Your first target on the battlefield

[Evander]

P.S.
I made this poll multiple choice because one never has a single target upon entering the battle. But please refrain from selecting all options, there is a "The first one in sight" option for that.


This thread got inspired on a little discussion going on in the Warrior Priest section of the Empire forum, here (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20423).

When I was reading this I was rather interested on the idea that allot of people still think that a healer is in general danger when he is in the midst of battle rather than being safely at a distance. This comes due to the idea that the supportive character is often the first target of everyone since that particular careerer often lends great difficulties in taking out their opponents.
Having a good deal of background experience in Melee combat Healers I can say that such theory hardly makes it into practice in PvP battles.

Most combatants I face deal with me like a regular opponent when I stand on the battlefield, this often changes only after I've become a general hard-to-kill nuisance or until I start spamming heals. It is only at this point that players suddenly start to recognize my healing as a possible threat to their victory. But even still, when a enemy player is attacking my current healing target I have often observed that they choose to rather keep on bashing on his current opponent rather than switching to take me out. Similar simpleminded strategies occur in every online experience I've ever partaken in, be it a MMO, Shooter or a RTS. People often keep to their own world and tend to take out the first damn target in sight and only then worry about possible tactics. With enough respected exceptions of course, I only incline the general gaming public.

People have the idea that the melee healer class, the Warrior Priest, is going to be a flawed mechanic because it will always be the primary target of every sane player and his dog. Yet I tend to disagree if only out of personal experience. But mostly out of the theory that tactical logic does not always apply into the typical battle strategy of a random-created PvP party who's only intention is to entertain themselves on their typical boring midweek evening.

So I got to the great idea to poll this to see what the results will lead us to.
The question is simple: Who is your first target on the PvP battlefield?
Please think about it before you vote and don't just massively spam the "Melee Healer" option because it makes dull sense for you tonight, when you are clear on mind and bored stiff enough to waste decent midnight hours to the WHA forums.
Also, we all love comments as to why you choose your particular favorite. So please leave your comment behind and inspire the public as to why your opinion is truth.

I'll be honest that I often always target the first guy I get in sight. Unless if he is to high of a level for me, or the one with the lowest healthbar.

[Ayetalam]

First one I see, and then the one with the lowest HP. Get some hits in there. Heal the group. Hit some more peoples. I won't have a preference, Imma kill some Asur babies too.

*wishful destruction melee healer scenerio*

[Brad the terrible]

I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think of healers as weak but I do think of them as a nuisance that has to be dealth with. I can't kill anyone if the healers keep spamming heals on so I generally go after "the one with the dress". Healers are also often physically weaker and less durable then other classes so they fall faster if they aren't allowed to heal or CC you. I know the warrior priests in warhammer will be much different from their WOW counterparts but they can't be as tough as a tank or as damaging as any of the DPS classes so yes I will take them out first because they pose a greater threat healing then anyone else.

[Sparra]

I generally go after the support classes (if I can identify them) first. I'll generally pick the enemy with the lowest HP, because a enemy at 1% HP still does 100% damage! However, if I spot a heal and/or a healer, I WILL shift targets to them. A healer, in my eyes, can do so much more damage by simply keeping their allies alive, allowing them to do their part.

So that's how I go into battle at least.

[Brad the terrible]

I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think of healers as weak but I do think of them as a nuisance that has to be dealt with. I can't kill anyone if the healers keep spamming heals so I generally go after "the one with the dress". Healers are also often physically weaker and less durable then other classes so they fall faster if they aren't allowed to heal or CC you. I know the warrior priests in warhammer will be much different from their WOW counterparts but they can't be as tough as a tank or as damaging as any of the DPS classes so yes I will take them out first because they pose a greater threat healing then anyone else.

It's always better to take out the healers then the frail casting DPS classes because they generally pose the most threat to your group as a whole.

[Brad the terrible]

I generally go after the support classes (if I can identify them) first. I'll generally pick the enemy with the lowest HP, because a enemy at 1% HP still does 100% damage! However, if I spot a heal and/or a healer, I WILL shift targets to them. A healer, in my eyes, can do so much more damage by simply keeping their allies alive, allowing them to do their part.

So that's how I go into battle at least.


Defintely. The most damaging class in pvp are the healers amongst other classes. They give buffs, to the other classes and keep them alive while you are fighting them. It's always the best to take them out if you can.

[th3maninblak]

Im pretty sure that im gonna catch some heat for this... but if im in a well organized group, i usually go for the melee DPS first. You send your DPS to go terrorize them from the flanks and immediately put your ranged DPS and your tank on their DPS and kick his arse right at the begining of the fight. I've learned that if you dont, he'll probably flank you and eat you while your recovering.

[Earth Dragon]

Im pretty sure that im gonna catch some heat for this... but if im in a well organized group, i usually go for the melee DPS first. You send your DPS to go terrorize them from the flanks and immediately put your ranged DPS and your tank on their DPS and kick his arse right at the begining of the fight. I've learned that if you dont, he'll probably flank you and eat you while your recovering.
I agree 100%. Melee DPS can fall quickly if you pounce them (at least in many of the games I have played). I also feel a group should not concentrate on one person. They should have a focus from most, but there needs to be a couple DPS folks gunning for non-tank targets to keep the heals scattered.

With that said. I think the careers are going to be varied enough where certain support will be targeted over certian Melee DPS, and certain tanks may cause more issues if left alive then the hassle it will be to kill them first. And then you always have the synergy of different careers amongst each other which makes you change targets.

I am really looking forward to playing in this environment, since it will lend to chaotic PvP with 12 different careers for each side. I can only hope that they "specialize" each race further and give them a 5th career that doubles them up in an area that they are really strong in. Like have two melee DPS dwarf careers.

[Brad the terrible]

Im pretty sure that im gonna catch some heat for this... but if im in a well organized group, i usually go for the melee DPS first. You send your DPS to go terrorize them from the flanks and immediately put your ranged DPS and your tank on their DPS and kick his arse right at the begining of the fight. I've learned that if you dont, he'll probably flank you and eat you while your recovering.

Since I played a rogue in WOW I never had that problem until I chose to reveal my self. But I do agree that you can't ignore melle DPS classes, especially when they start stunning/crippling your healers.

[Gemini]

I like to take a two-pronged approach, personally. Target something like a melee dps or someting with part of the group, while the other part focuses on a support class. Works espically well if there is only one main healer/support class/whatever in the group. Keeping one health bar from dropping is easier than keeping two from doing so, in my experience. Dunno if that will work in WAR or not, but time will tell.

[Brad the terrible]

Healers/support are my prime targets but I generally go after players who are isolated from the group and won't recieve help when their health gets low. It works especially well for me if I get the drop on them.

[Loekii]

I think it really depends on how the mechanics work.

Given the little bit we do know about tanking, and how the game is being designed, it seems like it might be counter productive to think that a healer is the 'easy' target.

I also think effective WAR targetting is going to be distributed based upon Group PvP -- where members will have roles and different target priorities.

I fully expect to see tanks and DPS going up against other tanks/dps, while the healers and supports are duking it out (aka debuffing each other to mitigate their effective support). Gone are the days of 'focus fire' and 'squishy' targeting

I think the player that thinks there DPS class is going to be a one man killing machine, able to tear apart any target of their choosing, is going to be in for some disappointment.

Again, I think the foundation of the group dynamic is going to change our perception of target priority.

[Fusko]

The healer! Always get the healer! THERE IS NO EXCUSE NOT TO! :evil:

[Joeydevil]

Get the closest healer first. If there is one in melee that should be your first target.

[Jinsei]

My fist's target is always a face, neck or groin. Quick punch to one of those and it's lights out.

But on the battlefield, always a healer-type or a DPS with low survivability

[RexT]

Wow, I'm flattered. An entire thread put together to combat the ideas of little ol' me!! :D

You are right OP in that most people don't follow through with the best strategies in real PvP situations. My argument against that would be the fact that no one really cares about the bad tactics of the masses, that's why they are the masses. The only groups that matter are the organized ones who will do everything they can to win.

Also, your poll is just a bit skewed. You should add the tallies of "The support character" with those of "The melee healer" simply because most likely the support character that people will see most often and have the easiest access to is the melee healer.

[Seznid]

Definately the one in the dress.
At least until I get used to the silhouettes of most classes and their capabilties and can tell classes apart at a distance, heh.

[Truce]

An organized group can seriously punish someone who single-mindedly charges after the guys in the back, even in a game without collision detection.

If you charge deep into the enemy backfield trying to kill a healer or caster, you can get kited out of range of your own healers while the enemy group folds back on you and kills you. Baiting enemy melees into vulnerable positions and then quickly turning on them is a common strategy in DAoC called extention.

A smart player's ideal target is someone they can attack effectively without subjecting themselves to serious risk or wasting a lot of time getting in range. That might be a carelessly positioned healer or caster but it's most likely to be a melee DPS class. (Especially if they are aggressively pushing into your group.)

Edit: If the enemy melee DPS charges deep into your group to try and get your healers, fold back and kill them, then quickly press the remaining enemies. Their DPS will be dead in your back lines where they probably can't be rezzed, meaning the enemy group is now totally screwed.

So I voted melee DPS first, as that's what the nearest vulnerable target is most likely to be.

[dynamo112]

First one i see, because i wont have any clue as to what's the biggest threat untill ive played for awhile. If im playing a tank im going to be more worried about those ranged damage dealers more than a healer, so im naturally going to move to them and shut them out... of coarse this is based off what ive read so im not to sure as to what archetype tanks REALLY need to worry about.

[Choppa]

Also, your poll is just a bit skewed. You should add the tallies of "The support character" with those of "The melee healer" simply because most likely the support character that people will see most often and have the easiest access to is the melee healer.

I actually disagree.

The only targets that an organized (or even semi-aware) group should be focus firing out should be the support classes. These may be melee or ranged but healers do contribute disproportionately to their teamates.

A better poll would have been one that asks which character people would rather target, either the Support Class (ranged support) or the Melee Healer (melee support). That would pretty much answer debate right there, wouldn't it?

Assuming that the WP stands in combat to fight and that Support Classes have the ability to move around, I would go for the WP even if he takes a little longer to kill.

[Machida]

I think it all depends on the situation. In general group on group clashes where the only objective is to kill the otherside to get a flag or to just get kills then yeah I can agree with you. But if I was in a group that was trying to take a tower or a farm etc, I'm going after the healer first. In fact, I'm scanning the battlefield for any caster. They tend to be the most devestating, whether it be dps or healing.

The only exception to that would be a heavily armoured melee healer. They tend to be the toughest to kill unless focused fired on by a group.

[RexT]

An organized group can seriously punish someone who single-mindedly charges after the guys in the back, even in a game without collision detection.

If you charge deep into the enemy backfield trying to kill a healer or caster, you can get kited out of range of your own healers while the enemy group folds back on you and kills you. Baiting enemy melees into vulnerable positions and then quickly turning on them is a common strategy in DAoC called extention.

A smart player's ideal target is someone they can attack effectively without subjecting themselves to serious risk or wasting a lot of time getting in range. That might be a carelessly positioned healer or caster but it's most likely to be a melee DPS class. (Especially if they are aggressively pushing into your group.)

Edit: If the enemy melee DPS charges deep into your group to try and get your healers, fold back and kill them, then quickly press the remaining enemies. Their DPS will be dead in your back lines where they probably can't be rezzed, meaning the enemy group is now totally screwed.

So I voted melee DPS first, as that's what the nearest vulnerable target is most likely to be.

Excellent post Truce, and it is for the exact same reasons that you would attack the melee DPS first that I say that WPs will be in serious trouble. That is, since they need to do melee DPS in order to heal more effectively they will most likely be hanging around with the melee DPSers on the front lines.

