Bane Shield... the next Electromagnet.

[solthar]

Bane Shield

Not in effect, but in sheer game breaking ability. Every time I try to take a fort, it seems there are tank walls with stacked bane shields. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing about it in concept....

... the reach, though, is just waaay to damn far.

Even if you manage to get halfway across whatever zone you are in at the moment, it will still damage you. There is no range - it is, in effect an ability with infinite range. It totally nullifies any way of countering a tank wall, as any DPS class can't... well, DPS without dying - even with a dedicated healer.

What do I want? Easy! Give the damn thing a range it can hit you at.

And if any order classes have a mirror of that ability, add a range to that too.

[trickykid]

Bane Shield (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8337)
And if any order classes have a mirror of that ability, add a range to that too.

LOL. The Order spell was taken care of a couple weeks ago in a "Hot Fix". Rather than do that, they just made it so the Order version of this ability no longer stacks and only procs once every 2 seconds. Cool, huh?

Apparently it made life really rough on witch elves. So Mythic had to weigh the consequences of buffing witch elves or nerfing the spell giving them a rough time.

[Pickle]

KotBS still have shield of the sun, which is essentially the same thing.

[poorpeasant]

The issue is actually with this tactic. http://wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8364

[WNxKenwayy]

Can someone grab some SS of Bane Shield stacking? I've heard different things but never seen any SS of it doing so. OYG was so easy to prove it was stacking surely it wouldn't be as hard.

BS only procs if you damage the Chosen....sooooo the range is as far as whatever yours is really. If you have a spell that can reach accross half a zone, I think THAT is the bigger issue.

[Erehain]

Here you go.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9154&d=1230315272

[henil]

Bane Shield (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8337)
Not in effect, but in sheer game breaking ability. Every time I try to take a fort, it seems there are tank walls with stacked bane shields. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing about it in concept....

... the reach, though, is just waaay to damn far.

Even if you manage to get halfway across whatever zone you are in at the moment, it will still damage you. There is no range - it is, in effect an ability with infinite range. It totally nullifies any way of countering a tank wall, as any DPS class can't... well, DPS without dying - even with a dedicated healer.

What do I want? Easy! Give the damn thing a range it can hit you at.

And if any order classes have a mirror of that ability, add a range to that too.

lol i bet u also want a lazer that 1 shots every tank.

k but on the serious note, the ability has 30 sec cd, lasts 10 sec, 17 sec with tactic. it is affected by armor. it does not trigger on dots or channeled spells. dots go thru armor :O! bingo!

its basically the only thing we have to counter AoE RDPS in keep seige, and not even that much because a tank can put a gaurd on the RDPS and its cut by half already.

and to answer ur question: yes the ability does stack, it does have an infinite range, and it is also affected by strength :O!

now like somebody else already stated, knights get the same ability, and guess what? it stacks too, it has an infinite range as well. i dont know about the str part.

now that OYG has been nerfed they need to start using some of the normal spells u know :P

[solthar]

Thank you, poor, for pointing that out

Dire Shielding

Yes, What I mean is the combination of the two is waaay to potent. Take, for instance, the typical fortress siege. You break through the first door, and there is the typical tank wall behind it. BWs, ENGs, etc try nuking them and throw down some AOE DoTs. The casters start taking heavy damage, and decides to back off incase someone's sniping them. They start running... *Damage Tick* and running... *Damage Tick* and running... *Damage Tick* before dying.

I'd love a maximum backlash range, or even better would be something akin to the engineers Explosive Shots morale ability, in being able to only tick once per second.

I'm just getting dang tired of having two massive forces facing each other at a keep not doing anything, and not being able to do anything.

[Erehain]

Is it only me or i dont see Knight having same tactic as this one http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8364 ?

[solthar]

Is it only me or i dont see Knight having same tactic as this one http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8364 ?

I've been through each and every one of their abilities, and nope. Nothing even close. Pity, that. If there had been no one would attack anyone else in large battles, and you could be sure as hell something would be done.

[Aircool]

There's a way to counter a tank wall - but I'll be buggered if I'm letting any order players in on it.

Note, it just takes a little bit of latteral thinking - pretty much every tactic has it's counter and the Bane Shield Wall is no exception.

[Herodotus]

There's a way to counter a tank wall - but I'll be buggered if I'm letting any order players in on it.

Note, it just takes a little bit of latteral thinking - pretty much every tactic has it's counter and the Bane Shield Wall is no exception.


So you admit it's stacking and needs an OYG style nerf? Admission of guilt?

[Didier]

lol i bet u also want a lazer that 1 shots every tank.

k but on the serious note, the ability has 30 sec cd, lasts 10 sec, 17 sec with tactic. it is affected by armor. it does not trigger on dots or channeled spells. dots go thru armor :O! bingo!

its basically the only thing we have to counter AoE RDPS in keep seige, and not even that much because a tank can put a gaurd on the RDPS and its cut by half already.

and to answer ur question: yes the ability does stack, it does have an infinite range, and it is also affected by strength :O!

now like somebody else already stated, knights get the same ability, and guess what? it stacks too, it has an infinite range as well. i dont know about the str part.

now that OYG has been nerfed they need to start using some of the normal spells u know :P


Classic Destro Counter-whine.

Check the abilities of your mirror-class first before posting.

KotbS is missing the tactic. Also KotbS has none of the Siege-Support-Skills such as "Deflect Oil" "Strengthen Door" and so on.


Thanks for your posting and please try to be more objective in the future.

Edit:
Making my statement nicer.

[Herodotus]

Classic Destro Counter-whine.

Check the abilities of your mirror-class first before posting.

KotbS is missing the tactic. Also KotbS has none of the Siege-Support-Skills such as "Deflect Oil" "Strengthen Door" and so on.


There is no credibility in this post.


Thanks for your posting and please try to be more objective in the future.

/endthread

good day sirs

[Didier]

I'd also like to have feedback from AoE Engis and BWs AoEing and DS is started by several chosens.

Are you really insta-gibbed if DS is enhanced by tactic and Chosens coordinate as when to start DS?

[Fiale]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8599/war2008122820043945hv8.jpg

Over 1000 damage reflected to me in 1 second. In this seige I would cast 1 AoE spell then have to walk away until it ended else I would die. All the BW's and Engineers around me were suffering the same, no Destrution AoE classes have to contend with this from order where we are literally committing suicide.

[knightofblazingfun]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8599/war2008122820043945hv8.jpg

Over 1000 damage reflected to me in 1 second. In this seige I would cast 1 AoE spell then have to walk away until it ended else I would die. All the BW's and Engineers around me were suffering the same, no Destrution AoE classes have to contend with this from order where we are literally committing suicide.

See pre-OYG nerf.

Which was even worse since it was on 24/7.

[Fiale]

See pre-OYG nerf.

Which was even worse since it was on 24/7.

This is the point. The ability is to strong, no matter how many tactic slots it takes up when attacking a keep/fort you will swap it in. Not being able to cast more than one spell every 21 seconds otherwise dieing from them is not balance.

[razor39999]

Classic Destro Counter-whine.

Check the abilities of your mirror-class first before posting.

KotbS is missing the tactic. Also KotbS has none of the Siege-Support-Skills such as "Deflect Oil" "Strengthen Door" and so on.


Thanks for your posting and please try to be more objective in the future.

Edit:
Making my statement nicer.

Errm the "Siege-Support-Skills" you mention are RR based, you'll get them at 30 (I think) and 45 (of this I'm sure).

But yeah they should just make Bane Shield affect everyone in the 30 feet radius but make it so only the highest level shield triggers and the others are just disregarded. Also probably lower the damage.

[Didier]

Errm the "Siege-Support-Skills" you mention are RR based, you'll get them at 30 (I think) and 45 (of this I'm sure).

But yeah they should just make Bane Shield affect everyone in the 30 feet radius but make it so only the highest level shield triggers and the others are just disregarded. Also probably lower the damage.


I played a chosen on Helmgard up to lvl 21 / RR 19 and got the first support skill deflect oil.

On Erengard my KotbS has Rank 25/ RR 23 and still hasn't gotten "Deflect Oil".
I doubt that it is fair... Or have the devs just forgotten to give KotbS the skills?

I'll just Lvl up more and see.

[pruneboy]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8599/war2008122820043945hv8.jpg

Over 1000 damage reflected to me in 1 second. In this seige I would cast 1 AoE spell then have to walk away until it ended else I would die. All the BW's and Engineers around me were suffering the same, no Destrution AoE classes have to contend with this from order where we are literally committing suicide.


This is so stupid. Looking at that SS It's pretty clear that:

1. Bane shield/Dire shield should not stack between muliple chosens.
2. No reflected damage (on any career/ability) should reflect more than the damage dealt in the first place.

Sad thing is that I was looking foward to dinging 35 and spec BS/DS. Hoping to reflect maybe 500 of a 1500 aoe attack. :( Another chosen ability that will be 'fixed' I guess.

[Didier]

See pre-OYG nerf.

Which was even worse since it was on 24/7.

The difference is not so big imho.
With OYG everyone knew it will be on when a KotbS was in the group.

DS just has the little bit of extra surprise as it isn't active all the time.

Edit:
And it adds to the 3 possilbe simultaneous Auras.

[Delmania]

Is it only me or i dont see Knight having same tactic as this one http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8364 ?

The mirror ability to Bane Shield is Shield of the Sun, for which knights receive the tactics Sunfury and Sun's Blessing. The reason why knights don't get anything like Dire Shielding is because On Your Guard! is far more powerful than Discordant Fluctuation. However, if we're going to play a game of ability compare, remember that as mirror classes, both knights and chosen will fulfill the role of group support tank via different means. Whereas chosen are offensive in their design, knights are far more defensive. So, let's take into account talents like Encouraged Aim, Dirty Tricks, and Focused Mending for examples of the availability of group oriented tactics knights get.

[Didier]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8599/war2008122820043945hv8.jpg

Over 1000 damage reflected to me in 1 second. In this seige I would cast 1 AoE spell then have to walk away until it ended else I would die. All the BW's and Engineers around me were suffering the same, no Destrution AoE classes have to contend with this from order where we are literally committing suicide.

lol...
At 20:04:05 till 20:04:11 3 killing blows by the "Dire Shielding".

And Corinthian is on a killing spree =D

[Didier]

The mirror ability to Bane Shield (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8337) is Shield of the Sun (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8025), for which knights receive the tactics Sunfury (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8059) and Sun's Blessing (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8045). The reason why knights don't get anything like Dire Shielding (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8364) is because On Your Guard! (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8015) is far more powerful than Discordant Fluctuation (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8327). However, if we're going to play a game of ability compare, remember that as mirror classes, both knights and chosen will fulfill the role of group support tank via different means. Whereas chosen are offensive in their design, knights are far more defensive. So, let's take into account talents like Encouraged Aim (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8054), Dirty Tricks (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8057), and Focused Mending (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8060) for examples of the availability of group oriented tactics knights get.

There is no tactic that widens Shield of the Sun up to 30ft.

You are doing exactly the same as many knights did pre-OYG-nerf.
The gamebreaking mechanics are also in DS as were in OYG, but you'll have to enhance it with a tactic slot.

The only big difference is that order until now hasn't cryed as loud yet as Destro did then.

Thats the case.

Edit:
Why is OYG far more powerfull than DS when defending a keep MDPs sits in the backrows?
Why is OYG more powerfull than DS because its perma on? OYG is of no surprise, you can calculate with it. With DS you never know if one has it or not.

P.S.:
Please everyone look at both sides of the medal. In a good posting one said: "Both sides should have fun.". So please everyone let us try to work for a fair game where battles are hard and a real joy when one has won.

[Delmania]

There is no tactic that widens Shield of the Sun up to 30ft.

You are doing exactly the same as many knights did pre-OYG-nerf.
The gamebreaking mechanics are also in DS as were in OYG, but you'll have to enhance it with a tactic slot.

I was actually rather quiet about On Your Guard!, as I would have preferred for Mythic to boost Discordant Fluctuation to be all ranged damage. That notwithstanding, you are picking out a single tactic, and asking why do knights have no similar ability. It's called "ability compare" and it's a flawed argument. Knights and chosen are mirror classes, meaning that share the mechanic and role, but they will only share about 40% of the same abilities. Any comparison between the 2 needs to be on the total package. Dire Shielding is the only tactic we have the provides some sort of defensive/passive bonus to our group. Knights have 3, and arguably, they are far better.

The only big difference is that order until now hasn't cryed as loud yet as Destro did then.

Thats the case.

No it wasn't until On Your Guard! was nerfed with no corresponding chosen nerf that people start whining. Many people on this forum labor under the delusion that Mythic favors Destruction and will cater to their whines. It's a catch 22 situation.

Edit:
Why is OYG far more powerfull than DS when defending a keep MDPs sits in the backrows?
Why is OYG more powerfull than DS because its perma on? OYG is of no surprise, you can calculate with it. With DS you never know if one has it or not.

Why are you comparing 2 different abilities, a tactic and an aura?


Please everyone look at both sides of the medal. In a good posting one said: "Both sides should have fun.". So please everyone let us try to work for a fair game where battles are hard and a real joy when one has won.

How cute, and naive. Are you new to the Internet?

[spriteboy]

Also it should be pointed out that Baneshield is spirit damage that you can resist. Since alot of spell users seem to be crying that they do almost no damage anymore because everyone is stacking resists, maybe they should up their spirit resists so Baneshield does as pathetic damage as they claim their spells do.

[Didier]

I was actually rather quiet about On Your Guard! (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8015), as I would have preferred for Mythic to boost Discordant Fluctuation (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8327) to be all ranged damage. That notwithstanding, you are picking out a single tactic, and asking why do knights have no similar ability. It's called "ability compare" and it's a flawed argument. Knights and chosen are mirror classes, meaning that share the mechanic and role, but they will only share about 40% of the same abilities. Any comparison between the 2 needs to be on the total package.

I'm not picking on the tactic. But i'm picking on the same desing-flaw.
OYG was not ok, and imho DS is also not ok. DS stacks as it seems and you can get insta-gibbed.

Dire Shielding (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8364) is the only tactic we have the provides some sort of defensive/passive bonus to our group. Knights have 3, and arguably, they are far better.

You're neglecting following:
- Discordant Fluctuation stacks with dire shielding
- Corrupting Wrath 120 Toughness for Chosen and equal for KotbS-Aura (Lvl 40)
- Discordant Instability 378 Resists for Chosen and equal for KotbS-Aura (Lvl 40)
- Dreadful Terror destroys 9 AP/ 3 sec - to glory produces 15 AP / 5 sec. So both 3/sec (No scaling)

So please be so kind and point the BIG differences out that you may have found, so that others can also see them and i learn something new.

How cute, and naive. Are you new to the Internet?

I'm not new dude, but i've seen many good peole posting here. Be ist Destro or Order.
Do you want do improve? I'd be glad to see some good data from you, and the evidence that i am wrong.

Edit:
Typo

Edit 2:
Typo

[Didier]

Also it should be pointed out that Baneshield is spirit damage that you can resist. Since alot of spell users seem to be crying that they do almost no damage anymore because everyone is stacking resists, maybe they should up their spirit resists so Baneshield does as pathetic damage as they claim their spells do.

I'll have a look in that. Thanks.

[Darrett]

Also it should be pointed out that Baneshield is spirit damage that you can resist. Since alot of spell users seem to be crying that they do almost no damage anymore because everyone is stacking resists, maybe they should up their spirit resists so Baneshield does as pathetic damage as they claim their spells do.

This is important to remember.

Though the stacking needs to go, I don't see any justification for an OYG-style nerf.

[PinkysBrain]

BTW ... looking at that screenshot, lets take the damage at 20:03:48 ...

Some of the Chosen were saying Dire Shielding would only hit once per AoE ... I'm not seeing it. His Napalm grenade hits 4 people and gets dodged by a 5th, he gets hit by 5 bane shields from Corinthian. AFAICS it hits once per target, just like OYG did. Not once per AoE like some of the Chosen players were saying.

Unless there is something I'm missing I think a mod should reopen the thread in the class balance forum, because it was closed on a completely wrong note ...

AFAICS it can be stacked higher than OYG could, out of group, works on all attacks, unlike what the Chosen say does reflect once per target and in the case of the BW also stacks with the damage from DF ... saying this is like OYG doesn't do it justice, this is worse than OYG ever was.

PS. as for mitigation, it can crit and gets bonus damage ... hell it can probably even proc Sorc/DoK damage procs since it works like a normal attack.

[Euler]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8599/war2008122820043945hv8.jpg

Over 1000 damage reflected to me in 1 second. In this seige I would cast 1 AoE spell then have to walk away until it ended else I would die. All the BW's and Engineers around me were suffering the same, no Destrution AoE classes have to contend with this from order where we are literally committing suicide.


And thats only 2 Bane Shields, imagine if there were 3 or 4 on?

[JM01]

From what I'm reading on this thread aren't people making the comparison of OYG and BS incorrectly. What I mean is isn't it wrong in comparing the 2 because they are not the mirror skills of each other? From what I remember the better comparison would be BS to Shield of the Sun as I know those are the mirror skills of the classes.

Either way I do think that bane shield does need work but there is a slight workaround to it, BS can shattered by tanks that have shatter enhancement. So if you are a tank going up a Chosen tank wall make sure to use Shatter Enhancement on as many tanks as possible.

[salom]

I still dont think em should of been nerfed. And I really dont see any reason for this skill to be nerfed either. How about instead of all the crying people learn to play. So what that they have the tactic. I think the issue here is mindless engi's spamming aoe dots on everything hoping to leech renoun without making any real contribution to the battle. ITs funny to hear it from an engi (the op) too about how the electromagnet nerf was needed. get outta here you fake engi, go back to being a dot-bot.

[PinkysBrain]

From what I'm reading on this thread aren't people making the comparison of OYG and BS incorrectly. What I mean is isn't it wrong in comparing the 2 because they are not the mirror skills of each other? From what I remember the better comparison would be BS to Shield of the Sun as I know those are the mirror skills of the classes.
OYG was nerfed because it stacked, caused too much damage to AoE using melee classes and caused too much damage to fast hitting melee classes.

