Choppa Masteries [Archive] - Warhammer Forums

Vidrak

12-05-2007, 12:28 PM

I would go with these 3:

1) Berserking - Extra abilities and enhancements to abilities that are used when berserking. Such as extending the duration, or doing more damage. Would enhance damage mostly, and make the Choppa more powerful when in berserking mode.

2) Combat Specializations - Enhances abilities and grants new ones for "normal" combat (aka, not berserking). Such as enhancing stuns/positional attacks. As well as ranged throws, weapon skills and overall damage/duration of attacks and debuffs. This would allow the class to have more tricks up their sleeve, as well as being a better overall fighter.

3) Defensive - This would enhance more of the defensive traits of the Choppa. Like toughness, or increasing the damage mitigation when berzerking or against certain damage types. This would allow the class to "off-tank" more or less, or overall be more survivable in PvP.

Just my ideas :)

Foofmonger

12-05-2007, 12:39 PM

more tricks up their sleeve, as well as being a better overall fighter.

3) Defensive - This would enhance more of the defensive traits of the Choppa. Like toughness, or increasing the damage mitigation when berzerking or against certain damage types. This would allow the class to "off-tank" more or less, or overall be more survivable in PvP.

Just my ideas :)

I really hope there are no "defensive" trees for meele dps classes. Considering that a meele DPS's role is to do damage, and not take it, I think it would be horrible way to make psuedo-tanks. Choppas should not be offtanking, they should be going bezerk and chopping things to bits.

Vidrak

12-05-2007, 01:04 PM

I really hope there are no "defensive" trees for meele dps classes. Considering that a meele DPS's role is to do damage, and not take it, I think it would be horrible way to make psuedo-tanks. Choppas should not be offtanking, they should be going bezerk and chopping things to bits.
We shall see. I guess instead of defensive, I guess I mean more durability.

You HAVE to be durable in PvP. So I see nothing wrong with a mastery tree for it. They definitely have tactics like, "Eye in the Sky" reduces all incoming ranged damage by x, or tactics that improve Toughness for example. While some of these are older abilites, I have seen them listed. Every class takes damage, and this will allow them to be more durable. I personally see this as part of all or most of the spec trees for classes.

Some of the skills lists I have seen include these abilities. So a way to enhance them would be useful. Personally, I think increasing my durability in PvP will be very useful, and I will most definitly put points in there. A DPS class is not just 100% DPS. That is like saying a Tank class won't have a DPS/Offensive tree. Of course it will, in fact, in the descriptions of the mastery system, this was revealed. Tanks do not get 100% tanking masteries ...

What is silly, is what you want ... tanks only getting tanking trees, healers only getting healing trees, DPS only getting DPS trees. Of the examples Mythic gave, the trees do not follow as you have said. And it would be pointless to have 3 trees that enchanced the same thing in different ways. Think specialization/mastery of tactics, not WoW talent trees.

A Choppa with specialization in Defense/durability/hardiness (or whatever it might be) does not mean it will "tank" like a Black Orc. In many games, melee classes can off-tank. In some unbalanced games DPS classes can out-tank tanks. It is the nature of a melee ranged class, you get hit by AOE's and attacks a lot more. Thus, they need to be more durable.

I guess I don't see the problem.

Foofmonger

12-05-2007, 01:20 PM

We shall see. I guess instead of defensive, I guess I mean more durability.

You HAVE to be durable in PvP. So I see nothing wrong with a mastery tree for it. They definitely have tactics like, "Eye in the Sky" reduces all incoming ranged damage by x, or tactics that improve Toughness for example. While some of these are older abilites, I have seen them listed. Every class takes damage, and this will allow them to be more durable. I personally see this as part of all or most of the spec trees for classes.

I don't think specific abilities that allow you to be more durable is a bad thing. I just don't think an entire path should be based on it.

Some of the skills lists I have seen include these abilities. So a way to enhance them would be useful. Personally, I think increasing my durability in PvP will be very useful, and I will most definitly put points in there. A DPS class is not just 100% DPS. That is like saying a Tank class won't have a DPS/Offensive tree. Of course it will, in fact, in the descriptions of the mastery system, this was revealed. Tanks do not get 100% tanking masteries ...
True, but all a tanks masteries are still based on tanking. The mastery system exists to further existing roles, and not to define new ones that the archetypes don't have. It stands to reason that the paths of DPS classes will all be oriented around doing dps.

What is silly, is what you want ... tanks only getting tanking trees, healers only getting healing trees, DPS only getting DPS trees. Of the examples Mythic gave, the trees do not follow as you have said. And it would be pointless to have 3 trees that enchanced the same thing in different ways. Think specialization/mastery of tactics, not WoW talent trees.I am the one thinking of specialization, and you are the one making this into WoW talent trees. Every path for a tank class should involve tanking, and every path for a support class should involve support. The opposite is WoWs talent trees, which you give the same class multiple different roles depending on what path they go down.

Of the examples Mythic gave, the paths (not trees) follow exactly what I have said. With the Swordmaster example, just because he goes down the offensive path doesn't turn him into a meele DPS. It is still a tanking path.

A Choppa with specialization in Defense/durability/hardiness (or whatever it might be) does not mean it will "tank" like a Black Orc. In many games, melee classes can off-tank. In some unbalanced games DPS classes can out-tank tanks. It is the nature of a melee ranged class, you get hit by AOE's and attacks a lot more. Thus, they need to be more durable.

I guess I don't see the problem.

I don't see it happening personally. I don't see it following the mastery system and it was is supposed to do, and I would bet money that there won't be "defense" paths for meele dps classes. It is likely that some paths will have some more durability oriented abilities, but to assume that the whole path will be based on such thing seems like nothing more then a longshot to me.

Krulltak

12-05-2007, 07:13 PM

Here would be my guesses.

1- Da Wildest 'un: Mastery to improve Berserkry and prolong duration.

2- Da Tuffest 'un: Mastery to improve durability.

3- Da Sneaky git: Mastery to improve positional and ranged attacks.

kratth

12-05-2007, 07:39 PM

naw, erez ow itz gunna be:

sum choppas gun uze one big choppa

den sum udda choppas gun use too choppas,

den dere gun be sum gitz wot call demselfs choppas in da corner dat we gunna laffs at.

AN DAT IS OW CHOPPAS GUNNA WORK.:mrgreen:

Mug elbbub

12-06-2007, 11:13 PM

Tree #1: Sustained upfront dmg
Tree #2: Crit based dmg and positional attacks
Tree #3: Berserker related upgrades.

Tree #1 will have stat upgrades and upgrades for base skills nothing super wow but useful none the less

Tree#2 will be about positional attacks adding to crit dmg, this tree will add a new skills perhaps and buff attacks used to gain position and do dmg from said position.

Tree #3 will be used to upgrade anything and everything related to berserking such as length how often it would be up and skills used while berserk.

The trees might have skills and upgrades that seem out of place but this will need to be done to balance the three out at least in the sense of equal numbers.

Well at least thats how i see it

Gloovish

12-06-2007, 11:45 PM

None of the suggestions sound choppaee enough.

Smashin'
Bashin'
Ragin'

SinnersDoom

12-07-2007, 10:08 AM

Maybe Weapon styles:

Two Handed Weapons Path.
Dual Wield Path.
Rage Path.

