Annoyed

[Taurth]

The recent information about male Sorcerers has rekindled my annoyance about Marauders and Chosen being male only.

Its indeed a dead horse, but I think now is the time for Mythic to make female classes for Chaos.

Mythic didn't seem to intend to implement Sorcerers, judging by the podcast, and simply decided to implement them by chance because the concept art they got back had a male which they thought looked cool. There wouldn't be a male Sorcerer if that didn't happen.

Personally I believe a male Sorcerer was planned when Greenskins were the only gender restricted class and thats why we heard so much about them getting permission from GW, but decided to only make Sorceresses when they decided to go for two male only classes for Chaos (god knows why, their reasoning was just plain wrong) to "balance" things out.

Now since new lore directly conflicts with Sorcerers being in game, I think Chaos should get their gender restrictions removed since there is no lore which says Chaos is male only, infact its probably the least gender restrictive race bar Dark Elves and possibly High Elves in the game, yet exceptions were made for Empire and even Dwarfs, and now for Sorcerers.

So what does everyone else think? It'd be helpful if people didn't flood this thread with comments about beating a dead horse. I know that, but due to this recent announcement I feel it brings even more evidence that the Chosen and Marauder shouldn't be male only.

[Izen]

wel in warhammer there are male sorceressezzz or w/e
Tho malekith orders them to be killed doesnt mean all get killed I know still abit strange that they are fighting for him if they are practaly dead to maly

[dutch_gamer]

I am in total agreement with you. I haven't always supported this stance but now I do. When they add male Sorcerers in such a ladida kind of way, there should be no restrictions for Chaos either. If one particular career next to Witch Elves had to be gender restricted, it is the Sorceress.

I also don't think that this time around it is a dead horse. Mythic themselves have revitalized the horse by adding the male Sorcerer because they look "awesome". I can't believe they use that as a reason and don't add female Chosen and Marauders because of lore. It has been proven countless of times that there is no lore against the inclusion of female Chosen and Marauders. When some as "manly" as Khorne has female Chosen, then I don't see why there wouldn't be Tzeentchian Chosen. Heck, his colors are even somewhat more "feminine".

wel in warhammer there are male sorceressezzz or w/e
Tho malekith orders them to be killed doesnt mean all get killed I know still abit strange that they are fighting for him if they are practaly dead to maly

It is leap from them not being killed, to them openly showing they are Sorcerers in front of Malekith's watchful eye on his own Black Ark. When Mythic and GW don't see this as an issue, then female Chosen and Marauders should be even less so.

[Foofmonger]

I'll pass personally.

I for one don't want to see female Chosen running around with weird looking chest-plates, or grotesque mutated women out of Total recall.

Regardless of the fact that there are going to be male sorceres, I just think having female Chosen/Marauders would be silly.

[Varcan]

I'll pass personally.

I for one don't want to see female Chosen running around with weird looking chest-plates, or grotesque mutated women out of Total recall.

Regardless of the fact that there are going to be male sorceres, I just think having female Chosen/Marauders would be silly.

I totally agree with you.

Though I can see how this issue is strictly based on personal preference.

[Serai]

Yeah, Male Sorcerers just because they "look good" is a bit overreaching. Especially since they're supposed to be the male counterpart to a class more overtly sexual than the Witch elf, and they are practically suffocating in cloth- it's ridiculous. I'm not asking for a nut sling or anything, but they should at least show they're chest a little, or have sleeveless robes... I was hoping the female and fan base would have eye candy as a counterpart to what the witch elf and sorceress is supposed to be.

[Farside]

Personally, I think there's more behind Mythic's decision for male Sorcerers besides "they look great". I'm guessing this is just Paul going overboard on his explinations.

[Izen]

It is leap from them not being killed, to them openly showing they are Sorcerers in front of Malekith's watchful eye on his own Black Ark. When Mythic and GW don't see this as an issue, then female Chosen and Marauders should be even less so.

Thats abit what I ment tho didnt came out right =p

[ApricotSoup]

I've personally been wanting to play a female marauder since the class was announced back in the day and I know I'm not alone so there is definitely a player-base for female versions which will likely end up being a lot more played and in fitting with the lore than the damn dwarf females.

[Xilbalba]

I agree with you that the decision to exclude female Maurauder/Chosen but include male Sorcerors was a bad move on Mythics part and that their reasoning for it (until we get furthur info) was BS (it looks cool?).

I mean yeah sure, 40% of this games hype is around looking cool, but why break lore and do edition jumping just to get a male sorceror into the game while totally ignoring females for Chosen and Maurauders? I'm gonna use a feminist approach here, it's a bit sexist in an unintentional way don't you think?

Although it probably stems from the psychological conditioning we all go through as children to see women as either weak, submissive or sex objects (witch elves), hence to imagine that they would not fit in with a rugged chaos warband. Tbh there are almost no hulking women figures in media (which is unwilling to portray them in these rolls) today.

You get your stong women but they are always cute or sexy or attractive (if they're not then they're usually older women drawing comparisons with the authorative mother figure) and using their female wiles to get their way. Rarely do you see the hulking woman that looks like she's from a body building competiton (hell, last one I remeber was Red Sonya and she wasn't really buff just hot) who can rip your arms off at the shoulder. Why you say? Becuase that would intrude upon ground that males have traditionally dominated.

So in short unless they come up with a better reason for this I'm gonna fall in with the group that says female chosen and maurauders should be allowed. Everything else has been said in this thread or previous ones. Probably even this but I'm not gonna check. ;)

Edit: Oh yeah dwarves don't count, they're midgets hell even that's more common than a buff chick. Not even gonna get into the slender femal WP's or KoTBS.

[Jegger]

... When they add male Sorcerers in such a ladida kind of way, there should be no restrictions for Chaos either. If one particular career next to Witch Elves had to be gender restricted, it is the Sorceress.

... Mythic themselves have revitalized the horse by adding the male Sorcerer because they look "awesome".

... It is leap from them not being killed, to them openly showing they are Sorcerers in front of Malekith's watchful eye on his own Black Ark. ...

This (789)

[Lord Tareq]

Isn't a chosen encased in armor he can't remove? What does it matter that you can't have a female figure inside of it which you will never see anyway?

[ChosenOne]

Witch Elves are still female only. But Sorcs instead of being made female only to counterbalance the Chaos male side they went both sexes for sorcs.

Thus I am thinking Mythic could save itself in this by making marauders male and female and keeping their hard line with the chosen by keeping them male only. They want the Chosen to remain that larger masculine look. If they made them female too they would Definately have to change that.

But the marauders can have a feminine look (sorta) and still look iconic. I would agree, set up the marauder for females too.

[Taurth]

Isn't a chosen encased in armor he can't remove? What does it matter that you can't have a female figure inside of it which you will never see anyway?In the lower tiers of the game they aren't, and there will likely be an option to turn your helmet off anyway.

Besides, if you're roleplaying a female Chosen everyones going to instantly address you as male, including NPC's.

[Ganymed]

Isn't a chosen encased in armor he can't remove? What does it matter that you can't have a female figure inside of it which you will never see anyway?

agree. female chosen looks the same as male chosen, fully encased in armor. but u can be sure a lot of those crying around for female chosen want to see females with some sort of plate bikinis and plate suspender belts ...

the only other thing i want to say to that matter is: I'm just happy i dont care about the whole female/male thingie that much, thats too nerdy even for my taste. getting upset cause of something unimportant like that ...

[Taurth]

agree. female chosen looks the same as male chosen, fully encased in armor. but u can be sure a lot of those crying around for female chosen want to see females with some sort of plate bikinis and plate suspender belts ...

the only other thing i want to say to that matter is: I'm just happy i dont care about the whole female/male thingie that much, thats too nerdy even for my taste. getting upset cause of something unimportant like that ...
You may think its stupid, but because the lore even has examples of female Chaos warriors, theres no reason not to include them.

Dwarf females never fight, yet an exception was made for them.
You never hear of female Knights of the Empire, or Witch Hunters, yet exceptions were made for them.
Now they've even added male Sorcerers because they "look awesome", despite new lore being completely against them. Thats not "there wasn't much mentioned about them so we decided not to add them" which is basically the case for the Chaos Chosen and Marauder. Its "Male Sorcerers are put to death at birth because Malekith commands it".

Mythic shouldn't be able to just pick and choose like that because they think something looks cool, despite it being against the lore, whilst not bothering with other classes even though lore isn't against them, or even in favor of them.

[Foofmonger]

You may think its stupid, but because the lore even has examples of female Chaos warriors, theres no reason not to include them.

Dwarf females never fight, yet an exception was made for them.
You never hear of female Knights of the Empire, or Witch Hunters, yet exceptions were made for them.
Now they've even added male Sorcerers because they "look awesome", despite new lore being completely against them. Thats not "there wasn't much mentioned about them so we decided not to add them" which is basically the case for the Chaos Chosen and Marauder. Its "Male Sorcerers are put to death at birth because Malekith commands it".

Mythic shouldn't be able to just pick and choose like that because they think something looks cool, despite it being against the lore, whilst not bothering with other classes even though lore isn't against them, or even in favor of them.

They should and are able to do such a thing. They are making this game lol.

I think female Chosen/Marauders would look silly, and I don't give a damn about the lore.

[Taurth]

They should and are able to do such a thing. They are making this game lol.

I think female Chosen/Marauders would look silly, and I don't give a damn about the lore.Thats precisely why you don't understand my point. Sure they can do it, but making exceptions for other races whilst not doing the same for others, withought justifiable reasons isn't fair.

[Baron Khaine]

I follow the Lore closely, and even though they've broke it a few times, (Dwarf Women), I for one stand by Mythic's decision to not have female Marauders, don't care bout Chosen's, thats there problem, but I for one do not wish to see female Marauders, mainly because

A) Marauders are supposed to be big, manly Vikings, with mutations.
B) Yes there are female Marauders in the lore, but I honestly do not want to see those translated into this game, the models would look hideous.
C) I like Beards.
D) Even if they were in game, I wouldn't play one, and I think thats the reason that Mythic chose not to put them in the game, most blokes who play female classes in MMO's, and lasses who play female classes, in my experience anyway, prefer to play the "Pretty" female classes more than the ugly female classes. Why waste the effort on a gender option that no one will pick? Or a very small proportion of people will pick? Mythic can't cater for everyone, and i'd much rather they put features in that everyone will use, instead of putting in female Marauders that only a small amount of people would play.

[NoneSuch]

Majority of reasons for not having female Chosen or marauders ingame are Down-right Awful, Seriously Not liking the look of females with mutations or being in a more fighty brutal role is not valid excuse for them to not be implanted.

Simply because you wouldn't play one, dosn't mean it shouldn't be an OPTION To play them. Baron You might aswell scrap the entire idea of not putting features in not that many people will play, we could pretty much remove the entire dwarf race on that idea or atleast almost certainly female dwarfs.

It's not about that - It's about putting in options. No I don't want Plate bikinies or large , or any childish bollocks like that. I would like to see them simply ingame , fitting the class and the lore while looking Warhammirsh.

They don't need to look "SEXY" or feminine, That's not the point of female classes. What annoys me is IT CAN be done well, They just have decided against it for some unknown reason while giving us a pathetic excuse.

If they believe they couldn't "Imagine" Females in those roles, then they certainly are un-imaginative and narrow-minded, as I've seen multiple fanart which looks absoloutly great while they're obviously female - they didn't lose the appearance of being chosen.

And to those who say - " It dosn't matter on the sex" I'd absoloutly love If mythic announced they where removing Male Chosen, or Male Bright wizards and only implanting female versions. The outcry would be immense, Simply because YOU don't see the reason or the need , dosn't mean there aren't people out there who aren't going to want them in and be dissapointed if they aren't.

[Taurth]

Majority of reasons for not having female Chosen or marauders ingame are Down-right Awful, Seriously Not liking the look of females with mutations or being in a more fighty brutal role is not valid excuse for them to not be implanted.

Simply because you wouldn't play one, dosn't mean it shouldn't be an OPTION To play them. Baron You might aswell scrap the entire idea of not putting features in not that many people will play, we could pretty much remove the entire dwarf race on that idea or atleast almost certainly female dwarfs.

It's not about that - It's about putting in options. No I don't want Plate bikinies or large , or any childish bollocks like that. I would like to see them simply ingame , fitting the class and the lore while looking Warhammirsh.

They don't need to look "SEXY" or feminine, That's not the point of female classes. What annoys me is IT CAN be done well, They just have decided against it for some unknown reason while giving us a pathetic excuse.

If they believe they couldn't "Imagine" Females in those roles, then they certainly are un-imaginative and narrow-minded, as I've seen multiple fanart which looks absoloutly great while they're obviously female - they didn't lose the appearance of being chosen.

And to those who say - " It dosn't matter on the sex" I'd absoloutly love If mythic announced they where removing Male Chosen, or Male Bright wizards and only implanting female versions. The outcry would be immense, Simply because YOU don't see the reason or the need , dosn't mean there aren't people out there who aren't going to want them in and be dissapointed if they aren't.
Agreed.

The concept artists for Mythic are in my opinion brilliant and I'll wholeheartedly say they've created some of the best concept art I've ever seen, and I refuse to believe that they couldn't come up with something that looks atleast as "awesome" as the Sorcerer, which in my opinion looks bland.

The excuses aren't justified, and exceptions have been made for other races. Female Marauders and Chosen should be in the game.

[Foofmonger]

Thats precisely why you don't understand my point. Sure they can do it, but making exceptions for other races whilst not doing the same for others, withought justifiable reasons isn't fair.

Who said the devs are trying to be fair?

I understand your point perfectly, I just don't agree with it. I simply think female Chosen/Marauders would look silly. It has nothing to do with lore, with other races/classes, with anything else. They just don't work well in my view.

[Jerrus]

Wasn't it also about the actual models, also?

Dark Elf Sorcerors will probably use the "generic Dark Elf Male model", used by ALL Dark Elf males in the game. While Chosen and Marauders will NOT be using "generic Human Male model" because of size and mutations.

[Gemini]

Wasn't it also about the actual models, also?

Dark Elf Sorcerors will probably use the "generic Dark Elf Male model", used by ALL Dark Elf males in the game. While Chosen and Marauders will NOT be using "generic Human Male model" because of size and mutations.

Yes, that was mentioned as a factor in their decision, one of many.

[Saerain]

Mythic didn't seem to intend to implement Sorcerers, judging by the podcast, and simply decided to implement them by chance because the concept art they got back had a male which they thought looked cool. There wouldn't be a male Sorcerer if that didn't happen. I seem to recall a statement many months ago which said (without saying that sorcerers were playable) that they had the go-ahead for male sorcerers.

False memory?

[Taurth]

Personally I believe a male Sorcerer was planned when Greenskins were the only gender restricted class and thats why we heard so much about them getting permission from GW, but decided to only make Sorceresses when they decided to go for two male only classes for Chaos (god knows why, their reasoning was just plain wrong) to "balance" things out.

The paragraph below the one you quoted.

[RexT]

To those of you who think that female chosen look silly, how does this look?
http://www.images.monkeytaskforce.com/war/ChosenGirl.jpg

[Gemini]

To those of you who think that female chosen look silly, how does this look?
http://www.images.monkeytaskforce.com/war/ChosenGirl.jpg

That is from Father Jack, creator of SLM, and anyone who was here for the last round of debates has seen it linked more times then "over 9000" and "rick roll'd" combined. I do find it weird they couldn't make a cool looking female Chosen, but really the linked picture looks nothing like a Chosen in WAR at all, and I do think it looks rather silly. I love Father Jack's work, and I will no doubt be going into serious SLM withdrawl while he takes his leave of absence, but that does not scream Chosen at me at all. If Father Jack himself had not proclaimed it as a Chosen, I woulda guessed it was supposed to be a Marauder or some other chaosy thing.

In fact, now that I think about it, if the waist wasn't so small and there was a bit less armor, I would say that would be a good female Marauder. Espically since we now know there is a claw mutation not unlike what is depicted in that picture.

[Ralzar]

Wasn't it also about the actual models, also?

Dark Elf Sorcerors will probably use the "generic Dark Elf Male model", used by ALL Dark Elf males in the game. While Chosen and Marauders will NOT be using "generic Human Male model" because of size and mutations.

Yeah, that's one that was also mentioned. but the Devs really should have given that as an official explenation. Since it actually makes some sense.

The obvious solution to a part of the problem though, is just to make the Chosens face allways covered and make him gender neutral like the greenskins. That's actually part of the greatness of Warhammers Chaos Warriors; that you have NO IDEA what's under that armour. Is it a perfectly normal man? A mutated monstrosity no longer recognizable as a human? Or perhaps... *ghasp* a woman?!

That wouldn't take much extra work, fit the lore and make allmost everyone happy (because there's allways someone, somewhere that's still unhappy :P)

[Kharnan]

There is a difference between male Sorcerer (who looks cool to me^^) and female Chosen.

First, Mythic is not creating careers lore-wise but rather iconic-wise. That's why decision to made Chosen, Marauder and Greenskins male-only was made. Same goes with Sorcerer- it's a Dark Elf spellcaster, the fact it's male doesn't change much the whole look of this career, while for example, male Witch Elves will be something very not-warhammery.
Same goes with Chosen/Marauder- art may be nice, but imo female Chosen doesn't suit the theme along with Valkiria type of girl.
Greenskins are male only in lore and typical example of an Orc is a male- Warhammer is not a game with sad looking Orc moms who give you quest to find her son, and you find his remnants after he was eaten by aligators*. In WAR, Orcs eat aligators.

Second, it's easier to implement male-only career simply because more players are males. Half of the ingame females are RL males anyway. Lesser part of playerbase is driven away from career because of it being male rather than female.

We have one female-only class and imo that's enough.

I think that such decisions shouldn't be even discussed, it similar to support class whinning about lack of DPS or ranged DPS about low HP and armour - it just doesn't have any sense from devs point of view- they made male Sorc and male-only Chosen/Marauders/Greenskins and that's it. You deal with it or not, they won't change it.

You want to spent some time on creative discussion, talk about Dwarf mount- now that's something that can be changed (I like it btw, I like it alot:)) if majority of Dwarves hate it.

* theres an early quest like that in The Other Game.

[Gorn]

There is a difference between male Sorcerer (who looks cool to me^^) and female Chosen.

First, Mythic is not creating careers lore-wise but rather iconic-wise. That's why decision to made Chosen, Marauder and Greenskins male-only was made. Same goes with Sorcerer- it's a Dark Elf spellcaster, the fact it's male doesn't change much the whole look of this career, while for example, male Witch Elves will be something very not-warhammery.
Same goes with Chosen/Marauder- art may be nice, but imo female Chosen doesn't suit the theme along with Valkiria type of girl.
Greenskins are male only in lore and typical example of an Orc is a male- Warhammer is not a game with sad looking Orc moms who give you quest to find her son, and you find his remnants after he was eaten by aligators*. In WAR, Orcs eat aligators.

