Shoot/shoot or shoot/stab?

[Dustandpolos]

Simple really; given the excellent news about Shadow Warrios being the versatile sorts they deserve to be, are you planning on striking from the shadows then melting away to hit again from afar, playing the true hit-and-run sniper, or will you open with a volley of arrows to sow pain and confusion then rip into the Druchii with your blades before they can regroup, finishing them in one bloody ambush?

For myself, I favour the latter. I think any Shadow Warrior would take some pleasure in executing justice, close, personally and bloodily.

[Eredhel]

It depends on whether both are viable options or not. i.e, will the pure ranged option be able to successfully keep foes at a distance and have an option available if enemies close the gap. I like the sounds of both, but need more details :)

[Dustandpolos]

Hmm should've added a 'wait and see' option...ah well. I assume they'll do their best to make either option equally viable, and though it may turn out 1 is under-powered the issue of balance applies to every class at this stage, so I'm really more asking about which idea you prefer, and assuming until I see any evidence to the contrary that they'll pull it off.

[Trennet]

Don't overlook the ability to switch between the two tactic sets -- a great feature for when your enemies get used to you as a pure bow spec.

[ChosenOne]

For me its stay at a distance as much as possible. They wear leathers which means they arent heavily armored. If you get caught in melee expect to get ganged up on quickly. Its a simple matter of survival. Melee when you have to only. Once you go melee you are pretty much melee until the other side is wiped, retreats, or you take the time to once again move away from your opponents.

[Gemini]

For me it depends on how much Paul exagerated with the hit and run/sniper techniques. If you really can do good damage with things like that, I'd probably go bow/bow. However, if thats not as realistic, then bow/sword.

[mongoose]

no no no, if you were going to use a line it should have been.....

Path 1: Bow Bow Bow Bow Bow Bow Bow Bow Bow Bow 8-)

[Ashanor]

Ranged all the way is my preference, melee is for the weak. :)

[Vikingkingq]

I like the mixed version, because any true Nagarythi isn't happy until he's bathed his hands in Druchii blood.

But the orc raises a good point, if you can flip back and forth without too much effort, it does somewhat invalidate the poll.

[Chrismorris]

Bow specialist, If the tank does a good job u can just let rip and dps the hell out of eveything.

[Fusko]

Dakka Dakka Dakka Dakka!

[Shadow_Warrior]

I'm all about the bow

[Daric]

Depends pretty much on what you are doing. For PvE bow specialisation would probably be better, but in PvP it's pretty unavoidable that someone will get up close you you, and here I think a mix would be better.

[senmance]

Ninja-star build for me.

[Grimald]

Depends pretty much on what you are doing. For PvE bow specialisation would probably be better, but in PvP it's pretty unavoidable that someone will get up close you you, and here I think a mix would be better.

I would of thought it was the other way, in pve the mob is going to end up next to you and if youdon't want to aggro more you're going to have to stay put and melee him down. In pvp if you have a good tank you could probably do the hit and run with pure ranged dps alot easier.

[Ashanor]

I just hope they remember to give bow the tools to keep range, or attempt to at least.

but in PvP it's pretty unavoidable that someone will get up close you you, and here I think a mix would be better.

Personally I do not think their melee will be anything worth using, and that is the way it should be. Like he said when he clarified in the podcast, you are going to have to use your bow a lot, even if you try to be melee oriented. (paraphrased)

Personally in my opinion as a long time archer, if someone is in my melee range I am doing something wrong.

[Daric]

I would of thought it was the other way, in pve the mob is going to end up next to you and if youdon't want to aggro more you're going to have to stay put and melee him down. In pvp if you have a good tank you could probably do the hit and run with pure ranged dps alot easier.
I was thinking more along the lines of PvE instances, but fair point, if the tanking works well in PvP then the bow specialisation route might be just as good if not better.

[ungenius]

i think it would be cool if there were melee 'finishers' and such... so you go range to soften up your target that somehow boosts your melee damage to 'finish the target off' with some cool moves.. kind of like the shadow warrior in the mark of chaos trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_KlINBUYc4
the shadow warrior basically owns the guy with arrows quick as hes charging in and messes people up with swords.
of course he ends up getting squashed at the end, but thats just cuz warhammer game trailers can't end with a 'happy' ending ;)

[Scerce]

My prediction: Shadow Warrior "stabby" bits are going to be about as effective or instrumental to success as Disc of Tzeentch stabby bits. It's there for when melee DPS gets in close, but it's not how you're going to be doing your killing.

So I choose: bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow etc

[Thorens]

I voted to shoot from afar, Ive always like the sniper in any game I play. So.... Bow! Bow! Bow! For me! :D

[ChosenOne]

The only Melee tactics and skills I would wish for are Defensive minded. I dont want the damage melee tactics. I will at that point be hoping for someone else to damage the target on me while I keep myself alive. Otherwise its all about the bow and finding the engineer groupings to stand behind.

[vehemoth]

Bow specialist, If the tank does a good job u can just let rip and dps the hell out of eveything.

I disagree with this statement. In a PvP encounter, there is a certain amount of anavoidable tendency for enemy melee to make there way towards ranged enemies. Choosing bow/bow means that while you are at range you will be much more efficient with your bow skills but you will be a vulnerable target without the range you are so depedent on. Choosing bow/melee means you will be more versatile in your damage and more survivable in hand to hand. Range is still your best friend but you also have tools to handle melee situations. It is a question between efficiency and versatility.

[Blaze]

I don't like the idea of beeing a hybrid when it come to dealing ranged damage.

I like beeing a pure range and using guile, positioning and kiting to stay out of melee. If you ever played WoW and got aimed shotted in the back from 41 yd away and turned around to see nothing, because some complete night elf hunter already feign death and shadowmelded, that was me.

So I'll go bow bow bow bow bow bow and stand somewhere high up and hard to reach, taking potshots at low-armored targets and generally beeing really annoying.

[Dracius]

I don't like the idea of beeing a hybrid when it come to dealing ranged damage.

I like beeing a pure range and using guile, positioning and kiting to stay out of melee. If you ever played WoW and got aimed shotted in the back from 41 yd away and turned around to see nothing, because some complete night elf hunter already feign death and shadowmelded, that was me.

So I'll go bow bow bow bow bow bow and stand somewhere high up and hard to reach, taking potshots at low-armored targets and generally beeing really annoying.
You sir, do the archer class justice.

*SALUTE*

As for me, I'm not sure what my preference would be. I'm a bit of a purist in how I spec my characters, I take the thing the class is designed to do good, and I focus on doing it better. However, in DAOC I had strayed from that and invested a lot into melee as well, but in that game you couldn't really kite, however as a Ranger I could actually go toe-to-toe with most pure melee classes. I even took down an Armswoman (think 2hand weapon warrior with plate) in pure melee.

So for me, I wouldn't know unless I actually spent a good several months playing the class what direction I'd go with my spec.

[Vengence]

if your looking for a solo class, the shadow warrior bow, melee is the best way to go... and if you have noobish tanks during a pvp match then you can have a back up routine through the course of the battle and make good use of your blade skills... win/win situation with the shadow warrior:D

[Dustandpolos]

I tend to find that ranged dps classes pose something of a problem when matched against melee classes. Either you give the ranged class enough tricks to be able to prevent an opponant closing with them, in which case the melee class doesn't stand a chance and there's no prestige or bragging rights to be had from a foregone conclusion, or the ranged class is unable to prevent their opponant eventually reaching them, and as soon as that happens it's game over for the ranged class, ie same problem, different favorite. I like the bow/melee option mainly because it suggests that you will have enough tricks up your sleeve to delay the enemy reaching you while you wear them down from afar, but then when they do reach you (as someone invariably will eventually) you aren't immediately dead; in 1v1 it comes down to whether you've injured them enough already to close the melee damage gap, in team games you have the ability to hold them off and actually repay some of the damage while waiting for team-mates to come to your aid.