Blaze

12-07-2007, 11:02 AM

About Choppas having a defensive mastery, I think it would be appropriate.

But instead of thinking of it as a defensive specialisation, think of it as the way to make your Choppa Unstoppable.

This spec would grant extra abilities to break snares, immunities to certain things while berserking, perhaps allow the Choppa to get a boosts to HP or toughness or armor while berserking, passive abilities to make him really hard to stop and get away from.

Most Choppas will be insane damage dealers while berserking, ripping people to shreds forcing opponents to try and focus fire him or CC him before he does too much damage, making him a pain in the .
The defensive Choppa will be the unstoppable juggernaut who simply will not die until his berserker rage fades, forcing people to ignore him because there is no point trying to CC him or take him down until he clams down, making him a pain in the .

Two different ways to approach a berserking fury that could be equally viable but good for different siuations. I think that could be interesting to see.

Yvo

12-07-2007, 11:30 AM

I have no idea what they will be about, but I think it's safe to assume they will all involve "krumpin" of some sort.

Foofmonger

12-07-2007, 12:01 PM

About Choppas having a defensive mastery, I think it would be appropriate.

I do not.

But instead of thinking of it as a defensive specialisation, think of it as the way to make your Choppa Unstoppable.

That would be the same thing.

This spec would grant extra abilities to break snares, immunities to certain things while berserking, perhaps allow the Choppa to get a boosts to HP or toughness or armor while berserking, passive abilities to make him really hard to stop and get away from.
So it sounds like you want it to be completely overpowered and have nothing to do with the Choppas role (doing damage, not taking it). Giving them massive CC immunity and survivability boosts is a great way to completely overpower a DPS class.

Most Choppas will be insane damage dealers while berserking, ripping people to shreds forcing opponents to try and focus fire him or CC him before he does too much damage, making him a pain in the .
Hopefully, all choppas will be good damage dealers. Considering they are a DPS class.

The defensive Choppa will be the unstoppable juggernaut who simply will not die until his berserker rage fades, forcing people to ignore him because there is no point trying to CC him or take him down until he clams down, making him a pain in the .
Making him overpowered and not fun to fight? No thanks.

Blaze

12-07-2007, 12:24 PM

I do not.

That would be the same thing.

So it sounds like you want it to be completely overpowered and have nothing to do with the Choppas role (doing damage, not taking it). Giving them massive CC immunity and survivability boosts is a great way to completely overpower a DPS class.

Hopefully, all choppas will be good damage dealers. Considering they are a DPS class.

Making him overpowered and not fun to fight? No thanks.

I think you mistook my attempt to make colorful descriptions as meaning I want an overpowered class. That might have been my bad I guess.

Allow me to summarise then. I am proposing that Choppas could spec for less damage but more utility. Sacrificing some of the damage they would gain from speccing offensively, by allowing them to instead spec in a way that compensates for some of the weaknesses I imagine they would have. This would not suddenly make them tanks, it would simply mean they could take more of a beating but deal less damage. They are still dps.

They are a melee class, so the enemy will do their best to prevent them from closing the distance. A offensively specced Choppa will have abilities that allow him to deal a crapton of damage once he gets into melee range, but a defensive Choppa would have more tools to actually get into melee range. Perhaps some snare/CC removal on a cooldown.

As a melee class with medium to light armor, they will fall without support in a group situation. An offensive Choppa will be able to deal more damage but go down faster and be potentially devastating with a dedicated healer, a defensively specced one would deal less damage but be able to stick in the fight longer and require less support.

There are generally two ways you can go with a character. You can improve on your strengths which in the case of the Choppa is offensive power, or you can compensate for your weaknesses to become more well rounded. In the case of the Choppa that would mean having more defensive options.

I can't think of any good analogies so I'll just use one from WoW. If you are a mage you spec fire to gain lots of offensive power but you don't really improve your survivability much. As frost spec you gain perhaps somewhat less offensive power, but you improve on a weak aspect of the class by getting more defensive options. In both cases you are a damage dealer, but you choose to either focus on your strengths or compensate for weaknesses, and both are viable, just different.

I don't see why the Choppa couldn't have similar options for career mastery.

Redrum772

12-07-2007, 01:21 PM

I would like to see these...

Positional Damage Tree

Direct Single Target Tree

AOE multiple Target Tree

Foofmonger

12-07-2007, 01:33 PM

I'm not against DPS classes like the Choppa getting more utility and defensive options. I just don't think that for a DPS class, there should be an entire path dedicated to such a thing.

Paths are about enhancing current roles in WAR, and not defining new ones (like WoW). A DPS class should have all of his paths focused on dealing damage in some way. I think spreading the defensive options/utility throughout all the paths is a much better idea then stacking one path full of them.

ungenius

12-07-2007, 01:50 PM

all 3 masteries:
WAAAGH!!

:P
although i'm sure the poster who said:
Smashin'
Bashin'
Ragin'
is probably pretty close to the mark :P

its like they said with the bright wizards trees, they would most likely be something like direct damage mastery, dot mastery (anything thats not dd thats single target), and an ae mastery, none of those point to a 'defensive' mastery, why would a choppa get that? they also aren't supposed to be ae masters, so it could be just as simple as slashin' bashin' and ragin' slashin would be for overall damage increasing via bleeds and other choppa bladed weapons, bashin' would be more for the dirty tactics and and such (still damage increasing but more relying on the choppas elbows head knees etc, and ragin for their berserk rage

anyway who knows, i don't think anyone is going to speculate even close, and even if you do its not like you'll be able to tell the tons of things IN that specific mastery.. better to just wait and find out :)

ungenius

12-07-2007, 01:51 PM

I think spreading the defensive options/utility throughout all the paths is a much better idea then stacking one path full of them.

i completely agree, and i'm hoping thats how it will be.

Vidrak

12-07-2007, 01:57 PM

I don't see it happening personally. I don't see it following the mastery system and it was is supposed to do, and I would bet money that there won't be "defense" paths for meele dps classes. It is likely that some paths will have some more durability oriented abilities, but to assume that the whole path will be based on such thing seems like nothing more then a longshot to me.
I will be severly dissapointed if the Orc Choppa class does not have a durability mastery. They are Orcs for Mork's sake! But durability options for this class will be needed.

As far as it being distributed across many trees. Maybe that is what it will be like more. But I don't know. From the beta update this week, that is kind of what it sounded like.

I just think DPS, AOEDPS and more DPS are kind of bland ideas for Masteries ... if they all are just DPS, what really are you mastering? Like Krulltak's ideas of masteries, those make sense for an Orc. They are more about being strong and tuff than anything else.

I mean, there could be more offensively oriented "durability" trees. Using say, knee breaks, or head buts to stun/slow down enemies. Or to debuff them so they are not laying down a major beat down on the Choppa. I would consider this defensive/durability oriented (enough though it is a very offensive style of defense).

I think you are taking the idea of "tanking and durability" a little too far in your mind. It will allow them to be mildly more defensive. Don't take it to the extreme of "Choppas are out-tanking Black Orcs, that is OP'd!" That is not what I want, not even close to what I want. But making them slightly more durable (and maybe sacraficing a small amount of DPS) just adds more to the class.

