good fantasy books

[Festo]

yea like the title says what good fantasy books have you guys read im currently out of new books to read :(

if you wanna reccomend me some i like anything not related to our own world i find reading about our world boring and if it has dwarfs its a +

[Rowhin]

It doesn't really have a Dwarf per se, but you should really read George R.R. Martin's series "A Song of Ice and Fire". It is certainly my most favourite series as of now.
I also recommend "The Black Jewels Trilogy" by Anne Bishop, if you are looking for something more dark and mature.

[Festo]

i read an exerpt for the first book of the ice and fire series it looks interesting as far as it goes

do those dire wolves play more of a part ? they sound really interesting :D

[Rowhin]

i read an exerpt for the first book of the ice and fire series it looks interesting as far as it goes

do those dire wolves play more of a part ? they sound really interesting :D

Indeed they do. Some of them will make recurring appearances throughout the books, sometimes physically, sometimes in thoughts or memories.

[Kinski]

"A Song of Ice and Fire" series is mandatory reading for EVERYONE.

We do not sow!

[Tirath]

Forgotten Realms "Sell Swords" triology and the triology about Drizzt... awesome.

[Shadowsfury]

Terry Pratchett. I read Thud! from him and I love his humour in his fantasy, a feat that (too) few writers apply in that genre. Im getting more from him asap! Plus Dwarfs are in and they are true diggers.

Song of Ice and Fire is epic and deep, but sucks you right in and creates a sinister medieval world without dandy Elves and twinkely magic. So no things like "And I heal, and I heal, and I heal". ;)

Magician of Raymond Feist is a good novel although somewhat aimed at the teenagers, but I read it when I was fourteen and loved it, though three years later it doesnt have the same appeal as it did back then.

Ian Graham with Monument is a very good novel for a new fantasy author. More brute than the average fantasy novel and less complex but a joy to read.

[Vegetta]

95% (maybe as much as 99%) of fantasy novels are derivative, unoriginal and just plain lousy. Very rare is the book that has good prose, good plot and good character development.

Good books with stunties? - well Gotrex and Felix would be my first choice tho they suffer a bit in the prose department.

For an example of fantasy that can actually be will written and original I would recommend Perdido Street Station or The Scar by China Mieville.

[Ralzar]

Have to echo Song Of Ice and Fire.

And for people who like that, try out "The Lies Of Locke Lamora" by Scott Lynch and "The Darkness That Comes Before" by R Scott Bakker.

[Kinski]

If you like the Norscans, you'll love House Greyjoy! :D

[Axxar]

If you see an Ed Greenwood book - run.

[Ryuuku]

If you're new to fantasy you may want to hold out on aSoIF because if it's your first fantasy series then every other fantasy series you read after it will completely suck.

Since enough has been said about aSoIF I'll also go ahead and recommend Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, Glen Cook's The Black Company, and Robin Hobbs's The Farseer Trilogy.

I'm not a huge fan of fantasy since most of the series are just so completely unoriginal and boring, but these four series are all completely amazing. aSoIF deffinitely being my favorite. Seriously, by the third book you'll be completely unable to put the series down since your jaw will be dropped to the floor the entire time you're reading it.

[Kinski]

Definitely. And you'll pray that George R R Martin lives to finish the damn series already.

[Ryuuku]

Definitely. And you'll pray that George R R Martin lives to finish the damn series already.

That is definitely a huge concern of mine. I mean the series went from a predicted trilogy now to a predicted 7 books. It also took him 5 years to finish the fourth book after the third, and it's going on 2 years for the 5th book that was supposed to be near completion when the 4th was finished. He goes on a new book tour every month and eats absurd amounts of very unhealthy foods while he's already ridiculously overweight. Yeah, I'm genuinly concerned that I will never get closure on the series if he keeps at it :(

[mongoose]

Well since i dont know what oyu have read all I can do is suggest the best:

Robert Zelaznys Chronicles of Amber (both sets)

Just about anything Michael Moorcock: Eternal Champion series <<<< Most original premise EVAR :cool:

Elric of Melnibone
The History of the Runestaff featuring Dorian Hawkmoon
The chronicles of Corum
The Swords trilogy featuring Corum
The chronicles of Count Brass
The Eternal Champion seriesjust to name a FEW :mrgreen:

Stephen R Donaldsons Thomas covenant series.

Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser series.


That should get you started ;)

[Bargad]

Just about anything by Robin Hobb.
Farseer Trilogy is amazing, Shaman's Crossing is amazing, and The Liveship Traders is pretty good aswell. The Tawny Man Trilogy is abit like an extended epilogue to The Farseer Trilogy, but boy it is my favourite out of the other two.

My favourite fantasy books are The Assassin's Quest and The Ambassador.

Oh, I'll just make a (dis)honourable mention about the Harry Potter Books. If you want original,comedic and adventuring fantasy, stay far away from J.K. Rowling

[Shadowsfury]

Since enough has been said about aSoIF I'll also go ahead and recommend Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen

Wicked, Im looking for new novels and that one caught my eye. Ill probably buy it later this week, if it isnt in English at my library/bookstore, which has a chance of 99%. Reading translated novels (into Dutch) just isnt the same, both Pratchett and Martin become tedious and boring.
Ah well, luckily theres the Intraweb! :cool:

[Rime]

I just started reading Michael Moorcock last week. So far I've read the first two Elric books (Elric of Melnibone, Sailor on the Seas of Fate) and the first von Bek book (The War Hound and the World's Pain)

[StabbyMcGee]

Really liked John Marco's The Eyes of God trilogy (Devil's Armor and Sword of Angels).
Great main character (Lukien) and a fantastic read, very grey areas with the characters who try to do what's right, but usually it doesn't turn out as planned. Very nice little series.

[Festo]

thanks alot everyone was getting bored without any new books to read

ordered the first book of song of ice and fire

[Rime]

ordered the first book of song of ice and fire

yeah, I ordered that just a few days ago too
just checked my library account and it's not gonna be in for like 3 weeks though

well that'll give me time to finish the Elric series

[Rowhin]

thanks alot everyone was getting bored without any new books to read

ordered the first book of song of ice and fire

yeah, I ordered that just a few days ago too
just checked my library account and it's not gonna be in for like 3 weeks though

well that'll give me time to finish the Elric series

Good for both of you. Enjoy the series! My favourite character is Tyrion :D

[Dyst]

"A Song of Ice and Fire" series is mandatory reading for EVERYONE.

We do not sow!

Agreed! It's brilliant. And it does have dwarfs! One at least! :P

Can't wait for the last book.

[Shadowsfury]

Good for both of you. Enjoy the series! My favourite character is Tyrion :D

Uhuh, hes a cunning little , with a sharp tongue and I missed him so much in Feast of Crows. I was waiting for him to make his re-entrance. :(

[Ruinx]

I'm impressed to see that virtually all of the fantasy novels mentioned here genuinely are good books. Looks like Warhammer Alliance has better taste than most forums.

Whilst I'd second all the Moorcock, Leiber, Erikson, Hobb, R.R. Martin, Feist, and so on, I'd add a couple of others, both very recent authors, both really good:

The Lies of Locke Lamora - Scott Lynch.

The Blade Itself - Joe Abercrombie.

The Blade Itself has a very "Warhammer-ish" tone, I find, with really likeable characters (even the slightly demented Inquistor), and The Lies of Locke Lamora is quite simply one of the most enjoyable and sharply-written fantasy novels (or even novels of any genre) that I've ever read (as well as being wonderfully inventive).

[Vhagar]

There was a thread about fantasy book rec's, a couple months back with a lot of good suggestions in it. Anyway books/series I would read

A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin
The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie
The Lions of Al - Rassan by Guy Gavriel , this one is a quick read, just one book and not a unfinished series like all my other recommendations
The Darkness that Comes Before by Scott R. Bakker, my second favorite series after A Song of Ice and Fire

To Ryuuku, where the do you get off saying Martin eats "absurd" amounts of unhealthy food, seriously do you keep detailed records of what Martin eats or just pull it out of your ? Going to conventions every month, he just canceled going to Japan to continue work on ADWD.Even if he did go to conventions every month, the is your problem, he enjoys going to conventions and interacting with his fans, he's supposed to stop going to them so he can get his books out at a time that is convinient to you? As stated in his blogs, his doctors said he was perfectly healthy, Martin is overweight but nowhere near "ridiculously overweight". Why are you ing about AFFC taking 5 years to write, he had to cancel the 5 year gap and rewrite the whole book without it, and had to scrap shitloads of his older work, 2 years isn't that long for ADWD cosidering he has also gone back and redone alot of it, I'd also let him take his time and produce a quality peice of work, instead of some rushed .

