WL V maruder

[nazaroth]

Ok just a quick few questions as this has really bugged me tonight, please correct me if im wrong..

Maruders have a AOE knockback and AOE Disable whilst we have 0, except for 2 snares one which is a lion ability,

there attacks cost les and are not specific to flank or rear of the attack last longer buffs of by passing armor at a higher rate too,

and they even dare to complain that fetch is OP??

do maruders get a snare aswel?

next bit is my current thoughts on the game:

I love this game and been playing it till release, but i'm starting to not find it fun and more irrating than ever, if its not the population balance thats ruining it for me but now how much better the destro classes have it, the WE V WH, how the BO are damn tough espeicaly the self healing ones when critted!

[Zzulu]

the only thing I have a problem with when looking at the WL and Marauder skills, is the fact that the marauder gets a lot of similiar skills, but without any forced positioning requirements. Essentially, it looks like the marauder gets the same skills, but simply a lot better versions of them.

Pretty silly

[amobius]

Marauders have a snare that can be kept up constantly with no positional requirement. Got tired of my archmage so i rolled one for a little order vacation time.

[Rimarlk]

With the exception of Fetch, most, if not all, of the mirror abilities are in favor of the marauder.

[Feclump]

the only thing I have a problem with when looking at the WL and Marauder skills, is the fact that the marauder gets a lot of similiar skills, but without any forced positioning requirements. Essentially, it looks like the marauder gets the same skills, but simply a lot better versions of them.

Pretty silly

Just try and play maruader before making these statements. After the last few patches, the WL is clearly better than marauder. It isn't even close right now. WL has far better range abilities which is king in this game. WL survive better than marauders in a crowd of enemies. I see WL kept up in enemy groups like they are tanks. That NEVER happens with marauders.

The marauder abilites look great on paper. in reality, they cost the marauder his life most of the time. Oh yay! I can knock down a few people with an aoe. Too bad I'm dead most of the time before they all get back from ranged focus fire.

[Feclump]

With the exception of Fetch, most, if not all, of the mirror abilities are in favor of the marauder.

On paper only, not in actual practice.

[amobius]

Just try and play maruader before making these statements. After the last few patches, the WL is clearly better than marauder. It isn't even close right now. WL has far better range abilities which is king in this game. WL survive better than marauders in a crowd of enemies. I see WL kept up in enemy groups like they are tanks. That NEVER happens with marauders.

The marauder abilites look great on paper. in reality, they cost the marauder his life most of the time. Oh yay! I can knock down a few people with an aoe. Too bad I'm dead most of the time before they all get back from ranged focus fire.

So what is it that actually makes the white lion tougher? I mean just saying that they seem to stay up longer doesn't mean that they actually are in fact able to absorb more damage. If a white lion is receiving focused healing i.e. from a premade and you are not, then yea it would seem that they are able to stay alive a lot longer.

[Haager]

I personally would give up concussive jolt for pounce. The ability to get in and out of fights is huge.

And no marauders don't have an AoE knockback.

[Riulassher]

I don't really see a difference in survivability.

Marauders have the lowest base initiative in the game. I am pretty sure they stack at least some initiative to avoid being roflcritted all the time

[Kanter]

WL have mobility and damage much high than Mara. Thats all.

Mara is gimp now. Month ago I have 300-500 hp after solo fight vs Mara. Now I have 3k+ after kill him.

WL and WE are on the top of the food chain now :)

[Mezkh]

WL have mobility and damage much high than Mara. Thats all.

Mara is gimp now. Month ago I have 300-500 hp after solo fight vs Mara. Now I have 3k+ after kill him.

WL and WE are on the top of the food chain now :)

That's it. I don't know about a paper comparison between the two MDPS but WL's are amazing right now. They certainly don't need any buffing.

[Mezkh]

Marauders have a snare that can be kept up constantly with no positional requirement. Got tired of my archmage so i rolled one for a little order vacation time.

Yeah but WL have Pounce. Swings and Roundabouts.

[jdela13]

Again in practice and playing the WL seems to just fare better regardless of what wardb says or scenario numbers say. I love grouping with WLs and when they pounce and I use Eagle Flight to a target (depending on the target we can usually take it out).

I think that Marauders are suffering because they are chop liver to WE. By this I mean I don't see many of them getting heals when I fight them, but WE do. They are still very dangerous if you leave them alone, but most people are not that crazy. When fighting the class it feels weaker than it was for whatever reason or perhaps the class peaked earlier than mine. I don't fear turning my back or having a Maurader on me the same way as with a WE. I can ignore the Maurader mostly and still be fine. If I ignore a WE I will be dead. I can kill both classes, but with Mauraders I can focus on a healer or RDPS class then get around to dealing with the Maurader.

Pounce is a skill that destro should have. It can change the tide because you can take out back line healers with it. Granted it may be suicide at times, but no healers means you can eventually take everyone else out.

[Powerranger]

Ok first of all when it comes down to singletarget and defending ur backlines

White lion >>>>> Marauder

When it comes down to AoE and CC lots of annoying stuff like : ap burn , morale burn , buildtime increase , initiative debuff ...

Marauder >>>>> White lion

The fact that white lions got so many positionals is because they are not designed to be an offensive character pwning ur backline.

They take out squishies and work together with a tank usually.
Just like me as a Monstro marauder.

U have to stop looking at the class itself , but what it is capable of in a party.

WL is pretty decent and can buff his MDPS team ( just like a Mara ) or debuff and annoy single targets ( pretty hard ).

Oh and they have a pet and 150ft insta catch.

U cant dodge a skilled WL that rly want to take u out.

@Some poster above me saying that they never loose a fight against marauders.
Must be sav or brut ones.

@ People saying gief us this and that :NO NO NO , dont give me that damn pounce nor do increase the range of TE.

Our abilities cost less , because we dont have a pet nor do we offer sick burst damage.

Oh and a marauder that dies after casting CJ must be the "1337str" d00d without 8k+ life and 500toughness.

We are mirrors , because we share the same role but in a different way of aspects.
White lions are the white mirrors.
Maras are the black ones....
U may see the same picture but from a different POV.

If player fail to see this picture , then they fail at understand how WAR actually works.

We dont have them 1to1 mirrors...

The whole playstyle of both realms is different because of them mirrors being different.
This is a good way i might say and should be kept like this.

That whole thing of "balancing" is built around giving u the positive sides of ur mirror without any drawbacks ( some people think that way ).
Sry doesnt work that way.

Folks have to wait and see till classes realise that theyre forced in some kind of way into a role and if u understand this , then u will become good at ur class.

Otherwise ur faking another one and fail horribly.
(Like brut marauders atm )

edit: lotz of "way" in my posts oh my gosh needz better vocabulary ( im from germany )

[Efertin]

WL's need most of their retarded position requirements removed and a proper AoE tree like the marauders have. Pet needs more survivabiliy and it needs to work 100% of the time, not 80% of the time or so.

No more AoE cc is needed, so they could take a look at Concussive Jolt and make it single target or something. WL's got a single target stun, so then they'd be pretty equal in terms of CC.

If these changes are done, Fetch and Pounce need to be looked at, however. 65 ft spammable teleport to your desired target with a damage component is just really, really, really good for a melee dps class, and Fetch is just retarded with the HUGE range on it.
No, I don't think Mythic intended that WL's, to which pets are iconic, send their pets to suicide runs just to use their one broken ability?

[Powerranger]

WL's need most of their retarded position requirements removed and a proper AoE tree like the marauders have. Pet needs more survivabiliy and it needs to work 100% of the time, not 80% of the time or so.

No more AoE cc is needed, so they could take a look at Concussive Jolt and make it single target or something. WL's got a single target stun, so then they'd be pretty equal in terms of CC.

If these changes are done, Fetch and Pounce need to be looked at, however. 65 ft spammable teleport to your desired target with a damage component is just really, really, really good for a melee dps class, and Fetch is just retarded with the HUGE range on it.
No, I don't think Mythic intended that WL's, to which pets are iconic, send their pets to suicide runs just to use their one broken ability?

why should they get a whole path dedicated at AoE ?
explain and obligerate.
this is a discussion here and not a wishlist.

[Efertin]

why should they get a whole path dedicated at AoE ?
explain and obligerate.
this is a discussion here and not a wishlist.


Because Marauders have one, and Marauder is the WL's role mirror?

WE/WH are the single target, assassin MDPS, WL and Marauder are the AoE/Debuff/Brawler type MDPS, yet WL totally lacks one of those roles, while Marauders have all three. (One could argue that WL's can't debuff either.)

[Rimarlk]

I posted something in the WL class forums just a bit ago. It's called Changes I feel will make the WL more enjoyable. I basically went through all the tree's and their abilities, core and purchased, and made some changes I thought would benefit the WL and make it more fun.

I also went and changed the Marauder's abilities that mirrored the WL abilities I changed. (Don't worry Marauder's. All the changes I made to your abilities were buffs.)


P.S. Not sure how to link something. It's in the WL forum, so just look for the title I gave above.

[Powerranger]

Because Marauders have one, and Marauder is the WL's role mirror?

WE/WH are the single target, assassin MDPS, WL and Marauder are the AoE/Debuff/Brawler type MDPS, yet WL totally lacks one of those roles, while Marauders have all three. (One could argue that WL's can't debuff either.)

Ok now let me enlighten u where marauders are not that good at..

singletarget dps.

The only good debuffs that a skilled marauder would ever want to use are :
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8424
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8413
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8417
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8418

3 of the 4 u only get through speccing them.
cutting claw can only be used in savagery and require a lot of mastery points in the path.
pulverize can be used in brutality and monstrosity , while it is a tankkiller-ability and cannot be used in the tankkiller-mutation ? wtf
Wave of Mutilation requires no mutation and has a verly long duration 21sec
Thunderous Blow is teh win but overrated and in the AoE tree ? WTF?!

Now lets talk about mara singletarget dps.
Some folks think they actually rock with their maras having over 9000str and wtfpwnzor tactics like <.< >.>

http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8435
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=523
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=521
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8441

To name the most used tactic-set used by WE-fakers.
Let me explain why i call them WE-fakers.
WE offer the highest burst ingame on the destro side.
Marauders slotting all their slots with : 2str tactics , one positional requirement , and one 50%armor penetration for mutation based attacks.

These mutation based attacks which benefit the most from piercing bite in the singletarget-MAX-DAMAGE path are :

http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8399
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8406

note that they only may be used in that mutation.

One is the same as Slice with a lower ap cost and positional requirement.
One is the same as Ruthless Assault but one hit less and 75ap cost.

Now i dont even know why i responded to ur post that u started like " BECAUSE THEY HAZ TOO SO GIEF MIRROR TOO "
So u say that Witchhunters should get the following things like the bullet mechanic changed to trigger on EVERY ATTACK and a +50%bonus crit-tactic and all finishers based on str too + a whole path dedicated to MDPS-nightmare , because ... WE got them too and WH lack in one of these roles -.-

Srsly this is a thread about WL vs Marauder , not a wishlist as i said.
If u dont have facts to back up ur statements then all ur efforts to start a rational discussion fails and u only start to throw random thoughts around so the whole thread changes its way to : NERF THIS , BUFF THIS THREAD.

Its like coming to a birthday party without an invitation and say that u brought no present.

Kind people dont do that , so be so kind and inform urself before u post in a class balance thread which is heavily moderated.

Back to topic.

I guess some people also dont know that the brutpath of Marauders is totally broken.
It has the most funniest tactic ive ever seen that simply right now does next to nothing:
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8442
It is an enrage modus where ur crits will be popping up like a pipe bomb.
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8431
This tactic would let the brut-marauder gain some more utility and buff the crit of others assisting him ... not working at all too.

Then we have totally lackluster morale4 abilites we could train except monstro morale.
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8455
only throwing back damage to ONE enemy that wants to nuke u not working on more targets ( dunno how it is after 1.1d ) but this morale4 + the 2 tactics stated above would totally nuke bright wizards.
If they crit u , the forked aggression will crit them too.
If ur below 50%health they will get a nasty critdamagebonus to it because of GI.
Sadly it is not working and if only these two tactics would work.
Then Brut marauders could be considered way more dangerous then right now.

It is a wall of text i know but i thought i let u know that WL are not the only class out there that has broken next to useless and stoopid abilities and tactics in their paths.

This game is only version 1.1 !!121 for frkn gods sake , what do u expect?!
Its okay to come here and post suggestions , its not okay to demand things because others got it too or /ragequit and announce it here ( not adressing u especially ).

I dont even want to know what kind of nightmare it must be for a moderator here on these forums to read through all that kind of threads like these.

Maybe my points are not even 100% correct and opinions will always be different cause were no 1to1 mirrors even if we are all hoomanz O,O

But i got 29days played on my marauder and r40 rr46 with nearly full sent and darkpromise set nearly topping the killing blow charts on my server ...

Manbearpig on Drakenwald Server EU.

Im Monstrosity btw and i do fully understand why we have a lot of complainers here.
They are frustrated that they have hard times against different classes or they are not satisfied with their HPS / DPS.
Thats fine , it lies in the human nature to complain.
But if u would balance a game around complainers then u could call this game World of Warcraft.

/thread

[Efertin]

I wonder why you're turning this into a WE v WH discussion (or a buff Marauders discussion?) Actually, I'm all for giving WH's the Kiss mechanic, and I've personally suggested that on the WH forums.

I don't know what you're talking about with the a whole path dedicated to MDPS-nightmare, possibly about the Carnage tree which is the best WE tree for killing squishies, not some anti-melee tree at all. Actually, If the WH is better than the WE in one thing, that's killing melee with their Confession tree. But now we're (again) talking about WH v WE in a totally wrong thread.

The thing is, that roles need to be mirrored, and I think we can safely agree that WL's cannot aoe properly, and they're as much "wannabe WE's/WH's" as Marauders are when they're single target dps'ing tbh (except their burst is probably a little higher?) and I think that your debuffing line is quite good too. 4 good debuffs is huge, and it's not like you lose everything else by speccing into that tree. WL's got exactly two usable debuffs (the better one needs the first tactic in the axeman tree), if we don't count their snare.

Broken tactics/abilities shouldn't be brought into the discussion, especially if you're talking about a class like the White Lion, who has TWO agro reducing/buffing tactics deep in its career mastery trees, and is probably still the class with the most bugs.


Overall, my point is that White Lions should have a debuff, AoE and single target trees just like the Marauders have, instead of all three being some weird single target trees. Maybe you should explain to me why they shouldn't have them instead of asking me to explain why they should have them, and not taking that "they're your mirror" as an answer?

I've only played the White Lion to level 25, so someone more experienced with the class is totally free to correct me if I'm wrong about something.

[Mezkh]

Disagree. WL shouldn't have an AOE tree, just as Marauders shouldn't be given a pet and pounce. I wouldn't like the mirror aspect taken that far. Same as WH shouldn't be given the kiss system and WE shouldn't be given guns, etc. Keep individuality on each realm please.

There is a reason that on the other two MDPS classes, WH have an AOE tree and WE do not. Look at the bigger picture. If you want to buff Order MDPS AOE, buff up the WH abilities.

And as said before, WL by far outstrips MAR in single target killing.

[AnarchZ]

I wonder why you're turning this into a WE v WH discussion (or a buff Marauders discussion?) Actually, I'm all for giving WH's the Kiss mechanic, and I've personally suggested that on the WH forums.

I don't know what you're talking about with the a whole path dedicated to MDPS-nightmare, possibly about the Carnage tree which is the best WE tree for killing squishies, not some anti-melee tree at all. Actually, If the WH is better than the WE in one thing, that's killing melee with their Confession tree. But now we're (again) talking about WH v WE in a totally wrong thread.

The thing is, that roles need to be mirrored, and I think we can safely agree that WL's cannot aoe properly, and they're as much "wannabe WE's/WH's" as Marauders are when they're single target dps'ing tbh (except their burst is probably a little higher?) and I think that your debuffing line is quite good too. 4 good debuffs is huge, and it's not like you lose everything else by speccing into that tree. WL's got exactly two usable debuffs (the better one needs the first tactic in the axeman tree), if we don't count their snare.

Broken tactics/abilities shouldn't be brought into the discussion, especially if you're talking about a class like the White Lion, who has TWO agro reducing/buffing tactics deep in its career mastery trees, and is probably still the class with the most bugs.


Overall, my point is that White Lions should have a debuff, AoE and single target trees just like the Marauders have, instead of all three being some weird single target trees. Maybe you should explain to me why they shouldn't have them instead of asking me to explain why they should have them, and not taking that "they're your mirror" as an answer?

I've only played the White Lion to level 25, so someone more experienced with the class is totally free to correct me if I'm wrong about something.

They shouldn't have them because Mythic decided such in the games 4 year development time, not sure how else to explain it. THe fact you have a pet alone should tell you they are not meant to be close mirrors.The game was not meant to be WOW with 100% cookie cutter mirror PVP fights. Keep in mind Marauders have a very limited amount of abilities depending on what stance they are in, while WL have no such gimmiick. On paper they look better, but you need to play one before you can talk.

[Efertin]

They shouldn't have them because Mythic decided such in the games 4 year development time, not sure how else to explain it. THe fact you have a pet alone should tell you they are not meant to be close mirrors.The game was not meant to be WOW with 100% cookie cutter mirror PVP fights. Keep in mind Marauders have a very limited amount of abilities depending on what stance they are in, while WL have no such gimmiick. On paper they look better, but you need to play one before you can talk.

White Lions wouldn't need a redesign to be viable at AoE, just a quick look at the hunter tree and CD from Slashing Blade removed. Tada, now they're basically equal to Marauders as Melee AoE. What you're saying is, that there should be no balance, even between mirrors, because Mythic decided so?

And looking at some classes, especially High Elf classes, I'm fairly sure that Mythic didn't decide anything about them in "4 year development time" Or the Magus, which was changed a few weeks before the release to make it the mirror of the Engineer.

Disagree. WL shouldn't have an AOE tree, just as Marauders shouldn't be given a pet and pounce. I wouldn't like the mirror aspect taken that far. Same as WH shouldn't be given the kiss system and WE shouldn't be given guns, etc. Keep individuality on each realm please.

There is a reason that on the other two MDPS classes, WH have an AOE tree and WE do not. Look at the bigger picture. If you want to buff Order MDPS AOE, buff up the WH abilities.

Except Witch Hunters do not have an AoE tree. Confession is as much an AoE tree as is our Carnage, as in, it's not. Like, really.

[LordofWar]

To be perfectly honest the WL >>>>>>>>>> MARA

They're just a more solid class, plain and simple.

WL have more survivability and better burst damage

Marauders have better AOE and snares/build timers but that only goes so far when you are alive.

Both classes have issues but marauder issues are much more serious than the WL. I would rather have a class with high survivability and pose a serious threat to the backlines of any zerg than a class which can cause some AOE harm, which by the way is only really effective against balled up order.

At that, as soon as your knockdown wears off you're just going to be focused fired into oblivious

[Powerranger]

Sigh , even if i posted a wall of text above ... -.- i guess the next one is coming.

Because im not a having a 40WL i cant go that much into detail and tell u whats working and whats not.
So if u guys got like 10bazillion broken bugged underpowered skills / tactics / abilities.

If not and u all just exaggerate i will post some abilities and tactics that doesnt make the WL a weaker mirror at all.
But before making a real comparison , i rly would like to have a 40WL tell me what is broken / bugged / not scaling with str / whatever ...

I dont want to make false assumptions nor do i want to get things buffed because people lack skill and the knowledge that some classes are not designed to be the PURE-MDPS class.

As far as i can tell and ive noticed in T4 and ORvR WL are much more mobile then i am and they have the opportunity to send their pet to stun or silence someone and afterwards fetch someone else.

I cant do that as a marauder , do i say now i want to have like 10abilities that the wl got and i dont ?

No, thats childish and serve no other purpose then venting.
If this thread has been started for a discussion about two classes ... then WL and Marauders only pls.

Any other classes that havent played it a lot cant rly tell about str and weaknesses of themselves.

[Tysis]

First of all I'd like to establish my credibility as a R40, RR47 WL.

As for this whole "Mirrors" discussion, I think it's bunk. While it's true that the Marauder and the WL are probably the most similar classes to one another, the pet factor throws a whole mess of complications into the mix. I have never played a marauder and therefore do not feel confident in assessing an appropriate comparison in terms of abilities. I will attempt to stick mostly to the WL side of things.

Fetch: This ability is very good. And by "very good," I mean incredibly awesome. That being said it is severely handicapped. We must have our pet out (obviously), but what most people don't realize is that the pet, unbuffed, is actually slower than a player. In order to be functional we have to use the "Speed Training" tactic (+50% pet speed). Additionally, fetch is notorious for not actually firing when we press the button. A lot of the time the ability doesn't work and just starts it's cooldown. There is also an immunity on knockbacks. If that IB knocks you backwards you can't be fetched for 10 seconds (This also means you can't be fetched twice in 10 secs, but fetch has a 10 second cooldown). For you squishies (Sorcs, Magi, Herders, etc...) in group play, you should blame your tanks if you get fetched. The lion dies easy (We get one crappy heal for it) and can be rooted, TAUNTED, stunned, knocked down, or disabled like any other mob. All of these effectively cancel out fetch. It's your tank's job to protect you and if they can't fire off a taunt or root as the lion runs by then you've got yourself a shoddy tank. Finally, the lion's pathing is terrible. You can actually run circles around him and he can't fetch you even with speed training (If you're good). All that taken as is... fetch is still a good ability but I feel as though it's right where it needs to be now. (There's a 15 second cooldown after the lion dies and it takes a few seconds to re-summon).

As for other abilities, Sundering Chop is our bread and butter in the axeman tree (I'm axeman like most WLs). Unfortunately the game has a lot of trouble recognizing the "rear" of an enemy and it often fails to do it's -50% armor effect. Blindside is good, but again requires a tactic to live up to its potential. Cull the Weak and Thin the Herd are good as well but are obviously more expensive than their Marauder equivalents. In my humble opinion I think pounce is the best WL ability (Fetch is too dependent on the lion and the fetchee [And their party members] not paying attention).

Thus I'm brought back to our "mirror" discussion. WL and Mara are cloudy mirrors at best. While both are MDPS, the WL is much more maneuverable and specializes in pinpointing damage on the weakest members of the destro throng (This can be either the squishies or any character near death). I never find myself putting up the damage numbers of the other DPS classes (SW, WH, BW), but I generally beat all except the BWs in killing blows. Marauders of course only have a mini-fetch and no pounce. They have very limited mobility, but are compensated with cheaper ability requirements and lack of positioning. Personally, I believe the trade-off is pretty fair, although I would like to see the rear-only requirement on Sundering Chop changed to rear or side like all other WL abilities. I do feel as though the WL does less damage than the Mara, though aside from the ability comparisons posted in other threads I can only add that I generally lose to a good marauder 2/3 of the time. Marauders and WL have exactly (Or nearly exactly) the same armor values and stat bonuses for the same pieces of gear so survivability should theoretically be similar (I don't know how stats like Initiative/Toughness compare at level 40) although I would contend that WL probably dies more since we're actually inside the enemy line whereas marauders stand in front of the line.

This leads me to my final point in that the play styles of the two jobs are very, very different. WL thrives in a highly maneuverable setting, we move ourselves with pounce and the enemy with fetch. As a result (Especially with pounce) we have a high risk, high reward playstyle that forces us to be constantly moving. Marauders also move, but they take a very straight forward approach. Unless order is retreating, marauders generally can't reach the mages with their pull. They do, however, load better damage with their higher base damage abilities, lower AP, lack of positionals, and knockdown/stun/snare/etc. Marauders are geared as front line fighters. Ultimately both rely heavily on the ability of their healers which is another reason why I hesitate to try and compare survivability (We'd have to compare AM vs Shaman, DoK vs WP, etc. to do a comprehensive comparison). Party PvP dynamics are what this game is based on, and ultimately both WL and Mara are only as useful as their party contributions allow them to be. In a 1v1 fight I give Marauder the edge because of the abilities (see above and my record against marauders). In ORvR the long range of fetch dominates, especially in massive battles in the open field. In scenarios I'd say, qualitatively, they're about equal with the win going to the one who works better with his or her party.

I know this post is long, but it's a WL's perspective on his own job and how it compares. I've tried to detach myself emotionally from it and list my views purely from either experience and factual basis. I'd appreciate if a Marauder could do the same although I'll take useful input on the WL class from anyone.

I forgot to add about Throat Bite, it's really good but if we use it before we fetch the target often has enough time to get away from the lion. Also, about half or more (Depending on distance) of the 5 seconds is gone by the time the target even gets to us which severely diminishes its usefulness. Since the target flies faster than the lion runs (even with Speed Training), it takes a few seconds for us to land it on someone if we use it after the fetch which gives time for an AoE root and escape. Also, Throat Bite still only silences my target about half the time I use it. This is very frustrating for obvious reasons.

[LordofWar]

This leads me to my final point in that the play styles of the two jobs are very, very different. WL thrives in a highly maneuverable setting, we move ourselves with pounce and the enemy with fetch. As a result (Especially with pounce) we have a high risk, high rewards playstyle that forces us to be constantly moving. Marauders also move, but they take a very straight forward approach. Unless order is retreating, marauders generally can't reach the mages with their pull. They do, however, load better damage with their higher base damage abilities, lower AP, lack of positionals, and knockdown/stun/snare/etc. Marauders are geared as front line fighters.

This right here sums it up pretty well. As such, the white lion is better equipped for their role as a high maneuverability, high burst damage class rather than the marauders abilities as a front line, consistent damage class.

Its difficult as a marauder when you are told your job is to kill the squishies like the WL and your class truthfully doesn't have the proper abilities to place us in the back lines like the WL. We are much more succeptble to focus firing as a result (as in it happens more frequently) and marauders tend to be the weaker class.

Terrible embrace is easily dodged (like fetch) but unlike fetch, puts the marauder at risk of death due to the short range (65ft). Also, we have no pounce and no significantly higher amount of toughness, wounds or initiative in our gear than a white lion. This puts marauders at a similar point in stats to the WL, and with most of the two classes critical abilities being mirrored, theoretically the WL and marauder should have the same survivability.

This is not true. Marauders do not have the means of really piercing the lines like the WL and abilities like ferocious assault are laughable at attempts to bolster our defenses. As a front line fighter, we are kind of gimped. We get focus fired A LOT in the front lines.

On my marauder, I am specced monstrosity (widely considered to be the only really viable spec in all aspects) and I can safely say any battle against an oppenent who plays properly leaves me out of the picture. I can't get to the back lines to cause any real havoc if the order tanks are doing their job. If I try and go fishing for squishies I am usually punted away or my target is out of range and after that I am nearly out of luck.

Generally this leaves me to flanking with the witch elves, which has varying success. I can usually get around and get into combat long enough to either kill someone at low health or really cause some aoe damage in a short time span before I'm killed by 5+ order.

Honestly, I dont think either class is broken or OP. WL do their job well and I know they have their own issues. Marauders however kind of lack in their job descripiton and tend to just be a damage hose for a short time before death, even with heals.

[Kenyan]

The fact that white lions got so many positionals is because they are not designed to be an offensive character pwning ur backline.



The design concept wherein any dps career, melee OR ranged, 'is not designed to be an offensive character' is a design flaw imo. If this 'defensive' dps class stuff is going to be slopped around, slop it around evenly.

Another design flaw is letting one side have an area or cone knockdown/disable on both mdps careers while the other side gets zero. CJ and OYK make a melee assist train facerollingly easy.

[Dethklok]

Thought I would throw in a couple cents worth of thought. Pounce & Charge makes the WL the speed mdps with some utility, while the marauder is a utility mdps, with some speed.

I was going to do this whole thing on survivability and how an aoe cc monster might be seen as more threatening than a Single target dpser, but I think it's safe to say both classes can excel or take up space. Personally I'm pulling for mythic to remove fetch & te and replace it with a defensive buff appropirate for a L40 skill*.


*this will never ever ever happen :(

[Paranoia]

Ok just a quick few questions as this has really bugged me tonight, please correct me if im wrong..

Maruders have a AOE knockback and AOE Disable whilst we have 0, except for 2 snares one which is a lion ability,

there attacks cost les and are not specific to flank or rear of the attack last longer buffs of by passing armor at a higher rate too,

and they even dare to complain that fetch is OP??

do maruders get a snare aswel?

next bit is my current thoughts on the game:

I love this game and been playing it till release, but i'm starting to not find it fun and more irrating than ever, if its not the population balance thats ruining it for me but now how much better the destro classes have it, the WE V WH, how the BO are damn tough espeicaly the self healing ones when critted!

Forgive me for backseat modding, but this thread should be closed. Heavily moderated remember?

You haven't even ran spell check through it. NO links to WARDB for abilities, no numbers, no real comparisons. All you are doing is whining that they have more than you and thats not fair. Your current thoughts don't belong in class balance forums either.


and they even dare to complain that fetch is OP??
That is completely bias. They can complain about fetch because in a pure Fetch vs Terrible Embrace comparison WL have it better off in some ways.

Perhaps the heavily moderated tag should be removed if posts like this are allowed to litter this forum.

[Zzulu]

The marauder gets incredible CC, utility and survivability and customization options and superb damage.




The white lion gets a 50% healing debuff, but needs to be at the back of an enemy to apply it. It's also at the top of the skilltree.
The marauder gets a natural 25% healing debuff + (not requiring a positional), They can then increase it to 50% with a tactic and it'll heal them as well.




The marauders base attack (flail) deals twice as much damage as the white lions base attack (Hack/sundering chop etc)



The marauder gets a skill which decreases AP regen by 50% on a target for 10 second (IE, more anti healing)
White lion gets no such thing



The marauder gets a spammable AoE attack
The white lion has the same attack but on a 5s CD




The marauder can put a melee damage debuff on a target (whenever they use melee, they damage themselves)
White lion has no such thing





The marauder has a spell damaging debuff that damages the caster whenever they use a spell
the white lion gets no such thing




The marauder can disarm a target, if they parry
the white lion can't




The marauder gets a better execute spell (when a target is below 50%). Deals more damage. And you can get it earlier in the skilltree.




Marauders gets an AoE knockdown
WL's don't. We get a single target stun, and it depends on our pet. We also get it later in the skill tree.




Marauders can increase their str and tougness for 200 for 20seconds every 60seconds
White lions get to deal 90dmg more every 10 seconds if they spend AP on the skill "pack assault"




Marauder can reduce a targets armor by 75% instantly every 10 seconds, making the target vulnerable to everyone in a team.
White lion has to have his pet out and wait for the pet to apply the applications of its armor debuff




Marauder gets a single target build increase spell. No positional requirements
White lion gets the same spell but has to be behind his target, and the damage dealt is in dot form and not instant. Oh and you need a tactic for it or it wont work.




Marauders gets a 40ft cone AoE build increase spell with a tactic
White lions gets no such thing




The marauder gets to increase its damage by 25%
The white lion gets to increase damage done by 25% if they are behind a target.





The white lion gets pounce
Marauder gets no such thing




White lion gets fetch
Marauder gets terrible embrace

The reason why the white lion has so many blanks in contrast to the marauder, is because we get a lot of pretty terrible pet skills and PVE skills. There it is, black on white. It is also because the developers thought the pet would be able to compensate for a lot of our lacking skills, but the pet has been an enormous failing in my eyes.

Now, with this said, I have to still say the WL is an excellent class. I'm not arguing that we're gimped. But a well supported marauder with some intelligence will be able to accomplish a lot more, in just about every department, except mobility.

My suggestion is to remove some of the WL positional requirements and nerf fetch to 100ft, and I'd be a lot more happy. They also need to double the healthpools of our pets.

[Powerranger]

@ Tysis thx for ur input.

Thats the one thing i was beware of.
The bugged pet abilities and the pet still not doing what its supposed too.
They may have in fact such abilities and tactics to lower threat , but imagine how great this could be in PvE later and tbh this game is not ONLY about PvP.

U totally got it right with the frontline attacker.
A well played monstrosity marauder is the nightmare for every MDPS with the right tactic setting.
Hell i might even say its overpowered.
We have 3 very powerful tactics and 2 great abilities.

http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8446
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8445
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8439

Ive tested Crushing Blows and Exhaustive Strikes yesterday on a buddy from the order side.
Both tactics are working as intended.
CB is totally uber if it proccs , nearly the whole rank1 bar is gone.
ES is burning 40ap if i crit while mutated ( im every time mutated ) and is AoE affected.
IW is the best tactic the monstrosity marauder can offer.
This simply makes this ability nearly "insane :P " http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8397

So if a monstrosity marauders is managed to be kept alive he will be a bigger threat then any other class on the destro side.
While from a tactical point of view , this can be countered easy if at least some tanks watch the backline and manage to disable me asap.
If not , then some of them people will nearly loose all their Action points and / or morale + a nasty buildtimeincrease with a timed knockdown utterly destroys whole order grps.

I cant say the same about the WL because ive not played one as i said above but ive gone through some abilities and tactics where i just thought WOW.

The 5sec silence that u mentioned is uber in a combination of the 3sec stun and fetch afterwards.

A WL can totally herass the backline without even being in the near of the backline and be pretty helpful this way.

A WL could push the attack with some WHs at best.
Raising their attack speed and granting them to HTP is one of the badassest support abilities ive seen for an MDPS-class.

