The Archmage's Staff

[Enkmar]

I can't find anything anywhere discussing this, so I figured I'd start a threat. Did anybody else catch the subtle references to Archmages using their staves?

During the Leizpeg unveiling of the elf careers, I think it's right at the end of the High Elf presentation, one of them mentioned something like "Oh, and they're really good with a staff too."

And then in another video I caught last night - the TenTon Hammer interview, they were asked roughly how a Archmage plays, and they said something along the lines of "Nuke, Nuke, Tap, Heal, Tap, Heal, Heal, Nuke, twirl your staff" or something to that effect. These aren't exact quotes.

But I was just wondering, did anyone else pick up on this? Do you think Archmages will have any sort of staff attacks? Do you think they meant melee, or envoking some sort of magic from their staff? Think all this means nothing other than they get cool staves?

Just a speculation thread, 'cause they're fun.

[kizen]

Maybe one or two attacks, but nothing more. Even so they're probably gonna be more magical based attacks where they summon a staff to beat someones skull in.

More realistically, it seems that it'd be use for defense if a melee fighter did get too close, even though I can't imagine a mage would have much of a chance against a chosen or black guard.

[Hatemonger]

Are you sure?

I saw a video or interview where they referenced the video of the High Elf (fighting with his staff) specifically. They said, 'Yeah, that's pretty much it.'

[Aeldor]

Once again people are using stuff they have learnt from other games and giving them weight here, where they do not belong.

Properly equipped, a Mage/Archmage in the TT could be amongst the most powerful MELEE classes in the game. There are a number of spells which help in this, and everyone surely knows Teclis? Teclis, depending on his mood, (and a healthy dose of Charoi), is either a Caster, or a pretty powerful Melee combatant. Admittedly he is far better at magic, but that doesnt mean he isn't a match for a good number of lesser races' hero's.

It really depends which way they want to go with the class. Balance is always such a horrible byword that people will throw about, but if the class is even competant in melee I imagine everyone would whine.

[kizen]

I've played the table top game for about 6 years now, and i'm well aware that casters arn't easy prey in melee. But...

My argument is based off the fact that everyone is playing a "heroic" character, seeing as it's independantly played, etc. This means they arn't playing a fodder, or a core troop. They're all experienced fighters, who have magically enhanced armor, weapons etc.

While a mage might beat the hell out of a core troop, you'd be hard pressed to find a mage withstand a melee assault from Rare/Elite choices in the TT. Or, another HQ choice that is decked out in melee gear could rip a caster up. Obviously some of that comes down to the skill of the players, but most people i've played against use their mages for the spells, and not their melee prowess =p

[Aeldor]

Haha aye you do have a point.

I just wanted people to perhaps get out of the mindset that a caster absolutely has to be easy prey in melee, and have no skills there whatsoever.

[Anaris]

I've played the table top game for about 6 years now, and i'm well aware that casters arn't easy prey in melee. But...

My argument is based off the fact that everyone is playing a "heroic" character, seeing as it's independantly played, etc. This means they arn't playing a fodder, or a core troop. They're all experienced fighters, who have magically enhanced armor, weapons etc.

While a mage might beat the hell out of a core troop, you'd be hard pressed to find a mage withstand a melee assault from Rare/Elite choices in the TT. Or, another HQ choice that is decked out in melee gear could rip a caster up. Obviously some of that comes down to the skill of the players, but most people i've played against use their mages for the spells, and not their melee prowess =p

but what about a heroic mage? sure, a Chosen is a fearsome melee opponent, quite clearly. but the lore of Life and Beasts (or rather their associated winds), coupled with High Magic's "i can basically do anything" philosophy means that a mage could potentially, even if only for the duration of a buff spell, whack a non-caster silly. fluffwise, anyway - magic is the ultimate weapon.


also, Aeldor - your sig. you know elves aren't immortal right?

[Aeldor]

also, Aeldor - your sig. you know elves aren't immortal right?

The quote is from the High Elf army book. Its more about the spirit of the race as a whole, not the individuals. The High Elves have existed for so much longer than a lot of the other races that things are new to the Empire of man are commonplace to them.
To me the quote is one of the more descriptive ones i've ever seen. It shows the age and splendor of the Asur, and their belief that even after their own deaths, where there is goodness, they will be remembered.

[Anaris]

The quote is from the High Elf army book. Its more about the spirit of the race as a whole, not the individuals. The High Elves have existed for so much longer than a lot of the other races that things are new to the Empire of man are commonplace to them.
To me the quote is one of the more descriptive ones i've ever seen. It shows the age and splendor of the Asur, and their belief that even after their own deaths, where there is goodness, they will be remembered.

yeah, i got most of that from the quote. i just wasn't sure of the provenance, i thought i'd let you know in case it was meant literally.

[kizen]

I'm going by what I experienced while playing the table top game. Fluff wise, I still don't believe a melee combatant that is at the same level as the mage would have any difficulty dispatching the mage IF he got into melee combat. Now obviously getting close enough to poke the mage full of holes is the hard part =)

[Willstar]

A wizard's staff has a knob on the end.... la la laa..

Yeah, I don't really see an Archmage as the guy who twirls his staff around and deflects arrows, spears and incoming swords with it as though it were nothing. He isn't an extreme martial artist. Though hell knows I'd like him to be! :p

I feel that they might have some specific skills, like knockdown or pushback which can be followed up by a quick, offensive/rooting spell so they can like run away and allow the tank to take their place, so they can take up debuffing/healing again or something. That would make sense. Mean close quarter skills, bent on creating some time and allowing for a run to safety, or space for a quick spell. What do you guys think?

