Teclis: Why, Oh Why?! [Archive]

Tingol

10-16-2007, 11:49 AM

for me its kinda "immersion breaking" and a bit like wow this. killing teclis :< and other superspecial characters.

one thing i like in games like warhammer is the feeling of "bigger than me" world. thats why i don't enjoy playing with special characters in the TT and i don't want to kill the most uber in WAR. i want to be a footsoldier in a large war, not a superhero that together with my buddies kill off Malekith

That said, i think i can manage to put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes when it happens :roll:

(on a sidenote, if he dies by the hand of hundreds of dark elves together with maybe Malekith (who conveniently showed up for the killing blow :p) it'll be fine) 8-)

Kermichil

10-16-2007, 11:51 AM

Just out of curiosity, when did they say that Teclis would die?

Bargad

10-16-2007, 12:01 PM

Archangel put it in an announcement, an interview with Paul Barnett.

Chielz0r

10-16-2007, 12:14 PM

I want to kill Teclis :D

Nathar

10-16-2007, 12:14 PM

BUT, as I said, it's just Paul.. he wants us to get excited and I doubt everything from his mouth is the sworn truth.

Asuril

10-16-2007, 01:05 PM

I would like it so much more if the end-game PvE raids in WAR do not actually involve killing named characters. They're supposed to be untouchable and mighty.

Now, if the raid involved fighting Teclis and in the end you've sapped his strength and he runs off, which in turns help you win a battle or whatever, then that's different.

But... to kill him? Presumably multiple times if you happen to repeat the dungeon?

Lame.

Feigro

10-16-2007, 01:13 PM

But... to kill him? Presumably multiple times if you happen to repeat the dungeon?

I don't see the difference really. TT fanatics have been killing teclis, and malekith, and <insert unstoppable hero here> for years and years. If anything, the majority of TT players are more concerned with the lore than the majority of players that are just MMORPG players.

I don't see why it's okay to kill these guys in the game that is the progenitor of the entire Warhammer universe. Yet it's not okay to kill them in a non-canonical spinoff.

Don't get me wrong, I personally like the idea of merely "defeating" them much better also. I'm just posing a question.

Asuril

10-16-2007, 01:18 PM

I don't see the difference really.

You don't see a difference between a scripted event in an immersive recreation of the setting, featuring thousands of players and a 1 on 1 strategy game with little out-dated metal miniatures?

Hm.

Feigro

10-16-2007, 01:20 PM

You don't see a difference between a scripted event in an immersive recreation of the setting, featuring thousands of players and a 1 on 1 strategy game with little out-dated metal miniatures?

Hm.

Nope. Because in the end, neither event, be it the 1v1 encounter or the one that involves thousands of players, has any effect on the status of the Warhammer world. Unless is a GW sanctioned event, where it's been stated, WAR is non-canon.

As far as it's relevence to the Warhammer universe, WAR is essentially no different than a couple of guys getting together in their basement and posing a "What if?" campaign of either Fantasy Battles, or Fantasy Roleplay. Only difference is Mythic is inviting over a lot more than a just handful of friends to play.

Asuril

10-16-2007, 01:32 PM

Nope. Because in the end, neither event, be it the 1v1 encounter or the one that involves thousands of players, as any effect on the status of the Warhammer world. Unless is a GW sanctioned event, where it's been stated, WAR is non-canon.

The difference you're failing to see is that one is a game that also tells a story (the MMO), and the other is purely a game with minimal story involved (the tabletop). I think it's perfectly reasonable to hope that the story doesn't threaten the setting by killing off the iconic characters.

Would you be a fan of a series of short stories that killed Han Solo between the events of A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back? Or what if Star Wars Galaxies let you go and murder Chewbacca? If they make a Harry Potter MMO and after your first year in Hogwarts you can kill Minerva McGonagall? Is that appropriate? Does that sound fun to you simply because it has no effect on the actual lore? Or does it make the subject feel like a big joke that refuses to take the content seriously?

I think that these types of events do nothing more than trivialize the steps taken to make the MMO's world feel authentic or accurate. If they're going to be killing off Teclis, they might as well make Dwarfs pink and give Greenskins wings; it's the same sort of mistreatment of the setting.

Feigro

10-16-2007, 01:41 PM

Would you be a fan of a series of short stories that killed Han Solo between the events of A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back? Or what if Star Wars Galaxies let you go and murder Chewbacca? If they make a Harry Potter MMO and after your first year in Hogwarts you can kill Minerva McGonagall? Is that appropriate? Does that sound fun to you simply because it has no effect on the actual lore? Or does it make the subject feel like a big joke that refuses to take the content seriously?

I don't think most of your examples are really the same;

Or what if Star Wars Galaxies let you go and murder Chewbacca?

-It would be stupid, because Chewbacca is alive in the next films

Here's the difference however, ignoring the expanded universe for a second, I'm going to change your question;

What if SWG took place after the 6th movie and they let you murder Chewbacca?

-I would be fine with it, because the future is now up to us, fake or not. There's no existing standard of future events to hold to.

WAR takes place, essentially, at the end of the timeline of events in Warhammer. They're already splitting off into separate universe with the fact that in WAR's timeline - the Storm of Chaos doesn't, and isn't going to, happen. The Age of Reckoning is essentially replacing the Storm of Chaos and the lore of this "pocket-dimension" is going in a different direction.

So no, it isn't the same as Dwarfs pink, and giving Greenskins wings. Because neither of those exist in the history of Warhammer, which is behind WAR. However, no one knows what will happen on the 100th day of the Age of Reckoning. Teclis could very well die that day.

