Squig Herder as the only ranged dps archer class in the Destruction faction?

[Accipiter]

The first hard information released today on the Sorcerer class mentions nothing about healing. In his podcast, Paul only mentions destructive magic. Early speculation is that this probably means the Sorcerer is the ranged dps class for the Dark Elves.

What all that would mean, is that even if the yet-to-be-released DE support class does use a repeater Xbow, he's still not going to have the dps of the Squig Herder.

All this is to say that we Squig Herders look to be the only pure pew pew Archer class on the Destruction side. This makes for an interesting dynamic:

Destruction Ranged DPS Classes - 2 magic classes (Magus, Sorcerer) / 1 phyical class (SH)

Order Ranged DPS Classes - 1 magic class (BW) / 2 physical classes (SW, Engineer)

Still speculative and perhaps pointless, but, what the hell, there hasn't been a new thread on this forum in forever and we need something to argue about.

[Foofmonger]

The first hard information released today on the Sorcerer class mentions nothing about healing. In his podcast, Paul only mentions destructive magic. Early speculation is that this probably means the Sorcerer is the ranged dps class for the Dark Elves.

What all that would mean, is that even if the yet-to-be-released DE support class does use a repeater Xbow, he's still not going to have the dps of the Squig Herder.

All this is to say that we Squig Herders look to be the only pure pew pew Archer class on the Destruction side. This makes for an interesting dynamic:

Destruction Ranged DPS Classes - 2 magic classes (Magus, Sorcerer) / 1 phyical class (SH)

Order Ranged DPS Classes - 1 magic class (BW) / 2 physical classes (SW, Engineer)

Still speculative and perhaps pointless, but, what the hell, there hasn't been a new thread on this forum in forever and we need something to argue about.

Heres the thing, just because a class uses magic, and another uses physical doesn't mean that their playstyles will be vastly different.

I hate making comparisons simply based on cosmetic and mechanical issues. For all we know, the Sorc could end up playing a lot like a SW or something, just the big difference is that one uses spells and the other arrows (I'm not saying this is the case, its merely an example for how little we know).

Personally I think the only valid comparisons are ones that obviously mirror playstyles, like for instance, the KotBS and Chosen, who both fufill a similar "battlefield commander" role.

[Varcan]

It seems like Mythic is really trying to make all the classes(it least to their respective side) very different from a mechanical standpoint. Perhaps they thought that having two bow using classes on the same side was too repetitive.

Though they’ve really made us speculate on speculation by not telling us for sure that the Sorcerer is the RDPS class.

[Accipiter]

Heres the thing, just because a class uses magic, and another uses physical doesn't mean that their playstyles will be vastly different.

I hate making comparisons simply based on cosmetic and mechanical issues. For all we know, the Sorc could end up playing a lot like a SW or something, just the big difference is that one uses spells and the other arrows (I'm not saying this is the case, its merely an example for how little we know).

Personally I think the only valid comparisons are ones that obviously mirror playstyles, like for instance, the KotBS and Chosen, who both fufill a similar "battlefield commander" role.

It's not just about play style. The type of damage matters. I believe they've said that some classes will absorb magic damage better than physical damage and other classes will take physical damage better than magical damage. Which means that some classes will do better against "mage" types.

[Foofmonger]

It's not just about play style. The type of damage matters. I believe they've said that some classes will absorb magic damage better than physical damage and other classes will take physical damage better than magical damage. Which means that some classes will do better against "mage" types.

Its all about the playstyle, and you are correct, heavily armored tanks will take less physical damage then other careers.

However, due to stats like toughness and resists, everyone has ways of mitigating damage if they so choose.

If two classes don't share a playstyle, then comparing them like they do is faulty. Thats like saying the WP is going to function like the Zealot, when it obviously isn't.

[Varcan]

It's not just about play style. The type of damage matters. I believe they've said that some classes will absorb magic damage better than physical damage and other classes will take physical damage better than magical damage. Which means that some classes will do better against "mage" types.

This is certainly true. I think it will be an advantage to have 2 magic users due to the fact that classes with armor are usually popular(ex. Warrior Priest, Tank classes). A recent interview talked about how the Ironbreaker will be very tough for an all Greenskin group to take down because Greenskins don't use magic aside from the Shaman.

[Foofmonger]

This is certainly true. I think it will be an advantage to have 2 magic users due to the fact that classes with armor are usually popular(ex. Warrior Priest, Tank classes). A recent interview talked about how the Ironbreaker will be very tough for an all Greenskin group to take down because Greenskins don't use magic aside from the Shaman.

Yet you must remember that with itemization, people can choose to stack toughness (reduces damage taken from all sources) and resists (prevents magic damage).

So yes, while the tank classes are adapt at naturally taking physical damage, everyone and their mother can reduce the damage done to them by any type.

If you gear your tank up with mad toughness and mad resists, you aren't going to be taking a lot of magic damage at all (or physical).

[Varcan]

If you gear your tank up with mad toughness and mad resists, you aren't going to be taking a lot of magic damage at all (or physical).

You could choose to equip your tank that way. However, I'm pretty sure all tanks will have a lot of toughness, the point is that magic will bypass the armor portion, making tanks more viable targets for magic users than ballistics no matter how you look at it. And resist usually aren't that useful unless there's a particular type of magic that you know your going to get hit by. More magic users will make it even harder to consentrate on a single type of magic resist.


On a seperate note:

Mythic may be trying to even up the population of the RDPS classes on both sides(Ballistics=Magic)

Bright Wizard(magic) --> very popular
Engineer(ballistics) --> being Dwarf will lower its pop. significantly
Shadow Warrior(ballistics) --> popular

Squig Herder(ballistics, pet) --> popular, pet will help its cause
Magus(magic) --> niche popularity, many find disk a detractor
Sorcerer(magic) --> popular, it's an elf

[Foofmonger]

You could choose to equip your tank that way. However, I'm pretty sure all tanks will have a lot of toughness, the point is that magic will bypass the armor portion, making tanks more viable targets for magic users than ballistics no matter how you look at it. And resist usually aren't that useful unless there's a particular type of magic that you know your going to get hit by. More magic users will make it even harder to consentrate on a single type of magic resist.


If your a destruction tank, you would obviously go for fire resists, it wouldn't be that hard of a decision (considering they are the only magic RDPS on the order side) And Bright Wizards are not known for using other types of magic.

