Black Guard vs Black Orc! Who will win?!

[pooter26]

I personally think Black Guard because of all his training and skill. He would just anihilate anyone that got in his way.


What about chaos chosen? This would be a slightly better fight. Again it comes down to training vs god given cunning and power. Not sure about this one, but thought it was fun to think about stuff like this to kill time until I can get back into beta. What you guys think?!

[Knifeparty]

Black guard would win, higher initiative and weapon skill mixed with eternal hatred, unless he got charged by the black orc, then he would get owned.

[WarMachine]

I think that its a toss up beween the orc and BG, as a killing blow for most things is not always going to stop an orc, but in combat he has the advantage of reach and skill.
I'd say it would be a 4 to 6 odds in favor of the BG

As for the BG and Chosen, the chosen is a highly able killing machine before he becomes a chosen (and usually why they become a chosen), so I would have to say that one goes to the Chosen for sure.
I'd say the odds for this one is 2 to 8 in favor of the Tzeetch Chosen

[Selendor]

Black Guard pastes the Black Orc, no contest.

Black Guard vs. Chosen...TT-wise, pretty much any WAR matchup is gonna be stacked in favor of the Chosen. That said, it's not unheard of for a unit of Black Guard to beat a unit of Chaos Warriors.

I'd say the Black Guard has the best fighting skills (weapon skills, martial arts, magical weapons and armor), but the Black Orc is physically superior in terms of strength/toughness, and Chosen of Tzeentch have the advantage of being powerful magic users.

From a gameplay perspective...Black Guard strikes me as a stronger 1v1 combatant than any of the other tanks just based on the gimmick alone.

[pooter26]

Black Guard pastes the Black Orc, no contest.

Black Guard vs. Chosen...TT-wise, pretty much any WAR matchup is gonna be stacked in favor of the Chosen. That said, it's not unheard of for a unit of Black Guard to beat a unit of Chaos Warriors.

I'd say the Black Guard has the best fighting skills (weapon skills, martial arts, magical weapons and armor), but the Black Orc is physically superior in terms of strength/toughness, and Chosen of Tzeentch have the advantage of being powerful magic users.

From a gameplay perspective...Black Guard strikes me as a stronger 1v1 combatant than any of the other tanks just based on the gimmick alone.

Yeah the idea of hatred truly shines in pve and 1v1. Your opponent is forced to attack you.


definatley think a black guard could wtf pwn a black orc. I think partially the reason you may think this is you along with everyone else, has not seen a video of a BG. We saw BO and Chosen in the cinematic, but you can only think how a BG would fight.

Personally, i think he would use the range off the halberd and use precision and accuracy to impale and cut through enemies armor with strong swings and deadly jabs. Alot of ppl underestimate their agility. Even in their heavy armor i would imagine they can still move more effectively than a chosen or Blorc, mainly b/c BG armor does look lighter.

Vs a chosen its would seem hard to get through that armor other than through the helmet or impaling them. I really wish there was a cinematic vid of a BG so i could see his movements.

[WarMachine]

Game wise I think the BG should be able to take a BO, they seem to have the whole aggressive tank thing going. Now Chosen vs BG game wise I can't say for sure, as we know nothing of the Chosen's abilities or 100% sure how they build moral. But knowing that they might have magic, and are known to be extrealy tough, I still have to say the Chosen untill we know more.

And even impailing them might not be fatal to such a warped being.

[Freax]

As for the BG and Chosen, the chosen is a highly able killing machine before he becomes a chosen (and usually why they become a chosen), so I would have to say that one goes to the Chosen for sure.
I'd say the odds for this one is 2 to 8 in favor of the Tzeetch ChosenTrue. But technically there should not be all that many Chaos Chosen running around at once... there usually the few champions that survive the chaos wastes to gather and lead there armies to war. In WAR its probably going to be the most overplayed Chaos class and the ranks will be littered with them... so it kind of waters down the whole Chosen being godly powerful bit.

[WarMachine]

True. But technically there should not be all that many Chaos Chosen running around at once... there usually the few champions that survive the chaos wastes to gather and lead there armies to war. In WAR its probably going to be the most overplayed Chaos class and the ranks will be littered with them... so it kind of waters down the whole Chosen being godly powerful bit.
Yea, but that same can be said about alot of the classes in the game (about their rarity). But as random box sales go out the Emipre will likely see the highest population of players. Alot of soon to be chosen players wanna play them because lore wise they are awsome (like me that had a chaos TT army and favored my chosen). The majority of current followers are TT fanboys (like me), but statistically humans (visually) and the perceived "good side" have the highest numbers, followed usaully by elves. Then their will be the rerollers that aren't happy with the class. I'm not too worry about the Chosen being over played.

Though I have a feeling that the chosen and the BG will be at opposite ends of the tanking spectrum.

[Freax]

I said most overplayed "Chaos" class. Not Empire.

But aside from that, Chosen are suppose to use abilities called Dark Gifts, which are spells that are meant to strengthen himself and weaken his enemies. so I would say he's more defensive, kind of like a dark paladin. Black Guard has been said to be more of a pseudo-samurai fighter with big fancy attacks, and his Hatred mechanic is designed to solely increase damage output.... so its a tough call, we still dont know a whole lot about each career to make any real judgement, but from the sound of it I would say from that Black Guards are meant to have an advantage in 1vs1 / 1vsN combat.

[WarMachine]

I said most overplayed "Chaos" class. Not Empire.

But aside from that, Chosen are suppose to use abilities called Dark Gifts, which are spells that are meant to strengthen himself and weaken his enemies. so I would say he's more defensive, kind of like a dark paladin. Black Guard has been said to be more of a pseudo-samurai fighter with big fancy attacks, and his Hatred mechanic is designed to solely increase damage output.... so its a tough call, we still dont know a whole lot about each career to make any real judgement, but from the sound of it I would say from that Black Guards are meant to have an advantage in 1vs1 / 1vsN combat.
Yea, like I said, I have a feeling they will be at opposite ends of the tanking spectrum, it might turn out to be a Chosen's toughness vs a BG's aggressivness. Then it will likely come down to who get the final blow in wene they are both sitting at 1hp. So if the chosen is like that, in game it will defenitly become an even fight. Now, I just wish they would tell us more on both of these classes soon (as I actually like them both, but will play a chosen as a main).

[Orochimaru]

I think BO vs BG would be a tough fight. Hatred does sound very good in a 1v1 situation, but so does the knockdown/stun/kick em in the jibblies style. Assuming we have similar hp and damage resistance levels, then it comes down to 'is the theoretical high BG dps enough to wear them down quicker, when you consider they'll be able stop our dps almost entirely (if for only brief periods) with their superior CC. I think it'd be an even fight, and the BG wins! mostly because I am a biased

Oddly, in defiance of the general feel of the TT game, I think both will have the upper-hand in 1v1 against the Chosen, whose abilities sound like they will be more group target orientated.

Who knows, it's all guesswork.

[Moonbane]

In the black corner, from Naggaroth, at 6.3" weighting 200lbs. The Black Guard

And in the black corner, from The Old World, at 7.6" weighting 600lbs. The Black Orc

Well the Black Guard looks Good with that nice polearm, for reach. And his speed is most likely unmatched by the much larger black Orc. Then again, the black orc is so much larger and his choppa is almost the size of the Black Guard, combined with a shield the size of a small gate.
Now i like the Black Guard and plan on playing one as my main char, but in a one on one scenario i do not like his chances of survival at all against a opponent that most likely could stop a fray train with a single hit.
Speed is nice, but when matched against such strength, the outcome seems obvious to me.

Now what about the training then?

Its centuries of training VS. a lifetime of nothing but battle.
The black orc have the advantage of having nothing else to worry about, where as the political plays of De society is always a factor for the BG.

I would out my money on the Orc.

[Baradun]

Hrm, thats ah tough 'un. if it was just a dim wited Black orc then definatly the Elgi woud more than likely destroy the orc hands down, maybe if it was a War boss black orc, even so ah couldnt be knowin' fer certin.

[LemanR]

on a side note, out of purest curiosity, how about black guard vs phoenix guard?

they are both similarly armed and fulfill rare choices in the tt as well as serving as elite guards (one for the witch king, the other for the flames of asuryan)

[Dracius]

Yea, but that same can be said about alot of the classes in the game (about their rarity). But as random box sales go out the Emipre will likely see the highest population of players. Alot of soon to be chosen players wanna play them because lore wise they are awsome (like me that had a chaos TT army and favored my chosen). The majority of current followers are TT fanboys (like me), but statistically humans (visually) and the perceived "good side" have the highest numbers, followed usaully by elves. Then their will be the rerollers that aren't happy with the class. I'm not too worry about the Chosen being over played.

Though I have a feeling that the chosen and the BG will be at opposite ends of the tanking spectrum.
On that note, I just want to say, that's the #1 reason I'm expecting relatively balanced factions. The WAR polls (which are viewed and voted on primarily by Warhammer fans), show destro popularity leading by up to 20% in average. However, we all know the "average" consumer will be rolling order. Hopefully that should make for balanced factions. 8-)

[Orochimaru]

Now what about the training then?

Its centuries of training VS. a lifetime of nothing but battle.
The black orc have the advantage of having nothing else to worry about, where as the political plays of De society is always a factor for the BG.

I would out my money on the Orc.


I'm not quite sure so I'll ask. Do you think the Black orc is actually more skilled in the arts of war than a Black Guard? Or was that just a over all I think strength and toughness wins out over speed and intelligence, which is fine.

The Black Guard would seem to be somewhat removed from the political system though. They're the noble born sons of the most noble houses to be sure, but they're utterly devoted to their king and can execute pretty much anyone anytime if they feel it necessary. That removes a need for a whole lot of their need for political finesse right there.

[Moonbane]

I'm not quite sure so I'll ask. Do you think the Black orc is actually more skilled in the arts of war than a Black Guard? Or was that just a over all I think strength and toughness wins out over speed and intelligence, which is fine.

The Black Guard would seem to be somewhat removed from the political system though. They're the noble born sons of the most noble houses to be sure, but they're utterly devoted to their king and can execute pretty much anyone anytime if they feel it necessary. That removes a need for a whole lot of their need for political finesse right there.

Heh, i have no illusion that the Black Orc are more skilled than the Black Guard, there are very few warriors in warhammer who are (atleast lore wise), as for strenght and toughness winning over speed and intelligence, i think the outcome of this battle would depend on the BG's ability to keep the BO out of reach, which i think would be imposible due to the size advantage of the orc.

[Thrakkesh]

People sell Orcs short because they're big, dumb brutes, but remember in the Warhammer world, the one thing they do well is fight. And add to the fact they're almost bloody impervious to pain.

In TT terms? Assume they strike in initative order, Black Orc /W Choppa and shield, Black Guard with halbred.

Black guard strikes first, one attack, hits on 3+ (re-roll if a miss) pretty much means he'll hit every round. 4+ to wound, Orc gets a 5+ armor save. (4+ - 1, unless they let Orcs get hand weapon + shield bonuses). Orc needs a 4+ to hit, +3 to wound, but the Black Guard only gets a 6+ armor save.

It's actually really balanced. Considering they're not too different in points (Black Guard Edges him out by like 4, picks up hatred and stubborn out of the deal).

[Dracallo]

The Black Orc isnt a smart creature. I am certain their armor making skills are not that of the Dark Elves... I am certain a clever Black Guard would find a opening or weakness in the armor and exploit it.

Maybe they wouldnt make a quick finishing blow, but to take an orc off its feet might be eaiser.