Second, it's easier to implement male-only career simply because more players are males. Half of the ingame females are RL males anyway. Lesser part of playerbase is driven away from career because of it being male rather than female.

We have one female-only class and imo that's enough.

I think that such decisions shouldn't be even discussed, it similar to support class whinning about lack of DPS or ranged DPS about low HP and armour - it just doesn't have any sense from devs point of view- they made male Sorc and male-only Chosen/Marauders/Greenskins and that's it. You deal with it or not, they won't change it.

You want to spent some time on creative discussion, talk about Dwarf mount- now that's something that can be changed (I like it btw, I like it alot:)) if majority of Dwarves hate it.

* theres an early quest like that in The Other Game.

They changed the game from "we want senarios to be the main source of victory points, we do not intend to have keeps, because that was for DAoC", to "open rvr is back in, we are adding keeps, forts, and putting much more focus in open world". From tactics and morale, to masteries, tactics and morale. All of which was not planned at the begining, in fact they said some of it would not be included. They also pushed the game back 3 months to work on it, and all because people said they wanted it. adding a few more renders in female form is nothing compared to that huge change.

[Apocryphus]

I can't believe you people are actually arguing about this. This entire subject has been blown out of proportion since they first announced gender specific classes.

"OH GOD! MYTHIC IS BEING SEXIST!"
"OH NOES! I CAN'T PLAY A WOMAN WITH PLATEMAIL!"

What in the hell are you people ing about? I've read plenty of Dark Elf books that contained male sorcerers, and even if I hadn't, it still wouldn't bother me because the notion that it matters in the slightest is absolutely ridiculous. I've played female and male characters over the years, and the fact that my toon does or does not have a virtual vagina has never made a lick of difference. IT'S OBJECT BASED PROGRAMMING! IT HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON THE OPINIONS AND ETHICAL IDEOLOGIES OF THE DEVELOPERS REGARDING WOMEN! THE ENTIRE MECHANIC IS PURELY AESTHETIC! It's not as though a male sorcerer's abilities list will differ from a female sorcerer's abilities list. I don't understand what is so bloody difficult to swallow. It won't affect gameplay or storyline. This thread and entire line of debate has not only been discussed to death, but it has detracted from discussions that actually provide something worth speculating over, such as game mechanics, plot development, or character progression, not whether or not my virtual persona has a 1 or a 0.

[Gorn]

I can't believe you people are actually arguing about this. This entire subject has been blown out of proportion since they first announced gender specific classes.

"OH GOD! MYTHIC IS BEING SEXIST!"
"OH NOES! I CAN'T PLAY A WOMAN WITH PLATEMAIL!"

What in the hell are you people ing about? I've read plenty of Dark Elf books that contained male sorcerers, and even if I hadn't, it still wouldn't bother me because the notion that it matters in the slightest is absolutely ridiculous. I've played female and male characters over the years, and the fact that my toon does or does not have a virtual vagina has never made a lick of difference. IT'S OBJECT BASED PROGRAMMING! IT HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON THE OPINIONS AND ETHICAL IDEOLOGIES OF THE DEVELOPERS REGARDING WOMEN! THE ENTIRE MECHANIC IS PURELY AESTHETIC! It's not as though a male sorcerer's abilities list will differ from a female sorcerer's abilities list. I don't understand what is so bloody difficult to swallow. It won't affect gameplay or storyline. This thread and entire line of debate has not only been discussed to death, but it has detracted from discussions that actually provide something worth speculating over, such as game mechanics, plot development, or character progression, not whether or not my virtual persona has a 1 or a 0.

While I agree that ethics and sexism have nothing to do with it. What something looks like does matter. They could use Atari grade graphics to represent the characters and they would have the exact same mechanics.

My entire interest in the subject is the fact I think they would look cool. That's it. The only reasons I see to not make them female are 1. GW won't let them, which isn't true since there's no reason, unlike the Witch Elf for which there is a reason. 2. They don't want to add more work on top of everything else they are doing. 2. Makes perfect sense, and is a completely valid reason I wouldn't argue with, but I would say after everything else is done it'd be nice for them to go back and do it.

Hardly game shattering either way. Just to make a joke cause I can't resist..Why are you here wasting time talking about this when there are better things to discuss? ;)

[kharnage]

Like I said in another post, I have no prob with Male Sorcs because I've been around Warhammer long enough to where I'm used to them. I know the latest editions don't have male sorcerers but I still play with them (and Sorcereesses too - the models rock!). I know sticklers and people relatively new to WH may have a prob with them being in the game but I don't see what the big deal is. I would have been happy either way.

As for the whole female chosen/marauder argument, I don't see how they relate to one another. I agree that Chaos is the most welcoming out of all the factions (Skin color, sex, etc). However, if they couldn't make the models cool enough or didn't think they fit, I think it's for the best they left them out. While female chosen/marauder certainly exist out there in the waste, they don't play a big part in the WH Mythos. Leaving them out is no big deal. Obviously some people DO feel strongly about the issue, so keep posting, but in the end I think the game is better for it.

[Baron Khaine]

You know what, if they made female Marauders look like this (http://fr.games-workshop.com/communaute/golden_demon/palmares.asp?annee=2007&pays=france&cat_id=8&place=1) i'd be happy for them to be in game.

[Gemini]

Yeah, I'd love to play the first AO rated game and not be able to find the game in stores anywhere all because we had to have female Marauders.

Okay, seriously though, with some clothes those wouldn't be half-bad.

[Xilbalba]

I can't believe you people are actually arguing about this. This entire subject has been blown out of proportion since they first announced gender specific classes.

"OH GOD! MYTHIC IS BEING SEXIST!"
"OH NOES! I CAN'T PLAY A WOMAN WITH PLATEMAIL!"

What in the hell are you people ing about? I've read plenty of Dark Elf books that contained male sorcerers, and even if I hadn't, it still wouldn't bother me because the notion that it matters in the slightest is absolutely ridiculous. I've played female and male characters over the years, and the fact that my toon does or does not have a virtual vagina has never made a lick of difference. IT'S OBJECT BASED PROGRAMMING! IT HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON THE OPINIONS AND ETHICAL IDEOLOGIES OF THE DEVELOPERS REGARDING WOMEN! THE ENTIRE MECHANIC IS PURELY AESTHETIC! It's not as though a male sorcerer's abilities list will differ from a female sorcerer's abilities list. I don't understand what is so bloody difficult to swallow. It won't affect gameplay or storyline. This thread and entire line of debate has not only been discussed to death, but it has detracted from discussions that actually provide something worth speculating over, such as game mechanics, plot development, or character progression, not whether or not my virtual persona has a 1 or a 0.

Lol I did it just to see who would respond with a post like this. If anything the responses have been entertaining to read. It's like half a year till the game comes out we need something to occupy our imaginations till then. Like you yourself and Gorn so elequently said, "Why are you here wasting time talking about this when there are better things to discuss?" :p

[Apocryphus]

While I agree that ethics and sexism have nothing to do with it. What something looks like does matter. They could use Atari grade graphics to represent the characters and they would have the exact same mechanics.

My entire interest in the subject is the fact I think they would look cool. That's it. The only reasons I see to not make them female are 1. GW won't let them, which isn't true since there's no reason, unlike the Witch Elf for which there is a reason. 2. They don't want to add more work on top of everything else they are doing. 2. Makes perfect sense, and is a completely valid reason I wouldn't argue with, but I would say after everything else is done it'd be nice for them to go back and do it.

Hardly game shattering either way. Just to make a joke cause I can't resist..Why are you here wasting time talking about this when there are better things to discuss? ;)

Because it gave me the chance to use bad puns and innuendo.

Here.
"the fact that my toon does or does not have a virtual vagina has never made a lick of difference. "

...and here.
"whether or not my virtual persona has a 1 or a 0."

Plus, when you work security at a retirement home, there is precious little that keeps the mind occupied. So, Warhammer and racing Rascals keep my attention. Honestly, man, how often can you reference binary and sex in the same sentence? You gotta jump on these opportunities when they present themselves.

Also, that anyone ever cared about gender resatrictions on classes really seems pretty ridiculous to me, as does the fact that this thread had reached multiple pages by the time I saw it, so I guess I couldn't resist posting to voice my opinion on how worthless this thread is. Call me a hypocrite, but the topic of this thread is still kinda dumb.

[Boulvae]

Well actually Chosen females can't be done proper justice, sides all that hulking clads of plate would pretty much hide the whole body, with only the helmet being taken off to show a steroid induced female face instead of a guy face, yeah I can see that doing wonders.

Maurader...well the woman would have to be equally big and muscular, and thats not good looking. actually goofy looking in a bad way, and makes them look like pretty boys.

ORCS AND GOBLINS are AESEXUAL, the "masculinity" which doesn't exist for Orcs and Goblins, is because those are perfect for the scrapping, smashing, thumping, chopping, bashing, and Waaagh!!!'in in all Greenskin conprehencible ways. NOT a pair of feeding organs on their chest, which wouldn't serve any purpose because they get all they need from snotlings and squigs that those feeding organs would provide anyways. They survive axes to the face, they regrow arms being chopped off, they'd slaughter eachother and be loving it. What part in that entire thing does that come off as "feminine".

Now the way I see it, the Male Sorceress (trust me thats how he's called right now) concept was not actually planned, and apparently it actually looked cool and warhammery aswell as Dark Elfen.

So the accidental Concept art actually DID do the justice for an opposite sex Sorceress (plus GW approved Male Sorceress's) and gave it the Dark Elf feel it'd have to achieve while having that dark and gritty feel of Warhammer.

Sometimes when the Lore (in ANY edition) from Warhammer says A-Okay on both sex for a race career (excluding greenskins, they will forever be aesexual because the female versions of Warhammer are ugly and basiclly a 'male' with breasts) it all falls down to IS it able to be done justice?

THATS why we should just drop this whole thing, and let that abandoned barn with the grave for every one of it's former animals ALONE (especially the horses).

[Kharnan]

They changed the game from "we want senarios to be the main source of victory points, we do not intend to have keeps, because that was for DAoC", to "open rvr is back in, we are adding keeps, forts, and putting much more focus in open world". From tactics and morale, to masteries, tactics and morale. All of which was not planned at the begining, in fact they said some of it would not be included. They also pushed the game back 3 months to work on it, and all because people said they wanted it. adding a few more renders in female form is nothing compared to that huge change.

Keep or not to Keep have nothing to do with Warhammer lore or whole ida of iconic look (which I hope we'll see in wider aspect in game aswell as a lack of colourful armour and things like that).

[Gorn]

Well actually Chosen females can't be done proper justice, sides all that hulking clads of plate would pretty much hide the whole body, with only the helmet being taken off to show a steroid induced female face instead of a guy face, yeah I can see that doing wonders.

Maurader...well the woman would have to be equally big and muscular, and thats not good looking. actually goofy looking in a bad way, and makes them look like pretty boys.

ORCS AND GOBLINS are AESEXUAL, the "masculinity" which doesn't exist for Orcs and Goblins, is because those are perfect for the scrapping, smashing, thumping, chopping, bashing, and Waaagh!!!'in in all Greenskin conprehencible ways. NOT a pair of feeding organs on their chest, which wouldn't serve any purpose because they get all they need from snotlings and squigs that those feeding organs would provide anyways. They survive axes to the face, they regrow arms being chopped off, they'd slaughter eachother and be loving it. What part in that entire thing does that come off as "feminine".

Now the way I see it, the Male Sorceress (trust me thats how he's called right now) concept was not actually planned, and apparently it actually looked cool and warhammery aswell as Dark Elfen.

So the accidental Concept art actually DID do the justice for an opposite sex Sorceress (plus GW approved Male Sorceress's) and gave it the Dark Elf feel it'd have to achieve while having that dark and gritty feel of Warhammer.

Sometimes when the Lore (in ANY edition) from Warhammer says A-Okay on both sex for a race career (excluding greenskins, they will forever be aesexual because the female versions of Warhammer are ugly and basiclly a 'male' with breasts) it all falls down to IS it able to be done justice?

THATS why we should just drop this whole thing, and let that abandoned barn with the grave for every one of it's former animals ALONE (especially the horses).

Why does a female chosen or maruader have to to be exactly as big as the male version? The male chosen doesn't have to bigger bigger than every single humanoid male in the game to be a chosen, they just have to be bigger than a normal man. A female chosen therefore only need to be bigger than a normal female. The maruader the same. I frankly don't care if they are ugly, they have big mutations, of course they are ugly. I can't really choose to play a dashing young handsome male one either either that's not going to stop me from playing one.

I think they can do it justice, I've seen the drawing the art team has done. If they want to go to the trouble it would take to do it that's fine. If may well be hard to do and make it look cool. Fine by me.



Keep or not to Keep have nothing to do with Warhammer lore or whole ida of iconic look (which I hope we'll see in wider aspect in game aswell as a lack of colourful armour and things like that).

Females Dwarfs if those who seem to be in the know about such things are correct are not iconic, they exsist, they can fight, but they are hardly part of the main fighting force. They almost never fight, is the term I heard. There are female dwarfs you can play.


I'm not going to be upset either way. I just say it is possible to do. They could do it. I don't think I've even said they should do it. I've said I'd like it.

Also, some people posting in here need to play Witch Elves, or Choppas. Your ease at flying into a rage will ensure some good damage output. I hardly think it's that important either way to get upset about.

[kharnage]

Lol I did it just to see who would respond with a post like this. If anything the responses have been entertaining to read. It's like half a year till the game comes out we need something to occupy our imaginations till then. Like you yourself and Gorn so elequently said, "Why are you here wasting time talking about this when there are better things to discuss?" :p

I think most of these threads are created as more of a joke than anything else.

Why are there no female orcs (I don't think I've seen why aren't there any male orcs)
Can my character be any color
Why no male WE
Why no female Chosen/Marauder
And I know I've probably missed a few.
The answers to these questions are pretty easy to find, so I think each new thread created on the subject is mostly a joke. (Although every once in a while I'll jump in anyway! There could be newbies in the area)

[Boulvae]

Well Gorn, they have to be because the ENERGIES OF CHAOS are flowing through their veins warping them, making them as big if not BIGGER then the men or shorter at times but they are generally in the same size range.

Plus all that DAEMON ARMOUR that they'll wear will hide away their very sex AND eventually their bodies will turn to dust then their armour will be their body anyways so technically they become sexless hunks of metal eventually.

[Disciple]

i would have to disagree with the OP.

the current state holds true to the IP. which, i think, should be upheald.

also lets not forget that GW has final word on all things. so if there arent any female chosen or marauders, its because GW says so...or at least agrees with it.

[Taurth]

You know what, if they made female Marauders look like this (http://fr.games-workshop.com/communaute/golden_demon/palmares.asp?annee=2007&pays=france&cat_id=8&place=1) i'd be happy for them to be in game.I agree.

A female Marauder doesn't have to be super bulky like the male model. They should be bigger than Empire females ofcourse, but I think a taler slightly more toned female would look pretty good in Marauder gear.

EDIT:
the current state holds true to the IP. which, i think, should be upheald.
Lul sorry wut? :?

[Boulvae]

You don't get it, the chaos energies and gifts of Tzeentch, Khorne, and Nurgle would NOT make them "slightly" taller and more toned, they'd make them bulking plus a 'little'
warped and twisted too - but not slender and well defined, thats SLAANESH.

AND on that note that wouldn't be a female marauder of Tzeentch, that'd be more of a Daemonette of Slaanesh OR a Slaaneshi marauder.

[Gorn]

Well Gorn, they have to be because the ENERGIES OF CHAOS are flowing through their veins warping them, making them as big if not BIGGER then the men or shorter at times but they are generally in the same size range.

Plus all that DAEMON ARMOUR that they'll wear will hide away their very sex AND eventually their bodies will turn to dust then their armour will be their body anyways so technically they become sexless hunks of metal eventually.

My response depends on exactly what your saying there. If the chaos energy simply makes a chosen bigger, then a man is bigger than a woman to start with, he'll still be bigger than her, but she will be bigger than any normal female. They can be bigger than a normal man, but not as big as a male chosen and still look female, just a big female.

If the chaos energy is chaotic is what your saying so it doesn't follow normal methods and it could make the woman bigger than the man because it doesn't matter how things normally go, then yes, but being chaotic it could make her look like a supermodel yet able to fling horses around one handed, also, it could cause her to explode, or turn into a chicken if she wanders into a lower zone.

The armor can still allow enough to see what it is by the way the armor itself is designed, and you can take the helmet off to see. If I play an Empire person they eventually will die, decay, and turn to dust and be neither as well, doesn't mean I don't want to play them in the mean time.

[Taurth]

You don't get it, the chaos energies and gifts of Tzeentch, Khorne, and Nurgle would NOT make them "slightly" taller and more toned, they'd make them bulking plus a 'little'
warped and twisted too - but not slender and well defined, thats SLAANESH.

AND on that note that wouldn't be a female marauder of Tzeentch, that'd be more of a Daemonette of Slaanesh OR a Slaaneshi marauder.By that logic, then this (http://www.coolminiornot.com/163907) Magus shouldn't be, as Chaos energies would have warped him into some huge hulking beast.

And the bold part, its just generalizing. Chaos doesn't have boundaries and can be anything, saying anything slim = Slaaneshi is like saying a Chosen is blatently a warrior of Khorne, because he's so big.

I don't think you get it.

[Diminish]

Actually there are male sorcerers in the lore, i'm not sure exactly were to find it, i read it from someone elses post a while back, said that male sorcerers were outcasts,but did exist. and malekith uses dark energy anyways so...

[WarMachine]

Isn't a chosen encased in armor he can't remove? What does it matter that you can't have a female figure inside of it which you will never see anyway?
They still can remove their helm, atleast for the time that there bodies still exist.
To those of you who think that female chosen look silly, how does this look?
http://www.images.monkeytaskforce.com/war/ChosenGirl.jpg
It does look silly for a female chosen, its missing the huge intimidation factor of the chosen.

Why does a female chosen or maruader have to to be exactly as big as the male version? The male chosen doesn't have to bigger bigger than every single humanoid male in the game to be a chosen, they just have to be bigger than a normal man. A female chosen therefore only need to be bigger than a normal female.

Why? Its part of the prosceses that makes a chosen, they are huge for a reson, intimidation. They might stand close to 7 feet tall, they are huge, notice their unarmored heads look slightly small compared to their bodies. Now if you have an armored smaller female Chosen in full armor on the the battle field, she would look just like your standered chaos warrior, an alot of the intimidating sight of a Chosen is then lost.

The only way I can see a Chosen having a womanly form, is if they worship Slaanesh or Tzeentch, one would need to gain pleasure through desire (of the womanly form), or find atractivness empowering. Now in both cases neather would find their vices on the battle field, and their talents would be better used behind the lines, And still then, Tzeentch's servent would be out done by the deamon armor, as she wouldn't be able to take it off to suduce men.