As far as Order goes, it seems like their tanks will have a tougher time if the Sorc is indeed RDPS, for they need to gear to protect themselves from both the Magus and Sorc (which is probably 2+ resists).


On a seperate note:

Mythic may be trying to even up the population of the RDPS classes on both sides(Ballistics=Magic)

Bright Wizard(magic) --> very popular
Engineer(ballistics) --> being Dwarf will lower its pop. significantly
Shadow Warrior(ballistics) --> popular

Squig Herder(ballistics, pet) --> popular, pet will help its cause
Magus(magic) --> niche popularity, many find disk a detractor
Sorcerer(magic) --> popular, it's an elf
[/quote]

I'm not so sure about this one personally, I just don't think Mythic basis their class designs on assumptions about how "popular" they will turn out to be. I'm sure its a factor, but I don't think its the main one.

Also it stands to reason that having 2 ballistics and one magic vs two magic and one ballistic equates to a slightly different playstyle per-faction as far as the RDPS goes.

If this is the case: Order will have a slight advantage on tanking out lighly armored targets, and destruction will have a slight advantage on tanking out heavy armored targets.

[Accipiter]

Its all about the playstyle, and you are correct, heavily armored tanks will take less physical damage then other careers.

However, due to stats like toughness and resists, everyone has ways of mitigating damage if they so choose.

If two classes don't share a playstyle, then comparing them like they do is faulty. Thats like saying the WP is going to function like the Zealot, when it obviously isn't.

You are oversimplifying. Not all tanks absorb damage in the same way.

This article http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/15076 quotes developers saying:

Ten Ton Hammer: As the final question, when balancing casters vs. tanks (or nukers vs. melee classes) what is the biggest challenge you face?

WAR Devs: Once again that's a bit too broad of an assumption. Certain careers just don't play nice with others… You can have two completely different types of tanks one that's great at soaking up physical damage (who will just get chewed up by mages) and the other that is really good at soaking magical damage types (nighty night Mr. Mage).

So you see, there's more to it than playstyle. A Black Orc (Greenskin Tank) may very well do better against physical damage than the Chosen(the Chaos Tank), while the Chosen does better than the B.O. at taking magical damage. So, it will definitely matter if two out of the three Order ranged dps classes are based on physical damage.

[Foofmonger]

You are oversimplifying. Not all tanks absorb damage in the same way.

This article http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/15076 quotes developers saying:

Ten Ton Hammer: As the final question, when balancing casters vs. tanks (or nukers vs. melee classes) what is the biggest challenge you face?

WAR Devs: Once again that's a bit too broad of an assumption. Certain careers just don't play nice with others… You can have two completely different types of tanks one that's great at soaking up physical damage (who will just get chewed up by mages) and the other that is really good at soaking magical damage types (nighty night Mr. Mage).


I am most definitly familiar with that article. But it still stands to reason that tanks will all be good against physical damage, and some will be better then other at mitigating magical, and some will be better then others at mitigating physical. Yet it still stands that they will all be good against physical dps.

So technically, I am not over-simplifying things. Obviously some will be better then others, and this isn't a point I am trying to content. However, the fact remains that ALL tanks will be good at mitigating physical damage, while some with be slightly better at taking magical then physical.




So you see, there's more to it than playstyle. A Black Orc (Greenskin Tank) may very well do better against physical damage than the Chosen(the Chaos Tank), while the Chosen does better than the B.O. at taking magical damage. So, it will definitely matter if two out of the three Order ranged dps classes are based on physical damage.

You keep saying there is more to it then playstyle, but then your arguments fall flat. How is it? This isn't really an explanation.

So what if a BO takes less physical damage then a Chosen, and the Chosen is better at taking magic damage? They will still both be better at taking physical damage then any other archetype (and most likely, magical as well). Yes, there might be slight differenees, but if you aren't even analyzing the playstyles, you are going to come at a very incomplete conlusion.

Your own argument that some tanks may function differently in the way they take damage directly contradicts your argument that it will "matter" if the two out of three order classes are based on physical damage.

If two of the destruction tanks are better at taking physical damage, and two of the order tanks are better at taking magical, then it would technically balance out according to your own argument!

For example. Lets say BO and BG are great at taking physical damage, and so-so at magical. While the Chosen is ok at physical and great at taking magic damage.

Then lets say that the IB is great at taking physical damage, but ok at magical. But the SM and KotBS are great at taking magical and ok at taking physical.

(I know this isn't a real argument, and I'm not trying to assert that the classes function this way).

Then why would it matter that the Order/Destruction classes don't have the same types of damage for their RDPS when the tanks of each faction would take damage differently? If you made it so the magic heavy side had physical resist tanks, and the physical heavy side had magic resist tanks, then it would inevitably balance out.

I'm not saying that this is the case, I'm just saying that I'm not the one oversimplifying things.

[Accipiter]

I can't follow your logic. You said "it's all about playstyle." That is an absolute statement. If it's ALL about playstyle then there cannot be other factors. Unless, when you use the word "all" you you mean something different from what the rest of us mean.

Logically the implications of your argument are that it doesn't matter if you are a Greenskin Tank or a Chaos Tank or a DE Tank, since all tanks are, well, tanks and have the same playstyle. But the devs have specifically said that different kinds of tanks absorb different kinds of damage differently. What that means is that it is not ALL about playstyle. There are other factors. Which was my point.

Let me see if I can say it another way. If the Greenskin tank absorbs physical damage better than the Chaos tank and 2 out of the 3 ranged DPS classes of the Order faction are based on physical damage, then the Greenskin Tank will have a natural advantage over the Chaos Tank.

Of course playstyle is a factor, but to say "it's ALL about playstyle" is an oversimplification. I stand by my argument.

[Foofmonger]

I can't follow your logic. You said "it's all about playstyle." That is an absolute statement. If it's ALL about playstyle then there cannot be other factors. Unless, when you use the word "all" you you mean something different from what the rest of us mean.


Playstyle incoporates many different things, including how much damage you take from different sources. If you are more likely to be damage by magic users, it inherantly ties into the playstyle of said class.


Logically the implications of your argument are that it doesn't matter if you are a Greenskin Tank or a Chaos Tank or a DE Tank, since all tanks are, well, tanks and have the same playstyle.


Not true. All tanks definitly do not have the same playstyle. What kind of assumption is that?


But the devs have specifically said that different kinds of tanks absorb different kinds of damage differently. What that means is that it is not ALL about playstyle. There are other factors. Which was my point.


