Chicken mechanic in open RvR ruleset.

[Gloovish]

What kind of chicken mechanic do you want in the open RvR ruleset?

I won't play in the open RvR ruleset: Open RvR means a type of server where everyone is PvP flagged all the time. The only exception is the true newbies so that the can learn their controls peacefully. Town will usually be safe too because of guards. If you pick this option you won't play on this kind of server.

Full chickenification: If a higher level character sets foot in a lower tier *poof* chicken.

Conflict chickenification: If a higher level character attempts to attack or is attacked by a lower level player in a lower tier *poof* chicken*(for the high level guy). Chickenification occurs before the player can set off attacks so no one shotting lowbies. With this system high level characters can still PvE in low level zones.

Full chickenification in enemy territory: High level characters are chickenefied when the wander into enemy terretory in lower level tiers. This way high level chars can help defend friendly terretory in lower tiers but not attack enemy terretory.

Conflict Chickenification in enemy teretory: Same as above option but higher level player can PvE in enemy terretory unless caught by PvPing lowbies which turn him into a chicken if conflict is initiated.

No chicken mechanic: No chicken mechanic anywhere ever.

Other mechanic: Please specify.

PIE!: Pick if none of the options represent your opinion.

IMHO the chicken mechanic can make the difference between low level RvR and a gank fest.

[Chrismorris]

Full chickenification: If a higher level character sets foot in a lower tier *poof* chicken.

Tho wouldnt it have been better to make a poll? :)

[Gloovish]

Tho wouldnt it have been better to make a poll? :)
There is a slight delay between setting up the thread an setting up a poll.

[Roargh]

Full chickenification: If a higher level character sets foot in a lower tier *poof* chicken

Poll of the month.

[Chrismorris]

There is a slight delay between setting up the thread an setting up a poll.
Sowwie, didnt think you put one in.

My bad :oops:

[fr0st2k]

I just had this idea in another thread, and I feel like it would work really well.

When a higher lvl character enters low level enemy territory, or perhaps, simply when he sees a low level (gray), He will be unable to attack him.

He can however set his sights upon him, instilling a sense of fear and doubt into the low level enemy, causing the low lvls protection to fade. By targeting the opponent and then clicking on the "Eye" button, you will cast a debuff on the opponent called "Evil Eye." The duration of this debuff is 2 minutes, and once it hits zero, you are instantly flagged for PvP.

This will prevent ganking for low levels, but only in the sense that you will not be constantly killed. As a higher level, you would still be allowed to annoy and bother players, but they will at least be able to finish killing their monster for that quest they've been working on and then start running back to town or another safe area.

[Kevinor]

No chicken mechanic.

Why have an Open RvR Server that isn't in fact anywhere near being open? There will be some sort of protection for newbies and starter areas although we don't know exactly what that means but everyone and everything else should be fair game.

[Gloovish]

No chicken mechanic.

Why have an Open RvR Server that isn't in fact anywhere near being open?

I think the point is to avoid the big fish in a small pond problem. Instead of having low level RvR, you would have high level RvR everywhere and a bunch of frustrated lowbies trying to avoid being ganked while leveling.

There will be some sort of protection for newbies and starter areas although we don't know exactly what that meansIt probably means you won't be able to get into the enemy newb zone.
but everyone and everything else should be fair game."fair game" eh? Interesting choice of words. I am for making the game fair which makes me against ganking lowbies.:D

[Rasek]

The chicken thing should only take effect on the battle fronts. i mean there are areas in the RvR/PvP maps you must defend or atack to progress further/push back enemy, i call those battle-fronts.

So, my concept is:
-a tier4 player is roaming around in a tier2 area, the only situation that he will turn into a chicken is when he goes to the battle-front, be it his side or enemy side. Other than that he could freely kill low lvl players that are not in the battle-front without turning into a chicken. ( higher lvl players shouldnt be allowed to directed turn the tide of a battle in a lower tier area)

***Thats for open RvR.

But thats a catch, we all know there are tons of assholes outthere, so if a tier4 player come to tier2 pve map of his enemy, he can kill those lowbies, BUT:

-Every time you kill a low lvl player in a pve area, you get a debuff that lasts for a fair amount of time, if you stack 5 of that debuff you get turned into a chicken for X minutes. If the lowbie atack you, then thee is no debuff

[Rasek]

Interesting choice of words. I am for making the game fair which makes me against ganking lowbies.:D

Nothing wrong with ganking lowbies once in a while, part of the game. But there are aways assholes that abuse it to the point some players quit the game.

[Pira]

When you're a low lvl character, it's VERY annoying getting killed by a high lvl character... The only thing you want it's lvl up, and a guy comes and kill you, so you can't lvl anymore, or you lose your precious time(if you're a casual player, thats REALLY sucks.)

So the Chicken system is PERFECT!

[Riddly]

I plan to play Open RvR regardless but, I chose other. Possibly because I don't fully understand the chicken thing, but from what I do know, I think the reasoning behind it is good, but not the best solution.

Since I picked other, here is my suggestion:

Instead of turning people into a chicken, a simple fix that if a player is 5-10 levels below you, you shouldn't be able to attack them unless they attack you first. Everyone else is fair game. I played on PVP server on WoW and if I got killed by an enemy near my level while fighting a mob I hunted them down for revenge and got great pleasure in it. If I got killed by a player who's level was so high it wasn't readable, I got pissed because there was nothing I could do about it.

The first is a simple solution, a more challenging solution to implement would be to have higher level players be temporarily reduced to a lower level with only low level abilities while they are in a lower tier zone that way fights are always equal matches.

[Aqe]

No fighting lower tiers.

[MageLite]

Full chickenification. THe problem with conflict chickenifying is that how do you stop higher tier players healing lobies in a fight and giving them an unfair advatage?

[Loekii]

I like the Chicken idea, simply because it is exactly what is going on.

I see it more as a device to make the game more challenging -- less coddling -- then simple grief prevention.

If you cannot successfully PvP in your own tier, then you really should not PvP at all -- rather than trying to make up for it by attacking the 'grey' players. You learn by losing and then learning how to not lose, rather than have someone coddle you and 'pretend' you are a winner.

[Axxar]

Full chickenification. No chickenification means being high level becomes a requirement to PvP even in the low tier RvR zones. This forces players to PvE until high level. And not only that, high level players can grief you while you try to do that.

[Gloovish]

Full chickenification. THe problem with conflict chickenifying is that how do you stop higher tier players healing lobies in a fight and giving them an unfair advatage?
Healing a lowbe in PvP combat would also turn you into a chicken. Anything that would put you on the lowbe's 'agro list' would *poof* chicken.

[phluke]

Other: If you enter a lowbie enemy zone no chicken. If you attempt to attack a lowbie...chicken. If lowbie attacks you first he's fair game.

Edit: Or, how about a 5 to 10 level gap chicken. If a player is 5 to 10 levels bellow your rank and you attack him...poof chicken. Or instead of chicken you just can't attack him?

[Trennet]

What if you bring a lowbie with you and have him first attack enemies, thereby turning them into chickens, while you finish them off?

[Gloovish]

What if you bring a lowbie with you and have him first attack enemies, thereby turning them into chickens, while you finish them off?
You can only be turned into a chicken if you are in a tier that is low level to you. Mythic can also make it so that trying to attack a chicken in a tier that is below your level makes you into a chicken too.

I'm assuming you are talking about conflict chickenification. So lets say you bring a lowbe into tier 3, he won't be turning tier 3 players into chickens. The lowbe will just get smashed. On the other hand, lets say you go with your lowbe friend into tier one and see a tier three player there. If you attack him yourself its just a normal PvP fight since you're both tier three and no one has a level advantage to warrant chickenification. If the lowbe attacks the tier three, the tier three turns into a chicken because he is in a tier too low level for him an is in conflict with a lowbe. Now if you(tier three) try to attack the chicken you also turn into a chicken.

Think of it this way, a higher level player in a lower tier is out of place, the playing field is unbalanced. Once he is chickenefied , things are rebalanced. A chicken should be treated as a level appropriate player for the tier it is in. All rules for it are the same as rules for players in that tier.

[Syr]

If there are silly chickens then I want silly dance emotes :cool:

[Belar]

No chickens!

What if a realm is more populated then the other realm by a large number of players? If you have a chicken rule in place the realm vrs realm system just won't work. The lower tiers of the less populated realm will constantly be getting schooled, giving more points to the more polpulated realm's next tier. So by tier 4 the lower populated realm is far behind on points.

If you don't have a chicken rule things are different. High tiers will help the lower, outnumbered tiers. This enables a lower populated realm to overcome a higher populated realm if it is more organized and helpfull. After all, higher tiers should want to come help kill griefers. If they dont, they will lose that tier and start losing points in the next lvl tier. That is the point I think alot of people are missing. Low tiers, and their efforts, are suppose to have a effect on the higher tiers. So, unlike other MMO's, it will be hard to ignore the suffering of the lower tiers because it will effect YOU directly. The only reason it wouldn't is if Mythic decides that the points that go from tier to tier are negligable. If that is the case, go chickens!

Just for everyones information, I know that instances will have npcs to make the forces even. Can a half npc half player side truly beat a fully player one? This is a very important question.

[Frein]

I'm against the chicken thing for a few reasons:

1) I don't think it will be very relevant at all as higher level people will have no true incentive to invade the lower level zones. Yes, there will be higher level guys terrorizing the weaker players, but it is unlikely to happen on a massive and persisting scale.

2) The chicken is just dumb. Why not turn us into walking trees instead? Or how about red umbrellas? Floating sofas? It just makes no sense whatsoever and I completely hate it.

3) How am I supposed to get any satisfaction from killing higher level invaders if they're all turned into weak chicken? :confused:

4) You can't always win. Unbeatable opponents roaming in my tier is hardly an issue as long as I'm able to run away from them. Sometimes the odds are against you and issues like that should be solved by mobilizing your faction, not by implementing artificial protection mechanics that make no sense. Or perhaps we should have NPCs spawn to assist you whenever the enemy outnumbers you? Fairness at all costs, eh?

[Nerothos]

The whole philosophy of punishing newb gankers is fine by me, I just wish it wasn't in such an immersion breaking fashion.

I picked Conflict Chickification. Although, Conflict Penalization would be preferable, rather than something as silly as what we have now. :p

[Sturmer]

Conflict chickenification.
Simply best... I can still explore whole world without transforming into chicken. But if I try to attack lower Tier player in lower Tier area -> "puff" chicken.

[mikku]

if you want WAR and you want WAR to be everywhere. accept griefing as part of an MMO.

ontopic OTHER:
Id do it this way

Open rvr says if you see an enemy player, you can kill an enemy player except for the lowest of the lows. so unless you attempt to attack a level 1-9 character (in your zone) the attack is just negated and nothing happens and you transform. full chicken if you set foot into a level 1-9 enemy zone

[Gloovish]

if you want WAR and you want WAR to be everywhere. accept griefing as part of an MMO.
Thats not what "WAR is everywhere" means. "WAR is everywhere" means the theme of the game is about a perpetual war. All the quests, crafting, locations, etc. are designed to convey the feeling that there is a war going on. There is no picking flowers, making pink shirts or helping little girls by getting their kitten of a tree because none of those fit with the gritty, dark theme of WAR.

People take "WAR is everywhere" too literally and think it means "I can gank anyone anywhere" while the truth is it's just a comment on the theme of the game and not on actual game mechanics.

As for accepting griefing ... ummmmm...... ehhh..... no! I will not accept griefing! Lets see you refute that.:D

[phluke]

If there are silly chickens then I want silly dance emotes :cool:

/signed /signed

[Chielz0r]

Conflict chickenification:
This seems like the best option to me, you can still explore the lower tiers looking normal, but you get turned into a chicken when you try to interfere.

[Ralzar]

I voted for Full chickenification in enemy territory.

It's the one I think sounds clearly better than all the others.


Full chickenification: So you can never explore any lower level areas of the game without running around as a chicken? No thanks,.

Conflict chickenification: If they can make it work, sure. But it just seems too complicated. Too much coding involved to cover all eventualities.

Conflict Chickenification in enemy teretory: Same as above.

No chicken mechanic: So unless you're max level you're just free exp for the high levels? No thanks.

PIE!: This is my second choice.



Full chickenification in enemy territory does everything I want the mechanic to do. It stops high level assholes from going into lower level PvE areas to grief. At the same time, it lets high levels protect low levels that are being ganked in their PvE area. Making the RvR area a more lucrative area to go for fair PvPing.

[Mo0rbid]

No chicken mechanic: No chicken mechanic anywhere ever.



That's what Open RvR is about, war everywhere




Full chickenification essentially means Core ruleset...

[Tools2Basic]

Just to make clear, i enjoy fair fights and i don't really bother killing lowbies but i don't see a reason why you should take away the griefing. It's a WAR and in a war i would say anything goes even the lame stuff.

So... No chicken mechanic!

[Loekii]

Just to make clear, i enjoy fair fights and i don't really bother killing lowbies but i don't see a reason why you should take away the griefing. It's a WAR and in a war i would say anything goes even the lame stuff.

So... No chicken mechanic!

I would agree if this were not a a game, where the coding basically removes the ability of the lower levels to realistically defend themselves.

Now if combat was advanced enough to remove 'god-like' modes, then I could see a reason to remove it. However, when the computer has already pre-determined the outcome of the fight before it occurs, there needs to be a counter system.

[Gloovish]

Just to make clear, i enjoy fair fights and i don't really bother killing lowbies but i don't see a reason why you should take away the griefing. It's a WAR and in a war i would say anything goes even the lame stuff.


There are no levels irl, so there is no equivalent to that particular griefin lameness irl. One day someone should make a realistic MMO where you can start the fun part right away without leveling. Anyways, this is a game. If I wanted a super realistic war I would join the military instead.

[sb220]

Chicken mechanic in enemy zones is pretty much the only option I see.

Full chickenification makes the world really small and sorta penalizes a T4 player by cutting off content.

Players of all levels should be able to defend their own.

[ManiaCCC]

Just to make clear, i enjoy fair fights and i don't really bother killing lowbies but i don't see a reason why you should take away the griefing. It's a WAR and in a war i would say anything goes even the lame stuff.


When real war become a fun, let me know :)

Really. Its a game. Games should be about fun and griefing = frustrating /no fun.. like a real war :p

[Belar]

This makes no sense. If you want safe areas you can go on a core server. You still get RVR and PVP, and you can be safe like you want. I don't see the problem. Is it that people want to say they play on a open pvp server, even if they want core server rules? If you can't handle the frustration of being griefed then you have another option. Join a core server.

As for the chicken rule, a lvl 19 will still pwn a lvl 10. Without a chicken rule, you can call your lvl 21 guild mate come down and help. Let us say we get the chicken rule. Guess what will happen when some one, who wants to be a "special person" is a level from the next tier. They will grief and grief and grief until they lvl. You wont get rid of griefing and ganking. So if you want safe, none grief/gank enviorment you can have it. Just on a core server.

[Qvark]

Either Full chickenification or Conflict chickenification.

I voted for the second one, that was also how I thought the chicken system was to begin with.

[Ralzar]

This makes no sense. If you want safe areas you can go on a core server. You still get RVR and PVP, and you can be safe like you want. I don't see the problem. Is it that people want to say they play on a open pvp server, even if they want core server rules? If you can't handle the frustration of being griefed then you have another option. Join a core server.

Seem large parts of my guild and our alliance is going Open. As well as a large part of the WAR community in general. Which means I'm going Open as well.


As for the chicken rule, a lvl 19 will still pwn a lvl 10. Without a chicken rule, you can call your lvl 21 guild mate come down and help. Let us say we get the chicken rule. Guess what will happen when some one, who wants to be a "special person" is a level from the next tier. They will grief and grief and grief until they lvl. You wont get rid of griefing and ganking. So if you want safe, none grief/gank enviorment you can have it. Just on a core server.

Not with the option "Full chickenification in enemy territory". Then your lvl21 mate could come and help you.

[Frein]

There are no levels irl, so there is no equivalent to that particular griefin lameness irl.

How about one armed person versus one unarmed person? Or how about five guys versus a lone guy? There are more ways to create an unfair situation than by sending a high level player against a low level one.

How is being "griefed" by five L15s better than being griefed by one L30? I really don't see the problem.

Say it with me: "The chicken system will not guarantee fair fights!"

Let me repeat myself: If there is a high level player harassing you, you should call for assistance. That's what you would do when simply being outnumbered as well, so why not when dealing with a higher level player?

[Finnblood]

Other.

How about simply capping areas?

Eg. in Ostland, your Strength is capped at, say, 30 and players entering the area will get capped plus you can't use abilities higher than those of the tier in the area. No-one gets into fights where they have nil chances, no-one turns into a chicken. Highbies can still help a friend at lower tier. Maybe the highbies could be tagged as 'Champion' or 'Veteran', so that they could still be iconic in their good-looking highbie gear and still had their bragging rights, albeit their abilities are nerfed.

Pretty simple and fair, IMO.

[havedeath]

Make low levels worth no EXP or items to high level players.

If you're attacked then run away or fight back with mass lowbies or a high level friend. I hope and pray people gank me or try to so I can gank them back 10 times over.

Please no retarded chickens on Open RVR, keep that crap on Core.

[Belar]

Seem large parts of my guild and our alliance is going Open. As well as a large part of the WAR community in general. Which means I'm going Open as well.

Not with the option "Full chickenification in enemy territory". Then your lvl21 mate could come and help you.

1.Then you are going to have to deal with the fact that your guild and alliance like the open server idea. You shouldn't try and change it to your liking. Then you're ruining their experience.

2.This is the only option I might be able to live with. Any more then that is making it like a core server. I would still prefer no chicken, but I also can understand that option. Thanks for the feedback!!

[ManiaCCC]

Make low levels worth no EXP or items to high level players.


It doesnt work even in PvE game like WoW... and it wont work in WAR either. Honestly "that crap" (or something similar) is probably the only thing which can made a difference between pointless WoW pvp servers and these WAR Open RvR servers.

[Ralzar]

1.Then you are going to have to deal with the fact that your guild and alliance like the open server idea. You shouldn't try and change it to your liking. Then you're ruining their experience.

Well, see here again the problem is that many of them seem to assume that there WILL be a chicken mechanic in effect in Open servers. While I took what MBJ said litterally and assumed it would be without chicken mechanic unless they change their mind.
Obviously, if there is no chicken mechanic, I get the pleasure of saying "I told you so!", but I prefer the pleasure of playing game I enjoy :p


2.This is the only option I might be able to live with. Any more then that is making it like a core server. I would still prefer no chicken, but I also can understand that option. Thanks for the feedback!!

