Random Self Harm - Fun or Irriating?

[Zoatibix]

Kinda wondering about the ‘Druchiian Roulette’ element of the Sorceress.

Firstly, the flavour. Secondly, sustainability and/or reliability of their RDPS

Dark Magic is certainly ‘tampering with things that mortals should not wot of’, but blowing one’s own head off does seem a little stupid for a Druchii Sorcerer.

I can understand Chaos and particulary Orc magicians being so crazy and taking such risks. I can understand the Greenskins having some form of ‘ead banger’ rule (certainly a rule they’ve been given by GW in the TT games)

But it seems at odds with the cool, calculating Sorcereres of the Covenant..

Secondly, will the Sorcerer be the kind of RDPS that one wants providing covering fire?

One minute spells are blasting the enemy asunder as the melee types go in – the next everything goes quiet as the Sorcerer keels over dead or simply stops casting because he ‘needs to cool off a bit’.

Either that or the Sorcerer does subpar damage in order to avoid ‘overheating’.

I’m thinking here that fights are going to be among groups and take longer to finish than in eg WoW.

Lastly, if our healer is stuck in melee keeping the front line going, how is he going to heal the silly Sorcerer who wants to stand off at range? I would think that if a class is prone to nuking itself (and thus being wide open to becoming an easy kill) they might need more baby sitting.

So will Squig Herders and Chaos RDPS be more favoured than Sorcerers for example? Or do you think that the mechanics revealed so far point to a fair spread of RDPS types for Destruction?

For example, at the moment I’m favouring the Squig Herder because I’ll be constantly doing something – I don’t like the idea of having to stop casting at a critical moment and stand about waiting for my ‘overchange’ meter to drain.

(Please note, I’m sure Mythic have something dashed clever up it’s sleeves. Obviously we don’t’ have all the facts but I’m interested in other people’s speculations up to this point.)

[Rowhin]

One thought...whoever says it is random? We don't know that yet.

[Zoatibix]

From Paul's podcast. He says that once the Sorcerer reaches a certain threshold she has a chance of blowing her own head off.

[pzykozis]

One thought...whoever says it is random? We don't know that yet.

Even if it isn't random it doesn't really help the sustainability of their dps but i guess as a counter you would say they would have already achieved the damage that classes that could sustain themselves would achieve in the long term

From Paul's podcast. He says that once the Sorcerer reaches a certain threshold she has a chance of blowing her own head off.

take what paul says with a pinch of salt after all he does finish the sentence by saying blowing her own head off... unless that is expected to happen aswell.

Edit: ooops i forgot to add i think it will be fun to try and balance the dps and not nuke yourself in the process it could get irritating if the mechanic isn't handled or balanced properly though.

[Alota]

Firstly, the lore: I agree with you, this isn't really fit for sorceress's, as they know how to controll Dark Magic. It might be dangerous magic, but only to those who haven't learned how to use it. The Druchii know how to controll it and got as much chance of blowing up as High Elves using High Magic. The only thing that Dark Magic does is corrupt your mind, that's it.

The Mechanic: I think the mechanic can work, and the Sorceress will probably be the most damage capable class, but then will also be the most healer reliable class (as Rdps that is) and I think the player needs to make carefull choises on where to go all out and where to hold in. Thus I don't think other Rdps classes will be picked over her.

[Xurré]

I think, and this is pure speculation, that it’s actually just the Dark Magic spells which are dangerous and that the other magic spells are safe (allowing you to cool off). As such the dark magic spells would be a lot more powerful, but carry risk with them the more you use them while the other spells are safer, but weaker. Thus the Sorceress would be continually busy, but would need to balance using her heavy hitters against her more general spells. Having the class do nothing for a while would be a silly mechanic.

I also think that it won’t be a sudden-death kinda thing (that would be beyond stupid). Just that the more you use the spells the more damage you get if the random chance of getting damage happens. Basically it’d be a sign of “ok, maybe you’re going too far now” and leave the player playing roulette with how far they’re willing to push it before cooling off.

But yeah, it doesn’t sounds like a particularly fun mechanic being a slave to randomness like that at all and I also don’t think it’s particularly well suited for the Sorceress. Thematically would’ve been great for greenskins (for example), it just doesn’t suit dark elves all that well.


- Xurré

[Zoatibix]

Oh, I don't think you actually kill yourself. Rather you do 'significant damage' to yourself. Enough damage to make you think 'I need to stop and get healed.'

That damage could be to Morale or Hitpoints.

[Roargh Growler]

Seems to me like one hell of an interesting mechanic to play with.
I do not see any downsides with it unless its over the top.

[Axxar]

It could be done as an interesting mechanic where you could lower the risk of damaging yourself by picking spells in specific patterns, kind of like combos but not forces. Sometimes you might need something that breaks the chain, which you can then do if you accept the risks involved. Anyway, isn't exploding yourself while casting more of a Greenskin thing?

[celdiruen]

Kinda wondering about the ‘Druchiian Roulette’ element of the Sorceress.

Firstly, the flavour. Secondly, sustainability and/or reliability of their RDPS

Dark Magic is certainly ‘tampering with things that mortals should not wot of’, but blowing one’s own head off does seem a little stupid for a Druchii Sorcerer.

I can understand Chaos and particulary Orc magicians being so crazy and taking such risks. I can understand the Greenskins having some form of ‘ead banger’ rule (certainly a rule they’ve been given by GW in the TT games)

But it seems at odds with the cool, calculating Sorcereres of the Covenant..

Secondly, will the Sorcerer be the kind of RDPS that one wants providing covering fire?

One minute spells are blasting the enemy asunder as the melee types go in – the next everything goes quiet as the Sorcerer keels over dead or simply stops casting because he ‘needs to cool off a bit’.

Either that or the Sorcerer does subpar damage in order to avoid ‘overheating’.

I’m thinking here that fights are going to be among groups and take longer to finish than in eg WoW.

Lastly, if our healer is stuck in melee keeping the front line going, how is he going to heal the silly Sorcerer who wants to stand off at range? I would think that if a class is prone to nuking itself (and thus being wide open to becoming an easy kill) they might need more baby sitting.