I only can buff myself and do nearly nothing for my grp.
I have to be assisted in the frontlines and i NEED a pocket healer.
My only good grp morale2 is http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=633 which every MDPS has.
The others are only good for me and they do not have that big kind of an impact except
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=629 in combination with http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8425.
+
http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8456 i dont have to tell about the impact this morale4 can have on a zerg , i guess its obvious.
However the knockback of it is not controllable , i cant tell u where they will fly nor do some get stunned even if they dont have unstoppable on themselves.

A WL can do the same thing soon if its pet gets fixed and tactics / abilities too.
He will be standing in the back ( like now ) or push their MDPS to crush the enemy line.
As i said the combination of Throat Bite , 3sec stun and fetch allows the WL to keep 3 Destro players on track and they can nearly do nothing against it if the whole order team knows about the strengths and weaknesses about eachother.

Here lies the balance btw.
Im getting an AoE pewpew laserz path.
The WL will have a pewpew singletarget CC pwnage path that can be used from 150ft.

Because were not alone in WAR and classes always synergise with other classes u have to ask urself what u can offer ur grp.

Not ask urself why ur not doing a lot of damage or ur mirror has more powerful abilities then u have.

[Powerranger]

the marauder gets incredible CC

AoE knockdown + single target ability delay (WL's get this as well but needs to be at the back of the enemy sigh) + AoE ability delay? I also hear that the Marauder gets better healing debuffs, and better debuffs in general. Mr.Marauder, go and take a look at the actual skills of the WL before you open your mouth.

When looking at the two classes, it seems that

1: WL gets pounce and fetch

2: Marauder wins in every other department

Pls keep out of discussion if u havent played a marauder or white lion at 40 i strongly demand.

I would be very thankful for that.

[Zzulu]

Read the post above yours

I have a white lion at 40 and I am currently leveling a marauder in T2, soon to enter t3.

Another suggestion; Please structure your posts better.

[Teekay]

Look, Destro train will always be > order one due to:

Aoe stacking melee disorients.

Simple as that. Making instant abilities into 2.5 second ones shuts anyone down and there's nothing anyone can do.

Orders only 1 is a single target rear positional one requiring a tactic.

2Xzealot, bo+chosen+marauder train and we.

3 aoe knockbacks (+ winds of insanity for ultimate protection).

3 aoe knockdowns.

3 stacking disorients.

2 aoe roots.

2 ranged silences and 1 melee one.

3 healing debuffs.

Holy hells, the we is a bonus as it can kill any of the classes by itself.

[Powerranger]

Read the post above yours

I have a white lion at 40 and I am currently leveling a marauder in T2, soon to enter t3.

Another suggestion; Please structure your posts better.

Oh zzulu the whole thing u say is : Marauders got this and that WL dont have it -.-

U neither say something about the playstyle of both or how they can help their grp.

Afaik ur not doing anything else then posting a wishlist.

Ur not discussing. Oh and talking about broken or bugged things taking them into account of balance is weird , even if no-one have it done yet.

Im out of here because in my opinion everything has been said by the rr46WL and there is nothing to discuss furthermore if no-one is bringing new things up.

White lions get a 5sec silence - marauders get none
White lions get a 3sec stun - marauders get none
White lions can buff their grp with HTP - marauders cant
White lions get pounce - marauders dont
White lions got 150ft fetch - marauders 65ft
White lions got higher burst - marauders got less
White lions can be at two places at the same time - marauders only at one

See what i did there ?
Explain WHY a WL SHOULD get ABILITIES that i have?
It is pure nonsense to be honest.

[Ashonic]

Look, Destro train will always be > order one due to:

Aoe stacking melee disorients.

Simple as that. Making instant abilities into 2.5 second ones shuts anyone down and there's nothing anyone can do.

Orders only 1 is a single target rear positional one requiring a tactic.

2Xzealot, bo+chosen+marauder train and we.

3 aoe knockbacks (+ winds of insanity for ultimate protection).

3 aoe knockdowns.


thank god for immunity eh? ;)

and i mean clearly order stand no chance whatsoever.:rolleyes:

we are after all the powers of 'Destruction'. It'd be no good if we couldnt totally destroy you with a single move that we hardly use.

And that Order seems to notice before we do.

3 stacking disorients.

2 aoe roots.

2 ranged silences and 1 melee one.

3 healing debuffs.

Holy hells, the we is a bonus as it can kill any of the classes by itself.[/quote]

[Zzulu]

Oh zzulu the whole thing u say is : Marauders got this and that WL dont have it -.-

U neither say something about the playstyle of both or how they can help their grp.

Afaik ur not doing anything else then posting a wishlist.

Ur not discussing. Oh and talking about broken or bugged things taking them into account of balance is weird , even if no-one have it done yet.

Im out of here because in my opinion everything has been said by the rr46WL and there is nothing to discuss furthermore if no-one is bringing new things up.

White lions get a 5sec silence - marauders get none
White lions get a 3sec stun - marauders get none
White lions can buff their grp with HTP - marauders cant
White lions get pounce - marauders dont
White lions got 150ft fetch - marauders 65ft
White lions got higher burst - marauders got less
White lions can be at two places at the same time - marauders only at one

See what i did there ?
Explain WHY a WL SHOULD get ABILITIES that i have?
It is pure nonsense to be honest.

You can't be serious. You just listed things I already listed and countered. Even then you couldn't find as many perks to the WL could you? As for group utility and general playstyle, the marauder has a plethora of options to utilize that the white lion can only dream of. Most notably the AoE knockdowns, disrupts, morale/ap debuffs and AoE skill setbacks and all those other debuffs I already listed.

They can also customize their playstyle better due to having better tactics and skilltrees. Not to speak of the fact that the directly mirrored skills we both get are in favour with the marauder due to the fact that the WL has to be behind someone to use them.

The best part is that most of those perks you listed rely entirely on our pet. There's a reason so many WL's don't use pets, and that is because the pets are unreliable and only have VERY small healthpools, resulting in the pet dying a lot and all those "perks" you listed being removed from our skill pool until we get a chance to resummon the pet.

As for burst? You have to be kidding me. The only better burst we get is if we have a pet active and we crit, as we have a +50% to critdamage tactic we can opt to use. When it comes to all the other damage, the marauder has us beat, especially due to less positional requirements and base skills dealing more direct damage.

The white lion currently also gets PVE skills, only good for PvE (like threat reduction), and a reliance on a faulty pet. That is why I am doing these comparisons, and they're not nonsense. You're just refusing them for some arbitrary reason.

[poorpeasant]

You can't be serious. You just listed things I already listed and countered. Even then you couldn't find as many perks to the WL could you?

That's what you get for arguing against a kid named 'powerranger'.

The WL was the last class to get into the game pre-release and it shows.

[Powerranger]

You can't be serious. You just listed things I already listed and countered. Even then you couldn't find as many perks to the WL could you? As for group utility and general playstyle, the marauder has a plethora of options to utilize that the white lion can only dream of. Most notably the AoE knockdowns and AoE skill setbacks and all those debuffs I listed. They can also customize their playstyle better due to having better tactics and skilltrees. Not to speak of the fact that the directly mirrored skills we both get are in favour with the marauder due to the fact that the WL has to be behind someone to use them.

The best part is that most of those perks you listed rely entirely on our pet. There's a reason so many WL's don't use pets, and that is because the pets are unreliable and only have VERY small healthpools, resulting in the pet dying a lot and all those "perks" you listed being removed from our skill pool until we get a chance to resummon the pet.

The white lion currently also gets PVE skills, only good for PvE (like threat reduction), and a reliance on a faulty pet. That is why I am doing these comparisons, and they're not nonsense. You're just refusing them for some arbitrary reason.

See u would be just as powerful as a marauder if ur pet would get fixed how he behave.
Thaths why i listed these abilities because thats what making ur class unique and Oh im very limited at what i can do.
Either im AoE
or
Im Singletarget not both nor are my singletarget paths rly good.
The healdebuff u mentioned is only good in a stance that is the weakest one for RvR and not rly used often because
a.It requires a tactic slot
b.It will not debuff the target if it has too many ailings ( kinda broken )
c.The amount u get healed for is the 25% of the already reduced 50%heal
d.The target has to be ailing before the duration will be 10sec instead of 5sec.

There is no real reason to nerf ur fetch nor to buff ur singletargetdamage or give u a cone knockdown / aoe buildtimeincrease.
U have to operate with ur pet and if u cant right now because of broken tactics / abilities then dont blame "balance" blame the ones that made this game and released it too early.

Oh if theyve designed u to be more of a supporter and PvE class , so what ?
Perhaps u have to search for our abilities in other order-classes that u cant find in ur paths.
Let me tell u why.

Mirrors here in WAR not always mirrors.
They are mostly a mix of 2 classes from the opposing realm or sometimes a unique one.
We share some abilities and the way a path is designed to play.
Therefore we are called REALMS and not team BLUE and team RED.

When do people like u start to realise this kind of balance ?

[HeatPhalanx]

Not all of the issues with the White Lion are to do with class balance, but I'll take a crack at this anyway.

As a high-burst maneouverable single-target DPS class, White Lions have role overlap with the WH. Marauders, by contrast, bring something unique to Destruction side to the table - an AoE MDPS class.

In truth, all three of the Marauder's trees are viable, with Brutality being shunned because a Witch Elf does single-target burst better - however the only viable tree for the Brawler melee class eq for Order, the White Lion, is a single-target tree with pointless positionals all over the place.

Path of the Hunter isn't much use as anything but an off-spec for an Axeman main spec (Pounce is viewed as a requirement by WLs and Pack Hunting is much the same), and personally I believe that the contrast between Slashing Blade (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9176) and the completely broken Demolition (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8409) ability, which isn't properly taking its 5 second cooldown and is currently instant, is an imbalance on par with pre 1.06 BW Detonate.

Path of the Guardian is regarded as a one-on-one spec because of the state of the White Lion's pet, which has low HP, tends to drop fast to AoE, doesn't benefit from heals directed at the master (but will benefit from AoE heals directed at his group - compare this to Marauders whose mutation is a direct part of them and as such only one heal target is presented), requires numerous tactics to be viable, which can cause the loss of other vital abilities (Full-Grown (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9214), Speed Training (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9199) if the Lion is being used to Fetch, for example).

This leaves Axeman as the main path, and even then abilities such as Thin The Herd (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9191) are lackluster compared to the equivalents on other classes - not to mention some incredibly whacky design choices (Sundering Chop (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9165) requires you to be at the REAR of your target, but is STILL incredibly weak compared to the likes of Torment (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8085) or even an unmutated Flail (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8392) - while Fey Illusion (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9175) requires you to be at the FRONT of your target to work. It appears the low damage on the White Lion abilities was supposed to be made up for by the pet, but in practice this does not happen - the pet dies too easily, doesn't scale, doesn't do enough damage and can't keep up with Pounce, causing many White Lions to have to waste yet another precious tactic slot on Loner (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9202) to be effective. And let's not even mention the requirement for Tearing Blade (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9204) to make Sundering Chop worth the AP in most situations...

I'd also like to note that White Lions look terrible - bland, uninspired and completely untrue to lore, and I'm very surprised that Games Workshop haven't made Mythic their...pet...over this, because they generally come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who has the audacity to even think about butchering their IP the way Mythic did to the WL. In contrast, Marauders look great. Their attacks look powerful, their armour is great, the faces and hair for Marauders look like actual human beings and underneath that tiny amount of armour they're wearing you can see the ripped muscles. If somebody offered me the chance to be either a Marauder or a WL, I'm afraid I and most other people would be going with the Marauder.

So, in compensation for a useless Hunter tree compared to Monstrosity and a pet-based tree that's only useful in 1v1 due to the problems the pet has (and will degrade with gear because the pet does not scale) and looking like something the cat sicked up, White Lions get Fetch. Fetch is OP. But it doesn't justify the complaints about it for one reason alone - White Lions are like Scotch Mist. I've seen countless Terrible Embraces in Tier 4 because of the popularity of the Marauder, but I can count on my fingers and thumbs the amount of times I've seen a White Lion, let alone a White Lion at 40 who is able to use Fetch. It sucks when it happens to you, but chain-Terrible Embrace is even more lame, especially when you can't stop it by killing the tentacle.

[Phantasm]

I feel warm and fuzzy inside knowing people with common sense such as HeatPhalanx and Zzulu are putting up a solid case for the current state WL's are in.

For the count I agree with everything they have said.

I'll say also that during the long road to r40 the WL's important tactics and skills are rather high rank requirement, our AoE attack slashing blade for example is req rank 30, compared to the Marauders demolition (req 7).

[edit] cleaned it up a little.

[Tysis]

I thought I'd weight back in on the issue.

For all those order players and other WLs out there: WL is the last class that should ever have an AoE disable/knockdown. While I do believe that order has too few of these, there is no place for that discussion in this thread. Instead I'll focus on why the WL doesn't need it. As I mentioned before, WLs thrive on maneuverability. If we had an AoE disable/knockdown it would be very easy to simply hop into the destruction back line and neutralize 3 or 4 casters with a single swing. Everyone realizes that the casters (Both healers and Heavy Ranged DPS [Read sorcs]) are absolutely essential to winning anything more than a cursory encounter. The loss of a group of these, even if only for 2 or 3 seconds would be completely devastating. The single target approach is a sacrifice that we need to make for our mobility. We simply can't have both or people would be bashing WLs like they bash WEs now. And as far as I can tell the only big bone of contention with the WL is fetch and frankly, I'd like to keep it that way.

It's true that WL was the last class announced but it was in closed beta with the rest of the jobs so we can't really use that as a crutch. What we can say is that WL is the least played class in the game (Excepting the new KoTBS and BG which haven't caught up yet). Mythic did release the statistics and it's true. This means that WL, both understandably and unfortunately, will be the most slowly developing class. We need to be patient with it.

As to the fetch + stun (Brutal Pounce) + throat bite, you're right. It's a great combo. The problem, as with many abilities in WAR, is that it requires 10 points minimum in the guardian tree (Usually only used in 1v1 situations) to use. Brutal Pounce is an attack, like Throat Bite, that requires us to act through our lion. While this is obviously unavailable if we're running a Loner setup, it also means that we MUST forfeit either Pounce (Level 5 Hunter), or Cull the Weak (Our finisher attack, Level 9 Axeman) and Thin the Herd (Our 50% healing debuff, Level 13 Axeman). This means that for general use it is simply too impractical to pickup. There are a few other abilities that we'd like to use but can't for the same reason (Mostly Echoing Roar and Whirling Axe). I don't know how the trees are set up for Marauder, but we're just too spread out to pick up things like Stun and keep our maneuverability. We also require at least 1 tactic in order to maximize the potential of many of our abilities.

I'm not trying to whine on behalf of WLs, I've already said that in general I like where we're at, but it is simply unrealistic for WLs to use about half of our good skills. Some of this weakness disappears of course if we team up with friends. Our stun attack works wonderfully if we've got a WH nearby to help cleanup (Some WLs get annoyed when WHs/WPs/etc. prey off our fetch but I'll never turn down a quick kill even if I don't get the credit).

As a side note, you can't Fetch NPCs (Doesn't result in knockdown) which makes it useless in PvE. Goodness knows I've tried.

I still think Fetch is where it needs to be (at least until they've fixed pet AI and pathing). Right now it's threatening but easily evaded.

In regards to the Marauder pull (Terrible Embrace?), I tend to feel that many new marauders are using it in a manner that it's not supposed to be used in. Now I'll admit that I've never played Marauder, but it seems to me that TE, unlike Fetch, is not really meant to initiated combats. TE is short range because it's meant to either catch stragglers (People behind a retreat), idiots (Those stupid tanks who run too close to the destro line... You all know which ones I'm talking about) and people trying to escape a fight that they can't win. TE, in my humble opinion, is for maintaining fights, not starting them. Fetch can be used for both effectively, but chances are pretty good that the lion is going to die on it's way back.

DESTRO PAY ATTENTION: Always kill the lion, even after the fetch. If you do, we're effectively junk Marauders. We can't silence you, we can't stun you and it's likely that at least 1 or 2 of our tactics are also rendered useless. The Lion is an ~3200 HP paper bag running around. It has minimum resistances and minimum armor (Read: You do max damage against it). I have had my lion 1-shotted, most often by Sorcs. Hurricanex on Volkmar has done it to me with Gloomburst so look at his gear if you need mininum Int or whatever you guys use. If our lion manages to run through your line twice (Once to fetch and once to get back), then you guys deserve to get fetched again. I've already listed all the ways to stop fetch in my previous post, but I'll summarize again. Tanks do your job, protect your mages.

Both Marauder and WL have Charge so that's a non-issue.

I forgot to mention that Pounce is also glitched. It's supposed to do an AoE attack when we land but it only goes off if the person we're pouncing at hasn't moved since we started pouncing (We pounce to the spot, not the person so you could very well be out of range by the time we get there). I disagree with the WL that said we should pounce to the person. Pounce should not be a heat-seeking missile that always gets us where we need to be. It needs to be used intelligently, not as a silver bullet for getting us into/out of combat. You should be able to plan better than that. That being said... I still the the AoE attack should go off where we land (It's worded as such).

Marauders are most devastating when you team up with a tank or WE. With the tank he can help protect you (Guard/Challenge/etc.) and lessen the damage you take, WEs are more weakly armored and therefore targeted before you. Fortunately, most marauders that I've encountered don't do this. They just charge in swinging and from what I've read they seem surprised when they die. Yes I've said that Marauders are front line fighters... I did not say they were in the first wave. The Marauder's position in combat needs to strike a delicate balance between damage and safety. You cannot overcome your medium armor and low initiative/toughness with mobility like WLs can. Don't try... you'll die. WLs have our own challenges, but if you try to do charge through enemy lines like we do then don't bother showing up. WLs difficulty comes with balancing our lower damage/fewer abilities with high mobility. We need to precision place our strikes. Marauders don't have that drawback, you can afford to focus on a target and tag-team it dead (This is where Marauders rock!) You're CC is crushing not only to the person you're fighting, but also anybody who comes to try and help them out. If a WL misses a jump we get swarmed by destro and die a grisly, and rapid, death. Whereas we rely on reinforcements not arriving in time, a well positioned Marauder can render them irrelevant for a second or two (Which makes all the difference). Whereas WLs are reavers of the backline and flanks, Marauders should pick their battles on the front lines moving to assist any fellow destro who need you.

Trust me, we're much more scared of WEs, Sorcs and Chaotic Rift Magi than we are of you. We'll target them when we can. I know Marauders often feel like they're order's prime target, but at least on my server you guys are only targets of opportunity (Unless you're inside our line). Use that to your advantage on the front.

[Sinik]

Funny how you fail to mention pounce with no cooldown. Free kills from every range class in existence isn't enough for ya?

[poorpeasant]

Pounce is highly overrated. It can't catch a moving target, has a travel time, and fails if there's even the slightest elevation. Ironically it's better as an escape tool than a catch-up tool.

[Arrelaine]

Even still, could you imagine how OP it would be if you all had AoE, an aoe knockdown and pounce? You could pounce right to the healer line and just annihilate it. I know I've had it more than once I'd be fighting off a couple IBs and a WH, trying to just get away, that a lion gets up behind me and BAM! fetches me. It may be easy to spot, but when you're trying to fight a class you can't give your back to, it's easy to sneak up on someone.

[leverus]

Will try to be short and objective.

What I see mentioned in this discussion is the way that white lions are limited in their skill choices (through career trees), but the overall feeling of the thread points that marauders can have aoe kd, aoe dot, 75% armor debuff, aoe build time increase etc.. which is- how do you say- 'poppycock'.

Tysis did a great job describing the pros&cons of a white lion's skill choices, I would love to do the same for marauders , but I really find it pointless to argue on forums.

Zzulu - your post (the long one) is a very smartly presented opinion with not all facts straight (for one - Demolition (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8409) is on 5s cooldown too) - just like the media ;)
Also, you can't 'counter' a point of view. :D

[kechop]

Pounce is highly overrated. It can't catch a moving target, has a travel time, and fails if there's even the slightest elevation. Ironically it's better as an escape tool than a catch-up tool.

AoE KD is highly overrated.
It gives 5 enemies for example 18sec godomde against CC.
Oh yeah its so overpowered ...
and mine lasts 1.5sec while sometimes not even KD an enemy.

[amobius]

Will try to be short and objective.

What I see mentioned in this discussion is the way that white lions are limited in their skill choices (through career trees), but the overall feeling of the thread points that marauders can have aoe kd, aoe dot, 75% armor debuff, aoe build time increase etc.. which is- how do you say- 'poppycock'.

Tysis did a great job describing the pros&cons of a white lion's skill choices, I would love to do the same for marauders , but I really find it pointless to argue on forums.

Zzulu - your post (the long one) is a very smartly presented opinion with not all facts straight (for one - Demolition (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8409) is on 5s cooldown too) - just like the media ;)
Also, you can't 'counter' a point of view. :D


In about an hour you could get a marauder to lvl 7 and test demolition. Even though it says it has a 5 second cooldown it definitely is not working because it is spammable with no CD.

[Striken]

WL has more manueverability, fine. We even have the potential to pump out better single target DPS, great. Plus, Fetch can be wikid kewl (if Dest has epic fail and doesn't kill the lion).

Unfortunately, in the games current state, CC (especially AoE) >>>> Everything else. Anyone who has gotten to T2 should know that after being disarmed or disoriented long enough to die without using an ability.

Until Mythic fixes the CC mess that they have created, Marauders will be more powerful then WL in a majority of situations. Not every fight is in a wide open field after all.

Saying that WL would be even more overpowered with AoE CC + their manueverability is NOT a reason that it's ok to leave Marauders in the superior position they are in now. They either both need rediculous CC abilities, or neither of them do. THEN they can work on balancing the other stuff (like all the low damage + high AP abilities the WL has).

[kechop]

Okay i said it once , i say it twice.

There are no obvious mirrors in war and they always got different playstyles.
Also u chose a PET class , PET classes are always a bit different to play as a non-pet-class.
U dont deserve more viability than u have right now.
Fixing ur broken stuff of course.
Mine too pls.
Nerf disorients who cares whatever.
Nerf KDs affecting less people who cares.
Dont buff WL , fix them.

Thats how i see this "issue".

[Arrelaine]

Saying that WL would be even more overpowered with AoE CC + their manueverability is NOT a reason that it's ok to leave Marauders in the superior position they are in now. They either both need rediculous CC abilities, or neither of them do. THEN they can work on balancing the other stuff (like all the low damage + high AP abilities the WL has).

I never said that WLs don't need a buff, or brought up to how good the marauder is. WLs just should not get an AoE tree. I don't think that any class should have rediculous CC, because I don't think people should lose control of their character for up to 15s because of no immunity buff. I think there definitely needs to be one for all classes, or tone down some classes' CC abilities.

[Leanthral]

Ok just a quick few questions as this has really bugged me tonight, please correct me if im wrong..

Maruders have a AOE knockback and AOE Disable whilst we have 0, except for 2 snares one which is a lion ability,

there attacks cost les and are not specific to flank or rear of the attack last longer buffs of by passing armor at a higher rate too,

and they even dare to complain that fetch is OP??

do maruders get a snare aswel?

next bit is my current thoughts on the game:

I love this game and been playing it till release, but i'm starting to not find it fun and more irrating than ever, if its not the population balance thats ruining it for me but now how much better the destro classes have it, the WE V WH, how the BO are damn tough espeicaly the self healing ones when critted!

Marauders only knockback is the rank 4 morale ability that u have to spec for. We don't have an AOE disable. The rank 4 morale (the knock back one) will stun the player for 7 seconds if they are not immune to any cc from other people. Yes marauders get a snare. every class has some sort of form of a snare i believe.

Anyways, being a marauder myself, i can say that our class is fairly well balanced... the only thing killing the game for melee dps is really all the CC in the game and i get squished fairly fast from just aoe's... But other than that a marauder is a fairly well balanced class...

Now, WL's aren't as bad as people think... they just don't know how to play them... They are one of the most annoying classes with fetch, and that jumping thing where u can jump all over the place like crazy!!!! and really.. one on one, u do some pretty insane quick damage... i don't know if there's an aoe spec for wl's or not.. but really, u have to think about the tools u have and how to get the most of them.. i've seen a fairly good amount of good white lions that know how to play their class and annoy the $#^% out of us with their leaping thing.. it's one of the most annoying things because as a marauder, we can't pull u when u jump when we are about to pull u, and it uses our CD.

Anyways, i don't think there's a big problem, i'm seeing more and more WL's these days, and i think that was part of the problem. There were only so fer white lions so they were always alone as a melee dps with the WH. When there's more WL's, they will defintetly be much more noticeable than before. If u look at marauders, they are among the top 3 most played with sorc and chosen i believe... So u see a lot of them, and of course ur going to hear a lot about them and begin to compare things...

that's ma 2 cents

Cheers

[Seto]

I saw some guy listing up many abilites that marauder has that WL dont.

I`m not gonna start listing up abilites WL has that mara dont, its just that it seemed to me that this person arent aware of how marauder works.

Basically, we have 3 different mutations, and skills he mentioned are distributed among those 3 mutations. Changing mutation triggers global cooldown, and there is also a 5 second cooldown before we can change mutation again.

Many of the abilites he listed that marauder has, regardless of wether we have to specc very high into masteries to get them or not, are only usable with the spesific mutations.

The guy who posted that seemed to believe that we had all those abilites readily available. This is not the case.


He also complained that some abilites that were similar did less damage for the WL. Did he calculate in the extra damage WL gets from lion attacks? I doubt it.

Gah! Every time I read anything about the difference between marauders and WL, people conveniently ignore WL pet damage and the fact that most marauder abilites require different mutations! -_-

It really is a bit annoying when people only look at the abilities themselves, and ignore where in the mastery paths things are and how the mechanic works.

Balance issues posted in this thread isnt gonna help developers if people base their arguments on misinformation and lack of understanding. I am fairly certain mythic employees dont want to spend their time filtering out the few good bits of reasonable concerns and balance suggestions from the vast sea of misconceptions and ignorance.

[Nataenelas]

AoE KD is highly overrated.
It gives 5 enemies for example 18sec godomde against CC.
Oh yeah its so overpowered ...
and mine lasts 1.5sec while sometimes not even KD an enemy.

It is certainly not overrated.

From my experience, what usually happens is a Mara runs in and pops his AOE KD and right behind him a wave of Destro comes in and all hell breaks loose. I find a lot of the time immediately after getting back up, I am greeted with "You are disarmed. You are disabled. You are dead."

Not to mention that being knocked down disrupts any casts people are preparing to make regardless of if it's 7 seconds or .1 second. And everyone is still right where they were incapacitated - which means they are still in melee range for all the Black Orcs, Chosen, Witch Elves and DoK's that just flooded the engagement.

Please don't come here with AoE anything is useless, either. In an RvR game with Keep seiges or widespread battle of any type AoE is king. If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

[Sardus]

I saw some guy listing up many abilites that marauder has that WL dont.

I`m not gonna start listing up abilites WL has that mara dont, its just that it seemed to me that this person arent aware of how marauder works.

Basically, we have 3 different mutations, and skills he mentioned are distributed among those 3 mutations. Changing mutation triggers global cooldown, and there is also a 5 second cooldown before we can change mutation again.

Many of the abilites he listed that marauder has, regardless of wether we have to specc very high into masteries to get them or not, are only usable with the spesific mutations.

The guy who posted that seemed to believe that we had all those abilites readily available. This is not the case.


He also complained that some abilites that were similar did less damage for the WL. Did he calculate in the extra damage WL gets from lion attacks? I doubt it.

Gah! Every time I read anything about the difference between marauders and WL, people conveniently ignore WL pet damage and the fact that most marauder abilites require different mutations! -_-

It really is a bit annoying when people only look at the abilities themselves, and ignore where in the mastery paths things are and how the mechanic works.

Balance issues posted in this thread isnt gonna help developers if people base their arguments on misinformation and lack of understanding. I am fairly certain mythic employees dont want to spend their time filtering out the few good bits of reasonable concerns and balance suggestions from the vast sea of misconceptions and ignorance.

That was me I think.

Short Version:
Take a look at your skill trees. Look at the utility of your tactics and abilities. Then look at our skill trees. We don't have much utility, do we? Everything we get either lowers aggro, increases damage, or flat out doesn't work. We really need stuff that helps us debuff enemies so we can break through their heal spam/defenses. Raw DPS doesn't make automatically make us a good PVP class. Although i'm not complaining about PVE. We tear it up in dungeons.

Long Version:
Yes I agree that you have to change stances to use your abilities. Look, my only real concern is the uselessness utility of some of our skills (besides fetch and pounce) and the fact that we have useless tactics.

We have two tree tactics that reduce aggro. These are useless for pvp. Could they at least put in some sort of pvp use?

Our pet is 25% of our damage and yet he doesn't scale with our stats.. and is pretty easy to taunt and kill. Our pet tree is a waste of time. Our lion doesn't get wards or resists, and has about 2,000 hitpoints. Yes he is very important to our DPS, but we're stuck using the axeman tree because it is the only one that will give him some defenses. The pet tree allows him to hit really hard, but he goes down so quickly it's just sad.

We have no way or reducing AP or moral like you guys can. We can't remove enchantments. This is a big deal for taking down healers.

And most importantly, mauraders can lower incoming heals by 50% and get healed for half of that (25% and without the heal for no spec) where we can lower outgoing heals by 50% (and have to spec it). You can use your ability on anyone and be effective, whereas our's only works on healers and the healers just cleanse it anyway.

I totally admit that the white lion has DISGUSTING raw DPS, but
Order is having a really hard time focus firing down destro right now because we lack abilities that allow us lower incoming heals and to disrupt them from healing in the first place. I am aware that the witch hunter has an ability very similar to your own, but it's in a tree they never use. Another problem for another thread.

As a white lion when im out there beating on someone with my friends.... if destro focus heals we have nothing to combat that. I've seen all the dps in my scenario focus fire one witch elf or disciple to no avail. All we can do is silence, but that doesn't slow down incoming heals.

Time and time again destro is able to focus fire down our guys effectively with mauraders, witch elves, and all their other melee by bum rushing us with AOE disables and knockdowns. I spend more time sitting on my butt, looking up at the clouds, or trying to find my axe on the ground than actually...you know.... doing my job. And during all of this I have all of the destro melee beating on me and the other witch hunters/white lions. It's really starting to get old.

[Kriesha]

I think you are comparing wrong classes. WL and Marauder, imho, were never intended as mirrors. While there is some similarity and skill overlapping between them, the same is true for a lot of non-mirror classes (hey, WL and SH have a lot of common skills, for example).

I believe the mirrors of both WL and Marauder were never put to live servers. Marauders mirror should have been the Hammerer (Knockdowns and CC) whereas the WLs mirror was supposed to be the Choppa (Monster DPS).

[kayeffem]

Funny how you fail to mention pounce with no cooldown. Free kills from every range class in existence isn't enough for ya?

Please explain how a 262 aoe dmg ability is a free kill.

Pounce is highly overrated. It can't catch a moving target, has a travel time, and fails if there's even the slightest elevation. Ironically it's better as an escape tool than a catch-up tool.

You can only pounce to an enemy so it's not good for escape either.

I'm currently working on leveling up a marauder. So far what I've seen the marauder is a lot better at lower tiers (pvp and pve) than the white lion is. I've not yet run into any problems with switching mutations which are very similar to the pet training the white lion uses. Once I get the marauder to 40 I'll be better able to compare the two classes and provide a better perspective on what each class is good/bad at.

[Tysis]

Comments:

Pounce is great for escaping. Any WL who doesn't use it that way needs to add it to their repertoire.

In general WLs need to stop comparing ourselves directly to Marauders, we're more accurately a mix of Marauder/Squig Herder. WLs who don't acknowledge the existance of the pet have defeated their entire argument before they start.

WLs do not need buffed. Sorry guys, but we're pretty darn good as is. Just fix our glitches and I'll be happy.

Pounce rarely equals kill, the AoE damage from it is very small and only goes off if you're not moving.

Marauders need to stop trying to downplay how good their knockdown/disable abilities are. You're not going to convince us. Instead focus on how they develop the function of the Marauder, why you should have them, and why we shouldn't.

I've noticed that most of this debate has centered on the Marauder abilities that WLs don't have, not the WL abilities that marauders don't have... While obvious, this means that we're talking about buffing the WL (see my above comment) or nerfing the Mara.

I watched a WL (40) today single-handedly kill a Marauder (40), a Zealot (38), and a Sorc (36) at the same time... the 3 destro were guildies. That particular WL is a beast on our server and he surprised them, but come one people. Knockdown and disable attacks would just make us stupid.

[Seto]

That was me I think.

We have no way or reducing AP or moral like you guys can. We can't remove enchantments. This is a big deal for taking down healers.

And most importantly, mauraders can lower incoming heals by 50% and get healed for half of that (25% and without the heal for no spec) where we can lower outgoing heals by 50% (and have to spec it). You can use your ability on anyone and be effective, whereas our's only works on healers and the healers just cleanse it anyway.

I totally admit that the white lion has DISGUSTING raw DPS, but
Order is having a really hard time focus firing down destro right now because we lack abilities that allow us lower incoming heals and to disrupt them from healing in the first place. I am aware that the witch hunter has an ability very similar to your own, but it's in a tree they never use. Another problem for another thread.