For me that beats a system where if you kite you win, if you get caught you're dead. Mind you, this is really just to do with my play style; I consider all types of sniping/kiting cowardly and boring. If you aren't risking your hide, you aren't entering into the spirit of the thing! As such, a ranged class that doesn't rely on running like a whipped dog at the first sight of a real warrior closing on you sounds like a ranged class I can enjoy :)

[Kaeldor]

For me that beats a system where if you kite you win, if you get caught you're dead. Mind you, this is really just to do with my play style; I consider all types of sniping/kiting cowardly and boring. If you aren't risking your hide, you aren't entering into the spirit of the thing! As such, a ranged class that doesn't rely on running like a whipped dog at the first sight of a real warrior closing on you sounds like a ranged class I can enjoy :)

In what way are you not risking your hide if you kite? As you just saidd yourserlf above, usually kiting classes are near 100% dead when the opponent manages to close in. If it is not impossible stats wise to close in, it is as risky a playstyle, as someone charging in. Of course you can consider it cowardly, but it is not less risky.

[Blaze]

For me that beats a system where if you kite you win, if you get caught you're dead. Mind you, this is really just to do with my play style; I consider all types of sniping/kiting cowardly and boring. If you aren't risking your hide, you aren't entering into the spirit of the thing! As such, a ranged class that doesn't rely on running like a whipped dog at the first sight of a real warrior closing on you sounds like a ranged class I can enjoy :)

Some people enjoy playing class cannons. I like the idea of beeing really dangerous, but having to stay on my toes because one mistake may be fatal. I'd say thats risking your hide a lot more than playing a class that actually can survive in a melee if things go bad.

But it's good that Shadow Warriors will be versatile enough to appeal to different kinds of players.

[kizen]

I consider all types of sniping/kiting cowardly and boring. If you aren't risking your hide, you aren't entering into the spirit of the thing! As such, a ranged class that doesn't rely on running like a whipped dog at the first sight of a real warrior closing on you sounds like a ranged class I can enjoy :)

Considering snipers are one of the most valuable weapons on a battle field, I think that statement is a bit absurd. There is nothing more demoralizing to an enemy than seeing his friend shot dead next to him, and have no idea where the enemy is. Furthermore, snipers are incredibly good at positioning, which is key in combat. And the "spirit" of War, is to win... not mindlessly run at the enemy waving a huge sword.

[Lucrece]

I personally like to be self-sufficient even in a group, where I don't constantly need to be babysat by teammates. I feel that the bow/melee combination gives me that.

[ChosenOne]

Thing is though....this Isnt WoW. The devs have explicitly said there wont be one shotting. So chances are with the system in place we have with WAR, you will more then likely be spotted and gunned for at some point.

You do realize witch elves have an ability that allows them to jump forward quickly? There goes that range you had between you. Pure bow shadow warriors will get worked over by witch elves. If you arent ready to go toe to toe hand to hand with them for atleast a little while as your teammates come to help then you will be the one dying fast not your opponents.

[Fusko]

Thing is though....this Isnt WoW. The devs have explicitly said there wont be one shotting. So chances are with the system in place we have with WAR, you will more then likely be spotted and gunned for at some point.

You do realize witch elves have an ability that allows them to jump forward quickly? There goes that range you had between you. Pure bow shadow warriors will get worked over by witch elves. If you arent ready to go toe to toe hand to hand with them for atleast a little while as your teammates come to help then you will be the one dying fast not your opponents.
AFAIK, the jump ability is when they jump away from oponents. Agile Escape. :mrgreen:

[ChosenOne]

Ok so that makes it a bit harder. So they attack one of your tanks at the front and make sure and line up perfectly with you the Shadow Warrior and then use that move so that their "backwards" jump actually puts them right there with you. :D

Its all about finding a solution to your problem. In this case the problem is the Shadow warrior and how to get to him quickly. ;)

[Rofelen]

You do realize witch elves have an ability that allows them to jump forward quickly? There goes that range you had between you. Pure bow shadow warriors will get worked over by witch elves. If you arent ready to go toe to toe hand to hand with them for atleast a little while as your teammates come to help then you will be the one dying fast not your opponents.

I think you've mistaken this ability that the witch elves have. They do not have any ability to jump forward. Rather, they have an ability that allows them to jump BACKWARDS, out of melee range. A quick escape, not a quick advance.

Now, its plausible that a cunning witch elf might run behind your tank or other ally (assuming that one is near you) and then jump backwards (which is towards you) to get closer to you faster. Such a usage of the ability could be easily 'fixed' if found overpowered by making it so that the "jumpback retreat" only works after a certain amount of time engaged in melee with a target.

Irregardless, I can't help but feel that a finer spec would lie in "Shoot/shoot". Generally its better to play to your strong points and let other people support your weaker points, is it not? This is most certainly true in any PvE situation: PvE specializations are going to be very skewed in a particular manner, a manner that has the most output in ideal circumstances. Shoot/Shoot would likely have greater output in damage than shoot/stab, but lacks a certain flexibility that melee has.

The question lies in this: Does a player seek out and attempt to create and maintain an ideal situation (range between target), or does he prepare for all situations, becoming less rigidly defined by this ideal situation?

I feel that one should, using allies, terrain, or tactics, outsmart and distance himself from his foe and focus purely reaching that ideal circumstance when damage is maximized, rather than hedge his bets. I feel that he is a greater boon to his team this way, and team work is something to be valued.

edit: shoot, the previous two posts already clarified my first paragraph. Oh well.

tldr: Witch elves can't advanced quickly and (hopefully) a mechanic will be in place to stop them from "ally hopping", Shoot-Shoot is superior in both PvE and PvP because it offers greater benefits to your comrades and can excel better in ideal situations, all you have to do is strive to maintain that situation.

[BeldarinSkysabre]

I've not posted here before, but I've been lurking for a while. Interesting topic; here's my take on it.

I played an end-game Ranger in EQ2 (Skysabre on Befallen), and to play it properly, you HAD to be shoot/stab. However, that was because you didn't really pick. You got skills, you arranged them across FOUR hotbars of 12 skills (ew), and you used absolutely everything to maximize your DPS. This will not be how WAR is. My understanding is that for any combat, you will have approximately 10 skills equipped.

Now, what does this have to do with anything?

To offer melee as a choice you can make, there are obviously melee skills. But
Shadow Warriors love their bows.
Bow
Bow
Bow
Bow
Etc.

This means that to be doing your best damage, at LEAST some "bow" will be required. However, bow will require you to be distanced, and melee will require the lack thereof. This means that at any given time, you will not be able to use all of your abilities. You will be forced to run in and out of range depending on which attack you want to use. Now, the EQ2 comparison:

I looked like a rabbit on crack when I was raiding. There was no infinite string of bow attacks I could use, so I had to run in every 2 or 3 seconds to get in my melee hits, then back off again because bow attacks were generally better, but melee had to be in. Not to mention trying to make sure all my auto attacks were with bow instead of melee. How does this relate to Warhammer? Running around isn't what you want to spend your time doing. I only did it because it was absolutely necessary to maximize the effectiveness of my class. Basically, it's very hard to mix the two in my opinion. From what I've seen, it will be difficult to move in and out of melee range quickly and, in PvP situations, you will be an easy target for casters in particular.

Now, the problems with Bow/Bow all depend on whether they make it possible to keep your distance or not. I read in Grab Bag (I think) that ALL characters will have some form of 'Sprint', and certain classes will be able to enhance it in various ways (perhaps duration, speed, reduced cost, etc). This will probably be one of them. So if that's the case, then Bow/Bow will be very viable, while Bow/Melee will require lots of running and sacrificing of your safety net (distance from combat) in order to be as effective. So, I could go either way. But if it's even, and they compensate the Bow/Melee hybrids with defensive skills as well as similar damage, I'll be picking Bow/Bow just because I like dropping people before they see it coming, not letting them know I'm coming then giving them 10 seconds to react via heals (or escaping) while I run up to try to finish the job.

The only way I could see myself picking Bow/Melee would be if I were unable to keep my targets at a distance.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

I think it it depends on personal preference.

Either more dps & damage, or more utility & survival.

I would choose the latter....

[Spazzix]

The problem I see with shadow warriors being purely bow is that it encroaches on the bright wizards territory. That is, if both a bright wizard and a shadow warrior are standing at X distance from some poor tank, blowing him away, what distinguishes them? If they do the same damage, then the wizard is "gimped" because he doesn't posses the upgraded armor and melee abilities of a shadow warrior. If the wizard does more, then the shadow warrior is "gimped" because he is specced for full range dps, but he is being outdone at his own game--a balance issue Warhammer is striving to correct.