DS does all that and more.

If Destruction can stack an ally damage shield so high that each and every attack reflects more damage than it inflicts and AoE is suicide there is no reason for order to even try anything else than coordinated morale victories and fetching in open terrain ... any strategy which involves close quarter combat using normal attacks against more than a couple destruction players will result in an almost certain loss once Destruction adjusts fully to it's win button.

PS. to the people who wonder why it's only becoming an issue now, before 1.06 DS did very little damage for various reasons ... so even stacked it was hard to make it count.

[Didier]

OYG was nerfed because it stacked, caused too much damage to AoE using melee classes and caused too much damage to fast hitting melee classes.

DS does all that and more.

If Destruction can stack an ally damage shield so high that each and every attack reflects more damage than it inflicts and AoE is suicide there is no reason for order to even try anything else than coordinated morale victories and fetching in open terrain ... any strategy which involves close quarter combat using normal attacks against more than a couple destruction players will result in an almost certain loss once Destruction adjusts fully to it's win button.

PS. to the people who wonder why it's only becoming an issue now, before 1.06 DS did very little damage for various reasons ... so even stacked it was hard to make it count.

/true and signed although i'd like to gather more data concernig resistances and complete resists

Can someone from order stick his heads with destros together to make a planed testrun, so we can truly say how it works?

[Xandax]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8599/war2008122820043945hv8.jpg

Over 1000 damage reflected to me in 1 second. In this seige I would cast 1 AoE spell then have to walk away until it ended else I would die. All the BW's and Engineers around me were suffering the same, no Destrution AoE classes have to contend with this from order where we are literally committing suicide.


Good screenshot of what is a rather large issue for Order in keep defence.

[Fiale]

I still dont think em should of been nerfed. And I really dont see any reason for this skill to be nerfed either. How about instead of all the crying people learn to play. So what that they have the tactic. I think the issue here is mindless engi's spamming aoe dots on everything hoping to leech renoun without making any real contribution to the battle. ITs funny to hear it from an engi (the op) too about how the electromagnet nerf was needed. get outta here you fake engi, go back to being a dot-bot.

Sorry but your post is just mindless.

In my combat log i posted - 9 people died to baneshield, I stopped doing any dps as I was killing myself, but obviously others still were AoE'ing the doors and attackers (thats what you do as defenders) - for BW's also getting hit by backlash they may as well just quit and go home. The damage Order get hit is getting out of hand. It did not matter before due to Chosen not using the ability, now they all know and are nearly all using it.

This means Order can no longer AoE in defence without killing ourselves... wheras Destruction are as free as ever to AoE the living hell out of Order.... thats not balance no matter how you want to portray it.

[Zarovich]

I do not believe that Bane Shield stacks with other Chosen's using the same ability in a group, I think the more powerful one will override the other. Because the Chosen is a mirror of the Knights does not warrant them to get this tactic ability. If that was the case the Knights have a number of abilities I would like to have also.
Dire Shielding is limited to a 30ft range and is only helpful in limited situations. As a Chosen I do not have the Dire Shielding tactic, the ability is far too limited to spend a point on and waste a tactic slot for.

[Didier]

I do not believe that Bane Shield stacks with other Chosen's using the same ability in a group, I think the more powerful one will override the other. Because the Chosen is a mirror of the Knights does not warrant them to get this tactic ability. If that was the case the Knights have a number of abilities I would like to have also.
Dire Shielding is limited to a 30ft range and is only helpful in limited situations. As a Chosen I do not have the Dire Shielding tactic, the ability is far too limited to spend a point on and waste a tactic slot for.

Then make a date with someone from order to test it out and help us get the data.
You have the chance to proof we are wrong!

[PinkysBrain]

I do not believe that Bane Shield stacks with other Chosen's using the same ability in a group, I think the more powerful one will override the other.
It almost certainly does, just look at the screenshot. The damage around 20:03:48 is very hard to explain otherwise.

[Erehain]

If you were to look around you would see me posting screenie with BS stacking. Just so you wont miss it again im gonna post it again.


Forum link http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9154&d=1230315272

and Imageshack in case one wont work http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=areneys001tw0.jpg

[henil]

Classic Destro Counter-whine.

Check the abilities of your mirror-class first before posting.

KotbS is missing the tactic. Also KotbS has none of the Siege-Support-Skills such as "Deflect Oil" "Strengthen Door" and so on.


Thanks for your posting and please try to be more objective in the future.

Edit:
Making my statement nicer.

relax bro ;) i play order too, so dont give me the destro counter crap, i am not a fan boy.

and i dont think u read my post, i mentioned a few good counters to bane shield. it is nothing like OYG stacking because OYG could not be migtated, this spell can be. OYG was an aura aka it was up for almost 24/7, this 1 lasts for 17 sec via 2 tactic slots.

anyways i did not know that knobs dont get the tactic, thats not our fault thats mythics, u should send a feedback.

so what i am trying to get from other ppl on this forum is that they want bane shield to be nerfed so that they can aoe spam the crap out of offense? Bane shield's damage can be easily countered with gaurd. seriously when u guys defend keep you should ask tanks to gaurd you (rdps).

u guys fail to realize the bigger picture, which is that bane shield is on a cooldown, most chosens forget to refresh it, most chosens forget to spec for it, some even forget they have it.

btw just fyi, a bw aoe dots doesnt affect bane shield or discord fluctuation.

[PinkysBrain]

so what i am trying to get from other ppl on this forum is that they want bane shield to be nerfed so that they can aoe spam the crap out of offense?
Like say Destruction can do to order offense?
Bane shield's damage can be easily countered with gaurd. seriously when u guys defend keep you should ask tanks to gaurd you (rdps).Stacked high enough (not difficult since it works out of group) nothing counters Dire Shielding, it has no counters ...
u guys fail to realize the bigger picture, which is that bane shield is on a cooldown, most chosens forget to refresh it, most chosens forget to spec for it, some even forget they have it.BWs learned fast enough to use detonate, Chosen are learning fast to use Dire Shielding.

Win buttons win, this is a bigger win button than detonate ever was.
aoe dots doesnt affect bane shield or discord fluctuation.All fine and well, but RoF is not a dot and it's the largest component of AoE damage a BW does (although not for long, it will be suicide soon enough in any but the smallest scale encounters).

The longer this festers the worse the shock to the Chosen community will be when it is taken away ... and the more order players will melt away.

[martyr1777]

Looking at the recent screenshot posted I do see BS from 2 different Chosen hitting the Engineer so maybe it should have the stacking removed just like OYG.

However, I still say maybe to that and no to any other nerf of it because of a couple differences.

WE all know BS is the Chosen only unless you spec for a tactic and slot it, no small price, but it does affect those outside the group I beleive. BS also is only on for 10 out of 20 seconds, unless you get another tactic (no thanks), and has to be triggered regularly, using up AP's and a GCD. OYG (since this was nerf'ed and that nerf is the prime reason for calling out BS) is a group affecting aura that is always on, period.

The other big difference I noticed in the screenshot, BS is mitigated while OTG is -not-. Minor difference to clothies, but the medium armor types and tanks, that makes a big differenece.

You take those things into account and BS isn't so OP'ed. But there is an argument for it not stackng.

[solthar]

With my engy and a WP last night

Throwing down just a napalm grenade required the WPs full attention to keep me alive, throwing down all my AoE DoTs? While not instant death, it is pretty much a guaranteed one and is akin to grabbing a keep lords aggro for the full duration of your dots, with no tank to pull it off of you.

The only real way around it would be to cast all your dots, die, and have the healer rez you.

[martyr1777]

With my engy and a WP last night

Throwing down just a napalm grenade required the WPs full attention to keep me alive, throwing down all my AoE DoTs? While not instant death, it is pretty much a guaranteed one and is akin to grabbing a keep lords aggro for the full duration of your dots, with no tank to pull it off of you.

The only real way around it would be to cast all your dots, die, and have the healer rez you.

No, a better way around it is to cast whatever, if you get hit by BS you wait. Cast again after 8-10 sec and you'll probably be ok. Because BS has a limited time span.

[Balcor]

Looking at the recent screenshot posted I do see BS from 2 different Chosen hitting the Engineer so maybe it should have the stacking removed just like OYG.

However, I still say maybe to that and no to any other nerf of it because of a couple differences.

WE all know BS is the Chosen only unless you spec for a tactic and slot it, no small price, but it does affect those outside the group I beleive. BS also is only on for 10 out of 20 seconds, unless you get another tactic (no thanks), and has to be triggered regularly, using up AP's and a GCD. OYG (since this was nerf'ed and that nerf is the prime reason for calling out BS) is a group affecting aura that is always on, period.

The other big difference I noticed in the screenshot, BS is mitigated while OTG is -not-. Minor difference to clothies, but the medium armor types and tanks, that makes a big differenece.

You take those things into account and BS isn't so OP'ed. But there is an argument for it not stackng.

While BS can be mitigated.. it's also landing on up to 9 people where as OYG was group only (6 max). Plus you have to factor in Chosen using DF which is not mitigated... therefore having 1 or 2 chosen with these auras/tactics slotted.. pretty much eliminates any chance of Order using any form of AoE dmg.. but yet Order has not counter to this to stop Destro from using AoE at will.

Even you have to admit that from even just 1 screenshot people should not be taking more damage from reflection than they are dishing out. Basically it's making Order healers have to do nothing but heal reflected damage and not do anything to help with all the other dmg people are taking. Engineers have to deal with BS.. Bright Wizards have to deal with that AND DF so they're taking even more damage back.

If you can't see this is heavily lopsided in Destruction's favor, then perhaps it'll dawn on you when you can't find enough Order players to even fight in RvR. There are 2 major things that Mythic needs to do and do quickly.. Reflected dmg needs to be resistable/mitigated AND toned way down... the 2nd is that CC needs to be severly toned down as well. Otherwise I feel they'll go the way of AoC and others... people won't stay for this kind of crap. At least give both sides an equal chance of winning.

[Balcor]

No, a better way around it is to cast whatever, if you get hit by BS you wait. Cast again after 8-10 sec and you'll probably be ok. Because BS has a limited time span.

assuming there's only 1 Chosen there.. if there are 2 or more BS will be up constantly if they have any coordination.

[amobius]

First there were screenshots posted about excessive BS damage. People complained about no time stamps on it. Few days later two screenshots are posted that blatantly show these chosen abilities stacking and doing large amounts of damage with time stamps included. What more proof do you want?

[martyr1777]

While BS can be mitigated.. it's also landing on up to 9 people where as OYG was group only (6 max). Plus you have to factor in Chosen using DF which is not mitigated... therefore having 1 or 2 chosen with these auras/tactics slotted.. pretty much eliminates any chance of Order using any form of AoE dmg.. but yet Order has not counter to this to stop Destro from using AoE at will.

Even you have to admit that from even just 1 screenshot people should not be taking more damage from reflection than they are dishing out. Basically it's making Order healers have to do nothing but heal reflected damage and not do anything to help with all the other dmg people are taking. Engineers have to deal with BS.. Bright Wizards have to deal with that AND DF so they're taking even more damage back.

If you can't see this is heavily lopsided in Destruction's favor, then perhaps it'll dawn on you when you can't find enough Order players to even fight in RvR. There are 2 major things that Mythic needs to do and do quickly.. Reflected dmg needs to be resistable/mitigated AND toned way down... the 2nd is that CC needs to be severly toned down as well. Otherwise I feel they'll go the way of AoC and others... people won't stay for this kind of crap. At least give both sides an equal chance of winning.

First, couldn't agree more about the CC issues. CC needs to be slashed pretty badly across the board, especially yhe AoE CC.

As for the BS, you do make a good point. Taking more reflection damage then you deal isn't too cool (now you know why destro was screaming about OYG). So make DS group only instead of everyone, that puts it more in line with other abilities of that sort (never understood why it was everyone anyway).

But still you can't hit it too hard, because its still an activated ability plus a tactic to get it group affecting and is only a really big issue with AoE attacks which are not generally the norm except for situations like keeps where you have a large group massed in a small area.

So it takes far more to use it and even then its very situational. As opposed to OYG, which kicked all melees butts all the time.

I'll give you that BS+DS could you some tweaking, but I don't like the people that come at as if its a destro OYG, it's no where near as bad as OYG was.

[martyr1777]

assuming there's only 1 Chosen there.. if there are 2 or more BS will be up constantly if they have any coordination.

Fought against destro much? We're about as uncoordinated as it gets.

[Didier]

No, a better way around it is to cast whatever, if you get hit by BS you wait. Cast again after 8-10 sec and you'll probably be ok. Because BS has a limited time span.

Please do me a favor and play the whole time with one eye on the combat log and lets talk again then....

Plz make a better post next time.

Thx in advance

[martyr1777]

Please do me a favor and play the whole time with one eye on the combat log and lets talk again then....

Plz make a more intelligent post next time.

Thx in advance

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of this talk is centered around the situation of BS+DS and AoE attacks in a keep siege.

Well Keep sieges aren't exactly light speed events. You have more then enough time to toss an AoE and see if you get smacked with a bunch of red lines. Hell you can probably not even look at the log and just suddenly see you are taking damage now if you weren't.

I tell you this, it wasn't hard to see when I was getting crushed by your OYG in the middle of intense melee combat. If a ranged can't tell if they got hit by BS then maybe the problem isn't with the ability.

[Erehain]

First, couldn't agree more about the CC issues. CC needs to be slashed pretty badly across the board, especially yhe AoE CC.

As for the BS, you do make a good point. Taking more reflection damage then you deal isn't too cool (now you know why destro was screaming about OYG). So make DS group only instead of everyone, that puts it more in line with other abilities of that sort (never understood why it was everyone anyway).

But still you can't hit it too hard, because its still an activated ability plus a tactic to get it group affecting and is only a really big issue with AoE attacks which are not generally the norm except for situations like keeps where you have a large group massed in a small area.

So it takes far more to use it and even then its very situational. As opposed to OYG, which kicked all melees butts all the time.

I'll give you that BS+DS could you some tweaking, but I don't like the people that come at as if its a destro OYG, it's no where near as bad as OYG was.


Not only AoE attacks, the problem about BS is stacking. I dont have screenie but next time ill try to cap it when i was hit like 6 times just from BS after one attack that was launched on one person.

[Gishem]

a coordinated warband alternating buffs on the ram (ex. 24/7 bolster/modify) brings a door down in under 2 minutes (no destro interference)

seeing as bane shield stacking, such as this. destro pretty much have a free ride through every door. (Don't you dare mention oil. its hit for LESS then 500 average on tanks)

[Mael]

I actually have a SS of getting hit with Dire Shielding more than 6 times per wave of Rain of Fire. I think it limits the amount of times you can get hit with it per tick to 10ish, because RoF will hit more than 10 people, but I only get the damage from 8-9.

In a Fort defense, there is NO counter to this. It's impossible to kill the chosen from the wall because the DoK's are all very close and spamming their AOE heals. If we're lucky and have WP's spamming their's as well, we can at least weather the damage. But I only get one cast and then I have to wait for heal lag to catch up.

In the worst case, during the lag fest of a Fort defense, I cast RoF on the mob that was hitting the door. First wave of RoF triggers the Chosen DS which kills me. I get a rez within 10 seconds or so, click yes, and then the second wave of RoF hits the mob on the door and Chosen DS kills me again. I stopped accepting a rez at that point. It was happening to pretty much every BW and we had to scream in region chat to avoid Rezes for a minute or two otherwise you'd just die over and over.

I'll post the SS tonight.

[Arrelaine]

Here you go.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9154&d=1230315272

One of those buff has '0s' on it, which means it's more than likely an icon bug.

[Didier]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of this talk is centered around the situation of BS+DS and AoE attacks in a keep siege.

Well Keep sieges aren't exactly light speed events. You have more then enough time to toss an AoE and see if you get smacked with a bunch of red lines. Hell you can probably not even look at the log and just suddenly see you are taking damage now if you weren't.

I tell you this, it wasn't hard to see when I was getting crushed by your OYG in the middle of intense melee combat. If a ranged can't tell if they got hit by BS then maybe the problem isn't with the ability.

In sieges the combat log scrolls so fast, that i can't read most of it.

[Erehain]

One of those buff has '0s' on it, which means it's more than likely an icon bug. The only class that this works on is pretty much the BW. KotBS works on most of the Destro classes.


What about combat log? Is it caused from icon bug also? Was it bug on my all hits as well?

[Arrelaine]

What about combat log? Is it caused from icon bug also? Was it bug on my all hits as well?

Your combat log only shows you getting hit by two different BS, from two different people. If the person is AoEing, yes, you will take a lot of damage, because it effects the allies with in 30 ft. It's about the only thing melee has to counter aoe on forts.

[Mael]

Your combat log only shows you getting hit by two different BS, from two different people. If the person is AoEing, yes, you will take a lot of damage, because it effects the allies with in 30 ft. It's about the only thing melee has to counter aoe on forts.

Don't forget the 15 DoK's spamming Khaines Refreshment.

That's the most useful counter you have.

[Arrelaine]

Don't forget the 15 DoK's spamming Khaines Refreshment.

That's the most useful counter you have.

I rarely see 15 DoKs. I see about 4 in a keep raid. Total, not in my wb alone. I dunno if our server must not have a lot of DoKs, or they just don't come out of their hole. Usually our healers consist of shamans, very few sorcs and a ton of melee. Well, in t4 anyway. Ranged is picking up in t3 and below. I think people are rolling a lot of alts who used to be melee.

[Erehain]

Your combat log only shows you getting hit by two different BS, from two different people. If the person is AoEing, yes, you will take a lot of damage, because it effects the allies with in 30 ft. It's about the only thing melee has to counter aoe on forts.


