Paul Announces Male Sorcerer

[Ryokucha]

I guess this video (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/flash/Paul-Sorceress-BR1000.html) will end the debate. I do not agree with the reasoning behind it myself, and it will open up more debate for other gender restricted classes. But for people who wanted male sorcerers it is great news.

[Garok]

Nothing about healing there either ....... sneaky !

[Hadren]

Paul is awesome on first note. Second, glad this discussion about male sorcerers are done.

[Tlear]

Pretty clear that it is a DPS class

[Ryokucha]

Yup nothing about healing, but that would have been expecting too much info at once. But hey we found out that you can blow yourself up, "you just go for it and your head explodes, thats chaos baby" so some good info there too.

[dutch_gamer]

Is there no way to download the video? It is very hard to watch a podcast which refuses to stream at a normal pace.

[Ralzar]

Can't you just pause it, wait for it to laod and then play it? That's what I do.

[Selendor]

Xurre is gonna be so pissed...and Sindal and crew are going to be absolutely insufferable. :-P

[Duty]

I like the description. It's probably the extreme burst damage class I'm looking for...but at the same time, it's risky! I'll definitely be giving it a try.

[pzykozis]

i'm still holding out on the fact that they are the support just alot more offensively orientated than most, and that shades are still in >.< i mean.. repeater xbows are pretty iconic!

[dutch_gamer]

Can't you just pause it, wait for it to laod and then play it? That's what I do.

When I pause it, it refuses to load at all. I am still loading it with the sound turned off, but it goes terribly slow.

Xurre is gonna be so pissed...and Sindal and crew are going to be absolutely insufferable

If they are truly not healers, I am going to be pissed as well. Honestly, the Blood Priest doesn't do the Dark Elves justice in any way. It would be really stupid of them to omit a Dark Elf ranged career with a repeater crossbow for a melee healer. They should have made the Zealot the melee healer when they had the chance, instead of choosing to make a Dark Elf melee healer.

Also funny to hear why they added the male Sorcerer because they can, but yet they refuse to acknowledge that there are female Chosen and Marauders.

[Whiskeyjack]

well to be fair paul did not mention what archetype they were falling under so thats not set in stone for me untill they do so

[Dagoth]

That pretty much settles it, not a single mention to healing, only very high-damage dangerous spells.

The male sorcerer looks like Neo.

PD: I hope the healer is not that so-called Blood Acolite though.

[Gemini]

Well, they didn't mention archtype, so it ain't for sure, but if that was all I had to go on I sure would assume it was ranged dps. But who knows, Mythic enjoys messing with us. Hopefully the rest of the newsletter will bring a real answer.

[Theodore]

I was a bit annoyed he didn't give a lore justification for male sorcs.

[Ryokucha]

Well the newsletter does not really expand on any other info that is already in the video. They do have a quote related to why there would be no male sorcerers.

"Sorceresses must be courageous and strong. She must be wedded first and foremost to the great Witch King, and so may never take a husband nor sire children." - From the Sixth Book of Secrets by Kaladhtoir of Clad Karond

Just a interesting quote to add, after saying they are male also. Think they would have went with a quote that would explain how the male version also is apart of the story.

[Dagoth]

I was a bit annoyed he didn't give a lore justification for male sorcs.

They don´t really have to, the "No sorcerors" rule is not something set in stone, it didn´t exist back in 4th edition, hell it may not exist in the upcoming 7th edition.

[ElvishHammer]

When I watched the podcast the first thing that came to mind was the heritic focus fire from daoc, where the heretic would focus on one target and the longer the focus, the more damage. It ramped up. But, not quite the same thing.

Thinking about it more, it sounds more like the sorc from vanguard, where one of their most damaging spells, if not the most damaging, was a spell where with each cast it became more damaging. But also with each use it damaged the caster, and this damage taken by the caster would aslo ramp up as well. So while the damage was massive so too was the damage the caster took when casting it.

With how Paul described it it sounds more like the vanguard spell, but not with progressive damage, but with a progressive percentage that harm or death would befall the caster.

So I see this class has having the potential for being the most damaging class out there, but it will suffer from not being consistent as it cannot always be sustained and leads to untimely death.

[Sindal]

The podcast DEF implies that they are ranged dps. The mechanics would not work as a healer any way at all. A healer who randomly blows himself up? yea THAT will work. The only possible way if that is truly the mechainc is as ranged dps.

Now I really need to get to the cauldron, seems there is all of a sudden a plethora of shades to sacrifice =p

[Hadren]

I cant wait to see all the DE sorc exploding around me at first..Eventually they will learn.

[Sindal]

When I watched the podcast the first thing that came to mind was the heritic focus fire from daoc, where the heretic would focus on one target and the longer the focus, the more damage. It ramped up. But, not quite the same thing.

Thinking about it more, it sounds more like the sorc from vanguard, where one of their most damaging spells, if not the most damaging, was a spell where with each cast it became more damaging. But also with each use it damaged the caster, and this damage taken by the caster would aslo ramp up as well. So while the damage was massive so too was the damage the caster took when casting it.

With how Paul described it it sounds more like the vanguard spell, but not with progressive damage, but with a progressive percentage that harm or death would befall the caster.

So I see this class has having the potential for being the most damaging class out there, but it will suffer from not being consistent as it cannot always be sustained and leads to untimely death.

you are dead on as to what I inferred from the video, which is exactly how I imagined them all along. Huge explosions, nasty, dark, the most powerful burst out there, but do not stand to close =p

[Barundin162]

I have to admit about being seriouly dissapointed about this....its so.....sad

[Lord Tareq]

Since some mod doesn't want people making topics on a forum, I'll put it in this topic:

First of all, please stop mentioning incorrectly that Black Guard will kill any male sorcerer on sight. Male sorcerers are regarded with superstition, and are not allowed to be part of one of the convents of sorceresses. They are not killed on sight, not even by the Black Guard, that is just stuff made up by fans.
Sure, its still a slight lore stretch to make them playable, as I assume they will have the same class quests as sorceresses which means contact with the convents (and I doubt they will give male sorcerers completely unique classquests), but its nothing more then a little stretch of the lore.

Secondly, that the sorceress has been revealed as probably being the ranged dps, does not automatically mean there will be a Khainite healer. So you can keep all your "I told you so" comments before you untill they actually announce said healer, which I greatly doubt. Anointed is likely, some other healer we didn't think about is likely, Khainite healer is also possible but such an immense lore breach I doubt Mythic will dare go that way.

My 2 cents.

[Lint]

Nice, this was the class I wanted to play if they made a male version. I'm not much for lore, anyway.

[Lucrece]

I can see it being a DPS/CC/Debuff class. What I mean by this is that they're a class with good incremental and burst capabilities, but they are not long-term casters, unlike the magus. While the offensive limit is near, they tune down by concentrating on CC/Debuff while waiting out the stabilization of the limit bar.

Another perspective could be that of a berserker caster, where they can really push the envelope, but they also take risks in doing so.

If this was the full newsletter video, though, I'm pretty unimpressed; the shadow warrior one had far more content revealed.

[Asuril]

Hmph. Damn it.

[dutch_gamer]

@ Lord Tareq Mythic has already told us there won't be class specific quests.

Secondly, that the sorceress has been revealed as probably being the ranged dps, does not automatically mean there will be a Khainite healer. So you can keep all your "I told you so" comments before you untill they actually announce said healer, which I greatly doubt. Anointed is likely, some other healer we didn't think about is likely, Khainite healer is also possible but such an immense lore breach I doubt Mythic will dare go that way.

That is fine and all, but there will still be a melee healer, and that is what I have an issue with. They should have made the Zealot the melee healer when they had the chance. And having a melee healer for the DE, also means no career with a repeater crossbow. Sure, they can give it to the melee healer, but then it is very likely it is just a minor gimmick, which doesn't do it justice.

[Vit]

Is there no way to download the video? It is very hard to watch a podcast which refuses to stream at a normal pace.

You have two ways to solve the problem.
1. Pause it, and when the bar is full - play it. You posted it doesn't work for you.. so how you watch other movies (like youtube or others?),
2. Anyway you can just install Real Player and then when you move the cursor on the frame you have option to "Download This Video".. and then you can watch it from your HD.

[Zunjin]

I could imagine myself playing this class instead of the blackguard. But then it is going to be a female for sure! They look kickass in difference to that other wannabe.:cool:

[Estebar]

That male Sorceror looks so...plain. :( Maybe it's because he's dressed almost completely in black. Maybe it's because he's not showing as much white flesh as the Sorceress. Maybe it's because he's not carrying a staff. And maybe it's because he hasn't got those cool ribbons designed with runes blowing in the breeze like the Sorceress does...

...all I know is, that concept art for him looks bland as hell, and they're gonna have a hard time differing him in design from the Magus (y'know, apart from the whole Disc thing ;) ).

I've been giving it some thought, and perhaps Paul only gave us half of the information on the Sorceror. Why the hell could a "glass-cannon class", as frail as the Bright Wizard, be popular if it's at risk of blowing itself up all the time? Sounds useless.

The only explanation I can think of is that the Sorceror is the Dark Elf healer class, and that he has to find a balance between using powerful spells and supporting his allies, otherwise he'll use too much power, damage himself, and will have to spend time trying to heal himself instead.

The Ranged DPS Sorceror and Melee Healer just doesn't add up.

As a "glass cannon" the Sorceror would have to stay as far away from combat as possible. If the Sorceror blew himself up, the Dark Elf melee healer wouldn't be able to support him because he'd be stuck in combat.

What use is that? My guess is that the Sorceror will have to use his remaining power to heal himself if he messes up.

I still have (a small amount of) faith that the Sorceror is a Healer class. We'll just have to hope that the newsletter has more details on which Archetype the Sorceror comes under.

[Lord Tareq]

@ Lord Tareq Mythic has already told us there won't be class specific quests.

Ah okey, to bad always like those. Still, I assume sorceresses will have some interaction with the convents (item vendors perhaps?) which should not be possible for sorcerors to interact with.
But as I said, just a minor stretch of lore.

[Barundin162]

Since some mod doesn't want people making topics on a forum, I'll put it in this topic:

First of all, please stop mentioning incorrectly that Black Guard will kill any male sorcerer on sight. Male sorcerers are regarded with superstition, and are not allowed to be part of one of the convents of sorceresses. They are not killed on sight, not even by the Black Guard, that is just stuff made up by fans.
Sure, its still a slight lore stretch to make them playable, as I assume they will have the same class quests as sorceresses which means contact with the convents (and I doubt they will give male sorcerers completely unique classquests), but its nothing more then a little stretch of the lore.

My 2 cents.

1. You probably shouldnt insinuate things about the Mods...

2. I will not stop saying Black Guard would kill Male Sorcerers on the spot..cause they would...Male sorcerers are not regarded wth superstition, they are actively hunted and killed without question.

3. Its not a slight lore stretch, its a direct break.



I am not trying to start a personal argument here, so please dont take this as directed against you personally, but your statement about the Black Guard is inacurate.

[dutch_gamer]

You have to ways to solve the problem.
1. Pause it, and when the bar is full - play it. You posted it doesn't work for you.. so how you watch other movies (like youtube or others?),
2. Anyway you can just install Real Player and then when you move the cursor on the frame you have option to "Download This Video".. and then you can watch it from your HD.

I never ever have issues with youtube videos, I only tend to have issues with Mythic's streams and their slow loading screenshots. So I assume it is mainly a bandwidth problem on their end.

[Lord Tareq]

2. I will not stop saying Black Guard would kill Male Sorcerers on the spot..cause they would...Male sorcerers are not regarded wth superstition, they are actively hunted and killed without question.

3. Its not a slight lore stretch, its a direct break.

You are incorrect. Please supply some official sources (so not your personal interpretation) that state this, it would surprise me greatly if you find any.

I've been giving it some thought, and perhaps Paul only gave us half of the information on the Sorceror. Why the hell could a "glass-cannon class", as frail as the Bright Wizard, be popular if it's at risk of blowing itself up all the time? Sounds useless.I doubt the "overload" will insta-kill the sorceress or even happen every few casts. However it means you need to manage your spells carefully, or decide to go all-out and risk loosing an unhealthy part of your healthbar :)

[Aeonus]

3. Its not a slight lore stretch, its a direct break.


The 4th edition had male sorcerers, the game has been suggested to use 4th edition as a basis for it's lore etc.

[Vit]

I never ever have issues with youtube videos, I only tend to have issues with Mythic's streams and their slow loading screenshots. So I assume it is mainly a bandwidth problem on their end.

You should have possibility to pause the video. That's strange you can't do it.
Anyway - try with Real Player (download some trial for example ;)).

[Emeraldw99]

The 4th edition had male sorcerers, the game has been suggested to use 4th edition as a basis for it's lore etc.

Quoting as everyone seems to forget this little fact.

[Alota]

Ok, so they will use the time before the prophecy was made and allow male sorcerers, I can live with that.
The podcast does indeed suggest that they're ranged dps, but Paul didn't say she is a ragned dps. It could be that they did that to keep the debate up about, because, well, if he said 'she's a support class' or 'she's a ranged dps class' it would end up another debate, that of the melee bloodstupidness or the Anointed lorebreaker. So we'll still have to wait (again, damnit!) if I'm gonna be joyful about the classrole or gonna smash my head into a wall, break my neighbours window and put a baby in a blender while tripping on heroïne to take away my frustrations for a small bit of time.

[Barundin162]

Quoting as everyone seems to forget this little fact.

Well I dont think this is so, and Ill tell you why.

Look at the "pretty much taken as fact" White Lion pet class...or if you want something more official the Zone description of Chrace.

It is not untill the new 7th edition HE army book that the actual Lions where used for anything other than killed in the hunt.

[dutch_gamer]

Quoting as everyone seems to forget this little fact.

We know this, but Mythic also has made it very clear that the Prophecy is in place. And, I don't have the 4th edition so I can't check, isn't it so that there is no Prophecy in the 4th edition? Why would Malekith allow for the existence of male Sorcerers when he knows about the Prophecy? It is not as if Malekith is so blind to not be able to tell that the person looking like Neo, is a Sorcerer when the Sorcerer prances around on his Black Ark.

[Knifeparty]

Is it possible the DE will recieve 2 RDPS classes, instead of support?

Just a thought considering i can't think of any class for the DE that would be a healer. Healing kind of goes against everything DE stand for anyway. Maybe in the end we will get something like a manflayer, a cross between melee DPS and ranged DPS

[Dagoth]

Is it possible the DE will recieve 2 RDPS classes, instead of support?


No

We know this, but Mythic also has made it very clear that the Prophecy is in place. And, I don't have the 4th edition so I can't check, isn't it so that there is no Prophecy in the 4th edition? Why would Malekith allow for the existence of male Sorcerers when he knows about the Prophecy? It is not as if Malekith is so blind to not be able to tell that the person looking like Neo, is a Sorcerer when the Sorcerer prances around on his Black Ark.

Pretty much, the Prophecy simply didn´t exist back in 4th, and they have said that this is an alternate world, which doesn´t mean they do intelectual orcs or something like that, but they can pick things from different editions if it suits them.

How I wish Malal could appear in the game :(.

[Lord Tareq]

Even with the prophecy in place, only small male children that show magical potential are killed. There is no known lore (afaik, still waiting for Barundin's quotes) that states those that are not discovered as babies and grow mature are being killed on sight. Its just fans thinking "if they are killed as babies, they are killed as adults" which doesn't have to be like that. The dark elf armybook states there are sorcerers, and they are even employed by ambitious nobles in their armies.

[Gemini]

First of all, please stop mentioning incorrectly that Black Guard will kill any male sorcerer on sight. Male sorcerers are regarded with superstition, and are not allowed to be part of one of the convents of sorceresses. They are not killed on sight, not even by the Black Guard, that is just stuff made up by fans.


This is not so. This interview with a GW employee says otherwise. (http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=192)
Female greenskins simply do not exist, so they couldn’t be in W.A.R. male Dark Elf Sorcerers? Well, Malekith simply orders that they all be put to death at birth…who’s to say that his every order gets carried out?We know this, but Mythic also has made it very clear that the Prophecy is in place. And, I don't have the 4th edition so I can't check, isn't it so that there is no Prophecy in the 4th edition?