I just see most Greenskins having some sort of "We ar' Tuff!" lines for masteries. As they are one of the toughest races in the Warhammer world. There is not enough difference with mastery trees of "Single Target DPS", "AOE DPS" and "Positional DPS". It would be as stupid as a tank having "Defending with sword", "Defending with shield" and "Defending my group" ... or a healer with "Single Target Healing", "AOE Healing" and "Fast Healing" ... it is far, far, far too much of the same thing, IMO. I think the system could be much more diverse if this is the path Mythic is taking.

Foofmonger

12-07-2007, 02:48 PM

I don't really feel like arguing about Viddy at this point. I've made my points pretty clear.

I'm looking at it not from an "orcy" standpoint or having to do with the lore, but from a game mechanic standpoint. I could really care less about what they implement for Choppas.

I'm just saying how I think the most likely way Mythic will be going about doing this. And I just don't see them putting in durability paths for meele dps classes.

In my eyes, the mastery system in WAR enhances an archetypes given roles, it does NOT define new ones. The Choppas role in combat is not to be durable, and not to soak up damage. Thus, it stands to reason that they won't have a path based on this, because it does NOT revolve around specializing in one of their current roles.

While many people may want such a thing etc.. I just don't see it happening. If I'm wrong when the game comes out, then feel free to tell me I told you so. If when you start to hear things about the Choppas mastery paths, and there is nothing to do with "durability", then remember this post. :mrgreen:

Vidrak

12-07-2007, 03:13 PM

While many people may want such a thing etc.. I just don't see it happening. If I'm wrong when the game comes out, then feel free to tell me I told you so. If when you start to hear things about the Choppas mastery paths, and there is nothing to do with "durability", then remember this post. :mrgreen:
I could care less about who is right and who is wrong. So there is no way I will remember this post. I just like talking and debating about the design of the game.

But yes, in the end, we shall see how it all works out. I am sure it will be a fine system when it is all said and done no matter what path they take.

linuxnacrot

12-07-2007, 07:59 PM

I just think DPS, AOEDPS and more DPS are kind of bland ideas for Masteries ... if they all are just DPS, what really are you mastering? Like Krulltak's ideas of masteries, those make sense for an Orc. They are more about being strong and tuff than anything else.

You would be specializing in which way you want to deal damage.

However i do think that a tree partially, not fully, focused on a choppa's durability would be good.

Blaze

12-08-2007, 05:23 AM

In my eyes, the mastery system in WAR enhances an archetypes given roles, it does NOT define new ones. The Choppas role in combat is not to be durable, and not to soak up damage. Thus, it stands to reason that they won't have a path based on this, because it does NOT revolve around specializing in one of their current roles.

While many people may want such a thing etc.. I just don't see it happening. If I'm wrong when the game comes out, then feel free to tell me I told you so. If when you start to hear things about the Choppas mastery paths, and there is nothing to do with "durability", then remember this post. :mrgreen:

I see where you're coming from, and I'm sure it would be fine if they go the way you are suggesting.
But I'll comment on the part I have bolded in your post.

The way I see it, all paths will improve the Choppas damage in some way and grant offensive abilities, even a defensively oriented one. A more durable Choppa is still a damage dealer, just one that can stay in the fight longer and therefore dealing more damage before going down.
It's burst damage vs. sustained damage. In the long run it evens out, but they are good for different situations.

Foofmonger

12-08-2007, 12:18 PM

I see where you're coming from, and I'm sure it would be fine if they go the way you are suggesting.
But I'll comment on the part I have bolded in your post.

The way I see it, all paths will improve the Choppas damage in some way and grant offensive abilities, even a defensively oriented one. A more durable Choppa is still a damage dealer, just one that can stay in the fight longer and therefore dealing more damage before going down.
It's burst damage vs. sustained damage. In the long run it evens out, but they are good for different situations.

I agree. I just don't think a whole path will revolve around becoming more durable.

Also, I'd bet money on there being a burst/positional path and a sustained/frontload path.

I have a feeling a Choppas durability is going to come more from itemization/select abilities scattered throughout your three paths.

ChosenOne

12-08-2007, 01:36 PM

Foofmonger

12-08-2007, 01:55 PM

I have a question. Whats the difference with having durability skills be intermixed in three paths rather then having a path for them?

Do you think there shouldnt be enough durability skills to have its own path?

I think that regardless of path, all Choppas should have an option for increasing their durability if they want to.

I think its healthier for the class. With one path completely dedicated to durability, you only have two "proper" dps options as far as path goes. I'd rather have three "proper" dps paths, combined with various durability abilities/tactics that you can choose to put points into to buy scattered throughout them.

That way, regardless of mastery, you will have ways to specialize your character. Instead of being a durability based choppa, you would be a burst/positional choppa who focuses on durability, or something like that.

Vidrak

12-10-2007, 08:39 AM

I have a question. Whats the difference with having durability skills be intermixed in three paths rather then having a path for them?

Do you think there shouldnt be enough durability skills to have its own path?
I am not really sure yet, I would have to see the trees they have right now to make any real judgement.

While I do agree with Foof on spreading abilities out. My concern with doing this is the trees will become too much of the same. As in, you don't have the ability to go down a specific path. If the durability choices are scattered around all the masteries, you can't just go durability without picking up all the other junk along the way.

It also doesn't make sense to me that there are non-DPS abilities in a purley DPS mastery tree. Thus, I like the "Durability tree" idea, if it is even included or intended for the Choppa at all. I don't think there should be enough of these abilities to fill a whole tree, but I do think it could be incorporated with other parts of the Choppa to fit.

Like when I think of Berserking, I think of an increased damage mitigation and tolerance for pain, thus making you more durable just due to the fact you are going into a frenzy. That is the main reason I keep thinking about some kind of durability line, or maybe skills in the Berserking tree.

But I do not see durability skills fitting into say a "Positional attacks" tree, or an "AOE DPS tree", as they seem more offensive in nature. Possibly including debuffs to incoming damage/snares and the like instead of pure AC/HP/Toughness/Wounds increase.

Again, this is all just speculation/opinion and NOT fact about the game :)

Takhr

12-10-2007, 10:16 AM

ChosenOne

12-11-2007, 12:38 AM

Devoting an entire tree to defense for Chopper is a terrible idea. Thankfully, those that want to roll an Orc with decent defense and offense can play Black Orcs, and specialize in the offensive tree. Choppers should get a few defensive abilities, on medium cooldowns, and maybe a one or two from each of their offensive related trees, but no more. Choppers are already too similar to Black Orcs.

Choppers should be designed to be reckless, bloodthirsty, nearly mindless killing machines, and not otherwise.

Why oh why, is a blackorc able to spec offensive and a choppa not be able to have some sort of tree that makes him live a bit longer?

If the choppa went up that tree it would make him do less damage then those who dont. So its not like its going to make him overpowered.

I really dont see why there is so many against such. If they are more of a solo player then having some better durability at the loss of damage is not a bad thing. They still get to play the class they want to play.

We dont know how it would all work out and it is still quite possible that mythic is going to offer some sort of durability line for the melee dps guys simply because they want to gear this game to a variety of players. Not just the hardcore guys you find on forums. ;)

Foofmonger

12-11-2007, 02:06 AM

We dont know how it would all work out and it is still quite possible that mythic is going to offer some sort of durability line for the melee dps guys simply because they want to gear this game to a variety of players. Not just the hardcore guys you find on forums. ;)

This is some quality BS right here Chosen.