So, your saying that BS stacking is working as intended? 1 person, single attack, 2 hits from BS. So OYG was nerfed cause it stacked and you could get hit by more than one but BS stacking is fine? I dont mention dmg dealt by those skills, since im trying to point stacking issue on BS and thats why it should be nerfed (fixed if you prefer).

[martyr1777]

In sieges the combat log scrolls so fast, that i can't read most of it.

First I didn't say anything about reading it, because you shouldn't have to. It will be harder for you as a melee because you will be in the thick of things more then the ranged, but if make an attack and suddenly see a spam of damage taken all right after and its the same amount, guess what you just got hit by.

Same thing with OYG before the 2sec limit, if I made an attack and then saw a bunch of 60's (early tier when I faced it) flash by I knew I was in trouble. If you weren't already taking damage from something then its just plain obvious.

[PinkysBrain]

Fought against destro much? We're about as uncoordinated as it gets.
In fortresses you don't need coordination ... in any 30 feet area there will be enough chosen to keep it up all the time. Even without stacking a single reflect off each target is way way too strong. Basically it makes it impossible for order to put on any pressure damage (it pressure our healers just as much as yours). That is too big a gap in power to be made up by having slightly better healers ...

OYG without stacking would just prevent AoE on the marauder, DS without stacking would prevent AoE period.

With stacking it's just plain retarded.

For the moment DS has to be hit with the same nerfbat as OYG, it's the only just decision. Then they can start thinking about how to make both abilities realistic.

[martyr1777]

So, your saying that BS stacking is working as intended? 1 person, single attack, 2 hits from BS. So OYG was nerfed cause it stacked and you could get hit by more than one but BS stacking is fine? I dont mention dmg dealt by those skills, since im trying to point stacking issue on BS and thats why it should be nerfed.

I'm defending BS and yeah, that's not so cool, hated it with OYG. But remember BS+DS has significant costs while OYG is a fire and forget passive aura.

So while I'm not saying BS+DS should stack, it should have some advantage over OYG. The only reason I say it should have some advantage over OYG specifically is because Order is so intent on comparing BS+DS to OYG and the nerf OYG got, even though the more accurate mirror is Shield of the Sun (just doesn't have the group tactic).

[PinkysBrain]

The comparison is made because it breaks the game for similar reasons.

[Arrelaine]

So, your saying that BS stacking is working as intended? 1 person, single attack, 2 hits from BS. So OYG was nerfed cause it stacked and you could get hit by more than one but BS stacking is fine? I dont mention dmg dealt by those skills, since im trying to point stacking issue on BS and thats why it should be nerfed (fixed if you prefer).

I don't know if it's supposed to, or not. Unless someone petitions a CSR to see if it's a bug, or intended. I always thought that Bane shield (and similar buffs) would give the buffed player's name. I know that there is an icon bug, because boiling blood will stay on long after a scenario and says it can be removed via my hex remover. It could also be that BS isn't actually 'wearing off' and staying on, even though it's not supposed to be, and the server's saying 'well, it's at 0s, someone else can put it on now/refresh'. There's been buffs like that too, I've never actually checked if they've stacked or not at 0s.

It would be good to get a SS of BS stacking with them having a higher timer than '0s'. It might pinpoint the problem. I've also heard of some disarms/silences lasting longer than the icon says too, can't remember if they've fixed that or if it was some really bad lag.

[martyr1777]

The comparison is made because it breaks the game for similar reasons.

Ok... so everyone, what do you suggest be done with BS+DS? Obviously stop it from stacking and make DS group only, can accept that.

But what else should be done to it so it's not 'broken' yet is more effective then OYG enough to make it worth the Mastery point, tactic slot, and having to cast it repeatedly?

[PinkysBrain]

So while I'm not saying BS+DS should stack, it should have some advantage over OYG.
At the moment it has the advantage that it does something.

OYG defacto doesn't exist anymore in RvR.

[PinkysBrain]

Ok... so everyone, what do you suggest be done with BS+DS?
Scrap DS entirely.

Put OYG back to how it was but fix it to not trigger on ranged autoattacks and not stack, make DF work like OYG but for all ranged attacks/abilities. Decrease the damage on these abilities.

[Narfolr]

If you were to look around you would see me posting screenie with BS stacking. Just so you wont miss it again im gonna post it again.


Forum link http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9154&d=1230315272

and Imageshack in case one wont work http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=areneys001tw0.jpg

What if those Chosen are in different groups? Or different warbands? You should get hit by both Baneshields if they aren't in the same group. What if the combat log displays the damage from Baneshield that way when a chosen has slottted the tactic to make it affect other people in their party ... so maybe it isn't even two chosen at all? Can you prove that they are both in the same group? How would you know without cross realming/chatting? If they were in the same group then you have a point, but from that screenshot, how could you possibly assume that?

Just like if you and another SW AoE a group, both your attacks could affect the same target. What is your definition of "stacking?" For OYG, I believe the issue was not OYG across two groups or warbands, but multiple KotBS in one group. If I AoE two order groups where KotBS are spread across both groups I still take OYG damage from both KotBS. Why should it be any different for Chosen?

When you AoE a warband you are going to get some massive damage reflection, there is no way around that now that Chosen have figured out their true utility. That's the choice you have to make as DPS, either ignore the tanks and suffer the consequences from leaving them alive and allowing them to give their group utility, or kill them and suffer the consequences of taking a long time to eliminate a single target. I don't play a tank class, but why would you ever play one otherwise in this game if you couldn't force this situation on the opposing side? I like the problems that Mythic has forced upon both sides with the tanks in this game.

I know I always think really hard about whether or not I want to attack a KotBS, you all have the same issue with Chosen. Until you are sure that the Chosen abilities are stacking across multiple Chosen in the same group this probably isn't the right witch hunt for Order.

[PinkysBrain]

Groups are irrelevant to Dire Shielding, it affects allies in a 30 feet range (AFAIK it simply applies the baneshield to allies on activation and doesn't work like an aura).

PS. there is no way to balance this game if one side can AoE and the other can't ... the realms are slightly different, but the differences are not big enough to be able to balance that out. If Order can't AoE in a fortress Order can't win in a fortress, it's that simple.

[Rozerick]

If it can stack and do that amount of damage, which is pretty close to OYG, then it should probably be nerfed.

Will mythic nerf it? Probably not.

[martyr1777]

Scrap DS entirely.

Put OYG back to how it was but fix it to not trigger on ranged autoattacks and not stack, make DF work like OYG but for all ranged attacks/abilities. Decrease the damage on these abilities.

That is far to simple and broken of a concept for numerous reasons. The biggest is completely taking an ability from a class without offering some kind of replacement. No.

The other part of it that its not balanced because the vast majority of ranged attacks do more damage then melee classes, especially melee healers. So you put OYG back to how it was and make DF the same you have a bigger impact on destro melee then order ranged especially to the extent of a DoK killing themselves just trying to do their job. Again, no.

[PinkysBrain]

The biggest is completely taking an ability from a class without offering some kind of replacement.
Obviously they would get something back, the Dire Shielding tactic would become something else.

What happened for the moment is far worse, it's still an ability it defacto just doesn't do anything anymore in RvR.
The other part of it that its not balanced because the vast majority of ranged attacks do more damage then melee classes, especially melee healers.
More ranged damage is AoE too.

[Erehain]

What if those Chosen are in different groups? Or different warbands? You should get hit by both Baneshields if they aren't in the same group. What if the combat log displays the damage from Baneshield that way when a chosen has slottted the tactic to make it affect other people in their party ... so maybe it isn't even two chosen at all? Can you prove that they are both in the same group? How would you know without cross realming/chatting? If they were in the same group then you have a point, but from that screenshot, how could you possibly assume that?

Just like if you and another SW AoE a group, both your attacks could affect the same target. What is your definition of "stacking?" For OYG, I believe the issue was not OYG across two groups or warbands, but multiple KotBS in one group. If I AoE two order groups where KotBS are spread across both groups I still take OYG damage from both KotBS. Why should it be any different for Chosen?

When you AoE a warband you are going to get some massive damage reflection, there is no way around that now that Chosen have figured out their true utility. That's the choice you have to make as DPS, either ignore the tanks and suffer the consequences from leaving them alive and allowing them to give their group utility, or kill them and suffer the consequences of taking a long time to eliminate a single target. I don't play a tank class, but why would you ever play one otherwise in this game if you couldn't force this situation on the opposing side? I like the problems that Mythic has forced upon both sides with the tanks in this game.

I know I always think really hard about whether or not I want to attack a KotBS, you all have the same issue with Chosen. Until you are sure that the Chosen abilities are stacking across multiple Chosen in the same group this probably isn't the right witch hunt for Order.

I think you miss the point a bit here. If there are 2 groups with 2 Knights, one in each using OYG and you aoe entire group (12 ppl) you will get hit 12 times from OYG (1 OYG for each group which is 6 hits). Now if there are 2 Chosens using BS + DS you will get hit 24 times (12 hits for one Chosen for both groups). This is a "scenario" where the both groups are almost in one place and AoE hits everyone. Theres no problem with BS + DS in ORvR since most of the time ppl are spread out, but during keep/fort sieges where theres wall of tanks in lord room and lets say there are 3-4 Chosens using BS + DS, its suicide to use AoE attack on such wall.

The BS + DS should stay as it is, 30ft wide but buff should affect only once per player.

Im not mentioning damage here again since these 2 skills are not mirrors but they share one common "bug" which is stacking. OYG was fixed/nerfed call it however you want. I think Devs should look into stacking issue with BS+DS and somehow fix it.

[Mael]

I don't think that this would be such a huge issue if each side did not possess so many AOE heals.

Forget keep takes.


In fortress fights, neither side typically has a Ram up unless the defenders are caught COMPLETELY off guard.

So you end up with a ton of melee stacked on the door and ranged DPS doing their thing.

The last two fort defenses I did, Destro did not lose many melee that were on the door. I pay very close attention to the Destro/Order kills, and there was not much blue on the screen.

The point is, with Oil pouring on them, and a fort full of defenders casting everything they had on that mob of melee on the door, they should have died A LOT. They are attacking a fort!!! You should not expect to be able to heal through the massive focus firing of an entire defending force on a single spot (spot in front of the door.) But Destro can because of DS+BS and the AOE heals that both sides have.

I'm sure the nay sayers will ask if the defenders didn't have enough DPS, or maybe on my server destro has a lot more healers, or this or that. But the bottom line is that at least as a BW, trying to cast through 200+ damage hits per person my spells hit (up to 10ish) plus the 750 damage that I take through Combustion explosion, Engineer turrets are probably more affective than I am.

I don't want to be over powered and mow them over. But I would at least like to be able to defend our Fort with out requireing a RP specced in single target healing spam healing me.

[Arrelaine]

Was there ever a time that DS only affected group members? If so, maybe when they changed it they broke it. Someone should probably contact a CSR in game, and people should submit a lot of bug reports on it.

[Arrelaine]

I don't think that this would be such a huge issue if each side did not possess so many AOE heals.

Forget keep takes.


In fortress fights, neither side typically has a Ram up unless the defenders are caught COMPLETELY off guard.

So you end up with a ton of melee stacked on the door and ranged DPS doing their thing.

The last two fort defenses I did, Destro did not lose many melee that were on the door. I pay very close attention to the Destro/Order kills, and there was not much blue on the screen.

The point is, with Oil pouring on them, and a fort full of defenders casting everything they had on that mob of melee on the door, they should have died A LOT. They are attacking a fort!!! You should not expect to be able to heal through the massive focus firing of an entire defending force on a single spot (spot in front of the door.) But Destro can because of DS+BS and the AOE heals that both sides have.

I'm sure the nay sayers will ask if the defenders didn't have enough DPS, or maybe on my server destro has a lot more healers, or this or that. But the bottom line is that at least as a BW, trying to cast through 200+ hits per person my spells hit (up to 10ish) plus the 750 damage that I take through Combustion explosion, Engineer turrets are probably more affective than I am.

I don't want to be over powered and mow them over. But I would at least like to be able to defend our Fort with out requireing a RP specced in single target healing spam healing me.

Even if they fix the stacking, you're still going to take a lot of damage from everyone's bane shield. Once they fix the stacking, FF the chosen down, and no more bane shield.

[Narfolr]

Groups are irrelevant to Dire Shielding, it affects allies in a 30 feet range (AFAIK it simply applies the baneshield to allies on activation and doesn't work like an aura).

PS. there is no way to balance this game if one side can AoE and the other can't ... the realms are slightly different, but the differences are not big enough to be able to balance that out. If Order can't AoE in a fortress Order can't win in a fortress, it's that simple.

You are right, 8337 with 8364 affects allies, which normally applies anyone from your faction within range.

Still if we AoE a warband where the KotBS are not in the same group, I take OYG damage from multiple sources too. Knights don't have an equivalent to 8364, but they have different tactics that buff their group instead.

It's still odd to me that people in this game seem to be obsessed with homogenizing the abilities across factions so much. This was one of the major issues I had with WoW ... everything was the same ... boring. Our forum is always crying for an AoE detaunt like the WPs have, or for our heals to cleanse with each HoT tic and heal like the WPs, but I could care less. We have other abilities that give us survivability if we want it, and they are more offensive (the nature of our race and class) than the WP, I'd rather have that variety.

If order has an issue with 8364, so be it, but I was just making the point that the OP has no way of actually proving that 8337 is stacking, like OYG was. It could easily be two Chosen in separate groups or someone with 8364 in that Chosen's group.

[martyr1777]

More ranged damage is AoE too.

Yes, and AoE on both sides is more situational and ranged have fewer casts of it (build times).

Melee simply attack far more often because of no build times and there damage is generally less. So that by default makes OYG unbalanced vs a DF that functioned like OYG but against ranged.

And that still doesn't explain what the Chosen are supposed to get when they have a mastery tactic suddenly yanked from their tree.

The concept of removing DS and making DF work like OYG and putting OYG back to how it was is so insanely flawed its not even funny.

Seriously, if you really think BS+DS should be nerfed then you tell me a reasonable good nerf beyond making it not stack and DS affecting group only. But so far it doesn't sound like anyone can.

[PinkysBrain]

Was there ever a time that DS only affected group members? If so, maybe when they changed it they broke it. Someone should probably contact a CSR in game, and people should submit a lot of bug reports on it.
What happened is that it started to work off strength at 1.06, before that it was far weaker.

[Narfolr]

What happened is that it started to work off strength at 1.06, before that it was far weaker.

Why on earth would we ever want Mythic to go back to stacking melee class abilities based off of INT? We still have abilities in our trees that are like that and I'm sure they are around for other melee classes as well. If Mythic ever reverts that change, I know I'll never spec into two of our three trees again.

Any melee classes ability should scale with their main stats. Mythic just bungled that so poorly in things that didn't get fixed when they were forced to launch early that we shouldn't even be talking about "before."

[PinkysBrain]

The concept of removing DS and making DF work like OYG and putting OYG back to how it was is so insanely flawed its not even funny.
Not as insanely flawed as leaving DS in, even without stacking it's quite ridiculous.

First give Order a weak melee train which gets overrun with AoE disorients, then give Order a weak RDPS line which can't AoE effectively ... why not just make NPCs play Order? As a human being I will only play to lose if I'm payed for it.

[PinkysBrain]

Why on earth would we ever want Mythic to go back to stacking melee class abilities based off of INT?
That's not what I said, I was just explaining what changed to make this a problem when it wasn't before.

[Ellessidil]

You are right, 8337 with 8364 affects allies, which normally applies anyone from your faction within range.

Still if we AoE a warband where the KotBS are not in the same group, I take OYG damage from multiple sources too. Knights don't have an equivalent to 8364, but they have different tactics that buff their group instead.

It's still odd to me that people in this game seem to be obsessed with homogenizing the abilities across factions so much. This was one of the major issues I had with WoW ... everything was the same ... boring. Our forum is always crying for an AoE detaunt like the WPs have, or for our heals to cleanse with each HoT tic and heal like the WPs, but I could care less. We have other abilities that give us survivability if we want it, and they are more offensive (the nature of our race and class) than the WP, I'd rather have that variety.

If order has an issue with 8364, so be it, but I was just making the point that the OP has no way of actually proving that 8337 is stacking, like OYG was. It could easily be two Chosen in separate groups or someone with 8364 in that Chosen's group.

Groups dont matter for Chosen.

They could all be out of a group and solo in the keep, and it will STILL have the same effect.

There are 24 people, both for order and dest.

3 groups for each side, each group has 1 kotbs for order side, and 1 chosen for dest side.

OYG and BS+DS being used on each.

You run an AoE attack at the OYG'ed order players, and you in theory get hit 24 times, for each player that you hit. Remove a kotbs and put them in a group with another, and you actually lower your effectiveness since 6 people now wont reflect dmg.

You do the same thing to the dest group, and you get hit 24X3 times, since each Chosen's BS+DS hits ALL ALLIES WITHIN 30FT. You can swap them between groups, you can even have them OOG and the other 21 people in groups, and it wont matter. It covers everyone, and it stacks. And yes it has a down time to the skill, but its not hard at all to run a simple rotation with the skill, since it lasts for 17 seconds you dont even have to time it very well to always keep it up at least once, if they plan it right they can always have two up.

There is no possible way for OYG to stack. And it requires you being in the group to do anything for your allies. Chosen do not have this limitation, which means you run into the same issue Dest was complaining about with OYG.... the fact that AoE attacks can hit you more times, and for more damage, than you did with your attack.

The easiest fix, is to remove stacking entirely. It already has the benefit of affecting all allies within 30ft when slotted, and can crit and is affected by str, which i assume means that it will also proc the extra dmg procs from DoK(cant say for certain). Those are all great benefits.

As of right now, BW are useless during seiges. You get a few Chosen slotted up, and you are screwed as a BW. And the answers of "OMG FF the chosen down" wont work. You are talking about a tank line, most likely with people running HtL in it, and you have healers who are out of LoS who can focus heal anyone you target, and I mean all the healers, becuase you sure wont be putting any AoE pressure on them to heal up since it would be suicide until you take down the tank who is most likely wearing a shield and spec'ed for heavy defense, just for this purpose.