[Truce]

Well, looking at the gamesday-derrived ability lists we have for the other casters:

Shaman seem to have no close-combat damage abilities at all.

Bright wizards have an ability that greatly increases their melee damage but rapidly drains AP and cannot be turned off until you're out of AP. I have no idea how popular/useful that's going to turn out, but obviously you'll want to think before activating it.

Magi have the ability to make their disk counterattack anyone who hits them in melee.

That's a very limited set of melee ability for the other "caster" type carreers. I would expect the archmage to be similarly limited. They will likely have some defensive things they can pop off to keep themselves alive a bit longer, though. Maybe a buff to temporarily give them a high chance to parry, for instance.

[Aldebrand]

Once again people are using stuff they have learnt from other games and giving them weight here, where they do not belong.

Properly equipped, a Mage/Archmage in the TT could be amongst the most powerful MELEE classes in the game. There are a number of spells which help in this, and everyone surely knows Teclis? Teclis, depending on his mood, (and a healthy dose of Charoi), is either a Caster, or a pretty powerful Melee combatant. Admittedly he is far better at magic, but that doesnt mean he isn't a match for a good number of lesser races' hero's.

It really depends which way they want to go with the class. Balance is always such a horrible byword that people will throw about, but if the class is even competant in melee I imagine everyone would whine.

Taking Teclis as example is not the smartest of things. A normal archmage can not completly alter his or her statline at any given time to favor melee combat, neither do they have have magic items like the Sword of Teclis at their disposal (not even melee heroes like princes can get better really).

A normal mage has the same statline as a spearman, only 2 wounds instead of 1 and no armor save. An Archmage due to extensive combat training has.... no improvements in melee stats, only another wound and an increase in leadership.

But like you said there are a few spells in the game that increases the casters statistics in favor of close in fighting, but these at least in my own experience were never used extensivly.
Mages generally died from a) getting shot down by arrows by walking around alone and unprotected. b) a spell from another mage. c) getting shredded in melee by any ordinary unit where the opposing player was smart enough to allocate attack on the mage, hoping to score about 25x more victory points than killing normal foot soldiers. d) miscast, but these were very few.

The only casters that can actually affect melee battles are probably the ones that are either special characters/ mounted on beasts that can fight for them/ slanns or vampires.

[Aeldor]

Taking Teclis as example is not the smartest of things. A normal archmage can not completly alter his or her statline at any given time to favor melee combat, neither do they have have magic items like the Sword of Teclis at their disposal (not even melee heroes like princes can get better really).

A normal mage has the same statline as a spearman, only 2 wounds instead of 1 and no armor save. An Archmage due to extensive combat training has.... no improvements in melee stats, only another wound and an increase in leadership.

But like you said there are a few spells in the game that increases the casters statistics in favor of close in fighting, but these at least in my own experience were never used extensivly.
Mages generally died from a) getting shot down by arrows by walking around alone and unprotected. b) a spell from another mage. c) getting shredded in melee by any ordinary unit where the opposing player was smart enough to allocate attack on the mage, hoping to score about 25x more victory points than killing normal foot soldiers. d) miscast, but these were very few.

The only casters that can actually affect melee battles are probably the ones that are either special characters/ mounted on beasts that can fight for them/ slanns or vampires.


I only posted that to enable discussion, and to point out that not everything is as black and white as some would like.

As for the Close Combat mage, if i'm not mistaken there is a new mage in the next army book that automatically comes with the sword of flame (or somesuch) spell, and mounted on a dragon, which is intended to work as a cc caster.

[Dastion]

Bright wizards are supposedly getting a spell which causes them to do extra damage with their staff at a cost of AP/second. Archmages are likely going to get something like this. I think the idea is that they want them to have something they can do if they are facing heavy interruption.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

Dastion, i don't think the Bright Wizards are using their staffs for that, on the TT Bright Wizards can cast a spell which creates a flaming sword in their hands :D. I can't see it for the Archmage though, something else for melee maybe...

[Dastion]

Funnel Power (Bright Wizard Ability)
All of your melee attacks will also deal very high magical damage. You will lose 50 Action Points each second that this ability is running, and it will only end when you do not have enough Action Points to power it further. You will not gain Action Points for 5 seconds after the effect ends.

Taken from war-resource.com, which has a pretty accurate listing of beta abilities. Granted, it's beta so just about everything will change somewhat. But just making my point :) Like I said, I'm sure there will be some sort of staff abilities like this for the robed casters so that they can actually do something while getting beat on. Im not sure if the Goblin Shaman had anything like this but the same sight points towards him having a PBAE Knockback called "Eeeek!" :-)

[Dustandpolos]

I'd expect his staff abilities to be limited to defensive moves such as parries and techniques for getting out of combat such as short stuns and knockbacks. In effect when the enemy reaches him his staff and AP drain skills keep him alive and at enough of a distance to wait for reenforcement or finish the enemy off with magic.

While Aeldor's right and some schools of magic open to HE do have flaming swords or grant animal-like ferocity, I'd expect the archmage's spells to be based more on the iconic High Magic list which, in TT at least, has never had such an ability.