2 Prposed changes for Swordmaster

[Delolith]

1) Tactic: Greatsword Mastery

Ok this has been mentioned many times in the Swordmaster forum... but Swordmasters are masters of Greatswords. So how about give them a nice tactic like http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1408 (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1408). It could be an 11 points Khaine mastery instead of the USELESS http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9063. Or it could be a generic tactic maybe in place of http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9050 ... which is useless as well imo.

2) Nature's Blade enchantment changes:

Atm Nature's Blade is a very situational proc...it is random by its nature since it is a proc...and what is even more random is the fact that it can steal useless stats from people...especially in small scale PvP. The BO version with the tactic is much better since you can debuff intelligence from WE...but this will buff your BW as well so that he would be able to do more damage.

Proposals:

- Nature's Blade is now a SINGLE target steal ability. It steals 90 points (with 15 points in Khaine) from ALL attributes of the enemy (except wounds) and transfering them to the SM. Further procs will overwrite the previous one for a renewed duration of the effect.

- Nature's Blade remains a 30 feet proc from target. It steals 110 points from Initiative and primary stat of the target (with 15 points in Khaine) while transfering them to the Swordmaster.
Primary stats are determined as follows:
Tanks - Toughness
Melee DPS - Strength
Ranged Healers - Willpower
Melee Healers - Strength
Magic Ranged DPS - Intelligence
Physical Ranged DPS - Ballistic
Further procs will overwrite the previous one for a renewed duration of the effect.

Delolith

[Ezraa]

Delolith thanks for the post

/signed

[Drowess]

I like your changes, especially the greatweapon tactic idea.

Personally for Nature's Blade, I'd prefer to see it changed to prioritise certain stats over others and have a separate chance (maybe 5-10%) to steal wounds.

As for Heaven's Blade a suggestion I have is for it to either increase spiritual damage done to the target for the duration or also give it an armour debuff in addition to its resistance debuffs.

[CorumSM]

Yes, very nice ideas there.

Here's another one.

Add a 65 ft 2s cone knockdown to Phoenix's Wing (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9025)
Firstly it would fit nicely with the idea of an offensive 2h Khaine Swordmaster and would maybe give them a little window to get some dps going before being cced.
Secondly, it might even up the odds a little when it comes to aoe knockdowns and disorients available to either faction (see below).



There are a number of aoe cc attacks used by frontline Destruction classes that work
really well together in the first 10 seconds of a clash.
Chosen Quake (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8349)
Marauder Insane Whispers (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8445)
BOrc Big Brawlin' (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1718)
Marauder Concussive Jolt (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8423)
Order have a couple of these types of aoe skills on defensive and ranged classes.
Chosen also has a 0.5 disorient aura but I am assuming the KotBS will too.

[Calelith]

/signed

I made my SM to use a greatsword not a a sword and board :D

[Calae]

Greataxe mastery, brilliant! Just well, rofl that a tactic like that goes to the IB instead of the proposed offensive 2h tank. The SM was a last minute idea I'm told and took a big dps nerf right before launch that would have made something like that just overkill, but should be implemented now.

Although the IB is way better I've stubbornly stuck with the SM hoping 1 day to get to play a real SM, and i dont mean just being a goober and using a 2h anyway, viably making someone care that i'm hitting them.

Also another idea, maybe try out making the channeled melee attacks like Ether Dance and Rend Soul do the attacks on an instant so we don't lose auto attacks and our prey can't just walk away while you're stuck in place to attack, would help Khaine spec assert it's place as offensive with a little burst damage move.

For anymore CC in this game I have to say no, one of the most endearing parts of this game was in early PvP when nobody had any CC, it's my subscription and I'd like to actually play my character rather than stand around stupid most of the time.

/signed for the OP

[Solfy]

/signed. GreatSword mastery ftw !

[Heavenfall]

Yeah, need something to make 2handers a viable option instead of giving up 25% block to gain 5-10% more dps. A tactic would go a long way.

[Yunaleia]

/Signed

All hail Delolith!

~Yuna

[Sandokap]

/signed

The problem of lack of damage with greatswords must be asserted.

[Xhaiden]

/NOT Signed

Guess I get to be the parade rainer. ><

There does need to be a Great Sword tactic. Something akin to Good Wif Shield, but more Good Wif Sword so to speak. So no problem there.

However, I think both of your NB proposals are too overpowering to be bluntly honest. NB and Da Biggest are designed to be random and designed to be most effective when attacking a large group of targets. By their design they are not intended to be overly effective on a single target but dangerously effective on a group of targets thus rewarding you for risk. You're asking for it to be either extremely effective on a single target or extremely effective on every target off a single proc.