Not saying your lying, but where did you hear that? I don't remember it, not that that means much. Theres so much info out there I know it's hard to remember all of it, and where all of it came from.

Is it possible the DE will recieve 2 RDPS classes, instead of support?

No. Each race has all four archetypes.

[Black Razor]

The 4th edition had male sorcerers, the game has been suggested to use 4th edition as a basis for it's lore etc.

That comes from...

When we started crafting our backstory, GW suggested that we use the 4th edition army books as our primary references. These books are packed full of lore, and so we were happy to oblige.

The role of the Sorceress certainly seems to be DPS, but its still an open point of discussion as it is yet undefined. Yes Paul said when they do damage there head will explode .. but as I said in the Newsletter thread and will reiterate here .. Paul has a tendency in these things to over emphasize the combat element of all classes in their pod casts. The background fluff from the actual newsletter states that 'The channeling of the raw Winds of Chaos and the binding of these forces give the Sorceress her power. Such power is vast but dangerous..' .. this can also be applied to support casting. Since the newsletter doesn't specify her role by saying DPS or Support .. I think the issue can still be considered up in the air and alot of folks are jumping to many conclusions far to early.

As to male Sorceress .. yes ..thats what they are called ..cause its the official class name :p ... they are supported EVEN in current lore .. it speaks of them in the army book quite clearly. The issue in reference to WAR and how it kinda violates lore is including both Black Guard .. Malekiths elite .. and male Sorceresses .. his enemies ... its perplexing but not too terrible a lore break.

[Lord Tareq]

@ Gemini, note the "at birth" part of your quote. Adult male sorcerers are not killed on sight afaik, which is the point we are talking about since the sorcerers in game won't be babies but mature.

[Flegler]

It is not untill the new 7th edition HE army book that the actual Lions where used for anything other than killed in the hunt.
Warhammer has changed a lot over the years, they're just picking and choosing those parts of the lore that they think fit the game best. Remember the Batman analogy? If male sorcerers and tame white lions are things that have existed in warhammer at any point then they can fit in this game.

[cabal]

Hey every one

Ok im not the guy who knows alot about WAR but if Myth/EA have spoken with mom and dad=Gamesworkshop about this idea and they said:coool what a great idea, isen't it there call...and we do a /bow and say... ohh holy old ones i love your beer :)

[Kharnan]

So cool.

It's first nonhuman race that I might consider playing.
They look awesome and mechanic described by Paul sounds really great.

[cabal]

So cool.

It's first nonhuman race that I might consider playing.
They look awesome and mechanic described by Paul sounds really great.

Im siting with a really nice dark beer from carlsberg and ill drink too that Kharnan :-D

[Browncoat-WHA]

Hey every one

Ok im not the guy who knows alot about WAR but if Myth/EA have spoken with mom and dad=Gamesworkshop about this idea and they said:coool what a great idea, isen't it there call...and we do a /bow and say... ohh holy old ones i love your beer :)

Not particularly. From a moderation standpoint, you could say that if that's the final decision, then that's the final decision and no discussion need be had. But I do think a certain level of discussion surrounding the decision is good because it provides feedback and gives the developers an idea of how well (or not well) received their ideas are. While ultimately yes, they will make decisions that not everyone is happy about, it doesn't mean that discussion necessarily needs to halt on it.

When it gets circular and people are running out of points/breath/ideas, that's usually when things should be steered in a "closure" direction. But I see no problem with talk on, well, any topic as long as it fits within the purpose of the forum and the rules by which it is governed.

[Dagoth]

@ Gemini, note the "at birth" part of your quote. Adult male sorcerers are not killed on sight afaik, which is the point we are talking about since the sorcerers in game won't be babies but mature.

Now that argument doesn´t make any sense, Malekith is convinced that a sorcerer will kill him, thus his orders are that every sorcerer must be executed the instant he is discovered.

Killing newborns with magic capabilities is only part of that.

[NoneSuch]

Now that argument doesn´t make any sense, Malekith is convinced that a sorcerer will kill him, thus his orders are that every sorcerer must be executed the instant he is discovered.

Killing newborns with magic capabilities is only part of that.

Good for him

But this isn't Warhammer, This is Warhammer Age of reckoning. In this version of Warhammer Male sorcerers are obviously alive and kicking - You can't disagree, or claim otherwise as this has been stated by mythic and fully allowed by gameworkshop.

So yes - Maybe in one edition of the rules all males who have potential magical abilities are executed but that's a moot point, because this isn't that version - This is a mmo online game based on warhammer, following it's own storyline.

[Ryokucha]

Hey every one

Ok im not the guy who knows alot about WAR but if Myth/EA have spoken with mom and dad=Gamesworkshop about this idea and they said:coool what a great idea, isen't it there call...and we do a /bow and say... ohh holy old ones i love your beer :)

Sure cabal you are right, their game, their vision they can do what they feel they need to do with the game. If GW told mythic it was ok, then whose to really argue with that. I really think it was a good idea to allow male sorcerer, why should there be so many restrictions on a class. I can understand peoples feelings of wanting to stay true to a IP, but in the world of MMO's that just will never happen. If they follow a IP too true, it might actually hurt a game more then help.

That said, I also do see where now this opens up the idea of maybe other classes that have been told through IP that maybe a certain gender and class combination is not common but may exist, yet is being labeled not following lore. That is like saying well there is really no lore to backup no female Black Guard, yet they went with restricting BG to male only. I see no reason to place other restrictions on class/gender roles, if they found a way to make Sorcerer plausible, I am sure they can find ways to make some other combinations just as plausible.

It might be their game, but to go out of their way to make sure they can get one class/gender role in game, they should fight equally as hard for other restrictions to be removed. But that is just my take on it, really opened these gender restriction issues to debate, not that there has not already been enough of that... But it still does whether we like it or not.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

No offense, but I still doubt its RDPS.
I mean, tell me one other rdps career that has a sort of negative debuff things on its spells.
Even bright wizards, the biggest glass-cannons, don't.

Unless dark elf sorceress are going to be even easier to kill, and have an even higher damage, I find it to be rather...stupid to give them this gimmick.

I hope they'll clear this up, as I waited long enough now.

[Foofmonger]

No offense, but I still doubt its RDPS.
I mean, tell me one other rdps career that has a sort of negative debuff things on its spells.
Even bright wizards, the biggest glass-cannons, don't.

Unless dark elf sorceress are going to be even easier to kill, and have an even higher damage, I find it to be rather...stupid to give them this gimmick.

I hope they'll clear this up, as I waited long enough now.

If the Sorc is RDPS, that still gives me hope for Beastmasters as support!

Pretty cool mechanic IMO, the whole, do I go for max damage and risk killing myself thing, or do I do a steady stream but keep myself safe.

I can't wait until the first time I see a sorc blow themselves up.

[Dagoth]

Good for him

But this isn't Warhammer, This is Warhammer Age of reckoning. In this version of Warhammer Male sorcerers are obviously alive and kicking - You can't disagree, or claim otherwise as this has been stated by mythic and fully allowed by gameworkshop.

So yes - Maybe in one edition of the rules all males who have potential magical abilities are executed but that's a moot point, because this isn't that version - This is a mmo online game based on warhammer, following it's own storyline.

In the other Warhammer sorcerors exist, it´s perfectly fine for them to.

Hell, Malus Darkblade is a sorcerer, and it´s rumored that he is in fact the one the Prophecy speaks of.

However, it´s one thing for a sorceror to live, if he wasn´t noticed.

It´s another thing altogether to see sorceror in front of Malekith saying "You missed one, dude"

It´s fine if the damn Prophecy doesn´t exist in WAR, it´s not fine if it does exist and you use excuses like "But he only kills babies" to justify sorcerors. I assume Mythic is simply ignoring the Prophecy.


No offense, but I still doubt its RDPS.
I mean, tell me one other rdps career that has a sort of negative debuff things on its spells.
Even bright wizards, the biggest glass-cannons, don't.

Unless dark elf sorceress are going to be even easier to kill, and have an even higher damage, I find it to be rather...stupid to give them this gimmick.

I hope they'll clear this up, as I waited long enough now.


Maybe they are in fact healers and have to heal in order low their energy
I wonder why the hell Paul didn´t just say what the archetype was.

[Alota]

From what I've seen from the podcasts, they first had the idea of making sorcceress's female only (and applying the prophecy), but because they also made male concept art and they found it 'cool' they looked into the lore and saw that the prophecy didn't always existed, thus making male sorcerers allowable. If the prophecy would exist, Malekith would kill every sorcerer, because if he only killed the babies with magical capabilities, it would be kinda dumb as there would be still sorcerers (and the sorcerers who weren't caught are in hiding)
It just wouldn't make any sence to have male sorcerers run around freely and used in battle when the prophecy would exist.

[Whiskeyjack]

No offense, but I still doubt its RDPS.
I mean, tell me one other rdps career that has a sort of negative debuff things on its spells.
Even bright wizards, the biggest glass-cannons, don't.

Unless dark elf sorceress are going to be even easier to kill, and have an even higher damage, I find it to be rather...stupid to give them this gimmick.

I hope they'll clear this up, as I waited long enough now.

thats a bit what i was thinking personally i think they are still support. if this mechanic is an accumulation of negative energies culminating in a big boom well that emans sorc will have to stop fighting at some point in a fight and that just doesnt make for a very enjoyable class BUT if they are support then they can just nuke then support to let the debuuf or however itll work drop

[Black Razor]

It just wouldn't make any sence to have male sorcerers run around freely and used in battle when the prophecy would exist.

In the current edition of the Dark Elf sourcebook where it speaks of male sorcerers it also notes that the houses will sometimes employ these rogue sorcerers when they don't want the sorceress covens to be involved in their dealings. Perhaps House Uthorin has something to hide ...

[Lord Tareq]

Now that argument doesn´t make any sense, Malekith is convinced that a sorcerer will kill him, thus his orders are that every sorcerer must be executed the instant he is discovered.

Killing newborns with magic capabilities is only part of that.

Once again, source please.

The only mention in the armybook is that sorcerers are regarded with disdain and superstition, and cannot be admitted to the convents. And that there are nobles however who will employ such magic users.

In one of the Warhammer Roleplaying I believe it is mentioned sidelings that there are few male sorcerers because small male children who are found to have the gift of magic are killed. A GW spokesman confirmed this recently in an interview with tentonhammer.

There is no mention whatsoever that adult male sorcerers are executed on the spot. If you have different sources then please state them here so we can end this debate.

[Whiskeyjack]

In the current edition of the Dark Elf sourcebook where it speaks of male sorcerers it also notes that the houses will sometimes employ these rogue sorcerers when they don't want the sorceress covens to be involved in their dealings. Perhaps House Uthorin has something to hide ...



very good point in all honestty altho i dont care much about this lore neding breakign thing this noble house is very far from the homeland and can prolly get away with these things easier than under Malekith's eye

[Estebar]

In the current edition of the Dark Elf sourcebook where it speaks of male sorcerers it also notes that the houses will sometimes employ these rogue sorcerers when they don't want the sorceress covens to be involved in their dealings. Perhaps House Uthorin has something to hide ...
If that's the case, then also employing female Sorceresses from the Coven probably wasn't the best idea... :mrgreen:

[Whiskeyjack]

If that's the case, then also employing female Sorceresses from the Coven probably wasn't the best idea... :mrgreen:


hehe unless they are in on w/e is being plotted

[Dagoth]

Once again, source please.

The only mention in the armybook is that sorcerers are regarded with disdain and superstition, and cannot be admitted to the convents. And that there are nobles however who will employ such magic users.

In one of the Warhammer Roleplaying I believe it is mentioned sidelings that there are few male sorcerers because small male children who are found to have the gift of magic are killed. A GW spokesman confirmed this recently in an interview with tentonhammer.

There is no mention whatsoever that adult male sorcerers are executed on the spot. If you have different sources then please state them here so we can end this debate.

I don´t have a source, because I think it´s common sense that if you would kill the babies who could become sorcerors, you would also kill the grown-up sorcerors.

In the current edition of the Dark Elf sourcebook where it speaks of male sorcerers it also notes that the houses will sometimes employ these rogue sorcerers when they don't want the sorceress covens to be involved in their dealings. Perhaps House Uthorin has something to hide ...

That´s because no DE but Malekith has anything against male sorcerers, so as long as he doesn´t know, it´s perfectly fine.
He WILL know however, if the Black Guard interacts with them.

[Black Razor]

If that's the case, then also employing female Sorceresses from the Coven probably wasn't the best idea... :mrgreen:

Who is to say they did? If Malekith sent his Black Guard he may have also sent the Sorceress along as well. The dealings with the Sorcerers may well be being done under there nose .. Dark Elf political dealings usually go this way. Gotta love it.

[Lucrece]

The mechanic is not a debuff; it is rather a limit bar that encourages players to consider going all out with high risks, or pace themselves and possibly throw some CC/Debuffs around. The mechanic is also not detrimental to an RDPS class as long as the benefits outweight the negatives. I could see sorcerers as having the strongest burst damage/incremental potential capabilities, but having them at the consequence of frailty, which suits the physically weaker (humans are stronger; elves are more skilled due to mental capabilities and lifespan) elves.

What disappoints me,though, is that the podcast is not near as good in quality as it was for the shadow warriors. The shadow warriors were equally mysterious, yet they got far more content revealed. Conversely, the sorceress's podcast shamelessly used pictures and overextended aesthetic descriptions in order to kill time and avoid explaining mechanics in detail.

Has anyone gotten the newsletter so far?

In addition, please rethink the male sorcerer aesthetics; he looks more like a priest rather than a decadent and dark elvishly seductive magic overlord. His look lacked the elaboration the female sorceress possessed.

[Alota]

In the current edition of the Dark Elf sourcebook where it speaks of male sorcerers it also notes that the houses will sometimes employ these rogue sorcerers when they don't want the sorceress covens to be involved in their dealings. Perhaps House Uthorin has something to hide ...


But you forgot the fact that the Black Guard will also be around here and they're probably not around when the houses hire these sorcerers ;)

And Lord Tareq, the source is the prophecy and Malekith thinking it's about him. Thus by using logic you can say they will get killed on the spot.

[Black Razor]

Has anyone gotten the newsletter so far?


Ayup. Right around noon central time.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

The mechanic is not a debuff; it is rather a limit bar that encourages players to consider going all out with high risks, or pace themselves and possibly throw some CC/Debuffs around. The mechanic is also not detrimental to an RDPS class as long as the benefits outweight the negatives. I could see sorcerers as having the strongest burst damage/incremental potential capabilities, but having them at the consequence of frailty, which suits the physically weaker (humans are stronger; elves are more skilled due to mental capabilities and lifespan) elves.

What disappoints me,though, is that the podcast is not near as good in quality as it was for the shadow warriors. The shadow warriors were equally mysterious, yet they got far more content revealed. Conversely, the sorceress's podcast shamelessly used pictures and overextended aesthetic descriptions in order to kill time and avoid explaining mechanics in detail.

Has anyone gotten the newsletter so far?

In addition, please rethink the male sorcerer aesthetics; he looks more like a priest rather than a decadent and dark elvishly seductive magic overlord. His look lacked the elaboration the female sorceress possessed.
So?
The bright wizard is fragile too, very fragile too be precise, but I don't see him having a negative side.
I suspect there's something very important they haven't told us.
Be it that they are the healer, or that they are getting a very unique gimmick.

[Dagoth]

So?
The bright wizard is fragile too, very fragile too be precise, but I don't see him having a negative side.
I suspect there's something very important they haven't told us.

And to balance that negative side, sorceress are semi-nude.

[TickTock]

and it will open up more debate for other gender restricted classes.

QFT.

Someone is going to revive whatever is left of that liquefied dead horse that is the female chosen.

[cabal]

Sure cabal you are right, their game, their vision they can do what they feel they need to do with the game. If GW told mythic it was ok, then whose to really argue with that. I really think it was a good idea to allow male sorcerer, why should there be so many restrictions on a class. I can understand peoples feelings of wanting to stay true to a IP, but in the world of MMO's that just will never happen. If they follow a IP too true, it might actually hurt a game more then help.