I 100% agree with Taurth, if they do Male Sorc's, they should have female Chosen and Marauders. BUT, I would like to see them implemented correctly, they are not super models, and should not be portrayed as such. Norscains live like a 3rd world tribes compared to the Empire and elves, and their appearance should reflect this. And a female chosen should have the same warping effects that a male recieves, as no gender parts are needed by Chosen, do you really think they can take their armor off to take a leak? The become immortal mortal units, they will live forever or untill killed, their body will die, but their soul will fight on, trapped in the armor.

[Gemini]

Actually there are male sorcerers in the lore, i'm not sure exactly were to find it, i read it from someone elses post a while back, said that male sorcerers were outcasts,but did exist. and malekith uses dark energy anyways so...

Uhhh, wrong thread dude, we're not discussing Dark Elf Sorcorers, we're discussion Chaos Chosen and Marauders.

[Gorn]

They still can remove their helm, atleast for the time that there bodies still exist.

It does look silly for a female chosen, its missing the huge intimidation factor of the chosen.



Why? Its part of the prosceses that makes a chosen, they are huge for a reson, intimidation. They might stand close to 7 feet tall, they are huge, notice their unarmored heads look slightly small compared to their bodies. Now if you have an armored smaller female Chosen in full armor on the the battle field, she would look just like your standered chaos warrior, an alot of the intimidating sight of a Chosen is then lost.

The only way I can see a Chosen having a womanly form, is if they worship Slaanesh or Tzeentch, one would need to gain pleasure through desire (of the womanly form), or find atractivness empowering. Now in both cases neather would find their vices on the battle field, and their talents would be better used behind the lines, And still then, Tzeentch's servent would be out done by the deamon armor, as she wouldn't be able to take it off to suduce men.

I 100% agree with Taurth, if they do Male Sorc's, they should have female Chosen and Marauders. BUT, I would like to see them implemented correctly, they are not super models, and should not be portrayed as such. Norscains live like a 3rd world tribes compared to the Empire and elves, and their appearance should reflect this. And a female chosen should have the same warping effects that a male recieves, as no gender parts are needed by Chosen, do you really think they can take their armor off to take a leak? The become immortal mortal units, they will live forever or untill killed, their body will die, but their soul will fight on, trapped in the armor.

Well since the Chaos everyone is following is Tzeentch then it's ok right? Tzeentch is about trickery isn't he? A woman's skill is not in her looks, the sheer fact that she doesn't look as imposing is the trick.

"That chosen is weaker, they are not nearly as big as the others." Then they find out that while sure being 6 ft, 200 lbs of muscle that isn't bulky (and by the way bulk does not equal strength there are people not nearly as bulky as a body builder that are way,way stronger than a body builder is.) is not nearly as impressive as an 8 ft tall 400 pound bulky mass of muscle in armor, that doesn't mean they are easier to kill and may well be stronger than the big one.

Tzeentch is about trickery, attack the smaller one cause it looks weaker if you want.

[Oxygen.]

No females

...

so what? Why does that remotely matter?

[Gorn]

No females

...

so what? Why does that remotely matter?

It doesn't. Just like it doesn't matter if I get ice cream, but I still like to have ice cream, and still talk about having ice cream. In fact the entire game doesn't matter, as if it was canceled today it wouldn't effect anything truly important, other than people want to play it and wouldn't get to. Nothing bad would really happen though.

It doesn't matter if it happens or not, and it doesn't matter if people talk about it or not. I'm simply choosing to talk about it anyway.

[WarMachine]

Well since the Chaos everyone is following is Tzeentch then it's ok right? Tzeentch is about trickery isn't he? A woman's skill is not in her looks, the sheer fact that she doesn't look as imposing is the trick.

"That chosen is weaker, they are not nearly as big as the others." Then they find out that while sure being 6 ft, 200 lbs of muscle that isn't bulky (and by the way bulk does not equal strength there are people not nearly as bulky as a body builder that are way,way stronger than a body builder is.) is not nearly as impressive as an 8 ft tall 400 pound bulky mass of muscle in armor, that doesn't mean they are easier to kill and may well be stronger than the big one.

Tzeentch is about trickery, attack the smaller one cause it looks weaker if you want.
Your WAY off base. Tzeentch has other apects as well, trrickery is just one of many. But, still, the Chaos Gods like people to fear their Chosen, and thats what Chosen do best. Chosen are all about the brute force of that god, the Chosen is the fist that embodies that god's fighting prowest. A Chosen is a show of hands, just the mear sight of one on the battle field can drop the moral of the rank and file.

Tricking the inital 5 warriors is no comparision to the sheer intimadation across the battle field the sight of a chosen chould inspire before the fight has even begain.

Now into the anomomy of a chosen.... Their body is reshaped in the image of chaos, just be cause you stab one doesn't mean they'll bleed, a tentical can rip from the hole, mice could bleed out, or chaos energies may flood out, that is the way of chaos. That being said, choas no longer has need of the womanly form, breast and genitalia are for child bearing, a Chosen will not have offspring, and thus usless on the battle field, home to the chosen.

[Boulvae]

Alright let me make myself more clear, Taurth.

Firstly the Chaos DOES HAVE BOUNDARIES, however said boundaries is wholly dependent on the beliefs of the god's followers, their syche (don't know spelling), and the god's personnal tastes.

Tzeentch's physical boundaries is to be odd-ball, 4th demensional, and most of all completely random with usually bird like features, and eyes in their aswell with other aspects of him not neccesarily muscular but thats a result of chaos enrgie flowing through them not him. Colour wise purple, blue, and bright colours. Generally the Chaos energies would on an average scale cause them to grow in bulky size, twist and warp, become something wholly different and be just DIFFERENT. Tzeentchian warriors and greater have been known to carry strange fetishes like a clear jar of fire flies.

That link by the way, if you look hes not well defined and slender, did you see under his robe. Did you see that he's got a beak, and his hand on the satff is definantly almost fused to the staff. Did you notice that half of his body isn't even LEGS, but something else quite possibly ever flowing wind or energie of some sort to represent the constant flow of change? (Atleast to me it looks like energy, hand fused to staff.)

That other link had the Slaaneshi aspect (same type of hair which is what caused my doubts for what's under that particular champion figurines robe) ALL OVER IT, crab claws, creepy yet sinisterly beutifal, crab claws, and worm hair (the wromd aspect of Slaanesh). Which it is infact a Daemonette anyways.

All Khornate grow vicious blades, spikes, hornes, boney pretrusions becoming, dog like features, bull like features, and bulkier/muscular but to what degree is random. His colour is Red, Brass, Black. His Armour usually has his symbol plastered all over the place, followed by spikes, skull decals, dog decals, bull decals and almost all of it's brass trimmed. Their random stuff they carry around could be something they earned from a great foe, if they're not the crazy bloodlusting constant bezerkng types (able to hold themself together when not in battle which wthey will seek).

Nurglidites can take on any appearance that represents rot and decay, but bulky (not muscular bulky) ussually due to all that bloated appearances is from all the gas, and juices coming from the deseases that lurk within their flesh to the bones. His most prominant colour is sickly green, tarnished yellow, and tainted brown plus all the other colours of decay. The Daemon Armour that his follower bear are always tarnished, dirty, rusted, tainted, and seemingly aged or eroded for a long time. Some warriors and greater have been known to hold personal belongings of their past, that usually brings them happy memories or very sad memories.

Slaanesh mutations are generally reflectant upon gaining pleasure so any mutation that enhances the sense, makes you look beutifal yet horrifying, crustacean like (which is a little weird but hey, someones gotta have it why not him), worm like, and reptile/amphibion like. His colours is pink, black, white, and colours that always contrast with each other. Their Deamon armour sometimes exposes the most flesh but it either doesnt completely cover them or it does. Their Armour is "ringy", things that tempt you, very "abstract" patterns and designs, decadent, and is in it's own way beutifal yet also creepy. Their fetishes that they can be seen carrying (if they do) is something that either brings them great pleasure, or brings them great pain mentally or physically, or what they'll use to 'convert' others.

ALSO when I (only me, myself, and I - not you) say well defined and slender I do not count skinny, scrauny, for me it means having muscle tone that is well defined, yet the texture is "smooth" persay (think sexy smooth, or baby's bottom smooth).

Now then, reason because these particualr maurader woman would be muscular is because all that constant mutating would be the reason behind it, all creatures with energies of chaos flowing through them ALWAYS increase in mass regardless if it's caused directly by the gods or not (unless the change of their flesh is to something else entirely energie or massless or not physical like in the same sense as flesh then thats different). Their general appearance would be dependant on what caused the influence though.

THERE, i've made myself a little more clearer. So no Tzeentchian marauder woman would not be well defined and slender - they'd be muscular whether they started out that way or not because the chaos energies that constantly flow through THESE ONES in particular due to all that constant mutation and warping. Anyone whom goes through constant warping of chaos energy always increase in mass if they are not dawned Daemon Armour yet, eventually becoming a chaos spawn or a big chaos warrior.

EDIT: For goofyness sake, the DM said so.

And Mythic couldn't do them justice anyways, so this argument is for fun.

[Gemini]

And Mythic couldn't do them justice anyways, so this argument is for fun.


But with the interview with Eva Vix (I think it was them) a Mythic guy said they were taking a look at certain gender restricted classes. Perhaps the newest batch of EA artists had someone who thought they could do better, and indeed did. Or maybe some artist who was part of the original descicion decided to try and make a really good female Chosen or Marauder, if for no other reason than to show themselves they could, and after the delay was decided brought their sketches to the attention of the higher powers. Something had to cause them to look back at the resitrctions and think "Huh, maybe we can do it afterall", so maybe it was new art. Not to mention, with the second delay since they annouced the restriction, Mythic probably can spare a few artists' time to make a new in-game model for the female Marauder and/or Chosen. Then again, they would also have to do the armor, so maybe not.

Overall, I'd say it's a possibility, but I wouldn't count on it. However, as a personal opinion from someone who's only vaugely artistic talent comes in the form of photography, I'd say it would probably be a lot easier to make a good female Marauder than a female Chosen.

[Taurth]

That link by the way, if you look hes not well defined and slender, did you see under his robe. Did you see that he's got a beak, and his hand on the satff is definantly almost fused to the staff. Did you notice that half of his body isn't even LEGS, but something else quite possibly ever flowing wind or energie of some sort to represent the constant flow of change? (Atleast to me it looks like energy, hand fused to staff.)

Fair enough, I linked that model because in my opinion it looked cool, but heres (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/miniature-gallery/images/tzeentch-lord.gif) a Chaos Magus withought any odd mutations. Notice how the Chaos energy flowing through him hasn't caused him to increase to the size of a house.

ALSO when I (only me, myself, and I - not you) say well defined and slender I do not count skinny, scrauny, for me it means having muscle tone that is well defined, yet the texture is "smooth" persay (think sexy smooth, or baby's bottom smooth).

Now then, reason because these particualr maurader woman would be muscular is because all that constant mutating would be the reason behind it, all creatures with energies of chaos flowing through them ALWAYS increase in mass regardless if it's caused directly by the gods or not (unless the change of their flesh is to something else entirely energie or massless or not physical like in the same sense as flesh then thats different). Their general appearance would be dependant on what caused the influence though.

THERE, i've made myself a little more clearer. So no Tzeentchian marauder woman would not be well defined and slender - they'd be muscular whether they started out that way or not because the chaos energies that constantly flow through THESE ONES in particular due to all that constant mutation and warping. Anyone whom goes through constant warping of chaos energy always increase in mass if they are not dawned Daemon Armour yet, eventually becoming a chaos spawn or a big chaos warrior.

EDIT: For goofyness sake, the DM said so.

And Mythic couldn't do them justice anyways, so this argument is for fun.First of all, a Marauder would be toned and muscular because Norsca's are. Their environment causes them to be a lot taller, stronger and muscular than Empire folk; Norsca is a lot harsher place to live. I'm not proposing they be dainty little super models, I'm just saying they wouldn't have to be huge monstrosities.

Also, Chaos energy doesn't always make you increase in mass - it may, but then again it might make you shrink. Theres tons of examples that show Chaos energy doesn't exclusively make you increase in mass. Looks through a copy of Liber Tzeentch and see all the picture of spindly to average body size Chaos followers with odd mutations (showing they have Chaos energy running through them) that blatantly haven't increased in mass.

Just out of curiosity, where did you get this idea from that Chaos energy always makes you increase in mass anyway? I've never read or heard of that myself.

[WarMachine]

Just out of curiosity, where did you get this idea from that Chaos energy always makes you increase in mass anyway? I've never read or heard of that myself.
I think he may have his wires crossed in the energies that makes a chosen, and the powers that allows a marauder to mutate.

A marauder woman would likely look no different than a maruader woman not gifted (with of course the exceptions of the mutations). They resemble large/stalky weather skinned barbarian woman, not the lith and delicate women of the empire, or well defined slinder elves.

The growth of a Chosen is a completely different animal, the body is fused with a daemon (deamon armor) and warped by chaos permently (this is not a temp gift from the gods). As part of the gift a chosen becomes bigger to become intemidating.

[Ralzar]

Chosen and chaos warriors don't HAVE to be bulky. They're usually bulky because:

1: They're mostly norsemen, which are big barbarians. And the biggest and strongest of them are usually the ones to become chaos warriors.

2: Because big man-mountains in spikey armour look bad-. It's an artistic choice for the creators. They don't have to make all like that, but it just looks good.



Here's a couple of Tzeench Champions from "The Lost And The Damned" and "Liber Chaotica".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Berzerkir/Tzchamp2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Berzerkir/Tzchamp1.jpg

[WarMachine]

Chosen and chaos warriors don't HAVE to be bulky. They're usually bulky because:

1: They're mostly norsemen, which are big barbarians. And the biggest and strongest of them are usually the ones to become chaos warriors.

2: Because big man-mountains in spikey armour look bad-. It's an artistic choice for the creators. They don't have to make all like that, but it just looks good.

Here's a couple of Tzeench Champions from "The Lost And The Damned" and "Liber Chaotica".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Berzerkir/Tzchamp2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Berzerkir/Tzchamp1.jpg
Chaos warriors don't have to be big, neather do Champions, but Chosen need to be. Thats just how they are, its not like in the world of automobiles, where we can pack a wholup in to a compact (what would you be more worried to race agenst, a Prius or a Hemi Cuda?). You can read my early posts if you want to see why chosen are big. They lose the effect if you make them indistingusable from your typical chaos warrior.

As for the pics, the first is huge, compare the body at the bottom to the armored figure, and the second is a deamon prince, not really in the same catagory as the rest.

[Ralzar]

How can you tell a chosen apart from a chaos warrior or a champion? It's just levels of the same thing. Followers of the chaos gods on the way to damnation and/or immortality.

[Taurth]

How can you tell a chosen apart from a chaos warrior or a champion? It's just levels of the same thing. Followers of the chaos gods on the way to damnation and/or immortality.I have to agree with this to be honest. A Chosen is more or less another name for a Champion or aspiring Champion, and as such doesn't have to be bulky as theres many examples of them not being. Its true that they have their armour welded to them, but I think the idea of them turning all Chaosy underneath it (and by that I mean more Chaosy than simple mutations - like their body becoming goop which has to be housed in the armour) and needing the armour to hold them together, as originally said by Paul (I think) was just one of his rants to make them sound cooler.

[WarMachine]

How can you tell a chosen apart from a chaos warrior or a champion? It's just levels of the same thing. Followers of the chaos gods on the way to damnation and/or immortality.
They all follow the god to damnation, but there are different paths. A chaos warrior is just a Norscain in armor, a Champion can be of any ilk that has proven him self worthy of great blessings. A Chosen is a warrior cursed and blessed at the same time. They become completely a tool of their god with great gifts and no possible salvation. They suffer the same punishments of a champion, death or damnation as a spawn, but their role is different, Chosen are usually greater warriors than they are leaders, thus used to be the fist of their god. Most humanity is stripped a away to make them better killers, a Chosen's life is battlefield to battlefield, they don't get wrapped up in politics, only doing what gains them absolute favour to their god, though usually, the rewards are life eteranal (untill slayn) on the battlefield, or untill they are granted champion/deamonhood of some type. But pretty much in most aspects in lore, they can be considered champions. By lore, they are rare, massive, and extreamly intemidating.

[Ralzar]

I... don't think we've read the same lore.

I've never seen anything that has made any kind of clear seperation of warriors, chosen, knights and champions of chaos. It's just different levels of chaos warriors.
If I'm not mistaken, in the TT game, being chosen is just an upgrade of your chaos knights, for example.
Mythic just used the name "Chosen" because "Chaos Warrior" or "Chaos knight" is a bit generic and "Chaos Champion" is a bit too grand.

[Petit-Trot]

I remember Paul mentioning they were worried about having to deal with "mutated nipple" parts. I believe this is the only reason there are no female marauders.

[WarMachine]

I... don't think we've read the same lore.

I've never seen anything that has made any kind of clear seperation of warriors, chosen, knights and champions of chaos. It's just different levels of chaos warriors.
If I'm not mistaken, in the TT game, being chosen is just an upgrade of your chaos knights, for example.
Mythic just used the name "Chosen" because "Chaos Warrior" or "Chaos knight" is a bit generic and "Chaos Champion" is a bit too grand.
Mythic chose Chosen because Chaos Warriors have nothing special about them. And a Chaos Knight is a mounted Chaos warrior, they are just esentually armored Norscains. A Champion is in a bit of a different league, but its more of a title than a full career.

There is plenty of lore covering the Chosen, most is scattered here and there. In TT yes, they are symular to Chaos Warriors/Knights, as they use the same TT model for easy army shifting. They are a little more than just up grades, currently, I'm not up on the TT rules, but it could be just an up grade now. But their lore is way more powerful than the TT rules allow. They are basicly mini chaos god avatars, they function on the basic raw emotions of their god, and have been stripped of most memories and humanity. They don't fight for a champion, only for their god, and would not even have a second thought about slaughtering their champion if they beleived their god so willed it. They are the few that are 100% loyal to their gods, no matter what. Part of their transformation into a Chosen is them being fused to their Deamon armor, and them being increased in size. The biggest porpuse of a chosen on a battlefield is to strike fear into the hearts of that gods enemies. Deamons are temperary, Chosen are forever. They are also to show the brute force of that god. Though the appearance of Chosen differ from god to god, the WAR chosen look more like chosen of Khorne with blue armor, as Tzeentch's chosen usually have many mutations.

As for Paul's take on Chosen, meh... Who knows whats under a chosen's armor, his body has been warpped by chaos more then any other troop. Their is still a body under that armor, as lore tell of some chosen's bodies being reduced to dust just because they are so old.