Well you said it yourself, you have disgusting raw dps, and probably the best mobility in the game. And even though you say you understand how the mutation system work, I`m not sure I believe you. Marauders cant stance-dance to use all the different abilites from different mutations, because there is a 5 second cooldown on mutation changing. Also, we have to set up tactics spesifically for 1 mutation at a time to be effective.

Yes, you have different training things to set for your lion. But your abilites arent limited by which training you select are they?

You base a lot of what you say on things marauders CAN spec for, regardless of if the different abilites are mutually exclusive because of mastery path spec.

Thats fine. But if you`re gonna do that, then when you complain about things WL CANT do, you shouldnt ignore abilites that you have in the mastery path just because you dont spec for them.

Spesifically, you`re saying that you cannot disrupt heals in the first place. Which is completely wrong, considering that you do have the possibility to spec for both stuns and interrupts in your mastery paths. Brutal Pounce and Echoing Roar.

Why would you ignore those? Most likely because you wouldn consider speccing for them. Its the same thing with Marauder, we have several different things we can spec for, but usually they mutually exclude eachother since they are limited to their spesific mutations.

When I fight someone, I cant change into 1 mutation for 1 ability, then go to the next mutation for the next over and over, there is no time for that because of global cooldown and the 5 second cooldown between mutations.

[kechop]

It is certainly not overrated.

From my experience, what usually happens is a Mara runs in and pops his AOE KD and right behind him a wave of Destro comes in and all hell breaks loose. I find a lot of the time immediately after getting back up, I am greeted with "You are disarmed. You are disabled. You are dead."

Not to mention that being knocked down disrupts any casts people are preparing to make regardless of if it's 7 seconds or .1 second. And everyone is still right where they were incapacitated - which means they are still in melee range for all the Black Orcs, Chosen, Witch Elves and DoK's that just flooded the engagement.

Please don't come here with AoE anything is useless, either. In an RvR game with Keep seiges or widespread battle of any type AoE is king. If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

Right because after a KD u dont get Unstoppable which is making u IMMUNE against disarms , silence , knockdown , stun -.-

If u get steamrolled by a WALL of destro as u mentioned above after a 1.5sec CD , maybe u shouldnt blame "balance" but ur team for letting these cute marauders get so near when their pewpew-awesometastic-super-knockbacks were ready.

Maybe sometimes unstoppable is bugged and u still get KD whatever , thats still not a WL vs Marauder "issue".

Of course AoE is the "king" of STAIRS.
Not the king of RvR-battles -.-

[Zzulu]

Why would you ignore those?
Well brutal pounce requires out pet to be alive and at the targets side. Usually, if you spec for brutal pounce you'll also need to sacrifice several tactics to make the lion worthwile, and in doing so you gimp yourself in the process, especially considering how bad the tree is and the tactics for it.

As for the second AoE dot, it's only 15ft, and is horrible for doing any sort of AoE damage. If you're attacking only one person with it you might as well use another attack instead.

[OPWEE]

U have to operate with ur pet and if u cant right now because of broken tactics / abilities then dont blame "balance" blame the ones that made this game and released it too early.

translation: hey if things are imbalanced and broken compared to your mirror you can't say things are imbalanced. Whats next?

Oh if theyve designed u to be more of a supporter and PvE class , so what ?

because its is a PVP game.


When do people like u start to realise this kind of balance ?

when its actually true!

[OPWEE]

He also complained that some abilites that were similar did less damage for the WL. Did he calculate in the extra damage WL gets from lion attacks? I doubt it.


pet adds ~10% to a max of ~20% DPS depending on spec. Considering that the Mara has an advantage on skill damage upwards of 100% and that the pet dies insanely easy, is annoying to manage (and still does absolutely stupid things) and take a reasonable time to cast, disappears when mounted and has to be re-summoned....

Basically, at lvl 11, 21, 31 the pet is decent, after that its more an annoyance in its current state. And it certainly doesn't scale up like PCs do. At a minimum they need the whitelion to get all the stats of its owner, including strength, toughness, and wounds, or they need to buff up the damage of the WL itself to be comparable with the mara skill damage.

[OPWEE]

Right because after a KD u dont get Unstoppable which is making u IMMUNE against disarms , silence , knockdown , stun -.-

oh, you're talking about that buff called kinda-sometimes-maybe-but-not-really-Unstoppable. Hey maybe if it worked worth a damn it might be worth commenting on! Even outside of keep/fort sieges, unstoppable is unreliable at best.


Of course AoE is the "king" of STAIRS.
Not the king of RvR-battles -.-

considering the focus of the game, the Stairs ARE the RvR battle. Everything else is just mental masturbation, doors are undefendable and we all know that unless you have a significant overwhelming force or are playing against idiots.

[Sardus]

Well you said it yourself, you have disgusting raw dps, and probably the best mobility in the game. And even though you say you understand how the mutation system work, I`m not sure I believe you. Marauders cant stance-dance to use all the different abilites from different mutations, because there is a 5 second cooldown on mutation changing. Also, we have to set up tactics spesifically for 1 mutation at a time to be effective.

Yes, you have different training things to set for your lion. But your abilites arent limited by which training you select are they?

You base a lot of what you say on things marauders CAN spec for, regardless of if the different abilites are mutually exclusive because of mastery path spec.

Thats fine. But if you`re gonna do that, then when you complain about things WL CANT do, you shouldnt ignore abilites that you have in the mastery path just because you dont spec for them.

Spesifically, you`re saying that you cannot disrupt heals in the first place. Which is completely wrong, considering that you do have the possibility to spec for both stuns and interrupts in your mastery paths. Brutal Pounce (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9193) and Echoing Roar (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9187).

Why would you ignore those? Most likely because you wouldn consider speccing for them. Its the same thing with Marauder, we have several different things we can spec for, but usually they mutually exclude eachother since they are limited to their spesific mutations.

When I fight someone, I cant change into 1 mutation for 1 ability, then go to the next mutation for the next over and over, there is no time for that because of global cooldown and the 5 second cooldown between mutations.

What I'm trying to get across is that there is a ton of stuff for our trees that the Devs never got around to polishnig (we were the last class to be done). Many of our abilities just flat out suck or simply don't work. Our pet has no resists and no survivabilty in the pet tree. And he is only marginally survivable in the axeman tree.

What ticks me off is that they never got around to finishing a lot of our abilities. If you look at the patch notes since release, we're not mentioned that often, and yet we're probably one of the buggiest ones out there. Just about every abilitiy/tactic that we get there is a mirror out there somewhere in destro that does the same thing plus a little more. Mostly the witch elf and maurader. I don't think it's because they wanted it to be that way, but because they never got around to putting our things in.

Here are some examples:

We have two tactics that reduce aggro. They do nothing in PVP.
We have a pretty cool pet tree that we can't use because our pet dies in a few hits due to no resists.
We have numerous tactics that just don't work. Period. Release was months ago?
We have numerous tactics that have never been tweaked/scaled properly. A 25% on hit tactic to do 150 damage over 5 seconds at level 40?
Knowndowns, disables, and stuns still seem to chain/stack. Considering that most destro have some sort of KD, disable, stun, or disarm, we're more often than not unable to attack.

People complain about our fetch.. and i know it is AWESOME... but without that skill, I'm not sure what use we are.

[kechop]

translation: hey if things are imbalanced and broken compared to your mirror you can't say things are imbalanced. Whats next?



because its is a PVP game.



when its actually true!

nope its not a PVP game , it is realm vs realm and endgame is PVE so its part of the game and part of ur classdesign.
Oh we got imbalanced and broken things too so im not commenting on this one.
Both classes got totally different playstyles and share some abilities.
This wont make them to real mirrors at all.

Ive to admit that a marauder is more powerful then a WL but why ?
Simple as that , broken pet is broken.

[Thason]

Im all for buffing the lion itself.

But please dont give the lion 100% of the masters stats, thats WAY op.

1. Fairer, would be to give the lion the same % of the masters stats, as % of the masters DPS it occupies at the time. (depending on spec/tactics etc)

2. Fix the broken skills/pet pathing.

3. Make a reason to take the tactics for threat reduction in PvP
(maybe make the tactics 'The master will do % more damage to his pets target. - against players. 'The WL will cause % less hate in monsters' for pve.)

Id really like to hear some WL feedback on these ideas, mainly 1 and 3, as I dont think theyve been thought of before.

[Sardus]

Im all for buffing the lion itself.

But please dont give the lion 100% of the masters stats, thats WAY op.

1. Fairer, would be to give the lion the same % of the masters stats, as % of the masters DPS it occupies at the time. (depending on spec/tactics etc)

2. Fix the broken skills/pet pathing.

3. Make a reason to take the tactics for threat reduction in PvP
(maybe make the tactics 'The master will do % more damage to his pets target. - against players. 'The WL will cause % less hate in monsters' for pve.)

Id really like to hear some WL feedback on these ideas, mainly 1 and 3, as I dont think theyve been thought of before.

I think that's pretty fair. We don't need more DPS, but we need more utility. That's the only suggestion i have for #3

[poorpeasant]

WLs need AOE disables and disorients. The devs can nerf fetch but probably won't because it's too hard/time consuming for them to code in range limits for the pets abilities, and as we know their 'fixes' are lazy at best.

[CrazedPyro]

so u guys want a 2hander aoe class or "aoe tree"? that would essentially double all the mars abilities. That makes complete sense. As a mar i tend to fear the good wl 1v1, and generally my goal is to simply piss them off and keep them away from my healers.

but seriously...a 2h aoe would be so godly. for instance, my one arm crits for 6-700 dmg at the most usually, now picture that for a 2h weap...yea, that would be pretty freaking sweet since ur aoes would do like 1000dmg

[Sardus]

We already have an AOE cone swipe with our axe and a channel spinning AOE.

[poorpeasant]

WLs AOE tree is mediocre at best in terms of damage and CC, while the Mara's AOE tree is considered their best. Their AOE tree is so good, they complain about their single target tree not doing enough of a damage increase, even though both trees blow WL out of the water.

[pirouni]

WLs AOE tree is mediocre at best in terms of damage and CC, while the Mara's AOE tree is considered their best. Their AOE tree is so good, they complain about their single target tree not doing enough of a damage increase, even though both trees blow WL out of the water.

marauder is only good for demolition
each time my marauder tries to spec a bit differently and try to hit 1 target or 1v1, its a failure
marauders do so little damage with flail, they are so funny...
they only scare when there are 3-4 with demo

[Darkpheonix]

so u guys want a 2hander aoe class or "aoe tree"? that would essentially double all the mars abilities. That makes complete sense. As a mar i tend to fear the good wl 1v1, and generally my goal is to simply piss them off and keep them away from my healers.

but seriously...a 2h aoe would be so godly. for instance, my one arm crits for 6-700 dmg at the most usually, now picture that for a 2h weap...yea, that would be pretty freaking sweet since ur aoes would do like 1000dmg

The thing is your assuming there actually is a higher damage. Right now though even with a two hander you don't get crits that high. From what I have seen the general area of a crit falls within the 800 range but rarely ever breaking 1k.

[Seto]

Dunno if anyone else have noticed this yet, they probably have but still here goes.

When I get pulled by a WL, they immediatly stun me when I reach them.

When I pull an enemy, I try to stun them immediatly but they are immune.

When I was confounded by this, a guildmate told me its because pet abilites doesnt cause immunities.

Just another thing that makes the WL punt superior to TE.

[poorpeasant]

That's not possible. Brutal Pounce is in guardian spec (worst spec in the game) and tied to the pet. It can't magically teleport back from where it just pulled you to stun you. In addition, Fetch is affected by and grants knockback immunity, not disable immunity. They are two different immunities.

It's actually impossible for a WL to do the same cheap 'Embrace+Jolt' stun that Marauders are capable of.

[Seto]

That's not possible. Brutal Pounce is in guardian spec (worst spec in the game) and tied to the pet. It can't magically teleport back from where it just pulled you to stun you. In addition, Fetch is affected by and grants knockback immunity, not disable immunity. They are two different immunities.

It's actually impossible for a WL to do the same cheap 'Embrace+Jolt' stun that Marauders are capable of.

Um. My entire point was that EVERY GOD DAMN TIME I TRY TO PULL AN ENEMY they are ALWAYS immune to stun when they reach me. And if you look at the enemy buffs, you`ll also see the green little icon that says "this target is immune to disabling etc etc"

And again, I`ve noticed so many, many times that when I get pulled by a WL into the order zerg, I ALWAYS get disabled. And yes, its the kind of disable that makes me unable to move or take actions. It doesnt matter if the WL has a knockdown or not, the point is that I SHOULD be immune to any knockdowns when I get punted by the lion, but thats not the case.

Edit: I`d also like to add, that the range on WL fetch is way, way WAY too far. The only thing they risk when they fetch someone is the time it takes to resummon the lion, safely hidden as they are in the middle of the order zerg. A marauder risks his life every bloody time he tries to pull even the closest order.

[Efertin]

Unless Terrible Embrace stuns by itself, then someone else has CC'd the target you've pulled.

Knockbacks are on their own immunity timer (does TE trigger it?), as are knockdowns/disarms/silences/stuns and roots are on their own timer too.

[Darkpheonix]

Its not fetch or the white lion its something else. I personally have never seen the immunity not applied to my target. Though what I have noticed is that there are certain seperations in what you become immune to. The thing would be to find out what is hitting you, but its nothing from the white lion.

Also as far as fetch train your tanks to taunt. Really thats what it comes down to. Any group I run into with a half smart tank I am almost never going to be able to pull off a fetch unless its on him or he is dead.

[Tysis]

Here's another little quirk... Classes that can knock themselves back as an escape mechanism also trigger the Knockback immunity.

Also, Knockback immunity =/= Stun Immunity. If you're TE is triggering Stun Immunity then you've got a problem with TE, not Fetch.

I still haven't heard a good argument for why we WLs need any AoE knockbacks/stuns/etc. People are just using the "The marauder has it!" excuse and frankly that's deplorable... Unless you think Marauders should have a little chaos pet, wield 2-handed axes and ride white horses just because we do! It sounds like childish whining and people on both sides need to start making formulated arguments otherwise please don't bother posting.

Edit: Fetch is not a punt. Punts move people away from you, Fetch moves people towards us. It's much more accurate to call TE the "Marauder Fetch" than it is to call Fetch the "White Lion Punt."

[LeoricMonolith]

Here's another little quirk... Classes that can knock themselves back as an escape mechanism also trigger the Knockback immunity.

Also, Knockback immunity =/= Stun Immunity. If you're TE is triggering Stun Immunity then you've got a problem with TE, not Fetch.

I still haven't heard a good argument for why we WLs need any AoE knockbacks/stuns/etc. People are just using the "The marauder has it!" excuse and frankly that's deplorable... Unless you think Marauders should have a little chaos pet, wield 2-handed axes and ride white horses just because we do! It sounds like childish whining and people on both sides need to start making formulated arguments otherwise please don't bother posting.

Edit: Fetch is not a punt. Punts move people away from you, Fetch moves people towards us. It's much more accurate to call TE the "Marauder Fetch" than it is to call Fetch the "White Lion Punt."

The argument for giving the white lion similar abilities is a bit nuanced, I'll try to explain. The white lion class as it is is a fetcher or a hit and run dps class with poor survivability. Most marauders on the other hand are front liners who add dps and utility to a destro front line consisting mostly of tanks. A destro front line is thus bolstered by including marauders, they can wreck the order front lines with aoe disorients and their aoe knockdown. This is not only offensive but defensive, by allowing the marauder to slow melee focus fire and continue dps. If a marauder is getting focus fired, he can hit his aoe cc abilities and keep pumping out the damage, a white lion can hit detaunt and pray.

So which class do you feel is more useful in most situations? Order's front line is already weaker than destro's due to the tank imbalance, so marauders in combination with a destro front line can easily dominate the order front line and get to our squishies, whereas the white lion brings none of that to the table, yeah we can dps a healer or something, but why not use a witch hunter? Really the only reason I can fathom to bring a white lion to orvr is because of fetch. Do you really think we as a melee dps class should be relegated to more of an rdps role?

I personally think we need to be brought more in line with the marauder, that means a fetch nerf, possibly a pounce nerf, but more aoe utility, and a better defined guardian tree. Take out our pve talents and give us something akin to the marauder's first tier talents. Fetch being what it is is probably our biggest hinderance to getting our pet fixed, right now it dies so easily it borders on useless, and the fact that it can't catch anyone is a pain. Do you find it odd that most people who play our pet class choose to forgoe the pet? Our abilities are also rather bland when compared to other classes. The class also needs a major image overhaul, we really look terrible.

To sum all this up, I think the reason we need to be more like the marauder class is because it will allow order front lines to more readily compete with destro, and it will put us back into melee instead of being an rdps class with a 5 ft range. I'd like to point out that I perform fine in small scale engagements, 12 on 12 scenarios and such, but in mass open field rvr between multiple warbands I become a fetch bot or I eat dirt rapidly because we have nothing to slow or stop focus fire like the marauder does. We might be able to pounce out of a focus fire situation but then there's a large hole in our lines where we should have been, and that's not desirable from a team perspective.

[onkelsatan]

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-- WARNING: Wall of text --
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Okey, so I just went through the hole post and seen alot of good things but also things that are plain out stupid. Normally I dont post on borads like this ( I just read em ) but it seem like a fairly sober thread and I would actually like to share me view on this subject. And if im lucky, a mythic develepor just might see it aswell :)
I don't have that much to say about the White lion, though i will comment on some of their abillities. The main focus is going to be about marauder since that is what I know most about.

Before going on I would like introduced my self. Im playing a r40rr36 Marauder on Karak Eight Peaks. Past mmorpg experience 2000-2004 daoc, 04-07 WoW and now WAR.

MIRROR CALSSES:
Marauders have an awesom AOE spec, apparently WL don't but as it has been mentioned earlier on, when talking warhammeronline, the definition of 'mirror' does not mean identicly. Mara & WL (and all other mirror classes/pairs ) have many abillities incommen but roughly 1/3 of the abilities are shifted to a third class. This is also exactly how Mythic did it with Dark Age of Camelot, which btw worked really well because all realms (there were three in daoc) had 'almost' the same abilities just spread out differently on the classes. Back to WAR, Marauders are 'missing' a pet, White lions are missing AOE. Thats just how class mirroring works

AOE:
I do not think there is any doubt that Marauders have an awesom AOE spec. But has it ever poped to your mind that not all Marauder players are mindless demolition spamming bots? I can of course only speak on behalf of my self, but i think AOE if retarded, boring and somthing you can train a monkey to do. It takes all the play out of the game and turns it into big two button spam feast. So where am I going with this, besides that AOE is retarded? Well I would say that it is only fair that the marauder(or any other class) gets to chose his spec/style without gimping him self to a certain 'uber spec' (in marauders case, demolition) . At the moment demolition spec is so strong it is hard to chose differently. That said, brutality and savagery have some nice stuff but are flawed in ways that it makes demolition the safe bet.
So when we talk about class balance, don't give us the "you got uber aoe" cause that doesn't make other spec/mechanics more or less right/balanced. And imo I would not mind swaping out the demolition tree or give up the Concussive Jolt for 3 more sec on our snare.

MARAUDER ISSUES:
I have already said what I want to say about the demolition spec. so ill leave it at that.

Savagery
Is the utility/debuff spec (or tank killer spec) but is more or less obsolete. The 75% armor reduction is great but we already have piercing bite that grats us 50% armor penetraion on mutaded styles. So why on earth spend 10 points to get the last 25%, yes other melees get the benefit of the 75% armor reduction but at the cost gimping your self to the point of not even being able to take down casters. The problem in savagery is that it takes u so long to take down a target that they will have gotton help, or run of (with the help of cc) long before you are even close to taking them down. The other main ability in savagery is the deadly clutch (50% healing reduced and 50% of remaining heal is applied to you). On paper awesom but in reality very different. First of it is a 5/10 sec duration and with a 5 sec duration, then that is basic the only thing u will have time to do. With a 10 sec duration you will actually have time to appliy some propper dmg without worrying that your precious debuffs fading away before applying any dmg to your target. Secondly, with the dmg you do in savagery spec, 50% healing reduction is not enough to prevent them from out healing your dmg. Assist I hear u say, correct, but when you are running an assist train that 50% healing reduction do not realyl play a role anymore. The target will get riped apart with or without the healing debuff.
Buttom line is that you can get the same debuff effects more effenciently from other classes and that the debuff will run out before you are able to take advantage of them.

Brutality
This is the single target dmg tree and it lives up to its description no doubt. You can dish out some serious dmg in brutality. Before I continue, here is a little note to the White lions constantly reminding us of their abilities being positional. For a brutality speced marauder, Impale is his bread & butter which also is positional. So if we are not behind our taget our only other options for medium - good dmg is Convulsive Slashing, debilitate, Guilltine and Pulverize which has 8, 10, 10 and 20 sec cooldown. Im not complaining about this, just reminding you that the brutality marauder has to work them side steps in order to get his impale going, not always an easy task.
Yes he has other tools if the impale doesnt work but they are on long cooldows and not a reliable backup for Impale.
So far it's all good, so what the problem you ask. Well here is the problem, all this beautiful dmg is worth nothing if you can't get to your target. This problem also applies to the savagery speced marauder, but where the brutality has to pick soft or medium armored targets which typically are found in the back lines, the savagery marauder picking a heavily armored frontliner can somewhat be justified with his debuffs. But as all knows, tanks are prefered to be left alone and cc'ed or kited as much as possible.
Keeping the distance closed with your target can be a right nightmare. But honostly I dont considder this a pure marauder flaw but just as much a problem with crowd control. Fortunally for the White lion, he has abilities that make it much easier to stay in to fight as long as needed for delivering a kill.
I will not file/describe this problem as a marauder, or brutality problem. The reason why I mention it here is that brutality, is the marauder spec that suffers the most from this 'closing distance' problem.

WHITE LION
I honostly dont know how good, bad their dmg is but it is my impression that they do ok dmg and more then capable of dishing out enough dmg to take out soft/medium armored target. But what I do know about the While lion is that his fetch has enormous range. It is pretty amazing/funny to see a target getting fetched on max range. Its like he is being short out of a canon and about to cros the map. But what is really cool is their leap ability. Even if they were rooted, stuned, disabled, snared they are able to come back into the fight very fast (yes u can't use it when stuned, but afterwards you can shoot after them and catch up). One of the really cool ways to use it (don't know if it is actually an exploit) is when they use it as they are being kicked back. One day me and my Zealot frind were chased by a group of order. The WL catched us right on the bridge in Dragons wake and my zealot friend said to me "now watch this " and knockbacked the WL over the side of the bridge downto certain death. However, in mid air, way over the side, the WL leaped straight back into my friend and killed him. I must admit, that was pretty smart played by the WL and leaving both me and my frind with a WTF face.

CROWED CONTROL
This is where I (and some others in this thread ) see the main problem. Now I can already sense casters aiming 'stfu bullets' at me and that CC already got nerfed once (patch 0.6 right ?). Well it got fixed in patch 0,6 not nerfed. Before melees were just target dummies, stackable roots, no immunity etc.. u all remember. If there are any old daoc players out there you probably remember the chainable aoe Thane stun. People were just nailed to the ground.
Back to the problem with CC and marauders, which basicly is that we can't keep the distance closed on our targets. One of the reasons we can't do that is that we have nothing to purge cc with. Yes yes.. mutating release... come on.. 1 min cooldown. Ill be rooted, stuned, knocked back what ever 10 times between every use of mutating release. Also it grants no immunity so you can break a stun just to be snared 0.1 sec. after your spent your precious 1 min cooldown 'get out of jail' ability.
What is next in or arsenal to close the distance, Dibilitate - 5 sec 40% snare 10 sec cool down. Great, this means that 50% of the time our target has a fair chance (i would say pretty good chance, as a last resort he can flee) of dodgeing us because even the smallest gab between a melee and his target will give trigger the 'out of range' sign.
Dibilitate is not bad, its just that with all the cc going on it doesnt help that much. Once they have made a gab Dibilitate doesnt do anything, unfortunally this gab is pretty easy to create, partly because dibility's duration is rather short, 5 sec.

Concussive Jolt, yeah all marauders have it since it is so early in the demo tree. However its on a 20 sec cooldown and its reliability is medium I would say. Quite often the target resists, are immune or the cone area system doesnt work properly. This just is not an ability u can realy on when u need to keep the distance since there is a big change that it on cooldown or doesnt affect your target.

Last of all u have the infamous Terrible Embrace. However this ability can be just a useless as it can be usefull. First of it is short range putting you on display for all the range dps. Second it is a 2 sec cast time ability and casting pushback is trigger by ANY dmg. Meaning that you often can add 1-2 more sec on top of the base 2 sec. Third its quite easy to see when we used it on you, hinch it is VERY easily avoided by backing up a bit. Its quite a different story when trying to escape from the lion, unless you have a tank to taunt it or getting all the casters to nuke it. The difference is that TE u can avoid easily by your self. The lion u are dependent on others to help you.

To finish this wall of text of I'd like to give you a typicle scenario for me as a brutality speced marauder.

1) Pick and run to my target
2) Dibilitate (snare) -> first impale
3) i get rooted -> mutating release -> target creates a gab and dibilitate(snare) fades
4) TE -> when target lands i can knocked back quite far
5) at this point i have no chance of catching up again.

There are of course different varients of the above scenario with different kinds of cc but the pattern is the same. There are snares, disable, stuns, knockback, root, knockdown etc. and while we have immunity timers on the cc they are so short that there is plenty of other cc to play around with while u want for immunities to ware off.

CONCLUSION
Well my conclusion is that WL seem fine as they are now. Ofc if u still have buged pets that needs to be fixed. But you sure as hell have the right moveability for a melee to diliver his dmg. On the other hand that is what the marauders are missing. And that has nothing to do with WL has that we must have that aswell. All melees should have a realiable tools to close the distance.
This can be addressed in two ways, either they increase the immunity time or give us something so we can engage in combat again after being cc'ed

well thats was my two cents

/cheers

[LeoricMonolith]

Why do you think most marauders are aoe spec? There's a reason for it, and aoe spec marauders are not just demolition spam bots. Yeah a white lion's mobility is great when it's 12 on 12, but in mass rvr, the main draw for the game, white lion's are fetch bots. Now tell me, do you like being fetched? Do you think anyone does? Do you think I like fetching people? I should be in melee not sitting back with the casters in mass rvr. I'd rather be given the option to choose between 3 equally good specs than have one cookie cutter best possible build. Look at our mastery trees, look at yours. I'm a melee class, but not just that, I'm a medium armor melee class, but I play like either a rdps class or a witch hunter with pounce rather than stealth, the witch hunter probably survives better though.

[onkelsatan]

Why do you think most marauders are aoe spec? There's a reason for it, and aoe spec marauders are not just demolition spam bots. Yeah a white lion's mobility is great when it's 12 on 12, but in mass rvr, the main draw for the game, white lion's are fetch bots. Now tell me, do you like being fetched? Do you think anyone does? Do you think I like fetching people? I should be in melee not sitting back with the casters in mass rvr. I'd rather be given the option to choose between 3 equally good specs than have one cookie cutter best possible build. Look at our mastery trees, look at yours. I'm a melee class, but not just that, I'm a medium armor melee class, but I play like either a rdps class or a witch hunter with pounce rather than stealth, the witch hunter probably survives better though.

Demolition is a total no brainer. not that it not efficient, you just equipe widespread demolition, some str, piercing bite and some toughness and away we go, demolition till there are no order left. Thats pretty much what a spam bot does.

Mobility, yes u can't use in mass rvr fight, at least not in the beginning but nether can we. You say you want to be a front line fighter, well in smaller fight u have the tools for that. In zerg fights.. well sry, only one type of class that can take on a zerg and that is the tanks. After the tanks have broken their front line and kicked then around a little white lion is the ideal class to come in and sweep up. This can be hard for the marauder because we have a hard time closing the gab.

Fetch/terrible enbrace, some like the idea of it and some don't but that really doesn't matter. It has been giving to us as a tool to close the distance. And atm the terrible embrace is not doing that great a job of it. You say that don't like to fish people with fetch. Well the good news is that you dont have to.You have a very efficient way of getting into the battle quickly and bust some melee moves. And I have seen some WL's rip my friends apart, so you must have some sort of melee.

You say u want to a choice of three good specs. I most definitely agree with you, I can also say that we are in the same boat then.

[LeoricMonolith]

No in mass rvr I fetch or die, you on the other hand with competent healers can take much more punishment than I can on the front lines. Your aoe disorient and aoe knockdown allows you to slow and stop incoming melee focus fire, the main thing that kills me. You also have more toughness as a result of your tactics. I see that we were designed for different things, I just think that overall your design is more useful. I'm not opposed to buffing the marauder debuff tree and the marauder single target either, in fact I think marauders should get pounce as part of the deal, just give white lions the tools to be a front liner.

[onkelsatan]

No in mass rvr I fetch or die, you on the other hand with competent healers can take much more punishment than I can on the front lines. Your aoe disorient and aoe knockdown allows you to slow and stop incoming melee focus fire, the main thing that kills me. You also have more toughness as a result of your tactics. I see that we were designed for different things, I just think that overall your design is more useful. I'm not opposed to buffing the marauder debuff tree and the marauder single target either, in fact I think marauders should get pounce as part of the deal, just give white lions the tools to be a front liner.

You know the white lion better then I do but I would guess that we are about equally easy/hard to kill. About the front line fighter in mass rvr, it is true that demolition marauders are a great assest to the front line. But the trap that people tend to fall in again and again is that not all marauders are demolition speced. Me being brutality are in the same boat as you when it comes to mass rvr. If i rush forth ill die instantly, i cant fish cause it will put me to close to the line. I can transform into demolition stand behind the tanks but my dmg will not be that great since im not speced demolition, im missing out on the core abilities that a demolition marauder has, aoe disorient etc. so for me its a so so experience when it comes to mass rvr. And even without being speced demolition we probably still better situaltion then WL when it comes to front line fighter and I wouldnt mind if u had such a spec. So for now im forced to respec into something that I hate and you need to wait your turn when it untill to can move in and sweep up after the tanks.


Just out of curiosity, in the warhammer lore, what type of warriors are white lions actually ? Im not into the lore so i wouldnt know, but when thinking about it the white lion doesnt sound to me like a front line warrior, sounds more like a rogue class something :D btu again not warhammer geek so i could be horribly wrong.

[LeoricMonolith]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Elves_(Warhammer)#White_Lions_of_Chrace

The phoenix king's body guard, basically it's a toss up between lions and swordmasters as to who is the real tank in the lore, I think it made more sense to give SMs a shield than white lions so that's the only reason I can imagine that SMs were made the tank. As far as balance goes, having oomph in your front line is important, order doesn't have that right now. Yeah it's great that we have a mobile mdps class, but it's not as sorely needed as a more marauder type class.

[onkelsatan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Elves_(Warhammer)#White_Lions_of_Chrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Elves_%28Warhammer%29#White_Lions_of_Chrace)

The phoenix king's body guard, basically it's a toss up between lions and swordmasters as to who is the real tank in the lore, I think it made more sense to give SMs a shield than white lions so that's the only reason I can imagine that SMs were made the tank. As far as balance goes, having oomph in your front line is important, order doesn't have that right now. Yeah it's great that we have a mobile mdps class, but it's not as sorely needed as a more marauder type class.

hmm a body guard, doesnt sound like a front line warrior to me. More like someone that stays behind and protects his fellow caster/support people.

[kayeffem]

hmm a body guard, doesnt sound like a front line warrior to me. More like someone that stays behind and protects his fellow caster/support people.

Guess white lions are working as intended then. You'll need to learn to live with fetch then. Boy I'm sure glad I rolled a ranged dps class.

[Drexciyian]

People posting here about marauders seem to forget alot of the abilities even if they arent tree based require you to be in a certain multation

Some abilities look grat on paper but are cos they dont scale with str, guillotine for example looks like it does almost 200 dmg more than impale but it actually only about 50 requires the target to be under 50% costs a talent point and uses 10 more AP, most marauders dont bother taking it

[LeoricMonolith]

hmm a body guard, doesnt sound like a front line warrior to me. More like someone that stays behind and protects his fellow caster/support people.

The Black Guard of Naggarond are the favored warriors of the Witch King Malekith, and are given the sacred task of not only serving as his personal bodyguard, but as his heartless enforcers on the field of battle. Those who would become the Black Guard are taken from birth from their mothers. A Black Guard has no family ties to distract them, they are children of hatred and war and are raised from infancy steeped in battle and blood. Each Black Guard has personally sworn an oath of undying devotion at the feet of the Witch King, it is this oath that lights the fires of hatred and scorn deep in their hearts, for no warrior can be greater then the one chosen by Malekith himself.

Hmmm well the black guard are the personal bodyguard of malekith, we're essentially the good guy equivalent.

[Seto]

Imo, give squigg herders the same pull as WL has, just so order also can enjoy being fetched from 150 feet away as well :3

[Khaelann]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Elves_(Warhammer)#White_Lions_of_Chrace

The phoenix king's body guard, basically it's a toss up between lions and swordmasters as to who is the real tank in the lore, I think it made more sense to give SMs a shield than white lions so that's the only reason I can imagine that SMs were made the tank. As far as balance goes, having oomph in your front line is important, order doesn't have that right now. Yeah it's great that we have a mobile mdps class, but it's not as sorely needed as a more marauder type class.

