I'll take the first crack at it, Hybrid Healers. *Ducks*

[Tak'zenen]

After having my account inaccessible for a couple weeks due to problems with Bank of America, I was finally able to RvR on my T3 alt(destro) for the first time since 1.1b came out.

One thing I noticed was, Hybrid healers hit like trucks and heal like(if not better) than Zealots/RPs.

Now, I know they're meant to do that damage. They trade the comfort of range for up close and personal melee combat, putting themselves directly in danger. I realize they have an instant HoT and a Casted DH followed by a HoT, but those heals are terrible and eat through SE/DF like a knife through butter.

I'm wondering if they're performing a little too well. Put 3 of these classes together in front of competent players, and you have a pretty much unkillable 3 man squad that can really lay some hurt.

Timing their channeled attacks/heal defensive target abilities correctly they can heal through most FF, combined with timely use of Rank 1 morales.

This is only from a Destro stand point. I have not faced a DoK past tier 1, but the two classes are almost exact mirrors so I can figure it's very much the same for Order. I would push to say that WP is *better* spike healing because they're using a 2h'r instead of DWing, and it only makes sense a 2h'r will hit harder than DW. I'm not saying that's true, I don't know.


I'm just wondering if they hit too hard/heal too well(Single target) off of only one stat, str.

Thoughts? Comments? Experiences?

As I said, I'm iffy on this. By all means those two classes should be potent on the battlefield, and I haven't played either to a halfway decent level. I'm not entirely sure of their weaknesses. On top of that, any help would be greatly appreciated :)

[Marklarg]

While I only have a 40 Witch Elf in T4. I have about 3 chars I leveled in T3 and at least a dozen through T2 and I feel that the class was very strong at the lower levels with the armor, damage, and healing of each respective archtype. At higher levels my brother who plays a 40 DoK (we are very solid players) said that their utility and survivability drops in T3 and T4.

It kind of seems that the class HAS to be powerful early on in order to balance out later because of the mechanics. You could say with more abilites every other class catches up to them.

With this new patch with the chalices/tombs though. Now they can sit back and be the most effective healers since they don't rely on AP and can convert it into their RF/SE. Before they were solid group healers but terrible single target. Now they can spam their 1s Group as a single target and be regenning RF/SE as well. Seems like they are not only the best frontline healers but bacline healers as well.

I don't think the hybrids need a nerf, just the chalices/tombs really generate a crazy amount of RF/SE giving them the option to be a healbot which I preferred to give to the Arch/RP since they don't have the same armor/survivability. Maybe they could be looked at (although this will result in a boat load of flames towards me.)

[Acaus]

Yeah the amount of rp / whatever generated through books per second is defenitely going to be getting nerfed. The amount of healing power they have is far higher than what they should have comparatively to the other classes. They constantly beat out RP's despite the fact that rp's should be the highest healers..

[Liang]

Yeah the amount of rp / whatever generated through books per second is defenitely going to be getting nerfed. The amount of healing power they have is far higher than what they should have comparatively to the other classes. They constantly beat out RP's despite the fact that rp's should be the highest healers..

You neglect that AM's should be the highest healers, because they lack any sort of survivability. Also, the group heal isn't that incredibly powerful to reduce the effect of focus fire and/or an assist train.

Simply put, this is another case of someone putting up big numbers without actually making a big difference in the scenario. I think you're just grousing because their group heal fires faster than your HOTs.

-Liang

[Kanggaxx]

They SHOULD have high healing. Think about why other careers should have better healing than us. Is it because we can do damage in melee? That is actually a liability for the hybrid healer, not a reason why his heals should be crappier. A hybrid healer HAS to spec into his healing tree to rival the other healers, and then his damage is pitiful while the other healers can still throw DoT's around from safety. We dont really do heavy damage when heal specced so that argument is invalid.

The problem here is the chalices. We actually dont even need to go in Melee anymore to heal, because the chalice regen is insane. We are given high armor and good absorb bubbles without the need to go melee, making us the most durable ranged healer too.

DoK's needed chalices, they honestly did, but imo they are a bit too much right now. We should have lower SE regen but higher survivability when on the frontlines, and be forced to go to those front lines for our Healing power.

[Deeva]

See, when you said 'hybrid healers' I thought you had been playing your Archmage or Shaman.

Haha.

[Chases Street Demons]

I think that the biggest flaw with the books/chalices is that the per second regen is by far the most important stat there. The rest of the stats scale with level except for that. Ask a WP or DoK if they would use a 1/sec book with 100will power on it or a 12/sec book with 1 willpower on it, and they'll always use the 12/sec book. There's no sense of perspective or growth.

Beyond that, I believe the reliance on healing numbers is sort of off base. Wp/DoK healing numbers are so high because they're "shallow"; there's alot of 200-300 point heals from people healing themselves of splash AoE damage. The group heal is undeniably awesome, but as pointed out...it's not going to save anyone who's the target of an assist train.

[chemicalpoet]

You neglect that AM's should be the highest healers, because they lack any sort of survivability. Also, the group heal isn't that incredibly powerful to reduce the effect of focus fire and/or an assist train.

Simply put, this is another case of someone putting up big numbers without actually making a big difference in the scenario. I think you're just grousing because their group heal fires faster than your HOTs.

-Liang

If you are speaking towards the hybrid's AOE heal, it's quite the opposite actually. Their fully powered AE heal does almost the same amount of healing that that pure healing class's single target bomb does to everyone on your team. If you have two DoK's with this setup, you easily defeat the need to have any other healers around, minus only their slower rez.

I also don't like the idea of DoK/WP being the absolute best AOE healing classes. It, quite frankly, doesn't make a lot of sense, especially when you look at Rune Priest's and Zealot's AOE healing ladders, the DoK/WP alone effectively defeat the purpose in even using these specs. They are hybrids, we are healers. We, as in all "pure" healers, should be best at healing across the board, unless Mythic is panning to give us medium armor that is.

Something is definately a little strange here.

[Mezkh]

You neglect that AM's should be the highest healers, because they lack any sort of survivability. Also, the group heal isn't that incredibly powerful to reduce the effect of focus fire and/or an assist train.

Simply put, this is another case of someone putting up big numbers without actually making a big difference in the scenario. I think you're just grousing because their group heal fires faster than your HOTs.

-Liang

My understanding of the archetype is that Archmage trades survivability for DPS, not for higher healing. Theoretically Healing + DPS + Range = weakest class in terms of survivability.

[Gomez92008]

Ok my take on the whole thing, the buff/normalization was needed. My friend is currently in T3 and going for a heavy Wrath and hybrid grace and Salvation build. A front line healer like the WP and DoK really do need the quick sharp and effective AoE healing capability's because when your on the frontline single target heals aren't going to cut it when your tanks are getting AoE'd down like pigeons.

I however do think the chalice, book regen really needs a look at maybe increase the regen time to about 3 seconds it may stop the heal bots at the back and make them play their character to a greater effect.

And about the Archmage thing surely the Archmage is the best healer seen as it has only one tree to maximize healign but the RP has three to choose from.

My thoughts ;)

[Ashonic]

I agree with Det.


WP/DoK's are....excuse my language.... classes.

You shouldnt be able to do anything as well as someone who specialises in their area... such as an archmage or a whitelion.

jack of all trades ace of none.


but you do need some way to still be viable in RvR, hence why you have trees.
these trees shouldnt bring you on par with other classes, but give you more of a focus.

[Zephris-WHA]

I’d just like to chime in here.

I play a Grace WP, so I can’t comment on the healing power of a Salvation spec WP but what I do know is this. Most of the healing we do is topping off and anti-DOT, that is to say the odd 300hp from our prayer or a tick of our HOT is not actually going to save anyone from anything but it will buff up our score a little and it’ll help keep the entire team topped up.

The two main heals then are DA for spike healing, this heals on average for between 900-1500 per swing and provided you hit with all swings and all connect and you’re attacking a med/low armour target you can expect to heal for a total of 2700-4500 for a total of 75RF (I could be wrong on that number) and with a 8 second cooldown to go with it.

Then you have Divine Strike, this is the group heal for Grace WP’s for me it heals between 500-750 per swing to everyone about me and has a potential to heal for more if I crit. It also builds the RF I need to fire off a spike heal later on.

One thing I know WP’s cannot do is res, if I see someone screaming for a res I do not res them immediately rather I look about for a RP or AM to do it because they can do it better and faster.

Additionally when I’m healing my group its dependant on them being nearby and I cannot heal anyone else, IE someone 20+ft away is not going to get much healing but he might get a DA if he is lucky.

Overall I think the boost to WP healing was needed I think the RF regen is a little high and I have no objections if mythic decide to alter it later. That said I don’t see a problem with them being competitive with RP/AM’s but one thing we should all remember is this -

There is a finite amount of healing that needs to be done in a scenario. I’ve seen it and I’m sure all other healers have to, you get one or maybe two awesome healers in there with twitchy reflexes and there is simply nothing left to heal, so to my mind much of the reason we see WP’s ahead of AM/RP on the scoreboards is simply because the WP can and does instantly snap up any small/free points of damage that need healing leaving only the spike and major healing to the AM/RP which is fine and what they should be doing.

What is wrong to my mind however is this, when I play my WP to evaluate my own play I add up the damage done (usually about 40-60k) and the healing done (120-180k) and set that as my overall score, I think that when RP/AM’s are not tossing out the ranged spike healing they should be able to toss out damage roughly equal to the amount I do in melee. I think rather than buff their healing we should let them be proper support classes able to not just heal but also toss out the damage too while the WP is keeping the health topped up.

Anyhow thanks for reading and I'll be watching the thread and the forum with interest!
(And don't be afraid to pick apart my post if you have an issue with something I posted :) )

[Rimarlk]

I understand what your saying, and the RF regen on purple books is a bit much. But in order for those guys to do that amount of healing they sacrifice all damage what so ever.

Those giant numbers are from aoe group healing 5 other people. We can cast our aoe heal every 3 secs because of GC. Eventually, healing 5 other people for 800 damage will add up into gigantic numbers. Trust me though. One Salvation WP will not be able to keep someone up under the assist train for long like a RP can. A grace WP is better for burst healing but he sacrifices the comfort of range to go bash heads. Its a fair trade-off.

Archmages in general need a buff.

BTW, I get ff'ed down so much. Destruction see's me and are look, oooooo!!! High-level WP. He's dangerous(which I can be) we need to take him out first. This results in getting nuked by multiple casters and having a few 2h tanks beating on me. I don't last long.

People look who to target first and a WP is generally one of the first to go down. Again, everyone knows we're a dangerous class so we get attacked first. This again contributes to the balancing.

One more thing. I wouldn't mind if they changed the RF/SE regen down just a smidge. Maybe something like 3 RF regen for green books, then 6 for blue, and 9 for purple. I would be fine with that.

[PinkysBrain]

The problem is scaling ... between AoE, FF and Morales a melee healer which would be balanced for small scale encounters would be unplayable in scenarios. As it is in really large encounters with some good FF groups they are still going to get burned down as priority target number 1.

I really don't see any way to make a melee healer playable in scenarios other than the way they are now ... before the boost we were healbots.

[Arianell]

Take Scenario scoreboards with a grain of salt, in my opinion. Just because you aren't on the top healing chart doesn't mean you aren't doing your job well.

This is how I see the healers for WAR:


Disciples of Khaine/Warrior Priests - The hybrid healers; fairly good damage, survivability, and healing. They make excellent spread healers and party healers, which makes them good at taking consistent pressure without getting worn out as quickly as some of their healer counterparts with single-target heals. They have a wide variety of HoTs, spread heals, and a channeled heal.
Zealot/Rune Priest -- Primary, direct healers; they have a couple HoTs, some Instant heals, and some large, burst heals. There's no one better to control FF healing than one of these guys played by a skilled player. One of them supporting a FF'd target who has support of a secondary healer will probably be able to stay up through alot of punishment.
Shaman/Archmage -- Pretty good all-around healers. Slower party heals than a DoK/WP, and fewer burst healing options than Zealot/RP, but they get some nice party buffs and HoTs.


Since there's more pressure in PuG groups than actual spike (burst) damage, you'll see DoKs and WPs thriving more than the healers who have more single-target heals. This doesn't mean that Zealots/RPs/Shamans/AMs are any less useful than a DoK or WP in a situation. All healers have their place, and a good team of healers will ensure success for most groups.

And just think of it this way: The DoKs and WPs are taking the pressure damage that would normally wear down healers who only have single-target heals, leaving them to manage spike damage with greater success than if they were without the pressure healers. With only 60SE I can heal everyone in my party significantly, while it costs 40AP and 2s for an Archmage to heal a single target with relatively the same burst amount of healing. However, a 250SE powerpool, while removing hex/ailments, and using HoTs, will wear down pretty quickly when coupled with spamming a 60SE party heal to keep a single target alive. An Archmage can focus Boon of Hysh (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9242) on a target, and continue to cast it on them, giving them a boost every 2.5s while a WPs HoTs tick on the target inbetween casts. Both healers benefit from eachother.

[Efertin]

DoK/WP healing shouldn't be any worse than Zealot/RP or AM/shaman healing, because otherwise, frankly, there would be no point of bringing them. All six classes are healers, AM/shaman the "ranged dps healers" (rofl), RP's/zealots the flex healers (they have way more healing spells than other classes) and DoKs/WP's the aoe/melee healers (they fill this job quite good).

I think that Mythic should take another look at the chalices/books though, because melee healers standing in the backline chaining heals isn't how it's supposed to work tbh. They should be able to heal from range, but they shouldn't be able to just stand there without ever meleeing and keep healing. That's EXACTLY what Mythic wanted to avoid with the RF/SE mechanic.

[Acaus]

Gah i'm tired of hearing WP's say that they only top the charts off because they HoT anything in low health. You think I don't do that on my AM? My boon of hysh is near damn useless in pvp because of the cast timer unless I have full high magic which takes 5 seconds to build, and a large majority of my action points. I always throw a lambent aura on anything that's damaged but there's a limit to what that can do for when there's multiple people being damaged - which is all the time. That's when WP's AoE heals completely wreck my healing, hands down. It's really not much fun to even compete against one because of their damn books giving 12 rf per second while i'm having to wait on my action points to regen. And no, our low survivability is NOT made up by our healing potential because the second my detaunts wear off I have to drop healing anyone else and focus mainly on me else I die.

[Rozerick]

Gah i'm tired of hearing WP's say that they only top the charts off because they HoT anything in low health. You think I don't do that on my AM? My boon of hysh is near damn useless in pvp because of the cast timer unless I have full high magic which takes 5 seconds to build, and a large majority of my action points. I always throw a lambent aura on anything that's damaged but there's a limit to what that can do for when there's multiple people being damaged - which is all the time. That's when WP's AoE heals completely wreck my healing, hands down. It's really not much fun to even compete against one because of their damn books giving 12 rf per second while i'm having to wait on my action points to regen. And no, our low survivability is NOT made up by our healing potential because the second my detaunts wear off I have to drop healing anyone else and focus mainly on me else I die.