[Taurth]

Can't say I've read or heard of anything like you're describe WarMachine. :P

I would have thought though, that since a Champion is a higher rank than a Chosen, they'd show more evidence of being what you describe a Chosen as, but to a higher extent since they're past that stage. So since you describe all Chosen's as increasing in size, surely all Champions would be huge aswell (but from pictures, they aren't). I would have also thought that since a Chosen is basically a mini avatar of their god as you say, that a Daemon Prince (which personally I'd call more of an avatar of their god rather than a Chosen) would have to show evidence of looking like a Chosen, since surely he'd have to have gone through that stage aswell.

Personally I've only ever read of Chaos warriors being like what Ralzer described. They basically start of as a normal person, could be Norscan or from elsewhere, but most Northern Chaos followers typically go on to be a Marauder and then move up in favor with their god, and up in status with their warband. When they become a Champion they've basically gone to the Chaos wastes and proven themselves to their Patron God, and gathered a huge warband. Eventually they may become a Daemon Prince. Thats basically how Liber Chaotica explains a Chaos followers rise to power and it doesn't make any mention of a Chosen. Personally I'd assume a Chosen is basically the same as a Champion; however Mythic used the name because as Ralzer said, Chaos Warrior (basically what the Chosen is in WAR, since we wont be playing some uber warrior whose almost Champion; they're more like elite troops - which is what a Chosen actually is in the TT, and upgrade of a Chaos Warrior) seem a bit generic.

[WarMachine]

Champions come from all line of chaos, sorcerers, tribesmen, converted champions. Not all champions, or many for that matter many have under gone the change that a Chosen goes through. Though, Deamon Prince or Deamon is usually the next step for a chosen. Though lore is scattered, mythic's description is pretty good. They are rare in lore, so thats why most people claim the a female chosen would be even more rare, but it is possible, I'm not aurgeing that point, but they arn't going to be slender and small warriors with a female form.

I'm going completely off memory, and have been play WarHammer an WH40K games sence '89. But I stumbled across this topic (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21893) a few minutes ago, they are discussing Chosen mutations, and someone may have a few good sources. The Chosen where always my favorite troop, and I read every possible thing I could, so I might be over hyping them as well, but the basic fact is they are big and powerful.

[Taurth]

Well we're going a bit off-topic here, but still the lore I've read describes things just the way Ralzer described it, and thats from Liber Chaotica.How can you tell a chosen apart from a chaos warrior or a champion? It's just levels of the same thing. Followers of the chaos gods on the way to damnation and/or immortality. It doesn't really differentiate between the different "ranks" of Chaos followers, they're all more or less progressing on their way to Daemonhood in different stages, as opposed to having strict subcategories which they progress through such as Marauder > Chaos Warrior > Champion > Daemon Prince.

Nevertheless, if what you say it true it doesn't effect the Marauder anyway.

[WarMachine]

Well we're going a bit off-topic here, but still the lore I've read describes things just the way Ralzer described it, and thats from Liber Chaotica. It doesn't really differentiate between the different "ranks" of Chaos followers, they're all more or less progressing on their way to Daemonhood in different stages, as opposed to having strict subcategories which they progress through such as Marauder > Chaos Warrior > Champion > Daemon Prince.
Liber Chaotica is a great resource, but it is lacking. Though it was ment to lack, its written from the knowlage of what one man can find out about chaos, kinda like a basic chaos rule book. Just to fully put the info of one chaos god down on paper, the book for one god would be larger than Liber Chaotica Complete.


Nevertheless, if what you say it true it doesn't effect the Marauder anyway.
True, and I stated that all the way back at post #59 (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=560516&postcount=59). The process that makes a Chosen is not the same as the process that makes a maruader. And in fact I even agreed with you on the appearance of a female maruader.

And just a veiw on how the rules change for TT, there should be no chosen in an army of undevided, as chosen are picked by a single god to do their bidding.

[Taurth]

True, and I stated that all the way back at post #59 (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=560516&postcount=59). The process that makes a Chosen is not the same as the process that makes a maruader. And in fact I even agreed with you on the appearance of a female maruader.Yeah, thats the reason why I said that:
Nevertheless, if what you say it true it doesn't effect the Marauder anyway.

:mrgreen:

[Foofmonger]

Taruth just wants to play a mutated chick.

Thats his real motive :p

[Boulvae]

My wires are crossed alright, being warped by chaos can ruin your train of thought and make you spacey.

Of course I am taking it off of my knowledge of the chaos spawns, exposure to raw forms of chaos (i.e. warpstone), and because Marauders (of course when I say Mauraders as a whole I mean none norscan aswell because they're never really given a name except follower/cultling) in atleast this game (Norscan but still) undergoes constant exposure and temp. gifts which would make the end result (with someone whom can't handle it) become a chaos spawn.

I even forgot this, increasing in mass means you can have an extra tentical at the back of your head or something, so a Tzeentchian with stuff flinging about WOULD have increased in mass.

Of course I do hope, as comupence, that Tzeentch chosen get really weird, odd ball, cool, or other wise abstractly intimidating trophies (i.e. a jar of Fire Flies).

[Dastion]

While I dread the idea of seeing females running around with tentacles, and the fact that behind most of them are young boys with perverted minds (or older men with the same mindset) and having to hear the jokes... I still think that they should allow it, simply because it follows the rules set forth by Mythic themselves to make a "bend".

1) Is it a required "lore bend" for an MMO type game? 2) Does it outright break any lore? If the answers to the questions are yes and no respectively then they will make the "bend". As far as #1 goes, it's an MMO game. So having units that cannot be both male and female, let alone many on one faction and none on another, is unbalancing in a community aspect. People like having female characters running around, even if males are playing them. People like the options, the freedom to customize, to not look just like everyone else. And for #2, there are female mauraders and chosen in the IP and there is nothing but the fact that they are rare to go against them.

So what if a Chosen looks the same when they are incased in armor? The point is that the player should have the right to have that female voice when their character gets hit or uses an emote. Also, assuming helmets are toggleable (which I believe they said they would be) that makes a huge difference in the look of the character. Nevermind that no matter how big and bulky the chosen gets a female version will still likely look different. Anyhow, the "encased in armor" bit isn't likely to make it to the game..considering a major part of the game is upgrading equipment, a huge part of which is your armor.

[RavenCraven]

I'll pass personally.

I for one don't want to see female Chosen running around with weird looking chest-plates, or grotesque mutated women out of Total recall.

Regardless of the fact that there are going to be male sorceres, I just think having female Chosen/Marauders would be silly.

Yer, same here.

[DrainBamaged]

You guys go by the Warhammer Lore like its a bible or something... Me for one could care less whats male and whats female... But the reason I think they are letting sorcerers in is because the majority of the people that will play this game are male and majority of males want to play as males.

[Zzulu]

uh, if they can make the warrior female priest look good, there is no reason at all for them to not be able to make a fully armored female chosen look good as well.

I have no idea why you guys don't want to see them around.

They'd just have to make a sinister looking blend of the female KoTBS and Warrior Priest, and sprinkle it with some chaos flavour.

[Gemini]

uh, if they can make the warrior female priest look good, there is no reason at all for them to not be able to make a fully armored female chosen look good as well.

I have no idea why you guys don't want to see them around.

They'd just have to make a sinister looking blend of the female KoTBS and Warrior Priest, and sprinkle it with some chaos flavour.

I'd quite like to see female Chosen and Marauders, but what your saying isn't competely true. The Chosen (and Marauder) uses a special model that is diffrent from the normal Empire/Chaos model. A female WP will use the same model as all the other human females, but a female Chosen would not, it would require a new model.

Now, that being said, with the second delay to Q2, I see no reason why they couldn't spend some time to make it work, but I'm not Mythic.

[Warsaw]

You guys go by the Warhammer Lore like its a bible or something... Me for one could care less whats male and whats female... But the reason I think they are letting sorcerers in is because the majority of the people that will play this game are male and majority of males want to play as males.

You got to remember a huge reason people like warhammer is for it's lore. Thats why so many people follow the lore like its a bible. They want the game they love.

As for non female chaos classes. Could it be because of the look? Would mythic not want female marauders because then people expect to see 4 breasts or something... I'm not saying they couldnt just cover it up with clothing but could it have to do with the overall look of a female marauder.

Or it could be that it's not mythics fault at all or it's some behind the scenes problem. I dont know to much about females in the chaos lore but how present are females. Is it that females arn't present enough to add them into WAR because then the amount of females being played would be un truthful to the lore. But then you could argue this with what they are doing with DE. They could justify their actions with DE by saying that they have the male sorcerer because more men would play that then a female chosen or female marauder. This comes down to something else. How much different would a female chosen even look. With all the armor I doubt anyone could tell and when you see a bad in armor like that I dont think your enemies would be worried if its a male or female just thats it a 7feet tall armoured tank walking towards them with a 4 foot long sword. eep!

[Zzulu]

I don't get the argument of "but it's so much armor they'd look the same". Wouldn't that argument hold true against the blackguard as well then?

Obviously a female would have the armor more aesthetically suited for her, like in every other MMO ever. I'm not talking 'plate bikinis', but simply a less bulkier form. Call it unrealistic or whatever you want, but it's prevalent and working in other MMO's, and it can't possibly be that hard to implement in WAR. It just feels cheap that they are skipping it for no apparent reason, you know?


As for mauraders I have no idea what the arguments could be. Just make a tall pasty viking woman who can mutate her arm into a crab claw, just like the male can. What's so wrong about that?

[Necrotoxin]

Why dose it matter so much what gender you play. I could careless of what gender I play as long as they look cool.

[Boulvae]

In all honesty, you'd never tell the difference except that the female Choasen would be slightly thinner but still just as bulky.

Mythic stated that they couldn't do the females for Mauraders and Chosen justice so you can't play as one. It may sound like a horrible excuse to some, but quite frankly why spend wasteful time trying to do them the proper justice (which from what they say would be far too long) when you can put that time better spent on other parts of the game.

[Bluucandi]

I appreciate the OP's stance on this issue.

I keep going on like a broken record but for a good reason. I play DAoC, I KNOW Mythic is capable of making realistic female models that wear full plate armor. For instance, the paladin. I have played one myself. It's not a difficult model to create without having feminine features. So... the excuse they have given regarding female marauders and chosen having an acceptable design is weak.

I get the feeling they're interested in pleasing that fan base that prefers to see female melee classes in chain mail bikinis and only that. I myself do not have qualms about playing, for instance, the Witch Elves but I do respect and sympathize with the players who'd like to play female melee classes that wear more "realistic armor" or "discreet armor". Yes, I do speak for all the female players who'd like to role Destruction melee classes in that we'd like more choices in what we can role that have female genders. I was honestly disapointed and dismayed when I first heard that not only did Mythic exclude Chosen but Marauders also from having female models.

I asked the question "Does Mythic really understand what it's female fanbase desires?" "Do they realise that not all of us want pretty litttle elf like models to toy with?" Alot of us females have rolled nonpretty characters: trolls, undead, orcs, valkyns, inconnu, and kobolds (to name a few). I've rolled a toon of every one I listed. We really do not appreciate the powers that be deciding and limiting what we can roll in a game. Just like our male counterparts - we'd like a variety of races and genders to play.

[Bluucandi]

Who said the devs are trying to be fair?

I understand your point perfectly, I just don't agree with it. I simply think female Chosen/Marauders would look silly. It has nothing to do with lore, with other races/classes, with anything else. They just don't work well in my view.

To say that it's acceptable only for guys to play the grotesque races is pretty shallow. It's also far from reality. I'd love to provide you with an actual census from WoW of how many of its female player base roll an undead,for exaample. Are undead females pretty? Do you hear alot of players say they are "silly" compared to male undead? I certianly did not. Yet, many, many female undead were rolled and leveled up to the cap.

It's a fantasy game and the fun thing is - females don't always have to play a pretty characters - they can and should have the option of playing something hideous too.

[Bluucandi]

damn double post. good night all.

[Boulvae]

The Chosen (these ones) would not look like the ones in DAoC, period. Even if they had that same build the fact that the Daemon Armour they will be wearing twenty-four seven will be very bulky to the point where it's not much of a difference between the two unless you have the helmet feature taken off (if your body hasn't turned to dust).

They also couldn't make proper looking muscular females for the Marauder if they said they couldn't do them justice enough to make them playable.

Now that assumption you've made about Witch Elves is wrong, thats there iconic look and part of their look so you can't say Mythic made them that way for the appealment to men fanbase but you CAN say that they CHOSE the Witch Elves because they appeal to the male fandbase. But no Mythic is choosing the most iconic and elite (a few made up with GW's A-OK) classes, the Witch Elves being one of THE beings of the Witch Elfen armies so picking them was a given really.

And to be frank, you don't speak for the whole female player-base, just like I can't speak for the whole chaos player base or male player base. I can only speak for myself, and you can only truly speak for yourself and those that have openly agreed with you. (If i'm coming off as particularly aggressive, i'm not, just annoyed by the whole, "I speak for ___ when I say stuff", it's really getting under my skin when everyone says that.)

[DISClAIMER: last paragraph directed to the poster right above me.]

[Taurth]

And to be frank, you don't speak for the whole female player-base, just like I can't speak for the whole chaos player base or male player base. I can only speak for myself, and you can only truly speak for yourself and those that have openly agreed with you. (If i'm coming off as particularly aggressive, i'm not, just annoyed by the whole, "I speak for ___ when I say stuff", it's really getting under my skin when everyone says that.)It'd help if you quoted who you were talking to. If you're referring to me, I don't know when I claimed I was speaking for the whole female fanbase, not even being female myself. I'm annoyed because it seems like an unjustified lore break.

If you're referring to someone else, ignore that. :rolleyes:

[Loki210]

OK, from the perspective of someone who doesnt know the lore but knows about MMOs I think while it is obviously unnecessary and only a personal preferance, I think it should be implemented. Im not sure, but people here have said that there ARE female chosen and marauders.

Lets forget lore and all that for a second though. Is it so hard to believe that a girl might wanna play WAR... and that that girl might want to be a badass Chosen or Marauder? But no, now you cant be a female because it was "unecessary" so now if you wanna play a Chosen... sorry, you have to be male. Or you could be the steryotypical Witch Elf for the sake of being able to be female and further the female gamer "have to be pretty" steryotype. That's not fair for the female player or even the male player who appreciates customization and options which is my personal favorite part of MMOs.
I just think it would be something thats easy to implement and would attract more players to different classes and also bring more attention to the game for its already pretty cool character customization abilities.

[Bluucandi]

Ok. I'm to go way out on a limb again like I did when I "spoke for the female fanbase" and I'll state that one of the reasons WoW is so popular:

There are no gender exclusive races. There choices between male and female of any race.

Now, I'm not saying Mythic should make male Witch Elves because that would indeed destroy the back story behind them. We'd lose the whole "Brides of Kaihne" ideal. I am certianly not going to touch the Greenskin situation with a ten foot pole. The male sorcerers were a definite stretching of the lore it seems. And... for all the other classes, though, design and lore are not so "black and white" within the reasoning.

As for you guys mocking with your "oh noes this is sexist, QQ more" stuff: it's understandeably easy for you to be unsympathetic since with the exception of the WE you get to roll males (or masculine looking) characters of every Destruction class. You are getting customer statisfaction in terms of what gender you can roll.

[Bluucandi]

Now that assumption you've made about Witch Elves is wrong, thats there iconic look and part of their look so you can't say Mythic made them that way for the appealment to men fanbase but you CAN say that they CHOSE the Witch Elves because they appeal to the male fandbase. But no Mythic is choosing the most iconic and elite (a few made up with GW's A-OK) classes, the Witch Elves being one of THE beings of the Witch Elfen armies so picking them was a given really.

No, no, no. I'm not saying Mythic just suddenly, out of the blue decided to make WE scantily clad. Yes, I know about the lore. What irks me is that besides the Black Guard the WE are the only female representation of the melee classes on the Destruction side. Being female, this bothers me. Being limited. Yes, I dared to speak for the female fanbase. I have no qualms about being concerned about the interests and liberties of the females who are going to play WAR.

Also, you cannot deny all the sex appeal hype behind the WE when they were introduced. Nothing wrong with playing a sexy thing but it will have it's drawbacks:

WE player: "Hey, I was getting ganked back there. How come you didn't heal me?!"
Zeolot player: "Sorry. I was too focused on your half nekkid body".

:roll:

[Commentaris]

What irks me is that besides the Black Guard the WE are the only female representation of the melee classes on the Destruction side..
techinically you also have the Disciple as a female melee character.

if the stereotype is true that women prefer to play female character then perhaps other stereotypes are also true. like:
- females prefer to play support classes (this only leaves out the shaman, if we still take the above stereotype to be true)
- females prefer to play the pretty races (this would make the above stereotypes void, because Order has all careers as female characters)

in any case, i can somewhat understand the female perspective in finding the current careers limiting. the greenskin thing cant be helped. the argument for the male-only chosen and marauders is clear and wont likely change.

this still leaves the female players 50% of the Destruction careers to choose from, including possibly the single greatest career that a female could want: the witch elf, dressed to kill, with a temper and weapons to match

edit:
WE player: "Hey, I was getting ganked back there. How come you didn't heal me?!"
Zeolot player: "Sorry. I was too focused on your half nekkid body".
not all males are testosterone driven buffoons who lose all common sense once they see a pixelated respresentation of the female form.

[Zzulu]

the argument for the male-only chosen and marauders is clear and wont likely change.



It's not clear at all. They basically said "they couldn't do it justice", but they gave no reasons why they suddenly were so incapable of coming up with a fitting design.

1. The marauder, as seen in WAR, is just a regular human able to mutate his arm. Why on gods green earth can't you have a woman do the same?

2. The chosen is a regular guy in heavy armor. Why is it impossible for the chaos gods to make armor fitting for a female? There are no lore contradictions here.

This is a chosen; http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Chaos/Careers/images/ChosenImg_01.jpg


Now make the armor slightly less bulky and there you go. A female chosen. What is so difficult about implementing that? Female heavy armor is prevalent in almost every other fantasy mmo. Sigh

[Taurth]

if the stereotype is true that women prefer to play female character then perhaps other stereotypes are also true.I wouldn't say thats a commonly thought stereotype as apposed to "People prefer to play characters of their own gender".

[Commentaris]

1. The marauder, as seen in WAR, is just a regular human able to mutate his arm. Why on gods green earth can't you have a woman do the same?
they couldn't do it justice
2. The chosen is a regular guy in heavy armor. Why is it impossible for the chaos gods to make armor fitting for a female? There are no lore contradictions here.
they couldn't do it justice

seems pretty clear to me. although i have to admit that the case against female marauders isn't as good as against female chosen.

Now make the armor slightly less bulky and there you go.
a choses is bulky. Mythic is going for an iconic look for all classes. a non-bulky, or less-bulky, chosen is not a chosen.

you cant just take the male model, slap on some curves and long hair and call it female.