[Pendrako]

95% (maybe as much as 99%) of fantasy novels are derivative, unoriginal and just plain lousy. Very rare is the book that has good prose, good plot and good character development.
...
For an example of fantasy that can actually be will written and original I would recommend Perdido Street Station or The Scar by China Mieville.

I'm in 100% agreement with this. Until someone lent me these books, I'd pretty much given up on the fantasy genre. Sure, all these big epic series that are inevitably mentioned when people are looking for something fantasy to read (Jordan, Martin, Donaldson etc) probably have a fair bit of literary merit, but I started to find all that heavy prose dull, repetitive and far, far too long.

[Ralzar]

The Lies of Locke Lamora - Scott Lynch.

The Blade Itself - Joe Abercrombie.

The Blade Itself has a very "Warhammer-ish" tone, I find, with really likeable characters (even the slightly demented Inquistor), and The Lies of Locke Lamora is quite simply one of the most enjoyable and sharply-written fantasy novels (or even novels of any genre) that I've ever read (as well as being wonderfully inventive).

Nice, fully agreed on Locke Lamora and I recently bought The Blade Itself, but haven't read it yet. Good to hear my instincts were probably correct about it :D

[kissmequick]

hmm let's see

Terry Pratchett - goes without saying. You won't get better dwarves anywhere else.

Chronicles of Morgaine, CJ Cherryh - (second only to Lotro imo, and better written by far)

Valentine series, Robert Silverberg

Pern series, Anne MacCaffery

Dragonlance books (as long as they are by Weis and Hickman)

Conan books - Robert E Howard. A fast paced, immediate stlye of writing with the worlds best muscle boy.

Song of Ice and Fire didn't really do it for me. Too many viewpoints makes it hard to get into/relate to a character, esp as each viewpoint is only one chapter long. Robin Hobb - not enough going on for me, it takes too long to get anywhere, but prettily written for all that.

Feist is pretty good but gets too samey after a while, same for the Sword of Truth series. The fact that you can guess the end from so early in the book doesn't really help.


I shall have to get hold of some of the others mentioned here, I've been running short myself.If anyone can reccomend the best in comtempory fantasy....

[Veilside]

And for people who like that, try out "The Lies Of Locke Lamora" by Scott Lynch and "The Darkness That Comes Before" by R Scott Bakker.

Seconded, those are both fantastic, Lynch's second book in that series is certainly worth reading after Lies as well.



Since enough has been said about aSoIF I'll also go ahead and recommend Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, Glen Cook's The Black Company, and Robin Hobbs's The Farseer Trilogy.


MBotF is probably my favourite fantasy series, bear in mind also that the series is a collaboration with the author Ian C Esslemont, who's only written one book so far but will be writing another 5. Erikson's 3 novellas are also brilliant, The Healthy Dead being my favourite, though you need to have read book 3 in the main series to know who the character are.



The Blade Itself - Joe Abercrombie.

The Blade Itself has a very "Warhammer-ish" tone, I find, with really likeable characters (even the slightly demented Inquistor), and The Lies of Locke Lamora is quite simply one of the most enjoyable and sharply-written fantasy novels (or even novels of any genre) that I've ever read (as well as being wonderfully inventive).

Another great choice, though I'm yet to read the second book in the series I hear it's better than the first book.


And for my own contribution, I point you towards the single best fantasy blog on the internet. (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/)

[Julius]

Terry Pratchett. I read Thud! from him and I love his humour in his fantasy, a feat that (too) few writers apply in that genre. Im getting more from him asap! Plus Dwarfs are in and they are true diggers.


Seconded! Terry Pratchett is by far my favourite writer because of the humour. I like lots of other writers, but Pratchett is fun and original.

[Arbedark]

Feist is pretty good but gets too samey after a while, same for the Sword of Truth series. The fact that you can guess the end from so early in the book doesn't really help.

Yeah, shame about that :evil: Liked his earlier stuff and now it's just getting massively repetitive.

Couldn't get into Moorcock's stuff really aside from the History of the Runestaff, that was a good read.

Agree with the rest stuff listed, and here's some which hasn't been mentioned so far:

The Well of Echoes series by Ian Irvine, quite original in my opinion and a good read, if a little slow going to start with.

Surprised no one's mentioned the late Robert Jordan and late David Gemmell. Quite generic stuff but a good read for escapism.

[abr4]

David Eddings, Belgariad and Mallorea saga as well as Elenium and Tamuli saga.

The second two being primarily copycats of the former two, but you don't care because Eddings dialogs and characters are always so much fun to read.

I think I've read both of them like 4 or 5 times now? oO

Belgariad and Mallorea are ~ 4000 pages long and Elenium and Tamuli probably 3000. Make that times four and you get many hours of entertainment :P

Best thing is it never gets boring to read them. It's like visiting good old friends over and over again when you read them and I'm sure I'll read them many times more in my life.

[Ruinx]

David Eddings, Belgariad and Mallorea saga as well as Elenium and Tamuli saga.

I have to admit that I have the first Belgariad book and I found it completely impenetrable. I'm told that might be because I was approaching it as a serious fantasy work and that it has a more comedic bent, though. I'll give it another go next time some time soon.

Arbedark - Probably because they're both "okay for escapism", as you say, but neither of this is a particularly original or exciting author, I'd suggest, not in the way most of the others mentioned here are. Jordan's stuff is derivative, needs editing down severely, and few readers indeed have the patience to get through the whole thing. Gemmell writes at a "moderate" level, and whilst he has a good sense of the epic, and is perhaps one of the best writers of "flawed" characters in more recent times, he tends towards the unexciting. Still, Legend is worth a read, and if you like that, his other books may interest you. Can't honestly recommend his Celtic stuff though, it bored me to tears and I thought the hero was a total idiot.

One good fantasy author who has been overlooked is Tad Williams, with his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy particularly, and Guy Gavriel Kay deserves another mention because Tigana is one of the most memorable fantasy novels I've ever read.

[Drefan]

I have to admit that I have the first Belgariad book and I found it completely impenetrable. I'm told that might be because I was approaching it as a serious fantasy work and that it has a more comedic bent, though. I'll give it another go next time some time soon.

Arbedark - Probably because they're both "okay for escapism", as you say, but neither of this is a particularly original or exciting author, I'd suggest, not in the way most of the others mentioned here are. Jordan's stuff is derivative, needs editing down severely, and few readers indeed have the patience to get through the whole thing. Gemmell writes at a "moderate" level, and whilst he has a good sense of the epic, and is perhaps one of the best writers of "flawed" characters in more recent times, he tends towards the unexciting. Still, Legend is worth a read, and if you like that, his other books may interest you. Can't honestly recommend his Celtic stuff though, it bored me to tears and I thought the hero was a total idiot.

One good fantasy author who has been overlooked is Tad Williams, with his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy particularly, and Guy Gavriel Kay deserves another mention because Tigana is one of the most memorable fantasy novels I've ever read.


Damn I disagree I love the detail Robert Jordan went into, ive read most of the books which have appeared on this thread and I love them all but I finish them in a day, but Robert Jordan started it all for me and such a shame he died before finishing his last book, hope his family dont **** it up or all my time reading fantasy will of been ruined.

[Binnesman]

Tolkien's, The Children of Hurin was very good and I hated LOTR couldn't even finish that one in fact.

Number 1 all time favorite book series is The Runelords by David Farland. Great characters to latch onto. I even named my MMO characters after a good deal of them :P

I also enjoyed the Eragon books. Some people love it some people hate it so you've got a 50/50 chance on those ones.

[Ruinx]

I also enjoyed the Eragon books. Some people love it some people hate it so you've got a 50/50 chance on those ones.

Considering they're a somewhat juvenile (unsurprisingly) re-write of Star Wars in a fantasy setting which only got published for somewhat murky reasons, I'd say most people who like, say, China Mieville, or Robin Hobb, or George R.R. Martin have closer to a 0.001% chance of liking them, actually.

[Arbedark]

I have to admit that I have the first Belgariad book and I found it completely impenetrable. I'm told that might be because I was approaching it as a serious fantasy work and that it has a more comedic bent, though. I'll give it another go next time some time soon.

