Why are White Lions on the career list.

[Fruitpunch]

Were they announced, or are you guessing again Garth?

[Zeetchmen]

Either way, its a definate mabye 8-)

[Necrotoxin]

I found this interesting: http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/WARCinematicTrailerPartThree.php

If you go to that page and scroll down you will see:

Step Two: Storyboards

As you can see from the storyboards, we took another crack at the action, this time featuring a Dark Elf Sorceress (female character, check! Magic, check!) and High Elf White Lion (Cool warrior class, check!). All looked pretty good, except we went a bit too far by giving the White Lion a cool new ability – the Lion’s Roar - that we could not guarantee would be in the game (or guarantee Games Workshop would approve) So we scratched that battle and finally settled on the Witch Elf vs. Mage pairing.

[dutch_gamer]

Were they announced, or are you guessing again Garth?

Maybe because of the following threads:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21074

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21085

It is pretty much a given that the White Lion is the only candidate left for the melee DPS slot, knowing that the High Elves will get a pet class. also because they seem to have taken over the latest lore of the High Elves about the White Lion being able to form a bond with a lion. Since the signs are there, it is understandable the career was added to the career list of your avatar. It is almost in the same league as Shadow Warrior and Archmage always have been a given.

[Freax]

Well, Order is due for a pet career, and there is only 1 Order career left to be announced. And the only possibility for a HighElf pet career is obviously White Lions. I wouldnt give it a 100%, but the odds are in its favor.

[Foofmonger]

Its pretty much a 99% sure thing. It isn't like Garth is taking a big risk.

Theres still a possiblity that WL will not be in, but it is a very small possiblity.

[elthar]

I found this interesting: http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/WARCinematicTrailerPartThree.php

If you go to that page and scroll down you will see:

Step Two: Storyboards

As you can see from the storyboards, we took another crack at the action, this time featuring a Dark Elf Sorceress (female character, check! Magic, check!) and High Elf White Lion (Cool warrior class, check!). All looked pretty good, except we went a bit too far by giving the White Lion a cool new ability – the Lion’s Roar - that we could not guarantee would be in the game (or guarantee Games Workshop would approve) So we scratched that battle and finally settled on the Witch Elf vs. Mage pairing.

Dude thats just the making for the trailer that they did over a year ago and they have the slayer in it and not in the game that does not mean for sure that the white lion will be in game. But i'm puttin my money on the fact that the white lion is the one 90% sure.

[Grimald]

The answer is, because i asked check out the site idea section i asked for the career selection to now include white lions and shadow warriors.

Here's the link- http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21248

After i asked it came up.

[Avatar Of War]

I would have to agree with the others that the chances of the White lion being in the game are pretty high (at least 80%) .'

On the other hand.. I know people in these very forums who would have bet every thing they owned and everthing that everyone else owned, on the fact that the slayer was going to be a playable class in the game...


This is the first time I've seen the story boards for the movie, but they do seem to indicate that at least a year ago that the White Lion was a planned on class... Which at the very least increases the odds that they are still in by a significant amount

[Boulvae]

High Elves with axes, tell me thats not cool with a straight face. Seriously, not only are the "goody guy" masses gonna be swarming elves TO. Everyone whom never played Warhammer before will be looking at elves and sees one playayble class with an axe and he'd be going WTF cause it breaks the steraotype to a VERY noticable degree.

Thats a class that gives the Elves a bad assness that was never achieved before by the weedy Elves of stereotypes.

Plus it only makes sense balance wise...

[Estebar]

So, collecting together the reasons for the likeliness of the White Lion Melee DPS Class:

i) At some point Mythic was already considering them for the Melee DPS class - note the dual-wielding White Lion in the storyboard (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/images/WH_Movie_2006/elf-fight-sequence_storyboards.jpg) for the third revision of the WAR cinematic trailer. The storyboard was dropped because GW didn't approve of giving the White Lion the far-fetched "Lion's Roar" (mystical sonic assault) ability, so Mythic has decided to give the ability to a War Lion pet instead.

ii) In an interview, Mythic said that Order will get a pet class... WHA: Does the Alliance of Order have a pet based class?
Mythic: There is a pet based career for the High Elfs. ...and none of the Order classes so far have been a pet class (although personally, I think the Witch Hunter should've had a Warhound pet) so by deduction that would leave us with the High Elf Melee DPS class as the one with the pet.

iii) The White Lions have already been mentioned twice so far on the official site. The first occasion was here (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/zoneOverviews/ElfZone/ElfZoneOverview.php), when briefly describing Chrace it is said that... Here, the legendary White Lions of Chrace make their home. They are among the fiercest and most courageous warriors in all of Ulthuan, and will show no mercy to any Dark Elf invaders they meet on the field on battle. ...and when you're described as "among the fiercest and most courageous warriors in all of Ulthuan", you're pretty much a shoe-in as the High Elf Melee DPS class.

iv) The second occasion was in the most recent newsletter with a Zone Overview of Chrace, in which it is said that... For generations, the White Lions of Chrace have defended Ulthuan and the Phoenix Throne. Only the strongest and most skillful warriors and hunters of the kingdom earn membership in the White Lions. To prove his worth, each initiate must defeat in single combat one of the fierce creatures for whom the unit is named. Sometimes a bond forms between the lion and his master, and they accept one another as equals. For any who stand against these noble warriors of Chrace, it is a deadly combination. ...and that last part pretty much cinches the White Lion as a pet class with a War Lion as his pet.

[mongoose]

Just to clarify.......note the very specific REwording of that text from #4 where was accepted in the lore as always killing to something that will now allow the WL to be a pet class. :wink:

[CapnSquig-WHA]

Just to clarify.......note the very specific REwording of that text from #4 where was accepted in the lore as always killing to something that will now allow the WL to be a pet class.

But it's not a Mythic rewording, it is a GW rewording. Hence the new lion-pulled Chariot TableTop model.