[Commentaris]

I wouldn't say thats a commonly thought stereotype as apposed to "People prefer to play characters of their own gender".
probably, but males complaining about witch elves not having a male option are non-existent.

whereas the are plenty of females (and males as well, which the above common thought does not explain) who argue against male-only destruction careers.

this leads me to believe it's a stereotype that only holds true for women.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

If we look at this from a lore perspective, most chaos warriors, in general, are male. Males are usually the ones chosen out of those barbaric hordes to don such armors, and are usually the ones gifted. Perhaps because of their culture, their prowess or role in that society, honestly I can't say for certain, but it has always been this way, and to allow people to play as females of each class seems wrong to me. Now one could argue that due to our choice, even if there was the female option the male would be more prevalent, but that would still not give the actual numbers justice, in that there is small percentage of female warriors of chaos at best.

I feel especially strong about this when it comes to Chosen. Marauders, I would not mind very much since there are female minions of chaos, however tiny their population may be, but a Chosen I think would be silly. If Tzeentch wanted a death machine covered in ornate armor wielding a massive weapon of some sort, he would turn that vessel, be it man or woman, into a death machine. Basically what I'm saying is I think that despite what gender the Chosen was before they became a Chosen, inside that armor they would most likely be very much the opposite of some lithe, more slender warrior, that most seem to want.

If we were given the option for a female Chosen, and that warrior wasn't just as bulky and massive as the male Chosen, I would be dissapointed. But then, thats because I care more about Chaos being seen how it really is, and not equality for both genders or the wishes of some of our gamers.

Edit:

Also, you cannot deny all the sex appeal hype behind the WE when they were introduced. Nothing wrong with playing a sexy thing but it will have it's drawbacks

While it is unfortunate that female gamers have less choice if they wish to play their gender, that is how it has always been. Most fantasy settings are very similar to this, as it is realistic for it to be so.

On the subject of Witch Elves though, they have always been that way (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=251187), to 'cover them up' would be against Games Workshop's principles of staying as close as possible to their lore.

[Zzulu]

Mythic is going for an iconic look for all classes. a non-bulky, or less-bulky, chosen is not a chosen.
you cant just take the male model, slap on some curves and long hair and call it female.


When you see a heavily armored female with red eyes and horns, holding a massive demonic axe with demonic inscriptions all over her armor... I mean, that's pretty much as iconic as it gets.

You can't say that a chosen has to look exactly like the chosen we've seen so far, because, as many have pointed out, nowhere in the lore does it say that female chosen can't exist. And if they exist they'll have armor made for them that fits. It's fairly straightforward.


These following warhammer/warhammer 40k examples show women in just as much armor as a token Chosen;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/StCelestine.gif
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/316/4/3/Sisters_of_battle_by_andreauderzo.jpg
http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2004/350/d/2/Sisters_of_battle_by_Tommu.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/158/e/6/Battle_Sisters_Desktop_by_FreekishlyTwiztd.jpg

[Ralzar]

For Chosen I still just wish they'd go for the a-sexual approach. Part of the charm of the chosen is that you have no idea what hides beneath the armour. Not even what gender it is. Or if it even still has a gender.

[Zzulu]

For Chosen I still just wish they'd go for the a-sexual approach. Part of the charm of the chosen is that you have no idea what hides beneath the armour. Not even what gender it is. Or if it even still has a gender.

except for when they take off their helmet?

[Commentaris]

You can't say that a chosen has to look exactly like the chosen we've seen so far, because, as many have pointed out, nowhere in the lore does it say that female chosen can't exist. And if they exist they'll have armor made for them that fits. It's fairly straightforward.

nearly all the careers in WAR sofar are at odds with the lore, or at the very least have elements in it that are not according to the lore.

even games workshop themselves break or reinvent the background story if it so pleases them. Mythic is doing the same. they're making a version of the warhammer universe, not a carbon copy.

[Ralzar]

except for when they take off their helmet?

Simple, don't allow them to do that. Or just give them facial options that are both male and female.
But I'd really prefer if Chosen had helmet-customization instead of facial customization.

[Zzulu]

nearly all the careers in WAR sofar are at odds with the lore, or at the very least have elements in it that are not according to the lore.

even games workshop themselves break or reinvent the background story if it so pleases them. Mythic is doing the same. they're making a version of the warhammer universe, not a carbon copy.

Yes I know, that's why I think it's fairly straightforward. Nothing stopping them from making a less bulky chosen to please the masses.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/StCelestine.gif
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/316/4/3/Sisters_of_battle_by_andreauderzo.jpg
http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2004/350/d/2/Sisters_of_battle_by_Tommu.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/158/e/6/Battle_Sisters_Desktop_by_FreekishlyTwiztd.jpg

None of these characters are even from the same game as Warhammer. Nor do they have a similar amount of armor, or type, or even belong to a similar faction as the Chosen, they're not even from a similar timeline. You're taking armor from Warhammer 40,000 and comparing it to Warhammer, which hoenstly does not translate.

[Commentaris]

Yes I know, that's why I think it's fairly straightforward. Nothing stopping them from making a less bulky chosen to please the masses.
sorry, but i think the masses are fine with the chosen being male only.

it's only a vocal minority that are against it

[Graven]

For Chosen I still just wish they'd go for the a-sexual approach. Part of the charm of the chosen is that you have no idea what hides beneath the armour. Not even what gender it is. Or if it even still has a gender.

Yeah, that's actually one thing that's been ... well not bothering me, but you get the idea.

A Chosen is bulky. And armored, head to toes, especially in higher tiers. How is one to actually know if the thing he's facing is male or female if it's all covered in armor, bird beaks, blue-ish eyes and spikes? Unless the player removes the helmet, there is simply no way to tell whether it's a female or a male

This :
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Chaos/Careers/images/ChosenImg_04.jpg
well... it might just be me, but there is simply no way to tell the gender of this Chosen. Yeah, if it were female, the breast plate might be a little different... but it also might not. So... is there really that big a need to have the argument about female Chosen?

[Zzulu]

None of these characters are even from the same game as Warhammer. Nor do they have a similar amount of armor, or type, or even belong to a similar faction as the Chosen, they're not even from a similar timeline. You're taking armor from Warhammer 40,000 and comparing it to Warhammer, which hoenstly does not translate.

It's aesthetics. Anyone with functioning eyesight can determine that these are women in super heavy armor and it looks good. This was my point. Why does it have to be from warhammer fantasy to prove that very point?

[Taurth]

If we look at this from a lore perspective, most chaos warriors, in general, are male. Males are usually the ones chosen out of those barbaric hordes to don such armors, and are usually the ones gifted. Perhaps because of their culture, their prowess or role in that society, honestly I can't say for certain, but it has always been this way, and to allow people to play as females of each class seems wrong to me. Now one could argue that due to our choice, even if there was the female option the male would be more prevalent, but that would still not give the actual numbers justice, in that there is small percentage of female warriors of chaos at best.

I feel especially strong about this when it comes to Chosen. Marauders, I would not mind very much since there are female minions of chaos, however tiny their population may be, but a Chosen I think would be silly. If Tzeentch wanted a death machine covered in ornate armor wielding a massive weapon of some sort, he would turn that vessel, be it man or woman, into a death machine. Basically what I'm saying is I think that despite what gender the Chosen was before they became a Chosen, inside that armor they would most likely be very much the opposite of some lithe, more slender warrior, that most seem to want.

If we were given the option for a female Chosen, and that warrior wasn't just as bulky and massive as the male Chosen, I would be dissapointed. But then, thats because I care more about Chaos being seen how it really is, and not equality for both genders or the wishes of some of our gamers.

Edit:

While it is unfortunate that female gamers have less choice if they wish to play their gender, that is how it has always been. Most fantasy settings are very similar to this, as it is realistic for it to be so.

On the subject of Witch Elves though, they have always been that way (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=251187), to 'cover them up' would be against Games Workshop's principles of staying as close as possible to their lore.You do realize that lore wise Dwarf Females are a lot (I mean, nonexistent) less common on the battlefield than female Chaos followers, right?

[Infallius_Daemonium]

It's aesthetics. Anyone with functioning eyesight can determine that these are women in super heavy armor and it looks good.

Super heavy futuristic armor and super heavy medieval armor are very different, my point was that you should not compare the two. . .as anyone with functioning eyesight can determine.

This was my point. Why does it have to be from warhammer fantasy to prove that very point?
Because we're talking about Warhammer Fantasy. An example from Warhammer Fantasy has much more bearing than from any other game.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

You do realize that lore wise Dwarf Females are a lot (I mean, nonexistent) less common on the battlefield than female Chaos followers, right?

My apolagies, I thought we were talking about Chaos. Also, the only Dwarf class allowed female as a choice seems to be the Engineer.

[Zzulu]

Super heavy futuristic armor and super heavy medieval armor are very different, my point was that you should not compare the two. . .as anyone with functioning eyesight can determine.

And your reasoning for this is? Warhammer 40K armor is based on medieval concepts, so they're a fair comparison. I chose the sisters of battle because they're heavily medieval inspired.


Because we're talking about Warhammer Fantasy. An example from Warhammer Fantasy has much more bearing than from any other game.Then look at the heavily armored female classes of the empire. Make the shoulderpads more spikey and give them a huge axe and red eyes and there you go.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Then look at the heavily armored female classes of the empire. Make the shoulderpads more spikey and give them a huge axe and red eyes and there you go.

As I already said, I do not think that would suit. Tzeentch bends his tools into appropriate shapes based on their purpose. That is why you do not see skinny chaos warriors and massive hulking sorcerers. The Chosen's purpose is be a 'death machine' as I like to refer to them. Why would Tzeentch change his death machine into a slightly less bulky and more lithe death machine, simply because it is female?

[NoneSuch]

My apolagies, I thought we were talking about Chaos. Also, the only Dwarf class allowed female as a choice seems to be the Engineer.

Not sure where you get your infomation, but all dwarfs can be female.

[Zzulu]

As I already said, I do not think that would suit. Tzeentch bends his tools into appropriate shapes based on their purpose. That is why you do not see skinny chaos warriors and massive hulking sorcerers. The Chosen's purpose is be a 'death machine' as I like to refer to them. Why would Tzeentch change his death machine into a slightly less bulky and more lithe death machine, simply because it is female?

But that is a lore reason. If we went by lore-logic, then there would be no dwarf females in battle either, no male sorcerors and as far as I know, no female warrior priests.

And to be honest, making a female chosen is the smallest lore bend of them all

[Infallius_Daemonium]

But that is a lore reason. If we went by lore-logic, then there would be no dwarf females in battle either, no male sorcerors and as far as I know, no female warrior priests.

And to be honest, making a female chosen is the smallest lore bend of them all

I can only go by 'lore-logic' I am afraid. . . any other doesn't make much sense to me when to comes to Warhammer.

Edit: Was incredibly mistaken, my memory seems to have failed me once again.

For Warrior Priests, though usually male, I know of no reason for them to be only male, but that is not an area I have really looked into.

When it comes to the sorceror, I am not knowledgeable enough with the Dark Elf race to go arguing about it in their forums, but it was also my understanding that if nothing else, they do exist.

However yes a female Chosen is not a lore breach. I would rather them not be in the game not because it would be a lore breach, but because I think there would be little to no difference between the two. Tzeentch would change them accordingly, so if you did have a female Chosen, as some have said the only real difference could perhaps be her face. But then again, most Chosen fight with their helmets on.

I do not despise the idea of female Chosen, or female Marauders, but I do think they are a small minority and in the case of female Chosen, would hardly be what many want them to be, a more lithe and less bulky version of a Chosen.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Not sure where you get your infomation, but all dwarfs can be female.

Edit: Yes, I seem to have forgotten about them from the last year. . . now I feel silly.

[Zzulu]

Here's what seems to be a female ironbreaker anyway; http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/0607_SSt_08.jpg

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Yes, I searched through the screenshots database and found many from last year. An Ironbreaker or Hammerer really doesn't look proper without a massive beard. . . unfortunate.

[Taurth]

My apolagies, I thought we were talking about Chaos. Also, the only Dwarf class allowed female as a choice seems to be the Engineer.You completely missed my point. If female Dwarfs are even rarer than female Chaos followers, then why from a lore perspective should they have a female option and Chaos shouldn't?

And female Dwarfs will be playable as any class.

EDIT: As I already said, I do not think that would suit. Tzeentch bends his tools into appropriate shapes based on their purpose. That is why you do not see skinny chaos warriors and massive hulking sorcerers. The Chosen's purpose is be a 'death machine' as I like to refer to them. Why would Tzeentch change his death machine into a slightly less bulky and more lithe death machine, simply because it is female? Once again you seem to be grossly misinformed. Since when did Tzeentch make all his non-magic based followers muscular? Judging by other material besides WAR, Tzeentch seems to have very lithe Champions and warriors.

Here are some examples:

http://images.gamedev.net/features/art/warhammer/developmentchaos.jpg
http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/wallpapers/images/wp05-1024x768.jpg

[Infallius_Daemonium]

You completely missed my point. If female Dwarfs are even rarer than female Chaos followers, then why from a lore perspective should they have a female option and Chaos shouldn't?
And female Dwarfs will be playable as any class.


I have already corrected myself, thank you though. Given the strange state the Dawi are in, no, female Marauders and CHosen, presented correctly, would not be hard to swallow.


EDIT: Once again you seem to be grossly misinformed. Since when did Tzeentch make all his non-magic based followers muscular? Judging by other material besides WAR, Tzeentch seems to have very lithe Champions and warriors.

Here are some examples:

http://images.gamedev.net/features/art/warhammer/developmentchaos.jpg
http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/wallpapers/images/wp05-1024x768.jpg
Fortunately I accidentally pressed the back buton on my mouse, so I caught this edit of yours. I had hoped I would not be mocked for one mistake, but clearly those same hopes have been dashed.

If you would look at the Armies of War description, you would see your own wrongs as I have. These Chosen of Tzeentch are not non-magic based, they are in factthe near opposite of that, in that they wield magic as well as sword. Though my own error pains me, it is good to know that I am not the only one who can be misinformed.

[Ralzar]

This thread is getting more and more constructive... :rolleyes:


I just wish Mythic could have handled this whole sorry mess a bit better. I mean, all they had to do was say "Implementing unique character models for Chosen and Marauder females was simply deemed to cost too many resources compared to what it added to the game."
Even if it had been a lie, it would have been a good plausible lie with a bit of "our hands are tied" flavour thrown in. But instead they have to go and pull the lore into it, which just aggrivates the Warhammer fans a LOT more than a bit of resourceallocation would have done.

Choices that have dircetly to do with game design, we mostly accept. Because most of us aren't silly enough to assume that we know more about game design than Mythic.

Choices that have directly to do with lore though? You got a fight on your hands there.

[Taurth]

I have already corrected myself, thank you though. Given the strange state the Dawi are in, no, female Marauders and CHosen, presented correctly, would not be hard to swallow.


Fortunately I accidentally pressed the back buton on my mouse, so I caught this edit of yours. I had hoped I would not be mocked for one mistake, but clearly those same hopes have been dashed.

If you would look at the Armies of War description, you would see your own wrongs as I have. These Chosen of Tzeentch are not non-magic based, they are in factthe near opposite of that, in that they wield magic as well as sword. Though my own error pains me, it is good to know that I am not the only one who can be misinformed.
I'm confused as to what you're actually talking about. You said Tzeentch makes his Warriors who don't use magic muscular like the Chosen. I provided an image proving that it was not the case.

I never said they the Chosen was magic based. And the picture I linked is of a Champion of Tzeentch, who isn't a magic user and is very lithe, proving your point wrong.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

I'm confused as to what you're actually talking about. You said Tzeentch makes his Warriors who don't use magic muscular like the Chosen. I provided an image proving that it was not the case.

I never said they the Chosen was magic based. And the picture I linked is of a Champion of Tzeentch, who isn't a magic user and is very lithe, proving your point wrong.

I justified why the Chosen of Tzeentch follows the same archetype of most Chaos Warriors, which the Chosen of Tzeentch has many resemblances to. Essentially, he is a Chosen of Tzeentch by tabletop definition who can use magic.

You said "when did Tzeentch make all his non-magic based followers muscular?"
I was trying to explain to you that the Chosen of Tzeentch is not non-magic based, he is in fact magic based as well as however you want to describe chopping someone with an object.

Also, one Champion of Tzeentch in no way devalidates my point as I never stated what you seem to think I did. Here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/special-characters/2/)we have a chaos warrior who worships Tzeentch wielding a large sword. He is not particulary lithe, wears a large amount of armor, and wields a large weapon. Does that mean I just proved you wrong?

[Taurth]

Also, one Champion of Tzeentch in no way devalidates my point as I never stated what you seem to think I did. Here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/special-characters/2/)we have a chaos warrior who worships Tzeentch wielding a large sword. He is not particulary lithe, wears a large amount of armor, and wields a large weapon. Does that mean I just proved you wrong?
Well in you claiming Tzeentch shapes his warriors into huge behemoths so that they are "death machines", then yes I did prove you wrong because that image shows they don't necessarily need to be huge.

If you ask me Aekold Hellbrass is quite lithe, especially compared to followers of Khorne or Nurgle. If you look through Liber Chaotica too, you'll see quite a few more lithe, Knight Like warriors sketched in the Tzeentch section.

Anyway, we seem to have lost track here. My point was you claimed there wouldn't be any slightly less bulky version of the Chosen (I.E a Female Chosen) because Tzeentch makes his warriors huge. That Warrior in the picture I linked is thinner than what a female Chosen would be, so I don't see why an even slightly less bulkier version of the Chosen is lore breaking.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

If you ask me Aekold Hellbrass is quite lithe, especially compared to followers of Khorne or Nurgle. If you look through Liber Chaotica too, you'll see quite a few more lithe, Knight Like warriors sketched in the Tzeentch section.

I think that is where we differ, I consider most Warriors of Tzeentch to be average or somewhat larger, while Khorne and Nurgle are genrally monstrous or at least much larger, and Slaanesh is much more lithe and agile. Comparing all of this to humans, of course.

My point was never to say that all of Tzeentch's warriors are like the Chosen, but more that the Chosen, like Chaos Warriors, is. He seems to be a Chaos Warrior who can use magic, and has been modelled as such.

I do not think there would be little to any noticeable difference between a female or male Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch, which the Chosen seems to be modelled after, but if they decided to put them into the game I wouldn't care much considering the other questionable, but not neccesarily lore breaking, things they have already done.

[Boulvae]

Warmachine has elaborated this much better, the Chosen are the MUSCLE of the chaos gods (even though these Chosen look more Khornate with blue and bird decals).

[Taurth]

What WarMachine said was pretty debatable.

Me and Ralzer had a different opinion to him. He believes the Chosen was a seperate entity in a Chaos army different to a Champion or Chaos Warrior, which MUST be super bulky as thats what a Chosen is (in his opinion).