O yeah, point taken Choppa.

[Truce]

Excellent post Truce, and it is for the exact same reasons that you would attack the melee DPS first that I say that WPs will be in serious trouble. That is, since they need to do melee DPS in order to heal more effectively they will most likely be hanging around with the melee DPSers on the front lines.

O yeah, point taken Choppa.

Against a good enemy group (ie: a group that will use extend/fold tactics to protect their ranged classes), yes, I would rather attack a warrior priest than an archmage. The WP makes a good target for the same reason melee DPS classes do: his roll forces him into a vulnerable position so there's little risk associated with attacking him. You can easily pressure him without leaving the safety of own group's support umbrella.

Note that I'm talking very specifically about fighting good enemy groups. The level of communication needed to use the extend/fold strategy is usually not present in a random pickup group, so when you're fighting them you don't need to consider the risk of chasing a target so much.

Additionally, casters in pickup groups often have attrocious positioning skills and will be standing in places where they can be easily attacked, which is all the more reason to just go for them. If the enemy wants to hand you a free kill, take it. (The casters who know how to position themselves better tend to find their way into better groups. Go figure. ;) )

I strongly believe that charging into the backfield against a good enemy group trying to reach their healers is suicide. The healer will see you coming and pull back, forcing you to extend out of support range from your group (or give up the attack.) If you chase them and the enemy group folds on you, you're dead. It works like a charm in DAoC and it'll work even better in WAR, because collision detection will make it even harder for the extended melee to make it back to the safety of their group.

[Syr]

"ohhhh it's AOE dog!"

(wonder who else remembers that :p )

[ungenius]

kill the best performing support class on the field if you can... ignore the people who are obviously playing their characters badly (support classes only playing a 1 sided role for example) take out their strongest support and the rest of their group will fail in my opinion, unless they are working with another defense/meleedps player.. then you have to work them both at the same time :)

[Deshiva]

No need to kill a healer if they don't heal, a common reason to why I usually don't go for them straight away. Sometimes you can get lucky and it's a fool playing that don't even know how to heal anyone but themself, mashing his buddies might be a better idea in thoose cases.

You will notice what type the healer is once you start bashing his buddies, worst come to worst you could have someone with alot of disabling skills handling the enemy healer/s.

Can't heal if you can't cast, and it's alot easier to simply CC a healer than to actually kill them, kill attempts tend to lead to heals flooding to the healer. Also disabling attacks on healers seem to cause less aggravation from other players than outright attacking. It takes a few more moments to consider the issue of the healer being unable to cast., compared to the healer starting to lose health.

Course that itself could be abused but I think in a game like this where ap seems to recover quite quickly, disabling them if you can't manage to kill them is the better option.
It's a tricky question in this game as well with the big mixture of careers.

[Deshiva]

First one i see, because i wont have any clue as to what's the biggest threat untill ive played for awhile. If im playing a tank im going to be more worried about those ranged damage dealers more than a healer, so im naturally going to move to them and shut them out... of coarse this is based off what ive read so im not to sure as to what archetype tanks REALLY need to worry about.

I'd say the melee dpsers trying to harm your less armored buddies, ranged tend to aim for the frontliners to not risk getting caught in AoE or melee dps.

[Sturmer]

First target that attacks my squad. If he has healer then that is 1. target.

LoL I can still remember those fools who tried to kill my mage in WoW. While this "killer" had 2-3 my squad mates on his back.
I could only laugh my arse off when he sits in frostnova getting butchered. :p

[Relentless]

Personally, since I'm planning on playing a tanking class, tangling with the melee dps is probably going to be my top priority since they'll be going after my range and support.

[Dracallo]

Honestly the first player I see.

Are we allowed to attack our own race/side??

If so my first target on the battlefield will probably be another dark elf. If not anyone who I see.

[Rafe]

Support. Sever the spine and the body just lies there and flops around.

That will depend partially on how the Rocks/Paper/Scissors balancing works. If I'm a melee DPS, I'll likely go for lightly armoured, but if I'm ranged DPS, I'll likely go for tanks. We'll see how that all pans out, but having played MA in DAoC RvR for some time, it's usually support first or split assist.

[mongoose]

In the perfect scenario, always target the healing classes first. You are fighting an uphill battle if you attack anyone else because the healers will be healing all that damage you are doing to others. Once they are eliminated the rest of the group will have no way to replenish their hps.

Of course I mentioned the "perfect" scenario and this seldom happens. Also with full CD there will be no way to just run directly at the support classes which completely changes the dynamics of a battle. This might actually prove to an the achilles heel for the WP since he has to be on the front line making him much more accessible to enemy attack.

So given that we will have CD and that most support classes wont be 'EZ pickins', your next best target would be the highest DPS/lowest HP classes (if you can take them out) and then the melee DPS.

If playing other MMOs has taught me anything though its that once in the heat of the battle most tactics get chucked out the window and it becomes "attack the guy in front on me!"

[Camyllib]

I think that ranged and healer class have to go out but the ranged can keep you from getting to the healers and they usually have a low HP.

[Droogie]

The one in the dress!!!

I chose the Supporting Class AND the one in the dress (many times the supporting class, or a big time damage dealer that will fall fairly fast)

[Dalwin]

Mine not listed.

It's the guy who charges in trying to get to the squishies in my group. If no one is coming at us, then I go engage pretty much whatever I can get my hands on, preferrably ranged attackers if I can reach them.

[Truce]

In the perfect scenario, always target the healing classes first.

I disagree. In a perfect scenario, take out the enemy damage dealers first.

Why? Because in a fight between two groups, your objective is to kill them before they kill you. The enemy damage dealers are the direct threat to achieving that objective. Healers are only an indirect threat; their main role is to support the damage dealers. If you can kill their damage dealers without having to spend time killing the healers first, you have a leg up.

Temporarily disabling a healer or seperating an enemy group so that the healer is not in range and then quickly spiking an enemy DPS class to death will usually do more to help your group gain control of the fight than taking out the healer would. Every time you manage to kill an enemy damage dealer you greatly weaken their ability to execute an attack on your group. You also effectively weaken the enemy healers by taking away one of the players they were supporting.

Now, depending on how strong healing turns out to be, you might be forced to try and kill healers first at least some of the time, but I believe it's better to work around them and eliminate the direct threat first whenever possible.

[Rafe]

I disagree. In a perfect scenario, take out the enemy damage dealers first.

Why? Because in a fight between two groups, your objective is to kill them before they kill you. The enemy damage dealers are the direct threat to achieving that objective. Healers are only an indirect threat; their main role is to support the damage dealers.

I think most people will disagree with you on that. What's the point of attacking their damage dealers when those tanks are getting heals? Meanwhile, your healers and support is being knocked out.

The objective is not, as you put it, to kill them before they kill you. It's to kill them and keep your group alive. To do that, you kill that which keeps their damage dealers standing: the support/healing careers.

If you can kill their damage dealers without having to spend time killing the healers first, you have a leg up.

Ummm... no, you don't. Likely while you've been hacking at someone who's being healed, it's your "legs" (ie, the healers) that have been chopped off.

[Drop-Bear]

It really depends what the rest of my group is doing. If there are 3 people attacking the healer already then I need to be attacking something else. If there are 2 people then I may consider throwing a CC at the healer but would be throwing damage at others. If there is only one person on the healer then they would be my primary target as well. If noone is attacking them then I would try and get someone to come with me and attack the healer.

After the healer it usually goes Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Tank. In this game I think it will depend on who is closer to attacking me cause tanks actually look pretty dangerous as well.

And the perfect senerio you need to be in a position where you can get favourable match ups. You also need to be attacking multiple oponents as a group. You don't need 6 of you attacking the healer. Some should be on the healer others should be attacking other targets to divide the healers attention.

From what I have seen for most races the best group makeup in my opinion would be 2 tanks 2 melee DPS 1 ranged DPS and 1 healer. In this group 1 tank goes with the melee DPS to get behind the enemy and attack their ranged and healers while the other stays back with the ranged DPS and Healer to protect them from the opposing tanks and melee. Whichever group of 3 finishes their targets off first comes around and helps the other.

[RexT]

So just to recap, most people are listing either the support/healer classes or the attacking group of people who are the closest to them as their primary targets. *Sniff Sniff* Is that victory I smell?

[Gretha]

We have to remember that, even if most people will do something, it doesn't have to be the wisest decition.

[RexT]

We have to remember that, even if most people will do something, it doesn't have to be the wisest decition.

Maybe it is maybe it isn't, that still doesn't change the fact that the WP is going to need some special attention.

[Gretha]

Because only 14.18% want to kill him first?

[Rafe]

Maybe it is maybe it isn't, that still doesn't change the fact that the WP is going to need some special attention.

Spirit Master pet! Intercepts ftw. :cool:

[Scerce]

Common PvP tactics certainly hold that you kill the healer first. Of course, usually the healer is lightly armored and meant to be hanging around the back. Usually they are easy to kill if you can only work your way around back and start hitting them. But there are exceptions to every rule.

It's been said the Warrior Priest is the dream of all the WoW-refugees who became disillusioned with the Paladin. In my humble opinion, if the Warrior Priest is anything like the WoW Paladin, melee healer is a completely feasible role (even without a cheap invincibility bubble).

Take into account a few things:

1) Collision Detection: if the WP is fighting, as he should be, alongside his allies, there won't be a 100+ person melee chain of auto-targetters. Drastically reduces the damage he takes.

2) WP, and healers in general, have the second best armor of the four archetypes. Doesn't matter if your target is wearing a dress if he's also wearing plate mail underneath it.

3) RvR. I can't speak for duelists, but no WP should be engaging in large-scale battles without a tank. A tank who, due to their shared battle range, will be fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with the WP.

---

In conclusion, though I've been trained to usually attack the healers first, damage reduction and other roadblocks can reach such a severe state that it becomes futile. Trying to kill a heavily-armored Warrior Priest who's taking an extra 50% less damage due to his tank and can only be engaged by a set number of melee DPS at any given time... might just make it worthwhile to go after some Witch Hunter or Bright Wizard.

[Vilehakk]

Who I target is largely dependant on the roleI play in the combat, then many other whacky variables. When I was a hated warlock in that other game (ranged dps), I went after the guy in the dress first and foremost (other cloth ranged dps, and cloth support/healer).

It's my opinion that if you're any kind of dps role, your primary target should always be support/healers first, then ranged dps, always always always.

However, for this poll, I chose whoever I see first, since I plan on being a pvp tank. Without knowing the fine mechanics of the game, I can only guess what the "true" role of the pvp tank will ultimately be, but I figure the more player aggro I get, the less flak the dress-wearers on my side will get.

[Joeydevil]

Because only 14.18% want to kill him first?

Not true, he is a support class and the first one in sight because he is melee, making it 3 answers in one. Add it all up and you have a trifecta.

[Gretha]

But its a poll where you can choose multiple asweres.

So everyone who said the Supporting Class but not melee healer means" range heales" instead of " only one vote for the Wp instead of 2"


Let me think

He can take damae
does damage
is a support class
wears a dress
and is melee healer

and becuase of that he will be the
first on in sigth and
the one with the lowest HP.


Is there anyway to let the WP allive?

[Sunfang]

Who I target is largely dependant on the roleI play in the combat, then many other whacky variables. When I was a hated warlock in that other game (ranged dps), I went after the guy in the dress first and foremost (other cloth ranged dps, and cloth support/healer).

It's my opinion that if you're any kind of dps role, your primary target should always be support/healers first, then ranged dps, always always always.