Mythic was given advance access to the latest versions of all the TT stuff, so they saw the Chariot quite a long time ago.

So that bit of Lore will also hold for the TT game too, and is not a WAR/Mythic invention.

GW has a habit of retconning their Lore, so this is just another example :) .

[Avatar Of War]

I'm laughing on the inside, and on the outside...

I keep telling everyone not to get to excited about a class (that I really really really want) that has yet to be announced.

And I keep getting told reasons why its absolutely in. The new lore being the main reason.

CapnSquig, a moderator, and someone pretty familiar with the table top and the IP and the game.. has debunked that reason.

So could we all reign in counting and naming our chickens before they are hatched? Because if for some insane reason the White Lions are not in, there will be much crying and gnashing of teeth...

I still think they are going to be in (most likely) , but im not going to get my hopes up like people did for the slayers, there are still people crying about that.

[Grungas Ironnose]

So could we all reign in counting and naming our chickens before they are hatched? Because if for some insane reason the White Lions are not in, there will be much crying and gnashing of teeth...



...says the elf with the white lion career choice

[Estebar]

I'm laughing on the inside, and on the outside...

I keep telling everyone not to get to excited about a class (that I really really really want) that has yet to be announced.

And I keep getting told reasons why its absolutely in. The new lore being the main reason. None of my four, count them, FOUR reasons came from the new lore at all. They're based in four different phases of Mythic's High Elf development. All my evidence is founded in WAR.

[Avatar Of War]

...says the elf with the white lion career choice

Thats wishful thinking :D, plus I did state that will will probably get them.

On the other hand stating that we will most certainly have White Lions *Glares at Mongoose, points to the search feature and the word Slayers* is getting your expectations up too high..
I still have nightmares about the forums when people found out for certain that slayers were not in, some people thought it was a joke, and there are still people hoping that one of the dwarf classes will suddenly be changed to slayers. :(

And I have not named my imaginary White Lion yet...but I have stated before Wayne Brady is a good possiblity :p "Does Wayne Brady have to choke a Druchii?"


Plus me having the White Lion as a career is on par with Mongooses "I'm really a skaven' guild :skaven:"... it does not matter if the class/race we want is not been implemented in the game... We can always dream!:rolleyes:

Estebar: I did not mention any particular names in my above post, there are other threads about this matter, those are the people I am refering to.

[Boulvae]

I was one of the very few that was cynical about the slayers being in, let alone giving them justice as a playable class...

I mean with ALL those SHAMED dwarves running around their cities let alone their capital like nothing ever happened is alien to me as much as to the dwarves of living in the city ALSO being full of shame for being surrounded by dwarves that dare show their faces so non-chalantly bringing even MORE shame to their former race.

Slayers is just one of those things in an MMO that's cool to be in but eventually withers and dulls when it is allowed to be played.

But however, I shall be cynical about the White Lions as well but will be down right mad if they make up a class or downsize an EXTREMELY POWERFUL class.

[shotgunbadger]

Ok this is nothing like Slayers.

Slayers would have broke lore to have even two wandering the cities and talking to NPCs and....rezzing. Like above said, cool, but not doable.

White Lions, however, thanks to new lore, would fit.

Honestly, they took a bigger 'risk' when the put up Shadow Warrior way before it was announced, White Lions are about 99% in already.

[Fusko]

And also about the Slayers, one of the reasons they coulnd't put them in was because of them being half-naked and all. Gear would have been much harder for them to do, but no so for the White Lions. ;)

[mongoose]

On the other hand stating that we will most certainly have White Lions *Glares at Mongoose, points to the search feature and the word Slayers* is getting your expectations up too high..

Mind showing me where I have ever said, "most certainly"? I believe the closest I have come to your version of the truth is saying, "I dont know about you but that just SCREAMS pet to me. I would say that is about as close to confirmation we can possibly get without them actually coming right out and say it"

That most certainly dosent mean it WILL happen so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from putting words into my mouth (especially when I never said them ;))

I made a similar list to Estebars somewhere else but the fact is we both presented a very strong case in favor of White Lions being in, the smoking gun if you will, but that dosent mean we actually saw the defendant pull the proverbial trigger so we dont KNOW with 100% certainty but the case for our side is overwhelmingly strong.

But it's not a Mythic rewording, it is a GW rewording. Hence the new lion-pulled Chariot TableTop model.

Mythic was given advance access to the latest versions of all the TT stuff, so they saw the Chariot quite a long time ago.

So that bit of Lore will also hold for the TT game too, and is not a WAR/Mythic invention.

GW has a habit of retconning their Lore, so this is just another example :) .

Well since I have never seen the new HE army book I dont know what it says EXACTLY.

So I guess we need someone with the 7th ed to tell us just how close the wording in the zone overview is to the new army book.

Also does it list a White Lion as being able to buy a lion as an option?

I would be greatly interested in the answers to these two questions because it would definitely show weather or not Mythic took the concept and changed it to make a melee pet class for WAR.

[Avatar Of War]

[/color]

Mind showing me where I have ever said, "most certainly"? I believe the closest I have come to your version of the truth is saying, "I dont know about you but that just SCREAMS pet to me. I would say that is about as close to confirmation we can possibly get without them actually coming right out and say it"

That most certainly dosent mean it WILL happen so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from putting words into my mouth (especially when I never said them ;))

I made a similar list to Estebars somewhere else but the fact is we both presented a very strong case in favor of White Lions being in, the smoking gun if you will, but that dosent mean we actually saw the defendant pull the proverbial trigger so we dont KNOW with 100% certainty but the case for our side is overwhelmingly strong.



Well since I have never seen the new HE army book I dont know what it says EXACTLY.

So I guess we need someone with the 7th ed to tell us just how close the wording in the zone overview is to the new army book.

Also does it list a White Lion as being able to buy a lion as an option?