Whereas me and Razler believed it was more or less another name for someone in the road to becoming a Daemon Prince. I.E a Champion would likely have just been a Marauder who rose up in power, theres no real stages other than a constant rise or fall in their patron God's eyes. They're all just names for people in different stages of the Chaos hierarchy.

[Boulvae]

Even the Chaos hierarchy is pretty vague, only the absolute certainties are mentioned cause it's easier to identify them that way.

Even Daemon Princes are labeled as such no matter their age OR power because it's just easier, even though the Daemon Princes have their own little hierarchy i'm sure behoind the scenes where they are still growing more powerful, gaining wisdom and knowledge WAY beyond our possible comprehension.

[CousinSven]

im sorry but either come up with a half-important topic or just dont post at all. not trying to be that guy but this thread has little to no substance.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Me and Ralzer had a different opinion to him. He believes the Chosen was a seperate entity in a Chaos army different to a Champion or Chaos Warrior, which MUST be super bulky as thats what a Chosen is (in his opinion).

Well, the Chosen of Tzeentch are described as: "hulking behemoths ". So, whatever they are, they are 'super bulky' or however you want to phrase it.

[Ralzar]

Well, the Chosen of Tzeentch are described as: "hulking behemoths ". So, whatever they are, they are 'super bulky' or however you want to phrase it.

That's just how Mythic has decided to portray them, as that's the most iconic look of the chaos warrior. And Mythic is all about the iconic looks.
That doesn't mean it's against the lore to have slimmer chosen though.

From a game design point of view: Yes, they're all bulky, because that's how their in-game model was designed.

From a lore point of view: Nothing says they have to be bulky and there are several examples of slimmer warriors of chaos (particularly Tzeenchian and Slaanesh)


It's supposed to be CHAOS. It's sort of part of the point that they don't adhere to hard and unchanging rules.

[Taurth]

im sorry but either come up with a half-important topic or just dont post at all. not trying to be that guy but this thread has little to no substance.
Alright guys, shows over. Everyone go home.

That guy told us to stop, no-one else post here. Its over, move along.

[Baron Khaine]

Ack thee Taurth, he already thinks he owns the Marauder forums, he's talking like it in other Marauder threads as well. He won't last long. We've been here for far longer, were the more knowledgeable on not only Marauders but on how these forums work.

[Ralzar]

Ack thee Taurth, he already thinks he owns the Marauder forums, he's talking like it in other Marauder threads as well. He won't last long. We've been here for far longer, were the more knowledgeable on not only Marauders but on how these forums work.

Just the fact that we know "being a dink" is against the rules gives us an edge ;)

[Tyurion]

Having spent all time in the chosen forum recently its strange to see that gender issues rage all through the chaos forum. I think that female marauders are fine because norse tribes have both genders. Im not too sure on chosen. Tzeentch prefers men because they tend to have a stronger build and can resist mutation more and from my silly point of view they do evil laugh better. Plus it wudnt make a real difference ingame it would just be armor blated monster with breasts

[Tyurion]

Also, one Champion of Tzeentch in no way devalidates my point as I never stated what you seem to think I did. Here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/special-characters/2/)we have a chaos warrior who worships Tzeentch wielding a large sword. He is not particulary lithe, wears a large amount of armor, and wields a large weapon. Does that mean I just proved you wrong?
Sorry man, thats just an old model where they cant have them looking lithe or its too much fuss to put togehter. Look at any of the WAR chosen and youll be proven right though.

[RavenCraven]

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see any reason to implement female chosen/marauder's, I just don't see it fit. Though I also feel like the sorcerer's doesn't fit.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Sorry man, thats just an old model where they cant have them looking lithe or its too much fuss to put togehter. Look at any of the WAR chosen and youll be proven right though.


Actually, if you click on the link to buy that model from the Online Store (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=COMP0201010&orignav=301116), you will see that he is actually in two pieces, one being everything but his icon, and the other being. . . his icon. ;)

[Xenu]

Why do people want to play females so badly? A great majority of the playerbase is male, it's weird that you want to pretend to be a girl online.

[Boulvae]

Three reasons:

1) To exploit those trying to look for girls online.

2) Because it's new and different.

3) Some people don't like staring at the behind of same sex characters all the time, they'd like to play opposite sex so they can sare at what they like for god awful long times.

[Taurth]

Three reasons:

1) To exploit those trying to look for girls online.

2) Because it's new and different.

3) Some people don't like staring at the behind of same sex characters all the time, they'd like to play opposite sex so they can sare at what they like for god awful long times.Generalize much?

How about all the lore issues that have been discusses to death, y'know the one I started this thread about? Or did you not read that?

[Boulvae]

I was taking it as a question of everyone in general, for all MMO(RPG, FPS) games capable of giving such options.

All those answers aply but if he actually meant for the lore (which I didn't read it that way) then yes i'd give the top answers for generalization for all games giving choice between female and male aswell as the extremely important lore/iconic reasons.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

How about all the lore issues that have been discusses to death, y'know the one I started this thread about?

No, I'm pretty sure you just wanna to look at her . :)

Joking of course.

[Ralzar]

Yeah, I probably won't even play a female chosen/marauder. Never felt comfertable playing the opposite sex. But I want the option to be there.

If nothing else it would at least stop people from claiming chosen/marauders are male-only because of the lore.

[Fexxe]

I'll pass personally.

I for one don't want to see female Chosen running around with weird looking chest-plates, or grotesque mutated women out of Total recall.

Regardless of the fact that there are going to be male sorceres, I just think having female Chosen/Marauders would be silly.
I agree here.

But for the interest of others, I would still vote Yes for female Marauders and Chosen.
Female Marauder = Mutated breasts as main dps mutation ;)

[Baron Khaine]

I agree here.

But for the interest of others, I would still vote Yes for female Marauders and Chosen.
Female Marauder = Mutated breasts as main dps mutation ;)

And that my good friend, and your opinion, is why I don't want to see Female Marauders, less Hentai plx.

[Estebar]

I'd say female Marauders are a little easier to design.

You can take any of the male Marauder designs with the criss-cross straps across the chest (examples 1 (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Marauder_01.jpg), 2 (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Marauder_03.jpg) & 3 (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/marauder_model.jpg)) and simply lift them up to cover the breasts with the lower parts of the straps. Simple really. Then replace the bushy beard with bushy hair or lots and lots of braids.

Most of the Marauder's strength is really coming from his mutations anyway, so a female could qualify to fight just as hard as a male in that respect because gifts from Tzeentch give unnatural strength to anyone regardless of gender.

"Awww, look at the cute lil girly-girly trying to be a Witch Elf! That's right honey, you just keep on swinging that axe! Makes you jiggle faster! And... what's happening to your arm? AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!" *crunch, slice, smash, stab, stab, stab, slam* Thing is, I would want to play a female Marauder. I think the idea is great. Not sure how well the female barbarian imagery would work, but shape-morphing women have always struck a chord in me, however uncontrolled the ability might be. Mystique from X-Men anyone?

[Zzulu]

I just made a pretty badass female marauder in photoshop. I'll try to get it finished asap

[ManiaCCC]

I just made a pretty badass female marauder in photoshop. I'll try to get it finished asap

Looking forward.. :)

[Swiftblades]

Might be a stupid question, but if there are no female, where do the new Marauders come from? Do the Chaos gods go to shops and say, I wud like 4 Marauders, 5 Zealots and euhm, can I get a Chosen free?

[Gemini]

Might be a stupid question, but if there are no female, where do the new Marauders come from? Do the Chaos gods go to shops and say, I wud like 4 Marauders, 5 Zealots and euhm, can I get a Chosen free?

Well, first of all, there are female Marauders, thats what this whole damn thread is about. But lets just say there wasn't, for the sake of this post.

Yes, they kind of do that. A Norsemen (or any human, but we're playing the Norsemen) succumbs to the will of a Chaos god, and thus tries to prove himslef to said god. Khorne, you fight fight fight, Slaanesh you pleasure yourself through both battle and unimagingably sick things no one that isn't corrupted by Chaos could think of, ect ect. If a person proves themself, or the god just feels like doing it, then the god will bestow powers. So, really, Tzeentch might one day go "Okay, you, you and you, here are some uncontrollable arm mutations, enjoy." And then to one of his up-and-coming great Chaos Warriors, he might think to himself "That guy sure has kicked a lot of Nurgle butt, he shall become a Chosen One." It's probably not a snap your fingers it's done sort of thing, but you get the idea.

The point is, Chaos worshippers are still human or at least once were human, and thus came from the womb just like you and me. The mother might not have crazy unctrollable arm mutations, the mother might not even be a Chaos worshipper, but hey, she might be. You just don't come out of the womb encased in Chaos armor, or carrying a skull that can bring suffering to the masses that resist the Raven God.

[Zzulu]

They're all at home, baking chaos cookies for their husbands when they get home from a tiring dark crusade.

[Ralzar]

Ok, currently reading the Hordes Of Chaos army book, and I ran across this which I felt I had to post.

On page 10:



THE CHOSEN OF CHAOS

The Northmen are great warriors, and not only the men, for there are many amongst their womenfolk whose strength at arms and ferocity far surpasses that of the soft races of the south.


The chapter goes on to describe how these warriors of the north can become chosen.


Now stop with the damn "lore" argument for male-only chosen.

[Zzulu]

Not sure if it's even noticable, but I made the guy shorter and gave the woman a scar.

Feel free to improve upon it guys


http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4977/maraudercouple4copydh9.jpg

[Taurth]

Wow... thats awesome.

Yay, definitely.

EDIT: See, I don't know how Mythic can use the excuse that they couldn't make a female Marauder iconic enough. That right there in my opinion is game worthy as it is, and its not even created by the games official concept artists.

[spirit]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/Zzulu/dangercouple.jpg

Yay or nay?


Yay. Definitely. That's the kind of conan-esque warrior woman female marauders need to be!

[Ralzar]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/Zzulu/dangercouple.jpg

Yay or nay?

Wow, that's impressive. I'd prefer her slightly (and by slightly I do mean slightly) bulkier. Put next to the male she's perhaps a tad too slim. But I still give this picture a "Hell yes!".

Edit: Btw, what's the original female art you used for that? A piece of AoC concept art or what?

[Zzulu]

*Edited for content*

[Warsaw]

Um... actually. Nah. I don't like that drawing at all. She looks to frail to me. It makes me think, hey, maybe thats why they dont want females. They look to frail. I never really had anything against female marauders or chosen until I saw that. She dosn't look like a really tough person to me IMO. Maybe if she had more muscle. Thats probably what a female marauder would look something like that and thats the problem. I don't see her as a marauder. She looks to (oh gork and mork.... :( I shouldn't say this) sexy. :P She looks like she would be a part of slaneesh. I just don't see marauder in her.

[Zzulu]

Marauders are just people with mutations. Look at the male marauders. They look like regular muscled and bearded men. You're entitled to your opinion though, but remember that this was just something I gobbled up in Photoshop. Mythic could surely make it justice.

[Ralzar]

Hm, try enlarging the female so she's the same height as the male. That way she wouldn't look so much smaller.

[Taurth]

*Edited for content*Why was that edited? :?

Also I just looked at the original image you used for the body, and I think the size it was originally was already appropriate; there wasn't any need to thin it down even though it still looks good.

[Warsaw]

I would say the problem is she has to be meaner and more savage looking then the male marauder. I say this because wouldnt most women just get and killed so if there was a female marauder traveling with so many men around she would have to protect her self. I'm not sure how civilized chaos warbands are in terms of allowing women to lead but it would probably safe to assume she would have to be bad . Make the women bigger then the men and then I would like it. Plus I think it would be a very popular class for women being that they would be bigger then the men and what not. A nice dominance thing. Chances are the dark elves give something of that nature but with the gender restrictions I think having chaos women being bigger then the males would be cool. The power of the!-... well I wont go that far.

[Ralzar]

Why was that edited? :?

I was honestly wondering that myself. *raises eyebrow*

[Zzulu]

Not sure if it's even noticable, but I made the guy shorter and gave the woman a scar.

Feel free to improve upon it guys


http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7979/57657wh2.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4977/maraudercouple4copydh9.jpg)

I find the woman to already look more savage than the man, who, in my opinion, kind of looks ordinary.

[Dagoth]

What she really needs is uglyness.

[Warsaw]

Ya. I think thats more like it. Maybe have the females become bigger then the males at rank 40 so it shows that they have wooped among the males. I just think to make it realistic and fair to the fact women have to be tough that a women should be stronger and bigger to emphasize on that fact. She would have to be very tough. I'll see if I can't edit the picture but it's been a long time since I've used PS or anything.

Dagoth: Perhaps. But maybe not in the sense she is ugly in her fact but her over all body. Like super muscle ugly. You know when women pump them selves with steroids? That ugly.

[Zzulu]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think a marauder needs to be super muscled, not even a female. The guys are not much muscled at all and to have a female look more muscled would be quite an oddity. Just assume she survived and rose to warrior rank amongst brutes because she was simply better and more ferocious in combat, rather than just simply stronger.

[Ralzar]

Then new one looks even better. If I still had PS I'd make her just a tad taller, but she's hoenstly great the way she is.
And muscle bulk isn't everything. Skill, speed, ferocity and the favour of the gods count for quite a bit as well ;)

[Taurth]

Not sure if you missed my edit:

Also I just looked at the original image you used for the body, and I think the size it was originally was already appropriate; there wasn't any need to thin it down even though it still looks good.The only problem I've seen with some of the things you've shooped seems to be that you make them too thin, almost Elf like. They'd look amazing if the women just had a bit more of a fuller figure.

To the comments about the face: Its irrelevant if its ugly or not, if female Marauders were added they'd have ugly and prettier options.

[Warsaw]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/Town_Militia/rrre.jpg

I made her arms and leg thicker. She is also taller. It's closer to what I would want to see.

I don't have photo shop so I use gimp, paint.net and regular old paint. :P Improvision beats all! :P It's also not the best PS job but you get what I want. I found her to slender befor.

[Taurth]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/Town_Militia/rrre.jpg

I made her arms and leg thicker. She is also taller. It's closer to what I would want to see.

I don't have photo shop so I use gimp, paint.net and regular old paint. :P Improvision beats all! :P It's also not the best PS job but you get what I want. I found her to slender befor.I much prefer Zzulu's version to that. However I believe she shouldn't have made the original (http://www.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/conceptart35.jpg) image any thinner. I wouldn't want to see it any bulkier than the original though.

Zzulu's version still looks great though, and is the best version of a female Marauder (or possible the only one :rolleyes:) we've seen.

[Warsaw]

I should probably add with chaos being chaos I think there fighting style is a bit like orcs. There is not real style just run into a battle swinging your choppa or in this case arms so I do think a huge part of a marauder or any chaos that does melee fighting should be their size. And remember this is Tzneetch the god of change. Tzneetch wants the original picture to be changed bulkier. He told me so. ;)

[Zzulu]

I think we should reserve these types of women; http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/Zzulu/iwd2_0107d04.jpg


For the chosen ;), as they are the only ones who should be musclebound to obscene levels.

[Warsaw]

Except we remove her breasts. If chaos chosen females were in I would want their breasts to be flat. Again like a steroid user. You could still have the image of the breasts on the breast plate but it would be more so of designs that gave away their were breasts their. Like gold rims in a circle on both sides of the chest plate so you know it's designed around breasts. Anything else tho that barbarian would make a great chosen.

[Taurth]

Feel free to improve upon it guys

I took Zzulu's advice and made it what in my opinion is a more appropriate size. Thoughts anyone?

http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/39759/2003483232369977070_rs.jpg

[Warsaw]

A lot better IMO. I still say a bit more muscle on the arms and a bit fatter of a mid section, but not as severe as I did. (Even tho I would prefer it) She should still have a more slender face tho.

[Zzulu]

Looks good. But she looks almost bigger than the guy now :)

[Accipiter]

Gender restrictions should be avoided whenever possible. As a Destruction player, if you want to look female and play as either a tank or a melee dps, then you are forced to play a DE class. I don't think this is good for the game.

Given that there will be women playing this game and many, if not most, of them will want to look like a woman in-game, they are more likely to choose the faction with the most options. In addition, some couples like to play together so there will be guys who end up playing Order simply because there are not enough options for their wife or girlfriend in the Destruction faction.

I know that the majority on this forum will go Destruction but there are compelling reasons to believe that Order will outnumber Destruction come release. (And if that's not the case, it still doesn't affect my argument much.) Limiting the gender choices so severely for one faction may contribute to an overall population imbalance.

Mythic should re-evaluate allowing Marauders and Chosen players to choose female avatars.

[Zzulu]

Mythic should re-evaluate allowing Marauders and Chosen players to choose female avatars.


I think they are. At least for the Chosen. It was stated in a quote somewhere.

[Ralzar]

I took Zzulu's advice and made it what in my opinion is a more appropriate size. Thoughts anyone?

http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/39759/2003483232369977070_rs.jpg

Oooh, very nice. Now she's getting about the size I was envisioning as well.

[Boulvae]

The only thing she lacks is a snarl or something, I mean she her face expression is just kinda clashing with her pose.

[Gemini]

I think they are. At least for the Chosen. It was stated in a quote somewhere.

Yep, they said they were re-evaluating gender restriction choices in a somewhat recent interview, after the delay was annouced. And considering the Witch Elf will never ever be male (and they said as much in the interview) that could only mean the Marauder and Chosen. We'll see if anything becomes of that though.

[Accipiter]

Most excellent. I haven't been following things as closely lately. I'm fine with a class here and there being restricted for lore reasons, but it just never made sense to have so many in the Destruction faction.

[Zzulu]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/Zzulu/deadwitchhunterfemaggggggggglemarau.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1348/deadwitchhunterfemalemats4.jpg)
a slightly more dangerous marauder. Less pretty, more blood and armor

[FoulPet]

Nothing great but my attempt to add some flavor.

http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zoh1lt5.jpg

[Taurth]

If the IP doesn’t demand a restriction, does it make sense in terms of the aesthetic vision AND core visual vocabulary of the game to offer both genders? In cases like the Chosen and the Marauder, we felt that it would be inappropriate for our game to try and develop female versions of these careers. We needed them both to be physically terrifying, even at low levels without any armor on. The absurd bodily proportions necessary to achieve that can work on a male model, as it simply makes them look freakishly huge and intimidating. On a female model, however, they just looked awkward and unpleasant.This puts doubts in my mind Mythic will be implementing females versions of the Marauder and Chosen. I wouldn't mind knowing if any devs have noticed our images and what they think of them though.

[Kharlene]

When it comes to the Chosen and Marauder, Mythic particularly castrated themselves when comes to displaying how dramatically versatile they can be. And that can also be said about the male Sorcerer as well.