A chosen warrior maybe not a lil tougher.

[WarMachine]

Heh, i have no illusion that the Black Orc are more skilled than the Black Guard, there are very few warriors in warhammer who are (atleast lore wise), as for strenght and toughness winning over speed and intelligence, i think the outcome of this battle would depend on the BG's ability to keep the BO out of reach, which i think would be imposible due to the size advantage of the orc.

I never really though of it that way. Orcs are born knowing how to fight, kinda like its an instint other than a learned ability to them. Although they are not finess fighter, they are brutal and blunt, not toying with their opponets. Lore wise I'm kinda leaning to the BO now, but game wise, its still the BG.

[pooter26]

idk maybe its just me but i think everyone is under etimating the black guard.

Lets assume a black orc does charge a black guard who everyone agrees is sudden death for BG. I always imagined one quick well time blow before the orc even got clsoe witha massive halberd would be enough to stop one or slow him down. Hypothetically, if the orc blocked the attack or it missed or did not hit hard enough, just step to the side to avoid the freight train coming. BUT if you look at the cinematic did u see how Black orc fought. MAd defensive and had trouble fending off a dwarf with weapons the size of a puppy. If he was charging a BLorc will most likely have a 2hander making him easily suceptible to a quick long attack and if he played defensively, a blorc just would not inflict enough pain, or even touch BG while the BG used quck series of attacks that the Black Orc could hardly comprehend :P

Gotta remember, just b/c hes an elf, doesnt mean hes a panzy. Like paul said they are fed puridge until they go RAWRAWRAWRAWR UOOGHHH CHOPP CHOPP KILL KILL KILL! And we are also assuming that the BG is fighting an elite Black Orc considering Every black guard is the best of the best.

In the game i think it would be a close call. Lets just say im in beta and have not yet seen the black guard.

[Tlear]

Halberd is not a good 1on1 weapon, orc can swipe the weapon using his shield or his choppa. Then once he is in close he can simple clinch/grapple BG and kill him hth. Now unit of BG supporting each other and forming a wall of halberds is a different thing.

In terms of the game mechanics I think BO will win unless BG switches to 1h/shield as well. BO's abilities to raise shield block and chain skills of it will most likely > gimmicj hate.

[Barundin]

In the TT the Black guard would get WTFPWND!111. In fluff I think it would be more even though. A weapon with a long reach that's suited for feinting should go well with centuries of training with said weapon when fighting a relatively slow opponent (but then again I'm not into halberdfighting so I don't know). Though the Blorc would have a huge advantage in strength and toughness. I would probably put my bets on the Guard though.

[WarMachine]

In the TT the Black guard would get WTFPWND!111. In fluff I think it would be more even though. A weapon with a long reach that's suited for feinting should go well with centuries of training with said weapon when fighting a relatively slow opponent (but then again I'm not into halberdfighting so I don't know). Though the Blorc would have a huge advantage in strength and toughness. I would probably put my bets on the Guard though.

I dropped the reach idea, as seeing them sized next to each other, the advantage goes to the black orc, as he has a massive reach without a weapon, then add in the massive size of his cleaver.

Lore wise, the black orc is the biggest badest toughtest orc on the block, but I still wanna keep leanning to the BG just because of his hundreds of years of training....... Then I remmeber that the BO is born knowing how to fight, its instint to him...... ahh still a tough one.

[Tae]

The black orc have the advantage of having nothing else to worry about, where as the political plays of De society is always a factor for the BG.

Seriously?

Who in the hell is going to be dumb enough to start pissing about with Malekith's personal bodyguard?

[MageLite]

Da Black Orc, or in other words, Dis Lad.

You see, 'umiez an' dark elfiez, first I'll ram my choppa right into 'is 'jibbliez. Den, I'll bring around my axe an' cut 'is halberds pointy bitz off, so all 'eez got is a useless wooden stick. He'll den pull out 'is elfie choppa, an' start tryin' to hurt dis 'ere lad with it, but he'll forget dat for all 'is dark elfie trainin' an' all dat, 'eez still just an elfie, an 'eez goin' up against one of da ladz, an' we ladz iz built for fightin'. So, I'll just cut 'is armz off, den his 'ead, den I'll just start stompin' on da bitz dat are left.

An' datz why da Black Orc iz da winner!

[Dracallo]

Da Black Orc, or in other words, Dis Lad.

You see, 'umiez an' dark elfiez, first I'll ram my choppa right into 'is 'jibbliez. Den, I'll bring around my axe an' cut 'is halberds pointy bitz off, so all 'eez got is a useless wooden stick. He'll den pull out 'is elfie choppa, an' start tryin' to hurt dis 'ere lad with it, but he'll forget dat for all 'is dark elfie trainin' an' all dat, 'eez still just an elfie, an 'eez goin' up against one of da ladz, an' we ladz iz built for fightin'. So, I'll just cut 'is armz off, den his 'ead, den I'll just start stompin' on da bitz dat are left.

An' datz why da Black Orc iz da winner!

You took your role play a lil far here in a jumbled jibberish I wish not to despher...if it was in 1337 speak I might have tried. :wink:

[Auku]

idk maybe its just me but i think everyone is under etimating the black guard.

Lets assume a black orc does charge a black guard who everyone agrees is sudden death for BG. I always imagined one quick well time blow before the orc even got clsoe witha massive halberd would be enough to stop one or slow him down. Hypothetically, if the orc blocked the attack or it missed or did not hit hard enough, just step to the side to avoid the freight train coming. BUT if you look at the cinematic did u see how Black orc fought. MAd defensive and had trouble fending off a dwarf with weapons the size of a puppy. If he was charging a BLorc will most likely have a 2hander making him easily suceptible to a quick long attack and if he played defensively, a blorc just would not inflict enough pain, or even touch BG while the BG used quck series of attacks that the Black Orc could hardly comprehend :P

Gotta remember, just b/c hes an elf, doesnt mean hes a panzy. Like paul said they are fed puridge until they go RAWRAWRAWRAWR UOOGHHH CHOPP CHOPP KILL KILL KILL! And we are also assuming that the BG is fighting an elite Black Orc considering Every black guard is the best of the best.

In the game i think it would be a close call. Lets just say im in beta and have not yet seen the black guard.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

[MageLite]

You took your role play a lil far here in a jumbled jibberish I wish not to despher...if it was in 1337 speak I might have tried. :wink:

Okay, for those not learned in the art of speaking orcish:

The Black Orc, or in other words, me.

You see, humans and dark elves, first I'll ram my choppa right into his genitals. Then, I'll bring around my axe and cut his halberd's head off, so all he's got is a useless wooden stick. He'll then pull out his elven sword, and start trying to hurt me with it, but he'll forget that for all his dark elven training and all that, he's still little more than an elf, and he's going up against an orc, who are naturally built for fighting. So, I'll just cut his arms off, and then his head, then then I'll start jumping up and down on what's left.

And that is why the Black Orc is the superior combatant!

[Kraven]

mhm....

Black Guard vs Black Orc

Mhm, seen from a fluff point of view and lore, the Black Guard no doubt.

Black Guard vs Chosen

Hmm, tough one, im sorry to say this but Chosen would get my bet here.

Black Guard vs Ironbreaker

Ironbreaker is like striking a anvil, so i would suggest the Black Guard to put away hes big beautiful weapons and find a hammer, yes i know, uncivilised, but hey, if it works.

Black Guard vs KotBS

Thats kinda obvious, the KotBS wouldnt even find hes sword before he was dead.

Black Guard vs Swordmaster

Pretty much equal, though i do think the calmness and controle of the swordmaster would win in the end.

XD

[pooter26]

boo you guys are dissapointing me, almost enough to make me want to play chosen like i had originally planned seeing as they are the best ; /

[makae]

Black orc...enough said

[pooter26]

boo you guys are dissapointing me, almost enough to make me want to play chosen like i had originally planned seeing as they are the best ; /

[Lehosh]

On that note, I just want to say, that's the #1 reason I'm expecting relatively balanced factions. The WAR polls (which are viewed and voted on primarily by Warhammer fans), show destro popularity leading by up to 20% in average. However, we all know the "average" consumer will be rolling order. Hopefully that should make for balanced factions.

I wonder how this will affect player skill... will TT fanboys be more skilled at the MMO than the general population?

I'm just reminded of the imbalance in WOW (which was dominated by Alliance) and how that had the interesting side-effect of making the Horde more skilled as individuals (having to do more with less gear/people etc). It always seemed like Alliance had the best raid gear, but got rolled a lot in PVP vs. prefabs.

[WarMachine]

I wonder how this will affect player skill... will TT fanboys be more skilled at the MMO than the general population?

I'm just reminded of the imbalance in WOW (which was dominated by Alliance) and how that had the interesting side-effect of making the Horde more skilled as individuals (having to do more with less gear/people etc). It always seemed like Alliance had the best raid gear, but got rolled a lot in PVP vs. prefabs.
I don't think it was more skilled horde players, I think it was just that the alliance is so big, you have a high crappy player rato, and you always get crappy players in the alliance side of BGs. I would do it with groups on alliance side, and made life so much easier, as it seemed that it took only a few crappy PvPers to ruin the entire BG. Most of the crappy alliance players are only there for their one token. Those players would always go akf, or just wanna give up if the score was tied. But I've seen that happen on both sides, it was just more likely on alliance.

[Moonbane]

idk maybe its just me but i think everyone is under etimating the black guard.

Lets assume a black orc does charge a black guard who everyone agrees is sudden death for BG. I always imagined one quick well time blow before the orc even got clsoe witha massive halberd would be enough to stop one or slow him down. Hypothetically, if the orc blocked the attack or it missed or did not hit hard enough, just step to the side to avoid the freight train coming. BUT if you look at the cinematic did u see how Black orc fought. MAd defensive and had trouble fending off a dwarf with weapons the size of a puppy. If he was charging a BLorc will most likely have a 2hander making him easily suceptible to a quick long attack and if he played defensively, a blorc just would not inflict enough pain, or even touch BG while the BG used quck series of attacks that the Black Orc could hardly comprehend :P

Gotta remember, just b/c hes an elf, doesnt mean hes a panzy. Like paul said they are fed puridge until they go RAWRAWRAWRAWR UOOGHHH CHOPP CHOPP KILL KILL KILL! And we are also assuming that the BG is fighting an elite Black Orc considering Every black guard is the best of the best.

In the game i think it would be a close call. Lets just say im in beta and have not yet seen the black guard.

I see it quite the oppisite way, it seems to me that most people underestimate the Black Orc, because of the fact that Black Guard is Malekith's elite guard.
And some seems to forget that Black Orcs, like all orcs, exists only to fight. They know how to fight, as a mather of fact, they don't really do anything else!

But lets take a look at the scenario youve set up. The BO charges, then the BG, stand back and thrust.
Now its a heavy halberd, they orc is wearing plate armor, if the thrust dosent kill the BO, then its pretty much game over for the BG, why? i'll tell you why.

After the thrust didnt kill the BO, the BG tries to sidestep.
Look at the models, for an elf to sidestep a Black Orc, he would have to take severel steps, and if the Orc is charging, he have a further advantage of having a tower shield in one hand and a big choppa in the other. No side stepping a BO at this point would be foolish.
Jumping back would be the thing to do, try to stay out of reach, but due to the size advantage, the only way to do that would be to thrust one handed holding the end of the hilt of the halberd, which would be a really foolish strategy.
No in a 1on1 fight all advantages go to the BO, fighting in closecombat with a halberd, against an opponent who wields sword and shield and furthermore have the same, or greater reach than you do, due to a huge size advantage.
My money is still on the Black Orc

[GrimmJaw]

Black Orc all the way.

