic... they do't seem to compare to the awesomnees of magus and bright wizard?... L2GI, made this just now and it's perfect for you, it means learn to get information. The Archmages can do everything a magus and bright wizard can, infact they can do it better, and they can do more. They can use every wind of magic there is. Those 2 can use just 1 :evil:

[Jumpe]

Where does this "elves are /feminine" come from?

Tolkien elves weren't feminine.
Warhammer elves aren't feminine. (even they look like they come from outer space)
WoW Blood Elves are feminine but it's a joke.
(and night elf males are supermasculine bodybuilders which might be considered "")

I'd like to see some examples.

[Feigro]

Where does this "elves are /feminine" come from?

Quiet you. LoTR elves are feminine. Just look at Legolas' Dad - simply majestic (http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/tolkien/h-2-1216-wood-elf-king.html).

[Lucrece]

I don't see why there needs to be a reason to hide your true nature, that sounds like a very elvish thing to do, and very cowardly...

High Elvish. Dark Elves have no qualms in showing their true nature.

[Lucrece]

2. Do they look girly really? Atleast Warhamemr High elves don't.
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SST_0807_18.jpg For example that picture isn't girly at all.


Yeah, it isn't girly; it is just plain ugly. They could improve a bit the figure and the face. I think the face needs more detail; it looks too flat, and the nose and forehead aren't pronounced enough.

This is beta, though. I think they will improve on the graphics.

[Captbigbeard]

1. learn the difference between dresses and robes.
Lets test... is http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_52.jpg a dress?

2. Do they look girly really? Atleast Warhamemr High elves don't.
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SST_0807_18.jpg For example that picture isn't girly at all.

3. They are wimpy? I would like to see you wearing all that armor and move as smoothy as they do. And btw, you think fighting like a god dan kun fu artist jedi is unmanly? HAH!

4. They are snotty? Ofcourse they are, and they have a reason to be, they are the best at everything, they are the best at using swords and everyother weapon... well maybe not choppas but they suck anyway, they are the best at magic... what else?

5. More about their magic... they do't seem to compare to the awesomnees of magus and bright wizard?... L2GI, made this just now and it's perfect for you, it means learn to get information. The Archmages can do everything a magus and bright wizard can, infact they can do it better, and they can do more. They can use every wind of magic there is. Those 2 can use just 1 :evil:

1. looks like a dress to me.

2.The elf in that picture looks pretty damn "girly"

3. Are they wimpy, maybe not wimpy, but their not tough or strong.

4.Well if they were the best at everything, the dwarf king wouldn't have removed the elf kings head.

5. I hate magic. Wimpy mages. Flashy colors. Fighting from afar. Cowards all of them :p
Where does this "elves are /feminine" come from?

Tolkien elves weren't feminine.
Warhammer elves aren't feminine. (even they look like they come from outer space)

(and night elf males are supermasculine bodybuilders which might be considered "")

I'd like to see some examples.

Tolkien elves weren't feminine? Did you even see orlando bloom?

Warhammer elves are feminine but i think that adds to their whole eerie alien look.

night elves are purple elves on steroids. And warhammer elves could tear them in two.

[Tyrannar]

Tolkien elves weren't feminine? Did you even see orlando bloom?



Holy crap you're not too bright.

[Selendor]

Did you know... that LotR is actually a trilogy of books! ;)

I lol'd.

Overall the discussion is meaningless. Manliness differs from species to species. The Elf males you see are what Elves consider to be masculine. They're tall, wise, and incredibly skilled combatants. To put it in Dwarf terms, it's sort of like how Dwarfs consider their women to be feminine. Would any other race really see it that way? Probably not.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I lol'd.

Overall the discussion is meaningless. Manliness differs from species to species. The Elf males you see are what Elves consider to be masculine. They're tall, wise, and incredibly skilled combatants. To put it in Dwarf terms, it's sort of like how Dwarfs consider their women to be feminine. Would any other race really see it that way? Probably not.


I remember saying this and it didn't effect the conversation....

[Andarte]

1. looks like a dress to me.

2.The elf in that picture looks pretty damn "girly"

3. Are they wimpy, maybe not wimpy, but their not tough or strong.

4.Well if they were the best at everything, the dwarf king wouldn't have removed the elf kings head.