The main thing with the Marauder is, as Josh put it once that when the mutations occur, for the women it might cause "1000 thousand bewbies" to sprout or some stupid retarded b.s. along those lines... But given the fact the mutations only occur with the left arm, this is immediately bunk and makes all the more clear Mythic (as Josh was representing the company) was just looking for another excuse aside from "we don't think they look iconic enough". Well, personally, I think this little vixen of a chaos warrior (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/slaanesh/images/cult-art.jpg) is pretty "iconic" looking and would look awesome as a Marauder, and if you tell me she doesn't look like she's ready to disembowel her enemies string out their bloody entrails all over the battlefield before drinking the blood out of his comrade's neck while holding their decapitated heads in her other-hand... I'm going to say you're full of ****... And then there's those who say "but the female Marauders would show too much skin!!!", first off, where does it say any where that they would have to, secondly - have you seen the Sorceresses and Witch Elves here? I don't see why they wouldn't have to show any more skin than the female Zealot or the male Marauder... There is absolutely zero reasons why their cannot be a female Marauder... :rolleyes:

As for the Chaos Chosen, the only drum that is being pounded away there is, female Chosen do not look "iconic" enough... That to me is just evidence of a limited imagination, which has zero place when playing a game where big all powerful gods can infuse anyone and everyone they want with "chaos energies" to make them look any way they want... Please... quit being so imaginatively obtuse... Awhile back there was a pic of a Tzeentch female Chosen fanart pic (that was not Father Jack's), and it looked absolutely phenomenal! As she was in the exact same type of armor as the male, and definitely looked feminine, while also looking downright badass... Sadly, it's no longer in the fanart section of this site anymore, but it looked fricking incredible. Anyone who was here back when it was first announced that there were no female Chosen and Marauders knows what I'm talking about, because that's when that pic was circling around the most here.

[Taurth]

Anyone who was here back when it was first announced that there were no female Chosen and Marauders knows what I'm talking about, because that's when that pic was circling around the most here.I think I know the picture you're refering to, but if its the one I'm thinking of, it was far too thin. Thats not to say I don't think it could be done.

I think some slight curves in the Armor, whilst still remaining bulky could look very good. As for the female Marauders, I think Mythic should take a look at this (http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4977/maraudercouple4copydh9.jpg) picture Zzulu made, and this (http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/39759/2003483232369977070_rs.jpg) version that I edited to look bulkier.

[Kharlene]

I think I know the picture you're refering to, but if its the one I'm thinking of, it was far too thin. Thats not to say I don't think it could be done.

Yup, I think we are thinking of the same one, because she was fairly thin, but she looked awesome in the Tzeentch Chosen armor. But, what I'm having trouble understanding is why she has to be massive in the first place. Don't misunderstand me, I don't mind bulk, hell, I played a female Tauren warrior in WoW for awhile and had a female Troll lvl 50 Shaman in DAoC, too, so I don't mind bulk. I mean, though yes she is a Chosen of Slaanesh (?) the linked pic of that female Chosen wasn't massive and bulky, either. And somehow when I think of a god labeled as "Changer of Ways", I don't automatically think gargantuan - I know Mythic was looking to do the more stereotypical looking Chosen which are massive and bulky, but though the information and pics for female Chosen is extraordinarily limited, what is there for them is their stereotype, none of which being massive or bulky... but they do have muscle, for they are still strong as hell and powerful, something I take it you sort of have to be to become a Chosen other than being utterly devoted to their god. ;)

[Taurth]

Lorewise, I'd expect to see a Chosen of Tzeentch incredibly slim and lithe. However, the way Mythic has portrayed them is incredibly bulky, and so a female would have to follow suit to fit in with the way the Chosen has been portrayed in WAR.

As Mythic has said, they're into silhouettes and being able to recognize a class from a distance, and because the male Chosen has been portrayed as incredibly bulky, a female would have to aswell.

Personally I'd of preferred it if they went with a more lithe looking Chosen, as I feel it'd be more fitting with Tzeentch, and we wouldn't get as many misinformed people saying things like "But the Chosen has to be big because Tzeentch makes them big to be good at fighting!!", but the one we have looks pretty good and fits well with the Choas Warrior look, which is what they were going for.

[Boulvae]

Now to mention the possibilities of getting two heads, and other strange mutations that just don't fit like a leg coming out of our inner cheek or something. OR we could be looking similar to the two-faced tree branch sprouting screecher of a monster from Mark of Chaos trailer.

But alas, the iconic look of a general chaos warrior will do, even though it doesn't seem to fit, it puts a change to the change since it breaks the Tzeentchian "norm" quite a bit.

[Foofmonger]

The only thing I want to contest is when someone said "marauders can only mutate their arm".

This is not true. Their three main combat mutations are arm based, but expect to have a few non-arm mutations as well.

[Taurth]

The only thing I want to contest is when someone said "marauders can only mutate their arm".

This is not true. Their three main combat mutations are arm based, but expect to have a few non-arm mutations as well.
Thats correct, but the point of the person you quoted was right. Using the excuse "If female Marauders were in they'd mutate their boobs and everything" or whatever was said, is pretty stupid. No they wouldn't, because you wouldn't make them able to mutate their boobs. Its like saying "You can't have male Marauders, because their penis's would mutate to obscene proportions and that isn't going to happen due to a T rating".

[Lucrece]

What annoys me is that Mythic feels that they have to differentiate females and males down to a degree where females need to look as if they came out from a Playboy spread.

Women with muscle or not being traditionally feminine, to them= ewww, no visual appeal for me to stare at. This is beyond absurd and reductive of what a female actually is. It is pitiful that females are only considered according to feminine looks instead of being mixed the the career's holistic feel.

I mean, for goodness's sake, there are plenty of female careers whose asses you can stare at if all you crave is and . Would it kill them to incorporate females whose merit transcends the quality of easily being sexually objectified?

I am rather disappointed with Mythic's narrow-minded view of what a female is.

[Boulvae]

Have you seen Dwarfen females? Have you seen Human females? I don't know about you but alot of those female models are VERY good. They arn't portrayed as hour glass bodied vixens but they are portrayed as what they should be as far as their atempts at doing so far has shown. Sides those Dwarfen females, I love 'em.

[Lucrece]

Have you seen Dwarfen females? Have you seen Human females? I don't know about you but alot of those female models are VERY good. They arn't portrayed as hour glass bodied vixens but they are portrayed as what they should be as far as their atempts at doing so far has shown. Sides those Dwarfen females, I love 'em.

Besides Dwarven females, all other females have ideal body shapes. The same does not apply for most males.

But, yeah, I agree, Dawi women were done well.

[Boulvae]

You havn't compared them to other female models have you? Sure their IDEAL in a sense BUT they don't have the hour glass body that became the quick norm arnoud fantasy's, like Conan the Barbarian world almost ALL of them are hour glass bodied big breasted woman, but they (WAR models) look nice and theres nothing wrong with that. The best example is the female Warrior Priest, if what you said was true then she wouldn't look like that.

[Lucrece]

You havn't compared them to other female models have you? Sure their IDEAL in a sense BUT they don't have the hour glass body that became the quick norm arnoud fantasy's, like Conan the Barbarian world almost ALL of them are hour glass bodied big breasted woman, but they (WAR models) look nice and theres nothing wrong with that. The best example is the female Warrior Priest, if what you said was true then she wouldn't look like that.

I have compared them just fine.

A heavily trained female in melee would still not have the physique shown in any of the females. It's just a matter of making them visually appealing so that the male audience, the majority, doesn't go "ewww, bodybuilder women! Whose am I supposed to stare at when I roll one now? /wrists".

[Boulvae]

Wrong it is to be appealing to BOTH sexes if either chooses to play it, and these are casual gamers were talking about here.

They don't have big breasts, actually normal as far as it goes, their face isn't pretty pretty, but it doesn't look ugly either, their body ISN'T an hour glass, and to top it off they actually look more normal then any i've ever seen. For WP their armour isn't chainmail + bikini, for the Archmage those robes DO cover up their body aswell, only ones that have a semi bikiness is the zealots but thats because the male zealots are have naked aswell. The Dark Elves have their iconic look for females (the way Sorceresses and Witch Elves), but the look for the Sorcerers doesn't give off the exact same vibe, a similar vibe but different none the less.

AND AGAIN, a CASUAL gamer ussually likes to play a nice looking but not horrifically ugly class as the norm, this goes for Woman and Men equally so i'd say it's good. Don't ever forget that this is a fantasy game so considering they look ALOT normal then other female models of other fantasy's.

[Lucrece]

Wrong it is to be appealing to BOTH sexes if either chooses to play it, and these are casual gamers were talking about here.

They don't have big breasts, actually normal as far as it goes, their face isn't pretty pretty, but it doesn't look ugly either, their body ISN'T an hour glass, and to top it off they actually look more normal then any i've ever seen. For WP their armour isn't chainmail + bikini, for the Archmage those robes DO cover up their body aswell, only ones that have a semi bikiness is the zealots but thats because the male zealots are have naked aswell. The Dark Elves have their iconic look for females (the way Sorceresses and Witch Elves), but the look for the Sorcerers doesn't give off the exact same vibe, a similar vibe but different none the less.

AND AGAIN, a CASUAL gamer ussually likes to play a nice looking but not horrifically ugly class as the norm, this goes for Woman and Men equally so i'd say it's good. Don't ever forget that this is a fantasy game so considering they look ALOT normal then other female models of other fantasy's.

And who are you to judge what people ought to find appealing or not?

What I've been saying is that the females in these game have been conveniently feminized despite the fact that they're engaging in roles that would not bear a feminine body.

What they've done to gemale WP's and and other melee females would be akin to putting a a skinny, typical 20 year old, skater-built man as a blood-thirsty warrior: It does not match. Female melee would normally be toned, and you would be able to see their muscular development. Obviously, this is not the case in order to serve some superficial needs from some audience that values sex appeal over practicality in women.

Just because that's a majority position doesn't mean it's correct.

[Boulvae]

And who are you to judge what people ought to find appealing or not?


The same can be said for you to. I said it, because if the human female models were made on real pointless purpose to look "slutty" then it'd be appealing to strictly the male audience (that does play them for that reason). But no they don't look "slutty" at all, but instead they look JUST nice thus, it can safely assumed that it's meant to appeal to both sexes. Wether or not it fits depends, i'm biting my lips that theirs WP females.

[Lucrece]

The same can be said for you to. I said it, because if the human female models were made on real pointless purpose to look "slutty" then it'd be appealing to strictly the male audience (that does play them for that reason). But no they don't look "slutty" at all, but instead they look JUST nice thus, it can safely assumed that it's meant to appeal to both sexes. Wether or not it fits depends, i'm biting my lips that theirs WP females.

While the same can be applied in my case, I never said that one particular look would be the one to take, or that based on audience X, look Y (which coincidentally derives from my opinion) is appropriate. You, on the other hand, did.

As for the slutty comment, you took it out of context. I was merely referring to the apparent tendency on Destruction side women. That is, the "bad" women. How do women express their "badassness" according to Mythic? Right, they're portrayed as vixens; unlike the men, which are postrayaed as "badass" through their toughness, a quality that is indeed relevant to, you know it, combatants!

There is a clear pattern established in the concept art between tough men and tough women in the design of classes, the more tame and fair ones generally being on the Order side. But the Destruction side gets screwed over.

[Boulvae]

While the same can be applied in my case, I never said that one particular look would be the one to take, or that based on audience X, look Y (which coincidentally derives from my opinion) is appropriate. You, on the other hand, did.

I think you misread me, but whatever, I concede.

As for the slutty comment, you took it out of context. I was merely referring to the apparent tendency on Destruction side women. That is, the "bad" women. How do women express their "badassness" according to Mythic? Right, they're portrayed as vixens; unlike the men, which are postrayaed as "badass" through their toughness, a quality that is indeed relevant to, you know it, combatants!

I am starting to better see your point, your right but their image is better then most other fantasy's images of "vixens".

There is a clear pattern established in the concept art between tough men and tough women in the design of classes, the more tame and fair ones generally being on the Order side. But the Destruction side gets screwed over.

Not necessarily, those Witch Elves may look like that but fon't be fooled...

[Lucrece]

I think you misread me, but whatever, I concede.

I think maybe we both have. Luckily, it seems we're being able to better clarify our points.

I am starting to better see your point, your right but their image is better then most other fantasy's images of "vixens".


True. Then again, maybe I don't just want "better". Maybe I want a break from this silly pattern and think that Mythic is perfectly qualified to do so, not to mention that I think WAR provides a perfect setting for such a break.

Not necessarily, those Witch Elves may look like that but fon't be fooled...

Personally, I love WE's. Why? Because they are a bunch of savages, like a carnivorous trapping plant. If you look at some older concept art, they are actually muscular, and besides some few images, they are not necessarily voluptuous.

I'm not against something being sexy. If you read through most of my posts, you'll actually see that I advocate some sexiness, more evidently for men.

However, what bothers me is when the concept of sex appeal is put on before the quality that should truly make each career iconic.

For WE's, that is drugged up, zealous savagery. For Chosen, it's their imposing presence that is granted through divine favor. For marauders, it's the mutating chaos they represent in their barbaric culture.

Reducing some character to mere sex appeal, in my opinion, doesn't do it much justice.

This is why I argue against excluding female marauders and chosen on the basis that they're inherently masculine.

Females NEED NOT be feminine to be females. This narrow-minded view needs to be done away with.

[Boulvae]

I full heartedly agree, but so far there hasn't been many REAL non-stereotyped "feminism" for examples for female Chosen and Mauraders.

I am against having female Chosen strictly because they'd basically both would be the same, unless you make the female Chosen "un"chosen because of their iconic look. They should've just never let the helmet be taken off and then you'd never have to worry about it because then you'd never truelly tell the difference.

[Ralzar]

I am against having female Chosen strictly because they'd basically both would be the same, unless you make the female Chosen "un"chosen because of their iconic look. They should've just never let the helmet be taken off and then you'd never have to worry about it because then you'd never truelly tell the difference.

And that would honestly be good enough. The Chosen is a big heap of metal. Wether the person inside is male or female (or even still have a sex) wouldn't make much difference.
They might as well just trow some female faces on the chosen body and you have female chosen. Or, just not allow them to ever show their face and have them sexless.

[Zzulu]

In cases like the Chosen and the Marauder, we felt that it would be inappropriate for our game to try and develop female versions of these careers. We needed them both to be physically terrifying, even at low levels without any armor on. The absurd bodily proportions necessary to achieve that can work on a male model, as it simply makes them look freakishly huge and intimidating. On a female model, however, they just looked awkward and unpleasant.Mythics words. Apparently females look 'awkward' and 'unpleasant' in a bad way while the male marauders look 'freakish' and 'intimidating' in a good way instead.

Interesting

[Doc Lumbago]

Mythics words. Apparently females look 'awkward' and 'unpleasant' in a bad way while the male marauders look 'freakish' and 'intimidating' in a good way instead.

Interesting

Oh there is the old gender discussion again and I´m SURE ANYONE is just waiting for
my opinion.

Ready?

My opinion:
Witch Elf: female-LORE

Sorceress:don´t care -there ARE Sorcerers, and I don´t have to play one, right?
I just think the design of him is rather dull.

Black Guard/Chosen: completely undestandable:they are full-iron-clad large bulks
much too clumsy for a female class. Just adding t...ties on the armour ends up in a Valkyre-Terminatrix Look. Naaahhhhh ....

Marauder: Damn Damn Damn Damn!
I would have LOVED to play a foul-mouthed, greasy-haired, tattoed amazone

[Kharlene]

Black Guard/Chosen: completely undestandable:they are full-iron-clad large bulks
much too clumsy for a female class. Just adding t...ties on the armour ends up in a Valkyre-Terminatrix Look. Naaahhhhh ....

I guess you never looked at the KotBS or Warrior Priest here... Or ever saw the game DAoC where the are plenty of female tanks in full plate armor... ironically enough... made by Mythic... Which is part of the reason why it's not that Mythic can't do it, it's just they do not want to do it because as they pretty much said in their own words, they look 'icky', so to speak... Lastly, it hasn't been said that the BG will be male-only, and there is nothing in the official "lore" that says there cannot be, but if does become male-only that means for Destruction side there will be no female tank class, or a tank class that allows female PCs, I should say, which is even more ironic given by WH's own "lore" out of either of the two sides, Destruction would be the one to have them, yet for each Order tank class their are female PCs... this is where the problem lies - there is zero balance for either of the two sides PC creation wise...

[kharnage]

Not being an artist :sad: I can't say how hard it would be to make a female BlackGuard. It's been said plenty of times that it is nearly impossible to make a decent female chosen. Hopefully they can make a female BlackGuard work.

I'm not "annoyed" by the limitations of the game. Ever since Khorne was excluded from being playable I've been able to deal with what's going on with the game. I just understand the game can't be everything to everyone.

[Courache]

I gave up on reading this whole thread after page 3, so I'm going to go ahead and sum up my opinion on the male/female class debate.

Dwarfs:
Oh no, gender equivalency! "It's not a dwarf if it don't have a beard!" Not like anyone will play the female ones anyhow. Moving on...

Empire:
The Sisters of Sigmar are a sect of Sigmarites who are often (if not always) struck blind, and have a second sight granted by Sigmar's blessings. Look it up. Don't give me the "no female warrior priests" deal.
As for Witch Hunters, I can picture a female witch hunter just as much as a male one. Granted, it would be tougher, considering that witches themselves are generalized as female. However, a witch hunter knows better, for they know that evil can hide behind any guise. Am I right?
The other two classes have no quarrels with females in their ranks according to the lore, as far as I know.

High Elves:
No debate here. NEXT.

Greenskins:
There are no females. Period. The closest would be a malformed orc with saggy pectorals. NEXT.

Chaos:
It's my personal opinion that Chosen should remain solely male (since Chosen don't care about their gender, in the end. Coincidentally, I don't care about their gender either). I don't really have a basis for this. They seem genderless, to me. Like robots.
As for marauders, however, I can picture burly north-women going berserk in a bloody frenzy just as much as a northman. Which will hurt more? The muscly-armed marauder with a giant claw for an arm, or the muscly-armed marauder with a giant claw for an arm and a pair of breasts?
I just don't see a reason to deny the existance of female marauders. I mean... some of the craziest people I know are women.

Dark Elves:
Ooh, spicy lore trivia and semi-matriarchal society. Personally, I think they should go the same way as their goody-two-shoes cousins and have both genders for every class, minus the Witch Elf.

[Lord Tareq]

I don't quite understand why they didn't make a female Marauder, absolutely no reason not to, unless they say they want to follow the viking-image in detail, and thus only allow the men to fight in invasions.
For the chosen I can understand, since their armor is fused onto them, the original form of their body is no longer relevant. I believe a female and a male chosen would look exactly the same, their flesh remade by their god, thus no point in making that distinction.

[Oxygen.]

Important matters should always be handled first.

So, this thread comes right after ''Which icon should we use for the game?''