That said, I also do see where now this opens up the idea of maybe other classes that have been told through IP that maybe a certain gender and class combination is not common but may exist, yet is being labeled not following lore. That is like saying well there is really no lore to backup no female Black Guard, yet they went with restricting BG to male only. I see no reason to place other restrictions on class/gender roles, if they found a way to make Sorcerer plausible, I am sure they can find ways to make some other combinations just as plausible.

It might be their game, but to go out of their way to make sure they can get one class/gender role in game, they should fight equally as hard for other restrictions to be removed. But that is just my take on it, really opened these gender restriction issues to debate, not that there has not already been enough of that... But it still does whether we like it or not.

Yes i fully understand you and Browncoat, so is it becuse that DE allready had a female char and they said ahhh god theres to meny chicks on this side lets do somthing half and half and from here on we debat about this crazy idea... bad or good

and yes its a thorn in the eye for meny of the old WAR player out there too sudenly see a SOC male char and now comes the part im really bad at ( call my teacher i diten pay any att in class i was looking out the window searching for UFO/in a fantasy land some where)
but there was somthing about all male char cant become a SOC.

[Earth Dragon]

QFT.

Someone is going to revive whatever is left of that liquefied dead horse that is the female chosen.

Why people want to play Male Witch Elves and Female Linebackers (Chosen) is beyond me.

[Ryokucha]

Why people want to play Male Witch Elves and Female Linebackers (Chosen) is beyond me.

Why do people want to play Male Sorcerers? I think it goes back to, people just want the freedom of choice, that is just human nature. It also opens up different ways to RP a more unknown or rare combination.

[Yavvy]

In addition, please rethink the male sorcerer aesthetics; he looks more like a priest rather than a decadent and dark elvishly seductive magic overlord. His look lacked the elaboration the female sorceress possessed.Agreed... they should wear something similar to the females, at least showing some skin to contrast with the black clothing, instead of the big, plain, black blob they have now.

Someone is going to revive whatever is left of that liquefied dead horse that is the female chosen.Now that you mention it... xD

Seeing the Inevitable City (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/flash/VotM_InevCity-BR1000.html) did refresh the sadness that I can't be one, tho. Thats awsome!

[Ayetalam]

Ok. I just got the newsletter. There is even less info than the video and no specific mention of the archtype. Im on my phone so I will add copy and pastes when I get home. But coming next month: New Dark Elf Class Revealed!

[Rasek]

Paul said sorc job is blowing things up, even themselves.
So maybe they are DPS? and i hope so, if sorc is the healer, then they are justing mirroring the High elves.

[Yavvy]

Paul said sorc job is blowing things up, even themselves.
So maybe they are DPS? and i hope so, if sorc is the healer, then they are justing mirroring the High elves.
Paul said the Black Guards job is cutting things into 3 pieces.

[Lucrece]

So?
The bright wizard is fragile too, very fragile too be precise, but I don't see him having a negative side.
I suspect there's something very important they haven't told us.
Be it that they are the healer, or that they are getting a very unique gimmick.

So, you can't disqualify the sorceress as a RDPS possibility because they operate with the potential of negative side-effects. It is similar to the witch elf elixirs; if the good overwhelms the bad, then it can and will work.

Furthermore, the Bright Wizard has a nice repertoire of defensive abilities. The scenario could be that the sorceress would be a more extreme glass cannon. Sorceress wins in calculated bursts and sequences, but she cannot achieve the consistent long-term DPS that the bright wizard provides due to the limit bar; if she does so, she does so at her own peril, becoming a possible liability to her team.

I agree with you that there's something they haven't said, but that's not probably that they forgot to say they can heal. They simply avoided any concrete explanation of sorceress mechanics and gimmicks by going over the aesthetics in order to evade full revelation; anyone can watch the concept art at the website and draw a conclusion on the concept; Paul's ramblings over a long part of the podcast dealing with the aesthetics are useless.

We deserved more info, an amount equal to the shadow warrior info, and we did not get it. I must say I am rather disappointed with the podcast in some aspects, mainly the lack of detail and the shoddy artwork male sorcerors got in comparison to females.

[Rasek]

Paul said the Black Guards job is cutting things into 3 pieces.

no, their job is hating ( just like that smurf that hated everything). Cutting things into 3 pieces is just their delicate way of "poking" a target to check if its dead!!!

[Syr]

I guess this video (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/flash/Paul-Sorceress-BR1000.html) will end the debate. I do not agree with the reasoning behind it myself, and it will open up more debate for other gender restricted classes. But for people who wanted male sorcerers it is great news.


The reasoning is pretty simple really, too much of destruction is gender restricted already and so far none of order is. Sure they could keep restricting the genders, but they care more about not having one side outpopulate the other 10 to 1 in an RVR game where populations matter. This is an area where lore needs to take a back seat to game mechanics, the quality of the game is more important.

[Zihark]

Just wanted top say don't take Paul's word's exactly as he describes them, he often get's over excited and says lot of things that arn't fully true in the end. I personall thionk this is one of those times and he missed some important parts of the game mechanics. And actually, we didn't hear much about healing when they talked about the other healing classes either

[Drift3r]

The reasoning is pretty simple really, too much of destruction is gender restricted already and so far none of order is. Sure they could keep restricting the genders, but they care more about not having one side outpopulate the other 10 to 1 in an RVR game where populations matter. This is an area where lore needs to take a back seat to game mechanics, the quality of the game is more important.

So now you get to play the only melee fighter in destruction that can be female which is also scantly clad or the scantly clad magic caster.

LoL what a great way to ensure that real women only play the Order side in this game while all the female pc's on the Destruction Side are teenage boys. Sad part out of all of this is that it would not of effected game play at all to get the genders of each race/class correct in regards to lore. There is nothing against female being Chaos Chosen or Marauders and there is plenty of lore supporting female only Sorceresses.

[Vernal]

Unless it goes something like this:

DARK MAGIC
DARK MAGIC
DARK MAGIC

I think I'm gonna explode, so I'm going to lower my "suicide" bar by healing

HEAL
HEAL
DARK MAGIC
DARK MAGIC

[Azrayne2.0]

I think if they intended it as a healer they would have at least mentioned the word once in the podcast.

Some of you people really need to learn when to just let go.

[Ryokucha]

I think the fact he explained Sorcerers sounding almost like a glass canon without actually saying glass canon. It would make no sense that they would heal. It would be too overpowered to deal insane dmg, get close to killing your self through doing that insane dmg, stop and heal back up.

But who knows strange things are abound to happen once in awhile. I just think in the healing case, it was not to be.

[Arkane]

I think if they intended it as a healer they would have at least mentioned the word once in the podcast.

Some of you people really need to learn when to just let go.

Completely agree. I am not too sure why people are still debating this one, it is pretty obvious.

[Browncoat-WHA]

Arkane;556609']Completely agree. I am not too sure why people are still debating this one, it is pretty obvious.

In my experience with other forums, especially ones with regards to games, if the information is not definitively and absolutely stated in black and white there will always be a discussion about it or speculation to other lines of thought. So while it is uncommon for something that "seems" obvious to be something else, you just never know.

That's why I've left threads open about whether or not the Sorc class is support or ranged DPS, despite some indications that it is indeed the ranged DPS class. I don't really have an issue with it as long as people respect each other's opinions and make meaningful posts.

Just thought I'd add a little mod-type insight :) It's just the nature of forums such as these.

[Saerain]

I never would have believed it if you told me I would one day look at a modern video game's elf and my only complaint would be that the ears are enormous. Splendid. Pure splendour.

The female is less splendid... but I disliked the With Elf concept art as well, while I think they look excellent in-game, so I suspect the same dichotomy here.

[Vit]

DE S will have for sure some kind of decreasing their "raisin power", some abilities. But we can't say it's gonna be healing, resting or gathering flowers - all we can do is waiting for confirmed info or discuss some theories ;)

[Avatar Of War]

Well its official its RDPS
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2817 (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/../gallery/showimage.php?i=2817)

I have no problem with Male Socerers they are in the fluff.

[Thrakkesh]

Say it with me.

Male Sorcerors are in the lore.

It even says, in the stupid army book, that they are still around. The NEW one, the recent one. People just can't seem to wrap around their head that in a civilization full of underhanded backstabbers that laws might be conveinetly ignored or overlooked if say, there was something to gain from it.

Oh, Hi Morathi miss Leader of Pleasure cult and ALSO Hag Queen of Witch Elves!

[Gemini]

Well its official its RDPS
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2817 (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/../gallery/showimage.php?i=2817)


Now, I'm not saying he's wrong, but just because Garth made a pretty little chart dosn't mean it's official :P

[Avatar Of War]

Say it with me.

Male Sorcerors are in the lore.

It even says, in the stupid army book, that they are still around. The NEW one, the recent one. People just can't seem to wrap around their head that in a civilization full of underhanded backstabbers that laws might be conveinetly ignored or overlooked if say, there was something to gain from it.

Oh, Hi Morathi miss Leader of Pleasure cult and ALSO Hag Queen of Witch Elves!

You sire win the internet.

You are correct in your assesment.

I have even stated before, that once this law was decreed many of the leaders of the black arks would purposely have a hidden group of male casters... just in case a opertunaty for 'advancement' presented itself.

Let alone all the male casters who hid because they did not want to become suchi,...and the ones from powerful families that did not want their son's killed do to a caprisous whim.

[Arkane]

Now, I'm not saying he's wrong, but just because Garth made a pretty little chart dosn't mean it's official :P

It ... is ... pretty ... obvious...

[Gemini]

Arkane;557785']It ... is ... pretty ... obvious...

Yes, you'll see I admit as much in my post. I'm just saying Garth could make a pretty little chart about how MBJ likes GW employee X over GW employee Y and it wouldn't mean anything :P

[Lucrece]

Yes, you'll see I admit as much in my post. I'm just saying Garth could make a pretty little chart about how MBJ likes GW employee X over GW employee Y and it wouldn't mean anything :P

He could make a false chart, but I doubt he'd lock the debate if a conclusion had not been reached.

[Avatar Of War]

Yes, you'll see I admit as much in my post. I'm just saying Garth could make a pretty little chart about how MBJ likes GW employee X over GW employee Y and it wouldn't mean anything :P

Also Garthilk has a LOT more access to Mythic than we do.

There is actually the possibility he asked someone and got a response.

[Gemini]

If he did, he would share it and not just change the forums :P

Again, guys, I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just saying a pretty little picture dosn't make it "official".

[Lucrece]

If he did, he would share it :P Again, guys, I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just saying a pretty little picture dosn't make it "official".

You may not be saying he's wrong, but you are certainly implying he's being dishonest ;p.

[Avatar Of War]

If he did, he would share it and not just change the forums :P

Again, guys, I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just saying a pretty little picture dosn't make it "official".


I don't want this to spiral out of control, but as I said, maybe he has some kind of comfirmation but cant mention it, or how he got it.

He may feel its well within his perview to quash this. Especially because of the ire it brings.

If it was any other poster I might concede to your point. But since he is the head of Warhammer Alliance. i'm going to trust that his opinion is sound.

As is your right. you are more than allowed to disagree, but as far as these forums are concerned his word is law on the matter.

Believe what you will.

[Gemini]

You may not be saying he's wrong, but you are certainly implying he's being dishonest ;p.

It was not intentional to imply such things. I have the greatest of respect for Garth, and I do believe he is right. And even if somehow Mythic is just messing with us by leaving out the healing part, I would still not be trying to impeach him. I just made a simple comment stating that Garth isn't Mythic, and thus what he does isn't "official", unlike post I quoted up there stated.


I don't want this to spiral out of control, but as I said, maybe he has some kind of comfirmation but cant mention it, or how he got it.

He may feel its well within his perview to quash this. Especially because of the ire it brings.

If it was any other poster I might concede to your point. But since he is the head of Warhammer Alliance. i'm going to trust that his opinion is sound.

As is your right. you are more than allowed to disagree, but as far as these forums are concerned his word is law on the matter.

Believe what you will.

Yes, its a totally sound analysis. However, if he had information he couldn't share with us, he also probably couldn't change the forums :P I do trust his opinion, I'm not argueing with the locking of posts or any rules or anything, I really am sorry you guys think that, and I am quite aware his word is law here at WHA.

I'm sorry to people who misinterpreted my post and think I mean some offense to Garth, but that was not the case at all. If it had been anyone else besides a Mythic or GOA employee I woulda made the exact same post as I did before, just with a diffrent name. There was nothing underhanded or inflamitory intended in that post, I was just correcting a simple misconception. Can we get back to talking about the video now, or should discussion of my post spill over into page 8?

[Lucrece]

It was not intentional to imply such things. I have the greatest of respect for Garth, and I do believe he is right. And even if somehow Mythic is just messing with us by leaving out the healing part, I would still not be trying to impeach him. I just made a simple comment stating that Garth isn't Mythic, and thus what he does isn't "official", unlike post I quoted up there stated.
I'm sorry to people who misinterpreted my post and think I mean some offense to Garth, but that was not the case at all. If it had been anyone else besides a Mythic or GOA employee I woulda made the exact same post as I did before.

*snickers* Don't get so shaken, silly; I just said that to see your reaction:twisted:. Yes, technically it's not official until Mythic publicly announces it, you're right. But for all intents and purposes of sorcerer archetype debates in the warhammer alliance's forum, Gar's assertion should be sufficient, though.

[Shandris]

The reasoning is pretty simple really, too much of destruction is gender restricted already and so far none of order is. Sure they could keep restricting the genders, but they care more about not having one side outpopulate the other 10 to 1 in an RVR game where populations matter. This is an area where lore needs to take a back seat to game mechanics, the quality of the game is more important.

In my experience with MMOs....guys play both male and female chars (male cuz they are males irl ofc, and females cuz theyre usually sexy, which is aesthetically pleasing) and women irl pretty much just play female chars. So while I could see the possibility of it messing up population balance (specifically class population balance), I just dont believe its likely to happen.

Alternatively, what if we had more gender-specific classes? I think that would be an additional part of this game that could be revolutionary and an interesting twist. Hell, even if it was absolutely clear that there was the POSSIBILITY of male sorcerers, wouldnt it be cool for a ton of the classes to be gender specific? The only drawback for this would be one less choice in distinguishing your char from other chars of the same class in appearance, but I think they totally are addressing that with the trophy system. While I totally agree that its imbalanced right now of gender-specific classes from destruction to order, I'd much rather they make more gender-specific classes or none at all, because its just weird how it is right now. The dwarven women look weird, the male sorcerer looks weird, and I cant imagine too many of the chaos (especially maurader or chosen) being female, so I hope they take more time in looking at this gender stuff (both in lore and in gameplay) because it could be a big turn-on or turn-off for myself and others....

[Arkane]

I would imagine they are pretty set with their career and gender choices so I doubt they would change now.

[Gemini]

Arkane;558129']I would imagine they are pretty set with their career and gender choices so I doubt they would change now.

Recent interview at a convention, think it was with Eva Vix, said they are taking a look at some gender restricted classes, but not Witch Elves, obviously.

[Xurré]

Xurre is gonna be so pissed...
That’s an understatement. They couldn’t have gotten the Sorceress more wrong if they purposely set out to get it wrong.* What they’re describing in that podcast isn’t a dark elf Sorceress, it’s a Bright Wizard.


The only explanation I can think of is that the Sorceror is the Dark Elf healer class, and that he has to find a balance between using powerful spells and supporting his allies, otherwise he'll use too much power, damage himself, and will have to spend time trying to heal himself instead.
That would be very nice if that were the case, but I think you’re fooling yourself. What they described doesn’t sound like a support class at all; it doesn’t sound like a druchii Sorceress at all.

You’re right, it doesn’t add up. But apparently Mythic flunked math.


Quoting as everyone seems to forget this little fact.
And you seem to be forgetting the little fact that they’re looking mainly at 4th edition because the lore was richer. But on this one point of male Sorcerers, the current edition’s lore is actually richer. So it would be diminishing the lore to go back to 4th edition on this one point (and considering that it’s addition doesn’t conflict with anything in 4th edition either there’s no reason, lore-wise, for them to go this route).


If the Sorc is RDPS, that still gives me hope for Beastmasters as support!
That’s pretty much the only hope I have left. Beastmaster as support is pretty much the only support class (considering the Sorceress isn’t) which wouldn’t make me violently vomit in disgust.

