Question about how hatred works

[Vankador]

I've been wondering how the mechanics work. Is it like a Warrior's rage in WoW where it builds up depending on how much you hit for, your crits, and how much damage you take in battle, or is this not known yet?

Also, how is it different from the Dwarf's grudge system?

[Rasek]

All we know so far is that the more you get hit the more hatred you get.

but thats too superficial to dwell in.

[Izen]

All I know is that they should give me a full hatred barr any time ! =p

[Vankador]

All we know so far is that the more you get hit the more hatred you get.

but thats too superficial to dwell in.

If you can only get hatred by getting beat on, than what's to stop your opponent from just ignoring you and going for anyone else first? I know you can physically block them from getting through to the squishies in certain scenerios, but from what I saw most of them have an open battle field where your enemies can just circle around you.

[Vid]

Taunts, they reduce the damage of the target you taunted to everyone else except you. I've read anything between a 30% and 50% damage reduction.

[Zeke]

If you can only get hatred by getting beat on, than what's to stop your opponent from just ignoring you and going for anyone else first? I know you can physically block them from getting through to the squishies in certain scenerios, but from what I saw most of them have an open battle field where your enemies can just circle around you.

Well they coooould ignore you but then they will end up dead from all your attacks and such.:D

[Foofmonger]

Taunts, they reduce the damage of the target you taunted to everyone else except you. I've read anything between a 30% and 50% damage reduction.

Not only that, but tanks have various CC abilities to complement their ability to tank.

So if they are snared, getting beat upon (by you), do less damage to everyone else (besides you), and keep getting stunned occasionally. They might just get pissed enough to attack you.

Its not about forcing people to attack tanks, its about making them attractive targets because they make everyone else (on their side) unattrictive to target.

[Vankador]

Well they coooould ignore you but then they will end up dead from all your attacks and such.:D

That's the thing, it would be in their best interest to ignore you and go for the healer or DPSer first.

By ignoring you, they ensure that you get no hatred (assuming you can only get hatred by being attacked) and thus you'll have no fuel to unleash your more powerful attacks.

So by ignoring you, they'll be able to pick off the larger threats, and after the larger threats are gone, they can focus on you. The larger threats will also be much easier to take down because they won't have your HP/Mitigation, so that's even more incentive.


But the taunt helps, I had forgotten about that ability in PvP. Now the question is, how many taunts do BGs get, how long do they last, how much do they cost, and what's their recast time. We probably won't know the answer to these questions for another four+ months.

[Lint]

Black guard is the most appealing tank class, if not only for it's "aggressive" play style that it's been promised. They would definitely need to generate hatred off their own attacks. How it sounds is a hope class, you have to hope someone is stupid enough to target you to even use your abilities. Boring.

[Nightsoldier]

That's the thing, it would be in their best interest to ignore you and go for the healer or DPSer first.

By ignoring you, they ensure that you get no hatred (assuming you can only get hatred by being attacked) and thus you'll have no fuel to unleash your more powerful attacks.

So by ignoring you, they'll be able to pick off the larger threats, and after the larger threats are gone, they can focus on you. The larger threats will also be much easier to take down because they won't have your HP/Mitigation, so that's even more incentive.


But the taunt helps, I had forgotten about that ability in PvP. Now the question is, how many taunts do BGs get, how long do they last, how much do they cost, and what's their recast time. We probably won't know the answer to these questions for another four+ months.

For this to work you would have completely and utterly ignore the tank. So your going to just not attack the guy whos making a wall infront of you STOPING you from getting to those squishier targets? I think a well played ironbreaker will be very effective at making you decide to either hit him or not attack him at all but hes gonna wail on you.

[Lint]

For this to work you would have completely and utterly ignore the tank. So your going to just not attack the guy whos making a wall infront of you STOPING you from getting to those squishier targets? I think a well played ironbreaker will be very effective at making you decide to either hit him or not attack him at all but hes gonna wail on you.

In RvR you wont be walling anything, it is far too open ended to protect anything efficiently.

[Nightsoldier]

In RvR you wont be walling anything, it is far too open ended to protect anything efficiently.

