Rock, Paper, Scissor.....and Healers?

[Atekimogus]

I was just watching the podcast refering to archetypes. It seems Warhammer follows relativle close the established rock paper scissor concept.

Tanks > melee dps, <range dps
Melee dps > ranged dps, <tanks
Ranged dps >tanks, <melee dps

So far so good, every archetype is strong against one archetype and has a weakness against another one.

But where do healer fit into this concept? Sure they get not tired telling us that every healer is also "a substantial dps career" but as far as I am concerned I do not care how much dps I have.

I DO care however if I am competitive on my own. Now the podcast says that healers are good vs. ranged magic and weak against close combat but from what I have heard so far the warrior priest is rather weak against ranged classes, so I am a bit confused.

So what may I assume? Dismissing skill for a moment, all classes have an advantage against one, and a disadvantage against another class. And healers? Have they automatically a disadvantage against all other archetypes or are they also the nemesis of one archetype?

Sure, these things are not relevant when in a group but I get more and more the feeling that no matter the dps (which equals not power imho) healers will be a free kill if catched alone. Altough the podcast repeatedly states that healer are great in dps I strongly got the impression that they still are more or less helpless when not in a group mainly because the listed strengths/weaknesses a healer has doesn't seem to match the warrior priest.....thoughts?

[Bloodreign]

Warrior prist are more like melee tanks and are to be considered as such, in the classVclass comparisions. They should be good against melee dps and weak against ranged. They are not the stand back and heal bot like in other games. They get bonus to healing for being in the fight. So you will not be as effective if you hang back and let everyon else have all the fun. It seems like the type of class that all healers in other games wish they were.

[Kellidain]

The other possibility is that they're simply intended to be average against all other classes - which could be a really sticky process to perfect.

[Atekimogus]

The other possibility is that they're simply intended to be average against all other classes - which could be a really sticky process to perfect.

Well, that would be my dream really, no particular strengths against an archetype but also no particualar weakness against anyone, it would be all down to skill.

But unfortunatly such classes seem to have a tendency to end up at a disadvantage against everyone because everyone gets beaten by them once in a while which leads to the false assumption of overpowerdeness---->nerfbat.

[Lord Tareq]

What I think, is that the different classes within an archtype have different degrees of weakness/strength against their anti-archtype.

For example Black Guard, Chosen and Black Orcs are all part of the tank archetype.
However black orcs might be more vulnerable to melee dps then the other tanks, and more effective (compared to the other 2 tanks) against magical ranged dps
Black guard on the other hand might be more effective against melee dps compared to the other 2 tanks, but even more at a disadvantage when facing ranged classes then the other tanks.
etc..etc..

[Paraclete]

What I think, is that the different classes within an archtype have different degrees of weakness/strength against their anti-archtype.

For example Black Guard, Chosen and Black Orcs are all part of the tank archetype.
However black orcs might be more vulnerable to melee dps then the other tanks, and more effective (compared to the other 2 tanks) against magical ranged dps
Black guard on the other hand might be more effective against melee dps compared to the other 2 tanks, but even more at a disadvantage when facing ranged classes then the other tanks.
etc..etc..

That's not really the point he is trying to get across.
What he is saying is that their are certain SUPPORT archetypes that have no listed adv and disadv and he is wondering whether or not it's going to be a bore to be one of those classes because solo "PvP"ing would be impossible due to the lack of strengths against any particular enemy.

[Serai]

I noticed this too and it was rather concerning... As I remember (haven't seen it since it came out), they listed support as good against ranged, and weak to melee dps? If so, doesn't that put ranged at an immediate disadvantage against all classes too? And Melee at an immediate advantage. This couldn't be the case since they wouldn't stifle one archetype- thats just asking for the nerfbat. I'd like to say don't worry because those are just generalizations he made, really not even thinking outside the stereotypes. So if the rock paper scissors method were to be "perfected" we'd just need to add in one neutral variable. for example:

Tank>Melee>Support>Ranged>Tank

problem solved?

[Paraclete]

Serai you sir are a god of logic amongst men.

[Lord Tareq]

That's not really the point he is trying to get across.
What he is saying is that their are certain SUPPORT archetypes that have no listed adv and disadv and he is wondering whether or not it's going to be a bore to be one of those classes because solo "PvP"ing would be impossible due to the lack of strengths against any particular enemy.

