Worth of a Keep/Objective [Archive]

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12-03-2008, 10:09 AM

Was hoping someone might be able to help me find some info...

What I'm looking for is...
If you take a keep PvE with no RvR kills what % of victory points do you gain (either as a percentage where 100 is to cap the zone or through the 150 to cap that Mythic uses). Likewise I want to know the same for objectives.

Even if you only have a vague idea please share it so I can get a general consesus. if it comes down to it a rough estimate would work for me.

Durgo

12-11-2008, 07:35 AM

Near as I can tell (and I'm still trying to figure it all out myself), the Keeps add 15 to your VP total (out of 100, using the Victory Points mod) and the BO's add 10 each. There also seems to be a temporary VP boost you get shortly after capping the BO's which can bring your total to around 80. If you quickly farm PQ's, you can get another 15. The last 5 seem to come from scenarios and you need those to pop very quickly as well. They seem to add about 3 each. There's another non-decaying 3 points you can get from locking T3.

melveth

12-16-2008, 12:05 PM

As I understand it, T2 to 4 work as follows (raw values, not percentages):

50 points always split between the two sides:

22 : 2 keeps @ 11 points
16: 4 BOs @ 4 points
3: if lower tier zone is controlled
9: main zone scenario win/loss record (starts even, 1 point switches owner per win, or per 15 minutes when only one side has a full queue)

The other 50 points are the activity points which go up as you do stuff and decay down at a regular (but pretty fast) rate . For these points, it doesn't actually matter how many the other side is getting - the points they gain are taken from the neutral pool, not from you.

Known ways of getting activity points:

1: ~20 RvR, T1-3 or 18-man scenario kills
1:~100 T4 12-man scenario kills
1: ~5 PQs
there will be others, like normal quests and spillover from lower tiers, but they are hard to quantify. A rule of thumb is every 6 people on your side is worth an activity point, providing they are not sitting around doing nothing.

Activity points last at most 2 hours from when they are earnt, losing value before then.

All the control points and 16 activity points locks the zone (66% on the default UI bar, 100% on VictoryPoints addon). For every missing control point, you need an extra activity point.

T1 is slightly different , as there are no keeps or lower tiers. There are 4 BOs worth 10 points each, and 9 points for scenario wins.

You can see a log of this here:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215115

Values are generated by a custom addon equivalent to the macro:

/script EA_ChatWindow.Print(towstring(GetCampaignZoneData( GameData.Player.zone).controlPoints[GameData.Realm.NONE]), SystemData.ChatLogFilters.CHANNEL_9)

melveth

12-20-2008, 07:16 PM

Unscaled values from api, O is order, D is dest, N is neutral - the gap between the red and blue bars, which goes down based on zone activity.

1. fortress siege times out, zone becomes contested
===================================
[08/12/20][22:15:00] Thunder Mountain N:56 O:05 D:02
[08/12/20][22:15:01] Thunder Mountain N:56 O:16 D:12
[08/12/20][22:15:03] Thunder Mountain N:51 O:21 D:12

2. scenario queues start up
=================
[08/12/20][22:15:11] Thunder Mountain N:48 O:17 D:23
[08/12/20][22:15:40] Thunder Mountain N:47 O:16 D:29
[08/12/20][22:17:29] Thunder Mountain N:46 O:17 D:31
[08/12/20][22:19:40] Thunder Mountain N:47 O:20 D:32
[08/12/20][22:21:10] Thunder Mountain N:46 O:21 D:31

3. dest captures 2nd keep
================
[08/12/20][22:22:11] Thunder Mountain N:46 O:11 D:41