I would be greatly interested in the answers to these two questions because it would definitely show weather or not Mythic took the concept and changed it to make a melee pet class for WAR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar Of War http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/images/WHA/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=543772#post543772)
Although it seems White lions are a 'lock'.. I would not be counting our chickens just yet.. there is a good chance Mythic my have another class in mind or make up a class..

They have done it before, and there was much crying and gnashing of teeth when they did. Lets not get our hopes up too high.

This seems like the DE discussion :rolleyes:

The problem though is there isnt ANY other real option. There is no other currect HE unit that matches not only has an animal reference but is also a melee type unit.

Sure they could just make it up outta thin air but why in the hell would you do that with the cool WLs staring them in the face?

Other things to consider:

1) There was a White Lion in the original trailer script meaning Mythic obviously thinks WLs are both cool and worthy to be in WAR.

2) The 7th Ed Army book has definitely had a change of perspective when it comes to lions.

3) The zone overview of Chrace shows a decided lore change by stating WLs and lions can sometimes form a bond. Why on EARTH would they even feel the need to make such a clear reference if it was only going ot be for NPC purposes? It is completely unnecessary and just makes the NPCs needlessly complicated.


The evidence is overwhelming. If I was on the WL jury I would see no option other than to convict Mythic of WL inclusion in WAR! :grin: /slams gavel......verdict rendered!


Uhmmm it that does not scream "We are most certainly getting White lions . then i dont know what does.

And I did not quote you in my previous passage word for word. I merely summed up your conclusioin.. aka your vedict.

In your own statement (not mine) you left no room that the White Lions would be left outm you went so far as to try to debunk my post that their was a chance that the white lions would not be in the game....

So you went out of your way to quote someone who just said not to get the hopes to high about a class, and then gave reasons why you thougthe the class was certain to be in and then gave a rendered VERDICT, that said class would be in, but you never stated you were certain they were in?


ERRR? Huh? Jigga what? What Jigga who?

Now I could be wrong, but when someone goes out of the way to rip apart someons stance that there has been precident by Mythic for not putting in a class that others thought was for certain, and then saying that the floor is basically closed for further argument (not your words but verdict rendered is pretty damn final in my opinion.

You never left any wiggle room in that post for even that option that White lions were not in, and on top of that the whole post you wrote was specifically to set me straight on my OPINION that there was a SMALL chance that they might not be in, I even gave an example of a similar situation.


You can't have your cake and eat it too:
You made yourself judge jury and executioner and rendered your verdict and never said word one about there being a chance the white lions were not in... Why Else would you go to those extremes (even so far as to quote me saying they might not be in the game?"

I should not have to quote you word for word to make my point about what you said. But hey since you asked: here you go, Your statement. To me that says that you are sure that the white lions are in... Unless you would now like to appeal your own verdict?

[mongoose]

Uhmmm it that does not scream "We are most certainly getting White lions . then i dont know what does.

And I did not quote you in my previous passage word for word. I merely summed up your conclusioin.. aka your vedict

Im sorry you didnt like my little analogy but thats all it was and not meant to represent that it WILL happen. All I was showing was IF this was a court of law, the supporting evidence far outweighs the evidence to the contrary and the judge would rule in favor of WLs being in. BUT this is however not a court of law and merely a forum of people speculating. Mythic can still do whatever they please.


In your own statement (not mine) you left no room that the White Lions would be left outm you went so far as to try to debunk my post that their was a chance that the white lions would not be in the game....
Look you are taking this WAY too personally. I was responding to the fact that you said (and I quote), "there is a good chance Mythic my have another class in mind or make up a class."

a good chance? :rolleyes: I have never denied there was a chance but good?

There cant be both a high probability of the White Lions being in AND there also being a good chance of Mythic not including them. They are conflicting statements and both cant be true.

So I and Estebar showed that based on hints/statements Mythic has given us, its much more likely they will have White Lions in WAR than to either make up something or use another unit.


Now I could be wrong, but when someone goes out of the way to rip apart someons stance that there has been precident by Mythic for not putting in a class that others thought was for certain, and then saying that the floor is basically closed for further argument (not your words but verdict rendered is pretty damn final in my opinion.

You never left any wiggle room in that post for even that option that White lions were not in, and on top of that the whole post you wrote was specifically to set me straight on my OPINION that there was a SMALL chance that they might not be in, I even gave an example of a similar situation.
Its called a rebuttal to a point of debate. You said something I disagreed with and I then returned my opinion of why I disagreed with it backed up by a number of supporting statements as to why I believe you were incorrect. Now if you can disprove those statements please go right ahead because thats how it works. ;)

In fact your best chance to do just that is by getting the information out of the 7th ed army book that I requested.

If the info out of the book reads just like the zone overview AND there is an option for WLs buying a lion then I agree those points I posted dont carry nearly the weight they would if Mythic had made changes specifically for WAR.


CapnSquig, a moderator, and someone pretty familiar with the table top and the IP and the game.. has debunked that reason.
Our Squig Capn is just as entitled to his opinion as anyone else on these forums but I dont think that just because he is a Mod that automatically gives his opinion added weight over anyone else here with a good grasp of the TT an IP.

The only thing that will prove he is correct will be the answer to the two questions I asked and that Im genuinely interested in finding out about becasue I dont have access to the new book.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

*Pulls out the 7th edition High Elf book, turns to the White Lion Chariot page*


Of the wild beasts that prowl the realm of Chrace, the white lions from which the famed Chracian regiments take their name are the best known. These lions are deadly hunting cats that stand as tall at the shoulder as a horse. Each white lion is capable of rending a foe limb from limb and a swipe of their claws is enough to break a man's neck.

There are accounts of prides of white lions ravaging convoys travelling through the region and even attacking isolated villages should they become hungry enough. A great many songs, poems and tales within Chrace warn of straying too close to a white lion.