Ya i guess but still its totally ignoring a player, could let him cause some trouble.

[Kellaris]

That's the thing, it would be in their best interest to ignore you and go for the healer or DPSer first.


Hatred mechanic is similiar to grudge, so we can guess that BG will have some similiar actions. IB has at least 2 attacks that generate grudge. He has also a skill to protect a teammate by taking some portion of damage dealt to this teammate.
So most propably there will be some hatred generation even if BG will be ignored.
Also, enemy most propably will use AoE attacks that will hit You.
Consider some AoE attacks with 2h weapon (good reach and good strenght) and some basic CC.
I do not think that ignoring BG will be so good idea.

[Mutters]

Actually, I have heard plans that they're shipping special editions of W.A.R., and you'll have to pick up your special headset that monitors brain waves to see how much 'Hate' you generate IRL and translate it into the game. Suggestion? Punch self in the balls a lot and you'll be a pwnage king of HATRED.

http://www.ministryoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/emotiv-headset.jpg

[Vankador]

Ya i guess but still its totally ignoring a player, could let him cause some trouble.

It wouldn't be ignoring the player, it would be saving him for last.

Think about it, if you're hitting the BG:

-You're ignoring his other group mates, giving the true DPS classes the freedom to attack you from safety. The DPS classes WILL inflict more damage than the tanks (AKA the BG).

-You're letting the BG's healer unattended, giving him ample opportunities to heal the BG.

-By hitting the BG, you are reducing your overall DPS, because you'll be hitting a high HP/mitigation/defense plate class that won't die so easily, especially if by hitting him you're leaving his healer open to heal him.

And last but not least...

-You're providing the BG with more DPS!


So by hitting the BG, you're causing him to hit you back harder, you're letting the true DPS classes and the healers free to DPS on you and heal the tank.


Where as if you save the BG for last, you can focus on killing that pesky healer who is keeping everyone alive, and then you can focus on killing the DPS classes who are doing the most damage to you all the while providing minimal hatred to the poor BG who's standing there pounding on you with his hateless mediocre damage.

[Kellaris]

Where as if you save the BG for last, you can focus on killing that pesky healer who is keeping everyone alive, and then you can focus on killing the DPS classes who are doing the most damage to you all the while providing minimal hatred to the poor BG who's standing there pounding on you with his hateless mediocre damage.

We know nothing about BG skills so I can only guess keeping other tanks skills in mind.
When You will be attacking healer, BG will "protect" him and take part of damage dealt to healer on himself (hatred is growing). He will also taunt You and reduce Your DPS by 50%. Then He will use some basic CC or AoE attacks that in certain situation (lot of enemies in one place) may deal more damage than DPS'er, and will also build some hatred. In that time, The healer will do their best to avoitd Your attack using terrain and BG collision detection.

I'm not trying to say that attacking a healer is a bad tactic. But I'm sure that BG will have means to protect him. And longer You fight, more he hates You. Sooner or later You will regret that he is not dead. So maybe, just maybe it might be a good idea to overhelm BG before he will build his hatred. Of course he will build hatred faster in that situation, but he may not live long enough to use it.
If You will give him time to slowly build hatred and leve him on Your back.... Well, I hope You will regret that.

[Ganymed]

If you can only get hatred by getting beat on, than what's to stop your opponent from just ignoring you and going for anyone else first? I know you can physically block them from getting through to the squishies in certain scenerios, but from what I saw most of them have an open battle field where your enemies can just circle around you.

yes, thats a perfect tactic.

in theory.

in reality opponents always will attack black guards aswell; I played WoW quite a bit, it was the same there with the warrior class: a warrior with a healer was a beast, best tactic surely was to focus on the healer and ignore/CC the warrior. In reality though, in 8 out of 10 cases they attacked me (played a warrior), making it possible I could chop through them without any problems.

so there are a lot of people out there stupid enough to do the wrong thing in a certain situation, people that just attack the nearest opponent to them; besides, black guards will have a way better position than warriors in WoW had and still have: theres collision detection in this game, u have taunts that will have a huge impact.