If the devs go "Full chickenification in enemy territory", that will actually be my perfect server ruleset. I'm really not a fan of running into my enemies without being able to attack them, so the Core rules aren't exactly what I want, but I'll take Core rules over the griefing hell Open without any restrictions will probably be.
So Open with "Full chickenification in enemy territory" is the perfect middleground for me.

[Mo0rbid]

Why do you want the chicken? You can play on core ruleset

[Belar]

Here is the problem I have with Conflict Chicken. Say the dwarves own the RVR on tier 1. They push forward deep into PVE areas. Then, out of know where, 3 tier 4 orcs charge and descimate all. The dwarves have no choice but to retreat, because they can't call in their own support.

I anticipate this to be a very realm friendly game, so in my eyes, Higher tiers will always come help lower tiers. Especially the players who just moved up in tier. IE "Man I can't go anywhere in tier 3 at 31, but I bet I can get to 32-34 if I sit in tier 2 and wait for them to try and raid. That way no one can kill me! My PvP dreams are fufilled!?!!?!!?" This means all I can basically do is run around the RVR area, because the PVE area will always have some next tier people close by that will want easy kills. If it is rediculously hard to fight in PVE areas, I start to think...this feels like a core server..ICK.

[Loekii]

The Chaos Chicken mechanic will most likely apply to ALL PvP encounter - RvR & PvE / Open RvR zones.

So in your example above, the Upper Tier players will be turned into chickens.

Basically, High level players wont be able to attack lower tier players (unless they are running around in an upper tier), so there will not really be an issue of being attacked by higher tier players.

Again, probably the only place you will be able to be attacked by someone that is a tier above you, is if you take your Tier 1 toon to the Tier 2 area -- but then that is the risk you take for doing so.

[Belar]

Here is my problem with full chicken.

What happens if one realm has alot less people then another. The lesser tiers will get owned and spill VP to the other tiers. By tier 4 the VPs coming from tier 3 would be a river, and I can't do anythihng about it? That does not promote realm pride at all. Without this chicken nonesense I can go down and help my outnumbered bretheren. The only chicken that works at all is conflict chicken. Unless the spill of VP from on tier to another is negligable.

[ManiaCCC]

Here is my problem with full chicken.

What happens if one realm has alot less people then another. The lesser tiers will get owned and spill VP to the other tiers. By tier 4 the VPs coming from tier 3 would be a river, and I can't do anythihng about it? That does not promote realm pride at all. Without this chicken nonesense I can go down and help my outnumbered bretheren. The only chicken that works at all is conflict chicken. Unless the spill of VP from on tier to another is negligable.

But here is another problem. One selling point of WAR is "you can do pvp from lvl 1 and even low level cahracter can benefint in overall war effort"... WIthout chicken all tiers will be controled by Tier4 chartacters and thats just stupid.

Anyway, if one side have a lot less poeple then anothter, this server has some serious problem. No-chicken system wont help for sure.

[Belar]

But here is another problem. One selling point of WAR is "you can do pvp from lvl 1 and even low level cahracter can benefint in overall war effort"... WIthout chicken all tiers will be controled by Tier4 chartacters and thats just stupid.

Anyway, if one side have a lot less poeple then anothter, this server has some serious problem. No-chicken system wont help for sure.

Their is so little insentive for a tier 4 to mess around in other tiers. It has already been stated that RVR is where most of the renown is coming from. I am sure RVR is where all the good gear is coming from. You want to change the entire thing so you can be safe from a minority of the population.

[Loekii]

But here is another problem. One selling point of WAR is "you can do pvp from lvl 1 and even low level cahracter can benefint in overall war effort"... WIthout chicken all tiers will be controled by Tier4 chartacters and thats just stupid.

Anyway, if one side have a lot less poeple then anothter, this server has some serious problem. No-chicken system wont help for sure.

I agree. The last thing I want to see in WAR is Upper level players having direct impacts on trivial tiers. If I am getting beaten because of population, I certainly don't want to be 'saved' by some bored Tier 4 with esteem problems -- You are Tier 4, you are supposed to be fighting the Tier 4 enemy, not the little Tier 1 enemies.

Also, the Devs have commented that they are already looking into tools to help with population imbalances (incentives like XP bonuses, NPC changes, etc).

[Frein]

I'm really not a fan of running into my enemies without being able to attack them, so the Core rules aren't exactly what I want, but I'll take Core rules over the griefing hell Open without any restrictions will probably be.

This is just silly paranoia. There won't be a "griefing hell" even with no restrictions. There is this game called WoW where L70s can go kill L20s as much as they want and it's not a real problem. People just don't want to waste time on killing lowbies when it doesn't give them anything concrete. Take away the rewards and you take away 98% of the griefing. Making sacrifices in game play in order to scrape off one more percent seems completely foolish.

I agree. The last thing I want to see in WAR is Upper level players having direct impacts on trivial tiers. If I am getting beaten because of population, I certainly don't want to be 'saved' by some bored Tier 4 with esteem problems -- You are Tier 4, you are supposed to be fighting the Tier 4 enemy, not the little Tier 1 enemies.

I agree. I don't want tier four players to be the deciding factor in lower tier RvR even if it ultimately is secondary in importance to the T4 conflict.

Again, I don't see this being a problem if you just reward T4 RvR significantly over T3 or lower RvR. If there is no incentive to do something, most people won't bother and the few who do are not enough to create a real problem.

And since people in this thread still haven't understood what I've been saying for some time now, here's another repeat: The chicken won't stop griefing. The ones who want to grief will find a way around it anyway. One way, as I mentioned earlier, is to simply gang up on lone players. How will your precious chicken save you there?

[Loekii]

And since people in this thread still haven't understood what I've been saying for some time now, here's another repeat: The chicken won't stop griefing. The ones who want to grief will find a way around it anyway. One way, as I mentioned earlier, is to simply gang up on lone players. How will your precious chicken save you there?

I think people understand that the Chicken is not a cure all, but rather see it as one large step towards the cure. It completely eliminates the griefing cause by being attacked by someone that is above tier. One type of griefing solved.

Getting killed because you are outnumbered? That is part of the game, just like getting killed because you overpulled a flock of PvE mobs. The devs have already discussed the graveyards will be difficult to 'camp' and usually far enough away to prevent easy 'camping'.

I think Mythic is well on the way to addressing many of the issues that are generally accepted as 'griefing'. A lot of the examples of 'still be able to grief' seems to mandate that you ignore the existing solutions, prevention, logistics, or simply how the game works.

[Gloovish]

And since people in this thread still haven't understood what I've been saying for some time now, here's another repeat: The chicken won't stop griefing. The ones who want to grief will find a way around it anyway. One way, as I mentioned earlier, is to simply gang up on lone players. How will your precious chicken save you there?
Simple, if I am attacked by many enemy players of tier 1 for example, I will try to round up as many tier 1 allies as I can to fight back. Sounds like an exciting battle ahead. Waaagh!!!
On the other hand if I'm ganked by a tier 4... eh... call tier 4 allies? So what you end up with is a battle between the big boys and lil' ol' me getting one shot if the enemy bothers to target me. Any lower tier PvP will be marginalized whenever higher tiers show up if there is no chicken mechanic.

[Frein]

Getting killed because you are outnumbered? That is part of the game, just like getting killed because you overpulled a flock of PvE mobs. The devs have already discussed the graveyards will be difficult to 'camp' and usually far enough away to prevent easy 'camping'.

Ok, then how come being attacked by a higher level player is not a part of the game? I honestly fail to see the difference. The fight is unwinnable in both cases. There is no difference at all.


On the other hand if I'm ganked by a tier 4... eh... call tier 4 allies? So what you end up with is a battle between the big boys and lil' ol' me getting one shot if the enemy bothers to target me. Any lower tier PvP will be marginalized whenever higher tiers show up if there is no chicken mechanic.
Or you could, you know, run away. If you don't want to do that, then yes, you should call for assistance from higher level people. Be it five tier twos or two tier threes or whatever you feel is needed. I believe you are highly delusional if you think this will lead to all the T4 people pouring into lowbie zones, though. Not only because the lower tiers don't matter when the enemy tier fours are winning the T4 conflict.

[NoneSuch]

Ok, then how come being attacked by a higher level player is not a part of the game? I honestly fail to see the difference. The fight is unwinnable in both cases. There is no difference at all.


Or you could, you know, run away. If you don't want to do that, then yes, you should call for assistance from higher level people. Be it five tier twos or two tier threes or whatever you feel is needed. I believe you are highly delusional if you think this will lead to all the T4 people pouring into lowbie zones, though. Not only because the lower tiers don't matter when the enemy tier fours are winning the T4 conflict.

When you are Tier 1, you are in a Tier 1 battle zone. It matters to the Tier 1 conflict, It's also very important by the fact you have to be able to level up through PVP as it was advertsided. Now if they can't even take part due to the fact there's tier 4 players camping objectives then what's the point in them even trying?

I mean I think it's fairly easy to understand in a War game, about waging war where objectives make an impact on the game world directly that letting high level players simply camp away at lower level objectives is a bit silly and one of the biggest reasons for the chicken.

Being attacked by a higher level player isn't part of the game - On core servers that is.

We'll have to see what mythic does about it on open ones, And you sir are the delusional one if you don't believe higher tiers won't forcefully attempt to ruin any chance of lower tiers from leveling up or enjoying the game through PVP.

Then again - It's a choice, you will get to pick to play on the server.

[Pseudoman]

Their is so little insentive for a tier 4 to mess around in other tiers. It has already been stated that RVR is where most of the renown is coming from. I am sure RVR is where all the good gear is coming from. You want to change the entire thing so you can be safe from a minority of the population.
I suggest you go over and read the 'Do you like to gank' thread. It will only take 1 or 2 level 40 players to ruin the whole war effort in tiers 1 and 2. The chicken at least forces griefers to do so against players thier own level.

If your really so worried about whats happening in lower tiers then make an alt. There are so many interesting classes I fail to see why anyone wouldnt just do this. Heavy fighting in tier2, jump on your Black Orc for a while. Huge zerg in Tier 1, grab your magus and go pew pew with the masses.

At least anytime you encounter an opponent you know you stand a chance of winning, which has got to be more fun than running out to be 1 shotted by somebody 30 levels higher than you..

[Frein]

When you are Tier 1, you are in a Tier 1 battle zone. It matters to the Tier 1 conflict, It's also very important by the fact you have to be able to level up through PVP as it was advertsided. Now if they can't even take part due to the fact there's tier 4 players camping objectives then what's the point in them even trying?

1) T4 people will not be camping T1 objectives because then they are missing people up in T4 and you end up losing the war. T1 is insignificant in the larger picture. Even if you dominate T1-3, if you fail hardcore at T4, your city is the one that will be sacked.

2) The world is larger than a telephone booth. You won't have a problem leveling up through PVP even if there are T4s running around.

I suggest you go over and read the 'Do you like to gank' thread. It will only take 1 or 2 level 40 players to ruin the whole war effort in tiers 1 and 2. The chicken at least forces griefers to do so against players thier own level.

T4 folks can't enter T1 scenarios and so on. T4 people will not be able to dictate how T1 RvR goes unless their numbers are high enough to start to challenge the T1 population in the zone.

[ManiaCCC]

Ok, then how come being attacked by a higher level player is not a part of the game? I honestly fail to see the difference. The fight is unwinnable in both cases. There is no difference at all.


Or you could, you know, run away. If you don't want to do that, then yes, you should call for assistance from higher level people. Be it five tier twos or two tier threes or whatever you feel is needed. I believe you are highly delusional if you think this will lead to all the T4 people pouring into lowbie zones, though. Not only because the lower tiers don't matter when the enemy tier fours are winning the T4 conflict.

You clearly dont understand point of WAR. Every level should have fun in fair fights in their tier zones. Thats the point.

[NoneSuch]

1) T4 people will not be camping T1 objectives because then they are missing people up in T4 and you end up losing the war. T1 is insignificant in the larger picture. Even if you dominate T1-3, if you fail hardcore at T4, your city is the one that will be sacked.

2) The world is larger than a telephone booth. You won't have a problem leveling up through PVP even if there are T4s running around.


T4 folks can't enter T1 scenarios and so on. T4 people will not be able to dictate how T1 RvR goes unless their numbers are high enough to start to challenge the T1 population in the zone.

That's not the point - Tier 1 is Very important to tier 1 players, to them it's the known world at that point. Tier 4 players aren't all going to be these good , nice people who care for the war effort and couldn't stand losing a few hours of helping the realm and advancing their character.

Sadly enough this sort of server Simply attracts idiots who's main reason to play is to quickly level up then hang about in low level zones griefing continously. Also The world might be large, but there's Objectives - If these objectives are continously camped by higher levels it's not going to be much of a good focus for battle.

DAOC Servers where a proof of this, People would camp outside instances - just trying to gank lower levels continously. One reason the servers didn't do that well, it's no fun if you can hardly play the game due to high levels who don't care about realm pride.

The chicken Imo Is even more required in an Open PVP enviroment, Any really high level player to attack a lower level should be turned into one - untill they leave combat.

I want Open Combat, But I want Open Combat WITH people I can fight against. I like watching out for my enemy, but only when I know I can fight back - Or atleast gather enough buddies to fight back effectivly - High ranking players camping away can really ruin that feeling.

[Pseudoman]

1) T4 people will not be camping T1 objectives because then they are missing people up in T4 and you end up losing the war. T1 is insignificant in the larger picture. Even if you dominate T1-3, if you fail hardcore at T4, your city is the one that will be sacked.
If you think the type of person who gets his jollies by ruining someone elses day cares whats happening on the T4 battlefront I think youve been mislead.
2) The world is larger than a telephone booth. You won't have a problem leveling up through PVP even if there are T4s running around.
T4 folks can't enter T1 scenarios and so on. T4 people will not be able to dictate how T1 RvR goes unless their numbers are high enough to start to challenge the T1 population in the zone.
So what your saying is lower tiered players should hide somewhere until thier scenario comes up so they can PvP on even terms. Open world PvP, capturing of objectives, even public quests will come down to who has the most gankers on their team, how utterly pointless.

[Frein]

You clearly dont understand point of WAR. Every level should have fun in fair fights in their tier zones. Thats the point.
And that is what you will be getting regardless of whether there will be a chicken or not.


DAOC Servers where a proof of this, People would camp outside instances - just trying to gank lower levels continously. One reason the servers didn't do that well, it's no fun if you can hardly play the game due to high levels who don't care about realm pride.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DAoC servers you talk about were FFA. It's completely different. Those servers were not meant to have realm pride. It was like the jungle; the strong rule and the weak die. Not something most people would enjoy for sure, which is why our society doesn't work like that.

If you think the type of person who gets his jollies by ruining someone elses day cares whats happening on the T4 battlefront I think youve been mislead.
Oh surely not, but people like this are very rare. Much rarer than many here seem to think. They will be there and yes, you will meet them many times, but not enough to actually hinder you from properly playing the game. I just don't see it happening. Not in a game that costs money to play as that alone tends to filter 99% of the scum you describe.

[ManiaCCC]

Frein, i really doubt they wont implement chicken system into Open RvR rule. Majority of players (at least on this forum) want some anti-griefing system. And Mythic agree with us. There is a game for you -> WoW.. and in near future AoC. And its no offense. Just this game want be more "user friendly" and Mythic wont beat gameplay because "lore" (Yes, orc would attack dwarf everywhere).

[CrazyGoldShield]

Full in enemy/RVR zones, conflict in friendly. I voted other.

[Frein]

Frein, i really doubt they wont implement chicken system into Open RvR rule. Majority of players (at least on this forum) want some anti-griefing system. And Mythic agree with us. There is a game for you -> WoW.. and in near future AoC. And its no offense. Just this game want be more "user friendly" and Mythic wont beat gameplay because "lore" (Yes, orc would attack dwarf everywhere).
I already played WoW. No thanks.

Thing is, there is no chicken system in WoW and there are no problems whatsoever. Why fix what isn't broken? Especially if said fix hurts other aspects of the game!

I'm sure the chicken system will reduce griefing, but only marginally! It's simply a matter of pros and cons and to me the cons far outweigh the rather abysmal pros. It's like having a police force of 500 in a town of 800 people so you can have one guy watching every shop shelf in case of shop lifting. It's overdoing it and blowing up the budget while you're at it.

Perhaps you just value the grief prevention far higher than I do, or perhaps you feel that it will be a much larger problem than I do. In any case, we clearly have different views.

[ManiaCCC]

It absolutly remove griefing when High level character kill low level players again and again give them no chance. This "pro" is far superior to any cons for many players :)

[Vilehakk]

No chicken mechanic.

I just think it limits gameplay. Open RvR is awesome and i'll be rolling there, but removing limitations on pvp makes the environment tangibly more dangerous and exciting. Additionally, Open RvR servers would be fully differentiated from the Core servers, and there would be a clear choice in play.

[Kevinor]

How exactly do you reason that without the Chicken that all the lower Tiers will somehow be controlled by T4 characters?

What would be the motive for even attempting to "control" a lower Tier Zone? Not XP. Not likely to be money. Not renown points. Not Victory Points. Not likely to be items. So we're left with what? Griefing? For "the fun of it"?

Okay. So lets assume griefers and those that are bored will move to the lower Tiers and start randomly killing any enemies they encounter. Does anyone here know how the ranking and ability system scales? No. So we can't even surmise how many from Tier x it would take on average to take on someone from T4. It's not possible to even construct a hypothetical scenario with any level of accuracy here.

Does anyone know what sort of percentage of the T4 population on any given Server at any given time might be interested in griefing or moving into lower Tiers just for "the fun of it"? I would suggest that this figure is going to be very low; if one were to use some of the past polls on this forum that number would most certainly be less than 10-15%. And that's more like people who might at some point in time dabble in the above; not all at one single time.

All of this is indicating, at least to me; that anyone who uses the "you can't get rid of the Chicken because it will mean chaos in Tx and I won't be able to contribute to the war effort!" or the "you can't get rid of the Chicken because in Game z people camped this place and griefed everyone!" arguments are not considering the whole picture.

This topic should really be put to rest. It's far too emotive. Leave it to Mythic to decide how Open RvR will work based on Beta feedback and when they've released some more details argue 'til the cows come home.

[Mecka]

Thing is, there is no chicken system in WoW and there are no problems whatsoever. Why fix what isn't broken? Especially if said fix hurts other aspects of the game!


This is just silly paranoia. There won't be a "griefing hell" even with no restrictions. There is this game called WoW where L70s can go kill L20s as much as they want and it's not a real problem. People just don't want to waste time on killing lowbies when it doesn't give them anything concrete.