It is because of the incredible danger that the white lions that the Chracian hunters are forced to hunt them with axe, spear and bow through the perilous forests of their homeland. Such encounters between the Elven hunters and the white lions all too often go against the High Elves, for such is the sheer savagery of the lions that only the very greatest hunters can expect to triumph.

Not all white lions discovered by Chracian Hunters are killed out of hand, however, for often lion cubs or adolescents are discovered and the High Elves take no joy in needless slaughter. These cubs would doubtless become savage and deadly beasts if they were left in the wild, but with expert care the young white lions are raised to become as loyal as a Griffon. Reared with tenderness normally reserved for Elven steeds or other noble creatures, these 'tame' white lions swiftly form a bond with the Chracian hunters that foster them. Thereafter these cubs are known as War Lions, for they make formidable weapons upon the battlefield.

When the regiments of Chrace go to war they are often accompanied by powerful War Lions, that draw the fame Lion Chariots. Sturdy war engines made in the traditions of the legendary chariots of Tiranioc, the Lion Chariots are fashioned from the same smooth white wood. These chariots are the finest expression of the Elven artisan's craft. Unlike the swift and nimble Tiranoc Charopts though, the Chariots of Chrace are drawn by a pair of ferocious War Lions, proud beasts whose feline grace and elegantly plaited manes belie their awesome power.

In contrast to the Tiranoc war charios that sweep across the battlefield carefully picking at their foe, the Lion Chariot of Chrace is a brutal weapon of destruction. Proceeded by savage roars that shake the enemy to their very core, the Lion Chariots plough through skirmishers and crash fearlessly into the ranks of enemy regiments. The paired War Lions tear into their foe with fang and claw, bearing mounted warriors to the ground and creating a pandemonium within tightly packed infantry formations. The crew fight from the chariot platform supporting the raging lions with deft blows from their axes, cleaving heads and shoulders with every strike. Such daring charges have become the hallmark of the Lion Chariots, earning them a reputation as courageous linebreakers capable of smashing even the most determined shieldwall.


:rolleyes:Should be it. *Puts head back in place*

[mongoose]

Wow, thanks Konrad for the lengthy transcription! :cool:

I dont mean to sound ungrateful but is there any new information about the White Lions themselves? Is there some sort of allowance for a pet option or does the book still state they only kill the lion and take their pelt? :confused:

If the only real difference is indeed the Chariot description, that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Mythic deliberately changed the wording and only strengthens the possibility of a pet using White Lion.

Book:
Not all white lions discovered by Chracian Hunters are killed out of hand, however, for often lion cubs or adolescents are discovered and the High Elves take no joy in needless slaughter. These cubs would doubtless become savage and deadly beasts if they were left in the wild, but with expert care the young white lions are raised to become as loyal as a Griffon. Reared with tenderness normally reserved for Elven steeds or other noble creatures, these 'tame' white lions swiftly form a bond with the Chracian hunters that foster them. Thereafter these cubs are known as War Lions, for they make formidable weapons upon the battlefield.

WAR:
For generations, the White Lions of Chrace have defended Ulthuan and the Phoenix Throne. Only the strongest and most skillful warriors and hunters of the kingdom earn membership in the White Lions. To prove his worth, each initiate must defeat in single combat one of the fierce creatures for whom the unit is named. Sometimes a bond forms between the lion and his master, and they accept one another as equals. For any who stand against these noble warriors of Chrace, it is a deadly combination.


So in the TT they raise young lions with love while in WAR they form a bond of mutual respect through combat. Interesting AND different. ;)

[Konrad Siegesruf]

So in the TT they raise young lions with love while in WAR they form a bond of mutual respect through combat. Interesting AND different. ;)

The Chrace zone description mentioned a bond formed between the lion and it's master, i doubt the lion's opponent is it's master already. I understood it that the master formed a bond between her/him and one of the lions they are raising. But meh, pure speculation :cool:.

[Estebar]

*Glares at Mongoose, points to the search feature and the word Slayers* Thought I'd just bring this up from the December 2007 Grab Bag (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/community/grabBag/grabBag_december.php): Q: Tell us about slayers.

A: I have been really quiet on this topic, because we have been discussing it around here for months. We’ve got several options, ranging from the purely cosmetic to the other extreme.

We have decided once and for all to reject the purely cosmetic approach. We want to integrate the slayer status as part of an advanced system, along with such systems for the other armies, as part of a future expansion.

I know this will disappoint some of you, and I understand why, but we honestly believe that a purely cosmetic slayer option would ultimately be nothing but a disappointment. So, let's get down to it. The reasoning behind the "We're definitely getting Slayers" mentality came from the fact that:

i) The Slayers are one of the most iconic and popular units in the Warhammer Dwarf army.
ii) Purely from a functional point of view, they would've made a good melee dps class.
iii) They were in the trailer.

From Mythic's point of view, the Slayer was included because:

i) They're incredibly iconic.
ii) A short, unarmoured, insane little dual-wielding dwarf contrasts nicely in a fight with a huge, thickly-armoured, big-bully sword & board Black Orc. (Evidence comes from here (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/WARCinematicTrailerPartTwo.php): This sequence features two of the most iconic characters in the Warhammer universe - the Dwarf Slayer, with his shocking orange mohawk, and the heavily-armored Black Orc. Their contrast in size makes for a remarkable battle but as every Warhammer fan knows, the solid little Dwarf can more than hold his own against the massive Orc.
iii) They were most probably going to be implemented cosmetically, purely for their unique look (as quoted above).

We all know there were complications in including Slayers from the start. This mostly came from the fact that Slayers are looking to DIE. There were threads on perma-death, and where Slayers should stand on the subject, and if Slayers should be at risk of perma-death while everyone else got off, and how they'd find protection despite willingly wearing no armour, and although people got excited about them, there was a general feeling of uneasiness about their inclusion. Either their lore would have to be dissolved, or they'd have to be given special circumstances in which players would be at risk of losing them to a single death. Either way, it didn't sit right.