WP's are fine, it's the Archamges that need to be worked on then.

You really have to get a WP to tier 4 to understand how tough it is to play this class efficiently in both healing and melee.

I can't speak for the RF regeneration, that might be OP'ed, but the class itself is fine. If you guys have forgotten, we were pretty limp before patch 1.06.

[Arrelaine]

It seems for a DoK though, that you need to have a chalice or you have to be in the front lines. I know a few DoK who have chalices, and for everyone of them, there's like 3 that play with out one, because they're supposed to fight on the front lines. I know with my zealot in Mourkain, my DoK buddy was getting the Order to come so he can heal the carrier more effectively. He was always right in the middle for both damage and healing. Which is how it should be. On my zealot the only people that outhealed me were shamans, and the occasional WP toting a book.

[Uphoria]

Hybrid healers are fine right now. Although i do see the tombs being nerfed slightly in the future. WPs only throw up big numbers because we are group healers as apposed to single target healers. An arch mage or an RP can heal a single target for 1200 but at the same time a WP can heal that target and 5 more for just under the same amount. But it greatly depends on how many people in our group are being damaged.

If we are fighting against an organized destro FF group our heals mean jack and you will see our healing numbers vanish. But if there is a lot of AoE damage flying around and lots of 1v1 fightings we have a much larger impact on what happens. This is also very dependent on the WP's spec as well.

Salvation WP were very hard to play before Tombs regen came about. Most salv WP stacked Wilpower which made it very difficult to survive being in melee range to generate RF. We can generate huge healing numbers but its very situational. And because most of our heals are AoE or HoTs we have a lot of wasted Healing as well.

[Sibelle]

My problem isn't with your healing mechanics.

My problem is the fact that you guys (WP/DoK) have a significantly higher armor class (thus more survivability because you don't get shredded instantly by Witch Elves). Rune Priests and Archmages should be near the back, yes. We wear robes. We heal from afar --- What's with this FRONT LINE FIGHTER sitting in the back with us spamming AoE heals faster than I can (I assure you, 1 second heal, 2 second cooldown, when ANY damage is involved [due to the slow casting changes and because of knockback when someone sneezes in your general direction] puts out FAR more healing throughput than I do) except for if I have my second Morale up for the haste buff.

If you guys should be as effective as you are standing behind ME, then drop the armor class.

I can barely keep up with the AVERAGE Warrior Priest, much less the really "good" ones. Why is this? I have all of the upper Isha abilities and the entire Isha tree. How the heck should someone with a high armor class meant to fight on the front lines be keeping up with me, much less beating me?! I sacrifice any survivability and crowd control for pure healing -- and I'm being beat by a class that gets that baseline.

Before this game came out the YouTube videos would always brag about how Warrior Priests needed to be up front. How people who wanted to "And I heal and I heal and I heal" should go somewhere else because WP won't be doing that. And now they're sitting out of range spamming their AoE heal beating my healing throughput all but a couple seconds of every minute when I can toss my AoE heal every 1.5 seconds. Meanwhile these people take forever to be killed, often requiring coordinated focus fire from multiple players, whereas I'm dropped in a second by a Witch Elf.

And I'm not complaining about being killed by Witch Elves. I knew I would be fragile when I decided to go completely Isha spec. However, being dominated by a front-line fighter who sits in back spamming AoE, also heals people when and if they ever decide to hit something, and heals when they take damage too... seems a bit nuts.

A lot of people say the issue is with the books. Fine. But if those aren't going to be fixed, I've got a spell that's supposed to keep me alive in dire situations that absorbs a mere 900 damage -- Shield of Saphery . 900? Really? That's with Isha buffs? That's not even a single hit. A WP puts that out in one second with their AoE heal. Sure, my AoE heal also hits for 900+, but it takes 3 times as long to cast.

I propose upping the power of that shield spell.

[Tsalarian]

Hybrid healers are fine right now. Although i do see the tombs being nerfed slightly in the future. WPs only throw up big numbers because we are group healers as apposed to single target healers. An arch mage or an RP can heal a single target for 1200 but at the same time a WP can heal that target and 5 more for just under the same amount. But it greatly depends on how many people in our group are being damaged.
Actually, in the time it takes a RP/AM to cast the big single target heal, a WP can cast a group heal and the single target HoT. This is because the WP has much less cast time on their heals.

[Alones]

I think healing in general is all out of whack at the moment, I also think Healing is weak compared to DPS, especially after they added the assist button. Mythic wanted all healer achtypes to play out as hybrids in one form or another, so what we ended up with was unfinished or unpolished classes. It was a good idea on paper, it just didn't play out as well.

I think Arianell summed it up fairly well, except on a few points.

On Destruction, Shamans are (and always have been) better healers than Zealots, there is little to no point in rolling a Zealot if you want to be a pure healer. The only thing Zealots have over Shamans is slightly better survivablity. All their healing is in one single tree, the only thing they're missing is an ability similar to Leaping Alertation (Weak HoT that jumps to 6 allies) and our group buffs.

As far as hybrid DoKs and WPs are concerned, I personally think they're the most balanced class out there right now (except for the chalice and tome regen rate, I think this needs to be toned down a bit), the problem with pure healers is that Willpower doesn't scale very well (a lot of people ditch Willpower in favor of defensive stats due to Willpower not scaling very well). Also our healing sets (Zealots at least, haven't looked into other classes sets) are still somewhat geared towards hybrid play with a significant amount of Int. WPs and DoKs can either go for Willpower or Strength depending on if they want to be Hybrid or pure healers, Strength scales much better than Willpower for this purpose.

Solutions:

Make our Harbringer usefull and worth casting, all it is now is a requirement for some abilities and doesn't benefit us at all. RPs have no such requirement on their abilities.

Make Willpower scale better for RP/Zealots and Shaman/AM so its actually beneficial to stack WP over other stats.

Let RP/Zealot convert all Int into Willpower (at a ratio of 2:1, so 2 Int = 1 Willpower). This would achieve three things, promote hybrid play, make use of the wasted stats on our sets and give us the ability to go out in the world and kill things solo (such as questing) in a reasonable amount of time... As it stands, it takes a good 4-5 full spell rotations (which equals to roughly 30-40 seconds) to kill an equal level mob as a Zealot. An RP or Zealot stacking Int won't be able to heal as well as one stacking Willpower and still wouldn't be able to do as much damage as a full blown RDPS, so they'd be similar to DoKs and WPs now.

[Litholen]

Actually, in the time it takes a RP/AM to cast the big single target heal, a WP can cast a group heal and the single target HoT. This is because the WP has much less cast time on their heals.

Indeed. In fact, in the time it takes my AM to finish casting Boon (thanks for that cast-time bug, Mythic - lovin' it), my DoK can have found a convenient enemy and let rip with Rend Soul for the same single-target HP regen.

[Stormblazer]

For the so-called hybrid healers...
We don't heal like zealot/RP and hit like trucks at the same time.
Grace spec can put out respectable burst healing and decent damage, salvation spec puts out the heals like the ranged healers focused on group heals but hits weak, and wrath spec hits like a truck but heals are mediocre.

And of those, only a salv spec would equip the RF regen books.

I'm pretty sure it's a similar situation for DoKs.

Now, I do think the ranged healers need some buffs and certainly some major bug fixes - most especially the cast time bug which affects everyone, but also for example MRoS being broken for Runepriests which worked fine before 1.06 and hasn't worked properly since.

[Itzy]

I think chalice/tomes need there regeneration changed to every 3 seconds instead of every second. I think it would make it viable but not as OP as it is currently.

[Rozerick]

Most of you are exaggerating, "can hit like trucks", "Can easily take on WE's", "Can heal better then an RP because they got a larger number on a scoreboard".

The point is, WP's throw hots on themselves, then use their melee heals to stay alive. Except for are moral ability, we have no good single target heals. If we get in over our heads in the front lines, without a secondary healer, we will die. We are on the front lines, RP's and AM's don't have to be, you have to give us some utility's.

Edit: The argument "Should be weaker because they heal better than me in the back lines" holds no water. You can't nerf a class because some players choose to play differently. There is no proof that we heal better then you in the back lines, a good RP will always out heal a good salv spec WP. Sure, Archmages might suck, but ask for buffs, don't drag down other classes.

[Litholen]

Sure, Archmages might suck, but ask for buffs, don't drag down other classes.

Agreed. If anything, the WP/DoK pairing is the definition of the hybrid class we were promised for Archmage and Shaman - the difference being they're MDPS/Healer and AMs/Shammies are supposed to be RDPS/Healer.

-L

[PinkysBrain]

People are now having 2 entire different conversations in this thread ... web forums with their archaic non threading structure aren't suited for this.

The OP was talking about WPs/DoKs being OP while in active combat, others are talking about them healing too well even while not in active combat. Reducing RF generation would change the second, but it would not change a thing about the situation the OP is concerned with AFAICS.

[Rozerick]

People are now having 2 entire different conversations in this thread ... web forums with their archaic non threading structure aren't suited for this.

The OP was talking about WPs/DoKs being OP while in active combat, others are talking about them healing too well even while not in active combat. Reducing RF generation would change the second, but it would not change a thing about the situation the OP is concerned with AFAICS.

When has a thread ever stayed completely on topic? lol

[Sibelle]

Most of you are exaggerating, "can hit like trucks", "Can easily take on WE's", "Can heal better then an RP because they got a larger number on a scoreboard".

The point is, WP's throw hots on themselves, then use their melee heals to stay alive. Except for are moral ability, we have no good single target heals. If we get in over our heads in the front lines, without a secondary healer, we will die. We are on the front lines, RP's and AM's don't have to be, you have to give us some utility's.

Edit: The argument "Should be weaker because they heal better than me in the back lines" holds no water. You can't nerf a class because some players choose to play differently. There is no proof that we heal better then you in the back lines, a good RP will always out heal a good salv spec WP. Sure, Archmages might suck, but ask for buffs, don't drag down other classes.
Ooo!! Ooo... let's see if I didn't lose my screenshot of the WP that beat me once with 0 damage. (Incidentally you don't end up with 0 damage being "on the front lines" as you claim WP/DoK are always).

Edit: *sigh* Lost it. Well I'll get you another one. Should be easy enough.

Edit 2: Oh and to the "blah blah blah they're just spamming AoE healing which doesn't save anybody" if we're in the SAME group and we're both alive for the SAME amount of time, a WP's healing output shouldn't be better than mine.

[NightShade]

I've considered DoKs OP since 1.06. I imagine I would think the same of WPs if I were playing Destro. They hit well, they heal well, they have decent survivability, universally good synergy, decent utility, DoKs have strong CC... I can't think of many weaknesses they suffer from in light of all their strengths. Small scale, medium scale, large scale, they can and do shine in all types of encounters. In short, they're just performing too well, be it because of damage potential, survivability, utility or healing potential... I can't positively say.

[Rozerick]

Ooo!! Ooo... let's see if I didn't lose my screenshot of the WP that beat me once with 0 damage. (Incidentally you don't end up with 0 damage being "on the front lines" as you claim WP/DoK are always).

Edit: *sigh* Lost it. Well I'll get you another one. Should be easy enough.

Edit 2: Oh and to the "blah blah blah they're just spamming AoE healing which doesn't save anybody" if we're in the SAME group and we're both alive for the SAME amount of time, a WP's healing output shouldn't be better than mine.


First Bold: I never claimed that, some WP's go into the front lines, some stay back and throw the team HoT's.

Second Bold: Also never claimed it didn't help anyone, I just said that a good RP will always heal better than a good salv spec WP. The scenario numbers really don't mean much, seeing as you can put on a healing prayer, and just throw HoT's around, you don't even have to technically save anyone.

If you can't out heal WP's that stand in the back lines, that's either your problem, or Archmages in general.

Asking to nerf our armor doesn't make sense, you would just be limping the WP's that actually go out in the front lines. If anything, ask for Archmages to be buffed, or the tomes/chalices to be toned down.

Edit: Please read my all of my post and try to understand what I'm saying, hate repeating myself.

[Stormblazer]

Edit: The argument "Should be weaker because they heal better than me in the back lines" holds no water. You can't nerf a class because some players choose to play differently. There is no proof that we heal better then you in the back lines, a good RP will always out heal a good salv spec WP. Sure, Archmages might suck, but ask for buffs, don't drag down other classes.
WPs can put out higher numbers (and mostly useful numbers too) than RPs in back lines (salv), but the RP has utility the WP can't match, and of course the 3 second rez.

However, right now thanks to the cast time bug, all ranged healers are having issues compared to melee healers who are less affected by it - additionally, one of RPs big utility abilities, Master Rune of Speed, hasn't worked right since 1.06 (worked fine before).

[Rozerick]

WPs can put out higher numbers (and mostly useful numbers too) than RPs in back lines (salv), but the RP has utility the WP can't match, and of course the 3 second rez.

However, right now thanks to the cast time bug, all ranged healers are having issues compared to melee healers who are less affected by it - additionally, one of RPs big utility abilities, Master Rune of Speed, hasn't worked right since 1.06 (worked fine before).

Maybe, but if you needed straight up healing on your team, and you had a choice between a WP and a Rune Priest, who would you choose?

It's a no brainer, and that's my point.

[Khaelann]

Ooo!! Ooo... let's see if I didn't lose my screenshot of the WP that beat me once with 0 damage. (Incidentally you don't end up with 0 damage being "on the front lines" as you claim WP/DoK are always).

We can do both, that is why people call us hybrids. We can specialize into backline healers, melee healers or melee assist DPS. Or heck, we can do a build that is all and none of those.


Edit 2: Oh and to the "blah blah blah they're just spamming AoE healing which doesn't save anybody" if we're in the SAME group and we're both alive for the SAME amount of time, a WP's healing output shouldn't be better than mine.


And why is that? The WP is healing _6_ people while you're healing one. Even if your single heal is stronger than his he is doing it 6x in the best case. And if you are now gonna say that the Group heals are as potent as the big heals the ranged healers get then you'll just show how ignorant you are. Group heal spam wont negate focus fire, but it will buffer it up a bit for a RP/AM/Zealot/Shammy to drop in the big 2.5s heals that can actually save someone. Btw, before you whine about the cast time bug any more you should realise it hits us as hard as any of the other healers. We also have a second bug with one of our HoTs that causes it to remove one other HoT when applied after each other.

WP/DoK is an AoE healer. RP/AM/Zealot/Shammy is a single target healer with some AoE heals. Combine them and you got some really amazing healing synergy. But guess playing as a team is something you dont want but instead you'd like to be able to do it all on your own and be the best in all.

In closing, stop looking at those stupid scenario scoreboards, they're a very poor way of judging how good or bad a class is.