That directly has to do with playstyle, which is my point. If you absorb damage in a certain way, it will play into your playstyle, espescially as a tank, whos main purpose is to mitigate said damage.


Let me see if I can say it another way. If the Greenskin tank absorbs physical damage better than the Chaos tank and 2 out of the 3 ranged DPS classes of the Order faction are based on physical damage, then the Greenskin Tank will have a natural advantage over the Chaos Tank.


Except when a Bright Wizard comes along and blows away the Greenskin tank. Some classes will have natural advantages over other classes, and vice versa. It isn't supposed to be exactly equal on the same side with the same exact class matchups, this is not WoW. Order and Destruction are fundamentally different and although they have some mirrors, they will most definitly play differently.


Of course playstyle is a factor, but to say "it's ALL about playstyle" is an oversimplification. I stand by my argument.

And assuming that the things you are talking about don't tie directly into a classes playstyle is a gross oversimplification.

[Accipiter]

Hum. I think I see the problem. My definition of "playstyle" is a bit more narrow than yours. To me, play style is more connected to the archtype concept. Ranged dps vs melee dps, for example, have very different playstyles. You seem to equate "playstyle" with the sum total of the specific class design.

And of course if you are using "playstyle" to mean "every single thing about the class" then yeah, "it's all about playstyle". But then the word ceases to have any meaning. You might as well say, "it's all about the class design". Which I would agree with. And it's why I started the thread in the first place.

I started this thread because, as of this moment, the Squig Herder is the only Ranged DPS Archtype in the Destruction faction who does physical damage. On the Order side of things they have 2 classes in the Ranged DPS archtype who do physical damage.

[Foofmonger]

I started this thread because, as of this moment, the Squig Herder is the only Ranged DPS Archtype in the Destruction faction who does physical damage. On the Order side of things they have 2 classes in the Ranged DPS archtype who do physical damage.

Well, thats assuming that the Sorc is indeed the Ranged DPS. Which while probably a good guess, is still a guess.

I just thought about it a bit in the shower and if the sorc is indeed RDPS here are some of my thoughts on how it matches-up.

A lot of people (myself included) saw the BW and the Magus as counterparts, due to the fact that they were the only magic users. However, after the Sorc description (and assuming its RDPS), this needs to be re-evaluated.

It seems to me that if the Sorc is RDPS, they are more like a BW then anything else (massive damage, little survivability). Their playstyles seem to be connected in a sort of "Burst damage glass cannon" class.

So this throws the Magus out of the window in that comparison. What is that Magus most like then? Even though they use magic, I see some parallels with a physical class, the SW.

As we know of them know, SW are supposed to be a very mobile class, capable of using their bow and feet to keep enemies away, or their meele weapons to finish off a foe that gets in range. This seems to fit under the "mobile ranged dpser" playstyle. The magus, as we know, also rides a disk, which seems to fit into the playstyle of being the more mobile of the ranged DPS classes. Also, we know that the disk is capable of making meele attacks, not unlike a shadow-warrior who is supposed to have some meele capacity.

As far as the two physical/one magic vs two magic/one physical thing goes, this can easily be balanced out by the other archetypes. Like stated above, if you have two physical resistant tanks/one magic resistant and then two magic resistant/one physical on each side respecitivly, it somewhat balances the entire thing out (except when you dip into meele DPS, because they all do physical damage).

Also remember Support classes still have damaging functions in the game, and most are at range as well.

The Shaman, Zealot, Archmage, and Runepriest all use magical damage types, while the WP doesn't (and per the DE healer, we just don't know). If the DE healer turns out to be a not physical damage class, then this once again throws the whole thing out the window.

The major assumption that is being made here is that the sides MUST be equal in damage types, which may just not be the case.

[Serai]

I've been hoping they'd find a way to throw in an archer class that's support as it is. If the support ends up a caster, I am definitely going to have to leave all my friends in destruction, just because none of the classes fulfill what I want. This is a sad, sad day for repeater xbow fans.

[Aviator]

I'm disappointed in the lack of non-pet archer classes on Destruction, especially since Order is getting two.

[Tlear]

I wonder if Sorceror and Magus magic will share resist, if they don't thats a nice advantage for Destruction

[Foofmonger]

I'm disappointed in the lack of non-pet archer classes on Destruction, especially since Order is getting two.

Really?

Whats the other one. I'd hardly call Engineer turrets pets..

[Aviator]

Really?

Whats the other one. I'd hardly call Engineer turrets pets..
I think you misunderstood what I said. Order currently has two non-pet, physical ranged damage classes (Engineer and Shadow Warrior). Destruction has none, since their only archer (Squig Herder) is also a pet class.

[Foofmonger]

I think you misunderstood what I said. Order currently has two non-pet, physical ranged damage classes (Engineer and Shadow Warrior). Destruction has none, since their only archer (Squig Herder) is also a pet class.

You realize each faction isn't carbon copies of each other right?

If white lions are in, destruction won't have any meele pet classes, so....

[Accipiter]

I'm disappointed in the lack of non-pet archer classes on Destruction, especially since Order is getting two.

Yeah, if I disliked pets I'd be disappointed as well. But from what I've seen of the squig abilities, I think they'll make for dynamic and creative play. They look like they will be used differently from, say, the WoW Hunter pet which is basically a DOT with legs. The Squig, by contrast, has enough fun tricks that it will be as fun to use as a bow.

But if you want to use a bow/gun and don't want to mess with a pet, it looks like Order is the way to go.

[Periwinkle]

I love the idea of the pet it kinda brings a strategic and challenging aspect to it. I love the idea of having the right squig out for different scenarios, but hopefully it doesn't gimp us too much. Never the less, I can't wait to get in there, and punking some dwarfs with my greenskin bretherin!

[Gemini]

I'm sorry you didn't get what you want, but they can't please everyone. It's just like people saying "I wanna male dark elf melee dps" or "I want to play an order melee healer with swords". Sorry, but Mythic can't give everything to everyone. If you set your sights on something so specific, then you run the risk of getting burned.

Me, I usally go with "I wanna play a barbaric meleer" and "I wanna play a badass caster." Chances are the game will have at least one of those, and I'm a happy gamer. WAR makes me a very, very happy gamer. Black Orc, Choppa, Marauder, Magus, Bright Wizard, Zealot, Sorcoress, Shaman, Witch Elf, ect ect. And those are just the ones that fall into those two categories...