Now, I really don't know what you're talking about. Leveling up on a pvp server, I semi-often encountered these lvl 60/70 (pre/post TBC) dudes who would camp much lower lvl areas (like lvl 30-40) and corpsecamped all lowbies in sight. I remember a particular gnome rogue named Dudley (and the Harry Potter reference is spot on) who would follow me around for hours, killing my lowbie , and camp away. Now, I don't mind being killed over and over by somebody NEAR MY LEVEL! But when a guy 2 shots me for hours on end, that really annoys me.

"Not a real problem"? So you played PvE server or what? Some people just like griefing, and will do it constantly even with no rewards at all (I guess they feel rewarded for destroying other peoples gametime). If there is no mechanic in place to prevent this (Chicken! Oh mighty chicken, how I love thee!) people CAN and WILL grief.

But I'm pretty damned sure that the chicken will be a part of the open-rvr-server - simply because Mythic seems to feel the way I feel about lowbie griefing: it shouldn't be possible! And, because the tier1 people need to be important, and not have tier1 run by ignorant griefing tier4 jerks.

But really: enlighten me on how griefing in WoW was "not a problem". It sure was a problem to me, and a lot of others it seems. You only played as a rogue, perhaps? (I had one too, and it really was easier to avoid the griefing.. but one shouldn't be forced to pick a specific class just to avoid being griefed).

Voted full chicken. That little chicken is just great, it gets the point across in a very funny way. Love it.

[Berrik]

I would rather they just cripple your stats so you can still play in lower tiers,a change of scenery is always nice. It would also make lvling an alt more interesting, having more opponents is always fun.

[Kevinor]

Indeed; without the Chicken there will undoubtedly be a very small number of people who spend their time killing those in lower Tiers.

Personally I never found it a problem in WoW; since that seems to be the metric everyone is using. Yes it sometimes happened; very very rarely is it anything other than a slight inconvenience. At least that was my own experience.

Good thing there'll be Core ruleset Servers if(when, imo) they remove the Chicken from the ORvR ruleset eh?

[Mecka]

Indeed; without the Chicken there will undoubtedly be a very small number of people who spend their time killing those in lower Tiers.

Personally I never found it a problem in WoW; since that seems to be the metric everyone is using. Yes it sometimes happened; very very rarely is it anything other than a slight inconvenience. At least that was my own experience.

Good thing there'll be Core ruleset Servers if they remove the Chicken from the ORvR ruleset eh?

Sure, most of the times it's a slight annoyance. But sometimes, they are very persistant. And I really don't see why you should allow lowbie killing at all, I don't see what it adds to the game.

And no, it's not as simple as "roll core server if you want chicken", because I really like open world pvp/rvr. But only if the opponents are atleast within the same level ranges. A lvl 40 against a lvl 11 is just no fun IMO. And I don't understand what you guys find so funny about it. What's the attraction of killing someone with no chance of fighting back/being killed by someone with no chance of fighting back?

[Kevinor]

Sure, most of the times it's a slight annoyance. But sometimes, they are very persistant. And I really don't see why you should allow lowbie killing at all, I don't see what it adds to the game.

And no, it's not as simple as "roll core server if you want chicken", because I really like open world pvp/rvr. But only if the opponents are atleast within the same level ranges. A lvl 40 against a lvl 11 is just no fun IMO. And I don't understand what you guys find so funny about it. What's the attraction of killing someone with no chance of fighting back/being killed by someone with no chance of fighting back?

I'm not going to go into my own reasons for preferring ORvR without the Chicken; suffice it to say that it's a personal and reasoned preference.

Yes indeedy it is that simple. The only significant difference in terms of Open World RvR between the two rulesets WITH the Chicken is that on the ORvR Server you will be able to attack enemies in their own PvE zones without them having to flag. That's it. At the end of the day you would have to make a choice if they remove the Chicken from ORvR; and be happy that you have a choice in the first place.

[Baradun]

I just had this idea in another thread, and I feel like it would work really well.

When a higher lvl character enters low level enemy territory, or perhaps, simply when he sees a low level (gray), He will be unable to attack him.

He can however set his sights upon him, instilling a sense of fear and doubt into the low level enemy, causing the low lvls protection to fade. By targeting the opponent and then clicking on the "Eye" button, you will cast a debuff on the opponent called "Evil Eye." The duration of this debuff is 2 minutes, and once it hits zero, you are instantly flagged for PvP.

This will prevent ganking for low levels, but only in the sense that you will not be constantly killed. As a higher level, you would still be allowed to annoy and bother players, but they will at least be able to finish killing their monster for that quest they've been working on and then start running back to town or another safe area.

So.. your in the middle of the enormously vast Bumblebog plains, not another soul or town to be seen for miles, heres some great heaping chosen on his <Enraged War-squirrel of speedey squirrel legs> and heres you with your <emergency food ration>

You have the "Evil eye" on you and now have 2 minutes to run at "emergency food ration" speed across the vast Bumblebog plains which, ofcause the heaping mass of chaos meat stuffed in metal armour is running circles arround you the entire two minutes and by the time you get nowhere near a citty guard hes got his "mellon baller" ready to ball you good and solid.

Yep, that'd work. heh

[Frein]

Now, I really don't know what you're talking about. Leveling up on a pvp server, I semi-often encountered these lvl 60/70 (pre/post TBC) dudes who would camp much lower lvl areas (like lvl 30-40) and corpsecamped all lowbies in sight. I remember a particular gnome rogue named Dudley (and the Harry Potter reference is spot on) who would follow me around for hours, killing my lowbie , and camp away. Now, I don't mind being killed over and over by somebody NEAR MY LEVEL! But when a guy 2 shots me for hours on end, that really annoys me.

I'm sorry to hear you had such an experience. I leveled all my characters on PVP servers and never encountered anything like this. Though on another server there was this legendary griefer whose reputation spread outside the server because of how unique he was. He picked certain people to be his victims and then tracked them down with spy alts and then killed them on his L60 rogue, often in a funny way or in weird places.

I can't remember his name... something with an A. He had a website dedicated to him (or perhaps he made it himself, I can't remember). If someone knows who I'm talking about, please refresh my memory. :D

[Vilehakk]

"Not a real problem"? So you played PvE server or what? Some people just like griefing, and will do it constantly even with no rewards at all (I guess they feel rewarded for destroying other peoples gametime). If there is no mechanic in place to prevent this (Chicken! Oh mighty chicken, how I love thee!) people CAN and WILL grief.

The mechanic people would use on a non-chicken server is called Combat Awareness. Using copious amounts of Combat Awareness, you can easily outsmart the Dudleys of the world. People who grief count on you being unaware, or predictable.

The chicken, to me, is the easy way out. I personally want to figure out a way around the danger, and others who enjoy this kind of playstyle know what i'm talking about. That's why they never had a problem, because they defeated Dudley at his own game by using Combat Awareness.

And probably guild chat on a few occasions.

The chicken is great on a Core server, but I question the need to keep an "Open RvR" server limited by the mechanic.

[Kevinor]

The chicken is great on a Core server, but I question the need to keep an "Open RvR" server limited by the mechanic.

Agree fully. Indeed I question the need for an ORvR Server at all if it's going to fully implement the Chicken mechanic.

My personal prediction is that the Chicken will remain on ORvR Servers for T1 only with the rest of the Tiers completely open or some variation thereof.

[Frein]

My personal prediction is that the Chicken will remain on ORvR Servers for T1 only with the rest of the Tiers completely open or some variation thereof.
This would be my preference as well.

[Loekii]

The chicken is great on a Core server, but I question the need to keep an "Open RvR" server limited by the mechanic.

The answer is something that you don't agree with -- they want players to learn how to fight in a competative atmosphere, rather than using crutches like 'level superiority'.

Now, from my understanding, the chicken system is tied into the Zone, rather than the player, so if you desire the added challenge, you can wander the Tiers above you -- where your Tier 2 toon can be attacked by a Tier 4 player in Tier 4.

[Earthfang]

Conflict Chickenification in enemy territory.

The game world feels larger, freer, when people can wander wherever they please, but there should be mechanics in place to prevent pointless frustration in one-sided fights that can seriously dampen someone's play experience. If it's tied to lower tier zones, and doesn't affect you in zones of your own or higher tiers, I see no reason a hardcore pvp'er would be hindered by this rule in any way.

My two cents worth.

[Sonork]

I support the chicken rule. And the reason is simple, this game is based on pvp. You can level through pvp. When i level I'd rather not have to get high levels to help kill other high levels in the lower tier PVP/RVR zones. it would make leveling unfun in the lower level pvp zones and slighly pointless without higher level players there to do the work for you.. which would be very bad.

I also however fully support open RVR servers where players of similar levels in the same teirs can go anywhere to attack people freely.

So basically high level characters killing eachother anywhere = Good
Low level characters killing eachother everywhere = Good
High level characters killing low level characters in lower Teirs = bad

IMO.

[Mecka]

I'm sorry to hear you had such an experience. I leveled all my characters on PVP servers and never encountered anything like this
Yeah it's pretty rare fortunatly, but it was pretty annoying while it lasted. I prefer them not having the option to do so at all, but that is my personal preference.

The mechanic people would use on a non-chicken server is called Combat Awareness. Using copious amounts of Combat Awareness, you can easily outsmart the Dudleys of the world. People who grief count on you being unaware, or predictable.

Yeah I could probably outsmart him with a bit of luck and skill, but I just prefer fighting opponents who I have a chance to kill, or who has a chance to kill me. The whole "high-lvl vs. low-lvl" fight just isn't my kind of gameplay - I prefer the fair fights.

But my opinion is no better than yours (you = anti-chicken-people), and I respect that you prefer a different style of gameplay. Just wanted to voice my own opinion, and ask a bit about your reasons for wanting the chicken gone (and you answered that in previous posts I can see - you love the whole "danger" aspect, which I respect and understand to a certain point). I really had a lot of fun on WoW-pvp server, and yeah, that Dudley incident was only once, and I rarely had big problems with griefers. I just prefer them not having the option at all...

Well, let the discussion continue: whatever the final word on chicken/no chicken is up to Mythic to decide, and I'm pretty sure they'll do their best to find the solution that makes the most people happy.

And it's great to see a thread about this hot topic without people swearing and flaming each other. Keep it up, a nice, mature discussion about the subject could help Mythic decide what the best solution is.

[Vilehakk]

My personal prediction is that the Chicken will remain on ORvR Servers for T1 only with the rest of the Tiers completely open or some variation thereof.

mbj's phone interview comments on the Open RvR servers could be easily interpreted that way:

"The first one we're calling just Open RvR. In that ruleset, other than killing newbies, if you can see an enemy, you can kill an enemy."

I'd be fine with that too.

[Tbaism]

I prefer the chicken mechanic over any other. I have never been a fan of griefing, since everytime I have started an MMORPG, months, years, or even weeks behind the realease, I always found myself being continually ganked, time and time again. The only positive aspect of this, was that it didn't take long before I was able to memorize just about anything related to my lvl. Peope revered me as a god, knowing all and seeing all.

It isn't as though I couldn't play straight through without any real difficulty, but as a responsible working class citizen, that much time wasted simply, doesn't provide sufficent results in a reasonable amount of time.

Now I have just scrolled through the entire forum, and have seen some fairly interesting concepts and opinions, besides my favorite such as chicken. The one I probably found the most interesting, would be the stat debuffs for higher tier players, in order to level the playing field. The only problems I see with that, is there would have to be a certain level cap, and transformation in gear. You couldn't very well keep any benefits from your Tier 4 gear in the Tier 1 zone, because it would probably neglect the entire purpose. Another would be, that there would have to be a final stat cap, or an entirely remodelling. You would only be able to use what was possible up until the highest possible lvl in that tier, or else it wouldn't make a difference what so ever. If a tier 1 can only aquire X number of points, or whatever they are considered, than the tier 4 would have to do the same.

either or, it wouldn't make any real sense to have a stat debuff or whatever you refer to it as. Any other way, you would be transforming your Tier 4, into a tier 1, 2, or 3. Since I highly doubt this mechanic would ever be implemented, you might as well roll 4 characters, and cap them right before they are eligible to move on to the next tier.

Love is like chicken, and chicken taste good.

[Eldaran]

Freakin just fight in your own tier. There will be people almost 10 levels below you for you sociopaths to pick on. *Cluck Cluck Mother****ers* LOL

[KREEPR13]

If ORVR is limited by the chicken thing then it's not truly ORVR. I like ORVR not restictions,

[Kalyptein]

The mechanic people would use on a non-chicken server is called Combat Awareness. Using copious amounts of Combat Awareness, you can easily outsmart the Dudleys of the world. People who grief count on you being unaware, or predictable.

The chicken, to me, is the easy way out. I personally want to figure out a way around the danger, and others who enjoy this kind of playstyle know what i'm talking about. That's why they never had a problem, because they defeated Dudley at his own game by using Combat Awareness.

And probably guild chat on a few occasions.

The chicken is great on a Core server, but I question the need to keep an "Open RvR" server limited by the mechanic.

Answer me this PvP god. How do you avoid someone on an epic mount that will ride in and one shot you instantly? given that at best you have a normal mount and will likely take at least 10 secs to kill a mob.

I would like to see how any combat awareness can let you outrun a mounted person intent on greifing.

I don't understand how this attracts so much whine from the "pro pvp" camp since the mechanic basically restricts hunting of lowbies and lets face it if youre pro at pvp then you shouldn't really engage in crap like this anyway. Do you really enjoy it that much? I guess this is a conflict of opinion between Mythic (war is everywhere = everything contributes to RVR, we want game to be based on skill not gear, fun for as many as possible) and you (war is everywhere = kill all lowbies, fun for me lowbie should have played better -WTF?). I must say I think you (the latter) are a minority and as such Mythic will hopefully not cave in to pressure from the minority.

It's like me playing squash properly against new players, its no challange at all and kinda boring, I tone down my game to give them at least a half decent game instead of winning every point in 2-3 shots.

[impulsebooks]

How about just levelling up in a core ruleset server with the chicken and all the rest, then getting a one time free transfer from Mythic to a server type of your choice? That should make all the anti gankers happy (i am one). Safe to level, then go to WAR in open RvR

[Axxar]

It's paramount that the chicken system is in effect on the Open RvR servers for reasons already stated. If you take out the ability to have influence on or level through RvR because of a few high levels taking over the low tier content, it's not really the same game anymore. They might test it in beta to see exactly how badly it'll be, but I don't think on release that you can expect to see a server that doesn't make certain players show their true form.

Ganking people doing PvE will be a bit harder than other MMOs since there's no stealth, but if you use terrain you can probably position you in a way where you can't be seen while still waiting for the opponent to be low on health or fighting multiple mobs. Or you can simply group up and zerg them.

I think a different question is if the chicken ruleset will be in place outside the RvR area. I think it's a given that it willl be in place inside, but if you get repeatedly ganked and camped in the tier 1 PvE zones so you can't do quests, can high levels come assist you in the PvE areas? And can enemy high levels come assist the gankers?

[Frein]

Answer me this PvP god. How do you avoid someone on an epic mount that will ride in and one shot you instantly? given that at best you have a normal mount and will likely take at least 10 secs to kill a mob.

I would like to see how any combat awareness can let you outrun a mounted person intent on greifing.

He's talking about avoiding constant ganking by the same person. The first strike is hard to avoid if he's faster and you're occupied with something else.


I don't understand how this attracts so much whine from the "pro pvp" camp since the mechanic basically restricts hunting of lowbies and lets face it if youre pro at pvp then you shouldn't really engage in crap like this anyway. Do you really enjoy it that much? I guess this is a conflict of opinion between Mythic (war is everywhere = everything contributes to RVR, we want game to be based on skill not gear, fun for as many as possible) and you (war is everywhere = kill all lowbies, fun for me lowbie should have played better -WTF?). I must say I think you (the latter) are a minority and as such Mythic will hopefully not cave in to pressure from the minority.

It's like me playing squash properly against new players, its no challange at all and kinda boring, I tone down my game to give them at least a half decent game instead of winning every point in 2-3 shots.
You don't get it. It's not that simple, you see. It's a matter of being susceptible to it yourself and of course the feeling of freedom. It's partly the same feelings that drove the Open RvR front from the very beginning; other people asked why we want to grief PVErs and we had trouble explaining that that's not what we're after. We're after the excitement of never being safe as well as the freedom of doing what should logically be possible. Not to mention the chicken is just about as random as it gets as a solution.

[ManiaCCC]

You don't get it. It's not that simple, you see. It's a matter of being susceptible to it yourself and of course the feeling of freedom. It's partly the same feelings that drove the Open RvR front from the very beginning; other people asked why we want to grief PVErs and we had trouble explaining that that's not what we're after. We're after the excitement of never being safe as well as the freedom of doing what should logically be possible. Not to mention the chicken is just about as random as it gets as a solution.

This argument is not good argument.. If YOU want be in pernament danger.. you can be on core ruleset and still feel that way and you are still able doing what you want. Just Make quests only in RvR areas. Easy, isn't it?

[Axxar]

Well, that or do PvE quests with the PvP flag turned on.

[Loekii]

The simple fact is that they are not going to open up griefing (aka Sandbagging/ lv40 v lv 10), just so some people can feel 'more danger'.

Aside from the mountains of examples and personal expriences in other games -- which greatly out number the 'ooo, I was just sandbagged, that was awesome' --, the simple fact that the Devs went through the trouble to create the Chicken, is an indication of their position on Sandbagging -- and it is not 'Its a rewarding and enjoyable experience that adds to the game'.

If you want more danger, you can always run around in the upper tiers -- where the Chicken effect will not happen, because you are in 'their' Tier.

[Kevinor]

This argument is not good argument.. If YOU want be in pernament danger.. you can be on core ruleset and still feel that way and you are still able doing what you want. Just Make quests only in RvR areas. Easy, isn't it?

That is the fundamental problem some of us have with the Chicken. It is effectively a compromise made to satiate those who don't like a particular aspect of MMORPG gaming at the expense of those in the opposite camp. (I understand people make other arguments for the inclusion of the Chicken but it's really not worth going there again.)

Effectively what you're saying there is that WE should accept the compromise offered by Mythic in order to let YOU play the game how YOU want to. Admittedly you are in the majority but it's not that significant a majority that we can be dismissed out of hand.

Many of us have tried to prompt debate and discussion on the subject here previously; and due to the emotive nature of the subject the "discussions" generally ended up into circular opinionated arguements with no constructive conclusions.

Mythic have now potentially alleviated the concerns held by a proportion of the community by releasing information regarding two comepletely different rulesets. Although they haven't confirmed whether or not the Chicken will be in the ORvR ruleset; I hope that it will not. I am not alone in my hope either.

Now we're in a situation where we have two distinct rulesets and yet still those of us who would argue in favour of removing the Chicken are in exactly the same boat we were before this announcement. People dismiss our playstyle preference and then indicate that they not only wish to play how they like on the Core Servers but now that there are Open RvR Servers that they indeed wish to play how they like there too! Who cares about the guys who want a different environment?