Traditionally, the caster may have a moderate amount of utility, but because the support class (I have been trying to catch up on the game, so maybe I am wrongfully interpreting "support" as utility) is being roled into the healer. This means that the bright wizard shouldn't have more than a small amount of utility, to avoid encroaching on the support archetype.

So, the shadow warrior, because of his higher armor class than the bright wizard, needs some incentive to play differently than the bright wizard:

Traps route: The shadow warrior has some type of "traps" thus making the shadow warrior want to lure the target into melee, even if only so that he may entangle ("root") him in a trap and go back to shooting with a bow

Melee skills route: Melee abilities that compliment the bow. For example a skill that, conceptually, tries to cut the straps of a piece of armor, exposing the enemy and making him more vulnerable to well aimed arrows (or perhaps we can just say a debuff ability which "examines" your target for chinks in armor, but must be used in melee range [because said chinks would be hard to discern at range]). Basically along the same lines as the EQ2 ranger example: requiring a bit of melee to maximize overall dps.

The magic route: I have seen scattered posts saying "all" elves would have at least a small amount of magic? If this is true, then perhaps the shadow warrior would have some of the "utility" traditionally given to the caster.

*Please note, I am not familiar with Warhammer lore, so these examples are completely arbitrary*

Anyway, the point I'm trying to get at is: The bright wizard is already a purely ranged dps class. He has (**I assume**) the weakest armor and weaponry possible, as is standard for dps casters in MMOs. The shadow warrior, while playing a primarily ranged role, should have incentive to compliment his ranged role with melee. This means he doesn't need to simply be sufficient at melee dps--no class should ever have to settle for being sufficient if they are correctly playing their role (they should be able to excel)--he can have a small, tactical melee role, distinct from the dps focus of those such as the witchhunter, marauder etc.

[BeldarinSkysabre]

Very good point. What makes them different?

From what I've seen:
Bright Wizards = Fire Fire Fire Etc
Shadow Warrior = Bow Bow Bow Etc

Probably resistances. Armor and Elemental Resists are usually two very different things, with casters having more elemental resistance (making them targets for Shadow Warriors) while the plate-armored tank is a prime target for the Bright Wizards, because all steel does against fire is get really hot and burn you even more.

Further, Bright wizards will probably be raining fire down on the ENTIRE front line, while the Shadow Warriors will be making the enemy healers earn their pay.

Take your pick, but in my opinion, that will be the difference.

Edit: I don't know HTML markups so I took out my attempt.

[Spazzix]

While the difference between magic and physical damage is a big one, it means that distinguishing the role of each would be completely dependent on the enemies. Further, the way they defined the general "rock paper scissors" of the archetypes says that all forms of ranged dps are strong against the tank (I don't interpret this to mean physical will be just as effective, but I see it to mean that a shadow warrior shouldn't be deterred from filling in his role because he can't find a suitably weak target). And as I expect there to be a slew of resistance armors/auras/buffs etc etc, the bright wizard could once again be placed in the same boat as the shadow warrior.

As far as aoe:
True, this is another classic feature that the casters hold themselves, but as far as defining their role by it (which could be absolutely fine, I'm a fan of characters build purely for aoe) they would need to be noticeably weaker in the 1v1 realm. After the things I've seen on the core set of "action" abilities, I personally don't see this as the route that's being taken. I believe that if a person wanted to make aoe their focus, they would do it in their choice of tactics and morale, not with the choice of class itself (though it is likely that bright wizards will be most effective at focusing on aoe).

While the differences are valid, I don't think they address the one-up shadow warriors have in their weapons and armor. I know Warhammer is breaking away from many of the typical features of MMO class definition, but the basic hierarchies of armor and weapons are too fundamental to do away with so easily.

[Spazzix]

Side note:

If I'm starting to diverge too much from the aim of the thread, please let me know and I'll start up a new one.

[Dracohouston]

The melee attacks sound a lot like the extra melee attacks wow hunters could get by speccing survivalist. Those attacks let you melee a little in pvp, but their main focus was on rooting the target so you could get away. It was still all about ranged attacks though.

We'll just have to wait and see how the melee abilities turn out I guess, but shooty-stabby sounds like a tough pvp build, while bow bow bow bow bow seems like your pure dps build.


Traps route: The shadow warrior has some type of "traps" thus making the shadow warrior want to lure the target into melee, even if only so that he may entangle ("root") him in a trap and go back to shooting with a bow


That's the dwarf engy's gimmick btw :)

[ChosenOne]

Keep in mind the damage types. SW's will be physical so they will be hunting for the lighter armored melee dps guys and the even lighter armored cloth dps and support guys.

That means they very well will draw some serious aggro from those melee dps guys. Now running away is fine and dandy but it really begins to break down your formation. If you can stand there and keep him in one place while your other dps then turns to take down your target then you have effectively been a huge benefit to your side by having that defensive melee ability. Yes YOU didnt do as much dps but the guy died instead of chasing you through the area causing all kinds of chaos. You as the shadow warrior were able to keep him in one spot and keep it handled.

The value of that is much greater then some people here understand. Its not just about your damage

[Spazzix]

The value of that is much greater then some people here understand. Its not just about your damage

That's what I'm trying to get at. Pure bow attempts for nothing but ranged damage, which is the place for the bright wizard, as I see it.

I think the idea I'm trying to extract out of this, as it was when I said "tactical melee", is around the same idea as holding the line for the good of the group as a whole. Putting it in the context of holding off a charing invader points out the idea much better though. It clearly shows where the wizard and the shadow warrior vary in their role.

I guess I'm just trying to point out the value of a shadow warriors melee. Though I'm sure that as pure bow is an option they put in, it will still be a viable build which won't hurt the role of a shadow warrior; and in the same way, it will be important to allow bow/stab shadow warriors to excel over bow/bow in certain situations. It seems bow/stab has been regarded as nothing but a "safety" build so that if something goes wrong it can be handled. There should also be the possibility for them to excel sometimes if they (bow/stab shadow warriors) set themselves up well.

Now, with all this said. My tendencies always lean toward making a class as pure as possible. And thus my first inclination is bow/bow. I just wanted to bring to light the other side.

[BeldarinSkysabre]

I'd say most of that is just going to have to wait for Beta. Need to see what they do to let you stay ranged, what max range is (ie, are you shooting from one step past melee range) etc etc.

One difference for sure is that I want to shoot arrows, so I'm not going to play a bright wizard. It goes the other way too, for some. :cool:

[ChosenOne]

If you are going pure bow spec I highly suggest making some friends that play engineers.;)

[Kaeldor]

Mainly written in response to Chosen:

Why do you think they'd make a class that is all about bow bow bow, if you couldn't play it well this way. Probalby you don't get only more damage when you concentrate on the bow, but also more options to keep people away from you, or get away from them, compared to the bow & sword style. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to promote the bow style at all.

For the difference to the bright wizard, probalby that wouldn't be that big, as they have the same role. I think having different kinds of damage is big enough to be good for both. Also a bright wizard might have more AOE, than a shadow warrior etc.

[BeldarinSkysabre]

When it comes down to it, all damage has the same roll. The difference between fireballs and arrows and swords is only that each feels unique when killing someone. But in the end, they're still dead.

If you want a real 'advantage', a bow-spec Shadow Warrior will probably not be able to use bow attacks on someone right in front of him. However, I see no reason why a Bright Wizard can't incinerate someone two feet away.

Which brings up another point, I think Bright Wizards will have to deal with resists while Shadow Warriors will have to deal with dodges (unless the physical arrow doesn't mean anything. In Guild Wars, it does, but in EQ2 it doesn't).

And on topic, uh, bow/bow people can shoot while bow/stab people can stab? >_>

[ChosenOne]

Mainly written in response to Chosen:

Why do you think they'd make a class that is all about bow bow bow, if you couldn't play it well this way. Probalby you don't get only more damage when you concentrate on the bow, but also more options to keep people away from you, or get away from them, compared to the bow & sword style. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to promote the bow style at all.

For the difference to the bright wizard, probalby that wouldn't be that big, as they have the same role. I think having different kinds of damage is big enough to be good for both. Also a bright wizard might have more AOE, than a shadow warrior etc.