I can read the OP's post. What I ment is that the balancing isn't nessecary solely based on the archtype. You can't say "omg, healers aren't included in the archetype/balancing thing, the game balance is lost!" simply because it isn't even certain it will be as black and white as Archetype X > archetype Y > Archetype Z > Archetype X
And even if it was the case, the 3 healing classes of either side could well be all countering a different archetype.
warriorpriest > archetype X
Archmage > archetype Y
Runepriest > archetype Z

[Atekimogus]

Well it is stated that healers are good against ranged and weak against melee classes and he acknowledges that the healers are subdivided into melee and ranged healers.

But unfortunatly he doesn't say what advantage melee healers have to counter their natural disadvantage, namely not beeing ranged. If you as healer are good vs ranged classes than it surly is helpful if you yourself can retaliate without need to close the gap to your opponent.

So what have melee healers to counter this? Better armor? (now that worked mightily fine in wow:roll:) Charge abilities? Snares? Slows? Stuns?

[Biocide]

Stuns?

:eek: Stuns are not my friend.

On topic, I'd have to say that it'll be a harder balancing act for them. Obviously, the melee healers will have different advantages and weaknesses compared to normal healers, but balancing the risk/reward of melee healing's generally a nightmare in MMOs.

[Ogmios22188]

I was just watching the podcast refering to archetypes. It seems Warhammer follows relativle close the established rock paper scissor concept.

Tanks > melee dps, <range dps
Melee dps > ranged dps, <tanks
Ranged dps >tanks, <melee dps

So far so good, every archetype is strong against one archetype and has a weakness against another one.

But where do healer fit into this concept? Sure they get not tired telling us that every healer is also "a substantial dps career" but as far as I am concerned I do not care how much dps I have.

I DO care however if I am competitive on my own. Now the podcast says that healers are good vs. ranged magic and weak against close combat but from what I have heard so far the warrior priest is rather weak against ranged classes, so I am a bit confused.

So what may I assume? Dismissing skill for a moment, all classes have an advantage against one, and a disadvantage against another class. And healers? Have they automatically a disadvantage against all other archetypes or are they also the nemesis of one archetype?

Sure, these things are not relevant when in a group but I get more and more the feeling that no matter the dps (which equals not power imho) healers will be a free kill if catched alone. Altough the podcast repeatedly states that healer are great in dps I strongly got the impression that they still are more or less helpless when not in a group mainly because the listed strengths/weaknesses a healer has doesn't seem to match the warrior priest.....thoughts?
I think it will depend on whether or not the healer is melee or ranged. Take the Warrior Priest, for example. He's a melee healer. So, melee DPSers are typically weak strong against ranged, but weak against tanks. Maybe a balance has been struck, in that Warrior Priests won't be as effective against ranged as pure melee DPSers, but will be stronger against tanks than pure melee DPSers. The same principle can be applied to the ranged healers. Ranged DPSers are strong against tanks, but weak against melee DPSers. Maybe the healer won't be as effective against tanks as pure ranged DPSers, but will be stronger against melee than pure ranged DPSers. Just my two cents.

[sonofsigmar]

I like to think of the WP as a Black Orc with reduced armor and reduced health that can heal himself. If he could still heal himself and had the same armor and health wouldnt that make the WP invincible?

Anyway, as for the OPs concern, from what ive read during gameplay; alone, each and every class looks like roadkill when it is unsupported, no matter which archetype it is (grouping is fundamental). Think of any archetype, any at all and suddenly you will discover that a certain class is designed to beat that class if it is unsupported. A Bright Wizard can burn down the strongest of tanks so Ranged > Tank. The same Bright Wizard in close combat is just fodder for Choppas and Marauders, so Melee > Ranged. A Choppa does nothing but tickle Ironbreakers right? A Magus would do a better job, so Tank > Melee.

I know we already know this, so where does that leave a WP? Simple. Ranged will blow him into the sky, just like any other tank while he can stand ground against Melee, because his damage is decent and he can heal himself(they say a fully pumped up WP has quick, cheap heals so interruption shouldnt be a problem, also many of his moves are melee, not cast[some heals fall here] so they are somewhat quicker). A shaman on the other hand, is Ranged, just like a Bright Wizard, so he is fodder for the Witch-Hunters.