Both sound potentially overpowering and unreasonable, imo.




Add a 65 ft 2s cone knockdown to Phoenix's Wing (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9025)
Firstly it would fit nicely with the idea of an offensive 2h Khaine Swordmaster and would maybe give them a little window to get some dps going before being cced.


No. With tactics and morale that gives a Khaine SM a potential total of 4 knockbacks. AoE, Cone, Single Target ( Tactic Slot ) and AoE Morale 4. Destro already complains about Order's wealth of knockbacks. This would push it over the edge and get us nerfed within 2 months I'd bet. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, remember.

PW should have some desirably effect, but a more reasonable request would be something like a cone stat ( Initiative? ) debuff ( Of which the BO has. Cone STR debuff. ).



There are a number of aoe cc attacks used by frontline Destruction classes that work
really well together in the first 10 seconds of a clash.


To be bluntly honest using Chosen or Marauder as an example doesn't work too well. Chosen, as you noted, should be balanced out by KOTBS. Marauder isn't even the same archtype as SM. Like it or not we have to look at what the BO does or what the BG will do ( It being the Destro offensive tank to SM being the Order offensive tank ).

We need to make reasonable requests guys. Nothing will get us ignored faster than making overpowered or unbalancing suggestions. =/

[Grimnori]

Good ideas but i wont hold my breath

[Gobsmaka]

Those are all excellent ideas.

I was thinking also adding the Block statistics to SM great swords, so they are not pigeon holed into S&B when tanking.

Give them a choice :)


~G

[Sandokap]

/NOT Signed

[cut...]

We need to make reasonable requests guys. Nothing will get us ignored faster than making overpowered or unbalancing suggestions. =/

Ok, I gotta sign this one post. Previously I /signed but I meant to do it just for the Greatsword proposal.

Nature Blade has to be buffed but it would easily become overpowered with the buffs mentioned in the OP.

And the buff to Phoenix Wing would really give order to much CC. Better add a DOT or an attribute steal.

[Sandokap]

Those are all excellent ideas.

I was thinking also adding the Block statistics to SM great swords, so they are not pigeon holed into S&B when tanking.

Give them a choice :)


~G

Add parry if you need, block is and must be a shield stat.

But no more survival tool must be given to greatswords, it mustn't be a mean for tanking but to deal damage; our tanking side comes from skills and plate armor.

[Taonis]

I think Nature's Blade could use more ultility, certainly. Having it randomly proc random stats means that it may debuff/buff something completely irrelevant to both the Swordmaster and their target, meaning the skill has a net effect of doing nothing at all.

If anything, I'd like to see each class have a list of relevant skills to their class that takes into account what the primary damage dealing statistic is for the class and converts that into strength for the Swordmaster or Black Orc, then the other abilities drain normally.

Weaponskill, of course, could also be something that could be considered discretionary, since it's really not necessary for the Zea/RP, Sha/AM, Sor/BW, Mag/Eng, or SH/SW pairings.

The rest could transfer over, assuming that Willpower will eventually contribute meaningfully to resists and disrupt, of course.

Also, the greatsword mastery idea is a good one. It would also make it much more interesting than having to worry about the fact that so many Swordmaster tactics in the endgame have nonscaling DoTs to compete with higher and higher stats.

[quik77]

I'd love it if Natures instead or in addition to the stat steal, stole parry/dodge/disrupt.
or every person it stole from it would also steal say 5-10 wounds, not a whole lot per person but enough to make them wonder what the hell is this dude still doing alive (or is that a BO thing only lol)

and while we are at it why not have Heavens blade steal the resistance instead of just debuffing, so we get an anti magic buff from using it.

what can I say I like stealing stuff.

I also like things that up our disrupt/dodge/parry when we have a 2h (cause thats pretty much the 3 things that block does, 1 block =~( 1 dodge + 1 parry + 1 disrupt) ?)

so as far as greatsword tactic I'd love +10% damage and since we are the anti magic tank +5% disrupt (or disrupt/dodge/parry)


but I'd take the suggestions as is in a second too ^^

/signed

[Xhaiden]

and while we are at it why not have Heavens blade steal the resistance instead of just debuffing, so we get an anti magic buff from using it.


I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Heaven's Blade

Make it debuff resistance and buff your resistance.


Blessing of Heaven

Make's Heaven's Blade also buff the resistances of all groupmates within 30 feet.


Boom, anti magic tank. =p

[HandsomeJakky]

/signed great thread.

I'm taking a hiatus from war, I know I'm nothing special but I am going to focus on more fun intensive activities. Like playing my Les Paul, playing with my cats, and generally having to deal with my family for the holidays. Hope the Swordmaster sees some love.