Didnt mean to come across as saying the bow bow method is worthless. Of course its not. Wanting to max out your crit ability or something of that nature for bragging rights or just big hits on lightly armored players? Yes, bow bow is probably better.

If I get into a guild I am fully confident in and am required to be completely offensive and rely on guildmates to keep me going if I get attacked, then yes I would wish to go the bow bow method. Leveling up and learning the character while not with such a group though I will definately be looking to give up a little of the offensive bow power for some defensive and offensive melee. Thats just me though. I prefer survivability and longer lasting damage rather then pure punching power with a glass chin.

[BeldarinSkysabre]

If I get into a guild I am fully confident in and am required to be completely offensive and rely on guildmates to keep me going if I get attacked, then yes I would wish to go the bow bow method. Leveling up and learning the character while not with such a group though I will definately be looking to give up a little of the offensive bow power for some defensive and offensive melee.

I'm not sure how it will work. Does anyone know if you'll be able to pull your points from one...tactic?...to another. I'm really tired right now, I don't remember what the things are called, but you can't get all of them.

That would be a good question to ask them. If you don't like your class path, can you re-pick it?

[Dracohouston]

I'm not sure how it will work. Does anyone know if you'll be able to pull your points from one...tactic?...to another. I'm really tired right now, I don't remember what the things are called, but you can't get all of them.

That would be a good question to ask them. If you don't like your class path, can you re-pick it?

respecs?

Yep, AFAIK the money required is based on how many tactics etc you are dropping (instead of only being able to reallocate everything at once) But hopefully you can select the core of both paths and switch between them before you fight (theres a 5 minute restriction on tactic swapping, you have to be out of combat to do it).

Don't worry, no full rerolls to get your character tactic points allocated just right :)

[Kaeldor]

Didnt mean to come across as saying the bow bow method is worthless. Of course its not. Wanting to max out your crit ability or something of that nature for bragging rights or just big hits on lightly armored players? Yes, bow bow is probably better.

If I get into a guild I am fully confident in and am required to be completely offensive and rely on guildmates to keep me going if I get attacked, then yes I would wish to go the bow bow method. Leveling up and learning the character while not with such a group though I will definately be looking to give up a little of the offensive bow power for some defensive and offensive melee. Thats just me though. I prefer survivability and longer lasting damage rather then pure punching power with a glass chin.

What I hope is, that it won't even be like that, you could give the bow bow bow style survavibility via evasion in a broad sense, so that they'd end up with as much survaviblity as the bow and sword style. Of course with differences against different type of opponents.

[ChosenOne]

Well if both approaches have the same defensibility then I would definately go all bow without a doubt. As I have said the only way I would take melee skills and tactics is if they were defensive.

[Tyurion]

Any1 whos seen the mark of chaos trailer where a shadow warrior (or maybe woodelf) gets a chosen right in the next with and arrow then leaps in and deals out sharp steel death to the chaos filth should think bow/stab I plan on being shadow warrior and im gonna do that! :D

[ChosenOne]

Any1 whos seen the mark of chaos trailer where a shadow warrior (or maybe woodelf) gets a chosen right in the next with and arrow then leaps in and deals out sharp steel death to the chaos filth should think bow/stab I plan on being shadow warrior and im gonna do that! :D

Whats nice is with tactics we can try out these different techniques and not be forced into one direction and depend on other players to tell us about the other direction.:D

[Tyurion]

ill do u chaos scum p-twang! (that was an arrow entering ur eyesocket heh) :D

[ChosenOne]

ill do u chaos scum p-twang! (that was an arrow entering ur eyesocket heh) :D

That is unless I am playing my shadow warrior on your server:p

[Spazzix]

That is unless I am playing my shadow warrior on your server:p

Cross-realm infiltration!? Ah ha! This is the true role of the shadow warrior!

[rushtodeath]

If my past MMO experience is any indication, my best bet is that the primary function of the Shadow warrior (i.e. bow attacks) will make it the obvious choice for PvP, while the more well-rounded bow/melee will be for solo PvE.

[Tlear]

From daoc experience, balanced bow/weapon specs were best for all of the 3 archer classes. Difference in damage with bow was not really large enough to make it worth the point investment. One of the archers could even spec shield, which actually worked extremely well.

[ChosenOne]

From daoc experience, balanced bow/weapon specs were best for all of the 3 archer classes. Difference in damage with bow was not really large enough to make it worth the point investment. One of the archers could even spec shield, which actually worked extremely well.

Would you agree survivability reigns most important many times? Not saying its the only important thing but if you are dead you arent doing damage. Its pretty much that simple.

Also, keep in mind WoW guys, you dont have corpse runs. You will have to run your way back to the fight able to be attacked. That can be dangerous in RvR lands. Think you will have a healer to run with you everytime?

[Tlear]

Would you agree survivability reigns most important many times? Not saying its the only important thing but if you are dead you arent doing damage. Its pretty much that simple.

Also, keep in mind WoW guys, you dont have corpse runs. You will have to run your way back to the fight able to be attacked. That can be dangerous in RvR lands. Think you will have a healer to run with you everytime?

The way Archery worked in DAOC is that you had to stand still to shoot, plus you got interrupted when people hit you. In addition to that Archer melee skills were not bad at all. So if you had no melee ability you basically were completely helpless in melee but if you did spec some you could actually put serious hurt on people. Shield spec also gave you ability to stun people for 9 sec.. which was great obviously :)

On release in DAOC Archers were the closest thing to the GOD mode class in any mmorpg I ever seen. We will see how it works in WAR

[Rommy]

I am going for the ranged/melee.
I like having different opputunities killing people.

And some shooting and slice and dice after sounds very nice to me :p

[Selvandra]

I'm going with the shoot/melee

[ChosenOne]

I know alot of people think they are more useful to a larger group with straight bow dps but I would have to disagree.

Large battles are going to be crazy. Being able to have a little surviveability through the melee path will make you valuable in the fact that the healer doesnt have to be on you ASAP in order to keep you alive. There will be others that need healing as well. If you die to fast that could be a detriment to the group. Thats what the SW has over the bright mage. Survivability.

[Kaeldor]

I know alot of people think they are more useful to a larger group with straight bow dps but I would have to disagree.

Large battles are going to be crazy. Being able to have a little surviveability through the melee path will make you valuable in the fact that the healer doesnt have to be on you ASAP in order to keep you alive. There will be others that need healing as well. If you die to fast that could be a detriment to the group. Thats what the SW has over the bright mage. Survivability.

Who says the melee path will give you more survavibility per se? It could all depend on the situation, the other class and all. You could gain more against melee classes, but loose soem agaisnt classes like the socerer.

[Selvandra]

I know alot of people think they are more useful to a larger group with straight bow dps but I would have to disagree.

Large battles are going to be crazy. Being able to have a little surviveability through the melee path will make you valuable in the fact that the healer doesnt have to be on you ASAP in order to keep you alive. There will be others that need healing as well. If you die to fast that could be a detriment to the group. Thats what the SW has over the bright mage. Survivability.

Agreed,

Explained very well.
But i don't quite understand the healing part.

because either way if the person that is attacking you is on you(melee) then you might still need healing.
But the other point is that if you got range/melee hybrid then you can be doing damage back to them without trying to run away and shoot which will only cause you to lose health but be doing no damage back.

[Selvandra]

Who says the melee path will give you more survavibility per se? It could all depend on the situation, the other class and all. You could gain more against melee classes, but loose soem agaisnt classes like the socerer.

Thats the point to have survivability for both types, range and melee, so if your caught in either situation you can save yourself instead of being vulnerable to melee.

I'm going to be hybrid but i might have a little more range than melee.
So i can do damage while the melee is running up to me and once they get to me finish them off with a couple sword strikes.
But also having enough range abilities to be good against the other ranged enemies.

[c_vadnais]

I intend to test both sides of the fence myself, i'll try shoot/stab but i'll also try the shoot/shoot/shoot style as well. We can only GUESS how each will work in RvR until we actually try it. With no real experience with the class you can only make guesses on how it would play out in a fight and what you think you would need. Shoot/stab may be very effective, however shoot/shoot could also be very nice, its all gonna boil down to actually getting hands on experience and finding out how the individual plays the class best.

[Kaeldor]

Thats the point to have survivability for both types, range and melee, so if your caught in either situation you can save yourself instead of being vulnerable to melee.