With proper healing, how do you propose you take down the 2-3 chosen and keep them down without rez's to bring them back to keep this BS+DS setup from going? And again, the healers will be able to focus heal the crap out of the Chosen since AoE dmg wont be a factor for them, since it will be suicide for the person doing it as long as the Chosen are up.

Its pretty much a catch 22. You cant AoE until the chosen are dead, but you cant kill the chosen because of focus healing, because you arent AoE'ing to help tax the healers and prevent them from focus healing.

[Rozerick]

Not as insanely flawed as leaving DS in, even without stacking it's quite ridiculous.

First give Order a weak melee train which gets overrun with AoE disorients, then give Order a weak RDPS line which can't AoE effectively ... why not just make NPCs play Order? As a human being I will only play to lose if I'm payed for it.

Ya, mythic will probably have to pay order players to stick around, haha.

It's relatively balanced in SC's, I can tell you that, about 50/50.

But playing destruction is so much more fun, I can't even explain why.

[martyr1777]

Not as insanely flawed as leaving DS in, even without stacking it's quite ridiculous.

First give Order a weak melee train which gets overrun with AoE disorients, then give Order a weak RDPS line which can't AoE effectively ... why not just make NPCs play Order? As a human being I will only play to lose if I'm payed for it.

You just lost any possible credibility you might have had with me.

I see its now about Destro is completely superior to Order, that's how come we lose more scenarios then we win on Dark Crag and why Order takes and holds keeps just as well as we do.

DS really isn't that much different then OYG was, sure it affects all attacks, not just melee. But it has a whole host of disadvantages for balance. Before it was nerfed OYG was so amazingly superior, that's why ever single Knight ran with it up 24/7 and why BS+DS is only now getting the nerf calls and probably not so widely used.

[Ellessidil]

Yes, and AoE on both sides is more situational and ranged have fewer casts of it (build times).

Melee simply attack far more often because of no build times and there damage is generally less. So that by default makes OYG unbalanced vs a DF that functioned like OYG but against ranged.

And that still doesn't explain what the Chosen are supposed to get when they have a mastery tactic suddenly yanked from their tree.

The concept of removing DS and making DF work like OYG and putting OYG back to how it was is so insanely flawed its not even funny.

Seriously, if you really think BS+DS should be nerfed then you tell me a reasonable good nerf beyond making it not stack and DS affecting group only. But so far it doesn't sound like anyone can.

Why is it not stacking not a viable option? It could be left alone entirely beyond that for all most of us would care.

It already has the benefit of affecting all allies, instead of being group only. Which means it scales infinitely as far as dmg per ap spent, and gets stronger(as in it does more dmg total) the more people it affects.

Mitigation is brought up as a downside, and yes you can mitigate, but it also counts as melee dmg(as in an attack, I know its on resists other than normal dmg) from everything I can see, and is affected by your stats, so you can increase the dmg of it by increasing your primary dps stat. If it is a melee attack, it means it can proc the DoK covenant, for even more dmg. It can also critically hit.

Stacking is the only major problem, as the more chosen you have, the more impossible it becomes to do any AoE attacks, and the more Chosen you have, the harder it is to stop this tactic, as healers can focus heal and/or just rez the chosen that gets FF'ed down while you are attempting to FF the next. You cant keep the healers tied up AoE healing and patching the entire wb because of AoE, becuase you cant AoE until the Chosen are dead.

Again, its a catch 22. And it could be fixed entirely by just removing stacking. Or adding a maximum amount of times you can be hit by the ability when you use a skill.

Either way it prevents tons of Chosen from making AoE useless, and fixes the Catch 22.

[PinkysBrain]

Yes, destruction in keep and fortress fights is completely superior to order even without DS.

[Arrelaine]

It doesn't count as melee, it's spirit. Strength increases it, yes, but it's spirit damage.

[martyr1777]

Why is it not stacking not a viable option? It could be left alone entirely beyond that for all most of us would care.

It already has the benefit of affecting all allies, instead of being group only. Which means it scales infinitely as far as dmg per ap spent, and gets stronger(as in it does more dmg total) the more people it affects.

Mitigation is brought up as a downside, and yes you can mitigate, but it also counts as melee dmg from everything I can see, and is affected by your stats, so you can increase the dmg of it by increasing your primary dps stat. If it is a melee attack, it means it can proc the DoK covenant, for even more dmg. It can also critically hit.

Stacking is the only major problem, as the more chosen you have, the more impossible it becomes to do any AoE attacks, and the more Chosen you have, the harder it is to stop this tactic, as healers can focus heal and/or just rez the chosen that gets FF'ed down while you are attempting to FF the next. You cant keep the healers tied up AoE healing and patching the entire wb because of AoE, becuase you cant AoE until the Chosen are dead.

Again, its a catch 22. And it could be fixed entirely by just removing stacking. Or adding a maximum amount of times you can be hit by the ability when you use a skill.

Either way it prevents tons of Chosen from making AoE useless, and fixes the Catch 22.

If stacking is your big concern great... I've state numerous times over my posts today that I'd be ok with it not stacking and making it group only, go for it. But not everyone here is as sensible as you, some just want it to be nerfed exactly like OYG it seems.

While I was fine with OYG's nerf I'm not fine with the same thing applying to an ability that has significant cost to it.

[Didier]

That is far to simple and broken of a concept for numerous reasons. The biggest is completely taking an ability from a class without offering some kind of replacement. No.

The other part of it that its not balanced because the vast majority of ranged attacks do more damage then melee classes, especially melee healers. So you put OYG back to how it was and make DF the same you have a bigger impact on destro melee then order ranged especially to the extent of a DoK killing themselves just trying to do their job. Again, no.

Defacto OYG was nerfed so hard it's just crap now. You can say the ability was taken out of game. DS punching back for more then the initial damage is simply retarded.

I for myself as i play a KotbS strongly felt the ability has to be fixed. And they fixed it now. How hard the fix was? I don't use OYG any more.

DS has the same potential as OYG, and at the moment i clearly see more and more that order should cry more so that mythic listens. I for myself am a passionate player who is older and i don't like that kind of childish game. But if it has to be played that way so that everyone has his fair justification, then so be it!

It only shows that on order-side are more of the older players and Mythic shouldnt forget that WE bring the money.

So to make a long term short:
Take a look into DS, do the test and get up with the results. As of now i am simply growing more and more bored of the overall discussion what if and what not!
It's mythics JOB to get the RvR going fair and square. If they mean they can ignore it, then they have to get the consequences. As of now i am still positive about this game.

@MYTHIC & JESS (i know you dont do it, but i namecall now): TAKE a look into it and show the mechanics to us to end this issue. END! I'm getting really annoyed by the time's wasting.

Edit:
Oh i FORGOT!
YES Tanks should be a threat!
KotbS is no more!
Only Chosens!
So get it DONE!

[martyr1777]

Defacto OYG was nerfed so hard it's just crap now. You can say the ability was taken out of game. DS punching back for more then the initial damage is simply retarded.

I stoped right there to reply, will read the rest after.

WTF do you think OYG did? Huh? It didn't just tickle people. DoK's took more damage then they did by a HUGE margin because of it.

[Ellessidil]

If stacking is your big concern great... I've state numerous times over my posts today that I'd be ok with it not stacking and making it group only, go for it. But not everyone here is as sensible as you, some just want it to be nerfed exactly like OYG it seems.

While I was fine with OYG's nerf I'm not fine with the same thing applying to an ability that has significant cost to it.

Well the main issue is, like I have mentioned before, its hard to counter this ability.

Removing stacking would solve most issues, although I cant say that it affecting all alllies within a range is not still going to be a problem, it remains to be seen since we arent there yet.

You could also put a hard limit on how many times DS+BS could hit for off of a "proc" of it. Set it so no matter how many people are hit, the skill only procs a max of X times per attack. You could then effectively tweak all aspects of the skill to increase or decrease its power, by altering the dmg it does, and how many times it can proc.

These are basically all the same ideas that were around for OYG, but the cry from Dest outweighed all the suggestions of things like this, and while we cant attribute the nerf to the whines, there is a correlation between the two. Cant say there is causation for sure, but its impossible to argue a lack of correlation.

Now I certainly hope that the dev's take a look at BS+DS, but I hope they modify the skill with a good deal of moderation. In MMO's, you can either have a trend of balancing by nothing but nerfs, or via buffs, or a combination of the two. The best road is a balance between the two, because sometimes you need to lower the power of one skill to the rest because increasing them all would be a problem, and sometimes teh answer is to increase everything else to the level of the "OP" skill.

In this situation, if Chosen really wanted to keep the skill as is, all it takes is coming up with something to help balance it out for KotBS. There is no mirror to this ability in game, and its a VERY powerful ability in sieges. Properly setup and maintained I would argue that it would take an excessively larger and more powerful force to even hope to break through this tactic.

Does it have to be an exact mirror of the tactic Chosen get that allows this? No. But there needs to be something of comparable power to allow some sort of similar ability for KotBS and Order as a whole.

As of right now, BS+DS completely removes the ability for Order to use AoE attacks in a siege. And the counter is almost impossible to do without the above mentioned superior numbers and force.

Order has nothing like this, Dest have no worries about AoE attacks in any form. OYG needed to be prevented from stacking, and it would have been just fine. DS+BS needed its stacking removed as well. And then both abilities would have been fine. And we wouldnt be where we are right now talking about this subject if that had been the case.

[Didier]

I stoped right there to reply, will read the rest after.

WTF do you think OYG did? Huh? It didn't just tickle people. DoK's took more damage then they did by a HUGE margin because of it.

And now casters and engies take more damage than done.
It's the same in green.

Oh yes! And another EDIT again:
I Play CHOSEN and KOTBS.
But we are going a one-way street with medals with only one side only as it is now.

I try to give YOU Destros a challenge by rolling ORDER so that YOU have enemies!
So be happy that i rerolled order. CAUSE as of now i see more and more DESTRO getting bored CAUSE order is leaving. I like Warhammer cause i played the TT in the past. But if there is no challenging fight and i know the end of the story in advance it's no fun for anyone!

[martyr1777]

And now casters and engies take more damage than done.
It's the same in green.

But its not the same.. the results are yes. But you can -not- compare a core fire and forget aura with unmitigated reflect damage to a 10s duration 20s CD ability that only affects one character unless they invest a mastery point and tactic slot into it and has mitigated spirit damage.

I'm sorry but they just do not fit. Make BS+DS not stack and only affect the Chosen's group, thats fine. But by default it needs to be better just because it requires so much more for it to work then OYG.

[Gakt]

Please understand, I think BS is completely legit. Should not be changed at all. Let compare however OYG and BS + DS since they do almost the same thing together.

The three key differences are:


OYG affects your group while BS + DS protects ALL allies in 30 feet. ( I think this is fine in all honesty. You are using a ability and a tactic to achieve this so I think it evens out. )
BS + DS does not have the 2second cooldown which causes these problems where as the OYG does ( and that was hotfixed because it did not use to and it was too powerful. )
The KotBS only needs to use the ability and not a tactic with it while the chosen has to use the ability and the tactic. This ( by simply logic ) means the chosen ability should be more powerful. I think the power is reflected by how many allies the abilities can affect. KotBS can only affect 5 plus himself while the chosen can affect 2 or 3 times that if they are positioned correctly.


The Problem:


The second reason is the problem with the abilities being paired up together. It is the only problem. Add the 2second cooldown ( hell even 1s will do ) attached to DS. Not BS. This fixes the problem of AoE but still provides the functionality for single target damaging abilities ( which is what it is for ). Stacking might also be an issue but I think for now leave it and see how it plays out if they implement the cooldown.

[Didier]

I'm sorry but they just do not fit. Make BS+DS not stack and only affect the Chosen's group, thats fine. But by default it needs to be better just because it requires so much more for it to work then OYG.

That sounds fair! And make OYG only affect it's group and it shouldn't stack. Finished.
And everyones happy.

But Mythic didn't get it's JOB done. And that's the reason i write here.

OYG is of no concern any more... It's a dead skill.

And please read my edit in the posting above.

Oh yes another EDIT:
Give OYG and DS a 1s timer so both work similiar. Thx.

[Arrelaine]

Chosen use two tactic slots for BS, because it's not very good just at 10s. Another tactic adds another 7s. So if they fix the stacking issue, I think it'll be good.

[Didier]

Chosen use two tactic slots for BS, because it's not very good just at 10s. Another tactic adds another 7s. So if they fix the stacking issue, I think it'll be good.

I wouldn't mind if Mythic threw 1 tactic over board while rebalancing. That's just fair.

Edit:
Hereby i mean the consolidation of 2 Tactics so only 1 has to be used in the future.

[Narfolr]

Ya, mythic will probably have to pay order players to stick around, haha.

It's relatively balanced in SC's, I can tell you that, about 50/50.

But playing destruction is so much more fun, I can't even explain why.

I don't disagree with you there, I've been playing Destro since OB. The funny thing is the WAR books, etc. about the Empire were cool, and I played them a lot in 40K. I just don't like the classes as much from non-40K War on Order.

[martyr1777]

That sounds fair! And make OYG only affect it's group and it shouldn't stack. Finished.
And everyones happy.

But Mythic didn't get it's JOB done. And that's the reason i write here.

OYG is of no concern any more... It's a dead skill.

And please read my edit in the posting above.

Oh yes another EDIT:
Give OYG and DS a 1s timer so both work similiar. Thx.

Heh, cool but some how I don't think you mean to keep OYG with the 2sec proc rule.

As for your above edit... Guess what I do play order also, in fact I play a SM on Monolith, by far the weakest tank in the game. It needs some love, but you don't see me trying to bring other classes down to their level.

OYG got nerf'ed because it was OP'ed pure and simple, maybe the nerf was too hard, I can't say myself. But I know you can't have OYG and BS+DS at the same level just because the do the same thing because they requirements to get that result as so completely and vastly different.

[Gakt]

Chosen use two tactic slots for BS, because it's not very good just at 10s. Another tactic adds another 7s. So if they fix the stacking issue, I think it'll be good.

Interesting but I still say to add a cooldown to how many times it can trigger from a single chosen and leave the stacking.

Example: 3 Chosens are stacking this ability on each other and 2 more people. ( 5 all together)

Currently, if you do an AoE which hits the 5 destruction characters, you will get hit 15 times for 150 spirit damage ( which is usually resisted to about 100 - 130 because it is not a binary resist, so low end 1500 dmg all together ) in about 1 second.

With my solution, if you do an AoE you would get hit 3 times instead of 15 from each chosen applying the buff. 300 dmg ( low end ) in 1 second is still formidable from one AoE attack.

My 2cents and I hope my math doesnt suck lol.

[Didier]

I don't disagree with you there, I've been playing Destro since OB. The funny thing is the WAR books, etc. about the Empire were cool, and I played them a lot in 40K. I just don't like the classes as much from non-40K War on Order.

See Mythic? Here's the problem! Order is NOT cool! So why the hell did I reroll Order?

I must be plain stupid for rerolling ORDER so that there are enemies for for destro.
Maybe i should go back to TabulaRasa.

[Rozerick]

See Mythic? Here's the problem! Order is NOT cool! So why the hell did I reroll Order?

I must be plain stupid for rerolling ORDER so that there are enemies for for destro.
Maybe i should go back to TabulaRasa.

Isn't that going to be closed down in a month? lol

[martyr1777]

Interesting but I still say to add a cooldown to how many times it can trigger from a single chosen and leave the stacking.

Example: 3 Chosens are stacking this ability on each other and 2 more people. ( 5 all together)

Currently, if you do an AoE which hits the 5 destruction characters, you will get hit 15 times for 150 spirit damage ( which is usually resisted to about 100 - 130 because it is not a binary resist, so low end 1500 dmg all together ) in about 1 second.

With my solution, if you do an AoE you would get hit 3 times instead of 15 from each chosen applying the buff. 300 dmg ( low end ) in 1 second is still formidable from one AoE attack.

My 2cents and I hope my math doesnt suck lol.

lol, do you realize what you have there is just hitting 3 chosen with Bane Shield, not using Dire Shielding at all? Because that's exactly what you have.

So what benefit does a Chosen get from the tactic?

[Balcor]

I stoped right there to reply, will read the rest after.

WTF do you think OYG did? Huh? It didn't just tickle people. DoK's took more damage then they did by a HUGE margin because of it.

Well the problem with the OYG nerf is that they didn't just tweak the ability to stop the stacking issue... they drove over it with the nerf truck, buried it with nerf bulldozer then put up the nerf headstone. I don't think you'll find even 1 person on this or any other message board that won't agree that the OYG stacking issue needed to be fixed.

The problem we have here is that BS+DS is doing the exact same thing but it's affecting far more allies and doing as much if not more dmg in return as OYG did pre-nerf. Esp. now that it's based off STR rather than INT.

If we look at the 2 mirror abilities BS = Shield of the Sun ... but you throw in DS and suddenly Destro has it on everyone within 30 feet of any Chosen. Where as there is no DS ability for the Knights thus any Destro doing AoE is only getting hit by 1 person... not so for Order... balance is needed here.

Then you look at OYG vs DF... both unmitigated dmg.. however now OYG only works every 2 secs .. granted casters probably can't get spells off any faster than that BUT we now have another imbalance because Order AoE casters are taking DF dmg AND BS/DS dmg from everyone they hit. Where as Destro AoE casters are only taking Shield of the Sun dmg from each Knight that happens to be present. And Destro melee AoE is only taking OYG dmg from those grouped with the Knight and only once every 2 secs.. and a lot of melee attacks happen faster than every 2 secs.

In end game fortress/city/keep seiges.. this is a game breaking imbalance. Order simply cannot stand up to the Destruction side even IF they somehow get similar numbers on both sides.

Honestly, I think DS should be removed from the game and make Bane Shield exactly like Shield of the Sun.. single target only. As for DF.. it should suffer the same fate as OYG... 2 secs per hit ... as you can already resist 75% of all magic dmg if you really want to.