*goes to sacrifice a virgin goat to the Beta gods.*

[Vidrak]

I wanted to play a squig herder, until I heard about what the class was. A ranged DPS goblin? It makes me wonder if anyone actually creating this game know how worthless goblins are. They are hardly "marksmen" or "top ranged DPS classes". Lol, especially when you say, compare them to a DE repeater crossbow man ... goblins are probably the worst ranged damage dealing creature in the game (right next to the Orcs!).

I thought the squig herder was going to be a pet class. Which it should be. A class where you are "trying to control your pet". Not a class with a 100% obedient pet and you shoot arrows at people. A goblin is a cunning creature, not a physically powerful creature. They should be relying on trickery and tactics with controlling the squig, NOT how well they can shoot a bow (they shoot bows piss poor).

You are better off puting a 10yr old kid with a slingshot in your army than a goblin archer. The squig is what should be doing the majority of the damage. The goblin should be doing next to no damage at all (compared to the squig at least).

Calling the Squig Herder a "ranged DPS" class is just incredibly stupid to me. I thought and still do think, it should be the "pet class". I think Mythic has severely ruined and toned down what Squigs really are in Warhammer. I hope they fix what they have already broken.

[Foofmonger]

:pI wanted to play a squig herder, until I heard about what the class was. A ranged DPS goblin? It makes me wonder if anyone actually creating this game know how worthless goblins are. They are hardly "marksmen" or "top ranged DPS classes". Lol, especially when you say, compare them to a DE repeater crossbow man ... goblins are probably the worst ranged damage dealing creature in the game (right next to the Orcs!).


And chances are, they do much less personal damage then any other ranged DPS class (like say an expert marksmen, the Shadow Warrior), they make up for this will probably high amounts of pet damage.

I thought the squig herder was going to be a pet class. Which it should be. A class where you are "trying to control your pet". Not a class with a 100% obedient pet and you shoot arrows at people. A goblin is a cunning creature, not a physically powerful creature. They should be relying on trickery and tactics with controlling the squig, NOT how well they can shoot a bow (they shoot bows piss poor).


It is a pet class, lol. While they will have some bow skills as well. I think squigs will be nearly 100% controllable, but they are expendable and switchable. Not only that but you can eat them to recover health and stuff. The goblin certainly will have a lot of tricky moves (for kiting and such purposes). So I don't think you will see that as a big problem.

You are better off puting a 10yr old kid with a slingshot in your army than a goblin archer. The squig is what should be doing the majority of the damage. The goblin should be doing next to no damage at all (compared to the squig at least).


For game balance reason, I find it likely that maybe a 60/40 spread would make sense (60 on the SH, 40 on the squig). Or maybe even a 70/30. Either way the SH would only be doing 60-70% of the dps of say a Shadow Warrior, without his squig.


Calling the Squig Herder a "ranged DPS" class is just incredibly stupid to me. I thought and still do think, it should be the "pet class". I think Mythic has severely ruined and toned down what Squigs really are in Warhammer. I hope they fix what they have already broken.

There is no "pet class" archetype. So if Squig Herders are to be in game, they need to be one of the four archetypes.

Support and tank would make no sense, a SH can't heal others, and is definitly worse as taking damage then he is using a bow. Hes also too fragile to be a meele DPS, and would probably even worse there then he would be as ranged dps.

Ranged dps is the only option really for have Squig Herders in game.

And remember, this is an MMO, its not an exact replica of the GW warhammer IP. Lore has to be broken for the sake of making a good MMO.

[Gemini]

Yeah, it makes no sense, but thats the cost of making it an MMO. Should Chosen be on the same level as a Marauder? Of course not, thats blasphemy. However, it has to be done for the sake of the game. Should the Archmage be on the same level as am Empire Wizard? Should a slightly more insane Orc boy (Choppa) stand toe to toe with the royal guard of the Dwarf King? I could go on.

[Riddly]

To reply to all the posts regarding physical vs magical RDPS against tanks, we may find that the impact is not as great as some of you think. In one of the podcasts, RDPS was said to have a slight advantage over tanks. They didn't specify that magic RDPS had the advantage they said the whole archetype did.

Now, if tanks naturally have more toughness/armor then that would greatly diminish or remove the advantage physical RDPS is supposed to have over tanks since physical RDPS would have to do more attacks/dmg to kill a tank than a caster would.

Now, you could say that maybe they get more kiting ability to compensate, but keep in mind that this would only be valuable in a 1v1 situation which as far as I can tell is not the focus of the game. As as RDPS, if it took you 30% longer to kill a tank than a caster, the time it takes you to deal that damage while kiting is additional damage you and your team have to deal with from the opposing side.

I guess my point is, they could break up physical dps into two categories, piercing and melee. Piercing dmg would not be affected (much) by a high armor value of a tank, whereas melee dmg would be affected by it and therefore the R/P/S thing works out across all the involved classes within an archetype instead of just magic based RDPS.

Anyways, it's just a thought. But I have a feeling they will keep true to the r/p/s thing and therefore, physical RDPS would need something to keep them competitive against tanks. (maybe a debuff that lowers armor for ranged attacks only?)

[Foofmonger]

Anyways, it's just a thought. But I have a feeling they will keep true to the r/p/s thing and therefore, physical RDPS would need something to keep them competitive against tanks. (maybe a debuff that lowers armor for ranged attacks only?)

Well, you can give the Physical dps more kiting/mobility options (which is what a lot of games do), where casters are a bit less mobile, and also tend to be a bit more fragile.

So if it really is an issue, I could see physical dps having:

1. Slightly better survivability.
2. Slightly better mobility.
2. Slightly better kiting tools.

[Riddly]

Well, you can give the Physical dps more kiting/mobility options (which is what a lot of games do), where casters are a bit less mobile, and also tend to be a bit more fragile.

So if it really is an issue, I could see physical dps having:

1. Slightly better survivability.
2. Slightly better mobility.
2. Slightly better kiting tools.

As soon as I read my post I knew someone would bring this up, so I edited my post to include...

Now, you could say that maybe they get more kiting ability to compensate, but keep in mind that this would only be valuable in a 1v1 situation which as far as I can tell is not the focus of the game. As as RDPS, if it took you 30% longer to kill a tank than a caster, the time it takes you to deal that damage while kiting is additional damage you and your team have to deal with from the opposing side.

But looks like you read it before I completed my edit. :rolleyes:

[Foofmonger]

As soon as I read my post I knew someone would bring this up, so I edited my post to include...