I dont think it is a toss up at all. Thing is, Warhammer didnt have these things called Tanks, healers, mdps and rdps. You had lots of different units and if one is to call something a tank then it would be the mounted units. Dragon Princes and Cold one Knights, the good old heavy+shield+barding(cold one bonus) mounted units with the 2+ saves. Not some Sword Masters(heavy and twohanders, running at what, 5+ save?) or White Lions(that didnt even have a cat, adding the pet is a disgrace) that were also alot lighter in armor than Dragon Princes.

Now, if I remember the old books right, White Lion mirror was the Corsair, Sword Master mirror was the Executioner and Phoenix Guard mirror was the Black Guard. Granted, it has been many years since I played or even read any of the fluff but still.

Then again, I've always questioned many of the class choices they've done. The only reason I can come up with the choices they did is that they will add the more exciting ones later when they add more races. Oh well, one can hope.

[Spifnar]

Why do you think most marauders are aoe spec? There's a reason for it, and aoe spec marauders are not just demolition spam bots. Yeah a white lion's mobility is great when it's 12 on 12, but in mass rvr, the main draw for the game, white lion's are fetch bots.

I'd rather be given the option to choose between 3 equally good specs than have one cookie cutter best possible build. Look at our mastery trees, look at yours.

Being viable in 12v12 is something you sneeze at. Pounce's amazing power to overcome knockback and snares you ignore. Pounce+5s cooldown snare you also ignore. Quite simply, there is no way for a healer to get a WL off them barring knockdown/stun.

The simple fact is that all MDPS needs group support in zerg v zerg. There is nothing in the marauder arsenal that allows them to survive long enough to unleash AE without guard and a ton of healers. And that same thing will allow a WL to do the same.

[onkelsatan]

People posting here about marauders seem to forget alot of the abilities even if they arent tree based require you to be in a certain multation

Some abilities look grat on paper but are cos they dont scale with str, guillotine for example looks like it does almost 200 dmg more than impale but it actually only about 50 requires the target to be under 50% costs a talent point and uses 10 more AP, most marauders dont bother taking it

I dont know if u are refering to me. But I know I left out Charge as an ability to close distance, however is a 30s cooldown, any action or hit breaks it and even worse, any type of cc will nail u to the ground regardless of charge.

And about the guillotine, for me it deals just about the same dmg as impale. And because Impale requires you to backstab your target I usually keep my guillotine till low health. It usually finishes then off. I wouldnt call it an uber ability but I like it and it works for me.

[kayeffem]

I dont know if u are refering to me. But I know I left out Charge as an ability to close distance, however is a 30s cooldown, any action or hit breaks it and even worse, any type of cc will nail u to the ground regardless of charge.

And about the guillotine, for me it deals just about the same dmg as impale. And because Impale requires you to backstab your target I usually keep my guillotine till low health. It usually finishes then off. I wouldnt call it an uber ability but I like it and it works for me.

Umm not sure what you're smoking, but charge doesnt break on damage and it doesnt knock you down.

Guillotine is bugged, join the club on broken abilities. And please dont talk about positional requirements to a white lion, that's just stupid.

[Meronis]

Umm not sure what you're smoking, but charge doesnt break on damage and it doesnt knock you down.

Guillotine is bugged, join the club on broken abilities. And please dont talk about positional requirements to a white lion, that's just stupid.

I think he was referring to hitting an ability, not being hit with damage (could be wrong), and I don't think he was actually talking about getting KD'd (could still be wrong), but rather getting ripped to shreds thanks to FF. And seriously, there's no need to be rude...I rarely ever post, but when I see a post like this, I get a bit annoyed, I mean c'mon it's just a game in the end, no need to be uncivilized about it.

Just saying.

[ManCaptain]

Pounce is a skill that destro should have.
As long as shadow warrior gets this http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1852

[Proletariat]

As long as shadow warrior gets this http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1852

They don't need it, all Shadow Warriors invented their own way to run away all the time.

[onkelsatan]

I think he was referring to hitting an ability, not being hit with damage (could be wrong), and I don't think he was actually talking about getting KD'd (could still be wrong), but rather getting ripped to shreds thanks to FF. And seriously, there's no need to be rude...I rarely ever post, but when I see a post like this, I get a bit annoyed, I mean c'mon it's just a game in the end, no need to be uncivilized about it.

Just saying.

Hehe don't worry about it, but you are right about peoples atitude and it is not pretty. On the other hand if you have read my initial post i have been playing these games for eight years and have seen much worse then this. you could say I have grown a filter for such :D

But to clear things up for Mr. Kayeffe, your right, taking dmg does not break charge and that was not really what I wanted to say. I admit it, sometimes I do the "speak/write and then think" instead "Think and then speak/write". It happens and If it has affected you in any way I'm sry for that too.

Now what I wanted to say about Charge. Charge does not protect you from CC effects, thus you can hit charge and get fire caged the next second and can't move. Now snare only slows you down and you will still be able to move. But my point in general was that the 'freedom' charge grants you to break through the front line is somewhat limited because CC can to put a complete stop to it or atleast decrease the effect of it.

Last comment on guillotine. No I was not aware of it was broken and I will admit that I thought it was a little strange that a 10sec cooldown, ability that you spec for, a 50% health requirement did less dmg then impale (not much though). But still I can put it to good use even if it does not do the dmg it is supposed to (apparently).

[onkelsatan]

Umm not sure what you're smoking, but charge doesnt break on damage and it doesnt knock you down.

Guillotine is bugged, join the club on broken abilities. And please dont talk about positional requirements to a white lion, that's just stupid.

Forgot the last thing about positional requirements and the White Lion. Just because the White lion has many more abilities that are positional, does not change the fact one bit that the majority of a brut marauders dmg comes from Impale (rear positional) and has very few options when it come to dishing out good dmg, that again is the main idea with the brutality spec. Ofc savagery and demolition spec, different story but now I was talking about brut spec.

[LeoricMonolith]

Being viable in 12v12 is something you sneeze at. Pounce's amazing power to overcome knockback and snares you ignore. Pounce+5s cooldown snare you also ignore. Quite simply, there is no way for a healer to get a WL off them barring knockdown/stun.

The simple fact is that all MDPS needs group support in zerg v zerg. There is nothing in the marauder arsenal that allows them to survive long enough to unleash AE without guard and a ton of healers. And that same thing will allow a WL to do the same.

Are you joking? You're absolutely right mdps are very very very group dependent, the marauder is better at living through an engagement from the front lines because of 3 things:

Concussive Jolt (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8423) which allows them to knockdown a large clump of enemy melee, and continue dpsing while gaining initial position in the fight.

Hulking Brute (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8444) Which would be a about a 50% toughness buff for me if I took Monstro all the way up. (the tooltip is bugged by the way, I believe it's actually 160 toughness not 320.)

Insane Whispers (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8445) which when combined with aoe damage will stop a whole ton of incoming melee damage.

It's active defenses like these that allow the marauder to better stand up on the front lines. Let's compare that with my aoe defensive abilities:

Submission (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9169)

Or I can pounce out of the front lines which gives destro an easy way right into our back lines.

I'm not saying that the white lion is completely bad, just that our role isn't nearly as useful as a marauder, if I could give destro white lions and take marauders I would in an instant. 12 on 12 is great, but we need to be competent at more than scenarios, because most of the fighting I've been in in orvr is at the very least 24 on 24. I don't want to be unfair about this either, I don't want destro nerfed, I just want the white lion class balanced.

[LeoricMonolith]

Imo, give squigg herders the same pull as WL has, just so order also can enjoy being fetched from 150 feet away as well :3

I don't think anyone should be getting fetched 150 ft away, I think our class should be balanced to not be terrible in anything but 1 on 1 melee (like you) and then have fetch nerfed.

[Krazilak Tzeentalon]

WL's need most of their retarded position requirements removed and a proper AoE tree like the marauders have. Pet needs more survivabiliy and it needs to work 100% of the time, not 80% of the time or so.

No more AoE cc is needed, so they could take a look at Concussive Jolt and make it single target or something. WL's got a single target stun, so then they'd be pretty equal in terms of CC.

If these changes are done, Fetch and Pounce need to be looked at, however. 65 ft spammable teleport to your desired target with a damage component is just really, really, really good for a melee dps class, and Fetch is just retarded with the HUGE range on it.
No, I don't think Mythic intended that WL's, to which pets are iconic, send their pets to suicide runs just to use their one broken ability?


Basically, you want them to be the same thing, but one has a pet, and one has a funny left arm?

No.

[HeatPhalanx]

They're mirrors. If you think it's fair that the Marauder gets three trees that are viable and one that is preferred because it is overpowered (which is undisputable as Demolition is currently bugged and not taking the 5 second cooldown it should be taking, so if you disagree I'm afraid you're wrong on that basis, not to mention that all you see are Monstrosity spec Marauders) and White Lions are stuck with one usable tree leaving Order with no debuff MDPS or AoE MDPS (Destruction's current I Win Button in Open RvR is the Demospambot-spec Marauder), then you're really posting in the wrong forum.

Edit: Oh didn't see you just happened to be a Marauder, my bad :)

[Seto]

WL has arguably the highest mobility in the game, and much better single target dps than the marauder, and over twice the range on its fetch.

Marauder has many different abilites that can be specced for, and most are dependant on using the correct mutation, i.e. it excludes the usage of other abilites.

And basically, people in this thread argue that WL should get the same variety in abilites as marauder, while keeping their high single target dps and mobility?


Tbh, the only thing I see that marauders can spec for that WL has nothing similar to in mastery, to reduce the targets armor.

[Foofmonger]

WL has arguably the highest mobility in the game, and much better single target dps than the marauder, and over twice the range on its fetch.

Marauder has many different abilites that can be specced for, and most are dependant on using the correct mutation, i.e. it excludes the usage of other abilites.

And basically, people in this thread argue that WL should get the same variety in abilites as marauder, while keeping their high single target dps and mobility?


Tbh, the only thing I see that marauders can spec for that WL has nothing similar to in mastery, to reduce the targets armor.

Exactly.

A lot of WLs seem to want:

The DPS and utility of a Marauder (both single target and AoE)
Plus all their pet damage
Plus fetch
Plus pounce
Plus not having a stance mechanic

Basically, they want to be better then a marauder in every single possible way.

Because balanced means being completely overpowered... right?

[LeoricMonolith]

Exactly.

A lot of WLs seem to want:

The DPS and utility of a Marauder (both single target and AoE)
Plus all their pet damage
Plus fetch
Plus pounce
Plus not having a stance mechanic

Basically, they want to be better then a marauder in every single possible way.

Because balanced means being completely overpowered... right?

Who is saying this? I'd be quite pleased if they deleted the white lion class, gave order an exact mirror of you, and called it good. I don't think it would fit lore wise, but it'd be a whole lot better gameplay wise. Mobility is all well and good in a lot of instances, but in instances where we need to be on the front lines, it doesn't help a whole lot. This wouldn't be a big deal if they added the remaining to 2 mdps classes and order's was front line mdps, and destro's was mobile mdps. The problem is we have mobile mdps with no front line mdps, while you have front line mdps, with no mobile mdps. One of these two roles is a whole lot more useful in most situations in ORvR. I'd say that white lions have the edge in scenarios, but in orvr it isn't even a contest of who is better, and you bring much more to a well played team than we do.

Bottom line is if anyone is advocating only buffs to the WL, with no adjustments to fetch, and no improvements for marauders in areas where the WL is good, then they're obviously biased, and probably wrong. They should make every spec line attractive, like many of the other classes have. I don't think I've met a non-aoe spec marauder, and I don't think I've met a non-single target dps spec white lion, which tells me something is wrong here.

[Krazilak Tzeentalon]

Who is saying this? I'd be quite pleased if they deleted the white lion class, gave order an exact mirror of you, and called it good. I don't think it would fit lore wise, but it'd be a whole lot better gameplay wise. Mobility is all well and good in a lot of instances, but in instances where we need to be on the front lines, it doesn't help a whole lot. This wouldn't be a big deal if they added the remaining to 2 mdps classes and order's was front line mdps, and destro's was mobile mdps. The problem is we have mobile mdps with no front line mdps, while you have front line mdps, with no mobile mdps. One of these two roles is a whole lot more useful in most situations in ORvR. I'd say that white lions have the edge in scenarios, but in orvr it isn't even a contest of who is better, and you bring much more to a well played team than we do.

Bottom line is if anyone is advocating only buffs to the WL, with no adjustments to fetch, and no improvements for marauders in areas where the WL is good, then they're obviously biased, and probably wrong. They should make every spec line attractive, like many of the other classes have. I don't think I've met a non-aoe spec marauder, and I don't think I've met a non-single target dps spec white lion, which tells me something is wrong here.


I'm Savagery.

Turning your tanks into whimpering kittens is good times.

[LeoricMonolith]

I'm Savagery.

Turning your tanks into whimpering kittens is good times.

So is savagery effective as a main spec line? We really only have one spec that is particularly effective. It focuses on debuffs right?

[Foofmonger]

So is savagery effective as a main spec line? We really only have one spec that is particularly effective. It focuses on debuffs right?

Its more viable then Brut, but less-so then Monstro. Although Savagery/Monstro is probably the best overall spec.

Yes, it is a debuff line. The best parts about it are the 75% armor debuff, and tactic that makes our healing debuff 50% (which is merely "ok" now). Other then that, its based on dot damage mostly, and does very very little burst damage. If you split spec with monstro you grab the AoE KD, the AoE disorient, and the single target disorient as well. You can also swap over to Monstro stance and AoE a lil bit if you want.

Brut is our "worst" path at the moment. It does nice positional damage, but has virtually no utility whatsoever. No healing debuffs, no mobility, no nothing.

Oh an WL needs some nice buffs. Hunter is easy to make viable, you just make SB spammable. Guardian needs more work (BP should be a 5 point ability, FO should be removed, and you should get a new 9 point ability), and all those junky PvE aggro spec tactics need to be completely replaced.

Currently though the WL is better then the marauder at single target burst damage and mobility. The marauder has superior aoe/debuffs/cc. The changes I listed above would fix the aoe imbalance, and the reworking of Guardian should effectively balance the CC out (as long as the new ability is CC related), so then it just becomes debuffs vs mobility, which is a fair tradeoff.

[LeoricMonolith]

Its more viable then Brut, but less-so then Monstro. Although Savagery/Monstro is probably the best overall spec.

Yes, it is a debuff line. The best parts about it are the 75% armor debuff, and tactic that makes our healing debuff 50% (which is merely "ok" now). Other then that, its based on dot damage mostly, and does very very little burst damage. If you split spec with monstro you grab the AoE KD, the AoE disorient, and the single target disorient as well. You can also swap over to Monstro stance and AoE a lil bit if you want.

Brut is our "worst" path at the moment. It does nice positional damage, but has virtually no utility whatsoever. No healing debuffs, no mobility, no nothing.

Oh an WL needs some nice buffs. Hunter is easy to make viable, you just make SB spammable. Guardian needs more work (BP should be a 5 point ability, FO should be removed, and you should get a new 9 point ability), and all those junky PvE aggro spec tactics need to be completely replaced.

Currently though the WL is better then the marauder at single target burst damage and mobility. The marauder has superior aoe/debuffs/cc. The changes I listed above would fix the aoe imbalance, and the reworking of Guardian should effectively balance the CC out (as long as the new ability is CC related), so then it just becomes debuffs vs mobility, which is a fair tradeoff.

That sounds good, although you might have to rework hunter because tearing blade affects SB, so it might be too good for non-aoe spec lions to have something like that. I really think our aoe tree should offer at least as much utility as yours, but it should be balanced. I think a fetch nerf with a big pet survivability buff would be a good idea as well. And of course adjustments to your single target tree to bring it more in line with ours.

[Seto]

There is still the differences between fetch and TE though.

65 range and 150 range is just too big a difference.

Yes, you run the risk of loosing your lion every time you use fetch.

Marauders risk the combined focus fire of every ranged class in the game when we attempt to use TE.

Which class has the highest risk? The one that will most likely die in the attempt, or the one who might have to resummon a pet? :p

For marauders, TE is more of an ability to stop people from running away, but fetch for white lions works as 1-shot kill ability since it can pull from so insanely far away.

If I somehow dont get killed immediatly by focus fire when I pull an order from the herd, it doesnt get pulled into the middle of the destro zerg, and its still within healing range of order healers, so in most cases it is able to run back again unless they get assisted immediatly.

Fetch simply pulls a destro out of range of the healers into the middle of the order zerg, where we get killed instantly.

Suggestions: Either lower fetch range to 100, or increase marauder TE range to 100, or, my favorite, just give SH 150 range fetch with their squigg, just so order also can enjoy the experience of being 1 shotted in the middle of a zerg with no way to defend oneself.

A suggestion my guildm8 thought up was keep the range on fetch 150, but make it so that the punt doesnt throw the target further than 65 feet regardless.

[LeoricMonolith]

Yes, of course any buffs to our aoe line to bring it in line with yours would include a fetch nerf, but I think you're really overstating the usefulness of fetch. Fetch is mostly used for me in 2 situations:

Where we've already won
Where we've already lost

It's nice for both, but it doesn't really change much. If you're in a ranged stand off in the open field you're doing it wrong. Yeah if we're getting camped I can easily fetch people and get kills, but at that point destro is obviously dominating us. If I'm winning I can fetch people to me, but does it matter that much? We're already going to stomp them, fetch just exposes me to less danger. If they don't change the white lion class, fetch needs to stay how it is or orvr will just be complete fail. I think fetch should be nerfed, along with bringing the marauder and wl more close together balance wise through buffs. Marauders should have viable single-target dps along with their already good aoe, WLs should have viable aoe along with their already good single target dps.

[Kriesha]

There is still the differences between fetch and TE though.


Will probably never happen, but I would like to see TE and Fetch made exactly the same mechanically. Both 65ft 2 second casts and not dependent on a pet. Also note that the 65ft range is only for initial cast, the range at which the ability functions is longer, probably around 80-90ft.

[Darkpheonix]

Alot of people wouldn't have any problem with fetch being reduced in range if how it functions and the pets survivability were to be updated. Namely, remove the capability for the lion to simply be taunted away, increase the lions survivability (this one is big), and I would say increase the lions base speed to match a normal run speed so there is no need to burn a tactic slot just to make it be able to normally catch a person. Alot of why fetch should infact be longer resides merely with the lion in alot of ways to the point of the move either being capable because destro isnt paying attention at all, or it becomes 100% useless because destro is actually concious of whats happening around them all due the current state of the lion. Instant cast isnt instant when you actually have to get the lion onto the target first before you can do anything. Sure if hes already there it might be instant cast, but if hes sitting on a target in the back that long with how squishy he is then there honestly is another issue thats completely seperate from order.

Normally for me I run with the loner tactic and the lion is only there when either A) his short lived life is to scare the living hell out of destro casters and I don't care what happens to him or B) I actually intend to nab some one. One of two things happen I discover that half of the other side is clueless and fetch is possible or at least one person is paying attention and the lion is dead before it breaks past the melee line (or a tank taunts it).

[Brutalwolf]

TBH if the A.I. on my pet got any dumber I'd get an Engineer to shoot it and use it as a rug.

[Foofmonger]

TBH if the A.I. on my pet got any dumber I'd get an Engineer to shoot it and use it as a rug.

Get an AM to enchant it and you have a magic carpet!

[Compel]

(Destruction's current I Win Button in Open RvR is the Demospambot-spec Marauder)
Edit: Oh didn't see you just happened to be a Marauder, my bad :)


From experiencing a couple of battles earlier today, this has got me highly concerned. Both fights probably lasted less than a minute. Demolished 1 (http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/compelbast/Warhammer#5292313176378466738) and Demolished 2. (http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/compelbast/Warhammer#5292313224864725090)

You'll notice that I even missed some demolitions there were that many of them.

[Ayamo]

With the exception of Fetch, most, if not all, of the mirror abilities are in favor of the marauder.

Pounce is freaking awesome, and WL's are by far better in what melee dps should have, pure, raw, burst.

[LeoricMonolith]

Pounce is freaking awesome, and WL's are by far better in what melee dps should have, pure, raw, burst.

Great so where does good aoe dps, tons of utility, and survivability come into play? Or the iwin button rank 4 morale for keeps?

[Ayamo]

Great so where does good aoe dps, tons of utility, and survivability come into play? Or the iwin button rank 4 morale for keeps?

Melee is hardly ever long enough alive for morale 4 for as much as I care, and not a single mdps class has a real roll in keeps atm.


And tons of utility? Cause of 2 cc's? I'd easily switch 1 cc for the best mobility ingame. Not to mention cc already means a lot less if you assist train with tanks or burst everything down in 3 secs to start with.


The grass aint that much greener.

[Desperto]

I think that, most of the destruction players, are so used to not having to deal with a real melee dps threat on the field, that they actually think the WL has insane burst because he uses a 2 hander and has a +50% crit damage tactic.

[Ayamo]

I think that, most of the destruction players, are so used to not having to deal with a real melee dps threat on the field, that they actually think the WL has insane burst because he uses a 2 hander and has a +50% crit damage tactic.


WL's can actually outburst WE's, the thing is that WE's are better at locking people down.

[CptCosmic]

Marauder with pure raw dps and burst + AOE knockback, finisher, 50% perma armor ignoring, a single target and AOE disorient that both stack with themself.

here is the build:
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=14#0:0:9:680:9:672:25:8441:8442:843 5:8445

killing someone with this build is pretty easy, he wont last more than few seconds without being able to do something due to +2s build up time.

now show me a WL that can all those things.

I have both chars at R40 and can say that a marauder is definitely much better.

[Xae]

Marauder with pure raw dps and burst + AOE knockback, finisher, 50% perma armor ignoring, a single target and AOE disorient that both stack with themself.

here is the build:
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=14#0:0:9:680:9:672:25:8441:8442:843 5:8445

killing someone with this build is pretty easy, he wont last more than few seconds without being able to do something due to +2s build up time.

now show me a WL that can all those things.

I have both chars at R40 and can say that a marauder is definitely much better.

Where is the marauder equivalent of Pounce, 50% attack speed buff and 150 feet pull?

[Foofmonger]

Marauder with pure raw dps and burst + AOE knockback, finisher, 50% perma armor ignoring, a single target and AOE disorient that both stack with themself.

here is the build:
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=14#0:0:9:680:9:672:25:8441:8442:843 5:8445

killing someone with this build is pretty easy, he wont last more than few seconds without being able to do something due to +2s build up time.

now show me a WL that can all those things.

I have both chars at R40 and can say that a marauder is definitely much better.

Then you are a scrub, because you just posted on of the worst marauder specs I have ever seen.

1. The AoE disorient is not usable in Brutality mutation.
2. Growing Instability is a garbage tactic
3. We don't have any Knockbacks, you mean knockdowns.
4. The 50% armor ignore is only on special attacks that require a mutation, its not "perma".
5. Finisher? What are we... WEs? If you mean Guillotene, it hardly does more damage then Impale (but it is nice to not have the positional on it).

Regardless, a WL can spec...


http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=19#7:160:13:8232:0:0:25:9212:9204:9 210:9198

They get:

Pounce
50% decreased auto attack speed
A single target disorient
An outgoing healing debuff
Tearing Blade, which is a huge DPS increase.
50% more crit damage for player + lion

I.e. they are for more mobile, do more damage, and have better utility then a Brutality marauder.

[bkt0]

i want the 50% crit dmg bonus for my marauder :cry:

until they fix growing instability.

[sbarra1x]

White lions are very clearly a much better class overall.

Yes marauders can have more utility in terms of debuffs than the WL if specked correctly, which is all very well, however this is pretty much the only thing that they have over the WL, and frankly it pales in comparison to the rest of the class.

WLs have considerably higher survivability no matter how they speck, and if they choose to go down the path of the guardian then they are actually capable of lasting practically as long as 2H tanks, whist still retaining some very nice utility and some of the highest potential burst damage in the game.

They also have infinitely better mobility which is a monumental asset to any melee dps class, especially one that is defined as a melee brawler, and it fits the role more so than any other ability in the game, imho.

Basically WLs have better survivability by a considerably large amount, Better burst damage by a rather large margin, and incredibly superior mobility. The marauders on the other hand have a couple more utility based abilities. That’s pretty much it.

[Ceelarini]

WLs have considerably higher survivability no matter how they speck



out of curiosity what s exactly this higher survivability?

as for the mobility ever pounced after someone running?

[Raskol]

Quick disclaimer: I don't really think marauders are necessarily a better class than white lions. A white lion that goes axeman/loner with pounce (the only really viable build right now) can do some insane unkitable single target damage (and virtually nothing else), but they do outshine the marauder by a good margin in that respect. Now, as to how useful that is compared to aoe cc/dps (where the marauder outshines the WL to a much greater degree than the WL outshines the marauder in single target performance) when most/all pvp in this game is in groups of 12 or more, I'll leave you to judge.

One thing I do want to talk about, though, is some of the really laughable BS that is being tossed out here. I find it hard to figure out how white lions have better survivability than marauders. People keep throwing that around and it really is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

To talk about the survivability of a class, you have to consider first, what tools they get, and second, what they have to give up to get those tools.

Let's look at WLs first.

For tactics:

- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=819 racial tactic, only affects a few magus spells. mostly useless.
- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9200 One tactic that gives both them and their pet 10% extra parry (while the marauder, as a dual wielder, receives 10% natural parry for free)
- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9216 A tactic that gives 100-150 health to player and pet every FIVE SECONDS (worthless, and in worst spec line)
- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9217 And a tactic which makes http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9166 give them +600 armor and 10% disrupt for 15 seconds (pretty nice, but very high in the worst spec line, and requires you to spec in and use one of the worst attacks in the game to gain the bonus)

(by the way, the spec that most/all white lions run will be able to use none of these---all 4 tactic slots are required for other abilities in order to make the WL a viable dps---a WL that runs any of these tactics will lose a significant chunk of single target dps or their disorient)

For skills:

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9169
http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9162

That's it. Zero tactics for defense that are useable on any viable build, the aoe detaunt every mdps gets, and an 80 point toughness boost while you are in a certain "stance" (which, again, most white lions do not run with).

Oh, you can also use pounce to get away from people, if you don't mind the fact that it can only be used to jump into another enemy. Can work. usually doesn't. Would rather have agile escape, cooldown included, any day of the week (at least for defensive purposes, not that pounce isn't awesome offensively).

Now, for marauders:

Tactics:

- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=798 racial tactic, surprisingly ele resist is a bit better on a marauder than it is on a WL, I'll leave it to you to figure out why :p
- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=797 (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=797) (also pretty worthless since the shields nerf, but still probably as good as furious mending and does not require spec. if shields are reverted to former state, this will be 2-3 times as good as FM)
- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8429 Not so great overall, can be userful situationally.
- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8444 ignore tooltip, this adds 160. You know what other classes you find +160 toughness tactics on? Tanks. This tactic requires you to spec into the line that every almost Marauder specs into.
- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8441 and http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8438 Just in case you like init better than toughness. Also includes your choice of str or weapon skill (so you can get more parry-disarms off! :D)
- http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8433 Amazingly good. Permanent aoe detaunt? Sign me up please. Probably one of the best defensive tactics in the game. Won't save you from ranged damage, but otherwise...wow. Oh yeah, by the way...this is a core tactic, no mastery points required O_o.

Skills:

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8402
http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8403 (grants 68 tough 23 wounds at 40)
http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8411

Vastly more useful and varied defensive tactics, which are all either core or low in a line---and therefore usable. The marauder is a lot more flexible tacticwise than a WL as well---whereas a WL *needs* all 4 tactic slots to do the kind of dps that will justify his existence, the marauder can afford to take a 1 or 2 defensive tactics and still do his job.

The +200 tough buff edges them over skillwise as well. Slightly.

Did i mention natural +10% parry from dual wield?

You might think WL has an advantage in getting away with pounce, but this is arguably offset by the marauder's ability to knock down and disorient everyone attacking him, along with disarm on parry and knockdown on disrupt :). Sometimes those skills will save your live where pounce wouldn't, sometimes pounce will save you where those won't.


(TLDR version: marauder survivability is *way* better than WL's. The only survivability a WL has is their mobility with pounce, and pounce can only take you to another enemy target---I will leave you to think for yourself why this would not be the ideal way to escape danger.)

[CptCosmic]

Then you are a scrub, because you just posted on of the worst marauder specs I have ever seen.

1. The AoE disorient is not usable in Brutality mutation.
2. Growing Instability is a garbage tactic
3. We don't have any Knockbacks, you mean knockdowns.
4. The 50% armor ignore is only on special attacks that require a mutation, its not "perma".
5. Finisher? What are we... WEs? If you mean Guillotene, it hardly does more damage then Impale (but it is nice to not have the positional on it).

Regardless, a WL can spec...


http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=19#7:160:13:8232:0:0:25:9212:9204:9 210:9198

They get:

Pounce
50% decreased auto attack speed
A single target disorient
An outgoing healing debuff
Tearing Blade, which is a huge DPS increase.
50% more crit damage for player + lion

I.e. they are for more mobile, do more damage, and have better utility then a Brutality marauder.
1. l2p your marauder? you can switch mutation in a fight once easily.
2. whatever
3. it does not matter what it is, the class is full of nice CC.
4. and most of moronders attacks require a mutation -.-
5. every dmg increase matters -.-

pounce only works with a target thus it is not an escape tool
moronder have two disorients
the healing debuff sux cause it only works on heals they use themselve what is hardly an issue with a disorient
you have piercing bite which is also a huge dps increase
lion hits like a wet noodle and dies to 2 hits from random AOE.

[Desperto]

WL's can actually outburst WE's, the thing is that WE's are better at locking people down.

I'm sorry, but i once saw a witch elf bursting down a swordmaster under 6 seconds. A Swordmaster.

The only thing that really impresses me, on a white lion, is their mobility with pounce, fetch is counterable with a timed taunt so i dont worry that much. Them again i play a disciple so i only get targeted by lions when i really start pissing people off, so i might be biased. Anyway, white lions usually run out of juice pretty fast, so if i can ouheal them by 5 seconds, i usually win.

Anyway, i really think destruction is kinda spoiled on this point, much like order was when they had the ridiculous bright wizard making tanks scared of charging and making themselves a target.

Now, if you ask me if i would take a marauder over a white lion, it gets kinda tricky, but since i tend to think on warband setups, i would take control over burst any day, specially since there are no anti-assist tools in this game, so dps eventually gets to be too much, while control doesnt.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

[Karandor]

A guy in this thread posted a build without cull the weak... and is talking about burst DPS......


Really how can you take thin the herd over cull the weak....

[LeoricMonolith]

Melee is hardly ever long enough alive for morale 4 for as much as I care, and not a single mdps class has a real roll in keeps atm.


And tons of utility? Cause of 2 cc's? I'd easily switch 1 cc for the best mobility ingame. Not to mention cc already means a lot less if you assist train with tanks or burst everything down in 3 secs to start with.


The grass aint that much greener.

Please go have a look at monstro, it's 2 aoe CC's, plus a few other non-aoe ones. I'd gladly give marauders pounce if they made our aoe tree not suck. Marauders are much better in a team setting, I'm more like a witch elf with less cc, and many, many abilities that flat out don't work or suck. Please understand that a white lion does fine single target dps, but that doesn't generally win you orvr fights does it? And that's the main draw of the game.

[DreadMage]

1. l2p your marauder? you can switch mutation in a fight once easily.
2. whatever
3. it does not matter what it is, the class is full of nice CC.
4. and most of moronders attacks require a mutation -.-
5. every dmg increase matters -.-

pounce only works with a target thus it is not an escape tool
moronder have two disorients
the healing debuff sux cause it only works on heals they use themselve what is hardly an issue with a disorient
you have piercing bite which is also a huge dps increase
lion hits like a wet noodle and dies to 2 hits from random AOE.

1. you need to "L2P" if you actually think/try to stance-dance during PvP.
2. got plenty more borked skills there
3. knockdown and 2 spec disorients... not that much CC
4. spell it with me "M-A-R-A-U-D-E-R", not "Moronder". Also, whats your point, auto-attack makes up a large chunk of a MDPS damage, and it does not ignore armor.
5. Flanking + Impale does more damage than Guilo. Unless you pop Guilo into someone's back, the damage is not impressive. Last time I checked, My Imaple hit for 450~ while my Guilo hit for 500~ into a NPC's back. <3 Mitigation.

[Dastion]

I think the Marauder has a bit of an edge over the WL. Yes, Fetch has much longer range.. but as an overall career the Marauder seems to come out ahead. It just seems that except for that one thorn we keep hearing about (Fetch's Range) the career is overall better. They have excellent ability line ups, great special effects (I love the detaunt), better overall mastery specs, ect.

I mean, just look at the White Lion abilities. They have two abilities that are absolutely useless in PvP. This is a PvP game, and they gave them TWO abilities that are only good for redirecting threat in PvE?

And the sad thing is, I'd bet that Fetch will get nerfed before White Lions get there ability and mastery line ups tweaked to be more appealing.

[Ntranced]

I'd gladly trade pounce for an AoE disorient or knockdown... in a hearbeat. Pounce is really nice for getting to a back line but you might as well put a big flashing red target on you every time you use it - a target that says "focus fire here" to be precise.

