Indefinite Scaling

[Nirmalti]

In this game, we have several different types of abilities.

1. Single Target Abilities (1 target maximum)

2. Group Abilities (6 targets maximum)

3. AE Abilities (9 targets maximum)

4. "All" (no maximum)

It is this fourth category that becomes an issue in large scale RvR (2 warbands+).

Why is this an issue?

Well, tuning for damage, healing etc. I'm going to assume is based upon average output values. If an ability does not have target maximum, then the tuning goes completely out the window.

Category 4 is not intentional. Indefinite scaling should never occur in a game with a heavy balancing component.

So what abilities fall into this category?

1. Dire Shielding. Does is affect group (6), AE (9), or is it indefinite? (10+?)

2. KOTBS and Chosen Auras. Auras such as the Strength, Toughness or Resist Auras. Do they affect (Beneficial+Detrimental) Group+AE, AE+AE, Indefinite+AE, AE+Indefinite or Indefinite+Indefinite?

3. Pit of Shades/Rain of Fire. Can they affect more than AE?

4. Morale AEs. Can they affect more than AE (9 targets)?

I know the following abilities USED to be Indefinite,but now have been remedied to be AE:

1. Martyr's Blessing. Is Khaine's Refreshment also AE?
2. Magnet and Chaotic Rift

Anyone know for sure if the above abilities are indefinites, or can think of other ones that I have missed?

I know there are a few more, the same way as dire shielding. That is, tactics that extend a single target to AE are not limited to the AE 9 targets. They all should be fixed.

Fixing indefinite scaling is one step to enabling much easier balancing for large scale RvR, which this game is suppose to be about.

[Ashonic]

A good post.

Some moves state in their tooltip that it affects "all enemies..."


To answer your questions :

-Dire shielding is Group based.

-Auras are group/indefinite. This is part of the reason they are mostly so weak.
(and on a side note, a part of the reason why OYG was nerfed)

-pit of shades / rain of fire seem to be indefinite.

-morale AE's seems to be indefinite aswell, but i cant confirm.



And i think things should be able to affect indefinite amounts of players. casting a AE knockback in a place like a keep door to stop the advance is a great tactic. it would be a shame to see only 9 of the hundreds stoped by your brave move ;)

[Ellessidil]

A good post.

Some moves state in their tooltip that it affects "all enemies..."


To answer your questions :

-Dire shielding is Group based.

-Auras are group/indefinite. This is part of the reason they are mostly so weak.
(and on a side note, a part of the reason why OYG was nerfed)

-pit of shades / rain of fire seem to be indefinite.

-morale AE's seems to be indefinite aswell, but i cant confirm.



And i think things should be able to affect indefinite amounts of players. casting a AE knockback in a place like a keep door to stop the advance is a great tactic. it would be a shame to see only 9 of the hundreds stoped by your brave move ;)

I think things like this should have a setup such as this:

It affects the first X number of people normally, as the player limited ones do now.

If there are more targets than the X, such as X+2 for example... then all other damage done to players above X is setup to take what a normal hit would be for, and spread it out amongst the players above X.

That way if the spell hit for AE 500 and there was 15 people that it hit, it would hit lets say the first 9 people for 500, and then the other 6 people would be hit for 500/6 dmg.

Same can happen with KB and Disables and the like. Just take the duration and divide it by all the extra targets above X, and thats how long or far the effect works.

Maybe have spells that use this mechanic exclusively. They do Y dmg, spread amounst all targets in range of effect. So the spell itself is based on the Y/X=dmg to each player. This would allow for some decisions in spell usage, as this spell might be super damn powerful AoE, but it wont be strong if you decide to just drop it in the middle of everyone.

Not sure the kind of load this would put on the servers as far as calculations go, but I always felt that AoE abilities would be alot cooler if they worked this way. Makes no sense that my giant magic AE spell only hits Y of the X total people there... but at the same time you dont want mass amounts of AE that isnt limited to total players affected without any decrease in power to the spell.

[Litholen]

Golden Aura (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9292) makes Radiant Gaze (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9264) slot into category 4. Also, Oil and AoE Siege Weaponry are category 4.

-L

[amobius]

All of the vaul specced abilities with expanded control and golden aura slotted turn into category 4 i believe. So potentially anyone within the radius get effected by the debuffs / radiant gaze damage.