[Zoranda]

However, I think both of your NB proposals are too overpowering to be bluntly honest. NB and Da Biggest are designed to be random and designed to be most effective when attacking a large group of targets. By their design they are not intended to be overly effective on a single target but dangerously effective on a group of targets thus rewarding you for risk. You're asking for it to be either extremely effective on a single target or extremely effective on every target off a single proc.

Both sound potentially overpowering and unreasonable, imo.
Beware the logical fallacy; obviously the change imparts a design change, but the actual numbers suggested are a different component. Unless, of course, you argue that the ability becoming more reliable as the boolean overpowered/not so factor.

Perhaps I misinterpret your post, in which case I apologize. I like the idea proposed, and I'm sad to see it be dismissed in what strikes me as a "your numbers are too high, idea is void" fashion.

[Xhaiden]

Perhaps I misinterpret your post, in which case I apologize. I like the idea proposed, and I'm sad to see it be dismissed in what strikes me as a "your numbers are too high, idea is void" fashion.

Ok, let me try again:

Nature's Blade is basically designed to reward a sustained attack. The longer you press the offensive and the more targets you're attacking the better the reward. Yes its random what stat it steals, but you have a 1 and 4 chance of it going off every swing.

Every class typically has 2-3 stats that aren't important to it. So you have just over a 50% chance of stealing a stat that is moderately to very important when NB procs. NB proc's on 1 in 4 attacks. See where I'm going with this? The longer you're on a target the more dangerous NB becomes. You will inevitably steal something important in a matter of seconds.

The OP is suggesting two ideas:

The first is making Nature's Blade steal EVERY stat on a single proc but only affect a single target. This quite literally means you have a 1 in 4 chance every swing of reducing your target's effective level and increasing your own.

Basically you have a 1 in 4 chance of creating a 6-8 level gap between you and your target with every swing.

Does that sound balanced? No.


The second is making Nature's Blade steal the "best" stat off a single proc in addition to Intiative. Eliminating the random factor entirely. The random factor is the very thing that makes Nature's Blade balanced. What he's asking is that we can basically charge a warband and have a 1 in 4 chance of reducing the primary effectiveness of every single member of that warband, regardless of class, in a single swing provided they're in proc range. As well as increase the chance to critically hit them by about 15% ( At level 40 ) and reduce their chance to evade. All off a single proc that has a 1 in 4 chance of going off every swing.

Does that sound balanced? No.


With the way NB functions now it's essentially like a juggernaut effect. The first proc may not be much cause for concern, but an SM in your ranks sustaining an attack on someone quickly adds up to a severe debuff threat. Which is what an offensive tank should be doing.

The way the op is proposing it we basically reach the peak effectiveness and "best case scenario" of the current Nature's Blade in a single trigger of the proc. I seriously doubt Mythic would consider such a thing.

So like I said, we're better served asking for more reasonable changes.

[Lexloci]

Can some one point me in the direction of a why those two "replacement" tactics are useless?

They both look pretty solid to me, do they just not work? And while I agree you probably -should- have some kind of greatsword mastery, I can't take the OP seriously until I understand why those are useless.
Note: that that's also ignoring the fact every career gets some "useless" tactics.

[Valarion]

/signed

Please for the love of God Mythic remove the crap/broken skills and fix the Khaine tree already.

[Melongod]

fix our bugged shields that dont block please

[Zoranda]

The first is making Nature's Blade steal EVERY stat on a single proc but only affect a single target. This quite literally means you have a 1 in 4 chance every swing of reducing your target's effective level and increasing your own.

Basically you have a 1 in 4 chance of creating a 6-8 level gap between you and your target with every swing.

Does that sound balanced? No.
As well as increase the chance to critically hit them by about 15% ( At level 40 ) and reduce their chance to evade. All off a single proc that has a 1 in 4 chance of going off every swing.

Does that sound balanced? No.
Ah, but there it is; you're discarding the effect mechanic change based on its arguably arbitrary numbers. I'm favoring the base change, which would leave the delve values to tweaking and balancing. Inarguably either incarnation of the ability would need to take availability of use/chance to proc favorably into consideration when deciding how powerful it should be. Morale abilities make good analogies; they're not very easily accessed - you have to spend the time and effort to fill the morale bar - and as a result they're more powerful than other abilities.

I think this falls under the fallacy of necessity; you presume that the numbers will always be the case, and reject the mechanic for it. I don't see how having a more reliable yet less powerful debuff would usher us into imbalance.

You're very free to disagree, of course. If you want the ability to remain arguably freakish and random, that's us in a disagreement. If you reject the ideas because of the 6-8 levels and the 15% crit chance, that's us arguing different theses; me the mechanic, and you the values.