LastHeretic

10-16-2007, 01:45 PM

thankyou for overreacting, you've been a big help -_-

hyperboles can only be taken so far before you're just whining. i agree with Feigro here, its just a computer representation of the universe, you talk about a story line but you wouldn't complain if you have to kill a large/ancient demon/monster for a quest, then 10 minutes later another adventurer comes and kills it. just because you've defeated it doesn't mean it should be completely removed from the game or the Warhammer universe. otherwise after the 1st couple of months there'd simply be nothing left to kill

Tirath

10-16-2007, 01:54 PM

I want to kill Teclis :D

NONONONO!!!! Teclis is TKTK, meaning Too Kool To Kill....
If they kill him im certain a part of me and many more will die aswell...

It will be like if they decide that, ok folks. lets make Bugman die.. Hes a too big part of the Lore to die by a lifeless 41 year and a nolife 14 year shouting in Vent.. More Dot`s more dots... /mahwrist`s if that happens.......

and anyhow, if GW really wanna kill their own fanbase they would have already done it with the likes of Archaon.. that survived the war and fled.. now wich chaos god would not kill him after this??? yes u can continue fighting... no they would be furious and kill him. but GW is the greater God after all <3<3

Asuril

10-16-2007, 02:11 PM

WAR takes place, essentially, at the end of the timeline of events in Warhammer. They're already splitting off into separate universe with the fact that in WAR's timeline - the Storm of Chaos doesn't, and isn't going to, happen. The Age of Reckoning is essentially replacing the Storm of Chaos and the lore of this "pocket-dimension" is going in a different direction.

Alright, I see your point. I can also see how my examples are poor ones.

I think the problem is that nobody really knows what Teclis' role is in the GW lore. He could be the magician that kills Malekith in the prophecy, or maybe not. We also don't know what role the curse of Aenarion in his blood will play. Part of that mystery is what makes the lore intriguing to me. It basically gives the illusion of some depth which may or may not exist. At any rate, flat-out being able to kill Teclis abolishes that, and that bothers me. It makes me feel that the world in WAR is not trying as diligently to preserve the many nuances of the lore.

thankyou for overreacting, you've been a big help -_-

hyperboles can only be taken so far before you're just whining. i agree with Feigro here, its just a computer representation of the universe, you talk about a story line but you wouldn't complain if you have to kill a large/ancient demon/monster for a quest, then 10 minutes later another adventurer comes and kills it. just because you've defeated it doesn't mean it should be completely removed from the game or the Warhammer universe. otherwise after the 1st couple of months there'd simply be nothing left to kill

Thanks for taking the opportunity to flame me.

I wouldn't complain about killing a generic demon/monster/hero or whatever for a quest, because it's just that. Generic. It is not a descended son of Aenarion. It hasn't had a major effect on centuries of history. There's a tiny difference.

I also don't know why you're implying that I'm suggesting a system where individual creatures are unique and do not respawn. Maybe this is a hyperbole? I dunno, it just sounds like you're whining.

Gaazruk

10-16-2007, 02:33 PM

If they get Teclis, we get Morathi :P

Vaeronthar

10-16-2007, 02:54 PM

Fair trade.

Vikingkingq

10-16-2007, 03:15 PM

Just to throw in 2 cents:

Mythic has said in the past that they've been going back and forth on making major lore characters/important people killable or capturable. I would imagine the same applies for Teclis.

Fiaryn-Kilif

10-16-2007, 04:15 PM

The difference you're failing to see is that one is a game that also tells a story (the MMO), and the other is purely a game with minimal story involved (the tabletop).

This would be an excellent point if it weren't for the fact that MMOs on the whole never, ever actually tell much of a story. See, MMOs set up a story...but they never finish it or resolve any conflicts. Look at WoW or CoV. Do you think the threat that is Arthas will ever be vanquished once and for all? Will the Rikti ever be conclusively stopped? Will Lord Recluse's villainous etc etc etc. It's in their nature. To ensure maximum enjoyment for average joe gamer and minimize ing about missing content, MMOs create a world in which a story and conflict is poised to play out in grandiose fashion...but never really does.
Yes, there will be many many quests that are supposed to further the plot, but none of them ever resolve it conclusively and everything gets reset to base condition. Which is pretty much the way it is with TT to, you've got the set up of a story in the fluff, but nothing ever goes anywhere in the TT game.

This is also why I, though a roleplayer, don't bother in an MMORPG.

GrandOne

10-16-2007, 05:11 PM

* Edited for Content *

Sethno

10-16-2007, 05:40 PM

If they get Teclis, we get Morathi :P

No, Morathi lives! :D

Gaazruk

10-16-2007, 06:37 PM

No, Morathi lives! :D
Teclis is one of the greatest magic-users alive and if he can be taken down by a handful of run of the mill destruction guys, then Morathi should be nerfed down to raidable state aswell.

GrandOne

10-16-2007, 06:45 PM

Teclis is one of the greatest magic-users alive and if he can be taken down by a handful of run of the mill destruction guys, then Morathi should be nerfed down to raidable state aswell.

He is THE GREATEST magic user if you don't count Slann
Only one who can rival Teclis is Nagash himself

Sethno

10-16-2007, 07:00 PM

He is THE GREATEST magic user if you don't count Slann
Only one who can rival Teclis is Nagash himselfHey, Morathi is no pushover! I'm sure she'd give Teclis a good fight. Probably a better one then Malekith!

-Sethno

Vaeronthar

10-16-2007, 08:07 PM

But she would lose.

Kermichil

10-16-2007, 08:32 PM

Is Teclis killable or capturable? There is a big difference between the two.

Gorrr

10-16-2007, 08:35 PM

BUT, as I said, it's just Paul.. he wants us to get excited and I doubt everything from his mouth is the sworn truth.

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION OUR OTHERWORDLY WISE PROPHET!?

Just kidding =P

Keyes

10-16-2007, 10:11 PM

If he dies as part of some crap pve raid that thats too bad but you can be happy with the knowledge that he will spring back to life again soon.

If on the other hand he is the king/boss guy for the flower picking high elves, then theoretically if you do your jobs right in protecting him he will never die :D.