It’s a very odd fit for the Beastmaster to be support, but not any weirder than the Sorceress as ranged damage.


From what I've seen from the podcasts, they first had the idea of making sorcceress's female only (and applying the prophecy), but because they also made male concept art and they found it 'cool' they looked into the lore and saw that the prophecy didn't always existed, thus making male sorcerers allowable.
That’s a really, really poor reason for including a class, particularly if it causes problems with the lore. Not to mention that if they really think the art is so very cool (and I personally don’t think it is as I feel the male Sorceress looks rather bland) then they could always have used it for NPCs.

After all, male Sorcerers exist, it just doesn’t make any sense to have them played by players (right next to Black Guards and likely getting to do missions and gain influence rewards from Malekith later on).


The mechanic is not a debuff; it is rather a limit bar that encourages players to consider going all out with high risks, or pace themselves and possibly throw some CC/Debuffs around. The mechanic is also not detrimental to an RDPS class as long as the benefits outweight the negatives. I could see sorcerers as having the strongest burst damage/incremental potential capabilities, but having them at the consequence of frailty, which suits the physically weaker (humans are stronger; elves are more skilled due to mental capabilities and lifespan) elves.
But elves being far more skilled due to mental capabilities is exactly the problem. That means that magic, even Dark Magic, is far, far, far less likely to go wrong for them because their superior mental capabilities is keeping it under control.

The system of blowing themselves up accidentally might work for human Bright Wizards, who, being human, have a far weaker grasp on magic and thus things are for more likely to go wrong. Heck, it might even work for Greenskins whose Whaaagh magic is inherently extremely volatile (and things tend to blow up for Greenskins much more often anyway).

For dark elves it just doesn’t make any sense; it’s not dark elves they’re describing at all, it’s humans with no understanding of magic or no willpower to keep it under control.


Unless it goes something like this:

DARK MAGIC
DARK MAGIC
DARK MAGIC

I think I'm gonna explode, so I'm going to lower my "suicide" bar by healing

HEAL
HEAL
DARK MAGIC
DARK MAGIC
I think you’re looking at things backwards (which is understandable since you probably want to see healing being included for them).

With the Warhammer healing classes the point isn’t to encourage players to do less damage so that they can do some healing now and again too, it’s to encourage players to do less healing and do some damage too. Otherwise the class will just be required to “and I heal, and I heal, and I heal” all the time.

If it was that dark elf Sorceresses had a chance of blowing themselves up the more healing they do and they have to do damage to release some pressure then you might be right. But it isn’t described like that.

I will agree on one thing (with you and a few others) though and that is that they’re not telling us something. After all, what is the Sorceress supposed to be doing while she’s not blowing stuff up as she’s waiting for the risk to subside some?


Well its official its RDPS
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2817 (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/../gallery/showimage.php?i=2817)
What is the source of that chart? If it isn’t directly from Mythic (and as others have suggested it comes from Garth playing around in Photoshop) then it doesn’t mean anything. Otherwise that chart also confirms the White Lion, which I think they might be interested in over at the High Elves’ forum.


- Xurré


* With the exception of the concept art, which does look very nice.

[Alota]

Xurré, I can't see any point in your post I can disagree about. And indeed, that chart doesn't come from Mythic as they didn't announce the White Lion yet (heck, they're announcing that class last) Didn't notice it before, so I assumed it was given out by Mythic, but it isn't.
I demand that the support/ranged topics are reopened, unless Garth proves this is indeed from Mythic!

And yeah, the mechanic sounds cool but not for the sorceress. Sorceress's are one of the most powerfull magic users, they barely make a mistake. This looks more like Gut Magic (which has every spell have a chance when even succesfully cast to blow the caster up) from the Ogres. And ofcourse Waaagh, which when fails uses another chart than the normal miscast chart. And ofcourse Dark Elves in general are one of the most powerfull magic casters (they're probably even stronger than Archmages, but only use one school of magic, which is Dark Magic)

And indeed, the male sorcerer art being 'cool' (which isn't, looks bland and to much like the Matrix) shouldn't be the decision to make them available as a PC. Lore > Art, always

[Seldaren]

it doesn’t sound like a druchii Sorceress at all.

Subtract the bit about blowing themselves up, does that sounds like a DE Sorc? I think it does.

And Dhar is inherently dangerous, even to DE. There's a point where even a DE cannot draw any more magic, and that is what the description is getting at.

Warhammer Magic is dangerous stuff, even to Elves. Elves have obviously trained with it much longer, and mastered it, but Dhar is the nearly the pure stuff of Chaos. It's an uncontrollable "substance".

If you were to place a "limit bar" on it, the Elf bar would obviously be much higher than the Human one. But it is still there, it's just that generally Elves know not to get near it. They are actually aware of where the bar is, whereas Humans do not.

So the existence of the "bar" for Dark Elves is an indication of their Mastery of Dhar. They know exactly how much they can control. In the Lore and Novels and such, they don't go near their limit so it's never talked about. As if they exceed it, death is likely to follow. And death is (generally) permanant in the Novels and Lore.
But in an MMO where death is fleeting, the "bar" can be taken advantage of and used stragetically. Players don't really care if their onscreen avatar goes *boom*.

I think some of you are taking something of a shortsighted approach to the DE news we have recieved. There is more to the Lore than has been documented in the Army Books and Novels. We do not have an Enclyopedia Druchii.
The TableTop Lore is very much focused on what occurs on a table between little figures. It obviously does not go into every aspect of Druchii Society.

One of the benefits of WAR is that it is expanding on our knowledge of the Warhammer Races. Showing us aspects that are not touched on in other Sources for Lore.
Everything that I have read so far makes sense, and sounds reasonable. I see no "dumbing down".

Sorceress's are one of the most powerfull magic users, they barely make a mistake.

There is no "mistake" implied. It is a choice. Which is the correct way to handle something like this. I do not believe there is any randomness here. Randomness with this sort of thing is a bad idea.
That is why Shaman and Bright Wizards cannot blow themselves up accidently. It would be a horrid, horrid idea.
It appears that Sorcs can make a conscious decision to harm themselves with Dhar. They can intentionally pull too much so that it physically hurts them. It's entirely possible there will be different levels of harm too.

This is the only way to logically handle the "feedback" that can happen with Warhammer Magic. Make it not a random thing, but a thing that player can control.
And as far as the Lore goes, only an Elf would be able to control it. And only a Dark Elf would intentionally harm themselves with it.

[Emeraldw99]

What is the source of that chart? If it isn’t directly from Mythic (and as others have suggested it comes from Garth playing around in Photoshop) then it doesn’t mean anything. Otherwise that chart also confirms the White Lion, which I think they might be interested in over at the High Elves’ forum.
.

Garth wouldn't lock down a thread and post that chart unless there was a real reason. He has more communication with Mythic than we do and it could very well be official and White Lions are not secret anymore as there is a picture of them in battle in an official poster. We know they are in, thats why he added a board for them.


And you seem to be forgetting the little fact that they’re looking mainly at 4th edition because the lore was richer. But on this one point of male Sorcerers, the current edition’s lore is actually richer. So it would be diminishing the lore to go back to 4th edition on this one point (and considering that it’s addition doesn’t conflict with anything in 4th edition either there’s no reason, lore-wise, for them to go this route).
Well, GW approved it didn't they? They also want to give people options of what to play. Why restrict it to females if there isn't anything that says they have too? (like in the 4th edition). Also, if there is a blood priest, GW will have approved that too.

[Alota]

Seldaren, every magic has a chance to blow up. In TT this is represented by miscasts (if you roll two 1's when casting a spell, you need to throw on the miscast table, which has things like the wizard blowing up, or being taken in a vortex) This is for ALL magic users (only Slanns and Lyches are able to never get a miscast) Ok, High Elves will probably controll their magic in such a way that the chance is very slim, but there's still a chance, especially for humans and goblins. Sorceress's might use a very dangerous magicstyle, but they practiced it in such a way that it isn't more dangerous than a human using the lore of fire, or a goblin using Waaagh magic. All magic kinds (except for the incantations of Lych's) are dangerous to use for the caster himself. The most hurtfull lore for the caster himself is the Ogre's Gut-magic, who don't need to miscast to hurt the caster.
So Dark-magic might be dangerous, but Dark Elves learned how to use it, making it as dangerous for the caster as every other school of magic.

[Alota]

Garth wouldn't lock down a thread and post that chart unless there was a real reason. He has more communication with Mythic than we do and it could very well be official and White Lions are not secret anymore as there is a picture of them in battle in an official poster. We know they are in, thats why he added a board for them.

He could at least give a source for this chart, which he didn't, thus makes it unreliable. And putting in the White Lions only makes it more unreliable, even though everyone knows about now WL's are in even though Mythic didn't confirm it yet.

Well, GW approved it didn't they? They also want to give people options of what to play. Why restrict it to females if there isn't anything that says they have too? (like in the 4th edition). Also, if there is a blood priest, GW will have approved that too.

It seems GW doesn't really care anymore and just approve about anything. If GW allows a Blood Priest, it just shows us that they don't care about their lore and only about sales, because they're not aiming at the people who play Warhammer, they're aiming at the MMO players.

[Seldaren]

Seldaren, every magic has a chance to blow up. In TT this is represented by miscasts

I am aware. But I believe that having something like a "miscast" in an MMO RvR game would be a bad mechanic. It would hurt gameplay and generally cause unneeded problems.

And you'll notice that no magic users in the game have a "miscast". The Sorcerer mechanic does not sounds like a miscast. It is not random. It's intentional.

Yes, DE Sorcs can control their magic. They have the knowledge of at what point it becomes uncontrollable. Even for a DE, there is a point at which Dhar becomes uncontrollable. They cannot just pull it at will, there is a point at even which they will lost control and things will backfire.

But what I'm trying to explain is that they know *exactly* where that point is. Their training and use has shown them the "no return" point, the point where even their highly refined Elven psyche can no longer control the Chaos and Madness that is Dhar.

They point may well be 300% more than a Human, but that point still exists.

And yes the Human Magus uses Dhar as well, but they have the Divine Protection of Tzeentch. Tzeentch only gives them as much as they can reasonable control.
Dark Elves reach out and grab Dhar, bending it to their will. The Magus recieves it via the "blessings" of Tzeentch.

I think it is great that Mythic is portraying the danger of Warhammer Magic, and they are doing in such as way as to not hurt gameplay. It's a rather elegant comprimise in my opinion.

[Megad00mer]

I'd bet money that the male sorcerer thing is a nice preview of the retcon that's to come in the next Dark Elf army book for the tabletop game. Expect to see a male sorcerer model come out and the army book to mention both male and female sorcerorss with no mention of a prophecy.

[Xurré]

Subtract the bit about blowing themselves up, does that sounds like a DE Sorc? I think it does.
And I think it doesn’t… at least it sounds like a Sorceress who only uses 10% of the powers available to her. And that doesn’t sound like a druchii at all.

Warhammer Magic is dangerous stuff, even to Elves. Elves have obviously trained with it much longer, and mastered it, but Dhar is the nearly the pure stuff of Chaos. It's an uncontrollable "substance".
If that is true then why don’t the other magic using classes have a “blow yourself up” bar (or a “randomly get chaos mutations” bar or whatever)? Particularly things like Whaaagh magic which is inherently described as being far more volatile than any other form of magic and things like human wizards using magic where humans are one of the least capable magic using races (ignoring dwarfs).

To give such a bar to the dark elves only is sending the message “dark elves are the least capable magic users in the Warhammer world, to the point that they risk blowing themselves up”.

Also, don’t forget that Dark Magic isn’t going to be any stronger in the game than Bright Magic in the end, where it’s supposed to be one of the most powerful forms of magic (to the point that dark elves would forsake the use of High Magic, which was also available to them, for it). I would’ve much preferred them going the same route as with High Magic and saying that it’s so powerful because you can go many ways with it.

What makes Dark Magic dangerous is not that it’s an efficient way to blow stuff up and it’s not that it has the risk of blowing yourself up… what makes it dangerous is that it undermines the very winds of magic, that it deals with demonic entities, that it requires an incredible amount of willpower to even employ, that it attacks the mental as well as the physical. In short the dangers are all long term, not this silly short term “you might blow yourself up”. That’s a limited human way to see danger.

The TableTop Lore is very much focused on what occurs on a table between little figures. It obviously does not go into every aspect of Druchii Society.
Exactly, which is why we should look beyond the tabletop rules. For instance, when we look at why the dark elves and the high elves split up to begin with… this had a lot to do with the dark elves no longer wanting to use High Magic but using Dark Magic instead. Where would be the sense of that if all dark magic allows you to do is blow stuff up? The dark elves, ever the pragmatists, aren’t that stupid to forsake a form of magic for one that’s only destructive like that. Dark Magic isn’t just one wind of magic like Bright Magic… it’s just as capable at doing things as High Magic is. It just does it by trying to circumvent the laws of magic, by dealing with chaotic forces directly, then by trying to operate in harmony with it.

But apparently in WAR the dark elf Sorceresses have forgotten all about the fact that they can heal, that they can take debuff enemies by making them writhe in pain, that they can take complete control of enemies, dominating them, and all kinds of other powers which haven’t been mentioned in the tabletop rules. Instead they’re cheapened into being little more than evil Bright Wizards who love to blow stuff up and do little else? Don’t’ get me wrong, I like Bright Wizards… but that’s because that single-mindedness fits with the humans. It doesn’t fit with the dark elves at all.

One of the benefits of WAR is that it is expanding on our knowledge of the Warhammer Races. Showing us aspects that are not touched on in other Sources for Lore.
That would be true if they’d actually stick to the lore that is specified and did this expanding while maintaining the flavour presented by the lore.

As it is what they’re doing is no better than some ill-conceived fan-fiction. Who knows, we might get Pokeballs next. :roll:

There is no "mistake" implied. It is a choice.
A choice no dark elf would ever take; no dark elf would willingly blow themselves up (or heck, even just damage themselves) to achieve something like this. After all, what’s the point of regaining Ulthuan if you’re too dead to enjoy it?


Garth wouldn't lock down a thread and post that chart unless there was a real reason. He has more communication with Mythic than we do and it could very well be official and White Lions are not secret anymore as there is a picture of them in battle in an official poster. We know they are in, thats why he added a board for them.
That’s just wrong on so many levels…

First of all Garth has been wrong before. He seemed to be convinced that there wouldn’t be any Witch Elves either (based, supposedly, on leaked beta information). Secondly, if he does indeed have that amount of contact with Mythic (and while I’m sure they’re on good terms I doubt that they tell him secrets they’re not telling anyone else) then I seriously doubt he’d just go around and spill the beans like this. And third, what he put in the graph is no more than what most everyone is expecting anyway; White Lions as High Elf melee damage and Sorceress as the dark elf ranged damage class (and yes, I’ve already said that I think Mythic is foolish enough to implement them like that). That doesn’t make it “proof” in any way, shape or form, just putting in a graphic what most everyone is thinking anyway.

Well, GW approved it didn't they? They also want to give people options of what to play. Why restrict it to females if there isn't anything that says they have too? (like in the 4th edition). Also, if there is a blood priest, GW will have approved that too.
I have absolutely no faith in Games Workshop anymore. I did before because people in the community kept saying that Games Workshop keeps a close eye on their IP and would make certain Mythic isn’t doing anything horrid with it.

But so far I haven’t seen any proof of that. Any keeping with the lore seems to be more Mythic self-censoring things and only including thing they think will pass mustard, but from Games Workshop I haven’t seen anything where they say “no, you’re not allowed to do that since it wouldn’t fit the setting very well”. Heck, if anything then this, as well as the novels, proves that Games Workshop doesn’t really give a rat’s about what people do with the lore; they probably see it that only things they publish directly are “official”.

As for WAR their interest seems to end at jumping on the MMO bandwagon and trying to cash in on the success of games like WoW, as well as using it to advertise their tabletop product. Only when Games Workshop starts showing any actual real involvement in maintaining the background and the feeing of the setting (beyond just “yeah, we’re cool with whatever”) will “Games Workshop approved it” carry any weight with me.

Even if they don’t care for their own setting I at least still do.