[Torgull]

I reject your premise.

If I drop a 40'x40' column of fire, everyone in that area should have a chance to be affected.

AOE damage is easily countered by good healing.

Bring healers and don't stack like newbs.

[Findus]

I reject your premise.

If I drop a 40'x40' column of fire, everyone in that area should have a chance to be affected.

AOE damage is easily countered by good healing.

Bring healers and don't stack like newbs.

Even better would be if spells got weaker by distance from the point you throw it on. Could be really messy to program though since i havent seen any of this in an mmo so far.

[Nirmalti]

Good callon the AoE siege weapon ones (Repeaters, Hellblasters etc). I was wondering why I was chain stunned last Fortress attack.

There were 5 repeaters running.

The "repeater" type of siege weapons should be moved from Indefinite to Max 9.

The oil however, is well suited for indefinite, due to the simple limitations of geometry.

Haven't encountered Golden Aura (playing Order), but if true, should be changed in the same way.

If true for Vaul spec, should look at its Mirror in Black Orc. Do their tactics also expand indefinitely?

The BO ones I'm seeing are limited to group only, rather than AE. (An Bestest and No Choppin' Me)

[Arrelaine]

Pit of shades is indefinite, as long as they're in that circle, they'll all take damage. Same with Gloom of Night. It only goes on one person, however the damage will hit indefinite people in that 20ft radius.

[Litholen]

Bring healers and don't stack like newbs.

Form square!

Form line!

Form a figure-eight!

Form an ariel-view representation of the Taj Mahal!

Personally, I think AoE effects shouldn't be limited to a given number of targets - but that's just my ancient inner-AD&Der talking, and getting nostalgic for the days when volumetric calculations were required to cast Fireball in a sewer.

-L

[Ascent]

Even better would be if spells got weaker by distance from the point you throw it on. Could be really messy to program though since i havent seen any of this in an mmo so far.Meh, the game does check distance on every spell for range, possibly even twice. I imagine it's coming up with a very precise value when it does so, so scaling abilities based on distance should be easy.

[Ashonic]

Form square!

Form line!

Form a figure-eight!

Form an ariel-view representation of the Taj Mahal!
-L



LOL!!! i love this guy!!

i could just see a WB of making all these odd formations, while their enemies sit there going "what the heck?"

then it turns into a dance off.

[Ellessidil]

Good callon the AoE siege weapon ones (Repeaters, Hellblasters etc). I was wondering why I was chain stunned last Fortress attack.

There were 5 repeaters running.

The "repeater" type of siege weapons should be moved from Indefinite to Max 9.

The oil however, is well suited for indefinite, due to the simple limitations of geometry.

Haven't encountered Golden Aura (playing Order), but if true, should be changed in the same way.

If true for Vaul spec, should look at its Mirror in Black Orc. Do their tactics also expand indefinitely?

The BO ones I'm seeing are limited to group only, rather than AE. (An Bestest and No Choppin' Me)

Um... bud.

Those skills are for the Archmage, not the Swordmaster. Swordmaster/IB are the mirrors for BO, for mechanic/role respectively.

I think you will have a hard time arguing for parity between a healer and a tank.

[Torgull]

Haven't encountered Golden Aura (playing Order), but if true, should be changed in the same way.

If true for Vaul spec, should look at its Mirror in Black Orc. Do their tactics also expand indefinitely?


You've encountered it. It just hasn't made a difference in the fight which is why you've not noticed it.

Golden Aura makes a moderate power DoT (9s duration, 5s cooldown) have a 20' radius. Unless you are packed like lemmings, that is not a very big area. It has a -5% crit debuff which is nice but certainly not gamebreaking.

Basically it is good for stealing renown from the other warband or making you think you are doing some damage and getting more kb's in the scenario summary. It doesn't kill people or even seriously stress a healer. A single group heal more than counters the damage.

Add in the fact that if you play an Archmage and cast a damaging spell you will get hate tells from people who view a healer as their personal servant (or the fact that AM is a broken class atm) and it's not imbalancing.

(Full disclosure: my highest level char is an AM. Fuller disclosure: I started hating playing him after t2 and he is basically retired.)

[Nirmalti]

I see a lot of you are asking, why does this matter?