PS. A DoK/WP that hits hard, heals well and has good utility is a myth. You cannot have such a build due to stat and mastery path limitations. You either are a hybrid of two balanced trees and deal mediocre damage and heals or you focus on one aspect pretty much purely.

DR/Salvation for Healing, will be low on damage due to using Tome/Chalice and stacking Willpower instead of STR.

Sacrifice/Grace for melee healing, will do mediocre damage due to STR stacking and has mediocre ranged healing abilities due to low willpower.

Sacrifice+DR/Grace+Salvation balanced specs, jack-of-all-trade builds which are mediocre in both healing and damage due to STR and Willpower stacking and limited amount of mastery path points.

Torture/Wrath specs, hardest hitting with subpar heals, stacking STR and bringing some utility to the group.

Get the picture or do you need all of the other builds and small offshoots explained aswell?

[Tak'zenen]

All I'm saying, put 3 WPs together, and they're pretty much invincible in a scenario where population is controlled. This means you have to zerg them. BY together I mean staying at each other's hip and assisting and healing the same defensive target.

While I realize this is great synergy and cooperation, I think it's a bit ridiculous when a 29 magus, two 27 SH, and a 24 WE can't burn down one target in less than a few seconds due to the WPs melee heals. Oh, WP was 26-27, as was his buddies, one was 24. Why were we not FFing the 24? Honestly, I don't know, would have been smarter though =P.

I can only imagine it's equally frustrating vs DoKs with their morale stun. That has to be brutal.

[Sibelle]

*sigh* Let's try this again. And let's keep in mind that I am the only one here typing in pink.

"some stay back and throw the team HoT's."
Which is the problem. Warrior Priests/DoKs are a significantly higher armor class than us back-row healers. That's an issue with the mechanics. Higher armor implies survivability.

"The scenario numbers really don't mean much, seeing as you can put on a healing prayer, and just throw HoT's around, you don't even have to technically save anyone."
Numbers in this instance can be used as a quantitative measure of healing throughput. See below.

"If you can't out heal WP's that stand in the back lines, that's either your problem, or Archmages in general."
I never said there wasn't potentially an Archmage problem.

"Asking to nerf our armor doesn't make sense, you would just be limping the WP's that actually go out in the front lines. If anything, ask for Archmages to be buffed, or the tomes/chalices to be toned down."
If you were paying attention (I notice you whine about having to repeat yourself, yet you completely missed my blaring pink post saying that one option would just be to buff AM survivability, particularly by increasing the strength of our Shield of Saphery spell).

The mention of the armor class has to do with the idea of position in combat. If you argue that a Warrior Priest should be able to heal as effectively from the same position as a Robe wearer when wearing several categories higher of armor... then something has to give. If you think your armor class should remain as it is, then obviously you should be where a higher armor class implies... UP FRONT.

"Maybe, but if you needed straight up healing on your team, and you had a choice between a WP and a Rune Priest, who would you choose?

It's a no brainer, and that's my point."
A Warrior Priest has significantly higher survivability than a Rune Priest and more healing throughput in heavy-fire situations. Hmm.

"We can do both, that is why people call us hybrids. We can specialize into backline healers, melee healers or melee assist DPS. Or heck, we can do a build that is all and none of those."
... Then *** WHY *** is your ARMOR CLASS higher than ours? Notice the other BACK LINE healers have Robe? It's an MMORPG paradigm... well, a game paradigm in general, that heavier armor means you're closer to combat.

"And why is that? The WP is healing _6_ people while you're healing one. Even if your single heal is stronger than his he is doing it 6x in the best case. And if you are now gonna say that the Group heals are as potent as the big heals the ranged healers get then you'll just show how ignorant you are. Group heal spam wont negate focus fire, but it will buffer it up a bit for a RP/AM/Zealot/Shammy to drop in the big 2.5s heals that can actually save someone. Btw, before you whine about the cast time bug any more you should realise it hits us as hard as any of the other healers. We also have a second bug with one of our HoTs that causes it to remove one other HoT when applied after each other."
Unfortunately the ignorance here is on your part. Why on Earth would I mention "group" if I were speaking about single-target healing? With the exception of the WP point blank heal with like 30yards on it, grpup heals are the only heals that are bound by group barriers... so I would figure it could be assumed that if I was speaking of us being in the "same group" that I am obviously talking about the two of us using our group heals. I mean really... what kind of logic does it take to assume that I was talking about a group heal vs. a single target heal when I have already taken the time to quote the cast time of that group heal. Obviously my 3 second heal wouldn't beat a 1 sec heal especially on a single target. ... Seriously now. Anyway, to get to the point. Assuming that both of us are casting group heals, in an "ideal" situation we're going to put out the same amount of healing throughput because there is a 1sec cast time with 2sec cooldown vs. 3 sec cast time. We all know this is not the case though because the shorter your cast time the less affected by pushback you are.

This, however, is not the problem. The problem is that this can be done for an indefinite amount of time while being out of combat... and more importantly... while standing around the clothies. And more significantly... while standing around the clothies and having a higher armor class.


Oh, and the part about my not being a team player is absolute gold. A spec that relies on the protection of others and has absolutely no solo combat ability whatsoever. Yes. You are amazingly brilliant.

But while we're making accusations here, obviously you're all about being overpowered. Since you believe that you should have the greatest survivability of all of the healers and be able to completely ignore your original mechanics (having to FIGHT to heal) and be able to outheal those of us who are completely without survivability. I mean, when you're on top, it's difficult to want to come down.

Me, I'm fine with being dropped in a split second by a Witch Elf. It's called "balance." I sacrifice survivability to heal. What do you sacrifice? Oh right, nothing.

[Nirmalti]

Next person to mention Scenario numbers with anything related to balance gets a tire iron thrown at them.

What is being done here is mismashing a topic, with no focus.

What are you arguing exactly? There are 3 different "Hybrid healers".

A. DPS Speced Hybrids
B. Single Heal Speced Hybrids
C. Group Heal Speced Hybrids.

Now, unlike most other classes, hybrids also have another option. Strength or Willpower focus. So you can specialize again.

1. DPS Strength Hybrid
2. DPS Willpower Hybrid (Probaby the rarest of all specs)
3. Single Heal Strength Spec
4. Single Heal Willpower Spec
5. Group Heal Strength Spec
6. Group Heal Willpower Spec

So now what are you arguing? Spec's 1 and 2 heal too much? Spec's 5 and 6 damage too much?

The poster above me seems to be arguing Spec's 5 and 6 have too much survivability. I will disagree with this statement.

Armor class DOES NOT equal survivability. CC abilities DO equal survivability.

This is where the WP is very weak compared to the other healers. He has no method of rooting/snaring/stunning/KB his opponent. (DoK actually do get one, a rank 2 morale AE stun.)

But hybrid healers get a KB you say. Well...yes and no. They do get one at level 39. HOWEVER, it is the weakest of all KBs, and unlike most other KBs, has about a 50% chance to even work, combined with a 60s cooldown.

So while you argue the WP has more survivability when in a back row healer spec due to his higher armor class, I will argue the opposite point.

The WP/DoK has less survivability than Zealot/RP/Shaman due to their lack of CC. Archmages are another issue, and it is the archmage that needs the increase to be equal with the rest of the healers.

And don't argue for more AC....because that won't help your survivability one bit.

[Azer]

The issues here stem from two fundamental design "features" of WAR.

1. No "mana attrition"

In most games like this you start the battle with a full health and "mana" bar and as the battle progresses you run out. Obviously once the health bar runs out you die, but once the mana bar runs out healers can no longer heal and are dead meat.

This is a check on the power of caster classes making them only powerful in fairly short bursts or limiting them to moderate power if they want to be able to fight indefinitely.

Because WAR does not have this healer classes dominate to the point where I dont really think any other archtype is even viable except in 2 limited siturations . Extreme PvE (tanks are needed) and AE.

I can not think of a single instance where single target dps classes, both ranged and melee, bring more to the group than another healer. Sorry WE, WH, SW, SH, MAR and WL, but your class is gimp and you should reroll healers.

There are also far too many tanks. Tanks are only good if backed by healers. Even then it's arguable as to whether a WP/DoK would be a better option.

2. Direct heals are inefficient.

The only benefit to being a squishy healer over a melee healer, from a healbot perspective, is that you get direct single target heals. Sadly these direct heals are totally inefficent when compared to HOTs and group heals. They are good for keeping someone alive in a pinch, but you wont get optimal numbers in a SC. What many of you fail to realize is that this is perfectly fine that WP/DoK may be getting the same numbers as you, but you're doing a better job of keeping people alive.

[Xennon]

Ok i play dok and i am full sentinel rank 40.
I wouldn't like my class to get nerfed but this is how the curent situation is. I started playing dok to be assist player and to be debuffer. As i lvled i noticed we couldnt heal that well, our dps mastery tree sux-except for snare which were usefull until 1.1, our sac. tree was useless since i had almost no debuffs!!! I wanted to debuff and chosen had more debuffs then me in his auras!!! These is a laugh! But after 1.1 they nerfed dmg tree, nerfed pillage essence due to se regen with chalice. And u end up with healing the only thing that is left.

The saddest part is that i even dont need to spec healing to heal efficiently- My group heal heals for 1k on person and i have only 9 points in DR.

So my point is:
-make mastery trees acctually relevant to what play style we have (like shadow priest in WoW)
- se regen on chalices should only be avaliable high in DR tree.
-and make our morales usefull, empowered transfer is only usefull tact in Sac and DR tree- khains bounty is only usefull in Scenarios

So dok needs to have his mastery trees rearranged. End:D

[Herodotus]

Ok i play dok and i am full sentinel rank 40.
I wouldn't like my class to get nerfed but this is how the curent situation is. I started playing dok to be assist player and to be debuffer. As i lvled i noticed we couldnt heal that well, our dps mastery tree sux-except for snare which were usefull until 1.1, our sac. tree was useless since i had almost no debuffs!!! I wanted to debuff and chosen had more debuffs then me in his auras!!! These is a laugh! But after 1.1 they nerfed dmg tree, nerfed pillage essence due to se regen with chalice. And u end up with healing the only thing that is left.

The saddest part is that i even dont need to spec healing to heal efficiently- My group heal heals for 1k on person and i have only 9 points in DR.

So my point is:
-make mastery trees acctually relevant to what play style we have (like shadow priest in WoW)
- se regen on chalices should only be avaliable high in DR tree.
-and make our morales usefull, empowered transfer is only usefull tact in Sac and DR tree- khains bounty is only usefull in Scenarios

So dok needs to have his mastery trees rearranged. End:D

You're using Wow as a basis of balancing classes???!?!

My opinion..

Give smite a 5 target cap for RF return. Let it damage everyone but the RF return stops at 5 or 6 people.

Nerf regen on Tomes, it even regens while casting. AP doesn't regen while casting or while acting... why can we regen RF?

So... if you're going to nerf that, and the Healing trees of the hybrids fall behind the other trees, what would you have them provide aside from meager hot's? Grace has all the Buffs... Wrath has most of the debuffs and modifiers.

Salv needs better utility and synergy with its melee. Right now the only reason salv would want to melee... is to get a killing blow on something. They need better synergy with their melee abilities. Forcing them to melee because they need to keep "RF" up is stupid, since our medium armor really does nothing for our survivability, and we don't provide many shields and buffers for protecting ourselves. Grace at least brings stronger buffs, and wrath brings debuffs and melee assist.... Salv does.... not much in melee range.

Also, and lastly. Order classes need to stop getting other order classes nerfed. All I ever see is crying about how AM and RP are being outdone by WP on a scoreboard.... Seriously? Is this all the game is to you? Maybe Tiddlywinks is more your game. It's very difficult to tell an entire mastery tree they need to "melee" when it does more harm than good to have them stack melee stats rather than healing stats. So now you have a mediocre "grace" style priest.... with none of the buffs and not so great healing... What is it you people really want?

[Litholen]

Also, and lastly. Order classes need to stop getting other order classes nerfed. All I ever see is crying about how AM and RP are being outdone by WP on a scoreboard.... What is it you people really want?
Certainly not a WP/DoK nerf. They've already nerfed my AM main - if they nerf my DoK alt, I'm going to consider myself a jinx to all classes I play and reroll a WE just for spite :)

What I'd like to see is our channelled DPS spell turned into a channelled DPS-to-Heal spell (effectively make Searing Touch function like Divine Assault, but a 100:100 transfer rather than 100:350). That would go a long way to delivering the RDPS/Healing hybrid class Mythic promised. We shouldn't be crying about the WP being OP - we should be saying "This is what Mythic can do with a hybrid class - why haven't they done it for us yet?"

-L

[Herodotus]

Certainly not a WP/DoK nerf. They've already nerfed my AM main - if they nerf my DoK alt, I'm going to consider myself a jinx to all classes I play and reroll a WE just for spite :)

What I'd like to see is our channelled DPS spell turned into a channelled DPS-to-Heal spell (effectively make Searing Touch (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9250) function like Divine Assault (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8244), but a 100:100 transfer rather than 100:350). That would go a long way to delivering the RDPS/Healing hybrid class Mythic promised. We shouldn't be crying about the WP being OP - we should be saying "This is what Mythic can do with a hybrid class - why haven't they done it for us yet?"

-L

Agreed, Ask for buffs and utility. Leave the healing of WP alone. Fix the regen on books and give Smite a limit and I can almost guarantee that a Salvation Warrior Priest will need to do more than just stand and spam. Even supplication takes you effectively out of your healing groove as it both A) has a cooldown and B) Can be remarkably inefficient without the proper tactics.

[PinkysBrain]

Litholen, also Transfer Force should be on 0 CD and Balance Essence should get a boost.

Arcing power should simply do 25% healing of damage, 25% of 25% is silly.

[kraeth]

All I'm saying, put 3 WPs together, and they're pretty much invincible in a scenario where population is controlled. This means you have to zerg them. BY together I mean staying at each other's hip and assisting and healing the same defensive target.

While I realize this is great synergy and cooperation, I think it's a bit ridiculous when a 29 magus, two 27 SH, and a 24 WE can't burn down one target in less than a few seconds due to the WPs melee heals. Oh, WP was 26-27, as was his buddies, one was 24. Why were we not FFing the 24? Honestly, I don't know, would have been smarter though =P.

I can only imagine it's equally frustrating vs DoKs with their morale stun. That has to be brutal.

This is a tough nut to crack and the way to crack it is not focus on one target.
Focusing on one target allows three healers to focus on the one.

What would probably have done better is the WE jump the lowest level one everyone else on the highest level one and use as much CC as possible (silence is golden).If the SH duo had their level 1 morale up quickly target the third WP and punt him then switch to the first target a knocked back warrior priest isn't channeling heals via damage done to your team.
Overall this tactic of more warrior priests = win fades in tier 4 the sheer volume of CC available shuts this tactic down.