Arbedark - Probably because they're both "okay for escapism", as you say, but neither of this is a particularly original or exciting author, I'd suggest, not in the way most of the others mentioned here are. Jordan's stuff is derivative, needs editing down severely, and few readers indeed have the patience to get through the whole thing. Gemmell writes at a "moderate" level, and whilst he has a good sense of the epic, and is perhaps one of the best writers of "flawed" characters in more recent times, he tends towards the unexciting. Still, Legend is worth a read, and if you like that, his other books may interest you. Can't honestly recommend his Celtic stuff though, it bored me to tears and I thought the hero was a total idiot.

One good fantasy author who has been overlooked is Tad Williams, with his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy particularly, and Guy Gavriel Kay deserves another mention because Tigana is one of the most memorable fantasy novels I've ever read.

Wow you liked Tigana? :S

I found that to be one of the most yawn worthy fantasy books I've ever read. I just found the writing style wasn't my cup of tea and the characters seemed very shallow.

And yeah, Gemmell does do flawed characters well, but it's all escapism, no truely brilliant fiction there.

However I thought his "Rigante" series was better than most of his other stuff (Legend aside, that truly is a good book IMO)

I also found that Jordan "borrows" too heavily from just about any other source.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

While it ostensibly takes places in majority in the 'real' world. I found Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norrell to be one of the greatest reads I've had in recent years.

I especially love the faux history style and the numerous footnotes and little jabs at humor that decorated the very complex story.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

*removed because of an accidental double post*

[Ralzar]

Oh, another series well worth mentioning is Philip Pullmans "His Dark Materials" trilogy. It's quite different from usual fantasy.

[Binnesman]

While it ostensibly takes places in majority in the 'real' world. I found Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norrell to be one of the greatest reads I've had in recent years.

I especially love the faux history style and the numerous footnotes and little jabs at humor that decorated the very complex story.


Sorry but that one bored me to tears. Unless there's some pick up in the action within the first four or five pages I just won't have the attention span for it.

[Ruinx]

Wow you liked Tigana? :S

I found that to be one of the most yawn worthy fantasy books I've ever read. I just found the writing style wasn't my cup of tea and the characters seemed very shallow.

And yeah, Gemmell does do flawed characters well, but it's all escapism, no truely brilliant fiction there.

However I thought his "Rigante" series was better than most of his other stuff (Legend aside, that truly is a good book IMO)

I also found that Jordan "borrows" too heavily from just about any other source.

Shallow? I can see how you could easily violently dislike the characters in Tigana, I can see how the book could bore people to tears. I cannot however see how the characters could possibly be called "shallow" in any conventional use of the term. Indeed, it's hard to think of much fantasy that doesn't focus on a single character for multiple books that has "deeper" characters, particularly the conflicted concubine woman. Are you sure you don't just generically label any character you don't like as "shallow"?

The first "Rigante" book (and the only one I read) is higher "quality", but lower "interesting-ness", imho, compared to his other stuff. It just... bored me. I failed to care. I kind of hoped the central character would get killed. This when I rather like Celtic myth.

Jordan's "borrowing" can be a bit appalling if you're well-read in SF/Fantasy, yeah. I think to people new to the genre he must seem very cool, because he'd be giving them all these new and exciting ideas, but if you've read LotR and Dune, 90% of his stuff makes you go "Hey, that's just X with the serial numbers filed off!", and anything else that seems original tends to be stolen from Eastern Mysticism. I also don't think he makes it all cohere very well. But the man sure could write a lot of words and sell a lot of books, so kudos for that, I guess.

Binnesman - Yeah, if that's what you need, you're not going to find it much "good" fantasy, sadly, though, you might want to try The Lies of Locke Lamora and The Blade Itself, because they're both good and start with quite a lot happening.

PS - Random question, are you called "Binnesman" because you are a man who belongs to a person called Binne? If so is the Binne in question Binne from the Gaheris server in DAoC? (She may also have been called Binne on Stormsomething in WoW, I believe).

[abr4]

I have to admit that I have the first Belgariad book and I found it completely impenetrable. I'm told that might be because I was approaching it as a serious fantasy work and that it has a more comedic bent, though. I'll give it another go next time some time soon.

Well it takes some time to get to know the characters. After they're all introduced inside jokes will start to build up between the character and that's when it starts to become really funny.

It's certainly not comedy though, more like serious fantasy with alot of comedic value, but as I said it takes some time to let the group dynamics evolve.

[NoneSuch]

Currently I'm reading The Last wish by Andrzej Sapkowski - yea the names a bit of a mouthful. It's a collection of short stories, about a monster hunter, Its finally been translated into english and while there are a few odditys the majority of the translation is pretty solid.

Waiting for the next work of his which is due out in 2008 or so, bloody slow translations. I'm enjoying it so far, and while it's a fairly short book I'm taking it slowly so it's lasting awhile. What I really like about it is the lack of Good Vs Evil alot of fantasy is obsessed with. It really mixes fairly tale, legend and myth into the stories while having a modern sense of reality to them which dosn't feel "forced" into it.

One part of the book mentions a Riverboat full of pilgrims being boarded by a group of bandits, who begin executing the hostages demanding that the baron free there comrades which are imprisoned, he eventually gives into their demands and lets them go to save the survivors on the riverboat. << Obvisouly the author was hinting at real world events, but it wasn't so obvious it was annoying.

[Fruitpunch]

Your search ends here..... (http://www.alagaesia.com/index.php/)

[Festo]

Your search ends here..... (http://www.alagaesia.com/index.php/)

lol i have read both eragon and eldest but i would not say that its a good example of good literature but the story is good

although its almost copied word for word from star wars

[lucky7]

Im on book 6 of the sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind and they r pretty amazing books. That series and the song of ice and fire r my favorite series so if u like the song of ice and fire, then get the Sword of Truth. They r unbelievably long so for those people like me who can't put a book down after they start it, these books last u at least a couple months.

[Ruinx]

Your search ends here..... (http://www.alagaesia.com/index.php/)

No, that's where the search for bad Star Wars/LotR rip-offs written by children and published by mommy and daddy ends.

Im on book 6 of the sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind and they r pretty amazing books. That series and the song of ice and fire r my favorite series so if u like the song of ice and fire, then get the Sword of Truth. They r unbelievably long so for those people like me who can't put a book down after they start it, these books last u at least a couple months.

No, really DO NOT do this.

A Song of Ice and Fire is a series of complex, mature novels with realistic characters and a realistic world, an exciting, twisty plot, and a generally intelligent, adult take on a fantasy world.

The Sword of Truth is an Objectivist*-politics-based series of novels, with extensive Bondage, Sadism and Sado-Masochism subtexts, a deeply childish take on mature subjects, and a ridiculous central character who grows in power hugely every novel, is utterly undefeatable, and generally bestrides the earth like a colossus (just like the industrialists in Atlas Shrugged, no surprise there), whilst crudely preaching his politics. Note that the author has confirmed that his books based on Objectivism and designed to propagate it.

If you like and genuinely appreciate A Song of Ice and Fire as anything more that "good story lol", you will loathe The Sword of Truth series. Unless you're an Objectivist into BDSM, and can put up with some pretty purple prose.

If "A Song of Ice and Fire" is Deadwood or The Sopranos (and it is, indeed HBO are doing a series of it!), then The Sword of Truth is a series of low-budget movies made by a guy with a massive axe to grind, politically and religiously, and some creepy fetishes (kinda like the "Left Behind" movies only with more creepy subtext).

* = Objectivism is a form of extremist politics/religion (which claims to irreligious but has principles held entirely on faith) based around ideas spread by Ayn Rand. Gamers may be familiar with it as very similar to the politics/principles/ideas of Andrew Ryan in BioShock. It can be superficially attractive but is intellectually hollow, at best (and appeals particularly to people who share those characteristics, I find!).

[lucky7]

Yea prolly shouldnt have said that people who like the song of ice and fire will like the sword of truth series because so many different people read the books but i still love both series. I think the song of ice and fire is a much better series but i still think the Sword of Truth is a good series. I once had a kid tell me the song of ice and fire were terrible so ive learned not to listen to every person's opinions on books.

Nice post Ruinx.

[Vhagar]

Runix beat me to it, for the love of all that is holy do not read A Sword of Truth. The comparison between SoT and ASOIAF makes me cry inside. I have to ask, what did you think of the chicken that was not a chicken, lucky7?

Also good post by Runix.

[Ralzar]

Sword Of Truth isn't all bad. Allthough you might not want to read past the fifth book or so.
I found the first book to be pretty decent. Allthough the "farmboy with great destiny"-schtick is wearing a bit thin and the sheer amount of BDSM was a bit disturbing (this was my girlfirends favourite book when she was 12 years by the way, which explains a lot about my girlfriend :p) but I'd say the revelation of what the Wizards First Rule was made up for any other shortcomings :D
After the first book though, it starts getting a little repetative. Around the fourth book I was getting sick of the characters and how they never really seemed to work out their problems. They just seem to be going around in circles, with the same personal prblems where they seem to work it out each book and then falling back into them in the next.