Who cares.

[Zzulu]

That was quite a dumb post. You're posting in a 15 page thread on the subject asking "who cares lol". Brilliant move. Especially since so many people "care" that Mythic had to reevaluate their stance on the subject.

:rolleyes:

[Taurth]

That was quite a dumb post. You're posting in a 15 page thread on the subject asking "who cares lol". Brilliant move. Especially since so many people "care" that Mythic had to reevaluate their stance on the subject.

:rolleyes:
Well we don't really know if they are going to change anything yet.

[Zzulu]

Point was that they understood that there was a demand and gave it thought, which means that there are people who care, obviously :)

[Noli me Tangere]

The main problem now, as with the discussions back then is that the proof of existence was always in the lore and was sited by people within this very community. Some here may recall, and can still search out, the old threads in which very real, and very IP supported art pieces depicted female Chosen.

Here's the thing. The female Chosen looked powerful, and cool. It didn't look ugly or grotesque, though I must admit that my idea of cool, and neat looking may be quite different from anyone else's.

-

So, getting of the proof of whether they're in the lore issue, which the community has run around countless times long before now - let's get to the real issue.

Will Mythic allow female Marauders and Chosen?

The current answer seems to be a firm "No," with occasional hopes for change by some, and agreement (with Mythic's decision) by others that it's fine as is.

-

The end result being.. two single gender classes in chaos, no gender options in orcs (as it should be), and one single gender class in the dark elves.. while, currently order has no gender restrictions at all. This is not as it is in the lore, as humans, dwarves, and elves all have their own gender restrictions. Most notably dwarves (again, this has been covered, it's old news).


But what's in the lore is not what's in the game. At this point, no one should expect that. Still, I feel that the single gender classes should be reduced on the destruction side. Given that orcs, all on their own, have absolutely no options.. there's no "balancing" reason to restrict other classes beyond what is sensible.

The Witch Elf makes sense as a single gender class, they are a single gender class. However, Chosen never made sense. The female Chosen mentioned in the lore are few, but never is it said that there are few - only those represented are few. In contrast male sorcerers are far more of an oddity. I believe balance can be gained by allowed bi-gender classes of either the chosen or the marauder. I don't really care which. However, given the options, I'd say the chosen should be the one, as I don't have to look very far at all to find female chosen examples and art.

Beyond that, DPS classes tend to be a dime a dozen, tanks tend to be much harder to find. The more restricted they are.. the worse that problem is. For that reason, I have a general feeling that restrictions should be left off classes that are hard to get people to play anyways - finding support and tank classes are always the hardest challenges outside of a guild group. I feel for the people that have to pug it, and see no reason to make it even harder for them to find a group via choices that they could undo, and change, if they wished, as they (Mythic)'ve already presented just how readily willing they are to change to the Lore to suit the Game.

That's all. In the end.. it matters about as much as a single grain of sand on the beach, though, that doesn't change my (or anyone's) personal preferences on the supposed issue(s).

-

My current, overall, opinion still comes down to what it did back then: "I think everyone that likes options would suffer from further gender restriction. Regardless of their own gender." And, in the end, all I can say is that I simply hope for more options.

[Oxygen.]

Point was that they understood that there was a demand and gave it thought, which means that there are people who care, obviously :)

Yesterday at the restaurant, I heard two couple discussing about cheeseburgers. They did it for the whole hour I was there. It was important to them, apparently, but how insignificant anyhow?

My point is, I'm pretty sure that mythics has much more to worry about right now... An example would be WoW's balance. Or again, WoW's lack of originality within classes. See what I mean? You guys made a 8 (?) page long thread about females while there would be much more to do with those pages :(

[Taurth]

Yesterday at the restaurant, I heard two couple discussing about cheeseburgers. They did it for the whole hour I was there. It was important to them, apparently, but how insignificant anyhow?

My point is, I'm pretty sure that mythics has much more to worry about right now... An example would be WoW's balance. Or again, WoW's lack of originality within classes. See what I mean? You guys made a 8 (?) page long thread about females while there would be much more to do with those pages :(So basically you feel its insignificant, so despite all these people complaining about this issue, Mythic shouldn't take any notice?

Anyway, I think a good question for the Dev Chat on Wednesday would be:

"Are there any plans to remove the current gender restrictions on the Chosen and Marauder, as many poeple feel the lore didn't justify it and there are too many gender restrictions on Destruction already."

[Irtehdar]

Not being able to play a female Marauder is abit of a turn off for me. I had a (to me) very cool idea of the character I want to roll. A woman obviously who happens to be a marauder. Including male sorceresses (if your a dark elf and use magic your a sorceress. deal with it) but refusing to make women who is not a stereotypical eyecandy is just lame IMO.
I wanted a 7ft tall woman who was pure muscle and scars who turns into an arglebargle before a fight. An in your face combat monster who happens to not have a doodle.

I guess the world is just not ready to see women who strays from the ''professional dancer'' look.

[Bhanqwa]

Not being able to play a female Marauder is abit of a turn off for me. I had a (to me) very cool idea of the character I want to roll. A woman obviously who happens to be a marauder. Including male sorceresses (if your a dark elf and use magic your a sorceress. deal with it) but refusing to make women who is not a stereotypical eyecandy is just lame IMO.
I wanted a 7ft tall woman who was pure muscle and scars who turns into an arglebargle before a fight. An in your face combat monster who happens to not have a doodle.

I guess the world is just not ready to see women who strays from the ''professional dancer'' look.

If you wanna play her as a female, go to a roleplayserver and play her as exactly that.:cool:

[Ralzar]

If you wanna play her as a female, go to a roleplayserver and play her as exactly that.:cool:

The Marauder avatar isn't going to be any more female because you're on an RP server.

[Bhanqwa]

when a real life woman get's that buffed she won't look any more female either.

[Gemini]

when a real life woman get's that buffed she won't look any more female either.

Oh man, you are so wrong. Clearly you don't associate yourself with female rugby players... Some the buffest, hottest, most feminine girls I've ever met.

[Bhanqwa]

Oh man, you are so wrong. Clearly you don't associate yourself with female rugby players... Some the buffest, hottest, most feminine girls I've ever met.

I've not seen those women so you could be right that they look good, but... the marauder I saw on youtube (the one which hit the practice dummy with all 3 weapons) was buffed to a sick degree, and the few women I've seen that have gotten anywhere close to that muscular were not very feminine in appearance.

[Taurth]

http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/39759/2003483232369977070_rs.jpg

[Myling]

http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/39759/2003483232369977070_rs.jpg

I wonder how she applies lipstick with only one hand. :rolleyes:

[Gemini]

I wonder how she applies lipstick with only one hand. :rolleyes:

Puts down her weapon :P

[Ralzar]

I wonder how she applies lipstick with only one hand. :rolleyes:

You normally use two hands to put on lipstick?

[Boulvae]

Yes one for the application, the other for the mirror. Some lipsticks actually require you to twist it out like a glue stick, and that requires two hands.

[Gaazruk]

Warhammer Online is a different time line than the Warhammer series i.e.

The prophecy told to malekith never happened. So its perfectly fine for male sorcs.

Who knows maybe in this warped reality all the chaos gods are sexist so we can only have male chosen and male marauders. :rolleyes:

[Bhanqwa]

Yes one for the application, the other for the mirror. Some lipsticks actually require you to twist it out like a glue stick, and that requires two hands.

Actually all it takes is 2 fingers to do the twisting, with the rest of your hand for grip.

[Boulvae]

Who knows maybe in this warped reality all the chaos gods are sexist so we can only have male chosen and male marauders.

The day Slaanesh is sexist is the day Nurgle starts making his followers feel happy, and they all stop being a bunch depressed piles of bloated flesh stuffed with wastes.

[Eljewster]

I wonder how she applies lipstick with only one hand. :rolleyes:

she doesn't use lipstick per say, remember shes insane

simply cut along the lip, smear, great success

[Kharlene]

The day Slaanesh is sexist is the day Nurgle starts making his followers feel happy, and they all stop being a bunch depressed piles of bloated flesh stuffed with wastes.

Slaanesh, no. But Tzeentch apparently is. :rolleyes:

Side note: Any girl not mention woman worth their salt can apply lipstick with one hand and not require use of a mirror, fyi. ;)

Extra side note: My sister was on the varsity rugby team for our high school, she's only 5'3" and then and to this day she scarcely weighs a hundred pounds even, but she was one of the best kickers and was the best tackler on the team, without question, able to drop even 200+ lbs. guys, not to mention the heavy set girls, with ease - relying on her very fast sprinting speeds to nail their hips and thighs taking their feet right out from under them. Not everything has to come down to size. :mrgreen:

[Rilien]

I think it all comes to opportunity cost.

Is the opportunity(amount of happy players) worth the cost(developement time) to make female chosen and marauders.


Simply put, would enough people want to play female chosen and marauders that the time it would take be worth it?

[Aviator]

I think it all comes to opportunity cost.

Is the opportunity(amount of happy players) worth the cost(developement time) to make female chosen and marauders.


Simply put, would enough people want to play female chosen and marauders that the time it would take be worth it?
Seems like a lazy excuse to cut corners IMO. Very few people are going to play female Dwarves, why bother adding them?

[kharnage]

Seems like a lazy excuse to cut corners IMO. Very few people are going to play female Dwarves, why bother adding them?

Dwarfs are going to struggle vs Orcs already. They can use every last person playing them. Even the tiny number of people who will play female dwarfs.

IMO they should have left dwarfs male only too.

[Chad Ghostal]

I always pictured chaos as hulking viking like warriors. Having dainty WoW like female warriors just makes me laugh. If playing a female is your motive then there are plenty of classes to do that. I have no problem with female only classes and male only classes, and feel they should stay that way. Play the class for the class, not for pixel boobs.

[Kharlene]

I always pictured chaos as hulking viking like warriors. Having dainty WoW like female warriors just makes me laugh. If playing a female is your motive then there are plenty of classes to do that. I have no problem with female only classes and male only classes, and feel they should stay that way. Play the class for the class, not for pixel boobs.

Then you obviously never read anything that has been said in this thread, and even less about the Vikings themselves. Are you aware in Viking culture that by the time you were a teenager, regardless whether you a boy or girl, it was expected of you to have mastered wielding a weapon in combat? Now that aside, as it stands so far there is the large issue of character balance, because on the Destruction side, currently, there are not plenty of classes for people to choose from when playing female. So far there is only one class that an individual can play a female melee class on Destruction side, and zero tank classes that a player can choose to be female on Destruction side, unless the BG indeed proves to allow both genders. And again, to beat a dead horse, but only because it hasn't sunk in to the skulls of those who just enter the thread, if any of the races on Destruction side were to have a female tank and melee dps class, it would be Chaos do to it being the most gender inclusive race next to the Elves, both of which are supported by its own "lore", that's a significant part of what sparked this whole thing in the first place. But then look to the side of Order, which is very gender restrictive "lore"-wise, there are none, thus making it even more mind-boggling why Destruction has been so restricted for silly, highly-superficial reasoning.

[Chad Ghostal]

Are you even aware the word Viking came from the norse word "Vikingar" which is exclusively applied to men? Women may have accompanied them, but they mostly ran the settlements, and if their husband have died they assumed their role of power. They can be taught to defend themselves, but thats about as far as it went.

If you want to play a tank, then play a tank. If you want to play a female class, then there are ones to choose from. It seems you're more interested in playing a female then playing the class itself which is as you put it "mind-boggling".

For whatever reason they left it out, my guess would be the lack of people picking one for the amount of effort needed to go and create one. At the end of the day GW has to approve whatever they do, and they the folks who made the game, saw it fine to make these careers gender specific.

[kharnage]

Are you even aware the word Viking came from the norse word "Vikingar" which is exclusively applied to men? Women may have accompanied them, but they mostly ran the settlements, and if their husband have died they assumed their role of power. They can be taught to defend themselves, but thats about as far as it went.

If you want to play a tank, then play a tank. If you want to play a female class, then there are ones to choose from. It seems you're more interested in playing a female then playing the class itself which is as you put it "mind-boggling".

For whatever reason they left it out, my guess would be the lack of people picking one for the amount of effort needed to go and create one. At the end of the day GW has to approve whatever they do, and they the folks who made the game, saw it fine to make these careers gender specific.

Most people are NOT aware of history. Especially now. History is changed to make it more inclusive, getting a lot of revisionist makeovers.

Some people are real upset that the Evil side has sex restrictions. You have a few geniuses asking about male WE and female orcs (even though they actually know better), but most of the angst is directed at the two Chaos classes. It was really entertaining to watch the gnashing of teeth:p!! It does get old, but some people are very passionate about it, and there isn't a whole lot to do until the game comes out. The reasons Mythic gave made perfect sense to many (about making the avatars and the rarity of females in those classes) but some didn't like it. Of the ones that didn't get it, some could let it go, others couldn't. It's not a big deal to let them vent. Heck, I have to restrain myself from starting threads about not being able to play a Khorne Warrior! It's only that I know how irritating it is to see subjects like that vomitted onto the forums that stops me. One funny sidebar is that people complain that in the fluff female dwarf adventurers, Human female Knights, etc don't exists, so allowing them but having the two chaos classes sex restricted doesn't make sense. I wonder what would happen if Mythic said "You're right" and got rid of female dwarfs and knights:p?

Anyway, the classes will be wildly popular and the vast majority of people won't wonder why the Chosen and Marauders are male only. It just goes with the image.

BTW, check out this.

http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2007/06/15/things-we-never-want-to-hear-again/

Especially number 6. It sort of speaks to some of the things in the thread.

[Chad Ghostal]

I cry myself to sleep at night, because there isn't a khorne warrior heh. Those made me laugh at some of those points on that link. At the end of the day folks it's just a game, just enjoy it.

[kharnage]

I cry myself to sleep at night, because there isn't a khorne warrior heh. Those made me laugh at some of those points on that link. At the end of the day folks it's just a game, just enjoy it.

Check this out:
Back in earlt-mid 2006 2 girls were so upset at the lack of female models that they said they were done with WAR!!! They called GW/Mythic every horrible name in the book (Sexists, etc -- the usual rubbish) and said they would never play the game or follow it. Never mind that there were not many models of anyone, much less females. There was female concept art, but Mythic/GW wasn't fast enough for them.

My point in the above was that you are correct -- it's just a game. It's not something people should let control thier life. People freak out about just about anything. I learned real quick thier are many different kinds of people on this site!

Makes it interesting!!!!!!!!

[Lesane]

Marauders are male vikings slaughtering in favor of their chaos god. They are males. Female Marauders is absurd.

About Chosens, don't know where they originate from so can't comment on that.

[Taurth]

Check this out:
Back in earlt-mid 2006 2 girls were so upset at the lack of female models that they said they were done with WAR!!! They called GW/Mythic every horrible name in the book (Sexists, etc -- the usual rubbish) and said they would never play the game or follow it. Never mind that there were not many models of anyone, much less females. There was female concept art, but Mythic/GW wasn't fast enough for them.

My point in the above was that you are correct -- it's just a game. It's not something people should let control thier life. People freak out about just about anything. I learned real quick thier are many different kinds of people on this site!

Makes it interesting!!!!!!!!The point that its just a game is valid I suppose. But theres many reasons why people would like to see female Marauders and/or Chosen. Misrepresenting the lore, Not allowing people to play a female Marauder or Chosen for no good reason. I think the most reasonable point is the fact that it'll drive a fair amount people away from Destruction, as many females may prefer to play a female class that isn't a bikini clad Elf forcing them to roll Order, and this may lead them to bring their partners over to Order aswell because, they'll want to play together - this is quite a big issue, considering Destruction will likely have a smaller population than Order withought this issue.

Marauders are male vikings slaughtering in favor of their chaos god. They are males. Female Marauders is absurd.

About Chosens, don't know where they originate from so can't comment on that.Theres lore that states otherwise, from Gotrek and Felix having a female Champion of Khorne, to WHFRP stating they can be both male and female. Other classes/races on Order, such as Dwarfs, Warrior Priests and Knights either are stated as not having any females in their ranks, or just not mentioned atall. Why should the exception be made for them but not the Chosen or Marauder when they even have lore in favour of them?

[Lucrece]

The point that its just a game is valid I suppose. But theres many reasons why people would like to see female Marauders and/or Chosen. Misrepresenting the lore, Not allowing people to play a female Marauder or Chosen for no good reason. I think the most reasonable point is the fact that it'll drive a fair amount people away from Destruction, as many females may prefer to play a female class that isn't a bikini clad Elf forcing them to roll Order, and this may lead them to bring their partners over to Order aswell because, they'll want to play together - this is quite a big issue, considering Destruction will likely have a smaller population than Order withought this issue.

Theres lore that states otherwise, from Gotrek and Felix having a female Champion of Khorne, to WHFRP stating they can be both male and female. Other classes/races on Order, such as Dwarfs, Warrior Priests and Knights either are stated as not having any females in their ranks, or just not mentioned atall. Why should the exception be made for them but not the Chosen or Marauder when they even have lore in favour of them?

Because whatever you or other minorities say is "usual rubbish", definitely.:roll:

[Kharlene]

Are you even aware the word Viking came from the norse word "Vikingar" which is exclusively applied to men? Women may have accompanied them, but they mostly ran the settlements, and if their husband have died they assumed their role of power. They can be taught to defend themselves, but thats about as far as it went.

If you want to play a tank, then play a tank. If you want to play a female class, then there are ones to choose from. It seems you're more interested in playing a female then playing the class itself which is as you put it "mind-boggling".

For whatever reason they left it out, my guess would be the lack of people picking one for the amount of effort needed to go and create one. At the end of the day GW has to approve whatever they do, and they the folks who made the game, saw it fine to make these careers gender specific.

I'm interested in playing female, because just like you guys say you like to play your own gender, I as a female, enjoy doing the same - go figure, huh? And did you see me state anything contrary about the Vikings that you just stated? Did you? I only ask because take note I only made mention of specifically of both genders learning mastery of a weapon for those very reasons. But what it shows is that their women are competent warriors as well.

And they said why they left them out of those two classes out, it's because they (Mythic) stated specifically they (the female Marauders/Chosen) looked "awkward" and not intimidating enough. Which in a way is basically saying that they don't think their concept artists can design intimidating looking women... Interesting, no?... If you're going to comment on these things, look them up first.

[Chad Ghostal]

Where do you get your history from? No they were not warriors, the men of the society were. Could they defend themselves? Yes they could. Did they raid with them? No they did not. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and to top it off it isn't even right.

Like I said at the end of the day GW has to approve of what they do, so feel free to complain to the creators that they're wrong. There's no conspiracy theory out there, they didn't like how it looked from a design stand point, and decided not to do it simple as that. Thanks for snobby "bet you didn't know that" information that was already known, but randomly interjected in there as some one up type thing, but feel free to once again read that above comment I underlined this time.