So will Squig Herders and Chaos RDPS be more favoured than Sorcerers for example? Or do you think that the mechanics revealed so far point to a fair spread of RDPS types for Destruction?

For example, at the moment I’m favouring the Squig Herder because I’ll be constantly doing something – I don’t like the idea of having to stop casting at a critical moment and stand about waiting for my ‘overchange’ meter to drain.

(Please note, I’m sure Mythic have something dashed clever up it’s sleeves. Obviously we don’t’ have all the facts but I’m interested in other people’s speculations up to this point.)

I see very interesting situations in PvP and RvR stemming from this mechanic. For example, you need to squeeze off one more shot to kill someone, and there is a chance that you will not be able to finish them. The chance is always a good and refreshing way to fight.

Also, I see interesting scenarios like this: You are getting killed by your opponent. You are almost dead. You fire one last bolt of Dark Magic, and it backfires and kills you (assuming that it can kill you) and robs your opponent of the kill!

[impulsebooks]

I think this aspect of the sorceress makes the class more attractive not less. I nearly always play ranged dps, and prefer magic over throwing or firing weapons. I will certainly be rolling my Magus for Destro, and probably Bright Wizard for an alt. Also, the dwarf engineer looks great to me.

BUT... this new mechanic for the sorceress may well make me rethink Magus for my main. I don't like the way I can't get off my disc and would have chosen a different destro ranged class because of that, but I couldn't see an alternative class that I liked more until sorcerer/ess was announced.

The blowing up thing only makes the class more challenging (and therefore desirable) to me. Knowing when to nuke and when not to has always been part of playing a mage type class well. Those who played mages in WOW guild raids will know what I mean when I say pacing yourself was a must. Those mana bars could empty really fast. Over nuking and stealing aggro was all too easy at times. I like playing something that needs a little thought and dies easy if you don't do it right.

In PVP pacing yourself would seem not to be an issue with the other ranged classes, but with the sorcereress I can see my old "mage skills" (hehehe) coming back into play.

[Hnul]

I think that I am going to play a little druchii roulette of my own and play the sorceress at launch instead of the choppa as I had intended ;)

I'm sure that it is like Xurré suggests, that you have both dark magic and.. non dark magic, so you won't have to sit around and do nothing while you reduce the chance of blowing your head off. Mythic wouldn't do that.

[pzykozis]

I think this aspect of the sorceress makes the class more attractive not less. I nearly always play ranged dps, and prefer magic over throwing or firing weapons. I will certainly be rolling my Magus for Destro, and probably Bright Wizard for an alt. Also, the dwarf engineer looks great to me.

BUT... this new mechanic for the sorceress may well make me rethink Magus for my main. I don't like the way I can't get off my disc and would have chosen a different destro ranged class because of that, but I couldn't see an alternative class that I liked more until sorcerer/ess was announced.

The blowing up thing only makes the class more challenging (and therefore desirable) to me. Knowing when to nuke and when not to has always been part of playing a mage type class well. Those who played mages in WOW guild raids will know what I mean when I say pacing yourself was a must. Those mana bars could empty really fast. Over nuking and stealing aggro was all too easy at times. I like playing something that needs a little thought and dies easy if you don't do it right.

In PVP pacing yourself would seem not to be an issue with the other ranged classes, but with the sorcereress I can see my old "mage skills" (hehehe) coming back into play.

QFT the mechanic indeed does make the sorcerer / ess a lot more interesting

[Tae]

I personally hate it - both from a lore standpoint and a mechanic standpoint.

Lorewise it's just awful. Dark Elves are, with the exception of Slaan, the safest casters out there. They get +1 to their casting values, most of their spells are easier to cast without the +1, that makes miscasts much less likely than any other army (of those who do normal casting i.e. not undead).

So whilst Dark Magic itself might be more dangerous, the people who wield it have spent hundreds of years practicing. They're far less likely to blow themselves up than some Bright Wizard who's been studying for less than 3 decades.

Mechanic wise, can't say I find a randomness factor that appealing - and certainly not for such a major aspect (i.e. the DPS). Yes it will be a challenge, but after a while it will just get annoying.

Now if I was playing as a Shaman I'd accept it because frankly I'm a goblin. If I didn't like such randomness I shouldn't be playing a greenskin. Druchii are the farthest from random of all races (again, apart from the Slaan). Cunning, intelligent, skillful. They do not do random.

[Arkane]

I personally hate it - both from a lore standpoint and a mechanic standpoint.

Lorewise it's just awful. Dark Elves are, with the exception of Slaan, the safest casters out there. They get +1 to their casting values, most of their spells are easier to cast without the +1, that makes miscasts much less likely than any other army (of those who do normal casting i.e. not undead).

So whilst Dark Magic itself might be more dangerous, the people who wield it have spent hundreds of years practicing. They're far less likely to blow themselves up than some Bright Wizard who's been studying for less than 3 decades.

Mechanic wise, can't say I find a randomness factor that appealing - and certainly not for such a major aspect (i.e. the DPS). Yes it will be a challenge, but after a while it will just get annoying.

Now if I was playing as a Shaman I'd accept it because frankly I'm a goblin. If I didn't like such randomness I shouldn't be playing a greenskin. Druchii are the farthest from random of all races (again, apart from the Slaan). Cunning, intelligent, skillful. They do not do random.
I understand the lore argument, but how can you not like a mechanic you have never tried? How do you know this mechanic will get annoying after a while? But then again, I guess you can say that about EVERY MECHANIC is EVERY SINGLE MMO. I mean, the more you do something over and over, the less appeal it has after a while. At least this mechanic is different, what mechanic does the Squig and Magus operate under? Mechanics that have been beaten to death in past mmorpgs.

[Tae]

Arkane;562555']I understand the lore argument, but how can you not like a mechanic you have never tried? How do you know this mechanic will get annoying after a while? But then again, I guess you can say that about EVERY MECHANIC is EVERY SINGLE MMO. I mean, the more you do something over and over, the less appeal it has after a while. At least this mechanic is different, what mechanic does the Squig and Magus operate under? Mechanics that have been beaten to death in past mmorpgs.