I look forward to adorning my spiky armor with his head when the DE finally reclaim their homeland!

Dreadon

10-17-2007, 12:11 AM

This hole thing can be boiled down to semantics, is he killed, captured, or driven off. I my self would like the chance to help defeat such a legend but the fact that a group of PCs can kill such a mighty wizard time and time again seems wrong to me for some reason. now if they had it where we got him to say 25% hp and in comes Malekith and finishes him off in some dramatic cut scene that to me seems better.

Pendrako

10-17-2007, 12:26 AM

I think you're forgetting an important point here. Nobody actually dies in a MMORPG, unless the game has permadeath as a mechanic. The only characters who get killed, as far as you can tell, are the nameless PvE mobs.

Now, if the raid involved fighting Teclis and in the end you've sapped his strength and he runs off, which in turns help you win a battle or whatever, then that's different.

I think that's pretty much how it's going to happen. Paul also mentioned a while ago that you'd be fighting Teclis in Vaul's Anvil, which is down by all the tier 4 zones in Ulthuan, so it's likely that he'll be among the hardest bosses to take down in the game.

This would be an excellent point if it weren't for the fact that MMOs on the whole never, ever actually tell much of a story. See, MMOs set up a story...but they never finish it or resolve any conflicts. Look at WoW or CoV. Do you think the threat that is Arthas will ever be vanquished once and for all? Will the Rikti ever be conclusively stopped? Will Lord Recluse's villainous etc etc etc. It's in their nature. To ensure maximum enjoyment for average joe gamer and minimize ing about missing content, MMOs create a world in which a story and conflict is poised to play out in grandiose fashion...but never really does.
Yes, there will be many many quests that are supposed to further the plot, but none of them ever resolve it conclusively and everything gets reset to base condition. Which is pretty much the way it is with TT to, you've got the set up of a story in the fluff, but nothing ever goes anywhere in the TT game.
Agreed, mostly. It's up to the players to tell the story. On an individual level, you're not likely to have a big part to play in the epic storylines you get in MMORPGs, but it is possible for lots of small individual efforts to add up to make a difference. We'll see how things pan out in WAR over the years to come.

Malal

10-17-2007, 01:29 AM

I want to use Teclis's staff as a walking stick when imma old daemon prince. I have no problem with using special characters but what i do hate is the tendency for them to be stupidly hard, if you know what i mean?i dont mind teclis et al (archeon, karl franz, malekith, thorgrim and that orc) having a mass of body guards(20-50) but what i do hate is a tendency for "special" characters having insane amounts of health. I have no problem with unique or "super" version of PC abilities its just if 20 people need to beat on a guy for 30mins it just seems really unrealistic and completly away from cannon, tt or any sense of sanity!

i dont want to see teclis et al raidable, i wanna see him killable by 10-20 people max with the killing of his body guard taking the most amount of time....well that and invading the right bit o ulthuan.

I can live with LARGE monsters(dragons/chimeras') needing 20-30 people to kill em as there large and in my mind would need a regiment to kill em.

Asuril, i can see what your saying but wouldnt you want the chance to defend teclis against us? or the chance to kill archeon / malekith? Plus i dont think it will be perma death...more like we drive off teclis( or anyone else for that matter) and he flees leaving behind some fat lewt !

Delolith

10-17-2007, 02:38 AM

If DEs get the chance to kill or capture Teclis etc I hope we get a fair chance to either kill Morathi or Malekith...cause nothing less would be of same scale.

Delolith

Lord Tareq

10-17-2007, 04:28 AM

Isn't it enough GW lets high elf characters kill all the dark elf ones in the actual lore that matters?? Its about time the tables are turned.

You don't see a difference between a scripted event in an immersive recreation of the setting, featuring thousands of players and a 1 on 1 strategy game with little out-dated metal miniatures?

Hm.

Hmm...let me see. No, there is indeed no difference between killing Teclis in the reallife TT game, and killing him in a little virtual character game that is basically a mass of pixels and data you manipulate by your actions, resulting in an image being projected on your screen.

Thoden Firehammer

10-17-2007, 04:44 AM

Lord Tareq

10-17-2007, 05:09 AM

..... Tareq, I think you need to put the games away for a while.....maybe you can touch the controls once you're able to see a difference between killing someone in RL and killing someone in a game :P

Read the sentence again, RL TT game (not RL Teclis) i.e. with models you can actually touch in contrast to pixel images on a screen.

Thoden Firehammer

10-17-2007, 05:37 AM

Read the sentence again, RL TT game (not RL Teclis) i.e. with models you can actually touch in contrast to pixel images on a screen.

Ahh, I thought there was a comma there, and I was so wanting to call you a sadist :P

Nathar

10-17-2007, 06:38 AM

Hmm...let me see. No, there is indeed no difference between killing Teclis in the reallife TT game, and killing him in a little virtual character game that is basically a mass of pixels and data you manipulate by your actions, resulting in an image being projected on your screen.

I disagree. The TT game is a single small game. He wasn't talking about big storyline important mass battle hosted by GW, he was talking about house TT games. This is a story scripted PC game that allows the creators to control somewhat what happens. Killing him in a place with no control or importance does have a difference to a story scripted rpg with a supposed storyline.
But that might just be me.

Oh and for the record we agree on the other part of the same post. I want Urian and especially Kouran back. He is still one of my favourite special characters and they go kill him off, in a single story. It wasn't even important for pete's sake!

Chielz0r

10-17-2007, 07:34 AM

NONONONO!!!! Teclis is TKTK, meaning Too Kool To Kill....
If they kill him im certain a part of me and many more will die aswell...