[Loekii]

I think the problem is that you assume that your position represents a large number, and thus warrants a change.

Out of 500k subscribers, I don't see a large number wanting to allow 'sandbagging'.

Mythic is a business, and if it were profitable to make a 'Sandbagging' server, they would. However, when all things are considered -- number of people that truely want it, the costs in CS issues to deal with it, etc -- it appears to not be worth it.

It comes down to having a realistic view about what you want, and where the falls in the realm of possiblity. It is not dismissing your desires, but putting them into the right category -- with Skaven as player race, FFA servers, total BOP equipment, etc.

[Kevinor]

I'm not assuming anything; I've admitted we're no doubt in the minority but it is certainly not a significant minority. There are a number of Polls and discussions both recent and not so recent that indicate anywhere from 25-35% of the active community would hold similar preferences.

Before we knew there would be two different rulesets I was advocating the inclusion of a second ruleset post-launch with extended freedom given to the players. Now we know there will be a second ruleset at launch with extended freedom given to the players; I'm expressing my desire for that ruleset to include an altered or removed Chicken mechanic; and it's not simply for the purpose of allowing "sand-bagging" although that is a small part of it.

Also; I find it interesting how many people assume that Mythic would introduce two different Server types with only a very minor difference in terms of the gameplay offered. Especially since you seem to be proposing an argument against my preference based on business and cost reasons.

[ManiaCCC]

Kevinor, look, if there will be enough players who want no chicken system to fill server, i have absolutly nothing to make server for you guys. And i dont think "I am better than you" or anything. But we are just talking about server type which will be in the game for sure. And Core is not absolutly perfect for me so i still didnt make decision when i will play. I just told here my opinion and try explain why i dont like no-chicken system.. and no-chicken system is really unaceptable for me. But thats just me and i know not everyone will agree with me.

[Kalyptein]

Also; I find it interesting how many people assume that Mythic would introduce two different Server types with only a very minor difference in terms of the gameplay offered. Especially since you seem to be proposing an argument against my preference based on business and cost reasons.

What I feel is that many (I included) want something in the middle of the two proposed rulesets i.e. Anywhere goes PvP but with an anti-sandbagging measure - which is kinda what the Open ruleset with Chicken mechanic. Honestly I feel Sandbagging brings nothing to a game (the added immersiveness is really miniscule imo and if anything it adds more immersiveness since "in real life war" soldiers would not break ranks to hunt small numbers of inexperienced troops. I only use this argument agains't people that claim that Chicken makes it less like "real life war") and removing it simply makes for a more competitive interesting game, of course this is only my opinion :)

[Annysia]

What I feel is that many (I included) want something in the middle of the two proposed rulesets i.e. Anywhere goes PvP but with an anti-sandbagging measure - which is kinda what the Open ruleset with Chicken mechanic. Honestly I feel Sandbagging brings nothing to a game (the added immersiveness is really miniscule imo and if anything it adds more immersiveness since "in real life war" soldiers would not break ranks to hunt small numbers of inexperienced troops. I only use this argument agains't people that claim that Chicken makes it less like "real life war") and removing it simply makes for a more competitive interesting game, of course this is only my opinion :)
So what you're saying is, you want open pvp but with a safety net? I feel that if you want this, you should play on a core server. Leave the open pvp to the people who can handle griefing and possibly do it themselves. That's not to say 100% of the people will be griefing, but ruling that out of a "WAR is everywhere" type situation is, well, stupid.

[ManiaCCC]

So what you're saying is, you want open pvp but with a safety net? I feel that if you want this, you should play on a core server. Leave the open pvp to the people who can handle griefing and possibly do it themselves. That's not to say 100% of the people will be griefing, but ruling that out of a "WAR is everywhere" type situation is, well, stupid.

I think too many people do not understand "WAR is everywhere" phrase. But no offense. Just a fact.

[Annysia]

I think too many people do not understand "WAR is everywhere" phrase. But no offense. Just a fact.
No, I understand the play on words. I'm just saying in the Open RvR ruleset, it should infact be anything goes. <3

[Frein]

This argument is not good argument.. If YOU want be in pernament danger.. you can be on core ruleset and still feel that way and you are still able doing what you want. Just Make quests only in RvR areas. Easy, isn't it?
There are no quests in the RvR areas. The RvR areas currently consist of capture and hold objectives and nothing else. They did have quests there in the beginning, but they didn't work out as planned and were then removed.

I just told here my opinion and try explain why i dont like no-chicken system.. and no-chicken system is really unaceptable for me. But thats just me and i know not everyone will agree with me.
Ok, I understand you'd like a chicken, but how come it's "unacceptable" to not have it when no game ever has had a system like it? The majority of WoW players play on PvP servers and they don't have any chickens there. Nobody thinks the current situation over there is "unacceptable". Heck, people don't even give the rules a second thought, yet in the WAR community it's such a big deal. Weird.

If you're one of those guys who would be playing on PvE servers if they were WoW players, I believe you should be on a core rules server.

Also, I no longer completely understand why people want the chicken at all. At first I thought it was because people dislike sandbagging, but then when I asked if there should be an anti-zerging rule as well, people said that's different, so it can't be just sandbagging because in a vacuum 5vs1 is exactly like L50vsL10; both are unwinnable combat situations.

[Loekii]

There are no quests in the RvR areas. The RvR areas currently consist of capture and hold objectives and nothing else. They did have quests there in the beginning, but they didn't work out as planned and were then removed.

Link?

Seems this would counter most of the Public Quest information that does have credible links.

[Frein]

Link?

Seems this would counter most of the Public Quest information that does have credible links.
I can't remember what the clip was called to save my life, but it was from a press event where members of the press got to design a public quest. It's pretty recent.

Certain NDA leaks, which I won't link to here nor in PMs (just so you know) confirm this as well.

[Auricthunder]

Copy pasted from another thread:


And like i said earlier, if those 40s are attacking my 20s in their RvR zones...what do you think is going on the main RvR front??? Also, what is there to gain? You've done the T2 RvR and have all the stuff....sure your kicking ...but i'm kicking in T4 zones and getting T4 stuff...

Sounds like natural balance to me.

You don't understand. The whole point of tiered zones is so lower levels have a place to play. If you take away the chicken, the entire game becomes t4 content. The lower tiers are essentially pointless; they're cockroaches trying not to die until they get to t4.

An extreme example: why not make all the mobs level 40, even in the beginner zones. If they don't like it, they should group up or get a level 40 to help, right?

With the chicken, it's not so much a matter of I don't want to be ganked, personally. It's a matter of the entire leveling process being a waste of time.

And finally, KNOW what server you are going into. Know the rule set. If you join a server that says cheating is allowed, then dont complain when cheating is allowed. (yes, an extreme example, but a valid one)...

And no, it's not a valid example because we're arguing about what the rule set should be. Even if there's a server where the lower levels are worthless, doesn't mean there should be. Even if there's a server where cheating is allowed, doesn't mean there should be.

[Auricthunder]

I would also like to add more to my point that the lower tiers would be dominated by t4 without the chicken. You might think t4's would mostly ignore the low level content. I mean, they did in WoW, why would it be different? It's different because the lower levels contribute to the higher levels. There will be groups of 40s trying to make sure their realm has the VPs from the lower levels. Some of you are fond of the phrase "War is everywhere." Without the chicken, it'd be more like "War is everywhere, only 40s need apply."

Also, if your argument is a playstyle one, you want the feeling of danger, you are still able to be attacked in your zone by other players of your tier or lower. To think you're safe, even with the chicken, would be a miscalculation.

[Auricthunder]

I can't remember what the clip was called to save my life, but it was from a press event where members of the press got to design a public quest. It's pretty recent.

Certain NDA leaks, which I won't link to here nor in PMs (just so you know) confirm this as well.

Is your info more recent than the July Grab Bag?
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/community/grabBag/grabBag_july2007.php

[Pseudoman]

Removing the chicken means removing meaningful RvR for the lower tiers. One level 40 player will determine the outcome of lower tier battles, ie make them meaningless.

Im just so amazed that people would be willing to sacrifice a fun way to level (fun because you can PvP, RvR in a competitive enviroment), just to gain the ability to gank lowbies. What you propose is a game, the same as everything else on the market. A game where you grind as fast as you can to level 40 so you can have fun...... dull.

Also remember that these boards reflect a more hardcore view than you would be likely to find amongst the average MMO player. There will be many less pro ganking come release than are represented here.

[Annysia]

Removing the chicken means removing meaningful RvR for the lower tiers. One level 40 player will determine the outcome of lower tier battles, ie make them meaningless.

Im just so amazed that people would be willing to sacrifice a fun way to level (fun because you can PvP, RvR in a competitive enviroment), just to gain the ability to gank lowbies. What you propose is a game, the same as everything else on the market. A game where you grind as fast as you can to level 40 so you can have fun...... dull.

Also remember that these boards reflect a more hardcore view than you would be likely to find amongst the average MMO player. There will be many less pro ganking come release than are represented here.

Which is exactly why the chicken thing is stupid. If less people are likely to gank than what seems right now, why bother placing a mechanic in there to protect people? Go to a core server and carebear it up. Leave the open servers to the ones who don't really mind it.

[Axxar]

Meaningful RvR is stupid? I guess if you plan on doing only PvE until 40 it doesn't affect you specifically as severely, but it affects everyone else.

[Malal]

No chicken. Only because if there going to go ORvR then they might as well go the whole hog. I cant see it happening my self though. Will be fun though to see if the do go that way :evil:

[Mo0rbid]

I recieved an infraction for that? well I gotta say that must've been the least anyone has ever done to get a warning on a public forum

[Axxar]

You shouldn't be so careless.

[Tbaism]

There has always been the comment whether or not the chicken mechanic would work, based on the ideal, that even a single 40 can turned the tide of any battle in the lower teirs: thus, making all lower teirs meaningless.

Well, I was curious as to what soemone would think of this idea. If anyone has played Guilds of war(whatever it's name is), I am sure they have come across that lvl cap for each expansion, or that is what I saw. If lvling in each tier, were to take the same amount of time, as though they were lvling to 40, wouldn't that make the tier specifics that more fulfilling? You would play those tiers as though they were the long journey, slowly but efficiently, rising to that god like state of 40 and tier 4. This of it soemwhat like Diablo 2, but a far more lengthy experience and influencial.

I honestly cannot predict the final results for this game, so it would be fairly difficult for me to actually respond as though it were simply black and white. People will move to the most fulfilling servers no matter what happens, chicken or no, and sooner or later Mythic will have to cooperate accordingly. If the open servers effect any other because of the missing chicken mechanic, than something will happen. If it is just that single server having problems, oh well, the players are at fault and have to live with it. If they odn't want to move, oh well, too bad, everyone else is having a good time, and they should try to follow suite. If it is just a horrible and meaningless experience fore eveyone, that there would probably be a complete revamp wouldn't there? Why have cumbersome and pointless gameplay, if noone if even going to participate in it?

I say that the playing each tier should be far more meanigful and fulfilling, than the objective of reaching 40 and tier 4. It would demolish the lack of chicken mechanic in my opinion, if noone did anything about it. The time frame for reaching the final lvl for each tier was an example and just that, even if it were just a bad one.

[Frein]

Is your info more recent than the July Grab Bag?
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/community/grabBag/grabBag_july2007.php
A clip as in a video clip, so no, not a grab bag.

Removing the chicken means removing meaningful RvR for the lower tiers. One level 40 player will determine the outcome of lower tier battles, ie make them meaningless.

And here you go assuming things that most likely are all wrong for a variety of reasons:

1) Winning an individual battle of any scale means jack in terms of VP for your faction. You can't just kind of wipe out all enemies in T2 and *poof* win the tier.
2) Most points come from scenarios and T4s can't enter scenarios in lower tiers.
3) Lower tiers don't mean anything if your T4 conflict is going poorly. I'll eat a horse if manipulating lower tier scores becomes a viable strategy at winning the T4 conflict.

Both sides of the argument are throwing around assumptions about things they couldn't possibly understand without playing the game. Just like how earlier the forums were full of these "massive scale PvP battle" people who obviously thought things like block formations and large army battles would be normal parts of the game without realizing that focusing on things like that would be nothing but amazingly stupid.

[Loekii]

However the people that do fully understand the game -- ie Mythic -- has decided to implement the chicken system to prevent Sandbagging.

While you might feel one way about it, it seems obvious that the information suggests that the majority of customers are anti-sandbagging.

Heck, this fan-forum -- which tends to be more 'hardcore' than the average customer -- is anti-sandbagging, which suggests that the much more concervative/less hardcore customer base at large is even more against Sandbagging.

[Auricthunder]

A clip as in a video clip, so no, not a grab bag.

I don't understand what you mean. The clip is not more recent than he July grab bag? I'm asking whether the video clip was taken before or after July.


And here you go assuming things that most likely are all wrong for a variety of reasons:

1) Winning an individual battle of any scale means jack in terms of VP for your faction. You can't just kind of wipe out all enemies in T2 and *poof* win the tier.

Assuming that higher levels get mounts to move quickly from place to place, the lower tiers would go something like this:
(Destruction has more t4 players in the lowbie zone, so they've already taken all the towers)
*Destruction has lost control of tower A*
(t4 Destruction players mount up and kill the Order lowbies trying to retake the tower)
*Destruction has taken control of tower A*
*Destruction has lost control of tower B*
(repeat, et al)

Because t4 players are stronger and move faster, they contribute disproportionately more to the realm conflict than the players of that appropriate tier. This means that players of that tier are pretty much stuck PvEing to level, because they can't get anything done in RvR. Is that the kind of game you want?

2) Most points come from scenarios and T4s can't enter scenarios in lower tiers.

t4 players can, however, camp the entrances to the scenarios, so that the VP's gained by scenarios is kept low enough that holding the towers becomes the deciding factor.

3) Lower tiers don't mean anything if your T4 conflict is going poorly. I'll eat a horse if manipulating lower tier scores becomes a viable strategy at winning the T4 conflict.

Controlling the lower tiers alone is not a viable strategy to winning t4. It does help, however. If they are given the option to (ie, no chicken), there will be people trying to get the edge on their opponents by manipulating the lower tiers.

Both sides of the argument are throwing around assumptions about things they couldn't possibly understand without playing the game. Just like how earlier the forums were full of these "massive scale PvP battle" people who obviously thought things like block formations and large army battles would be normal parts of the game without realizing that focusing on things like that would be nothing but amazingly stupid.

However, now we understand a lot more about the game. Using what we know and making assumptions from that information are logical arguments we can make to discuss the future production of WAR. If you think my argument makes bad assumptions, argue against my assumptions and show how, without my assumptions, my argument is baseless.

[Frein]

However the people that do fully understand the game -- ie Mythic -- has decided to implement the chicken system to prevent Sandbagging.

Mythic also implemented public quests in RvR scenarios. Mythic also tried to pigeonhole everyone into PVE servers. Mythic also did a bunch of other dumb things I'm not allowed to talk about that may or may not have to do with the game simply being unfinished at the time of the previous beta session.


While you might feel one way about it, it seems obvious that the information suggests that the majority of customers are anti-sandbagging.

Surely, though it seems clear that most of the pro-chicken lobbyists base their arguments on pure assumptions and others on simply flawed reasoning (such as trying to justify outnumbering while at the same time slinging mud at sandbagging).

BTW, from where does the word "to sandbag" come anyway? It makes no sense to me.


Heck, this fan-forum -- which tends to be more 'hardcore' than the average customer -- is anti-sandbagging, which suggests that the much more concervative/less hardcore customer base at large is even more against Sandbagging.
That's not necessarily correct. WH is a TT/RP franchise as well and I'd imagine we get a lot of carebearish influence from that.

WAR is also a Mythic game and that means there are bound to be many old DAoC players here and DAoC was a carebear game despite its RvR setting.

If Mythic was a new studio with no previous MMOs and WH was a new IP with no previous fanbase, I'd probably agree, though.

I don't understand what you mean. The clip is not more recent than he July grab bag? I'm asking whether the video clip was taken before or after July.
Yes, sorry. I somehow read "Recent as in the July Grab Gab". My mistake, but I'm pretty sure it's more recent than that, though I've long since lost track of which event happened when as I don't really follow gamer events or WAR events for that matter.

[Kevinor]

Since you want to play the assumption and theorycraft game; how about these apples.

We know VP spillover is minimal from Tier to Tier. If we assume 10% of VPs gained spillover into the next Tier then here's how it might look.

10% of T1 VPs --> T2
10% of T2 VPs(1% T1 VPs) --> T3
10% of T3 VPs(.1% of T1, 1% of T2) --> T4

This assumes that all Tiers have identical rewards for Scenarios, World Objectives etc.

See, using my assumptions I've just shown you how it would be ridiculous for T4 players to RvR in lower Tiers. They would have to win ten times the number of Scenarios, hold ten times the number of World Objectives etc. than if they remained in T4 in order to potentially earn the same amount of VPs.

Additionally they would presumably be earning much less RP, and indeed not gaining any useful loot for their troubles.

Now my example is not particularly realistic because it's all based on assumptions and theorycraft but it is no less valid than your own. Do you fancy continuing down this road? No? Okay.

[Pseudoman]

And here you go assuming things that most likely are all wrong for a variety of reasons:
1) Winning an individual battle of any scale means jack in terms of VP for your faction. You can't just kind of wipe out all enemies in T2 and *poof* win the tier.
Winning any battle will be next to impossible if you dont have level 40s
2) Most points come from scenarios and T4s can't enter scenarios in lower tiers.
Most VPs come from scenarios. Zone control will determine what instances are available (As well as awarding VP, though I agree less than instances). Basically what your saying is if lower tiers want competitive PvP they will be forced to wait in a queue to get it. Trying to capture that open world objective will be a waste of time, or rather more content for tier 4 players to enjoy.
3) Lower tiers don't mean anything if your T4 conflict is going poorly. I'll eat a horse if manipulating lower tier scores becomes a viable strategy at winning the T4 conflict.
While I understand your likely not the griefing type, there are many out there (and it will only take 1 person whos level 40) who find nothing more enjoyable than stuffing up someone elses day (it is the internet after all). Also losing a tier may mean more than VP spillover, cant really say at this point.

The one thing that really attracted me to this game is the way you can PvP, and more importantly RvR in the open world all the way to level 40. Other games you basically have to hide somewhere until your strong enough to compete, or grind scenarios over and over till your eyes bleed. Im tired of the same old design where fun only begins at 40 or 50 or whatever. Let the lowbies fight and win their own battles, surely theres enough content in the upper tiers to keep everyone else occupied.