5. I hate magic. Wimpy mages. Flashy colors. Fighting from afar. Cowards all of them :p

1. Well does you opinion make a robe to be a dress? Hell no.

2. Well if you live in a place that has girls that are that ugly.. I pity you

3. As I said, he wears as much armor as a warrior priest, maybe as much as a KOTBS, and yet he moves much more smoothly and faster. That requires strenght you know?

4. Well an exception fortifies a rule. And it was the dwarves that were stupid enough to go to the trap of the dark elves and start the whole war anyway.

5. Cowards... :D using your brains is cowardish? :D Ranged combat is tactically much more rewarding. You loose less men but you kill more... It's just stupid to say it's cowardish.

[Thoden Firehammer]

1. Well does you opinion make a robe to be a dress? Hell no.

2. Well if you live in a place that has girls that are that ugly.. I pity you

3. As I said, he wears as much armor as a warrior priest, maybe as much as a KOTBS, and yet he moves much more smoothly and faster. That requires strenght you know?

4. Well an exception fortifies a rule. And it was the dwarves that were stupid enough to go to the trap of the dark elves and start the whole war anyway.

5. Cowards... :D using your brains is cowardish? :D Ranged combat is tactically much more rewarding. You loose less men but you kill more... It's just stupid to say it's cowardish.


I think you're taking what he types way too seriously, I personaly would have never made that mistake....

[Vaeronthar]

I think you're taking what he types way too seriously, I personaly would have never made that mistake....
You're forgetting you're talking to elf fans here.

[Thoden Firehammer]

You're forgetting you're talking to elf fans here.


Oh right, the ones who also took me Elf bashing seriously... I nearly forgot.

Thanks Vaer.

((Note Vaer you may be an elf fan but this spite wasn't directed at you XD))

[Nathar]

I think you're taking what he types way too seriously, I personaly would have never made that mistake....

I am elf-man. I kid not! Humour on me, wasted is. No more, system failure incoming!

10
9
8
7
can't wait.... brzztr!

[Captbigbeard]

I have a good question.

A dwarf king and an elf king meet in battle. Who wins?

[Tyrannar]

I have a good question.

A dwarf king and an elf king meet in battle. Who wins?

Both of them, together. Against the enemies. Unless you're the dwarf king of course.

[Captbigbeard]

No I mean dwarf king vs elf king

[QuantumTheory]

First off I chose to remove the rest of your post from my quote because I can't be bothered to answer. Now this particular line though I found entertaining and in case that was the point please excuse the following.

Who the hell are you to judge what makes them "womanly"? You seem to be putting up a lot of criterias that you aren't willing to show but that you are completely sure cannot be judged or discussed. And don't tell me you'd be willing to discuss them because then you're not really to smart to just outright claim that something are one way. Pretty set in stone. Bah, you're simplicity annoys me!

Call me a simpelton and you don't even know what's the difference between a man and a woman? It's instinct, you complete simpleton, it's this sense that lets you distinguish between genders, and it's the same sense that tells you that you must eat food and that you must drink water. If you have no instinct to distinguishing between human beings, I am starting to doubt you have any instinct at all... oh what, did you mum have to teach you that you must eat and drink? I though Elves were suppose to be arrogant and prideful that they are smart (which they obviously aren't.

Now let me teach you a few tricks and things that affect your instinct in distinguishing between man and woman:

1) Women usually have long hair, but not just long hair like long hair, women generally have long, flowing hair that they always care about.
-Elves do too, they have even longer hair than women (they beat most women in the contest for womanliness (if that word exists))
2) Women don't have any beards.
- Neither do Elves, and some women actually have a small moustache (rarity) but no Elves have that, again Elves beat women
3) Women have this certain type of face, it is a difference that can't be put down in words.
- To me, male Elves and women all look the same. Same type of face, maybe just a bit more manly but so little, that it is almost unnoticable
4) Women have certain postures and stances that men would be ashamed to even think about using. For example, women tend to shove their backside out a bit and try to look appealing, men don't usually do that.
- I have noticed that males Elves take the similar (if not identical) stances as their female counterparts
5) Women spend half their life putting on manicure and decoration and whatever else there is (I don't know enough to name it all)
- Elves spend even more time doing that. Again Elves beat women

Now that I have given you a detailed explanation on the criteria I use to be able to say "Elves are more womenly and women themselves", you really have nothing to complain. So just close your mouth kindly and stop saying nonsense, you are boring me.