The thing is three of nearly any class can be overwhelming if used in synergy.Imagine three Witch hunters/Witchelves pack hunting.Three Ironbreakers spearheading an assault with tons of KBs oathfriend tons of grudge etc.

Now for comments on other topics in this thread.

Charms (chalice/tomes) are allowing a bit to much regeneration on the casting pool.Warrior priest can benefit a bit more from a tome due to access to 2 tactics that enhance RF generation (DoKs have 0 tactics that increase SE generation).

Warrior priest and Deciple's healing is largely focused on group healing because of one major factor.A WP and DoK are pretty much maxed on multitasking.
WP/DoK when used as a melee/healer hybrid have to pay attention to a whole slew of things essentially everything a melee fighter AND a healer has to pay attention to.
All the while being one of the top targets for enemy suppression.

My opinion is DoK and WP are two of the well designed classes in WAR (appart from the charms being a bit to good).
Warrior priest and deciple of khaine are right up there with iron breakers and black orcs for actually doing what they are suppose to be doing.

[Rozerick]

Edit: Nevermind, what's the point of arguing with people who have no understanding of the WP/DoK class.

[jdela13]

I play order so I have no idea if the same can be said about Warrior Priests as my observations have been.

1) To say that scenarios are irrelevant is a fool's argument. I would argue that 50% of the game is scenarios and that is where a lot of people play. So it is important and it should probably be balanced accordingly. However, this creates a unique problem in that scenarios play so differently than ORVR. What may be very powerful in a scenario could be next to useless in ORVR. So when talking about balance it should be noted whether we are talking ORVR or scenario balance.

2) Scenario balance: DoKs specced healing with a chalice are bar none the best healers for their team. At least the ones I play against (and that is with probably one of the best shaman on the server in the same scenario) are. Why?

a) Survivability - Healing specced DoKs (perhaps WP again as stated in the first sentence I play order so I don't know) with a chalice do not have to be in the front lines. They sit in the back next to the shaman and zealots. They have better armor and can take much more of a beating. You have to get about 4 people on them to take them out through heals. Whereas 2 MDPS classes can take out a shaman or zelaot under similar circumstances.

a.1) AoE disable - A class that can heal has access to an AoE 5 second get out of death free card. 5 seconds is plenty of time to heal up and get out of dodge.

3) Healing - They are every bit as capable of a healer as an actual healer, even better. Speccing the healing tree doesn't make you a healer. You are still a hybrid healer so you should be less effective than a pure archtype. If my SM specced into Khaine I don't expect to do the same damage as a WH or BW (I wish, but don't expect it). I am not talking about buffing and utility, I am talking about straight healing.

4) ORVR - This is where it gets dicey. If they are not back line healers what is a DoK in ORVR? I don't know. They seem to be skirmishers that would heal MDPS on a front line push, but that hasn't worked out well. MDPS has a blurred role in ORVR as well as tanks. So the front line in general in ORVR needs to see some work. As a tank I block stairs in keep defense and sacrifice myself in attemping to take a keep. Being a back line healer provides a DoK with relevance in ORVR.

Summary: Luckily most DoKs think of themselves as offensive types. So I have not crossed paths with many healing specced ones, but they are becoming much more common. Scenario balance seems to be somewhat out of whack, but ORVR from my perspective seems ok although different than what the original intent of the class was probably.

[Khaelann]

I play order so I have no idea if the same can be said about Warrior Priests as my observations have been.

1) To say that scenarios are irrelevant is a fool's argument. I would argue that 50% of the game is scenarios and that is where a lot of people play. So it is important and it should probably be balanced accordingly. However, this creates a unique problem in that scenarios play so differently than ORVR. What may be very powerful in a scenario could be next to useless in ORVR. So when talking about balance it should be noted whether we are talking ORVR or scenario balance.

I would argue scenarios make for 20% of the game if even that and only people who are not in highly organized guilds play them on a daily basis. The rest are locking zones and pushing forts. So yes, I do disagree with your initial statement but I agree that scenarios and RvR are different in terms of balance hence why basing anything on scenarios alone is just outright wrong.

Also, people are not saying that you should ignore scenarios when talking about balance, but that you should not focus on the scoreboards since they seldom tell the story of that particular scenario. If you're going to interpret a scoreboard picture without actually having been there, it is mostly guess work. Sure, you can draw some conclusions from the healing/damage ratios, amount of kills to overall damage ratios and so forth but you will also miss many things that all affect the outcome. Without a fraps of the fight or a detailed description from both sides scoreboards offer very limited information. Now, if you base your balancing on that information you will most likely do the game more harm than good.

2) Scenario balance: DoKs specced healing with a chalice are bar none the best healers for their team. At least the ones I play against (and that is with probably one of the best shaman on the server in the same scenario) are. Why?

Best in what way? Specced in what way? You do realise that there's several different healing builds around also, right? If you're gonna claim something you need to also prove it, preferrably with something that isnt affected by a myriad of things like scenario scoreboards are.

a) Survivability - Healing specced DoKs (perhaps WP again as stated in the first sentence I play order so I don't know) with a chalice do not have to be in the front lines. They sit in the back next to the shaman and zealots. They have better armor and can take much more of a beating. You have to get about 4 people on them to take them out through heals. Whereas 2 MDPS classes can take out a shaman or zelaot under similar circumstances.

Yes, we have better armor while Shamans for example have a second, passive detaunt and a runspeed boost allowing them to escape the enemy. Our detaunt is also single target while many of the MDPS classes and WPs have access to AoE detaunts. Also, if we choose to stay at the backlines we knowingly prevent ourselves from using our burst heal, Rend Soul and at the same time stop dealing damage. So while we have higher armor even at the back, our DPS takes a nose dive and our healing will be down to the group heals and 2 HoTs.

Btw, I'd like some proof from you to back the statement saying we can take much more beating when specced for healing, just to see what you're comparing us to and what do you think we can do in such a situation.

a.1) AoE disable - A class that can heal has access to an AoE 5 second get out of death free card. 5 seconds is plenty of time to heal up and get out of dodge.

Subject to all the immunities and AoE rules, meaning it is capped on how many people it will hit and in big fights pretty much everyone is on the immunity timer already and you'll just do the 600 dmg and nothing else. DR R4 morale for example is much, much better. Universal Confusion is really useful only in small fights or as one of the first CC used on the enemy while engaging.

3) Healing - They are every bit as capable of a healer as an actual healer, even better. Speccing the healing tree doesn't make you a healer. You are still a hybrid healer so you should be less effective than a pure archtype. If my SM specced into Khaine I don't expect to do the same damage as a WH or BW (I wish, but don't expect it). I am not talking about buffing and utility, I am talking about straight healing.

Anyone can make broad statements like that, but do you have hard numbers to back them up? Our Group heal has the exact same power as the other healers have, the only difference is that ours is on 1s cast while theirs is 3s. I'd actually suggest this thread for you: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218981 it is a basic rundown of DoK/Shammy/Zealot.

You're making a false assumption btw in saying that DoKs are hybrids and the two others are pure archetypes. They're all hybrids in the same way, DoKs just do it in melee while Zealots and Shamans are ranged. They have DPS and debuff in their trees just like DoKs do. Now, if they were pure archetypes they would be totally concentrated around healing.

And, in the end we are less effective. We have the longest res and lack in single target heals. Yes, we can spam the group heal to some extent and if there's a proper target around we can push out some nice burst healing but we cant 100% of the time drop big heals on people. If we're not in melee range and only one member is taking damage, all we can do is put HoTs up and spam the group heal while the other healers will HoT and then spam the big heal which has over twice the power of the group heals and due to longer cast time benefits more from Willpower.

4) ORVR - This is where it gets dicey. If they are not back line healers what is a DoK in ORVR? I don't know. They seem to be skirmishers that would heal MDPS on a front line push, but that hasn't worked out well. MDPS has a blurred role in ORVR as well as tanks. So the front line in general in ORVR needs to see some work. As a tank I block stairs in keep defense and sacrifice myself in attemping to take a keep. Being a back line healer provides a DoK with relevance in ORVR.

We can go frontline if the fight isnt a huge one. But in bigger fights, the amount of AoE damage and CC makes it pointless for a healing class to rush in. We'll be of no use to our team when we're getting CC'd to Kingdom come. So yes, we're more the skirmishing type and backline support in there, meaning that out of three trees only one is really viable for massive fights and that is our healing tree.

I'm not saying that there is nothing that should be changed, but I'm a firm believer in doing things the right way and that includes having sufficient proof and data to back things up. I was quite happy with DoKs to begin with and the changes to our skills made me one happy camper. The change to chalices and tomes was a bit overdone in my opinion and I'd drop them to 3/6/9 respectively just like many other DoKs and WPs have suggested in various threads across many sections of the forums. Other than that, I would actually focus on fixing the remaining broken tactics and skills on both of the classes AND all of the other healers. There's no point in talking about balance when many classes are still unable to use their tools in the way they should.

[Rozerick]

If you were paying attention (I notice you whine about having to repeat yourself, yet you completely missed my blaring pink post saying that one option would just be to buff AM survivability, particularly by increasing the strength of our Shield of Saphery spell).

That's pretty funny coming from someone who makes rant posts based on scenario numbers and people hurting their epeen.

Edit: Anyway, our armor isn't the problem, it's obviously the RF regeneration, complain about that. Leave our armor alone, I have a hard enough time on the front lines without having secondary heals.

[Arrelaine]

I think they're fine with the healing in combat. The more damage they do, the more their party gets healed. It's a whoooole heck of a lot easier as a zealot in a scenario or in a keep raid to have a DoK healing a group while they dps. In scenarios, I'm sometimes the only healer besides a couple DoK.

Chalices are something different, I do think they need changed. It should be more benefactory to go with out a chalice and fight, the only reason they should have one if they're the only healer in a pve dungeon. On Lord Slaurith we had a hard time until we had our sac DoK drop the chalice and go in melee. We still died due to some freak of nature thing he did, but we got him down a lot faster.

[Alones]

Certainly not a WP/DoK nerf. They've already nerfed my AM main - if they nerf my DoK alt, I'm going to consider myself a jinx to all classes I play and reroll a WE just for spite :)


-L

I giggled at this comment, not because it was extremely funny, but because I was thinking the exact same thing (part about the WE).

Personally, I think hybrid (melee DPS/Healing) DoKs and WPs are the most balanced healer class out there atm. If Mythic balanced the other 4 healers around them, I think everything would be great as a healer (except for my still useless harbringer and useless DPS stats on my sets, but that's another matter).

[Tykero]

A WP/DoK who is backline healing has no options for burst healing or big heals, and their out-of-party healing capabilities are extremely limited. They're more survivable, and they have plenty of group-support capabilities, but their effectiveness drops dramatically as each additional group is added.

They are by no means better healers than AM/Shamam or RP/Zealot. They keep their group topped off, achieve bloated healing values at the end of a scenario, and nothing more. They dont have useful buffs, they can't rez dead players nearly as easily, they don't possess the myriad of useful utility heals that the others possess. Saying that because they can inflate their healing count at the end of a scenario makes them the best healers is simply ignorant. They do not have the tools of other healers.

Chalices/Books are fine. The regen on them makes up for the fact that WPs/DoKs cannot stack AP regen like other healers can, they can't benefit from AP pots, they can't benefit from various AP-restoring abilities and tactics,

My Zealot has +24 AP regen. Combined with Ritual of Innervation and a single Demon Spittle, I do not run out of AP.

Even without the Ritual of Innervation, running out of AP is extremely difficult.
Getting +24 AP regen was easy. I just had to purchase a few accessories off the AH and I was good to go.

WP/DoK are just experiencing what other healers at 40 have had access to for a while.
It's just a little more obvious to them that they should get additional regen.


As far as backline healing goes, they're perfectly balanced as they are.
Frontline, they fit their role well in T4, and they fit it too well in previous tiers. An unfortunate side-effect of making them perform properly in T4.
Regardless, intelligent opposition makes short work of them.

In either case, WPs/DoKs are fine. Players just need to understand their limitations.

[Rozerick]

Regardless, intelligent opposition makes short work of them.

This is very true, I don't know how many times I go out in the front, and every single destruction attacks me at once, almost insta-killing me.

It's all about intelligence, and knowing how to FF successfully.

[Leez]

See, when you said 'hybrid healers' I thought you had been playing your Archmage or Shaman.

Haha.

When did we become hybrids?

[Litholen]

When did we become hybrids?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not...

-L

[Deos]

WPs can put out higher numbers (and mostly useful numbers too) than RPs in back lines (salv), but the RP has utility the WP can't match, and of course the 3 second rez.

And this is whats its all about. As a warrior priest I can only do damage or heal at one time because of this if we didnt hit/heal as hard as everyone else we would be gimped.
What we do pay in is the utility. The longer rez times is one example. Another being the fact we get our one knock back at level 40 while some classes are getting their second at level 20. You guys get all the helpfull / situational skill and the hybrid classes get basic damage and basic healing

[Sibelle]

According to the logic expressed in this thread, predominantly from WP/DoK (surprisingly, of course), Ironbreakers and Knights of the Blazing Sun should stand in the back and let the Archmages and Bright Wizards run in first... y'know, break the lines. After all, armor class doesn't determine where you should be in combat.

So a moment ago I used my Shield of Saphery spell and wondered if it even worked. Oh wait, because even with all the buffing it gets from Isha, it was shattered in a second. And because people are paying absolutely no attention whatsoever, they missed the part where I have suggested buffing that spell, since healer-spec'ed Archmages have no Survivability (oh, and our knock-back has a 60-second cooldown and rarely works). Incidentally I put the Knockback Morale 3 I picked up a level ago on, and ... it's never worked.

And since the DoK/WP are so enjoying that they don't have to contribute a single point of damage to heal... like their mechanics originally stated... and can practically spam their AOE forever, they're obviously missing the entire point of mentioning the armor class. I don't want Plate, I don't want heavier armor. That was never mentioned. I like robes, they're pretty. I don't think Heavier armor wearers should be hiding behind me. And if I need to pull out the Warhammer videos about Warrior Priests fighting up front, I'm willing to do that.

I have no problem with ya'all being able to heal from behind every now and then, but not having to fight is imbalanced. Your armor class is too high for someone removed from combat. But you don't want to understand that because standing on top of a mountain out of range spamming your AoE indefinitely keeping your group up while no one can reach you is a perfectly valid tactic for someone who takes 4 people to kill (true story).

Shield of Saphery, buff it. Oh wait no, I'm obviously ONLY calling for nerfs. Pay no attention to the pink text. You're too busy trying to make yourself seem better than everyone.

[Rozerick]

Sibelle, you are pretty much just putting words in everyones mouth to continue the argument, just give it up already.

Except maybe for the RF regeneration, WP's and DoK's are fine. I also do agree they need to buff archmages.