Having a durability line does not "gear the game to variety of players". How does it do that better then having three dps lines with some possible durability choices in them? The answer? It doesn't, it does it worse.

So it isn't just about "hardcore forum guys".

When you have a single durability line, in limits the players more, not less. That means that you have to sink mad points into that line just to achieve any durability, and the other people who don't spec in that line have horrible durability.

If you spread it out between all three, that means that everyone, no matter what line they go down, has the option of increasing their durability for a cost. This gives the player more freedom. Instead of being a durability choppa, he may be a positional based choppa with a focus on durability, or something like that.

Vidrak

12-11-2007, 07:24 AM

I see what others are saying, I just think it is odd that you would even think or want trees for DPS classes that are all the same exact thing, DPS trees only. If you say the Choppa (and other DPS) class will get 3 DPS mastery trees, than you are basically saying the tank classes and healing classes will be straight tanking and healing trees, respectively. And from what Mythic has given out as examples, what you are saying is 100% inaccurate.

From the Nov. Newsletter:
However someone who specializes in the Sword Master’s defensive path will find that they are generally more durable, able to hold aggro better in PvE and able to defend their friends more efficiently in an RvR scenario. Meanwhile a Sword Master who chooses to go a more offensive route will still be able to take a hit, but may find themselves hard pressed to defend & protect as well as their counterpart, admittedly they will be hitting quite a bit harder as a trade off.
Mythic talks about how the Swordmaster (who is a tank class) has at least a defensive tree and an offensive tree. Notice how they can still tank effectively even if using the offensive tree, they will just be more focused on dealing damage than being durable. But this by no means makes them "a worthless tank". In the same way that a Choppa not spec'd in "DPS" would not be a "worthless DPS class".

Here is a quote from the last beta update:
“I'm hoping we'll get more than two options for mastery per class (i.e. a chosen that can master being more defensive, being more offensive, or being more debuffer.., or... duel vs shield, or...”

- Each career will have 3 Mastery paths available to them, and the specific differences between the paths will be based on the individual careers. In general, careers that share archetypes will often share similar themes on Mastery, but it is not 100% the same.

Like I said, archetypes will be sharing the same type of masteries, as confirmed above. Not 100% the same, but they will be more similar than other archetypes. So the Hammerer, Choppa, Witch Elf, Witch Hunter, etc. are all in the same archetype, I would assume. Mythic also kind of dodged the overall question at hand here, but the above quote answers it somewhat.

Basically, I do not think all the mastery trees will be 100% the same. From what Mythic has said, tanks will not have ALL Defensive trees. And from that, I have to say that Healers will not have ALL Healing trees and DPS classes will not have ALL DPS trees. This information is why I think there will be different trees for the Choppa class (and all classes). If all the trees were the same, it would be boring and not real specialization anyways.

I would be interested to see quotes and real information from people that think otherwise. I have just looked through the information I know has been released about masteries and this seems to be all that applies to the trees themselves (and the types of trees/skills in them).

Basically, all I can conclude from what I have seen is:
-There will be 3 mastery trees for each class
-Mastery trees between classes of the same archetype will be similar, but not 100% the same
-The mastery trees for each class will not be 100% the same, for example a tanking class will have defensive and offensive trees (not all trees are for tanking alone)
-Mastery trees will allow specialization, but still allow the class to function properly for its intended role (as in, no matter what a class chooses they can still tank/heal/dps well, depending what archetype they fall into)

Takhr

12-11-2007, 09:05 AM

I see a lot of irrelevant comparisons to Tank classes. Tanks getting an offensive tree doesn't justify melee DPS getting a defensive tree. If all classes were to get one defensive, one offensive and one utility tree, class identity and uniqueness would be annihilated.

All Tanks and Healers will probably get an offensive tree, because this is a very PvP centric game. The absence of an offensive tree could otherwise preclude an effective solo play-style. Also, offensive trees are typically the best to level with, (there is no need to tank mobs.)

DPS classes, on the other hand, have a much more defined role. Among other classes, a Tank's role is to first take damage, second, deal damage. A Healer's role is to first heal damage, second, deal damage. But, a DPS class' only role is to deal damage. Therefor, it would make sense that the DPS' trees focused on different ways to deal damage.

Mastery trees should focus on your archetype's role, but still encourage variety between characters of the same class. Different classes should be a bit different from each other; different archetypes should be extremely different from each other.

Though, Defensive tactics should be available for DPS classes to allow premeditated but quick character changes based on the presumed fight ahead.

Vidrak

12-11-2007, 09:53 AM

Mastery trees should focus on your archetype's role, but still encourage variety between characters of the same class. Different classes should be a bit different from each other; different archetypes should be extremely different from each other.
And how does pigeonholing all DPS classes into "DPS Only" trees give adifference in specialization and flavor to the class? I find it more limiting than trees that are more different. You are basically saying that getting a red apple, a green apple and an organe apple is more different and more variety than getting an apple, a pear and a plum. It just doesn't make sense.

A DPS has a much more defined role? What the heck are you talking about? Tanks and healers do not have defined roles? You are mad to not understand what their defined roles are. And believe it or not, there are many games out there that have DPS classes that do many different things. Such as CC, debuffs, off-tanking, etc. Which are all secondary roles, just like DPS is a secondary roll for healers and tanks.

Again, I think your remarks are very contradictory thinking that the DPS trees will not have the diversity of the healer and tank trees. And the mentality of "damage is all that matters" is running rampant in your post. Even in a PvP game, and especially a PvP and PvE game (RvR), damage is not the only thing that matters. And I do think melee DPS should have other roles (suppported by masteries) which they can fill, just like the healing and tank classes.

I am basing what I think off of what Mythic has said, everything you say is 100% speculation. I have no reason to believe from the examples given that all the masteries will be basically the same (as in, all DPS). But we shall see.

I think more of what has happened is PvP has turned into something "where damage is all that matters" and people feel that that is all that is really needed in these trees to be successful. But with tanks being able to taunt in PvP, that is going to change a lot of things. Now all of a sudden, tanking and healing are going to be vital (or more vital) in PvP. The tank can focus on taking hits and the healer on keeping the tank alive.

This game is going to be different than WoW, I hope, in the sense of class roles in the game. In WoW, I would agree, all that mattered was "DPS" and that could be why you think "DPS classes are the only ones with a defined role". But I hope WAR will be something different, where the roles are all very well defined, but also the ability for secondary roles is there for ALL classes to enjoy. The main difference being that tanking is possible in PvP, thus the tank's role is very defined in PvP and PvE ... and not 100% damage for one and 100% tanking for the other. This is the same with healers.

Takhr

12-11-2007, 10:41 AM

And how does pigeonholing all DPS classes into "DPS Only" trees give adifference in specialization and flavor to the class? I find it more limiting than trees that are more different. Pigeonholing is the wrong word. DPS need to be DPS, tanks need to be able to tank well, healers need to able to heal well. Archetypes need to have exclusive roles, even at the cost of limiting possibilities for any class. There are many classes, and they should not all be alike. Otherwise, the boundaries between classes disintegrate. Too many options is not always good.