EDIT: also, people say "well what does the Chosen get back if DS is removed?" what did the Knights get back when OYG was nerfed right out of the game? Nothing.

[Korhadril]

I haven't read the whole shitstorm and I want to come out unscathed at the least. First thing first, I agree the damage posted in the pics is absurd and not warranted, and something needs to be done with it.

Now, my question, has bane shield been changed in any of the last patches to it's current state? and if it's been like this for a long time, why is it an issue now? are chosen players that don't understand the power? did On Your Guard make people consider the ability again? What was it?.

[Didier]

Heh, cool but some how I don't think you mean to keep OYG with the 2sec proc rule.

As for your above edit... Guess what I do play order also, in fact I play a SM on Monolith, by far the weakest tank in the game. It needs some love, but you don't see me trying to bring other classes down to their level.

OYG got nerf'ed because it was OP'ed pure and simple, maybe the nerf was too hard, I can't say myself. But I know you can't have OYG and BS+DS at the same level just because the do the same thing because they requirements to get that result as so completely and vastly different.

So that we understand us.

The nerf had to be. We both share the same opinion. With KotbS the same was done as will be done with DS and BS now.

If Mythic would be smart they should remove the stacking for DS+BS and remove the stacking for OYG.

In the source-code OYG hasn't been fixed at all! They just made a database adjustement (may it be SQL DB4 or whatever) so that they have more time to fix the real coding. (Just my opinion as i am DB and Network-Admin, could also be false)

The perfect solution imho would be:
- DB doesn't stack and has a 0.5 timer
- DS doesn't stack and has NO timer (DS just having to use 1 tactic to make it good)
- OYG doesn't stack and has a 0.5 timer
- Shield of the sun can be beefed up with a tactic same as chosen

What would we have then?
2 Tanks that are a threat and few would ignore them.

Whats your opinion bro?

[PinkysBrain]

Martyr, the advantage would be not having to be the one actually hit.

Korhadril, as I said a couple of times now ... it started to work off strength in 1.06 and it started to hit a lot harder.

[Seto]

Funny how order is calling for similar nerfs for a 17 second (max) ability now, when they earlier argued that OYG, a permanent lasting similar ability was fine and did not need a nerf.

How about, just not hitting the chosens for those 17 seconds? :o

[Didier]

Funny how order is calling for similar nerfs for a 17 second (max) ability now, when they earlier argued that OYG, a permanent lasting similar ability was fine and did not need a nerf.

How about, just not hitting the chosens for those 17 seconds? :o


Please go to www.wardb.com (http://www.wardb.com) and read the tactics chosen have or read the full thread.

Thank you!

[Balcor]

I haven't read the whole shitstorm and I want to come out unscathed at the least. First thing first, I agree the damage posted in the pics is absurd and not warranted, and something needs to be done with it.

Now, my question, has bane shield been changed in any of the last patches to it's current state? and if it's been like this for a long time, why is it an issue now? are chosen players that don't understand the power? did On Your Guard make people consider the ability again? What was it?.

1.06 changed it so Chosen abilities like this work off STR instead of INT which is a Chosen's primary dps stat.

[KyogaSvk]

Funny how order is calling for similar nerfs for a 17 second (max) ability now, when they earlier argued that OYG, a permanent lasting similar ability was fine and did not need a nerf.

How about, just not hitting the chosens for those 17 seconds? :o

Try to "dont hit anyone 30 feet of a chosen for 17 seconds in a fortress raid" and than say something..

[Arrelaine]

I don't agree with keeping the stacking. It would be much simpler to just do away with it, then leave it at that.

[Balcor]

Funny how order is calling for similar nerfs for a 17 second (max) ability now, when they earlier argued that OYG, a permanent lasting similar ability was fine and did not need a nerf.

How about, just not hitting the chosens for those 17 seconds? :o

Well given that Destruction has more players on all but a very few servers, that means there are more chances of running into multiple Chosen in warbands. Plus the fact that BS+DS affects all allies so you can't hit anyone for those 17 seconds assuming there's just 1 Chosen.

[Rozerick]

Funny how order is calling for similar nerfs for a 17 second (max) ability now, when they earlier argued that OYG, a permanent lasting similar ability was fine and did not need a nerf.

How about, just not hitting the chosens for those 17 seconds? :o

I don't think you understand what the ability actually does. lol

[ManiaCCC]

Try to "dont hit anyone 30 feet of a chosen for 17 seconds in a fortress raid" and than say something..

WoW..bane shield has a purpose.. NERF IT!!!

[Rozerick]

WoW..bane shield has a purpose.. NERF IT!!!

Too bad OYG doesn't have a purpose anymore. :P

C wut I did ther?

But truthfully I could care less if they nerfed it or not.

[ManiaCCC]

Too bad OYG doesn't have a purpose anymore. :P

Yea,, it such a weak ability..

/sarcasm off

This is classic.. something is OP.. (face it, OYG was OP as hell).. they nerfed it and now for most players it's usless... As destruction player, belive me.... OYG can hurt still VERY hard... but it's not totall I win button anymore..

[PinkysBrain]

Oh man, if 50 DPS is very hard then what is Dire Shielding?

[Didier]

Yea,, it such a weak ability..

/sarcasm off

This is classic.. something is OP.. (face it, OYG was OP as hell).. they nerfed it and now for most players it's usless... As destruction player, belive me.... OYG can hurt still VERY hard... but it's not totall I win button anymore..

Hard? From a disciple? Only when you AoE 4 or 5 groups, and then your HoT will heal it away.

Please bring more reasoning here.

As of now, please go back to the OYG-Nerf Freads read all of them and then come back again. You will find a lot of Orderplayers saying nerf OYG.

But as of now, the mechanic of DS + BS is on the table. Not BS alone!

DS is the more the problem!

So that you know what the real reason is. As i can see you haven't read and post a nobrain-comment as most others here (including many -Orders did)

Thanks for your time reading this (also counts for ORDER-QQs)

[Cat0234]

I have a question.

Bane Shield, and Dire shielding have been working the same way since the release several months ago, yes?

Why is this being brought up now, why wasn't it brought up several months ago?

[ManiaCCC]

Oh man, if 50 DPS is very hard then what is Dire Shielding?
Here we are again.. compare apples and oranges...

btw, in big battles and in AoE hell, Encouraged Aim is much more deadly IMO .. with only one tactic slot... and yes, it's Aura..

[Didier]

I have a question.

Bane Shield, and Dire shielding have been working the same way since the release several months ago, yes?

Why is this being brought up now, why wasn't it brought up several months ago?

Read a few postings above there you will find the answer.

Thx for reading mate!

[KyogaSvk]

I have a question.

Bane Shield, and Dire shielding have been working the same way since the release several months ago, yes?

Why is this being brought up now, why wasn't it brought up several months ago?

More fortress sieges , more rvr , the envy that our aoe kills every caster that dares to use it when a chosen is in a siege ....

[ManiaCCC]

More fortress sieges , more rvr , the envy that our aoe kills every caster that dares to use it when a chosen is in a siege ....

Because every Chosen is using Bane shiled with 2 tactics.. and everyone is in group with chosnes ..and everyone, all the time is within 30ft radius.. wake up...

btw, Svk in your nick means "Slovakia"?

[martyr1777]

Martyr, the advantage would be not having to be the one actually hit.

Korhadril, as I said a couple of times now ... it started to work off strength in 1.06 and it started to hit a lot harder.

Yeah it started to hit harder.. as hard as OYG, imagine that. It's still mitigated damage and OYG isn't.

[Rozerick]

Yea,, it such a weak ability..

/sarcasm off

This is classic.. something is OP.. (face it, OYG was OP as hell).. they nerfed it and now for most players it's usless... As destruction player, belive me.... OYG can hurt still VERY hard... but it's not totall I win button anymore..

I have a couple destruction characters, and I don't even notice OYG.

Oh well, different experiences.

[KyogaSvk]

Because every Chosen is using Bane shiled with 2 tactics.. and everyone is in group with chosnes ..and everyone, all the time is within 30ft radius.. wake up...

btw, Svk in your nick means "Slovakia"?

u dont have to be in party , dire shielding means everyone 30 feet around them ....

yep slovakia(kyoga was taken and wasn't in mood for tinking about something original)

[Rakescar]

Guys it only lasts 10 seconds...

And how many Chosen do you see at once using this at the same time...

And how many of them sacrificed a tactic slot and stay in range of their allies...

Calm down. You might as well flip out on everyone's T4 morales because they can be coordinated and break the game if everyone uses them at once.

[Seto]

More fortress sieges , more rvr , the envy that our aoe kills every caster that dares to use it when a chosen is in a siege ....

Well its nice to have a counter when a BW ROF can hit over half the second floor room while the BW stands safely in a corner downstairs :p

WTB line of sight requirement for area-targetable aoes.

[ManiaCCC]

I have a couple destruction characters, and I don't even notice OYG.

Oh well, different experiences.

My Engineer doesn't have problem with Bane shield either.. :) so..?

[PinkysBrain]

Why do you people keep comparing OYG as if it's still relevant? Once every 2 seconds regardless of number of targets with the effect hit ... that is OYG, 50 DPS at most (it does not crit, doesn't get bonus damage and it can't proc other effects like say Baneshield). OYG effectively does not exist any more.

Old OYG might have been relevant, although essentially even pre-nerf it was less powerful than dire shielding is now ... but it doesn't exist anymore.

[KyogaSvk]

Guys it only lasts 10 seconds...

And how many Chosen do you see at once using this at the same time...

And how many of them sacrificed a tactic slot and stay in range of their allies...

Calm down. You might as well flip out on everyone's T4 morales because they can be coordinated and break the game if everyone uses them at once.

5-6 coordinated chosen and u cant aoe anymore or u are dead:F

[Balcor]

Yeah it started to hit harder.. as hard as OYG, imagine that. It's still mitigated damage and OYG isn't.

It's also NOT the mirror of OYG ... it's the mirror of Shield of the Sun. So comparing them isn't going to get you anywhere. They just have a slightly similar effect except that BS + DS is ALL dmg taken where as OYG was melee dmg ONLY.

[Didier]

Guys it only lasts 10 seconds...

And how many Chosen do you see at once using this at the same time...

And how many of them sacrificed a tactic slot and stay in range of their allies...

Calm down. You might as well flip out on everyone's T4 morales because they can be coordinated and break the game if everyone uses them at once.

Do you really wanna know? When you are a teamplaying Chosen this WILL get to be the MUST HAVE! And you have 5 different tacticstances you can switch. So what?

/sarcasm on:
Oh damn. Only 4 more Tacticstances left for different situations.
/sarcasm off:

You make it real easy for yourself. I have to envy you. ;)

[ManiaCCC]

u dont have to be in party , dire shielding means everyone 30 feet around them ....

yep slovakia(kyoga was taken and wasn't in mood for tinking about something original)

Ok..sory for group part, you are right..

and btw: Zdravim :)

Do you really wanna know? When you are a teamplaying Chosen this WILL get to be the MUST HAVE! And you have 5 different tacticstances you can switch. So what?

/sarcasm on:
Oh damn. Only 4 more Tacticstances left for different situations.
/sarcasm off:

You make it real easy for yourself. I have to envy you.

Point is... you must sill sacrfice 50% of tacitc slots for one ability to have full potential. And you know, get ot of combat in WAR is much harder than in WoW for example.. so changing tactics is not viable option.

[Rozerick]

My Engineer doesn't have problem with Bane shield either.. :) so..?

Well you and I are just that leet then.

[PinkysBrain]

Well its nice to have a counter when a BW ROF can hit over half the second floor room while the BW stands safely in a corner downstairs :p
Well it's nice that you guys have a counter ... I mean besides Discordant Fluctuation AND Tzeentch Reflection.

3 AoE counters vs 0, 3 AoE disorients vs 0 ... but hell, at least we can still win Tor bloody Anroc (and we can play fetch outside of keeps, but as I say in my sig I doubt that will last long).

[martyr1777]

So that we understand us.

The nerf had to be. We both share the same opinion. With KotbS the same was done as will be done with DS and BS now.

If Mythic would be smart they should remove the stacking for DS+BS and remove the stacking for OYG.

In the source-code OYG hasn't been fixed at all! They just made a database adjustement (may it be SQL DB4 or whatever) so that they have more time to fix the real coding. (Just my opinion as i am DB and Network-Admin, could also be false)

The perfect solution imho would be:
- DB doesn't stack and has a 0.5 timer
- DS doesn't stack and has NO timer (DS just having to use 1 tactic to make it good)
- OYG doesn't stack and has a 0.5 timer
- Shield of the sun can be beefed up with a tactic same as chosen

What would we have then?
2 Tanks that are a threat and few would ignore them.

Whats your opinion bro?

Sorry I can't accept that myself. First if you bring OYG back with just a .5 sec proc limit, then give SotS the same tactic as DS then you have -two- really nice damage reflenctions where as the Chosen has one nice one and medeocre one (DF). Lets face it, DF can't compare to OYG because magic attacks come at a far slower rate then melee attacks and it affects a much smaller number of classes.

I honestly don't know what would be better middle group for OYG, I'm ok with the 2 sec proc limit, but that's because I saw it completely destroy the 3 dual weilding classes destro has. So I'll admit to being a little biased on it. If BS+DS wasn't that but only BS, then I'd say hit it the same way. But the usuage is some completely different it does have to have a significantly better result then OYG. I'm not saying the way the two are now are balanced, but its better then how it was with OYG pre-nerf.

*shrug*

[Didier]

Well it's nice that you guys have a counter ... I mean besides Discordant Fluctuation AND Tzeentch Reflection.

3 AoE counters vs 0, 3 AoE disorients vs 0 ... but hell, at least we can still win Tor bloody Anroc.

Sad story making me more sad :cry:

[Didier]

Sorry I can't accept that myself. First if you bring OYG back with just a .5 sec proc limit, then give SotS the same tactic as DS then you have -two- really nice damage reflenctions where as the Chosen has one nice one and medeocre one (DF). Lets face it, DF can't compare to OYG because magic attacks come at a far slower rate then melee attacks and it affects a much smaller number of classes.

I honestly don't know what would be better middle group for OYG, I'm ok with the 2 sec proc limit, but that's because I saw it completely destroy the 3 dual weilding classes destro has. So I'll admit to being a little biased on it. If BS+DS wasn't that but only BS, then I'd say hit it the same way. But the usuage is some completely different it does have to have a significantly better result then OYG. I'm not saying the way the two are now are balanced, but its better then how it was with OYG pre-nerf.

*shrug*

Just let DS + BS also count for DoTs and we are up to the same level.

See..

There goes the neighborhood ;)

Edit:
Much fewer classes? Come on Bud, what healer doesn't DoT when he's bored?

[Rakescar]

Until I see screens of people actually managing to do this, and do it enough that it becomes unstoppable I'll be more inclined to agree that it's too much. Right now it just sounds like the next thing on the list to cry about, somebody found Bane Shield and suddenly started believing that if people coordinate enough (Which is true for ANY skill) it'll be game-breaking.

I'd hope coordination and teamwork were powerful factors, but damn we can't even have that now.

[Xandax]

Well it's nice that you guys have a counter ... I mean besides Discordant Fluctuation AND Tzeentch Reflection.
<snip>


And people claim there is no Destruction bias.
All nice and well that one factions gets a counter when the other doesn't.
And of course all the Destruction players will downplay this major advantage - naturally - heaven forbid we actually get an equal playing field some day.

[martyr1777]

It's also NOT the mirror of OYG ... it's the mirror of Shield of the Sun. So comparing them isn't going to get you anywhere. They just have a slightly similar effect except that BS + DS is ALL dmg taken where as OYG was melee dmg ONLY.

And as I said much earlier, the only reason I compare it to OYG is because EVERYONE ELSE COMPLAINING about it endlessly compares it to OYG. So I'm fighting on their ground.

Thanks

[Didier]

And as I said much earlier, the only reason I compare it to OYG is because EVERYONE ELSE COMPLAINING about it endlessly compares it to OYG. So I'm fighting on their ground.

Thanks

At one point you have no other chance as to compare it with OYG. You can do as much as you want. SotS is User-Only, and that's the point where you can't compare it any more. Throw the 2 Chosen Tactis out the window and DS and SotS are truly the same, true.

That's the main reason. DS can be beefed up pretty nicely.

[Balcor]

Until I see screens of people actually managing to do this, and do it enough that it becomes unstoppable I'll be more inclined to agree that it's too much. Right now it just sounds like the next thing on the list to cry about, somebody found Bane Shield and suddenly started believing that if people coordinate enough (Which is true for ANY skill) it'll be game-breaking.

I'd hope coordination and teamwork were powerful factors, but damn we can't even have that now.

so apparently the screenshots of 9 people dying to BS in the span of 3 seconds wasn't enough? or shots showing 1,000+ dmg reflected per second isn't enough either?

By all means, please point the rest of us to the Order equivalent to these tactics that reflects similar dmg numbers.

[ManiaCCC]

At one point you have no other chance as to compare it with OYG. You can do as much as you want. SotS is User-Only, and that's the point where you can't compare it any more. Throw the 2 Chosen Tactis out the window and DS and SotS are truly the same, true.

That's the main reason. DS can be beefed up pretty nicely.

Yea..right.. I agree.. Bane Shield should be nerfed in same way like OYG.. but don't forget remove two tactic slots for Knights... I think it would be fair then.

[Gakt]

Sorry I can't accept that myself. First if you bring OYG back with just a .5 sec proc limit, then give SotS the same tactic as DS then you have -two- really nice damage reflenctions where as the Chosen has one nice one and medeocre one (DF). Lets face it, DF can't compare to OYG because magic attacks come at a far slower rate then melee attacks and it affects a much smaller number of classes.