I know the mechanic will get annoying because I know I do not like unpredictability. I know that having my character damaging herself in a completely random fashion is going to annoy me. It has in every other instance I've played (both PC games and, indeed, the tabletop itself - hence why I don't use Skaven or Greenskns in the TT, the random self-harm just annoys the crap out of me).

This isn't to say the mechanic is a bad one or indeed that it's a good one. I'm simply saying is that it's one that I don't like the sound of and, if it operates even remotely like the way they made it sound, one that I know I wont like playing.

[Sinfjotle]

Just because it's new doesn't make it good.

Being hurt for dealing damage is silly, my spells better be damn powerful and I should be able to beat everyone for raw (theoretical) DPS if I might keel over or deal damage to myself.

[Arkane]

Just because it's new doesn't make it good.

Being hurt for dealing damage is silly, my spells better be damn powerful and I should be able to beat everyone for raw (theoretical) DPS if I might keel over or deal damage to myself.
Which is likely how it will be.

[Ranti]

Random = boring horrible game design

I hate Chance to proc or PPM type effects, they take control away from the player and are essentially boring "Oh yeah I won because I got a 10% chance to proc effect to actually proc yeah yeah!!! I R L337"

if it is boring sorcs will not be an alt, hell I probably won't even group with them because they will be to unpredictable to heal

[Arkane]

Random = boring horrible game design

I hate Chance to proc or PPM type effects, they take control away from the player and are essentially boring "Oh yeah I won because I got a 10% chance to proc effect to actually proc yeah yeah!!! I R L337"

if it is boring sorcs will not be an alt, hell I probably won't even group with them because they will be to unpredictable to heal
There will more than likely be non dark magic spells that do not hurt you.

[Kellaris]

I imagine that if I have limited number of spells I can cast comparing to bright wizard, my spells have to be more powerful to make things balanced. That kind of deal is ok for me. Bright Wizard is a machine gun, I'm a sniper. Bright have to "fire" spells as fast as possible, I have a time to be cool and find a right spot to unleash hell.
Before I have seen this mechanic, I have never considered playing sorcerer. Now, I'm sure it will be my alt.

[scrotumus]

i'd be willing to bet that mythic puts in some sort of potion or item that resets you and keeps you from overheating and blowing up. Although the item would have to have a decent cooldown.

[Desdren]

I dont see the problem, The more you tap into Dark magic the more damage you can deal.

"But what if i Die waaaaah buhu"

What if you one shot three people in a row because you ooze so much Destructive magic i bet you wouldn't be complaining then. My guess is this. dark elf sorcerer is going to have massive burst damage potential and Moderate to low sustained dps, if you want to start pulling out massive nukes that dwarf other ranged DPS then you will have to pay the price.

I like it and will be playing it, you all make it sound like the class can't do a lick of damage without it's head exploding.

[Slash]

It won't be random for 1. Secondly I think its a great idea, obviously to be competitive they would need to add more damage to sorc spells or have them create and uber debuff.

Also this 'Down Time" would seem like the perfect opportunity to get the hell away from anything thats attacking you, basically giving you time to focus on where and how your going to attack once your risk bar (sorry for bad terminology, due to lack of a better word), is back to a safe level.

In addition one would have opportunity to risk inflicting damage to ones self, to do MONSTER damage.

All in all I think the mechanic is very exciting and will be very interesting :mrgreen:

[Arkane]

It won't be random for 1. Secondly I think its a great idea, obviously to be competitive they would need to add more damage to sorc spells or have them create and uber debuff.

Also this 'Down Time" would seem like the perfect opportunity to get the hell away from anything thats attacking you, basically giving you time to focus on where and how your going to attack once your risk bar (sorry for bad terminology, due to lack of a better word), is back to a safe level.

In addition one would have opportunity to risk inflicting damage to ones self, to do MONSTER damage.

All in all I think the mechanic is very exciting and will be very interesting :mrgreen:

There will more than likely be a set of spells that are not Dark Magic as well that do not affect the bar at all, which makes for even less downtime.

[Grrblt]

I don't think it will be random per se. I think you will have a bar filling up every time you cast a spell, and at say 80% you start recieving small amounts of self-damage from your spell. If it's at 90% you recieve more damage and at 100% you recieve a lot of damage. Good Sorc players will learn to keep it just below 80% and only go over when they have a chance to kill.

[Slash]

Arkane;563541']There will more than likely be a set of spells that are not Dark Magic as well that do not affect the bar at all, which makes for even less downtime.

I totally agree, this will most likely be the case. I do, however, hope there are some more utility based spells involved there. Doing great burst dps is great, but if you have no means to protect yourself.....:???:<----(the face says it all ;))

[OnyxBMW]

I'd like to argue, since people are bringing up other spell types than just Dark Magic, that maybe the lore for the Druchii aren't as in control as the lore suggests, but they don't blow up every day because they know how and when to use the spells that give them personal risk, since they've had years upon years of practice to get it right.

I mean, if you look at it this way, they could always be at risk of self explosion, they just rarely, if ever, do self explode (in the lore) because they know what the limits are, and know when they should/shouldn't be crossed.

If you look at it this way, it isn't so much as a far stretch to imply that Dark Elves do have the potential to blow themselves up, they just, y'know, don't.

[Arkane]

I'd like to argue, since people are bringing up other spell types than just Dark Magic, that maybe the lore for the Druchii aren't as in control as the lore suggests, but they don't blow up every day because they know how and when to use the spells that give them personal risk, since they've had years upon years of practice to get it right.

I mean, if you look at it this way, they could always be at risk of self explosion, they just rarely, if ever, do self explode (in the lore) because they know what the limits are, and know when they should/shouldn't be crossed.

If you look at it this way, it isn't so much as a far stretch to imply that Dark Elves do have the potential to blow themselves up, they just, y'know, don't.
That is true, and the ones that do blow up likely did it at an early age, hence why you don't read about them doing it.