[Ganymed]

It wouldn't be ignoring the player, it would be saving him for last.

Think about it, if you're hitting the BG:

-You're ignoring his other group mates, giving the true DPS classes the freedom to attack you from safety. The DPS classes WILL inflict more damage than the tanks (AKA the BG).

-You're letting the BG's healer unattended, giving him ample opportunities to heal the BG.

-By hitting the BG, you are reducing your overall DPS, because you'll be hitting a high HP/mitigation/defense plate class that won't die so easily, especially if by hitting him you're leaving his healer open to heal him.

And last but not least...

-You're providing the BG with more DPS!


So by hitting the BG, you're causing him to hit you back harder, you're letting the true DPS classes and the healers free to DPS on you and heal the tank.


Where as if you save the BG for last, you can focus on killing that pesky healer who is keeping everyone alive, and then you can focus on killing the DPS classes who are doing the most damage to you all the while providing minimal hatred to the poor BG who's standing there pounding on you with his hateless mediocre damage.

all that counts for every tank classes. its meant to be like that: tanks are the ones with most hp, most durability, there purpose is to protect their group members. regardless of what race u choose, if u attack the tank his groupmates always will be free to do what they want.

[Tlear]

You can taunt people reducing their damage to anyone but you by 50%.
You have ability to guard people which increases their defense.
Not to mention things like snares that you can use to force enemy to fight yourself.

I think BG will work best by Taunting BW or another ranged class. If BW starts burning you, you now got hate. If you does not you halved his damage and can still do normal sttack and such.

BTW way to deal with ironbreaker will probably be to focu fire on him with magic ranged dps Magus + Sorceress. He gets no grudge and that armor does nothing vs magic..

[Boulvae]

Obviously the Abilities exclusive to the black gaurd will let him do nasty things to you if you ignore him (taunts, etc. does not count, I mean BG EXCLUSIVE), and if you DO attack him you could prevent his nasty abilities from being unleashed but the damage he COULD deal while you attack him can be just as severe if your not prepared.

[Vankador]

It's still too early to really theorize about the BG mechanics. Hopefully in a few months we'll have enough information for a real discussion.

Right now all we know is they gain hate when they are attacked. We don't know how much hate will increase their utility/damage or if there are other ways of gaining hate.

So at the moment all we can do is speculate.


Hopefully December's newsletter will feature the BG.

[Cruniac]

Dont know if it has already been mentioned, but wouldnt BGs be very strong in PVE where they will constantly get hatred by mobs hitting him? :)

All facts aside I believe I put to much hope into this "Hatred" mechanic...I fear it will end up exactly like the rage mechanic in that other game...and that would be extremely sad. :(

[RX_Odhinn]

It wouldn't be ignoring the player, it would be saving him for last.

Think about it, if you're hitting the BG:

-You're ignoring his other group mates, giving the true DPS classes the freedom to attack you from safety. The DPS classes WILL inflict more damage than the tanks (AKA the BG).

-You're letting the BG's healer unattended, giving him ample opportunities to heal the BG.

-By hitting the BG, you are reducing your overall DPS, because you'll be hitting a high HP/mitigation/defense plate class that won't die so easily, especially if by hitting him you're leaving his healer open to heal him.

And last but not least...

-You're providing the BG with more DPS!


So by hitting the BG, you're causing him to hit you back harder, you're letting the true DPS classes and the healers free to DPS on you and heal the tank.


Where as if you save the BG for last, you can focus on killing that pesky healer who is keeping everyone alive, and then you can focus on killing the DPS classes who are doing the most damage to you all the while providing minimal hatred to the poor BG who's standing there pounding on you with his hateless mediocre damage.

I've often thought a lot about those same things. Well the majority of your points apply to all tanks, I definitely see what you're getting at. The Black Guard seems to be at an inherent disadvantage because ignoring him, like most people will ignore all the tanks, leaves him unable to benefit from his core mechanic of Hatred.