[Litholen]

I have no problem with ya'all being able to heal from behind every now and then, but not having to fight is imbalanced.

Except maybe for the RF regeneration, WP's and DoK's are fine.

You realise that you two are, in fact, saying the same thing. The only reason WPs/DoKs can stand at the back and heal is the chalice/book regen rates on their mechanic points (Righteous Fury/Soul Essence). I've seen some fantastic rear-line WP healers, but they never go 2-handed, they have to use a book (the source of their mechanic regeneration). So fix the RF regeneration, as Rozerick suggests, and the main problem Sibelle has vanishes...

Or am I missing something here...?

-L

[Sibelle]

Sibelle, you are pretty much just putting words in everyones mouth to continue the argument, just give it up already.

Except maybe for the RF regeneration, WP's and DoK's are fine. I also do agree they need to buff archmages.
And as I've stated repeatedly, I don't have a problem with WP/DoK abilities or their mechanics. As with most people, I think that the Regeneration is the problem. However so many WP/DoK here seem to think they SHOULD be standing behind the clothies spamming AoE indefinitely and that I'm out here trying to get everyone nerfed. "Tanks" sitting behind me tossing out better heals than me is a problem. And yeah from my angle, you're essentially tanks.

Again, it's the ability to sit behind us clothies spamming AoEs forever that I have a problem with, I don't get what's so difficult to understand about that.

The only reason I've said ANYTHING else is because the WP/DoK here think that should be their role, to which I have to say you should give up something like the rest of us do.

Edit: I only refer to scenario numbers because they're a tangible point. This one time a WP beat me before the books were buffed. Tons of AoE damage, and we were all fighting within a small space so the group-less AoE heal helped keep everyone up. Cheers. He also still had to fight. I'm aware of the situational power of AoE damage vs. AoE healing. This is why I stress the point of WPs with 300K healing and ***0*** damage. And no, it wasn't the same situation.

And yes, I'm aware we're saying the same thing. It's the others twisting my words that cause me to say otherwise.

[Rozerick]

You realise that you two are, in fact, saying the same thing. The only reason WPs/DoKs can stand at the back and heal is the chalice/book regen rates on their mechanic points (Righteous Fury/Soul Essence). I've seen some fantastic rear-line WP healers, but they never go 2-handed, they have to use a book (the source of their mechanic regeneration). So fix the RF regeneration, as Rozerick suggests, and the main problem Sibelle has vanishes...

Or am I missing something here...?

-L

I've been trying to tell her this, but she keeps going back to the armor.

*shrugs*

And as I've stated repeatedly, I don't have a problem with WP/DoK abilities or their mechanics. As with most people, I think that the Regeneration is the problem. However so many WP/DoK here seem to think they SHOULD be standing behind the clothies spamming AoE indefinitely and that I'm out here trying to get everyone nerfed. "Tanks" sitting behind me tossing out better heals than me is a problem. And yeah from my angle, you're essentially tanks.

Again, it's the ability to sit behind us clothies spamming AoEs forever that I have a problem with, I don't get what's so difficult to understand about that.

The only reason I've said ANYTHING else is because the WP/DoK here think that should be their role, to which I have to say you should give up something like the rest of us do.


Please believe me when I tell you this, we are not anything close to tanks, and one good WE can drop us if we aren't being healed by another person. Get a WP to tier 4 and you will know what I mean.

[Arrelaine]

They're not essentially tanks. Their armor is far below a tank's armor. On my zealot I survive longer than they do solely because I have a single target heal, one instant and one cast. They have aoe heals and hots. Their armor doesn't do much if they're focused fired. I've killed WPs on my sorceress faster than I can kill a runepriest or AM.

Also, I agree with people that they're probably better balanced than any of the other healers.

[Tykero]

The regen on the books/chalices is fine.

It's available to every other healer in the form of various AP regen items, potions, abilities, and tactics.

WPs/DoKs simply do not have the healing tools to backline heal as well as another healer. They can heal for more, but not better. Their heals are largely party-based. They can't combat focus fire in the backline. They have terrible out-of-party heals, lack the utility of other careers, have the worst resurrection abilities, and their survivability is largely dependant on their somewhat higher armor values.

[jdela13]

I would argue scenarios make for 20% of the game if even that and only people who are not in highly organized guilds play them on a daily basis. The rest are locking zones and pushing forts. So yes, I do disagree with your initial statement but I agree that scenarios and RvR are different in terms of balance hence why basing anything on scenarios alone is just outright wrong.

Also, people are not saying that you should ignore scenarios when talking about balance, but that you should not focus on the scoreboards since they seldom tell the story of that particular scenario. If you're going to interpret a scoreboard picture without actually having been there, it is mostly guess work. Sure, you can draw some conclusions from the healing/damage ratios, amount of kills to overall damage ratios and so forth but you will also miss many things that all affect the outcome. Without a fraps of the fight or a detailed description from both sides scoreboards offer very limited information. Now, if you base your balancing on that information you will most likely do the game more harm than good.



Best in what way? Specced in what way? You do realise that there's several different healing builds around also, right? If you're gonna claim something you need to also prove it, preferrably with something that isnt affected by a myriad of things like scenario scoreboards are.



Yes, we have better armor while Shamans for example have a second, passive detaunt and a runspeed boost allowing them to escape the enemy. Our detaunt is also single target while many of the MDPS classes and WPs have access to AoE detaunts. Also, if we choose to stay at the backlines we knowingly prevent ourselves from using our burst heal, Rend Soul and at the same time stop dealing damage. So while we have higher armor even at the back, our DPS takes a nose dive and our healing will be down to the group heals and 2 HoTs.

Btw, I'd like some proof from you to back the statement saying we can take much more beating when specced for healing, just to see what you're comparing us to and what do you think we can do in such a situation.



Subject to all the immunities and AoE rules, meaning it is capped on how many people it will hit and in big fights pretty much everyone is on the immunity timer already and you'll just do the 600 dmg and nothing else. DR R4 morale for example is much, much better. Universal Confusion is really useful only in small fights or as one of the first CC used on the enemy while engaging.



Anyone can make broad statements like that, but do you have hard numbers to back them up? Our Group heal has the exact same power as the other healers have, the only difference is that ours is on 1s cast while theirs is 3s. I'd actually suggest this thread for you: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218981 it is a basic rundown of DoK/Shammy/Zealot.

You're making a false assumption btw in saying that DoKs are hybrids and the two others are pure archetypes. They're all hybrids in the same way, DoKs just do it in melee while Zealots and Shamans are ranged. They have DPS and debuff in their trees just like DoKs do. Now, if they were pure archetypes they would be totally concentrated around healing.

And, in the end we are less effective. We have the longest res and lack in single target heals. Yes, we can spam the group heal to some extent and if there's a proper target around we can push out some nice burst healing but we cant 100% of the time drop big heals on people. If we're not in melee range and only one member is taking damage, all we can do is put HoTs up and spam the group heal while the other healers will HoT and then spam the big heal which has over twice the power of the group heals and due to longer cast time benefits more from Willpower.



We can go frontline if the fight isnt a huge one. But in bigger fights, the amount of AoE damage and CC makes it pointless for a healing class to rush in. We'll be of no use to our team when we're getting CC'd to Kingdom come. So yes, we're more the skirmishing type and backline support in there, meaning that out of three trees only one is really viable for massive fights and that is our healing tree.

I'm not saying that there is nothing that should be changed, but I'm a firm believer in doing things the right way and that includes having sufficient proof and data to back things up. I was quite happy with DoKs to begin with and the changes to our skills made me one happy camper. The change to chalices and tomes was a bit overdone in my opinion and I'd drop them to 3/6/9 respectively just like many other DoKs and WPs have suggested in various threads across many sections of the forums. Other than that, I would actually focus on fixing the remaining broken tactics and skills on both of the classes AND all of the other healers. There's no point in talking about balance when many classes are still unable to use their tools in the way they should.

You make me laugh. Firstly, I never not even once mentioned scenario numbers, so get that out of your head. Second I love the logic. Don't look at scenario numbers because they do not count, but look at the numbers in wardb because they count and will show you how little our heals do. Numbers mean nothing. All numbers are worthless and can be made to look as good or bad as you like.

What you need to look at is what the class has in conjunction with everything and overall how does it perform. You can't do that with all the theory crafting in the world. Play through scenarios and ORVR with classes and you will notice what works and what does not. My proof is in the pudding while actually playing. It is in the reaction of those I play with where DoKs have moved up the target list.

Also understand that I am not saying it is necessarily broken, perhaps DoKs (and WPs I don't know) are working as they are suppossed to and Shaman, Zealots, Rune Priests, and Arch Mages are not. And lastly this is in regards to scenarios only, but DoKs are fantastic healers in scenarios and by actually playing have proven themselves to be one of the best if not the best healers in scenarios.

As to the statement of 20% play scenarios, I think that is off. I have no numbers and neither do you to back it up. Take out PvE and I think it is closer to 50/50. If you have 2-3 warbands in a given tier for each side that is 144 players. I would imagine there are at least that much in scenarios at any given time in any tier including tier 4 or scenarios would not pop so often. So again balance in scenarios is important. I didn't make the game that way, Mythic did. I would be fine without scenarios and not having to worry about balancing them, but they are for better or worse a part of life. Even worse they give hard numbers at the end that suppossedly mean or prove something. But then again so does wardb which people seem to take even more as gospel as to the worth of a class where it is just as meaningless out of context.

[Khaelann]

You make me laugh. Firstly, I never not even once mentioned scenario numbers, so get that out of your head. Second I love the logic. Don't look at scenario numbers because they do not count, but look at the numbers in wardb because they count and will show you how little our heals do. Numbers mean nothing. All numbers are worthless and can be made to look as good or bad as you like.

No, but several people did and it has been a trend in every whine thread about DoKs and WPs so it is only logical to point out that scoreboards arent really telling the truth. Secondly, I didnt say that look at the wardb since those are the base powers. I suggest you go and check how Willpower affects the different heals for example and while you're doing it check how easily a DoK/WP can reach the same amounts of Willpower as the other healers. And perhaps take note of what happens to their other stats when they do this and you might realise that we cannot do all the stuff people are saying here at once.

What you need to look at is what the class has in conjunction with everything and overall how does it perform. You can't do that with all the theory crafting in the world. Play through scenarios and ORVR with classes and you will notice what works and what does not. My proof is in the pudding while actually playing. It is in the reaction of those I play with where DoKs have moved up the target list.

I'm playing my second DoK up atm and I do it by pretty much only RvR so yeah, I've been there, done that. I was able to outheal the other healers prior to any boosts to chalices, Sacrifice tree or to the skills that were not working on STR and people were whining even then. Now it is just more common since we dont need to struggle with the SE/RF mechanic so much. DoKs and WPs have always been up on the target list because they're healers and compentent teams can drop them very fast so I fail to see how anything has changed in that regard.

Also understand that I am not saying it is necessarily broken, perhaps DoKs (and WPs I don't know) are working as they are suppossed to and Shaman, Zealots, Rune Priests, and Arch Mages are not. And lastly this is in regards to scenarios only, but DoKs are fantastic healers in scenarios and by actually playing have proven themselves to be one of the best if not the best healers in scenarios.

I see far more subpar DoKs than I see good DoKs and the same goes for WPs. Thing is, people usually only notice the good DoKs and then they come here telling how they got outhealed or outdamaged by one while there was three others that didnt even heal as much combined as they did. The class has potential and good players are able to utilize that, but on average a DoK or a WP isnt shining there. So do we balance the game around the good players or the average players? If we do it around the good players most of the average players will be in for one hell of a ride and the forums will fill with the tears of people who dont have an organzied guild backing them up. If we do it around the average player as I think it is now, then you'll have some shining stars in there that are showing what the class can do but the majority will never stick out from the grey masses.

Then to the SE/RF regenaration and people saying that before the Chalice/Tome changes we werent able to backline heal. Well, sorry to burst your bubble but that is rubbish. We have been always able to backline heal because both of the classes got AP->SE conversion skills. Yes, Blood Offering/Sublication and then heal spamming wasnt as effective or as good as it is now with the charms but it was entirely duable, especially when you threw in a couple of Smites/Essence Lashes at times and used every opportunity to hit at a straying enemy melee or a straggler. This is especially for the Pink AM who is saying that we needed to be in combat before. Oh right, doing 2k damage in the course of 15mins might be combat for you but on a class that can do over 100k in that time easily it is not. When you use only 1-2 attacks in order to generate a bit more SE/RF between the Blood Offerings you're not really fighting, you're being a backline healer just like the rest of em.

Then to us wearing medium armor and being tanks... have you actually played a tank and a WP/DoK Sibelle? Our mitigation is on a whole another level compared to them and I dont mean it in a good way. As to being medium armor and standing more at the back, whats the problem with that? Having someone protecting the more squishy classes is now somehow bad?

[Sibelle]

"Then to us wearing medium armor and being tanks... have you actually played a tank and a WP/DoK Sibelle? Our mitigation is on a whole another level compared to them and I dont mean it in a good way. As to being medium armor and standing more at the back, whats the problem with that? Having someone protecting the more squishy classes is now somehow bad?"
Have you played an Archmage? Compared to me you might as well be a tank. That is precisely why I said that, and I stated that is why I said that. I know most tanks wear more armor than a WP, and guess what, they don't hide behind the paper-wearers either.

So again here's the thing. Your one-second heal deals almost as much healing as a Rune Priest's 3 second heal to the whole group. The immediate healing of my 1 second heal is ~300 immediately with some additional HoT over time -- to one target. And no I don't count the 35% healing buff to that spell because that tactic is worthless. Yours does ~1000 to 6. With spell pushback that becomes a very effective way to keep people up.

Fine.

Except that before you couldn't sit behind me and spam it indefinitely.

OKay, so Rune Priests have survivability. That's what they are. Healers with survivability.

AMs have none. And our DPS is garbage. Some people mention being nerfed. I don't notice because I don't do DPS. Never tried. I broke 10K damage like ... once ever because I was goofing off.

And then we have Warrior Priests(/DOKs)... capable of being front-line fighters and getting the tools to be as such.

Oh wait no... they're standing behind me, the cloth wearer. Wearing Medium armor.

So how about it... double the power of my Shield of Saphery? Increase duration? Both would be nice. After all, if you're standing behind me in Medium armor while I've got paper on, then some sort of defense should be given to us poor AMs. All of the Isha tree and it barely absorbs a hit. :\ You've got medium armor. I'd say that's a fair trade.

[Tykero]

Have you played an Archmage? Compared to me you might as well be a tank. That is precisely why I said that, and I stated that is why I said that. I know most tanks wear more armor than a WP, and guess what, they don't hide behind the paper-wearers either.