I honestly don't know what would be better middle group for OYG, I'm ok with the 2 sec proc limit, but that's because I saw it completely destroy the 3 dual weilding classes destro has. So I'll admit to being a little biased on it. If BS+DS wasn't that but only BS, then I'd say hit it the same way. But the usuage is some completely different it does have to have a significantly better result then OYG. I'm not saying the way the two are now are balanced, but its better then how it was with OYG pre-nerf.

*shrug*

I can go there and it was extremely powerful against those 3 classes.

Now BS + DS is extremely powerful against any AoE attack. It is so powerful that Engis and BW will not do there main attacks because it will kill them. I have seen it happen... funny as hell but certainly not balanced.

With this ability, you completely cripple the order in making any AoE attacks against a well coordinated warband.

EDIT: Dont get me wrong, I like to win but I like to win because of skill and not a stupid I-WIN button.

[Balcor]

Yea..right.. I agree.. Bane Shield should be nerfed in same way like OYG.. but don't forget remove two tactic slots for Knights... I think it would be fair then.

Apparently you missed the part where OYG is an aura not a tactic thus NOT the mirror of Bane Shield.

Bane Shield should be compared to Shield of the Sun and in that respect they are equals... it's when you toss in Dire Shielding that makes Bane Shield vastly over powered .. because it now gets tossed on all allies within 30 feet AND it stacks among multiple Chosen.

[martyr1777]

Just let DS + BS also count for DoTs and we are up to the same level.

See..

There goes the neighborhood ;)

Edit:
Much fewer classes? Come on Bud, what healer doesn't DoT when he's bored?


Tell you what... leave OYG as is now, iffy at best just like DF. Then change Sunfurty tactic to group and DS to group and we call it good.

[Gakt]

Yea..right.. I agree.. Bane Shield should be nerfed in same way like OYG.. but don't forget remove two tactic slots for Knights... I think it would be fair then.

See honestly I dont think they should remove the tactic, I think it adds the right amount of difference between the two classes. I do think however that there should be a cooldown to prevent AoE attacks ( and AoE attacks alone ) from getting the shaft here. 1 second would be sufficient on DS and leave everything the same.

Is there a reason why this would be horribly bad? ( Besides the obvious of it completely being OP against AoE attacks which is why it should be nerfed )

[Gakt]

Tell you what... leave OYG as is now, iffy at best just like DF. Then change Sunfurty tactic to group and DS to group and we call it good.

DEAL. Good idea actually. This would remove the insta gib 2k damage and would make it cap at 6 people ( high end ).

Although if it was changed to this removing the stacking would be probably be needed as well.

EDIT: Does OYG stack with 2 or more KotBS in the same group running it?

[Dzuku]

We've been complaining about that on BW forums for a month now and no hotfix yet. OYG got hotfixed in 2 weeks because WE and Marauders cried a river of tears but our true game breaking conserns which affect fortress warfare are left by the wayside. This is the reason why i am quiting on thursday. GL peeps! This game is so biased that I don't even know where to start. I wish there was a way to get the money back for waisting $59.99 on the DVD, cause you can't call this "thing" a game.

[Didier]

Tell you what... leave OYG as is now, iffy at best just like DF. Then change Sunfurty tactic to group and DS to group and we call it good.

/signed ;)

Edit: But i'll start again crying a river as Destro did when Mythic doesn't do something.
Just so to keep it alive and someone may notice it.

[Didier]

DEAL. Good idea actually. This would remove the insta gib 2k damage and would make it cap at 6 people ( high end ).

Although if it was changed to this removing the stacking would be probably be needed as well.

EDIT: Does OYG stack with 2 or more KotBS in the same group running it?

OYG doesn't stack any more

[KyogaSvk]

ManiaCCC see, its something a good warband can use to counter every aoe with little effort, imagine how many kotbs it would need to achieve the same results vs destro aoe
...

btw zdar sry za neodpisovanie ale bol som so psom:D

[PinkysBrain]

I wonder what would happen if a group of chosen use a guard chain (ala the OYG exploit) and all pop Dire Shielding ...

[ManiaCCC]

See honestly I dont think they should remove the tactic, I think it adds the right amount of difference between the two classes. I do think however that there should be a cooldown to prevent AoE attacks ( and AoE attacks alone ) from getting the shaft here. 1 second would be sufficient on DS and leave everything the same.

Is there a reason why this would be horribly bad? ( Besides the obvious of it completely being OP against AoE attacks which is why it should be nerfed )

1 second for 2 tactics slots?? Really?

Maybe.... just Maybe when Bane shield will proc on autoattack and dual wield and has larger radius..at least 75ft...

but what about dimishing return oon AoE attacks? Lets say, if you hit two targets protected by Bane shield you will be backlashed for 100% shield damage.. but for 3rd and next targets damage would be lowered..like only 75% for 3rd target, 50% damage for 4th target and 25% for other targets.. Something like this would be much better solution than just plain nerfing.

[Ellessidil]

DEAL. Good idea actually. This would remove the insta gib 2k damage and would make it cap at 6 people ( high end ).

Although if it was changed to this removing the stacking would be probably be needed as well.

EDIT: Does OYG stack with 2 or more KotBS in the same group running it?

Stacking shouldnt even be an option with these kinds of skills. Group or ally wide, it doesnt matter.

It causes problems, as you have to balance for stacking, and if you dont put a cap on how many can stack together, it makes things really unbalanced really easily with even the most rudimentary of skills.

Now putting a limit to how many times it can stack, and/or any of the other things mentioned are viable options for tuning these skills.

And the suggestion of changing the Sunfury tactic to affect the group as well is a good one. Could be used as the solution, or a part of the solution to the balancing.

[Didier]

I wonder what would happen if a group of chosen use a guard chain (ala the OYG exploit) and all pop Dire Shielding ...

Damn.... Now they'll think about it! Big mistake!

Hehe :cool:

[martyr1777]

DEAL. Good idea actually. This would remove the insta gib 2k damage and would make it cap at 6 people ( high end ).

Although if it was changed to this removing the stacking would be probably be needed as well.

EDIT: Does OYG stack with 2 or more KotBS in the same group running it?

Sorry, figured the elimination of stacking was understood. No powers like these should -ever- stack.

Now we just need Mythic to see this and put the compromise in place.

[Gakt]

1 second for 2 tactics slots?? Really?

Maybe.... just Maybe when Bane shield will proc on autoattack and dual wield and has larger radius..at least 75ft...

but what about dimishing return oon AoE attacks? Lets say, if you hit two targets protected by Bane shield you will be backlashed for 100% shield damage.. but for 3rd and next targets damage would be lowered..like only 75% for 3rd target, 50% damage for 4th target and 25% for other targets.. Something like this would be much better solution than just plain nerfing.

Thats a great idea too, I just think it would be really hard to implement from a development stand point, or would be too intensive to have those type of calculations running during a huge battle.

But solutions like these are the types that need to be done. I think everyone agrees at least now that the effect this can have on AoE is just way to powerful.

Diminishing returns, cooldown, reduce it to party, the stacking, etc, etc Should be looked at from the development stand point and at least one of them implemented.

EDIT: Also the cooldown should be implemented on the DS tactic, not the BS ability. If that matters...

[Gakt]

Sorry, figured the elimination of stacking was understood. No powers like these should -ever- stack.

Now we just need Mythic to see this and put the compromise in place.

Cool.

**Calls Mythic headquarters to make them aware of the change**

[Didier]

/bump so that Mythic will notice it and take a look at the mechanics behind it.

Also look here:

FIX bane shield exploit ! RvR-Forum
Chosen Aura Empire / Bright Wizard-Forum

Ability Critting:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/Siannah/scorpio002of3.jpg

Another one:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/Siannah/scorpio005dc9.jpg

And even more:
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=war2008122820043945hv8bw6.jpg

[genius loci]

How cute, and naive. Are you new to the Internet?He might be, but he is not new to MMOs, which is the essential thing in that case. If I get killed for throwing an AoE on your team as an Engineer, it means that one single ability, even if it requires a tactic slot (oh, my, is it so hard to choose what to drop for a skill that will kill the the Order squishies?), is essentially the hard counter to my... no, wait - to two order classes.

RDPS is becoming useless. First people stack resists which cuts RDPS damage to oblivion, then they can suicide (oh, and BWs already can do it) for doing their supposed purpose on the field.

Working as intended? Yeah, sure, now if we all were Chosens, it will be so much fun for... erm, who will nuke then?

30 secs CD working up to 17 seconds (another tactic slot) for an ability that will probably make opposing team stop the attack? This is cheap and needs to be changed the same way as most of those "reflected" or thicking abilities work - tied to a second or two timers).

Even the BWs armor buff is just 10 seconds with no means to extend it (Sorcerers get the resist buff, which would be way better ability if it wasn't sharing the 10 seconds timer with long CD)

There is no way to proove this ability is worthless or not affecting the game to the point it ruins the game. Just because it is broken in its current incarnation and it needs to be toned down.

[Didier]

Thx for supporting me bro.

On page 2 he got his share from me and since then he didn't write back. :cool:


Maybe he was missing arguments.

[genius loci]

It's just easier to insult than to answer with arguments, as it seems.

[WNxKenwayy]

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225803w

BS does not stack
DF does not stack

BS can be mitigated (spirit damage)
DF cannot be mitigated

BS is a blessing and thus can be removed.
DF is an aura and cannot be removed.

Them's the facts.

[ahbab]

Stop talking before exploring. BS does not stack. You see it twice on target cuz of buff bug that shows buffs that have expired as still functional.

[WNxKenwayy]

Just thought of a way it could appear to stack.

If two chosen are running BS, and BS only without tactics, then it would appear to stack if you AoE'd them. This is because the base level of BS only affects the Chosen themselves and no one else. So there would be no check to see which Chosen's BS was a higher level. It isn't actually stacking, it would just appear that way.

The true test of if an ability is stacking is to hit a single target under the affect of multiple BS's. However, this is easily tested by using NPC mob's, has already been done so, and is proven to act as predicted. Multiple BS's on the same PC do not stack.

[Fiale]

lest try and get beyond all this and decide whether Bane shield/Df should work as it does.


In a Fortress attempt

60 / 100 / 300 people attacking a gate in one area or on the stairs. You need out of all those people just 4 chosen with BS/DF 2 on the gate and 2 in the mass of DPS attacking the gate (or the stairs) - anyone attempting to AoE these people will die.

Is that working as intended ? Are 4 chosen meant to render the whole of orders defence irrelevant ?

Thats where this is imbalanced as Destruction are free to rain down AoE as much as they want in these situations prett much safe other than Order players attacks. Order players just kill themselves on a shield - no Destruction activity required just 4 chosen amongst the 100+ ----- sorry but thats not balance.

[ManiaCCC]

Hey Didier..one question..why you think Bane shield shouldn't be able to crit?

It can be mitigated and defended.. so in my book...criting is not bug or exploit.

[martyr1777]

Hey Didier..one question..why you think Bane shield shouldn't be able to crit?

It can be mitigated and defended.. so in my book...criting is not bug or exploit.

Likely because OYG doesn't crit, but then OYG isn't mitigated and can't be defended either.

[Narfolr]

What if AoE damage only affected 9 people max? Isn't that what it effects now? Maybe AoE damage is hitting more people that it's supposed to if people are being insta-gibbed. Mythic should probably examine their cap system for AoE as well to ensure it's not effecting more than the cap they have set.

Then you would just take 9 x (150) + 120 per tick if both groups had Chosen in them. Spam AoE heals from WPs might be able to keep up with that.

[Arrelaine]

I don't see why we're still talking about OYG. It's not the mirror to the Chosen's BS. I hope they leave BS the same, but get rid of stacking (if it does). There needs to be more tactic to defending than 'aoe them all down!'. With a well defended keep and oil, it's not hard to take down 4 chosen.

[Bruhaus]

I don't see why we're still talking about OYG. It's not the mirror to the Chosen's BS. I hope they leave BS the same, but get rid of stacking (if it does). There needs to be more tactic to defending than 'aoe them all down!'. With a well defended keep and oil, it's not hard to take down 4 chosen.

agreed on more tactics in keep sieges/defense. but it has to go both ways. currently destro can simply "aoe them all down" while order cannot. how do u destro guys not see this as a major imbalance?

[Arrelaine]

You know that gaoe can be used on the walls, right? Have the BWs and engineers use their gaoe on people around the oil, they group up around it, and it's easy to kill them. This is what destro does when they see a ton of BWs on the walls. Use GoN on the oil, and bam, everyone in 20ft is taking damage. They have to move away from it, and thus not be able to dps people below.

Also, before someone brings this up, no Chosen aren't likely going to be standing on the walls with casters. They'll be waiting in the Lord's room, because unless the melee/tanks form a wall at the stairs, they're useless in defending keeps. Hence why there are very few tanks (at least on our server) who participate in defending. They usually leave, or put a 2h on (which makes them easy to take down).

[Ellessidil]

You know that gaoe can be used on the walls, right? Have the BWs and engineers use their gaoe on people around the oil, they group up around it, and it's easy to kill them. This is what destro does when they see a ton of BWs on the walls. Use GoN on the oil, and bam, everyone in 20ft is taking damage. They have to move away from it, and thus not be able to dps people below.

Also, before someone brings this up, no Chosen aren't likely going to be standing on the walls with casters. They'll be waiting in the Lord's room, because unless the melee/tanks form a wall at the stairs, they're useless in defending keeps. Hence why there are very few tanks (at least on our server) who participate in defending. They usually leave, or put a 2h on (which makes them easy to take down).

I find it hard to believe that they would be there waiting the entire time before the doors even break.

Which means they can be up there standing with the casters at the oil until the time comes that the 2nd door is about to drop, and THEN they go and form the tank wall at the ramp.

So Chosen can help protect the casters on the walls at the oil from GAoE during keep seiges. And there is no reason they shouldnt be, as it takes more than 20 seconds to break into a keep, and thats about all it takes to setup a tank wall on the ramp. So if they arent choosing ot use that other time to help their teammates, that just means they are a bad player, and nothing more.

[Stormblazer]

Just thought of a way it could appear to stack.

If two chosen are running BS, and BS only without tactics, then it would appear to stack if you AoE'd them. This is because the base level of BS only affects the Chosen themselves and no one else. So there would be no check to see which Chosen's BS was a higher level. It isn't actually stacking, it would just appear that way.

The true test of if an ability is stacking is to hit a single target under the affect of multiple BS's. However, this is easily tested by using NPC mob's, has already been done so, and is proven to act as predicted. Multiple BS's on the same PC do not stack.
Stacking or not, it's still too strong as it hits once per target - in keep defense where there is a lot of people within 30ft of the chosen, this means a single AoE DoT can almost kill an RDPS. And you guys thought OYG was bad?

[Arrelaine]

When they fix the stacking issue, maybe try taking Chosen down before aoeing people. Kind of like when you try to kill the healers first?

[Player Killer]

When they fix the stacking issue with OYG, maybe try taking KOTBS down before aoeing people. Kind of like when you try to kill the healers first?

Fixed..
Now you see what you just wrote?

[solthar]

Ah well, I'll just be shelving my lvl 40 engineer until this is adressed somehow. As I'm level 40, I'm either doing Bastion Stairs, or RvR. BS/DS basically removes the RvR from my agenda. Also, as this issue gets more exposure, and as more chosen level up, there will be more and more who chose this combo - in the same vein as the engy EM fad.

Thought about it for a bit, and came to the following conclusion;
I enjoy my Engineer and all, but getting instagibbed with no counter is not my idea of fun. If it's not fun, why do it? This removes half (or more!) of the game accessible to my Engineer. Why play only half a game?

Time to continue leveling my rune priest. At least the only thing that insta-gibs her are WE's -- and THEY can be countered.

[ManiaCCC]

Fixed..
Now you see what you just wrote?

Too bad KotBS wasnt even there to take him down :)..at least manytimes they were hiding in nice 150ft away spot and farm kills...

[trickykid]

Too bad KotBS wasnt even there to take him down :)..at least manytimes they were hiding in nice 150ft away spot and farm kills...

Was that all that was bothering you?! Cause we can have them put it back the way it was and just reduce the range. Would that be cool with you?

Seriously, you're REALLY grasping at straws suggesting it was being exploited this way. Heck, wouldn't a lone KOTBS by himself 150 ft away be exactly what you want to be able to kill him by himself?

[ManiaCCC]

Was that all that was bothering you?! Cause we can have them put it back the way it was and just reduce the range. Would that be cool with you?

Seriously, you're REALLY grasping at straws suggesting it was being exploited this way. Heck, wouldn't a lone KOTBS by himself 150 ft away be exactly what you want to be able to kill him by himself?

Can you read ? I really doubt.

[Chupper]

Too bad KotBS wasnt even there to take him down :)..at least manytimes they were hiding in nice 150ft away spot and farm kills...

Everyone assisting on one target with single target damage spells solves that problem as well...doesnt it? You know the same that people are telling engineers and bw's to do.

[Arrelaine]

That would work, if most spells weren't less than 100ft. The KotBS could stand out of reach of any ranged attack. 100ft>30ft, obviously. So it's much easier to single target dps a Chosen from a wall, than it was for a KotBS.

[Caeli]

When they fix the stacking issue, maybe try taking Chosen down before aoeing people. Kind of like when you try to kill the healers first?
Funny, when OYG behaved just like BS/DS does now we suggested that marauders do the same thing. What was the response?


QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Easy to ask for nerfs when it doesn't affect your own faction eh?

[MrBlaze]

Do like the rest; reroll destruction :p

Seriously, this is a big issue - mostly cause on some server, it means that order will NEVER attack a keep thats defended, in the long run it just ruins RvR. As we are already seeing most people doesnt attack keeps with any kind of descent defense, and as order - there is no point in trying when attacking the tank wall is suicide.

Even running up and AoE knockback the tank wall to get into the room wont work. When inside the lords room its a quick fight about who got the most AoE :p This skill ruins any balance - I throw an AoE - and I die...