[Arbedark]

Shallow? I can see how you could easily violently dislike the characters in Tigana, I can see how the book could bore people to tears. I cannot however see how the characters could possibly be called "shallow" in any conventional use of the term. Indeed, it's hard to think of much fantasy that doesn't focus on a single character for multiple books that has "deeper" characters, particularly the conflicted concubine woman. Are you sure you don't just generically label any character you don't like as "shallow"?

The first "Rigante" book (and the only one I read) is higher "quality", but lower "interesting-ness", imho, compared to his other stuff. It just... bored me. I failed to care. I kind of hoped the central character would get killed. This when I rather like Celtic myth.

Jordan's "borrowing" can be a bit appalling if you're well-read in SF/Fantasy, yeah. I think to people new to the genre he must seem very cool, because he'd be giving them all these new and exciting ideas, but if you've read LotR and Dune, 90% of his stuff makes you go "Hey, that's just X with the serial numbers filed off!", and anything else that seems original tends to be stolen from Eastern Mysticism. I also don't think he makes it all cohere very well. But the man sure could write a lot of words and sell a lot of books, so kudos for that, I guess.

Binnesman - Yeah, if that's what you need, you're not going to find it much "good" fantasy, sadly, though, you might want to try The Lies of Locke Lamora and The Blade Itself, because they're both good and start with quite a lot happening.

PS - Random question, are you called "Binnesman" because you are a man who belongs to a person called Binne? If so is the Binne in question Binne from the Gaheris server in DAoC? (She may also have been called Binne on Stormsomething in WoW, I believe).

Bear in mind its been 2-3 years since I read Tigana, but I distinctly remember that I found a distinct lack of connection with the characters and that their actions and emotions seemed more like plot advancement than anything I could connect with or even relate to on a humane level. I especially disliked the concubine woman. That thread seemed purely plot driven to me.

And no, I don't go around labelling anyone or anything which I dislike as shallow. I intensely disliked Dorian Hawkmoon (the protagonist from the History of the Runestaff series), however I thought that the character had relative depth, with good personal history.

I just think I didn't get on well with Kay's writing style and therefore found the characters lacking in substance which lead to me labelling them as shallow.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

I'm aware that it's all over the place, and the ending has been described as a bit of a let down by some people as well, and it's not... really ENTIRELY fantasy but I'd also have to reccomend people to at least read book one of the Dark Tower series. Especially if you have any experience with Stephen King and like his work. (I find him entertaining but a bit self derivitave. It's like the man is proof that it can be bad to become a genre unto oneself and to publish too many books. You have to be choosey to find his really good ones but I have a personal love of his style.) I find the main character Roland to be both stereotypical of a western style 'John Wayne' and frightening.

[Binnesman]

Thanks to everyone preaching about A Song of Ice and Fire I bought it and should get it this week.

Where's the people who have read The Runelords though? That's currently my "Song of Ice and Fire" series and I highly recommend it. Doesn't have a lot of political intrigue like a few of you seem to be hot for but it does have a unique twist on fantasy, magic and it has a great pair of bad guys. Oh and action lots of action within the first few pages a guy goes a few rounds with an assassin with a few endowments and gets quite literally gutted.

[Vegetta]

Oh, another series well worth mentioning is Philip Pullmans "His Dark Materials" trilogy. It's quite different from usual fantasy.

I read those - they were not bad at all - I am curious to see how The Golden Compass movie will be

[Rime]

No, really DO NOT do this.

A Song of Ice and Fire is a series of complex, mature novels with realistic characters and a realistic world, an exciting, twisty plot, and a generally intelligent, adult take on a fantasy world.

The Sword of Truth is an Objectivist*-politics-based series of novels, with extensive Bondage, Sadism and Sado-Masochism subtexts, a deeply childish take on mature subjects, and a ridiculous central character who grows in power hugely every novel, is utterly undefeatable, and generally bestrides the earth like a colossus (just like the industrialists in Atlas Shrugged, no surprise there), whilst crudely preaching his politics. Note that the author has confirmed that his books based on Objectivism and designed to propagate it.

If you like and genuinely appreciate A Song of Ice and Fire as anything more that "good story lol", you will loathe The Sword of Truth series. Unless you're an Objectivist into BDSM, and can put up with some pretty purple prose.

If "A Song of Ice and Fire" is Deadwood or The Sopranos (and it is, indeed HBO are doing a series of it!), then The Sword of Truth is a series of low-budget movies made by a guy with a massive axe to grind, politically and religiously, and some creepy fetishes (kinda like the "Left Behind" movies only with more creepy subtext).


* = Objectivism is a form of extremist politics/religion (which claims to irreligious but has principles held entirely on faith) based around ideas spread by Ayn Rand. Gamers may be familiar with it as very similar to the politics/principles/ideas of Andrew Ryan in BioShock. It can be superficially attractive but is intellectually hollow, at best (and appeals particularly to people who share those characteristics, I find!).

Thanks for the heads up; I'll steer clear

[Shadowsfury]

While were at it discussing fantasy novels, Ive got a question.

Where the hell should I continue with reading the Discworld novels of Pratchett? Ive looked up what he's written and how they're linked and it aint a small picture (http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2848/thediscworldreadingordeby5.jpg) thats for sure. Ive read Thud! two times now and its time for a new book of him innit?
Im looking at Guards! Guards!, the first of the Watch series, because the Watch was done extraordinarally well and Vimes was a character so well crafted, that I want to read more about him.

Actually it comes down to this, should I read them in the order they are created or just pick one of the novels that looks interesting and carry on reading the whole lot of 'em in that way?

If the second applies, fire away with recommendations I'd say. :)

[Ruinx]

Actually it comes down to this, should I read them in the order they are created or just pick one of the novels that looks interesting and carry on reading the whole lot of 'em in that way?

Definately the latter and Guards, Guards! is by my favourite Pratchett book, so I'd strongly recommend it. Other ones with the Watch are likely to be good. Small Gods is also good, but Pyramids isn't. Personally, I'd stay away from the Witches ones unless you already know you like them, because I hated everyone in them, good or bad, which made them very hard for me to read.

[Torick]

My brother recommended A Song of Ice and Fire to me and has been great so far. I'm almost done with A Feast For Crows and I didn't like it nearly as much as the other 3 so I'm having some trouble finishing. Just missing a lot of the characters you enjoyed through the other books.

I really enjoyed The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, White Gold Wielder. It's a more traditional fantasy setting. I absolutely hated the main character through the first book or 2 but he grows on you throughout the series. 6 books in total. Then there is a new series being started from the view of a nother character and he just finished the second book in that one.

Also Dracula and Frankenstein are a good read. The originals.

[Fruitpunch]

No, that's where the search for bad Star Wars/LotR rip-offs written by children and published by mommy and daddy ends.



No, really DO NOT do this.

A Song of Ice and Fire is a series of complex, mature novels with realistic characters and a realistic world, an exciting, twisty plot, and a generally intelligent, adult take on a fantasy world.

The Sword of Truth is an Objectivist*-politics-based series of novels, with extensive Bondage, Sadism and Sado-Masochism subtexts, a deeply childish take on mature subjects, and a ridiculous central character who grows in power hugely every novel, is utterly undefeatable, and generally bestrides the earth like a colossus (just like the industrialists in Atlas Shrugged, no surprise there), whilst crudely preaching his politics. Note that the author has confirmed that his books based on Objectivism and designed to propagate it.

If you like and genuinely appreciate A Song of Ice and Fire as anything more that "good story lol", you will loathe The Sword of Truth series. Unless you're an Objectivist into BDSM, and can put up with some pretty purple prose.

If "A Song of Ice and Fire" is Deadwood or The Sopranos (and it is, indeed HBO are doing a series of it!), then The Sword of Truth is a series of low-budget movies made by a guy with a massive axe to grind, politically and religiously, and some creepy fetishes (kinda like the "Left Behind" movies only with more creepy subtext).

* = Objectivism is a form of extremist politics/religion (which claims to irreligious but has principles held entirely on faith) based around ideas spread by Ayn Rand. Gamers may be familiar with it as very similar to the politics/principles/ideas of Andrew Ryan in BioShock. It can be superficially attractive but is intellectually hollow, at best (and appeals particularly to people who share those characteristics, I find!).