This is to say that the original plan for Hatred, which was indeed described as something that builds when the Black Guard gets attack, is still what they are going with. But I'm confident enough to think that Mythic saw the flaw and changed their mind a bit. In fact, when they made the Black Guard career video they said something a little different from what they said in Germany at the reveal of the elves; "Their job is to find the enemy and kill 'em. They are basically very, very dangerous, really hard to kill, and when they get close to you they deal out tons of damage. The more they hate you, the more damage and misery they will pile upon you. And you know what? They hate everybody, all the time, forever!"

To me, this most closely means, since Paul has a way of overusing hyperbole, that Black Guards will have some kind of hatred aura. The closer you get to his actual self, the more hatred he generates. Keep at a distance and you won't wind up in three pieces. Now it would be especially cool if the amount of targets that surround the Black Guard directly influence how much hatred he gets or how fast it builds.

[Makolif]

I've often thought a lot about those same things. Well the majority of your points apply to all tanks, I definitely see what you're getting at. The Black Guard seems to be at an inherent disadvantage because ignoring him, like most people will ignore all the tanks, leaves him unable to benefit from his core mechanic of Hatred.

This is to say that the original plan for Hatred, which was indeed described as something that builds when the Black Guard gets attack, is still what they are going with. But I'm confident enough to think that Mythic saw the flaw and changed their mind a bit. In fact, when they made the Black Guard career video they said something a little different from what they said in Germany at the reveal of the elves; "Their job is to find the enemy and kill 'em. They are basically very, very dangerous, really hard to kill, and when they get close to you they deal out tons of damage. The more they hate you, the more damage and misery they will pile upon you. And you know what? They hate everybody, all the time, forever!"

To me, this most closely means, since Paul has a way of overusing hyperbole, that Black Guards will have some kind of hatred aura. The closer you get to his actual self, the more hatred he generates. Keep at a distance and you won't wind up in three pieces. Now it would be especially cool if the amount of targets that surround the Black Guard directly influence how much hatred he gets or how fast it builds.


That would have to be a RvR only ability. Imagine a group of a few healers and the rest BG's going for PvE. You pull one mob each with the BG's and tank them while you fight bosses and all the BG's will get hatred from all the mobs - being able to deal outrageous damage to the boss. :P Would be fun though, hehe, escpecially since I'm gonna be a BG myself.

[Ganymed]

That would have to be a RvR only ability. Imagine a group of a few healers and the rest BG's going for PvE. You pull one mob each with the BG's and tank them while you fight bosses and all the BG's will get hatred from all the mobs - being able to deal outrageous damage to the boss. :P Would be fun though, hehe, escpecially since I'm gonna be a BG myself.

all depends on how big the hatred's effect really can get, so how much more dmg the BG can deal or which devastating attacks he can perform with high "hatred-bar".

[Boulvae]

From what I get it's either an aura, or it's him getting, "oh crap...," abilities that if you don't kill him or conecentrate then he'll be doing the nasty, or stuff that'd turn the tide of battle to a noticable degree (not like, YOU LOSE!!! kinda stuff, but more like a group heal ability or something else).

[Lord Tareq]

(not like, YOU LOSE!!! kinda stuff, but more like a group heal ability or something else).

Hehe, perhaps the enemy see a "Countdown to Doom" appear above the Black Guards head. When they haven't killed him before it reaches zero they die :mrgreen:

[randiriel]

I think hatred is going to work in 2 different ways. From the aspect of what ive seen about the BG lore, they HATE everyone, just they hate the enemy more then their "friends". I see the BG hatred working as both, Oh you hit me, ok, im going to slice your head off, put it on a pike, and let you watch me mudilate your still bleeding courpse. And to the lesser degree, I hate you, your by me, time to die. type thing..

so basically the BG will gain say 1 point of hate for every enemy thats bye them. So lets say 10 order are by them, they would get 10 hate "points" every x seconds with in a certain range. Now lets say an order attacks them, for every attack the BG would say get 10 points. So if you arnt directly attacking them, they will gain hatred slower, but they are still gaining it. But if you attack them, you really pissed them off now.

would add a whole new aspect to them in pvp. Charge into the order, now you have a decision. do you attack him and fuel his hatred so he kill someone faster, but you kill him 2. or do you focus on other people. And let him build, knowing that the pwn train is leaving the station, but not knowing exactly when its going to hit.