Can't really compare some spoiled emo rich kid just trying to look leet to the ulgy, immense mass of sheer meat, armor, and death that is the Black Orc.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Black Orc all the way.

Can't really compare some spoiled emo rich kid just trying to look leet to the ulgy, immense mass of sheer meat, armor, and death that is the Black Orc.
hah, emo rich kid my .

black guards are elite, body guards of malekith himself.
experienced warriors, training in martial arts for years and years.
a polearm isnt a weapon, its part of them, an extension of their body

they have trained so long with a polearm, they can manouvre and strike in ways you wouldn't believe to be possible.

meh, a normal black orc isn't a match for a black guard.

a warboss?, getting close and he might actually win it from the bg.
a chosen would kick a bg's ...but well, a chosen kicks everyone's :p

[Moonbane]

hah, emo rich kid my .

black guards are elite, body guards of malekith himself.
experienced warriors, training in martial arts for years and years.
a polearm isnt a weapon, its part of them, an extension of their body

they have trained so long with a polearm, they can manouvre and strike in ways you wouldn't believe to be possible.

meh, a normal black orc isn't a match for a black guard.

a warboss?, getting close and he might actually win it from the bg.
a chosen would kick a bg's ...but well, a chosen kicks everyone's :p

Ive been wondering, what makes the Chosen, such a badass? And i would very much like to know why the Black Orc have been reduced to a sissy girl?

[joe99seph]

Black Orcs are made for 1 on 1 fights.The Black Orc would chop him up.

[MageLite]

black guards are elite, body guards of malekith himself.
experienced warriors, training in martial arts for years and years.

So? All the BG is trying to do with all that training is learn how to fight as well as the BO's instincts tell him to do naturally since the day he's born.

Really, the moment the Orc get's beyond the halberd tip, it's not a matter of who wins, it's a matter of how fast the orc can tear up the elf into little bits.

[Dyst]

Who knows?

No one has played the Black Guard yet, it could come with its very own I WIN button for all we know.

[WarMachine]

Ive been wondering, what makes the Chosen, such a badass? And i would very much like to know why the Black Orc have been reduced to a sissy girl?
The Chosen of Lore are pretty much champions, they are the biggest, badest meanest, mortal unit on the side of Chaos. But they are rare, as the chaos gods onlychose the best of his stock, and grant them massive anounts of power. The only animation to even come close to giving a Chosen justice is the WAR trailer. A tzeench Chosen is a spell casting, armored killing machine, its whole purpose in life is to please his god to gain even more power (possibly turning into a deamon). Nothing mortal lore wise is really on par with a Chosen, well maybe a Living Saint. Though in allfairness, I do believe they are suppose to be one of the rarest units, and are way overpowed by lore.

I serously think he is underestimating a black orc, as they are just as powerful as a BG.

[pooter26]

hah, emo rich kid my .

black guards are elite, body guards of malekith himself.
experienced warriors, training in martial arts for years and years.
a polearm isnt a weapon, its part of them, an extension of their body

they have trained so long with a polearm, they can manouvre and strike in ways you wouldn't believe to be possible.

meh, a normal black orc isn't a match for a black guard.

a warboss?, getting close and he might actually win it from the bg.
a chosen would kick a bg's ...but well, a chosen kicks everyone's :p

agree with all of that but in the game i think BG would take a chosen. I think BG will beat almost anyone 1v1 because of how hate works. And the only reason chosen wins lorewise is b/c they have god given powers, if they didnt BG would anihilate.

And for the Blorc argument, BG wins no question. Natural fighting instinct? Everyone has that and that is just an excuse for Blorc to say hes just as smart as everyone else, and pretty much is in combat, and everyone is assuming black guard will die in 1 hit which is definately not the case. Have you seen his armor, its way stronger and looks lighter than the crap scrap metal orcs use. Even if orcs do feel no pain, won't matter much with a halberd through his head. Just dont underestimate the Black Guard, he is not the atypical elf. Think of him as a spartan from the movie 300. Just normal humans with amazing training, taking on huge armies and beasts from the corners of the world. thats the perfect way to sum up my views on the BG ;)

[Fusko]

It would be an interesting fight to say the least. A Black Orc's bloodlust, strength, and sheer mass versus a Black Guard's training, better gear, and pure hatred.


I'd enjoy to see it.

[WarMachine]

agree with all of that but in the game i think BG would take a chosen. I think BG will beat almost anyone 1v1 because of how hate works. And the only reason chosen wins lorewise is b/c they have god given powers, if they didnt BG would anihilate.
Well, I guess its pretty much confirmed that the Chosen will be a twisting debuffing class. And I'm going to guess there will likely be anti-moral debuffs, which would render Hatred pretty much usless. So if you have equily good players and the Chosen is good at twisting, he will be the victor.

And if they didn't have the chosen powers, they would likely just be a marauder champion.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

So? All the BG is trying to do with all that training is learn how to fight as well as the BO's instincts tell him to do naturally since the day he's born.

Really, the moment the Orc get's beyond the halberd tip, it's not a matter of who wins, it's a matter of how fast the orc can tear up the elf into little bits.
no offense, but the black orcs should be long dead when he gets into that range:rolleyes:.
he will cut and stab him first, soothing him up and finish it with a nicely done headchop when the BO gets in range.


i was talking about lore though, i would think it will be even in-game.

[Selendor]

Well, I guess its pretty much confirmed that the Chosen will be a twisting debuffing class. And I'm going to guess there will likely be anti-moral debuffs, which would render Hatred pretty much usless. So if you have equily good players and the Chosen is good at twisting, he will be the victor.

And if they didn't have the chosen powers, they would likely just be a marauder champion.

Morale is separate from Hatred.

[WarMachine]

Morale is separate from Hatred.

According to Mythic Hatred, Favor, Balance, bloodlust, fury, Grudge, and others are refered to as morale, the bar that builds during combat (or thats the class specific name for that classes' morale), and you are required to build morale to use morale abilites. Or so I have been lead to believe.

See the newest podcast, its the last 1/3 of the podcast. (the simi circle bar over the ability buttons) Or is there a completely different bar that builds during combat?

Edit: Just checked for it, there seems to be only 3 bars on screen, HP, AP, and morale, So I can only guess they are one and the same.

[Thrakkesh]

You guys are way overstating Black Guard in terms of pure skill. They're trained and certainly supposedly Malekith's 'personal' guard, but these are not the guys that stand beside Malekith and keep anyone from even touching him, they're a rank and file tasked with the purpose of guarding his castle.

First, remember that people are 'elected' into their service by Highborn. The fine print there is that sometimes its a political decision as much as a 'chosen' one. It may be a clever way of removing the Black Guard's rivals for when he eventually steps into full nobility, and they might not all be the most badass avaialble.

Also keep in mind that while they're certainly elite, they're by no means the best of the best of the best. They're known for never giving an inch and being bloody stubborn, but they're not the most terrifying--and they're nowhere near the concept of a Warrior chosen to fight for the Chaos gods. Lore-wise, Chosen are rare and utterly terrifying. It takes 3-4 highly trained warriors to even put a dent in one.

Also, Black Orcs are rare amongst Orcs and equally skilled. Read Orc lore carefully--when Black Orcs come in, they tend to take over. They're the 'elite' of Orcs, and the only way to get in a position of power is to be a vicious combatant.

[Orochimaru]

According to Mythic Hatred, Favor, Balance, bloodlust, fury, Grudge, and others are refered to as morale, the bar that builds during combat (or thats the class specific name for that classes' morale), and you are required to build morale to use morale abilites. Or so I have been lead to believe.

See the newest podcast, its the last 1/3 of the podcast. (the simi circle bar over the ability buttons) Or is there a completely different bar that builds during combat?

Edit: Just checked for it, there seems to be only 3 bars on screen, HP, AP, and morale, So I can only guess they are one and the same.

Hmm. Well while watching one of the myriad of videos thats out there, it was the one in which we saw the Iron breaker running around and eventually become the chicken there was to the lower right side of his morale/abilities bar a small greenish circle where when in combat numbers would increase, and decrease when out of it. I had assumed that was his grudge meter, so to speak. Will have to start looking again.

Edit: Watching the EVA vids, the 'circle' is present on the right side of the tool bar of the Choppa and when in combat, seems to have I'd guess numbers appear tho it's blurry and not as easy to read as the Iron breakers. I'd assume thats for fury or frenzy or whatever the Choppa mechanic is. That circle is not present when they switch to the Squig herder or Magus, so I'm pretty sure that you're wrong and Grudge/Hatred/whatever are actually seperate from Morale.

As for Thrakkesh, you might wish the Black Guard to be simple 'castle guards' and 'rank and file' soldiers but you're wrong. Whatever motivated you to post that rubbish is beyond me but it makes you look a fool, enjoy.

[WarMachine]

Hmm. Well while watching one of the myriad of videos thats out there, it was the one in which we saw the Iron breaker running around and eventually become the chicken there was to the lower right side of his morale/abilities bar a small greenish circle where when in combat numbers would increase, and decrease when out of it. I had assumed that was his grudge meter, so to speak. Will have to start looking again.

Edit: Watching the EVA vids, the 'circle' is present on the right side of the tool bar of the Choppa and when in combat, seems to have I'd guess numbers appear tho it's blurry and not as easy to read as the Iron breakers. I'd assume thats for fury or frenzy or whatever the Choppa mechanic is. That circle is not present when they switch to the Squig herder or Magus, so I'm pretty sure that you're wrong and Grudge/Hatred/whatever are actually seperate from Morale.

As for Thrakkesh, you might wish the Black Guard to be simple 'castle guards' and 'rank and file' soldiers but you're wrong. Whatever motivated you to post that rubbish is beyond me but it makes you look a fool, enjoy.
I've noticed that on the newer versions of the UI, I'm not sure what that is, It could be I guess. But their vids of the Squig herder only has the old UI on it.

Here is a better look at one on a WP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYEl4Gu38c0&mode=related&search= It seems to stack bubbles in it, but I'm not sure what it is, but it seems to only go up (stack into a small green bar to the right).

[phjille]

Not going to be an Orc fanboy here but as I see it, if a big bad black orc swings his arm into the black guard and knocks him to the ground he's pretty much done for.. I can almost see it.

In game they will probably balance it, and aren't BO and BG both going to be aggresive tanks? That's what I've heard.

[WarMachine]

That circle is not present when they switch to the Squig herder or Magus, so I'm pretty sure that you're wrong and Grudge/Hatred/whatever are actually seperate from Morale.


I'm sure I am. I just watched this vid, http://files.filefront.com/FJV+2007+Gameplay+PvP/;8641080;/fileinfo.html

And it seems that all ranged DPS and the rune priest don't have that circle, but they do have a green bar. None of those classes have special builders that I have heard of.

[pooter26]

Not going to be an Orc fanboy here but as I see it, if a big bad black orc swings his arm into the black guard and knocks him to the ground he's pretty much done for.. I can almost see it.

The thing is an orc will never touch a Black Guard. Espeically a Black Orc. Remember from the cinematic trailer how defensive he was against a little dwarf (with no clothes). Against a heavily armored warrior as tall as him, we would be even more defensive. Im not saying this is bad, but that just gives the Black Guard more time to kil lthe orc and perform a manuever with the ranged halberd.