You did not just call Inheritance a Ripoff! Cringes at Ruinx

[Ralzar]

While were at it discussing fantasy novels, Ive got a question.

Where the hell should I continue with reading the Discworld novels of Pratchett? Ive looked up what he's written and how they're linked and it aint a small picture (http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2848/thediscworldreadingordeby5.jpg) thats for sure. Ive read Thud! two times now and its time for a new book of him innit?
Im looking at Guards! Guards!, the first of the Watch series, because the Watch was done extraordinarally well and Vimes was a character so well crafted, that I want to read more about him.

Actually it comes down to this, should I read them in the order they are created or just pick one of the novels that looks interesting and carry on reading the whole lot of 'em in that way?

If the second applies, fire away with recommendations I'd say. :)

I'd say to read them chronologically as they're written. Allthough Pratchett usually brings you up to speed on what's what, I think it feels better to read them in the correct order as things do change quite a bit during the books and some jokes and referances may be lost on you if you haven't read the previous books. After a while there's also quite a lot of crossover between the different "series" so somthing gets lost there as well if you don't know what's happened in the other books. (Edit: In addition, in order to "bring you up to speed" Pratchett sometimes have to tell you large parts of what happened in previous books, which might spoil them somewhat)
However, if you find, like Ruinx, that you really dislike one set of characters, you might want to skip those books. I've yet to find any I didn't like though. Allthough i can see how people could dislike the witches.

The oldest books in the series are generally not as good as the later ones though. To get the full story, you need to read from book one and onwards but really, I'd recomend starting around "Guards, Guards!" and working your way up from there chronologically.

[Kinski]

I loved "Carpe Jugulum" :)
I really enjoy anything Pratchett pens down, last was "Thud" I think, but I found a copy of The Unadulterated Cat and I loved it. If you have a cat, you'll understand why.. ;)

[Ruinx]

You did not just call Inheritance a Ripoff! Cringes at Ruinx

I'm afraid I did, because it is. Still, I can't be too harsh. I read a lot of crap fantasy when I was 15. This kid did one better, and wrote crap fantasy, and probably made millions, or at least several hundred thousand dollars. It's sad though, because a lot of kids write a novel around that age, many of them of superior quality to that, but most people's mommy and daddy don't have enough spare cash to vanity-publish it on a large scale.

Thing is, when I got to 16 I suddenly found out about non-crap fantasy, and I found myself unable to read crap stuff any more. Which was kind of sad, because when I was 16 (in '94), there was a lot less non-crap fantasy generally available than there is now. Lot of authors emerged in the late-90s and early-2000s, and older authors got republished/revived.

Ralzar - Yeah, I find Pratchett to be very good but very variable if that makes any sense. Like, I love his books generally, but he's got this whole Saturday morning cartooon "Heres the moral of the story kids!" deal, which occurs between 3/4 and 4/5ths of the way through every single book of his I read, and some of those morals made me want to suffocate people. Also, some of his characters god, they LOVE to tell you at great length about how this is good and that's bad and the author clearly agrees and oh god urge to suffocate rising.

Then I read Guards! Guards! or The Colour of Magic again and it's all better. Ahhhhhhh. Especially the Pern-pisstake in The Colour of Magic. That's priceless.

[Ryuuku]

My brother recommended A Song of Ice and Fire to me and has been great so far. I'm almost done with A Feast For Crows and I didn't like it nearly as much as the other 3 so I'm having some trouble finishing. Just missing a lot of the characters you enjoyed through the other books.


Most people will definitely agree with you, mostly because asos was just so completely out of this world amazing and then you get to feast and miss out on the characters you're used to. I personally still loved feast since Jaime and Arya are my favorite characters and I almost felt like I accomplished something when all the stuff with Cersei was going on(trying to avoid spoilers.) Dance will bring back the characters that most people seem to miss; Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. So that's something to look forward to.

[Zacks]

I heard that The Pantheon War was really good, but you're going to have to wait awhile for it... :wink:

[Veilside]

This looks like it has a lot of potential.
THE STEEL REMAINS

A new epic fantasy from

RICHARD MORGAN

Ringil, Archeth and Egar - Comrades in Arms

What do you do when an evil arises in the West, and you stand and fight, and throw it back into the sea it’s come from – and then watch as your victory gets pissed away in naked political opportunism, squalid border disputes and brutal ethnic cleansing? What do you do when, in the absence of anything decent left to fight for, the same internal desperation and rage that sent you screaming up against those suicidal odds a decade and a half ago starts instead to tear you apart from within? What do you do when you’re a hero to anyone who doesn’t know you, and a corrupt degenerate to anyone who does, and nowhere that resembles home can ever accept you back as you really are?

Simple – you go back to the ****-hole mountain town you once saved from destruction, back to where the thin lie of your heroism is just about coin enough to buy tolerance for your degenerate urges. And there you hide.

Which Ringil Eskiath, scarred hero of Gallows Gap and wielder of the kiriath blade Ravensfriend in the war against the Scaled Folk, has been doing ever since he walked away from the post-war mess. Too bad, then, that a family member has come calling with an offer he can’t refuse, a job only he can do, and a chance to crank himself back up to the same pitch of fury and purpose that sustained him like a drug all those years ago. Too bad because it’s a thankless task, not one he especially wants or even believes he has much chance of carrying to a successful end. But the truth is, as he’s forced to admit, to himself if no-one else, he really doesn’t have anything much better to do, right now or at any other foreseeable time in what remains of his hollowed-out life. It’ll be good to have something to fight for again, and if it kills him, well, it won’t much matter.

*

Drug problem, war veteran nerves, general sense of failure and loss? Absolutely no faith in the current ****-up son of the ruling dynasty you’re supposed to owe allegiance to? No family, no friends, no-one you can really trust anymore – and a job you hate and don’t really know how to do? Welcome to the life at court of the lady kir-Archeth Indamaninarmal, abandoned kiriath half-breed, and last remaining advisor to the Yhelteth Empire on an equally abandoned kiriath technology she only half-way understands herself.

A decade and a half ago, she came home from the war against the Scaled Folk as disillusioned as most of her comrades from the faltering human alliance, and with some of the same damage. But beyond that, she at least believed the Empire had been worth saving. Now, as the new Emperor squanders his father’s legacy, as a new priestly caste arises to preach holy war and ethnic ascendancy against Yhelteth’s neighbours, and as everyone at court trades in governmental concern for paranoia and self preservation, she’s having a hard time remembering why she ever cared one way or the other.

Which makes her a far from ideal candidate to take charge of the investigation when a new and apparently sorcerous enemy begins making violent inroads on the Empire’s borders. Then again, ideal or not, she’s the only one even remotely qualified for the job.

*

And then there’s Egar. Egar the steppe nomad, Egar the Barbarian – or at least he would be, if he could just forget what it was like to have once lived in a place with decent cuisine, hot water bathing and clean shaves; what it was like to learn to read and write, and find it not only useful but surprisingly enjoyable; what it was like to fight as a mercenary for the reputedly decadent but really quite civilised Yhelteth Empire, what it was like to bring down a dragon for them single-handed in the war against the Scaled Folk – and end up an imperial citizen in good standing for his trouble.

Those things are gone now, dropped back over the steppe’s horizon to the south where he first found them. Ekar the Dragonbane has come back home to his people in triumph a rich man, a respected warrior and a natural choice for tribal chief. But a decade on, the triumph is wearing a little thin; he can’t settle, his fellow Majak herdsmen are driving him up a guy rope with their superstitions and their ignorance and their general lack of interest in anything but the world they know – and above all he could really, really use a hot-water shave.

Fortunately, Egar won’t be stuck here much longer with these exercises in nostalgia. Rivalries within the Majak are stirring, and out on the steppe, the Majak chief’s enemies have found allies of no human kind. If he wants to survive the confrontation that’s on its way, Egar’s going to have to swallow a life-time of instinct and run long before.

*

These three erstwhile comrades in arms will find themselves flung back together again as the hard fought and soured peace they helped to win is brought once again to the brink of war. Dark, unnatural forces are stirring, an ancient order has been summoned back to life and something very unpleasant is coming to call.

[MageLite]

Terry Pratchett's Discworld books for certain. Funny, original, and pretty wise.

A Wizard of Earthsea, as well. Epic fantasy story, which is not, shock horror, set in generic euro-celtic fantasy land #345!

[Mordeth]

Well personally id say

Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time.