It will be like if they decide that, ok folks. lets make Bugman die.. Hes a too big part of the Lore to die by a lifeless 41 year and a nolife 14 year shouting in Vent.. More Dot`s more dots... /mahwrist`s if that happens.......

and anyhow, if GW really wanna kill their own fanbase they would have already done it with the likes of Archaon.. that survived the war and fled.. now wich chaos god would not kill him after this??? yes u can continue fighting... no they would be furious and kill him. but GW is the greater God after all <3<3

I personally would have loved it if Grimgor would just have smashed Archaons head to pulp. It was a good call to let Valten die though, he was a lame- character and deserved it. Karl-Franz ftw!

Feigro

10-17-2007, 08:53 AM

I disagree. The TT game is a single small game. He wasn't talking about big storyline important mass battle hosted by GW, he was talking about house TT games. This is a story scripted PC game that allows the creators to control somewhat what happens. Killing him in a place with no control or importance does have a difference to a story scripted rpg with a supposed storyline.
But that might just be me.

I'll say again;

As far as it's relevence to the Warhammer universe, WAR is essentially no different than a couple of guys getting together in their basement and posing a "What if?" campaign of either Fantasy Battles, or Fantasy Roleplay. Only difference is Mythic is inviting over a lot more than a just handful of friends to play.

Another post (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=520028&postcount=16) on the matter of storyline.

WAR and Warhammer are entirely separate entities in regards to storyline at this point. Everything in the past is canon for both universes (with WAR picking and choosing bits it does or doesn't want). From here into the future, WAR and Warhammer canon are going in different directions.

Captbigbeard

10-17-2007, 09:16 AM

Teclis.
I have always thought that Teclis was the one who would eventually kill the Witch King. At the Battle of Finubal Plain, he almost managed it. But why, oh WHY????

Apparently, he will die in their game! I can understand Tyrion, big brutal High Elf Hero who can kick anyone to High hell, but Teclis???
Ok, if WAR isn't counted in the canon, I'll be fine with it. Otherwise :cry: *angry eyes*

Your Thoughts?

Teclis wasn't sure he could beat Gotrek ;)

Nathar

10-17-2007, 09:33 AM

WAR and Warhammer are entirely separate entities in regards to storyline at this point. Everything in the past is canon for both universes (with WAR picking and choosing bits it does or doesn't want). From here into the future, WAR and Warhammer canon are going in different directions.

Catching is still better then killing, killing again, and again and again and...... in my book!

Feigro

10-17-2007, 09:47 AM

Catching is still better then killing, killing again, and again and again and...... in my book!

I certainly agree!

Dussel

10-17-2007, 09:55 AM

Hey, Morathi is no pushover! I'm sure she'd give Teclis a good fight. Probably a better one then Malekith!

-Sethno

I seriously doubt it.

Morathi has no real power other than manipulation, especially her own son and/or other Slaanesh devotees.

Nathar

10-17-2007, 09:59 AM

I seriously doubt it.

Morathi has no real power other than manipulation, especially her own son and/or other Slaanesh devotees.

Wow. Just wow. You don't really know a heck of a lot about Morathi do you? She's the most powerful dark elf spellcaster at all. Most likely (not definately, there are other grand ones out there) the second most powerful elvish spellcaster at all (after Teclis, who is sadly ahead). She was the one who taught Malekith what "little" he knows. I added little because she is so far beyond him by the way.

Sethno

10-17-2007, 10:03 AM

I seriously doubt it.

Morathi has no real power other than manipulation, especially her own son and/or other Slaanesh devotees.

Oh come on, give Morathi some credit! She is a level four mage btw, the same as Teclis in the TT. Anyhow, it is listed many times that she is the most powerful Witch Elf and Sorceress in Naggaroth, I would think that's saying something, no? Sorceresses and Witch Elves aren't exactly pushovers either! I do admit, she probably would lose to Teclis. But, she does have power. I personally think more power then Malekith. ;)

-Sethno

Dussel

10-17-2007, 10:06 AM

Wow. Just wow. You don't really know a heck of a lot about Morathi do you? She's the most powerful dark elf spellcaster at all. Most likely (not definately, there are other grand ones out there) the second most powerful elvish spellcaster at all (after Teclis, who is sadly ahead). She was the one who taught Malekith what "little" he knows. I added little because she is so far beyond him by the way.

I know enough, so keep your presumptions to yourself.

She might be oh so grand a mage or magic wielder("the powerful bla bla is thrown around way to much in Warhammer lately) but she is still no where the level that Malekith has when it comes to physical prowess or magic abilities (by this I mean implanting it into combat and warfare) her real true power is in deception and manipulation.

Now IF she was oh so horribly powerful, why did she not lead the invasions against the High Elves? I for one, would not stay behind when I first heard that my troops were being beaten to a pulp.'

Oh come on, give Morathi some credit! She is a level four mage btw, the same as Teclis in the TT. Anyhow, it is listed many times that she is the most powerful Witch Elf and Sorceress in Naggaroth, I would think that's saying something, no? Sorceresses and Witch Elves aren't exactly pushovers either! I do admit, she probably would lose to Teclis. But, she does have power. I personally think more power then Malekith. ;)

-Sethno

I did give Morathi credit.
She might be a level four mage in the TT, but would not be worth the point cost if not.
No sorceresses and witch elves are not pushovers, but her main and best ability is still manipulation and deceit.

She might be able to throw a fireball or two.. fine, doesn't really unnerve me compared to many of the other elven mages etc.

What would unnerve me, is her ability to lure and recruit Chaos warriors to fight for her, even though they could be needed somewhere else.

Bear in mind this is ONLY my point of view.

Estebar

10-17-2007, 10:16 AM

I seriously doubt it.

Morathi has no real power other than manipulation, especially her own son and/or other Slaanesh devotees.

This may (or may not) be considered true, but she takes manipulation to an inconceivable level of complexity.

Hasn't she got some kind of special rule in which her intricate web of manipulation extends to a thousand diabolical pacts made with daemons to protect her from harm?