[Dracallo]

Ok heres what happens.

The Orc charges at the black guard. The Black guard spears the orc in the chest with his halbeard and attemps to spin out of the way of the on comming frieght train. In the mean time the Black orc beheads the balerina black guard.

...Then the Black orc trips and falls driving the end of the spear through his back and dies.

The winner: Order Faction for having two less warriors to have to fight.

I think a better fight would be between a Black Guard and a Warrior Priest.

[Fusko]

Ok heres what happens.

The Orc charges at the black guard. The Black guard spears the orc in the chest with his halbeard and attemps to spin out of the way of the on comming frieght train. In the mean time the Black orc beheads the balerina black guard.

...Then the Black orc trips and falls driving the end of the spear through his back and dies.

The winner: Order Faction for having two less warriors to have to fight.

I think a better fight would be between a Black Guard and a Warrior Priest.

I'd say Tzeentch wins, I mean, c'mon.

[Thrakkesh]

I'd say Tzeentch wins, I mean, c'mon.

Tzeentch always wins. Even if you think you beat him by killing his champion, he just goes "Hah hah! I meant for you to do that. You're following my plan, I win again!"

People think he's sneaky and manipulative, but he's really just kind of a jerk.

Great sense of humor though.

[Dracallo]

Tzeentch always wins. Even if you think you beat him by killing his champion, he just goes "Hah hah! I meant for you to do that. You're following my plan, I win again!"

People think he's sneaky and manipulative, but he's really just kind of a jerk.

Great sense of humor though.


Sounds like my dad! ....only minus the humor part!

[Feigro]

I'm sure I am. I just watched this vid, http://files.filefront.com/FJV+2007+Gameplay+PvP/;8641080;/fileinfo.html

And it seems that all ranged DPS and the rune priest don't have that circle, but they do have a green bar. None of those classes have special builders that I have heard of.

Every single career in that video has the morale bar (Which is the blue semi-circle with 4 bulbs in the center of the UI). Morale is universal to all careers. However, Grudge is not morale, Waagh! is not morale, etc. As in many cases they work different from eachother;

Pretend this is the UI

^^^^
-----------------O

Morale, Action bar ,Waagh/Grudge indicator*

*(which does not imply they're the same mechanic. the indicator is just found in the same location.)

[Tirath]

Black Guard are the Elite of the Elite, King Malekith`s Personal Bodyguard.
and he uses them like hes secret police, sending delegations troughout his lands for different purposes.. much like the mages of the white tower uses their Swordmasters.

Much like the Swordmasters of Hoeth are the Elite of High elves, togheter with Finubar`s personal bodyguard The White Lions (wich BTW are the coolest Elven Military wing)

Is the White Lions of Chrace going to be High Elven Melee DPS career?? now if so i must be one!!!!

[MageLite]

no offense, but the black orcs should be long dead when he gets into that range:rolleyes:.
A puny Halberd wielded by a puny elf taking down one of the biggest, baddest breed of orc? Not likely, and the Orc could probably take being impaled by the Halberd and still live to tear the BG apart.

he will cut and stab him first, soothing him up and finish it with a nicely done headchop when the BG gets in range.
Fixed :p

[Dracallo]

What is stronger... the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! or the Enternal HATE... :confused:

[Estebar]

Black Guard vs Black Orc! Who will win?! Neither wins. They just do a little better each time. ;)

[Fusko]

Tzeentch always wins. Even if you think you beat him by killing his champion, he just goes "Hah hah! I meant for you to do that. You're following my plan, I win again!"

People think he's sneaky and manipulative, but he's really just kind of a jerk.

Great sense of humor though.
When I think of Tzeentch, for some reason Skeletor comes into mind. Tzeentch is like a more evil version of Skeletor.

[pooter26]

Tzeentch always wins. Even if you think you beat him by killing his champion, he just goes "Hah hah! I meant for you to do that. You're following my plan, I win again!"

People think he's sneaky and manipulative, but he's really just kind of a jerk.

Great sense of humor though.

LOLOLOLOLOL

Its funny because its true. I Picture Tzeetch as the guy from the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain lol, thinks hes all powerful but people figure it out hes just a phony!

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Also keep in mind that while they're certainly elite, they're by no means the best of the best of the best. They're known for never giving an inch and being bloody stubborn, but they're not the most terrifying--and they're nowhere near the concept of a Warrior chosen to fight for the Chaos gods. Lore-wise, Chosen are rare and utterly terrifying. It takes 3-4 highly trained warriors to even put a dent in one.
A druchii anointed would kick a chosen's though:cool:

[Kaid]

A druchii anointed would kick a chosen's though:cool:
Manticores, Hydras, and Black Dragons are terrifying too. But I would really be much more afraid of a chosen of Khorne. Now that's something you don't want to cross in a dark alley.

[WarMachine]

Manticores, Hydras, and Black Dragons are terrifying too. But I would really be much more afraid of a chosen of Khorne. Now that's something you don't want to cross in a dark alley.
Heck all chosen are just as deadly.
Khorne - Brutal blood thursty warriors that blade to blade there is no match
Tzeentch - Unholy mix of cunning, might, and magic, and have been said to be the deadlist chosen of them all.
Slaanesh - These sick twisted killers enjoy being stabbed just as much as they enjoy stabbing
Nurgle - Your face is likely just to melt off or you chatch some sort of pox just getting into melee with them.

Chosen in WH lore are the biggest badest mortal unit. Even to say they are a mortal unit is an understatment, they have no more humanity, they are as close to their god as any mortal can get without becoming a deamon or a spawn. They have forsaken every thing to be the hand of their god.

IMO, it would still take 2-4 Annointed to beat a Chosen lore wise, TT wise, tha annointed would whoop a Chosen.

[Selendor]

Heck all chosen are just as deadly.
Khorne - Brutal blood thursty warriors that blade to blade there is no match
Tzeentch - Unholy mix of cunning, might, and magic, and have been said to be the deadlist chosen of them all.
Slaanesh - These sick twisted killers enjoy being stabbed just as much as they enjoy stabbing
Nurgle - Your face is likely just to melt off or you chatch some sort of pox just getting into melee with them.

Chosen in WH lore are the biggest badest mortal unit. Even to say they are a mortal unit is an understatment, they have no more humanity, they are as close to their god as any mortal can get without becoming a deamon or a spawn. They have forsaken every thing to be the hand of their god.

IMO, it would still take 2-4 Annointed to beat a Chosen lore wise, TT wise, tha annointed would whoop a Chosen.

No way. Anointed are basically Druchii Chosen, but with greater independence and resistance to the warping power of Chaos because they're Elves. They'd beat the snot out of most Chosen.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

No way. Anointed are basically Druchii Chosen, but with greater independence and resistance to the warping power of Chaos because they're Elves. They'd beat the snot out of most Chosen.
Exactly, Anointed are comparable to chosen
However, they are better, because
-They are more resistent to the warping, and as said more independant
-Standard elves are better then standard humans :D:p

[WarMachine]

Exactly, Anointed are comparable to chosen
However, they are better, because
-They are more resistent to the warping, and as said more independant
-Standard elves are better then standard humans :D:p
Being resistant to the warping is not an advantage, it actually aids the chosen. They are fused to their armor, and body becomes chaos. An Anointed would not be immune to the powers that a Chosen weilds, just the Chaos warping. You pretty much have to dismember a chosen by lore before he dies, as he might not even bleed or have vital organs, he could even be dust in the bottom of the armor. You stab a chosen a tentical might shoot out, or even an acidic substance that melts your blade. Their lore is way more powerful than the TT chosen, the WH lore pretty much makes them champions of Chaos, and you have to remmember that the next step on the latter for these guys is Deamonhood.

The only moral unit that really stands a chance agenst the chosen is a Living Saint. But rest assured that an annointed would woop the snot out of a Saint. Lore R/P/S, lol.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Being resistant to the warping is not an advantage, it actually aids the chosen. They are fused to their armor, and body becomes chaos. An Anointed would not be immune to the powers that a Chosen weilds, just the Chaos warping. You pretty much have to dismember a chosen by lore before he dies, as he might not even bleed or have vital organs, he could even be dust in the bottom of the armor. You stab a chosen a tentical might shoot out, or even an acidic substance that melts your blade. Their lore is way more powerful than the TT chosen, the WH lore pretty much makes them champions of Chaos, and you have to remmember that the next step on the latter for these guys is Deamonhood.

The only moral unit that really stands a chance agenst the chosen is a Living Saint. But rest assured that an annointed would woop the snot out of a Saint. Lore R/P/S, lol.
You are forgetting the anointed are Slaanesh followers.
They LIKE pain, they'll smile at you while you stab him.

Meh,I still think a Anointed would whoop a Chosen's .
your forgetting, that Anointed can be on par with greater demons.

So it's all nice and dandy that chosen are almost @ deamonhood, but deamonhood isn't going to help them either...

[WarMachine]

You are forgetting the anointed are Slaanesh followers.
They LIKE pain, they'll smile at you while you stab him.

Meh,I still think a Anointed would whoop a Chosen's .
your forgetting, that Anointed can be on par with greater demons.

So it's all nice and dandy that chosen are almost @ deamonhood, but deamonhood isn't going to help them either...
I'm not forgetting every thing, but I'm not mixing up their TT stats with lore. Anointed only use a medium armor and sometimes a shield, not a full plate. With a chosen's sword or axe, it only takes one good hit to drop them as pretty much anywhere they hit will be a mortal blow, as without the warping abilities of chaos they are still extreamly mortal.

By TT stats they can beat a group of chosen, or even a blood thirster, I'm not argueing that, and for around 280 points they should be. But their lore is week (likely because theirs not much) They are skilled with Slaanesh and dark magic, and are skilled in melee combat, but thats about it. Most live in the chaos waists comanding over weaker nordic tribes.

Chosen have extreamly powerful lore, but also in lore they are extreamly rear, but in TT they are an elite unit bearly worth their points, and quite common in TT Chaos armies.

[pooter26]

I'm not forgetting every thing, but I'm not mixing up their TT stats with lore. Anointed only use a medium armor and sometimes a shield, not a full plate. With a chosen's sword or axe, it only takes one good hit to drop them as pretty much anywhere they hit will be a mortal blow, as without the warping abilities of chaos they are still extreamly mortal.

By TT stats they can beat a group of chosen, or even a blood thirster, I'm not argueing that, and for around 280 points they should be. But their lore is week (likely because theirs not much) They are skilled with Slaanesh and dark magic, and are skilled in melee combat, but thats about it. Most live in the chaos waists comanding over weaker nordic tribes.

Chosen have extreamly powerful lore, but also in lore they are extreamly rear, but in TT they are an elite unit bearly worth their points, and quite common in TT Chaos armies.

Anointed is the Jack of All trades and would definatley beat a chosen, hes not just a dark elf chosen that relies on brute strength. He has great crossbow skill, as well as sorcery, on top of the dark gifts them and chosen get. Not to mention they live to experience all forms of feeling and pleasure and they have warped flesh. Their remnants of humanity show their power and control and will aid them in combat more rather than being a mindless warrior of Tzeethc. Armor wise they are about the same, but chosen are obviously bigger. It is also common to see anointed on a cold one = owned.

Anointed = Divine or Chosen by the gods in this case.

[Thrakkesh]

Dark Elf Hero < Chaos RANK AND FILE TROOP.

That's like saying "Can a Black Orc Warboss beat a regular orc?"

No, the question you want to ask is can an Annoited beat a Chaos Lord?