We don't have those same problems with White Lions. They're not looking to die. They wear armour. A recent addition in GW lore has given them a fresh game mechanic. They've got it all working for them. Where is this feeling of uneasiness about their inclusion? Yes, they're about as iconic for High Elves as Slayers were for Dwarfs but they lack the complications which the Slayers obviously had, so I don't think we can put them in the same boat at all.

Just thought I'd clear that up a bit...

[Boulvae]

So in the TT they raise young lions with love while in WAR they form a bond of mutual respect through combat. Interesting AND different.

True their both different, but it's something Mythic put in their with some sort of approval from GW. But the difference of bond making is significant but it IS the fact that bonds are made that Mythic didn't make up, just how it's done and reasons behinde it.

Sides they're seperate timelines so their should be expected little detail differences within the lore, most of it being to suit the whole MMORPG thing and an archetype or two.

It still has to be warhammery in the end.

[Avatar Of War]

Mongoose.

Your final words in that statement maybe have been just an 'example' but there was a defininte tone of finality espesially when you say words like "verdict rendered'.

Just using myself as an example, your use of wording put your conclusion as being locked. Lets look at the word verdict shall we?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/verdict

Lets specifically look at the second part of the definition:
2)judgment, deciscion: Verdict of critics (Dictionary.com)
2) an expressed conclusion, a judgment of opinion: Verdict of history(American heritage Dictionary)

Now come on man, are you saying it was unreasonable for me to take your post as your defining opinion about the matter? When you basically stated at the very end of your post that you had rendered a verdict?

You can't retcon what you said merely because thats not want you meant to impart.
What you said was that the White Lions were in. You rendered a judgment, and expressed a conclusion.
I'm sorry not what you meant but you cant say I am wrong for actually reading your post and making a reasonable assumption about your position, based on your own wording.

And just for fun lets look up the word debate shall we?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Debate

Where did I ever say the would not be in? I just said there was a chance they would not be in.
And I gave an example of Slayers. I did not say there was not good reasons for them not to be in, I said "people thought they were a 'lock'" which they did, and you and Estobar still don't seem to get what I was saying.

I merely stated people were sure Slayers were in. They did not get in. Thats all I said. nothing more.

I never said White Lions were not in, I said there was a 'good chance' they were not in. Now you never bothered to ask me what I considered a good chance... as i stated above I think there is an 80-90% chance of them being in the game.

To me anything above 10% is a good chance, I have dealt with chronic illness and cancer since birth and have managed to beat odds in that range repeatedly... So to me there is a definite chance they wont be in... again I want them in, but I'm not going to act like they are in already.

So there was nothing to debate, unless of course you are certain that WL are in, which you just stated you never said or meant to infer.

Now lets look up the word rebuttal shall we?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rebuttal

Since there was nothing to debate. what the hell were you rebutting? My idea of what a good chance is?

Come on man... If there is a ten percent chance of them not getting in that a 1/10 chance, which in my OPINION is a pretty good chance and if there is a 20 percent chance that 1/5. either way thats odds i personally would not bet on.


And yes i am taking it a bit personally. You tried to go point by point rebutting my statement of a possiblity however small it is, that they wont be in the game. If you had actually asked me what I thought a good chance was, there would probably been nothing for you to respond to.

I think rap is good. Please go ahead and tell me I am wrong for thinking its good.. which is what you did.

I never once stated in any defining way if we were getting the White Lions one way or another. But you felt it nessicary to debate what I said..

You on the other hand did, whether you meant to or not. Yet now your trying to state thats not what you meant to do?

We have a new winna of teh interweb..

Sir Mongoose king of the Retcons!!

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Mongoose.

Your final words in that statement maybe have been just an 'example' but there was a defininte tone of finality espesially when you say words like "verdict rendered'.

Just using myself as an example, your use of wording put your conclusion as being locked. Lets look at the word verdict shall we?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/verdict

Lets specifically look at the second part of the definition:
2)judgment, deciscion: Verdict of critics (Dictionary.com)
2) an expressed conclusion, a judgment of opinion: Verdict of history(American heritage Dictionary)

Now come on man, are you saying it was unreasonable for me to take your post as your defining opinion about the matter? When you basically stated at the very end of your post that you had rendered a verdict?

You can't retcon what you said merely because thats not want you meant to impart.
What you said was that the White Lions were in. You rendered a judgment, and expressed a conclusion.
I'm sorry not what you meant but you cant say I am wrong for actually reading your post and making a reasonable assumption about your position, based on your own wording.

And just for fun lets look up the word debate shall we?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Debate

Where did I ever say the would not be in? I just said there was a chance they would not be in.
And I gave an example of Slayers. I did not say there was not good reasons for them not to be in, I said "people thought they were a 'lock'" which they did, and you and Estobar still don't seem to get what I was saying.

I merely stated people were sure Slayers were in. They did not get in. Thats all I said. nothing more.

I never said White Lions were not in, I said there was a 'good chance' they were not in. Now you never bothered to ask me what I considered a good chance... as i stated above I think there is an 80-90% chance of them being in the game.

To me anything above 10% is a good chance, I have dealt with chronic illness and cancer since birth and have managed to beat odds in that range repeatedly... So to me there is a definite chance they wont be in... again I want them in, but I'm not going to act like they are in already.

So there was nothing to debate, unless of course you are certain that WL are in, which you just stated you never said or meant to infer.

Now lets look up the word rebuttal shall we?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rebuttal

Since there was nothing to debate. what the hell were you rebutting? My idea of what a good chance is?

Come on man... If there is a ten percent chance of them not getting in that a 1/10 chance, which in my OPINION is a pretty good chance and if there is a 20 percent chance that 1/5. either way thats odds i personally would not bet on.


And yes i am taking it a bit personally. You tried to go point by point rebutting my statement of a possiblity however small it is, that they wont be in the game. If you had actually asked me what I thought a good chance was, there would probably been nothing for you to respond to.