However, for this poll, I chose whoever I see first, since I plan on being a pvp tank. Without knowing the fine mechanics of the game, I can only guess what the "true" role of the pvp tank will ultimately be, but I figure the more player aggro I get, the less flak the dress-wearers on my side will get.

Vile, I largely agree with you on this. It is hard to really know what CD will do to combat and until we know its hard to say.

In DAOC our group evisceration really depended on what realm we were fighting and if we knew them. For instance: Hib and Alb groups are all built differently than our Mid group. Generally CC classes and interupt classes had to go well before the healers. Healers however where shortly after than the headless DPS would meet their departure.

There where times when we would attack DPS first but this always seemed to make for a radiculously long battle and puts tremendous preassure on our own healers and in the end just seemed unnecassary. Especially when we would get @$$-Jammed by an ALB group 30 second later.

WOW provided its own challenges but we always took warriors out first followed by mages, warlocks, than preists. Geared warriors just did way too much damage to be allowed standing.

Only time will tell what the attack priority order for WAR will be as I personally have no clue how far into enemy lines I will be able to go with out over extending or what my roll will be.

[Sunfang]

But its a poll where you can choose multiple asweres.

So everyone who said the Supporting Class but not melee healer means" range heales" instead of " only one vote for the Wp instead of 2"


Let me think

He can take damae
does damage
is a support class
wears a dress
and is melee healer

and becuase of that he will be the
first on in sigth and
the one with the lowest HP.


Is there anyway to let the WP allive?

We have no clue how much damage he will be doing. In all honesty he could end up to be another WOW style Paladin where damage can be done but your main role was to run around in plate and spot heal.

If this is the case he will be a thorn that needs to go, any additional utility is just more reason to take him out. If his damage is comparable to a tank than he will still need to go.

As of now

Runepriest>WP attack order but if he does a full boat of damage too than that might be reversed.

[RexT]

In conclusion, though I've been trained to usually attack the healers first, damage reduction and other roadblocks can reach such a severe state that it becomes futile. Trying to kill a heavily-armored Warrior Priest who's taking an extra 50% less damage due to his tank and can only be engaged by a set number of melee DPS at any given time... might just make it worthwhile to go after some Witch Hunter or Bright Wizard.

Good points Scere, however consider this. I seriously think that people are (and pretty much always have) overestimated the value of armor. Armor only reduces the damage one takes from physical damage dealers and means absolutely nothing to magical damage dealers (which this game has no shortage of, healers and possibly the Chosen included).

Now, its true that we can expect a WP to be fighting side by side with a good tank who will be doing anything he can to protect his friend, but we have to realize that as things stand now collision detection works both ways. Basically, if we can't get to the WP he can't get to us. And since the WP needs to be able to do melee damage in order to heal more effectively he is going to have to expose himself to do so. And lets not forget that collision detection does not also mean Line of Sight obstacle, so just because a WP is sitting pretty behind his wall of tanks and protected from other melee DPS does not mean that he is protected from being attacked by our ranged DPS.

[Loekii]

My fist's target is always a face, neck or groin. Quick punch to one of those and it's lights out.

But on the battlefield, always a healer-type or a DPS with low survivability

Again, I don't think WAR is going to follow the simply 1v1 PvP mechanic, but rather it will be an interwoven lacing of various individuals in the group, ultimately making one big 'shield'.

So all those people going for the 'squishy' healer, might simple be picking one of the more 'protected' targets, and wasting their time, as the opposing group applies the proper tactics, to remove the lacing, and then targets say the 'tank' which is actually the better target.

With the 'tanking' system, the 'healer/dps' targets might actually have the highest defense of the group, rather than the sophmoric approach of assuming they are 'squish' or 'low survivability'.

Again, I think a healer in a group is very different than a solo healer, in terms of survivability.

[Goldenheart]

The most improtant target s the support/healer, without it, the enemy can't heal, so they die quicker and more easily.

[dol]

With all the utility they are giving tanks in this game, you almost have to kill them first. If you don't and they play their cards right, you won't end up killing anyone.

[tachycardias]

it really depends on what kind of abilities your group has at its disposal.

the amount of damage, the amount of defense, amount of AOE, ability to negate healing effectiveness would all be factors.

we really dont know much about the abilities that will be in the game/

an enemy healer isnt as important if you have a class who can easily interrupt him or reduce his healing. he's also not as important if he has another healer backing him up and maybe a tank.

it really depends on what you and your group can do.

i think when it comes down to it, each class will have a weakness. combined, a group can make up for that weakness but there will still be a weak link you should take out first.

[dol]

The healer! Always get the healer! THERE IS NO EXCUSE NOT TO! :evil:

Then my friendly Black Orc uses his aoe taunt and I lol at all your guys doing 50% damage.

I really think that WAR is gonna be different that other MMO's where the support classes aren't always going to be the prime target, and if the opposing tanks use thier utility correctly you'll end up worse off by not dealing with them first.

[tachycardias]

Good points Scere, however consider this. I seriously think that people are (and pretty much always have) overestimated the value of armor. Armor only reduces the damage one takes from physical damage dealers and means absolutely nothing to magical damage dealers (which this game has no shortage of, healers and possibly the Chosen included).



what makes you think that? i havent seen anywhere where mythic has stated the mechanics of armor and spells.

armor/shields dont do anything vs spells in WoW, which i asssume youre referring to, but from what i hear it does in other games like DAOC (shields).

[Baradun]

The results of this poll <and personal first hand experience> leads me to the conclusion that if you want to be a healer you have to:

Be a hard who shrugs off the fact everyons got you targeted and is bent on taking you out of action as soon as possible.
Not care that the game designers only cater to the "Big Number Syndrome" classes that take up the bulk of their pay checque.
Understand your chosen support class will be destroyed by every other class in secconds on the battlefield.
As much as I enjoy healing, I'm through with it, this is one healer whose hanging up his robes and Order is less for it. Only time will tell I guess

[Unhallowed]

The first one with the name Drizzt, Driiizzt, Drizt, and any other any variation of any character from an R.A Salvatore book.

[Commentaris]

As much as I enjoy healing, I'm through with it, this is one healer whose hanging up his robes and Order is less for it. Only time will tell I guess
ah, bitter healer syndrome. i can relate to that :)

i voted "support classes", because i learned that it's generally the best way to kill the opposition. i learned from both ends of the stick too, being somebody who plays healer classes.

i'd like to state that i'm taking tanks as being part of the support classes and i have a feeling that in WAR tanks will be pretty strong.

ideally you kill the healers, CC the tanks, then kill the DPS and lastly the tanks. (oooo theorycraft)

[R-dawg]

I went with the person in the dress option because typically classes in robes have lower hp/defense. They also tend to be a support class or either have very high damage output...either way they make life miserable for the opposing team if left unchecked.

[Loekii]

Then my friendly Black Orc uses his aoe taunt and I lol at all your guys doing 50% damage.

I really think that WAR is gonna be different that other MMO's where the support classes aren't always going to be the prime target, and if the opposing tanks use thier utility correctly you'll end up worse off by not dealing with them first.

I agree.

I think anyone thinking they can pick one 'easy' target and eliminate them solo, or even with focus fire, will find themselves losing battles.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Now, its true that we can expect a WP to be fighting side by side with a good tank who will be doing anything he can to protect his friend, but we have to realize that as things stand now collision detection works both ways. Basically, if we can't get to the WP he can't get to us. And since the WP needs to be able to do melee damage in order to heal more effectively he is going to have to expose himself to do so. And lets not forget that collision detection does not also mean Line of Sight obstacle, so just because a WP is sitting pretty behind his wall of tanks and protected from other melee DPS does not mean that he is protected from being attacked by our ranged DPS.
I'm pretty sure only enemies have collision detection
Your enemies can't go past you, but friends will be able to stand in you.
So the warrior priest can just stand in the tank and hit too

[RexT]

what makes you think that? i havent seen anywhere where mythic has stated the mechanics of armor and spells.

armor/shields dont do anything vs spells in WoW, which i asssume youre referring to, but from what i hear it does in other games like DAOC (shields).

I can't seem to find the stats listings right now but armor reduces physical damage and resistances reduce magical damage. Of course this is all subject to change later.

The point I'm trying to get at is you can't just say that something has a lot of survivability just because he has a lot of HP or high armor. Similarly, just because someone is wearing a dress and has low HP doesn't mean that they have low survivability. You have to look at how the class plays in context. To use a couple of examples look at the WoW mage. I may have had the lowest armor and health but between Ice Barrier, Ice Block, Blink, and a multitude of kiting mechanisms I was one of the most survivable mo fos on the battlefield. Same thing with the Scout in TF2. You can't kill me if you can't hit me.

So, in context, it doesn't matter if the WP is all armored up or not. If he is as easily accessible a healer as I think he is then all that doesn't mean squat. Taking little to no damage from being ranged is a lot better than taking loads of reduced damage in melee.

Also, I don't think that anyone is arguing about solo viability here. My entire argument is basically this: Support classes are big targets. Melee targets tend to die frequently because they are the easiest unit to access. The WP is both a support class and an easily accessible melee character who has to be on the front lines of battle to heal effectively. I'm curious as to how Mythic will balance this out. Anyone have any objections to my basic assumptions here?

I'm pretty sure only enemies have collision detection
Your enemies can't go past you, but friends will be able to stand in you.
So the warrior priest can just stand in the tank and hit tooHmmm, last I checked CD was on both sides. We're gonna have to get confirmation. Either way though he is still vulnerable to ranged attacks and is still in some risk (albeit a reduced one) of being caught by melee.

[Gemini]

I disagree with people who are saying always, always no matter what target the support classes. There are too many damn variables in PvP to "always" do something with success. It may work most of the time, PvP is not static, so your stratedgy can't always be static either.

[Gretha]

No plan survives the first contact with the enemy.(If the PvP isn't bad designed)
But its an indicator what people will try to do if no one stopes them.

[Qvark]

1. Rush in
2. Attack The first one in sight
3. Find best target while attacking the first random guy
4. Change to better target

Not gonna stand outside the fight looking for a target :)

[Dalwin]

The results of this poll <and personal first hand experience> leads me to the conclusion that if you want to be a healer you have to:

Be a hard who shrugs off the fact everyons got you targeted and is bent on taking you out of action as soon as possible.
Not care that the game designers only cater to the "Big Number Syndrome" classes that take up the bulk of their pay checque.
Understand your chosen support class will be destroyed by every other class in secconds on the battlefield.
As much as I enjoy healing, I'm through with it, this is one healer whose hanging up his robes and Order is less for it. Only time will tell I guess

If you really believe those things, I would recommend not playing a healer.

On the other hand, if you take things like CD or tanks in your group using taunts to protect you into account, I believe that healers are not going to end up being the first targetted and killed most of the time.

It will take some time for tactics to develop, but I do not believe that the age old cry "healers first" is going to be good strategy.

[Chrismorris]

Everything but the tank (Unless the tank is low on hp) ;)

[DrainBamaged]

They all sound good to kill so I chose them all. :)

[Volbeat]

Hey! wheres my option for "The metaltin with feathers on its top"

[Sunfang]

1. Rush in
2. Attack The first one in sight
3. Find best target while attacking the first random guy
4. Change to better target

Not gonna stand outside the fight looking for a target :)

LOL ^

Over time as MA I learned what things where before I ever even hit the group. Since Mythic is promoting a "what you see is what you get" moto I dont think you will have to sit around with your thumb in your you know stink what.

Finding the best target is what might become the challenge if Mythic decides to do some crazy stuff. Like forming a battle line that your opponents cant simply run through and have to go around.

Traditionally seak and destroy ideas for support have been the most successful. Time will tell if this holds true or not.