The answer, of course, is 'hell no.' :P

[WarMachine]

Actually, I think annointed fall under a HQ/lords troop choice, not hero. Did they change the chosen to rank and file?

But, you guys keep resorting to TT stats and abilities. Chosen, especially Tzeetnch, are not mindless. They are still more power, by lore alone, as I'm not aurgueing TT. A Chosen of Tzeetnch by lore is very powerful magic user, and very skilled with his blade. Mortal blows will not stop a chosen, but would still stop an annointed. In WH lore they are escentually raised to champoin status or higher, but, thats why they are extrealy rare in lore.

[Thrakkesh]

Actually, I think annointed fall under a HQ/lords troop choice, not hero. Did they change the chosen to rank and file?

But, you guys keep resorting to TT stats and abilities. Chosen, especially Tzeetnch, are not mindless. They are still more power, by lore alone, as I'm not aurgueing TT. A Chosen of Tzeetnch by lore is very powerful magic user, and very skilled with his blade. Mortal blows will not stop a chosen, but would still stop an annointed. In WH lore they are escentually raised to champoin status or higher, but, thats why they are extrealy rare in lore.

Hero as in general terms. We tended to always refer to characters as heros, even the lords.

Chosen are core choices, they just reflect an additional points cost. (I seem to recall that you can only have one chosen per unit of non-chosen, but that could just be me mixing things up completely.)

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Their remnants of humanity show their power and control and will aid them in combat more rather than being a mindless warrior of Tzeethc
I wouldn't say mindless Chosen of Tzeentch.
They are coldblooded killers, but they are calculating and thinking up tactics behind that big helmet

[Selendor]

Actually, I think annointed fall under a HQ/lords troop choice, not hero. Did they change the chosen to rank and file?

But, you guys keep resorting to TT stats and abilities. Chosen, especially Tzeetnch, are not mindless. They are still more power, by lore alone, as I'm not aurgueing TT. A Chosen of Tzeetnch by lore is very powerful magic user, and very skilled with his blade. Mortal blows will not stop a chosen, but would still stop an annointed. In WH lore they are escentually raised to champoin status or higher, but, thats why they are extrealy rare in lore.

And you keep thinking that the human Chosen is somehow more powerful than an Elf "Chosen". I'll say it again, Anointed are Chosen on steroids. They have Chaos armor just like a Chosen, they have the same gifts and mutations, they're just innately superior because they come from Elf stock rather than human stock. A Druchii Anointed is not just a Dark Elf warrior-mage, he's a Slaaneshi champion who's extremely skilled at melee, ranged, and magical combat.

[WarMachine]

And you keep thinking that the human Chosen is somehow more powerful than an Elf "Chosen". I'll say it again, Anointed are Chosen on steroids. They have Chaos armor just like a Chosen, they have the same gifts and mutations, they're just innately superior because they come from Elf stock rather than human stock. A Druchii Anointed is not just a Dark Elf warrior-mage, he's a Slaaneshi champion who's extremely skilled at melee, ranged, and magical combat.
He's only close to being chosen, he is immune to warping (though living in the waists has efected him), he is granted dark gifts but only those of slaanesh nature, and he doesn't have the same armor as a chosen. The Chosen of lore is grantted imensce power.

As a dark elf, they use the chaos gods, not the other way around. The Chosen is actually being used by the chaos gods, their bodies are warped and their fleash is fused with steel.

[Lord Tareq]

I'm not forgetting every thing, but I'm not mixing up their TT stats with lore. Anointed only use a medium armor and sometimes a shield, not a full plate. With a chosen's sword or axe, it only takes one good hit to drop them as pretty much anywhere they hit will be a mortal blow, as without the warping abilities of chaos they are still extreamly mortal.

By TT stats they can beat a group of chosen, or even a blood thirster, I'm not argueing that, and for around 280 points they should be. But their lore is week (likely because theirs not much) They are skilled with Slaanesh and dark magic, and are skilled in melee combat, but thats about it. Most live in the chaos waists comanding over weaker nordic tribes.

Chosen have extreamly powerful lore, but also in lore they are extreamly rear, but in TT they are an elite unit bearly worth their points, and quite common in TT Chaos armies.

You are mixing up alot of things, and you are wrong in most of what you say.

I'll explain this briefly for you, it works like this:

First you have the northmen and nomadic tribes like the Hung. They are basically all mainly marauders; capable warriors. All these warriors are somewhat touched by the chaos gods, often have small mutations, but some more then others.
Those that are touched more by the chaos gods are the chaos warriors. Stronger and more focussed on warfare then the marauders, their only goals is to rise in the eyes of their god.
Out of these chaos warriors, some manage amazing feats and manage to get noticed by their god. The god, impressed by the warriors achievement grants him amazing gifts, mainly in the form of the magnificent chaos armour, magically sealed to the chosen's body, and as much part of him as his skin.

Now although these chosen are amazing warriors, able to hold their own against the heroes of some other races, they are not great hero's like the warrior priest, the high elf archmage or the dark elf anointed. It is just an entirely different league. However some chaos mortals draw almost full attention from the gods, they are the aspiring champions, exalted champions and eventually chaos lords. These are the leaders of warbands and even armies, and are immensly powerful even compared to 'normal' chosen.

Eventually a chaos lord may be 'promoted' to daemonhood. He transforms into a Daemon Prince, embracing immortality and eternal service as his final reward. These are (lorewise) amongst the most powerful beings in existance.

The anointed in the game is a lord level character, comparable to a chaos lord in power, so indeed very powerful. The lore does not say anything about how powerful he really is, but he is not medium armoured, he has chaos armour just like a chosen or a chaos lord and it will most certainly not take multiple anointeds to kill 1 chosen.

[Selendor]

He's only close to being chosen, he is immune to warping (though living in the waists has efected him), he is granted dark gifts but only those of slaanesh nature, and he doesn't have the same armor as a chosen. The Chosen of lore is grantted imensce power.

As a dark elf, they use the chaos gods, not the other way around. The Chosen is actually being used by the chaos gods, their bodies are warped and their fleash is fused with steel.

He's better than a chosen. Warping happens because human bodies aren't strong enough to handle all that Chaos energy. Elves don't have as much of a problem with it. A Chosen typically only has the gifts of one god, and the Anointed do wear Chaos armor, same as a Chosen. A Druchii Anointed in the lore is on par with a Chaos Champion, a step above the Chosen.

[Veilside]

Druchii anointed are way overpowered on the TT, damned cool Lord choice though, almost made me want to start a cult of slaanesh army just to use them.
As for the debate at hand.

Chosen > Black Orc > Black Guard

I'm feeling far too lazy to write up why I think that, but I'm just basing it on TT lore, in the game they will (I hope) all be balanced equally well.

[Overpowdered Rouge]

This is a online game, not a tabletop....

The black orc will win every time, because he is the closest thing to an offensive tank, wh ill the black guard is like ironbreaker, he builds hatred then does more damage or tanks better, by the time you build enough hatred to do good damage the black orc has already pwned half your life

In the time it would take the black guard to have reached a high enough level of hatred to start out dpsing the black orc he will have already lost most of his heal to the black orcs superior burst dps, burst dps is king, black orc just pwnt the black guard

[Orochimaru]

This is a online game, not a tabletop....

The black orc will win every time, because he is the closest thing to an offensive tank, wh ill the black guard is like ironbreaker, he builds hatred then does more damage or tanks better, by the time you build enough hatred to do good damage the black orc has already pwned half your life

In the time it would take the black guard to have reached a high enough level of hatred to start out dpsing the black orc he will have already lost most of his heal to the black orcs superior burst dps, burst dps is king, black orc just pwnt the black guard

Your ideas intrigue me. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Tyurion]

Hrm, thats ah tough 'un. if it was just a dim wited Black orc then definatly the Elgi woud more than likely destroy the orc hands down, maybe if it was a War boss black orc, even so ah couldnt be knowin' fer certin.
Warboss black orc paste EVERYTHING

[Tyurion]

As a dark elf, they use the chaos gods, not the other way around.
Rubbish. U cant use the chaos gods ull think ur using them for a while and then thelly turn round and say 'hey look at this loophole in this deal we made. Nothing personal mate but ur soul is now mine and you writhe in eternal agony hahaha.' its to do with chaos u cant use it or bargain with u can only just kill it or serve it.

[Anglakhel]

I suspect that in WAR, the matchup between the Black Orc and the Black Guard will be quite close, seeing as how they are both Tank Archetypes and Careers are likely to be roughly balanced.

The Black Orc is stronger and tougher, the Black Guard is faster and has superior skill and training. It will be interesting to see how both these Careers are realized in the game.

In the TT, I would give a strong advantage to a unit of the Black Guard vs a unit of Black Orcs. The Black Guard are going to hit first, they're going to hit more often, and they're going to re-roll any misses with their Eternal Hatred. Sure, it's harder for them to wound the Black Orcs, but anyone they take out isn't going to be hitting back. BG hit on a 3+, re-roll any misses needing a 3+ again to hit. Hits are Str 4 (3+1 for Halbard). Wound on a 4+ (Str 4 vs T 4). Black Orcs have a 6+ Armor Save, or 5+ if using Shield (Str 4 gives -1 to 5+ Heavy Armor Save).

When the Black Orcs go, they don't hit nearly as often although they do more damage when they do it. BO hit on a 4+. Hits are at least Str 4 (6 if using Greatweapon). Wound on a 3+ (Str 4 vs T 3) or 2+ (Str 6 vs T 3). Black Guard have a 6+ Armor Save (Str 4 gives a -1 to 5+ Heavy Armor Save) or get no save vs Great Weapons (Str 6 gives -3 to 5+ Hvy Armor Save: correct me if that isn't how it works).

Additionally, Black Orcs are much more susceptible to Break Tests and Psychology than the Black Guard. As the Black Guard take them out the Black Orcs will be at risk of breaking with their lower Leadership scores. The Black Guard on the other hand will always maintain their higher Leadership scores since they are Stubborn and their Leadership isn't penalized no matter how many of their comrades have fallen in battle. Chances are the Black Orcs are going to break before the Black Guards budge.

Enought TT nerddom though. I'm guessing it would be a long and dirty fight should a Black Orc and Black Guard square off in WAR, although both should have far better things to do pounding on the Humans, Dwarfs and High Elves.

[Lord Tareq]

You are quite correct in everything Anglakhel. :wink:

Rubbish. U cant use the chaos gods ull think ur using them for a while and then thelly turn round and say 'hey look at this loophole in this deal we made. Nothing personal mate but ur soul is now mine and you writhe in eternal agony hahaha.' its to do with chaos u cant use it or bargain with u can only just kill it or serve it.

The dark elves have proven quite adept at manipulating gods. Morathi being the prime example. Regardless whether they actually can "use" the gods, the Dark Elves themselves are convinced they can, and that is all that matters.

[Dankard]

*EDITED for content*

[Horiable]

i believe a BO has a slightly better chance of winning (in game.. enough tt talk..) due to the skill sets that we know it has abilities that will constantly unbalance, knock down, delay, its opponent and the BG is not immune to those either. Plus a BO's attack mechanics are setup as chain attacks so that each successful chain builds up to activating more damaging hits or abilities.
what we should take into account is how good a BO's successful attack rate is vs the BG's rate of evasion (possibly due to higher agility stats) or how good its blocking rate is with a halberd (unless the player opts to go sword and board then its a different story altogether). I imagine a BG would have a higher critical hit rate tho, but the BO would have a slightly higher dps on normal attacks

[Rasek]

90+ posts on a subjet we are all clueless. But im sure we can tell whos the best by just checking the info about them written around right?
/sarcasm off

its ok you choose: BO will win because i like him more!

but when you tell whos better based on their skills, mechanics and system, and considering there is nothing about BG except "HATRED, Rwwr", and we only know on theory how BO works... its kinda dumb isnt it, to not say pointless.