I think rap is good. Please go ahead and tell me I am wrong for thinking its good.. which is what you did.

I never once stated in any defining way if we were getting the White Lions one way or another. But you felt it nessicary to debate what I said..

You on the other hand did, whether you meant to or not. Yet now your trying to state thats not what you meant to do?

We have a new winna of teh interweb..

Sir Mongoose king of the Retcons!!

Wow, take it easy friend:o
He was just saying the chance for a white lion is 99% in, because there truly is no other option for a melee-dps class.
It's just a shoe-in.

Oh, and all those different colors are quite irritating:mad:

[mongoose]

To add to Estebars Slayer info.....

Im also fairly sure Slayers WERE in the game at one point but Mythic saw the problems with them very quickly and pulled the plug on them.

If you go back to the early SS you will see Slayers included (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=24&c=2)in some of the first archetype groupings. Mythic wouldnt have done that or showed us other SS featuring a Slayer as a PC (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=23&c=2) if they werent in game (regardless of how briefly). I mean why in the last SS would they show us NPCs attacking a troll?

Lets not forget the Orc Shaman (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=82&c=2)that were ALSO briefly in game but again Mythic pulled the plug on them.

So I see a decided difference between Slayers (Orc Shamans) and White Lions.


As to all the personal pokes and condescending tone.........you are really going off the deep end there Avatar but I dont see any reason to retaliate, I can be a big Skaven about it all :cool:

no really <sniff> its........../wipes away tears..........ok..........queek :cry:

/skulks back down into tunnels :rolleyes: :mrgreen:

[checkthis5000]

Well, Order is due for a pet career, and there is only 1 Order career left to be announced. And the only possibility for a HighElf pet career is obviously White Lions. I wouldnt give it a 100%, but the odds are in its favor.

I'd give it 99% since they added that little tidbit to the existing lore of "every once in a while the white lion and the high elf warrior form a bond" which I've never seen anywhere else except there.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

Where do people get the idea from that the bond between the lion and it's master is formed when they fight against each other? The Chrace zone description doesn't even point that they do it against each other, only that a bond is formed in one way or the other, but it's not specified.

[Estebar]

Where do people get the idea from that the bond between the lion and it's master is formed when they fight against each other? The Chrace zone description doesn't even point that they do it against each other, only that a bond is formed in one way or the other, but it's not specified. Well, how else are a White Lion trainee and a Chracian mountain lion gonna meet each other? Do the lions come down from the mountain wilderness for an Elves vs. Lions dominos tournament every few months or something?

[Avatar Of War]

Err.. just reread my earlier post...

I did go overboard just a bit..:oops:

But you guys poked the hungry bear with a stick made of meat...:twisted::skull:
(And the colors stay, easier for me to read, just wont use so many)

White Lions as I have stated before, seem to be the most logical choice for getting into the game.

I am still going to hedge my bets and not count on it.
While there is more in favor of the White Lions. The Slayers also looked like a certainty tat one point..

And I had joined the forums back then and had bet all those who were sure the slayers were 99% in, on just the possibility , that they would not be in I would be a very rich man right now...

And you can state all the reasons in the world why the tigers are in, I wont be certain that they are in till I see Paul gyrating about and announcing the White Tiger class.

I hope they get in though.:D

[Hayden]

Well, how else are a White Lion trainee and a Chracian mountain lion gonna meet each other? Do the lions come down from the mountain wilderness for an Elves vs. Lions dominos tournament every few months or something?
The White Lions live in Chrace and are woodsmen, I'm betting that they run into them quite often and considering the millions of different circumstances that they could meet, I'm sure a bond could form.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

I don't think you guys get what i mean, the Chrace zone description doesn't specify how the bond is formed, but it looks easy to get confused as it's right after a sentence with the elves fighting(Or sumthin' like that).
The bond can be formed between those lions who are found as cubs or adolescents and raised, and the White Lions raising and training them. It's even written in the 7th edition book that these now 'tame' lions swiftly form a bond with the Chracian hunters(AKA the White Lions in some cases) that foster them.
Konrad over and out. :cool:

[mongoose]

I don't think you guys get what i mean, the Chrace zone description doesn't specify how the bond is formed, but it looks easy to get confused as it's right after a sentence with the elves fighting(Or sumthin' like that).
The bond can be formed between those lions who are found as cubs or adolescents and raised, and the White Lions raising and training them. It's even written in the 7th edition book that these now 'tame' lions swiftly form a bond with the Chracian hunters(AKA the White Lions in some cases) that foster them.
Konrad over and out. :cool:

Yes we get what you mean but you seem to be missing our point which is that Mythic/GW have very specifically changed the wording from the book.

This is the exact wording from the zone overview:

For generations, the White Lions of Chrace have defended Ulthuan and the Phoenix Throne. Only the strongest and most skillful warriors and hunters of the kingdom earn membership in the White Lions. To prove his worth, each initiate must defeat in single combat one of the fierce creatures for whom the unit is named. Sometimes a bond forms between the lion and his master, and they accept one another as equals. For any who stand against these noble warriors of Chrace, it is a deadly combination.

The red text is the important part and there really isnt much room for interpretation. The Warrior goes and fights a lion and sometimes a bond is formed. i.e. During the battle both gain a mutual respect for one another and stop before one is killed. The WLs that return with a lion in tow are, I would assume, fairly rare which makes them more special.

There is zero mention of young hand reared lions. This dosent contradict the 7th ed either because they can still find and raise cubs for use as chariot pullers but the WL with a lion pet is something apart from that.

I would think if they had meant it to be just like the 7th ed TT rules they would have used the same wording......but they didnt. They could have but instead changed it so that WLs in WAR could start will full sized lion pets and thats the whole point.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

Yes we get what you mean but you seem to be missing our point which is that Mythic/GW have very specifically changed the wording from the book.