[Auricthunder]

Mythic also implemented public quests in RvR scenarios. Mythic also tried to pigeonhole everyone into PVE servers. Mythic also did a bunch of other dumb things I'm not allowed to talk about that may or may not have to do with the game simply being unfinished at the time of the previous beta session.

*sigh*, core servers are not PvE servers. Don't flame people for flaming ganking if you're flaming the core servers.

Surely, though it seems clear that most of the pro-chicken lobbyists base their arguments on pure assumptions and others on simply flawed reasoning (such as trying to justify outnumbering while at the same time slinging mud at sandbagging).Anti-chicken lobbyists base their argument about wanting to feel *in-danger* while leveling up (which would be present even with the chicken, though they ignore that) or a feeling of freedom (the freedom to ruin other people's game experience).

BTW, from where does the word "to sandbag" come anyway? It makes no sense to me.I haven't heard the term much either, so correct me if I'm wrong, but "sandbagging," to me, means blocking off lower levels from leveling by killing them so much, they don't have the chance to gain experience and level up so that they can challenge the "sandbaggers."

I think it comes from the use of sandbags during floods to build walls to block off the rising floodwater.

[Auricthunder]

Since you want to play the assumption and theorycraft game; how about these apples.

We know VP spillover is minimal from Tier to Tier. If we assume 10% of VPs gained spillover into the next Tier then here's how it might look.

10% of T1 VPs --> T2
10% of T2 VPs(1% T1 VPs) --> T3
10% of T3 VPs(.1% of T1, 1% of T2) --> T4

This assumes that all Tiers have identical rewards for Scenarios, World Objectives etc.

See, using my assumptions I've just shown you how it would be ridiculous for T4 players to RvR in lower Tiers. They would have to win ten times the number of Scenarios, hold ten times the number of World Objectives etc. than if they remained in T4 in order to potentially earn the same amount of VPs.

Additionally they would presumably be earning much less RP, and indeed not gaining any useful loot for their troubles.

Now my example is not particularly realistic because it's all based on assumptions and theorycraft but it is no less valid than your own. Do you fancy continuing down this road? No? Okay.


Actually, I think I'll take a whack at it, if it's ok with you. It is? Why, thank you.

So, assuming that VPs from lower tiers add into the equation (instead of being a multiplier), for level 40s to ignore the lower tiers, they would have to beat the other tier by a margin of 11.1% in the worst case, meaning their score would have to be 55.55% against 44.45%. If a player was purely number crunching, it wouldn't make much sense to play in tier 1 or 2, but ignoring t3 would be a large number of VPs (approximately 10%, assuming the number of VPs gained in each zone is approximately the same) ignored.

By spending a limited amount of time in the lower tiers, a level 40 can give their realm an advantage in t4. It may be a small advantage, but it will be an advantage, nonetheless.

Assuming that t4 players will have a plural majority a few months down the road, for them to send a player or two to the lower tiers would have a significant impact on the VPs gained in that tier, while not detracting very much from the VPs gained in t4.

[Axxar]

PvE is simply a gameplay style that's available on all servers. Core servers is not PvE servers as the main focus on them is still PvP. The difference is whether or not you can bring PvP into the PvE zones. In addition the ganking that the open PvP servers bring doesn't affect the overall RvR game as there's no RvR-wise reason to do the ganking. You simply do it to kill people doing PvE. I think it's important that we refrain from calling servers "PvE servers" as it simply doesn't make any sense in a game centered around PvP, and only serves to confuse people.

For the Open PvP servers we're essentially speaking of two forms of PvP:

- Chicken mechanic in: PvP everywhere (almost). You can do PvP that doesn't accomplish anything RvR-wise if you feel like it in addition to the meaningful PvP available on normal servers. Focus on player skills to decide the outcome of PvP confrontations - if you're better, you win.

- Chicken mechanic removed: PvP everywhere (almost). You can do PvP that doesn't accomplish anything RvR-wise if you feel like it in addition to the meaningful PvP available on normal servers. Focus on character level to decide the outcome of PvP confrontations - if you've played more on your character, you win (save for tier 4 zones, which is the same as on normal).

[Frein]

*sigh*, core servers are not PvE servers. Don't flame people for flaming ganking if you're flaming the core servers.

They're PvE servers. WoW PvE servers have PvP but that doesn't make them any less PvE or carebear. Just like WoW PvE servers, WAR core ruleset servers have PvP restricted to certain areas (BGs, arenas and duels in WoW).


A few things we need to consider before speculating about the impact of having or not having the chicken system:

1) How large is the world? Can a small number of T4s take over a T2 area or do they need to mobilize half of the T4 population to truly take over?

2) How do the tiers relate to to each other in terms of strength? How many T2s do you need to kill a T4?

3) How big is "skill" in the equation? Does a T3 have a realistic chance to beat a T4 by outplaying his/her opponent?

4) How many potential griefers are there and how much time are they expected to spend on killing weaker characters?

All of these are points that need to be considered before you can really tell whether lower tiers really need protection from higher tiers or not. Without first-hand experience we can only speculate and go by what we'd expect.

[Axxar]

An Open RvR server with no chicken would probably be the closest thing we would see to a PvE server. PvE the primary and only reliable way to level as RvR zones are inaccessible due to high levels, but once you reach the end-game you can join the PvP. On servers that catch chickens a lot of people will be PvPing either as the primary form of leveling or in addition to PvE leveling.

[Auricthunder]

They're PvE servers. WoW PvE servers have PvP but that doesn't make them any less PvE or carebear. Just like WoW PvE servers, WAR core ruleset servers have PvP restricted to certain areas (BGs, arenas and duels in WoW).

That assumes that the PvE is fulfilling enough to be able to neglect the RvR. It's worth remembering that the game we've all been following up until the announcement of ORvR servers is the core server. The focus of the core servers is still the RvR component, which is why comparisons to WoW's PvE/PvP servers are far-fetched.


1) How large is the world? Can a small number of T4s take over a T2 area or do they need to mobilize half of the T4 population to truly take over?

We don't have a lot of info on this. However, with mini-maps and specifically designed RvR focal points (objectives, scenario entrances, etc.), I don't think t4 players will have much trouble concentrating their efforts.

2) How do the tiers relate to to each other in terms of strength? How many T2s do you need to kill a T4?

There was a quote on this in a grab bag. I'll look for it after posting, but it says that a group of t1 players would be able to hurt a t4 player. It didn't sound promising, but you are right, we don't have enough information from the beta to talk about this with certainty.

3) How big is "skill" in the equation? Can a T3 have a realistic chance at beating a T4 by outplaying his/her opponent?

This is tied in to number 2. If the power difference is great, more skill would be required. Think of it as a curved graph, where at a certain power disparity, it becomes reasonably impossible for a full health t3 to take a full health t4.

4) How many potential griefers are there and how much time are they expected to spend on killing weaker characters?

Hard to tell. According to the How important is ganking to your WAR experience thread, 50% of the people who play WAR plan to gank at some point, if given the option. The thread doesn't define it well, though, so that statistic is rather meaningless, especially when you consider that WHA isn't particularly representative of the overall gamer population.

All of these are points that need to be considered before you can really tell whether lower tiers really need protection from higher tiers or not. Without first-hand experience we can only speculate and go by what we'd expect.

[Loekii]

I believe Mythic has already considered those things, and came up with:

The Chaos Chicken.
Unlike us, they actually know the game design, how things are to be balanced, how tiers connect and relate to each other, and how the entire game is actually going to work -- from both a conceptual to a technical standpoint.

If they had wanted to allow sandbagging, they would have designed it as such.

I think it is funny that some seem to miss the symbolism in their anti-sandbagging mechanic.

Rather than simply not allowing you in the lower tier, or not allowing you to target a lower tier player, they are turning you into a CHICKEN.

Chicken symbolizes Cowardice.

They basically view sandbagging as a form of Cowardice, and not something they want in their game.

[Axxar]

The thing is, you don't need a lot of tier 4 players to wish to grief. You only need 1. And a server specifically designed to be a griefer's paradise is going to have a lot of them. I think it's reasonable to expect a constant presence of tier 4s in the low tiers. There were always gankers in the populated WoW zones despite the fact there was no gain for them. The tier 1 PvP zones for instance will be much smaller than the aforementioned WoW zones as well as there will be rewards for your Realm if you control it with your tier 4 character. I don't think there can be much question to what can be expected to happen - while not all players on such a server are gankers/griefers, you can be sure that every player who is a ganker/griefer will be on that server.

[Auricthunder]

There was a quote on this in a grab bag. I'll look for it after posting, but it says that a group of t1 players would be able to hurt a t4 player. It didn't sound promising, but you are right, we don't have enough information from the beta to talk about this with certainty.


It was the December 06 grab bag, so it's quite out of date.


It's the last question, if you want to look at it.
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/community/grabBag/grabBag_december.php

[Kevinor]

Sensationalism and fallacious reasoning are alive and well within WHA. I normally read the tabloid newspapers to see the kind of commentary that's being thrown about some of these threads.

Just wanted to close with my prediction that we will see ORvR Servers with a heavily modified or indeed removed Chicken. We shall see. Good day to you all!

[Axxar]

I sure would like to see the reasoning, if any, for that belief.

[Loekii]

Insulting other people's posts and then 'taking your football and going home' is not very constructive.

The burden of proof is on you. You labeled other people's posts and opinions as 'Sensationalism and Fallious reasoning', yet you fail to provide any credible evidence to support your accusation -- but rather you declare you are leaving instead of standing by your comment.

In my opinion, that suggests that you lack credibility to disprove the opposing viewpoints, and are simply being rude.

[Auricthunder]

Sensationalism and fallacious reasoning are alive and well within WHA. I normally read the tabloid newspapers to see the kind of commentary that's being thrown about some of these threads.

Just wanted to close with my prediction that we will see ORvR Servers with a heavily modified or indeed removed Chicken. We shall see. Good day to you all!

Because your reasoning was 100% objective, right. We disagree over whether or not t4s will want to go down to lower tiers. Just because I believe that they will does not mean that my arguments are wrong or baseless.

Tier 3 adds a signficant amount of VPs to tier 4. Tiers 1 and 2 don't add anywhere near as much, but the pickings are easier, so to speak. Anyway, by your argument, that t4 players won't have much incentive to go into t1-3 anyway, the chicken becomes irrelevant because no one will be chickenified in the first place, right? I must not understand your argument against the chicken, because "freedom to gank" = "freedom to piss on the lower levels" = "level 1-39 are not fun" = "grindfest to 40" = "not fun."

I, of course, have the opposite prediction. Indeed, we shall see.

[Axxar]

Well, look at it this way. We know that in PvE focused games, people will go out of their way to kill lowbies even though there's no reward in it. In populated areas there are constantly people doing this.

Now we're talking about gathering up all of those lowbie players and stick them on a server, greatly reduce the size of the area they'd be lowbie-killing in and reward such behavior. It's not hard to figure out.

[Kevinor]

I sure would like to see the reasoning, if any, for that belief.

Look through some of my recent posts; I addressed it directly in one somewhere although I can't remember exactly where.

Insulting other people's posts and then 'taking your football and going home' is not very constructive.

The burden of proof is on you. You labeled other people's posts and opinions as 'Sensationalism and Fallious reasoning', yet you fail to provide any credible evidence to support your accusation -- but rather you declare you are leaving instead of standing by your comment.

In my opinion, that suggests that you lack credibility to disprove the opposing viewpoints, and are simply being rude.

Agreed; it's not very constructive. However; neither is trying to have a discussion with people who throw around words like "sandbagging" and "ganking" in every second sentence without addressing any other significant points.

I've been on this merry-go-round before and it achieves nothing. Additionally; I would call your comments inferring everyone who would like the Chicken removed are cowards to be somewhat rude also. Although indeed that doesn't give me some sort of "free pass" to be rude back; nevertheless there it is.

In terms of credibility; that is for others to decide based on the content of my posts. It has very little to do with "proving" anything because the notion of a proof is that it is significantly without error or flaw. Not even words from Mythic constitute "proof" of how the game will be come launch because the game is still in development.

Because your reasoning was 100% objective, right. We disagree over whether or not t4s will want to go down to lower tiers. Just because I believe that they will does not mean that my arguments are wrong or baseless.

Tier 3 adds a signficant amount of VPs to tier 4. Tiers 1 and 2 don't add anywhere near as much, but the pickings are easier, so to speak. Anyway, by your argument, that t4 players won't have much incentive to go into t1-3 anyway, the chicken becomes irrelevant because no one will be chickenified in the first place, right? I must not understand your argument against the chicken, because "freedom to gank" = "freedom to piss on the lower levels" = "level 1-39 are not fun" = "grindfest to 40" = "not fun."

I, of course, have the opposite prediction. Indeed, we shall see.

More sensationlism; you have no idea how many VPs T3 adds to T4. Indeed we have already been told by Mythic that it is not significant. Additionally you're another one pigeonholing everyone who wants rid of the Chicken into the "I WANT TO GANKLOL" box.

This is most certainly my last post on the matter; enjoy!

[Loekii]

Well, look at it this way. We know that in PvE focused games, people will go out of their way to kill lowbies even though there's no reward in it. In populated areas there are constantly people doing this.

Now we're talking about gathering up all of those lowbie players and stick them on a server, greatly reduce the size of the area they'd be lowbie-killing in and reward such behavior. It's not hard to figure out.

I agree.

There are years of precedent for WAR decision (from UO to WoW), so I don't feel any position that ignores such, is credible.

Mythic has already stated that they consider Tier 40 v Tier 10 to be wrong and unwanted. Again, ignoring this position is just erroneous as well.

So to base you entire argument on ignoring the established facts and the audience, and then insulting those that try to explain those key points to you, is just childish.

[Auricthunder]

More sensationlism; you have no idea how many VPs T3 adds to T4. Indeed we have already been told by Mythic that it is not significant. Additionally you're another one pigeonholing everyone who wants rid of the Chicken into the "I WANT TO GANKLOL" box.

This is most certainly my last post on the matter; enjoy!

Sensationalist, maybe. I tend to think I'm right when I argue. I, however, admit my assumptions (see post responding to Frein) and try to avoid demeaning other people and their arguments, preferring to argue against the arguments themselves.

Assumption!! (just so you know, I'll admit when I'm making assumptions) T3 probably will add significant VPs to T4 because otherwise there would be absolutely no point at all in rising VPs, exactly because the VPs would be insignificant. Logically branching from this assumption, that you are free to disagree with and disprove/argue against, T4 players would engage in T3 zones, if given the option.

Finally, I have yet to see an argument against the chicken that isn't "I want to kill lowbies" or "I should have the freedom to kill lowbies, if I so choose." I have tried to argue that removing the chicken actually hurts gameplay and that the problem is significant.

It's hard to argue whether or not a problem is significant when we don't have a lot of the details about the information. My assumption is that T3, and the other zones to a lesser extent, add significant VPs to T4 and that T4 players, if given the option, will try to control these areas. I don't have a lot of proof besides my reasoning, but then again, without detailed specifics you can't argue that this problem is insignificant.

Here's the best I can do for proof: WoW's Gurubashi Arena (in Stranglethorn) is dominated by 70s. WoW's Outlands PvP is dominated by 70s, that usually show up for things like the Terrokar Spirit Towers and even Nagrand PvP, even though the rewards are not very significant. (Disclaimer: Unlike T3, there are item rewards from each of the Outlands instances, but they generally are not very good. This is somewhat analogous to T3 contributing to the war effort, even if minimally)

Also, I'd like to add another possible incentive for T4s to enter lower tiers and dominate: alts and guildies. You see it all the time in other MMOs. The intent is that each tier is decided by the players of that tier. Higher tier players would help their lower tiered friends so that their friends would get the rewards. So, regardless if the higher tier player is after some benefit to himself or a friend, the lower tiers would be decided by higher level players, which is contrary to the intent.

[Axxar]

It's always going to revolve around the tier 4s. If someone gets their asses kicked, you just know that 10 minutes down the road they're going to relog on their main to get their revenge, or they're going to get high level friends to help them. Just as it happened in Voldemort.

[Gloovish]

The MMO Gamer: Going in the opposite direction… While playing the demo I got to experience first hand your very amusing anti-griefing mechanic, whereby higher level players who wander into lower level world PvP areas are transformed into chickens if they don’t turn around within an allotted amount of time.
Is that going to be the case on all servers? Or are you considering setting certain ones aside for the gankers of the world to unite on?

Josh Drescher: That’s one of many mechanics in the game at the moment that will be evaluated closely during the guild beta. We all love it because it takes an… um… affectionate jab at a certain kind of player, but we’re absolutely going to be looking carefully at what happens with it and many other systems when the game is fully populated.
Source: http://www.mmo-gamer.com/?p=295
So nothing specific from Mythic other than that they will see how it goes in beta and that they like it but the beta results will be the determining factor of wither it's in.

[regalius]

Little confused here...Isnt this a RvR game?

At the least if a lowbie is unbelievabley stupid enough to attack a high level the lowbie deserves to die. Or at least be merclessly mocked for a few minutes and then pulverized.

I played a PvE and PvP server in wow, I didnt play a PvP server so when I went to raid lock moden I could be "chickenfied". I played PvP to PvP. There are flags for lowbies for a reason and I like the flag method.

If your in your zone and your below the max level you can opt not to pvp, this means that as long as your not PvPing or fighting in a pvp objective you can not be killed by higher levels. If you want balanced low level PvP BG instancs it. But if your low level and your flagged and running across the map your fair game. And if you go to the forum and cry about it. I have every right to laugh at you for subscribing to a >>>>RVR<<<<<< game and expecting to never die. If you want PvE then subscribe to a PvE game. Dont join the legion of morons on Wow PvP realm forums whining about being ganked when they
A)rolled on a PvP
B) flagged
C) installed an off switch in their brain

Also the full chicken mechanic is Definitely opposed I like being able to roam the map and being turned into a chicken when I enter a zone or when some idiot decides to attack me is a definite subscription killer.

If RvR, low level is going to be big then set the flag so that only players within 5 levels can attack a person, or whatever the reasonable limit for that zone is, but if he can attack me then I had better be able to kill him without penalty.

[Loekii]

To clarify, it appears that you are automatically turned into a chicken when you enter an enemy Tier that is too low.

[regalius]

I unfortuantely am not in beta, so maybe this is a stupid question, but if you turn ito a chicken when you enter enemy lowbie territory and not your own..... cant an army of high levels be waiting in their own area for the oncoming lowbies from the opposing side? and if this is the case what is the point of even allowing lowbie rvr.

I say instance off all lowbie RvR. Turn all big battle areas into max level RvR so we have more areas to fight. After all, 4 months after release any half serious player is going to have max level toons and that is what they are going to be RvRing with.....Having low level RvR areas is going to have the ame problems that WoW had with its low level BG's pre cross realm status, not enough players.