Maybe im just too old and cant understand how kiddies are excited about making up those stats, endurance and stuff, sorry.

[Lint]

Eh, judging by the videos I've seen of the Black Orc, there's no way he hits harder than a BG.

[Vankador]

I think a better question would be:

Blackguard vs. Swordmaster, who would win?

[Rizzen]

I think a better question would be:

Blackguard vs. Swordmaster, who would win?

A very good one at that. I don't know much about either class but I'm damn sure it would be fun to watch.

[SwordOfMyrmidia]

KoTBS would battle both and win......

[Exion]

Don't know enough about Black guard yet. I'd vote on Black guard over the most the other classes though,cept he might lose to some of the ranged classes.

[Barocrates]

KoTBS would battle both and win......

They would both be too busy giggling at his helmet plumes and armored Codpiece.

[WarMachine]

90+ posts on a subjet we are all clueless. But im sure we can tell whos the best by just checking the info about them written around right?
/sarcasm off

its ok you choose: BO will win because i like him more!

but when you tell whos better based on their skills, mechanics and system, and considering there is nothing about BG except "HATRED, Rwwr", and we only know on theory how BO works... its kinda dumb isnt it, to not say pointless.

Maybe im just too old and cant understand how kiddies are excited about making up those stats, endurance and stuff, sorry.
This post, like the rest of his "vs" posts are lore battles, not WAR and not TT. Pretty much take your average BG, and avearge BO from WH lore, who would win.

[Greystoke]

This post, like the rest of his "vs" posts are lore battles, not WAR and not TT. Pretty much take your average BG, and avearge BO from WH lore, who would win.

Very true but when people start throwing in videos and links to Warhammer Online pages that talk about that career then you are kinda veering away from the WH Lore aspect and towards the game which leads to misinformation about the game.

Case in point....Chosen. There will be tons of Chosen in this game, however, they obviously can't be this rare "ULTIMATE warrior except against Druchnii" or whatever in relation to WAR can they? That would be slightly overpowered so with that, how can someone compare a WH Lore career against a career in WAR when we all know that they don't translate with each other?

From a WH Lore standpoint, I see the BG winning. From a WAR standpoint, who knows but at the same time, I would rather know how I can do against a Sword Master.

[Vankador]

I think that the BG will be one of the better duelers though. Probably behind a melee healer like Warrior Priest.

I think this because they're one of the few classes (Dwarf Grudge is the only one I can think of) that increase their DPS the more damage they take.

In duels, your opponents have no choice but to hit you, so classes that increase DPS from being hit is probably a good choice.

[Nosfet]

Blackguards!! Yes, I've heard. Kills orcs by the hundreds. And if THEY were here, they'd consume the Empire with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his arse. :mrgreen:

[Cruniac]

My Dad is stronger than your Orc...

[NoneSuch]

Truth be told it depends entirley on the situation. The Black guard looks like a menacing enemy and a very tough one, with deadly weaponary and years of training / experience. Then you have the Brutish Orc, who's known nothing but War his entire life and is pretty much Muscle on Bone with a one track mind.

People don't know that much about orcs, there skin is tough like leather and they can take ungodly amounts of punishment and still fight - While a black guard for all his experience and training, is still after all an elf who is immensly fragile compared to an orc underneath that gear.

The fact is - I'd say One on one, Who knows? It depend on the weapons, the armour and the skill of the fighter. I'am biased so I'd say black orc, down to strength, toughness and practically feeling no-pain but then you know, I'm sure a Black guards superior agility could give him the uperhand - but elves tire, Orcs don't.

[Moonbane]

Truth be told it depends entirley on the situation. The Black guard looks like a menacing enemy and a very tough one, with deadly weaponary and years of training / experience. Then you have the Brutish Orc, who's known nothing but War his entire life and is pretty much Muscle on Bone with a one track mind.

People don't know that much about orcs, there skin is tough like leather and they can take ungodly amounts of punishment and still fight - While a black guard for all his experience and training, is still after all an elf who is immensly fragile compared to an orc underneath that gear.

The fact is - I'd say One on one, Who knows? It depend on the weapons, the armour and the skill of the fighter. I'am biased so I'd say black orc, down to strength, toughness and practically feeling no-pain but then you know, I'm sure a Black guards superior agility could give him the uperhand - but elves tire, Orcs don't.

QFT


To break it down into a timeline from birth to dead i would look something like this:

BG: birth --> raised --> trained --> stand guard --> go to war --> fight --> repeat last 3 untill death.

BO: Birth --> fight --> repeat last untill death.

Ofcourse this is a very simplistic timeline... all the other stuff that Dark elves do have been left out :D

[Cruniac]

QFT


To break it down into a timeline from birth to dead i would look something like this:

BG: birth --> raised --> trained --> stand guard --> go to war --> fight --> repeat last 3 untill death.

BO: Birth --> fight --> repeat last untill death.

Ofcourse this is a very simplistic timeline... all the other stuff that Dark elves do have been left out :D


I would write it down like this:

Black Guard:

Birth - raised - practice/war/guarding
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>


Black Orc:

Birth - Fight
-------->

Does a few hundred years make a difference? I would think so atleast.

In the end it all depends on if the Black Guard has enchanted his weapon with "PWN enchant" or not...:rolleyes:

[Selendor]

Not sure about the lifespan of a Black Orc, don't most Greenskins die in battle fairly early in their lives anyway? I'd expect most Elves have a few hundred years experience over even the most seasoned orc.

[Faezroth]

Ive been wondering, what makes the Chosen, such a badass? And i would very much like to know why the Black Orc have been reduced to a sissy girl?

The answer is simple. The people that are going to play a black guard want to believe that the black guard owns everything and they won't change their mind about it. Never mind if they have no clue of the TT statistics for the units they are talking about. It is easy coming up with reasons a simple night goblin can kill an ogre if you spend some time thinking about it and let your imagination take over.

I am not saying the one or the other would win, but that this thread doesn't have any real purpose except perhaps some amusement for those that don't get too involved in it.

[Selendor]

I'd say those two things come from entirely different lines of reasoning. The Chaos Chosen is the best man-sized, non-hero unit in the tabletop. That's probably not even debatable, particularly if they're Khorne Chosen. They have a ridiculous amount of high strength attacks, good armor and toughness, can potentially fight mounted, good psychology...they're basically overpowered. :P

Black Orcs are being shrugged off because they're basically brutes. A fast, intelligent opponent is always depicted (particularly in Hollywood and the media) as having the edge over the clumsy muscleman. And given that the Black Guard is represented as an elite, Spartan-esque warrior with centuries of training behind him as well as supernatural agility and the best weapons and armor the Elves have to offer, people seem to give the Black Guard the edge.

Plus you're on a Dark Elf forum. :P Go to the Marauder forums and look at the old "Marauder vs." threads. They're apparently god-warriors who can do anything because Chaos is unpredictable like that. :P You'll find bias anywhere you go, if this thread were in the Greenskin forums it'd be an entirely different discussion.

[Lord Tareq]

In the TT game the Black Orcs have the edge over the Black Guard, but thats because the BG aren't ment to kill stuff effectively. They are anvils to tie up strong enemy units, so the dark elf heavy hitters can crash into the flanks of said unit.

[Cruniac]

I think people are comparing them in 10 different ways...and depending on which angle you are looking from the fight will have different outcomes..

We have the tabletop fight where you simply compare pure stats and abilities and look at what is most probable. We have the RL version what the fight would look like if they fought with RL aspects in the mix. We have the ingame version with game mechanics, two equally skilled players and equally geared. We have the unarmed perspective. etc, etc,...

It. is. IMPOSSIBLE! to determine who would win when we are lacking constants for both of them..

Different scenarios would benefit different fighters and thats it.

When throwing in RL aspects like experience and not feel pain etc the labyrinth gets even deeper.

So cant we just settle for a theme and then debate about it? or not debate at all since we do not know anything about them? :)

In 1-2 years one of the classes may be overpowered and kick the others ..making this whole discussion a waste of time. :rolleyes:

[Fiss]

Lore means jack when a game demands some balance. Base decisions off abilities lists and guessing off what they CAN or HAVE rather than what the lore dictates.

[randiriel]

This is a online game, not a tabletop....

The black orc will win every time, because he is the closest thing to an offensive tank, wh ill the black guard is like ironbreaker, he builds hatred then does more damage or tanks better, by the time you build enough hatred to do good damage the black orc has already pwned half your life

In the time it would take the black guard to have reached a high enough level of hatred to start out dpsing the black orc he will have already lost most of his heal to the black orcs superior burst dps, burst dps is king, black orc just pwnt the black guard

um i think you have the 2 classes backwards, from what we have been tolled the BG is the most offensive tank on the chaos side. BO are all about control, sheild slams, nock downs, holds stuff like that. (which by mmo standers, normally leads to less burst damage, and more sustain damage, think mace speced rogues) where as the BG uses a 2 hander, with long drawn out devastating hits. So the BG would have way more burst potential over the BO, but the BO would probably have better dps.

[Moonbane]

I do belive that when this thread started is was based on lore and not WAR, nor the TT game, so could we please leave these aspects out of the discussion?
What we're down to is finesse vs brute force, centuries of training vs a lifetime of fighting. Imagine the fight taking place and come up with a winner based on these things.

[Dan gerous]

Lets face it. The elves have 1000s of years to perfect their arts. A black guard could slice the orcs neck and return his sword before the Orc has time to blink.
Skill will beat pure aggression every time. The Black Guards are extremely skilled, fast, strong, heavy plated, and full of hate.
Black Orc has a very low chance of survival 1on1.
Plus even if he lands an attack, crappy badly made 'chopper' would simply shatter on a black guards well made thick armor.

Black orc swings.
Black guard parries, slices neck and returns sword.

[Zzulu]

Orcs are incredibly skilled fighters. I'm not sure why so many think they're just brutes.

They are literally creatures engineered for war.

They fight dirty and they fight smart. They have monstrous strength and can rip a man in half with their bare hands. They are fearless in combat and due to their natural ingenuity can suprise even the most skilled opponent.

A seasoned black orc is a tough opponent for any warrior.

[randiriel]

Imo, id still say the BG. Yes the BO has the natural instinct to fight, and has a body "more" designed to do melee combat. But lets not forget the BG is an elf, they are inaitly (much like the orc in melee combat) skilled in magical combat. SO the BO might be a better stand up toe to toe when it comes to strict melee fighting, but im betting the BG will have "magic" two, which will turn the tied of the battle

[Moonbane]

Lets face it. The elves have 1000s of years to perfect their arts. A black guard could slice the orcs neck and return his sword before the Orc has time to blink.
Skill will beat pure aggression every time. The Black Guards are extremely skilled, fast, strong, heavy plated, and full of hate.
Black Orc has a very low chance of survival 1on1.
Plus even if he lands an attack, crappy badly made 'chopper' would simply shatter on a black guards well made thick armor.

Black orc swings.
Black guard parries, slices neck and returns sword.