[ChosenOne]

Honestly now with blackguards held out of beta, we really dont know what hatred will work like or if it will be replaced by some other mechanic. Why else would they keep blackguards out of beta? Armor options? yeah right. The biggest question everyone has had is how does hatred work exactly? Sounds like it makes the BG much more difficult to play as a tank and more likely a heavily armored dps/non-healing support class.

Perhaps they are changing this entirely to make it more tankish. We really dont know but questions about their hatred really cant be answered until this mystery is somewhat solved.

[Slates]

If you can only get hatred by getting beat on, than what's to stop your opponent from just ignoring you and going for anyone else first? I know you can physically block them from getting through to the squishies in certain scenerios, but from what I saw most of them have an open battle field where your enemies can just circle around you.

I really dont have anything constructive to add, but i would like to ask a question:
'Can Black guards only block people in combat? Is it an ability or can everyone block everyone?'

Im just thinking how 'lol' it will be when people start blocking doors and going afk to have a wank or a bit to eat...

[e0r]

chances are they will give black guard an ability that is similar to iron breakers.
make it so attacking the black guards team gives him some hatred, and he will probably have other abilities that generate hatred, and other things like that.

basically making it so ignoring him really isnt an option.

[NewKid]

does it bother anyone else that Mythic has kept BG soo vague...i'm waiting for a big podcast on them, they need to explain hatred because the BG is all about the hatred, we all wanna play a class that we dont really even know how the mecanics work we just know that we like the idea of an agility based tank and thats it

with or without hatred, you cant just ignore a BG

[Spifnar]

Keep in mind that BG are going to have some stuns, knockdowns and snares just like other melee classes. As well as tank taunts.

That will make them very hard to ignore if they are peeling melee off your support/DPS. And if you want to CC one (snare/root/stun/etc), you have to hit them with at least one attack.

They may be slightly less effective killing ranged attackers who are focusing someone else, but I don't think they are in the "ignoreable" category

[Kharlene]

It wouldn't be ignoring the player, it would be saving him for last.

Think about it, if you're hitting the BG:

-You're ignoring his other group mates, giving the true DPS classes the freedom to attack you from safety. The DPS classes WILL inflict more damage than the tanks (AKA the BG).

-You're letting the BG's healer unattended, giving him ample opportunities to heal the BG.

-By hitting the BG, you are reducing your overall DPS, because you'll be hitting a high HP/mitigation/defense plate class that won't die so easily, especially if by hitting him you're leaving his healer open to heal him.

And last but not least...

-You're providing the BG with more DPS!


So by hitting the BG, you're causing him to hit you back harder, you're letting the true DPS classes and the healers free to DPS on you and heal the tank.


Where as if you save the BG for last, you can focus on killing that pesky healer who is keeping everyone alive, and then you can focus on killing the DPS classes who are doing the most damage to you all the while providing minimal hatred to the poor BG who's standing there pounding on you with his hateless mediocre damage.

What's funny is you're approaching this as if this very scenario has not occurred with tanks in PvP about... an infinite amount of times already... It doesn't always work to merely ignore the tank and go straight for the healer or main DPS class. Why? Because you're not putting into consideration what the other guys are doing, you know, the team whose healer or DPS class you're attacking. And so you ignored the tank, great good for you, do bear in mind now that will have someone smacking you in the back free to work their positional attacks on you as well.

You're approaching this as if all they're going to be doing is standing around all dumbfounded like someone crapped in their hands when you suddenly ignore their tank and go for their healer. Naturally, like with any half-decent organized PvP team, they will have thought of this and their teammates will not only be CCing the idiot attacking their healer or DPS class but your other teammates as well. Plus, the tanks in WAR, like others in this thread have mentioned, will have taunts - yes, taunts that will actually force you the PC - your character - to focus on them first, on top of having some basic CC abilities and attacks, and to add more to it, like the other classes have a couple abilities/attacks that give them a boost (like the IB's giving them a shot of Grudge to kick things off), so it can easily be assumed the BG will have the same for their Hatred mechanic.