[Noesis]

Call me a simpelton and you don't even know what's the difference between a man and a woman? It's instinct, you complete simpleton, it's this sense that lets you distinguish between genders, and it's the same sense that tells you that you must eat food and that you must drink water. If you have no instinct to distinguishing between human beings, I am starting to doubt you have any instinct at all... oh what, did you mum have to teach you that you must eat and drink? I though Elves were suppose to be arrogant and prideful that they are smart (which they obviously aren't.

Now let me teach you a few tricks and things that affect your instinct in distinguishing between man and woman:

1) Women usually have long hair, but not just long hair like long hair, women generally have long, flowing hair that they always care about.
-Elves do too, they have even longer hair than women (they beat most women in the contest for womanliness (if that word exists))
2) Women don't have any beards.
- Neither do Elves, and some women actually have a small moustache (rarity) but no Elves have that, again Elves beat women
3) Women have this certain type of face, it is a difference that can't be put down in words.
- To me, male Elves and women all look the same. Same type of face, maybe just a bit more manly but so little, that it is almost unnoticable
4) Women have certain postures and stances that men would be ashamed to even think about using. For example, women tend to shove their backside out a bit and try to look appealing, men don't usually do that.
- I have noticed that males Elves take the similar (if not identical) stances as their female counterparts
5) Women spend half their life putting on manicure and decoration and whatever else there is (I don't know enough to name it all)
- Elves spend even more time doing that. Again Elves beat women


Lets see if I can use the same criteria for another comparison.

1) Dwarves are fat, smelly, and profusely hairy

2) They are very stubborn and often fairly stupid

3) They often make funny little noises when they eat.

So based on the above analogy, Dwarves are alot like wid pigs. I guess that makes them wild pigs right?

No, there is allot more that goes into being a wild pig than what I listed. There is allot more to being female than what you listed.

Male Elves take similar postures as human females? I really don't recall a single piece of literature or media which went so far as to explain a particular pose commonly used by elven men as feminine. Please keep your out of rational quasi-rational discussions.

So Elves do not have beards, they keep themselves clean, and have long hair. Big freaking deal. I would be willing to bet they still have penises, courage, skill with a blade, and the dumbest are still smarter than your average dwarf. I would take the hygienic attributes you described as "feminine" any day if I could have all of the virtuous qualities Elves possess in abundance.

[Captbigbeard]

Lets see if I can use the same criteria for another comparison.

1) Dwarves are fat, smelly, and profusely hairy

2) They are very stubborn and often fairly stupid

3) They often make funny little noises when they eat.

So based on the above analogy, Dwarves are alot like wid pigs. I guess that makes them wild pigs right?

Hell, even my above comparisons are more intelligent than yours. Male Elves take similar stances as females? I really don't recall a single piece of literature or media which went so far as to explain a particular pose commonly used by elven men as feminine. Please keep your out of rational quasi-rational discussions.

So Elves do not have beards, they keep themselves clean, and have long hair. Big freaking deal. I would be willing to bet they still have penises, courage, skill with a blade, and the dumbest are still smarter than your average dwarf. I would take the hygienic attributes you described as "feminine" any day if I could have all of the virtuous qualities Elves possess in abundance.

Lol, Quantum theory has you so beat! To be honest at first I thought his whole "elves are more womanly than woman" statement was pretty dumb, but he actually has some good points. I can now see what he ment, if not agree 100% with him.

Your just embarrassing yourself.

1. Dwarfs are fat, smelly, and hairy. Ok you got that one right I guess. They may be... round, but their also VERY strong.

2. Dwarfs are stupid??? They have some of the most advanced technology in the warhammer world.

3. They make funny noises. What are you talking about. Where as Quantum was simply stating fact, your just making stuff up. :rolleyes:

I've seen male elves take that posh girly stance, hand on hip, back bent, nose in the air. I hardly doubt the dumbest elves are smarter than the smartest dwarfs. Time and time again dwarfs have proved how smart they really are. If they were so dumb they wouldn't have kicked elf in the war of the beard :-P

Elves are some what feminine, even some elf fans on this thread have admitted it.