So again here's the thing. Your one-second heal deals almost as much healing as a Rune Priest's 3 second heal to the whole group. The immediate healing of my 1 second heal is ~300 immediately with some additional HoT over time -- to one target. And no I don't count the 35% healing buff to that spell because that tactic is worthless. Yours does ~1000 to 6. With spell pushback that becomes a very effective way to keep people up.

Fine.

Except that before you couldn't sit behind me and spam it indefinitely.

OKay, so Rune Priests have survivability. That's what they are. Healers with survivability.

AMs have none. And our DPS is garbage. Some people mention being nerfed. I don't notice because I don't do DPS. Never tried. I broke 10K damage like ... once ever because I was goofing off.

And then we have Warrior Priests(/DOKs)... capable of being front-line fighters and getting the tools to be as such.

Oh wait no... they're standing behind me, the cloth wearer. Wearing Medium armor.

So how about it... double the power of my Shield of Saphery? Increase duration? Both would be nice. After all, if you're standing behind me in Medium armor while I've got paper on, then some sort of defense should be given to us poor AMs. All of the Isha tree and it barely absorbs a hit. :\ You've got medium armor. I'd say that's a fair trade.


You're comparing apples to oranges for the most part, and you neglect to mention the various defensive spells, AoE debuffs, and additional flexible healing spells afforded to the Archmage.

Regardless, I certainly wouldn't say that a buff to shield spells would be a bad idea. They're in dire need of some help.

[Nirmalti]

This thread has devolved into pointless namecalling.

Time to lock the thread.

If you have an argument about some part of the WP/DoK, create a post, and provide INFORMATION.

Not just "Oh I think WP can survive better".

This isn't constructive at all. We have people arguing 15 different things in the same post.

1. WP/DoK RF Regen is too high with chalices
2. WP Single Target Heal spec hit too hard
3. WP AE Heal Spec have too high armor

And of course another 10 posts on Archmage survivability. Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

There are plenty of other forums for random ranting, please use them.

[Sibelle]

Edit: Removed.

[Ularon-WHA]

Right.

Consider this a warning for the thread. Not addressing anyone in particular, but please remember to be respectful 100% of the time. Posting in an ad hominem manner is usually unwise.

Ta.

[Stormblazer]

Sibelle, I wish you'd quit mistaking the Archmage being underpowered for WP being as OP as you claim.

1. The cast time bug is CRIPPLING all ranged healers- it may affect melee healers, but to a far lesser degree, which in addition to the RF/SE regen makes them look OP I think. Plus

2: It's no secret that AMs are UP now. No one knows what Mythic was smoking when they heavily nerfed AMs in 1.06. IMO, all hybrid HoTs for ranged healers need to be put back to a 0.8 healing per willpower coefficient, Funnel Essence at the very least needs to be immune to pushback, Desperation needs to be given to AMs earlier, High Magic should only expend one or two charges per use and reduce AP costs, and transfer force needs to drain all AP that it burns. I mean, the name itself implies that!

3: Master Rune of Speed needs to be fixed for RPs (put back to 25% from the approx. nothing that it is now - seriously Mythic, nuclear stealth nerfs are not funny).

4: Winds of Insanity needs to be reverted back to it's original form for Zealots.

5: Absorb shields need to factor in mitigation first like they used to (again Mythic, nuclear stealth nerfs are idiotic and piss off your playerbase like none other)

6: The shield ability for shamans and archmages need to be usable on non-group members. The shield ability for all ranged careers need to have lower cooldowns.

7: Scaling per rank should be increased for RP/Zealot due to separate mastery trees.

etc.

[Alones]

The regen on the books/chalices is fine.

It's available to every other healer in the form of various AP regen items, potions, abilities, and tactics.



But AP regen doesn't actually do anything unless we just stand there not casting (which unless there are multiple healers per party, almost never happens), while from the sounds of it, tomes and chalices enables the DoK/WP to regen while casting. From a lot of DoK and WP posts, they NEVER run out of SE/RF with a chalice or tome, not to mention you have the ability to convert AP into SE/RF even if you did.

[Herodotus]

But AP regen doesn't actually do anything unless we just stand there not casting (which unless there are multiple healers per party, almost never happens), while from the sounds of it, tomes and chalices enables the DoK/WP to regen while casting. From a lot of DoK and WP posts, they NEVER run out of SE/RF with a chalice or tome, not to mention you have the ability to convert AP into SE/RF even if you did.


Yes he's correct, it regens while casting. I thought this was a little powerful... then again I'm Grace/Wrath. I use two handers and stay away from the books...

I agree with rebuffing AM also. Pick a way, It hurts watching you guys go down and not be able to do anything while I watch.

[Alones]

Yes he's correct, it regens while casting. I thought this was a little powerful... then again I'm Grace/Wrath. I use two handers and stay away from the books...

I agree with rebuffing AM also. Pick a way, It hurts watching you guys go down and not be able to do anything while I watch.

Thought so, now I'm not saying that it shouldn't be this way, but if the regen stays while casting, the regen should be a bit less than what it is now (from what I hear its a bug). But I still think Mythic should balance the other healing classes around the melee hybrid DoK and WP, as far as I'm concerned they (melee hybrid DoK/WP) are really well balanced, aside from bugged tomes and chalices... And yes, I agree 100%, buff AM's survivability, they need it badly.

[Xytres]

Sibelle: I don't know if people are reading what you're saying wrong or you're explaining it a bit abnormally but I get the gist of what you're saying and agree. Arguments on here are were probably getting more heated then need be due to miscommunication and little more then that.

I guess the biggest back and forth is the regen on books and chalices. I'm gonna have to throw my hat into the the mix of giving a thumbs up to nerfing it down a bit. I know all other healers can be considered hybrids too if they use their RDPS and yet THEY get it, but at the same time, our class (WP and DoKs) were designed around being MDPS and healing, not healing and drinking a coke while spamming heals. We're supposed to get our hands dirty.

An option to help this is to cut the regen on chalices and books in half but giving a small bonus gain to SE/whatever WP's get when they use an attack that replenishes it. This way if they want that decent boost to SE they have to go smack some stuff a bit. Just a thought whether a lame one or not.

Me, I don't care how many horror stories I hear about melee doks and wps in orvr, I'll stick with two swords and my sac built as a DoK. If I have to watch where I go, all the better. If I can't get NEAR combat then fine, I'll protect the healers from WHs and whatever else while tossing a few HoTs around and some group heals (not that its worth much since I use Divine Fury).

The point is we ARE a hybrid class. We get our hands dirty and we risk our lives to help the team. I knew it when I rolled the class. If i wanted a backline healer i would have rolled a zealot (course they're fugly so I actually would have rolled order and been an archmage. I like elves too much).

That said too, the DoK and WP GENERALLY work as intended with a few minor things needing addressed. But until then tweak the books and chalices a bit to solve most problems but leave it alone besides that for now. We're solid classes while OTHER classes who are really hurting need REAL attention, not minor fixes. AMs should be near the top of that list.

... right below the Witch Elves of course. They need to finally allow them to wear full plate. They always look so cold in their undies :P


*EDIT: On a side note, if you put WE in dresses/robes that cover there bodies, I wonder if the order/destro imbalance would work itself out where the guys (not all the guys) who play them just cause their lonely move on to something else ^_^

[Khaelann]

Have you played an Archmage? Compared to me you might as well be a tank. That is precisely why I said that, and I stated that is why I said that. I know most tanks wear more armor than a WP, and guess what, they don't hide behind the paper-wearers either.

No, but I have a WE and a Shaman alt and they both have the same armor. There's a post about armor values(unless it got pruned in the forum reform) explaining the differences between the different armor classes. Your AM has the _exact_ same armor as the WE and Shaman does and I know how little that is. However, that is all besides the point since this thread is NOT about AMs but about DoKs and WPs. If you want to compare AMs to the melee healers you need to make a complete comparison between them involving all the differences, strong points, weak points and situations where one is better than the other. Just going on and on about the armor isnt really helping anything.


So again here's the thing. Your one-second heal deals almost as much healing as a Rune Priest's 3 second heal to the whole group. The immediate healing of my 1 second heal is ~300 immediately with some additional HoT over time -- to one target. And no I don't count the 35% healing buff to that spell because that tactic is worthless. Yours does ~1000 to 6. With spell pushback that becomes a very effective way to keep people up.


And your Boon of Hysh heals for more than double of what my KE heals to that one target. This is the main difference between WPs/DoKs and the rest of the healers. Our group heal is our only large ranged heal. Yes, your group heal might be the same in power and have longer casting times but you also have big single target heals. This promotes synergy. While the melee healers are able to drop potent fast group heals around YOU have the ability to spot heal for even larger amounts. Dont downplay this since with competent teams that use both healer types those big heals are what save people while the group heals give enough time for it.


Except that before you couldn't sit behind me and spam it indefinitely.

We could pretty much to the same extent as we can now. Yes, we had to BO for 5s in between but spamming from the backlines was totally possible. Especially when the enemy sent in pets to feed us with free and easy SE/RF. Also, we cant spam it indefinitely even now. You will at one point run out of SE if you're casting heals at every GCD. We can go longer than before but not for all eternity.

I'd also like to point out that server lag is seriously screwing SE/RF regen up. In Fortress sieges where everything else is also lagging quite badly SE regen from chalices can stop totally and using BO might not give any SE either, thus hindering our healing abilities ALOT.



So how about it... double the power of my Shield of Saphery? Increase duration? Both would be nice. After all, if you're standing behind me in Medium armor while I've got paper on, then some sort of defense should be given to us poor AMs. All of the Isha tree and it barely absorbs a hit. :\ You've got medium armor. I'd say that's a fair trade.

They "nerfed" all shields in the last patch either intentionally or through a bug. That said, you should take the AM improvements to a different thread since this one isnt about AMs at all.

[Litholen]

However, that is all besides the point since this thread is NOT about AMs but about DoKs and WPs.

<snip>

That said, you should take the AM improvements to a different thread since this one isnt about AMs at all.
That point is debatable, since the AM is also meant to be a hybrid healer (just RDPS/Healing rather than the WP/DoK MDPS/Healing), but Mythic's design fails abysmally to deliver in that regard. But I agree, focussing on comparative survivability between ranged and melee classes is like comparing chalk and cheese.

And your Boon of Hysh heals for more than double of what my KE heals to that one target.
Um, isn't that what Rend Soul (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9554) is for? I mean, maybe it's just my healbot-addled mind - my DoK is my alt, my AM is my main - but I use them for the same purpose (to deliver a big heal to a single target). RS takes the same amount of time to finish as BoH, and delivers approximately the same healing over that time - with the added bonus that this healing is delivered as a brief burst HoT rather than a long-build burst heal.

Khaine's Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9557) is better compared to Blessing of Isha (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9245), since they behave identically.

This is the main difference between WPs/DoKs and the rest of the healers. Our group heal is our only large ranged heal. Yes, your group heal might be the same in power and have longer casting times but you also have big single target heals.
I've tested Rend Soul and Consume Essence out to at least 100 feet distance between healing target and my DoK, and unlike the AMs single big heal (Boon), they don't need LoS to function.

But the point here is that for a WP/DoK to deliver the big, single-target heals they do have, they need to be in melee with something. An AM can deliver big, single-target heals from the <lolcats>safety</lolcats> of the back row. Ideally, pets and the like make the perfect fodder for these abilities, when I play my DoK, not least because they aren't protected by OYG so I don't need to worry overmuch about healing myself when hitting them.

As I say, the WP/DoK is a beautiful example of how a hybrid class can function. I just hope Mythic uses them as a template for fixing the other, lesser, hybrid classes.

-L

[Khaelann]

Rend Soul can be parried, blocked or negated by an absorb shield. More so, the amount it heals is totally dependant on the target you hit and it fails to deliver those 4 hits most of the time due to pushback or CC. And as you yourself said, it requires melee in the first place. Boon of Hysh also has no cooldown while Rend Soul has 8s meaning that you can do more than one Boon per Rend so no, they're not really the same thing. Throw in the difference in cost and the fact that Rend Soul is dependant on STR meaning that backline healers will have a very weak burst heal, if they even get to use it in the first place.

[Litholen]

Rend Soul can be parried, blocked or negated by an absorb shield. More so, the amount it heals is totally dependant on the target you hit and it fails to deliver those 4 hits most of the time due to pushback or CC.
Boon of Hysh is setback with every hit an AM takes, and interrupts regularly, making it impossible for an AM to cast when under fire (from either RDPS DoTs or MDPS).

Throw in the difference in cost
What, you mean "Free" vs "45AP"? Remember that AMs have to call both their healing and damaging abilities from the same resource pool, and the High Magic mechanic doesn't reduce AP cost.

I know they're operationally different - that was the point I was making. I just find they serve the same healing purpose - that being high-value single-target heal. My point, as I said, was that you were right in your assertion that WPs/DoKs should be and are less effective at range than the RDPS/Healing hybrid pairing of Archmage/Shaman (if those classes actually had a hybrid design that worked half so well as the WP/DoK's does) :)

-L

[Alones]

Boon of Hysh is setback with every hit an AM takes, and interrupts regularly, making it impossible for an AM to cast when under fire (from either RDPS DoTs or MDPs).

-L

The setback the same across all healers with their big 2.5 second single target heal, the setback was even reduced in 1.06 (or 1.05, don't recall)...

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8566

=

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9242

=

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1596

=

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1904


Also, is that a bug on WARDB? Or is Boon Of Hysh really a 0.5 second cast?

[Litholen]

The setback the same across all healers with their big 2.5 second single target heal, the setback was even reduced in 1.06 (or 1.05, don't recall)
Which was kinda my point :) The point was that DoKs/WPs only have the option to use big, single-target heals if they are engaged in melee or have morale abilities readied - making them less effective single-target healers if they hide at the back row.

Also, is that a bug on WARDB? Or is Boon Of Hysh really a 0.5 second cast?

LOL.

LOLOL.

Even with full High Magic (when our mechanic is meant to make this one an instant cast, following five consecutive DPS spells), the cast time bug means it takes more than 0.5s to fire. It's base cast-time is 2.5s, like all other ranged healer big single-target heals - the time on WarDB is bugged.

-L

[Sibelle]

"Sibelle: I don't know if people are reading what you're saying wrong or you're explaining it a bit abnormally but I get the gist of what you're saying and agree. Arguments on here are were probably getting more heated then need be due to miscommunication and little more then that."
It seems that way. And I do not know how to convey it any differently.

"Why do you mention armor" Because DoKs/WPs in this thread keep defending the idea that they should be in the back with the clothies. If you should be in the back with the clothies, then you don't need higher armor. WP/DoK are melee healers, and that is where they belong, in melee. It's only annoying because regardless of what you say, the WP standing next to me spamming AoE heals will NOT die as quickly to the Witch Elf that jumps them, ***regardless of what you say***.

I'm not trying to get their armor nerfed. I'm using it to make the point that they're melee healers. **Melee** Healers. You don't melee standing 150ft+ away from the real fighting.