In my opinion, tanks have already accepted that if a considerable distance exists between them and a Bright Wizard, they are dead (same in WoW, a paladin does not charge a mage or warlock 40ft away and win). The same Bright Wizards concede that if a Marauder shows up behind them instantly, thats the end of the line (rogues and feral druids had field days with the same casters). Seeing as to how close the combat will actually be, and taking factors like CD and player-affected LOS come into account; my advice would be if you see a Magus or Ranged DPS, close the gap quickly, if not, hide behind your tank and ask your Engineer or WH to deal with the Magus, then rush the Ranged while he/she is occupied

I think the game is balanced fine enough, from what people who have played told me, a WP has weaknesses like everyone else. A clever WP has almost none.


[sorry for wall of text]

[QuantumTheory]

It would be best that the support class, as the archetype that it is, has a fair chance against everyone. It can heal itself and do damage, but the other classes are better at damage or health. So in the end, it would only be skill that decides, or luck. A fully runed Runemaster could probably go against a Black Orc, Choppa or Squig Herder, because he could heal himself. But in the end, the damage or durability of the other class would ultimately prove the doom of both, the support would be at the edge of death without mana, and the other class at the edge of death too... then it would only be the lucky last-blow which would win.

[Foofmonger]

The reason it dosen't make sense is that your initial analysis is flawed.

It most likely goes

Tanks>Meele>Support>Ranged>Tanks

There you go.

Tanks have the damage mitigation and the close combat prowess to beat meele DPS. Meele DPS has the damage to cut through support faster then anyone else (and to keep them in range). Support classes have the mitigation to survive ranged classes, and can dish the damage back. Ranged classes can kite tanks, and their heavy armor is less effective then against meele dps.

Thats for 1 on 1 fights, its really not that pertient to the actual game.

[Axxar]

Tanks own: Melee DPS
Melee DPS own: Ranged DPS and healers.
Ranged DPS own: Tanks.
Healers own: Ranged DPS.

[tzeencz]

Obviously healers will be "mushrooms" in WAR.

Back on the topic. As i recall from gameplay reports WPs were eaten alive by range fire, just like tanks. On the other hand they hold their ground pretty well against melee dps. Anyway it`s getting focused that kills you most of the time.

One thing to remember - WP and even more - runepriest, are quite well armoured, contrary to - for ex. shaman and archmage. In conclusion not all healers are alike and share same strenghts and weaknesses.

What makes me wonder is usefulness of shields (and how easy it will be to switch weapons in combat) - that might be the tool allowing to survive first seconds of fight...

[Foofmonger]

Tanks own: Melee DPS
Melee DPS own: Ranged DPS and healers.
Ranged DPS own: Tanks.
Healers own: Ranged DPS.

Nowhere has it been stated yet that meele dps is the counter to ranged, although I am not denying it.

Ranged and Meele DPS under the current formula are soft-counters to each other, not hard (meaning it could go either way). Same with tank vs support.

And people, you need to realize that support class doesn't = healer. There are no healers in WAR, there are plenty of support classes though.

Also an exception to the rule might be meele support. Chances are meele support is better against meele dps then normal support, and worse against ranged dps.

[Stingray]

Ok here is what I think it will be...

Support are going to be the Hybrids of WAR... each healer seems to have a main counter part... like Tank for Warrior Priests. They will fall under the same group as their counterparts, BUT they will be weaker. Basicly support might have the all around disadvantage in a straight up fight, but make up for it with great group utility. In other words if you want to go around killing people in 1v1 DON'T go support... you should always have a disadvantage, BUT in exchange your impact on a group is much better aka you will find groups easily. Thats how support usaully works... you trade solo usefullness for group usefulness.

Also this game SHOULD NOT be focused on 1v1 it should at the smallest levels be focused on group v group. Organized team play is funner than random chaos imo.

[Foofmonger]

Ok here is what I think it will be...

Support are going to be the Hybrids of WAR... each healer seems to have a main counter part... like Tank for Warrior Priests. They will fall under the same group as their counterparts, BUT they will be weaker. Basicly support might have the all around disadvantage in a straight up fight, but make up for it with great group utility. In other words if you want to go around killing people in 1v1 DON'T go support... you should always have a disadvantage, BUT in exchange your impact on a group is much better aka you will find groups easily. Thats how support usaully works... you trade solo usefullness for group usefulness.

Also this game SHOULD NOT be focused on 1v1 it should at the smallest levels be focused on group v group. Organized team play is funner than random chaos imo.

I don't agree.

Support in WAR have the ability to both heal themselves, and deal damage. That actually puts them at a very good starting point for most 1 on 1 fights. What we have heard so far, is that specifially, support will be good against ranged dps. Why? Because most of the support classes have the range to deal damage back without worrying about being kited, and can heal the damage done to them.