Sure atm you have lots of people leveling but go to any mmorpg and see how many lowbies you see on compared to the number of max level people. This whole chicken thing seems like a temp thing installed until they come up with a better system... at least hope so if WAR really thinks that they are going to have enough lowbies out their to keep up a true RvR type area that havent been watching any mmorpgs. most lowbies are more interested in flash leveling or twinking, and the lowbies that do pvp are soon going to level, and despite some peoples claims there will not be an endless flood of lowbies to take their place.

[Gloovish]

I say instance off all lowbie RvR. Turn all big battle areas into max level RvR so we have more areas to fight.
Welcome to Warhammer regalius.
See podcast 3 here (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/podcast/)to see how the zones are distributed.
Each pairing has 6 zones for tiers 1, 2, and 3 and 5 zones for tier 4.

[Pugslah]

Meh..

Mythic should just make a server set for the people like me who likes everything "balls to the wall" hard.:D

No chicken, and AoE effects everyone(Friendly Fire):cool: They could even throw in FFA.

[gothum]

OTHER:

How about a nerf function? I know this sounds a little out there but maybe this would work?? Maybe this would entice more players to come help in these zones? Maybe there could be a reward system?

Even still, I think you have to be playing the beta to make this call because everyone could have a different idea about what the game is like in their own mind and as we all know, people can be very imaginative.

[Gemini]

Though I really don't like the idea of not having a chicken, I do believe that the best idea is probably a compromise and having two types of servers with PvE open to PvPing. One with the chicken, one without.

[gothum]

I don't know...I don't think having a separate server is reasonable. Even if they were to implement it that server types population would be very low I would think. I don't mean to say that having a server type such as this wouldn't be good for some people, I'm just saying that there might be other ways to handle this that could enhance game play to a degree.

How about a nerf function? I know this sounds a little out there but maybe this would work?? Maybe this would entice more players to come help in these zones? Maybe there could be a reward system?.

Is this a good idea or not? I honestly can't say either or. How about some feedback on this.

[ChosenOne]

I don't know...I don't think having a separate server is reasonable. Even if they were to implement it that server types population would be very low I would think. I don't mean to say that having a server type such as this wouldn't be good for some people, I'm just saying that there might be other ways to handle this that could enhance game play to a degree.



Is this a good idea or not? I honestly can't say either or. How about some feedback on this.

Population would be low? How many do you think fit on a server? 10,000? We will estimate 10000 for easy math.

Just look at how many signed up for beta. If JUST people who signed up for beta buy the game thats over 40 servers. You know more then that will buy the game though. They have plenty to work with here and thats why you see them coming up with multiple server types.

[Gloovish]

Meh..

Mythic should just make a server set for the people like me who likes everything "balls to the wall" hard.:D

No chicken, and AoE effects everyone(Friendly Fire):cool: They could even throw in FFA.
They should also sell an extra computer peripheral with WAR. When you take damage in game you would get an electric shock irl... ideally to your hard balls.:D

[Loekii]

I unfortuantely am not in beta, so maybe this is a stupid question, but if you turn ito a chicken when you enter enemy lowbie territory and not your own..... cant an army of high levels be waiting in their own area for the oncoming lowbies from the opposing side? and if this is the case what is the point of even allowing lowbie rvr.


I am not sure, but I think it is:

You turn into a chicken when entering a too low Tier enemy zone -- just as you auto flag for entry if you are the correct or below the Tier.
You turn into a chicken if you become PvP flagged in your own lower Tiers.
So you could not have an army of High tier defenders, as they would turn to chickens the moment they tried to engage the enemy.

[Loekii]

Meh..

Mythic should just make a server set for the people like me who likes everything "balls to the wall" hard.:D

No chicken, and AoE effects everyone(Friendly Fire):cool: They could even throw in FFA.

I would be fine with that, provided that a tier 1 could actually battle a tier 4 player, and say 5 tier 1 players could take quickly take down a tier 4 player. However I am against a system where the combat code makes a tier 4 player immune from tier 1 players (ie WoW, EQ, etc). Players a > than the normal troops, -- mini-heros, destine to be a Tier 4 hero, so to speak -- so a group should be able to be as effective as say 1 tier 4. The 'demi-god' effect of poor programing is just stupid.

I also would like to see friendly fire -- especially 'fumbles and fizzles', with an increase in chance as players begin to get 'reckless'.

[Tocks]

OTHER

I'd say - let the community take care of itself. Way back in the day (in EQ) if someone was an absolute idiot - the community took care of the situation. If they were on a PvE server - they'd find themselves alone in a group oriented game - nobody would group with them, port them, etc...

If they were on a PvP server - I never played on one, but I've heard of people being PK'd into submission for being idiots.

Not everyone will gank or grief - heck... PROBABLY a very small minority will - and on certain nights, those folks might intercede with some player(s) playing in some place - but that will not be ALL places... people can go elsewhere - and those "few" WILL make names for themselves - if to nobody else - then to the people that they spent time ganking... people who WON'T be low level forever.

And - I sort of think it will bring each side of the community together a little bit too if folks are ganking. I'm a big proponent of things that make people need people in MMO's - if I am a higher level, and I hear about someone being ganked - there is a good chance that I will go and help - and I suspect others will too...

Let the community take care of itself on open servers.

[NoneSuch]

And - I sort of think it will bring each side of the community together a little bit too if folks are ganking. I'm a big proponent of things that make people need people in MMO's - if I am a higher level, and I hear about someone being ganked - there is a good chance that I will go and help - and I suspect others will too...

Let the community take care of itself on open servers.


Great so you help, And that turns into teir 4's fighting over a Tier 1 area. That's great, Tier 1 players get to watch Tier 4's duking it out - while they have to stand back and not get involved so they can't advance in RVR ranks or capture objectives and such.

Here's the problem, Wouldn't it build on the community just as much if say.. Tier 1 players helped each other to take on other groups of Tier 1 players rather than relying on Tier 4 players to come down and save them? I think Tactical and balanced combat over objectives and keeps builds a community more than people having to rely on higher ups to help them out of a situation.

Throws balance out of the window if you're incapable of generating VP's for your team because you can't PVP In the zones due to higher levels.

[Keldorn]

Every player is supposed to be able to participate in the RvR in his appropriate Tier.
Every Tier is supposed to contribute towards the main campaign, even if its minor.

The moment Tier 4 players are allowed to wreak havoc in Tier 1, that RvR area becomes inofficial Tier 4. Tier 1 players will play a minor role in their own Tier.

The community is only a partial solution here - it´s factional PvP, and many players consider any action against the other faction as completely acceptable. Tier 4 players supporting lower Tiers would work... except for the lower Tier players.
WAR would end up with PvP being "endgame" - reach the highest Tier as fast as possible and stay away from the "big guys" or you´ll get stepped upon.

Chicken might break the immersion, but its required to allow every player to fully participate in RvR, regardless of Tier. I´m fine with no chicken in a player´s own PvE area, though.

[Uncle_Remus]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the simple point that without some sort of "chicken" mechanism in place, you essentially turn the entire game into a level 40 RvR contest. I don't think it is put in place just to prevent lowbie ganking, but also to keep an even playing field in each tier of RvR.

[ahasueros]

That would suck if you randomly become a chicken just by stepping into a lower tier zone. I'd rather have it being so that when you attack a lowbie lets say atleast 10 levels lower than you then you would turn into a chicken

[Tocks]

Great so you help, And that turns into teir 4's fighting over a Tier 1 area. That's great, Tier 1 players get to watch Tier 4's duking it out - while they have to stand back and not get involved so they can't advance in RVR ranks or capture objectives and such.

Here's the problem, Wouldn't it build on the community just as much if say.. Tier 1 players helped each other to take on other groups of Tier 1 players rather than relying on Tier 4 players to come down and save them? I think Tactical and balanced combat over objectives and keeps builds a community more than people having to rely on higher ups to help them out of a situation.

Throws balance out of the window if you're incapable of generating VP's for your team because you can't PVP In the zones due to higher levels.

I see it differently.

A semi-related story:

Back when I was a lowbie ranger in EQ, a high level ranger came and found me - and gave me some gear. It wasn't great gear - but it was better than anything I would have been able to get by myself.

I was absolutely thrilled - I asked what I could do to repay him... he said, essentially, remember this - and do it yourself when you get to be a high level ranger.

And so I did - every now and then, I'd go back to Kelethin for no other reason than to find low level rangers - and bestow a gift or two on them - nothing hugely great - but something that would be better than anything they would be able to get.

As the years went by - it got harder and harder to find actual "newb" rangers - a time or two, I spent an hour or better running around Greater Faydark, tracking this ranger or that - seeking a newb ranger - and every time I found one, I gave them a gift.

Over time - I'd get tells from out of the blue - from folks I didn't remember, but who remembered me - they'd send me a note letting me know that they also "paid it forward" and gifted someone - and how much they appreciated it when I did it for them.

Honestly - it was a GREAT "in game" experience.

While this is a different situation - it is the same premise... going to a lowbie area from time to time, spending an hour there or whatever - and just making sure the area is safe for them to hunt - to me - is a GREAT community builder. Stop by, give some gear or whatever - keep the place from getting over-run if you can... and tell folks just to "pay it forward" when they get to be a high level - to come back from time to time, gift a newb - chat with them a bit - and make sure they don't get ganked.

I'm sure doing that isn't something everyone will do - might not even be something that a lot of people will do.... but I think that Warhammer - by it's nature - will be a game where players DO rely on their community... and I think this can be just another community builder that some folks will do from time to time on open servers.

[Lancelot]

This makes no sense. If you want safe areas you can go on a core server. You still get RVR and PVP, and you can be safe like you want. I don't see the problem. Is it that people want to say they play on a open pvp server, even if they want core server rules? If you can't handle the frustration of being griefed then you have another option. Join a core server.

As for the chicken rule, a lvl 19 will still pwn a lvl 10. Without a chicken rule, you can call your lvl 21 guild mate come down and help. Let us say we get the chicken rule. Guess what will happen when some one, who wants to be a "special person" is a level from the next tier. They will grief and grief and grief until they lvl. You wont get rid of griefing and ganking. So if you want safe, none grief/gank enviorment you can have it. Just on a core server.

My feelings exactly. There are always ways to grief in an open server, with our without a chicken mechanic. People who are asking for full chickenafication on an open rvr server, are you sure you don't want the core rules instead?

[Thalion]

My feelings exactly. There are always ways to grief in an open server, with our without a chicken mechanic. People who are asking for full chickenafication on an open rvr server, are you sure you don't want the core rules instead?

I just want some other mechanic our awesome devs can think of :rolleyes: I just dont like the taste of chicken on Open rvr as well, but something else...

[Leontes]

Firstly, I didn't read the thread.

Secondly, not having a chicken mechanic in place would essentially make the entire game a stomping ground for Rank 40 players because Tiers 1 and 2 are still important to the battlefront.

That's neat and all and provides a lot of different environments for combat other than the standard Tier 4 Campaign game, but there's the possibility that being able to PvP in those zones to gain faction points might further dilute the amount of players fighting in the same regions. Instead of having 3 RvR battlefront zones at any given time, you'd have 12 that were important to the overall war effort, and you might run into situations where there wasn't anybody to fight.

I understand the concern with outleveling content and essentially wasting all of that space to fight, but if the game is designed for Tier 1 and 2 players to engage in RvR on those small scales in fair fights and still contribute to Tier 4's campaign game, then allowing Rank 40 players to "help" in those zones would probably horribly skew the nature of the game.

We'll see what they plan to do, though. I'm almost certain they'll keep the chicken in no matter what server type you're on JUST to preserve the even Tiered combat and to prevent Rank 40s from dominating those battlegrounds.

[realcyberghost]

I find the chicken mechanic dumb.

If we are not supposed to kill the lowbies, we should not be allowed to go there ( like in DAoC, where homelands are seperated from RvR )

Or make it like in EvE-Online, this is much more realistic.
There is you try to gank anyone in emprire space, you get obilterated by Concord security forces.

So the only thing you can do there is suicide gank ( so your partner can loot the wreckage ).

In WAR it would work like this, you can kill a lowbie, but the cavalry ( guards ) would arrive within seconds and there would be no escape, you die.

In the midrange tiers, you still have guards, but less agressive.

Something like that.

Chicken is just plain dumb, why let anyone go there in the 1st place?

Greetz

[Lancelot]

I find the chicken mechanic dumb.

If we are not supposed to kill the lowbies, we should not be allowed to go there ( like in DAoC, where homelands are seperated from RvR )

Or make it like in EvE-Online, this is much more realistic.
There is you try to gank anyone in emprire space, you get obilterated by Concord security forces.

So the only thing you can do there is suicide gank ( so your partner can loot the wreckage ).

In WAR it would work like this, you can kill a lowbie, but the cavalry ( guards ) would arrive within seconds and there would be no escape, you die.

In the midrange tiers, you still have guards, but less agressive.

Something like that.

Chicken is just plain dumb, why let anyone go there in the 1st place?

Greetz

I would certainly accept not being able to go to a newbie area than being a chicken instead. Even better is the idea about guards. They do not even have to be totally uber, just decent guards who can turn the tables on the aggressor. This way both sides will know that nobody will be easy meat as long as they are smart enough, but also keep the concept of danger wherever you are.

[Gemini]

I don't like the above guard idea, honestly. WAR has no death penalty other than time, so theres no real discouragement from ganking, it will just take longer to rack up a bunch of newbie kills. It's not preventative, since you can still gank, and it's not even really punitive because there is no great punishment. And even if deaths from these gaurds had a death penalty, people would still do it.

[vizer1]

Ok so far

63.8% ant some form of Chicken (IE anti griefing)
22.5% abstain or wouldnt play with open ruleset.
22% Les than a quarter of this game wants to deal with griefers.

Now this is a good sign when you arent automatically overrun by the I want to kill greys because I dont have the skill to handle someone my own level and i wanna spoil other peoples enjoyment for the hell of it crowd.

I have High hopes for this game, as far as reality goes, if ya want reality go enlist in the Army and serve in Iraq or Afganistan, for now Ill keep my games filled with fun.

Well Just My 2 cents.

[impulsebooks]

There are so many of these chicken threads now that I was wondering if WAR devs (or any other games) had maybe thought of this:

A set of servers to level up to the cap using a core ruleset, but upon reaching 40 the player gets a free server transfer invite. He or she can choose to stay or go to an open pvp ruleset server.

In this way everyone will be 40 on the open ruleset and no chicken is needed.

[Gemini]

There are so many of these chicken threads now that I was wondering if WAR devs (or any other games) had maybe thought of this:

A set of servers to level up to the cap using a core ruleset, but upon reaching 40 the player gets a free server transfer invite. He or she can choose to stay or go to an open pvp ruleset server.

In this way everyone will be 40 on the open ruleset and no chicken is needed.

So, your idea is someone can level up without getting ganked, and then run free into a different server to gank people? I vote no.

[Vilehakk]

No, the complete t4 population of any given server will not overrun the hapless noobs, drunken in a gank-happy stupor, if allowed. Oh the drama. With the vast amount of endgame pvp (and t4 REWARDS) happening in t4, most people are going to stay there even given the option to gank.

[impulsebooks]

So, your idea is someone can level up without getting ganked, and then run free into a different server to gank people? I vote no.

No. If you read what I said you will see that I meant everyone levels up on a server, but then moves to a server at 40 where EVERYONE is the same level and the server is open pvp. That way there will be NO ganking by 40s on newbs and everyone can go ANYWHERE.

[realcyberghost]

I don't like the above guard idea, honestly. WAR has no death penalty other than time, so theres no real discouragement from ganking, it will just take longer to rack up a bunch of newbie kills. It's not preventative, since you can still gank, and it's not even really punitive because there is no great punishment. And even if deaths from these gaurds had a death penalty, people would still do it.

Time is always the only penalty.


So I will lay it out for you how a Guard system would work well :

1st the ganker has to get to the area in question, all the roads to this area are guarded ( like in WoW, but better ). After a few deaths, the ganker finally reaches his gankspot, he 1-hit kills a lowbie, 5 guards on horses come in and kill the ganker, with no escape possible. He then comes back alive outside the zone, so he has to get passed the 1st guards again before reaching the gankspot.
The ganked player comes alive inside the zone, so he looses less time.

So basically the ganker looses more time then the ganked.

This is on the OPEN rulest not the Carebear ruleset

If you dont like it, play the Carebear server.

Edit : I would like to add, that for the lowest levels, they should be flagged PvE, like in WoW. ( can not be attacked unless they attack 1st )

Thing is, if I want to explore the enemy realm, I should be able too.

This chicken thing wont be a game breaker in itself for me, but a few more of these stupid things and I will probably not play the game for long.

edit :
Hmm I see how wrong I was here now ...
This just doesnt make sence :p
The main problem is not the low level PvE areas, but the low level RvR areas.

I guess the Core server rule is what it is, the Core and EA mythic should do all they can to make the best of it and actually drop Open servers.

But I still think the chicken mechanic is dumb, just dont allow players to go to the lower level areas then. Like how in DAoC the enemy could not get into your home realm.

greetz

[Peacepipe]

If I wasn't already in LOVE with WAR I am now!!

War has made a statement with the chickenefication of gankers and I hear it loud and clear. Gankers are NOT PvP'ers, they are lowlife cowards, pure and simple.

I voted conflict chickenification because I want to be able to explore all areas, even enemy territory but not to pick on lower levels like so many jackasses in MMO's.

[ManiaCCC]

realcyberghost, is hard taking your words seriously when you using carebear word so wrong..

[Peacepipe]

Ok so far

63.8% ant some form of Chicken (IE anti griefing)
22.5% abstain or wouldnt play with open ruleset.
22% Les than a quarter of this game wants to deal with griefers.

Now this is a good sign when you arent automatically overrun by the I want to kill greys because I dont have the skill to handle someone my own level and i wanna spoil other peoples enjoyment for the hell of it crowd.

I have High hopes for this game, as far as reality goes, if ya want reality go enlist in the Army and serve in Iraq or Afganistan, for now Ill keep my games filled with fun.

Well Just My 2 cents.


I agree heartily, and I'm pretty sure the chickenefication of cowards will keep the bozos away from WAR. We can only hope. Oh, and btw, if you're a lowlife ganker reading this....go find another game!

[Shalaa]

I'm quite happy with the chicken system, the only other alternative i can think of is some sort of prison, if your killed without a rezz in an opponents territory then you get executed in public for being a low life ganker :D

[King Luke]

I voted Full Chicken!

It's there for a purpose. That purpose is: stop the tier 4 people completly dominating low-tier zones in order to get enormous amounts of victory points.

If they don't have the chicken system, it would get to a point where low lvl players will not be able to PvP at all due to there being lvl 40's in all zones, and then they'd be stuck doing PvE - Which is not what WAR is all about!