4. both queues (Logrim and Thunder) firing fast, some retaking of BOs, but no big fights
=================
[08/12/20][22:23:32] Thunder Mountain N:46 O:11 D:42
[08/12/20][22:26:15] Thunder Mountain N:44 O:12 D:42
[08/12/20][22:27:27] Thunder Mountain N:44 O:12 D:43
[08/12/20][22:30:02] Thunder Mountain N:44 O:11 D:44
[08/12/20][22:31:24] Thunder Mountain N:36 O:18 D:45
[08/12/20][22:38:25] Thunder Mountain N:31 O:22 D:46
[08/12/20][22:38:46] Thunder Mountain N:29 O:21 D:49
[08/12/20][22:42:15] Thunder Mountain N:28 O:25 D:45
[08/12/20][22:52:32] Thunder Mountain N:26 O:24 D:49
[08/12/20][22:54:28] Thunder Mountain N:25 O:24 D:50
[08/12/20][22:59:30] Thunder Mountain N:25 O:20 D:53
[08/12/20][23:00:53] Thunder Mountain N:23 O:20 D:56
[08/12/20][23:05:24] Thunder Mountain N:22 O:20 D:57
[08/12/20][23:06:48] Thunder Mountain N:22 O:19 D:58
[08/12/20][23:14:01] Thunder Mountain N:21 O:22 D:55
[08/12/20][23:14:46] Thunder Mountain N:21 O:19 D:58
[08/12/20][23:19:37] Thunder Mountain N:21 O:21 D:56
[08/12/20][23:21:38] Thunder Mountain N:20 O:24 D:54
[08/12/20][23:22:29] Thunder Mountain N:20 O:24 D:55
[08/12/20][23:26:41] Thunder Mountain N:21 O:23 D:54
[08/12/20][23:27:56] Thunder Mountain N:21 O:22 D:55
[08/12/20][23:29:48] Thunder Mountain N:21 O:23 D:55
[08/12/20][23:30:56] Thunder Mountain N:20 O:26 D:52
[08/12/20][23:32:53] Thunder Mountain N:21 O:25 D:53
[08/12/20][23:35:49] Thunder Mountain N:20 O:28 D:51
[08/12/20][23:41:41] Thunder Mountain N:20 O:25 D:53
[08/12/20][23:42:26] Thunder Mountain N:19 O:27 D:52
[08/12/20][23:48:14] Thunder Mountain N:18 O:28 D:52
[08/12/20][23:50:53] Thunder Mountain N:17 O:28 D:54
[08/12/20][23:52:59] Thunder Mountain N:18 O:21 D:60

5. no order in zone, but queues still firing
==========================
[08/12/20][23:55:39] Thunder Mountain N:17 O:21 D:61
[08/12/21][00:06:01] Thunder Mountain N:16 O:20 D:63
[08/12/21][00:07:54] Thunder Mountain N:16 O:19 D:64

Zone locked here, 1h 45 min after it became contested. Pretty sure the key to the fast lock is that both scenarios, escpecially the 12 man one, were adding kill points, dropping 'N'. Even though there was no consistent winner in scenarios, owning both keeps and all BOs was always going to mean winning sooner or later, as soon as there was a streak of wins, or the queue became empty on the other side.

TLDR version: zones with two scenarios are trivial to capture (presumably except Dragonwake pre-patch, which was near-impossible). You can't 'defend by not defending' them unless you have mind control rays that can persuade everyone on your side to not hit 'join all'.

melveth

01-10-2009, 02:08 PM

post 1.1 patch update:

Known ways of getting activity points:

1: ~20 RvR or scenario kills
1: ~5 PQs

All scenarios are now equal for giving VPs. As everyone dies far more often in scenarios that RVR, this means the rate at which people die in scenarios is the main issue for zone control. 3 scenario wins within an hour, with 100 kills in each, is generally enough to capture a zone if both keeps and all BOs are held. If necessary, you can substitute lower tier control or mass PQs for one of the scenario wins or BOs.

Garthilk

01-11-2009, 12:20 AM

Excellent post. Thanks for this, I hope to see more analysis like this.

GAFcaster

01-11-2009, 07:29 AM

awesome Melveth, thanks for that.
a few questions

where did you find the values of 20 RvR/Scenario kills or 5 PQs for VPs?

and can you control multiple lower tiers to help control tier 4?

does each stage of a PQ contribute, or only a completed PQ?

GAFcaster

01-11-2009, 07:58 AM

actually the more i read this the more i realize how awesome and how important this article is for WAR players.

very very good work and my thanks man ;D

I'm going to cite you in a lagwar article ;)

Smasher78

01-11-2009, 11:21 AM

Does this mean that the single-Scenario zones in T4 (IE, the ones adjacent to forts) are at greater risk of being 'bottlenecked' toward the end of the locking effort due to only having one scenario to generate VP with instead of two?

melveth

01-14-2009, 04:15 PM

Hard to set up a controlled experiment to tie down exact VP values for kills and quests, but I am pretty sure each VP takes between 20-50 kills, and more than 3 PQs. It may be more complicated than a flat value, but that's about the order of magnitude involved - a 100-kill scenario gets you 3-6 activity VP, 3-4 such scenarios before any points decay (i.e. < 1 hour) and the zone is up for capture.