You are basically saying that getting a red apple, a green apple and an organe apple is more different and more variety than getting an apple, a pear and a plum. It just doesn't make sense. That's not the right analogy. I never said that different specialties of DPS, (types of apples,) have more variety than different archetype roles (fruits.) What I said was that apple classes should stick to apple masteries and pear classes should stick to pear masteries. Trees should allow players to choose how they want to play their role; not allow players to choose which role they want to play. There are different archetypes for a reason. Players playing DPS classes should be able to decide how they want to specialize their types of DPS abilities based on their desired playstyle. In other words, DPS should be able to specialize their mastery in (eg.) single target positional attacks, and not tanking better.

A DPS has a much more defined role? What the heck are you talking about? Tanks and healers do not have defined roles? You are mad to not understand what their defined roles are. And believe it or not, there are many games out there that have DPS classes that do many different things. Such as CC, debuffs, off-tanking, etc. Which are all secondary roles, just like DPS is a secondary roll for healers and tanks.DPS classes have a more defined role because they don't need to heal or tank (or CC/debuff) in order to DPS. Healers and Tanks need to DPS in order to heal or tank more effectively, (in Warhammer.)

Again, I think your remarks are very contradictory thinking that the DPS trees will not have the diversity of the healer and tank trees. And the mentality of "damage is all that matters" is running rampant in your post. Even in a PvP game, and especially a PvP and PvE game (RvR), damage is not the only thing that matters. And I do think melee DPS should have other roles (suppported by masteries) which they can fill, just like the healing and tank classes.Damage is not all that matters and I never alluded to that claim. Damage matters more than tanking or healing, when soloing, I wrote that, and it is true. In a group, healing, tanking and DPS matter approximately equally. All masteries should be, (and from what has been 'semi-officially' written are going to be,) centered around specializing your class role. Tanks will choose to specialize in tanking more defensively or tanking more offensively. DPS will choose how they want to DPS, eg, Bright Wizard paths may be AE/DD/DoT.

I am basing what I think off of what Mythic has said, everything you say is 100% speculation. I have no reason to believe from the examples given that all the masteries will be basically the same (as in, all DPS). But we shall see.Oh, I don't think that all masteries will be extremely similar between classes of the same archetype. Classes in Warhammer all have different playstyles. I wouldn't be surprised if the Magus got a mastery tree devoted to their disc, or if Marauder got a mastery tree devoted to mutations, or even a specific branch of mutation, etc.

Heavier DPS needs to be an option for Tanks and Healers, because in this game all classes are required to deal damage to the enemy, in all situations. But only one archetype needs to heal, and only one archetype needs to tank. To set DPS aside from the already very different Tanks and Healers, it is absolutely necessary for DPS to have significantly higher DPS. If choppers, for example, were to spec in a defense oriented mastery tree, they would be too similar to Offensive Black Orcs.

ChosenOne

12-11-2007, 11:52 AM

Alright, thanks for calling my post quality foof but the part I do take offense to.

If someone goes 100% into durability line they are Severely limiting how much they can put into the more offensive natures of the choppa and that would make them much worse off for their guild or groups. But if the player is more of a solo player then whats wrong with that?

For those who are in regiments who want their choppa's to be more offensive you could put a few points in the durability line as well just to give a little boost and then put the majority in one of the more offensive lines.

Im not going to even try to change the minds of some of you. I understand your stance but I think some of you are taking the name of the archetype a little too literally. But whatever, its not my class and I am not too big on the melee dps classes so far. If Mythic has the same mindset as most of you on this then I doubt I will be interested in them come release.

Vidrak

12-11-2007, 01:57 PM

Takhr,
I guess I can agree with most of what you have to say, more playing Devil's Advocate than anything :)

But I do still think DPS classes should have more to them than just DPS. And I don't see a Durability tree ruining the class in this way.

If choppers, for example, were to spec in a defense oriented mastery tree, they would be too similar to Offensive Black Orcs.

A fully offensive specialized Tank or Healer should not even be equal to half the standard DPS of a DPS class. This is not WoW (a game with no archetypes, just random classes). In an archetype sysetm, you cannot and will not have a tank or healer out DPSing a DPS class. No matter how geared/specced they are. In archetype system games, like EQII, Vanguard, etc. You see a LARGE boost in damage from DPS classes. Basically, a fight with a healer and tank would take 10 mintues, but with a DPS class, it takes 3 minutes.

This would be the same for DPS classes is what I am saying. They will have insane DPS, but will not even be 1/2 of what a Tank would be as far as tanking ability. Just because you are durable doesn't mean you have taunts and other means of crowd control. Taunts are what make tanks, tanks. Without taunts, they are worthless, basically.

I guess I can't see mastery classes in offense for healers and tanks getting close to DPS classes, or else the game is VERY VERY flawed. If that happened, you would have no need for DPS classes, because the tanks could tank and do damage, while the healers can heal and do damage.

And the masteries only increase the ability by 30% or so is what Mythic said, and if a healer and tank are only 30% below the damage of a DPS class ... something is very, very broken. I have a feeling, and have for a while, that healers will be very overpowered in this game. As a class that can heal that well and do damage is something that turns into a complete powerhouse on the battlefield.

But we shall see.

Foofmonger

12-11-2007, 01:59 PM

Alright, thanks for calling my post quality foof but the part I do take offense to.

I wasn't trying to be offensive. I was just calling you out on something I don't agree with. I suppose I could have said, "thats totally untrue" or something. Sorry.

If someone goes 100% into durability line they are Severely limiting how much they can put into the more offensive natures of the choppa and that would make them much worse off for their guild or groups. But if the player is more of a solo player then whats wrong with that?

Nothing is "wrong" with it. But what is "right" with it either? The system I advocate allows all choppas regardless of what path they go down to have durability options. Instead of creating one gimp spec that you have to spec into to get any kind of durability boost.

For those who are in regiments who want their choppa's to be more offensive you could put a few points in the durability line as well just to give a little boost and then put the majority in one of the more offensive lines.

Yet if the system I am advocating is in, you could choose durability abilities out of any path and still be viable. So no matter what path you chose, you would have choices to make about sacrificing offensive vs durability. It just sounds like a more cohesive and stronger system to me.

Im not going to even try to change the minds of some of you. I understand your stance but I think some of you are taking the name of the archetype a little too literally. But whatever, its not my class and I am not too big on the melee dps classes so far. If Mythic has the same mindset as most of you on this then I doubt I will be interested in them come release.

Just because I don't advocate a single path for durability doesn't mean I am against melee dps classes getting more durability. I just think that taking the easy way out and making it a single path would hurt these classes more then it would help them.

Foofmonger

12-11-2007, 02:04 PM

But I do still think DPS classes should have more to them than just DPS. And I don't see a Durability tree ruining the class in this way.

I agree that they should have more then just DPS, but I do see a durability path ruining the archetype easily. A much stronger approach is to have durability options in all paths.

A fully offensive specialized Tank or Healer should not even be equal to half the standard DPS of a DPS class. This is not WoW (a game with no archetypes, just random classes). In an archetype sysetm, you cannot and will not have a tank or healer out DPSing a DPS class. No matter how geared/specced they are.