The Chicken System is ingeneous, and without it, the PvP of WAR would just fall apart.

[Frisk]

*EDITED for content*

[cthulhucult]

full chickenification, no griefing, thanks.

[Oxygen.]

Take world of warcraft, for instance. Ganking is fun. But there's no reward to it. Go in ashenvale. I've probably only been ganked once, or twice? Same with pretty much any zone. So no chicken. If someone wants to waste his time ganking, good for him ( bad? ). I just laugh when that happens anyways.

I'll be the ganking you, really though. QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

[Zacharius]

Conflict Chickenification in enemy teretory

But if a lowbie attacks YOU then you may kill them, and not get the chicken

Since if a lowbie attacked you and you got the chicken even though you had no plans to attack HIM/HER then it would rather ruin whatever you were there for in the first place

[Loekii]

Conflict Chickenification in enemy teretory

But if a lowbie attacks YOU then you may kill them, and not get the chicken

Since if a lowbie attacked you and you got the chicken even though you had no plans to attack HIM/HER then it would rather ruin whatever you were there for in the first place

Problem is that people will abuse the system to get lowbies to attack them -- even use exploits or tricks to get unintentionally targeted. I believe that was a problem in other games.

I think they should just keep the Chicken system universal -- except if they make a Free-for-All PvP server.

It is just easier and sticks with the spirit of the game, imo.

[Gloovish]

Conflict Chickenification in enemy teretory

But if a lowbie attacks YOU then you may kill them, and not get the chicken

Since if a lowbie attacked you and you got the chicken even though you had no plans to attack HIM/HER then it would rather ruin whatever you were there for in the first place
Given what you describe high level people will still dominate lower tiers and objectives.

[Zacharius]

Given what you describe high level people will still dominate lower tiers and objectives.

I believe if the mods are smart in WAR (which I hope they are) they will make it so they can't affect the Victory Point gain in any tier but there own (a Tier 2 guy will not be able to do anything to capture a point in a Tier 1 zone, no victory points will be given if he killed a lowbie who attacked him etc)

As for higher Tier guys trying to force lower Tiers to target them by accident. How about it takes around, 9secs?, for them to become free-game?

Oh and. If you get the Tzeentch reference in this. Give yourself a pat on the back

[Nerissa]

Mythic also implemented public quests in RvR scenarios. Mythic also tried to pigeonhole everyone into PVE servers. Mythic also did a bunch of other dumb things I'm not allowed to talk about that may or may not have to do with the game simply being unfinished at the time of the previous beta session.
.

PvE, huh.


Comparing to WoW servers...

PvE: Safe from attack in all areas

PvP: Safe from attack in home areas, attackable in contested and enemy areas. (Equivalent to Core ruleset for WAR. Safe from attack in home areas, attackable in constested RVR areas and ENEMY areas)


The Open PvP set that allows you to attack others in their home areas is simply a pandering to people that want to gank. Core is not PvE, and you guys claiming that it is will not make it so.

[Warmaster tibs]

I hope say a guy from tier 4 guy can enter tier 1 and walk around freely in any non-rvr area on there side.
So the tier 4 guy can help with quests (not public quests) and help out the low levels giving them some RVR advice and tips but no direct effect on tier ones rvr system.
=chickenized if high lv guy goes into low lv rvr period NO GREFING (SP)
but he can walk around in his sides PVE areas and his base, but NO rvr for high lv guys in lv level areas whatsoever.=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO GREFING(SP)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zacharius]

I think I saw a vid on Youtube with the chicken mechanic in effect on it.

I think it was said that you will only be turned into a chicken if you enter the RvR part of the lower tier zones, the PvE parts are still open field.

Or something like that

[Battlized]

I think that full chickenification is a great idea not only because it protects the fun factor for low level and "new" players, But because it will add an exciting new facet to the game. Which will make it a fun activity to have an alt created for each tier of pvp.

This will add another layer to WAR only increasing its replayability and addictiveness.

This is also a gold mine for the true hardcore pvper's in some of us.

I understand that some of you actually enjoying pk'ing people that cant defend themselves. Im not sure why you feel that way but some of your do enjoy it nonetheless. However I think its best for the game to do what makes sense to people and not what makes sense to the select few.

Im not sure if anyone mentioned this yet because i failed to read through 13 pages of posts. so forgive me if so.

[Pogo]

regardless of your level or gear, you are still my enemy, res and avoid me at all costs, or you will die.


As long as there is an option to avoid being completely body camped im fine with that.

Maybe after being killed by a siginificantly higher player, you can be killed by THAT player for another 15 minutes.

*shrugs.

[Annesh]

I will always be staunchly against any kind of restriction on PvP.

[logicalmayhem]

i like the you look tank and scary all the time but if you try 2 attack somone you get chickened


You should NOT be turned into a chicken if someone attacks you if a low lvl is that dumb you should be able to kill them lol
hostile actions should be classed as

flag capturing
any offensive action against an enemy who hasn't hit u so hitting healers who haven't done any direct damage 2 you will put you in chicken stance (and your attack will do 1 damage)

[MrChrist]

Chicken in lower RvR areas. Everywhere else open imo.
So the RvR objectives can't be dominated by higher levels, which is the only real concern in my eyes.

[Dreavus]

what is chickenifcation anyways?

[Gemini]

what is chickenifcation anyways?

Type "chicken" in the forum search engine and you'll be assulted with lots of answers and even more opinions on it.

[Loekii]

what is chickenifcation anyways?

Here is a video of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSq-Wj_PwAc

[Gloovish]

From keeps and sieges explained (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/gameFeatures/keepsandsiege.php) in the February newsletter(middle of page):
Guard levels are set to the maximum for the zone per standard RvR level caps (level 12 for Tier 1, level 23 for Tier 2, level 40 for Tiers 3 and 4)So there you have it. Presumably if you're in a tier and above the maximum level for that tier then PAWKPAWK...

[Cybaster]

If you've got a problem getting ganked, play on a core ruleset server. You don't belong on an open one.

I initially voted: No chickenification.

However, even a cursory glance at the latest newsletter suggests Gloovish is entirely correct, and that this kind of behavior will be actively prevented. When I consider what kind of effect high level characters would have on the health of low level siege environments, I can't help but rethink my opinion...

[realcyberghost]

If you've got a problem getting ganked, play on a core ruleset server. You don't belong on an open one.

I initially voted: No chickenification.

However, even a cursory glance at the latest newsletter suggests Gloovish is entirely correct, and that this kind of behavior will be actively prevented. When I consider what kind of effect high level characters would have on the health of low level siege environments, I can't help but rethink my opinion...

I agree, however I find the chicken solution just dumb and not WAR.

[Utakata]

A level cap, if you're level 40 and enter a tier 1 zone your level is set to 12 you temporarily lose abilities past level 12 and equipment past level 12 but are still free to equip old stuff up to level 12. Same goes for tier 2. Seems like the most fair and fun possible for everyone.

[realcyberghost]

I think I may have replied here before about Core VS Open.

Thing is, I prefer Core, but I am afraid all the PvP'ers will think Open is the way to go.

So Open will be where the most action will be.

That is why I am forced to choose open.

However I would have prefered to only have Core servers. The way it was meant to be played.

Open RvR is like creating an EVE online with less security in empire space. That game is meant to be relativity safe in empire space, where you can mind your own business and not worry about gankers while doing PvE.

And EVE is as hardcore as it gets.


Greetz

[Mercury]

If people are given the opportunity to be a god (high level in a lower tier) they will. If you introduce pvp objectives that lower levels will compete over no doubt will high levels come and ruin the fun by owning everyone. More so in WoW griefing can be abused. In WoW it was simply catching people leveling up, in warhammer pvp involves gaining exp. You bet there will be hats ruining the fun.

Chickenitaztion on open RvR servers. I know it goes against open RvR but ganking is stupid higher levels who suck shouldn't be able to do it.

[Cybaster]

Open RvR is like creating an EVE online with less security in empire space. That game is meant to be relativity safe in empire space, where you can mind your own business and not worry about gankers while doing PvE.

Heh, yeah. But when you get jumped in WAR you don't explode, sending bits of your gear everywhere. Hopefully you had insurance so you only lost a ton of credits and every space penny you spent on your ship - and nevermind skill point loss if your clone was inadequate.

You just get back up after death, set back ten minutes or so in whatever task you were occupied with. No big deal.

[Slogo]

From another thread that was locked (but I wanted to reply =/)

Yes, true... but you can always have patrolling guards, and it will be more likely that your 40's from your realm would be traveling there too.. and if it's not so long to travel there I think it would be more people who is coming to assist you. This is a group based game, I think people will help other people becouse it matters.


Patrolling guards would limit the point of open Ruleset. The lower level players (the ones that are the right level for the tier) wouldn't be able to handle the guards and PvP in the PvE area. This goes against the goal of an open Ruleset server.


Yes, good point. But if a keep is under siege, I think the griefers go and attack the keep instead of attacking low lvls. And even if they didnt, I think someone should come and help you. But as I said, a good point.

You can't really make too much for assumptions for what players will do. A griefer has no motivation to grief (other than amusement) so it's not like they really care about getting the rewards of attacking a keep. A person who would help out against a griefer is likely to be interested in things with rewards (as most players are) which means they're also likely to want to participate in the RvR with rewards. Some players are likely to come back and help but overall I think the equation is more in favor of having more griefers running around than people killing the griefers.

I don't see why you should get exp for killing something that is far lower level than you are. I don't think a 40 who is killing a 29 (just a example) should get anything at all, no loot, no exp. nothing.

I was implying that the group doing the killing was the appropriate level for the area (so 29s killing 29s.


True, but I don't want to feel that I am stuck in the higher tiers if I lets say want to gather something in the lower tiers, want to one hit mobs for opening my ToK etc etc... Or I am just bored and want to take a look in different places, or explore the map for exploration quests... find these "secret" stuff Paul was talking about.

I see better now what you're getting at. I tend to agree then that the chicken mechanism, on both Open and Closed rulesets should accommodate this (in both RvR and PvE areas). If I want to travel out to the RvR area for some location based unlock I should be able to. Any attempts to do RvR should turn me into a chicken though.

[Miklo]

I agree heartily, and I'm pretty sure the chickenefication of cowards will keep the bozos away from WAR. We can only hope. Oh, and btw, if you're a lowlife ganker reading this....go find another game!

Don´t understand:confused:

So, if anyone wants something that you don´t want the should just "take the road to...."??

Even if theres different options, (different serverrulesets), so that all or atleast most of us can be satisfied it shoulnd´t be in because there should only be ONE option thats suits you!!?

Gankers/griefers may not be the best peoples out there.... but so are not bullying peoples either.

[Chakar]

No, you can't realy know what people "will do". But I think they will.

But why have a "open RvR ruleset server" if its not that open at all? You can have a RvR conflict Chicken Mechanic in it. so you can explore the map and everything... but if it is a "open RvR" that means it is open, not "A limited open RvR rulset server so you cant attack lower level characters". If you want something like that, roll on a core server...

[Raizen]

I think it'd be nice to organize big Chicken Wars. Have everyone run into a newb area and turn into a chicken then gather on the battlefield. It'd be so intensely epic having a thousand chickens stare each other down.

[Kruggak]

Why not just have it so the high level character becomes the same level as the highest level the region allows... That way a L40 enters a L10 pvp zone he becomes L10 so he can still play pvp fairly but doesnt go *poof chicken*

Would also allow the smaller zones to be used more by high level players after they advanced out of them

[Zacharius]

Why not just have it so the high level character becomes the same level as the highest level the region allows... That way a L40 enters a L10 pvp zone he becomes L10 so he can still play pvp fairly but doesnt go *poof chicken*

Would also allow the smaller zones to be used more by high level players after they advanced out of them

I think the reason they are doing it like *poof chicken* is they want L40 guys to be in the L40 area, doing L40 things and working on gaining L40 points and such.

[Chakar]

Why not just have it so the high level character becomes the same level as the highest level the region allows... That way a L40 enters a L10 pvp zone he becomes L10 so he can still play pvp fairly but doesnt go *poof chicken*

Would also allow the smaller zones to be used more by high level players after they advanced out of them

I think that would just mess it up even more, what about gear? stats? skills?

I would like to have no Chicken Mechanic whatsoever in the Open RvR PvE zones, but it has to be a must in the RvR zones.

Core server = A high level can enter the PvE zones without any problem. But cant attack enemy players there if they're not flagged.

Shouldn't it be the same in a Open except that he CAN attack a enemy player? becouse it is OPEN RvR? therefore...

Open RvR = A high level can enter the PvE zones without any problem. And he can attack enemy players, becouse they are always flagged.

[Chakar]

I think the reason they are doing it like *poof chicken* is they want L40 guys to be in the L40 area, doing L40 things and working on gaining L40 points and such.

So you mean they are forcing us to do lvl 40 stuff becouse they have prisioned us to our tier and we cant go to the lower places becouse we're turning into chickens? And that is only becouse it is a Open RvR Ruleset server?

In a Core you can go to the lower tiers as much as you want, why shoudn't you be able to do it in the open ruleset server? the only thing that is different from a Core and Open is that in a Open you're always flagged For RvR. But on a Core you can decide if you want to fight or not...

I'm saying as I said before:

Core server = A high level can enter the PvE zones without any problem. But cant attack enemy players there if they're not flagged.

Shouldn't it be the same in a Open except that he CAN attack a enemy player? becouse it is OPEN RvR? therefore...

Open RvR = A high level can enter the PvE zones without any problem. And he can attack enemy players, becouse they are always flagged.

[Rezzan]

I think the reason they are doing it like *poof chicken* is they want L40 guys to be in the L40 area, doing L40 things and working on gaining L40 points and such.

You mean like the WoW devs wanted their lvl 70s to be in the lvl 70 bgs and instances, doing lvl 70 things and working on gaining lvl 70 epics and such?

Do you really want that again?

[Marcellius]

I don't want WAR to become a pathetic gankfest where level 40 characters hang around lowbie RvR zones nuking them for the lulz. I vote for full chickenification - if you can't play with kids your own age they don't let you back in the sandbox.

[Rezzan]

I don't want WAR to become a pathetic gankfest where level 40 characters hang around lowbie RvR zones nuking them for the lulz. I vote for full chickenification - if you can't play with kids your own age they don't let you back in the sandbox.

Why don't you just go core then and leave the open pvpers alone?

[Marcellius]

Why don't you just go core then and leave the open pvpers alone?

Because there IS no reason for a level 40 to be in a level 12 zone? It isn't for a level 40, it doesn't reward a level 40, and honest-to-goodness hardworking level 12 characters don't need the additional problem of some guy who can kill all of them again and again and again as soon as they head out to the battlefield.

Sure, you can argue that "Oh, why don't you just get a level 40 on your team," but that goes back to the same issue - it still doesn't reward a level 40. It would take an opposing player being incredibly bored without anything better to do to go out and grief a bunch of lowbies, and it would take an allied player an incredible willingness to help "just because," and even then, there is nothing at all in place to stop the enemy player from coming back to do it some more as soon as your big buddies leave?

No thanks.

[Rezzan]

Because there IS no reason for a level 40 to be in a level 12 zone?


Oh sorry, it seems "fun" is not a valid reason anymore...


It isn't for a level 40, it doesn't reward a level 40, and honest-to-goodness hardworking level 12 characters don't need the additional problem of some guy who can kill all of them again and again and again as soon as they head out to the battlefield.

Once again, that's your opinion. You don't want lvl 40s that gank you, you don't want to ask other lvl 40s to help you and you want to be able to level in peace.

But guess what? Other people are different! In fact, some are even excited at the thought of never being safe and not being able to kill everyone single-handedly. They enjoy the added feel of danger and they could care less if they get ganked.

And once these players reach the lvl cap they usually gank themselves, because of lore reasons, boredom and, believe it or not, fun.
It's just what you do in videogames... You kill... for fun...

You still didn't answer my question btw: There is a server type that suits your playstyle perfectly and there is one that doesn't suit you at all. So why why do you even try to change something that doesn't affect you? Am I trying to remove the chicken mechanic from core servers? Hell no! I could care less what's happening there ...

So just go on your server, play there and everyone will be happy ;)

[Malis]

I kinda like it...it prevents rampant griefing of lower levels.

on the other hand if you have a buddy who just started you cant just go hang out and help them out.

Id prefer something like you are reduced to the highest level for that tier.

[Tak'zenen]

CoH/V had that. Great system.

I like the chicken mechanic. I'll go to lower levels and peck players just to lighten their day and mine. Nothing funnier than blowing up a chicken.

[Marcellius]

If someone wants to have fun severely outclassing their opponents and inhibiting someone else's game time, I suggest EVE Online. I don't believe that the personality type who maliciously attacks opponents at a completely unfair advantage for personal fun is the kind conducive to a fun gaming environment. One person can cause any number of people an infinite amount of strife just because he wants to have fun. Yeah, sounds like a gas.

I want to play on an open RvR realm because I want the thrill of maybe encountering a band of roving dwarves (who are, mind you, my level). I want the anticipation of planning an ambush on some stunties who are entirely unsuspecting of me and my gang o' boyz. I want to know that when I get attacked that I have a fighting chance and if I lose, I want it to be because I was deficient. Because I didn't anticipate my foes, because I was outnumbered, because my strategy or my timing or any number of things I could have done better were stymied and defeated by a superior opponent.

Forgive me if I don't quite share the enthusiasm for losing a battle because someone was 28 levels higher than me.

[Velryn]

I said conflict chicken in enemy territory because I want to be able to wander in the shadowlands as a Shadow Warrior a lot, it's just that I won't gank when I'm there and I'll avoid fighting.

[Chakar]

I don't think there will be so much grifers in WAR, becouse... there is constant struggling in the tier 3 and 4, especially 4... they will always get a keep attacked, will always have to defend their realm. If they got a "Keep under siege" I don't think a 40 go "Nah, whatevah... It's just a keep. I'll go gank some low lvls". It wont happen.

Played DaoC? If a keep was under siege everyone dropped what they were doing and started to defend their keep. This is a RvR game, not a PvE game with 3%involving is PvP.

And if there is a Full Chicken Mechanic in Open... that means you are stuck in your tier and can't get anywhere else than your bit of land...? And that should be a "Open RvR Ruleset Server"? Come on...

If I found out a cool titel someone has, and I ask him where'd he get it. And he tells me to kill some low mobs in tier 2. And I really, really want that title... oh well, no can do. I am already a tier 4 and cant get down to those creatures... and then you'll think... oh darn... why did I roll on a Open server, I can't even get down to those levels now. The same thing with those secret stuff Paul was talking about, putting stuff in caves. Adding stuff on places you normally wouldn't be. What if you want to get the title "Explorer" or something (just made it up) and to get that title you need to find 80/100 secret stuff, but wait... you cant even get down to the lower tiers and search for them? Why? Beacouse of the chicken mechanic.