And yes, the zones before the fortress are harder to capture, especailly when there are smaller, or more popular, scenarios still available. On my server, we pretty much always take Dragonwake first: this pushes people out of Serpent's into other scenarios.

On the other hand, when you knock out one pairing (by taking a fort), everything becomes easier as people are split between fewer scenarios.

pirouni

01-15-2009, 03:52 AM

keeps worth 15vp and bos 5vp and thats what i see with realmstatus addon.

on my server destro had all keeps and bos and 400-150 kills in orvr for destro in dw for an hour and we barely reached 88-90vps.

but no info about scenarios.

melveth

01-15-2009, 05:52 AM

pirouni

01-15-2009, 06:55 AM

RealmStatus, for reasons best known to its author, divides VP values by 0.66 before displaying them.

90 * 0.66 = 59.4.

Assuming you held all keeps and BOs, you had somewhere between 38 and 50 static VPs, depending on lower tier status and scenario win/loss record.

400 kills per hour @ 20 kph/vp = 20 VP, 38 + 20 = 58.
400 kills per hour @ 50 kph/vp = 8 VP, 50 + 8 = 58.

So that result matches pretty much exactly, but doesn't help tie down the kills-per-hour-per-VP value any more closely.

what you posted makes no sense.

i was using victory points addon but it was not accurate, it kept showing 1vp less for the winning side.
i was referring to realm status feature announcing the ups and downs of the vps in all t4 zones.

its certain that keeps worth 15vps and bos 5.
in a non active zone vps for the side with all bo and keeps can reach low to 55..
and lower zones dont contribute to t4 vps.
i cant understand where these 5 come from.
i cant measure how many points are generated for orvr kills

melveth

01-15-2009, 08:57 AM

what you posted makes no sense.

i was using victory points addon but it was not accurate, it kept showing 1vp less for the winning side.
i was referring to realm status feature announcing the ups and downs of the vps in all t4 zones.

Both of those addons scale the victory points returned by the API - as you discovered, they do this slightly differently. Until someone releases an addon that display accurate values, it is better to use the macro:

/script EA_ChatWindow.Print(towstring(GetCampaignZoneData( GameData.Player.zone).controlPoints[GameData.Realm.NONE] .. " " .. GetCampaignZoneData( GameData.Player.zone).controlPoints[GameData.Realm.ORDER]), SystemData.ChatLogFilters.CHANNEL_9)

its certain that keeps worth 15vps and bos 5.

No, those are the values reported by the addons that do scaling - you would need to multiply by whatever scale factor your addon is using to see the true value.

in a non active zone vps for the side with all bo and keeps can reach low to 55..

55 * .67 = 37 VPs = 2 keeps@11 + 4 BOs@4 (+/- 1, which is as close as you are going to get as the server doesn't report fractions)

and lower zones don't contribute to t4 vps.

They definitely do, although less than they did - you can always see T4 VPs jump by 1 when a t3 keep is taken. I suspect T3 kills also count for something - one reason elf zones are so easy to lock is probably all the kills in Tor Anroc.

pirouni

01-15-2009, 09:42 AM

realm status works more accurate and 99% of the players consider locking a zone at 100vps.

ppl on my server can predict zone lock by adding the static vp and we are pretty much correct.

the problem is that realms are given or taken away vps for actions which we are not aware or we cant monitor.

Munahif

01-17-2009, 03:39 PM

Both of those addons scale the victory points returned by the API - as you discovered, they do this slightly differently. Until someone releases an addon that display accurate values, it is better to use the macro:

/script EA_ChatWindow.Print(towstring(GetCampaignZoneData( GameData.Player.zone).controlPoints[GameData.Realm.NONE] .. " " .. GetCampaignZoneData( GameData.Player.zone).controlPoints[GameData.Realm.ORDER]), SystemData.ChatLogFilters.CHANNEL_9)

No, those are the values reported by the addons that do scaling - you would need to multiply by whatever scale factor your addon is using to see the true value.