[Zoatibix]

If they aren't masters of magic, why the bonus to cast spells?

[Arkane]

If they aren't masters of magic, why the bonus to cast spells?

You don't become a master over night. Master armorsmiths also mess up now and then as well.

[stumbles]

Personally i think Paul just over exaggerated as he always does. I also think the mechanic will be reworked into something much less random and more of a "mechanic," it's almost certain that it will be changed cause those career videos were done a very long time ago.

[Thizz]

if i had to take a good stab at the mechanics...id say it wont be all random. perhaps an "activation" skill, that warrants you, say, 20% more damage, but with that on, you then have a chance of doing damage to yourself.

if im wrong, id still say that'd be a good mechanic, because then you could cast normally, or you could say to yourself, "this guy needs to go down, FAST" and bring upon a chance to hurt yourself, but in return do outstanding damage.



and to the topic question.


fun:rolleyes:

[OnyxBMW]

If they aren't masters of magic, why the bonus to cast spells?

Mastery just comes through practice, and a lot of it. Nothing else gives someone master (barring complete genius where they don't need much practice)

And, a person may be a master blacksmith, but that doesn't mean that the molten (or heated) metals they work with won't maim or kill them if they aren't absolutely careful when forging a sword.

Simply put, the magic is still dangerous to them, and they aren't immune to it at all, so their mastery over magic is just knowing their limits and knowing when it is worth pushing it.

[Dastion]

As long as sorcerers get some sort of lifetap mechanic it shouldn't be too bad, or at the very least they should have normal on-par spells that do not harm them.

It will suck to play a Sorcerer and have times where you down an enemy and cannot even touch the next because you're being hurt.

Anyways, it's one of those things we will just have to see.

[Barocrates]

if i had to take a good stab at the mechanics...id say it wont be all random. perhaps an "activation" skill, that warrants you, say, 20% more damage, but with that on, you then have a chance of doing damage to yourself.


I'm in agreement that it won't (or, at least shouldn't) be completely random. I realize this game is RvR based, but even then, who would want to put their win on a small task force/small-skirmish team in the hands of someone who might blow themselves up if they mount an offense?

I could seel it being for some serious blasty skills, and the "backlash" probably won't be instant death. Would sure be fun to test out in Beta.

[Zoatibix]

[quote=OnyxBMW;564583]Mastery just comes through practice, and a lot of it. [quote]

Ah, I see. So once a Sorcererer hits level 40 they no longer suffer the RR effect? :mrgreen:

[Arkane]

Nope, because you could get to 40 without ever casting Dark Magic.

[Barocrates]

Arkane;565309']Nope, because you could get to 40 without ever casting Dark Magic.

BWUH?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but BWUH?

I didn't think this game had different "schools" of magic within the same archtype - Bright wizard used his own magic, Shaman used his own, etc.

ie, I thought everything a Sorc casts would fall under "Dark magic".

[Arkane]

BWUH?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but BWUH?

I didn't think this game had different "schools" of magic within the same archtype - Bright wizard used his own magic, Shaman used his own, etc.

ie, I thought everything a Sorc casts would fall under "Dark magic".
Nope, there will likely be non Dark Magic spells as well so that not every spell you cast has a chance to do some damage to you.

[Arkane]

For example: the Magus has multiple colors of fire it casts.

[Zoatibix]

Arkane;565309']Nope, because you could get to 40 without ever casting Dark Magic.

And having got to 40 you never cast any Dark Magic spells? :mrgreen:

Remind me not to take you along as RDPS! :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I can understand people thinking that the Druchii mastery of Dark Magic is 'hype' from their own AB...but given that they actually get a TT mechanic that makes them better spellcasters I think the hype argument kinda falls flat.

[Mortissia]

Wait a second. A Sorcess would know how to control Dark Magic. If we play a Sorcess we will know how to control Dark Magic. What does this mean as a game mechanic? It means that we will probably have an indicator that tells us we are reaching a critical point. This lets us know to stop reaking havoc all over the battlefield for a short spell.

We are in control. You are about to take an adventure. You are about to experience the awe which is associated with a journey to - The Outer Limits.

[AlienOverlord]

The mechanic sounds like it belongs more with a Goblin Shaman, or possibly the Magus. In fact the goblin Shaman mechanic, where the more spells they cast the quicker they can do it (less AP usage), sounds more like a Dark Elf mechanic.

But that would make the sorceress a healer too, and we've already been down *that* road :)

[Zoatibix]

Yeah, my impression from Paul's ravings is that the Sorcerer is perfectly safe casting spells in the beginning. The more she casts, the more dangerous her spells become but at a certain threshold a 'random chance mechanic' kicks in which can cause serious harm to the Sorcerer.

[Gundam]

IMO Welcome to the next Warlock, not the WoW one, but the DAoC one. What I predict we will see:
At launch this will be a massively overpowered class because it will do the same dps by the time the meter drains enough as the other classes do, but since it takes less time to do that damage they will just massively nuke people and as a result Mythic will nerf the class so it isn't a very useful class for anything unless you are 40 and geared. Then it will never get fixed, just the the Warlock.

Personally I agree with the majority of this thread, the sorceress is the master of dark magic, she is not a goblin who throws around magic haphazardly. This mechanic violates the lore and will just be a problem. (The fact that they have this mechanic doubly violates the lore because now they have to break it to make up a healer because the only lore candidate has been ruined to fill different a slot which had a good number of lore competition already.)

[Arkane]

IMO Welcome to the next Warlock, not the WoW one, but the DAoC one. What I predict we will see:
At launch this will be a massively overpowered class because it will do the same dps by the time the meter drains enough as the other classes do, but since it takes less time to do that damage they will just massively nuke people and as a result Mythic will nerf the class so it isn't a very useful class for anything unless you are 40 and geared. Then it will never get fixed, just the the Warlock.