Chances are every time you actually pounce you go forward, you go out of heal range until the healer catches up and to be fair the only thing you are going to take down before you pounce out again or die is a squishy. Now if you pounce on a sorc most destro don't even bother, but try a healer and relish being focus fired.

WL is however a good class, just has far too much reliance on positionals (our disorient needs one AND a tactic slot and its single person), our heal debuff and armor debuff also require them. I'd trade some of our "legendary" (ROFL) auto-attack damage for removing the positional requirements (hell its ok for PvE but thats it) and an AoE disorient. To be fair you could take fetch too if we can get an AoE KD on pounce :)

[Ntranced]

WLs have considerably higher survivability no matter how they speck, and if they choose to go down the path of the guardian then they are actually capable of lasting practically as long as 2H tanks, whist still retaining some very nice utility and some of the highest potential burst damage in the game.

Basically WLs have better survivability by a considerably large amount, Better burst damage by a rather large margin, and incredibly superior mobility. The marauders on the other hand have a couple more utility based abilities. That’s pretty much it.

Is this all anecdotal evidence from someone who doesn't appear to play the class? To be perfectly honest, anyone that plays guardian more or less gives up any burst damage ability. Axeman is the damage tree FYI.

With regard to utility Guardian gives you a stun dependant on the pet being alive, making it to the target and firing the skill (same deal with the silence). The WL gets a toughness boost if they use that stance, but no one in their right mind would use it and give up pack hunting. Dead pet = no utility. It takes 2 seconds to summon and costs 45AP before you even use any skills, get knocked off your mount you might as well give up unless you specced loner for the ride.

Lasting as long as 2H tanks? What!? I mean apart from the fact we are med armor, typically run with 200-250 toughness, have less parry than a mara for example AND have none of the skills a tank has just how badly would someone need to spec a tank to have the crap survivability of a WL?

[Marsares]

Regardless, a WL can spec...


http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=19#7:160:13:8232:0:0:25:9212:9204:9 210:9198

They get:

Pounce
50% decreased auto attack speed
A single target disorient
An outgoing healing debuff
Tearing Blade, which is a huge DPS increase.
50% more crit damage for player + lion

I.e. they are for more mobile, do more damage, and have better utility then a Brutality marauder.

You are aware that Pack Synergy requires a pet to be active, yet you don't spend any points in Guardian. Therefore, your pet will not only die very quickly, it is also utterly useless. As such, that tactic won't do anything for the most time.

[Drexciyian]

Marauder with pure raw dps and burst + AOE knockback, finisher, 50% perma armor ignoring, a single target and AOE disorient that both stack with themself.

here is the build:
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=14#0:0:9:680:9:672:25:8441:8442:843 5:8445

killing someone with this build is pretty easy, he wont last more than few seconds without being able to do something due to +2s build up time.

now show me a WL that can all those things.

I have both chars at R40 and can say that a marauder is definitely much better.


http://warhammermovies.com/movieview.php?id=1805 &
http://warhammermovies.com/movieview.php?id=1871
vs
http://files.filefront.com/WLavi/;13001113;/fileinfo.html
also



WL easy put out a ton more dmg than marauders on a single target, without disorients we'd be pretty useless.

When i rolled my marauder from a WL i was looking forward to stance dancing but in reallity it doesnt work as you have tactics and abilites that only work with one mutation


Give us a single target knock down and a charge thats like pounce+ let us hit at many times a second as a WL can then you can take our disorientates

[CptCosmic]

pounce only work if you have a target and only if your target does not move cause you land where he was, not were he is. also pounce does nothing for you to get a squishy cause you will get focus fired and killed under 5 seconds like you would when walking ther; every moron can see a WL flying above their heads. pounce is more a utility/fun tool against KB or to quickly jump a WE attacking one of your healers.

[Ghostwind]

Without any knowledge about the classes and their skills I'll state my opinion as is my right on internet forums. :cool:

White Lion seems a hell of lot better than Marauder.

WLs fly around the battlefield killing left and right. Marauders stand in one spot trying to pull people...

[sbarra1x]

Is this all anecdotal evidence from someone who doesn't appear to play the class?

Actually I have a rank 40 marauder and a rank 38 WL.

Ok so my WL s not rank 40 yet but he is close to it, and I have made more than enough progression into the game to know the class very well, and also having the advantage of being able to make comparisons between him and my Marauder I can draw easily enough “anecdotal evidence” to know what I am talking about.

To be perfectly honest, anyone that plays guardian more or less gives up any burst damage ability. Axeman is the damage tree FYI.

Ok well judging by this claim it seems to me that perhaps its actually you yourself that has never played a WL before?

If you had then you would know for a fact that a deep Guardian build actually has higher burst damage potential than Axeman. Its more situational and not as consistent, but it is most definitely there.

By all means follow the ol' cookie cutter axeman-loner speck, most people do, but don’t refute the fact that with guardian you not only gain much greater survivability but also retain some very high burst damage, and we all know that more permanence also equals out to more damage overall and a far greater impact of the battlefield.

And anyway, even despite all of this the thread is a comparison between WLs and Maras, not about which WL builds are most efficient, and thus as I was saying a Guardian WL actually has more burst potential than a brute Mara with equal gear, and an incredible amount more survivability.

With regard to utility Guardian gives you a stun dependant on the pet being alive, making it to the target and firing the skill (same deal with the silence).

Ok well that’s not really a huge drawback, with speed training slotted your pet isn’t exactly waddling along, simply send your pet to your target, pounce, and execute.

The WL gets a toughness boost if they use that stance, but no one in their right mind would use it and give up pack hunting.

Well as you should know when talking about the vastly superior survivability I was referring to the Guardian speck, and if you do not use TTK as with a build revolving around that tree then I feel you may be lacking in the IQ department.
Even if you decide to focus on the other two trees, no matter what, you will always have greater survivability than a Mara.

Dead pet = no utility. It takes 2 seconds to summon and costs 45AP before you even use any skills, get knocked off your mount you might as well give up unless you specced loner for the ride.

Well you can’t expect to have an almost entirely more efficient class for its defined role (melee brawler) and not have any drawbacks. That would simply be ludicrous. (apart form the fact that loner - Axeman speck is pretty much exactly that; more efficient with no drawbacks, but that is only one build, not the class itself, thus its not really anything to complain about)

Yes, you have to manage your pet, it’s the sacrifice you make for the greater benefits of the class as a whole.

Lasting as long as 2H tanks? What!? I mean apart from the fact we are med armor, typically run with 200-250 toughness, have less parry than a mara for example AND have none of the skills a tank has just how badly would someone need to spec a tank to have the crap survivability of a WL?

If you had read my post correctly then you would see that I specifically said guardian specked white lions can last practically as long as two handed tanks, which is indeed true.

No they do not last quite as long, and no they do not bring any of the benefits that tanks bring to the group, and you know why? Because they are not tanks, they are MDPS and in a form that is exactly what hey bring, high bursts of damage.

Overall what it boils down to is exactly what I had said in my previous post; WLs as a whole are a far more solid class. They bring more burst damage, more mobility, and more survivability, all by a considerable margin.

WLs utility is also very nice, however it is not quite up to par with that of a Marauder’s, though saying this, if a Mara is to obtain largely superior utility he has to sacrifice all of his burst damage, every last drop of it.

I am not trying to imply that WLs are too good, what I am interjecting however is that Marauders probably do need some tweaking to bring them up to par with their counterpart. I don’t want the classes to be exactly the same, I just want them to be equally viable.

[Drexciyian]

pounce only work if you have a target and only if your target does not move cause you land where he was, not were he is. also pounce does nothing for you to get a squishy cause you will get focus fired and killed under 5 seconds like you would when walking ther; every moron can see a WL flying above their heads. pounce is more a utility/fun tool against KB or to quickly jump a WE attacking one of your healers.

Ye but pounce can be used for alot more things than getting on a target ie got a bunch of melees on you it allows you to get out of trouble quick, you get pulled by a marauder, jump out of trouble. Besides most squishes stand still most of the time

[CptCosmic]

Ye but pounce can be used for alot more things than getting on a target ie got a bunch of melees on you it allows you to get out of trouble quick, you get pulled by a marauder, jump out of trouble. Besides most squishes stand still most of the time
actually it does not allow you to get out of trouble, you can only jump to an enemy. you can only jump to spots where you are better off but for sure not out of trouble and when you jump from a marauder pulling you with his hentai tentacles, you just get pulled again and killed by ranged dps.

[Thason]

You cant deny that pounce does make WL's very mobile, they can be where they are most needed on the battlefield quickly through pounce and take out key targets with fetch.

Pounce also offers some utility in escaping KB's (off a cliff or into the destro backlines), and it turns the tables on a tank who usesChampion's Challenge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=608) on you :p, etc.

On the other hand, marauders do decidedly more damage, and dont have a positional requirement on all but one of thier moves...

We pay for it by being a slow mutated monster, with two main ways to close a gap (Charge! (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=240) Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410), and charge is suicide in most circumstances, unless your chasing.

(double pouncing seems awesome, pounce to a tank or something in mid field, then wait a second, pounce to a healer/rdps in the back row. Seen this done in pvp video's to teriffying effect. WTB this skill :).

[Marsares]

Without any knowledge about the classes and their skills I'll state my opinion as is my right on internet forums. :cool:

White Lion seems a hell of lot better than Marauder.

WLs fly around the battlefield killing left and right. Marauders stand in one spot trying to pull people...

And yet Destro complains about WL's using Fetch non-stop. See the irony here? Don't blame the WL's for playing their class clearly better than those Mara's that you know... ;)

[Ghostwind]

And yet Destro complains about WL's using Fetch non-stop. See the irony here? Don't blame the WL's for playing their class clearly better than those Mara's that you know... ;)

Who is this Destro guy? I hear he complains a lot but I have never seen it. ;)

[Ntranced]

Ok well judging by this claim it seems to me that perhaps its actually you yourself that has never played a WL before?

If you had then you would know for a fact that a deep Guardian build actually has higher burst damage potential than Axeman. Its more situational and not as consistent, but it is most definitely there.

By all means follow the ol' cookie cutter axeman-loner speck, most people do, but don’t refute the fact that with guardian you not only gain much greater survivability but also retain some very high burst damage, and we all know that more permanence also equals out to more damage overall and a far greater impact of the battlefield.

Well as you should know when talking about the vastly superior survivability I was referring to the Guardian speck, and if you do not use TTK as with a build revolving around that tree then I feel you may be lacking in the IQ department.
Even if you decide to focus on the other two trees, no matter what, you will always have greater survivability than a Mara.

If you had read my post correctly then you would see that I specifically said guardian specked white lions can last practically as long as two handed tanks, which is indeed true.

Overall what it boils down to is exactly what I had said in my previous post; WLs as a whole are a far more solid class. They bring more burst damage, more mobility, and more survivability, all by a considerable margin.


I have 2 40 WLs on different servers, a 40 mara and a 40 SW. Your post was long so I quoted only the parts I wanted to address.

Where and when does the situational burst damage when Guardian specced happen? I spent a lot of time running guardian pre-40 and yeh it is an excellent build for PvE and questing (I will give you that) but PvP the only redeeming feature is the tactic on baiting strike. I also spent a LOT of time running different builds across all tress with a DPS meter and Guardian quite frankly isn't up the job.

Cookie cutter builds exist for a reason - they work. Wether you choose loner build or not any "situational" burst damage can be blown away by the consistency of pack hunting, brute force, tearing blade and one other of your choice (full grown is the most obvious, speed training if not or add any flavor of your choice). Taking axeman up to full grown is the only real way of getting any increased stats for your pet (debatable if that is "working as intended" right now or not).

I still can't see where the "greater survivability" of using guardian comes in and how it eclipses a mara, even considering that mostly this is a class comparison "overall" rather than how a class can be built. Sure you get maybe another 70 toughness with TTK (which you can get anyway right now albeit not that high a value). Gear aside you know that this really doesn't make a big difference and mara has a simpler way to add a much bigger lump of toughness?

Which really brings me back to baiting strike, great armor boost and the only thing worth taking guardian for which is the WL only clear and meaningful way (except when facing a WE ofc) to increase "survivability". But by doing so you lose most of the damage potential the WL was made for.

If survivability equates to more mobility sure you have pounce, which already stated multiple times means you can jump from one enemy to the next (or one group to the next in most cases). Pounce range isn't enough to get you far enough away from TE for a start - although you can use it escape the pull sometimes by jumping out of the mara reach. Nor is it likely you can escape a rift (I've never managed it unless I was targetting another enemy 60 ft away to begin with that is still in range, except if there was no class there to AoE disable, root or KD).

In fact the best way to escape a rift is to feline grace and charge (if you are lucky you got rooted and not KD or disabled). This also has the benefit of not having to try and TAB to an enemy outside the rift zone (near impossible) or find and click an enemy manually (you might be lucky).

So I'm happy you enjoy your build, as I enjoy mine (I don't play the same builds on both WLs for example) but really I still don't see where you get the "WL has greater survivability" from and I guess I never will.

[sbarra1x]

Where and when does the situational burst damage when Guardian specced happen? I spent a lot of time running guardian pre-40 and yeh it is an excellent build for PvE and questing (I will give you that) but PvP the only redeeming feature is the tactic on baiting strike.

Popping Force Opportunity and Leonine Frenzy alone can provide some pretty significant damage, combine the two with Brutal pounce, pack assault, and throat bite and you can indeed hit some very nice numbers in a small space of time.
Try this combo with pack synergy slotted and with a lucky chain of crits (which is very common) your looking at pretty huge burst overall, more so than any other WL speck can achieve.

Then, on top of that coordinate your attack so that at least one other team mate is on the target, and thanks to pack synergy in conjunction with your own abilities anything with medium armour or below is going down extremely fast.

Of course this burst damage, as previously stated, is far more situational than that of other specks, but its still there, and it is most definitely a lot higher than anything a Marauder could ever achieve.

With the added survivability on top of this guardian as a whole has a lot more to offer than just the baiting strike tactic.

I also spent a LOT of time running different builds across all tress with a DPS meter and Guardian quite frankly isn't up the job.

Well of course your overall damage per second is not going to be as high as other WL builds, you shouldn’t be able to have it all in one tree, but your actual burst damage itself (which is mostly all that matters in pvp/rvr) is still on par, and more to the point of the topic, it is still higher than what a Mara can push out.

Cookie cutter builds exist for a reason - they work. Wether you choose loner build or not any "situational" burst damage can be blown away by the consistency of pack hunting, brute force, tearing blade and one other of your choice (full grown is the most obvious, speed training if not or add any flavor of your choice). Taking axeman up to full grown is the only real way of getting any increased stats for your pet (debatable if that is "working as intended" right now or not).

Well of course Cookie cutter builds work, I wasn’t disputing that.

The loner - Axeman speck is very viable and extremely effective, much more so than the Marauders Brutality build, which is what I was initially getting at.

What I am saying is that the WLs most survivable build (Guardian) is actually better than Brutality for damage as well, while retaining far greater survivability than a Mara could ever dream of, but somehow that turned into a guardian vs. Axeman debate rather than a guardian vs. Brutality debate.

Anyways, saying that “Situational burst” is blown away by the effectiveness of the Axeman build and its overall great consistency is frankly a bit one sided, as the guardian build has a lot more to offer than just burst - it has greater survivability as I’m sure I have mentioned enough times now, which allows you to make a much larger impact on the outcome of the battle because of the sheer longevity it provides; a dead WL = no dps at all, and considering you don’t actually sacrifice enough burst damage to hinder you from wiping the floor with any squishy that you set your sights upon you really make no sacrifice other than having to manage your pet. You also, unlike the loner build, have access to fetch, which is absolutely amazing if used correctly.

Basically you can kill many more enemies as a Guardian WL before you are killed by the opposition in comparison to an Axeman/Hunter WL, and Brut Marauder. This is a huge advantage in the great scheme of things.

I still can't see where the "greater survivability" of using guardian comes in and how it eclipses a mara, even considering that mostly this is a class comparison "overall" rather than how a class can be built. Sure you get maybe another 70 toughness with TTK (which you can get anyway right now albeit not that high a value). Gear aside you know that this really doesn't make a big difference and mara has a simpler way to add a much bigger lump of toughness?
Which really brings me back to baiting strike, great armor boost and the only thing worth taking guardian for which is the WL only clear and meaningful way (except when facing a WE ofc) to increase "survivability". But by doing so you lose most of the damage potential the WL was made for.

Its really very simple.

White lions are generally built more defensively than Marauders.
They naturally have more wounds, toughness and initiative as a base amount, and when you add gear on top of this they can without a doubt take more of a beating.

However, this is not the only reason I say this.
As a marauder, to even get close to the damage potential of a white lion you have to speck specifically down the brutality line, which is the weakest mutation when it comes to the defensive stats that it grants you.

On top of this you will then have to slot the Feeding on fear tactic, which greatly increases your chance to be critically hit, and being a marauder you already have some of the lowest initiative in the game, thus taking this tactic hurts you severely, and yes it is imperative if you want to live up to your role.

Already because of these drawbacks your survivability is a lot less than that of a WLs, and then we get to the issue of builds.

As we have already established The hunter line and the Axeman line already do a rather considerable amount more damage than brutality in terms of burst and consistency, therefore killing your opponent faster and thus taking less damage overall. Also a WL specialised in either of these builds will retain his survivability as a whole, whereas the Marauder actually looses a chunk of his.

Then of course we come to the Guardian build…(Who saw that coming?:rolleyes:) -

As previously stated this build offers even greater survivability than Hunter and
Axeman, and therefore a very considerable amount more than the Marauders brut line.

As a Guardian WL you also do not have to stack nearly as much str and can focus a lot more on toughness, wounds and initiative without actually denting your damage output by a truly noticeable amount, thus further increasing your endurance and effectiveness.

Basically the main points that I have been trying to make are -

A White lion of any build will outlive a Marauder of any build

He/she will out damage a marauder of any build.

He/she is vastly more mobile than a Marauder of any build.

That’s pretty much it.

Marauders still have superior utility which is great, but I don't think that it really warrants all of the other shortcomings.

I’m not saying that this is wrong or that White Lions should be nerfed, not by a long shot, what I am saying however is that Marauders should probably be tweaked so that they are just as effective as White lions.

I’m not really one to post about my opinion on things like this, but I saw this thread and it reminded me of how much I want to play on my Mara, but having a white lion also and seeing how much more solid they are overall I just feel too gimped when I log in on him.

[kayeffem]

Not sure if I missed this already, but sbarra1x, have you played either a white lion or marauder? Cause from reading your last post it seems you're not quite grasping the full extent of marauder/wl abilities.

[sbarra1x]

Not sure if I missed this already, but sbarra1x, have you played either a white lion or marauder? Cause from reading your last post it seems you're not quite grasping the full extent of marauder/wl abilities.

Would you care to elaborate on this?

I know my post was pretty rushed out but I am fairly sure that my points are valid.
I have a rank 40 mara and a rank 38 WL to answer your question.

[Ntranced]

White lions are generally built more defensively than Marauders. They naturally have more wounds, toughness and initiative as a base amount, and when you add gear on top of this they can without a doubt take more of a beating.

However, this is not the only reason I say this.
As a marauder, to even get close to the damage potential of a white lion you have to speck specifically down the brutality line, which is the weakest mutation when it comes to the defensive stats that it grants you.

Already because of these drawbacks your survivability is a lot less than that of a WLs, and then we get to the issue of builds.

Then of course we come to the Guardian build…(Who saw that coming?:rolleyes:) -

As a Guardian WL you also do not have to stack nearly as much str and can focus a lot more on toughness, wounds and initiative without actually denting your damage output by a truly noticeable amount, thus further increasing your endurance and effectiveness.

Basically the main points that I have been trying to make are -

A White lion of any build will outlive a Marauder of any build

He/she will out damage a marauder of any build.

He/she is vastly more mobile than a Marauder of any build.

That’s pretty much it.

I let the account with my mara lapse so i cant login and check it effectively but I'm 99.99% certain Mara and WL base stats for toughness, wounds, init etc are pretty much even - and mara has +10 parry. Ok so the WL can use Guardian stance and gain probably 70 toughness, but then the Mara can slot a tactic for 160 toughness (I forget the exact number). Maybe someone else can do a comparison at 40 for WL/Mara on tough/str/wounds/ini without gear, tactics, RR points etc?

From memory (again, speculation) I remember a lot more toughness stats on gear for a Mara as well (lots for WL sub 30ish when it is useful mind you). Even so, 70 toughness isn't adding a whole load of reduced DPS.

Without debating the merits of the guardian tree again I'd agree that a dead WL means no DPS. But a dead lion (much easier to kill without even targetting it with all the AoE) also means there goes 30% of your DPS. And so does your pack synergy tactic straight away.

And I STILL don't get how Guardian spec equals more chance to survive, unless you are pinning all your hopes on that +70 toughness. But anyway, side issue...

[LeoricMonolith]

Guardian will give you slightly higher survivability if you're using trained to kill for the toughness, and baited trap for some armor and a little disrupt. The thing is, I don't know if white lions have higher base stats. I do know that monstrosity marauders can use a tactic to give themselves 160 extra toughness, and that they have a 20sec ability that at 40 monstro gives them 200 str and 200 toughness for 15 ap. This certainly helps them do their job, and at least for the initial charge it would mean a marauder has 360 more toughness than me. Pounce is great, no doubt about it, but pounce doesn't help us hold the front line. Pounce might let me escape from the back lines or get me there, but it doesn't help my squishies, it doesn't disrupt the enemy front lines, and it usually ends up with me getting focus fired down in seconds. I think that in team based orvr (the part of the game that matters the most) the marauder is clearly superior. I'll grant that the marauder single target dps line needs help though.

[Ntranced]

I would agree with all of your post LeoricMonolith. 70 toughness and baiting strike just doesn't equal "more survivability" for me though. Now if it was something like SW skirmish stance with double armor THAT would be different.

Playing a mara I would happily charge the front lines with the BOs and Chosen almost as a light tank especially with AoE disorientate. I would rarely do that playing my WL unless the tanks were holding the line :)

WL vs Mara 1vs1 is often a very close fight, I just don't see a big difference in base stats from what I can remember. I still think of my WLs as a glass cannon in reality, albeit not so much of a glass cannon as a WE for example :)

[Farshatok]

I would agree with all of your post LeoricMonolith. 70 toughness and baiting strike just doesn't equal "more survivability" for me though. Now if it was something like SW skirmish stance with double armor THAT would be different.

Playing a mara I would happily charge the front lines with the BOs and Chosen almost as a light tank especially with AoE disorientate. I would rarely do that playing my WL unless the tanks were holding the line :)

WL vs Mara 1vs1 is often a very close fight, I just don't see a big difference in base stats from what I can remember. I still think of my WLs as a glass cannon in reality, albeit not so much of a glass cannon as a WE for example :)

You can see the base stat difference here:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75508

[Marsares]

Who is this Destro guy? I hear he complains a lot but I have never seen it. ;)

Ah, sorry for that. You probably missed the zillion "Nerf Fetch!" posts as they got lost in between the other gazillion "Nerf X!" threads that Destro is posting. ;)

/tease off

[sbarra1x]

Without debating the merits of the guardian tree again I'd agree that a dead WL means no DPS. But a dead lion (much easier to kill without even targetting it with all the AoE) also means there goes 30% of your DPS. And so does your pack synergy tactic straight away.


I agree on the issue of how easy it is to kill your war lion.

The problem with this however is that if mythic upped its survivability too much they could risk trivialising solo pve content, which of course isn’t a top priority issue, but it would surely damage the dynamics of the game.

I’m sure however that mythic can come to an equilibrium where your pet is not as much of a hassle to maintain, but not too hardy for its own good either, because as it stands the only real way to help boost its survivability is to speck and slot Furious mending, which doesn’t really solve the issue of focus fire at all.

Though your not alone in this.
Squig herders have the exact same problem and its bound to be addressed eventually.

Guardian will give you slightly higher survivability if you're using trained to kill for the toughness, and baited trap for some armor and a little disrupt. The thing is, I don't know if white lions have higher base stats. I do know that monstrosity marauders can use a tactic to give themselves 160 extra toughness, and that they have a 20sec ability that at 40 monstro gives them 200 str and 200 toughness for 15 ap. This certainly helps them do their job, and at least for the initial charge it would mean a marauder has 360 more toughness than me.

Aye ferocious assault is a nice ability, and with it once every minute you can actually feel like a bit of a brawler, though as it stands with a passive 30 or so % chance to be critically hit in conjunction with an extra 10% from the feeding on fear tactic, which as I said earlier is pretty much imperative, it really doesn’t make up for a whole lot.

As for the Hulking brute tactic (160 toughness for mons), I agree, its very nice for a Monstrosity Marauder but even with it they still fall short, and this tactic is only applicable to that particular mutation and thus only effectively useful when specialising down that particular line.

Being a Mons marauder you are in the heat of enemy fire almost 100% of the time as you are not playing a Hit n’ run type role but more so a “thorn in the enemies backside” one via wearing them down slowly with AoE, negating HoTs and disrupting the enemy, thus this specific tactic should be mandatory and probably a passive buff with the Mons mutation, as opposed to having to spend mastery points on it and use up a tactic slot.

Pounce is great, no doubt about it, but pounce doesn't help us hold the front line. Pounce might let me escape from the back lines or get me there, but it doesn't help my squishies, it doesn't disrupt the enemy front lines, and it usually ends up with me getting focus fired down in seconds.

Indeed pounce is an incredibly useful ability for any MDPS, I think we all can agree on that.

It can be used both offensively and defensively which is one of the key reasons why I like it so much.

No its not as good as it sounds on paper but if used correctly you can traverse large groups of opponents, negating slowing effects that would other wise have kept you snared in a sea of attacks, and navigate your way through crowds to safety.

However saying this it doesn’t always work out that well, and on occasions, depending on your own teams composition and that of the enemies, you will still be easily focused, and easily killed.

Looking at the full picture though, pounce itself can definitely provide some nice offensive and defensive additions to the WL class, though I wouldn’t ever want to see Marauders with a similar ability as class mirrors should never become carbon copies of each other.

I think that in team based orvr (the part of the game that matters the most) the marauder is clearly superior. I'll grant that the marauder single target dps line needs help though.

Well I guess it just comes to down to a matter of opinion.

With the current state of things, in my eyes the Monstrosity tree Is he only truly viable line that marauders have.

Savagery sacrifices way to much damage for a small array of group utility that many other classes can already mimic, all of which bringing other unique roles to the table in conjunction with their debuffs, something that sav simply lacks.

Brutality brings the lowest physical damage of any MDPS class in the game, and also low survivability, with no other practical benefits to make up for it.

I would agree with all of your post LeoricMonolith. 70 toughness and baiting strike just doesn't equal "more survivability" for me though. Now if it was something like SW skirmish stance with double armor THAT would be different.

You really shouldn’t overlook the boost that baiting strike can provide.
I cannot remember the exact numbers as I have not played on my WL for a while, but from what I recall it almost doubles your armour mitigation. (may be inaccurate, but even so I remember it to be a very considerable boost over my Maras survivability.)

You can also slot furious mending, though its not really necessary, but form what I can remember before I reset my mastery tree it was ticking for around 150-200 or so every 5 seconds, which in open rvr actually made a pretty solid impact.

The main asset to a Guardians defence though (besides baiting strike and TTK) is the fact that you have a higher threshold for being able to stack defensive stats before it starts to effect your offence in any way.

Overall WL’s are just more solid all-round, with less bugs and broken abilities and more than one viable tree the class itself is just more appealing and better at its defined job.

[Kirtooz]

If WL gets buffed even more I will quit this game.

[Ntranced]

So coming back to base stats (at level 40, no gear or renown points etc) we have this:

WL : Mara

Strength

197 227

Toughness

148 148

Initiative

172 123

Wounds

518 518


The only differences of any note are Initiative (in the WLs favour) and Strength (in the Maras favour - a surprise there and if I would want either stats in my favour it would be strength). Both clases also get tactic to increase strength but again the Mara has tactic to increase both strength and Init OR WS and Strength by 160 as well but iirc you would have to sacrifice the 160 toughness stat I will come on to shortly. The base Init stat I would also consider fairly trivial in reality as Mara gets +10 parry anyway.

Both classes have the ability to add additional toughness (40-70 range for WL and 160 for Mara) albeit using them also limit somewhat other options available to both classes.

So if we build in the toughness stats available through stance/tactics or whatever before gear you would come out to:

WL - 218 : Mara - 308

This stat based on +40 Tou for WL and to run it would mean giving up pack hunting, arguable one of the best tactics in the game (+50% autoattack increase). I assume though running it would also limit the Mara and players who have played it more recently than I have can state what this might gimp in the "must have" list for a Mara.

I don't even run at 308 toughness in TTK with full Anni and some toughness stats on my rings, I would think 80% of WLs are in the same situation.

Set bonuses on armor (take Anni as the most commonly available) are pretty similar and a full set of Anni on both classes adds 35 Toughness. Add in that both have equal access to Talis etc to augment any armor but that at least on the Mara from my own experience toughness stats are easier to obtain on blues and purples including RvR inf gear.

I could go on to look at other skills mentioned above (baited trap, furious mending etc) that require 8 - 11 points in the least used and (arguably) the worst skill tree avaialble for a WL. I could also argue that even in guardian the pet dies so often that instead of being down 20-25% of your DPS output while in that stance you are down 25-30% instead but I won't (much :)) as it isn't really relevant. I also havent touched on Mara skills such as ferocious assault, corruption, touch of rot etc.

I may have missed something but based on this how exactly does the WL have better survivability?

[LeoricMonolith]

If WL gets buffed even more I will quit this game.

I guess it's a good thing you're not facing marauders then, you would've been gone a long time ago.

[LeoricMonolith]

Aye ferocious assault is a nice ability, and with it once every minute you can actually feel like a bit of a brawler, though as it stands with a passive 30 or so % chance to be critically hit in conjunction with an extra 10% from the feeding on fear tactic, which as I said earlier is pretty much imperative, it really doesn’t make up for a whole lot.

As for the Hulking brute tactic (160 toughness for mons), I agree, its very nice for a Monstrosity Marauder but even with it they still fall short, and this tactic is only applicable to that particular mutation and thus only effectively useful when specialising down that particular line.

Being a Mons marauder you are in the heat of enemy fire almost 100% of the time as you are not playing a Hit n’ run type role but more so a “thorn in the enemies backside” one via wearing them down slowly with AoE, negating HoTs and disrupting the enemy, thus this specific tactic should be mandatory and probably a passive buff with the Mons mutation, as opposed to having to spend mastery points on it and use up a tactic slot.


Right and 1 of these roles is useful in large scale orvr the other is not. Hit and run in a 72 on 72 fight means squat, I pounce in I'm stunned disoriented and dead. If you're talking scenarios yeah 12 on 12 I'd take a white lion over a marauder (I'd take a we over a white lion though) but in large scale orvr, the marauder is the best mdps class. I can think of few situations out in an rvr lake where I'd take a white lion over a marauder. I guess if our warcamp is being camped, I might take the white lion, otherwise, marauder hands down. We on order don't need a hit n run type role, we have the witch hunter, we need a front liner to hold the line with our tanks. Destro already has a huge numbers advantage in front line classes, and the fact that the white lion is a hit n' run role rather than a front liner exacerbates this problem.

A typical order front line will have knights, ironbreakers, and swordmasters (not many of these left.) A typical destro front line will have marauders, black orcs, chosen, and blackguards. Destro has aoe disorients on 3 of these classes, 1 of which is persistent until the tank class that has it is killed. This is a big problem, because chosen, black orcs, and marauders are quite popular compared to their order counterparts.

I agree with you that savagery and brutality need to be looked at, I also think hunter and guardian need to be looked at. Guardian is not a viable orvr spec, the pet dies too fast in any large scale encounter, and mythic can't buff the pet because that would make fetch more powerful than it already is. Hunter is plagued by a lack of utility compared to monstro, and reliance on the pet for some abilities means that it suffers from the same problem guardian has, the pet is too weak.

[sbarra1x]

Ok well judging by your previous post Ntranced you really haven’t taken in very much of what I have been saying.

I have already made it clear enough on how the WL is both more defensive and offensive, and in fact I have had to repeat several points various different times.

After looking at the chart that Farshatok posted I can agree that I was a bit off about the base stats of both classes, although the WL still indeed comes off more defensively with a very considerable 8% less chance to be crit, thus my point still remains, and I was still accurate in my statement, though the difference in base stats alone wasn’t quite as potent as I had perceived.

Overall the main thing that I have been saying in my posts is that the WL is both more offensive, defensive, and mobile, which very literally is a fact so I really don’t see why you are trying to dispute it.

Almost every comparison that I have been making was distinctively between Brutality Marauders and guardian White Lions.

This is because Guardian is better than brutality at its defined job in practically every way, with brutality being a Marauders most damaging line, and guardian being the White Lions most defensive line (though still having burst damage on par with other WL builds, and greater than any marauder build.)

Guardian can live a hell of a lot longer than brutality under enemy fire, its easier to heal and is generally far more durable, it has more ways to escape from tough situations, can stay on its target almost indefinitely, and can dispatch its target just as fast on average, and potentially a lot faster given some lucky crits.