This is the exact wording from the zone overview:

For generations, the White Lions of Chrace have defended Ulthuan and the Phoenix Throne. Only the strongest and most skillful warriors and hunters of the kingdom earn membership in the White Lions. To prove his worth, each initiate must defeat in single combat one of the fierce creatures for whom the unit is named. Sometimes a bond forms between the lion and his master, and they accept one another as equals. For any who stand against these noble warriors of Chrace, it is a deadly combination.

The red text is the important part and there really isnt much room for interpretation. The Warrior goes and fights a lion and sometimes a bond is formed. i.e. During the battle both gain a mutual respect for one another and stop before one is killed. The WLs that return with a lion in tow are, I would assume, fairly rare which makes them more special.

There is zero mention of young hand reared lions. This dosent contradict the 7th ed either because they can still find and raise cubs for use as chariot pullers but the WL with a lion pet is something apart from that.

I would think if they had meant it to be just like the 7th ed TT rules they would have used the same wording......but they didnt. They could have but instead changed it so that WLs in WAR could start will full sized lion pets and thats the whole point.

It doesn't actually state it's in the combat that the bond sometimes is formed, it only seems to be like that because it's right after the text where it states they must defeat one of the lions. For me it still means that a bond between the White Lions raising them and the lions. Though i could be wrong, i still stubbornly stand by my beliefs.

[mongoose]

It doesn't actually state it's in the combat that the bond sometimes is formed, it only seems to be like that because it's right after the text where it states they must defeat one of the lions. For me it still means that a bond between the White Lions raising them and the lions. Though i could be wrong, i still stubbornly stand by my beliefs.

Its implied so you dont have to keep repeating the same things over and over again. I agree the wording could have been a bit less clunky but the only way I could see what you say as true is if the people who typed up that paragraph missed an entire sentence....which I really doubt.

[Dastion]

Lets not get another white lion thread locked guys. Don't be personal.

Anyhow, I agree that Slayers aren't really a good comparison to WLs. However, I do think that their origional intent was to have them, but like the White Lion in the video trailer, it just didn't fit the IP. (The SLayer in the trailer fit IP fine, so it made it through).

Now, had Mythic released some sort of story or info about dwarves that heavily insinuated that Slayers would be accepted by Dwarven society, are less death prone (i.e. would click *accept* to a rez :p ), ect. THEN it would be the same situation. However, since Mythic made no such attempts to make Slayers fit into the IP for the Dwarf melee DPS career and yet HAS released info which allows WLs to fit into the HE Melee DPS + Pet career (the only HE slot remaining), then it makes it an entirely different "animal".

Edit: Also, I agree that the storyline with the WL and Lion bonding COULD refer to them raising an animal and forming a bond. It sounds like it would be in reference to them having fought and killed one of the animals so therefore they could more easily form such a bond with a cub. However, the way it is written definitely implies the bond is created with the lion you fight, since the same paragraph also never says anything about killing the lion, simply "defeating". If whoever wrote that means it in a different way then they left out a very important sentence or two.

[Avatar Of War]

Yes we get what you mean but you seem to be missing our point which is that Mythic/GW have very specifically changed the wording from the book.


As far as i can tell Mythic has changed almost all the fluff a bit to fit their universe, just because something was changed by Mythic does not necessarily imply it has significance or means something profound.

Even their descriptions of some of the Leaders and their contributions to War has been changed somwhat.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.- Sigmund Fruad

[Hive]

Slightly off topic, but is anyone else a little disappointed by the lore change? In the old version an Elf had to do something completely bad to prove his worth and gain acceptance into an elite regiment-- track down and kill one of the worlds deadliest predators by himself. Now they can find a cub and train it... just seems like a bit of a let down to me. I wonder if the popularity of pet classes in different MMO's lead to this change.

[mongoose]

As far as i can tell Mythic has changed almost all the fluff a bit to fit their universe, just because something was changed by Mythic does not necessarily imply it has significance or means something profound.

Even their descriptions of some of the Leaders and their contributions to War has been changed somwhat.


It really comes down to what you mean by "a bit" because overall Im not seeing a lot of changes.

Slightly off topic, but is anyone else a little disappointed by the lore change? In the old version an Elf had to do something completely bad to prove his worth and gain acceptance into an elite regiment-- track down and kill one of the worlds deadliest predators by himself. Now they can find a cub and train it... just seems like a bit of a let down to me. I wonder if the popularity of pet classes in different MMO's lead to this change.

Well the problem is if Mythic really wanted to have a pet class on the Order side the choices are severely limited. It seems most of the units that could be considered pet users are all on the Destruction side. This even extends to future armies because neither Lizards, Bretonnians, or Wood Elves have anything that could be classified as a pet user.

So of the three, High Elves are the only army with any pet like references at all.

When someone proposed the idea of having an Oder pet class well over a year ago I was one of the very first people to propose changing the WL story to allow them a lion pet. Everyone thought it was just a horrible idea too :rolleyes:

[CapnSquig-WHA]

In the old version an Elf had to do something completely bad to prove his worth and gain acceptance into an elite regiment

Um, they still have to?

Wild Adult white lions are still very much of a menace to the countryside, so they are still hunted and killed by a prospective White Lion. Hence, White Lions still get to wear the White Lion cloak.

But as it happens, they often find baby lions and do not kill them. Raised by Elves, the lions are no longer a menace. There are still plenty in the wild though.

So to me, the only real change here is the inclusion of the lion cubs.

[Hive]

Um, they still have to?

Wild Adult white lions are still very much of a menace to the countryside, so they are still hunted and killed by a prospective White Lion. Hence, White Lions still get to wear the White Lion cloak.

But as it happens, they often find baby lions and do not kill them. Raised by Elves, the lions are no longer a menace. There are still plenty in the wild though.

So to me, the only real change here is the inclusion of the lion cubs.