Personally I agree with the majority of this thread, the sorceress is the master of dark magic, she is not a goblin who throws around magic haphazardly. This mechanic violates the lore and will just be a problem. (The fact that they have this mechanic doubly violates the lore because now they have to break it to make up a healer because the only lore candidate has been ruined to fill different a slot which had a good number of lore competition already.)

*Sigh* When it comes to MMOs, lore loses to fun and uniqueness and balance 9 times out of 10.

[Xurré]

Arkane;565934']*Sigh* When it comes to MMOs, lore loses to fun and uniqueness and balance 9 times out of 10.
Haven't we been over this already? Lore and "fun and uniqueness" aren't mutually exclusive.


- Xurré

[Arkane]

Yes, you and I have...

[Barocrates]

Arkane;565955']Yes, you and I have...

I didn't realize that was an exclusive topic. I thought "Story" and "interesting" and "balance" was pretty widely accepted as hand-in-hand with the current IP?

Not re-opening yet another argument, just, did someone think a Shade as the DPS and a Sorc as the healer was "uninteresting" or "imbalanced"*?

Edit: *Oh right, duh, melee healer.

[Barocrates]

Arkane;565329']For example: the Magus has multiple colors of fire it casts.

but "Black fire" and "Red fire" are not seperate schools. I'm sure those both fall under "Chaos magic" - you're not going to see "Resistance to yellow fire: 0/100", "Resistance to Black fire: 0/100", etc.

Edit: Wanted to include this in the previous post but I can't seem to find the delete post button.

[Arkane]

I didn't realize that was an exclusive topic. I thought "Story" and "interesting" and "balance" was pretty widely accepted as hand-in-hand with the current IP?

Not re-opening yet another argument, just, did someone think a Shade as the DPS and a Sorc as the healer was "uninteresting" or "imbalanced"*?

Edit: *Oh right, duh, melee healer.

On the topic of imbalanced, yes, giving the Destruction a Healer that could kill himself from healing would be horribly imbalanced compared to the Order.

Edit: She asked if we went over this already, I said yes we did. I never claimed it was an exclusive conversation. Way to try and twist my words.

[Arkane]

but "Black fire" and "Red fire" are not seperate schools. I'm sure those both fall under "Chaos magic" - you're not going to see "Resistance to yellow fire: 0/100", "Resistance to Black fire: 0/100", etc.

Edit: Wanted to include this in the previous post but I can't seem to find the delete post button.

That is correct, but I would be willing to bet you that they will cast magic other than Dark Magic, just as I was willing to bet that Sorc was Ranged DPS.

[Barocrates]

Arkane;566034']On the topic of imbalanced, yes, giving the Destruction a Healer that could kill himself from healing would be horribly imbalanced compared to the Order.

Edit: She asked if we went over this already, I said yes we did. I never claimed it was an exclusive conversation. Way to try and twist my words.

1: Who was to say the mechanic would have been "killing themselves" to begin with? This was introduced with Paul's podcast.

2:I wasn't trying to twist anyone's words, so please don't be defensive. I had thought it was a comment showing you both "understood" that the lore could still be interesting and balanced despite the amount of arguing that goes on.

[Arkane]

1: Who was to say the mechanic would have been "killing themselves" to begin with? This was introduced with Paul's podcast.

2:I wasn't trying to twist anyone's words, so please don't be defensive. I had thought it was a comment showing you both "understood" that the lore could still be interesting and balanced despite the amount of arguing that goes on.

If you can damage yourself, you can eventually kill yourself.

EDIT: Wanted to add that if you can not kill yourself, it could become overpowered in PVE situations during raids as they could just stay at 1 health and do a ton of dps with their bar being completely filled. Once a group of mobs gathered up to attack the tank, two or three Sorcs would just do a single AOE and bye bye mobs. You can't miscast and do 0 damage to yourself just because you are at 1 health.

[Serke lasse]

I personally hate it - both from a lore standpoint and a mechanic standpoint.


:confused: Its the most warhammery of any of the spell casting mechanics thus far IMO. Any magic use taps the Warp... weird stuff can happen. The current Pen and Paper RPG spell casting mechanics are the best game implementation of Warhammer magic I've seen.

Honestly I was a tad disappointed that Mythic went with the MMO standard Mana-bar for all the spell casters. Not surprised, since implementing anything like the RPG has wouldn't work well for an MMO.

The unpredictability of the Warhammer spell casters is one of the things that differentiates Warhammer from other fantasy games. I'd like to see more of that in the MMO.

[Barocrates]

Arkane;566057']If you can damage yourself, you can eventually kill yourself.



I don't think you're even addressing my basic point. You're saying "it would have been imbalanced for Destruction to have a healer that can kill themselves without order having such a negative". I'm not arguing this, I'm agreeing.

My point is that, why would the healer, or ranged DPSer, ever -have- to have such a gimmick? They DO now, as introduced by Paul, but I don't think anyone ever believed such a mechanic was ever going to be a part of the game.


The unpredictability of the Warhammer spell casters is one of the things that differentiates Warhammer from other fantasy games. I'd like to see more of that in the MMO.


Yes, but the unpredictability you're naming was not an attribute of the race they gave it to. It's actually one of the RULES of a goblin shaman on TT.

[Foofmonger]

I think, and this is pure speculation, that it’s actually just the Dark Magic spells which are dangerous and that the other magic spells are safe (allowing you to cool off). As such the dark magic spells would be a lot more powerful, but carry risk with them the more you use them while the other spells are safer, but weaker. Thus the Sorceress would be continually busy, but would need to balance using her heavy hitters against her more general spells. Having the class do nothing for a while would be a silly mechanic.

I also think that it won’t be a sudden-death kinda thing (that would be beyond stupid). Just that the more you use the spells the more damage you get if the random chance of getting damage happens. Basically it’d be a sign of “ok, maybe you’re going too far now” and leave the player playing roulette with how far they’re willing to push it before cooling off.

But yeah, it doesn’t sounds like a particularly fun mechanic being a slave to randomness like that at all and I also don’t think it’s particularly well suited for the Sorceress. Thematically would’ve been great for greenskins (for example), it just doesn’t suit dark elves all that well.