And hasn't she been manipulating the favour of not one, but TWO gods, having temporarily "dumped" Slaanesh and only recently taken him back again?

And besides manipulation, didn't she teach Malekith, the greatest sorcerer, Dark magic and yet retain +1 roll to casting over him in tabletop terms?

...and let's be honest, magic aside, as the oldest (and most physically youthful) Hag Queen of the Temple of Khaine's Witch Elves, (and the oldest Dark Elf, alive or dead) couldn't she kick his weak little in close-combat anyway?

Now IF she was oh so horribly powerful, why did she not lead the invasions against the High Elves? I for one, would not stay behind when I first heard that my troops were being beaten to a pulp. Well, that's very honourable of you, but Dark Elves don't work like that. Besides, if it was anything like the last invasion of Ulthuan, during the Storm of Chaos, Morathi was busy leading her own army (the Pleasure Cult of Slaanesh) to Lustria to steal ancient powerful artifacts from the Lizardmen to help Naggaroth's cause (supposedly ;) ).

She might be able to throw a fireball or two.. fine, doesn't really unnerve me compared to many of the other elven mages etc.

What would unnerve me, is her ability to lure and recruit Chaos warriors to fight for her, even though they could be needed somewhere else. ...I'd be a little more unnerved by the fact that she can unravel the fabrics of reality and open portals into the Realm of Chaos. That's a little more frightening than a fireball or two, seeing as she could either send something into that Realm... or lure things out...

Sethno

10-17-2007, 10:21 AM

I know enough, so keep your presumptions to yourself.

She might be oh so grand a mage or magic wielder("the powerful bla bla is thrown around way to much in Warhammer lately) but she is still no where the level that Malekith has when it comes to physical prowess or magic abilities (by this I mean implanting it into combat and warfare) her real true power is in deception and manipulation.

Now IF she was oh so horribly powerful, why did she not lead the invasions against the High Elves? I for one, would not stay behind when I first heard that my troops were being beaten to a pulp.'

These are Dark Elves you're talking about here. Are any of them not manipulative? That's just the way Dark Elves work! Also, Morathi's political skills are what make her so powerful. Not only is she insanely powerful, but she is also a cunning states woman. The Dark Elves wouldn't even be around if it wasn't for her. Also, Morathi would probably own any other High Elf character other then Teclis. Bye bye, Tyrion!

She might be able to throw a fireball or two.. fine, doesn't really unnerve me compared to many of the other elven mages etc.

A fireball or two? Are you crazy? True Dhar is capable of some amazing things. Terrible, but amazing. So, saying she is the most adept of True Dhar out of any other person? That sounds like a whole lot of trouble to me.

I think you just have a personal tiff with Morathi :)

-Sethno

Nathar

10-17-2007, 10:36 AM

She might be oh so grand a mage or magic wielder("the powerful bla bla is thrown around way to much in Warhammer lately) but she is still no where the level that Malekith has when it comes to physical prowess or magic abilities (by this I mean implanting it into combat and warfare) her real true power is in deception and manipulation.

Physical power has nothing whatsoever to do with their match. Malekith is way beyond Teclis when it comes to that but Teclis still wins. Because it doesn't matter.

Other then that I have little to add, the others are handling it just fine.

Bear in mind this is ONLY my point of view.

This - in my book - changes everything. I respect that, and it's cool. Just don't throw it out there like it's complete fact. This...

Morathi has no real power other than manipulation, especially her own son and/or other Slaanesh devotees.

...sounded like you were definately right. Like it was much more then your point of view. It isn't!

Pangscar

10-17-2007, 12:19 PM

Why is it so hard to fathom fighting named bosses from the lore in game? Would it not be even more ridiculous if they added a bunch of no-name random NPCs as bosses to fight? As long as it fits in with the rest of the story whats the big deal. Its not like once the boss gets killed in game the first time that they will be written off and deleted from the whole story(they respawn ya know its ok).

Gaazruk

10-17-2007, 12:21 PM

Is Teclis killable or capturable? There is a big difference between the two.
They said Killable, and if they switched it capturable it would be even more ridiculous....

Dark Elf 1: WE HAVE CAUGHT ONE OF OUR MOST POWERFUL ENEMIES! LET US SLAY HIM FOR THE WITCH KING!

Dark Elf Captain: Nah, lets just give him back in a month.

Gaazruk

10-17-2007, 12:29 PM

These are Dark Elves you're talking about here. Are any of them not manipulative? That's just the way Dark Elves work! Also, Morathi's political skills are what make her so powerful. Not only is she insanely powerful, but she is also a cunning states woman. The Dark Elves wouldn't even be around if it wasn't for her. Also, Morathi would probably own any other High Elf character other then Teclis. Bye bye, Tyrion!

While Morathi's skill is quite high I dont know about killing Tyrion, Malekith could kill Tyrion most likely but I dont think Morathi could.

Sethno

10-17-2007, 12:40 PM

While Morathi's skill is quite high I dont know about killing Tyrion, Malekith could kill Tyrion most likely but I dont think Morathi could.

Teclis > Morathi > Malekith > Tyrion imo. ;d

Of course I am a huge Morathi fan so my opinion is a bit biased!

Vaeronthar

10-17-2007, 12:44 PM

Wrong.

Eltharion>Teclis>Morathi>Malekith>Tyrion

Gaazruk

10-17-2007, 01:18 PM

Wrong.

Eltharion>Teclis>Morathi>Malekith>Tyrion
While Eltharion is one of the greatest high elf generals of all time, I dont know if he could stop the earth splitting power level of Teclis, if Eltharion got into melee combat with Teclis then yeah Teclis might get screwed but thats because Teclis is frail and weak. If Eltharion is trying to be heroic looking and flying around on his griffon trying to swipe at Teclis then Eltharion would go down like a rock. Oh and how did we get from Talking about Morathi and Teclis to Eltharion, Malekith and Tyrion?

