Expectation for the Career

[Lucrece]

What do you expect of this career judging from the available information?

Here are my expectations:

1- I expect this career, that when in melee range, will have the highest single target dps and burst capability out of all melee DPS. Seeing how we, along with the witch hunter, have the lowest armor type out of all melee DPS careers (and no, evasion mechanisms for mitigation have shown to be the most disliked and ineffective in group pvp, where randomness is minimized for competition purposes), and that, unlike the witch hunter, we do not have any ranged damaged capabilities like the witch hunter's guns, I expect our returns to equal put the risks we take in by going into melee.

2- I expect the career to be highly mobile. It has been mentioned that Marauders use a tentacle to bring their targets back to them instead of the witch elf sprint; I find the tentacle to be highly superior, as sprinting can be stopped through snares and CC, while the tentacle works in a single move.

3- I expect utility in the form of strong snares/snare escape abilities and party boosts in the form of elixirs and whatnot. Marauders have 3 arm mutations that provide different utilities, namely one mutation for armored opponents, one for burst combo's, and one for AoE and knockdowns. So far I am fairly unimpressed by witch elf videos when compared to the new marauder videos that have come out.

The witch elf forum has been fairly dormant for a while, and the sharing of some ideas might help to get the good mood back on track. List your expectations and impressions so far with the witch elf in comparison to the other DPS careers.

P.S. Please change the melee stances of witch elves; they are rather lanky. Also, better hairstyles than the one on the video; I could barely see any detail or flow to the hair ;p.

[Freax]

You expect pretty much everything that we already know.

[Pandemonium]

Really you pretty much covered everything that has been told to us.

[Lucrece]

It's not what you just have been told. I am seeking opinions and views on how you want them to be, how they are turning out to your expectations, and what do you think of them in comparison to the other melee DPS careers ;p.;)

For example, I forgot to say that they seem to be lacking any unique flash of their own. Orcs berserk, marauders mutate; they have flashy moves and AoE's. I only see a misrepresented witch elf that instead of appearing a berserker in demeanor, they are pictured as rogue-like with such current combat positions and colorless special abilities.

[Lord Tareq]

I wouldn't worry too much about hairstyles, I'm sure hair can be customized when you create your character.

What I expect of witch elves is:

- fast low damage attacks, perhaps less burst damage then say a hammerer, but higher dps. In fact, I expect them to have the highest single target dps of all classes.

- Many dirty fighting "tricks" like scratch in the face to blind or kick in the groin to stun

- Different kinds of elixirs and poisons like in the TT, for example manbane poison that makes your attacks deal more damage the higher health a target has, black lotus poison that temporary removes stats and causes the victim to hallucinate, etc..

- Some anti-magic abilities like in the trailer, would love to see them deflect a fireball :p

- Some kind of self-heal ability when they kill a victim and bathe in its blood, gaining the favour of Khaine ;)

[Xurré]

I expect a class that makes lots of little number appear in very rapid succession above the heads of the enemies. I.e. the class with by far the fastest attacks, with each single attack being much weaker than the single attacks of other damage classes, but doing a lot more of them to even, perhaps, end up with a higher DPS.

I expect a class with nasty debuffs which will make enemy players want to stay well clear of them.

I expect a nimble class (nimble mynx ;)) that's hard to pin down in one place. A class which dances all around the enemy unit, falling back and returning from an unexpected angle. Seeing a Witch Elf at play should give one the impression of random chaotic frenzy. So any skill or ability which encourages the Witch Elf to stand still in one place is a bad one, while the one which encourages her to keep moving is good (I can see, for example, elixirs wearing off faster when standing still). This also means that I feel a Witch Elf should be able to attack while on the move (most of the time, in games, melee attacks tend to make the character stop moving).