[Fruitpunch]

well my general rule in MMO's is..

Whatever makes eye contact with me burns

[Ashanor]

I didn't vote, but since I will be ranged DPS my targets will start with healers, then other ranged DPS, then whatever else is left.

It really depends how the game plays out. It could be a little different than other MMO, but in previous experience this is how I play.

[Rasek]

Then my friendly Black Orc uses his aoe taunt and I lol at all your guys doing 50% damage.

I really think that WAR is gonna be different that other MMO's where the support classes aren't always going to be the prime target, and if the opposing tanks use thier utility correctly you'll end up worse off by not dealing with them first.

i hardly believe one tank can cripple many players. Tank job i believe is to counter the burst dmg potential of an enemy group by nulifying or limiting the dmg of some of them to som e point that the heals can keep up with the dmg dealt to that unit.

An AoE taunt skill would be in a rather long cd.

[Loekii]

i hardly believe one tank can cripple many players. Tank job i believe is to counter the burst dmg potential of an enemy group by nulifying or limiting the dmg of some of them to som e point that the heals can keep up with the dmg dealt to that unit.

An AoE taunt skill would be in a rather long cd.

I would disagree.

I think it would be intended to have such a far reaching effect, so that you basically 'want to target' the tank early, less you are basically fighting against his 'support' of the rest of the group. It would almost have to be that effected, less people would just 'ignore' the taunt effect.

However, if the taunt effect basically significantly mitigates damage, a smart group is going to want to remove that 'buffer', rather fight through it, trying to kill the 'healers'.

I am hoping that WAR group PvP will be such, that the fights are long and tactical, rather than what noob can spam the most with their RMT purchased items.

[Sunfang]

I would disagree.

I think it would be intended to have such a far reaching effect, so that you basically 'want to target' the tank early, less you are basically fighting against his 'support' of the rest of the group. It would almost have to be that effected, less people would just 'ignore' the taunt effect.

However, if the taunt effect basically significantly mitigates damage, a smart group is going to want to remove that 'buffer', rather fight through it, trying to kill the 'healers'.

I am hoping that WAR group PvP will be such, that the fights are long and tactical, rather than what noob can spam the most with their RMT purchased items.

That would be a fantastic approach and revolutionary.

[Rasek]

I would disagree.

I think it would be intended to have such a far reaching effect, so that you basically 'want to target' the tank early, less you are basically fighting against his 'support' of the rest of the group. It would almost have to be that effected, less people would just 'ignore' the taunt effect.

However, if the taunt effect basically significantly mitigates damage, a smart group is going to want to remove that 'buffer', rather fight through it, trying to kill the 'healers'.

I am hoping that WAR group PvP will be such, that the fights are long and tactical, rather than what noob can spam the most with their RMT purchased items.

If the tank can debuff the entire enemy group with taunt that easy and in a very short cd, thats not tactical, thats making every fight the same boring "recipe". The way you want things, there is no tatic, there is "go for the tank whatsoever"


edited: and taunt has a 50% dmg debuff.

[Grondoth]

I would disagree.

I think it would be intended to have such a far reaching effect, so that you basically 'want to target' the tank early, less you are basically fighting against his 'support' of the rest of the group. It would almost have to be that effected, less people would just 'ignore' the taunt effect.

However, if the taunt effect basically significantly mitigates damage, a smart group is going to want to remove that 'buffer', rather fight through it, trying to kill the 'healers'.

I am hoping that WAR group PvP will be such, that the fights are long and tactical, rather than what noob can spam the most with their RMT purchased items.

This seems to be the way warhammer is going with tanks. And I say it's about time that tanks become the target that they're supposed to. PvE is built around damage absorption, damage mitigation(I know that's confusing, but I donno what else healing really is) and damage dealing(With other things around the side, like CC and buffing, but those are mostly to reduce damage taken and focus damage done, or to increase the ability of everyone to do their roles). That's... a tad reductionist, but I think it's at least mostly true. But what happens to that system in PvP? Damage absorbers are useless, because they're straight ignored. Damage mitigators are targeted because they can't really do anything to protect themselves, and if they CAN, they're an even bigger threat. And damage dealers go free, or are cced too. CC the tank, kill the healer. Wheee!

Unless you're, you know, the tank or the healer. In which case, you're frustrated. Admittedly, I'm an mmo newbie. But it seems that these types of systems inevitably go this way. Being good at absorbing damage means nothing when noone hits you. Being good at healing others means nothing when everyone hits you and you can't do anything about it. Give healers CC and damage, and they're just a bigger threat. Give them survivability, and they are just able to live longer. Give healers all those things mentioned, and they're kinda overpowered, but still frustrated. They don't get any freedom and get stuck being the first targeted. And quite frankly, that's not what they signed up for. That's what the TANK signed up for, to be the focus of the fight and direct it that way.

But turn Mr. Tank into a support machine(While keeping his toughness and nastiness in melee), what happens? Well, ignore him and you're rooted and snared on top of it, doing half damage while you're scared to the buffed groupmates and the guy in plate armour is mad at you. Very, very mad at you. It becomes a sticky situation where you can try and not kill the tank cause that's hard, but you still have to DEAL with him. You can't ignore the defensive protector of the group anymore, even though he's tough as nails and you have the entire other group to deal with. That's a GOOD thing, it lets the tank do his role as a defender.

See, the tank's role was the only one that normally couldn't be done when ignored. THAT's why he was so very undangerous. Ignore the healer, he's still healing. Ignore the DPSer, he's still DPSing. Buffers, CCers, Debuffers... they all are dangerous when they're ignored. Don't hit the tank, and his job can't be done! he's there to defend, and most of the time he just is kinda irritating when ignored. So you CC him and go after the targets that can hurt you if you don't pay attention to them. And poor Mr. Plate/w shield gets to wait around, being aggravated until he goes and either rerolls a damage dealing class or does something to make himself do damage. Cause it seems like those were his only real options.

And from what I've read, there's not much CC in this game, either. Maybe they've been hiding all the 45 second aoe mezzes, but nothing has been released or transcribed from a gamesday about those. That also means you can't CC Mr. Plate wearer and have at his healy and burny companions.
I like this very much, it'll let everyone have their say in combat, instead of sitting and watching it. This can favor numbers over strategy, but I'm not too worried about it. I'm sure good teamwork will still have a big part in victory even if everyone gets to fight.

What does all this nonsense mean? Well, nonsense. But it also means that I think warhammer's going after a different approach to tanks than has been done before, which'll make FF the healer strategies harder to pull off. Which will make the worries about warrior priests being gimped cause they're fighting a little less pressing, and all this hullabaloo and healer angst seem a little silly. Not that healer angst isn't warrented, I'm a healer by nature. I even fixed tanks and people in planetside while everyone else was having fun in their respective tanks and max suits or with their respective guns and helmets with cool faceplates. I had a visor.

As for tactics being limited, I think that's madness. Offensive tactics need to take into account the tank, yes, but defensive tactics have much more depth. More than "Hide, CC everything you can and heal yourself, Mr. healer. We'll... help CC, too." And with more defensive tactics, more offensive tactics have to arise. It's like predator prey relationships, but before the prey had two broken legs and the predator had free range over how to pick out it's target. Kinda like that, only not as dramatic. And the metaphor doesn't really work cause everyone is both a predator and prey. We're fighting, you see.

[RexT]

Nice write up Grondoth, I also hope that tanks play a more substantial role in combat. But the fact remains, when people do get around to attacking the healing classes the WP will be the first one they turn to :)

[Drusain]

It's really too early to say, even if you've played years of DAoC and gained millions of RPs like I have. This game is completely different, and the mechanics are very different from that of DAoC or any other game.

Tanks can taunt, and make themselves an easier target than their allies. Furthermore, the healing classes are very capable of taking care of themselves.

Runepriests are wicked good and will AE dmg+knockback you if you get near them.

Light tanks are much more of a threat than they ever were in DAoC. A Choppa in frenzy is like a pre-1.62 Berserker (as long as the target is immobile.) Debuffs and effects are now big threats for light tanks too; they aren't just pure damage anymore. My friend and I were talking the other day about a MEAN tank train of a Chosen, a Maurader, and a Choppa. A Chosen can debuff an opponent, Maurader can smash the opponent into the ground, and Choppa can frenzy on the opponent. A Zealot could debuff in the Chosen's place too and then be able to heal afterward.

Even in DAoC, going straight for the healer or dressie wasn't always the shortest way of beating enemies. In the final days of my guild, what we would do in 8v8 (against a tank-heavy group that bunched up the tanks) is get the tanks together, and then have a reaver bomb along with a WoC bomb and AoG from the paladin, along with the normal damage from our tanks. That damage can't be outhealed. Once the tanks are gone, then it's only a matter of time until the enemy's support falls apart.

[Nightmare]

Depends on the class I am. Healers are usually first in most cases though.

[Pseudoman]

Its too early to tell for sure but I think healers will still remain a priority, along with squishy caster classes and melee DPS. The one thing that has the potential to change this, is the PvP taunt. Which may be a real boon for those who love the idea of a tank that can actually "tank" in PvP.

[Da Tank]

anyone with half a brain would go Healer>DPS>Tank.

but since the tanks are supposed to have viability in pvp here in warhammer,,it could be switched around into any spot,,second or first or where i listed...but healers always come before dps.

[NillR]

Haha, the one in the dress ofc!

[Drusain]

anyone with half a brain would go Healer>DPS>Tank.

but since the tanks are supposed to have viability in pvp here in warhammer,,it could be switched around into any spot,,second or first or where i listed...but healers always come before dps.

Well that's always been because reverse DPS (healing) in most games is much higher than DPS that multiple can do. A healer in DAoC or WoW could easily outheal an attacker, and sometimes multiple attackers. So basically, as far as utility goes, an open healer's reverse DPS is a much bigger threat than any other character's DPS.

But since we don't know DPS compared to reverse DPS in WAR yet, we really don't know just how "dangerous" reverse DPS is yet. On the flip side, we don't know how powerful DPS is either, but I do know that the melee DPS classes have lots of goodies to make their DPS static like in many other games. They are getting a lot of effects on their attacks too, which adds to utility. Furthermore, the melee DPS will be less armored than healers too, making them a consideration for a target, as well.

Ultimately, the target you'll want to kill first is whatever is the biggest threat overall. If it's the healers, fine. If it's the DPS, fine, if it's the tanks, then fine. The "biggest threat" is basically whoever will potential have the biggest numbers, whether it be DPS or reverse DPS.

[Evander]

Hmm, it is a pity to see so many people still choose the "Support Class", due to the general logic of it all.
That should say that either allot of people on this board are die-hard PvPers/RvRers, or that they refuse to live in on the moment of entering a battleground.

I've also noticed that allot of people have been wondering why I added the "Melee Healer" In the poll. That is because there is a difference between the healer up front and the healer in the back. The reason why I started this topic. Seeing that this game has collision detection, most melee DPSers and tanks are incapable of getting passed the melee defense they have to face first before they can get to the healers and raged DPSers. Seeing that a Melee healer will be up front fighting as well he might be targeted first before any other career.

Also keep in mind that the opinions might change once everyone has played this game and has come in contact with the Tank class. Who's taunts and collision might obscure your run to the back-up support. But we'll see that in due time.

It's good to see allot of fresh ideas and good opinions about this topic and keep 'em coming.


P.S.
I made this poll multiple choice because one never has a single target upon entering the battle. But please refrain from selecting all options, there is a "The first one in sight" option for that.

[Rowhin]

Hm, you forgot the "Those pansies with the pointy ears"-option. I'll definitely go for any High Elf first. If there is an Archmage, and if he's in a dress at top of that, I don't care what happens around me, he's going down :D

[Kozai]

Why settle for just 1 first target? The nice thing about the zealot is you can cripple the tank and the healer at the same time.