- Xurré

I really like this Xurre, I think its pretty accurate.

The only point I don't agree with you on is that the Sorc would be a "slave to randomness".

Think of it this way, as you state, the Sorc decides what magic to use (obviously), and only some spells may do damage when used. So it seems likely that it isn't a case of the sorc being a slave, but rather, deciding to value the destruction of her enemies more then her own life.

I think the sorc would obviously know that the spells they were using were dangerous, and would be making a conscious decision to disregard her own saftey for more destructive power (if the player so choose to). They would also make a conscious decision to "cool-off", use different magic, and play it safe.

[Dustandpolos]

I'm not sure this is particularly unfitting for Dark Elves. Sure, I'd expect Greenskins to have something similar, but Dark Magic is indisputable one of the more dangerous lores; I always assumed it was a purer magic, like High Magic, but without the safety elements, following the philosophy that restraint is weakness. Although there is no specific 'Dark Magic is dangerous' rule in TT, all magic is inherantly very dangerous (thus actually in TT any wizard can suffer serious damage from losing control while attempting a powerful spell - miscast table!) and there must be examples of sorceresses attempting to harness the raw power of Chaos only for it to rip them apart, or a daemonic pact backfiring. Seems only to make sense that playing with magic of the purity and strength of Dark Magic would be more dangerous than the more crafted and controlled, but as a result generally more subtle and less massively destructive, High Magic.

As far as how irritating it'll be, I expect it will be very frustrating to very serious players who consider their kill/death ratio the be-all and end-all. But to people approaching it in a more casual, or dare I say light-hearted, way, who doesn't love the excitement of a small gamble? Adds to the tension when you throw out that Black Horror for the 4th time running - how far can I push it? It's not like it's taken out of your hands really either; the decision of whether to take the risk would be an informed one, and would encourage the player to think carefully about when to apply the overwhelming force they can draw upon, and when to hold back.

It's actually a big advantge being offered to the Druchii. Think of it like a cool-down; it prevents you from spamming powerful abilities, encouraging you to pick your moments carefully, but if you use your ability then an even more dire situation comes about, you have the option of ignoring the cooldown at some risk to yourself. So actually it gives the player more control over their character, while giving the player something else (risk factor vs needs of battle) to think about. Sounds great to me!

[Serke lasse]

Yes, but the unpredictability you're naming was not an attribute of the race they gave it to. It's actually one of the RULES of a goblin shaman on TT.

I was speaking of Warhammer spellcasting in general. In any case the TT rules are different than the RPG rules. In the RPG rules Dhar Magic is even more likely to invoke Tzeentch's curse. You're able to cast more powerful spells, but at a greater risk.

I suspect though that the TT miscasts are uncommon, but spectacular. In the RPG side effects pop up frequently, but are generally minor and only occasionally serious. The TT game doesn't care if a spellcaster's eyes glow, or kill all the plants within 10 feet. The RPG is a tad more detailed, so will detail the little things the TT game abstracts.

*shrug* Like I said, slightly disappointed that Mythic went with the standard blue bar, but an MMO is a different sorta beast than an RPG or TT game.

[Ranti]

Arkane;565326']Nope, there will likely be non Dark Magic spells as well so that not every spell you cast has a chance to do some damage to you.

This is HIGHLY speculative

The different colors of fire the magus use, are still under the same lore, that being Tzeetch, whom controls all of these flames

[Estebar]

This is HIGHLY speculative

The different colors of fire the magus use, are still under the same lore, that being Tzeetch, whom controls all of these flames But Paul did mention death magic, as well as dark magic, in his Podcast. There was a differentiation made.

[Ranti]

:confused: Its the most warhammery of any of the spell casting mechanics thus far IMO. Any magic use taps the Warp... weird stuff can happen. The current Pen and Paper RPG spell casting mechanics are the best game implementation of Warhammer magic I've seen.

Honestly I was a tad disappointed that Mythic went with the MMO standard Mana-bar for all the spell casters. Not surprised, since implementing anything like the RPG has wouldn't work well for an MMO.

The unpredictability of the Warhammer spell casters is one of the things that differentiates Warhammer from other fantasy games. I'd like to see more of that in the MMO.

All player careers in Warhammer use an Action points bar, that is similar to rogues energy bar in WoW, there is also a separate Morale bar, which is similar to warriors rage in WoW, finally several classes have a 3rd bar which is unique to them. But no class has a "mana" bar type configuration, there is no Large recourses pools that regenerate slowly kinda deal.

Furthermore, this will blur the line between "casters" and "non-casters" in that everyone uses this set up. So I don't see how this is anything close to what other MMOs have done

[Arkane]

This is HIGHLY speculative

The different colors of fire the magus use, are still under the same lore, that being Tzeetch, whom controls all of these flames
What makes this HIGHLY speculative as opposed to almost anything else we speculate here? Such as what the Support career will be? Also, what makes YOU think that they will only give the Sorceress spells that can hurt them?

[Tae]

:confused: Its the most warhammery of any of the spell casting mechanics thus far IMO. Any magic use taps the Warp... weird stuff can happen. The current Pen and Paper RPG spell casting mechanics are the best game implementation of Warhammer magic I've seen.

Honestly I was a tad disappointed that Mythic went with the MMO standard Mana-bar for all the spell casters. Not surprised, since implementing anything like the RPG has wouldn't work well for an MMO.

The unpredictability of the Warhammer spell casters is one of the things that differentiates Warhammer from other fantasy games. I'd like to see more of that in the MMO.

Yes, Warhammer spellcasting is a dangerous business.

But from a lore point of view the Druchii are masters are controlling it. Sure they're not perfect, but no one is (well apart from the Slaan).

My problem isn't with Mythic making the Sorceress blow up (though I personally dislike random elements in game mechanics), but the fact that they've made (TT wise) the safest spellcasting race/class the only one who's prone to explode.

Make Sorceresses get burned with Dark Magic? Sure.