Most of your points made about a Marauders survivability have been based around either monstrosity, which should actually have a fair amount more than it does currently imho, and savagery, one of the most conked out, flawed mastery lines in the entire game.

Like I stated a couple of times previously the WL is just a far more solid class overall, having far less bugs, three viable trees instead of just one, and is generally a better thought out class as a whole, with evidently a lot more polish and attention put into the process of its creation.

Brutality needs to be made into a proper melee dps class, instead of just straggling along with the lowest damage production of every MDPS class in the game, and no other effective benefits to make up for it.

Savagery needs to be given an actual role.

As it stands all of their valuable debuffs can be replicated by other classes that also provide additional roles.

Hell even two handed specked tanks perform more dps and burst damage than a savagery marauder, and can each do a variety of other useful things, and are incredibly more durable.

Savagery marauders just aren’t effective at all and this desperately needs to change.

As for monstrosity marauders, like I have said many times before, they are actually pretty decent.

They provide a nifty AoE debuff and an AoE knockdown which can really mess things up for an unorganised team, but these are pretty much the only useful things that they bring to the group other than the witling down of their adversaries with small, wide spread damage, helping to put a bit of pressure on healers and perhaps negate a bit of group-wide healing.

Monstrosity marauders are good, yes, but marauders as a whole are far form it, unlike their counterpart.

Right and 1 of these roles is useful in large scale orvr the other is not. Hit and run in a 72 on 72 fight means squat, I pounce in I'm stunned disoriented and dead. If you're talking scenarios yeah 12 on 12 I'd take a white lion over a marauder (I'd take a we over a white lion though) but in large scale orvr, the marauder is the best mdps class. I can think of few situations out in an rvr lake where I'd take a white lion over a marauder. I guess if our warcamp is being camped, I might take the white lion, otherwise, marauder hands down. .

This is one of my main points when referring to the brutality marauder; he is absolutely useless for his defined role.

The typical scenario for me as a mara is to Let the tanks charge in and mess things up a bit, get all the attention shifted to their direction so that I can swoop in initially unnoticed, initiate my attack, get rooted, break roots, get rooted again instantly after, and die.

At least as a white Lion you can become immune to all root and snare effects after you break them as opposed to getting instantly locked down again like a mara, and with the added benefit of pounce to keep on your targets back + considerably higher burst damage, more times than not you are able to get off your kill before you are disposed of. This is literally next to impossibly as a marauder.

Also, performing better in smaller scale battles the WL is just more efficient all-round with the current state of things.

Marauders do however have the option of going down the monstrosity line, which is most definitely better than brutality, but all your really good for is your AoE disorient and AoE knockdown (which of course are great abilities to have) but aside from that your damage will only put a bit of pressure on any healers in the opposition, nothing more. (You will find that you still die very often as Mons as well as you are within perfect firing line of ranged classes, AoE, and at an arms reach form MDPS.)

We on order don't need a hit n run type role, we have the witch hunter, we need a front liner to hold the line with our tanks. Destro already has a huge numbers advantage in front line classes, and the fact that the white lion is a hit n' run role rather than a front liner exacerbates this problem. .

Order actually have some of the best front liners in the game in my opinion, and I’m sure you and many others would argue against this, but it is an entirely different topic so lets leave it at that.

If you want to be a truly effective front liner as a WL then all you need to do is focus down the path of the guardian. You’ll have greatly increased longevity and some pretty mean damage to boot.

However you will be at a disadvantage if people target your pet and kill it, but at least that would keep the enemy distracted, even if only for a few seconds, and actually having the option to be out there alongside the tanks consistently must be great.

The fact that you can choose to be either a front liner or an extremely effective Hit n’ run type class is just a testament to what I have been saying in my previous posts.

A typical order front line will have knights, ironbreakers, and swordmasters (not many of these left.) A typical destro front line will have marauders, black orcs, chosen, and blackguards. .

Well firstly this is biased in your favour as you have left out the WL from your formation yet included the clearly inferior marauder in the destructions assortment.

Not to mention that all of the classes in which you just mentioned are superior at their defined roles in comparison to the desto counterparts, but once again, excluding the WL and Mara, different topic.

Destro has aoe disorients on 3 of these classes, 1 of which is persistent until the tank class that has it is killed. This is a big problem, because chosen, black orcs, and marauders are quite popular compared to their order counterparts. .

Apples n’ Oranges.

Yes destro have some nice AoE disorients which are great and I’m not disputing that, but you can’t just take those abilities and say that they alone make Destructions overall team composition superior, there are just to many variables ranging across the board from every class in the game to take into consideration.

I agree with you that savagery and brutality need to be looked at, I also think hunter and guardian need to be looked at. Guardian is not a viable orvr spec, the pet dies too fast in any large scale encounter, and mythic can't buff the pet because that would make fetch more powerful than it already is. Hunter is plagued by a lack of utility compared to monstro, and reliance on the pet for some abilities means that it suffers from the same problem guardian has, the pet is too weak.

Aye as I have said previously I agree that White Lions are not perfect, and I especially agree on the Issue of pet viability, but form what I have experience playing both my Marauder and White Lion, you guys still come out on top in overall practicality, but yes, both classes are in need of some adjustments, I just feel that marauders should be top priority.

[LeoricMonolith]

I left the white lion out because the white lion is not a front line fighter, the white lion is more akin to a witch elf or witch hunter than a front line fighter. It's not bias it's role, marauders are front liners, white lions are hit n run. Yes I can pick abilities like aoe disorients, they aren't nice, they're game winners. When you stack 2 disorients on me I'm pretty much out of the fight, most of my dps is white damage, so white damage stops when you're using an ability while disoriented. You suggesting that white lions are somehow more viable in open rvr (the part of the game that matters most) outside of fetch botting is pretty silly, and suggesting that the marauder is an inferior front liner is silly, marauders are less survivable than tanks but they bring aoe cc, and aoe dps to a highly defensive tank front line. There's no comparison.

[Ntranced]

Ok well judging by your previous post Ntranced you really haven’t taken in very much of what I have been saying.

I have already made it clear enough on how the WL is both more defensive and offensive, and in fact I have had to repeat several points various different times.

I've taken it all in but there is nothing in your posts at all to back it up except your opinions - and now a statement that WL is clearly superior to Mara, which again is just your opinion. The facts and data on the other hand disgree with your opinion, and although I respect your right to put forward an opinion in a class balance discussion you really ought to be able to back it up.

For all I know you may well still be questing for levels in which case guardian spec is superb and doing the odd scenario in which case guardian spec is "ok" at best. For end game your spec is worthless for dungeons and - more importantly - oRvR. In both of those situations I'd take any other class before a guardian specced WL.

although the WL still indeed comes off more defensively with a very considerable 8% less chance to be crit, thus my point still remains, and I was still accurate in my statement, though the difference in base stats alone wasn’t quite as potent as I had perceived.

No it wasn't accurate, this is what you posted:

WLs have considerably higher survivability no matter how they speck, and if they choose to go down the path of the guardian then they are actually capable of lasting practically as long as 2H tanks, whist still retaining some very nice utility and some of the highest potential burst damage in the game.

Clearly WL does NOT have greater survivability no matter how they spec. I would take +10 parry over less chance to be crit. Or maybe you meant to say "WLs have considerably higher survivability no matter how they speck (sic) when put against a Mara that has chosen his specification in the dark and hasn't played the class before"?? That might have justified your point. Remember that Mara can increase Ini by 160 in 2 trees and if they choose the other tree they can increase toughness by 160.

Most of your points made about a Marauders survivability have been based around either monstrosity, which should actually have a fair amount more than it does currently imho, and savagery, one of the most conked out, flawed mastery lines in the entire game.

Actually I covered all trees for Mara rather than focusing on comparing apples and oranges (WL most defensive in Guardian and Maras most damaging - your definitions and not mine). I also acknowledged that there was one gimp tree on each class and that choosing certain options would limit other available options in a negative way.

Like I stated a couple of times previously the WL is just a far more solid class overall, having far less bugs, three viable trees instead of just one, and is generally a better thought out class as a whole, with evidently a lot more polish and attention put into the process of its creation.

Clearly a lot of opinion here again, despite the fact WL was the last class added and is widely considered to have been rushed and recieved no polish at all.

Lastly - in the survivability stakes at least - a Mara has a ton of debuffs, AoE disorientate, AoE KD and - lets not forget - the option of an additional 160 Ini or 160 toughness. There is simply no contest: Mara > WL in survivability (except in your opinion).

For someone who has played both classes I would expect a little bit more thought, reasoning and data than you can provide. I don't think you have explored the potential of either class at all.

[Ghostwind]

Lastly - in the survivability stakes at least - a Mara has a ton of debuffs, AoE disorientate, AoE KD and - lets not forget - the option of an additional 160 Ini or 160 toughness. There is simply no contest: Mara > WL in survivability (except in your opinion).

Mobility = survivability. As a sorc I have learnt this lesson. WLs teleporting around gives them a lot of survivability. Or does it?

[CptCosmic]

Mobility = survivability. As a sorc I have learnt this lesson. WLs teleporting around gives them a lot of survivability. Or does it?
nope, you can only jump on an enemy target thus you always put yourself in danger and flying around above peoples heads tends to tag you as the new primary target.

[Umilard]

nope, you can only jump on an enemy target thus you always put yourself in danger and flying around above peoples heads tends to tag you as the new primary target.

You are wrong here, ofc mobility=survivability. You can use pounce to jump back to the backline as long as their's an enemy around and you also have sprint+charge. The superb cc and toughnessbuffs etc from marauder also gives survivability ofc, what's best i'll leave to others to debate. People targetting you becouse you are a threat has NOTHING to do with survivability and the same bad argument is often used by WEs to justify their damageoutput.

That being said, personally i feel that comparing Marauders to WL is abit like comparing apples to pears. Sure, they are both MDPS and have some similarities but to me they are two very different classes. Marauders are good AoE dpsers with superb crowdcontrol while WL have great singletarget dps and mobility but limited cc.

[CptCosmic]

and what do you gain from jumping into their backline? usually NOTHING cause:
now every squishy is about to destroy you and you are out of your own healers range.

[kayeffem]

You can use pounce to jump back to the backline as long as their's an enemy around and you also have sprint+charge.

Great points and all true. However, you just pounced into the back lines of a destro group, which player do you think just became the top priority target? That's right! It's the crazy white lion who thinks he's invincible. Now onto the sprint+charge/pounce combo to get out. This works great in theory however there's a problem with this. The first thing that's going to happen is the wl is going to get rooted. This means that sprint, charge, and pounce cant be used. So the wl will now pop it's root break (assuming it's up) and hit charge. Once charge is activated you're now hit with snare/knockdown from the melee classes that just turned around to kill you. If you're snared you have the option of pounce but you need to have a target. Let's say you find a target and pounce to it. Charge has now stopped working (it stops with the first ability used) and you're snared on top of some tanks. Now the entire back line of ranged dps is still on you doing damage the entire time. You may or may not make it back alive. You can guess the result if you're knocked down behind enemy lines I hope.

This is a pretty typical description of what happens when a white lion will pounce into the back lines of destro. During this time you've not exactly done a whole ton of damage, but you did provide a 10 second distraction to the healers. Just because you have pounce doesnt mean you should/can use it. While mobility helps survivability, it doesnt always mean it will keep you alive.

[sbarra1x]

I've taken it all in but there is nothing in your posts at all to back it up except your opinions - and now a statement that WL is clearly superior to Mara, which again is just your opinion. The facts and data on the other hand disgree with your opinion, and although I respect your right to put forward an opinion in a class balance discussion you really ought to be able to back it up..

Ok well firstly you haven’t posted any solid substantiation to actually disprove what I have been saying what so ever, in fact the only information that you have put forth has been entirely irrelevant form my main points excluding the snippet about a White Lion’s base stats in comparison to those of the Marauder, which only further backed up my claims not refute them, so try not be a complete hypocrite and actually post some real data to back up yours.

Secondly I don’t see any merit in providing evidence merely because of the fact that what I have been talking about is based solely around the mechanics of the White Lion in conjunction with its defined role, in contrast to the mechanics of the Marauder and its defined role.

Why would I waste time attempting to prove that the technicalities in question actually exist when it very literally is an undisputable fact? There simply is no logic in that.

For all I know you may well still be questing for levels in which case guardian spec is superb and doing the odd scenario in which case guardian spec is "ok" at best. For end game your spec is worthless for dungeons and - more importantly - oRvR. In both of those situations I'd take any other class before a guardian specced WL..

Well what you have failed to realise time and time again now is that I have been specifically comparing the Guardian speck to the marauders Brutality speck, articulating how superior it is in every way, and considering how worthless and ineffective you think it to be compared to the other White Lion builds, and also every other class, well that honestly is more so a testament to what I have been saying in my past threads than anything else.

So, thank you for agreeing with me and confirming what I have been saying, even if it was inadvertently, the point still stands.

No it wasn't accurate, this is what you posted:.

Hmmm, you appear to have quoted the wrong piece of text there.

As you can very clearly see (well maybe not), in the first statement quoted I was talking about the base stats of both classes, referring to how I was still correct in claiming that the White Lions do in fact come off more defensively, the clip of text in which you attempted to disprove this with, though not entirely irrelevant from the topic, was not actually about the same specific issue, and not even from the same post.

Yes it mentions how White Lions have more survivability with any build, but it was not referring specifically to base stats alone. There are many more variables to take into account.

Clearly WL does NOT have greater survivability no matter how they spec. I would take +10 parry over less chance to be crit. Or maybe you meant to say "WLs have considerably higher survivability no matter how they speck (sic) when put against a Mara that has chosen his specification in the dark and hasn't played the class before"?? .

You seem to be rather confused here.

Just to clarify, I meant exactly what I had said.

That might have justified your point. Remember that Mara can increase Ini by 160 in 2 trees and if they choose the other tree they can increase toughness by 160. .

Ok so now your trying to refute my claim that White Lions have more longevity by bringing up very specific skills from two of the most conked out mastery lines in the entire game.

Everything I have said seems to have gone rite over your head.

Yes you can increase your initiative by 160 with savagery, but in order to get any use out of it you would have to specialise down the savagery line as the tactic itself is specific to that particular mutation.

Going down the savagery line will practically give you the worst melee dps out of every class that can wield a weapon and swing it, bar casters of course, and make you utterly redundant as there are already other classes that bring your debuffs to the group whilst still retaining an alternative role as well, unlike savagery.

Yes with brutality you can also get 160 initiative, but once again that tactic is specific to the Brutality mutation and therefore you would have to speck down that particular line to get any use out of it.

A brutality Marauder has the lowest dps and burst damage of any Melee dps class in the game, excluding savagery marauders as they are technically not sharing the role of MDPS.

They don’t have the needed survivability to make up for this lack of inherit damage and thus they are already greatly flawed.

You will actually find that Marauders die a lot more than Which elves and Which hunters at end game content.

Being a Brutality marauder it very literally is imperative that you slot the feeding on fear tactic in an attempt to get as close as possible to a respectable damage margin, thus already the 160 initiative that you had to spend mastery points on and waste a tactic slot on is already cancelled out. Yes, we have counter productive tactics.

Brutality is also the most impractical MDPS class in the game and in (insert any form of end game mass pvp here) they are pretty much useless, and I am not just saying that like most classes do, its literally true.

As for the 160 toughness form monstro? Well yes that’s great.

Being a tactic down our only truly viable mastery line it does indeed give us a boost to our survivability, in fact I have agreed on that every time it has been mentioned.

The only drawback is the fact that as a monstrosity marauder you are very consistently within the line of fire of all RDPS, most AoE, and are at a mere stretch from MDPS.

Because of the fact that you are always standing there spamming away you take far more damage in total than many other MDPS as to keep up your effectiveness you need to keep the pressure on at all times, otherwise the only thing your class becomes is a bot that whacks out the occasional AoE disorient/Knockdown and nothing more.

Therefore already we should be looking at more than just 160 toughness for the Monstro Mara, and we most definitely shouldn’t have to spend mastery points on it and use up a tactic slot.

Actually I covered all trees for Mara rather than focusing on comparing apples and oranges (WL most defensive in Guardian and Maras most damaging - your definitions and not mine)..

Indeed those are my definitions, why do you feel the need to relay this information to me?

The whole point in comparing those two trees was to show that the White Lions most defensive speck is also more offensive than the Marauders most offensive speck, while having a huge chunk of additional survivability and mobility over the mara.

Once again the point I was getting at has just gone entirely over your head.

I also acknowledged that there was one gimp tree on each class and that choosing certain options would limit other available options in a negative way.
Clearly a lot of opinion here again, despite the fact WL was the last class added and is widely considered to have been rushed and recieved no polish at all..

If you wish to go in depth about which class was the most rushed out then lets list a few bugs from each class and make a constructive comparison.

These are taken from my past experience with the Marauder class and also numerous different threads around the forum relating to this topic, so credits to the people providing this information ;

Tooltip for Mouth of Tzeentch reads 65 ft when the skill only has a range of 30 ft.
Mutating Release costs too much (45 Ap is brutal) and generally takes two hits to go off. it seems to delay a lot. It's also the weakest release ability in the game for mdps.
Bypass Defenses doesn't work.
When entering a scenario occasionally a player may have two stances on, allowing for use of both skill sets without having to change stances.
Tainted Claw will not increase duration (from 5 to 10 secs) when target is crippled, as it says in the tooltip.
Occasionally Demolition will "pause" between execution of the ability and it's actual trigger.
Tainted Claw used in conjunction with Deadly Clutch does not reduce healing.
Concussive Jolt will occasionally trigger, not knockdown enemies, and not cause damage.
Touch of Rot will trigger, but the cool down will not reset. Morale abilities, such as Force of Will, Sever Nerve, and others will not trigger for a few clicks, even if just auto-attacking.
Deeply Impaled will continue to stack on a target but will not increase crit rate.
Occasionally if an enemy player (not NPC) has their back to you, Terrible Embrace will say "Target is Retreating". Terrible Embrace is flighty on the height variation for enemy player pulls. The example given was "You cannot Embrace people up to you if your stood on the cliff overlooking the shipwreck in Serpents Passage, however you can pull people down from said cliff."
Relentless Assault will auto-flag players using it in PVE.
Relentless Assault will occasionally show "Periodically gaining 0 AP" instead of 10 AP.
Ferocious Assault will occasionally cancel out any other +STR buffs a player has.
Gut Ripper will not always make the next attack critical.
Corrupted Edge and Brute Force will occasionally cause strength to be lower than base, and ignore any +STR tactics or Mutations.
Subvert Strength - after critical hit there isn't any sign of +40 AP in either the combat log or AP bar.
When Corrupted Edge is a used tactic, it is possible to switch mutations and tactics, and still retain the buff from the original tactic.
Model/Texture bug: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...escarM_007.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/Reise/RakescarM_007.jpg) The graphical glitch only seems to appear when using the Brutality mutation.
When gaining a new mutation from the trainer the whole hotbar may blank out.
Touch of Instability's twirling graphic may not go away.
Convulsing Slashes: The animation plays over completely if the skill is interrupted.
Mutations have unfinished graphics resulting in small decals flying around the arm.
Occasionally when logging and zoning in, a mutation will bug back to the default "naked arm".
The skills available on your hot bar will stay usable, however the mutation graphic will disappear until you switch mutations.
Cloak heraldry disappears when switching mutations.
Skin/hair colour changes when mutating/changing gear/dying.
Mutations occasionally disappear when switching gear.
Since the Postern Door patch, some Marauders have reported not being able to enter friendly postern doors.
If enemy dies before some attack animations finish, character will start animation over and continue to attack thin air until the animation is complete, rather than resetting to neutral pose.
Reported with Convulsive Slashing, Guillotine, Rend, and Flail.
Touch of Instability's animation will stick after being used, and will continue to stack each time the ability is used until log out/zone in.
Concussive Jolt's animation will play regardless of whether or not the skill triggers.

I haven’t been playing on my Marauder for a while so some of the above may have been changed, but as far as I am aware a majority of them are still plaguing our class, and more to the point this isn’t even the sum of all our issues.

As you can probably see your not the only one playing a class “with no polish at all” and I am more than confident that the White Lion career suffers from far less issues than the Marauder.

Lastly - in the survivability stakes at least - a Mara has a ton of debuffs, AoE disorientate, AoE KD and - lets not forget - the option of an additional 160 Ini or 160 toughness. There is simply no contest: Mara > WL in survivability (except in your opinion)..

The marauder only has “a ton of debuffs” if they go down the savagery line, and as I have had to state to you now on countless different occasions you are sacrificing far too much for some utility that is very easily replicated by other classes with alternate roles.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of our utility is bugged, there honestly is no point at all going down the savagery line unless your team consists almost entirely of brutality/mons marauders and zealots/shamans.

Yes we have a talented AoE knock back that requires 6 mastery points, and an AoE disorient that requires 8 mastery points and a tactic slot, but believe it or not these are not intended to be the only things that marauders are good for.

For someone who has played both classes I would expect a little bit more thought, reasoning and data than you can provide..

For someone who has (apparently) played a White Lion I would expect you to have even the vaguest grasp on how it works and how truly good it is as a whole.

I also think that your being a bit of a hypocrite when mentioning thought, reasoning and data, but you can refer to the first part of my post about this.

I don't think you have explored the potential of either class at all.

I don’t think you have explored the potential of reading correctly.

All this time I have been talking about the great potential of the White Lion class and going into detail about effective it think it to be, thus claiming that I have not explored the potential of the class is extraordinarily ignorant and displays a complete lack understanding and competence.

When it comes down to it you haven’t actually refuted any of my points, in fact the only thing that you have achieved thus far is the fortification of some of most of them.

The amount of times I have had to repeat myself to you now is just getting a bit silly, you simply keep asking the same questions over and over which of course require the same answers.

I have tried to word things differently each time trying to find a suitable format for your mind to process the information but nothing seems to be working.

All of my points still remain -

The WL is a more complete class than the Marauder, it is more capable, it has more survivability, more mobility, better synergy with its team mates, better damage across the board, three viable trees, and still some very nice utility on top of that.


The marauder on the other hand has superior utility if they speck for an AoE disorient and an AoE knock back, or if they choose to go down the path of savagery and become a debuff bot that simply replicates the debuffs of other, more effective classes.

They also have one properly viable tree out of three, which of course still has its issues, but at least its worthy of a spot in sieges ect.

[Foofmonger]

I left the white lion out because the white lion is not a front line fighter, the white lion is more akin to a witch elf or witch hunter than a front line fighter. It's not bias it's role, marauders are front liners, white lions are hit n run.


This is not true. The Marauder is no less of a hit and run fighter then the WL, and the WL is no less a front line fighter then a Marauder.


Yes I can pick abilities like aoe disorients, they aren't nice, they're game winners.


No, they aren't. It lasts 50% of the time, maximum, can be blocked/parried, and requires a tactic slot and a specific mutation. I use it all the time, and I still get faceplanted in the dirt. Getting an AoE disorient doesn't automatically make you awesome at the frontlines.


When you stack 2 disorients on me I'm pretty much out of the fight, most of my dps is white damage, so white damage stops when you're using an ability while disoriented.


Again, you can also put one on the marauder. The 2 disorients can't be kept up 100% of the time either, nor do they effect the pet. Nor is the game balanced for 1vs1 fights. Regardless, a good WL still has a damn good chance of beating a Marauder 1 on 1.


You suggesting that white lions are somehow more viable in open rvr (the part of the game that matters most) outside of fetch botting is pretty silly, and suggesting that the marauder is an inferior front liner is silly, marauders are less survivable than tanks but they bring aoe cc, and aoe dps to a highly defensive tank front line. There's no comparison.

WLs and Marauders are both plenty viable. You can't make all these assumptions based on 1 marauder spec like every marauder is Monstro spec. They aren't. Nor do some people find low consistent AoE damage (outside of Broad Swings), to be very fun.

Now, I've advocated the Hunter WL path get SB to be like Demo for a long time, which would fix the issue here: The WL has no spammable AoE attack. Otherwise, its just gravy, a single AoE KD and a single AoE disorient do not make or break a class.

Regardless of this, lets look at the AoE mastery paths of these two classes, and the comparable positions of said abilities.

The Marauder AoE KD is in the same spot WLs get Pounce. This is why you don't get an AoE KD, because you get the best mobility increasing ability in the entire game. Pounce is an amazing ability, with a ton of applications, not just "jumping into the Destro backline." You can use it either offensively or defensively, and it is an amazing tool.

The Marauder AoE disorient tactic is in the same spot WLs get Pack Hunting. Pack Hunting is a ridiculously good tactic for increasing DPS, as most WLs know. Would you really be willing to give it up for an AoE disorient that lasted 5 seconds on a 10 second CD? I'm sure you say you would, but as soon as you noticed the huge loss in DPS, you would probably want it immediately back.

Now WLs do need some lovin, this is for sure, but so do Marauders (and I suggest moving the ST disorient out of the AoE path into Brutality, to balance the stacking).

[Ntranced]

so try not be a complete hypocrite and actually post some real data to back up yours.

I've posted raw stat data, specific skills, tactics, stances while you just refer to what you "think" every time without justification.

Secondly I don’t see any merit in providing evidence

I've noticed.

Why would I waste time attempting to prove that the technicalities in question actually exist when it very literally is an undisputable fact? There simply is no logic in that.

I'm beginning to wonder why I'm wasting time in this thread when you are in it.

Yes it mentions how White Lions have more survivability with any build, but it was not referring specifically to base stats alone. There are many more variables to take into account.

So let me get this straight - you said that WL > Mara in survivability no matter how they spec. Surely that can ONLY mean NOT including any other variables? Or do we only use variables that work for you and can prove your incorrect original statement?

Ok so now your trying to refute my claim that White Lions have more longevity by bringing up very specific skills from two of the most conked out mastery lines in the entire game.

Actually, no. I'm bringing up skills from all trees and all available options regardless of wether you consider them "conked out" or not. It is only you that is focusing on the ones you consider broken. I consider Guardian (to be largely) a waste of time and you don't. Surely even with your blinkers on you can see other Maras might not agree with you about those trees either. But maybe not, your opinion is "fact" right?

The only drawback is the fact that as a monstrosity marauder you are very consistently within the line of fire of all RDPS, most AoE, and are at a mere stretch from MDPS.

In case you hadn't noticed this is true of any MDPS class, I would advise you get used to it or play RDPS.

Therefore already we should be looking at more than just 160 toughness for the Monstro Mara, and we most definitely shouldn’t have to spend mastery points on it and use up a tactic slot.

How do you suggest that is achieved? Just add a 160 toughness buff in Monstro? OP much?

Indeed those are my definitions, why do you feel the need to relay this information to me?

Because I don't agree with them, and from past experience you appear to think that once you have posted something in to this thread that is based on your opinion everyone else should take it as fact.

Once again the point I was getting at has just gone entirely over your head.

No, once again you haven't actually managed to prove your point, just because you repeat something in every thread does not make it fact. I'm actually prepared to be conviced but all of your points are riddled with opinion and factual errors.

If you wish to go in depth about which class was the most rushed out then lets list a few bugs from each class and make a constructive comparison.

Actually a lot of the ones you posted are also issues with a number of classes, and playing a WL you should be aware that there is similar list for WL - or did you not have time to copy/paste the same list from the WL forum? - though I would concede a number WL issues have been fixed since December.

The marauder only has “a ton of debuffs” if they go down the savagery line,

Hmmm lets see. Corruption (all), Touch of Rot (Monstro or Savagery), Pulverise (Brut or Monstro), So that is 2 for savagery, 3 for Monstro and 2 for brut.

For someone who has (apparently) played a White Lion I would expect you to have even the vaguest grasp on how it works and how truly good it is as a whole.

You really should back that statement up with some facts or at least a quote, but because you can't how about this - I'll post links to two of my 40 WL chars on a euro server and a USA server (they both have the same character names). I would ask you do do the same but at this point I'm beginning to think you have a WL in T2 or less (I really wouldn't want you to pretend and post someone elses char) and your "opinions" are based on reading the tooltips for skills.

[sbarra1x]

Ok Ntranced, this has now gone beyond being laughable, more so than I had previously anticipated in fact, and has actually began to evolve into complete joke, and no not the good kind.

I am in all actuality baffled by your lack of understanding when it comes to the topic at hand, your lack of comprehension for the points that I have been making is literally non existent, and your ability to constantly repeat questions and recycle your “refutes” while ignoring and avoiding answers almost entirely is beyond compare.

I've posted raw stat data, specific skills, tactics, stances while you just refer to what you "think" every time without justification..

If by posting raw data you mean copying a couple of numbers from the class stat chart then yes, you have provided some minor, trivial “evidence”, but the only problem with this that it was not refuting what I had been saying, and if anything it was only fortifying it.

Yes you posted a couple of tactics and abilities, so have I, so how exactly is it supposed to be evidence in your case but not in mine? A bit biased perhaps?

I feel you are lacking some vital knowledge on the concept of the word “evidence” and its definition.

Anyway, for more information on this issue, feel free to refer to my previous posts, you’ll find it there.

I'm beginning to wonder why I'm wasting time in this thread when you are in it..

I began to wonder that myself quite a while back now.

You just keep writing the same drivel over and over, somehow assuming that the more times you say it, the more of a reality it will become.

So let me get this straight - you said that WL > Mara in survivability no matter how they spec. Surely that can ONLY mean NOT including any other variables?.

Incorrect.

No matter how a white Lion specks they will always have much higher damage, especially burst, which will allow them to dispose of their target faster and thus take less damage overall.

The key concept here of course Ntranced, is that the faster you get the job done, the quicker you can get back to the safety of your team, and the less time the enemy has to attack you.

White Lions are also able to break roots and snares and become immune to the effects for 10 seconds meaning that they are able to flee to safety, whereas a Marauder will instantly be rooted/snared again and dealt with very quickly by the enemy.

Or do we only use variables that work for you and can prove your incorrect original statement?.
Refer to the information above this quote, or to some of my previous posts.
Actually, no. I'm bringing up skills from all trees and all available options regardless of wether you consider them "conked out" or not..

And so you should.

Its good for people to get the whole picture, not just a small biased opinion, hence why I was merely confirming that all of the abilities in which you had previously mentioned, excluding the ones specific to Monstrosity, belonged to very gimped, bugged, and flawed mastery lines.

They are essentially useless to a marauder because to actually get any real effectiveness out of them you would have to invest in one of these aforementioned, conked out mastery lines, thus condemning yourself to a role of ineffectiveness anyway.

Why would you take these abilities to make yourself better when by doing so you are essentially making yourself worse off than before?

Call me crazy but that just sounds rather counterproductive, thus this is why a majority of the abilities mentioned by yourself in defence of how the marauder can apparently become more viable and durable than a White Lion are practically worthless, and most definitely insignificant in comparison to the abilities a White lion can obtain to increase his/her effectiveness.

Anyway, once more all of this has been previously addressed by myself in prior posts, so for more information on the topic, please refer backwards.

It is only you that is focusing on the ones you consider broken. I consider Guardian (to be largely) a waste of time and you don't..

Exactly.

You have already said so yourself that you would much rather take any other class than a Guardian White Lion, going on to talk about how useless they are, and yet the mastery line and just the general build itself still by far superior to the brutality Marauder in practically every way, therefore essentially what you are saying here is that you agree with my points about brutality Marauders, yet you still attempt to refute them. You are very clearly confused.

But alas, once again though I have already touched up on this issue in previous posts, so for more clarification, feel free to refer backwards.

Surely even with your blinkers on you can see other Maras might not agree with you about those trees either. But maybe not, your opinion is "fact" right?.

I don’t think any half compitent Marauder that has spent time at rank 40 doing proper pvp will argue against what I have been saying.

Many will still say that they love their marauders, and that the class is fun, and I would agree with them, I have not once said otherwise, but you simply cannot refute the key points that I have been making about savagery and Brutality merely because not only are they my personal opinions, but are indeed facts as well.

It is a fact that savagery lacks a true role other than to replicate debuffs that other classes with their own defined roles bring.

It is a fact that Brutality puts out the lowest damage per second and burst damage of every MDPS class in the game, while not retaining any other specific role that a different Marauder could not already bring.

It is a fact that Marauders have the lowest mobility/escape abilities out of every MDPS class in the game.

It is a fact that monstrosity is the only properly viable mastery line for real, large scale pvp.

It is a fact that I have already stated this information to you in previous posts, thus for more clarification on the issue, please refer backwards.


In case you hadn't noticed this is true of any MDPS class, I would advise you get used to it or play RDPS..

If you had read any of my prior posts correctly then you would see that I have indeed noticed this.

I don’t believe I made the claim that Marauders are the only MDPS class in the game that have to perform within the enemies line of fire, I did however claim that they are the class that has a harder time doing so.

Also just to clarify, very clearly I was referring to the fact that Monstrosity Marauders are within range of enemy fire far more consistently than other MDPS classes because that is their job, to put pressure on the enemy team with constant AoE while weaving in their AoE disorient and AoE knockdown.

They cannot simply run in, dispose of an adversary, and then flee back to their group like the White lion for instance.

Anyway, once again, I have already addressed this topic in previous posts, so for more information please refer backwards.

How do you suggest that is achieved? Just add a 160 toughness buff in Monstro? OP much?.

Well no I didn’t suggest that, you did, so don’t let your imagination get a hold of you, but tbh it doesn’t sound like such a bad idea.