P.S. Elves cause cancer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI

[QuantumTheory]

Lets see if I can use the same criteria for another comparison.

1) Dwarves are fat, smelly, and profusely hairy

2) They are very stubborn and often fairly stupid

3) They often make funny little noises when they eat.

So based on the above analogy, Dwarves are alot like wid pigs. I guess that makes them wild pigs right?

No, there is allot more that goes into being a wild pig than what I listed. There is allot more to being female than what you listed.

Male Elves take similar postures as human females? I really don't recall a single piece of literature or media which went so far as to explain a particular pose commonly used by elven men as feminine. Please keep your out of rational quasi-rational discussions.

So Elves do not have beards, they keep themselves clean, and have long hair. Big freaking deal. I would be willing to bet they still have penises, courage, skill with a blade, and the dumbest are still smarter than your average dwarf. I would take the hygienic attributes you described as "feminine" any day if I could have all of the virtuous qualities Elves possess in abundance.

Stop talking, you are making fun of yourself.

To answer your stupid and thick criteria on us being like Wild Pigs:

1) We are not fat, we are muscly you simpleton*. Where does it state that the normal Dwarf is smelly? And being hairy (in the beard and bodyhair way) is what makes us men, and we are men. If our gender is male, and we look like men, I see nothing wrong with that. While with you High Elves, when your gender is men, you are female nevertheless. I find that disturbing and queer. If you would have right mind, you would too.

2) How so? You Elves think you are smart cause you can manipulate magic? No, that's not being smart, that's just being born with a skill, just like Dwarfs are born with much more muscle and strength. So no, you Elves are rightly very smart, Dark Elves are smarter, they at least have cunning and a will to survive. We Dwarfs have got the Gun, the Cannon, the Gyrocopter and all those other things that require serious thinking and intelligence to make.

3) LoL, that makes me laugh. Are you sure you aren't mistaken this for some other game?

So no, I don't think we are like wild pigs. Where I said that you are still Elvish but just too feminine, you said that we are animals, and you were clearly and terribly wrong. If I were to judge all Elgi by the way you act, I'd say they are a primitive and stupid race that just likes to insult without any evidence backing up the insult.

And lol, don't start using gross words like bulls**t. It's dumb, it's not Elfy, you are giving a bad picture to your mates, and most of all, it makes you look like a man that is poor and pitiful in real life and therefore tries to act cool ingame, except that he is doing it the wrong way.

*: being fat is not being broad. It is having a great deal of a substance that is called 'fat', fat and muscle are not the same thing, even one like you should have realised that.

[Skurk]

Lets see if I can use the same criteria for another comparison.

1) Dwarves are fat, smelly, and profusely hairy

2) They are very stubborn and often fairly stupid

3) They often make funny little noises when they eat.

So based on the above analogy, Dwarves are alot like wid pigs. I guess that makes them wild pigs right?

No, there is allot more that goes into being a wild pig than what I listed. There is allot more to being female than what you listed.

Male Elves take similar postures as human females? I really don't recall a single piece of literature or media which went so far as to explain a particular pose commonly used by elven men as feminine. Please keep your out of rational quasi-rational discussions.

So Elves do not have beards, they keep themselves clean, and have long hair. Big freaking deal. I would be willing to bet they still have penises, courage, skill with a blade, and the dumbest are still smarter than your average dwarf. I would take the hygienic attributes you described as "feminine" any day if I could have all of the virtuous qualities Elves possess in abundance.

That was one of the most blatant examples of frustrated trolling I've ever seen. Seriously, that was just plain embarrassing on your behalf.

[Captbigbeard]

This conversation reminds me of the war of the beard... ya know, where the dwarfs beat the snot out of the elves ;). Just admit, elves are a little feminine

[Thoden Firehammer]

That was one of the most blatant examples of frustrated trolling I've ever seen. Seriously, that was just plain embarrassing on your behalf.


I don't think he was tolling, he was just bashing Dwarfs, but he did do quite a big bash, I just post semi wity statements.

Sometimes they're just blatanly Dwarfy.