But don't try telling me that the Bright Wizard never sets himself on fire, or that the Goblin Shaman's head never explodes, as both of those are an *expletive* damn sight more likely than a Druchii hurting herself.

[Smarticus]

The crux of the matter seems to be this: If I load up the game for the for the first time, roll a sorceror, and enter the playing field, will the first spell I ever cast have a chance (however small) to kill me before I've ever done anything (not to mention every spell I ever cast after that?)

I can't believe anyone would design a game mechanic like that (to bolster my argument, I appeal to an obscure and little used principle known as "common sense"). I know Paul compared it to Russian Roulette, but he didn't say *exactly* how it worked; imo he was rather vague about it.

The way I see it, there are two ways to implement this. The first way is an "overdrive" mechanic. There is a certain level of power you can use safely, but if you wish you can increase it into the "red zone" (think of Spinal Tap--the sorceror's amps go to 11!). When you're in the red zone, the spell is more powerful but may backfire. Normally this is avoided, but sometimes when the group is fighting a really tough mob, they may ask you to "take one for the team" to finish it off. Or in a tough pvp fight, when you're about to die, and figure you have nothing to lose by "red lining" it.

The second way is an "overheat" bar. The more dangerous magic you use, the more this bar fills up until it reaches dangerous levels, at which point the spells have a chance to backfire. When you see that the bar is getting too high, you use some kind of skill or spell that lowers it, switch to a different scool of magic, use safer spells, or take a break.

Just my two cents.

[Arkane]

The crux of the matter seems to be this: If I load up the game for the for the first time, roll a sorceror, and enter the playing field, will the first spell I ever cast have a chance (however small) to kill me before I've ever done anything (not to mention every spell I ever cast after that?)


The second way is an "overheat" bar. The more dangerous magic you use, the more this bar fills up until it reaches dangerous levels, at which point the spells have a chance to backfire. When you see that the bar is getting too high, you use some kind of skill or spell that lowers it, switch to a different scool of magic, use safer spells, or take a break.

Just my two cents.

I doubt it is completely random and I would think your first spell would be a safe one and that your overheat bar example is spot on.

[Zeldias]

I kind of enjoy it. Everything I've read about Dark Elves suggests that if you abuse Dark Magic too much, bad things start to happen. I don't think every spell is going to carry this threat, though, because that would mean that Sorcs would have to have enormous burst damage in order to counter the fact that there's always a chance they'll turn up dead/wounded on the next cast.

I'm thinking there's going to be spells that are slightly weaker, spells that are slightly stronger, and a "overheat" gauge. Weaker spells won't affect the gauge, but the more powerful ones will, so, for a while, you can blast the crap out of people, but eventually, the abuse of Dhar will catch up and cook you. Kind of reminds me of Malus Darkblade's sister; the one who opened up all that Chaos and Dhar power then created a huge storm of magic that burned through stone.

I kind of like the chance of damage. I'd like it to be balanced out with a higher chance to crit or something, but I like classes that gamble on things like crits and so on. Adding on more element to the gamble makes it more interesting for me.

[Serke lasse]

But don't try telling me that the Bright Wizard never sets himself on fire, or that the Goblin Shaman's head never explodes, as both of those are an *expletive* damn sight more likely than a Druchii hurting herself.


I think that no side effects of spell casting was a lost oppoutunity for some fantastic Warhammer humor. Especially for the Gobo shaman. Could have been some real side-splitting moments.

[Serke lasse]

All player careers in Warhammer use an Action points bar, that is similar to rogues energy bar in WoW, there is also a separate Morale bar, which is similar to warriors rage in WoW, finally several classes have a 3rd bar which is unique to them. But no class has a "mana" bar type configuration, there is no Large recourses pools that regenerate slowly kinda deal.

Furthermore, this will blur the line between "casters" and "non-casters" in that everyone uses this set up. So I don't see how this is anything close to what other MMOs have done

:roll:

You can call your Blue bar Action points, Mana, Magic points, Stamina, Manuver points, endurance.... heck, you can call it a Cookie Jar. You can turn your blue bar a different color, make it a bulb that fills with liquid, a number line, a simple interger display or even a tiny little gremlin sitting on your cookie jar that throws a little fit when you run out of yummie cookies.

It is the exact same mechanic. You've got a pool of X points that comes back at Y amount in Z time. Its been used since the dawn of Video games, in RPGs before that, and you can probably find other games that used a similar mechanic before the RPG scene took off in the 70s/80s. "A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet." and all that.

Dang kids...

[Dustandpolos]

Action Points are not mana. As I understand they are used for everything, not just special spells. Waaagh! or Hatred or other such bars are not mana either. While casting certain spells uses it up, the difference in how it's generated makes it completely different to a mana bar; if you must compare it, it's more similar to the rage bar in WoW. Thing is, two mechanics can sound very similar but the tiniest difference changes the whole way they work. Lumping action points, mana, stamina etc in together is like saying there's no difference between a persian cat and a snow leopard, because they're both basically white and feline.

And I know you weren't suggesting it, but a winds of magic system similar to TT with a common pool of magic would suck; can you imagine how pissed off people would get about team-mates using up all the magic and leaving them unable to do anything? You can argue that it would reward good teamwork, but in the majority of cases it would result in magic-based characters standing around helpless for at least part of the battle and pouring abuse on their own side. Plus, why would anyone go magic dps when bow dps suffered none of the same problems?