And I agree with you...for the most part.

If you are in the area, you get hit by the AE. Don't stack like lemmings!

Now, the caveat;

For LARGE SCALE RvR, you have no choice. The small confines of a fortress are such that it is IMPOSSIBLE to spread out.

Should 10 BW or 10 Sorc be able to kill a force of 400 simply because of their class design? I think not. Unlimited targets are not good if we want larger battles. For the most part, hese have not happened yet due to server crashes.

But they will, and Mythic shoud be ready

[amobius]

Sorry i didnt put this as a disclaimer before, please dont nerf AM vaul spec. If we get nerfed one more time i think i might have to reroll or quit.

[Jeru]

I reject your premise.

If I drop a 40'x40' column of fire, everyone in that area should have a chance to be affected.

AOE damage is easily countered by good healing.

Bring healers and don't stack like newbs.

Sure, if you put all group/aoe heals in category 4 and let it heal ALL people in range. Deal?

[Litholen]

You've encountered it. It just hasn't made a difference in the fight which is why you've not noticed it.

Basically it is good for stealing renown from the other warband or making you think you are doing some damage
*Sniffles* Let me have my delusions ;_; I still think Golden Aura is worth slotting. If only to provide absolute numbers when working out how many destros are repairing oil, thanks to the deathglare graphic.

Sorry i didnt put this as a disclaimer before, please dont nerf AM vaul spec. If we get nerfed one more time i think i might have to reroll or quit.
Quoted for fellow-feeling.

Sure, if you put all group/aoe heals in category 4 and let it heal ALL people in range. Deal?
All AoE heals, certainly - group heals remain as-is, though. Split your healers evenly between your warband groups, and that solves the distribution of group heals problem :) Done and done.

-L

[Constrictor]

A good post.

Some moves state in their tooltip that it affects "all enemies..."


To answer your questions :

-Dire shielding is Group based.

-Auras are group/indefinite. This is part of the reason they are mostly so weak.
(and on a side note, a part of the reason why OYG was nerfed)

-pit of shades / rain of fire seem to be indefinite.

-morale AE's seems to be indefinite aswell, but i cant confirm.



And i think things should be able to affect indefinite amounts of players. casting a AE knockback in a place like a keep door to stop the advance is a great tactic. it would be a shame to see only 9 of the hundreds stoped by your brave move ;)

I have two rank 40s and can confirm that neither of their rank 4 aoe damage morales have ever affected more than 9 people at a time. They're capped.

[Granoldir]

Did some playtesting with Discordant Fluctuation/Bane Shield against caster/melee critters with another chosen in the group using the two tactics to expand dire shield. He was higher into discord than I, and I higher into corruption. Here is what I found out.

- Discordant Fluctuation is unmitigatable damage that cannot crit. This is just like OYG except that it only affects spells. Also, like all auras, it only affects those in your 6-man group over a 150 ft radius. Warband leaders commonly put at least one chosen in each group due to this fact (if they are smart).
- Discordant Fluctuation does not stack with another chosen using it. Two buffs will appear for everyone in the party, but only the higher of the two will be in effect. This was tested using caster creatures and in scenarios, as the combat log did not register my DF effect (as the other chosen was specced higher than I). This is the same as all other buff auras. The fact that OYG was stacking was a bug that set it apart from other auras.
- Bane Shield with the corruption spec tactic affects any friendly target within 30 feet. This includes players, npcs, and even siege weapons. Since a keep door is not affected by any AoE, Bane Shield cannot be used on it. The number of people it can affect is unlimited, and this makes it highly effective in mass cluster groups, although the range is very short.
- Bane Shield is mitigateable with spirit resist. It is also affected by the Chosen's current strength, and has a chance to crit based on the Chosen's melee crit chance. It cannot be blocked, disrupted, or parried (dodge is right out). A Chosen must not block or otherwise negate the attack for Bane Shield to deal damage.
- Multiple instances of Bane Shield DO NOT stack. Thanks to the testing listed above, a long held myth on both sides can finally be cleared up. Much like Discordant Fluctuation, only the highest version will apply in combat, even though a player can have a limitless number of the buffs on them. This has been tested multiple times on mobs and players alike, as multiple stacks are not listed in the combat log (in this case, my shield was the only one in the combat log), nor did the targets die any faster with no other damage being applied. In ORvR, many people using AoE might see multiple Chosen bane shields pop up, but this is largely because the buff commonly lasts 17 seconds and groups get mixed up after the chosen(s) pop the ability.
- Bane Shield is an Enchantment, and can be dispelled by abilities that remove Enchantments. Swordmasters get the ability Shatter Enchantment much like Black Orcs, so this is good news for you when fighting a Chosen. Discordant Fluctuation, like other auras, is a Debuff and cannot be dispelled without killing the Chosen, even by the player that has that aura's effect.