Vaeronthar

10-17-2007, 01:58 PM

Oh and how did we get from Talking about Morathi and Teclis to Eltharion, Malekith and Tyrion?
Using my irrational fanboyism, that's how.

Terridan

10-17-2007, 02:03 PM

Teclis would have killed Malekith had the latter not teleported away at the last moment, so really, that's not the issue. And I've seen both die in the TT game numerous times over and over; it's usually a turning point for the other army and can quickly spell victory.

Now then, killing him in an MMO... would you rather kill "Teclis' Magical Clone #843" instead of fighting the real deal? If it's the Lore behind the killing that's bothering you, think of the fact that he could just be left for dead, horribly wounded, or it was some sort of spell that gave him a double. With someone of his power level, he's going to have an escape hatch even if you do beat him. Also, as someone said, as earth-shattering as his power is, he wasn't sure if he could take Gotrek.

Now then, as for Tyrion vs Malekith, I actually think Tyrion's the better swordsman (TT rules back this one up). Malekith's strength isn't from his skill of arms or feats of magic, it's the combination of the two, plus the fact he has an entire nation of warriors at his absolute command.

So skillwise, I think that Teclis and Tyrion both beat him in their respective fields. Morathi, while powerful, doesn't equal her son in either, but she is a force in her own right. Also, she is the master of manipulation, but I remember reading a story where Anith Anar, the Shadow King (sp?) had snuck into Naggaroth and danced with her. My point; no character is infallible and there's someone always out there who can trump em. :)

Best example? Look at Teclis vs Lord Kroak from lizardmen or some of the 2nd Gen slann. He rivals the power of the 2nd generation Slann, but doesn't hold a candle to the mummified frog that is Kroak.

Getting off topic there, but final thoughts. I think our characters are supposed to be more than generic. If you look at the TT equivolents that the classes are based on, I would put our characters as the champions for said units, while at the highest level we're rivals for the strongest of the army generals without going into special characters.

Nathar

10-17-2007, 02:06 PM

Morathi, while powerful, doesn't equal her son in either, but she is a force in her own right.

As your point was another I'll keep it brief. It is wrong to claim that he is a better magic wielder them her. She is the best magic wielder of all dark elves. Period!

Lucrece

10-17-2007, 02:12 PM

If DEs get the chance to kill or capture Teclis etc I hope we get a fair chance to either kill Morathi or Malekith...cause nothing less would be of same scale.

Delolith

You can have Malekith, Morathi lives. I'd actually love for her to betray him and sacrifice him to the High Elves, having her become the Witch Queen ;D.

Sethno

10-17-2007, 02:38 PM

So skillwise, I think that Teclis and Tyrion both beat him in their respective fields. Morathi, while powerful, doesn't equal her son in either, but she is a force in her own right. Also, she is the master of manipulation, but I remember reading a story where Anith Anar, the Shadow King (sp?) had snuck into Naggaroth and danced with her. My point; no character is infallible and there's someone always out there who can trump em. :smile:What makes you so sure about Malekith > Morathi? All the lore that I've read about Malekith and Morathi make it quite clear to me that Morathi is in fact more powerful then Malekith and is the true leader of the Dark Elves. I mean she did teach him the ways of magic...and probably some other things too :P

What makes you think the apprentice has surpassed the teacher? Just curious!

-Sethno

Gaazruk

10-17-2007, 03:42 PM

What makes you so sure about Malekith > Morathi? All the lore that I've read about Malekith and Morathi make it quite clear to me that Morathi is in fact more powerful then Malekith and is the true leader of the Dark Elves. I mean she did teach him the ways of magic...and probably some other things too :P

What makes you think the apprentice has surpassed the teacher? Just curious!

-Sethno
While Morathi may hold an edge at sorcery, Malekith uses Sorcery and is a master swordsman. Sometimes the Jack of All Trades can trump the Ace.

Captbigbeard

10-17-2007, 04:39 PM

Let us not forget, Teclis didn't know if he could beat Gotrek in a one on one fight.

Sethno

10-17-2007, 04:45 PM

While Morathi may hold an edge at sorcery, Malekith uses Sorcery and is a master swordsman. Sometimes the Jack of All Trades can trump the Ace.

Morathi is a Witch Elf, she can do fine in melee combat. She wields a spear if I remember correctly...I forget the name of it though. :|

-Sethno

Gaazruk

10-17-2007, 04:57 PM

Morathi is a Witch Elf, she can do fine in melee combat. She wields a spear if I remember correctly...I forget the name of it though. :|

-Sethno
She is FINE in combat not Masterful.

Zihark

10-17-2007, 05:37 PM

Morathi is a Witch Elf, she can do fine in melee combat. She wields a spear if I remember correctly...I forget the name of it though. :|

-Sethno

It's called heartrender ;). And im quite sure that teclis would beat Morathi in a singel 1 on 1 magic duel, but who is talking about fair anyway? Morathi is much, much more capable in close combat then Teclis will ever be, and let's not forget that she have her dark pegasus Sulephet with her aswell.

If teclis comes in close combat against Morathi, he will loose, for sure. Even more so since she have mastered the art of impaling her opponent at her spear while chargining against them with a singel blow, meaning If morathi get's the chance to charge at him, he might be dead before he realize it

Vaeronthar

10-17-2007, 05:43 PM

Let us not forget, Teclis didn't know if he could beat Gotrek in a one on one fight.
All WH fiction is written from a biased point of view. Thusly, this is immaterial as the factual nature of it is reputable.

For the record, I really wasn't trying to be pretentious. It just takes several little words to say what the big ones said.

Captbigbeard

10-17-2007, 05:58 PM

All WH fiction is written from a biased point of view. Thusly, this is immaterial as the factual nature of it is reputable.

For the record, I really wasn't trying to be pretentious. It just takes several little words to say what the big ones said.