55 * .67 = 37 VPs = 2 keeps@11 + 4 BOs@4 (+/- 1, which is as close as you are going to get as the server doesn't report fractions)

They definitely do, although less than they did - you can always see T4 VPs jump by 1 when a t3 keep is taken. I suspect T3 kills also count for something - one reason elf zones are so easy to lock is probably all the kills in Tor Anroc.

BOs can be worth between 3 and 8 VP (using realmstatus), depending on how much ORvR has taken place around it before capture in the last few hours (exact # unknown). Keeps can be worth between 14 and 20 VP (using realmstatus), depending on how much ORvR has taken place around and inside it before capture in the last few hours. People use realmstatus because 1-100 is easier to identify and plan around than 0-66. That said, realmstatus zones lock at 97 VP.

In addition; scenarios wins give a lot of VP initially, but the more you play them the less you get (trailing off to 1 per win using realmstatus). The key to controlling that pool is to win the first few before the other faction knows a flip is taking place. You also only get VP for completing "Hard" PQs (at least in my experience, this may not be correct).

You need to be careful about posting "this is how zone flips work" posts, when you don't know the actual mechanics. And people using victorypoints addon - your #s are off by 1 when you get above ~50; go grab realmstatus.

Oh and about decay; it increases to ticks of 3 or more when you've had more than mid-80s VP for more than an hour or two in my experience. There's some kind of "you've been here to long its not happening" decay function; on Sylvania we've randomly lost 5 VP for no reason on several occasions after trying to flip a zone for an extended period of time. Mythic really needs to come out and explain the exact mechanics.

GAFcaster

01-17-2009, 05:06 PM

Munahif

01-17-2009, 08:50 PM

the BOs/Keeps arent changed in value, its the kills around them that appear to change the value for the cap time, i dont think those values are inaccurate for BOs and Keeps

Do you have any info about Scenario wins? initial wins are worth how much? i could see this being inaccurate.

can you do anything to quantify the rate of decay?

Re: bo/keep value - there are actually two ORvR pools of VP. The first one is your skirmish RvR, crossed swords on the map. The second pool is only availabe from fighting around a BO or Keep; thus, although you are correct that its the activity around them that changes the value, you need this to occur near those locations (and the BO/keep to trade hands) to have your "non-skirmish VP" pool increased. This can be verified because if you are attacking a BO or keep and kill many many many of the opposing faction but do not take the objective you are never rewarded VP (only after it changes hands as part of the bo/keep). There is some sort of static "the bo/keep is worth x and you get y amount bonus from nearby activity", which I believe to be 3 for BOs and 14 for keeps (keep may be lower).

Re: scenarios - I've seen scenarios go as high as 9 points/win when starting out, trickling down to 3. Now, this could be that the skirmish vp pool being filled up by scen kills, but I'm not sure because we've had activity in a zone and still had the first scen win grant 8-9 points. Again, Mythic really needs a grab bag about all this crap (the existing one is horridly outdated and in some cases outright incorrect, think its grab bag 3 or 4?).

Re: decay - starts out about 1 point/15m ish maybe? seen it go as high as 3pts two hours into a flip. I've never taken the time to count the exact interval. Also, as you approach your zone flip the other realm may also steal your skirmish rvr pool from kills as they show up, which is not decay, but comes in decay-like numbers - so its hard to keep track.

GAFcaster

01-18-2009, 08:02 AM

hmm, i'll have to check out that BFO/keep skirmish 2 pool thing. thats a hard thing to check... :/ but thanks for posting and helping to straighten this out! :D

i agree mythic needs to put this information out, it shouldnt have to be a scientific investigation by the players.

if anybody else has additional helpful information about this, please! post! specific numbers, SS examples, VP logs, even anecdotes like Munahif's all contribute to the discussion and the solution.

GAFcaster

01-18-2009, 10:53 AM

its gonna change soon.. a new addition to the formula.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvHFxbuQyuA

Munahif

01-18-2009, 04:03 PM

its gonna change soon.. a new addition to the formula.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvHFxbuQyuA

Not sure this is going to change the forumula so much as removing decay and/or giving you VP for segments of time you own everything. That said; many things Paul have talked about on ended up being nothing like they were described on his blog, so I'll wait for the Herald post before I believe a word of it.

melveth

01-20-2009, 06:23 PM

BOs can be worth between 3 and 8 VP (using realmstatus), depending on how much ORvR has taken place around it before capture in the last few hours (exact # unknown).