And if it got a chicken mechanic, is it a Open RvR server? I see it like a "Limited Open RvR Server So People Can't Greif Low Levels" and imo... that is not Open RvR server. Greifing has always been a part of PvP servers and in this case Open RvR Servers. It has always been grifers in these game. It's a part of the MMO. If you don't want to be grifed (which I doubt will happen too often) roll on a core. And remember, when you hit 40, You can always do the same. And I want to live in a thrill that I am not safe anywhere, I don't care if I got ganked once in a while.

And I personally don't think people have time to grief so much as they did in "the other game" simply becouse this is a RvR game, only the people who played DaoC know what this is about... RvR. It is about team effort in your faction. Destruction and Order. It matters to do stuff now, it matters to kill people, it matters to defend a keep, it matters to defend your city... everything matters somehow. And you gain something for it. You get loot, you get exp, you get titels. They don't have so much time to do that kind of stuff. Ofc it will happen, but I don't think it will be as much griefing as in "the other game".

And if it should happen there is some griefers there now, ok? let them have fun... They'll be gone. Or just call your friends, world chat or something. And "Poof" there is 20 40's there now who is assisting you, why? becouse it matters somehow. All quests you complete matters. So they will help you. They will assist you, I am sure about that. And... they will assist you, becouse, it is fun. It is fun to put down people to the ground and get them begging for thier lives (especially grifers). And people in this game will assist you becouse it matters, and it is fun... can it be better?

I'm totaly for Open Servers to be Open RvR. Not some kind of limited server with chicken mechanics.

[Rezzan]

If someone wants to have fun severely outclassing their opponents and inhibiting someone else's game time, I suggest EVE Online. I don't believe that the personality type who maliciously attacks opponents at a completely unfair advantage for personal fun is the kind conducive to a fun gaming environment. One person can cause any number of people an infinite amount of strife just because he wants to have fun. Yeah, sounds like a gas.

You're skewing the facts here. No one forces you to play on an open server. If you don't like being ganked, don't play there... If you decide to play on such a server, you'll have to live with being ganked.

Furthermore, you make it sound like "ganking" is having fun at the expense of others. You actually may feel that way, but there are others, me included, who have absolutely no problem with being ganked whatsoever. And that's the type of players, this server is made for.


I want to play on an open RvR realm because I want the thrill of maybe encountering a band of roving dwarves (who are, mind you, my level). I want the anticipation of planning an ambush on some stunties who are entirely unsuspecting of me and my gang o' boyz. I want to know that when I get attacked that I have a fighting chance and if I lose, I want it to be because I was deficient. Because I didn't anticipate my foes, because I was outnumbered, because my strategy or my timing or any number of things I could have done better were stymied and defeated by a superior opponent.

Forgive me if I don't quite share the enthusiasm for losing a battle because someone was 28 levels higher than me.

In your entire paragraph you didn't give me a single reason why you want to play on an open server. Everything you listed is included in core servers too.

Futhermore it's kinda funny that you're fine with being ganked by players who outnumber you, but you hate being ganked by someone not your lvl. What do you do if someone has better gear than you than? :rolleyes:

You sould realise that the only difference between open and core servers is ganking. If you don't like it go core. If you don't mind, prepare to get your kicked by higher lvls and to be corpsecamped till you log off :mrgreen:

[Gloovish]

You're skewing the facts here. No one forces you to play on an open server. If you don't like being ganked, don't play there... If you decide to play on such a server, you'll have to live with being ganked.

Furthermore, you make it sound like "ganking" is having fun at the expense of others. You actually may feel that way, but there are others, me included, who have absolutely no problem with being ganked whatsoever. And that's the type of players, this server is made for.

Irony much? Open RvR servers are NOT gank servers. The difference between Open and Core is that in Open you are PvP flagged all the time, even in PvE zones. Mythic never said Open is for higher levels gankin lower levels. The fact that they invented the chicken mechanic suggests they are against it. I think you skewed the facts and interpreted it how you would like it to be instead of how it is.


In your entire paragraph you didn't give me a single reason why you want to play on an open server. Everything you listed is included in core servers too.
There are plenty of reasons to play on Open with a chicken mechanic instead of core.
You can fight and ambush people anywhere. It's very exciting. It also avoid situations where you see your enemy but can't attack because they are unflagged.

Futhermore it's kinda funny that you're fine with being ganked by players who outnumber you, but you hate being ganked by someone not your lvl. What do you do if someone has better gear than you than? :rolleyes:
There is a huge difference. When you fight people your level at least you have a chance, at least you are potentially useful and can make a difference. If you lose, then next fight you use a different strategy. You try to improve yourself. The fighting has meaning to you because the game is not rigged.

If you are dodging gankers you are just a cocroach running around trying to avoid getting stomped against an enemy you can't defeat. Gank dodging or gank hunting is barely PvP and it's definitely not RvR. Ganking is incompatible with large fights, world objectives and leveling from RvR. In a ganking world the low levels hide, are usually solitary and try to level up from PvE. They have no other options since they get obliterated by the big boys.


You sould realise that the only difference between open and core servers is ganking. If you don't like it go core. If you don't mind, prepare to get your kicked by higher lvls and to be corpsecamped till you log off :mrgreen:Why do you even want to play WAR? You can just continue playing on WoW PvP servers. Unlike WoW, Open servers are not gank servers. Unlike WoW, there is no such thing as corpsecamping in WAR. Unlike WoW, there is RvR in WAR and it's supposed to be meaningful from level one. You talk about WAR but it actually sounds like you are talking about WoW since all your default assumptions about mechanics are taken out of WoW. WAR is a different game.

[Marcellius]

Thank you, Gloovish, it's good to see someone can understand where I'm coming from instead of mindlessly defending ganking as some kind of glorious benefit of open RvR.

I really have nothing to add to the above. Point pretty much reiterated.

[ManiaCCC]

Yea, still don't see why people think that open RvR servers will be without chicken rule... :)

They never said anything about open and chicken.. But hey said MANY times they are against High level chars go to lower tiers and kill lowbies.. So IMO, it's pretty evident that chicken rule is here to stay even in Open RvR servers... but of course.. things can change and anything... but still, atm we have no indications chickens wont be on Open RvR.. which is good and I maybe will try Open server..

[Loekii]

I'm saying as I said before:

Core server = A high level can enter the PvE zones without any problem. But cant attack enemy players there if they're not flagged.

Shouldn't it be the same in a Open except that he CAN attack a enemy player? becouse it is OPEN RvR? therefore...

Open RvR = A high level can enter the PvE zones without any problem. And he can attack enemy players, becouse they are always flagged.

I would say that as Mythic designed the Chicken Mechanic to prevent Lv40's from ganking lv10s in RvR zones, they are going to carry the same them into any PvP encounter.

So in Open RvR, the Chicken Mechanic is probably going to work outside the RvR areas, just like it works inside the RvR area.

They developed the Chicken Mechanic to prevent Sandbagging. They even went so far as to Use a Chicken to symbolize how they feel about sand baggers.

[Chakar]

I would say that as Mythic designed the Chicken Mechanic to prevent Lv40's from ganking lv10s in RvR zones, they are going to carry the same them into any PvP encounter.

So in Open RvR, the Chicken Mechanic is probably going to work outside the RvR areas, just like it works inside the RvR area.

They developed the Chicken Mechanic to prevent Sandbagging. They even went so far as to Use a Chicken to symbolize how they feel about sand baggers.



I thought they put in the chicken mechanic into the RvR zones to prevent lvl 40's to not capture objectives in the RvR zones also. Ofcourse they put it in there to stop ganking on low levels, but it wouldn't be very nice if a group with 40's came and took the objectives and hold them.

But there aint any objectives in the PvE zones, only quests anybody can do. Why shouldn't 40's be able to go down there to do them, gather info for ToK? Find secret stuff they've missed?

And if you want to be safe and not be ganked once in a while... roll on a core server and you wont. If you want to have a thrill there, just go to your opposite faction and flag for PvP, I'm sure there will come people to slaughter you. But for us people who enjoy to never be safe, who dosn't care if we get ganked once in a while. Let us have a totaly Open RvR server without Chicken Mechanic in the PvE zones.

Just my thoughts...

[Gloovish]

Or you could just level up, go to a lower tier, turn into a chicken and enjoy the thrill of being hunted.;)

[Gemini]

Or you could just level up, go to a lower tier, turn into a chicken and enjoy the thrill of being hunted.;)

Now that should be a ToK achievement right there, X minutes survived as a chicken.

[Nerissa]

But guess what? Other people are different! In fact, some are even excited at the thought of never being safe and not being able to kill everyone single-handedly. They enjoy the added feel of danger and they could care less if they get ganked.

And once these players reach the lvl cap they usually gank themselves, because of lore reasons, boredom and, believe it or not, fun.
It's just what you do in videogames... You kill... for fun...



*Points at own sig*

Most people would rather be the ganker, rather than the gankee.

[Loekii]

[quote=Chakar;761018

And if you want to be safe and not be ganked once in a while... roll on a core server and you wont. If you want to have a thrill there, just go to your opposite faction and flag for PvP, I'm sure there will come people to slaughter you. But for us people who enjoy to never be safe, who dosn't care if we get ganked once in a while. Let us have a totaly Open RvR server without Chicken Mechanic in the PvE zones.

Just my thoughts...[/quote]

Speaking for myself, I am more the player that wants to play the game without PVE safe areas, where the RvR zones expand to conver the PvE zones -- which appears to be what the Open RvR Servers are designed for.

The FFA server is still under consideration (but doubtful) -- at least as of the last dev post about the server types a few months ago.

[Marcellius]

I've always been of the mind that anyone who says that they don't mind being ganked is only saying "I don't mind being ganked, because then I'll go get on my uber been-PVPing-since-beta main character and grief you for it."

One of the appeals of Warhammer Online to me is the idea of being able to participate in spontaneous, chaotic, sudden PVP without the risk of finding yourself on the wrong end of a Vengeful Gladiator at level 10. No "bluewalling," where someone can remain unflagged in a PvE area until they're sure you're not looking, then jumping you when you're at 10% HP. No bored max-levels nuking your quest NPCs from range, without you being able to do squat diddly about it because you're too low. No having to depend on the good graces of complete strangers to come scare off one guy who is destroying your play time. No having to walk to other areas to possibly get ganked on the way.

You have to develop a sense of tactics to survive, not cuddle under a desk and hope the big meanie will go away. For an invading force to roll over your territory because all conjoining territories have been taken and they're on the way to the castle, fine. But for one pitiful griefer to decide today is a great day to sit outside the level 12 fort and just lol at the noobs? Turn him into a chicken, I say.

[Fiss]

There are many games where the public and players governed the saftey of its own side. Back in Vanguard on Tharridon this was done with good guilds. On Varking this was done with people flocking to the PvP hotspots.

In other words, you relied on other players to provide security rather than PvE guards and "safe areas".

I think the main reason for the chicken system is to prevent abuse of the Tier PvP.

This will favor good guilds and good players that will have to offer support when another guild decides to raid a city.

[Slice]

I don't really care, but I'm against any sort of chickenification in enemy territory - it basically punishes you for wanting to explore. What if you stumble upon a neutral quest giver in a remote area of some enemy territory, but can't do the quest because you're a chicken? Where's the fairness in that :/

[ManiaCCC]

I don't really care, but I'm against any sort of chickenification in enemy territory - it basically punishes you for wanting to explore. What if you stumble upon a neutral quest giver in a remote area of some enemy territory, but can't do the quest because you're a chicken? Where's the fairness in that :/

I belive you chicken is applied only in lower tiers :) you can explore any teritory/area without being chicken if you will stay in your tier (or lower tier but your zone).

[Loekii]

I belive you chicken is applied only in lower tiers :) you can explore any teritory/area without being chicken if you will stay in your tier (or lower tier but your zone).

That is the way I understand it.

[Slice]

I belive you chicken is applied only in lower tiers :) you can explore any teritory/area without being chicken if you will stay in your tier (or lower tier but your zone).
You misunderstood what I meant. If I'm a level 40 Disciple and I want to unlock Tome pages in the High Elf level 20 zone, I should be able to do the Tome/special quests over there. On attack chickenification is fine, as long as it doesn't turn you into a chicken if a level 20 attacks you and you don't fight back.

[Utakata]

You misunderstood what I meant. If I'm a level 40 Disciple and I want to unlock Tome pages in the High Elf level 20 zone, I should be able to do the Tome/special quests over there. On attack chickenification is fine, as long as it doesn't turn you into a chicken if a level 20 attacks you and you don't fight back.

I agree with Slice.

I will want to go back to lower zones for multitudes of reasons and don't want to be a chicken especially if I have entirely positive intentions.

I suggest that if a lower tier attacks me first, I can fight back, but I don't get turned into a chicken unless I initiate the fight on a lower level or begin to cast on a lower level. Also chicken in RvR zones because you can't go near battlefield objectives or the keeps as a high level of course.

It's an absolutely perfect solution, you can't even deny that. Unless you want to kill level 10s as a level 40, but that's not fun at all. You'll have plenty opportunity to gank because you can fight tier 3's and tier 3 starts at like level 23 so there you go, 17 levels under you to .

[Chakar]

I agree with Slice.

I will want to go back to lower zones for multitudes of reasons and don't want to be a chicken especially if I have entirely positive intentions.

I suggest that if a lower tier attacks me first, I can fight back, but I don't get turned into a chicken unless I initiate the fight on a lower level or begin to cast on a lower level. Also chicken in RvR zones because you can't go near battlefield objectives or the keeps as a high level of course.

It's an absolutely perfect solution, you can't even deny that. Unless you want to kill level 10s as a level 40, but that's not fun at all. You'll have plenty opportunity to gank because you can fight tier 3's and tier 3 starts at like level 23 so there you go, 17 levels under you to .

tier 3 starts at lvl 23... didn't know that.

Once again I agree totaly with Utakata. This solution could also work just fine.

[Slice]

tier 3 starts at lvl 23... didn't know that.

Once again I agree totaly with Utakata. This solution could also work just fine.
He got mixed up. Tier 4 encompasses levels 23-40 (IE you can enter a T4 scenario if you're 23)

[Marcellius]

I'd be good with on-attack chickenification, no problem there at all. So long as, you know, the chicken buff lasts long enough for the enemy to not be able to get in multiple swings on a low-level character, and it should apply before the damage from an attack (because a level 40 can likely one-shot a level 12).

If exploration is a large factor in completionism or questing, it should still be an option even on RvR servers...your own RvR bracket should provide a challenge and danger, but you should never, even for a moment, be a threat to lower-level characters. Perhaps a modified "flagging" system could be used to work around the chicken mechanic to allow higher level players to fight back against zergs of lower-level characters, but balance would need to be performed to prevent abuse on both the high-level and low-level aspect.

In any case, I still think chicken mechanics would work very well to keep newbies safe from bored or otherwise abusive high-level players regardless of your server type.

[zer]

Ladies, ganking is part of RvR/PvP... Youll just have to live with it, and frankly pie is good:)

[Slice]

Ladies, ganking is part of RvR/PvP... Youll just have to live with it, and frankly pie is good:)
Ganking is fine. The OP's talking about griefing. Not a level 40 Sorc going to a T4 Order zone and attacking Level 38-40 Order players. He's talking about a level 40 Sorc going to a T1 Order zone and burning their towns down.

[zer]

Ah, that what I get for not reading the whole first post:)

[Slice]

Ah, that what I get for not reading the whole first post:)
Honest mistake. No harm, no foul. :)

[Utakata]

He got mixed up. Tier 4 encompasses levels 23-40 (IE you can enter a T4 scenario if you're 23)

Um, no. You're right I got mixed up, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this.

I looked it up again, and tier 3 actually starts at level 18. Meaning the earliest you can enter tier 3 is level 18 (for scenarios, you can enter tier 4 zones at level 1 if you want, but monsters in tier 3 zones will be at least level 18). And I don't know where you got tier 4, because there is no chicken mechanic in tier 3. I don't know when tier 4 starts maybe 23 maybe later I don't know, but it's a fact that you can gank anyone in tier 3 and 4 if you're level 40, which goes all the way down to level 18.

[Loekii]

because there is no chicken mechanic in tier 3. I don't know when tier 4 starts maybe 23 maybe later I don't know, but it's a fact that you can gank anyone in tier 3 and 4 if you're level 40, which goes all the way down to level 18.

Which brings the question of how easy is it for a Lvl 40 to 'gank' Tier 3 players. If it actually is a fight, instead of a 'one shot' action, then perhaps there might not be a need for a chicken mechanic.

In other words, if Tier 3 players can kill a tier 4 player, then there is not really a need for the mechanic.

[Utakata]

I'm telling you now, not speculating, that there is NOT CHICKEN MECHANIC FOR TIER 3.

Only tier 1 and 2 have chicken mechanics. This isn't a debate it's the truth. Sorry for sounding really stern.

[Slice]

Um, no. You're right I got mixed up, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this.

I looked it up again, and tier 3 actually starts at level 18. Meaning the earliest you can enter tier 3 is level 18 (for scenarios, you can enter tier 4 zones at level 1 if you want, but monsters in tier 3 zones will be at least level 18). And I don't know where you got tier 4, because there is no chicken mechanic in tier 3. I don't know when tier 4 starts maybe 23 maybe later I don't know, but it's a fact that you can gank anyone in tier 3 and 4 if you're level 40, which goes all the way down to level 18.
Utakata: What I was trying to say is that You can enter T4 scenarios at level 23, which is what you meant aswell, I assume. Colloquially, a T4 player is a level 35-40 player. A T3 player is a level 25-35 player, T2 is a level 15-25 player, and T1 is a level 1-15 player.

[Utakata]

Well either way, my first post just meant to say that you can find players to kill as low as level 18 without having to even risk chicken mechanic.

[Loekii]

I'm telling you now, not speculating, that there is NOT CHICKEN MECHANIC FOR TIER 3.

Only tier 1 and 2 have chicken mechanics. This isn't a debate it's the truth. Sorry for sounding really stern.

I am not arguing that, but rather talking about the reason why that maybe.

It sounds like Tier 3s and Tier 4s will be competitive (obviously requiring more Tier 3s to match the tier 4s, but atleast they are not 'invincible' like in other games).

[flipper]

Surely the best option would be to have higher level players become weaker in lower level zones?
This way high end players aren't denyed the right to visit content.

[Gloovish]

Surely the best option would be to have higher level players become weaker in lower level zones?
This way high end players aren't denyed the right to visit content.
This whole visiting content thing is exaggerated. In WoW, how many level 70's do you see doing Barens content?