"What does armor have to do with Archmages." Because if you make the case that DoK/WP should be standing in the back heal-botting, then for what reason are Archmages so frail? It certainly isn't for DPS reasons. I have never seen an Archmage put out respectable DPS, even when spec'ed fully for it prior to whatever changes may have occured. You are welcome to show me differently.

"Why are you talking about AM survivability" Because this is the "Class Balance" forum, and the survivability of the ranged healers is relatively balanced against one another. But now we have melee healers who believe they should be able to stand in the back and be as effective as ranged healers. That throws survivability into the equation because if you can heal effectively at a range, then you are a ranged healer.

However, people don't like nerfs and they like to believe they're perfect. Fine with me, I don't like shouting "nerf" either. It's never been my thing. So I suggested "buffs" instead.

The issues are all related.

I personally believe in group synergy. I spec and gear as a glass healing cannon, which works extremely well with the Rune Priest I normally group with. At least on the Order side, I like how things are with the *ranged* healers.


Also, is that a bug on WARDB? Or is Boon Of Hysh really a 0.5 second cast?
I assure you this is most certainly not the case. :)

Even when I use my Rank 2 Morale ( http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=695 ) it's still got about a 1sec cast time.

[PinkysBrain]

Oops, nevermind.

[RailDC]

"Sibelle: I don't know if people are reading what you're saying wrong or you're explaining it a bit abnormally but I get the gist of what you're saying and agree. Arguments on here are were probably getting more heated then need be due to miscommunication and little more then that."
It seems that way. And I do not know how to convey it any differently.

"Why do you mention armor" Because DoKs/WPs in this thread keep defending the idea that they should be in the back with the clothies. If you should be in the back with the clothies, then you don't need higher armor. WP/DoK are melee healers, and that is where they belong, in melee. It's only annoying because regardless of what you say, the WP standing next to me spamming AoE heals will NOT die as quickly to the Witch Elf that jumps them, ***regardless of what you say***.

I'm not trying to get their armor nerfed. I'm using it to make the point that they're melee healers. **Melee** Healers. You don't melee standing 150ft+ away from the real fighting.

"What does armor have to do with Archmages." Because if you make the case that DoK/WP should be standing in the back heal-botting, then for what reason are Archmages so frail? It certainly isn't for DPS reasons. I have never seen an Archmage put out respectable DPS, even when spec'ed fully for it prior to whatever changes may have occured. You are welcome to show me differently.

"Why are you talking about AM survivability" Because this is the "Class Balance" forum, and the survivability of the ranged healers is relatively balanced against one another. But now we have melee healers who believe they should be able to stand in the back and be as effective as ranged healers. That throws survivability into the equation because if you can heal effectively at a range, then you are a ranged healer.

However, people don't like nerfs and they like to believe they're perfect. Fine with me, I don't like shouting "nerf" either. It's never been my thing. So I suggested "buffs" instead.

The issues are all related.
[...]

Do you know what gives tanks their survivability? Armor is *part* of it, but it's only that. The rest of it comes from damage-reducing tactics, active abilities, having a shield equipped, and large toughness values. This is not necessarily a flaw in your argument, but it's a flaw in Mythic's game design, because entirely too many classes can put excessively huge armor debuffs on their targets. Warrior priests (and DOKs) go down just as quickly as your AM when a halfway intelligent group of 2 or 3 DPS get on them. For all intents and purposes, the WP will have about the same armor as you do . You'll be reduced to 0 armor, of course, so it's worse for you, but damage scales so ludicrously in T4 that this distinction is mostly irrelevant. Dead is dead. That is why the WPs in this thread are brushing off your comments about armor. If you haven't played "up front" in T4, you don't understand.

This leaves aside the fact that being up front gets you hit, by default, with concussive jolt, OYK!, universal confusion, quake, rift->3x PoS and triumphant blasting procs. The reason you see a bunch of WPs speccing salv and sitting in the back is so that they can actually do something instead of sitting there with full grey bars and wondering when they're going to get to play the game again. I won't even get started on the fact that one witch elf can still kill that WP with his "amazing, tank like armor" in no time at all, unless the WP is grace-specced... and lucky.

In other words, your appraisal of the situation is partially accurate, but you didn't really get the baseline causes right. You were correct that WPs "should be up front". Mythic didn't really do frontline combat correctly, though. The armor debuffs in this game are too long and too severe, and AOE knockdowns/disables are ridiculous, especially since every member of the destro melee A-team has at least one.

[Dashel]

40 Warrior Priest currently specced Grace. I've done Salvation for significant amounts of time as well, never heavy Wrath.

Warrior Priests are well designed in my view. Neither over or underpowered but hardly perfect. We can choose to be back line casting healers, front line melee healers or in between based on play style. I would suggest that my experience is that melee healing is much more difficult and dangerous but also more rewarding if done well.

Speaking of T4 only, our main issues are some outstanding bugs, survivability, itemization and a few abilities that need to be looked at. T1 through 3 saw varying levels of power, sometimes extremely hard to kill other times seemingly vastly underpowered.

A properly specced and geared WP can be the premier group healer in the game or a powerful burst healer that does significant damage, or a mix of the two. Group healers will do minimal damage and wont survive being attacked for very long without help. Perhaps longer than other healers, perhaps not, but certainly not to an overpowered degree. The recent change with books generating RF is too early to tell but it was a significant boost to casting healer WP's no doubt.

Front line healers are subject to all sorts of disarms, knock downs, disables and silences not to mention prime FF targets. We need guard and other support to be effective or else adopt a more conservative play style. Grace also got a needed boost in the C&C patch. Grace is still short of where it needs to be imo, but not too far short.

DoKs I'll asume are in a similar state although their rank 2 morale Universal Confusion is one of the best in the game. A huge game changer in groups even now with unstoppable working.

[Litholen]

our main issues are some outstanding bugs, survivability, itemization and a few abilities that need to be looked at.
Sorry, I'm very much in the camp of "Warrior Priests and DoKs are a fine example of hybrid design" camp, and the last thing I'd want to see is any nerf-batting done to them, but this made me laugh. Rather loudly. A WP complaining about their survivability. I think that this post did, in fact, call into being a small-god of Irony.

-L

[Waaaghinator]

This is just my opinion,and it is purely from an order perspective, but I think the DoK are relatively unbalanced. In a dozen scenarios last night I faced numerous DoKs, and each time I did so it was a lesson in futility. If there is any other healer in the party they seem nearly invincible.

The damage is also ridiculous. the difference between a marauder killing me and a Disciple is maybe a 3 seconds difference, when I have a choice I always pick another class over the DoK to attack.

The other issue I have is that the classes are ultimately selfish healing, and I have disliked the concept of the melee healer since I first started, classically seeing WP or DoK in the top 5 healers, and knowing they are mainly healing themselves. I don't blame the players, it's a bad design for the class.

Without revamping the entire class, my suggestions to balance them would be twofold.

#1 Any healing spell they cast that targets themselves is reduced by 25%

#2 If they are under the effect of any of there own HOTs they deal 10% less damage


or just nerf bat them completely, I for one am getting tired of unloading everything I have on them and not seeing any damage being done, and then dying to them at the speed of a dps class.


Vote nerf! :)

[Litholen]

or just nerf bat them completely, I for one am getting tired of unloading everything I have on them and not seeing any damage being done, and then dying to them at the speed of a dps class.
What class were you playing? If you're tanking, then they're sorta meant to outheal your DPS - they are, after all, your hard counter.

-L

[Stormblazer]

This is just my opinion,and it is purely from an order perspective, but I think the DoK are relatively unbalanced. In a dozen scenarios last night I faced numerous DoKs, and each time I did so it was a lesson in futility. If there is any other healer in the party they seem nearly invincible.

The damage is also ridiculous. the difference between a marauder killing me and a Disciple is maybe a 3 seconds difference, when I have a choice I always pick another class over the DoK to attack.

The other issue I have is that the classes are ultimately selfish healing, and I have disliked the concept of the melee healer since I first started, classically seeing WP or DoK in the top 5 healers, and knowing they are mainly healing themselves. I don't blame the players, it's a bad design for the class.

Without revamping the entire class, my suggestions to balance them would be twofold.

#1 Any healing spell they cast that targets themselves is reduced by 25%

#2 If they are under the effect of any of there own HOTs they deal 10% less damage


or just nerf bat them completely, I for one am getting tired of unloading everything I have on them and not seeing any damage being done, and then dying to them at the speed of a dps class.


Vote nerf! :)
Warrior Priests are pretty similar.

[Rozerick]

Sorry, I'm very much in the camp of "Warrior Priests and DoKs are a fine example of hybrid design" camp, and the last thing I'd want to see is any nerf-batting done to them, but this made me laugh. Rather loudly. A WP complaining about their survivability. I think that this post did, in fact, call into being a small-god of Irony.

-L

With the CC and people using assist more, we die pretty fast in the front lines.

If 3 MDPS start to attack us at once, or one decent WE, we are pretty much dead without secondary healing (RP, AM healing us).

Tier 1-3 we might be unlikable, but tier 4 is a completely different game for us.

Edit: Cut a part of the post out.

[Xerose]

I have played both a WP to T3 and a Dok to early T4. Both classes in the right hands are quite scary at whatever they choose to do. The book and chalice both are way overkill they were supposed to make it possible for us to rear line heal not let us spam heal without restriction like the top end chalices do. This is a real problem because the heals themselves are what they need to be. I personally run as melee heals or dps as i did not want to be in the back and to be honest i am a bit of a loner so to take the pressure off of healers needing to heal me i went with the WP and Dok as such i am geared for Damage and survival basically no willpower. But since the chalices came in i can put out rear line heals that are almost acceptable (mainly my aoe party heal.) in a scen i have hit 70+k heals consistantly because of my limitless SE. (that is not bad considering the only + willpower i have is my tactic)

Mythic had the right idea but, the chalice and books need to change a good bit.

This next part is geared towards those that think we are unstoppable damage dealers.

In terms of damage we can be built to cut down most classes but, the one thing that allows us to do this is most players dont realize how their skills can kill us. just keep in mind most classes have some way to deal with us effectivlty. SB tanks are a major annoyance because a blocked melee heal is no heal or dmg. A good WH or WE can gut us while we just stand there. Ranged classes just need to keep batting us away as if we cant hit you our heals suck.(again this is just in referance to a dok or WP played for melee heals or mdps) My biggest fear is a player that knows how to shut us down not the class im going to be fighting. (i do avoid all tanks as best possible just eat up too much time to kill when i can drop 3+ healers or Rdps classes.)

You will generally fight 8-10 WP or Dok players and have little problem killing them mainly because these players have not quite figured out how they will play a dok or dident realize exacty how some skills could change the flow of a battle. i have even fallen victim to my own ignorance of my class a few times. (like the value of consume enchantment) we can put out some crazy number in secn stats becasuse most of the time we are either spamming aoe heals or aoe attacks as much as we can. If you see a Dok or WP with 100k dmg check their deathblows and solo kills they are likely low meaning though a lot of damage was done most of it was not greatly effective on any single target.

[Litholen]

With the CC and people using assist more, we die pretty fast in the front lines.

If 3 MDPS start to attack us at once, or one decent WE, we are pretty much dead without secondary healing (RP, AM healing us).

Tier 1-3 we might be unlikable, but tier 4 is a completely different game for us.
You probably have no idea what an AM would trade in exchange for being able to tank a single non-WE MDPS, let alone an average-skilled WE :) My point was more than saying the class has too little survivability - effectively saying it needs buffing, and isn't powerful enough - could be viewed as simply begging for an easy-mode, invulnerable healer-tank.

-L

[Rozerick]

You probably have no idea what an AM would trade in exchange for being able to tank a single non-WE MDPS, let alone an average-skilled WE :) My point was more than saying the class has too little survivability - effectively saying it needs buffing, and isn't powerful enough - could be viewed as simply begging for an easy-mode, invulnerable healer-tank.

-L

I know, if they finally manage to tone down the CC, get the imunity timers actually working, it wouldn't be so bad for melee classes in general.

WP's and DoK's are probably the most balanced class in the game, I really hope they don't ruin that because some whiners want less of a challenge. It's as hard to kill a WP/DoK as it is to kill a RP spamming heals on itself. People are just so biased it's not even funny.

[Litholen]

I really hope they don't ruin that because some whiners want less of a challenge.
Agreed - I'd rather we were all brought up to the WP's level, rather than folks drag it down with envy.

-L

[Ravzar]

I didn't read the whole thread so I am replying just to the OP.

A WP can spec for very good healing (but only group healing doesn't have as much as AM/RP for outside group except martyrs blessing and 2 hots). It can spec for damage and healing but the damage isn't burst enough to actually kill someone generally. They can also spec for DPS and lose out on healing. Yes the DPS specs hit like a truck but generally only heal themselves and not others. The healing specs can heal very well but they are almost harmless damage wise.

You can't see one WP do 150k damage and then one do 300k healing then put them together and say oh they can do both of these at once. At best grace spec will do over 100k of damage and healing but a lot is healing themselves too. The basis for so much healing is also prayer of devotion which can account for 40 - 50k of healing in a scenario. It is an aura which gives everyone within 150ft, so long as they are in your group, a 20% chance to heal themselves for 250 health.

It doesn't really seem to effective to me. That healing is way to unreliable. The only complaint I think people legitamately have is amount of RF and SE books and chalices regenerate. There may be some claim that it should be toned down. If they do tone it down though I want touch of the divine fixed and returned to its former glory. They nerfed our healing before giving us RF regen.

[Stormblazer]

There may be some claim that it should be toned down. If they do tone it down though I want touch of the divine fixed and returned to its former glory. They nerfed our healing before giving us RF regen.
What did they break about TotD? Other than the cast time bug that affects every freaking class and should've been fixed yesterday.

[Ravzar]

What did they break about TotD? Other than the cast time bug that affects every freaking class and should've been fixed yesterday.

Asides from the stupid cast time bug which really screws our healing in pve I find, the cooldown is happening after the complete spell animation. It wasn't doing that before. Something seemed to change. I may be mistaken and it is all the cast time bug though. That REALLY needs to be fixed. It is bloody stupid.

[Sibelle]

Asides from the stupid cast time bug which really screws our healing in pve I find, the cooldown is happening after the complete spell animation. It wasn't doing that before. Something seemed to change. I may be mistaken and it is all the cast time bug though. That REALLY needs to be fixed. It is bloody stupid.
Then it was most likely a bug before.

Cooldowns aren't supposed to occur until the spell has been fired. 'Cause I certainly would love it if the cooldown on my Rezz occurred when I started casting it, not after someone's been rezzed. :)

[Iselin]

Yes the DPS specs hit like a truck but generally only heal themselves and not others.
I assume some play it that way but My R30 WP doesn't. There are tons of situations where high DPS = great healing for others. The most obvious one is spamming Divine Strike on a keep door that doesn't mitigate damage. This produces a pretty nice heal to anyone on the ram or those also bashing the door. It helps counteract the oil.