But eh, just another skill that helps to kill Orvr, we've more or less just stoped attacking keeps and settled for abit of roaming rvr and the occational defense. Much more enjoyable. Seems like both the server we play on - Order is just giving up any attempts of doing real ORvR and leaving the game or rerolling. Population issues seems to be the major problem, but it doesnt help when there are skills like this.

[Arrelaine]

Funny, when OYG behaved just like BS/DS does now we suggested that marauders do the same thing. What was the response?


QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Easy to ask for nerfs when it doesn't affect your own faction eh?

Destro only asked to fix the stacking issue. Same as you guys are.

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ yourself.

[Chupper]

That would work, if most spells weren't less than 100ft. The KotBS could stand out of reach of any ranged attack. 100ft>30ft, obviously. So it's much easier to single target dps a Chosen from a wall, than it was for a KotBS.

But the thing is that it counts only for physical damage, so it would've only hurt the squigs (sorcs and magus would still do crazy aoe dmg) in a keep siege pretty much, since we all know melee is only good for blocking chokepoints in keep/fort fights. And the range problem quickly disappears when there's not a keep/fort there hence why my solution would still be the same thing as people are suggesting with focusing down the chosen.
Oh and you know whats even easier? Pressing pit of shades over and over again near the door without worries.

[Arrelaine]

Even in a scenario, if a KotBS is hanging back protecting the squishes, it would be hard for melee to get through a line of tanks and other mdps, and they'd still affect everyone in their group. If Chosen hung around the back protecting healers, they're not much of an issue until you get to the back lines, or within 30ft of casting.

[Chupper]

Even in a scenario, if a KotBS is hanging back protecting the squishes, it would be hard for melee to get through a line of tanks and other mdps, and they'd still affect everyone in their group. If Chosen hung around the back protecting healers, they're not much of an issue until you get to the back lines, or within 30ft of casting.

Ok so nerfing the range of the aura would have solved the problem then. Correct?

I thought I saw alot of marauders complaining about the dmg when they were spamming aoe skills... I must've been drunk or something I guess..

But yes I agree that OYG was too strong, but I feel the same way about this skill with that tactic. I'm just following the logic here because there seems to be a pattern for all the nerf crys, one side says "Try this" while the other side just keeps on screaming nerf.

[Arrelaine]

The thing with OYG and people complaining about the damage is the same problem with BS. It was stacking. All they had to do was get rid of the stacking when it was taken off and the 12s duration was still on, that's it. That's all destro wanted, but Mythic took the nerf more. It's the same problem with BS.

What I've been saying is, get rid of the stacking problem. Once the stacking problem is gone, that reduces quite a bit of the damage taken. Once that's taken care of, there shouldn't be any more complaining.

[trickykid]

Ok so nerfing the range of the aura would have solved the problem then. Correct?

Yup. Sounds like we have concensus from Destro that they would like OYG back the way it was just with reduced range.

[Arrelaine]

Yup. Sounds like we have concensus from Destro that they would like OYG back the way it was just with reduced range.

No, the problem was stacking. His point was pre-nerf, destro should have done the same thing. My point was that the KotBS could just hang back 150ft and it would be difficult to break lines and get to him.

The problem is same thing with BS, there's too much damage being taken, due to stacking, not base damage, just one buff on everyone within 30ft would fix the problem. As far as I can see, OYG would have been fine with out the other nerfs.

In other words, FIX BS.

To further clarify: After they fix the stacking issue, the Chosen should be focus fired.

[Chupper]

To further clarify: After they fix the stacking issue, the Chosen should be focus fired.

I still fear the tactic with BS+DF would be a bit too strong in fort fights. I think the biggest complain is the lack of anti-AOE on one side of the fence, not sure people would complain about it if sorcs and magus were denied aoe spamming without a dedicated healer humping them all the time.

[MoxEp]

It shouldnt stack. Im from one of the screenies btw. woot fame!

Other Chosen wanting it to stack are jsut looking for an Op skill. Sorry guys stacking is just too much.
We had maybe 4 running DS/BS at the top of the ramp. It jsut locks down half the Order in the siege and leaves tanks and healers to fight. Sadly you cant make half a raid redundent.

The stacking needs to go but Dire needs to be left alone or made group only. it makes a pretty bland skill into a pretty decent one. Although group only would take away a lot of its flavour it would still be very decent.
Without the stacking Ae spammers are still gonna take significant damage but it wont be insta gib which is fine.

just to add as someone else has pointed out BS effecting people around you closes the gap between the 2 mirror skills OYG and DF. DF will always fall behind because Casters attack at a much slower pace. BS needs to effect multiple targets to give Chosen a method to keep up.

[Arrelaine]

Like I said in the other thread about this (dunno why we have two threads about it), but give KotBS the same tactics, name em something different, and fancy. Then take the other two tactics they have for Shield of the Sun away. Then Destro has the same thing. I would prefer not to encourage mindless zerging.

[MoxEp]

Like I said in the other thread about this (dunno why we have two threads about it), but give KotBS the same tactics, name em something different, and fancy. Then take the other two tactics they have for Shield of the Sun away. Then Destro has the same thing. I would prefer not to encourage mindless zerging.

ignore me. its late here :)

[Arrelaine]

ignore me. its late here :)

Well, I'm glad you came. A chosen saying take away the stacking doesn't make it seem like all Destro thinks it should stay the same. lol

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Make it two then, no way BS should stack.

[trickykid]

It shouldnt stack. Im from one of the screenies btw. woot fame!

Other Chosen wanting it to stack are jsut looking for an Op skill. Sorry guys stacking is just too much.
We had maybe 4 running DS/BS at the top of the ramp. It jsut locks down half the Order in the siege and leaves tanks and healers to fight. Sadly you cant make half a raid redundent.

The stacking needs to go but Dire needs to be left alone or made group only. it makes a pretty bland skill into a pretty decent one. Although group only would take away a lot of its flavour it would still be very decent.
Without the stacking Ae spammers are still gonna take significant damage but it wont be insta gib which is fine.

just to add as someone else has pointed out BS effecting people around you closes the gap between the 2 mirror skills OYG and DF. DF will always fall behind because Casters attack at a much slower pace. BS needs to effect multiple targets to give Chosen a method to keep up.

Casters attack at a slower pace, but they are also squishier and their AoEs are bigger. Also, a tank or mdps class attacking somebody has better armor and more HP and is also probably the focus of their team's healing/defense buffs.

Destro doesn't like being AoE'd to death by casters. Reasonable enough. BS only on your group and non-stacking. But OYG still needs to be improved. An mdps class can theoretically work in something like 5 melee attacks in 2 seconds. So OYG will only proc off as few as 20% of melee attacks.....more realistic is 33% or at best 50%. And that's being deflected back on either a tank or mdps class that is probably geared with higher HP and is also already the target of his team's healers and defensive buffs.

[Ashonic]

Just thought of a way it could appear to stack.

If two chosen are running BS, and BS only without tactics, then it would appear to stack if you AoE'd them. This is because the base level of BS only affects the Chosen themselves and no one else. So there would be no check to see which Chosen's BS was a higher level. It isn't actually stacking, it would just appear that way.

The true test of if an ability is stacking is to hit a single target under the affect of multiple BS's. However, this is easily tested by using NPC mob's, has already been done so, and is proven to act as predicted. Multiple BS's on the same PC do not stack.


to add to that



http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo139/edracyte/Baneshield.jpg

You'll notice, dispite having multiple baneshields up, its only hitting 2 times per person.

i regret not having 'enemies hits' on, but it was absolute chaos in there.



this leads me to think that, dispite the fact is shows stacks of baneshield, its only hitting 2 times. from:


My own baneshield, which id activated (i have the dire shielding tactic)
Another chosen's Baneshield.

it'd be neat if we can get screenies from non-chosen players showing thier baneshield effects.

[genius loci]

No, the problem was stacking. His point was pre-nerf, destro should have done the same thing. My point was that the KotBS could just hang back 150ft and it would be difficult to break lines and get to him.

The problem is same thing with BS, there's too much damage being taken, due to stacking, not base damage, just one buff on everyone within 30ft would fix the problem. As far as I can see, OYG would have been fine with out the other nerfs.

In other words, FIX BS.

To further clarify: After they fix the stacking issue, the Chosen should be focus fired.I disagree. If I throw a grenade and do 250 damage (before mitigation which turns it to 150 damage) and take back same or more damage from chosen allies, there will be something wrong. I never saw my Acid Grenade to cover more than 6 persons, and it has less effective range than 30 ft. Imagine my entite mastery tree is build for AoE, doesn't matter for me they are stacking or not - I do to myself more damage than I will do. And about focus firing - tanks are already hard to kill due to resist stack and my single target damage is mitigated by armour.

Sucks, no matter how you look at it, as I cannot counter it, except with using the only mastery tree I have which is not AoE...:rolleyes:

Make it non-stacking and applicable either in HtL manner to allies behind chosen or in 20 ft from him. In any case it doesn't change the RvR abuse, as defending a keep requires you to kill the people on the ram, where the chosens more likely are. Other than that I can propose to make it last no more than 10 seconds, non-stacking, similar to BW/Sorcerers self buffs, or to trigger once per second, much like most of the damage abilities in the game.

[WNxKenwayy]

BANESHIELD DOESN"T STACK STOP SAYING IT DOES!

Next, OYG is a damn AURA!!! Wtf do you people not realize the difference between that and BS with tactics? You want them even? Fine. BS needs to be up permanently, doesn't cost AP every 30 seconds, can't be removed through severing a blessing, have a 150 range, AND proc off every tick of a DoT.

Oh wait, whats' that you say? Weeeeellllllllll since OYG proc'd off every..single..melee..attack, it could do absolutely insane damage in almost no time at all. The amount of time's OYG can proc in a single moment of the GCD was much greater than DF can proc and even BS against your oh so lovely AoE's. The absolute most you're going to get DF/BS to proc off your biggest complaint, your AoE's, is once every 1.5 seconds. Throw in same good old cast times and it goes up even further.

The worst you're going to get is BS/DF damage once every 1.5 seconds and that's spamming DoT's which, since neither stacks will do very little damage to you. And if you stop throwing out the DoT's you stop taking DF/BS damage, buuuuuuuuuut your DoT's are still ticing away.

If you can see the vast difference in damage potential between DF/BS, then the simplest method is to look at the difference in total damage of pre-nerf OYG vs df/bs in SC's.

Until you accept the facts, that DF/BS do NOT stack, you have no base knowledge to build your case for a nerf. Simplest way to test is grab two chosen, both with 2 slotted BS, and go attack a mob. Only the highest will proc, period, end of story.

Oh and next time you post some SS, put up ALL the damage done during the period, including your attacks.

[WNxKenwayy]

i disagree. If i throw a grenade and do 250 damage (before mitigation which turns it to 150 damage) and take back same or more damage from chosen allies, there will be something wrong. I never saw my acid grenade to cover more than 6 persons, and it has less effective range than 30 ft. Imagine my entite mastery tree is build for aoe, doesn't matter for me they are stacking or not - i do to myself more damage than i will do. And about focus firing - tanks are already hard to kill due to resist stack and my single target damage is mitigated by armour.

Sucks, no matter how you look at it, as i cannot counter it, except with using the only mastery tree i have which is not aoe...:rolleyes:

make it non-stacking and applicable either in htl manner to allies behind chosen or in 20 ft from him. In any case it doesn't change the rvr abuse, as defending a keep requires you to kill the people on the ram, where the chosens more likely are. Other than that i can propose to make it last no more than 10 seconds, non-stacking, similar to bw/sorcerers self buffs, or to trigger once per second, much like most of the damage abilities in the game.


it doesn't f'in stack!!!!

[genius loci]

Like I EVER stated that it stacks? :confused: :rolleyes:


I will never do that until someone can prove it. Same should be applicable to you I think, as from what I can see on SS (which you all so much insisted to see) I see BS hitting like hammer from different sources and it seems that all you can say about it is erm.. "may be the lag".

OYG procs from physical, BS from any. OYG was nerfed (or better - changed so it doesn't change the game. Tactics or not, BS is way too powerfull after it can shut down AoE casters for 17 of 30 seconds with single Chosen in the group and infinitely with 2 of them. You don't expect that we will all start to play tanks because it's working as intended, right? I want to be able to play Grenadier or AoE BW just as Magi and Sorcerers can play AoE specced w/o fear of dying from getting more damage they atually do.

Oh, and I just started a thread about how order cannot stack so easy BOTH corporeal and spirit resists as Destruction can stack corporeal/elemental. I guess I'm one of the "nerf the destro" crowd now?

[WNxKenwayy]

Like I EVER stated that it stacks? :confused: :rolleyes:


I will never do that until someone can prove it. Same should be applicable to you I think, as from what I can see on SS (which you all so much insisted to see) I see BS hitting like hammer from different sources and it seems that all you can say about it is erm.. "may be the lag".

OYG procs from physical, BS from any. OYG was nerfed (or better - changed so it doesn't change the game. Tactics or not, BS is way too powerfull after it can shut down AoE casters for 17 of 30 seconds with single Chosen in the group and infinitely with 2 of them. You don't expect that we will all start to play tanks because it's working as intended, right? I want to be able to play Grenadier or AoE BW just as Magi and Sorcerers can play AoE specced w/o fear of dying from getting more damage they atually do.

Oh, and I just started a thread about how order cannot stack so easy BOTH corporeal and spirit resists as Destruction can stack corporeal/elemental. I guess I'm one of the "nerf the destro" crowd now?

First, wtf are you stacking corp resis for?

Second, I highlighted the part were you requested it to stop stacking, in case you missed it. It doesn't stack, so stop asking for it not too.

Lastly, last time I checked when I pop BS I don't magically stop taking AoE damage. Somehow, god knows how, I still die, and those around me, to AoE damage. It's crazy I know but somehow your statement that a chosen (or even 2) can shut down all AoE's for 17 out of every 30 seconds just doesn't seem to hold up. Unless I'm somehow doing it wrong and please explain how I am.

[Marsares]

Just typical I have to say. KotBS had stacking OYG, we get a massive Destro hoo-hah and we "hot fix" within days that massively nerfs it. Granted, Bane Shield is not 100% similar, but it stacks nevertheless, has proven to be way OP and yet nothing happens.

I guess it'll get fixed at the same time the WE procs do... never.

[WNxKenwayy]

Just typical I have to say. KotBS had stacking OYG, we get a massive Destro hoo-hah and we "hot fix" within days that massively nerfs it. Granted, Bane Shield is not 100% similar, but it stacks nevertheless, has proven to be way OP and yet nothing happens.

I guess it'll get fixed at the same time the WE procs do... never.

You are illiterate. Read the post. I know it's difficult but please, for all our sakes.

Okay fine here's some crib notes for you as I'm sure you are very familiar with them

1. BS DOES NOT STACK
2. IT IS NOT WAY OP

Helpful?

[Apophisthecursed]

Ah well, I'll just be shelving my lvl 40 engineer until this is adressed somehow. As I'm level 40, I'm either doing Bastion Stairs, or RvR. BS/DS basically removes the RvR from my agenda. Also, as this issue gets more exposure, and as more chosen level up, there will be more and more who chose this combo - in the same vein as the engy EM fad.

Thought about it for a bit, and came to the following conclusion;
I enjoy my Engineer and all, but getting instagibbed with no counter is not my idea of fun. If it's not fun, why do it? This removes half (or more!) of the game accessible to my Engineer. Why play only half a game?

Time to continue leveling my rune priest. At least the only thing that insta-gibs her are WE's -- and THEY can be countered.

So, when OyG could potentially insta-gib a WE, things were great. Now that ranged AoE spam has a counter, NERFNERFNERFnerf it.

[Balcor]

So, when OyG could potentially insta-gib a WE, things were great. Now that ranged AoE spam has a counter, NERFNERFNERFnerf it.

News Flash: OYG was nerfed into the ground.. thus it's no longer a topic of discussion since it's a completely useless skill now. In case you haven't noticed, BS affects ALL types of dmg... OYG was melee only. So when Order gets a combo that lets them negate all AoE spam ... we'll be happy to show your AoE users just how fun it can be to get nearly insta-gibbed each time you cast one.

[Grakthis]

News Flash: OYG was nerfed into the ground.. thus it's no longer a topic of discussion since it's a completely useless skill now. In case you haven't noticed, BS affects ALL types of dmg... OYG was melee only. So when Order gets a combo that lets them negate all AoE spam ... we'll be happy to show your AoE users just how fun it can be to get nearly insta-gibbed each time you cast one.

OYG is a useless skill now? :confused:

I mean, it's not what it used to be... but... it's still really good. Especially PvE.

I think you're engaging in a little hyperbole to make a point?

[genius loci]

First, wtf are you stacking corp resis for?

Second, I highlighted the part were you requested it to stop stacking, in case you missed it. It doesn't stack, so stop asking for it not too.

Lastly, last time I checked when I pop BS I don't magically stop taking AoE damage. Somehow, god knows how, I still die, and those around me, to AoE damage. It's crazy I know but somehow your statement that a chosen (or even 2) can shut down all AoE's for 17 out of every 30 seconds just doesn't seem to hold up. Unless I'm somehow doing it wrong and please explain how I am.Why I stack corp resist as order? Really, a hard question. I stack every resist which makes me take less damage, from mostly spirit (Sorcerer and Magi), corporeal (some of the Sorcerer spells, still more sorcerers than magi) to elemental (Magi became more popular than before. The later I stack unintentionally, it is just on every part of gear. The same way destro stack elemental (BWs, some Engi) and corporeal (most Engi damage, lot of BW's damage) and unintentionally and if it's on gear - spirit, with later coming solely from SMs.

Youhighlighted a part when I requested a lot more than to have non-stacking ability, with stacking not being under question at all. I debated range and how it works and stated it should meet certain requirements, one of them is to be non-stackable. Although I can go the other way and ask you to show me it doesn't stack, as there are less ss that show this, if any. If it stacks - it's a bug and it will get fixed, but if it does more damage back to caster than he is doeing, thats oversight from developers, and clearly should be changed, even if it is not a bug.