George R R Martin's A song of ice and fire

Tolkien's Lotr, Silmarillion, The Children Of Hurin(Altho most of the story is in Silmarillion)

David Edding's The Belgariad

Raymond E Feist's The Riftwar


Altho i know ppl would object to atleast wheel of time because

1. The writer is dead(died not that long ago sadly...) and didnt finish the serie, however his wife is writing up his notes hopefully and releasing the book somtime in the near future.

2. The serie drag on around book 6-7 and book 10 can be abit boring, personally i didnt think so but i can understand why ppl think so. However book 11 was ..really really good and picked up the pace again.

Its my fav series of all time and ive read it like 50 times over.. Especially book 1 and 2 made me hooked. Fantasy on its best.

As for the other series, they are good series..and Tolkiens books are almost a must for every fantasy fan. There is alot of great books out there if ppl just looked around abit..

And if u dont mind a woman being the main char, check out The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon. Atleast i enjoyed it...

Series that were good once..

Terry Brook's The Shannara series

Terry Goodkin's The Sword Of Truth

Worth checking out even if i personally think the series turns bad after awhile.

Also, being a Warhammer Online fan forum and all..

Gotrek & Felix Saga by Nathan Long and William King(King wrote the first 7 books, Long wrote the 8th and writing the 9th(Manslayer) )

The Konrad Saga by David Ferring and soon David Bishop

Both saga's from the warhammer world...and theres lots more out there. Just check ur closest Outland(atleast in norway.....) shop/Games WorkShop store.

Anyway fantasy is like everything else, ppl like different things. And theres lots of different genres within the fantasy genre, hope u find what u are looking for.

[SharderBlade]

Im on book 6 of the sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind and they r pretty amazing books.

Hehe, that serious goes to t, although the first couple books were good, at least they were when I was 14. ;)

Eragon definitly felt that it was written by a "kid," and the plot was rather unoriginal, but I enjoyed them none-the-less.

Song of Ice and Fire pwns, except he keeps on killing off cool characters.

[Nerissa]

I'm more of a sci-fi fan.

A cheesy sci-fi fan.


The kind of sci-fi that makes you think of Flash Gordon, Buck Rodgers, and the old Star Trek show.


And I don't make any bones about it. Some of the stuff I read some people would probably hate. But that doesn't bother me because I read for my own enjoyment, and sometimes I like a little mind-melting cheesy sci-fi.


(The Honor Harrignton series and the various Man-Kzin Wars collections are very good for this)

[Pandemonium]

Twighlight, New Moon, and Eclipse are all very excellent books in my opinion.

[Ruinx]

This looks like it has a lot of potential.

RICHARD MORGAN FANTASY EPIC??!!!?!?! MY HEAD ASPLODE!

Words I never thought I'd see together. He's an awesome cyberpunk-style SF writer, and I would absolutely read that in a FLASH. <Reads> Hahahaha awesome, it's clearly him and in his classic style. Hell yes. Thank you Veilside.

[Veilside]

RICHARD MORGAN FANTASY EPIC??!!!?!?! MY HEAD ASPLODE!

Words I never thought I'd see together. He's an awesome cyberpunk-style SF writer, and I would absolutely read that in a FLASH. <Reads> Hahahaha awesome, it's clearly him and in his classic style. Hell yes. Thank you Veilside.

I've never read any of his stuff, that excerpt (sp??) just looked awesome so I thought I'd put it here, you should really read this guys blog (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/), it has so much decent fantasy information on it, and a hell of a lot of giveaways ( I won a copy of Hunter's Run).

[Ralzar]

This looks like it has a lot of potential.

Wow, I think I have to pick that up.

[Ruinx]

I've never read any of his stuff, that excerpt (sp??) just looked awesome so I thought I'd put it here, you should really read this guys blog (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/), it has so much decent fantasy information on it, and a hell of a lot of giveaways ( I won a copy of Hunter's Run).

Your sp is correct.

Richard Morgan has never, as far as I know, written the fantasy genre before. He's an awesome science fiction writer, who tends to writer horrifically gritty and rather well-reviewed speculative fiction of a variety that might be loosely termed "cyberpunk" or "post-cyberpunk". Bizarrely, he's also written the Black Widow comic book for Marvel for a while. In the US he tends to known as Richard K. Morgan for reasons I don't fully understand.

His characters are always deeply compromised but still likeable/interesting, and he has an amazing grasp on social realities which many SF and Fantasy writers lack (though admittedly many of the ones praised in this thread, notably George R.R. Martin have pretty decent grasps on this too). Anyway, this is some of the most exciting news I've heard in a long time.

I do read Fantasy Hotlist, but only occasionally, because I think he overrates "deep background" fantasy stories and underrates "likeable, realistic characters" stories, and also because anyone who didn't LOATHE Forest Mage with a burning passion obviously has something wrong with them ;)

[mongoose]

<edited to appease Runix's sense of self righteousness>

I must say I find it a little disheartening that so few of you would recommend what I consider to be Fantasy classics and 'must' reads (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=518032&postcount=15). :( I can only conclude by this most have never read them much less heard of them or worse, you deem them to be of somehow lesser quality and not worth reading because they are "old". :|

[Veilside]

I must say I find it a little disheartening that so few of you would recommend what I consider to be Fantasy classics and 'must' reads. :( I can only conclude by this that you have never read them much less heard of them or worse, you deem them to be of somehow lesser quality and not worth reading because they are "old". :|

Which "classics" would those be?

[Ruinx]

I must say I find it a little disheartening that so few of you would recommend what I consider to be Fantasy classics and 'must' reads. :( I can only conclude by this that you have never read them much less heard of them or worse, you deem them to be of somehow lesser quality and not worth reading because they are "old". :|

Perhaps you conclude that because you're projecting your own foolish behaviour on to other people? Really, Mongoose, that's a stunningly childish and petulant thing to say without giving us some concrete, specific examples of what you consider "must-reads" and "fantasy classics". Should I conclude from your lack of examples that you're simply talking complete and utter smack for no good reason?

If you mention Anne McCaffery, Piers Anthony, Hickman/Weis and other '70s/'80s "junk fantasy" authors who are only percieved as having merit due to nostalgia and people being confused as to what good writing consists of, you automatically lose, by the way. Sames goes for some authors like Edgar Rice Burroughs, who, whilst I'm sure great in his time, is only worth reading for novelty value nowdays. REH and Dunsany fare a bit better, but nowhere near as well as, say, Leiber.

Fritz Leiber, Ursula K. LeGuin, Michael Moorcock, Stephen R. Donaldson and others have been mentioned. Is the lack of repetition of their names what you're weeping about? Gene Wolfe hasn't been mentioned, sure, but he's a bit... er... "advanced" for your average reader, as well as arguably not having written fantasy but SF, and I don't mean that in a demeaning way. I just wouldn't recommend him to anyone under about 26. I dunno if Zelazny's been mentioned either, because the Amber series a pretty special, but why not mention that instead of insulting everyone in a weepy manner?

There are relatively few quality fantasy authors I've not read anything of, so I'm very especially eager to hear of these hordes of greater writers and their "must reads" which you've not seem mentioned.

[Frein]

Since so many people are praising this Song of Ice and Fire, I'll probably have to check it out at some point. The book by Richard Morgan had a fairly interesting description as well.


If you mention Anne McCaffery, Piers Anthony, Hickman/Weis and other '70s/'80s "junk fantasy" authors who are only percieved as having merit due to nostalgia and people being confused as to what good writing consists of, you automatically lose, by the way. Sames goes for some authors like Edgar Rice Burroughs, who, whilst I'm sure great in his time, is only worth reading for novelty value nowdays. REH and Dunsany fare a bit better, but nowhere near as well as, say, Leiber.

You know, this "junk fantasy" has its own charm, much like the Kill Bill movies, which are basically a collection of clichés.

I actually love the original Dragonlance Chronicles trilogy by Weis/Hickman. The plot won't make you gasp in its brilliance and the setting is far from original, however, it all comes together rather nicely and it has Raistlin, who in my opinion is one of the most intriguing fictional characters ever invented.

I also really enjoyed the Doombrigade tri... what do you call a set of two books? :?
I'm not entirely sure, but I found the draconians to be a really likable bunch and the whole experience really refreshing as for once the main characters weren't humanoid. I suppose the whole draconians versus dwarves setting was much like a less serious version of the greenskins versus stunties setting in Warhammer.

I suppose you find R. A. Salvatore's Forgotten Realms books junk as well. This time I guess I could agree. His biggest hits, the Dark Elf trilogy and the Icewind Dale trilogy aren't that hot. I found the dark elf society very interesting to read about, but the main character, Drizzt, is just too omnipotent. I hated how he could pretty much kill whoever he wanted without breaking a sweat regardless of how many they were. The supporting cast wasn't really anything worth mentioning either.