I seriously hope not. If a fully offensive tank/support can't even match half the dps of a baseline dps class, this game will be broken. Mythic has stated time and time again that support and tanks WILL be able to do decent dps. 50% of what a baseline class can do when you are specced/geared to go all out is not decent, its pitiful.

This would be the same for DPS classes is what I am saying. They will have insane DPS, but will not even be 1/2 of what a Tank would be as far as tanking ability. Just because you are durable doesn't mean you have taunts and other means of crowd control. Taunts are what make tanks, tanks. Without taunts, they are worthless, basically.

I disagree here as well. Taunts are not what make tanks, and without them, they are not completely worthless. Thats just ridiculous.

I guess I can't see mastery classes in offense for healers and tanks getting close to DPS classes, or else the game is VERY VERY flawed. If that happened, you would have no need for DPS classes, because the tanks could tank and do damage, while the healers can heal and do damage.

Has utility ever come to your mind? Tanks and support classes will have little DPS supporting utility. That means that while their DPS may be good, they won't be able to apply it anywhere nearly as well as a DPS class. Mythic has stated that they will be able to do damage, and don't expect it to be pitiful. They obviously aren't going to do as much as a DPS class, but 50% full offensive specced? That would make this game very very flawed.

And the masteries only increase the ability by 30% or so is what Mythic said, and if a healer and tank are only 30% below the damage of a DPS class ... something is very, very broken.

No it isn't. You can't just make statements like this an expect them to be treated as fact. If tanks and support have completely pitiful dps, this game will be very very broken, and be nothing more then a WoW clone.

Krause

12-11-2007, 04:37 PM

Choppa's FTW WAGHHHHHH

ChosenOne

12-11-2007, 05:07 PM

Varcan

12-12-2007, 04:52 PM

Foofmonger

12-12-2007, 09:10 PM

Honestly I dont really care how they put it in, whether it is a full mastery line or intermixed. But just because they are labed in the melee dps archetype doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to choose to give up a little damage capability for a bit more survivability. That doesnt make them a tank. You wont see them with shields, you wont see them with shield abilities.

My guess would be some parry, or a stance that increases parry, decreases berserk rage buildup or something. Im sure Mythic will come up with something suitable.

Thats exactly the problem with a single path devoted to durability. When you have an entire path devoted to it, it isn't just about trading a little offensive for a little survivability. If some Choppa spends 100% of his points in a path devoted to making him more durable, hes going to be ridiculously durable, maybe even more-so then most non uber defensive tanks.

Unless the path is gimp, and it really doesn't have a point except to toss a few leftover points into. Either way, its bad game design.

Garukk

12-13-2007, 03:33 PM

You need to have played a WoW warrior to undersand. To get durability you had to put points into the protection line which was a waste of points.

And how does pigeonholing all DPS classes into "DPS Only" trees give adifference in specialization and flavor to the class? I find it more limiting than trees that are more different. You are basically saying that getting a red apple, a green apple and an organe apple is more different and more variety than getting an apple, a pear and a plum. It just doesn't make sense.

Do you even read what you type? "pigeon holing dps into dps" what the hell are you talking about.

The whole point of an archetype is that it is unique. If you want defense, play a black orc.

It will be two types of dps trees and a support tree with defence abilities down the line of each.

Dankard

12-15-2007, 10:06 AM

Thats exactly the problem with a single path devoted to durability. When you have an entire path devoted to it, it isn't just about trading a little offensive for a little survivability. If some Choppa spends 100% of his points in a path devoted to making him more durable, hes going to be ridiculously durable, maybe even more-so then most non uber defensive tanks.

Unless the path is gimp, and it really doesn't have a point except to toss a few leftover points into. Either way, its bad game design.

In my opinion you're being a bit narrow minded here. A defensive tree for a dps class doesn't mean "hit me, I wanna tank!". The defensive maestri normally rely on enhanced stamina, which won't make you a tank, just last a bit longer... and on the other hand, skills to escape combat. The goal is to deal as much or even more dammage than an offensive maestry, but on a longer time. So you give up a bit of burst dammage, to get a better survivability. But still, your job will never be to take dammage, and to protect your allys. It'll just increase your chances to survive to a tank coming back to protect his healers and ranged dps.

On the other hand, the offensive tank tends to consider an offense as the best defense! But still, his job is to protect his allys and geting hurt instead of them. But he'll stand less punishement than the defensive tanks obviously!

So basicly a defensive dps = First class DPS/Okay survivability insted of what, the offensive tank = Very good survivability/Good dps. The DPS still deal more dammages than the Tank, and the other way round for survivability.

And none of the Off tank or the Deff DPS will be gimped, unless mythic does a f*cked up balance work...

Foofmonger

12-15-2007, 02:56 PM

In my opinion you're being a bit narrow minded here. A defensive tree for a dps class doesn't mean "hit me, I wanna tank!". The defensive maestri normally rely on enhanced stamina, which won't make you a tank, just last a bit longer... and on the other hand, skills to escape combat.

I know how it would work man. I'm not being narrow minded at all, you are just not looking at what I am actually saying.

The goal is to deal as much or even more dammage than an offensive maestry, but on a longer time. So you give up a bit of burst dammage, to get a better survivability. But still, your job will never be to take dammage, and to protect your allys. It'll just increase your chances to survive to a tank coming back to protect his healers and ranged dps.

But heres the problem with an an entire path devoted to survivability. Its not giving up a "bit" of burst damage, its giving up a complete mastery lines worth of abilities and damage for a complete mastery lines worth of survivability (if you were to go 100% in the survivability path). This would turn Choppas into something very similar to a protection warrior in WoW. A class that has good damage potential, but since you picked all the survivability abilities, your damage is crap, and you can't really tank well (in pvp).

[/quote]
So basicly a defensive dps = First class DPS/Okay survivability insted of what, the offensive tank = Very good survivability/Good dps. The DPS still deal more dammages than the Tank, and the other way round for survivability.

Yea, that makes sense. So?

[quote]
And none of the Off tank or the Deff DPS will be gimped, unless mythic does a f*cked up balance work...

The Defensive Meele DPSer will be gimped if there is an entire line devoted to survivability/durability, and the player specs 100% down the path.

I'll say it one more time. I am not against meele dps classes being able to increase thier survivability. But I don't think it should come at the cost of neutering one of their trees to only give them two proper dps options (and to fufill their main role). It makes 100% more sense from both a game balance and gameplay standpoint to have certain survivability abilities in every tree, and allow the player to pick and choose what they want.

Under your system, you would have something like.

Defensive choppa
Burst choppa
Sustained dps choppa

Thats just so boring and horrible to me. I sincerely hope Mythic doesn't choose to go this way.

Under my system, you would have something like.

Offensive Burst Choppa
Defensive Burst choppa
Offensive Sustained Choppa
Defensive Sustained choppa
Offensive Utility Choppa
Defensive Utility Choppa

It gives you more options, allows for more experimentation, and above all, allows every path to fufill the Choppas role, which is to do damage. No path would inherantly gimp your damage unless you chose to go for the survivability abilities.