I'm going to be hybrid but i might have a little more range than melee.
So i can do damage while the melee is running up to me and once they get to me finish them off with a couple sword strikes.
But also having enough range abilities to be good against the other ranged enemies.

You can get survavibility against melee in two ways: Either by being able to hold out a bit by also getting some skills with melee weapons (shoot/stab style), or by getting skills, which make it possible to get range again (WoW Mage as an example). As Vadnais said, as long as we don't know the actual skills, we can only speculate. It could also be that general survavibility skills (more health etc.) are in the third "tree".

[c_vadnais]

Exactly, its all just speculation. In my own opinion, however, I think its far more likely that going shoot/shoot will be desirable in most situations, from what i've gathered the fighting is going to take place on a scale where you want to be good at range and let the melee DPS and tanks focus on their job instead of trying to get into the fray yourself where you'll become less valuable. Again, my own opinion, shoot/shoot is going to be a little more preferred, as for 1v1, maybe the other way around, but range spec may have enough ways to kite someone to death that you may not necessarily NEED to be range/melee to survive in a close fight.

[Nightz]

The problem I see with shadow warriors being purely bow is that it encroaches on the bright wizards territory. That is, if both a bright wizard and a shadow warrior are standing at X distance from some poor tank, blowing him away, what distinguishes them? If they do the same damage, then the wizard is "gimped" because he doesn't posses the upgraded armor and melee abilities of a shadow warrior. If the wizard does more, then the shadow warrior is "gimped" because he is specced for full range dps, but he is being outdone at his own game--a balance issue Warhammer is striving to correct.



actually that is wrong the shadow warrior isnt gimped because he has a high survivability rate thant he bright wizard and better armor correct? so its a trade off less dmg more survivability
brright wizard cloth
shadow warrior leather cloth combo (mianly leather with cloth cloak)

[Kaeldor]

... but range spec may have enough ways to kite someone to death that you may not necessarily NEED to be range/melee to survive in a close fight.

This is exactly as I hope it will work out. "Melee" speccs loose kiting ability, but can hold their own a bit in melee, while bow bow bow bow speccs have more kiting skills to not loose survavibility as such compared to melee speccs.

[ChosenOne]

Agreed,

Explained very well.
But i don't quite understand the healing part.

because either way if the person that is attacking you is on you(melee) then you might still need healing.
But the other point is that if you got range/melee hybrid then you can be doing damage back to them without trying to run away and shoot which will only cause you to lose health but be doing no damage back.

Well it is my belief that in order for a shadow warrior to be able to be worthwhile at all in melee that it cant be just about attack skills but also some melee defensive skills. If that is the case then he can survive longer in a melee fight and that makes him less of a liability for the groups healer. The healer doesnt have to spot his lowering health as quickly because it wont lower as fast. After playing a healer a bit in such cases in other games that is a pretty big deal to a healer. Watching one of your allies health drop from full to dead in a matter of seconds is extremely frustrating. If you dont frustrate the support then you get on their good side and being on their good side is definately a good thing. Yes, I used the word good repetitively on purpose. ;)

[Gawain]

I would argue that more than even playstyle theory, the single most important factor is how WH handles relative DPS and skill accretion tables between the two lines especially with respect to diminishing returns.

For example: (all numbers hypothetical for illustrative purposes)

You get “5 points” to spend from a level up.

A bow/bow person already has “40 points” in bows resulting in a “16dps” and “3 points” in stabby with 4 dps. If putting those new 5 points into bows will now only boost bow dps to “16.2 dps” while putting 5 points in stabby will increase melee DPS to 6 (a 50% boost) and open up access to a new skill/style like “stunning stab” or “hamstring cut” that roots a target, then even for a bow/bow person, putting the points into stabby would be a far more valuable investment both to himself/herself and to his/her group.

We really need to wait and see.

Cheers

[c_vadnais]

We really need to wait and see.

Cheers

Exactly, all this is speculation. I do agree that some points may be better spent in other trees, and i expect it, I dont expect to go 100% ranged to be range spec, that even SOUNDS like a bad idea. However, specializing in ranged attacks can also mean getting points in melee in order to make kiting more successful. If i was unclear originall I apologize, IMO the fact is that SW will be using their bows mainly, so being mostly ranged spec is likely to be disired, some melee abilitys aren't bad, but I can't see them being a vital part of SW gameplay personally

[Gawain]

KK, then my (purely speculative) hunch is that for PvP, the most effective builds is going to be somewhere in the 80/20 to 60/40 bow to melee range. Reasons:

1) The bow should be your primary weapon, any ratio over 50% melee suggests some other class like the Witchhunter may be a better fit, however

2) With no stealth, I think many former archers are going to find ambush/sniper tactics in the field much harder to pull-off than they thought. There is no gauarantee of 1st shot here, a nuker or cc could easily spot you first as you him. If there are interupts, then you will be in a world of hurt unless you have sufficient non-bow based ability to kill the source of interupts quickly (particularily pets that may be set on you).

3) I expect some of the maps (especially at the beginning) and some of the smaller intances to be pretty packed. This suggests to me that relying on kiting could be pretty dicey. Run to gain some distance likely = slap bang into another hostile group. Thus,

4) The ability to defend the line with your group/allies and/or defend your 'sweet spot' is going to be mighty useful. This btw, is in keeping with the tradition of elite archers of old. Yeoman Longbowmen, Samurai archers etc. were all expected to hold the line in hand to hand when required. Routing when an enemy charges is the modus of crossbowmen. :mrgreen:

Cheers

[thestarheart]

I'm with Gawain on this one. I think being able to hold your own in two different styles of combat will greatly improve the survivability of the class, which is something to be greatly considered when you're playing with world RvR!

[Kaeldor]

2) With no stealth, I think many former archers are going to find ambush/sniper tactics in the field much harder to pull-off than they thought. There is no gauarantee of 1st shot here, a nuker or cc could easily spot you first as you him. If there are interupts, then you will be in a world of hurt unless you have sufficient non-bow based ability to kill the source of interupts quickly (particularily pets that may be set on you).

3) I expect some of the maps (especially at the beginning) and some of the smaller intances to be pretty packed. This suggests to me that relying on kiting could be pretty dicey. Run to gain some distance likely = slap bang into another hostile group. Thus,

4) The ability to defend the line with your group/allies and/or defend your 'sweet spot' is going to be mighty useful. This btw, is in keeping with the tradition of elite archers of old. Yeoman Longbowmen, Samurai archers etc. were all expected to hold the line in hand to hand when required. Routing when an enemy charges is the modus of crossbowmen. :mrgreen:

Cheers

If 2) is true, that would be bad design. The class is advertised as being able to do hit and run tactics, and kill the enemy before it is comming close. If you had to fight close to have a chance to beat say a socerer, then probalby a lot of people who'd like to play the shadow warrior won't do that in the end. Again that would be bad class design. Of course giving you the option to make a character who works like this (bow and stab), for people who want to, would be nice.

3) Therefore you have tanks in instances. For solo play, again if they advertise a kiting class and then don't give you the space to kite, it would be bad design. Of course it could be challenging to kite, which would be nice because then it's more fun.

4) Being able to hold you own in hand to hand is nice fo course for people who want to play a kind of well rounded character (and the TT shadow warrior is like that ). For me, I'd probalby won't play a SW if the pure bow specc is not also a good option.

[Vahalld]

When I think about what to spec, I try to envision what kind of group I will be in for both PvE and PvP situations. Naturally, there are so many variables that you end up making lots of assumptions about the nature of the terrain, enemy composition, etc. Many of those will turn out to be incorrect, but in my experience there are a couple things that hold true.

A quick aside: I think we have assumed so far that if you spec Bow, you will have fewer defensive/survivability options than if you spec Stabby, based on prior experience and game design principles. This will go right out the window if Mythic enables strong defensive options for the bow spec, or offloads defensive buffs/skills onto Morale or Tactic abilities.

As background, I played a Hunter in DAoC and a Hunter in WoW for a much shorter period. Pet classes FTW =)

Pure DPS. Speccing for pure damage is a lot of fun. You know you've ruined someone's day when you hit them for a 20%+ loss of their health, or foil their attempt to escape. You also know that they'll come after you immediately if they aren't already dead. That definitely gets the adrenaline pumping.