It was from teclis's view though. Not felix's.

Festo

10-17-2007, 06:37 PM

I don't think most of your examples are really the same;

Or what if Star Wars Galaxies let you go and murder Chewbacca?

-It would be stupid, because Chewbacca is alive in the next films

Here's the difference however, ignoring the expanded universe for a second, I'm going to change your question;

What if SWG took place after the 6th movie and they let you murder Chewbacca?

-I would be fine with it, because the future is now up to us, fake or not. There's no existing standard of future events to hold to.

WAR takes place, essentially, at the end of the timeline of events in Warhammer. They're already splitting off into separate universe with the fact that in WAR's timeline - the Storm of Chaos doesn't, and isn't going to, happen. The Age of Reckoning is essentially replacing the Storm of Chaos and the lore of this "pocket-dimension" is going in a different direction.

So no, it isn't the same as Dwarfs pink, and giving Greenskins wings. Because neither of those exist in the history of Warhammer, which is behind WAR. However, no one knows what will happen on the 100th day of the Age of Reckoning. Teclis could very well die that day.

you know there are star wars books in the triple digits that take place after the 6th movie and btw chewbacca died

star wars books > crappy movies imo

Vaeronthar

10-17-2007, 07:13 PM

It was from teclis's view though. Not felix's.Right, then. You have any salt for my foot?

Thoden Firehammer

10-17-2007, 07:19 PM

Right, then. You have any salt for my foot?

No, you're going to have to eat it cold, I had mine cold a few times, tastes alright XD

Vaeronthar

10-17-2007, 07:27 PM

Right, then.

*Bites deep*

Tastes like pennies.

Feigro

10-17-2007, 07:46 PM

you know there are star wars books in the triple digits that take place after the 6th movie and btw chewbacca died

star wars books > crappy movies imo

Here's the difference however, ignoring the expanded universe for a second, I'm going to change your question;

(ten characters)

Captbigbeard

10-17-2007, 08:54 PM

Right, then.

*Bites deep*

Tastes like pennies.

Lucky, my foot tastes like dead fungus wraped in rotten hamster flesh.

Vaeronthar

10-17-2007, 08:56 PM

It's because I groom myself meticulously, to the point where it's almsot a form of meditation. I don't get fungus. Ever.

Terridan

10-18-2007, 02:24 AM

What makes you so sure about Malekith > Morathi? All the lore that I've read about Malekith and Morathi make it quite clear to me that Morathi is in fact more powerful then Malekith and is the true leader of the Dark Elves. I mean she did teach him the ways of magic...and probably some other things too :P

What makes you think the apprentice has surpassed the teacher? Just curious!

-Sethno

Misunderstanding on my part then, I was under the belief that Malekith was the stronger of the two in magic as well. :)

Lord Tareq

10-18-2007, 02:45 AM

Misunderstanding on my part then, I was under the belief that Malekith was the stronger of the two in magic as well. :)

Fluffwise he should indeed be stronger or at the very least equal, mainly because he wears the circlet of iron, one of the most potent magical items in the warhammer world (completely left out of his TT rules by GW). However Morathi is about as good, and would probably be better if he didn't have that talisman.
Malekith is an excellent melee fighter as well, but his main advantage is his strategical insight, he is a master tactician. Even before the sundering he was the commander of the entire army of Ulthuan, and fought together with the armies of the dwarfs against the forces of Chaos (he actually befriended Snorri Whitebeard, the high king of the dwarves, and was a honoured guest at the dwarven court). He is the longest lived general in all of Warhammer.

Atheis Kurayami

10-18-2007, 05:33 AM

Tareq you forgot about the lizardmen, they are far older than Malekith.

Gaazruk

10-18-2007, 12:02 PM

It was from teclis's view though. Not felix's.
That doesnt mean the author isnt biased.

Asuril

10-19-2007, 02:52 PM

Asuril, i can see what your saying but wouldnt you want the chance to defend teclis against us? or the chance to kill archeon / malekith? Plus i dont think it will be perma death...more like we drive off teclis( or anyone else for that matter) and he flees leaving behind some fat lewt !

I'm going destruction, so no thanks on the defense. And this is what I'm hoping for; that at the end of the battle the character teleports out, or is stunned, whatever, and an ally saves him.

Hmm...let me see. No, there is indeed no difference between killing Teclis in the reallife TT game, and killing him in a little virtual character game that is basically a mass of pixels and data you manipulate by your actions, resulting in an image being projected on your screen.

Right, and books are just paper and ink. Grow up; you're not that stupid.

Now then, killing him in an MMO... would you rather kill "Teclis' Magical Clone #843" instead of fighting the real deal? If it's the Lore behind the killing that's bothering you, think of the fact that he could just be left for dead, horribly wounded, or it was some sort of spell that gave him a double. With someone of his power level, he's going to have an escape hatch even if you do beat him.

I'm hoping that we actually see him use the escape hatch. Otherwise, we'll have a "Teclic Magical Clone #843" case, as you put it. If everyone goes with their group to the dungeon and kills him, then all he is is a punching bag for players, rather than a character. Afterall, he's not so tough, me and my guild killed him 3 times last week! And we'll keep going back to kill his Magical Clones again and again.

Yeah, that's fluffy.

Getting off topic there, but final thoughts. I think our characters are supposed to be more than generic. If you look at the TT equivolents that the classes are based on, I would put our characters as the champions for said units, while at the highest level we're rivals for the strongest of the army generals without going into special characters.

One of the most important aspects of the Warhammer setting is the mighty heroes that lead the different factions. By taking away their majesty by allowing a bunch of players to kill them in a dungeon, the setting within the MMO becomes less interesting. Why would anyone go "Ooo, that's Teclis, he's so cool!" if they know that he's killable in one of the Raid Dungeons?