But looks like you read it before I completed my edit. :rolleyes:

Kiting isn't good in only 1vs1 situations, kiting is good for keeping yourself alive, period. As a hunter in WoW, I'd kite anywhere from 1-10 people at a single time, just to stay alive.

Think of it this way, a caster is doing a lot of damage to a tank, the tank notices, calls his meele dps to go take care of him. The caster isn't as mobile (meaning he can't do much damage while moving), and doesn't have very many kiting options. So as soon as the meele dps gets near him, he tries to run, they catch up, snare him, and he dies.

A physical rdps it that situation may be able to kite those meelers, still do damage to them while kiting, and not die at all in that scenario. In frustration, the wounded meele dps turn back to their group, to find that they got overrun because you just took 3 of their key fighters out of the battle for a signifcant amount of time.

[Riddly]

Kiting isn't good in only 1vs1 situations, kiting is good for keeping yourself alive, period. As a hunter in WoW, I'd kite anywhere from 1-10 people at a single time, just to stay alive.

Think of it this way, a caster is doing a lot of damage to a tank, the tank notices, calls his meele dps to go take care of him. The caster isn't as mobile (meaning he can't do much damage while moving), and doesn't have very many kiting options. So as soon as the meele dps gets near him, he tries to run, they catch up, snare him, and he dies.

A physical rdps it that situation may be able to kite those meelers, still do damage to them while kiting, and not die at all in that scenario. In frustration, the wounded meele dps turn back to their group, to find that they got overrun because you just took 3 of their key fighters out of the battle for a signifcant amount of time.

Besides the fact that you said you can kite 10 ppl in WoW, most of your arguement is valid. (Kiting via frost trap only works for a few seconds and only if all 10 ppl were morons and stood in one place could you pull it off for longer than that at which point it wouldn't be kiting but a duck shoot. To leave out any other arguement, don't say aspect of the cheetah is valid either...it's not).

Anyways, my point was that if you are dealing less damage to a tank than any other RDPS, then they will IGNORE you just like the hunters in WoW were ignored for a very long time because there are more easily dispatchable and deadly targets available. So even if you could kite 10 people, why would they follow unless you were the last target standing?

[Accipiter]

I wanted to play a squig herder, until I heard about what the class was. A ranged DPS goblin? It makes me wonder if anyone actually creating this game know how worthless goblins are. They are hardly "marksmen" or "top ranged DPS classes". Lol, especially when you say, compare them to a DE repeater crossbow man ... goblins are probably the worst ranged damage dealing creature in the game (right next to the Orcs!).

I thought the squig herder was going to be a pet class. Which it should be. A class where you are "trying to control your pet". Not a class with a 100% obedient pet and you shoot arrows at people. A goblin is a cunning creature, not a physically powerful creature. They should be relying on trickery and tactics with controlling the squig, NOT how well they can shoot a bow (they shoot bows piss poor).

You are better off puting a 10yr old kid with a slingshot in your army than a goblin archer. The squig is what should be doing the majority of the damage. The goblin should be doing next to no damage at all (compared to the squig at least).

Calling the Squig Herder a "ranged DPS" class is just incredibly stupid to me. I thought and still do think, it should be the "pet class". I think Mythic has severely ruined and toned down what Squigs really are in Warhammer. I hope they fix what they have already broken.


People that want to sacrifice everything on the altar of lore are bound to be disappointed by the realities of making a playable MMO. A class that could be compared to "a 10yr old kid with a slingshot" that does "next to no damage at all" is not going to be playable in a PVP-based MMO.

Honestly, I hate posts like this. The assumption that the developers of WAR have no knowledge of the IP is as breathtakingly ignorant as it is arrogant.

[Baron Khaine]

You can take your lore and shove it, you can run around with one of your pansy High Elf Shadow Warriors all you want, just cos there in the lore, and i'll run around with a Squig Herder and spank you all over the place.

Stupid Lore Junkies.

[Foofmonger]

Besides the fact that you said you can kite 10 ppl in WoW, most of your arguement is valid. (Kiting via frost trap only works for a few seconds and only if all 10 ppl were morons and stood in one place could you pull it off for longer than that at which point it wouldn't be kiting but a duck shoot. To leave out any other arguement, don't say aspect of the cheetah is valid either...it's not).
[quote]

Kiting 10 people isn't that hard. First of all, you need to get 10 people wanting to attack you (which usually doesn't happens). The frost trap should already be down at this point. They hit the trap, and immediatly you should be far enough away that nobody can hit you at this point (having entrapment always helped), and then you put your next frost down, and keep running. Anyone like a rogue who burned sprint gets conc shot/scattered (if I was MM at the time) or concshot/intim (if I was BM).

AoTC is only valid if you are far enough away that you can't get hit. At that point in time, its perfectly valid to use for an extra speed boost.

[quote]
Anyways, my point was that if you are dealing less damage to a tank than any other RDPS, then they will IGNORE you just like the hunters in WoW were ignored for a very long time because there are more easily dispatchable and deadly targets available. So even if you could kite 10 people, why would they follow unless you were the last target standing?

If you ignored my hunter in WoW, you died. Plain and simple. I was far more deadly then most locks/mages/spriests/etc... I could put out so much sustained damage (and not have to worry about being spell interrupted or silenced), that I'd drop PoM/Pyro mages before they could get the fireblast off after pyro (ie, i killed them before they could get past their second GCD).

Just because I did slightly less damage against tanks didn't mean I was useless (although fighting pallies was kinda useless as a hunter, no reliable spell interrupts + plate + heals = waste of time). Warriors were fine though. One of my most killed classes (a warrior out of intercept range will never catch you unless he mounts up). And if I was ever kiting 1-2 people and one of them mounted, I'd make sure to get them in a freezing trap and either take out their friends or hit them with an Aimed/Multi/Steady/Auto/Arcane barrage before they could even respond.

[Riddly]

Well, I won't debate you any further than this Foof since I doubt there is anything I could say to disway your ego from thinking you can take on 10 competent players at once.

But every class in that game has a counter to frost trap with which to close the distance, and I'm sorry but with cooldowns, it just isn't possible so scatter/conc shot 10 players that would no doubt use those abilities. Not to mention this steady flow of damage you speak of is easier to heal through than burst damage and therefore not as high of priority.