Unfortunately I don't expect to see a lot of blood, but perhaps Mythic will be so kind as to provide some ini-setting which'll allow one to increase the amount of particles and make them stick to your model for longer (anyone who has played with the particle settings for Oblivion knows what I'm talking about :p ). I want my character to be continually coated in red. :twisted:


- Xurré

[Lucrece]

I expect a class that makes lots of little number appear in very rapid succession above the heads of the enemies. I.e. the class with by far the fastest attacks, with each single attack being much weaker than the single attacks of other damage classes, but doing a lot more of them to even, perhaps, end up with a higher DPS.

I expect a class with nasty debuffs which will make enemy players want to stay well clear of them.

I expect a nimble class (nimble mynx ;)) that's hard to pin down in one place. A class which dances all around the enemy unit, falling back and returning from an unexpected angle. Seeing a Witch Elf at play should give one the impression of random chaotic frenzy. So any skill or ability which encourages the Witch Elf to stand still in one place is a bad one, while the one which encourages her to keep moving is good (I can see, for example, elixirs wearing off faster when standing still). This also means that I feel a Witch Elf should be able to attack while on the move (most of the time, in games, melee attacks tend to make the character stop moving).

Unfortunately I don't expect to see a lot of blood, but perhaps Mythic will be so kind as to provide some ini-setting which'll allow one to increase the amount of particles and make them stick to your model for longer (anyone who has played with the particle settings for Oblivion knows what I'm talking about :p ). I want my character to be continually coated in red. :twisted:


- Xurré

Single highest sustained DPS is not enough with witch elves being the least armored and with no ranged capability like the witch hunter; we need the capability to have the highest on demand burst DPS to be viable, since we'll probably have to jump in, burst up, and back out pretty soon, or we'll get pounded to a pulp pretty soon, whereas the Choppa, Hammerer, Marauder, and HE DPS class will be able to last longer. That is, assuming each dps class truly gets different armor ratings from the other ones.

[nazgum]

personally from the description i took away that the witch elf may have the highest defense of the melee dps - ie good dodge to make up for poor armor

[Xurré]

Single highest sustained DPS is not enough with witch elves being the least armored and with no ranged capability like the witch hunter; we need the capability to have the highest on demand burst DPS to be viable, since we'll probably have to jump in, burst up, and back out pretty soon, or we'll get pounded to a pulp pretty soon, whereas the Choppa, Hammerer, Marauder, and HE DPS class will be able to last longer. That is, assuming each dps class truly gets different armor ratings from the other ones.
Well, least armored doesn't mean easiest to hit/kill. In fact, avoiding damage altogether seems better than trying to deal with damage. As such I expect them to have a high dodge-type defense where they're just very hard to hit (though if you do hit them they tend to go down fast). With this I also expect their armor to not add to their armor rating, but increase their ability to avoid hits.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the playstyle for Witch Elves included jumping in, hitting the enemy a few times, jumping out and focusing on defense for a bit (or moving on to the next target) while letting the poison do the work, then jumping back in again. Softening them up as it were.


- Xurré

[Lucrece]

Well, least armored doesn't mean easiest to hit/kill. In fact, avoiding damage altogether seems better than trying to deal with damage. As such I expect them to have a high dodge-type defense where they're just very hard to hit (though if you do hit them they tend to go down fast). With this I also expect their armor to not add to their armor rating, but increase their ability to avoid hits.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the playstyle for Witch Elves included jumping in, hitting the enemy a few times, jumping out and focusing on defense for a bit (or moving on to the next target) while letting the poison do the work, then jumping back in again. Softening them up as it were.


- Xurré

Well, this may be true. However, I hope the dodge/evasion system is designed in a way that is consistent and not relying on chance, otherwise witch elves will be dropped by competitive teams, as randomness is always sought to be eliminated on group PvP. Make it so that they have abilities like the ninjas in FFXI where they avoided damage by creating copies that increased their chance to be missed, although transform the ability into something more iconic of the witch elf. If not, a more armored DPS career will be chosen over them as they are more consistently healed and are less prone to falling to a focus fire train.

[Dyst]

I expect a class that is a little complicated to play well. The artistic design of this class seems to say stab-stab, yay, shake booty. I'm sure that will appeal to plenty of horny teenagers, therefore I hope actually playing this class will be more challenging. So basically it does not become the "noob class".