However almost all of his bashes were wrong, I didn't read em all but they're quite funny

A.
1. Dwarfs are not fat, the cofssion between stout and fat baffles me

2. Dwarfs do not stink, if we did it would dishonor our selves

3. Dwarfs take care of their hair especily their beard, if they didn't they'd dishonor them selves

B.
Dwarfs are indeed stubborn, but it's better than being arrogant, i'd also like to add that arroigance leads to ignorance, and ignorace leads to stupidity.
Also mind you the War of the Beard, the High Elf king arrogantly cut off the Dwarfs beard starting the war, thus his fault.
No where in the lore does it show any form of Dwarfen stupidty... /Thoden flex.

C. We don't, this is just some more elf propoganda, atleast what I sput has some truth behind it :P

Besides my question after reading this is, how would you even know? I doubt any dwarf would invite you for dinner.

Based upon my knowledge of elves, they all seem like arrogant prissy women, who seem that they must make excuses for losing, and fight among them selves like little children.
They also have the attention span of a child ....
They also clain they live in a civilized society but in reality it's just waiting to fall with each new generation, kind of reminds me of rome near the height of it's corruption >.>

[Nathar]

1) Women usually have long hair, but not just long hair like long hair, women generally have long, flowing hair that they always care about.
-Elves do too, they have even longer hair than women (they beat most women in the contest for womanliness (if that word exists))
2) Women don't have any beards.
- Neither do Elves, and some women actually have a small moustache (rarity) but no Elves have that, again Elves beat women
3) Women have this certain type of face, it is a difference that can't be put down in words.
- To me, male Elves and women all look the same. Same type of face, maybe just a bit more manly but so little, that it is almost unnoticable
4) Women have certain postures and stances that men would be ashamed to even think about using. For example, women tend to shove their backside out a bit and try to look appealing, men don't usually do that.
- I have noticed that males Elves take the similar (if not identical) stances as their female counterparts
5) Women spend half their life putting on manicure and decoration and whatever else there is (I don't know enough to name it all)
- Elves spend even more time doing that. Again Elves beat women


1) I've covered this in a previous post. In past times long hair was a sign of power, especially amongst northern european royalty, ancient greek and egypt practiced it and the western indian cultures and also the asian cultures. Go back to the middle ages, dark ages or ancient cultures and you'll find MANY examples of this.

2) Uhm. Some elves do have beards for one thing, example's of this has been given by others. Some men choose to shave - I do - and I don't see them for less men for it.

3) I'm aware of this. Showing cheekbones, thin chins, stuff like that. I don't agree that elves have such faces. Sure they have thin chins but their faces aren't human looking to me, they're much more alien.

4) Elves, especially men, have a very straight back. This is in fact more of a soldier-like stance then it is the model stance you're referring to. It would appear to me as though you are thinking of Warcraft elves here but I don't know of your lore background so I can't know.

5) I know of very little lore speaking of elves putting on make up. I know of lore about elves putting stuff in their hair (metal for instance to prevent it from being cut off in battle as they see it as a sign of strenght, much like dwarven beards, only to a lesser degree) but not manicure. Dwarfs do care for their beards too (to my feeble knowledge), is this so different? It's about caring for the aestathics.

Now that this has been said I want to add that we probably won't agree, but that doesn't remove a healthy discussion. I was actually glad to see you trying to argument for what you said, only one line annoyed me:

I though Elves were suppose to be arrogant and prideful that they are smart

I might be prideful and arrogant, but I am not an elf. I know the line was in good fun though, so don't read much into this part;)

[Captbigbeard]

Based upon my knowledge of elves, they all seem like arrogant prissy women, who seem that they must make excuses for losing, and fight among them selves like little children.
They also have the attention span of a child ....
They also clain they live in a civilized society but in reality it's just waiting to fall with each new generation, kind of reminds me of rome near the height of it's corruption >.>


Ready to fall... it has fallen. It's in a decline, much like the dwarf empire. Although the dwarfs withstood ten times more than them elves before their empire started to collapse.

I like to think no warhammer race really dies out. Save skaven and lizardmen. All warhammer races have their 40k equivilent. I like to think that warhammer 40k is warhammer in the future.