The problem, of course, is that you put a great deal of strain on your group. I've been guilty of this quite often, and my sincere apologies to all you healers out there! Examples of this "strain" are: you require frequent healing; you need to physically move frequently, and thus are difficult to target from the healer's perspective (or you go out of range); it is more difficult to prove your worth to a group because you fulfill no one, specific role all of the time.

Now, if you are part of a guild with a regular group, you can mitigate this stress and thus become a much more useful group member. You provide the awesome punch needed to kill that extra mob, or turn the tide against that enemy RvR group. Depending on the type and significance of the damage you do, you can even have some role in providing crowd control. But without proper support, these advantages are lost to a pure DPS spec.

Hybrid DPS. Hybrids help to ease the aforementioned strains on your group while still providing a solid punch, ostensibly because they have better survivability. This is self-explanatory, and has been discussed above.

Ultimately, however, I don't think that you can be as effective as possible in the RvR endgame as a hybrid. The breadth of your skills precludes you from fulfilling the role the Ranged DPS class is designed for in the ideal situation: maximum, sustained direct damage.

More to the topic's point, I think I will choose a pure DPS spec, if I do play the Shadow Warrior class. I think effective Ranged DPS players will realize that planning, well before the battle begins, will enable them to be most effective. And, for me, that planning stage is half the fun.

[c_vadnais]

I agree...while having some melee ability would be fun/useful, its important to keep in mind that SW is a ranged DPS class and that "melee survivability" is likely to be limited to frantically hacking away at the last 10% of your targets health instead of getting distance and simply taking another shot. Its my own personal belief that since this game focus' on group combat in nearly all situations, that having a ranged spec will be a little more disirable.

Seeing as SW is a ranged class without a pet i'm taking it that it will play similar to the hunter from LOTR Online. I personally was pleased with how the hunter played there, the melee abilities were only good enough if your target was as good as dead, but you could still get some distance and plug away at the last bit with arrows too.

Seeing that we're a ranged DPS class I doubt they will give us enough "melee survivability" to really be heavily persuaded into taking it, while you can hypothesize that it will be "better" you can only guess and assume at your own preferred style of play, while that may work for some people, I personally think that SW are going to be far better at simply kiting their target to death better than most.

[ChosenOne]

I would counter that they would indeed allow us to sacrifice a bit of the ranged dps capability in exchange for some melee survivability. I would only look for defensive melee skills if there was a tree and if they offer such.

[Kaeldor]

If they do it right, both types will be equally useful (of course more or less depending on the situation) and everyone can play the style they prefer most. Which means bow bow bow bow bow bow for me. :grin:

[c_vadnais]

I would counter that they would indeed allow us to sacrifice a bit of the ranged dps capability in exchange for some melee survivability. I would only look for defensive melee skills if there was a tree and if they offer such.

which (at least IMO) is the problem, SW is supposed to be ranged DPS, it would be like giving melee abilities to a bright wizard. The moment you "sacrifice" some ranged DPS for "melee survivability" you're no longer a ranged DPS class, you're a jack of all trades (and master of none, so to speak) The point of ranged DPS is to nuke them before they get to you and if they do it becomes a fight of skill to get away and finish them off before they finish you, that should be apart of balance. Nuking them from a distance only to close on you and get out melee'd by a ranged DPS class just doesn't sound like something Mythic is intending to do here.

Again, this is my own speculation, but I just dont see melee "survivabilty" meaning anything more than having a good ability to kite them, not try and go toe-to-toe with a melee DPSer/tank and survive any longer than another ranged DPSer like a caster such as a magus or bright wizard. I know i intend to be a glass cannon, even if its not the most popular thing out there, being able to hit a target like a bus and either win or lose is how i've always seen DPS classes shine. I personally haven't seen "survivabilty" do anything in a DPS classes hands other than get them nerfed.

[ChosenOne]

Difference is Shadow Warriors ranged damage is PHYSICAL. That means they are weaker against whom their archetype is supposed to be powerful against. That weakness should be answered with some other kind of strength in my mind.

[The Penguin Hunter]

Difference is Shadow Warriors ranged damage is PHYSICAL. That means they are weaker against whom their archetype is supposed to be powerful against. That weakness should be answered with some other kind of strength in my mind.


And then what about the Engineer, make him a capable melee fighter as well?

[Kaeldor]

Difference is Shadow Warriors ranged damage is PHYSICAL. That means they are weaker against whom their archetype is supposed to be powerful against. That weakness should be answered with some other kind of strength in my mind.

We don't really know that yet. Shadow warriors could get a nice percentage of things like fire and magic arrows. On the other hand, balance could just lie in having more health, being in leather, not cloth etc.

We don't even know, if those melee abilities have anything to do with survavibility. Atm those are just described as finishing moves, which have nothing to do with survavibility as such.

Shadow warriors might even be a bit more powerful against cloth, and less against plate than magic using ranged dps, which wouldn't be a bad thing as such either.

[ChosenOne]

And then what about the Engineer, make him a capable melee fighter as well?

Have you seen the engineer abilities? They actually have a mixture of physical and elemental. They have these grenades that coat the enemy in oil which increases damage taken by fire and such. Then they have explosive grenades which could be more of a fire elemental damage.

But most of all Engineers have more survivability. They have mines to defend their location and they have turrets to do such as well as medium armor due to being closer to combat in order to be fully functional. Grenades have short distance.

[Kaeldor]

Have you seen the engineer abilities? They actually have a mixture of physical and elemental. They have these grenades that coat the enemy in oil which increases damage taken by fire and such. Then they have explosive grenades which could be more of a fire elemental damage.

But most of all Engineers have more survivability. They have mines to defend their location and they have turrets to do such as well as medium armor due to being closer to combat in order to be fully functional. Grenades have short distance.

About the mix of physical and elemental damage: What makes you think the SW doesn't get the same? Something like fire/flame arrows is pretty standart for archer classes. Shadow warrior could also get some kind of magical arrows. Probalby the shadow warrior has medium armor too.

What I don't get is the logic: standing still (melee) = more survavibility.

[ChosenOne]

About the mix of physical and elemental damage: What makes you think the SW doesn't get the same? Something like fire/flame arrows is pretty standart for archer classes. Shadow warrior could also get some kind of magical arrows. Probalby the shadow warrior has medium armor too.

What I don't get is the logic: standing still (melee) = more survavibility.


Because you are thinking in a 1v1 frame of mind and I am not.


Yes its possible they might have some other sorts of attacks, but then why not say something about that in the class description? We have bow attacks and melee attacks but we got nothing about magic using.

[Kaeldor]

Because you are thinking in a 1v1 frame of mind and I am not.


Yes its possible they might have some other sorts of attacks, but then why not say something about that in the class description? We have bow attacks and melee attacks but we got nothing about magic using.

What makes you think I have only 1vs1 in mind??? If you are a focused by more than one melee types as a ranged class, you are pretty much dead anyway. I don't think the melee skills you get as a SW will be that good. I'd be really interested what you meant exactly by the above(not meant ironically).

The magic is meant for arrows, not magic attacks (spells) as such. Like the engineer has elemental attacks, so could the SW. I haven't played DAOC, but don't the ranged bow types have something like "flame arrow" or "magic arrow"?

[c_vadnais]

I'm inclined to agree with Kael, we haven't seen the SW in action yet (which makes this agruement a dead topic, but I dont have anything else to do lol) however, I doubt they'll give the SW less ranged DPS than some other class just for the sake of giving them a little more melee damage, that doesn't sound like a ranged DPS class to me.

And if we really want to say we're not focusing on 1v1 with this discussion then having melee abilities (while useful) wont be necessary, if you're fighting in even a half-decent group you shouldn't have to worry about needing good melee abilities, the tanks, and melee DPS will keep the way to the ranged support blocked or keep them rooted in place nine times out of ten, even if its for the sole purpose of trying to get the kill themselves. Every time ive seen an archer class try to run into fray to melee they've always just gotten in the way or gotten killed.