Ritual of Fragility on the tank.(Invoke a Dark ritual that reduces armour of harbinger bearer, increasing the armour of groupmates within 60ft). Stick a dot on it. Give mark to caster that allows ap drain on attacks and let them hit the healer.

Maybe tzeentch's Plan - Target and all enemies within 25ft of them regain AP 20% slower for 15s
and/or
Tzeentch's Talon on the tank as well - Target's armour and resists are reduced by 35% for 6s

Tank goes down faster so we lose the detaunt and less heals from the healer. Though if i see a paladin... srry Warrior Priest I'm gonna debuff and nuke/drain the disgusting bug. Got a long term hatred of them since waaaayyy back in the day of p&p rpgs and WoW's made it that much worse.

[DrainBamaged]

If its RED its DEAD!

[Brannigan1973]

I am a big believer in taking out powerful ranged dps first. In just about every MMORPG I have played that archetype is usually low hit point/low defense and if you train maximum dps on them they can usually be killed through any kind of healing they recieve. They can also cause havoc if left alone for even a little bit.

[Halios]

From DAoC - In group RvR, it's better to CC the healers (because they're usually the weakest against CC, next to cloth casters), and then quickly take down all the DPS while the healers are disabled. trying to CC the DPS characters usually doesn't work, because they have lots of abilities that negate CC. Same in WAR, it seems.

From WoW - Lowest HP characters, and then moving up, in open PvP. Very few priests seem to heal.

In more organized PvP, sheeping the dps characters and killing the healers works effectively.

[Shillen]

I would say the biggest factor is how easy they are to kill. Of course if there's a healer alive then that makes almost anyone else much harder to kill in general and that is why the kill the healer first mentality exists, but that isn't always the case. Sometimes it even comes down to spec. In WoW I would always kill a fire mage before the healers, but if they were an ice mage you couldn't because they would just iceblock and your group would be completely out of position and basically screwed. Likewise how easy it is to kill the healer is a big factor as well. Using WoW as an example again, you would never kill the paladin before the DPS classes. Paladins were just far too hard to kill.

Supposedly healing won't be as powerful in this game and that might lead to bumping DPS classes up the kill order list as well. Of course it also seems to take longer to kill people in this game, which would make up for the slower healing. We'll just have to see how it works out. But I think the individual career and their abilities matters more than the archetype they belong to in terms of kill order.

[Mo0rbid]

my first target would be the one I see first

[Gretha]

I think it realy depends on the situation.

Runepriest example:

Fighting Runepriests
..... it is wiser to leave the Runepriest for later and go after the heavy damage dealers or tanks first. They pose a more direct threat and, if ignored, are likely to tear you apart before you are able to work through the Runepriest’s defenses and healing powers.
and
It is important to note that runes retain their power even after the Runepriest expires.

But then I read abilities like :
Alter Fate, Resurrects all allies within 30 feet. Anyone who is brought back from the dead will also be healed for a large amount over 9 seconds. (Rank 4)

every kill so far has been in vain if you wait to long.


Maybe it will be more importent to steal the enemys APs ,than kill a special target first.

[Dalwin]

I think it realy depends on the situation.

Runepriest example:

Fighting Runepriests
..... it is wiser to leave the Runepriest for later and go after the heavy damage dealers or tanks first. They pose a more direct threat and, if ignored, are likely to tear you apart before you are able to work through the Runepriest’s defenses and healing powers.
and
It is important to note that runes retain their power even after the Runepriest expires.

But then I read abilities like :
Alter Fate, Resurrects all allies within 30 feet. Anyone who is brought back from the dead will also be healed for a large amount over 9 seconds. (Rank 4)

every kill so far has been in vain if you wait to long.


Maybe it will be more importent to steal the enemys APs ,than kill a special target first.

It is very situational. It depends not only on who you are facing but on what class you are and on the makeup of the rest of your group. There is no one-size-fits-all best answer to this question.

[RedAries]

The way this game seems to be balanced reminds me more of Guild Wars in everything. In that game, the main goal was to kill or disable the healers, but their healing was SO good that you could NOT focus one healer, you had to put one or two out of the action before you could take out the third (8 man teams almost always ran 2 main healers and 1 backup healer)

The thing here is 'take out'. No neccessarily kill. Mesmers were capable of making a monk's life difficult with their anti-spellcaster tactics, illusions and mind control domination.

At the same time however... because Mesmers can make a monk's life difficult.. you need to take out... the enemy Mesmer first otherwise your Monks are toast.

90% of battles in Guild Wars are stalemates (healing/defense is way too strong) or one sided dominating wipes (if one team didn't bring enough healing) which is why I quit playing, so my priorities in WAR will likely be different.

[th3maninblak]

Actually, now that ive thought about it some more, your gonna have to find some way to take the tanks down pretty quick as well. The fact that taunts are working in PvP, along with collision detection and some pretty good DPS make them a force to be reckoned with and not ignored.

[Overpowdered Rouge]

I will attack the tank duo who are both guarding each other, and both have me taunted

thats just how i roll

[silex]

Support classes typically magnify the power of their allies by more than a factor of 2. If they did not, you'd simply run more tanks and DPS in their slot. Therefore, they are my primary targets.

I'll believe the "tanks can protect" mantra when I see it. DAOC's Bodyguard and EQ2's taunts are the only abilities that I've encountered that force this to happen. Reducing one enemy's DPS by 50% isn't near enough to stop an assist train yet.

[Gretha]

Support classes typically magnify the power of their allies by more than a factor of 2. If they did not, you'd simply run more tanks and DPS in their slot. Therefore, they are my primary targets.

I'll believe the "tanks can protect" mantra when I see it. DAOC's Bodyguard and EQ2's taunts are the only abilities that I've encountered that force this to happen. Reducing one enemy's DPS by 50% isn't near enough to stop an assist train yet.

Do you know what happens to a tank if his allies get attacked?
And what the Melee Dmg dealer will do if you turn your back on him?
While you try to beat down the armored ,self-healing,guy with 50% of your dmg.

Focus a target right from the begining might lead to an
exposed position and enemys with a full grudge bar.

Wait to long, and they have build up a defence you can hardly break through anymore.


the Melee DPS class might play a leading part there.
fast strike in, and a fast strike out ;if an enemy is weakened.

No simple bot-like "if healer in sight : charge and kill it"
Because the other classes will become very dangerous
if you try to ignore and bypass them.
Turn the battle to your advantage so that they won't bother you to much.
But if your group just run towads the support classe ( like Lemmings) .......:skull:



Or at least I think it might be that way :-|

[silex]

Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. The overwhelming trend in MMOs to date is that the heavy tanks do not have the tools to adequately defend their support classes.

I love it when we have heated debates over complete speculation.

[Gretha]

Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. The overwhelming trend in MMOs to date is that the heavy tanks do not have the tools to adequately defend their support classes.



defend might me the wrong word.
they can't prevent that the enemy goes straight for the support class.
But maybe they can raise th price the enemy has to pay for it .
So that it will depends on the situation if it was worth the price.

[silex]

defend might me the wrong word.
they can't prevent that the enemy goes straight for the support class.
But maybe they can raise th price the enemy has to pay for it .
So that it will depends on the situation if it was worth the price.

I sincerely hope that is not the design focus of heavy tanks.

[Dracus]

lol I look at the poll and it shows tanks are last. we are still fixated by our old stereotypes, me included. We are going to have to change our thinking or some of these classes (cough*ironbreaker*cough) are going to put a hurting on your side if you try and ignore them..............the more I think about it the more I see and like Mythics concept on this

[Grondoth]

I sincerely hope that is not the design focus of heavy tanks.

I hope not, too. The IB seems to kinda be built this way, but maybe it's just my reading of how grudge works. I've heard a lot of positive things about him, so he's got to be a pretty good defender.

I'm curious, what did EQ2's taunts do? I've read into guard and protect and intercept in DAoC,(Although maybe I'm reading outated information, because adding a block chance to someone doesn't seem to be a wrench in the FF machine) but I can't find any real detailed information on EQ2 taunts.

[Gretha]

Honestly I see no other way.
You can't force players to attack the tank if they don't want to.

But if they attack his allies the tank gains grudge
that he can use for abilities like.

Catch 'em by suprise
grudgborn fury
or
Your time is now
to kill ,stun ,reduce dmg or badly injure the assist train befor the support characte dies or has to gain some distance

If they don't want that to happen,they have to attack
the tank first while he's weak, and not the support character.

No one would try to beat he tougest target first unless the "or else" is worse.

[Myling]

Go for the tank, once he's down all the other are a cake to kill. ;)

Unless the enemy tanks are more concerned about who to attack than who is getting attacked. Then you just ignore them.

Then again, shouldn't tanks be attacking, so they oppose a threat?

I'm confusing myself. Anyways, back to topic.


I hope that we will need to go for the tanks first.

[Siegmen]

I put the one in the dress only becuase I'm not in beta so i don't know the mechanics of the different classes. However in DAOC the soft target normally gets gang just becuase it's soft and the healer cant keep up with the DPS being laid down; at which point your group is now 1 up on the other. That and soft targets are normally glass cannons and need to die fast.

I think it may be different but from watching some of the videos and reading some of the news there are classes that power up through combat (more then just morale) so they may end up being the first target just to prevent them from powering up (i.e. maybe the magus and bright wizard's high teir morale skill is just so over powering they need to die asap.)

But again i still think the guy/gal in no armor will be the first target.... then the healers gets busy trying to keep him/her alive. Collision detection will make all of this much more tactical as well, positioning made or broke 80% of my fights in DAOC and i forsee that being even more important in a game with CD.

[Shillen]

There are twice as many DPS classes in the game as tank classes. This means in a given skirmish there will be twice as many DPS players as tank players. This means that, at best if all the tanks are extremely coordinated, only half of the DPS players will be taunted. So most of them will be free to attack whomever they want. The others will either have to attack the tank or suffer 50% damage reduction on their target.

This is assuming, of course, that you can only taunt one target at a time.

[silex]

I'm curious, what did EQ2's taunts do? I've read into guard and protect and intercept in DAoC,(Although maybe I'm reading outated information, because adding a block chance to someone doesn't seem to be a wrench in the FF machine) but I can't find any real detailed information on EQ2 taunts.EQ2 taunts just forced your target onto the tank for a short duration. The encounter taunts would effect your entire group, including healers, disrupting even healing.

[silex]

This is assuming, of course, that you can only taunt one target at a time.

Agreed. I'm also curious to see whether or not those taunts only apply to melee DPS, or if ranged DPS characters are effected by it as well.

[Joeydevil]

I have always been a "get teh healer" type of guy. If they are gonna bring the healer right in my face I am gonna kill that first.

[RexT]

Agreed. I'm also curious to see whether or not those taunts only apply to melee DPS, or if ranged DPS characters are effected by it as well.

I'm pretty sure that most taunts have a limited range of 30-40 feet or so, so it is possible that they will be effected. But obviously the melee DPS will be taking most of the taunts.

[Xplicitt]

Well i voted first target in sight, thinking that meant your first time ever spotting an enemy so i screwed that up.

If I am playing the Career i think I am going to be playing (Witch Elf) then I will use her "Assasin" abilities to quickly take out the lowest HP target. Which i would then most likely target a Ranged Support Career next and work on them.

[Berrik]

Im going to force a 1v1 against a chosen, then beat him to death with a pregnant goose.

you heard me...

[Gemini]

Im going to force a 1v1 against a chosen, then beat him to death with a pregnant goose.

you heard me...