Black Orcs do wear armor you know...
a metal stick can kill a warrior in plate-mail if swung hard enough, now imagine a 7 foot 5 inch monster weighing in at about 700ibs, clad in plate wielding a towershield the size of a small gate and a crude sword so big that you could sleep on its broad side and not have to worry about falling off.
No, the BG is f*cked if he gets hit even once and if you think about it its likely that he will take atleast one hit.
Think about the diffrence in size and bulk, the BO is atleast a feet taller and proberly a couple of feet wider than the BG, making fighting with a sword a disadvantage for the BG, that leaves the halberd good for thrusting and slashing, once again the size is the x-factor and even with the halberd the BG will have only an inch or two in reach advantage.

Orcs are natural fighters, they live for nothing but fight actually, does this push them to the level of centuries of training? most certainly not. But a veteran orc, of any kind, should not be taken lightly.

[Zzulu]

you dont take this guy lightly http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/orcsandgoblins/wallpapers/images/1_1280x1024.jpg

Black guard would be in for the fight of his life.

€dit: heh, even his axe got piercings

[e0r]

well this is the classic arguement of brute force vs speed and skill.

it comes down to balance.

a brute force of immense strength would overcome most enemies of speed and skill.
but the opposite is also true
if the brute strength is not enough, it will fall to the speed and skill.

since games are designed to be balanced, chances are it would come down to a stalemate since both brute force and speed and skill would be of equal strength, neither would have a definitive advantage.

[Whisperspeak]

Niether should fight each other anyway.

More like who can kill a stunty faster.

[Fistandantilus]

Okay, some good points have been risen, but i think that you are people are missing some big points. Overall I think that each tank will be more defensive and some more dps.

Black Guard: Biggest dps, lowest defence of the 3 tanks

Chaos Chosen: Medium in both, more of a team player

Black orc: High defense, uses tatics and cheap techniques against enemy, lowest dps


I think that overall the Black Guard will be able to defeat a chosen easily, black orc will be a balanced one. To proved my point on the black guard vs. chosen lets look at their skills.....

Chaos Chosen's skills:

Swipe

Basic attack Swift Strike
Attack that also increases your armor by ? for 10 seconds

Touch of Tzeentch
Deals ? magical damage to your target and also raises the critical hit chance of all allies versus that target

Ravage
Some kind of charged ability that is only usable with two-handed weapons ?

unkown name
Single target strength buff with a long duration

Taunt
Inceases aggro to your target. In PvP taunted player does 50% less damage until they attack you

Warping Aura
Slows movement of yourself and all enemies within a certain radius by 40%

Curse of Fear Descreases the strength and initiative of all enemies within a certain radius

as you can see these are mainly group skills, and I believe that is what the chosen is mainly used for.

Black Guards skills:
Sever
A basic melee attack

Blood Rend
The target begins bleeding over 10 seconds and is slowed by 40%

Sweeping Strikes (Spends hate)
For the next 10 seconds, all of your attacks damage enemies within x feet.

Malekith's Fury (Requires 2hander, Spends hate)
All enemies in front of you are knocked back x feet.

Impale
Strong attack that decreases targets armor and knocks them down for 3 seconds (high AP cost) 20 second cooldown.

Spear throw
A ranged throw attack that knocks down your target for 5 seconds and disarms you for 10 seconds, or until you reach your target.

For Malekith! (Spends Hate)
Increases you and your groups toughness for x seconds.

I hate you!
Anytime your target attacks someone other than yourself, you gain x hate. Lasts 30 seconds.

Execute!
Has very high crit chance against target with less than 50% health.

Frenzied Cleave! (Spends hate)
Damages all enemies within x feet. With Sweeping strikes activated, it attacks twice.

Give me that! (must have NO hate)
Steals 20% all heals directed to enemy players for 30seconds. This effect is canceled if you gain any hate.

I won't be ignored! ( tactic)
All damage is increased by 10% with no hate.

Sharp Blades (tactic)
Your Cleave and Sweeping Strikes attacks cause your targets to bleed additional damage over 10 seconds.

Deep Wounds (tactic)
Your Bleeds deal double damage

I Need more! (tactic)
Anytime you kill a target, you gain x hate.

Grrrrr! (tactic)
You gain additional hate for being attacked.

Taunt (all tanks get one of these)
Forces your target to attack you, dealing less damage to anyone else for x seconds.

As you can see, almost all of his attacks are offensive. I believe that the black guard is probably going to be one of the best :-P

[DarknessGuard]

And the only reason chosen wins lorewise is b/c they have god given powers, if they didnt BG would anihilate.


I could turn that back on you and say that the only reason a black guard would win is form all the training, or a black ork because its lucky enough to have a natural instinct to kill. Its just an excuse, and a poor one at that.

How about this scenario, All the black guards in the world vs one Daemon Prince. Who would win that? And seeing as the Daemon Prince used to be a chosen...

[Goosey_J]

I'd have to say Black Orc, despite the fact the Black Guard is cooler.
Why?
Keep in mind that in the situation presented, the Black Guard has numerous disadvantages.
1) He fights with a weapon that specialises in reach. Against smaller opponents this wouldn't be a problem, but against a 7.5ft giant with arms like tree trunks and a sword as big as the monster wielding it, he is at a definite disadvantage.
2) Armour and toughness. There is absolutely no way that a Black Guard could stand up to a blow from a Black Orc. A blow from a blade that heavy from a creature as strong as a Black Orc (keep in mind how strong they really are) would kill the Elf outright, or at the very least maim him into submission. Therefore he only has his natural dexterity to rely on.
3) Bloody mindedness and endurance: Orcs do not feel pain, they do not tire easily and they can survive wounds that would kill other creatures outright. Combine those factors with a truck ton of armour and the absolute desire to end your life and you have a very frightening opponent indeed. Even in though he loses his weapon, the Orc isn't injured by the dwarf at all. In fact he uses cunning to disarm his foe in return and injure him.
4) basically, short of hitting an Orc straight in the neck, any blow the Black Guard actually landed on the orc would disadvantage him. Yeah, sure you've just run the Orc through with your halberd, but now you have the problem that you've lost your only weapon (stuck in the Orc) and you are now up close and personal with a very, very angry Orc.

I'm not saying the BG couldn't win,. but in this particular match up he is suffers from a very large disadvantage.

[HEATHEN]

Black Guard has hundreds of years of training under his belt. He is THE elite personal bodyguard of Malekith.

Black Orcs are giant orcs that have seen a few fights and lived. He likes to smash things.

Black Guard ftw.

[Lord Tareq]

I think that overall the Black Guard will be able to defeat a chosen easily, black orc will be a balanced one. To proved my point on the black guard vs. chosen lets look at their skills.....


Black Guards skills:
Sever
A basic melee attack

Blood Rend
The target begins bleeding over 10 seconds and is slowed by 40%

Sweeping Strikes (Spends hate)
For the next 10 seconds, all of your attacks damage enemies within x feet.

Malekith's Fury (Requires 2hander, Spends hate)
All enemies in front of you are knocked back x feet.

Impale
Strong attack that decreases targets armor and knocks them down for 3 seconds (high AP cost) 20 second cooldown.

Spear throw
A ranged throw attack that knocks down your target for 5 seconds and disarms you for 10 seconds, or until you reach your target.

For Malekith! (Spends Hate)
Increases you and your groups toughness for x seconds.

I hate you!
Anytime your target attacks someone other than yourself, you gain x hate. Lasts 30 seconds.

Execute!
Has very high crit chance against target with less than 50% health.

Frenzied Cleave! (Spends hate)
Damages all enemies within x feet. With Sweeping strikes activated, it attacks twice.

Give me that! (must have NO hate)
Steals 20% all heals directed to enemy players for 30seconds. This effect is canceled if you gain any hate.

I won't be ignored! ( tactic)
All damage is increased by 10% with no hate.

Sharp Blades (tactic)
Your Cleave and Sweeping Strikes attacks cause your targets to bleed additional damage over 10 seconds.

Deep Wounds (tactic)
Your Bleeds deal double damage

I Need more! (tactic)
Anytime you kill a target, you gain x hate.

Grrrrr! (tactic)
You gain additional hate for being attacked.

Taunt (all tanks get one of these)
Forces your target to attack you, dealing less damage to anyone else for x seconds.

As you can see, almost all of his attacks are offensive. I believe that the black guard is probably going to be one of the best :-P

That is a fake fan-made skill-list. I wonder why people keep posting this, is it mentioned on wiki or something?

[Moonbane]

That is a fake fan-made skill-list. I wonder why people keep posting this, is it mentioned on wiki or something?

Heh, the bigger question here is why do people tend to drag the game and/or the TT game into this?

Yes this is a forum for the game, but in this case i belive that the showdown was lore based...

[Zedaine]

It all depends on which one chooses the best strategy throughout the entire fight. The way I look at it is, the Black Orc is going to be the more capable tank, being able to take tons of damage and disable his enemies while doing a reasonable amount of damage, of course this goes into consideration on how you spend your career mastery points. The Black Guard will most definitely be extremely offensive, of course he will be able to take a ton of damage and be hard to kill, but not as much as the Black Orc. This also depends on which way you go on the career mastery tree. If a Black Orc and Black Guard duked it out 1 on 1, it would be a fight on who could survive the longest. The Black Guard might out dps the Black Orc and take him down, or the Black Orc might hinder the Black Guard enough and be able to absorb enough of his damage to eventually take him down. The Black Guard and Black Orc will be played quite differently, even though both are capable of being impressive meat wads in their own way.

[Fat Otaku]

Black Orc leetz are da strongest, biggest, ands baddest Orc in all da land. Black Guard iz just elf meat in can, we open em wit ourz choppas and have snack. WEZ GUNNA CRUSH YOUZ ALL! Wait... we fighting wit Dark Elf? Doh... WELL MEZ GONNA STILL CRUSH A DARK ELF! WAAAGH!!!

[The Black Death]

In WoW turns ill put it like this...

Black Guard- Rogue wearing heavy armor

Black Orc-Warrior wearing even heavier armor

Black Guard-Hit Run

Black Orc-Hit Stay..

Honestly i dont know...

[The Black Death]

who Ever Can Say Waaaaagh! For The Longest Time

Or...

Who Ever Gets Fed More Raw Meat And Porridge

[MidNight]

I do belive that when this thread started is was based on lore and not WAR, nor the TT game, so could we please leave these aspects out of the discussion?
What we're down to is finesse vs brute force, centuries of training vs a lifetime of fighting. Imagine the fight taking place and come up with a winner based on these things.

I agree...

when those things come down to it there is not clear winner to this fight. the DE are not normally a large powerful brute force race unlike the orc. but when i first heard about the BG i thought of them as a dog bred for war making them larger and stronger then normal DE. but orcs are still stronger and larger so the BO may have that on a BG but a BG probably has better armor and weapons. when it comes down to training VS experience its a toss up. a BG in battle for the first time would pwn a BO simply b/c giving someone with no training a weapon and telling him to fight for first time againt a BG who has trained for years and years and as learned how to kill and think in combat. then if you move to a BG vs a BO who have had combat experience there equal.

so my answer on who would win is who ever wants to live the most and has stronger will...

and for all the people saying a BG is using a halbad why cant they have a 2handed sword...all the concept art they have one hanging from there hip

[Dan gerous]

I don't think you all seem to understand just how skilled and dexterous a black guard is. The 100s of years of training has made them like dancing blades of death on the battle field. Yeah the black orc can be as strong as he wants, the black guard will slice his head off and be continuing onto the next victim before you can blink. Trained so well that they will bipass armor, make every attack link into another one. So if the first blow doesn't kill, the next will.
The only situation that would have the black orc at an advantage is if he is charging in and catch's the black guard off guard.