Elves-Eldar
Man... uh man
Orcs-orks
Dwarfs-Demiurg (not squats... squats were descended from humans)
Necrons- the undead
ect
ect

[Estebar]

Based upon my knowledge of elves, they all seem like arrogant prissy women, who seem that they must make excuses for losing, and fight among them selves like little children. At least we tackle our fallen kin head-on. I believe the stunties have certain curly-bearded cousins over in the Darklands whom they like to pretend don't exist. You might know of them, Thoden? Enthusiastic industrialists? Quite partial to slavery? Big jagged tusks sticking out of their jaws? Hairy four-legged lower-bodies of bulls? Worshippers of a dark god of Chaos and practicing black sorceries? Hmmm? Ringing a bell at all?

Didn't think so.

[Rejected]

I see so much envy of all things elven in this thread.

[Captbigbeard]

At least we tackle our fallen kin head-on. I believe the stunties have certain curly-bearded cousins over in the Darklands whom they like to pretend don't exist. You might know of them, Thoden? Enthusiastic industrialists? Quite partial to slavery? Big jagged tusks sticking out of their jaws? Hairy four-legged lower-bodies of bulls? Worshippers of a dark god of Chaos and practicing black sorceries? Hmmm? Ringing a bell at all?

Didn't think so.

Well... the dwarfs are no where NEAR the chaos dwarfs. The two leave each other alone. I love it when people bring up chaos dwarfs. Theres a perfect example of why dwarfs are better then elves. Elves... simply gave into their dark side. Dwarfs on the other hand had to be BLASTED by lethal amounts of chaos before they turned evil.

[Thoden Firehammer]

At least we tackle our fallen kin head-on. I believe the stunties have certain curly-bearded cousins over in the Darklands whom they like to pretend don't exist. You might know of them, Thoden? Enthusiastic industrialists? Quite partial to slavery? Big jagged tusks sticking out of their jaws? Hairy four-legged lower-bodies of bulls? Worshippers of a dark god of Chaos and practicing black sorceries? Hmmm? Ringing a bell at all?

Didn't think so.


I'd like to remind you that Chaos Dwarfs arn't technicaly Dwarfs anymore, and mind you taht Chaos Dwarfs and Dwarfs do not fight each other, most and if not all Dawi don't even know that the Zharr Dawi exist.

I'd also like to remind you that you, like always took amy post too seriously, that your you have a serious problem getting your humor across the net.

Now i'd also like to stress that fact that Zharr Dawi didn't willingly join chaos, Hasut killed all the leaders of that holds society and then a bunch more then asked for them to join or he'd kill the rest, and then only half of what was left join him, the other half fought the Zharr Dawi.

Also once more Zharr Dawi are no longer Dwarfs, both by appearance and culture :P

[Fiaryn-Kilif]

Where there is discussion of elves, there is ridiculous nonsensical hyperbole from both sides of the issue in liberal amounts.

[Thorval]

Dawi Zharr are far superior to the normal dwarfs, mainly because while the dwarfs are fighting to save what little tiny bit of honor and dignity they have left, the Chaos Dwarfs sit on piles of gold on their giant towers while slaves are sacrificed to their god, which sounds like a far better life then bashing in greenskins to save my home every day.

[Vaeronthar]

I've got to say, I can't agree with most of my fellow elf fans here. Elf men, in comparison to human and dwarf men, have many, many feminine traits. But elf women, in comparison to human and dwarf women, have a lot of masculine traits. I mean, hell, when have you heard of elven women manipulating more then men? Never, eh? What about elven women being particularly nurturing? It's just the way elven society works. Gender roles are, by and large, discarded. To call a elf man effeminate is half-true only; fact is, elves are just elves. They're judged by their virtues and their vices, rather then their ability to fit into a role, which isn't considered relevent to, well, anything.

Are they right or wrong? Who cares? Doesn't matter, does it?

[Thoden Firehammer]

Dawi Zharr are far superior to the normal dwarfs, mainly because while the dwarfs are fighting to save what little tiny bit of honor and dignity they have left, the Chaos Dwarfs sit on piles of gold on their giant towers while slaves are sacrificed to their god, which sounds like a far better life then bashing in greenskins to save my home every day.


But that's just the appeal of the Dwarfs, the mere fact that you can't loose another inch of ground to the green tide, the atmosphere of a declining empire, the Elve may have the declining empire, but it doesn't give the same atmosphere, also the Dawi have higher morals and standards than the Zharr Dawi ... obviously ...

[Rofllove]

:pBoth of your races are just based on human cultures taken to there extreme and handed weapons.