You're just bitter because of the trailer :P

[Anborn]

I was tempted to choose "The one in the dress" because it's so damn funny, but the support always goes first. Hacking away at a tank or a player being healed will earn you a ticket to the graveyard. It shows how important the classes can be and at the same time how hard it actually is to play them effectively in pvp when your THE target. As I'm planning to roll a WH day one retail, my target as melee dps will always be the support, barring they aren't wearing plate. So if your planning on playing a zealot or a shaman, I'll be that annoying Witch Hunter. ;)

[Berrik]

might be a tough choice, if the tanks are doing their job it might be more effective to try to disable them first. If you're beating on a healer doing 50% dmg, while the tank is hitting harder and harder, you could be in trouble.

[Draxonfly]

the first target to get in my way..

and after a heap of random targets, then I might start to think about what I 'should' attack first.. maybe..

[Evander]

If its RED its DEAD!

Haha, reminds me of the quote from the Sons of the Storm (http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/index.html).

[Zeetchmen]

Low hp, and the one in the dress! :mrgreen:

[Dunhill]

I didn't vote as I'm confused at what you mean by a fist target.

[Delolith]

The melee DPS of course since I am the tank and have to protect my support/ranged DPS. I would stay close to them and make sure they stay alive from the melee DPSers.

Delolith

[Swiftblades]

Support most votes? Come get me! I'd say I pick the most of them, debuffing anything I see / or trying to debuff enemies healer to death.. I'm going to focus more on healing others anyway :)

[Arch0n]

The answer for me is simple: The first target I have depends almost entirely upon the size and makeup of my own group, and the apparent size of theirs.

If I'm rolling out with just three people and no healer, I'm going to be VERY selective in my fights. Kill their healer first if they have one (because some healer classes REZ... no-brainer there). Then deal with their DPS if we can, otherwise bang through their tank and then chase the DPSer across the map, fleeing for their life.

LIKE A LEETLE GURL.

Otherwise, I'm hoping to roll with a few tanks, a few DPS, a few healers. My group of 12 doesn't care very much who the first target is when the opposition has 3 or 4 people. This assumes that everyone's level is proportionate of course.

[Accipiter]

Where's the choice for "The one the Main Assist has targetted"?

Other than that....the healer. Always kill the healer.

Or whoever killed me last time. I hate that guy.

[Sentack]

I'll have to read the whole thread later tonight but I wanted to throw in my two cents now. When it comes to picking a target, I doubt many people have a strong formula as to who to pick. Honestly I think Support classes break the standard Rock-Paper-Scissors mold so badly it doesn't work anymore. That being said, my initial targeting logic, when I can think straight in a heated combat, tends to be like this.

- 1) Over extenders first. These are the guys who run solo to the back of your group to get the healer. He accidentally got out of range of his support. he dies fast.
- 2) Does the Highest DPS Class beat any Support?
- Yes? Take out the Highest DPS class first. They will wreck your group if you can't stop them.
- No? Take out the Support first. You'll waste too much time on anyone else if you can't stop the Support from keeping your enemy group alive.

Usually this is a pretty effective way to get any group down. A lot of variables though can wreck this formula. How easy is it to interrupt players? How effective is Crowd Control? What's your group make up? etc. These things really change the dynamic of the fight.

Over all, we need to learn more about how the game works to really settle on any one tactic. Hopefully the game will make the most efficient group one that's well balanced between melee, range, tankage and support. But usually the reality is, Support and Range tend to be all you need in a pvp fight.

[oakae]

Always the healer first, then target the players who will die the quickest

[Malenx]

I prefer focused damage on the fragile dps characters. If I can't kill them before a healer pays attention, then the healers got to go. A healer protecting a bunch of fully healed people is not a threat yet, as long as our healers can keep us up as well.

If the healer is on his game, then he's got to be burnt down. It's a war of attrition, and unless you can cause the healer to drain all his ap to worthlessness, then you better burn him down quick.

[Origomar]

Not to be rude or anything but who the hell would pick the tank? Apparently 35 people have...thats kinda playing into their plans...Does give up your non npc status yet!!
I can kinda imagine this "ZOMG SHINY KILL KILL KILL!!!"

[Mogdin Wrathammer]

Anything with pointy ears.

[Mikhail87]

Voted the first one in sight, but honestly anyone who isn't paying attention to me. Positional attacks and all. Don't turn your back or you'll have a rapiear sticking out the other end.

[Ningiliath]

I didn't see a " Poncy High Elves".

Plz add it to the list plzz

[Biomechanical]

My first target will be my team's tank, and then my team's melee dps. I'll be spamming heals on them while the aforementioned fools are trying to kill them in vain.

[Rmedies]

It's going to be interesting trying to figure out who's really doing ad hoc buffs and healing with all of these new classes doing a little of each.

I tend to always go for the support class.
Healers > buffers > the guy closest to me > person in robes

[phenomiac]

The supports/healers are naturally the first targets...it's plain logical thinking, but there are always exceptions (i.e. single target nuking whoever needs to be nuked, the healers cant keep up with that...the fun part is, this IS usually the healer).

[jaskey72]

i just curious to see when the game comes out which will die faster.
a healer taking 15% damage cause of a debuff on his enemy from a friendly tank
or a tank taking 100% damage.
i think its all going to come down to which healer it is, for example, i would say if i saw a group of black orc and shaman i would just go ahead and take out the shaman with the debuff of damage, but if i saw a knight of the blazing sun and a warrior priest i would get kindah mixed up because they both have lots of armor and one can heal the other.

[Browncoat-WHA]

Off to RvR you go. Old topic, but more relevant now that we know more about what is out. :)

*MOVED to RvR Discussion with a tranquilizer*

[Simpo]

no no no, dont kill the healer first. Ranged DPS! you kill the ranged DPS then work down to the healers.

[Nerissa]

I will memorize what healers of the opposing faction look like.



And then I will kill them and attempt to get the rest of my team to do so. Healers really are the backbone of any team, being able to extend a group's collective HP bars by a great amount.


The healer has to die or be made useless temporarily in order to get a kill without setting up some insane spike team.

[Fyrburn]

If even groups were on opposing teams, the first I would suggest going for would be the healer.

If that's not possible then focus on taking down the main DPS one at a time.

[Hildace]

i definitely think that hte ranged dps casters should be killed first....let htem live and you can prob kiss your team goodbye...with a couple ppl assisting they arent hard to drop (even if they are being healed). Once they're down, yeah, mess up teh healers or whatev

[Valador]

It varies depending on the situation at hand... but my general practice as an offensive tank (especially if theres a defensive healer to guard our support) is to rush the enemy healer or robed ranged DPS, which usually means I run in first, through their front lines, and people all target me first in order to save their healer or because I ran in first... this accomplishes two things... I get their attention and fulfill my role as tank... and second, I distract their healer by beating his causing him to use his heals on himself, leaving his team mates open to attack should they choose to go for the "zomg wtfpwnbbqsauce" zerg the 1 guy who ran in kill. aka the WOW mentality.

[Kenyan]

I think it really depends on how the mechanics work.

Given the little bit we do know about tanking, and how the game is being designed, it seems like it might be counter productive to think that a healer is the 'easy' target.

I also think effective WAR targetting is going to be distributed based upon Group PvP -- where members will have roles and different target priorities.

I fully expect to see tanks and DPS going up against other tanks/dps, while the healers and supports are duking it out (aka debuffing each other to mitigate their effective support). Gone are the days of 'focus fire' and 'squishy' targeting

I think the player that thinks there DPS class is going to be a one man killing machine, able to tear apart any target of their choosing, is going to be in for some disappointment.

Again, I think the foundation of the group dynamic is going to change our perception of target priority.

I paused a YouTube video of a tank class with their Taunt ability readable and (I believe) read on a WAR wiki that Taunts would reduce the dmg of the taunted unless they attacked the tank. It's the little things like this, as well as the things you mention, that have me so excited to play this game.
I am a big assist train advocate as it can be such a strong tactic, but the addition of elements mentioned as well as things like player collision has me pumped up for an increased level of complexity and player thought involved in being more successful in rvr skirmiching that just repeated /assist-/burst-/assist-/burst situations over and over. :D

WTT rl kidney for time machine or beta invite. PST.

[Tjuhl]

1. the one with the lowest hp

the dead can't annoy me any more ;)


2. the supporting class / melee healer

depending on my own class...
enemies aren't healed --> they are more likely to die "occasionally" ;)


3. the tank

if he taunts me, I will rather fight him then fight inefficiently against others

[Valador]

3. the tank

if he taunts me, I will rather fight him then fight inefficiently against others

Makes sense, but something to keep in mind - your damage may go to crap, but say you're going after a healer, despite being taunted... you could still interrupt his heals, drop some debuffs/CC etc. on him and keep pressure on the healer.

I'll be glad to see the finish product to see how the chains hold together in a group situation.

[Siegmen]

It will end up going the way DAoC went.

Pure situational, with an 'A-Train' (A-Train is a term means 'assist train' or a group of meleers that all assist eachother and pile up so much dps they one round any cloth wearer) any non tank target the MA (Main Assist) picks will die heals or not. Sometimes its best to pick something that can take the hits to get the healers power low before you move on to the tanks.... a healer with no power can be saved till the end.

Supression will also make a big difference, how much lock down can you do (even with out mez's and stuns). If you can lock down casters with other casters then the meleers can ignore them and go after other meleers.

In conclusion the general rule is: kill anyone in cloth first. As the game evovles that rule stays pretty fluid

[Tharg]

Being a Tank im heading straight for the Melee DPS, or if theirs a low health target ill be on him like flies on... well you know.

[Maranatha001]

Why I picked "the one in the dress", everyone knows that the guy in the dress is your first target. Why? Because cloth = not very durable = wont be AS hard to kill as someone in plate = healer/caster = important = low health = easy kill (HP wise).

Anyways, Dress first!

[Weezel]

Let's see...

The healer with the dress, who usually has the lowest amount of hps


Should be the same in WAR as every other mmorpg, healers are the main tanks in pvp/RvR. What will be interesting is if they choose to ignore this fact, or do something innovative to mix it up a little.

[Ac1dBurns]

Since I'm a psychopath I'm going to go for the tank first while everybody goes for the support class. RWAR!!!! :cool:

[MHDShogun]

I would say that it really remains to be seen how tanking mechanics will work. I know that ironbreakers at least will have an ability to make someone do 50% less damage to everyone but himself. That's probably not enough for people to think he's an easier target than the average healer, sure, but this is just one of the abilities tanks will have to make their allies harder to kill. I voted lowest hp, then healer, then cloth, but the only real pvp experience I have is from WoW, so as soon as the game comes out, all bets are off.

[Kharuail]

i didnt read this whole thread but is the last option "the one in the dress" an allusion to a boss' humorous statement from UBRS in WoW? Rend Blackhand i think?

oh, and my real choice would be the one with the lowest HP, although i may end up doing a lot of AoE

[Vyker]

Its not so suprising your remarks seeing as how many if not all of you came from WOW and not DAOC. You seem to break down the situation to dps, tank, or healer. That comes most likely from Blizzard's approach of giving every class some sort of cc.

Your main target is really going to be who can control the field of battle the most. In DAOC it was just aoe mez and assist. Naturally your first target was the guy who could aoe mez.

I think the Zealot will be the guy who has the hardest time from keeping his head on his shoulders. He does happen to be a healer. Someone like a shaman, however, who has to do some damage before they can even become a serious healing threat will likely not be a first target. He may well be a priority, but if you have someone who is dangerous from the get-go, they will likely need to be neutralized first. Of course if you have coordinated cc, that may not be necessary. For instance, if you feel a warrior priest to be a healer that should be killed first, consider the fact that if hes not in melee range, he can't generate any ability to heal. If you can keep them rooted and/or stunned, then he can wait till the very last because he won't be a threat to anyone at any time.