[shoi]

i think that the sorceress will be the hardest burst damage dealer for the RDPS classes....
i doubt though that they will ever be out of combat, just that they can only use their more powerful spells occasionally as to not seriously damage themselves

[Zihark]

I doubt it will be random, really. It won't work out. I predict, or belive myself that there will be some "meter" that will gradually going upwards when you continue doing dps, when it reaches 100% you will start taking damage (maybe 5-15% or so per spell of your total hp, but unable to kill you completley) and that's your sign to cool down your dps, and when you don't cast, the bar will drop quickly down to zero again (maybe 5 seconds wait to go down to zero) and if you continue casting spells, it will increase (if you have no wait time between your spells, it will increase by like, 5% per spell, but if you wait maybe like, 0.5 sec it will start dropping)

This is how I hope myself that it will be, this way it will be intresting and very tactical weapon to use. Obviously, as dark elves might hurt themselves when casting, their average spell should hurt more then others average spell

[Serke lasse]

Action Points are not mana. As I understand they are used for everything, not just special spells. Waaagh! or Hatred or other such bars are not mana either. While casting certain spells uses it up, the difference in how it's generated makes it completely different to a mana bar; if you must compare it, it's more similar to the rage bar in WoW. Thing is, two mechanics can sound very similar but the tiniest difference changes the whole way they work. Lumping action points, mana, stamina etc in together is like saying there's no difference between a persian cat and a snow leopard, because they're both basically white and feline.



/begin thread de-rail

Action points are a pool of points that your character spends to activate abilities. These action points come back over time. This is the exact same mechanic as Endurance in CoX, Mana in GW & Diablo, Magic points in FF.... lots of games use this mechanic. The pool of points may have a different number, the relative cost to activate abilities is different, the regen rate is different, but its the same mechanic. Its like saying the Sunset in Hawaii is a different Sunset than one in the Rockies. Different asthetic, same sun.

WAR also has the Morale bar that builds during combat, and the various classes have another bar that builds based on some in game event. These build & relese, or build and buff type of mechinisms are in pleanty of games as well. LoTro, GW, CoX, FF all have them.

A snow lepord and a persian may not be the same species, they are the same Genus. They have obvious phenotypical similarities, similar habits, and many common genitic traits. Anyone looking at either one would be able to say "thats a cat".

/end thread de-rail

[OnyxBMW]

:roll:

You can call your Blue bar Action points, Mana, Magic points, Stamina, Manuver points, endurance.... heck, you can call it a Cookie Jar. You can turn your blue bar a different color, make it a bulb that fills with liquid, a number line, a simple interger display or even a tiny little gremlin sitting on your cookie jar that throws a little fit when you run out of yummie cookies.

It is the exact same mechanic. You've got a pool of X points that comes back at Y amount in Z time. Its been used since the dawn of Video games, in RPGs before that, and you can probably find other games that used a similar mechanic before the RPG scene took off in the 70s/80s. "A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet." and all that.

Dang kids...

Wait, so the bar increases by a large chunk every couple seconds? Or is it more like Guild War's version of Energy, where it trickles in at a pre-set amount at all times as opposed to WoW's pre-set amount at intervals?

I love semantics...but I hope it is like GW's version.

[Serke lasse]

Wait, so the bar increases by a large chunk every couple seconds? Or is it more like Guild War's version of Energy, where it trickles in at a pre-set amount at all times as opposed to WoW's pre-set amount at intervals?

I love semantics...but I hope it is like GW's version.

The folks who got to play at the various events have said the Action points come back very quickly. Folks who played the lower level characters have said they actually can't run out, since the pre-made characters didn't have enough abilities to have a complete chain.

It has been stated that out of combat regen is very quick. Health and action points both fill to max almost right away. (I'm guessing somewhere around 10 to 15 seconds from 1 to full once you're out of combat) In combat health and action points come back slower, from the demos I've seen you can chain abiilties for a long time before you run out. There will be many abilities that modify the recovery rate of any of your character's health, action, moral, or special abilities.

[Arkane]

The folks who got to play at the various events have said the Action points come back very quickly. Folks who played the lower level characters have said they actually can't run out, since the pre-made characters didn't have enough abilities to have a complete chain.

It has been stated that out of combat regen is very quick. Health and action points both fill to max almost right away. (I'm guessing somewhere around 10 to 15 seconds from 1 to full once you're out of combat) In combat health and action points come back slower, from the demos I've seen you can chain abiilties for a long time before you run out. There will be many abilities that modify the recovery rate of any of your character's health, action, moral, or special abilities.

Over at Only-WAR they have a thread about one of the events stating that it took 6-8 seconds to regen to full out of combat in low level areas. I have gone to the events as well and would like to confirm the really fast regen rates.

[Tae]

I think that no side effects of spell casting was a lost oppoutunity for some fantastic Warhammer humor. Especially for the Gobo shaman. Could have been some real side-splitting moments.

Making Goblin Shamans explode, I can understand.

Making all casters explode, I can understand.

Making the most proficient users of magic outside of the Slaan explode, I neithet can nor want to understand.

[Rerisen]

I think people may be overreacting somewhat.

I see the self damaging mechanic as not so much being a totally random thing where your own magic blasts you for big damage, but more of a threshold type deal. In other words, the Sorceress can cast up to a certain point (probably in close balance to the other casters) without much fear of harm but then once she reaches that threshold (that might be shown in some way), it will be up to the player's choice whether they want to go easy on the spellcasting (maybe with less powerful spells?) or else take a risk on increasing your damage beyond what other classes can do, but suffering the chance of hurting yourself in the process.

As far as being a hindrance to your team or healers, I think the mechanic of a WoW Warlock using life-tap might be very similar. Only in that case you had a bit more exact control of when and how much you would hurt yourself for the gain of getting more spells off.

[Arkane]

Making Goblin Shamans explode, I can understand.

Making all casters explode, I can understand.

Making the most proficient users of magic outside of the Slaan explode, I neithet can nor want to understand.
Aren't you contradicting yourself a tiny bit? You say you can understand them making all casters explode, so why is it non understandable for Dark Elves?

[Smarticus]

Making the most proficient users of magic outside of the Slaan explode, I neither can nor want to understand.

What we're trying to say is that it's a *choice*. I don't think the Sorceror has to put themelves at risk unless they want to. On the tabletop, DE sorceror's are operating as part of a military unit and are under strict orders not to do anything dangerous with their magic.

In WAR, the sorceror has much more freedom to do as he/she wishes, and if some want to push the envelope with their magic, hey, it's up to them. There's no field commander telling them what to do this time; many will relish their newfound freedom to use dangerous magic and get carried away.

Just beause it *adds* to the lore doesn't mean it *contradicts* the lore.