What about Tolkien's books? Namely LotR. It was one big yawn to me. The plot is mediocre at best, the characters dull aside from Gandalf (because I like wizards), but then he too disappointed by barely doing any magic at all. He's like the MMORPG oddball; the caster who decided he wants to specialize in melee...

[mongoose]

Perhaps you conclude that because you're projecting your own foolish behaviour on to other people? Really, Mongoose, that's a stunningly childish and petulant thing to say without giving us some concrete, specific examples of what you consider "must-reads" and "fantasy classics". Should I conclude from your lack of examples that you're simply talking complete and utter smack for no good reason?

Fritz Leiber, Ursula K. LeGuin, Michael Moorcock, Stephen R. Donaldson and others have been mentioned. Is the lack of repetition of their names what you're weeping about? Gene Wolfe hasn't been mentioned, sure, but he's a bit... er... "advanced" for your average reader, as well as arguably not having written fantasy but SF, and I don't mean that in a demeaning way. I just wouldn't recommend him to anyone under about 26. I dunno if Zelazny's been mentioned either, because the Amber series a pretty special, but why not mention that instead of insulting everyone in a weepy manner?

Foolish behavior? Childish? petulant? could you try and openly insult me anymore for no good reason? If you have a problem with me take it to a PM but holy hell you need to chill out and quit being so demeaning.

"without giving us some concrete, specific examples of what you consider "must-reads" and "fantasy classics"."

Yeah and do you know who mentioned just about every author YOU listed????.....me, in this very thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=518032&postcount=15).(and pretty much only me) I guess you were too busy insulting me to consider I might have already made a list :oops:..........You want a little help removing that foot from your rather gigantic mouth? :rolleyes:

And yes, I see others in this thread (and past threads about fantasy reading) go on and on about more recent authors like Jordan or Martin, reiterating how good they thought they were, but very little positive repetition of books we BOTH feel are classic and must reads. So I can only conclude that people probably dont even know who Moorcock and Zelazny are (and this has even been established in past threads).....which IS sad considering these are the books those more recent authors probably gained some sort of inspiration from.

[Flegler]

What about Tolkien's books? Namely LotR. It was one big yawn to me. The plot is mediocre at best, the characters dull aside from Gandalf (because I like wizards), but then he too disappointed by barely doing any magic at all. He's like the MMORPG oddball; the caster who decided he wants to specialize in melee...
:confused:
I don't know how I could begin to explain why The Lord of the Rings is better than Dragonlance. It is not disputable. It is axiomatic. I cannot fathom that you thought The Lord of the Rings' plot was mediocre while enjoying the paint-by-numbers melodrama of Dragonlance.

It's integral to Gandalf's character that he doesn't use his power lightly. Otherwise he'd be a tyrant like Saruman, see? Argh, what's the bloody point. He may as well be Fizban.

And yes, I see others in this thread (and past threads about fantasy reading) go on and on about more recent authors like Jordan or Martin, reiterating how good they thought they were, but very little positive repetition of books we BOTH feel are classic and must reads.
Moorcock is great, Donaldson is pretty good too. There we go, positive repetition.

If there's one fantasy author that should be recommended above all others though, it's Ursula Le Guin. She brings a level of craftsmanship to fantasy that most writers seem to consider the genre to be beneath. A Wizard of Earthsea is one of the most perfect books I know. Not a sentence out of place in it, which is one reason it's not as bloated as fantasy novels tend to be.

Finally, to the OP, please read outside of fantasy. It is silly to automatically discount all novels set in the real world. Ease yourself into it. Try a bit of magic realism, or a fantasy set in the modern world. Neil Gaiman would be a good start.

[Kinski]

Definitely, Gaiman is great. I loved Neverwhere and Good Omens (collab with Pratchett) - they're both a must.

American Gods was fun as well, but not as much as those two.

And don't get me started on the Sandman comics! That collection is one of my most prized possessions. :)

[Ruinx]

And yes, I see others in this thread (and past threads about fantasy reading) go on and on about more recent authors like Jordan or Martin, reiterating how good they thought they were, but very little positive repetition of books we BOTH feel are classic and must reads. So I can only conclude that people probably dont even know who Moorcock and Zelazny are (and this has even been established in past threads).....which IS sad considering these are the books those more recent authors probably gained some sort of inspiration from.

I'm sorry Mongoose, but I still think it's very petulant and petty to be upset ("disheartened" etc.) that no-one reiterated the authors you mentioned. I saw them and thought "Good, they've been mentioned, no need to bang that drum further" (I admit I didn't note who mentioned them). Sure, maybe some "kids today" haven't read them yet and mention Martin and the like, but I don't think that's a problem, because sooner or later, they will read them, if they continue to persue reading in the fantasy genre.

I mean, did you really want several posts going "Omg Mongoose is sooooo right!" or just mindlessly repeating those names like they hadn't already been mentioned? Would that have been helpful?

Then you turn the whole deal into an insult to everyone in the thread who hasn't mentioned them (which is, as you say, EVERYONE except you!), claiming that you "must conclude" that were's all unread/dislike these books, which pretty much filled me with ire.

A non-insulting, non-petulant version of your post would have questioned whether people had read them, and considered whether they were just not being mentioned because they weren't quite as "new and exciting" as some fantasy authors, perhaps, instead of accusing us of all of ignoring these authors and undervaluing them ("must conclude" - not "might" or "could" - the definate article is used - you imply the conclusion is forced upon you).

I already spent the whole of the LAST damn "good fantasy books" thread saying how great Moorcock, Leiber and others, so I thought that as someone "had them covered" I'd mention some "new and exciting" authors myself.

I do agree with your recommendations though :p

[Frein]

:confused:
I don't know how I could begin to explain why The Lord of the Rings is better than Dragonlance. It is not disputable. It is axiomatic. I cannot fathom that you thought The Lord of the Rings' plot was mediocre while enjoying the paint-by-numbers melodrama of Dragonlance.

I fail to see how the plot in LotR was significantly different from the three frist DL books. They're in many ways very similar, except I found the pacing and presentation much better in DL. Neither makes you go "OMG! That is ingenius!", but one flows well, the other does not.


It's integral to Gandalf's character that he doesn't use his power lightly. Otherwise he'd be a tyrant like Saruman, see? Argh, what's the bloody point. He may as well be Fizban.

So Gandalf risked having the land engulfed by Sauron's darkness because he thinks using his magic is immoral? What a joke. All he could do was shoot some light from his staff! What a "wizard" we have there. :rolleyes:

I feel that LotR was the beginning for "modern" fantasy, but not until the breakthrough of D&D was the genre refined to what is known as high fantasy today.

[Veilside]

I read History of the Runestaff by Moorcock, wasn't impressed, it just did nothing for me. Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun on the other hand was great, I just prefer the MBotF so that's why I didn't mention those.
Glen Cook is pretty good, although I'm only up to book 4 in the Black Company series, makes a nice change to see a fantasy book that isn't a doorstop.

[mongoose]

I'm sorry Mongoose, but I still think it's very petulant and petty to be upset ("disheartened" etc.) that no-one reiterated the authors you mentioned. I saw them and thought "Good, they've been mentioned, no need to bang that drum further" (I admit I didn't note who mentioned them). Sure, maybe some "kids today" haven't read them yet and mention Martin and the like, but I don't think that's a problem, because sooner or later, they will read them, if they continue to persue reading in the fantasy genre.

I said a little disheartened....not upset, not weepy, not anything else.

Disheartened: discouraged, made less hopeful or enthusiastic.


I mean, did you really want several posts going "Omg Mongoose is sooooo right!" or just mindlessly repeating those names like they hadn't already been mentioned? Would that have been helpful?

Of course not, I could care less if I was the one who mentioned them or not but as you have seen in this thread (and elsewhere), its the names that keep getting repeated that generate the most interest and this topic was started by someone interested in new reading material. Now if you were this person would you take the recommendation of a single person over that of say 10 people who thought a particular book was good?


Then you turn the whole deal into an insult to everyone in the thread who hasn't mentioned them (which is, as you say, EVERYONE except you!), claiming that you "must conclude" that were's all unread/dislike these books, which pretty much filled me with ire.

Sure I could of chosen some slightly different wording but I didnt. It was far from insluting though and probably more true than some people would like to admit. Thats no excuse however for you flying off the handle and being so blatently insulting.