As for my guess that the squig herder's dps might get ignored if it was mechanically similiar to a hunters, I stand by that statement. Yes, if someone ignores you they will die eventually...the key word being eventually. However, the point is how many of your teamates died before you killed that player? Eventually works very well in 1v1, but not quite as good in group situations.

The arguement isn't whether kiting is good or not, it most definetly is a useful skill to have. For me, the problem lies where you "potentially" have a class with lower damage but makes up for it in better survivability. This type of class is already taken by the tank archetype, but they make up for it by having buffs and debuffs that change the group dynamic dramatically. If you take the "dps" part of the "RDPS" archetype seriously, then the role of the classes within that group should be to dish out damage at range, all of which imo should have kiting capabilities to keep that range. Using an example, say for instance you find yourself in a 10v10 situation, while you "eventually" kill the player that "ignored" you, 2-3 of your teamates may already be dead in which you are then in a 9v7 that would be far more difficult to overcome.

All I'm saying is that it is my hope that each class poses a significant enough threat because of how they play that there isn't a cookie cutter pre-determined order on "who dies first". A class that can run away well in heavier armor dealing less damage (aka kiting hunters in WoW) doesn't pose as big of threat as the squishy caster blowing things up at an alarming rate.

I would guess Mythic is trying hard to make each class a good enough threat where skill is more of a factor than class type...atleast I hope.

[Foofmonger]

Well, I won't debate you any further than this Foof since I doubt there is anything I could say to disway your ego from thinking you can take on 10 competent players at once.


I didn't say I would kill them. I just said kite them.


But every class in that game has a counter to frost trap with which to close the distance, and I'm sorry but with cooldowns, it just isn't possible so scatter/conc shot 10 players that would no doubt use those abilities. Not to mention this steady flow of damage you speak of is easier to heal through than burst damage and therefore not as high of priority.


Are you kidding me? If i have a frost trap set down beforehand, nobody has a counter to it (sans someone being immune to it). They wouldn't even know it was there until they started to go over it anyway (and I wouldn't be standing near the trap, I place them between me and the opposing force). I would already have a second trap down immediatly as the first one triggered, meaning that to catch me they would have again run through another frost trap.

Plus I had entrapment, which had a high chance (espescially when I played), of rooting people in the trap, often multiple times in a row.


As for my guess that the squig herder's dps might get ignored if it was mechanically similiar to a hunters, I stand by that statement. Yes, if someone ignores you they will die eventually...the key word being eventually. However, the point is how many of your teamates died before you killed that player? Eventually works very well in 1v1, but not quite as good in group situations.


And like I said with my wow hunter, I outdpsed mages/warlocks/rogues etc.. on a consistent basis, even on higher armor targets. Just because magical dps has an advantage doesn't mean its always going to be greater.


The arguement isn't whether kiting is good or not, it most definetly is a useful skill to have. For me, the problem lies where you "potentially" have a class with lower damage but makes up for it in better survivability.


But the potentially lower damage is only on higher armor targets. Potentially, on targets with little to no armor, a physical RDPS could exceed the damage of a magical RDPS by a whole lot.

My whole point with "kiting 10 people" thing is that it is immesnly helpful in a battle.

Lets say not even 10 but 5.

So lets say its a 20vs20 battle, you start drawing attention to yourself, and 2 tanks and 3 meele dps try to cut you down. You kite them for 30 seconds-1 minute before they finally catch you. By the time they turn around to head back, their whole team was crushed by losing 5 people to your 1 (ie it turned into a 14vs19 battle for a minute, and in that minute, the 14 couldn't hold out). So lets say they get back, and 5 of their members died so far. Now its still 14vs19, and they still get crushed.

[Riddly]

I didn't say I would kill them. I just said kite them.

I didn't say you'd kill them either, I said you'd take them on.



Are you kidding me? If i have a frost trap set down beforehand, nobody has a counter to it (sans someone being immune to it). They wouldn't even know it was there until they started to go over it anyway (and I wouldn't be standing near the trap, I place them between me and the opposing force). I would already have a second trap down immediatly as the first one triggered, meaning that to catch me they would have again run through another frost trap.

Didn't think I needed to point out all the counters, but I guess I do. Besides diminishing returns and cooldowns ruling out the possibility of continually trapping the same 10 players for an extended period, on an individual basis, the following abilities all help close distance on a ranged player of which you can't stop more than 1-2 with scatter shot and conc shot...

Deathcoil, fear, frost shock, charge, intercept, mind flay, conc/scatter shot, travel form, cyclone, root, frost bolt, cone of cold, blink, blind, deadly throw, sprint, seal of ???? to name a few.


And like I said with my wow hunter, I outdpsed mages/warlocks/rogues etc.. on a consistent basis, even on higher armor targets. Just because magical dps has an advantage doesn't mean its always going to be greater.

This all depends on gear, so it's pointless to debate as I bet countless mages/warlocks/rogues would say they out dps'd hunters on a consistent basis. However, if you check my post again, the issue was burst damage and how well a person can heal through it. Not to mention your performance does not neccesarily mimic that of the majority. Take a look at wow web stats which records statistics like dps for high end guilds. You'll see a mix of players all over the place depending on the fight. But on average, I think you should take note of why guilds bring less hunters than they do mages/locks/rogues.

But the potentially lower damage is only on higher armor targets. Potentially, on targets with little to no armor, a physical RDPS could exceed the damage of a magical RDPS by a whole lot.

True, and if they keep with the idea that ballistic damage will be affected by armor versus calling it peircing damage and making it be on par with magic then yes your right and I never said otherwise.

My whole point with "kiting 10 people" thing is that it is immesnly helpful in a battle.

Lets say not even 10 but 5.

So lets say its a 20vs20 battle, you start drawing attention to yourself, and 2 tanks and 3 meele dps try to cut you down. You kite them for 30 seconds-1 minute before they finally catch you. By the time they turn around to head back, their whole team was crushed by losing 5 people to your 1 (ie it turned into a 14vs19 battle for a minute, and in that minute, the 14 couldn't hold out). So lets say they get back, and 5 of their members died so far. Now its still 14vs19, and they still get crushed.

You assume that many people will follow you. In my experience in MMO's there were two cases where that many people would consistently follow you. 1) You hold an important objective like a flag or 2) your the last person alive. In those two cases, yes mass kiting is awesome.