Its a meta game. The group thats relying on the warrior priest to be the healer will need to take out ppl who can cc him, healer or not.

Basically to tell who you need to target first you will need to assess the abilities of those you are going against, know your group dynamic and priorities ahead of time, and judge as best you can by those general rules on the fly.

WOW was kinda a disappointment to me in the pvp realm. Every class had cc, damage, and damage mitigation. If for some reason they didn't there would be endless crying on the forums until they got it. In the end was there really a difference in playing a mage vs. a lock, or a rogue vs a feral druid? But I digress.

[Beldayne]

the vibe i'm getting from Mythic is that tanks are a type of support class. alot of the tanking abilites are there to disrupt what the other guys are doing to your side, aoe taunts, flinging teammates about, all kinds of fun stuff like that.

i really hope they can make tanks a threat that has to be targeted early, otherwise the archetype should just be removed from the game.

btw, the guy in the dress? have you seen what blackguards and swordmasters are wearing? hehe

[Picklesnshakes]

I'm going for the Melee DPS first, simply because they are the ones who can easiest kill me. When they're out of the way, I can focus my attacks on the support or tank.

[Maluzu]

I realize it is a lot more complex and very situational, for what it is worth here is a simplified version.

Have 1-2 ranged dps focus on caster/healers, the rest take down whatever target they can get their hands on, focus fire... having healer(s) pre-occupied with one target recieving focus fire results in anything eating dirt quickly.

[Zyzus]

You did not list my preferred option.. High Elves. :evil:

Bloody pansies..

[jaz]

I'll go for whoever is causing the most threat, if there is someone all up on mah boi's, im gonna be taking em down, whether it be tank, or dps. If there is no clear dominator on the field, no one doing the most obvious damage, i will take their dps down and heal mah boi's.

-jaz

[Lump]

Im gonna be playing a Black Orc so ill prolly target anyone who's causing trouble for my healers. If im a the front of a charge ill be targeting the players who pose the most threat to the softer members of my group ie MDPS and RDPS - in a case where i have to choose between mellee dps and ranged ill prolly plum for the mellee, charging though enemy lines to get at the ranged DPS would mean that the healers would have to move up.... right into hostile mellee dps.

[Krulltak]

As a Choppa, my first targets will be the soft ones, and the wounded, whom I will use to warm up on. After going Berserk, I'll aim for all the support classes first, then the Ranged DPS, then the Melee DPS, and if all of that is taken care of, I go for the tank.

[Vaylix]

The one with the lowest hp... :) He's like a sitting duck.

[gilo]

As a Choppa, my first targets will be the soft ones, and the wounded, whom I will use to warm up on. After going Berserk, I'll aim for all the support classes first, then the Ranged DPS, then the Melee DPS, and if all of that is taken care of, I go for the tank.

Sounds like a decent plan. Also, your signature = the truthiness

[Evander]

i didnt read this whole thread but is the last option "the one in the dress" an allusion to a boss' humorous statement from UBRS in WoW? Rend Blackhand i think?


Actually it is from Nefarius, not Rend. (Wise- comment)
It has wisdom in it though, the one in the dress is usually a weak-armored player.

[Drei]

In any sort of organized RvR your group makeup should make you decide who your main target is going to be. In any sort of unorganized RvR target what your good at taking out. I will most likely play a melee fighter of some sort so i said id go for the one in the dress. In most games the melee vs caster is a classic matchup as the caster can have a huge edge until you get close and tear them apart. Some healers just seem like theyd be too hard to take out as they have decent armor and the capability of healing themselves.

[Gaktuk]

In larger scale unorganized combat, I normally look for:

A wounded player,
or
a support class (mostly healers) trying to support.


If it is organized I tend to follow the lead of who we are to attack (outside of a couple rare cases where I spot problematic players).

[Hildace]

In any sort of organized RvR your group makeup should make you decide who your main target is going to be. In any sort of unorganized RvR target what your good at taking out. I will most likely play a melee fighter of some sort so i said id go for the one in the dress. In most games the melee vs caster is a classic matchup as the caster can have a huge edge until you get close and tear them apart. Some healers just seem like theyd be too hard to take out as they have decent armor and the capability of healing themselves.

hmm...guess i was under the impression that casters in dresses were the ranged dps, o well :P

[Creazil]

I'm attacking the tank.
because he won't be doing the kinda damage that the melee dps would be.
the melee dps won't be rushing to save him like they would on support.
And I am not attacking him to kill him, more to build up essence.

[Drei]

hmm...guess i was under the impression that casters in dresses were the ranged dps, o well :P
I thought i made it clear that casters have the advantage until you get up close and personal.

[Baradun]

I'm looking forward to War, if these polls hold true 37% of you will be coming under the weight of a grudge infused anvil having turned your back on the real threat, one anoying tank whose built up a ton of pain from all those who laid a finger on the healer.

[Ceyl]

First target: mdps.

Group strategy: One guy to to keep the healer busy. One guy to harass the ranged dps. The rest focus on taking out their melee dps or the tank if they get taunted.

I think it will take too long killing the healer, since he just runs away while healing himself. Meanwhile half your group has been rooted by the tanks and the rdps just fire away. And what about your own healer and rdps, do they not need protection?

Im a bit disappointed that everybody think in WoW terms without even reflecting on the new mechanics.
Then again, I could be wrong.

What I hope is a battle of AP (Action Points), since that would make the system work. Warhammer TT, for instance, was not a battle of killing, but rather a battle of morale. Many a time has my HE army faced destruction at the overwhelming numbers and strenth of the skavens, only to see half their army fleeing just because their weekest unit was beaten :).
edit* HE have high morale, while skavens have very low in TT.

[Warmaster tibs]

In a big battle I will try to kill the healers first then the weakend players.(and the guys in dresses.)

REASONS
1. A dead enemy is a good enemy.
2. Healers will just rez all the dead guys.
3. Guys in dresses scare me.

[Hildace]

I thought i made it clear that casters have the advantage until you get up close and personal.

wow, what does that have to do with what i said? I was talkin about my first target, not who has whatever advantage...lol...I'm trying to figure out what hte OP really meant by 'ranged dps'...is he talking about an archer or a caster in a dress?...i just assumed it was a caster in a dress :P lol

[Hildace]

First target: mdps.

Group strategy: One guy to to keep the healer busy. One guy to harass the ranged dps. The rest focus on taking out their melee dps or the tank if they get taunted.

I think it will take too long killing the healer, since he just runs away while healing himself. Meanwhile half your group has been rooted by the tanks and the rdps just fire away. And what about your own healer and rdps, do they not need protection?

Im a bit disappointed that everybody think in WoW terms without even reflecting on the new mechanics.
Then again, I could be wrong.

What I hope is a battle of AP (Action Points), since that would make the system work. Warhammer TT, for instance, was not a battle of killing, but rather a battle of morale. Many a time has my HE army faced destruction at the overwhelming numbers and strenth of the skavens, only to see half their army fleeing just because their weekest unit was beaten :).
edit* HE have high morale, while skavens have very low in TT.

Do you think that their healer(s) will be able to keep a ranged dps caster alive while hes bein owned by 3 diff ppl? Worst thing you could do is let the dps caster live for any longer htan he/she should....and if u are goin for a melee dps it might take u a while to kill..with healers keepin him up? I dont see why you'd focus on a melee dps or tank when a caster should be much easier to kill and would cripple their dps right off the bat

[DeathByCactus]

I'll go for healers, casters. At least if the Black guard remains an anti-magic tank, I will specialize to the best I can to killing casters. As vengeance for always being nothing but fodder to casters in the past.

[Ceyl]

Do you think that their healer(s) will be able to keep a ranged dps caster alive while hes bein owned by 3 diff ppl? Worst thing you could do is let the dps caster live for any longer htan he/she should....and if u are goin for a melee dps it might take u a while to kill..with healers keepin him up? I dont see why you'd focus on a melee dps or tank when a caster should be much easier to kill and would cripple their dps right off the bat

Notice that im playing a swordmaster, taking out ranged dps is not my expertise. My answer is based on me having a group. The ranged dps will not deal much damage when one of my groupmates is in his face. The healer will (hopefully) only be able to heal himself, because, there is another of my mates keeping him busy. Im attacking mdps because otherwise he will kill our healer, and as a tank it is my job to prevent that. Actually i would try and taunt several targets, but we only had one choice in this poll.
Besides you cant just run up to the rdps, because there will be a tank in the way. And he will root you, and taunt you and knock you down. And how would your healer be able to heal you while you are chasing the caster? While your group is focused on a single thing, my group is trying to utilize each carriers potential to the fullest at the same time.

But of course, if all the fancy talk of tanks working in RvR is just hot air, the okay, Ill hop on the WoW technique. I think ( and I hope) its going to be very situational, so ill really hope there is not just one strategy for every situation.

[Drei]

@hildace: You qouted my post so i thought you were responding to me. And in this games case there are the ones in the dress that are RDPS but there are also more heavily armored RDPS such as the engineer

[Hildace]

Notice that im playing a swordmaster, taking out ranged dps is not my expertise. My answer is based on me having a group. The ranged dps will not deal much damage when one of my groupmates is in his face. The healer will (hopefully) only be able to heal himself, because, there is another of my mates keeping him busy. Im attacking mdps because otherwise he will kill our healer, and as a tank it is my job to prevent that. Actually i would try and taunt several targets, but we only had one choice in this poll.
Besides you cant just run up to the rdps, because there will be a tank in the way. And he will root you, and taunt you and knock you down. And how would your healer be able to heal you while you are chasing the caster? While your group is focused on a single thing, my group is trying to utilize each carriers potential to the fullest at the same time.

But of course, if all the fancy talk of tanks working in RvR is just hot air, the okay, Ill hop on the WoW technique. I think ( and I hope) its going to be very situational, so ill really hope there is not just one strategy for every situation.

WoW technique? Having an assist train was a proven technique in DAoC long before WoW ever came out. Do you honestly think that a single tank is going to keep 3 attackers off of a ranged dps caster? While my group is killing their caster early on, your group is splitting your dps on 3 different targets, 2 of which having pretty good armor. What if their group is running 2 healers? I'm pretty sure it's going to be easier to double or triple team a ranged caster than to solo take down a melee dps or tank when their team could potentially have multiple healers in the group. Also, my group has 3 other people that can be healing, cc-ing/attacking ur healer, etc.

I played a pole armsman back in DAoC--which you could almost call a 'tank' in the way mythic is using hte term--and was either an MA or assist as an offensive dps---and no...they didnt target me often at all...and i wasnt that far away from my own healers to be out of healing range if they did try to target me--so dont think that there is one specific 'TANK' way of playing the 'tank' class--slow, hard hitting 'tanks'(such as knight of the blazing sun :D), when assisted by other dps-ers should be able to knock out a ranged dps caster with ease---the greater the frontload dmg being done to the caster, the faster the caster drops, and the less time there is for a healer to react and get enough healing off to save him.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what kind of crowd control the different classes get, and how effectively these casters can escape/stay alive vs 2-3 attackers assisting.

[Teowulf]

My first target is always the target with the lowest amount of health. Better to take out someone who is a near guaranteed kill before a healer has a chance to heal them, and then focus fire on healers. Although, someone in a dress would be tempting too.

[CaptainAwesome]

The support careers like in every other mmorpg out there

[Ceyl]

I will avoid qoutes to make this post shorter.