ChosenOne

12-15-2007, 07:55 PM

Foofmonger

12-15-2007, 08:00 PM

There is one flaw in your argument foof. In the releases we have seen about masteries we were told that someone could possibly get 75% in each mastery line or they could focus more and go 100% in two mastery lines and ignore the third.

I know this man.

What you are saying would suggest you could only go 100% in the durability line and yes you would be correct that it would not be a very good choppa. But they would also be able to throw points in both of the other two lines, possibly one of the other lines completely.
I have never stated that you can only go 100% in the durability line. What I'm stating is that if you do choose to do that (and purchase every ability), you have roughly only 25% points to spend in another mastery. This is exactly what I am talking about

You can go 100% in one line and high in others, but thats if you purchase no abilities. I'm trying to take it to the extreme and say, this choppa goes 100% down the durability path, buys all the durability abilities, and has 25% left over for 1 more dps mastery.

That doesnt make a choppa that is crap dps and too much durability. That makes a choppa that has a LITTLE bit more survivability and can still do plenty of abilities for damage. For someone who wants to play that way and not be destroyed in just a few hits due to not consistantly playing with good healers then they should be able to.
No, just no. It does make a choppa that is crap dps and faaaar too much durability. If you want a LITTLE bit more survivability, then why wouldn't you be for survivability abilities in every tree? That functions far better.

That doesnt make them a tank, to think such is putting Way too much control in the mastery lines. We were told at max 30% difference.If your choppa has 30% more survivability (in terms of how well the abilities function), as well as a plethora of survavibility abilities (considering your going all the way down the path), and is 30% less effective at damage, it does kinda make you a tank.

So no, that isn't a flaw in my argument. I took that into account before I presented the argument in the first place.

ChosenOne

12-15-2007, 08:55 PM

Um, no we were shown an example of someone could go 100% in TWO out of three masteries or they could go 75% in all three. Thats vastly different from 100% in one and 25% in another that you list.

Foofmonger

12-15-2007, 09:09 PM

Um, no we were shown an example of someone could go 100% in TWO out of three masteries or they could go 75% in all three. Thats vastly different from 100% in one and 25% in another that you list.

Read the info again man.

You have to take into account that purchasing abilities also requires points.

ChosenOne

12-16-2007, 01:27 PM

Read the info again man.

You have to take into account that purchasing abilities also requires points.

Mmm true. So you are estimating that with skill point purchase that you can go 100% in one path and 25% in another?

Foofmonger

12-16-2007, 01:35 PM

Mmm true. So you are estimating that with skill point purchase that you can go 100% in one path and 25% in another?

I'm not estimating anything, thats what they said.

They said if you went 100% down one path, and bought all the abilities, you have roughly 25% left over for another mastery/skills.

It makes sense though, because it allows for even more customization.

Now, lets say two choppas go 75% down the same path. If this were WoW, they would be nearly carbon copies of each other, but it isn't. Theoretically even though they have the same point spread in the same mastery, they could have completely different abilities that they chose to purchase.

Which means that just because someone else has go down the same path as you, doesn't mean you have the same abilities. Also, the less abilities you buy, the more points you have for increasing mastery levels, which even furthers customization.

ChosenOne

12-16-2007, 01:38 PM

I'm not estimating anything, thats what they said.

They said if you went 100% down one path, and bought all the abilities, you have roughly 25% left over for another mastery/skills.

It makes sense though, because it allows for even more customization.

Now, lets say two choppas go 75% down the same path. If this were WoW, they would be nearly carbon copies of each other, but it isn't. Theoretically even though they have the same point spread in the same mastery, they could have completely different abilities that they chose to purchase.

Which means that just because someone else has go down the same path as you, doesn't mean you have the same abilities. Also, the less abilities you buy, the more points you have for increasing mastery levels, which even furthers customization.

Perhaps you are right then. Perhaps intermingling some partial defensive skills into the paths is better then making a whole path. That would seriously hinder the choppa.

But in the end the creators know the system best, after all they created it. Hopefully they are able to do it right.

Foofmonger

12-16-2007, 01:51 PM

Perhaps you are right then. Perhaps intermingling some partial defensive skills into the paths is better then making a whole path. That would seriously hinder the choppa.

But in the end the creators know the system best, after all they created it. Hopefully they are able to do it right.

Yea, I have faith in Mythic that they will do it right. Maybe I am totally wrong and they will get a defensive path working good, I'm not saying it isn't possible. I just don't think its likely.

Gemini

12-16-2007, 04:32 PM

What I'd like to see, personally, is one path that is totally offensive, maybe even some abilties that sacrifice defense for offense, one path that is mostly offensive with a little bit of defensive stuff, and then one that is still largely offensive, but has more defensive stuff then others. Perhaps the most defensive one could have a chunk of reactional stuff that you can do after you parry or dodge, as well as tactics and abilties that allow you to dodge/parry more often.

Moshpotato

01-10-2008, 09:15 PM

I would be somewhat surprised if all the trees don't have some emphasis on berserking. Its kind of their THING! Ignoring berserking is probably a excellent way to gimp your Choppa, so I wouldn't think they would offer a tree that would ignore it.

For example:

Tree 1-Gives abilities that allow you to go berserk quicker
Tree 2-Gives abilities that will allow you to do serious damage while berserk
Tree 3-Gives abilities that will allow you to sustain being berserk longer

However, the trees will likely give improvements that don't revolve around berserk as well. Basically, I think either all 3 trees will have berserk at their core, or none of them will(instead effecting your berserk abilities as a side effect). Having 1 tree being all about berserk just seems wrong to me.

This is probably what its going to look like for all melee DPS classes. Making a mastery for attack, defense, and that classes specialty will keep keep a degree of customized play style for what you want from your character plus focusing on his/her specialty. This means your Choppa can be an attack/beserk or a defense/beserk or any other way you wanna do it.

If you wanna compare it to other classes in this archetype, witch hunters will get their attack and defense path and lets say a ranged attack specialty path (just making it up now...) so that its similar to other melee DPS but is unique in its own way.

Vidrak

01-11-2008, 03:09 PM

I was personally hoping for a more diverse tree. But after watching the last podcast (the one for last month, I think). It sounds like DPS classes are going to be focused in DPS only in all mastery trees. Mythic didn't use the Choppa as an example, but the casters were very focused on DPS trees. Like say fast single target damage, or slow casting but LARGE damage, or more powerful DoT damage, or AOE damage ... etc.

We shall see, but I think it will be very cut and dry if everything is just damage, damage and more damage.

But I could definitely see the Choppa having some kind of positional tree, focused more on fast, single target damage, like knockdowns, backstabs, cheap shots and all that. Then I really would like to see a tree for berserking, focused on longer duration of berserk as well as stronger berserking abilities and an overall tougher to take down target while berserk. Then finally, some kind of AOE tree, more focused on doing large amounts of damage to multiple targets, slowing the retreats of enemies and disorienting groups of people momentarily (like snares/debuffs).

Again, we shall see, I just hope there is quite a bit of differentiation and play style differences with each mastery choice. That is all I really want, I guess, and I think that is also the point that Mythic made about Masteries. They are more long term decisions on how you play your character than a spec (in WoW terms at least ... spec's are more taken into account by tactics equipped at that time).

Rehk

01-14-2008, 09:17 AM

I really hope they dont break things down so cut and dry as some of the previous posters have suggested.