- Xurré

[Seldaren]

A choice no dark elf would ever take; no dark elf would willingly blow themselves up (or heck, even just damage themselves) to achieve something like this. After all, what’s the point of regaining Ulthuan if you’re too dead to enjoy it?

It's not a Dark Elf making the choice, it's the human player. They will willingly make that choice, as they will just respawn back at the War Camp. This is very much a MMO RvR mechanic, don't look at it in RP terms.

In general, you have to take the RP filter off for somethings. Things that work in RP will not work in an MMO RvR game.

That's why Bright Wizards and Shaman do not blow themselves up. Because to keep with the Lore, it would be a basically random sort of thing. Something that would be extremely irrating and annoying for players. It would be an uncontrollable aspect of their character. No one wants that.

DE Sorcs having the "bar" does not indicate they are somehow weaker in magic. It will hopefully be offset by their magic being a bit stronger. We haven't seen any numbers to indicate this, so I am just guessing. But there has to be a balance for the self-damage thing.

And I think it doesn’t… at least it sounds like a Sorceress who only uses 10% of the powers available to her. And that doesn’t sound like a druchii at all

We have not seen any sort of spell list for DEs. Just because they are the Ranged DPS career does not mean they don't have other tricks up their sleeve.
They could well have debuffs and soul stealing life draining spells. The description we see does not indicate much of anything. But I imagine we'll see spells straight from the Dark Magic list.

And I think it doesn’t… at least it sounds like a Sorceress who only uses 10% of the powers available to her. And that doesn’t sound like a druchii at all.

This is a necessary balance thing for a MMO RvR game.
In the same vein, Chaos Chosen are not as superior as they are in the TableTop. Lots of things had to be "debuffed" in order to fit properly into the MMO RvR genre.

[Xurré]

It's not a Dark Elf making the choice, it's the human player. They will willingly make that choice, as they will just respawn back at the War Camp. This is very much a MMO RvR mechanic, don't look at it in RP terms.
I will look at it in RP terms since that’s the primary reason to play this game. Implementing game mechanics that make little sense in roleplaying because you have to (like respawning) is one thing, but implementing game mechanics that actively encourage players to not roleplay by giving them powerful options which go counter the general mindset of the race they’re playing is quite another.

Things that work in RP will not work in an MMO RvR game.
Luckily this isn’t just an MMO RvR; it’s an MMORPG game with RvR. So yes, RPG is incredibly important and it’s been given the shove way too much and way too often already. Might as well just give them laserguns while we’re at it; would undoubtedly make for a great MMO RvR mechanic. :roll:

This is a necessary balance thing for a MMO RvR game.
I keep hearing that and I’m getting utterly sick of that argument. Particularly because there’s no reason why it needed to be balanced like this.

After all, apparently they could perfectly well do Archmages with their powerful and versatile magic in the game; they didn’t have to restrict them to just the Lore of Fire and make them a ranged dps career focused on blowing things up. They could’ve done pretty much the exact same thing for dark elf Sorceresses.

Heck, if you want your “player option to over-extend themselves” (despite it being a bad idea to include altogether) you could even have them collect too many souls which draws the attention of demonic forces more powerful than they can control or something along those lines. But there is zero reason to put Sorceresses in the ranged damage role, even for “MMO RvR balance”.


- Xurré

[Lord Tareq]

Now now, I really think you are overreacting a tad Xurré. Wether or not the sorceress in WAR will resemble the sorceress in Warhammer depends completely on her arsenal of spells, and the effects they have, of which we have no information yet. The mechanic itself perfectly suits the warhammer dark elf sorceress. If you use more powerdice, you have a higher chance of a miscast. The only odd thing is that all casters should have this, but then all casters would be very much alike, and Dhar magic is the most dangerous lore. But its mainly a matter of gameplay mechanics.
I think in principle the mechanic is sound, especially with the announcement of GW some time ago that Dark Magic in Warhammer will get an overhaul with the new Dark Elf armybook to become far more destructive then it currently is.

[Emeraldw99]

I will look at it in RP terms since that’s the primary reason to play this game. Implementing game mechanics that make little sense in roleplaying because you have to (like respawning) is one thing, but implementing game mechanics that actively encourage players to not roleplay by giving them powerful options which go counter the general mindset of the race they’re playing is quite another.


Up to this point i listiened to you because you seemed like a knowledgeable person. In fact you had me believing that Sorc would be support. Well, you were wrong. In fact, it seems like you want something more akin to second life only set in warhammer. RP isn't the draw. No seriously, it isn't. RP is a fun thing to do, but it is not the real reason many will play the game, it is one reason sure, but not the overlying reason.


Luckily this isn’t just an MMO RvR; it’s an MMORPG game with RvR. So yes, RPG is incredibly important and it’s been given the shove way too much and way too often already. Might as well just give them laserguns while we’re at it; would undoubtedly make for a great MMO RvR mechanic. :roll:

Rpg is a term used to describe certain game mechanics, like a party system or level building, hence the reason you can have an action rpg. The actual roleplaying aspect has be lessened over the years through console games and to be honest, almost any game you play could be called an RPG as you are playing through the main characters eyes.


I keep hearing that and I’m getting utterly sick of that argument. Particularly because there’s no reason why it needed to be balanced like this.

After all, apparently they could perfectly well do Archmages with their powerful and versatile magic in the game; they didn’t have to restrict them to just the Lore of Fire and make them a ranged dps career focused on blowing things up. They could’ve done pretty much the exact same thing for dark elf Sorceresses.

Heck, if you want your “player option to over-extend themselves” (despite it being a bad idea to include altogether) you could even have them collect too many souls which draws the attention of demonic forces more powerful than they can control or something along those lines. But there is zero reason to put Sorceresses in the ranged damage role, even for “MMO RvR balance”.


- XurréDo you even read your writing anymore? It seems like your getting more and more hostile with Mythic and GW and other points of view. Have you read the stuff by Anglahak? He's shown there is enough lore and backing for even the blood priest, the idea you hate the most. Finally, let's give GW a little bit of leeway. They are trying to cater to the MMO crowd, thats where the money is. Because, let's face it, GW is in the business of making money. I'm sure they would like to maintain integrity but I'm not so sure it's been "broken" by either male sorcerers or the blood priest. Simply a greater exploration of the lore.

The mechanic makes sense and I find it very interesting game play option. Having to not only watch the enemy but yourself as both weapons that could kill you is creative. Lore or not, it makes for good MMO gaming and that is important.

[Seldaren]

But there is zero reason to put Sorceresses in the ranged damage role, even for “MMO RvR balance”.

There's plenty of reasons to put them in the Ranged DPS role. It's the only role they really fit in, IMO. The majority of the Dark Magic spells involve hurting things, and disabling things.
There's a single self-heal soul steal spell. That would have to be tweaked quite a bit to make them into a Healer. I imagine that would be a worse infraction to the Lore than what they've done.

We haven't seen the Sorc spell list yet. It's entirely possible that they do more than just "blow things up".
The Magus spell list is more than "blowing things up".
I would hope that the debuffing aspect of Dark Magic is included. You can only have so many pure damage spells. The Dark Magic spells are rather "utility" based, and it will be interesting to see how they are implemented.

None of the careers in WAR are "one trick ponies". They are capable of many things.
We know there will be something like three masteries per Career. There could be some interesting options for the Sorc.

And if you are upset now... then you probably need to prepare yourself for the 4th career. As all signs point to some sort of Khainite Healer.

[Alota]

There's plenty of reasons to put them in the Ranged DPS role. It's the only role they really fit in, IMO. The majority of the Dark Magic spells involve hurting things, and disabling things.
There's a single self-heal soul steal spell. That would have to be tweaked quite a bit to make them into a Healer. I imagine that would be a worse infraction to the Lore than what they've done.

We haven't seen the Sorc spell list yet. It's entirely possible that they do more than just "blow things up".
The Magus spell list is more than "blowing things up".
I would hope that the debuffing aspect of Dark Magic is included. You can only have so many pure damage spells. The Dark Magic spells are rather "utility" based, and it will be interesting to see how they are implemented.

None of the careers in WAR are "one trick ponies". They are capable of many things.
We know there will be something like three masteries per Career. There could be some interesting options for the Sorc.

And if you are upset now... then you probably need to prepare yourself for the 4th career. As all signs point to some sort of Khainite Healer.

First: you say it yourself. The only 2 classes in the game who also can heal are the WP and the Zealot (aka Chaos Shaman, although I don't even think Shamans can really heal) ALL the other healers we got atm normally don't got healing. The Sorceress has more healing capabilities than those other healers who normally can't heal. Heck, Morathi is a sorceress and she healed Malekith through magic and she taught the Dark Arts to the Dark Elves. So the sorceress is the best choise for healing.
Second: The only reason to implent a Khainite healer is to 'balance' out to WP. But this can be balanced out even by making a non-melee healer. Thus why use the best class for healing and put it in the dps archtype? It's not logical and will also end up in loreraping.

[Seldaren]

The only 2 classes in the game who also can heal are the WP and the Zealot

I assume by "game" you mean the TableTop game, right?

This is one of the places were you cannot look at the TableTop. There is little to no healing there, because of the way Wounds and such are balanced. That sort of balance cannot carry over to an MMO RvR game.

What we are missing is a non-Empire, non-Chaos focused WFRP book. If there was a DE installment of that, we would probably already know what the Healer career was (and it likely would not be the Sorc).

The Zealot was pretty much already defined in the WFRP thing for Chaos, so I imagine that's basically where that came from. As there is some sort of Norse Shaman thing in there.

The only 2 classes in the game who also can heal are the WP and the Zealot

It's one spell. And it is a Self-Heal. The Sorc doesn't heal other units.

[Alota]

I assume by "game" you mean the TableTop game, right?

This is one of the places were you cannot look at the TableTop. There is little to no healing there, because of the way Wounds and such are balanced. That sort of balance cannot carry over to an MMO RvR game.

What we are missing is a non-Empire, non-Chaos focused WFRP book. If there was a DE installment of that, we would probably already know what the Healer career was (and it likely would not be the Sorc).

The Zealot was pretty much already defined in the WFRP thing for Chaos, so I imagine that's basically where that came from. As there is some sort of Norse Shaman thing in there.



It's one spell. And it is a Self-Heal. The Sorc doesn't heal other units.

By game I indeed mean TT. Btw, somehow I read you said the WP and Zealot can heal, but I misread (am busy with multipile threads and other things, so things like this can happen) so nvm my first comment.
However, still, the Warhammer lore doesn't mention that Greenskin Shamans can heal, neither does the Runepriest. The lore does say that Morathi healed Malekith, and Morathi is a sorceress who taught the Dark Elves how to use Dark Magic.
And indeed, the Zealot comes from the Norse Shaman, but then corrupted

[Xurré]

Dhar magic is the most dangerous lore.
Only to non-dark elves; to the dark elves it's just as dangerous as any other lore is to the other races. If Mythic really wants to have this "accidentally blow yourself up" mechanic (and not have it for every caster) then it makes a lot more sense to include it for the greenskins, whose magic is generally far more volatile. Including it for the dark elves paints the picture of "dark elves don't really know what the hell they're doing with magic". Heck, even Bright Wizards are having a much easier, much safer time casting the same power-level spells as the druchii do.

Then there's the whole point as to painting Dark Magic, one of the main reasons the Dark Elves separated themselves off from the High Elves, as nothing more than a means to destroy things. Would any intelligent being (and I hope it goes without saying that the dark elves are very intelligent) forsake something as useful and versatile as High Magic for something that can only blow stuff to pieces?

especially with the announcement of GW some time ago that Dark Magic in Warhammer will get an overhaul with the new Dark Elf armybook to become far more destructive then it currently is.
I hadn't heard that, and to be honest I think that's a mistake; I already think that Dark Magic as it is is way too focused on destruction (since, as I pointed out above, it doesn't make any sense for the intelligent dark elves to let go of High Magic just to be able to destroy things better).


Up to this point i listiened to you because you seemed like a knowledgeable person. In fact you had me believing that Sorc would be support. Well, you were wrong. In fact, it seems like you want something more akin to second life only set in warhammer. RP isn't the draw. No seriously, it isn't. RP is a fun thing to do, but it is not the real reason many will play the game, it is one reason sure, but not the overlying reason.
You're making no sense here... what does Second Life have to do with roleplaying?

For the rest there might be many who don't play the game for roleplaying, but there's also many who play the game because of it. And I'd say that for many even if they don't play it for roleplaying then the roleplaying is important, or why else play this game and not another.

It seems like your getting more and more hostile with Mythic and GW and other points of view.
I've been very lenient with what Mythic and GW have been doing I feel, I've shown them every thrust and given them my faith... and they've trampled all over it in the worst fashion (there is a sliver of hope still, but at the moment it doesn't look promising for the final class). Yes, I'm hostile towards them... they've earned it.

Have you read the stuff by Anglahak? He's shown there is enough lore and backing for even the blood priest, the idea you hate the most.
Is that the stuff about how the 4th edition sourcebook supposedly supports Khainite healers? I hadn't gotten around to replying to that yet, but I'll say that selecting quoting and twisted interpretations don't make for any proof.

Finally, let's give GW a little bit of leeway. They are trying to cater to the MMO crowd, thats where the money is. Because, let's face it, GW is in the business of making money. I'm sure they would like to maintain integrity but I'm not so sure it's been "broken" by either male sorcerers or the blood priest. Simply a greater exploration of the lore.
Except that they could've chosen the path which satisfies both the "MMO crowd" and the lore. But at the moment it seems neither of them put in the effort to look for a solution (which is most definitely there as has been shown repeatedly) that satisfies both (and all) criteria. It seems that they just took the easy way out of sticking with the first solution that satisfied their goal of making money, and yes that pisses me off. And it shows that any faith I had in Mythic seems to be misplaced.


There's plenty of reasons to put them in the Ranged DPS role. It's the only role they really fit in, IMO. The majority of the Dark Magic spells involve hurting things, and disabling things.
And people keep accusing me of only looking at the tabletop rules (which I haven't done at all, all I've said on this is based on the larger lore surrounding them). Anyway, we could go back-and-forth (again) on how they really fit best as support, but I doubt that'd get us anywhere anymore anyway.

But as I've said by far the biggest problem I have with this is that it leaves no class for the support role as Sorceress is the only one that would even remotely work. That by far is the greatest atrocity here.

And if you are upset now... then you probably need to prepare yourself for the 4th career. As all signs point to some sort of Khainite Healer.
I am prepared, but I doubt anyone else is.


- Xurré

[Arkane]

I understand that you love the lore, and many do, but the lore will , more times than not, get the shaft when it comes to fun, gameplay, and popularity. I followed Age of Conan for a while. Not because the game intrigued me on its own, but because I have read every single Conan book and almost all of Robert E. Howards works. I was and still am a lore fanatic. At the same time though, I am an MMORPG fanatic as well. They changed a lot of stuff around dealing with the game that just doesn't exactly fit with the lore but instead of getting pissy I accepted what they did for a variety of reasons.

1) They have made video games before and they understand what works and what doesn't far better than I do despite the fact that I truly do believe I know a ton about MMOs.

2) Lore doesn't always make a decent MMORPG. Having no healers for any race, or having 1 healer per faction makes for an imbalanced game, and horrible end game.

3) It is honestly too far into development for them to change mechanics around with a Q2 launch date just because of three or four people complaining on a forum.

4) They are allowed to pull lore from any book, and any edition so long as Games Workshop approves of it. If Games Workshop had said no to male sorcs, they would not be in the game. Stop getting angry at Mythic and go take it out on a Games Workshop forum.

5) Despite the strong lore behind the game, the other poster was right in saying that the majority of people they are going to make money off of will not care much for the lore. Most MMOs RP Servers are not the most popular. PvP itself tends to have the most users.

6) Now that we have moved past the lore part, lets touch on the mechanics of it. If you want to complain about mechanics... WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE TRIED THEM FIRST.

[dutch_gamer]

I am in agreement with Xurré. For people who are into lore, the lore matters a lot. The lore doesn't matter for non-roleplayers, so why should they care if Mythic and GW would embrace the lore? Most people who will play the game will not care about the lore, so it shouldn't matter to them if they do make a class around existing lore or if they don't. If those people don't care, then why frustrate the people who do care about the lore? The game won't be any less fun if they would embrace the lore more than they seem to be doing right now.