I don’t see why that would be perceived as being overpowered considering all the competent monstrosity Marauders already have this tactic slotted, thus all it would be doing is giving them a spare tactic slot, and tbh it really shouldn’t be consuming one anyway.

Because I don't agree with them, and from past experience you appear to think that once you have posted something in to this thread that is based on your opinion everyone else should take it as fact..

Ignorance is bliss I guess, for you at least.

Practically all the key points that I have made in this thread have been based around actual game mechanics and abilities, not to mention practical application, thus while still being a matter of opinion, they are also revolving around facts.

Anyway, I have already addressed this concern of yours in prior posts, so for more information on this topic, please refer backwards.


No, once again you haven't actually managed to prove your point, just because you repeat something in every thread does not make it fact..

You know why I have been having to repeat myself to you?

Because you simply insist on quoting the same stuff over and over, asking the same questions (which of course require the same answers) and attempting to refute the exact same things, while ignoring my answers.

What do you expect?

Your quoting me relentlessly spewing the same drivel, I can’t just invent new answers to the same questions because they would not be correct.

Basically if you ask the same questions expect to get the same answers, simple as that.

Hell I even put in the effort to re-word my replies for you in the hope that some new approach would set off a spark in your head and get your brain processing.

Anyway, I have already addressed this issue in previous posts, so for more information, please refer backwards.

I'm actually prepared to be conviced but all of your points are riddled with opinion and factual errors..

Feel free to provide us with these factual errors that are apparently riddled within my posts.

Actually a lot of the ones you posted are also issues with a number of classes, and playing a WL you should be aware that there is similar list for WL - or did you not have time to copy/paste the same list from the WL forum? - though I would concede a number WL issues have been fixed since December..

And the fact that other classes are also plagued with issues is supposed to automatically devaluate the ones that the Marauder is suffering from?

You made a claim that the White Lion class was rushed out with no polish, I was merely interjecting that Marauders are in fact worse off in that department.

Considering this is a thread comparing both the classes in the current state of the game I feel that the information I had provided is very fitting.

Hmmm lets see. Corruption (all), Touch of Rot (Monstro or Savagery), Pulverise (Brut or Monstro), So that is 2 for savagery, 3 for Monstro and 2 for brut. .

You seem to be confused here, Ntranced.

You made the claim that the marauder has a ton of debuffs, and I agreed, if they go down the savagery line.

The quote that I have posted above only displays three debuffs, so firstly you don’t even know what you are talking about, Marauders have more than that, and secondly your definition of “A ton” seems to be a bit off.

If you were referring to Marauders having “a ton” of debuffs as base abilities specifically, as I suspect, considering you are trying to refute my claim that you have to specialise down the path of savagery to gain a reasonable toolset, well you would still be wrong. Going by your bizarre logic, White Lions also have a ton of debuffs.

You really should back that statement up with some facts or at least a quote.

You really should take up on your own advice and do the same.

but because you can't how about this - I'll post links to two of my 40 WL chars on a euro server and a USA server (they both have the same character names). I would ask you do do the same but at this point I'm beginning to think you have a WL in T2 or less (I really wouldn't want you to pretend and post someone elses char) and your "opinions" are based on reading the tooltips for skills.

Well if you honestly believe that posting some links of your (supposedly) characters is going to magically make everything you have said suddenly become a fact then feel free to do so, in the mean time I’ll be here, waiting in the real world.

your "opinions" are based on reading the tooltips for skills.

Yet another astounding testament to your complete lack of competence when it comes to reading what is directly in form of you.

Once again you haven’t achieved a single thing in your post other than to try and refute the exact same points over and over, despite me already educating you on the subjects at hand in prior posts.

You truly are an absolute waste of time, but nevertheless very good for amusement.


Now before posting a reply and once again recycling everything that you have failed to comprehend in previous posts, which I am sure you will do so, try and actually do a bit of reading, think about what you are saying (this I feel is key), and then get back to me when you feel you have formed a vague grasp of what I have been saying.

Once again, my points still stand.

Remember, for clarification on any of the topics mentioned above, feel free to refer to my prior posts.

[LeoricMonolith]

This is not true. The Marauder is no less of a hit and run fighter then the WL, and the WL is no less a front line fighter then a Marauder.



No, they aren't. It lasts 50% of the time, maximum, can be blocked/parried, and requires a tactic slot and a specific mutation. I use it all the time, and I still get faceplanted in the dirt. Getting an AoE disorient doesn't automatically make you awesome at the frontlines.



Again, you can also put one on the marauder. The 2 disorients can't be kept up 100% of the time either, nor do they effect the pet. Nor is the game balanced for 1vs1 fights. Regardless, a good WL still has a damn good chance of beating a Marauder 1 on 1.



WLs and Marauders are both plenty viable. You can't make all these assumptions based on 1 marauder spec like every marauder is Monstro spec. They aren't. Nor do some people find low consistent AoE damage (outside of Broad Swings), to be very fun.

Now, I've advocated the Hunter WL path get SB to be like Demo for a long time, which would fix the issue here: The WL has no spammable AoE attack. Otherwise, its just gravy, a single AoE KD and a single AoE disorient do not make or break a class.

Regardless of this, lets look at the AoE mastery paths of these two classes, and the comparable positions of said abilities.

The Marauder AoE KD is in the same spot WLs get Pounce. This is why you don't get an AoE KD, because you get the best mobility increasing ability in the entire game. Pounce is an amazing ability, with a ton of applications, not just "jumping into the Destro backline." You can use it either offensively or defensively, and it is an amazing tool.

The Marauder AoE disorient tactic is in the same spot WLs get Pack Hunting. Pack Hunting is a ridiculously good tactic for increasing DPS, as most WLs know. Would you really be willing to give it up for an AoE disorient that lasted 5 seconds on a 10 second CD? I'm sure you say you would, but as soon as you noticed the huge loss in DPS, you would probably want it immediately back.

Now WLs do need some lovin, this is for sure, but so do Marauders (and I suggest moving the ST disorient out of the AoE path into Brutality, to balance the stacking).

I disagree with you about front liner status, you hold up much better under focus fire, and are able to do something about a large group of people focus firing you. It's unsurprising to me that white lions (usually single target spec'd) beat marauders (usually aoe specc'd.) Having an aoe disorient does make you awesome on the front lines, and it's clearly better than our single target disorient, it doesn't last "the whole time" but so what? The point of it is disruption and to slow down focus fire on you not to make you invincible. It does a good job of it too, and gives your healers breathing space that mine don't have.

You have to take it in context with your other abilities, if you're on the front line and charge a clump of order, you have a lot of ways to stay alive, while continuing to do your job, pop your aoe knockdown, you bought yourself 2 seconds, aoe disorient another 5 seconds of less incoming dps, pop ferocious assault, 200 extra toughness there, you've got 20 seconds of less incoming dps (on top of that 160 you get if you choose to use the tactic), smack someone with your single target disorient 5 more seconds of less dps from that guy. All the while you remain in position, using your aoe abilities doing your job of causing havoc. If all of that fails you can use your detaunt (which we have as well.)

Now let's look at the white lion, I can use pounce for mobility, it's great, don't get me wrong, but as far as surviving on the front line it doesn't help much. I can jump in, and be targetted almost immediately, my options are to use a single target disorient 9 seconds on one guy, detaunt, or jump back out (not doing anything useful.) This isn't a huge deal in 12 on 12, or heck even 24 on 24, the focus fire isn't so intense that my healers can't keep up, but once you move into zerg warfare, what I experience most of the time, I can't compare to a marauder.

I'm not asking for a nerf, I do think the other marauder lines need to be buffed, monstro seems like what every tree should offer, it synergizes incredibly well. Hunter doesn't do that, and due to pet issues guardian isn't very viable in my opinion either. I really think that marauders make destro front lines extraordinarily good, combined with the fact that you have 2 other front liners with aoe disorients, and a more melee slanted populace. White lions on the other hand cannot contribute to an order front line like the marauder does for destro. I agree that marauders should get a better choice with how they want to specialize, if they want to debuff they should have a good debuff line, if they want single target they should be able to spec for it and be good at it, I'm just asking for the same options, because right now all I've got is single target as a choice.

[Jinnz]

Lol at the nitpicking and bickering in thsi thread, like most of this forum.

WL is a much better MDPS than Marauder, but marauder has much more diversity, and can spec in a variety of ways. I'd love a KD as a WL and am very jealous of Destro's CC army. I'm fine though because I know I can destroy any of their squishies pretty much whenever I want. If Theyre under half health and not getting heals, If I can see that, they're dead. No 'but's or 'ifs, of a destro squishy is overextended or unsupported a good WL will take them out. Exactly the way it should be.


woot woot.

[Awe]

Marauders are better because the whole destruction melee line is designed as a steamroll. There is no grace about it, no tactics or positioning - it's just point and click.

All those chosen and BO's, marauders, WE's and DoK's carving through the odd IB defender.

White Lions should have been up there at the front, but they just don't stand a chance, same as WP's don't vs that melee zerg. We can only hope that Slayers start to balance it out.

[Feclump]

I guess it's a good thing you're not facing marauders then, you would've been gone a long time ago.

I have faced them both plenty of times. I have 40 Sorc and BW, and WL is stupidly overpowered right now.

Facing down a marauder or even witch elf is FAR easier on my BW than it is for my Sorc to face a WL. Hell, as I have stated before its even easier for my BW to deal with WEs and Maras than it is for my MARAUDER to face a WL.

All the WL needs is a pocket healer and its game over. Unstoppable killing machine with stupidly overpowered range destroying Destro.

Then of course there is fetch which is ruining the end game. The WL will get toned down or a lot will quit.

[LeoricMonolith]

I have faced them both plenty of times. I have 40 Sorc and BW, and WL is stupidly overpowered right now.

Facing down a marauder or even witch elf is FAR easier on my BW than it is for my Sorc to face a WL. Hell, as I have stated before its even easier for my BW to deal with WEs and Maras than it is for my MARAUDER to face a WL.

All the WL needs is a pocket healer and its game over. Unstoppable killing machine with stupidly overpowered range destroying Destro.

Then of course there is fetch which is ruining the end game. The WL will get toned down or a lot will quit.

You actually believe that? Wow, yes a pockethealer is all you need to keep a pretty squishy mdps alive whose only defense is medium armor, yep, god my healers must just suck seeing as I'm usually dropped in seconds, and I stack defensive stats! I guess all of my runepriests and archmages are just terrible. Thanks for showing me the truth, I'll just have to talk to them about doing their jobs better and then maybe I can become an unstoppable killing machine too rather than the first target focus fired down every battle.

[Marsares]

Then of course there is fetch which is ruining the end game. The WL will get toned down or a lot will quit.

It's the toy-out-of-the-pram argument that instantly invalidates the rest of your "argument". ;)

Not to mention that it's simply untrue. Browse the Order forums, and specifically AM forums, and see how many quote WE for leaving the game. I have yet to see a "I did not resub because of WL!" thread.

[CptCosmic]

I will trade my range advantage for the following bugfixxes and improvments:

-co ordinated strike now always works thus I dont have to micromanage it and waste my APs due to bugs and lags (multitask hell ftl)
-renown abilites works on the War Lion now
-due to better scaling the War Lion has 2-3k more HP and also significantly increased resist/armor at R40
-the War Lion is less vulnareble to AOE attacks by 25%
-Terrifying Roar pet ability (Trained to Hunt Stance) now disables all targets in range for 1.5 second and has 1m CD instead of the useless debuff.
-Gut Ripper pet ability (Trained to Kill stance) additionally decreases targets initiative and thoughness by 80
-the War Lion now uses his abilities as soon as they are available.
-if you set an ability on the pet bar to use it manually only, the pet bar saves the setting, even if you change stance, die or close the client.
-Because the War Lion is more sturdy now the range of fetch is reduced to 65ft to be inline with the Marauders ability cause I cant stand those desto kids crying.
-Wards affect the War Lion aswell.
-Pack Hunting now only works in Trained to Hunt like it should.
-War Lions speed is slightly increased thus he now is not outrunned by players without any speed buffs.
-changing stances invokes a 5s CD on the Trained to xxx stances thus you cant stance dance around and take advantage of all War Lions abilities for free (similar to marauders mutations)

Do we have a deal?

it is just stupid that a class designed around a pet is often more effective without it.

[Ntranced]

All the WL needs is a pocket healer and its game over. Unstoppable killing machine with stupidly overpowered range destroying Destro.

All any class needs is a pocket healer and it is game over. Sure it might take longer for a S+B tank to beat down whatever class is the target but the outcome is inevitable.

[Pudwhack]

All I can say is this...and I'm being truthful here. If you give a good WL an AOE disable, along with fetch and/or pounce, it will become the most OP toon in the game.

If I can pounce to the backline and immediately AOE disable all healers for 3 seconds, it's going to be easy deathblow time. Any unhealed shaman or zealot goes fast right now AS IS to a R40 WL with proper strength and combo attacks; an AOE disable shutting down all heals in a 30' range (or whatever AOE range Mythic sets) will make this game outright unplayable for destro healers since all WLs would have to do is pounce, disable, attack, attack, kill, then repeat. A single target disable would be the proper addition for a WL if you want to "buff" it. Our survivability sucks but it isn't a squishy class. And if I could 3-second AOE disable all I'd do is pounce in, AOE disable until I killed one target, then pounce out before you even got your action bars back. Then repeat.

I don't want any buffs really. I'd like all my abilities to WORK, first off, and the pet survivability and damage dealing to scale with my gear. That's it.

[kayeffem]

All I can say is this...and I'm being truthful here. If you give a good WL an AOE disable, along with fetch and/or pounce, it will become the most OP toon in the game.

If I can pounce to the backline and immediately AOE disable all healers for 3 seconds, it's going to be easy deathblow time. Any unhealed shaman or zealot goes fast right now AS IS to a R40 WL with proper strength and combo attacks; an AOE disable shutting down all heals in a 30' range (or whatever AOE range Mythic sets) will make this game outright unplayable for destro healers since all WLs would have to do is pounce, disable, attack, attack, kill, then repeat. A single target disable would be the proper addition for a WL if you want to "buff" it. Our survivability sucks but it isn't a squishy class. And if I could 3-second AOE disable all I'd do is pounce in, AOE disable until I killed one target, then pounce out before you even got your action bars back. Then repeat.

I don't want any buffs really. I'd like all my abilities to WORK, first off, and the pet survivability and damage dealing to scale with my gear. That's it.

My bet is if they add anymore cc to white lions it will be single target like the majority of our abilities. Other than that if our pet stats scale with player stats I think we'll be fine.

[Ntranced]

All I can say is this...and I'm being truthful here. If you give a good WL an AOE disable, along with fetch and/or pounce, it will become the most OP toon in the game.

Not sure about that. Destro have plenty of frontline clases with AoE disable, disorient, KD etc - just because you can pounce in and use it is little different than a mara charging in and using a skill and fleeing out again (different to charge 65ft or pounce 65ft? Minimal). but one thing is for sure there is far too much AoE in this game and the introduction of the new classes sure isn't going to help.

In all honesty I would settle for no positional requirement on blindsided (and no tactic required for the disorient but shorten duration and longer cooldown so you can't fire it off permanantly say 5s duration and 10s cooldown) - it can still be single target - and buff the pet a little. I wouldn't mind getting rid of all positionals though... they could take fetch in return for a 65ft cone KD and getting rid of all positionals :)

[Vanyel]

I will trade my range advantage for the following bugfixxes and improvments:

-co ordinated strike now always works thus I dont have to micromanage it and waste my APs due to bugs and lags (multitask hell ftl)
-renown abilites works on the War Lion now
-due to better scaling the War Lion has 2-3k more HP and also significantly increased resist/armor at R40
-the War Lion is less vulnareble to AOE attacks by 25%
-Terrifying Roar pet ability (Trained to Hunt Stance) now disables all targets in range for 1.5 second and has 1m CD instead of the useless debuff.
-Gut Ripper pet ability (Trained to Kill stance) additionally decreases targets initiative and thoughness by 80
-the War Lion now uses his abilities as soon as they are available.
-if you set an ability on the pet bar to use it manually only, the pet bar saves the setting, even if you change stance, die or close the client.
-Because the War Lion is more sturdy now the range of fetch is reduced to 65ft to be inline with the Marauders ability cause I cant stand those desto kids crying.
-Wards affect the War Lion aswell.
-Pack Hunting now only works in Trained to Hunt like it should.
-War Lions speed is slightly increased thus he now is not outrunned by players without any speed buffs.
-changing stances invokes a 5s CD on the Trained to xxx stances thus you cant stance dance around and take advantage of all War Lions abilities for free (similar to marauders mutations)

Do we have a deal?

it is just stupid that a class designed around a pet is often more effective without it.

Omfg you want your lion to have 5-6k hp? I believe there are some healers running around with about 6k hp and you want ur lion to have the same hp as a player on top of you own 7-8k hp???

To be honest I seldom see the lion die in 2-3 seconds as many ppl say they do. In fact, as a DPS class, I cant take down the lion by myself in 5s. With regard to the aoe, Im not exactly sure how it goes but I can imagine that the lion will die rather quickly in the front line with the player. Nevertheless this is part of the game. I cant imagine a way to increase the survivability of the lion until it can last in the front line for long without making the WL op.

I mean how long do you need the lion to last anyway? In orvr, if you cant kill a guy at the front line within 10-15 s, chances are you will be half dead from the aoe and will need to retreat. I know that happens to me alot. And i think unless the lion is being focused on by 2 sorcs, with grp heals it shd be able to last at least 10s. With focused fire however, anyone will be going down.

With regard to balance, its more of a rvr thing. Although WL do not have aoe kd, KoTBS has this and their skill is even better with a longer range. As for disorient, I will concede that Destro has it better and that the cast time shd be capped at 2s but in return, Order has much better KB which are just as useful in many situations.

And finally, Fetch range is really too long. No pull skill in this game shd be able to pull you out of heal and more importantly rez range of the healer.

[Martman]

I will trade my range advantage for the following bugfixxes and improvments:

-co ordinated strike now always works thus I dont have to micromanage it and waste my APs due to bugs and lags (multitask hell ftl)
-renown abilites works on the War Lion now
-due to better scaling the War Lion has 2-3k more HP and also significantly increased resist/armor at R40
-the War Lion is less vulnareble to AOE attacks by 25%
-Terrifying Roar pet ability (Trained to Hunt Stance) now disables all targets in range for 1.5 second and has 1m CD instead of the useless debuff.
-Gut Ripper pet ability (Trained to Kill stance) additionally decreases targets initiative and thoughness by 80
-the War Lion now uses his abilities as soon as they are available.
-if you set an ability on the pet bar to use it manually only, the pet bar saves the setting, even if you change stance, die or close the client.
-Because the War Lion is more sturdy now the range of fetch is reduced to 65ft to be inline with the Marauders ability cause I cant stand those desto kids crying.
-Wards affect the War Lion aswell.
-Pack Hunting now only works in Trained to Hunt like it should.
-War Lions speed is slightly increased thus he now is not outrunned by players without any speed buffs.
-changing stances invokes a 5s CD on the Trained to xxx stances thus you cant stance dance around and take advantage of all War Lions abilities for free (similar to marauders mutations)

Do we have a deal?

it is just stupid that a class designed around a pet is often more effective without it.

I'm sorry? QFT

due to better scaling the War Lion has 2-3k more HP and also significantly increased resist/armor at R40I find that they are hard enough to kill already. If i was to try and DPS a lion down before i got fetched, i would be laughed at. Admittedly, as a Blorc i will fair better under fire once fetched than a healer would fair, however i am yet to meet any tank that can survive 30000 unmitigatable damage, or someone who can survive in the centre of a WB under focus fire
To me, the white lion wounds level seems OP, however i know thats due to my lack of strength. I believe the level it is at now is fine.
A pet is not supposed to be as outlive its master.

renown abilites works on the War Lion nowThis would be lethal, if the above point was also applied. At RR40 your lion could have either
> +111Str, +9weapon skill
> +66Tough +33wounds (takes RR42 to attain)
> +3% to all resists, +6%armour, +30init (keeping in mind this is on top of its already buff armour/resists)

the War Lion is less vulnareble to AOE attacks by 25%Why? I don't really think anyone has a buff like that, especially a permanent one. When you think about have many abilities are AoE, thats a big damage reduction

War Lions speed is slightly increased thus he now is not outrunned by players without any speed buffs. So it is even harder to run away? Maximum i believe it should be is the Maurader top speed, and that is a maximum.
There should be a means of escape from WL's. I find that even being out of LOS behind a tree i can still get fetched, that is assuming i make it to the tree.
Rocks are the only 100% safe places where you can hide out of LOS

Wards affect the War Lion aswell.This is actually a valid point, however bear in mind they would suffer the negative effects of not having enough wards.

However, i think everything else you mentioned is fair enough :)
However IMO, what you have suggested above is that you take an Ironbreaker, reduce its HP to 6k, then set him loose.

Below are my suggestions regarding the ability Fetch, to bring it inline with other TE abilities
> A 65 feet range you make sense. It would fit in line all other TE abilities.
> I could deal with the range not changing, if one of the following was applied.
- The lion suffered some sort of wounds/toughness/resists debuff once Fetch is activated, so that everyone had the ability to avoid the pull. At the moment taunting and running around like a madman is crazy and often is unsuccessful. This debuff could either be in the form of a buff to the fetchee, or a debuff, so that those not getting fetched can deal more damage to the lion. In an RL sense, if a dog is fetching a stick, it will only concentrate on the stick, and be oblivious to everything else around it.
- Lion speed <= The speed of flee, allowing people to get away
- Cooldown increased, or Unstoppable Buff was applied to those who had been fetched, so they can get away.
- Roots/snares worked 100% of the time on pets, and was 100% effective. I have used my snare many many times, only to see a lion bounding at me with a snare debuff and a circle or rocks around its feet. How?
>Moderately debuff Fetch to 100ft, and debuff lion speed to flee speed. Or, once the lion has ran 100ft it returns back to its master. Probably the closest to a compromise.

I think it is only fair everyone has a means of escape

These are just my thoughts,

<3
Martman
The Fetched, Flanked and Ganked Black Orc

[CptCosmic]

stuff
I would suggest you to play the WL. it is a fun to play class till r30 after that it gets horrible.

why should the pet not gain any advantage of RR abilities? your character fully scale with higher RR but 1/3 of WLs dmg does not. I have never said it should fully benefit of it, if it would just get 25% of the bonus, it would be already an improvement.

and pet dies to a single direct dmg spell crit instantly and AOE spam does it too. it is basically useless in large fights, thus Loner is necessary build. and a tactic should never be necessary to fix a broken class mechanic. and the problem is always the same, everyone scale with RR and gear, pet stays always with sucky with about 2k hp and no resist and always the same dmg.

and without speed training tactic the pet is useless as it cannot even stay on its target (WITHOUT the target having a speed buff and WITHOUT the pet being snared) and will get behind thus any builds with pet out are useless without the one tactic. tactics should be options and not necessary to fix a broken class mechanics.

in short, how would you as a black orc like it when I could cut your arms (or just shoot them down with AOE) thus you cant fully use it resulting in less dmg dealt and how would you like it when you have necessary tactics because otherwise you are not be able to use e.g. your shield?

there is a pet ability in the guardian build that makes pet immune to roots and snares, thats how they can, but the ability is deep into the tree and this tree sucks mostly.

the only thing a WL has is fetch to contribute anything to a group in fights to break zergs but one ability that sometimes works on bad groups is no excuse for a broken class mechanic. It is a pet class that works better without a pet.

btw destro is not even close to the position to demand any nerfs with all their AOE CC & AOE disorients.

[Martman]

why should the pet not gain any advantage of RR abilities? your character fully scale with higher RR but 1/3 of WLs dmg does not. I have never said it should fully benefit of it, if it would just get 25% of the bonus, it would be already an improvement.
I've got no problems with a percentage buff like that.... i just think that an upgraded lion and full RR buffs would be a bit too keen for me :p

and pet dies to a single direct dmg spell crit instantly and AOE spam does it too. it is basically useless in large fights, thus Loner is necessary build. and a tactic should never be necessary to fix a broken class mechanic. and the problem here is again, everyone scale with RR and gear, pet stays always with sucky with about 2k hp and no resist and always the same dmg.
Ok, i cannot argue even in T1 and T2 playing a sorc, it was noticable how easy a lion was to take down, however i don't know how they stack up against the lions in the higher tiers. Melee DPS/Tanks/Healers have it pretty rough however, they cannot deal out the necessary DPS to bring down a lion. Thus i said that the level the lion was at now appeared to be ok. (this is purely in a Fetch ability sense, its way to early in the morning to start talking about class mechanics)

and without speed training tactic the pet is useless as it cannot even stay on its target (WITHOUT the target having a speed buff and WITHOUT the pet being snared) and will get behind thus any builds with pet out are useless without the one tactic. tactics should be options and not necessary to fix a broken class mechanics.
LOL... really i think it is fair in the sense of Fetch, because we are able to escape if need be, because for myself, 1v1 i am locked in until 1 of us dies. See the link below and you will see what i mean if you watch throguh from 3min30secs
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ooM9gSl-mXY
If you are not planning to use fetch and still cannot keep on target this seems wrong. However, from my perspective i cannot get away, Fetch or no Fetch. I am assuming this is because every man and his lion apply this tactic. The speed difference is shown pretty well in that video

in short, how would you as a black orc like it when I could cut your arms (or just shoot them down with AOE) thus you cant fully use it resulting in less dmg dealt and how would you like it when you have necessary tactics because otherwise you are not be able to use e.g. your shield?
I'm not here to argue that WL's are fine, or that WL's are OP. IMO, the class mechanic does need some work.
However, i am here to say that Fetch is an OP ability. And no, an OP ability does not negate a broken class, nor do tactics. But does this just not add to the pile of things that need to be changed to fix the mechanic??

[Vanyel]

I would suggest you to play the WL. it is a fun to play class till r30 after that it gets horrible.

why should the pet not gain any advantage of RR abilities? your character fully scale with higher RR but 1/3 of WLs dmg does not. I have never said it should fully benefit of it, if it would just get 25% of the bonus, it would be already an improvement.

and pet dies to a single direct dmg spell crit instantly and AOE spam does it too. it is basically useless in large fights, thus Loner is necessary build. and a tactic should never be necessary to fix a broken class mechanic. and the problem is always the same, everyone scale with RR and gear, pet stays always with sucky with about 2k hp and no resist and always the same dmg.

and without speed training tactic the pet is useless as it cannot even stay on its target (WITHOUT the target having a speed buff and WITHOUT the pet being snared) and will get behind thus any builds with pet out are useless without the one tactic. tactics should be options and not necessary to fix a broken class mechanics.

in short, how would you as a black orc like it when I could cut your arms (or just shoot them down with AOE) thus you cant fully use it resulting in less dmg dealt and how would you like it when you have necessary tactics because otherwise you are not be able to use e.g. your shield?

there is a pet ability in the guardian build that makes pet immune to roots and snares, thats how they can, but the ability is deep into the tree and this tree sucks mostly.

the only thing a WL has is fetch to contribute anything to a group in fights to break zergs but one ability that sometimes works on bad groups is no excuse for a broken class mechanic. It is a pet class that works better without a pet.

btw destro is not even close to the position to demand any nerfs with all their AOE CC & AOE disorients.

Oh yea try playing a marauder we are the same as you except we starting sucking at Tor Anroc. That means r20 instead of r30.

TBH IMO the best way to balance WL is to allow you guys to allocate your stats between your lion and yourself, with a bonus perhaps. As we all know the lion is like a part of you and WLs are complaining how weak the lions are, but if the lion is buffed w/o changing the WL stats, the class as a whole will be too strong. Bascially your will have the same stats as everyone, and you will get to bring your pet.

And btw please stop complaining about how the masteries are built, ie how Guardian sucks. For marauders to get our healing debuff and amor debuff, we have to go up the savagery tree which sucks as bad as your guardian tree. Even worse, we have to switch arm in the middle of combat to use all our skills unlike you.

Finally, before I can get in range to do my aoe kd(30ft) and disorient(30ft), I will be kd(65ft) and rooted by your KoTBS, or kb and snared by your IB. These are Order CC. Just because WL doesnt have them doesnt mean that there are not there.

Having said all these, I do not know how bad the WL is as i've never playedd one, but I will take your words that the lion is broken, ie pathing etc and those have to be ficed first.

[CptCosmic]

I dont care if fetch range is being nerfed but I want a fixxed pet first =D

[Jinxed Fortune]

All I can say is this...and I'm being truthful here. If you give a good WL an AOE disable, along with fetch and/or pounce, it will become the most OP toon in the game.

If I can pounce to the backline and immediately AOE disable all healers for 3 seconds, it's going to be easy deathblow time. Any unhealed shaman or zealot goes fast right now AS IS to a R40 WL with proper strength and combo attacks; an AOE disable shutting down all heals in a 30' range (or whatever AOE range Mythic sets) will make this game outright unplayable for destro healers since all WLs would have to do is pounce, disable, attack, attack, kill, then repeat. A single target disable would be the proper addition for a WL if you want to "buff" it. Our survivability sucks but it isn't a squishy class. And if I could 3-second AOE disable all I'd do is pounce in, AOE disable until I killed one target, then pounce out before you even got your action bars back. Then repeat.

I don't want any buffs really. I'd like all my abilities to WORK, first off, and the pet survivability and damage dealing to scale with my gear. That's it.

You speak the truth my friend, and all you have to do is look at the WE to confirm your point. They only have a 2 second AoE disable/knockdown in OYK, and they pretty much dominate the Order back line once they stealth back there.

When you combine high damage, ability to enter the backline anytime, and AoE disable; you have an OP class no doubt about it.

[Seldoran]

Oh yea try playing a marauder we are the same as you except we starting sucking at Tor Anroc. That means r20 instead of r30.

TBH IMO the best way to balance WL is to allow you guys to allocate your stats between your lion and yourself, with a bonus perhaps. As we all know the lion is like a part of you and WLs are complaining how weak the lions are, but if the lion is buffed w/o changing the WL stats, the class as a whole will be too strong. Bascially your will have the same stats as everyone, and you will get to bring your pet.

And btw please stop complaining about how the masteries are built, ie how Guardian sucks. For marauders to get our healing debuff and amor debuff, we have to go up the savagery tree which sucks as bad as your guardian tree. Even worse, we have to switch arm in the middle of combat to use all our skills unlike you.

Finally, before I can get in range to do my aoe kd(30ft) and disorient(30ft), I will be kd(65ft) and rooted by your KoTBS, or kb and snared by your IB. These are Order CC. Just because WL doesnt have them doesnt mean that there are not there.

Having said all these, I do not know how bad the WL is as i've never playedd one, but I will take your words that the lion is broken, ie pathing etc and those have to be ficed first.

That is the worst way to balance the White Lion. You either beef yourself up, meaning the pet will still die, beef your pet up so you will be easier to kill, or balance out and be less effective than both should be.

The Pet is a force to be reckoned with, at least that's how they are described. They should be durable, which is what the White Lions ask for. They should deal respectable damage, which I believe has been addressed, and should use abilties as instructed or as is most useful, namely being spammed. This they ask for, in exchange for nerfing Fetch!, among other things.

Less game breaking, they want to receive the spit and polish that Destruction as a whole has gotten in regards to class appearance and flavor. White Lions are recolored Swordmasters at the moment. Not that Sword masters look all that bad (/preen), but that isn't what the majority signed up for.

I fail to see how any tree which has armor penetration and healing reduction can be "bad". They are amazing tools for the assist train melee rush, in which Destruction has a particular advantage with the mass amount of AoE CC the melee possess.

"Bad" as in lower damage output? Be more specific here, rather than saying "sucks as bad" and leaving it at that.

And it's a real shame you have to switch your stances to use different abilities. I can't possibly think of any other class where that holds true, in any way or form, so that you cannot simply fire everything from the hip.

This is not constructive at all to prove your point. If I may qoute many Order and Destruction players, "This is just another 'this happened, so it's not a problem/is a problem'."

Here's the question I ask in response to that. Among all the other people you should be advancing with, ~two~ seperate players saw it fit to target you with their CC in order to stop ~you~ over anyone else. Why?

Did you rush alone? You deserve all the attention you got then. Did you rush with others? Why were you picked over them?

Clearly, the people who focused on you, the Marauder, must see the Marauder as something dangerous to warrant said attention, over the Chosen, Black Orcs, etc charging into their ranks. That, or you were just the first thing they targeted. Hardly worth bringing up to defend / advance a position, on both sides. Too situational, and you will likely be refuted and supported and there will be no definite end to this sort of example. Better to leave these out.

Lastly, never admit you know little about the class you argue against. It can be used to refute your aguement without it receiving due merit. This is more a tip than a critique.

[Vanyel]

The WL cant have their cake and eat it. Either they are equivalent with everyone else when their pet is taken into account, or they buff the lion and make the WL better than everyone else due to their larger hp(combined) and dmg.

With regard to the savagery tree portion, I meant that WL do have the option to make their pets tougher, ie level up the guardian tree. However, some WL complain that their lions are fragile and did not choose to level their guardian tree because they find it weak. The argument I was trying to make is that marauders have to give up their debuffs to get our vaunted aoe disorient thats all.