[craz1e83]

I think it really depends on the situation however i do agree, the only abilties i'd really like is to be able to get away from those who close the distance on me.

this being said i am just trolling, i won't play a shadow warrior because they a. good guys, and b, because they will be grossly overpopulated. i am going with the next best thing, the squig herder so bow users ftw. :-) to me it's more fun to play the underdog

as for the fire bow attack, yes they are in the game

to give an item of the different types of bow attacks in daoc here they go, well the most important

critical shot - biggest damage, med draw time, must be stealthed
poision shot - med damage - does a damage over time, med draw time
point blank shot - heavy damage - very short range, fast draw time
standard - med damage - med draw time
fire shot - heavy damage - elemental damage - long draw time
rapid fire - light damage - extremely fast draw time
power shot - heavy damage - long draw time
long shot - long range, med draw time? (can't remember for sure)
volley - ground targeted shot that can hit enemies within a small area (don't have to see them)

i would expect some similiarities between this and warhammer, infact i ahve alraedy seen the squig herder has a damage over time shot already

[ChosenOne]

I will use my shadow warrior/engineer pairing as my example. This is a two player or multiple player grouping of these two classes.

By working together these two classes are an awesome combination. They are going to draw attention. The shadow warrior(s) will be behind the engineer(s) since they have longer range. When the engineers see trouble coming they set up their mines or single mind if its just one engineer then he retreats to the shadow warrior's position. If its something like a grease mine or something that slows forward progress then the two both tee off with a wind up shot for heavier damage.

Then as the enemy gets closer again this time the shadow warrior steps forward and uses his body and his attacks to stop the progress of the assailant. This allows the engineer to pop off another big shot or a couple shots. If the assailant still isnt dead due to heals or just having alot of life then the shadow warrior drops back towards the engineer after he has set up another mine. Then its time for the engineer to use His body and attacks.

For anyone that knows American Football its kind of like how a defensive lineman is able to go around a offensive lineman but if the quarterback is good enough he simply moves so that the lineman is still in between him and the defensive lineman. Same mechanic at play here. The shadow warrior will probably be hurting bad and the enemy will still be trying to get to him.

This is the type of kiting I perceive in WAR. There are cast times and for bowmen and gunners there is probably aim time. So your best kiting will be done with pairs or more and that is why I will want some melee capability for my shadow warrior.

[c_vadnais]

This is the type of kiting I perceive in WAR. There are cast times and for bowmen and gunners there is probably aim time. So your best kiting will be done with pairs or more and that is why I will want some melee capability for my shadow warrior.

Alright, I was misunderstanding you, I apologize. That's pretty much what I was trying to say. The stated "shoot/stab" combination (to me) only means that you could finish off a target low on health with your melee and if he's not low then you can use these "melee abilities" to better kite them (ex. a melee ability that slows movement speed/roots them so you can get distance and start plugging away at them again).

[Kaeldor]

I will use my shadow warrior/engineer pairing as my example. This is a two player or multiple player grouping of these two classes.

By working together these two classes are an awesome combination. They are going to draw attention. The shadow warrior(s) will be behind the engineer(s) since they have longer range. When the engineers see trouble coming they set up their mines or single mind if its just one engineer then he retreats to the shadow warrior's position. If its something like a grease mine or something that slows forward progress then the two both tee off with a wind up shot for heavier damage.

Then as the enemy gets closer again this time the shadow warrior steps forward and uses his body and his attacks to stop the progress of the assailant. This allows the engineer to pop off another big shot or a couple shots. If the assailant still isnt dead due to heals or just having alot of life then the shadow warrior drops back towards the engineer after he has set up another mine. Then its time for the engineer to use His body and attacks.

For anyone that knows American Football its kind of like how a defensive lineman is able to go around a offensive lineman but if the quarterback is good enough he simply moves so that the lineman is still in between him and the defensive lineman. Same mechanic at play here. The shadow warrior will probably be hurting bad and the enemy will still be trying to get to him.

This is the type of kiting I perceive in WAR. There are cast times and for bowmen and gunners there is probably aim time. So your best kiting will be done with pairs or more and that is why I will want some melee capability for my shadow warrior.

If you want to play like that, than that is the specc to go. You could also go for two classes which both use range to kite the other group, like a shadow warrior and a bright wizard, or choose to play with a melee class if you are bow specced. I don't doubt that investing points in melee will be helping you in some situations, I just doubt (or better said I hope) that it won't offer generally more survavibility than a bow specc.

If aim times prevent effective kiting, then I still would say this is bad game design, because then they shouldn't have classes like the shadow warrior. Of course I don't think kiting should always be working or effective.

[ChosenOne]

If you want to play like that, than that is the specc to go. You could also go for two classes which both use range to kite the other group, like a shadow warrior and a bright wizard, or choose to play with a melee class if you are bow specced. I don't doubt that investing points in melee will be helping you in some situations, I just doubt (or better said I hope) that it won't offer generally more survavibility than a bow specc.

If aim times prevent effective kiting, then I still would say this is bad game design, because then they shouldn't have classes like the shadow warrior. Of course I don't think kiting should always be working or effective.

Kiting is generally considered a solo based method. This game doesnt have the feel so far of a solo based game. Not saying that kiting wont be a viable method I just dont think they are going to cater to Solo kiting. Thus why I have been trying to think of other ways to play a shadow warrior.

[Kaeldor]

Kiting is generally considered a solo based method. This game doesnt have the feel so far of a solo based game. Not saying that kiting wont be a viable method I just dont think they are going to cater to Solo kiting. Thus why I have been trying to think of other ways to play a shadow warrior.

Probalby we mean a bit of a different thing with "kiting" (and my interpetation might be wrong, as English is not my first language). What I mean is just evading to be hit, and I did that on my WoW mage for most of the 3 years I played that game in pvp groups. Now
pvp in WAR might be totally different. I looks pretty similar though from what I have seen in the various vids.

For me, a lot of fun is placing myself as a squishy in a group so, that I am not a burden to my healer, but still can do lots of damage. And in a lot of cases as a ranged damage dealer I had more difficulties with fighting other ranged damage dealers, than melee. Because you usually get some skills to get range again if someone gets to you, and they have to come to your side to get you. Doesn't always work like that of course, but the bigger the group the easier to do usually. But against ranged classes, it's harder to do, and the more skills you have against other ranged classes the better in my experience. Therefor I don't think it will generally give you more survavibility if you specc sword and bow.

But I got your point now! ^.^

[Javelin]

the better the shadow warrior will be in meele the cooler it is :D half bow half meele would be awesome!:D hopefully there will be some good places for ambush in WAR, so you can hide in a bush or behind a tree and the little guy who ends up with an arrow in his head never know what hit him:cool:

[c_vadnais]

the better the shadow warrior will be in meele the cooler it is :D half bow half meele would be awesome!:D hopefully there will be some good places for ambush in WAR, so you can hide in a bush or behind a tree and the little guy who ends up with an arrow in his head never know what hit him:cool:

while i dont necessarily disagree, I always try to keep in mind class balance, SW is ranged DPS for a reason. A ranged DPS that can do good melee DPS would just lead to a balance issue. A ranged DPS shouldn't be able to survive long against a melee class, once a ranged DPS can do good melee it becomes a balance issue. Yeah it would be really cool, but i'd rather have more balance than have my own wants fulfilled lol.

If you wanna do melee DPS play a melee DPS class IMO >.>

[Javelin]

If you wanna do melee DPS play a melee DPS class IMO >.>

well I don't wanna be 100% meele dps,, dreamclass would be 50% meele and 50% range,, and even if you spend all your mastery points in meele with SW you will still be better with bow than meele right? so it won't disturb class balance:) I'm not saying that SW should be as good as a meele dps or a tank in meele, but it should at least be able to do some dmg if it has already fired of some rounds with the bow,,

[c_vadnais]

well I don't wanna be 100% meele dps,, dreamclass would be 50% meele and 50% range,, and even if you spend all your mastery points in meele with SW you will still be better with bow than meele right? so it won't disturb class balance:) I'm not saying that SW should be as good as a meele dps or a tank in meele, but it should at least be able to do some dmg if it has already fired of some rounds with the bow,,

from my own understanding (and own hopes) going far into melee only makes them do marginally more damage, as it was stated in the podcast, Paul got a little overzealous about the shadow warriors melee ability, you're still going to be using your bow (i'd speculate about 90%) most of the time. I dont foresee a shadow warriors melee prowess being anything other than knocking that last 10% off of your targets health to kill him, I wouldn't expect anything better than that personally.