Mythic and GW have had their chance giving the Blood Monkey fans a melee healer, but then it should have been Chaos. Chaos is far more upfront anyway and it wouldn't have been against lore in any way. To me it seems that Mythic has pretty much free rein in what they want to create. GW has their say in it, but based on the latest interview with Mogensen, it shows that GW doesn't really want to say no to most ideas, even if it does against the lore. Based on that alone, I think Xurré has every right to be upset about this. One would have thought that GW would have protected their IP far more than they seem to be doing right now. Although in retrospect, the Malus Darkblade books show that GW allows any author to alter a whole lot without GW doing something about it. I would have been nice for once, to see an IP being treated with the respect it deserves, instead of creating some new when it is not necessary.

I understand that you love the lore, and many do, but the lore will , more times than not, get the shaft when it comes to fun, gameplay, and popularity

True, but they could have made the Zealot into the melee healer and there was no need to make a male Sorcerer. The male Sorcerer does seem to show they care more about men not being able to play their own gender, instead of women not being able to play their own gender. They have two gender specific careers on Chaos, which are favorable to men, yet when lore dictates female gender specific, they are making an exception. And they are doing this, even when there is no lore against the inclusion of female Chosen and Maruaders. They may not look good enough according to them, but I don't think the Sorcerer looks cool either. When they, in their eyes, can make the male Sorcerer look cool, they most certainly should be capable of doing the exact same thing with a female Chosen and Marauder.

[Xurré]

I am in agreement with Xurré. For people who are into lore, the lore matters a lot. The lore doesn't matter for non-roleplayers, so why should they care if Mythic and GW would embrace the lore? Most people who will play the game will not care about the lore, so it shouldn't matter to them if they do make a class around existing lore or if they don't. If those people don't care, then why frustrate the people who do care about the lore? The game won't be any less fun if they would embrace the lore more than they seem to be doing right now.

Mythic and GW have had their chance giving the Blood Monkey fans a melee healer, but then it should have been Chaos. Chaos is far more upfront anyway and it wouldn't have been against lore in any way. To me it seems that Mythic has pretty much free rein in what they want to create. GW has their say in it, but based on the latest interview with Mogensen, it shows that GW doesn't really want to say no to most ideas, even if it does against the lore. Based on that alone, I think Xurré has every right to be upset about this. One would have thought that GW would have protected their IP far more than they seem to be doing right now. Although in retrospect, the Malus Darkblade books show that GW allows any author to alter a whole lot without GW doing something about it. I would have been nice for once, to see an IP being treated with the respect it deserves, instead of creating some new when it is not necessary.



True, but they could have made the Zealot into the melee healer and there was no need to make a male Sorcerer. The male Sorcerer does seem to show they care more about men not being able to play their own gender, instead of women not being able to play their own gender. They have two gender specific careers on Chaos, which are favorable to men, yet when lore dictates female gender specific, they are making an exception. And they are doing this, even when there is no lore against the inclusion of female Chosen and Maruaders. They may not look good enough according to them, but I don't think the Sorcerer looks cool either. When they, in their eyes, can make the male Sorcerer look cool, they most certainly should be capable of doing the exact same thing with a female Chosen and Marauder.
Thanks, Dutch. Always knew my (former) countrymen have level heads on their shoulders. ;)


- Xurré

[Alota]

All hail the Dutch! (yeah, I'm one too)

[Arkane]

Now I ask this question. If Mythic announces it OFFICIALLY as the Ranged DPS class for the Dark Elf, will you not play this game?

I ask because it seems like you understand it is a business, voice your opinion how disgusted you are, but the only way to hurt them would be to hurt them in their wallet and not play.

If you complain, complain, complain, and then still subscribe to their game, then they win, which just proves it was ok to stick it to the lore because they are still going to get their subs.

[Alota]

Well, I will probably still play it, but I'm not really a RPër (was thinking about it though, but if Mythic screws up I'll dismiss the RP) and more of a game player. I will be hugely dissappointed though and might even make a guild with no melee healers allowed (unless they're Beastmasters maybe) and still voice my opinion so that Mythic might not screw up again lorewise in future expansions

[Thrakkesh]

Arkane;559052']Now I ask this question. If Mythic announces it OFFICIALLY as the Ranged DPS class for the Dark Elf, will you not play this game?

I ask because it seems like you understand it is a business, voice your opinion how disgusted you are, but the only way to hurt them would be to hurt them in their wallet and not play.

If you complain, complain, complain, and then still subscribe to their game, then they win, which just proves it was ok to stick it to the lore because they are still going to get their subs.

It's worth pointing out that this isn't exactly true. In case you haven't noticed, Mythic just pushed the game back to add in a bunch of open RvR due to requests from gamers. Mythic does listen to its community.

[Arkane]

It's worth pointing out that this isn't exactly true. In case you haven't noticed, Mythic just pushed the game back to add in a bunch of open RvR due to requests from gamers. Mythic does listen to its community.
I didn't say they didn't listen to gamers. But, if only a minimal amount of people are complaining about a certain aspect, do you think they are going to address it if everyone else seems to be ok with it?

Also, they likely that bunhc of open rvr due to people in the beta complaining, not a small amount of people on these forums.

[Xurré]

Arkane;559052']Now I ask this question. If Mythic announces it OFFICIALLY as the Ranged DPS class for the Dark Elf, will you not play this game?

I ask because it seems like you understand it is a business, voice your opinion how disgusted you are, but the only way to hurt them would be to hurt them in their wallet and not play.

If you complain, complain, complain, and then still subscribe to their game, then they win, which just proves it was ok to stick it to the lore because they are still going to get their subs.
I don't believe in "voting with your wallet" as it's called; I don't think that has ever swayed any opinions one way or the other. Particularly not in cases like these where it's really the only option available. Voting with your wallet might work if there are roughly two equal options available (if there are two almost exactly the same Warhammer games, both sounding pretty much equally fun and balanced, but one sticks closer to the lore than the other, which one would you pick?) Voting only works if you actually cast your vote, which means there need to be other options to cast your vote on.

As it is I think that discussing things and letting Mythic now of our discontent with decisions like this is the only way in which to possibly affect change. Still not likely to happen, I agree, but Mythic I think has promised to listen to its players (as shown by the changes they're making to the RvR and as the suggested re-evaluation of some gender-restricted careers they might be doing).

So now I wan them to listen to me. And since what I'm asking for shouldn't affect the enjoyability of the game for anyone I don't think I'm asking too much either.


- Xurré

[Lucrece]

I don't believe in "voting with your wallet" as it's called; I don't

So now I wan them to listen to me. And since what I'm asking for shouldn't affect the enjoyability of the game for anyone I don't think I'm asking too much either.


- Xurré

It infringes on the enjoyability of those who don't want to play the sorceress as a healbot. Talk about damage capability all you like, but in the end the archetype will tell people what to expect of you, how you will be pressured to itemize, to specialize, and to play as.

I just think that adding the DE army with the requirement that all races have the 4 archetypes was a terribly unwise decision.

[Lord Tareq]

I'm a roleplayer myself, but I can forgive certain inconsequent mechanics for gameplays sake. I accept that roleplayers will always be a minority, and most people would rather have a better balanced game with unique careers then a game that adapts the fluff perfectly but makes all casters alike and has severe balance issues. For example shamans (though lorewise the most unreliable casters) really can't get a self-damage chance on spellcast, since that would undermine their support role too much.

Only to non-dark elves; to the dark elves it's just as dangerous as any other lore is to the other races. If Mythic really wants to have this "accidentally blow yourself up" mechanic (and not have it for every caster) then it makes a lot more sense to include it for the greenskins, whose magic is generally far more volatile. Including it for the dark elves paints the picture of "dark elves don't really know what the hell they're doing with magic". Heck, even Bright Wizards are having a much easier, much safer time casting the same power-level spells as the druchii do.To be honest, that is your personal interpretation. I can see Dark Elves employing super volatile magic if it pays off. This does not make them look like they "don't really know what they are doing" to me, on the contrary, they are capable of balancing on the limit of power a single being can handle. But that might just be a difference in interpretation.

Then there's the whole point as to painting Dark Magic, one of the main reasons the Dark Elves separated themselves off from the High Elves, as nothing more than a means to destroy things. Would any intelligent being (and I hope it goes without saying that the dark elves are very intelligent) forsake something as useful and versatile as High Magic for something that can only blow stuff to pieces?Again a matter of interpretation, yes I could see dark elves do such a thing. It fits them quite well, dropping supportive magic and embracing pure malevolent and destructive magic. Dark Elves aren't 100% rational like the Asur; for example they decided to use cold ones as mounts, disregarding their unreliable behavior just because the mount is so powerful and awe-inspiring. Cold ones are a liability in any battle, yet the Dark Elves still use them.
In addition we don't know the spells yet, so I hope to see some manipulative spells as well (Dominion - mind control?) not just nuke-nuke-nuke spells as that would indeed in my opinion rate them down.

But to round this down, I'm sorry that how the sorceress will work does not match your vision of them. Hopefully some of the spells will compensate for you. And lets both pray to Khaine and Slaanesh that Mythic won't mess up the melee-healer:)

edit: oh boy, bloodmage as a new forum class title...that doesn't bode well:rolleyes:

[Xurré]

It infringes on the enjoyability of those who don't want to play the sorceress as a healbot. Talk about damage capability all you like, but in the end the archetype will tell people what to expect of you, how you will be pressured to itemize, to specialize, and to play as.
Mythic keeps maintaining that all classes will not only be able, but required to do a healthy amount of damage to be able to heal well. So the same would go for the Sorceress who wouldn't be a healbot at all.

Also, I think people should grow a bit of a backbone and not play their characters the way other people expect them to play them, but how they most enjoy playing them. If your guild (or the party you join) requires you to play your character in a certain way then obviously that guild (/party) doesn't have any respect for you and I wouldn't stay with such a guild. but I guess that's just me. That's another topic altogether though.


- Xurré

[Lucrece]

Mythic keeps maintaining that all classes will not only be able, but required to do a healthy amount of damage to be able to heal well. So the same would go for the Sorceress who wouldn't be a healbot at all.

Also, I think people should grow a bit of a backbone and not play their characters the way other people expect them to play them, but how they most enjoy playing them. If your guild (or the party you join) requires you to play your character in a certain way then obviously that guild (/party) doesn't have any respect for you and I wouldn't stay with such a guild. but I guess that's just me. That's another topic altogether though.


- Xurré

Doing a healthy amount of damage is not the same as being in charge for getting most of the killing done, which is what most people like. Healers also tend to be rather self-insufficient in solo scenarios compared to their DD counterparts, so the fear by cause of stigma is not unwarranted. Some people simply prefer not to have their role based on supporting others.

As for the pressure topic, that is an idealistic perspective you have, but not a practical one. Some people like hardcore guilds, who do content the fastest, achieve highest in PvP, and achieve items the fastest (frivolous, but still the nature of progression-based games). These groups tend to min-max, and offensive hybridization is often barred. Those who wish to be "respected" will end up in piss poor casual guilds that take ages to progress and have sketchy commitment to teams in terms of member attendance and performance levels as regards events.

For this game to break with such a trend, it must make sure that an offensively specialized hybrid class is just as desirable, competitive, and has the itemization to be competitive with supportive specialized hybrids. They could do this by not having the support abilities of healers be boosted by career mastery branches, where the branches only boost damage and utility of offensive and self-defensive spells.

[Blight]

*EDITED for content*

[Slash]

*EDITED for content*

[Xurré]

Like the way Mythic is making the game they want to and not the way you expect them to?
Like Games Workshop showing some backbone and actually forcing Mythic to stick to the lore instead of just letting them do whatever under a general banner of "it's probably needed for making an MMO".


- Xurré

[Arkane]

Like Games Workshop showing some backbone and actually forcing Mythic to stick to the lore instead of just letting them do whatever under a general banner of "it's probably needed for making an MMO".


- Xurré

You can't stick to the lore completely when making an mmorpg that you expect to sell well and be fun. Things get changed around, is it that hard to understand? The other poster has a point though. You asked players to do what they think is the best for them rather than listening to what one specific guild needs. Mythic needs to do what they think is best, rather than cater to a couple of specific players' needs.

You make it sound like Games Workshop is completely oblivious to how a MMO operates but have no basis for saying such. Trust that Mythic is doing what they think is best for the game as a whole, in the long run.

You also shouldn't tell a player to do what they think is right, but then expect Mythic to do the opposite of what they think is right.

[Xurré]

Arkane;559368']You can't stick to the lore completely when making an mmorpg that you expect to sell well and be fun. Things get changed around, is it that hard to understand? The other poster has a point though. You asked players to do what they think is the best for them rather than listening to what one specific guild needs. Mythic needs to do what they think is best, rather than cater to a couple of specific players' needs.

You make it sound like Games Workshop is completely oblivious to how a MMO operates but have no basis for saying such. Trust that Mythic is doing what they think is best for the game as a whole, in the long run.

You also shouldn't tell a player to do what they think is right, but then expect Mythic to do the opposite of what they think is right.
You're missing the point. Namely that there is no reason that the game can't satisfy both being a good game and staying true to the setting.

The way you're arguing is "just accept whatever the hell Mythic throws at us". And if you feel like that... then what the hell are you doing on these forums discussing the game so far ahead of release.


- Xurré

[Shandris]

As a person who has no idea about the lore but has played lots of MMORPGs (wasted many years of my life already...lol) I'm not too picky about the lore, but the aesthetics of what the classes look like when I take a step back is very important to me for how the game feels. After thinking about it some more I'm convinced that Mythic is deciding to take out the gender-specifics of certain classes. Atm I see next to no possible gender-specific classes on the Order side, but plenty of both confirmed and unconfirmed possilbe gender-specific classes.

Mythic released the statement about rethinking gender-specific classes after beta closed and now the first class to be shown that was very very likely to be gender-specific turns out not to be. It just seems like there was another element to this, where they have come to a new conclusion that gender-specific classes are bad and they want to make all classes (except Orcs) have a choice between male or female.

I completely agree with other members: the male sorceress (that name just sounds horrible) looks horrendous. I dont buy their argument that they just "happened" to make art for a male sorceress and they thought it looked good. Before this, I really felt that the element of gender-specific classes was a cool thing that seemed to open up a whole new world of lore that was rich in history and willing to do things like that to immerse the players in that history. Now it seems like a step towards making it what I call a "safe" game in which its a safe bet that people will like it because its similar to other games that people liked by not taking too many chances on new implementations.

I admit, I know nothing about lore, but I totally agree with Xurre: why would you decide to make a male sorceress and cause some disturbance within the community if you could just make only female sorceresses and have a relatively calm albeit excited community. If I see more steps like this, I'm really going to reconsider looking into this game. I dont want to play another WOW or lineage or guild wars.....otherwise I'd play those games instead!!!

[Avatar Of War]

Anyone else notice the ire Mythic raised with the announcement about Sorcerers/ess being male and female and RDPS?

Buys everyone in every Race/class has had a dissappointment or two, but the dark elf forums are taking it to a new level.

This is not some kind of personal insult to the DE lore by Mythic. This is not some kind of conspiracy to suddenly make the game bad.

Chaos was not even this pissed when they announced male only Zealots/Chosen and that they had a custom class in the zealot.

What I really think is, a lot of people are pissed at the double whammy that the Sorceress took, a lot of you were sure they were one thing and one way and when it did not turn out that you were right, you got very upset.

So OK DE's are getting a surprise class and Ok, your also getting male sorcerer's, but I did not hear any of you Dark Elves complaining nearly as loud at the *gamebreaking* female Dwarves and Warpriest?

You can't cry that the game will be horrible if the class/race you like does not get the treatment you want.. but your ok with the other races being bolloxed? But people were willing to 'wait and see' when it was a class they really did not care about..

Come on guys this is not the end of the world...

(And I so heard all this crap before when WoW come out.. If a class was not just like a class in Warcraft 3... ohh the yelling and the screaming..):rolleyes:

[Xurré]

Buys everyone in every Race/class has had a dissappointment or two, but the dark elf forums are taking it to a new level.
If the fans of the other races don't care enough about their favorite races to fight for what they believe to be right for the race, then why is that the fault of the dark elf players?