A non-insulting, non-petulant version of your post would have questioned whether people had read them, and considered whether they were just not being mentioned because they weren't quite as "new and exciting" as some fantasy authors, perhaps, instead of accusing us of all of ignoring these authors and undervaluing them ("must conclude" - not "might" or "could" - the definate article is used - you imply the conclusion is forced upon you).

Well thats interesting because I thought my foolish, petulant and childish behavior was because I didnt give any "concrete, specific examples of what you consider "must-reads" and "fantasy classics". Should I conclude from your lack of examples that you're simply talking complete and utter smack for no good reason?" .....but you seem to have glossed over your little 'faux pas'.

My biggest mistake was probably not providing a link to my original post and so all I managed to do because of it was incur the wrath of the never wrong Runix. :rolleyes:

[Ruinx]

Sure I could of chosen some slightly different wording but I didnt. It was far from insluting though and probably more true than some people would like to admit. Thats no excuse however for you flying off the handle and being so blatently insulting.

My biggest mistake was probably not providing a link to my original post and so all I managed to do because of it was incur the wrath of the never wrong Runix. :rolleyes:

No, your biggest mistake was mindlessly labelling EVERYONE in thread as people who hadn't read or de-valued the works you now clarified as the ones you mean. Also, I can be wrong and I'm happy to admit it. Just not to people who incorrectly accuse me and everyone else of not having read those books or valuing them poorly :p

As for "no excuse", rofl, you can talk. There's "no excuse" for claiming that you "must conclude" that, apart from possibly stupidity, which I doubt you would admit to.

[kissmequick]

Any chance you two could stop playing * i'm the biggest book snob* and get back to reccommending some books?

[Grimfell Gromgear]

House of Leaves isn't... persay... fantasy. But I still heavily reccomend it to anyone who likes reading fantasy.

The funny thing is, though I thought I liked fantasy, it seems that other than some of the big ones (Like Lord of the Rings, and the Elric series), I've mostly just read trash fantasy. In a way though, I like trash fantasy. I go snap up cheap paperbacks and enjoy a quick read in between my more in depth studies.

Though, it probably has something to do with the fact that I finish most novels in 1-2 days so... well, let's just say I run out of things to read very quickly after my weekly visits to Barnes and Nobles. (And my roomate is starting to complain about the fact that I've started piling books since I'm out of Shelf space... *sigh*

[kissmequick]

I'm the same - it has to be a pretty dense read to last me more than 2 days. I raid the charity shops as often as I can or I'd have no money ( I found an entire Michael Morcock collection the other day for £10 \o/)

What other people call *junk* or *trash* I'd say was more light entertainment - no different to watching a comedy film or so. Just because it doesn't have much to say about philosophical questions or politics or whatever, just because it's written in an easy to read way, doesn't make it any less entertaining, or less worthy. And of course, entertainment is one of the main purposes of reading I'd say.

While I do like more literary fantasy, something lighter can be just the thing. And Dragonlance will always have a place close to my heart because, as my hubby is quite badly dyslexic, it was the first book I could get him to read( as the style is easy for him). He's got such a love of reading now he never has his nose out of a book.

And another reccomendation if you like teh lighter side of fantasy is Tom Holt. His books are maybe a little repetitive, but I can reccomend THe Portable Door.

[Ruinx]

What other people call *junk* or *trash* I'd say was more light entertainment - no different to watching a comedy film or so. Just because it doesn't have much to say about philosophical questions or politics or whatever, just because it's written in an easy to read way, doesn't make it any less entertaining, or less worthy. And of course, entertainment is one of the main purposes of reading I'd say.

That's the thing though - I find, that, against my will, I can no longer obtain entertainment from reading the sort of books I call "junk fantasy". I'm not saying I'm a brilliant person or whatever, but if I try and read them, my brain finds absolutely nothing to engage with (including the story), and I get this strange feeling, which basically translates to utter boredom. It's a little tricky to describe. I mean, like you, have some fondness for Dragonlance, but I tried re-reading the books recently, and I just couldn't get into them. They were just too light and senseless or something.

Now I find the semi-serious fantasy serves the same "entertainment" purpose for me that "junk fantasy" once did, and there's some ultra-serious fantasy as well that's still "challenging" (like Gene Wolfe).

Back to book recommendations? Most of the books I'd recommend have been mentioned, so do you have any idea what sort of thing you're looking for? Love dragons? Hate elves? Hate OTT/in-your-face magic? Love it?

One persons I've not mentioned who has written some nice stuff is Greg Keyes, I can recommend his Kingdoms of Bone and Thorn series particularly.

[Okri]

Well, although my knowledge of Fantasy litterature is astoundingly poor for a guy who loves fantasy games and roleplay, I think I'm going to call The Hobbit my favourite fantasy book. I love the kind of story-telling-around-the-fireplace-way Tolkien has of writing, with all the trailing off, peculiar details and remarks from the narrator and so on. I like to think of it as the jolly uncle of the Lord of the Rings. Not so serious, more casually told and generally more pleasant to read.
Plus, it has Dwarves, which is always a plus.

I am surprised that people seem to like the Children of Hurin, as all I have heard of it, makes it sound like a fancy phone-book, ie. lots and lots of names and numbers. But, I s'pose it's worth a try if people here like it.

[Festo]

The Hobbit is one of my fav books also for the same reasons

[kissmequick]

That's the thing though - I find, that, against my will, I can no longer obtain entertainment from reading the sort of books I call "junk fantasy". I'm not saying I'm a brilliant person or whatever, but if I try and read them, my brain finds absolutely nothing to engage with (including the story), and I get this strange feeling, which basically translates to utter boredom. It's a little tricky to describe. I mean, like you, have some fondness for Dragonlance, but I tried re-reading the books recently, and I just couldn't get into them. They were just too light and senseless or something.

Now I find the semi-serious fantasy serves the same "entertainment" purpose for me that "junk fantasy" once did, and there's some ultra-serious fantasy as well that's still "challenging" (like Gene Wolfe).

I know exactly what you mean about the boredom, but I think that can be just personal preference rather than a lack of quality in the books, everybody has pet hates / likes in the way they like to see a story written. Personally I read it all ( more to improve my own writing by firguring out why exactly they don't work for me). All writers have faults, there probably isn't a book in a thousand that couldn't be improved in some way. LOTR has it's faults, for all that I love it, Tolkien was too long winded in too many places and some of his characterisation was too chilly and aloof. I'm probably alone here, but Song of Ice and Fire has one of my mega pet hates in it ( too much changing of POV, I mean every chapter!! 8 or 9 viewpoints!! how do you connect with the characters properly?) Dragonlance has it's faults too, but also its plus points - the realistic characterisation( i know someone just like Tanis, and I married Fliint lol) and the warmth with which it's written.

Back to book recommendations? Most of the books I'd recommend have been mentioned, so do you have any idea what sort of thing you're looking for? Love dragons? Hate elves? Hate OTT/in-your-face magic? Love it?

One persons I've not mentioned who has written some nice stuff is Greg Keyes, I can recommend his Kingdoms of Bone and Thorn series particularly.I agree with Greg Keyes, I like his stuff. What I'm after at the moment ( as a bit of research as it were) is contemporary fantasy, ie fantasy that is set in this world and time. Got any good ones to share?

[Ruinx]

Sadly I've not read much contemporary fantasy of late (it seems like with the end of the '90s there was less of it). I've heard a lot of good things about the Dresden books (and I like the TV series), so they're probably worth a shot.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Sadly I've not read much contemporary fantasy of late (it seems like with the end of the '90s there was less of it). I've heard a lot of good things about the Dresden books (and I like the TV series), so they're probably worth a shot.

I have yet to see the TV series but I hear that it is very different from the books.

I found the books to be a nice mesh of two of my more beloved genres (that being detective work and magic), and it's very character driven, which I like. They books aren't terribly deep, but they do run at a reasonable clip, and while things do 'happen' in the books that change over time, they can also be taken pretty seperately easily enough. I really got into the early ones, but I've found my interest waning a bit as time went on with the series. I drift in and out of it now, but it's one of the nicer little paperbacks to fill up to kill a weekend here and there. I'd classify it as 'summer reading'. It's a good kind of book to take to the pool or on a train ride.

Notably, and I doubt this is much of a spoiler but *SPOILER ALERT* one of my favorite scenes has been when Dresden went to a costume ball run by vampires and, just to tick them off, dressed up as a cheesy hollywood vampire as his costume.

I probably like the series just because Dresden is such a well rounded and ultimately likeable character.