To give you a perfect example that any WoW player such as yourself can understand, I give you the druid in WSG. Prior to druids getting a damage buff, any feral or moonkin druid was entirely IGNORED on the battlefield due to weaker damage and higher survivability, EXCEPT when they carried the flag at which point every enemy player chased them and druids were very capable kiters in this situation. How many successful flag carries do hunters have? There are 10 people on that map...starting to see my point?

Let's pick your example apart some. You first said, "you start drawing attention to yourself, and 2 tanks and 3 melee follow." My question is, how would you draw attention to yourself unless one of the two circumstances I mentioned above were present? This whole debate started on the fact that in order to compensate for lower damage the ranged person would have more survivability through kiting. Therefore, if you had lower damage, you would not draw their attention over higher threats.

IF you could for some reason get their attention, then your example is valid. For example, a tank can debuff their enemies so that they deal less damage, that is how they could get their attention, but again, that is a different archetype than RDPS. So unless Mythic creates a ranged tank (who knows they might someday) I don't see that happening.

Bottom line, even if 5 people started in your direction and you snared them to get ranged and kept running if they got closer, most if not all of them would turn to an easier target. 1) Competitive players don't stray too far from their team or objective 2) Inexperienced players don't usually chase a single player for one kill when there are other players that are easier and closer to them. So both ends of the skill spectrum are covered and niether typically would mindlessly follow a single player.

[Foofmonger]

I didn't say you'd kill them either, I said you'd take them on.


If by taking them on, you meant kite them, then you are correct.



Didn't think I needed to point out all the counters, but I guess I do. Besides diminishing returns and cooldowns ruling out the possibility of continually trapping the same 10 players for an extended period,


When I played entrapment had no DR.


on an individual basis, the following abilities all help close distance on a ranged player of which you can't stop more than 1-2 with scatter shot and conc shot...

Deathcoil, fear, frost shock, charge, intercept, mind flay, conc/scatter shot, travel form, cyclone, root, frost bolt, cone of cold, blink, blind, deadly throw, sprint, seal of ???? to name a few.


The whole point is that I am far enough away where the only person who could potentially use an ability on me would be another hunter. Or far enough away that nobody can use a single thing on me. Its called learning how to kite at 41+ yards away. If you think that I'm trying to kite 10+ people in intercept range, then you never seen a decent hunter.


This all depends on gear, so it's pointless to debate as I bet countless mages/warlocks/rogues would say they out dps'd hunters on a consistent basis. However, if you check my post again, the issue was burst damage and how well a person can heal through it.


I could provide amazing burst damage (I said i'd kill PoM pyro mages before they could even get their fireblast off), and ridiculous sustained dps at the same time. I'd win 2vs2 arena battles because the paladin couldn't outheal my sustained dps.


Not to mention your performance does not neccesarily mimic that of the majority. Take a look at wow web stats which records statistics like dps for high end guilds. You'll see a mix of players all over the place depending on the fight. But on average, I think you should take note of why guilds bring less hunters than they do mages/locks/rogues.


I don't really want to get into this, but the basic reasoning is that the hunter is the hardest class to DPS properly with in a pve setting. You have to time your attack rotation to tenths of a second will all sorts of haste factored in (if you wanted to do as much dps as possible). In pve I'd have anywhere from 35%-200% haste on me at any given time (35% was passive). I would have to alter my shot cycle within tenths of a second to time it right, and adjust that for how much haste on me at any given time.

Which is far harder then dpsing with a lock/mage/rogue. You would need a shot timing mod with steady shot just to be able to roughly compete.


True, and if they keep with the idea that ballistic damage will be affected by armor versus calling it peircing damage and making it be on par with magic then yes your right and I never said otherwise.


Aye we will have to wait and see.


You assume that many people will follow you. In my experience in MMO's there were two cases where that many people would consistently follow you. 1) You hold an important objective like a flag or 2) your the last person alive. In those two cases, yes mass kiting is awesome.


How about 3, You are really pissing them off by consistently killing them, they know who you are, and continually keep trying to kill you. Used to happen to me all the time.


To give you a perfect example that any WoW player such as yourself can understand, I give you the druid in WSG. Prior to druids getting a damage buff, any feral or moonkin druid was entirely IGNORED on the battlefield due to weaker damage and higher survivability, EXCEPT when they carried the flag at which point every enemy player chased them and druids were very capable kiters in this situation. How many successful flag carries do hunters have? There are 10 people on that map...starting to see my point?


Hunters in my experience were a prime target for most classes, so I was always getting attacked and kited. Massive damage, combined with lots of CC at range, combined with the fact that if you just completely own someone, they rez and go right for you to get revenge. I'd see people just run past the flag carrier to try and kill me on numerous occasions.

And actually hunters are decent flag-runners. Probably the second best after druids. You have a high amount of armor (only lower then a warrior/pally/bear druid), a high amount of hp (more then anything then a warrior/bear druid), a mobility buff (useful for when people aren't pursuing you yet), and if you were BM specced like I was mostly, 20 seconds of unCCability. Not too shabby flag runners if you ask me.


Let's pick your example apart some. You first said, "you start drawing attention to yourself, and 2 tanks and 3 melee follow." My question is, how would you draw attention to yourself unless one of the two circumstances I mentioned above were present? This whole debate started on the fact that in order to compensate for lower damage the ranged person would have more survivability through kiting. Therefore, if you had lower damage, you would not draw their attention over higher threats.


But the lower damage model is only against higher armor targets. If you as a squig hunter are targetting their support, they are not going to let you just blast their healers into oblivion.


Bottom line, even if 5 people started in your direction and you snared them to get ranged and kept running if they got closer, most if not all of them would turn to an easier target. 1) Competitive players don't stray too far from their team or objective 2) Inexperienced players don't usually chase a single player for one kill when there are other players that are easier and closer to them. So both ends of the skill spectrum are covered and niether typically would mindlessly follow a single player.

You would be surprised my friend, and how personal in-game things can get. When you really piss people off, it doesn't matter if they are "compeitive" or "inexperienced", they will forget everything just to get revenge.

[Riddly]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. It's very tempting to add a rebuttle to everything you said as there are so many things I see wrong with it, but it's almost 5 so I don't plan to as I know it won't make a difference. Your signature says ex-70 hunter so I can't help but think you are a little bias on the issue and therefore are less likely to understand my point of view.

But I'll leave you with this...PVP is not so cut and dry as you make it sound. These are people on the other side of the screen, not bots.

[Foofmonger]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. It's very tempting to add a rebuttle to everything you said as there are so many things I see wrong with it, but it's almost 5 so I don't plan to as I know it won't make a difference. Your signature says ex-70 hunter so I can't help but think you are a little bias on the issue and therefore are less likely to understand my point of view.