Or maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back.


- Xurré

[Estebar]

I figured I'd just put this here for now, because I feel it would block up the November 2007 Newsletter thread, even though these two threads are starting to look a little similar.

This is a transcript of Paul Barnett's announcement of the Sorceress/Sorceror class. I just typed it all out.

It’s the Sorceress! She’s sexy, she’s a Dark Elf, she’s got pointy ears, she wears dresses high-cut at the thigh, she’s got a big stick. She wanders around elegantly twiddling her fingers with very nasty nails on, casting awesome magic (actually it’s death magic). From the background, these Sorceresses are these marvellous school of magic that Malekith, leader of the Dark Elves, uses to marshall all the forces of energy, and attack, and danger, and death magic and awesomeness. They have great big schools and they wander around and cause an awful lot of trouble.

In fact, when we sent off for the artwork to be done, we told them all this and we wrote it all down and out artists produced kick- material. It was absolutely beautiful. We should have some samples somewhere appearing around me if we got approval. They were so great, we just missed one detail. I hadn’t bothered to say, “Actually, they’re very girly.” And so when they came back, we had some boy Sorcerors! And, I tell you what, they absolutely rocked. They looked fantastic. So we looked at them and we went, “Gosh! That’s great! That’s super-great! That’s…that’s beyond fabulous!” And then we thought, “Are we allowed them?” So we went back, looked in the history, and we are! That’s the beauty of doing a game like this! We’re able to bring you Sorceror and Sorceresses. Boy and girl. Both cool. Both emo. Both live forever. Both look great in their tight, black, rubbery, spikey uniforms of death. Both with their big staffs. Both able to throw magic around, and be utterly awesome. So you can live in that perpetual idea that you will, in fact, live forever, be handsome, be young, be pretty, never age. Y’know, emo Goths. They’re coming. They’re great.

Onto the mechanics. So that’s the background, that’s the awkward bit for the fans. Let’s get to the important bit. What do you actually do? Well, you fire around spells (obviously) with a big stick (obviously) and you’re throwing dark magic - that’s the magic lore that they use. Now, what is it about dark magic that makes things absolutely super-cool? Well, dark magic is sort of like playing Russian Roulette. You start with one bullet in your gun, firing a dark magic spell and you go, BOOM! And kill people. (They’ve all got great names, “Chillwind”, stuff like that.) The more dark magic you use, effectively, the more bullets you’re putting in your Russian Roulette gun. The more chance you have of blowing yourself to pieces. And the more dark magic you use, the more powerful you get at it, the more damage you do, the more horror you create. However, the longer you use it, the bigger the chance that dark magic will rip into the reality and blow you to pieces and do an immense amount of damage and hurt you. So, you’re sort of playing a guessing game: “Do I keep blowing things up and run the risk of blowing myself up or, do I hold back, do I wait, do I allow it to drain away from me and siphon off before I go out for it again?” When you’re in those twitchy combat moments, you go for it just to kill the big giant…and instead you’re head explodes. It’s Chaos baby. You’re gonna love it. The Sorceror.

"Just stick to the script, Paul"
Are we allowed any of those cheap gags? Like, erm, “A Sorceror’s staff’s got a knob at the end of it”? Anything like that? Or…no. So, just, so “Be enthusiastic. And ‘sorcery’. And somehow mention boys” …yeah. Yeah. I’ve gotta explain this to my children. Fine, “What d’you do today, dad?” *sighs* So, the three points Paul had to remember for his presentation was to be enthusiastic (in typical elaborate Paul-style), mention background and mechanics for the Sorceress, and explain why males are included.

When announcing the Zealot, Paul had to go through a similar ordeal of explaining that the Zealot isn't actually in the army, and it was created by Games Workshop for the game itself, as well as mentioning a vague outline of the direction in which they were taking the class in background and mechanics.

He said, "He's about calling down birds and these enormous scarecrow totems. He's about building the faith towards Tzeentch, and he's about drawing forth the Chaos, out of the Chaos ether, into the modern world, and ripping things to pieces via the use of the birds. It's beaks, it's feathers, it's death, it's destruction!"

The only evidence we had in that description that the Zealot was Healer/Support was when they edited in Paul emphatically stating the Zealot's archetype as "Healer/Aggressive Combat Spellcaster of Chaos." You can actually hear them cutting it in just before he says it.

In another description of the Zealot, he said, "It's about worshipping the bird god and about throwing down scarecrows and totems and bringing the birds out and bringing the bird god manifest into the world and blowing people up with spells." In that interview with TenTonHammer, he doesn't mention the Zealot being a Healer/Support class or using healing techniques at all.

We have had no solid proof of the Sorceror/ess being proved to be the Ranged DPS class just yet. So far, all we've had is a chart drawn up by Garth giving his own deductions on the subject.

In the Archmage profile, we can see that he also has consequences for using too much offensive power - "An Archmage is a powerful caster both offensively and defensively. However they must strive to keep a balance between the powers they manipulate. Weaving only powerful healing or destructive spells will leave the Archmage tired and unable to assist his allies in their darkest hour." So, if both Paul's description of the Sorceror class, and its mechanic, can be found implemented into other Healer/Support characters (the Zealot and the Archmage), there is no reason why we still can't consider the possibility of the class being Healer/Support.

[Gilead]

In another description of the Zealot, he said, "It's about worshipping the bird god and about throwing down scarecrows and totems and bringing the birds out and bringing the bird god manifest into the world and blowing people up with spells." In that interview with TenTonHammer, he doesn't mention the Zealot being a Healer/Support class or using healing techniques at all.


You mean the conference call between Mythic and TenTonHammer where he says this?:

" The Zealot is a crazy fanatic with creepy fetishes that likes to throw potions, lotion, and custard. If you had to give him an archetype, he would be the healer (sigh). Overall he is a close proximity stabby fighter with fetishes and bird seed, along with scary scarecrows that follow him around."

I'd like to see the link where your interview was taken and he fails to mention that Zealots heal. I have two different sources both saying that they are healers, one even being a small paragraph mentioning it. I understand he doesn't like saying healer but every time a class heals, he mentions it because that's his job, information.

In the Archmage profile, we can see that he also has consequences for using too much offensive power - So, if both Paul's description of the Sorceror class, and its mechanic, can be found implemented into other Healer/Support characters (the Zealot and the Archmage), there is no reason why we still can't consider the possibility of the class being Healer/Support.
Of course they mention the mechanic unique to each class, why is that special or even relevant to the discussion?

If you use logic. That being the key word. He doesn't mention healing like he did with every other healer in the game, so it isn't in. He doesn't mention them being a melee class, being able to fly, being able to resurrect, summon monsters, ride a goat either but by your logic they might be able to because he didn't mention those.

[Estebar]

You mean the conference call between Mythic and TenTonHammer where he says this?:

" The Zealot is a crazy fanatic with creepy fetishes that likes to throw potions, lotion, and custard. If you had to give him an archetype, he would be the healer (sigh). Overall he is a close proximity stabby fighter with fetishes and bird seed, along with scary scarecrows that follow him around."

I'd like to see the link where your interview was taken and he fails to mention that Zealots heal. I have two different sources both saying that they are healers, one even being a small paragraph mentioning it. I understand he doesn't like saying healer but every time a class heals, he mentions it because that's his job, information. Alright. Always happy to help. Here you go (http://www.war-resource.com/careers/zealot.php). "Chaos Zealot Quotes". Below Zealot Look. Above Chaos Zealot Concept Art.

You'll notice that in Paul Barnett's two descriptions of the Zealot, the only time he mentions the Zealot being a Healer is when it's edited into this video (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/files/WAR-NL_TheZealot.wmv). The TenTonHammer conference I'm referring to is this (http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=98) one, in which he doesn't mention the Zealot being a Healer or healing at all. Not sure which conference call you're referring to.

Of course they mention the mechanic unique to each class, why is that special or even relevant to the discussion? Because it looks similar to the mechanic they've given the Sorceress. If the Archmage uses too much of one kind of power, he suffers the consequences and gets tired.

If you use logic. That being the key word. He doesn't mention healing like he did with every other healer in the game, so it isn't in. He doesn't mention them being a melee class, being able to fly, being able to resurrect, summon monsters, ride a goat either but by your logic they might be able to because he didn't mention those. As I've shown, Paul doesn't mention healing when describing the Zealot. It's edited in. and in the TenTonHammer conference I've provided, he doesn't mention it. He didn't have the opportunity to make the same mistake with the Shaman, because waaaaay back when the Shaman was created Paul wasn't doing videoblogs. We've already had evidence of Paul making a mistake in his rushed, excited presentation before, and having to admit he's made a mistake and correct himself as shown with the Shadow Warrior last month, so it could easily have happened again except marketing told them not to edit it because it would stir up the fanbase and Paul's reputation as Creative Director would've looked a little shabby if two of his consecutive videoblogs had to be edited for content.

I think I've looked at this pretty logically, and I've given all the necessary proof you wanted, so you can keep your sighs to yourself. They're very condescending.

[Gilead]

Alright. Always happy to help. Here you go (http://www.war-resource.com/careers/zealot.php). "Chaos Zealot Quotes". Below Zealot Look. Above Chaos Zealot Concept Art.

You'll notice that in Paul Barnett's two descriptions of the Zealot, the only time he mentions the Zealot being a Healer is when it's edited into this video (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/files/WAR-NL_TheZealot.wmv). The TenTonHammer conference I'm referring to is this (http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=98) one, in which he doesn't mention the Zealot being a Healer or healing at all. Not sure which conference call you're referring to.
Everything you post has it describing him as a healer.

"He is the healer."-- Josh Drescher: Exclusive Interview with Jeff Hickman and Paul Barnett, Part #3 (http://www.war-resource.com/viewquote.php?q=421)
"The Zealot is the healer/aggressive-combat spellcaster of Chaos. He's absolutely fantastic."-- Paul Barnett: Newsletter Exclusive: The Zealot (http://www.war-resource.com/viewquote.php?q=462)
"He's a priest. We like that look. Kind of like a Chaos utility belt."-- Paul Barnett: Ten Ton Hammer Exclusive Part II: Chaos Classes (http://www.war-resource.com/viewquote.php?q=482)
"The zealot has an insta cast heal over time spell which is just incredible. That ability alone kept me alive."
-- ashefire: Warhammer Online at Games Day Chicago (http://www.war-resource.com/viewquote.php?q=711)

In the video describing the Chaos classes on TenTonHammer it says quite clearly MAGIC/HEALER beside the Zealot. Saying the video was 'edited' isn't fact, it isn't even noticeable. I must have missed the memo where they covertly add sentences into podcasts.

As I've shown, Paul doesn't mention healing when describing the Zealot. It's edited in. and in the TenTonHammer conference I've provided, he doesn't mention it. He didn't have the opportunity to make the same mistake with the Shaman, because waaaaay back when the Shaman was created Paul wasn't doing videoblogs. We've already had evidence of Paul making a mistake in his rushed, excited presentation before, and having to admit he's made a mistake and correct himself as shown with the Shadow Warrior last month, so it could easily have happened again except marketing told them not to edit it because it would stir up the fanbase and Paul's reputation as Creative Director would've looked a little shabby if two of his consecutive videoblogs had to be edited for content.

I think I've looked at this pretty logically, and I've given all the necessary proof you wanted, so you can keep your sighs to yourself. They're very condescending.
So your argument rests on your assumption of an edited video and that people might look down on a creative director because he made a few minor mistakes in his podcasts?

[Estebar]

Alright, let's look at these again. I've given comments on them where relevant in bold, and in brackets:
"He is the healer."-- Josh Drescher: Exclusive Interview with Jeff Hickman and Paul Barnett, Part #3 (http://www.war-resource.com/viewquote.php?q=421)

(Not Paul Barnett, so not relevant)
"The Zealot is the healer/aggressive-combat spellcaster of Chaos. He's absolutely fantastic."-- Paul Barnett: Newsletter Exclusive: The Zealot (http://www.war-resource.com/viewquote.php?q=462)

(Archetype description edited in, as already explained)
"He's a priest. We like that look. Kind of like a Chaos utility belt."-- Paul Barnett: Ten Ton Hammer Exclusive Part II: Chaos Classes (http://www.war-resource.com/viewquote.php?q=482)

(WOW class stereotypes aside, doesn't make any mention of him being a healer there)
"The zealot has an insta cast heal over time spell which is just incredible. That ability alone kept me alive."-- ashefire: Warhammer Online at Games Day Chicago (http://www.war-resource.com/viewquote.php?q=711)

(Made by a fan playing as the in-game Zealot 7 months after the class was revealed, so not relevant here at all)

In the video describing the Chaos classes on TenTonHammer it says quite clearly MAGIC/HEALER beside the Zealot. ...so Paul didn't have to say that the Zealot was Healer/Support, right? Well, maybe he was assuming that the video editing team would add in the Sorceress's archetype too, and that's why he didn't mention it.

Saying the video was 'edited' isn't fact, it isn't even noticeable. I must have missed the memo where they covertly add sentences into podcasts. Listen (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/files/WAR-NL_TheZealot.wmv) to the video. There is clearly a change in sound (listen to the background noise) right before he says the Zealot's archetype, and he is clearly talking in a completely different tone of voice. It's not intentionally covert, it just doesn't need any explanation of why it's getting added in like the Shadow Warrior editing did.

So your argument rests on your assumption of an edited video and that people might look down on a creative director because he made a few minor mistakes in his podcasts? You can hear that the video is edited. People have already given reasons for why they wouldn't mention the Sorceress's archetype either way, and if you go over my points again during out discussion, my argument rests on a little more than that.

[Valythiir]

I know I'm late to the party, I dropped off in my WAR fervor for a while.

In my opinion, I am very happy to see male sorcerers available. So far as I'm concerned, the lore supports them (male-only Chosen, on the other hand, is a mistake and an decision I openly dislike). There is only so much space in which limiting options makes the story "richer."

The Druchii have their fanatical sisterhood in the Witch Elves, the convents of sorcery as little more than an arcane reiteration of this does nothing for me. I, particularly as a male, find it richer to be have the option of renegade male caster in contrast to the establishment of the convents.

That said, I will certainly side with Xurré in regards to the apparent focus of sorcerers as RDPS only.

That's dumb.

The existing dark magic in the source material can be extremely destructive. It can also be extremely diverse, subtle, and utilitarian. There is nothing wrong with a Druchii sorcerer being the dark mirror to the High Elf Archmage. The high elves weave the winds in harmony, they play by the rules, the dark elves embrace dark magic's ability to twist the warp and bend rules in their favor.

Blowing themselves up is not a good mechanic. I had been very much hoping for sorcerers to wield an ability similar to WoW's vampiric embrace as their gimmick. Blowing yourself up to be balls-to-the-wall DPS is not Dark magic. It's Waaagh! or Bright Wizard territory.

Keep male sorcerers, ditch the pure DPS blow-themselves-up-route and properly reflect the variety of powers manipulated by Dark magic.

[Shandris]

...Buys everyone in every Race/class has had a dissappointment or two, but the dark elf forums are taking it to a new level.

...Chaos was not even this pissed when they announced male only Zealots/Chosen and that they had a custom class in the zealot.

What I really think is, a lot of people are pissed at the double whammy that the Sorceress took, a lot of you were sure they were one thing and one way and when it did not turn out that you were right, you got very upset.

...So OK DE's are getting a surprise class and Ok, your also getting male sorcerer's, but I did not hear any of you Dark Elves complaining nearly as loud at the *gamebreaking* female Dwarves and Warpriest?...

Actually theres a couple more stuff outside of male sorceresses that I dont like (may I remind you I know virtually nothing about Warhammer lore except from Dawn of War pc games). The dwarf women look terrible (and I just dont see them getting that angry at orcs to justify the char....it just doesnt feel/look right); and the Knights of the Blazing Sun look really bad in terms of concept art; and the screenshots of the warrior priest vs zealot make me think the zealot gets rocked most of the time (i guess that one is mostly personal opinion); and overall I really hate how gender-specific roles arent as big as I think they could be. No doubt people like choice, but I think it would bring a unique flair to the game if you really felt like your character through lore and the reasoning why you are your gender as well. MMOs seem to do a great job of bringing importance and meaning to why you chose your class/profession with a little story background behind it, but not in any game does it add a gender bias that is unique to that class. Maybe I'm just the only one who thinks this is a cool idea. O, and HE male screenies look bad so far to me as well.....get a little muscle on em at least!!!