I hope it will not include all-too-irritating abilities like 10 second stuns, etc. In fact I hope it won't have too many stuns at all, and rather rely on clever positioning and vicious attacks applied at the right times/spots. And perhaps have some more involved mechanic regarding their abilities. Maybe something that can be used to help others as well, I don't know.

[Kaid]

Where have the said anything about increasing their dodge? I don't think it will be an inherent effect, perhaps armor bonuses will grant it then? I would personally have a 7/8 chance to lose a little life with armor than a 3/8 chance to lose alot of life with little armor. But of course the armor could be all the same value. Demon Empowered Bikini's anyone?

[Emeraldw99]

Highest Damage? If the class has "group" buffs then this is unlikely unless the other melee also posses group buffs. In most games (and so far war has given me no reason to think otherwise) the more group buffs a damage class has, the less personal damage they are given to offset their group buffs. Based on the footage I have seen so far their buffs are self based but as with everything, we can't be sure until we know more. Personally, I hope all 3 melee damage types are equal in damage over time with varying flavors.

Survival is going to be hard to call. With really good escape abilities, armor may not mean much at all.

[Gemini]

Highest Damage? If the class has "group" buffs then this is unlikely unless the other melee also posses group buffs. In most games (and so far war has given me no reason to think otherwise) the more group buffs a damage class has, the less personal damage they are given to offset their group buffs. Based on the footage I have seen so far their buffs are self based but as with everything, we can't be sure until we know more. Personally, I hope all 3 melee damage types are equal in damage over time with varying flavors.

Survival is going to be hard to call. With really good escape abilities, armor may not mean much at all.

What group buffs? I havn't seen any group buffs on the Witch Elf... seems kinda out of character to me. Sure ya got the right forum?

[Emeraldw99]

What group buffs? I havn't seen any group buffs on the Witch Elf... seems kinda out of character to me. Sure ya got the right forum?

Thats why I said "if" The only buff we've been given is a self buff but in the OP, he mentions party boosts. I was speaking from a conceptual standpoint as the group utility goes up, personal power (usually DPS) goes down. He said he wanted the highest sustained and highest Burst damage. I was giving a counterpoint as to how that "could" be gained conceptually.

[Speedy]

I expect a class that is a little complicated to play well. The artistic design of this class seems to say stab-stab, yay, shake booty. I'm sure that will appeal to plenty of horny teenagers, therefore I hope actually playing this class will be more challenging. So basically it does not become the "noob class".

I hope it will not include all-too-irritating abilities like 10 second stuns, etc. In fact I hope it won't have too many stuns at all, and rather rely on clever positioning and vicious attacks applied at the right times/spots. And perhaps have some more involved mechanic regarding their abilities. Maybe something that can be used to help others as well, I don't know.

Heh, nothing wrong with shaking that booty as a distraction to the perverts who are on the Order side ;)

Yeah, I do agree with you though. I picked this class because it looks very fun to play, yet extremely hard to master; especially if all the attacks are position-based(and not just "behind", but "sides" are introduced as well). Helping others? Of course! We destroy them clothies so our other allies aren't being wiped out by their area of effects, and to stop them from being healed!

@Xurré- You're my hero >.>

[Lucrece]

Highest Damage? If the class has "group" buffs then this is unlikely unless the other melee also posses group buffs. In most games (and so far war has given me no reason to think otherwise) the more group buffs a damage class has, the less personal damage they are given to offset their group buffs. Based on the footage I have seen so far their buffs are self based but as with everything, we can't be sure until we know more. Personally, I hope all 3 melee damage types are equal in damage over time with varying flavors.

Survival is going to be hard to call. With really good escape abilities, armor may not mean much at all.