[MidNight]

I don't think you all seem to understand just how skilled and dexterous a black guard is. The 100s of years of training has made them like dancing blades of death on the battle field. Yeah the black orc can be as strong as he wants, the black guard will slice his head off and be continuing onto the next victim before you can blink. Trained so well that they will bipass armor, make every attack link into another one. So if the first blow doesn't kill, the next will.
The only situation that would have the black orc at an advantage is if he is charging in and catch's the black guard off guard.

only problem with the last thing you said is that if a BG is trained for 100s of years like you said first then he wouldnt be able to be cought off guard.

[Dan gerous]

only problem with the last thing you said is that if a BG is trained for 100s of years like you said first then he wouldnt be able to be cought off guard.

You have to give the orc fan boys hope ey. =) Poor them.

[Moonbane]

You have to give the orc fan boys hope ey. =) Poor them.

Please don't post things like this, it could result in a very nasty flame war instead of staying on topic.

I belive that the BO is very underestimated in this thread, generally most people have no idea who the black orcs are, where they come from and what they a capable of.
No Black orcs are NOT just big orcs with darker skin, they were created by the Chaos Dwarfs as a slave race, but ended up almost destroying the CD capitol before wandering of to the west. but that should be the topic of another thread and will not be mentioned further in this post.

I can't pick a winner between these or rather at this point i wont.

[8igdave]

made by chaos dwafs? There were dwafs in chaos? cool lol. I know nothign about warhammer :)

what did they do? surely they didn't fight along side the chosens

[Vit]

made by chaos dwafs? There were dwafs in chaos? cool lol. I know nothign about warhammer :)

what did they do? surely they didn't fight along side the chosens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Dwarfs

[Vit]

Black Guard has hundreds of years of training under his belt. He is THE elite personal bodyguard of Malekith.

Black Orcs are giant orcs that have seen a few fights and lived. He likes to smash things.

Black Guard ftw.

However I am gonna play BG.. but.. how do you think how long BO lives? For example one like this: http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/images/orc_gobin_warboss.jpg

[Vit]

OK OK, even all discussion is interesting - let's put some characters into the fight :)

Black Orc side will put Grimgor Ironhide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimgor_Ironhide) into da fight :rolleyes:
As a reserve fighter Morglum Necksnapper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morglum_Necksnapper) can be good enough ;)

Who's gonna fight on the Black Guard side? Any volunteer?

[8igdave]

no pictures? lol. Blates who ever looks the most badass wins.

[Moonbane]

OK OK, even all discussion is interesting - let's put some characters into the fight :)

Black Orc side will put Grimgor Ironhide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimgor_Ironhide) into da fight :rolleyes:
As a reserve fighter Morglum Necksnapper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morglum_Necksnapper) can be good enough ;)

Who's gonna fight on the Black Guard side? Any volunteer?

Kouran, the captain of the black guard, is the only known bg i think (could be wrong though) It seems that the Black Guard remains faceless, as they are enforcers of the Witch Kings wrath/will more so than "stand alone" warriors.

[Confabulation]

Bigger damage means nothing when you're rolling around on the ground holding your jibblies.

[Moonbane]

Bigger damage means nothing when you're rolling around on the ground holding your jibblies.

you wont be holding them, you'll be crawling around, screaming in pain, looking for the remains.

[Sladex]

Black Guards:
Martial art masters who train every single day but only get to use his superior skills once in a blue moon.

Black Orc:
Rowdy battle harden street fighters who get into fights every now and then and would use any means necessary just to bring down their opponents.

So who do you think would win?

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

Black Guards:
Martial art masters who train every single day but only get to use his superior skills once in a blue moon.

Black Orc:
Rowdy battle harden street fighters who get into fights every now and then and would use any means necessary just to bring down their opponents.

So who do you think would win?


Except for the fact that the vile Druchii would also use any means at their disposal (much like we Aesanar), you have a very good point. Even one day of actual battle experience would be far more valuable than months of training...

[Dyst]

Except for the fact that the vile Druchii would also use any means at their disposal (much like we Aesanar), you have a very good point. Even one day of actual battle experience would be far more valuable than months of training...
He doesn't have a point at all, the Dark Elves are at a continuous war against High Elves. Black Guards simply have more experience.

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

He doesn't have a point at all, the Dark Elves are at a continuous war against High Elves. Black Guards simply have more experience.

As I see it, the war is not continuous - it's hitherto been fairly sporadic, with large invasions of each homeland (mostly of Ulthuan) resulting in large battles where large numbers of the invading force were wiped out. Though, now that I think about it, the survivors of these incursions would likely be the guys who became black guards... Ignore my last post, I may have been a bit hasty in commenting. :mrgreen:

[Harlenski]

As has been mentioned it is mostly a matter of skill vs what can only be described as orkyness. In my view its a fairly even match but the different fighting styles will be an important factor; the orc isnt bothered too much about self preservation and the only real reason it will defend itself is so that it can live longer to smash the hell out of its enemy, the Black guard is a dark elf and self preservation seems (from what I've seen) to be high on its priorities so this can work in two ways:

1) The orc becomes too orkish and aggressive, loses the chain of offensives and is cut up slowly by the BG's superior technique.

2) The offensive strikes of the orc are too powerful for the BG to defend against and it is hammered swiftly into a delicious paté

Of course that is just how I see it and many are saying that the orc is more defensive than offensive which I cant quite imagine. A last important factor I think is that when the orc virtually fights to die it must be pretty good to survive in order to gain experience.

[Moonbane]

As has been mentioned it is mostly

Of course that is just how I see it and many are saying that the orc is more defensive than offensive which I cant quite imagine. A last important factor I think is that when the orc virtually fights to die it must be pretty good to survive in order to gain experience.

Thats because they compare to the WAR Black Orc, not the lore.
As ive mentioned several times at this point, this isnt about either WAR or the tt game, this battle is strictly lore based and should be viewed as such.

[Vit]

Thats because they compare to the WAR Black Orc, not the lore.
As ive mentioned several times at this point, this isnt about either WAR or the tt game, this battle is strictly lore based and should be viewed as such.

Yes, so let me re-enter (for folks who still think BG can win) characters into the fight :)

Black Orc side will put Grimgor Ironhide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimgor_Ironhide) into da fight :rolleyes:
As a reserve fighter Morglum Necksnapper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morglum_Necksnapper) can be good enough ;)

Who's gonna fight on the Black Guard side? Any volunteer?

[Sladex]

Yes, so let me re-enter (for folks who still think BG can win) characters into the fight :)

Black Orc side will put Grimgor Ironhide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimgor_Ironhide) into da fight :rolleyes:
As a reserve fighter Morglum Necksnapper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morglum_Necksnapper) can be good enough ;)

Who's gonna fight on the Black Guard side? Any volunteer?

my vote goes to Grimgor Ironhide. He's, according to WAR lore, the greatest Black Orc warrior ever lived and during Storm of Chaos he even defeated Archaon the greatest Chaos Lord in single combat.

[iCanada]

Yes, so let me re-enter (for folks who still think BG can win) characters into the fight :)

Black Orc side will put Grimgor Ironhide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimgor_Ironhide) into da fight :rolleyes:
As a reserve fighter Morglum Necksnapper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morglum_Necksnapper) can be good enough ;)

Who's gonna fight on the Black Guard side? Any volunteer?

There are no BG lore figures; they dont fight for personal glory, they fight for Malekith.

[Vit]

There are no BG lore figures; they dont fight for personal glory, they fight for Malekith.

This topic isn't about "for what they fight". OP asked who will win. And I don't see many guys in the lore who can win with Grimgor (who is obviously Black Orc)..

I read also in this thread many opinions of people, and they wanted to prove that BG can defeat BO. Sorry, but personally I don't see BG who can defeat the biggest Black Orcs in the lore :)

[Dyst]

This topic isn't about "for what they fight". OP asked who will win. And I don't see many guys in the lore who can win with Grimgor (who is obviously Black Orc)..

I read also in this thread many opinions of people, and they wanted to prove that BG can defeat BO. Sorry, but personally I don't see BG who can defeat the biggest Black Orcs in the lore :)
Possibly Kouran, but we really have no way of telling...

[iCanada]

This topic isn't about "for what they fight". OP asked who will win. And I don't see many guys in the lore who can win with Grimgor (who is obviously Black Orc)..

I read also in this thread many opinions of people, and they wanted to prove that BG can defeat BO. Sorry, but personally I don't see BG who can defeat the biggest Black Orcs in the lore :)

Well thats exactly my point; that is because none of the black guard have ever had to do something heroic like that. There simply is no BG lore figure that you can faceoff in a badass looks competition!

[Moonbane]

Well thats exactly my point; that is because none of the black guard have ever had to do something heroic like that. There simply is no BG lore figure that you can faceoff in a badass looks competition!

Well this is not a competition about looks or a battle between special characters.

[iCanada]

Well this is not a competition about looks or a battle between special characters.

Tell that to vit.

I was telling vit that there are no "above average" pwn heros for the black guard like there is for the black orc.

[sithborn]

Tell that to vit.

I was telling vit that there are no "above average" pwn heros for the black guard like there is for the black orc.

I'm looking forward to seeing how mythic deals with that in game since i hope every class will be able to talk to someone of there class who is noteworthy in the lore(maby they are the trainers at higher level or somthing) . So who are classes like the black guard going to meet if there are none.

[Gemini]

I'm looking forward to seeing how mythic deals with that in game since i hope every class will be able to talk to someone of there class who is noteworthy in the lore(maby they are the trainers at higher level or somthing) . So who are classes like the black guard going to meet if there are none.

Well, someone has to train them to be bodyguards in the lore, so probably whoever that is. Maybe it's Malekith...

[Moonbane]

Well, someone has to train them to be bodyguards in the lore, so probably whoever that is. Maybe it's Malekith...

Kouran, the captain of the black guard, would be a good guess. To my knowledge hes the only named BG in the lore, therefore there should be a reasonable chance that hes in there somewhere.

[Vankador]

There is no such thing as wasted emotions.

[Gemini]

There is no such thing as wasted emotions.

Wait, what?

[Delolith]

Kouran, the captain of the black guard, would be a good guess. To my knowledge hes the only named BG in the lore, therefore there should be a reasonable chance that hes in there somewhere.

Isn't Kouran dead? Chopped into 2 pieces by Tyrion? And btw the Storm of Chaos campaign never happened according to GW. All the summer campaign events will not be included in any lore for the setting. And that is why Eltharion the Grim is returned to his previous state, not the state where he is a blind Swordmaster that wounded Malekith. Ahhh and according to this Archaon never failed miserably the Storm of Chaos campaign. So your Orc general never won against Archaon...sad but true since GW wants it like this...

Delolith

[Selendor]

Isn't Kouran dead? Chopped into 2 pieces by Tyrion?

Seeing as how Kouran is supposedly going to be appearing as a hero or lord choice for the 7th Edition Dark Elves, I think they may have retconned that bit of fluff.

[Moonbane]

Isn't Kouran dead? Chopped into 2 pieces by Tyrion?

Delolith

I seem to have missed this, when did this happen?

[Delolith]

Seeing as how Kouran is supposedly going to be appearing as a hero or lord choice for the 7th Edition Dark Elves, I think they may have retconned that bit of fluff.

Let's see if he is in when the army book is out and guess we will understand whether they took this happening back or not...

Delolith