It seems that the meele support might be more of the same, but good against the meele dps classes instead of ranged (and vice versa).

[Snuggans]

i believe the warrior priest will have a slight advantage against melee because of the type of armor they use. its not as heavy as a tank's but its more than chainmail so that has to count for something. currently it seems more probable that the 'hybrid' support classes will have different weaknesses, for example a WP might be weak against ranged but a runepriest will be weak against melee.

Nowhere has it been stated yet that meele dps is the counter to ranged, although I am not denying it.

take a look at #10 podcast.
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/podcast/

they also went out and gave the support classes the 'healer' title. :neutral:

[Foofmonger]

i believe the warrior priest will have a slight advantage against melee because of the type of armor they use. its not as heavy as a tank's but its more than chainmail so that has to count for something. currently it seems more probable that the 'hybrid' support classes will have different weaknesses, for example a WP might be weak against ranged but a runepriest will be weak against melee.



take a look at #10 podcast.
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/podcast/

they also went out and gave the support classes the 'healer' title. :neutral:

Thats not very definitive actually. A lot of types when they talk about weak against, they say something like ranged magic or close combat, which... isn't really an archetype.

[Ogmios22188]

Tanks own: Melee DPS
Melee DPS own: Ranged DPS and healers.
Ranged DPS own: Tanks.
Healers own: Ranged DPS.
This isn't fair, as ranged DPS gets owned by two different archetypes.

[heavyhebrew]

Bear with me here for a second. Maybe, just maybe, melee/support hybrid gets eaten alive by ranged. It could be also possible, please stay with me on this that Ranged/Support gets eaten by Melee DPS.

I don't know, I am an American and not used to working with things that make entirely too much sense.

Oh and I am completely happy with being mushroom. Until mushroom becomes rank 40 and becomes an unstoppable killing machine *picture of The Rock*!! Then the whining - nerf hammer paradigm begins.

[Atekimogus]

The reason it dosen't make sense is that your initial analysis is flawed.

It most likely goes

Tanks>Meele>Support>Ranged>Tanks

There you go.



I agree but the "flawed analysis" as you called it is NOT something I myself put out of my head. It's from Mythic as mentioned in their podcast concerning archetypes.

And because I agree with you and think this is flawed I made this post, so that someone could clarify this:)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Nowhere has it been stated yet that meele dps is the counter to ranged, although I am not denying it.

Ranged and Meele DPS under the current formula are soft-counters to each other, not hard (meaning it could go either way). Same with tank vs support.

And people, you need to realize that support class doesn't = healer. There are no healers in WAR, there are plenty of support classes though.

Also an exception to the rule might be meele support. Chances are meele support is better against meele dps then normal support, and worse against ranged dps.


Actualy yes it has, in that podcast that we all know and love :P

And Biocide I agree, but what we all must look at is the armor, of course Mythic is looking mch deeper into that, but lets just look at the armor.

Melee DPS - Light Armor
Ranged DPS - Very Light Armor
Tank - Heavy Armor
Healer - Medium Armor

We know spells make a big difference but as of now we still don't have spell lists.

Now the only reason a melee DPS should lose to a tank is due to the tanks spells and it's armor, which is probably what we're going to see, however we know mythic said you can take on any class and still have the chance to win.

Well that's about it for me, I was going to post more but I think the idea is out there

[Atekimogus]

Now the only reason a melee DPS should lose to a tank is due to the tanks spells and it's armor, which is probably what we're going to see, however we know mythic said you can take on any class and still have the chance to win.


Well now that you have mentioned it. Is it known how armor will affect the damage formula? Does that mean if you have heavy armor you REALLY have heavy armor or is it like WoW where it's more, "Here is you shine plate" and then 85% of player based damage is magical eg. ignores armor?

[Scerce]

Just made a post like this one on the general forum. Wish I'd read it here first. :P

I have no concrete evidence, of course, but I think that 2/6 of the Support classes seem to mesh up well with each of the three major archetypes, at least in terms of their role.

Shamans/Archmages = Ranged DPS (trading off some raw power for heals and support)

Zealots/Runepriests = Tank (like WAR tanks, they focus on buffs/debuffs and control of the battlefield. They trade off armor and physical power for heals and support)

Warrior Priest / X? = Melee DPS (Righteous Fury builds and explodes as you attack, much like the melee DPS classes' mechanics. But rather than exploding in a flurry of death and destruction, it explodes in a flurry of heals and support)

---

It could be that they are intended to have the general strengths/weaknesses as the archetypes they emulate, but to a lesser extreme, due to their secondary role as heal/support units.