Well, I'd have to see if we get group buffs. However, this would also alter PvE content, namely soloing to level up, where group buffs would be useless and you'd suffer from inferior damage capability to other melee dps careers. Nevertheless, this is not that big of a concern. The only circumstances under which I call for highest burst damage/single target dps capability is where witch elves will have lower defense, where they have a shorter time window to dish the damage before getting low, and where I have seen not a single AoE ,stun utility, and armor-penetrating capabilities like those of the marauder's mutations. However, if by some reason our poisons can be cleansed and our elixir effects too, then we become considerably inferior to our melee dps counterparts, since their damage-dependent abilities, berserking and mutations, are not dispellable.

I will concede that there is still much work to be revealed about the witch elf, so we should not jump to conclusions. I did mention that this thread was to post feedback and expectations on what has currently been shown to us in the form of the 2 witch elf videos.

[Emeraldw99]

Well, I'd have to see if we get group buffs. However, this would also alter PvE content, namely soloing to level up, where group buffs would be useless and you'd suffer from inferior damage capability to other melee dps careers. Nevertheless, this is not that big of a concern. The only circumstances under which I call for highest burst damage/single target dps capability is where witch elves will have lower defense, where they have a shorter time window to dish the damage before getting low, and where I have seen not a single AoE ,stun utility, and armor-penetrating capabilities like those of the marauder's mutations. However, if by some reason our poisons can be cleansed and our elixir effects too, then we become considerably inferior to our melee dps counterparts, since their damage-dependent abilities, berserking and mutations, are not dispellable.

I will concede that there is still much work to be revealed about the witch elf, so we should not jump to conclusions. I did mention that this thread was to post feedback and expectations on what has currently been shown to us in the form of the 2 witch elf videos.

From what i can tell your biggest concern is Survival. That is going to be hard to call. Their armor is lower than the other melee but Witch Elves at this time have a combat escape ability, not a snare like the other two (may get one later but who knows?) That could depending on use and mechanics make the lack of heavier army be insignificant.

The Self buffs are key, as they can (I think) be used in battle for high end upgrades for a short while and be more controllable than the other two. The elixers may be shorter duration but they could have greater effect lending to a very nice moment turning class.

From what i can tell witch elves have little group utility with it's potions, as I would bet they are self based. however Poisons open up a whole world of Debuff options. Maraduers are said to have AOE and I would bet Choppas then would too, but witch elves could have more debuff options with little (to no) AOE to compensate.

[Lucrece]

From what i can tell your biggest concern is Survival. That is going to be hard to call. Their armor is lower than the other melee but Witch Elves at this time have a combat escape ability, not a snare like the other two (may get one later but who knows?) That could depending on use and mechanics make the lack of heavier army be insignificant.

The Self buffs are key, as they can (I think) be used in battle for high end upgrades for a short while and be more controllable than the other two. The elixers may be shorter duration but they could have greater effect lending to a very nice moment turning class.

From what i can tell witch elves have little group utility with it's potions, as I would bet they are self based. however Poisons open up a whole world of Debuff options. Maraduers are said to have AOE and I would bet Choppas then would too, but witch elves could have more debuff options with little (to no) AOE to compensate.

The issue is that we need to be able to deal damage equally as well as the other classes. There is no point in escape abilities if the damage we have inflicted before being forced to exit combat is less than the other careers'. If we don't get to dps as long as the other classes due to lack of durability, then it would only be reasonable that we have better burst and single dps so that by the time we exit combat earlier than the other careers would, we would have inflicted just as much damage by the time that they exit combat later on.

The self-buffs would be nice if they didn't debuff you afterwards.

We have to closely observe and weigh the benefits of debuffs on a single target versus the ability to heavily damage multiple ones. Hopefully both will be more or less equal.

[Speedy]

The issue is that we need to be able to deal damage equally as well as the other classes. There is no point in escape abilities if the damage we have inflicted before being forced to exit combat is less than the other careers'. If we don't get to dps as long as the other classes due to lack of durability, then it would only be reasonable that we have better burst and single dps so that by the time we exit combat earlier than the other careers would, we would have inflicted just as much damage by the time that they exit combat later on.

The self-buffs would be nice if they didn't debuff you afterwards.

We have to closely observe and weigh the benefits of debuffs on a single target versus the ability to heavily damage multiple ones. Hopefully both will be more or less equal.