So ya....its not really just the DE stuff....its just I had heard rumors about sorceresses being the next DE class and the name/idea of it sounded like something I was more interested in than others, thus i got pissed enough to express myself of how I would have liked it to be. Actually I totally wish that I could be outside of Destruction and Order so I could kill both male sorcerers and female dwarves and ask them afterwards why they chose to play such an ugly character whos place in the game doesnt mix well with the others.....lol

[Deddog]

The existing dark magic in the source material can be extremely destructive. It can also be extremely diverse, subtle, and utilitarian. There is nothing wrong with a Druchii sorcerer being the dark mirror to the High Elf Archmage. The high elves weave the winds in harmony, they play by the rules, the dark elves embrace dark magic's ability to twist the warp and bend rules in their favor.

Blowing themselves up is not a good mechanic. I had been very much hoping for sorcerers to wield an ability similar to WoW's vampiric embrace as their gimmick. Blowing yourself up to be balls-to-the-wall DPS is not Dark magic. It's Waaagh! or Bright Wizard territory.

Keep male sorcerers, ditch the pure DPS blow-themselves-up-route and properly reflect the variety of powers manipulated by Dark magic.

I generally agree with this. Chaos mages, Goblin Shamans, and Human Mages are the ones that use magic dangerously. While the Dark Elf sorcerers use dangerous magic, they aren't the ones who are afraid of it. They're every bit as in control of their magic as the High Elves are. It makes more sense for them to be a nuke/utility class.

[LuBear]

I generally agree with this. Chaos mages, Goblin Shamans, and Human Mages are the ones that use magic dangerously. While the Dark Elf sorcerers use dangerous magic, they aren't the ones who are afraid of it. They're every bit as in control of their magic as the High Elves are. It makes more sense for them to be a nuke/utility class.

While it makes sense in the lore, but look at it from this game play presepctive. DE Sorcerer will have to be a powerful dps, with powerful nukes but you'll have nothing to counter-balance it. What's to stop people just spamming pure powerful nukes. If you change it and make nukes less powerful then the feeling of Sorcerer is gone. Thus you need a counter-measure, I think everyone is taking Paul video words way way 2 literally, it might not even be half as bad as what people are saying.

[Sinfjotle]

You lose the feel of the Sorceress because they wouldn't be strong enough, but you wouldn't lose it because they're blowing themselves up?

[Thizz]

outright blowing yourself up and having a chance to do damage to yourself are two TOTALLY different things. try and be reasonable, mythic are not a bunch of @#$!ing idiots.

[Arkane]

You're missing the point. Namely that there is no reason that the game can't satisfy both being a good game and staying true to the setting.

The way you're arguing is "just accept whatever the hell Mythic throws at us". And if you feel like that... then what the hell are you doing on these forums discussing the game so far ahead of release.


- Xurré

I am not saying accept everything they throw at us, but comments like "How much do we have to pay you guys to change this decision" is laughable. It is too close to release for them to just scratch Sorcs and change around their mechanics, I am saying that it is time to accept that. If they did this announcement 6 months ago, then you would have a legitimate case, but not any longer. Like I said though, you never played DAoC so you do not know that Mythic will do what they feel is best for the game in terms of gameplay, fun, and making sure it is balanced.

Also, way to ignore the last part of my quote. Contradictions are a fantastic was to help your argument.

Also, do not question why I am here on these forums. If you haven't noticed I have been discussing things on this forum on masteries, how will they play out, and other discussions that are still worth the time. You do not have to take your anger out on me just because you can't get your way.

[Sinfjotle]

Arkane, relax, come on, breath deep? You relaxed, you breathing deeply, you calmed down?

It. Was. A. Joke. It was meant to be laughable.

[Arkane]

Arkane, relax, come on, breath deep? You relaxed, you breathing deeply, you calmed down?

It. Was. A. Joke. It was meant to be laughable.
Can't read emotion on a forum without emoticons so I wasn't sure, hence why I defended myself.

[Thizz]

Though I don't know Arkane, or are friends with him, that didn't look like a joke to me either. Based on what I've seen in Xurre's posts as of late, all he/she looks to be is a crybaby extraordinaire..

[Sinfjotle]

Yes, Xurre was obviously serious to the point where she was accepting donations over paypal to bribe Mythic employees.

I'm not sure if it's because you have such a low expectation of human beings or if you can't understand diction, but it was fairly obvious it was in jest.

[Arkane]

Sin, it seems you are still stuck on the first comment she made. Her paypal comment is not what we are talking about.

[Arkane]

Here is the comment I defended myself on as you must have missed it:

The way you're arguing is "just accept whatever the hell Mythic throws at us". And if you feel like that... then what the hell are you doing on these forums discussing the game so far ahead of release.

[Sinfjotle]

*EDITED for content*

[Arkane]

Because she said my attitude is to accept everything they throw at us...

Now if I say to you:

"Your attitude is to accept everything they throw at us" and "Then why the hell are you here?" would you honestly think I was in joke mode or attack mode?

[Sinfjotle]

I see you still don't understand.

I'm not referring to that line of arguments, I'm referring to you bringing up a joke as if it was serious.

I'm not sure if you're having a bad day or something, but whoooooooooosh seems more than fitting.

[Arkane]

I see you still don't understand.

I'm not referring to that line of arguments, I'm referring to you bringing up a joke as if it was serious.

I'm not sure if you're having a bad day or something, but whoooooooooosh seems more than fitting.

Because it was a joke that she was trying to use as a point, which was laughable. I don't think you understand. Now, if you are just trying to pick a fight you can contact me through PMs, otherwise, please quit badgering me and contribute something to the thread. Thank you.

[Thizz]

*EDITED for content*

[Sinfjotle]

You realize I'm not even arguing that, right? I mean, can you please at least read my posts and think for five seconds before replying to something that I never even said or referred to?

I'm not saying Xurre is only joking, I'm saying one specific comment, 1, uno, ichi, whatever the French word for one is, was a joke and that Arkane messed up and took it seriously.

[Arkane]

You realize I'm not even arguing that, right? I mean, can you please at least read my posts and think for five seconds before replying to something that I never even said or referred to?

I'm not saying Xurre is only joking, I'm saying one specific comment, 1, uno, ichi, whatever the French word for one is, was a joke and that Arkane messed up and took it seriously.
Please stop telling me how I interpret something. I already wrote that I knew it was not a serious comment, but a comment that she was trying to use as a joke to prove a point. Let us get back to PMs.

[Thizz]

1234567890

[Barocrates]

Xurre, though getting a bit heated, is pretty spot-on with her descriptions - in the sort of way that I can't really offer anything to add.

I do want to address something I've seen said here:

"They don't develop a game based on if it was rp, or lore - what choice the DARK ELF would make. They base it on the human player's choices".

No. Stop. Right there. Go away.

That is most certainly not how any game that actually has backstory is created - or shouldn't be, at any rate. A hidden mechanic that does not support the class description is most certainly not added in to appease the "player".

The "player" should be making their choice based upon the options presented to them in correlation to what the character they're playings' limitations are. For the Dark Elves, this is in no way purposely using magic to kill themselves "for the greater good" of their cause, and CERTAINLY not "because I'll just spawn at the graveyard again". Creating abilities BASED on "the fourth wall's knowledge" is a terrible idea, and opens up to even more ridiculous, stupid possibilities.

"The Sorceress has a powerful ability that will immediately kill her, but use that suicidal life force to boost her party's damage.. Her %HP that was remaining will proportionally increase the duration and effect".

That would be a prime example of a skill implemented "because the player knows they can just come back", when in that world no Dark Elf that calls themself a Dark Elf would ever sacrifice themselves for their "friends" - hell they have an entire holiday dedicated to murdering one another.

In the same token, no Dark Elf would ever cut themselfs TO BE BLASTIER!

All "overreacting" and "chilling out" aside, Xurre's completely right. By restricting them to ranged DPS, they've nullified the integrity of this magic that the Elves willingly forsaked themselves to use. I can assure you that the Dark Elves' spells aren't simply going to do 50% more damage than Orders' spells, which is the sort of mentality the description is trying to imply. "Dhar" will now be as strong in the game as "Bright Magic", but the Goku wizards will be flinging fireballs care-free while the Dark Elves will need to stop and take a tea break lest they hurt themselves.

Frankly, there are plenty of mentalities that Mythic is simply, well, WRONG about. I already know why they want no female Chosen - because they're supposed to be "imposing and towering over others". Anyone who's played Everquest at all will tell you that female Barbarians were perfect - SOMEWHAT smaller and dainter than the males, still towering and imposing over human males. No female marauders makes no damned sense - I've seen my ex in a rage, and she could grow those mutations WITHOUT Chaos power. Nothing looks "less impressive" when it's left arm is biting your ankle off.

I also think i know why the wanted Sorceress' as ranged DPS - Order has "two phyiscal, one magic" ranged DPS, so they wanted Destruction to have "two magic, one physical ranged", which still, frankly, doesn't matter. If this is really he balance they're searching for, we can pretty much be promised a melee healer for Dark Elf, which is stupid, since a Sorceror of Chaos would have made a more logical, more "imposing" since they wanted it, more viable melee healer.

People keep using the excuse "they're trying to mix things up from what was expected", but what was EXPECTED was already fun.

[spirit]

If the fans of the other races don't care enough about their favorite races to fight for what they believe to be right for the race, then why is that the fault of the dark elf players?

Or maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back.


- Xurré


Don't begin to try and say I don't care enough about my favourite race Xurre. I've been through it become Tzeentch only, having the zealot unleashed, having males-only for half the classes and not to mention all the jabbering about Magi and their discs. I haven't raged about any of these, because while they might be slightly off-lore, they are only that, slightly.

Male sorcerers are not that big a deal. Honestly. Hell I'd even say Blood-Priests or blood-acolytes wouldn't be bad as long as they gave them an aggressive enough twist (as in, they heal for the sole purpose of killing more, not healing because they are nice).

It might be a lore break (which could be debated to the end of time), but is it a significant enough lore break to warrant all this screaming and hell-raising? Nowhere near.

Mind you, that's my opinion, and you are free to keep yours that it is a massive lore-break...but GW and Mythic seem to be on my side, and they're making the game, so I don't really need to persuade anyone of anything.

[Arkane]

Don't begin to try and say I don't care enough about my favourite race Xurre. I've been through it become Tzeentch only, having the zealot unleashed, having males-only for half the classes and not to mention all the jabbering about Magi and their discs. I haven't raged about any of these, because while they might be slightly off-lore, they are only that, slightly.

Male sorcerers are not that big a deal. Honestly. Hell I'd even say Blood-Priests or blood-acolytes wouldn't be bad as long as they gave them an aggressive enough twist (as in, they heal for the sole purpose of killing more, not healing because they are nice).

It might be a lore break (which could be debated to the end of time), but is it a significant enough lore break to warrant all this screaming and hell-raising? Nowhere near.

Mind you, that's my opinion, and you are free to keep yours that it is a massive lore-break...but GW and Mythic seem to be on my side, and they're making the game, so I don't really need to persuade anyone of anything.
You mean something like what we are speculating for the Sorc bar, where the more you cast the more damage you will do, but at the risk of blacklash?

Everytime the healer heals, his bar goes up, causing offensive spells to do more damage?

[Thizz]

understandable barocrates, but whether we like it or not, destruction needs a melee healer. im actually one of those who wanted the sorc to be support, but am i heart broken about them not being such? definitely not.

making the sorc RDPS, fixes balance issues. so lore aside, this was the best route.

[Barocrates]

understandable barocrates, but whether we like it or not, destruction needs a melee healer. im actually one of those who wanted the sorc to be support, but am i heart broken about them not being such? definitely not.

making the sorc RDPS, fixes balance issues. so lore aside, this was the best route.

Balance is overrated. Not "balance" in the "Order does 50% more damage than Destruction" sense, but balance in the "This side has two green and one red, so the other side should have two red and one green".

It would have been balanced, actually, for Destruction to have two physical, one caster DPS - with the Shade being the Ranged DPS. When you start to cry "balance", one of two things happens:

-Things are "balanced" until they are so bland, nothing is truly interesting.
-People who whined about balance will still whine:

"SEE? Now we gave you two caster, one physical DPS!"
"Myeah, but I wanted GREENSKINS to have a caster DPS. It's not the same."
"...But you have two other choices on Destruction, and one on Order, to have ranged magical DPS"
"Myeah, but it isn't what I wanted"

The golden rule is that some people aren't happy unless they're unhappy, so trying to appease them through "balance" won't work, and will only piss off those who it actually mattered to.

[Thizz]

balance is best. and theyre doing this in a way where while there is still your "2green 1 red"

one side's green might be squares, and the other side's green will be circles. meaning, yes, balance wise, theyre the same, but theyll still both be diverse enough to not be bland.


everything else you said isnt worth replying to.

[Barocrates]

balance is best. and theyre doing this in a way where while there is still your "2green 1 red"

one side's green might be squares, and the other side's green will be circles. meaning, yes, balance wise, theyre the same, but theyll still both be diverse enough to not be bland.

No, see, this was the point - the exact point, as it were - I was making as to why Destruction also having "two physical, one magic" ranged DPS wouldn't be "imbalanced". The only "imbalance" there would be would be no generic paladin "armored healer", which is such a stupid concept to try and balance out in and of itself that trying to make a balance to THAT balance is just unecessary.

Here, I can butcher lore too but still keep it within bounds. Sorc's manipulate Dhar's and soul steals to do pretty much anything. Let them cover themslves in "soul armor" that matches plate and lat them swing the staff around. There you go, there's your armored healer and we don't even need to start discussing fan-fiction.

No matter how you slice it, nothing they've done was "the most necessary move" to "balance".

everything else you said isnt worth replying to.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. So far your arguments seem to be dismissive and "matter-of-fact" - "No this was obviously the best choice for balance nothing else need be said".

[Xurré]

Arkane;564140']It is too close to release for them to just scratch Sorcs and change around their mechanics, I am saying that it is time to accept that. If they did this announcement 6 months ago, then you would have a legitimate case, but not any longer.
To be honest it wasn't my choice, nor my fault, that Mythic (marketing) decided to wait this long to let us in on these classes. I can't help it that only now can I complain about the mistakes I feel Mythic might be making here. As such I feel the "it's too close to release now, it's too late" argument is completely invalid as that was their choice and as such the consequences of that should be on them too (not that I think they will be; people, and companies even more so, are generally reluctant to accept consequences like that).

Besides, I'm fairly certain that I've been arguing this six months ago as well.


Yes, Xurre was obviously serious to the point where she was accepting donations over paypal to bribe Mythic employees.
I appreciate you trying to defend me, I really, really do. But to be honest with you I'm not certain myself if I was joking or not. I think I was perfectly willing to give Mythic large sums of money to improve the game (though I would call is more of a negotiation instead of a bribe).


Don't begin to try and say I don't care enough about my favourite race Xurre.
My apologies; that was uncalled for of me.


- Xurré

[Thizz]

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. So far your arguments seem to be dismissive and "matter-of-fact" - "No this was obviously the best choice for balance nothing else need be said".

Now you're gettin' it.

And as things stand atm, yes, nothing else needs to be said on these issues, because everything has already been said.

[Xurré]

Wozzlebozzle.

There, I doubt that has been said yet. :p


- Xurré

[Gilead]

Wozzlebozzle.

There, I doubt that has been said yet. :p

I'm sure it was in Paul's first edit of the Sorcerer video 8 or 9 times.

[Barocrates]

*EDITED for content*

[Browncoat-WHA]

Well, this one's pretty much been done to death. How do I know? How about the cavalcade of one-liner posts and people making snide commentary? Don't worry, those of you who participated have received a little assistance from me as to helping understand appropriate content.

I think you'll agree this one's not really going anywhere. Time for a lock.

*LOCKED with a glue factory*