I think you are right - something like that is going on. Perhaps, if you own a BO, you get credit for kills near it. If you lose the BO, you lose not only the raw BO points but all accumulated kill points - they go back to the neutral pool.

Here are some log fragments of BO takes (unscaled values as always):

1. Unopposed take, no recent nearby fighting
[23:10:07] Kadrin Valley N:23 O:18 D:57
[23:13:26] Kadrin Valley N:23 O:15 D:60

Dest gain 3, order lose 3.

2. Unnoposed take, but 30 minutes fighting nearby beforehand
[23:32:15] Kadrin Valley N:25 O:12 D:61
[23:41:38] Kadrin Valley N:29 O:15 D:55

Order gained 3, but dest lost 6. Neutral pool increases correspondingly.

3. Opposed take, ~2wb a side
[21:27:03] Praag N:16 O:39 D:39
[21:29:14] Praag N:16 O:38 D:40
[21:30:17] Praag N:17 O:38 D:40
[21:31:04] Praag N:17 O:41 D:36
[21:32:53] Praag N:17 O:42 D:36

Initially defending, dest gain 1, presumably from kills. At time of capture, O gain 3, dest lose 4. Wiping out survivors, O then gain 1.

When the BO was later lost, order lost 4 points, supporting this theory.

However, I don't think anything similar is true for keeps. A keep loss loses you 11 points, never any more, never any less. Keep defence doesn't even seem to give you kill credit - you can sit in the lord room and wipe 300 attackers at your tank wall, VPs won't budge.

Mythic really needs to come out and explain the exact mechanics.

Quoted for truth.

melveth

01-31-2009, 05:22 AM

Benji

02-02-2009, 11:59 PM

On http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/110110942/p2, a mythic guy reported the detailed stats of the reikland zone:

Overall: Order 45% / Destruction 6 %
Scenario: Order 0 % / Destruction 0%
BO/Keeps: Order 100% Destruction 0%
Skirmish: Order 0 % / Destruction .1%
PvE: Order 57% / Destruction 42%

The overall values look like raw VPs used by the game, not the scaled values addons use. The interesting things is the split into 4 different pool values.

Both sides have no scenario points (they said no Reikland hills fired for a week, so either the scenario server for the zone is down, or no-one plays it).

Order with 100% objectives have at least 2x11 + 4*3 = 34 VP.

So 57% of the PvE pool is worth at most 11VP, 42% of the PvE pool is at most 6 VP. That makes the total size of the PvE pool is at most 14 VP.

From the way they report it, it looks like it gets split between both sides proportionately. This would mean it can be either very hard or very easy to earn PvE points, depending on what the other side is doing.

For skirmish, it looks much more like both sides each have their own pool that changes size as kills happen.

Well, you're assuming it's an either or % rather than a % of the total either side is allowed for that pool. It would have been an answer had it been say, 60 and 50 for the PVE pool, but at 99% you don't know whether there's 1% uncontested or if the pools aren't contested(Outside of the Objective pool, obviously)

Also, considering they have 100% Objectives, that means they'd have 2 keeps and 4 BO's, for 38 VP from it.

Honestly, though, I'm betting the server-reported data is just incorrect, since we know for a fact that zones are bugged on several servers so that the scenarios don't count for VP because the zone isn't being viewed as contested by the game.

melveth

03-04-2009, 01:57 PM

Mythic q&A on VPs:

Q: We just did 5 runs of a PQ and the PvE pool has barely moved?what?s going on there?

A: Each Zone Control pool has various weights associated with it to determine its importance in the over all Victory Point total. These pools also have a neutral pool to limit the ?flip flopping? of dominance in a single area of Zone Control (except for BOs and Keeps which are binary). Currently the weights of each pool are as follows:

Tier 1: Scenario - 40%, Objectives 40%, Skirmish 10%, PvE 10%
Tiers 2 and 3: Scenario - 35%, Objectives 35%, Skirmish 10%, PvE 10%, Prior Zone 10%
Tier 4: Scenario - 25%, Objectives 45%, Skirmish 20%, PvE 5%, Prior Zone 5%"

The API call to get the extended VP information is GetZoneControlDetailAmounts(realm).