I think that is where the poisons come in. While the blades do the damage, the poisons(hopefully full of variety) will begin to sink in, doing much work for the Witch elf. As someone else said, we can always agile escape and let the poison do it's job(sort of like fearing away a target who has dots on them), but this might also kill the survivability factor. Ah well, in that case, we just have to kill our enemies alot quicker ;)

[Emeraldw99]

The issue is that we need to be able to deal damage equally as well as the other classes. There is no point in escape abilities if the damage we have inflicted before being forced to exit combat is less than the other careers'. If we don't get to dps as long as the other classes due to lack of durability, then it would only be reasonable that we have better burst and single dps so that by the time we exit combat earlier than the other careers would, we would have inflicted just as much damage by the time that they exit combat later on.

The self-buffs would be nice if they didn't debuff you afterwards.

We have to closely observe and weigh the benefits of debuffs on a single target versus the ability to heavily damage multiple ones. Hopefully both will be more or less equal.

Your worrying too much ;)

The damage output will be fine I'm sure. The ability to stay in the fight will actually depend on you. They have escape abilities so that you can get away because the idea is that you pick your targets wisely as a witch elf because your not the other 2. You see someone lose, pick them off and when the others get to you, you run away! The others would have to take the beating (this is my general impression).

[Lucrece]

Your worrying too much ;)

The damage output will be fine I'm sure. The ability to stay in the fight will actually depend on you. They have escape abilities so that you can get away because the idea is that you pick your targets wisely as a witch elf because your not the other 2. You see someone lose, pick them off and when the others get to you, you run away! The others would have to take the beating (this is my general impression).

Yeah, I'm a worrier.:rolleyes:

However, by having to wisely pick a target, we have two possible outcomes: a) We make for good focus trains starters, but we would need the superior combat entrance and escape abilities, or b) We are not very good at pressuring softies since we cannot stay for very long in order to put them on the grill; melee dps need not only be able to kill things off when they're weak, rather we need to also be able to get them to that weak state ourselves.

I'm just dying for more information, curse Mythic.:confused:

[Emeraldw99]

Yeah, I'm a worrier.:rolleyes:

However, by having to wisely pick a target, we have two possible outcomes: a) We make for good focus trains starters, but we would need the superior combat entrance and escape abilities, or b) We are not very good at pressuring softies since we cannot stay for very long in order to put them on the grill; melee dps need not only be able to kill things off when they're weak, rather we need to also be able to get them to that weak state ourselves.

I'm just dying for more information, curse Mythic.:confused:

oh, you mention focus fire. Don't forget that Tanks in this game can indeed tank in PvP. They will have to make a choice as to what is better, take down the tank (which is tougher) or take down their target which is softer but with the tank reducing your damage by a chunk may actually be harder downing them than the tank itself. Also, healers are almost always the primary target and agile escape appears to be a damn nice get the heck out of there ability.

[Delolith]

Lucrece whether witch elves are gonna have the highest burst DPS from all classes this is WAR not WoW, meaning no you won't be killing people in under 4 seconds. And I mean any...not clothies...not melee DPS...not tanks. None is gonna fall that fast. If you are 2 witch elves that cooperate and you want to drop a single target in under 4 seconds then that is a different story. Anyway you get my point. Imo I think the WE are gonna be played by some of the most skilled players along with the most noobs and the difference will show.

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

[Lucrece]

Lucrece whether witch elves are gonna have the highest burst DPS from all classes this is WAR not WoW, meaning no you won't be killing people in under 4 seconds. And I mean any...not clothies...not melee DPS...not tanks. None is gonna fall that fast. If you are 2 witch elves that cooperate and you want to drop a single target in under 4 seconds then that is a different story. Anyway you get my point. Imo I think the WE are gonna be played by some of the most skilled players along with the most noobs and the difference will show.