[Delolith]

I think even if you spec totally for bow there won't be such thing as avoid to get hit. Only, in the case you are ignored. If someone wants to get close to you... he will be able to do it even more if he is a melee DPSer (anti-snare,root abilities). You will not manage to keep someone indefinetelly away from you...only in the case he doesn't want to come close to you. If he wants to....he will reach you. I wrote a rather long post about this on another thread if you want to read it. But as ChosenOne says...they won't be catering solo kiting as you imagine it (or avoid to get hit whatever you call it).

Delolith

[Kaeldor]

I think even if you spec totally for bow there won't be such thing as avoid to get hit. Only, in the case you are ignored. If someone wants to get close to you... he will be able to do it even more if he is a melee DPSer (anti-snare,root abilities). You will not manage to keep someone indefinetelly away from you...only in the case he doesn't want to come close to you. If he wants to....he will reach you. I wrote a rather long post about this on another thread if you want to read it. But as ChosenOne says...they won't be catering solo kiting as you imagine it (or avoid to get hit whatever you call it).

Delolith

No one said indefinelly. But it would be really strange if they advertise a bow bow bow class, and don't give it some options to kite. It even says something in the pod along the lines of "be able to kill someone before he can reach you". Of you look at how the SW is described so far, it sounds like a kiting class. The alternative would be, that you do so much damage to melee DPS if you specc pure bow, that you don't have to kite, because they die so fast. Which is less likely in my view. Now, as the melee DPS is the one which is supposed to have it easiest against us, I don't doubt that they'll have methods to reach us. That is not the point. It still doesn't mean that if you specc sword & bow, that that would help you more against a melee dps class. In some situation that seems likely, but not generally.

As long as I don't get any official new info on the SW which says something different, I don't see why the bow style should be generally inferior, or just give generally less survavibility, than the sword & bow style.

[Delolith]

No one said indefinelly. But it would be really strange if they advertise a bow bow bow class, and don't give it some options to kite. It even says something in the pod along the lines of "be able to kill someone before he can reach you". Of you look at how the SW is described so far, it sounds like a kiting class. The alternative would be, that you do so much damage to melee DPS if you specc pure bow, that you don't have to kite, because they die so fast. Which is less likely in my view. Now, as the melee DPS is the one which is supposed to have it easiest against us, I don't doubt that they'll have methods to reach us. That is not the point. It still doesn't mean that if you specc sword & bow, that that would help you more against a melee dps class. In some situation that seems likely, but not generally.

As long as I don't get any official new info on the SW which says something different, I don't see why the bow style should be generally inferior, or just give generally less survavibility, than the sword & bow style.

My point was to make a statement about kiting in general not the survivability of bow/bow/bow compared to bow/bow/stab builds. First, you won't kill someone before he reaches you whatever the podcast says...except if he wants to ignore you. Along these line you might kill someone before he reaches you. But, if you both start you shooting and he running towards you...he will get to you no matter what. If he is the melee DPSer he will reach you before the blink of an eye cause that is what he is supposed to do. Even some tanks (don't know if all of them) have anti-snare breaking abilities (black orc if I remember correctly). So they will reach you.... Now if you want to talk about bow bow bow it really depends on how close you can still shoot with your bow before you need to switch to melee. And another thing is...that you will never kill someone very fast whatever class you are and whatever class you are shooting. It will take you at least 12 seconds to kill someone and if you think that he won't reach you in that period of time I think you are mistaken.

Delolith

[Kaeldor]

My point was to make a statement about kiting in general not the survivability of bow/bow/bow compared to bow/bow/stab builds. First, you won't kill someone before he reaches you whatever the podcast says...except if he wants to ignore you. Along these line you might kill someone before he reaches you. But, if you both start you shooting and he running towards you...he will get to you no matter what. If he is the melee DPSer he will reach you before the blink of an eye cause that is what he is supposed to do. Even some tanks (don't know if all of them) have anti-snare breaking abilities (black orc if I remember correctly). So they will reach you.... Now if you want to talk about bow bow bow it really depends on how close you can still shoot with your bow before you need to switch to melee. And another thing is...that you will never kill someone very fast whatever class you are and whatever class you are shooting. It will take you at least 12 seconds to kill someone and if you think that he won't reach you in that period of time I think you are mistaken.

Delolith

I agree with all of that, I just think they give a bow bow bow specc enough skills to cope with that, at least in a way you are not useless against "all" melee classes. In the same way melee DPS is supposed to get into melee closely, as you note above, a bow specc is supposed to get away. That is what that class is all about. Of course not indefenitly and under all circumstances, but usually.

[ChosenOne]

I would hazard a guess that pure bow spec players will be heavily dependent on those they are with. Giving up melee survival skills in order to do max damage at range. That is what some guilds will want as I feel the shadow warrior will be a major pain in the for his lightly armored enemies such as the ranged support and ranged dps classes. His damage is physical and they dont have much to counter that. They have higher resistances but low armor. I would even hazard a guess that shadow warriors have decent resistances too so its not an even up fight between him and magical ranged dps. So shadow warriors can expect to see melee dps looking for them.

When they come you either have to have some ways to protect yourself or be fully dependent on your allies to keep you alive and save you from such.

[Delolith]

Yes i have to agree with you ChosenOne. Although I think in the approach that this is an RvR game....and the context of team/group contribution...I think an approach of bow/bow/bow to maximise your damage and depend a bit on your team for some help from melee DPSers while you wreck havock among the enemy clothies it will probably be an approach highly sought off from groups. Everyone in this game has to fit his role and I think that is what will make it a great game.

Delolith

[Mercer7]

I would hazard a guess that pure bow spec players will be heavily dependent on those they are with. Giving up melee survival skills in order to do max damage at range. That is what some guilds will want as I feel the shadow warrior will be a major pain in the for his lightly armored enemies such as the ranged support and ranged dps classes. His damage is physical and they dont have much to counter that. They have higher resistances but low armor. I would even hazard a guess that shadow warriors have decent resistances too so its not an even up fight between him and magical ranged dps. So shadow warriors can expect to see melee dps looking for them.

When they come you either have to have some ways to protect yourself or be fully dependent on your allies to keep you alive and save you from such.

Well put Chosen! I've been thinking the same thing. And as I'm most drawn to the "playing with others" aspect of MMOGs, I find that no problem at all...

Ah ...help, I'm being drawn to the elven careers... I don't want to be an elf! Do I?

[c_vadnais]

Well put Chosen! I've been thinking the same thing. And as I'm most drawn to the "playing with others" aspect of MMOGs, I find that no problem at all...

Ah ...help, I'm being drawn to the elven careers... I don't want to be an elf! Do I?

o.o

one of us....

one of us....

(lol)

[ChosenOne]

Well put Chosen! I've been thinking the same thing. And as I'm most drawn to the "playing with others" aspect of MMOGs, I find that no problem at all...

Ah ...help, I'm being drawn to the elven careers... I don't want to be an elf! Do I?

Im tellin ya, its like a black hole. Once it begins to pull and you cross the event horizon there is no going back.

[c_vadnais]

Im tellin ya, its like a black hole. Once it begins to pull and you cross the event horizon there is no going back.

lol QFT...

once you see how they're different from the "traditional" elves they become far more appealing...

[Kaeldor]

I would hazard a guess that pure bow spec players will be heavily dependent on those they are with. Giving up melee survival skills in order to do max damage at range. That is what some guilds will want as I feel the shadow warrior will be a major pain in the for his lightly armored enemies such as the ranged support and ranged dps classes. His damage is physical and they dont have much to counter that. They have higher resistances but low armor. I would even hazard a guess that shadow warriors have decent resistances too so its not an even up fight between him and magical ranged dps. So shadow warriors can expect to see melee dps looking for them.

When they come you either have to have some ways to protect yourself or be fully dependent on your allies to keep you alive and save you from such.

Actually I think 100% the same, wonder what we have been arguing about >.<

[c_vadnais]

<shrugs> until the next newsletter we dont have much to talk/argue about but dead topics, so its no biggie :P

[Dan da Man]

I know im going range all the way mostly because it seems like it would be more effecient for rvr combat.

[ChosenOne]

Lucky for us SW fans we can respec. I plan to have some melee capability as I begin to choose. Later on when I am comfortable with my guild and am pretty much with them or allies the entire time I will switch over to the all bow method and depend upon them more for my survival.