If you use Squared, it's also pretty easy to monitor who in your WB might need some extra healing which you can do easily with Divine Assault by hitting the same door for maximum damage... add the healing proc from Prayer of Devotion and this makes a Grace/Wrath WP a very capable healer of others limited only by the availability of soft melee targets. On ranged stand-offs we suck at healing of course--can't have everything :)

This is a well-designed class that should be left alone for a long time while they work on fixing the obvious problems with other healers... like the non-existent survibality of my R40 AM.

[Xerit]

After having my account inaccessible for a couple weeks due to problems with Bank of America, I was finally able to RvR on my T3 alt(destro) for the first time since 1.1b came out.

One thing I noticed was, Hybrid healers hit like trucks and heal like(if not better) than Zealots/RPs.

Now, I know they're meant to do that damage. They trade the comfort of range for up close and personal melee combat, putting themselves directly in danger. I realize they have an instant HoT and a Casted DH followed by a HoT, but those heals are terrible and eat through SE/DF like a knife through butter.

I'm wondering if they're performing a little too well. Put 3 of these classes together in front of competent players, and you have a pretty much unkillable 3 man squad that can really lay some hurt.

Timing their channeled attacks/heal defensive target abilities correctly they can heal through most FF, combined with timely use of Rank 1 morales.

This is only from a Destro stand point. I have not faced a DoK past tier 1, but the two classes are almost exact mirrors so I can figure it's very much the same for Order. I would push to say that WP is *better* spike healing because they're using a 2h'r instead of DWing, and it only makes sense a 2h'r will hit harder than DW. I'm not saying that's true, I don't know.


I'm just wondering if they hit too hard/heal too well(Single target) off of only one stat, str.

Thoughts? Comments? Experiences?

As I said, I'm iffy on this. By all means those two classes should be potent on the battlefield, and I haven't played either to a halfway decent level. I'm not entirely sure of their weaknesses. On top of that, any help would be greatly appreciated :)

You're right. Sucks for Order too. Doks and WPs need to be toned back down badly.

[Grakthis]

You're right. Sucks for Order too. Doks and WPs need to be toned back down badly.

We still die to WE's in seconds and Marauders after a slightly longer fight. Our rez takes FOREVER and we have a hard time saving someone who is dying to DPS and we have 0 chance of saving someone who isn't in our group and is dying to a good DPS. And the only real buff we got was the increased healing from our channeled attack/heal and that thing gets interrupted after the first hit in 1v1 situations.

The reason think WP/DoK are OP is because they are fighting higher level WP and DoK. At 31 and playing in T3 scenarios I was a healing tank... which seems ridic OP. but as soon as I ran into a 30ish WE or Marauder, I was dead in seconds.

[Ascent]

Is it because we can do damage in melee? That is actually a liability for the hybrid healer, not a reason why his heals should be crappier.To be honest, it's the goal of every enemy MDPS to put your squishy healers in melee range.

[yukishiro1]

The books/chalices need to top out at 8ish mechanic/sec, not 12. And AMs and Zealots need a pretty major buff, with RPs and Shamans needing a lesser one.

[firecow]

Zephris is on the money here.

Right now WP and DOK are rather godly in RVR. Their single target is good enough now to keep themselves up and viable on the frontlines if that's where they want to be. And imo, they are more viable upfront than many other melee, due to their several thousand heal from divine assault or the DOk equivilent.

The really phenomenal WP are pushing out almost equal levels of damage to healing ratio even as melee spec. This is something that should draw huge attention to the glaring performance difference between the more pure healers vs the melee hybrid healers. I'd really like to see at least some semblance of parity. As it is right now, healers trying to perform the damage to heal ratio game severely gimp their group.

They need to tie more of the healer's damage to heal their defensive targets for viable amounts. Right now, this simply isn't the case.

For the upcomign melee career review, I'd really like them to take another pass at the healers on both sides to bring them up to closer to par with their hybrid counterparts.

Evidence is showing us that clearly, Mythic knows how to make viable healers for this game's intended combat environment. The DOK and WP is a clear cut example of this.

[firecow]

I have played both a WP to T3 and a Dok to early T4. Both classes in the right hands are quite scary at whatever they choose to do. The book and chalice both are way overkill they were supposed to make it possible for us to rear line heal not let us spam heal without restriction like the top end chalices do. This is a real problem because the heals themselves are what they need to be. I personally run as melee heals or dps as i did not want to be in the back and to be honest i am a bit of a loner so to take the pressure off of healers needing to heal me i went with the WP and Dok as such i am geared for Damage and survival basically no willpower. But since the chalices came in i can put out rear line heals that are almost acceptable (mainly my aoe party heal.) in a scen i have hit 70+k heals consistantly because of my limitless SE. (that is not bad considering the only + willpower i have is my tactic)

Mythic had the right idea but, the chalice and books need to change a good bit.

This next part is geared towards those that think we are unstoppable damage dealers.

In terms of damage we can be built to cut down most classes but, the one thing that allows us to do this is most players dont realize how their skills can kill us. just keep in mind most classes have some way to deal with us effectivlty. SB tanks are a major annoyance because a blocked melee heal is no heal or dmg. A good WH or WE can gut us while we just stand there. Ranged classes just need to keep batting us away as if we cant hit you our heals suck.(again this is just in referance to a dok or WP played for melee heals or mdps) My biggest fear is a player that knows how to shut us down not the class im going to be fighting. (i do avoid all tanks as best possible just eat up too much time to kill when i can drop 3+ healers or Rdps classes.)

You will generally fight 8-10 WP or Dok players and have little problem killing them mainly because these players have not quite figured out how they will play a dok or dident realize exacty how some skills could change the flow of a battle. i have even fallen victim to my own ignorance of my class a few times. (like the value of consume enchantment) we can put out some crazy number in secn stats becasuse most of the time we are either spamming aoe heals or aoe attacks as much as we can. If you see a Dok or WP with 100k dmg check their deathblows and solo kills they are likely low meaning though a lot of damage was done most of it was not greatly effective on any single target.

The books and chalice need to stay as is for PVE. In RVR, it's a bit over the top. Sure it was harder prior to the book/chalice buff, but it was still manageable. Healign *should* be tough in RVR. Healing on my AM is tough. Healing on my WP was tough, albeit it was the proper care and management of our healing resource. It could be argued that the hybrid mechanic was overly tough to be an efficient healer, even if specced for it. The books help a great deal with this. Any change should be 3, 6, 9 regen.

Without the book regens as is currently, pve, which IS part of the game, makes having a WP around an afterthought. It's just too highly inefficient to supplicate perpetually.

[Chakraa]

The books and chalice need to stay as is for PVE. In RVR, it's a bit over the top. Sure it was harder prior to the book/chalice buff, but it was still manageable. Healign *should* be tough in RVR. Healing on my AM is tough. Healing on my WP was tough, albeit it was the proper care and management of our healing resource. It could be argued that the hybrid mechanic was overly tough to be an efficient healer, even if specced for it. The books help a great deal with this. Any change should be 3, 6, 9 regen.

Without the book regens as is currently, pve, which IS part of the game, makes having a WP around an afterthought. It's just too highly inefficient to supplicate perpetually.


I think the book/chalice is fine as is even in RVR. DOK/WP have very limited single target healing and horrible ressing. The ability to spam group heal is there bread and butter. If your assist train focus through a group heal every 2 seconds you were going to lose anyway.

[mach4]

This thread, it should be renamed "Teach me about WAR mechanics beacuse I am T3 and need help".

1. There are no hybrid healers, there are healers in WAR, all of which can spec DPS, or healing, or debuffing, or all three.

2. WP/DOKs pre-SE/RF regen were broken, not useful as a healer or DPS.

3. WP/DOKs are the best GROUP and AOE healers in the game.
They are also the worst FF healers, and horrible out of group FF healers and near-useless rezzers.

4. WP/DOK get armor because they lose ranged attacks. am/rp/ze/sha get ranged attacks and give up armor.


Now, that's how the game is designed. In practice:

1. You give up SE regen on a DOK if you dual wield. Issue balanced.
2. If you do use a chalice, even a purple chalice if you spam heals you run out of SE and have to BO (shorter time). Still balanced.
3. DOK/WP typically have the highest chart healing for the same reason BW/engi/magus/sorc often have the highest chart damage, they use a more efficient full group heal.

Do WP/DOK typically do the same healing as a primary healer, when they melee, vs balanced good groups? Of course not, who really thinks this?

You can get about half a primary healers healing if you run full DPS, but 75% of that healnig is SELF HEALING, i.e. damage sinking. Let's see an IB or SM post how much damage they absorb/mitigate every scenario to get an idea of what damage they sink. Only difference is melee WP/DOK damage sinking is shown in large part as healing on charts.

WP have a distinct advantage in that even without a book, they have RF regen tactics.
DOKs have none.
WPs have a distinct advnatge in that they have healing tactics to suppliment their heals.
DOKs have none.

Zealots and shaman still toute that they are the premier FF/burst healers, and they are. And they are 100% better at that this than most DOk/WP out of group, to boot (And 12+ groups are more common than 6 man in RvR).

So, now that you know how it works, and how it was designed, I'm sure you'll find T4 fun once you freaking get there. Try to ask for help without attempting to make a thread claiming something that is both factually wrong, and that you know you knew nothing about.

[Chakraa]

This thread, it should be renamed "Teach me about WAR mechanics beacuse I am T3 and need help".

1. There are no hybrid healers, there are healers in WAR, all of which can spec DPS, or healing, or debuffing, or all three.

2. WP/DOKs pre-SE/RF regen were broken, not useful as a healer or DPS.

3. WP/DOKs are the best GROUP and AOE healers in the game.
They are also the worst FF healers, and horrible out of group FF healers and near-useless rezzers.

4. WP/DOK get armor because they lose ranged attacks. am/rp/ze/sha get ranged attacks and give up armor.


Now, that's how the game is designed. In practice:

1. You give up SE regen on a DOK if you dual wield. Issue balanced.
2. If you do use a chalice, even a purple chalice if you spam heals you run out of SE and have to BO (shorter time). Still balanced.
3. DOK/WP typically have the highest chart healing for the same reason BW/engi/magus/sorc often have the highest chart damage, they use a more efficient full group heal.

Do WP/DOK typically do the same healing as a primary healer, when they melee, vs balanced good groups? Of course not, who really thinks this?

You can get about half a primary healers healing if you run full DPS, but 75% of that healnig is SELF HEALING, i.e. damage sinking. Let's see an IB or SM post how much damage they absorb/mitigate every scenario to get an idea of what damage they sink. Only difference is melee WP/DOK damage sinking is shown in large part as healing on charts.

WP have a distinct advantage in that even without a book, they have RF regen tactics.
DOKs have none.
WPs have a distinct advnatge in that they have healing tactics to suppliment their heals.
DOKs have none.

Zealots and shaman still toute that they are the premier FF/burst healers, and they are. And they are 100% better at that this than most DOk/WP out of group, to boot (And 12+ groups are more common than 6 man in RvR).

So, now that you know how it works, and how it was designed, I'm sure you'll find T4 fun once you freaking get there. Try to ask for help without attempting to make a thread claiming something that is both factually wrong, and that you know you knew nothing about.


This is the correct answer............. END OF THREAD

[hammer9999]

Well if I'm healing I'm doing a lot less damage and if I'm dps'ing I'm doing a lot less healing (except maybe hots and the odd divine assault). But the books definately could be toned down a bit, we shouldnt be topping the charts considering our versatility. Except you could say its due to the spread out nature of the healing, same way magus/engies top the charts.

[hammer9999]

WP have a distinct advantage in that even without a book, they have RF regen tactics.
DOKs have none.
WPs have a distinct advnatge in that they have healing tactics to suppliment their heals.
DOKs have none.


Except that the WP tactics you refer to are so poor 9/10 WP's dont slot them. Most stuff cleansing power works on you can heal through just as well and use the slot for something else, and the RF regen stuff only procs small numbers once every 3 seconds compared to the much larger sums you get from books making them negligible. Almost every advantage WP had is made pretty much obselete by books/chalices.

[Brindlefox]

With the CC and people using assist more, we die pretty fast in the front lines.

If 3 MDPS start to attack us at once, or one decent WE, we are pretty much dead without secondary healing (RP, AM healing us).


And this quote pretty much sums up 90% of the 'defense' of WP/DOK's. Basically, if the entire team FF us, we can die. Shouldn't any class die when 3 MDPS are FF on them?? The fact that it takes 3+ DPS FF on a single WP to have any chance of burning throught their heals IS THE PROBLEM.

When you get 3 WP running together, an entire scenario's worth of DPS can't kill one. I've been on the receiving end too many times n scenarios where 3+ top rank WP EACH scored 450,000 healing... unstoppable.

[Rozerick]

And this quote pretty much sums up 90% of the 'defense' of RP/DOK's. Basically, if the entire team FF us, we can die. Shouldn't any class die when 3 MDPS are FF on them?? The fact that it takes 3+ DPS FF on a single RP to have any chance of burning throught their heals IS THE PROBLEM.

When you get 3 RP running together, an entire scenario's worth of DPS can't kill one. I've been on the receiving end too many times n scenarios where 3+ top rank RP EACH scored 450,000 healing... unstoppable.

If it takes the whole team to kill 1 warrior priest/DoK, you need to find a new team.

Two good Dpsers can take down a WP/DoK easy.

Sometimes one Marauder or WE is enough.

Your quote basically sums up 90% of the: "The grass is always greener on the other side" complaints.

Edit: Also, I think you mean WP* not RP, and I also think you're just ranting, all of them getting 450k healing would be impossible.

[Khaelann]

And this quote pretty much sums up 90% of the 'defense' of RP/DOK's. Basically, if the entire team FF us, we can die. Shouldn't any class die when 3 MDPS are FF on them?? The fact that it takes 3+ DPS FF on a single RP to have any chance of burning throught their heals IS THE PROBLEM.

When you get 3 RP running together, an entire scenario's worth of DPS can't kill one. I've been on the receiving end too many times n scenarios where 3+ top rank RP EACH scored 450,000 healing... unstoppable.

Damn those Rune Priests, they're way op!

If you cant even get the classes right you should stop posting.

For the record: Tanks can take on 3 MDPS at the same time as can other MDPS and even ranged healers. Know why? Because just like the DoK/WP that is getting hit by those 3 MDPS they too are getting healed by the other healers.

Both WPs and DoKs can be killed, even 1vs1. It just takes some skill and knowing your own class to do so.

[Prelate]

The whole time reading this post alls I could think of is "I cant beat a WP/Dok in 1vs1 pvp so nerf them."