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

Since when did I bring WoW into this? Since when do you get to unfairly assume that I want a 2-shot game? Burst damage does not mean WoW or 2-shot games; burst damage is necessary in any MMO in order to let players control the momentum of matches. I just said that I expect witch elves to not just be the assassin/rogue-like archetype that only comes in when the target is unprepared, since the other melee dpsa careers are not forced to, and since this archetypal behavior is not iconic of witch elves. Witch Elves are berserkers, and I expect to be just as capable to be able to get into the fray and put on pressure instead of waiting for weak spots as the other melee dps careers have been designed so far.

[Delolith]

No...you said they are the weakest of all in defense thus assuming that in order to counterbalance this they should have the highest burst DPS. And I add into this equation that even if this is the case then...you won't be able to go in...do your job and go out as you said on a previous post. You go in...you are intercepted by 2 people either tanks or dunno and you drop in 4 seconds before you even manage to drop the cloth hallf health for example. Playing a WE will probably need some serious skill as I said on my above post. You say about berserks that put pressure. That means steady constant damage...that is pressure... and an opportunistic melee DPSer as WE are described is not that. A tank probably is better at putting pressure than a melee DPSer with low defense capabilities.

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

[Lucrece]

No...you said they are the weakest of all in defense thus assuming that in order to counterbalance this they should have the highest burst DPS. And I add into this equation that even if this is the case then...you won't be able to go in...do your job and go out as you said on a previous post. You go in...you are intercepted by 2 people either tanks or dunno and you drop in 4 seconds before you even manage to drop the cloth hallf health for example. Playing a WE will probably need some serious skill as I said on my above post. You say about berserks that put pressure. That means steady constant damage...that is pressure... and an opportunistic melee DPSer as WE are described is not that. A tank probably is better at putting pressure than a melee DPSer with low defense capabilities.

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

Warhammer lore has NEVER described witch elves as opportunistic, sneaky killers; these are the assassins. It is simply not iconic of the witch elf. That the videos revealed have a man describing them as thus comes off as disappointing, and there is still time to provide feedback to Mythic about it.

I encourage you to watch the hammerer and choppa videos. They do put pressure, that is what melee dps are for; tanks are for protection mainly, as their archetype would hint, not primary damage dealers.

Furthermore, let's please drop "class X needs serious skill to succeed." If class X needs more skill to succeed than class Y, it is because the class is poorly designed.

Also, what I mean with my previous posts is that since witch elves have better escape capabilities, but lower defense, they need higher burst capability. For example: The choppa and hammerer have higher armor than a witch elf, allowing them to DPS for 12 seconds before they need to retire because of low health; the witch elf has 8 seconds worth of DPS before popping Agile Escape. The choppa and hammerer inflicted 1000 damage in that time span with steady DPS, the Witch elf inflicted 650, but she gets to use a burst combo that puts her at 1000, just equal with the hammerer and choppa. You then add damage to that 1k depending on how much AoE/knockback utility the choppa and hammerer have in comparison to the witch elf.

[Delolith]

First, Lol, you are talking about iconic-ness of a class and you say that WE were never the opportunistic fighters in the TT lore that are now described in this game. And Swordmasters are a known TANK in the TT lore right...with light armor...no serious mitigation ability and insane dmg output with ruling out always hit last with 2h rule and weaponskill of 5 and str 5 (2h modified) and initiative 7. So, don't talk about iconic-ness of a class and how it is represented in this game.

Second, in the case that a WE manages to do the same dmg in 8 seconds with Choppa in 12 seconds although the WE won't be doing any DPS the last 4 seconds since it will retract from combat I see 2 problems arising. Problem 1: spiked DPS which is harder to counterheal compared to the other melee DPS classes which is not very fair even in the cost of survivability. Problem 2: The 4 seconds the WE that does not dmg...it does not get at least melee damaged too, since it has already retracted from combat. As you can see from pure numbers as you want to put it...the case is not correct and fair for the rest of the melee DPS careers. If you played MMOs before and I assume you have then you will see the difference between burst DPS and constant DPS particularly in the case of PvP.