But I'll leave you with this...PVP is not so cut and dry as you make it sound. These are people on the other side of the screen, not bots.

I'm not trying to say that it always works in one way, and I am not trying to imply that pvp is cut and dry. I was just proposing a possible scenario. Obviously, things can happen very differently.

Honestly, most of what we disagree about is the importance of kiting, and some WoW nonsense, and we tend to agree on pretty much everything else.

I honestly wish I took my screenshots of my WoW days, I could post pictures of me being 1st in damage and kills in almost every BG I was ever in, and on the top of PvE damage charts, except that I didn't take any screenies (although I will look on my other comp). So I can't prove anything I am saying, which makes me feel bad.

[RexT]

I'm with Foof on this, it really isn't that hard to kite multiple people if you know what you are doing. Here is a screenie of me in WSG back when I still played WoW (arena season1?) as a moderately geared frost mage.

http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pwnagewsgxi6.jpg

That's me in the number 4 spot, as you can see I really didn't do a whole lot of damage but those 3 caps and returns came from me sneaking around and solo kiting pretty much their entire team. Well placed snares can go a long way if you know what you are doing.

[Trennet]

*EDITED for content*

[BadTouch]

I am going to quickly interfere... accipter, getting back to your original point... yes i too believe it is interesting however you pointed out yourself that order and destruction are perfectly balanced. as for the extremely conversations stretching from page 2-3 i didnt have time to read all of it. After reviewing it we have gotten off topic but i will contribute to... first off, i know WoW is a good game, i played since the release but PLEASE OPEN UP!!! this is WAR not a spin off of WoW... just because WoW did it doesnt make it right so please void the WoW talk. I do it as well and i am getting off of it because it is not a completely valid comparison... if you wanted to discuss DAoC which Mythic made to WAR. We know that so far there will be no traps in WAR, that kiting will probably be a use of support spells + squig + running/jumping.

to summarize and just bring up the initial question by accipter; in an archeatype perspective both order and destruction are balanced and i am sure that the Devs will make this delicate equation of power as equal as possible.

[Riddly]

I'm with Foof on this, it really isn't that hard to kite multiple people if you know what you are doing.

Multiple, sure.
Ten, please.:rolleyes: Anyone who claims they can regularly take on 10 people solo needs an ego check.

[Foofmonger]

Multiple, sure.
Ten, please.:rolleyes: Anyone who claims they can regularly take on 10 people solo needs an ego check.

Or frost trap and entrapment pre-DR.

And I never said "take on", for the last time I said kite. Kite doesn't imply that you kill any of them, it means that you run away and they don't catch you.

My hunters name was freakin Catchme, I had to kite every single alliance char I ever met based on my name alone. Trust me, it wasn't that hard.

[Lionheart]

It was stated in a interview that the herder would be a very unique class that you need to give more credit too, you are able to get inside the squig and use it like a pilot among other abilities obviously at later levels,

Seeing as its been stated that there are different types of squigs; maybe theres a high defence squig that you pilot to have high defence or a ranged dps for example.

I think the herder will be the class to play for people that played MMO's for a long and need a new unique class to play.

[BadTouch]

II think the herder will be the class to play for people that played MMO's for a long and need a new unique class to play.

eh, well i am not going to deny your opinion but this is a pretty generic class as far as archetype, however i believe the sorcerer is a more unique class (a class of chance).

[ChaosTheory]

I had a question about Squig Herders. When i was reading about them i got the impression that you had multiple squigs under your control. Is this true or is it just one?

[Vaelar]

I had a question about Squig Herders. When i was reading about them i got the impression that you had multiple squigs under your control. Is this true or is it just one?


Just one. And it seems that for the most part they will be more on the 'disposable' side. So imagine summoning a squig, sending him in, he dies, and you rinse, lather, repeat. All the while raining death from afar.

Of course, I don't doubt that one of the masteries will affect squig power, so if you so choose, you could prolly make your squigs a lot nastier (at the expense of potentially more personal damage dealing ability).

[ChosenOne]

I had a question about Squig Herders. When i was reading about them i got the impression that you had multiple squigs under your control. Is this true or is it just one?

You have multiple types of squigs. Not all available at the beginning. You can only summon one at a time though so you have to choose the right squig for the moment.

[Lionheart]

Some more info on Herders

Horned Squig
Attacks enemies with its giant horn in melee combat. Very durable and tough to bring down.

Spiked Squig
Deals high damage to enemies from range. Durable, but not as solid as the Horned Squig.

Gas Squig
Fills large areas with poisonous gas, debuffing mass amounts of enemies all at once. Vulnerable to attack.

Battle Squig
Swallows the Squig Herder whole, allowing the Squig Herder to directly control the Battle Squig by pulling on its intestines. A very strong squig in combat situations.

The Squig Herder also has access to abilities that effect his squig - ranging from augmentations that increase attack damage to taking direct control of a squig. If the Squig Herder falls in combat, his squig minion continues its relentless attack - simply slaying the herder does not guarantee victory.

And a level 4 morale

Squigbeast 4 N/A Your pet squig becomes massive for 15 seconds, tripling all damage that it deals. <--- sounds awsome.

[Accipiter]

I had a question about Squig Herders. When i was reading about them i got the impression that you had multiple squigs under your control. Is this true or is it just one?

Just one squig. We had a massive debate about it in this forum with the thread running about 15 pages before a Mythic employee came in and said, "Just one squig at a time".

We all thought the class description page on WAR's official website needed to be rewritten because it DOES make it sound like there are multiple pets out at the same time. It sounds like no editing has been done and it's still misleading people.

[Necrophagist]

Regularly? No, but it is possible when you're wearing a bunch of tier 3 and have a shitload of trinkets to remove combat and snares and crap, haha. It can be done every now and then, it's just harder depending on who's chasing you. I remember kiting 6-10 people every now and then in a BG using Aspect of the Cheetah and tactical feign death + freezing trap (Mind you, before they implemented DR on that one) and killing them without too too much trouble.

But when you really look at it, that's all about gear and how much damage you can do before they finally catch up to you because you hit a weird spot on the terrain. WAR isn't as much about gear so I think it'll be interesting.

But that's not to say that kiting won't be an effective way to defeat 1-3 opponents at once. Especially in PVE, it'll make for some relatively easy leveling.