I think if he teleported away and denied the killing blow, only to return again tomorrow, he would preserve not only his dignity but the sense that he's something greater than the players. And I think that is what is really important.

Thoden Firehammer

10-19-2007, 02:57 PM

EDIT, nevermind

Fusko

10-19-2007, 04:08 PM

I'd rather kill Tyrion. He's a chump.

Lucrece

10-19-2007, 04:36 PM

I'd rather kill Tyrion. He's a chump.

I couldn't agree more. He simply nauseates me; I've always disliked the Golden Boys.

Lord Tareq

10-20-2007, 08:19 AM

Right, and books are just paper and ink. Grow up; you're not that stupid.

Can you even read?

Snorri

10-20-2007, 09:14 AM

Oh noes!! Teclis bleeds!!

I doubt he will "die" in WaR, he will just be "KOed" so-to-speak. :-)
Just like many other lore-heroes who will be present in the game.

And this is what I'm hoping for; that at the end of the battle the character teleports out, or is stunned, whatever, and an ally saves him.
Yes, that is the approach I imagine Mythic will take.

For example: dwarfs dragging a stunned Captain Long Drong from the fray.
Elfs forming protective circles around the fallen Teclis
Or even Teclis shielding himself in some manner and teleporting away.
Etc.

Asuril

10-20-2007, 03:35 PM

Can you even read?

No, every day Thoden comes over and reads allowed inane forum posts like yours so that I can waste my time replying to them.

Okay okay, I apologize. Enough of this stupid bickering.

If I didn't get your point, my bad. Care to try explaining it to me?

Misanthrope Prime

10-20-2007, 10:07 PM

I, personally, am sick of the LAWLZ LOOKIT ME IMMA TEH POWURFUL kind of characters, without any significant flaws. Okay, he's weak, big deal. We all know that power corrupts, if not literally turning him to chaos, at least give him some form of insanity to make him less benevolent. He's a one point five dimensional character, and should die for that.

Laser

10-21-2007, 02:10 AM

.. that survived the war and fled.. now which chaos god would not kill him after this???
The chaos gods wouldn't let one of there most chosen person just be killed off hand by them.

Like abbadon ( from 40k) he has had 12 black crusades and has lost all of them and he hasn't been mutated into a mewling spawn

oh and killing Teclis out right in a raid is one step away from killing Gotrek

Lord Tareq

10-21-2007, 02:49 AM

There has been hinted that gotrek&felix are special raid bosses found in the inn of the dwarven capital

Snorri

10-21-2007, 08:52 AM

Aye, I hope many fluff characters are present in WaR. It'll be fun to fight along side / try and splatter heroes from the warhammer lore.

But I hope that we cannot "kill" these characters, merely KO them in some manner (as explained before) and maybe receive some sort of RvR reward for killing such a worthwhile opponent - which could be collected from a high ranking NPC back in your capital.

This way you don't get said lore-character's powerful fluff items, said famous lore character doesn't actually die, and you still get a reward for managing to defeat them.

Captbigbeard

10-21-2007, 03:24 PM

Although I don't like the idea of a major character constantly dieing everytime some group enters his/hers instance, I don't like the idea of having all these major characters some how escape fate everytime either.

Since it's a game and dosen't follow lore 100%, I suppose I would rather have the chance of killing and looting these major chars over the other options. It would be fun to challenge the likes of G&F or Teclis! I would be disapointed if after a long hard fight they escaped.

wellsy

10-21-2007, 11:21 PM

Captbigbeard

10-22-2007, 04:29 AM

And left the Witch Elves in the group better bikinis? Oh come one now... :razz:

We all know Gotrek is sporting a leapord banana hammock

Snorri

10-22-2007, 08:37 AM

We all know Gotrek is sporting a leapord banana hammock
Lol :D

I hear what your saying Cap'n, narrowly cheating defeat every time is also a tad unrealistic. But I'd say its better than having Gotrek/Teclis/etc brutally murdered every time a large gang of opponents rampage into them. Plus, as said by Wellsy, its more realistic to collect a reward from a high ranking NPC than to loot witch-elf compatible clothing fro Gotrek's person. Or a large choppa (ooer innuendo obviously) from Teclis's corpse.

Bargad

10-22-2007, 08:44 AM

Pangscar

10-22-2007, 09:11 AM

Well truth is guys that the majority of people who will play this game give the lore just a passing thought at best and the idea of not being able to actually kill bosses will be ridiculous. You will need to work it out in your head somehow and/or RP it for yourself, besides its not like that character gets permanently removed for the game or anything. Hopefully the emphasis of the game is the RvR system and not "defeating" bosses. But Mythic has said we will be able to face certain main characters as boss fights and not being able to kill them would make said encounters hardly played and mostly ignored, farmed for the loot perhaps then ignored.

Snorri

10-22-2007, 01:57 PM

I think what should happen is you knock him or her unconscious, loot them and then a whole new set of Guards spawn, especially around the Raid Boss. That would mean killing fluff characters is impossible, but defeating them means the end of the raid.

To prevent people just avoiding the Boss, send him out into the city, so that they HAVe to face him if they want to survive.

I agree with that, other than the looting.
I still say you should be rewarded back in your capital city, given a piece of equipment from a high ranking NPC.

Or, if you do loot the fluff character, then for some reason their powerful items from the lore are impossible to pick up. However, the first method is more believable I feel.

Pangscar:
- The fights would not be ignored if the rewards were profitable, plus the fights would still be grand challenged. Maybe its not just loot you receive but some form of recognition amongst your faction.
- I am aware most people won;t give a flying fart about the lore. The only reason I suggest KOing is that it offers an easy excuse as to why a desto player couldn't loot, say, Gotrek's axe from his very dead corpse. I don't care if some people don't care about the lore - such items shouldn't be held by players, it would be like farting in the face of warhammer. The other alternative is to allow the heroes to be slain, but for some strange reason make their lore-items unlootable.