To me it takes away some of the mystique... you never hear of people raising wolverines or badgers as pets, and those little suckers are vicious. I guess I prefer my alpha-predators to be six kinds of nasty from birth.

[RedAries]

It doesn't actually state it's in the combat that the bond sometimes is formed, it only seems to be like that because it's right after the text where it states they must defeat one of the lions. For me it still means that a bond between the White Lions raising them and the lions. Though i could be wrong, i still stubbornly stand by my beliefs.

Because they are in the same paragraph, they are part of the same thought. It is possible that whoever wrote the article erroneously forgot to put in a paragraph break at that point, but the fact remains that it is all one paragraph. The way it is written, the bond is formed as a result of the lion being defeated in combat (it acknowledges that the elf is stronger.)

That's just the way the english language works (and most languages, for that matter, that use paragraphs.) It does deviate from the 7th ed book, and it is possible that there should be a paragraph break between the two sentances, but as it is now it is now that's the way it reads.

[Vidrak]

Maybe because of the following threads:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21074

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21085

It is pretty much a given that the White Lion is the only candidate left for the melee DPS slot, knowing that the High Elves will get a pet class. also because they seem to have taken over the latest lore of the High Elves about the White Lion being able to form a bond with a lion. Since the signs are there, it is understandable the career was added to the career list of your avatar. It is almost in the same league as Shadow Warrior and Archmage always have been a given.
I guess I have not played Warhammer in too long :) But White Lions were never a pet class. They are just units with large axes, they are the kings body guard. Not a pet class ...

Here is the description right off the Games Workshop site:
White Lions of Chrace

The White Lions are the personal guard of the Phoenix King. They form a number of substantial regiments that protect the King's palace in peacetime and accompany him in time of war. Traditionally the White Lions are recruited from the rugged land of Chrace, a perilous realm whose inhabitants are great woodsmen and fierce warriors. Those woodsman of Chrace who prove themselves worthy to become a member of the King's elite bodyguard are expert warriors, who fight with long-handled axes. Shoulder to shoulder with their comrades, White Lions are capable of weathering the deadliest assaults before retaliating with swift, crushing blows.

White Lion regiments are often despatched to join the armies of Ulthuan during times of particular danger, tasked with protecting High Elf generals, mages or bolstering the overall strength of the army. White Lions are renowned for their unflinching courage in the face of overwhelming odds and terrible horrors, protecting their charge whatever the foe and regardless of the danger to themselves.

I would be interested to see the "new lore" on them. I can't find any hobby shops in this town ... I need to move back to the west coast :P

[wellsy]

The 7th Ed. Army Book contains the relevant information - White Lions capture cubs and adolescents and train them to bear chariots...

And boy, do they look nasty in the rules.

[Avatar Of War]

The 7th Ed. Army Book contains the relevant information - White Lions capture cubs and adolescents and train them to bear chariots...

And boy, do they look nasty in the rules.

Could you possibly scan, copy, and paste the info here?

[Pendrako]

Could you possibly scan, copy, and paste the info here?


If you read the whole thread, you'll find it's already been posted. Pay attention at the back.

Of the wild beasts that prowl the realm of Chrace, the white lions from which the famed Chracian regiments take their name are the best known. These lions are deadly hunting cats that stand as tall at the shoulder as a horse. Each white lion is capable of rending a foe limb from limb and a swipe of their claws is enough to break a man's neck.

There are accounts of prides of white lions ravaging convoys travelling through the region and even attacking isolated villages should they become hungry enough. A great many songs, poems and tales within Chrace warn of straying too close to a white lion.

It is because of the incredible danger that the white lions that the Chracian hunters are forced to hunt them with axe, spear and bow through the perilous forests of their homeland. Such encounters between the Elven hunters and the white lions all too often go against the High Elves, for such is the sheer savagery of the lions that only the very greatest hunters can expect to triumph.

Not all white lions discovered by Chracian Hunters are killed out of hand, however, for often lion cubs or adolescents are discovered and the High Elves take no joy in needless slaughter. These cubs would doubtless become savage and deadly beasts if they were left in the wild, but with expert care the young white lions are raised to become as loyal as a Griffon. Reared with tenderness normally reserved for Elven steeds or other noble creatures, these 'tame' white lions swiftly form a bond with the Chracian hunters that foster them. Thereafter these cubs are known as War Lions, for they make formidable weapons upon the battlefield.

When the regiments of Chrace go to war they are often accompanied by powerful War Lions, that draw the fame Lion Chariots. Sturdy war engines made in the traditions of the legendary chariots of Tiranioc, the Lion Chariots are fashioned from the same smooth white wood. These chariots are the finest expression of the Elven artisan's craft. Unlike the swift and nimble Tiranoc Charopts though, the Chariots of Chrace are drawn by a pair of ferocious War Lions, proud beasts whose feline grace and elegantly plaited manes belie their awesome power.

In contrast to the Tiranoc war charios that sweep across the battlefield carefully picking at their foe, the Lion Chariot of Chrace is a brutal weapon of destruction. Proceeded by savage roars that shake the enemy to their very core, the Lion Chariots plough through skirmishers and crash fearlessly into the ranks of enemy regiments. The paired War Lions tear into their foe with fang and claw, bearing mounted warriors to the ground and creating a pandemonium within tightly packed infantry formations. The crew fight from the chariot platform supporting the raging lions with deft blows from their axes, cleaving heads and shoulders with every strike. Such daring charges have become the hallmark of the Lion Chariots, earning them a reputation as courageous linebreakers capable of smashing even the most determined shieldwall.

[Avatar Of War]

If you read the whole thread, you'll find it's already been posted. Pay attention at the back.

:p I've been reading this thread for weeks, I cant be expected to remember everything cant I?


And I always sit in the front.. unless Foofmonger or the Rat are there... I Its impossible to get the smell of cheese and Chaos corruption out of fine silk...:mrgreen:

[adele_caelia]

I would love to be a white lion! I hope this is it. I love pet classes!