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

[Lucrece]

First, Lol, you are talking about iconic-ness of a class and you say that WE were never the opportunistic fighters in the TT lore that are now described in this game. And Swordmasters are a known TANK in the TT lore right...with light armor...no serious mitigation ability and insane dmg output with ruling out always hit last with 2h rule and weaponskill of 5 and str 5 (2h modified) and initiative 7. So, don't talk about iconic-ness of a class and how it is represented in this game.

Second, in the case that a WE manages to do the same dmg in 8 seconds with Choppa in 12 seconds although the WE won't be doing any DPS the last 4 seconds since it will retract from combat I see 2 problems arising. Problem 1: spiked DPS which is harder to counterheal compared to the other melee DPS classes which is not very fair even in the cost of survivability. Problem 2: The 4 seconds the WE that does not dmg...it does not get at least melee damaged too, since it has already retracted from combat. As you can see from pure numbers as you want to put it...the case is not correct and fair for the rest of the melee DPS careers. If you played MMOs before and I assume you have then you will see the difference between burst DPS and constant DPS particularly in the case of PvP.

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

The Lol idiocy doesn't help you. TT figurine stats are not the only source of lore. Witch Elves are NOT opportunistic units like the assassin. Furthermore, about the swordmaster, I take it you completely missed the part where they are the BODYGUARDS of the Tower of Hoeth. If being the mages' personal bodyguard does not make you a tank, then I don't know what will.

Problem 1: You presuppose that the other melee dps classes can't burst, which is false; I'm just saying that witch elves have a slightly higher capability. Also, what makes you think that there are no burst heal capabilities to counter burst damage?

Problem 2:The 4 seconds that she is not taking damage(assuming she is actually able to escape) she is not contributing to character control either, so damage avoidance balances out the pressure that the others exert, be it interrupts or blocking the way. I see the difference in constant DPS and burst DPS, and the fact is that it boils down to damage done overall within a certain time window. If one class is not able to maintain the constant DPS like its other counterparts because of survivability issues, then it is fair to give her higher burst potential in order to fill the damage done gap. There is no use in taking a career that cannot perform in its archetype's department as effectively at others.

[Lord Tareq]

First, Lol, you are talking about iconic-ness of a class and you say that WE were never the opportunistic fighters in the TT lore that are now described in this game. And Swordmasters are a known TANK in the TT lore right...with light armor...no serious mitigation ability and insane dmg output with ruling out always hit last with 2h rule and weaponskill of 5 and str 5 (2h modified) and initiative 7. So, don't talk about iconic-ness of a class and how it is represented in this game.

At least get your facts right. Swordmasters have heavy armour in the TT game, not light.

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

e-peen :rolleyes:

[Delolith]

? Since when swordmasters had heavy armor on TT armybook. Which armybook are you refering to cause I have the old one back in 1990s and if I remember correct those models do not wear heavy armor. Lucrece, I do see your point on the matter of the burst dmg and the rest of the DPSer classes. What I do not agree though is talking about iconicness of the witch elves. Sorry, I did not expect the Swordmasters to be the tanks of high elves. I was waiting something in the lines of Dragon Princes without their mounts (yes a slight twist of lore here). I did suck it up and since I love the class I am gonna play them and not the melee DPS class of HE armybook. However, I don't see how by giving input to the devs of what YOU want of the class to be (which is based on its iconic-ness) I don't see how this should be a matter to ponder for the company since they thought of this and decided that this class fits this particular role (opportunistic melee DPSer) at least for this game.

E-peen? ;) Right (points at Lucrece sig. /hint /hint)

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

[Lucrece]

? Since when swordmasters had heavy armor on TT armybook. Which armybook are you refering to cause I have the old one back in 1990s and if I remember correct those models do not wear heavy armor. Lucrece, I do see your point on the matter of the burst dmg and the rest of the DPSer classes. What I do not agree though is talking about iconicness of the witch elves. Sorry, I did not expect the Swordmasters to be the tanks of high elves. I was waiting something in the lines of Dragon Princes without their mounts (yes a slight twist of lore here). I did suck it up and since I love the class I am gonna play them and not the melee DPS class of HE armybook. However, I don't see how by giving input to the devs of what YOU want of the class to be (which is based on its iconic-ness) I don't see how this should be a matter to ponder for the company since they thought of this and decided that this class fits this particular role (opportunistic melee DPSer) at least for this game.