Positionals are a core part of every melee dps's playstyle, Having a tree devoted to that would be pretty lame. Why? Positionals rock, and I dont want to have to spec in positionals for them to be effective.

Berserk tree - Berserk again, a core mechanic of the choppa. I really dont want to have to SPEC into a berserk tree to get the most out of it. Thats what tactics should be for.

Id like to see 3 diffrent trees that differentiate themselves by how the dmg gets pumped out, but have every single tree offer something in the way of unique positionals, berserk abilities, and defense.

Having things broken down in a cut and dry way would inevitably lead to a "best" spec, you cant deny that.

While having things spread more abstractly, giving Berserk, positionals, and defensives in EVERY tree, would lend itself much better to customization and options for playstyle.

Foofmonger

01-14-2008, 12:14 PM

Positionals are a core part of every melee dps's playstyle, Having a tree devoted to that would be pretty lame. Why? Positionals rock, and I dont want to have to spec in positionals for them to be effective.

This is the only part I want to comment on.

The mastery system does not work like previous spec systems. Even if you do not spec in something at all, it is still effective. This isn't like WoW (or other games) where the abilities you don't spec in are nearly entirely useless..

So I don't really agree with your concerns, the basic format of the mastery system renders them fairly non-existent.

Rehk

01-14-2008, 12:56 PM

On the contrary...if they make a Positional tree, that would imply that speccing it would make them more effective, as well as giving you the option of purchasing special positional skills.

I LOVE positionals, I just dont want to be forced to spec into a tree based around them to get the most out of them.

Id rather have positionals available in all the trees.

I think maybe your making too much out of my word choice...Yes, if they did have a positional tree and you didnt spec it they would still be *effective*

But I dont want to have to spec into something to *get the most out of it* when it is a core part of every melee dps class. It just shouldnt be something we have to choose from.

Vidrak

01-15-2008, 01:20 PM

I personally think we kind of need to throw the "specialization" idea out the window entirely. The mastery trees are not there to pigeonhole your character into one role ... be that tanking only, AOE DPS only or healing only. They are meant to enhance more how you play, not necessarily dictate how you play.

At least that is what it sounds like from the videos I have seen, which is one reason I have brought up the overall uselessness of instant respecs. The choices you make, while experimentation is good, are more permanent and something that will not define your character in the ways most games do it. It is more of an on the side thing.

I will continue to use WoW specialization, as that is basically the only one most people have played. The WoW version of "masteries" majorly define your character. Increasing your effectiveness by probably 200-300%, maybe even more. Thus, it locks your character into using only a small amount of the core abilities (my Mage character comes to mind, you don't use fire/arcane much at all if you pick a frost specialization).

But we need to realize, this isn't how WAR is doing things. If you FULLY spec'd in one tree, you would only be 30% more effective or so as Mythic has said a few times. Not only that, but fully spec'ing still leaves points to put in yet ANOTHER tree. And they have also said that these masteries will not make CORE abilities "useless" like many, many games do. So, if you specialized in AOE because you enjoy it, you will be more effective at what you do. But at the same time, the other Choppa in your group will not be blowing you out of the water in damage because his spec is focused on single target DPS or positionals.

So basically, the absolute worst you could be compared to another person of the same class would be 30%. So I guess I see the system as a bit more balanced and less "role defining" if that makes sense. While I have no clue what the Choppa masteries will be, I think it still illustrates my point.

And as others have said, Tactics still need to be important, and I think Tactics will have a much larger impact on the performance of your character in a certain situation than the Mastery path you have chose ... hence, why tactics are meant to be changed and swapped out as certain situations arise.

Just my 2 cents, yet again :)

Rehk

01-15-2008, 07:09 PM

I think everyone here, who at least made a intelligent post, already knew that.

Mug elbbub

01-15-2008, 11:16 PM

Rehk

01-16-2008, 10:44 AM

I think you overestimate the importance of end game pve content in WAR.

not to mention your assuming that there will be Single target and AOE based matery trees.

Which i suspect is highly unlikely, although definatly possible.

Vidrak

01-16-2008, 01:40 PM

I don't know about that when one is min/maxing 30% is a whole hell of alot. For example lets take a wow rogue the gap between a Lower tier muta rogue and a lower tier combat rogue was about 10-15% dps and alot of guilds even good ones wouldn't use a muta rogue for instances. Thats not to say that muta didnt have its advantages such as better combo point management and more burst. When over the course of a boss fight (using a single target non moving target for simplicities sake.) if a choppa speced for aoe would do 100,000 dmg but the single target choppa does 130,000 that is very significant.

If the diff is as big as they say people that enjoy some on the side pve might end up respeccing alot.
It doesn't necessarily mean 30% DPS though. As I am SURE there will be DPS increasing abilities in all trees.

When you master in something fully, you are 30% better than you were before at that specific line of skills. So say, that liine of skills was berserking, you are 30% better using those than someone who isn't spec'd. But the person that isn't spec'd, will have bonuses in other things, like AOE/single target DPS (again, these are just examples). This will close to gap.

I think most of the trees will have to be very balanced as far as overall damage output. Or else, the mastery trees will suffer from the "cookie cutter" builds that games like WoW are filled with. It more dictates HOW you do the damage than HOW MUCH you actually do. It will change your playstyle, not how effective you are at doing your main job (at least not to a GREAT extent).

So say, no matter how you are spec'd you are still going to be only maybe 5-10% less damage than someone 100% spec'd in varying trees for damage alone. But you may also have some extra tricks up your sleeve to balance out the pure damage another mastery would have. Damage is definitely not all that matters, especially when talking about PvP. Healing, knockdown, survivability, root, snare are all very powerful abilities in PvP, if you can't hit your target, your DPS is going to drop A LOT. Thus evening those folks that spec purely in damage, for instance.

Goosey_J

01-17-2008, 04:24 PM

I envisioned them to be along the lines of:

Ferocity: Offers improvements to thinks like berserking, weapon damage etc.

Cunning: Offers upgrades to postional/burst DPS attacks.

Stubborness: Offers upgrades to sustained DPS and resilience.

Needless to say tactics within those three criteria would follow the themes of said tree.

Axxar

01-22-2008, 04:24 AM

In my opinion masteries should be different ways of improving the role of your career, not change your career's archetype into something unrecognizable. This would translate into all mastery paths improving the offense of the Choppa. That said, I think the Choppa should be tougher than most other melee DPS careers, being an orc and all. This could be accomplished through masteries if needed, but then it would have to be spread across all paths to make sure that all Choppas are at least a little bit tough.

In a game with few class options I can see the use of allowing different options for a class' role, but in WAR we already have an archetype system and 24(!) different careers. In my opinion, if you see a tank, he's a tank. Not some DPS hybrid. If you see a DPS career, he's a DPS career, not some tanking hybrid.

I'm not against a mastery tree that gives the Choppa more durability options than the other mastery trees - as long as it also has a good chunk of offense to go with it. Like you could have one mastery that increases your damage by roughly 30% with full specialization, where another mastery increases your damage only by 20% but also increases your defense.

I'm not sure how exactly Mythic is going to do it, but I hope do hope they won't do anything such as make a DPS career mastery that focuses entirely on defense, or a tank career mastery that focuses entirely on offense.