And finally, Heaven's Fury is aoe they dont really target me its just that I charge with my tanks, or perhaps I was conveniently hit by the cone. Nevertheless, this point was made against the aoe disorient and kd thats all. Specifically how WLs complain that they do not get those. Im just saying that the CC is balanced just to mirror to mirror thats all. It was specific for this line which i quoted. Which I took to mean that destro CC is superior to Order CC.

btw destro is not even close to the position to demand any nerfs with all their AOE CC & AOE disorients.

[CptCosmic]

With regard to the savagery tree portion, I meant that WL do have the option to make their pets tougher, ie level up the guardian tree.
putting points into guardian does NOT make the pet tougher, it lets the pet deal more dmg. if you mean the heal tactic that heals for 200hp every 5 seconds, a r10 toon can heal more, it changes nothing. only tactic that makes the pet a bit tougher is the full grown tactic deep into the axe tree but it is currently buggy and those increased wounds are not enough + the pet still has no resistances.

[Vanyel]

My bad then. I stand corrected

[heretik32]

Marauders have a snare that can be kept up constantly with no positional requirement. Got tired of my archmage so i rolled one for a little order vacation time.

Since no one seems to have answered that one yet...

erm, no... we don't. Maybe you're thinking of the Chosen.

We got http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8396.

[Kriesha]

The WL cant have their cake and eat it.

Aaaarrggghhh! Why the hell do people keep using this phrase. Of course, if I have a cake I expect to eat it. What good would be a cake that you can't eat. It should be the other way around: You can't eat your cake and have it too.

[Tysis]

Sorry Kriesha, but technically the statement is time neutral. The use of the word "then," or some other time sensitive word would be required to invalidate the statement. As it is, the statement only implies a relative order and implication is markedly different from fact.

To make this post relevant, however, I will add that on the point of snaring the WL could actually be considered to have an advantage (It's a stretch, but it's there). We get Cleave Limb which does less damage and costs almost twice as much. That being said, it has a 5s cooldown and a 10s debuff timer (or 50% chance to break on being hit). This means that if a WL were to stop attacking you (Even with autoattack!) we could keep you snared indefinitely... The lion also gets a snare, Leg Tear if it's on Trained to Threaten.

Finally, to all those Marauders out there who say stance-dancing in combat is hard. Sorry, WLs have the same challenge that you guys do if we want to stance-dance. Additionally, while you require a certain mutation to use certain abilities, we parallel that drawback with our abilities that mandate that our lion be out. Marauders can instantly switch mutations at no cost with a 5 second cooldown to reactivate that mutation which, if you do the math.. (1.5 second global cooldown after mutation switch + 1.5 second global cooldown after using the minimum 1 ability that you changed mutation for) means that the minimum cooldown you could ever face is 2 seconds (Although most of you have probably never noticed that because changing mutations for 1 ability is a big downtime for 1 ability). Summoning the lion (If it's dead or we're loner spec), on the other hand, costs 55 AP, takes 2 seconds to cast, and has a 15 second cooldown that only starts after the lion dies.

[Yamota]

As the squishy healer of Order I cant say I have that much problems with Maruaders. They do nice damage but nowhere near that of a WE and they seem to go down pretty fast.

[zombieMarauder]

Finally, to all those Marauders out there who say stance-dancing in combat is hard. Sorry, WLs have the same challenge that you guys do if we want to stance-dance. Additionally, while you require a certain mutation to use certain abilities, we parallel that drawback with our abilities that mandate that our lion be out. Marauders can instantly switch mutations at no cost with a 5 second cooldown to reactivate that mutation which, if you do the math.. (1.5 second global cooldown after mutation switch + 1.5 second global cooldown after using the minimum 1 ability that you changed mutation for) means that the minimum cooldown you could ever face is 2 seconds (Although most of you have probably never noticed that because changing mutations for 1 ability is a big downtime for 1 ability). Summoning the lion (If it's dead or we're loner spec), on the other hand, costs 55 AP, takes 2 seconds to cast, and has a 15 second cooldown that only starts after the lion dies.

Marauders don't stance dance.

Sometimes they switch to monstrosity to do a little spam aoe, but that's it.

there is no reason to stance dance, and no efficient skills to mix and match. You're either a mostly savagery with some monstro, full brutality, or full monstro.

WLs have a better pull, a consistent dot with their pet, and better dmg from what I've seen with skilled players.

You also have pounce, which you can use to sploit out of our pull, plus a free charge.

Marauders also have the worst freedom spell in the game, and several broken tactics.

[Tysis]

1. I recognize that Marauders generally do not change your stance. I just included that tidbit in regards to a previous post on this thread (I don't feel like going back through 14 pages of posts at the moment for the quote) where a marauder player was saying that it's too hard for him to change mutations in combat.

2. I concede you have the worst freedom in the game. I sympathize for you.

3. I concede that a WL's Fetch is, in most cases, at least as useful as TE and more often than not Fetch is the more useful ability (Despite all the previously documented drawbacks).

I would, however, contend that if we are running a spec that involves the lion then we generally have at least 1 or 2 tactics dependent on its continued presence. Additionally, we have quite a few abilities that only function through the lion. This means that if you kill the lion you very often ruin the WLs build by making 1-3 tactics and 2-5 abilities (and therefore generally around 4 or 5 mastery points) useless for 17 seconds minimum...

We all know by now that the lion is fairly easily killed. We get 2 heals for the lion, one of which is a tactic that mandates our stance (Trained to Kill). Neither heals more than a hundred or two per tick. While that may pose a challenge for a dedicated caster, Marauders can outdamage the heals with ease.

This means that against the adept opponent the lion's damage really isn't all that reliable. That being said... I also agree that a good WL should be able to out-DPS a Marauder. I would argue, though, that the AoE capability of Marauder, specifically: Concussive Jolt, Wave of Terror, etc., generally more than make up for the lower burst damage in terms of group utility. Not to mention that we've already established that in general Marauder abilities are cheaper, do more damage, and lack the positionals of their WL counterparts.

Then there's Pounce... No arguement here... Maybe Choppa will get it.

[0Jaxx0]

Since no one seems to have answered that one yet...

erm, no... we don't. Maybe you're thinking of the Chosen.

We got http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8396.

Correct debilitate has a 10s cooldown and it lasts 5s. Still pretty damn good since its an available in any stance, doesnt require a positional and does pretty good damage. and a marauder gets it at lvl 3.
I would certainly prefer a 10s cooldown to my swordmasters snare if i could use it without having to use another attack first.. and if it did any noticeable damage.

But as to what the guy was talking about instead of the snare that could be kept up all the time I think his was actually thinking about the disorient of thunderous blow which pretty can be kept up since its 5s coold down but lasts 5s.
Also similar to the SM disorient dazzling strike with same duration, effect, similar damage but dazzling strike has 10s cooldown.
And yea I know we are talking about WL vs marauder but I have played maruader and SM and only have a 15 WL. My point was marauder has some potent abilties in general compared to other classes versions.

[zombieMarauder]

1. I recognize that Marauders generally do not change your stance. I just included that tidbit in regards to a previous post on this thread (I don't feel like going back through 14 pages of posts at the moment for the quote) where a marauder player was saying that it's too hard for him to change mutations in combat.

2. I concede you have the worst freedom in the game. I sympathize for you.

3. I concede that a WL's Fetch is, in most cases, at least as useful as TE and more often than not Fetch is the more useful ability (Despite all the previously documented drawbacks).

I would, however, contend that if we are running a spec that involves the lion then we generally have at least 1 or 2 tactics dependent on its continued presence. Additionally, we have quite a few abilities that only function through the lion. This means that if you kill the lion you very often ruin the WLs build by making 1-3 tactics and 2-5 abilities (and therefore generally around 4 or 5 mastery points) useless for 17 seconds minimum...

We all know by now that the lion is fairly easily killed. We get 2 heals for the lion, one of which is a tactic that mandates our stance (Trained to Kill). Neither heals more than a hundred or two per tick. While that may pose a challenge for a dedicated caster, Marauders can outdamage the heals with ease.

This means that against the adept opponent the lion's damage really isn't all that reliable. That being said... I also agree that a good WL should be able to out-DPS a Marauder. I would argue, though, that the AoE capability of Marauder, specifically: Concussive Jolt (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8423), Wave of Terror (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8422), etc., generally more than make up for the lower burst damage in terms of group utility. Not to mention that we've already established that in general Marauder abilities are cheaper, do more damage, and lack the positionals of their WL counterparts.

Then there's Pounce... No arguement here... Maybe Choppa will get it.


cry me a river. brutality marauders are forced into 3 tactics to do any dmg with no real room for changing builds.

Wave of terror is our only good DOT, and you can't have WOT and CJ at the same time as a single target marauder. Its either one or the other.

Honestly CJ is very buggy and only really good at knocking people down to escape. Half the time it doesn't even work because of all the other CC spam and immovable. It's a small radius and you have to be positioned just right.

Lack position dependent abilities? You're on crack, sir.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8399

Our best DMG ability is Impale which requires that you be behind or beside a target!!

where did we establish they are cheaper and better?? I think you don't know much about marauders and are just crying that order sucks.

[Waffles]

Lack position dependent abilities? You're on crack, sir.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8399

Our best DMG ability is Impale which requires that you be behind or beside a target!!

where did we establish they are cheaper and better?? I think you don't know much about marauders and are just crying that order sucks.



Sundering Chop (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9165) - Behind to get the 50% armour ignore. Compared to Impale (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8399): 35 AP vs 25 AP, 112 damage vs 262 damage. Cheaper and better.

Fey Illusion (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9175) - Must be facing you.

Shattering Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9171) - Sides or Behind to get the str debuff.

Blindside (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9161) - Sides or Behind to use.

Thin the Herd (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9191) - Sides or Behind to use.

[imutate]

Ok just a quick few questions as this has really bugged me tonight, please correct me if im wrong..

Maruders have a AOE knockback and AOE Disable whilst we have 0, except for 2 snares one which is a lion ability,

there attacks cost les and are not specific to flank or rear of the attack last longer buffs of by passing armor at a higher rate too,

and they even dare to complain that fetch is OP??

do maruders get a snare aswel?

next bit is my current thoughts on the game:

I love this game and been playing it till release, but i'm starting to not find it fun and more irrating than ever, if its not the population balance thats ruining it for me but now how much better the destro classes have it, the WE V WH, how the BO are damn tough espeicaly the self healing ones when critted!

Fetch is getting nerfed to marauders terrible embrace level and a mythic dev said that marauder is the most balanced class i think you were wrong:cool:

[abluecardigan]

Fetch is getting nerfed to marauders terrible embrace level and a mythic dev said that marauder is the most balanced class i think you were wrong:cool:
And we'll be almost as balanced when our abilities don't cost nearly double those of our mirror and don't have as many awkward positional requirements. It will be a bit closer if white lions get something to contribute to a team fight besides DPS.

[Ashonic]

. It will be a bit closer if white lions get something to contribute to a team fight besides DPS.


wait what?

[firecow]

To be perfectly honest the WL >>>>>>>>>> MARA

They're just a more solid class, plain and simple.

WL have more survivability and better burst damage

Marauders have better AOE and snares/build timers but that only goes so far when you are alive.

Both classes have issues but marauder issues are much more serious than the WL. I would rather have a class with high survivability and pose a serious threat to the backlines of any zerg than a class which can cause some AOE harm, which by the way is only really effective against balled up order.

At that, as soon as your knockdown wears off you're just going to be focused fired into oblivious

WL do not have more survivability. Their survivability tree is in Guardian spec and that is not a popular spec due to having to rely too much on the finiky and buggy pet system. A guardian WL is roughly equivilent to a pure DPS tacticed 2hand Swordsmaster in terms of survivability, which really isn't saying much. But i also believe Marauders have survivability skills as well.

Most WL are axeman/hunter and those survive at the same rate as Marauders. Both are wearing medium armor. Outside of speccing guardian there is nothing a WL has that will prolong his life over a marauder. Those WL you can't take down are the ones getting heal-botted. I can tell you that doesn't happen often unless it's a pre-made. Likewise, a Marauder being healbotted is almost impossible to bring down. Last weekend 2 WL, 1 Vengeance IB + a WP couldn't take down 1 WL for over 3 minutes. We had to drag him out of heal range before we could down him. Anyone, even a squishy, gettign healbotted is going to survive a very long time even against several enemies. This includes WL, Mar, WE, WH etc...

Right now WL are really strong class but the AOE tree is really lacking and the guardian tree, while good, depends on a very buggy and finiky pet system. The most dependable main spec is axeman, which is why so many peopple go down that tree. The class also suffers from massive positional requirements and AP use. Personally I don't mind the positional requirements. I played a Reaver in DAOC and I love that fact about it. But in a game like WAR it is a hinderance even when you make it work.

Mar don't have these limitations and they can come out of the gate running. As a WL, to be effective, I spend a great deal of time prepping my targets and creating a combat situation that favors the class' strengths. I can get into a general brawl, but my pet will die. Marauders are simply a better brawler. My WL plays more like a reverse Witch Elf/Witch Hunter because of the prep time and requirements to create a conducive combat environment for ourselves.

Or I can go loner without the pet and be a darn good brawler. I'll have much better single target DPS than a Mar but I give up my pet and by thi spoint, a Mar is simply better in every way from a group play POV.

The greatest strength of the WL isn't his damage. It's his mobility and ability to create opportunities in combat for himself. Powerful i will admit but it also comes at the price of sacrificed combat time, preparation and group utility. It's a great class, and the only truly functioning High Elf class, but it does a disservice to the Marauder to completely ignore his strengths; and the Marauder has them even if many of the players refuse to acknowledge it.

[zombieMarauder]

Sundering Chop (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9165) - Behind to get the 50% armour ignore. Compared to Impale (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8399): 35 AP vs 25 AP, 112 damage vs 262 damage. Cheaper and better.

Fey Illusion (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9175) - Must be facing you.

Shattering Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9171) - Sides or Behind to get the str debuff.

Blindside (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9161) - Sides or Behind to use.

Thin the Herd (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9191) - Sides or Behind to use.


What's your point?
We have flanking and impale that require side and behind. We have to use another tactic to get any armor ignore (piercing bite) and you're complaining? If you factor in two hand damage + a free tactic slot you probably do just as much.

If you dont like fighting sides/behind don't play WL.
don't use it as some gimmick to complain.

You're bascially arguing that you can't just be lazy and spam attacks.

[Tysis]

Sigh... I didn't want to do this again.

For this comparison I'm going to assume you're spec'd to use the ability. Yes I know they're in different trees but both WL and Marauder will have abilities that they cannot use depending on their build so I don't want anyone going off and saying you can't use both this ability and that ability together. This is for comparison only so I'll stick to abilities that actually have a mirror (ie. No Pounce (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9186), KDs, Wave of Terror (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8422), Touch of Rot (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8404), etc. I won't do all the abilities but here's a few (Please don't accuse me of only picking the ones that favor my point, I'm not. I'm leaving out a lot of Marauder's best abilities like Gut Ripper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=49) because I don't think WL gets anything comparable. Similarly, I'm leaving out things like Leonine Frenzy (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9194) because Marauder's don't have anything comparable)):

Flail (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8392) vs. Hack (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9160) Flail does more damage for same cost with the bonus of additional potential. I'd take Flail.

Rend (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8395) vs. Blindside (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9161) Same cost, Blindside does a tiny bit more damage. Rend is stackable, has has no cooldown, and lacks positionals. I'd take Rend.

Debilitate (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8396) vs. Cleave Limb (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9170) Debilitate does more damage for cheaper, the snare isn't as long but it has a 50% break chance with a hit so neither WL nor Marauder is going to use the whole duration generally. WL ability has a faster cooldown. This one is a toss-up.

Corruption (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8400) vs. Shattering Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9171) Toughness reduction or strength reduction, Shattering Blow does more damage over a longer period of time and they have the same cost. I'm assuming Corruption isn't stackable. The debuff from Corruption lasts longer (20s versus 9s). I'd take Shattering Blow here actually because the DoT can critical with each tick increasing the damage potential and the lack of cooldown for either helps negate the shorter duration.

Guillotine (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8420) vs. Cull the Weak (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9190) Guillotine is 5 more AP but does more damage, both have the below 50% HP condition. Toss-up.

Concussive Jolt (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8423) vs. Slashing Blade (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9176) Slashing Blade does more damage but you pay for it with AP. CJ has KD and a longer cooldown. I'd take CJ in terms of utility. It stops people from running.

Wrecking Ball (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8425) vs. Whirling Axe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9188) Wrecking Ball does more damage. Everything else is the same. No contest: Wrecking Ball wins.

Finally Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) vs. Fetch! (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9178) This may be a moot point given the comments made by developers at ComicCon, however, there are threads devoted to this topic elsewhere and here. I'd take either, but I prefer Fetch! for the range despite the pet reliance.

I've listed 8 abilities here. I've also given my honest opinions on them (Though some of you may not believe me). 4 of my favorites are Marauder, 2 are toss-ups, 2 are WL favored.

There are two more Marauder skills (1 ability, 1 tactic) I'd like to touch on and I have to thank Zombie for pointing them out:

Cutting Claw (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8418) and Piercing Bite (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8435)
Wow! The closest thing WL has is Sundering Chop (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9165).

If you combine those two skills you can ignore up to 87.5% (the 75% reduction is a debuff and therefore the additional 50% ignore is applied to the remaining armor or 12.5% of total) of your opponent's armor. The cooldown for Cutting Claw is the same as it's duration meaning that it can be kept up continuously AND since it's a debuff that means that all other melee attacks on the target will also ignore 75% of it's armor.

This begs the question, and I mean this with all seriousness, why isn't savagery spec'd more often? Can a Marauder please explain this to me in a reasonable and non-offensive manner?

PS: WL gets Flanking (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=523) too so if we use it for our positionals that takes up a tactic slot for us as well. In other words, Flanking isn't really relavent to the discussion. Also, we can spam buttons too... In fact we're often accused of spamming Fetch!.

[zombieMarauder]

Sigh. :confused:

Again, you're basing your observations on 1 handed vs 2 handed weapons.

You're leaving out a huge variable which makes your entire argument null and void IMO. Why would a 2 handed class have the same damage and cost with higher base dps weapons? Think about it and maybe you can see why an 80 DPS 2 hander shouldn't have the same base ability as a 50 DPS 1 hander weapon.


And people don't play Savagery because it's not that good of a path. You Spam cutting claw and try to kill tanks. But you know what? You still do about 300 damage a hit. Your strenght is only about 700 after the tactics you have to take to make cutting claw work. You can also try to use AP drains but it gimps you even more and is barely effective.

You can't use piercing bite with cutting claw. :wink:
You can't stack armor debuffs. :rolleyes:

CC automatically trumps PB even if you could use it. But you can't because PB only works with skills that USE A MUTATION. 80 percent of savagery isn't mutation exclusive. For example, flail is not mutation dependent, and Impale is.

It also makes stacking weapon skill worthless (the main tactic stat of the whole damn path) as it doesn't stack with cutting claw, or add any penetration.

It's a mess. I call it the placebo tree myself.

Who wants to be a melee debuff bot that does 350 points a hit?





You just see a bunch of abilities in a void and you have no clue how it applies in game. Thats why you have no right to call for nerfs or balance.

[Tysis]

Ability damage is independent of 1 or 2 handed weapons. A Swordmaster (My alt) who uses Griffon's Lash still does 150 base damage at level 40 regardless of whether the weapon is 1-handed or 2-handed. The comparisons are still valid because we're comparing abilities not equipment. After all, however foolish it may be, a WL can equip a 1-handed axe. I've seen it before and it makes me cry.

That being said, I do believe the tooltip DPS value of the weapon does have an affect on ability damage. I will check tomorrow to be certain though. Your point is valid.

I will add that there is one advantage to 1-handed weapons though. Their faster attack speed allows for more opportunities to critical on auto-attacks and since strength (Which, by the way, Marauders have a higher base strength at level 40 [227 to 197 at Rank 40 and no RP points], WLs have a higher initiative) is a much larger contributor to damage than the difference in the DPS value of the weapon. This means that to truly compare 1-handed and 2-handed weapons you need to consider critical frequency (See Gut Ripper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=49) and Pack Synergy (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9198) for additional comparison).


You just see a bunch of abilities in a void and you have no clue how it applies in game. Thats why you have no right to call for nerfs or balance.


Thanks for the response to my savagery question although I feel the rudeness and personal attacks could likely have been omitted. I asked the question because I didn't know the answer and I won't learn without asking. I'd also like to point out that this is a comparison thread. I, personally, haven't asked for any nerfs or suggested any balancing measures here.

[zombieMarauder]

Ability damage is independent of 1 or 2 handed weapons. A Swordmaster (My alt) who uses Griffon's Lash still does 150 base damage at level 40 regardless of whether the weapon is 1-handed or 2-handed. The comparisons are still valid because we're comparing abilities not equipment. After all, however foolish it may be, a WL can equip a 1-handed axe. I've seen it before and it makes me cry.

That being said, I do believe the tooltip DPS value of the weapon does have an affect on ability damage. I will check tomorrow to be certain though. Your point is valid.

I will add that there is one advantage to 1-handed weapons though. Their faster attack speed allows for more opportunities to critical on auto-attacks and since strength (Which, by the way, Marauders have a higher base strength at level 40 [227 to 197 at Rank 40 and no RP points], WLs have a higher initiative) is a much larger contributor to damage than the difference in the DPS value of the weapon. This means that to truly compare 1-handed and 2-handed weapons you need to consider critical frequency (See Gut Ripper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=49) and Pack Synergy (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9198) for additional comparison).




Thanks for the response to my savagery question although I feel the rudeness and personal attacks could likely have been omitted. I asked the question because I didn't know the answer and I won't learn without asking. I'd also like to point out that this is a comparison thread. I, personally, haven't asked for any nerfs or suggested any balancing measures here.

How am i being rude or personal? I'm not calling you an idiot.

I'm just calling it like it is... you're not looking at the big picture.

[Kriesha]

Sigh. :confused:

Again, you're basing your observations on 1 handed vs 2 handed weapons.

You're leaving out a huge variable which makes your entire argument null and void IMO. Why would a 2 handed class have the same damage and cost with higher base dps weapons? Think about it and maybe you can see why an 80 DPS 2 hander shouldn't have the same base ability as a 50 DPS 1 hander weapon.


You know that wielding 2 50 dps onehanders is roughly equal to 86 dps 2h weapon when using abilities? And that dual wielders get an innate 10% parry bonus while 2h users get no special bonus? So that those mighty 2handers you are raging about are actually worse than dual wielded weapons...

[zombieMarauder]

You know that wielding 2 50 dps onehanders is roughly equal to 86 dps 2h weapon when using abilities? And that dual wielders get an innate 10% parry bonus while 2h users get no special bonus? So that those mighty 2handers you are raging about are actually worse than dual wielded weapons...


That's Great.
Marauders don't dual wield technically, our off hand is pure white damage.

2handers get two slots with their weapons, which makes a huge difference.

Marauders due to the nature of having a mutated arm do not get:
1. A proc with their mutation. Most high level dual wield weapons get procs.
2. A tailsman slot = loss of stats.

So don't try that flawed logic. I think your ideas about damage are wrong as well.:rolleyes:

[Kriesha]

That's Great.
Marauders don't dual wield technically, our off hand is pure white damage.


Technically, you dual wield, since you get all the benefits of a dual wielded weapon.


2handers get two slots with their weapons, which makes a huge difference.


Some 2handers get two slots. Some don't.


I think your ideas about damage are wrong as well.:rolleyes:

If you don't believe me, next time you are at a keep, hit the door with Flail or Debilitate using Gift of Monstrosity (since it does not add any stats relevant to dealing damage) a few times and then do the same without a mutation.

[Seldoran]

You just see a bunch of abilities in a void and you have no clue how it applies in game. Thats why you have no right to call for nerfs or balance.


Now if only we can take this and apply it to every "Class Y vs Class X" thread, we might have some start in real progress.

[zombieMarauder]

If you don't believe me, next time you are at a keep, hit the door with Flail or Debilitate using Gift of Monstrosity (since it does not add any stats relevant to dealing damage) a few times and then do the same without a mutation.
What's that got to do with comparing marauder damage/costs and 1 handed main weapons directly with white lion 2 handed abilities? They are mirrors, not copies.

This debate is spurious.

Tysis is cherry picking information without putting all the variables in with a healthy dose of "poor order" on the side.


Flail scales with every point you put into monstrosity, so yes it does add "stats". You don't know how marauders work, or how our mutation work obviously. How can you say we have all the benefits of dual wield when I just told you we don't? Any noob marauder will tell you otherwise.

[Kriesha]

Flail scales with every point you put into monstrosity, so yes it does add "stats". You don't know how marauders work, or how our mutation work obviously. How can you say we have all the benefits of dual wield when I just told you we don't? Any noob marauder will tell you otherwise.

Having points in the Monstro tree boosts Flail damage no matter what mutation you are currently in. Gift of Monstrosity does not have strength or weaponskill on the created offhand weapon to skew the results of the proposed test. Hence why I suggested using that particular mutation for the test.

You saying marauders do not get dual wield benefits does not make it true. Easiest to prove is the parry. Look at the parry % on this image: http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq359/kr2pp/zomgparry.jpg. For DPS contribution, go and test yourself, do what I proposed in my previous post.

[Dricien]

Well..

Most of the good WLs I know run loner first of all..

And shouldn't melee DPS always be behind or sides of an enemy to avoid parry and block anyway?


I'd imagine you'd have flanking on all the time anyway, course I don't play a white lion.. but looking at it..

Wouldn't 25% from loner and 15% from flanking be sexy anyway?


And it only makes sense the marauder abilities would be stronger considered WLs get a pet. Throw loner on to fix the gap if you want to forget the lion.


On the White Lion I'm currently leveling, I have no problem out-dpsing marauders in T2, course thats different in T4.. at 40 my tactics would be:

Loner, Flanking, Blindsided!, and Brute Force


Just taking another look in the Axeman path, with Primal Fury, the damage you will be able to do will be boosted alot every 60 seconds too O_o


Jeez, sorry for all the edits, but looking at the Revenge! tactic, I might throw that on and send my lion to be killed right before pouncing!

So lets see, every minute a WL can have:

25% from loner, 15% from flanking, 25% from Revenge!, and 25% from Primal Fury..

Damn, I gotta level my white lion up..

[zombieMarauder]

Yah that's another good point.

Factoring in 2handers + pet damage = tysis is wrong.

[Tiara]

Well..

Most of the good WLs I know run loner first of all..

And shouldn't melee DPS always be behind or sides of an enemy to avoid parry and block anyway?


I'd imagine you'd have flanking on all the time anyway, course I don't play a white lion.. but looking at it..

Wouldn't 25% from loner and 15% from flanking be sexy anyway?


And it only makes sense the marauder abilities would be stronger considered WLs get a pet. Throw loner on to fix the gap if you want to forget the lion.


On the White Lion I'm currently leveling, I have no problem out-dpsing marauders in T2, course thats different in T4.. at 40 my tactics would be:

Loner, Flanking, Blindsided!, and Brute Force


Just taking another look in the Axeman path, with Primal Fury, the damage you will be able to do will be boosted alot every 60 seconds too O_o


Jeez, sorry for all the edits, but looking at the Revenge! tactic, I might throw that on and send my lion to be killed right before pouncing!

So lets see, every minute a WL can have:

25% from loner, 15% from flanking, 25% from Revenge!, and 25% from Primal Fury..

Damn, I gotta level my white lion up..

What will you have for the rest of the 50 sec? What will you have if your target actually knows to face you? What will you have if your pet dies when you are regaining health from a previous fight?

I know the WL is a good class but you can't judge it from a paper, you actually have to play it (like every other class) to see how the abilities and tactics works in-game and during diffrent scenarios. :)

[slood]

Mar don't have these limitations and they can come out of the gate running. As a WL, to be effective, I spend a great deal of time prepping my targets and creating a combat situation that favors the class' strengths. I can get into a general brawl, but my pet will die. Marauders are simply a better brawler. My WL plays more like a reverse Witch Elf/Witch Hunter because of the prep time and requirements to create a conducive combat environment for ourselves.

Or I can go loner without the pet and be a darn good brawler. I'll have much better single target DPS than a Mar but I give up my pet and by thi spoint, a Mar is simply better in every way from a group play POV.

So without your pet, you have better single target dps and can actually kill a healer? WL rule all mdps, Witch elves are a vague second, wh third, mara is fun but dead last.

The greatest strength of the WL isn't his damage. It's his mobility and ability to create opportunities in combat for himself. Powerful i will admit but it also comes at the price of sacrificed combat time, preparation and group utility. It's a great class, and the only truly functioning High Elf class, but it does a disservice to the Marauder to completely ignore his strengths; and the Marauder has them even if many of the players refuse to acknowledge it.

Pounce and fetch is far far greater than stealth in every setting. WL > mara, WL > WE, WL rules!!

Edit; I am loving my white lion and recommend it to any experienced player.

[zombieMarauder]

Yup, if you suck with a WL than it's you, not the class.

[Ayamo]

Yup, if you suck with a WL than it's you, not the class.

Most wl's don't even know their own class
/shrug

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248332

This thread is pretty much the proof.:rolleyes:

[Dricien]

What will you have for the rest of the 50 sec? What will you have if your target actually knows to face you? What will you have if your pet dies when you are regaining health from a previous fight?

I know the WL is a good class but you can't judge it from a paper, you actually have to play it (like every other class) to see how the abilities and tactics works in-game and during diffrent scenarios. :)

I've dueled on my DoK plenty, and its incredibly simple to get behind or on the sides of a player.

The WH I constantly duel parries everything up front, so I'm constantly moving behind and to the sides.

Unless its a tank with a shield, they'll try to get behind you also.

Any melee DPS who can't keep behind or on the side of a target needs practice. Because they're only at maybe 60% potential if you can't.

Even with just blindside on my T2 WL, its still no issue to get behind or on the sides of targets. You just gotta make them move to you, and unless they know exactly what you're going to do, it should be simple.

And if my pet dies, so what? I don't rely on any 1 tactic at all. If its really that much of a problem, I'd switch to brute strengt


And the other 50 seconds, you can just rip normally. Point is, WLs have all the potential to top the damage charts.



@Slood: yeah man, it's really great in the right hands. People seem to be yelling that they're worse than marauders cause they have to play better to top damage charts..

[Tysis]

Since nobody has done this here yet, here is the official 1.2 patch that hits the PTS next week:

Marauder

Bug Fixes:
* Gift of Savagery: This ability's tooltip will now better match the stats gained from the ability.
* Gift of Monstrosity: This ability's tooltip will now better match the stats gained from the ability.
* Gift of Brutality: This ability's tooltip will now better match the stats gained from the ability.
* Demolition: The cooldown listed on this ability's tooltip now matches the actual cooldown of the ability.
* Mutating Release: This ability now correctly gives a 10-second immunity to all roots and snares.
* Deeply Impaled: This ability's effect will no longer stack with itself. Additionally, this Tactic will now give the correct bonus when Impale is used.
* Drink Deeply: This Tactic will once again heal when Tzeentch's Cordial ends.
* Growing Instability: This Tactic will once again grant a bonus to critical hit at the correct health brackets.
* Convulsive Slashing: This ability will now behave correctly when interrupted.
* Wrecking Ball: This ability will now behave correctly when interrupted.
* Gut Ripper: This ability will once again cause the next ability used to critical hit.
* Wave of Horror: This ability's tooltip will now state the correct amount of Hate reduction.
* Wave of Terror: This ability will now state how large of an area it will affect.
Balance Changes:
* Deadly Clutch: The amount of health healed by this Tactic has been increased.
* Insane Whispers: This Tactic will now cause a 50% Disorient for 5 seconds.
* Terrible Embrace: This ability's build time has been reduced to 1 second, and its cooldown time increased to 30 seconds.
* Terrible Embrace: This ability's cost has been reduced. Additionally, it will now continue to build while moving.
* Thundering Blow: The Disorienting effect of this ability is now a 50% debuff.


White Lion

Bug Fixes:
* Pounce: You will now jump just to your target's side instead of directly on top of them, fixing several collision issues. The damage portion of the ability now fires more consistently.
* Whirling Axe: This ability will now behave correctly when interrupted.
* Full-Grown: The Tactic will now properly increase your pet's Wounds. Additionally, this ability's tooltip is now correct.
* Ensnare: Fixed a bug that prevented this ability's root effect from firing.
* Pack Synergy: Fixed a bug that allowed this Tactic to remain active after the pet was de-summoned.
Balance Changes:
* Pack Assault: This ability will now deal Spirit Damage.
* Fey Illusion: This ability will now debuff the target's autoattack speed. Additionally, this ability will no longer require a frontal positional, and will cost slightly more AP.
* Fetch: This ability's range has been reduced to 65 feet, and its cost has been reduced. Additionally, this ability's cooldown has been increased to 30 seconds.

Also (Very relevant and not to be forgotten):

* We have adjusted the way that the Disorient debuff will effect characters. Instead of increasing all ability cast times by a flat value, it will now increase cast times by a % of the total cast time of the spell. As a result, melee abilities and instant cast spells will no longer be affected by Disorient since their cast time is effectively 0 seconds. Specific abilities for each career affected by this change are noted below.

[zombieMarauder]

looks great to me.