Hildace, judging from your previous posts, you may havent been following the game so closely. I will not bother to go into detail about the carriers, so thats up to your own research. Let me just say what I (and others) has said before; if everybody can just ignore the tank, then the tank is pretty useless. Im basing my assumptions on what the devs have said. You seem to base yours on DaoC.

[MaxCure]

This is really a matter of situation for me...

I don't at all know how mechanics work, but I will think there will not be nearly as powerful croud control abilities as we have it in wow. Also the tank mechanics are probably worth much more than in wow.. here you actually have a decent chance of making space between enemy melee dps and your squishy allies...

As I said above its really a matter of situation.. First of all it depends on the class I am playing. If I am playing a tank for example, I would most likely try to encourage other to try and take down a squishy melee dps class, If enemy supports is focusing on this guy and spam healing him, I would try to make space for ally melee dps classes to go by the battlefront and into the support classes faces. Or you could go for 2 weak enemies making it harder for support classes to keep them both up.. maybe they will waste combat points on overhealing which is good on the long run as well...

If I played a different class I would do different. A ranged dps career would probably try to go after the weak tank, who will be vulnerable to ranged dps:)

[Rerisen]

I think its different if I am solo (then probably a opportunistic kill strategy, the weakest) or in a group (whoever the lead DPS character is going for, or based on the group strategy).

But one thing that could throw a whole wrench into this equation is stealth. If it is in the game, it is going to change greatly who you can easily see and go after and who you can't. Also as a DPS class healers will likey be downgraded targets, if your side has stealth characters going after them. It also presents more pressing defensive problems for certain characters that have to watch over the squishies and their distance to get back and help much more closely.

How fast characters can be bursted down vs healed with people on top of them will obviously be a factor as well. If in 6v6 a group has 2 healers and they can keep a target up even under concentrated fire, then they obviously must be dealt with in some way first.

[Hildace]

I will avoid qoutes to make this post shorter.

Hildace, judging from your previous posts, you may havent been following the game so closely. I will not bother to go into detail about the carriers, so thats up to your own research. Let me just say what I (and others) has said before; if everybody can just ignore the tank, then the tank is pretty useless. Im basing my assumptions on what the devs have said. You seem to base yours on DaoC.

I'm just baffled that a tank could simultaneously limit THREE attackers from beating down a ranged dps caster. Seriously, how has your research enlightened you? A simple explanation--im not about to go researching every ability when the devs are still changing things...and it is still a great idea to knock out the ranged dps caster early on--even if a cc-er of some sort ends up being your first target.

By the way, with the dev's addition of keeps and lessening of hte importance of scenarios, i dont see why a more DAoC-like thinking would be that far off-track.

[Stiltzkin]

If someone is close to dying... finish them. If they're all pretty full on health half should attack the healer and the other half should focus on a low damage mitigation DPS. Tank can't guard both and healer can't heal both. This all said tho #1 constant thing is protect your own healer as well.

[Passionfruit]

I put target melee healer first, before reading your post, however I have to admit i tend to target the first person I see and then make more tactical decisions once I have got a few shots off at my target.

[Darzok]

I read that black orc's are slow so most likey what ever i can catch.

[Ceyl]

I'm just baffled that a tank could simultaneously limit THREE attackers from beating down a ranged dps caster. Seriously, how has your research enlightened you? A simple explanation--im not about to go researching every ability when the devs are still changing things...and it is still a great idea to knock out the ranged dps caster early on--even if a cc-er of some sort ends up being your first target.

By the way, with the dev's addition of keeps and lessening of hte importance of scenarios, i dont see why a more DAoC-like thinking would be that far off-track.

Maybe not 3. But being able to hold 2 attackers for short time does not seem unreasonable. That would mean, the last one would probably be cannonfodder for the RDPS. I agree that if you have the opportunity to quickly take out the RDPS then go for it, and if you are playing MDPS it is pretty much your job to get past the tank to the squishy target.
However, if I as a tank go for the RDPS right away, then I would leave my own squishy friends unprotected and I dont think they would like that. Also I would not be fulfilling my role as a tank, but rather trying to be MDPS. All my tanking abilities would be wasted and thus I dont maximize my potential.
Imagine two opposing groups where all the melee classes just ran past each other, kill the casters and turn to each other. I wouldnt want to play caster then.
I imagine there will be 2 basic strategies, but with MANY alternatives, depending on your own group and the opposing one.
1) Take out all the dps quickly. For this to work you have to get past the enemy tank
2)Take out the tank(s) quickly. For this to work you have to prevent the healer from healing the tank.

Note: All the classes have some CC but tanks and not the RDPS are the primary CC in this game (as far as Im informed).
Also a Shadow Warrior is considered a RDPS but is far from the squishy target a bright wizard is. An Archmage on the other hand is a support class though he resembles more the "caster type" of other games.

As for specific examples here is some sample abilities from a Black Orc. These are old info and therefore not reliable, but can give you an idea of the tank-tools.

http://www.war-resource.com/careers/blackorc.php

There is least 1 AoE root and 1 AoE snare ability, not to mention the guard ability that increases your targets armor etc.

[Klepa]

Depends on whether I'll play a shaman or a black orc but.. in general. The elf.

[Slick_willy1019]

I usually target the healer
or the Squishies
Always found the tanks to be very intimidating :(

[ZeppelinJ0]

My first target? You! :D

[Gunter]

While it is sense to get rid of the most damaging enemy first, I am glad that Mythis is trying to make you have to use battlefield startegy. ie shield wall preventing yo from getting to teh squishie. I like that. Make people become soldiers fishting a war and it will be a blast with ferocious battles and not "ooo ooo kill the healer and they are all dead (ignoring all else and not having to worry about them)"

Kill the damage first...if you can.....we tanks can now prevent you :)

[Velryn]

I put the one with the lowest HP, however at the very beginning of the fight I'd end up going for the RDPS or MDPS, however if the healer is a shaman or a Zealot I'd probably try to get to them if possible.

[Tomkek]

First generally melee healers on low hp since I'll play a Disciple.

Then healers then melee classes, lastly ranged dps, since they would be the hardest to catch...

Tanks, well I leave those to the ranged guys. :P

[CaptainAwesome]

I would probably go for the SH or WL pets just to annoy them :cool:

[Biff64gc]

It varries a lot on siuation or class makeup, numbers.

If I'm a pure dps class then i'd probably try and take out their dps or their support classes first.

However, I plan on playing a chosen, so I will probably concentrate more on their melee dps in an attempt to help keep them away form my support. Most of the class mechanics are unkown to me though, so hard to say at this point.:-?

[Tom_Hobbes]

I'm just baffled that a tank could simultaneously limit THREE attackers from beating down a ranged dps caster. Seriously, how has your research enlightened you? A simple explanation--im not about to go researching every ability when the devs are still changing things...and it is still a great idea to knock out the ranged dps caster early on--even if a cc-er of some sort ends up being your first target.


The only real pvp cc classes, from the descriptions we have at the moment, are the tanks themselves. So that's not really a concern. And if you can hold or distract two, your rdpser isn't really worth his salt if he can't take _one_ on his own. Especially if he's the debuff ccer (mage/engineer) or the pet-one (squig of collision-detection = win). I know people love to be overpowered to ridiculous degrees, but at some point you'll have to rely on your team-mates to be competent. Sorry.

[Hildace]

The only real pvp cc classes, from the descriptions we have at the moment, are the tanks themselves. So that's not really a concern. And if you can hold or distract two, your rdpser isn't really worth his salt if he can't take _one_ on his own. Especially if he's the debuff ccer (mage/engineer) or the pet-one (squig of collision-detection = win). I know people love to be overpowered to ridiculous degrees, but at some point you'll have to rely on your team-mates to be competent. Sorry.

We'll see if these ranged casters can 1v1 someone that is up in their face beating them down while they are trying to cast. Keep in mind that melee STILL has a healer that can heal him. And i highly doubt a ranged caster will be as effective when someone is beating on him than when he is out casting on his own.

[Baconbitz]

tactics will be tough to determine before we get the game. BUT, if there are abilities in the game or classes in the game that are extremely well at keeping support tied up and spending all there time trying to survive/heal themselves, then you could sick one person on interupts and your other dps on a light armored/low hp target. more than likely a combination of biggest threat/easiest to kill will be my first target in that case. If keeping there healer/healers locked down proves to be too difficult, then I say just kill them first.

one of the best 8 v 8 strats I liked in DAOC was to sick some ranged interupt/dps on there healers and make them think there getting assisted on, but actually have your assist train working down on of there lighter dps classes.

[Tryble]

tactics will be tough to determine before we get the game. BUT, if there are abilities in the game or classes in the game that are extremely well at keeping support tied up and spending all there time trying to survive/heal themselves, then you could sick one person on interupts and your other dps on a light armored/low hp target. more than likely a combination of biggest threat/easiest to kill will be my first target in that case. If keeping there healer/healers locked down proves to be too difficult, then I say just kill them first.

I don't think attaching one guy on the healer to harrass and occupy them will be all that effective. A sharp tank will probably pick that person out and drop a taunt on him quick as lightning. And from what I've been hearing (not certain, though) most of the interrupts and stuns belong to tanks and not DPS. It'll probably take heavier pressure to keep them busy.

And on a side note, if you take out a force's healers, then they can still kill you but not for long. But if you kill their DPS, then your victory is all but assured as they can no longer but any kind of significant damage on you.
Since groups are always going to be different, you'll have to play it on a case-by-case kind of thing.

[Murder]

Tank, because i'll be able to shred them apart as a marauder, and they are anusiance as a healer.

[Tak'zenen]

I generally choose the person with the lowest XP. They're much more vulnerable than anyone else and if focus fired healing just can't help them quick enough. Next is either healer or MDPS. MDPS are the most threatening to the group i feel because they are gunning for your healers. Leaving any healer alone is a bad idea, keep him up and he'll return the favor. Snare & drop that mutha effer before he has a chance to do irrevocable damage.

[Syrak]

It depends, but I go for the squishiest / easiest to kill followed by a healer. Try to control tanks and harder to kill targets.

Thats what I did in WoW arena and it worked really well. Granted there are always situations where it could be different due to character level, gear level, current health of a player, etc.

[Tak'zenen]

In WoW it was /target warrior, switch targets immediately and hope to kill his partners before he wrecks you.

[Syrak]

In WoW it was /target warrior, switch targets immediately and hope to kill his partners before he wrecks you.

Depends on what season you're talking about and what setup you were running. Also warriors are very very easy to control unless all you had for CC was a warlock.

[Orion]

Theorycraft only goes so far in these sorts of situations. Alot of the time I found you generally tend to target whoever came at your group first :D

[LatukiJoe]

In WoW, its always the one with the dress.

[craptacular]

The melee DPS. I know that's probably not the tactically correct choice all the time, but i hate those ! :D

[Bundles]

Healers make a better 3-4th target.

Take out their clothed dps, then mdps, then thier healers, healers can't keep up, and you tap them out of action points/ mana quicker attacking people with less AC/Hp's then they do. Most likely healers will have ways of avoiding combat in some form or another. So your first attacks could be wasted, but without knowing the dynamics of the classes, it is too early to tell.

[Tasbin]

depending on the situation, as a DoK, likely the guy I can sustain the most damage against...that being the tank. While a DoK can do good damage, their healing comes from doing damage to an opponent. The more time spent switching opponents is less time spent healing which overall leads to a weaker team. So maybe the tank with the highest hp but lowest armor to max out damage->soul essence->healing my group. Or maybe the melee healer, since killing a healer is always a priority and a healer healing themsef is just as much hp to turn into soul essence for healing as a tank but is a higher priority target. otherwise, focus firing on whoever my group decides to open a can on.