This concludes my findings on those two abilities. Please spread the word that these two abilities do not stack, and are mainly designed to specifically counter AoE.

Because of its small range and non-stackability, it is unlikely Bane Shield will be changed from its current functionality of affecting all targets (although a change to only affect friendly players would probably be in order). Stacking Spirit Resist talismans/equipment will help avoid a great deal of reflection damage if you are on Order and this ability is causing you issues. It also protects from the majority of Chosen and Sorceress damage.

[amobius]

http://i39.tinypic.com/r85ij4.jpg


Was this before a hotfix then?

[Alones]

http://i39.tinypic.com/r85ij4.jpg


Was this before a hotfix then?


There is one big problem with that screenshot, it doesn't include timestamps. All that damage could have been done in a span of 2 full minutes or 15 seconds, no one knows.

Also, if you haven't noticed, there is only 6 different people reflecting DF back, which means it only works within a group.

BS on the other hand, only procced from 4 different people.

Draw your own conclusion.

[Torgull]

I see a lot of you are asking, why does this matter?

And I agree with you...for the most part.

If you are in the area, you get hit by the AE. Don't stack like lemmings!

Now, the caveat;

For LARGE SCALE RvR, you have no choice. The small confines of a fortress are such that it is IMPOSSIBLE to spread out.


I would rather Mythic invest time and energy into making the sieges less blah than dumbing-down and tweaking the various spells based on the constraints of the current keep mechanics.

LONGER range siege engines that can be placed in a variety of locations and that can TEAR DOWN walls solves sooooo many problems:


Choke points: Ain't no choke points if the walls are all rubble.
Bored melees?: With long range siege weapons you can sally out and destroy the attacking engines. Conversely, that means that melees will also be needed to defend the attacking siegeworks.
Mind-numbing repetition? Try attacking from a different angle, etc.

I like AOE's because they are the ultimate zerg-buster.

[Nirmalti]

I actually agree with you. If you all cram into the same small area, then you all should get hit!

However, there are currently no HEALING abilities which allow protection. All AoE heals are capped at 9 targets.

But there are offensive abilities, as have been mentioned, which are not capped.

This is a gap in the Heal/Damage balance, significantly reducing the role of healers as RVR battles get larger and larger.

[Torgull]

I actually agree with you. If you all cram into the same small area, then you all should get hit!

However, there are currently no HEALING abilities which allow protection. All AoE heals are capped at 9 targets.

But there are offensive abilities, as have been mentioned, which are not capped.

This is a gap in the Heal/Damage balance, significantly reducing the role of healers as RVR battles get larger and larger.
Some AOE healing should be indefinite as well.

For example (and only because I am more familiar with Order abilities) it seems reasonable that the RP Master Rune of Adamant is the type of healing spell that could/should affect all players in an area since it is a rune inscribed in a location that emanates a healing aura. Indeed, restricting it to group only is a little silly. I am not arguing balance here but presenting at least one example of the type of heal that could/should be AoE indefinite.

With collision and the natural spacing of players there is a finite limitation on how many players can fit in an AOE anyway.

One big fix that would help the keep-ramp situation dramatically would be to categorize AOE's as either "rains", "multi-shots/multi-nukes", "explosions", "gasses", "emanations", etc.

No AOE's should go through walls or doors (well, perhaps gasses should go through doors?). But depending on type some should go around corners (gasses, emanations) while others should not (explosions). Some AOE's should go around characters and terrain while others should have "shadows". Some AOE's should originate above the target player and not hit those who have a roof between them and the emanation point (ie: "rains"). Multi-shots/multi-nukes should require LOS from the caster to all targets. Etc. Etc.