E-peen? ;) Right (points at Lucrece sig. /hint /hint)

Delolith (aka the most feared character in european PvP server EQ2 June 2006- March 2007).

Paul has mentioned several times that they choose these careers because they're iconic; I would expect them to put their money where their mouth is and follow the guidelines of witch elf iconic-ness. Believe it or not, companies don't forcefeed their design to the masses; it's rather more of a mix of listening to player input and implementing it to the best of their abilities to their design. Most people around this forum are WH fans, and they know that lore does not put witch elves as assassin-like units; I expect this consensus will pressure the devs.

I understand your disappointment with the SM's being chosen as tanks, but you must also understand that it was not the only class that was slightly bent. Archmage fans are rather disappointed that they, one of the most powerful units, are placed in a support archetype. However, from what I've observed, SM's seem to be rather offensive avoidance tanks, which might serve to mildly alleviate your wants of SM smackdown ability. As for not playing the HE DPS class, I can't find anyone who wouldn't be the least tempted to play White Lions; they are so cool.

On to sigs: There's a difference between joking and stats posting. My sig is a satire on forum nature.

[Delolith]

I totally agree with what you are saying. Although, I think you will be disappointed in the end cause I don't see them changing the WE from what it is to relative more withstanding melee DPS profile. Yes, I do agree SMs are looking a lot offenssive compared to the other non-elven tanks. Yes, I know a few archmage fans that are disappointed rather a lot since some are RL friends of mine. We will see how it goes around when the game is released though. Hope you succeed with your crusade and make them twist the WE class a bit to a more lore-wise profile. You never know;)

Delolith

P.S OMG hillbilly elves with huge axes..../cringes with dread. Imo White Lions were a dreadful elven regiment "image-wise"...and I have to put an emphasis that this is just my opinion /hides ;) I always loved Swordmasters of Hoeth far more:)

[Lucrece]

I totally agree with what you are saying. Although, I think you will be disappointed in the end cause I don't see them changing the WE from what it is to relative more withstanding melee DPS profile. Yes, I do agree SMs are looking a lot offenssive compared to the other non-elven tanks. Yes, I know a few archmage fans that are disappointed rather a lot since some are RL friends of mine. We will see how it goes around when the game is released though. Hope you succeed with your crusade and make them twist the WE class a bit to a more lore-wise profile. You never know;)

Delolith

P.S OMG hillbilly elves with huge axes..../cringes with dread. Imo White Lions were a dreadful elven regiment "image-wise"...and I have to put an emphasis that this is just my opinion /hides ;) I always loved Swordmasters of Hoeth far more:)

White Lions, visually unappealing? Heresy!

Ahem, thanks for the rooting, hopefully they'll release a more berserker-ish WE when all is finished.;)

[Thrakkesh]

I always thought White Lions were kind of cool. Anything to get away from the damn image of Elves-as-models-for-perfection.

[Delolith]

Well in case you find the so-called image-of-perfection unappealing and I am not talking about beauty, but rather perfection in the way of doing things then I don't think elves should be your race of choise cause that is what they represent. Perfecting something through centuries of training. They are lithe, accurate, strong and deadly. I am not talking about the flowersmelling elves that are represented in some mythologies. I am talking about warriors that have trained for centuries in war tactics, strategies and mastering the ways of a weapon (much like a samurai but for much longer time). If this is not the picture that you want to think about elves then dunno....I always pictured white lions as brute elves that depend on their pumped muscles and their huge 2h axes rather than their technique and mastery over weapons (weaponskill). I dpn't choose an elven class just because it is gonna be uncharacteristic of the elves so people won't shout at me omg...tree-hugging pansy. You show them in battle that they are wrong ;)

Delolith

[Feigro]

White Lions remind me of Heracles.

They even get to fight Hydras! :eek:

(Though this is off-topic, go Witch Elves!)