Total speculation, of course, and from the sounds of it, Warrior Priests currently do best against Melee DPS, not Ranged DPS (as my theory speculates) so it might be total BS as well. Ah well, it's fun to imagine. :P

[Snuggans]

zealot and runepriest as tanks? :confused:

edit: woops doublepost

[Snuggans]

This isn't fair, as ranged DPS gets owned by two different archetypes.

because the whole 'healer' part is erroneous, atleast i think so. when used in a combat perspective, it feels as if the title means theyre going to heal you to death.

in reality i think these 'healers' actually do different things when it comes to damage, so they cannot be grouped up in one single archetype. a WP will melee offensively, a runepriest will cast offensively, etc...

[Scerce]

Yes, tanks. But not completely. Obviously, healers don't want to be taking huge chunks of damage like the tanks do. But that is just one facet of tanking, especially so in WAR. Runepriests and Zealots, while not damage sponges, share many other traits with tanks as they are presented in WAR. That is, through the use of buffs/debuffs, they help control the enemy's ability to damage their friends, and they also help change up the normal attack priorities (harbingers encourage enemies, such as melee DPS, to back out of melee, lest through their close proximity they buff the Zealot's whole team. Rituals can be placed near allies, disuading enemies from attacking that particular target, etc).

Tanking is about controlling the battlefield and, directly or indirectly, the actions of your enemies. This is what Zealots and Runepriests do. However, they remove the heavy armor facet of the archetype in favor of heals.

My opinion, anyway. :)

[Ogmios22188]

because the whole 'healer' part is erroneous, atleast i think so. when used in a combat perspective, it feels as if the title means theyre going to heal you to death.

in reality i think these 'healers' actually do different things when it comes to damage, so they cannot be grouped up in one single archetype. a WP will melee offensively, a runepriest will cast offensively, etc...
Yeah, I touched on that in my post.
I think it will depend on whether or not the healer is melee or ranged. Take the Warrior Priest, for example. He's a melee healer. So, melee DPSers are typically weak strong against ranged, but weak against tanks. Maybe a balance has been struck, in that Warrior Priests won't be as effective against ranged as pure melee DPSers, but will be stronger against tanks than pure melee DPSers. The same principle can be applied to the ranged healers. Ranged DPSers are strong against tanks, but weak against melee DPSers. Maybe the healer won't be as effective against tanks as pure ranged DPSers, but will be stronger against melee than pure ranged DPSers. Just my two cents.

[Amar]

Judging by this part of the WP's description on Warhammer Online...

Fighting the Warrior Priest
A Warrior Priest can be a deadly opponent, and a very difficult one to kill if you are not prepared to counter both his melee and divine capabilities. His faith is a strong shield, and so to defeat him you must break that Righteous Fury, either by denying him the ability to gain it, or by preventing him from using it. Denying his Righteous Fury means engaging him without letting him engage you – a sound strategy for a ranged attacker – but disrupting his divine abilities will be a better strategy for those who must close with him to fight. Without the powers of his Righteous Fury, the Warrior Priest will become far more vulnerable to your assault.And as seen through the WP PvP video we will be difficult to kill, of all classes I think we will be strongest against Melee DPS if the person playing the WP is able to counter the high damage output while slowly wearing the Melee DPS down, but even then I think it will always be an uphill battle since it will be a hell of lot harder for us to kill them than vice versa... usually Melee DPS aren't very difficult to play while playing a hybrid to it's full potential poses the most difficulty iof all the classes in MMO's.

So I don't think we will be uber strong against any one class but we will have our best chances against Melee DPS'ers, because they are "glass cannon's" so to speak, if we can outlast their dmg with our heals than we should be able to work them down relatively easy compared to other classes due to their low health and defense.

[Vankador]

I think it'll depend on the particular class in question.

Such as a Zealot and Arch Mage are more clothie ranged DPS, they'll probably fall into the ranged DPS categor and be week against melees and strong against tanks.

Warrior Priests and possibly Shamans will be counted as more of a tank class and be better off against melees and weakers against ranged.

[Aelric]

From what I've read of the classes and from people who've played the demos, shamans are very much a ranged class.