Of course you will die from AoE, but in the process you did damage to all casters that AoE on you. Or this is looking just fine? :rolleyes:
So, when OyG could potentially insta-gib a WE, things were great. Now that ranged AoE spam has a counter, NERFNERFNERFnerf it. So you got offended of order anti-nerf defenders and now you are trying to turn it against them? OYG was fixed, happy? This has nothing to do with our current case, which is BS, and feel free to prove me having one chosen in the group should be such bane to RDPS, who are meant to be erm.. anti-tank by design. AoE doesn't need to have a counter - BWs have self damage, Engi have limited AoE power anyway and both careers have AoE mastery trees. It's like having an ability that makes damage to a S&B Tank everytime he blocks, you see? Counter to ranged AoE spam is AoE spam, to do AoE you have to be in the range of opposing nukers. So Order now deals not only with Sorcerers, Magi and (now lets talk about range, huh?) SHs, butwith BS doing more damage than Sorcerer's DoTs.

ROFL. No, it's not broken, it doesn't shut down order AoE, just makes players who use their toons as they are meant to be played to suffer from it. Sorry but I say no to this, as I don't expect you to leave BS or the tactic that expands it in keeps siege just to make it fair for me.

And please, show some reading comprehension and prove yourself resourseful and don't defend a call for nerf when it breaks the game for opposing team. We aren't masochist, nor we want the game to be in our favour (hell, my main is Sorcerer, although lately I enjoy Engineer much more; tired of Sorceress dying, even after nerf, and guess what, I used my AoE in your favour). You will lose exactly as much as any of the Order RDPS who leave their toons and start anothr WP or SM...

[Balcor]

First, wtf are you stacking corp resis for?

Second, I highlighted the part were you requested it to stop stacking, in case you missed it. It doesn't stack, so stop asking for it not too.

Lastly, last time I checked when I pop BS I don't magically stop taking AoE damage. Somehow, god knows how, I still die, and those around me, to AoE damage. It's crazy I know but somehow your statement that a chosen (or even 2) can shut down all AoE's for 17 out of every 30 seconds just doesn't seem to hold up. Unless I'm somehow doing it wrong and please explain how I am.

Except you magically left out the fact you can resist 75% of the magic dmg coming your way. And we're still waiting for even 1 Destruction player to show us a similar tactic on Order's side that will allow Order to shut down / insta-gib the Destruction AoE spammers. Apparently you're not in favor of balance between the realms.. you just want your clearly OP'd abilities so you can steamroll Order at will... esp. in Fortress / Keep sieges.

Sorcs can spam PoS all they want without really taking any reflected dmg. BW's can't use RoF unless they have a dedicated healer on them only. Because they take reflected dmg from BS/DS AND DF. Marauders only have to worry about having a few knights around that might possibly use OYG now that it's on a 2 sec timer... where as Eng. have to worry about BS/DS because 1 napalm and it's instant death (or very nearly). Show me how that's balanced.

[Balcor]

OYG is a useless skill now? :confused:

I mean, it's not what it used to be... but... it's still really good. Especially PvE.

I think you're engaging in a little hyperbole to make a point?

not really, go talk to the Knight community and find out just how many of them run OYG in PvP/RvR situations now... you won't find all that many.

People keep bringing up OYG when discussing BS. It shouldn't happen for a few reasons... OYG has already been nerfed/fixed/changed (whatever you want to call it) so it's a moot point... it lasted all of 2 weeks. Second, OYG is an Aura, BS is a Buff. They are not mirror abilities and shouldn't be compared as such.

[Raynos]

There's a way to counter a tank wall - but I'll be buggered if I'm letting any order players in on it.

It's called a Knockback?

[genius loci]

not really, go talk to the Knight community and find out just how many of them run OYG in PvP/RvR situations now... you won't find all that many. This has nothing to do with usefulness. Not many engi spec Thinkerer out of RvR as it's not the best line, but even fewer take the tactic that makes hip shot KB a bit where I found it an invaluable tool in killing WEs 1vs1 (which is often, Engi rarely got healing in PUGs, so they are on their own). Does the fact that people don't use it much make it useless?

[Zarovich]

See Mythic? Here's the problem! Order is NOT cool! So why the hell did I reroll Order?

I must be plain stupid for rerolling ORDER so that there are enemies for for destro.
Maybe i should go back to TabulaRasa.

You rolled order because they have the top 2 tanks in the game, Iron Breakers and KoTBS. Iron Breakers have the best tank DPS and Mitigation while also having alot of crowd control at their disposal. The KoTBS have much more group utility buffs then the Chosen and better abilities overall.The Bright Wizard still outshines the Sorceror and the Shadow Warrior has excellent range damage also. The Rune Priest is most likely the best healer in the game and the hardest to kill. Also take into consideration that Order's knockbacks are so far superior to Destruction its not even funny. If these are not enough reasons along that made you join Order then roll on my server (Ostermark). Order out numbers us so bad anymore, its comical.

[Raynos]

Bane Shield (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8337)
Not in effect, but in sheer game breaking ability. Every time I try to take a fort, it seems there are tank walls with stacked bane shields. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing about it in concept....

... the reach, though, is just waaay to damn far.

Even if you manage to get halfway across whatever zone you are in at the moment, it will still damage you. There is no range - it is, in effect an ability with infinite range. It totally nullifies any way of countering a tank wall, as any DPS class can't... well, DPS without dying - even with a dedicated healer.

What do I want? Easy! Give the damn thing a range it can hit you at.

And if any order classes have a mirror of that ability, add a range to that too.

Yeah, I gotta agree here. This has the potential to turn a tank into, by far, the highest DPS class in the game. You get a tank wall of 6 in a party, all being hit by 12-15 other melee and ranged DPS, you're easily looking at 2250 DPS... just by standing there, being AFK.

With that tactic, you could potentally have all 6 tanks, standing there, AFK and that party dealing 13500 DPS. That's like a raid boss. l doubt even Emperor Karl Fritz does that much. lol

That's not right.

[Marsares]

You are illiterate. Read the post. I know it's difficult but please, for all our sakes.

Okay fine here's some crib notes for you as I'm sure you are very familiar with them

1. BS DOES NOT STACK
2. IT IS NOT WAY OP

Helpful?

I can read mate, but the dozens of other posts plus the screenshots prove you wrong, so perhaps it'll help if you following a reading course instead?

[Balcor]

You rolled order because they have the top 2 tanks in the game, Iron Breakers and KoTBS. Iron Breakers have the best tank DPS and Mitigation while also having alot of crowd control at their disposal. The KoTBS have much more group utility buffs then the Chosen and better abilities overall.The Bright Wizard still outshines the Sorceror and the Shadow Warrior has excellent range damage also. The Rune Priest is most likely the best healer in the game and the hardest to kill. Also take into consideration that Order's knockbacks are so far superior to Destruction its not even funny. If these are not enough reasons along that made you join Order then roll on my server (Ostermark). Order out numbers us so bad anymore, its comical.

How anyone could compare a knockback to a disable is simply beyond belief. But you're derailing the thread. This is about Baneshield and how it's overpowered in it's current form.

[ahbab]

Ok , again repeat after me : BANE SHIELD DOES NOT STACK !

Goddamn wownerfcrybabies.

[Omin]

Ok , again repeat after me : BANE SHIELD DOES NOT STACK !

Goddamn wownerfcrybabies.

Thank you for clarifing, i guess all the SS are photoshopped

[Noran]

Huoh.

1k damage every 2-3 seconds is alot ? if your healers cant heal through that then I suggest that you start to get more healers and specially those that can AoE heal nicely.

I think I could heal more in t3 with my own DoK. Specially considering that WP is the better healer compared to DoK.

[Karandor]

Huoh.

1k damage every 2-3 seconds is alot ? if your healers cant heal through that then I suggest that you start to get more healers and specially those that can AoE heal nicely.

I think I could heal more in t3 with my own DoK. Specially considering that WP is the better healer compared to DoK.

It is when you have to deal with that damage AS WELL AS all the AE damage destro can do to you without fear of killing themselves.


This tactic combo for baneshield kills ANY chance order has at fortress fights, period. If the lag, AE disorents and AE disables weren't enough, baneshield + it's 2 tactics makes it comepletely impossible to AE down the tank line even with superior numbers.

We got to the destro fortress yesterday and all the AE damage classes were getting smoked by baneshield. We had double the numbers destro did and had TONS of AE damage classes. We couldn't do anything. It was a good 45 minutes spent at the bottom of the stairs. Whenever tanks rushed we got AE disable (which with lag last way to goddamn long) and killed. The BWs and Engs were killing themselves on baneshield more than anything.

Next time we do it we'll have to get every class that can to spec into a 2400 or 1800 ranged T4 morale to do it in order to kill the tank wall. Only way it can be done as of now.

[Noran]

It is when you have to deal with that damage AS WELL AS all the AE damage destro can do to you without fear of killing themselves.


This tactic combo for baneshield kills ANY chance order has at fortress fights, period. If the lag, AE disorents and AE disables weren't enough, baneshield + it's 2 tactics makes it comepletely impossible to AE down the tank line even with superior numbers.

We got to the destro fortress yesterday and all the AE damage classes were getting smoked by baneshield. We had double the numbers destro did and had TONS of AE damage classes. We couldn't do anything. It was a good 45 minutes spent at the bottom of the stairs. Whenever tanks rushed we got AE disable (which with lag last way to goddamn long) and killed. The BWs and Engs were killing themselves on baneshield more than anything.

Next time we do it we'll have to get every class that can to spec into a 2400 or 1800 ranged T4 morale to do it in order to kill the tank wall. Only way it can be done as of now.

Ok, this is going to be bit offensive, since you really make things way too hard.

AoE heals go nicely through walls, roofs and do affect even if my groups ppls are inside the range but outside LOS. And We dont have to stand on front lines at all to heal as possible we can because we have em nice chalices and books, thats for DoK's and WP's. There is perfect places on keeps and forts where the healers can hide and be outside view range aka outside PoS or RoF.

It just takes some time to find these places and how work along them. And if your WP's are charging on the front line, its no wonder why they cant heal for anything. IT's just that simple.

As it comes down to BS+DS stacking ill say it how it seems to work on every screenshot provided here. As the engineer there earlier provided the screenshot ill loan those.

1) he hits 8 or 9 ppls are gets hit back exactly the same amount times. If DS would be stacking he would be hit 8-9 times from all 3 Chosen's. And that isnt the case here.
DS+BS damage guards all ally inside the range, and it really doesnt matter who's BS+DS deals the damage because it doesnt hit you back more times that you hitted the others.

2) Why can DS+BS sometimes hits back 2 times even target hitted only once. This comes from non chosen guarding someone inside the DS effect, aka then one dealed damage to 2 ppls inside BS+DS effect and so gets 2 spanks from it.

3)Non Brained AoE nuke button mashing is just darn stupid to be honest, looking around and looking at your own hp bar does help alot, not just carelesly nuke until you die. Simply toss one AoE bombin this case and see what happens? and stacking em AoE healers that know how to work helps even more.

4) Reserved for content, im just getting sick and tired to this.

----
Ill derail myself abit since ppls on earlier pages seemingly didnt catch the KotBS OYG guard loop thingie.

kotbs1 guards kotbs2,kotbs2 guards kotbs3,kotbs3 guard kotbs4,4 guards 5 and 5 gaurds 6 and 6 guards 1. Aka the Guard Loop that got really popular under 2 weeks after release.

Now I go and poke these 6 kotbs that are pushing the lines as group and happen to use my DoK's frontal AoE attack and it hits em all. Every KotBS aura hits me 6 times back resulting 36 times 115 damage (was it 115?) aka resulting quite alot damage to myself and this damage was from single Melee based attack.

Now scenario 2 where mass guard with 5 kotbs and healer. and all kotbs guards the Healer. One melee attack skill or autoattack fires back 10 times 115? unmigitable damage and as fast WE/Mara/dok(dual wielding) can toss em attacks it was literally suicide.

So when trying to compare OYG prenerf and Chosen DS the difference is infact
enourmous.

----

Does Chosen DS with tactics need a fix? now thats a hard question, because it isnt nearly as damaging you ppls say or simply you lack decent healers that prehot AoE's, even they arent in the same group. This isnt rocket science after all.

But it seems that basic non Vent/TS using zerg cant get the healers coordinated to their ful volume and that so called lagg works both ways, but be lil harsh on healers, but neither as DoK or AM havent found it enough bad to completely ruin my healing.

[LexiSkullthrone]

I honestly think it is a powerful ability but the way they should change it is make it still do what its doing now but put it on say... a 5-6 min timer or perhaps 8-10 min if people think its that extreme so that it will only be used in dire need. where as KoTBS will have a similar ability (only it doesn't effect groupmates) on a 15 second cooldown with a tactic,

[Karandor]

Ok, this is going to be bit offensive, since you really make things way too hard.

AoE heals go nicely through walls, roofs and do affect even if my groups ppls are inside the range but outside LOS. And We dont have to stand on front lines at all to heal as possible we can because we have em nice chalices and books, thats for DoK's and WP's. There is perfect places on keeps and forts where the healers can hide and be outside view range aka outside PoS or RoF.

It just takes some time to find these places and how work along them. And if your WP's are charging on the front line, its no wonder why they cant heal for anything. IT's just that simple.

As it comes down to BS+DS stacking ill say it how it seems to work on every screenshot provided here. As the engineer there earlier provided the screenshot ill loan those.

1) he hits 8 or 9 ppls are gets hit back exactly the same amount times. If DS would be stacking he would be hit 8-9 times from all 3 Chosen's. And that isnt the case here.
DS+BS damage guards all ally inside the range, and it really doesnt matter who's BS+DS deals the damage because it doesnt hit you back more times that you hitted the others.

2) Why can DS+BS sometimes hits back 2 times even target hitted only once. This comes from non chosen guarding someone inside the DS effect, aka then one dealed damage to 2 ppls inside BS+DS effect and so gets 2 spanks from it.

3)Non Brained AoE nuke button mashing is just darn stupid to be honest, looking around and looking at your own hp bar does help alot, not just carelesly nuke until you die. Simply toss one AoE bombin this case and see what happens? and stacking em AoE healers that know how to work helps even more.

4) Reserved for content, im just getting sick and tired to this.

----
Ill derail myself abit since ppls on earlier pages seemingly didnt catch the KotBS OYG guard loop thingie.

kotbs1 guards kotbs2,kotbs2 guards kotbs3,kotbs3 guard kotbs4,4 guards 5 and 5 gaurds 1. Aka the Guard Loop that got really popular under 2 weeks after release.

Now I go and poke these 6 kotbs that are pushing the lines as group and happen to use my DoK's frontal AoE attack and it hits em all. Every KotBS aura hits me 6 times back resulting 36 times 115 damage (was it 115?) aka resulting quite alot damage to myself and this damage was from single Melee based attack.

Now scenario 2 where mass guard with 5 kotbs and healer. and all kotbs guards the Healer. One melee attack skill or autoattack fires back 10 times 115? unmigitable damage and as fast WE/Mara/dok(dual wielding) can toss em attacks it was literally suicide.

So when trying to compare OYG prenerf and Chosen DS the difference is infact
enourmous.

----

Does Chosen DS with tactics need a fix? now thats a hard question, because it isnt nearly as damaging you ppls say or simply you lack decent healers that prehot AoE's, even they arent in the same group. This isnt rocket science after all.

But it seems that basic non Vent/TS using zerg cant get the healers coordinated to their ful volume and that so called lagg works both ways, but be lil harsh on healers, but neither as DoK or AM havent found it enough bad to completely ruin my healing.

You don't get it. Our DPS needs to be in LOS to do DPS. They take both the baneshield damage and the destro AE damage. Group healing will not heal through this unless they hold back on thier DPS significantly = no chance at killing tank wall. A BW will take 1k reflected damage (roughly) for every tick of an AE. This is on top of the 700 damage he takes for backlash ON TOP of any AE damage being thrown down by SH, Magus and Sorcs, who have no fear of killing themselves.

I'm not talking about BS stacking I'm saying that with tactics the ability is just plain stupid when order has NOTHING to counter it. It doesn't stack but that doesn't mean it's balanced. When you use an AE agaist OYG you get hit by 1 OYG hit. 115 damage, same as if you only hit 1 guy and it can only happen every 2 seconds.

Please justify why with dire shielding baneshield should be allowed to hit someone 9 times (the max targets an AE can hit). There is no reason. Who cares if it requires 2 tactics to become godly. In a fortress siege those 2 tactics are the most powerful tactics in the game. OYG was nuts before, I agree, but now it is useless.

This is ON TOP of the AE KD and AE disorient and AE morale disable issue which makes this just that much less possible. Especially with lag involved.

This is not about healing through damage, it's about a blatant imbalance of realms. In scenarios (which is what everything seems to be balanced around) order is just fine. AE disorients and KDs are annoying but so are our knockbacks. It is in huge fights where destro shows they are just better equipped.

The CC in this game isn't that bad IMO until you get large numbers where stuff is just spammed. That's when order has to find a bridge to have any chance of holding out.

[Noran]

You don't get it. Our DPS needs to be in LOS to do DPS. They take both the baneshield damage and the destro AE damage. Group healing will not heal through this unless they hold back on thier DPS significantly = no chance at killing tank wall. A BW will take 1k reflected damage (roughly) for every tick of an AE. This is on top of the 700 damage he takes for backlash ON TOP of any AE damage being thrown down by SH, Magus and Sorcs, who have no fear of killing themselves.

By all means I do get the general point that BS is powerfull, but its far from something unhealable. My post was talking about the healing side and how it is possible to avoid most em Knockbacks,Knockdowns, Disorientates as a Healer. And I do play the both sides T4 level and dare to say that I know what im talking about.

As said BW tossing his/hers RoF mindlessly is player based problem mostly the BW and the healers. When 2 WP's can dish out more healing than DS and Backlash with ease and counter part of the Destro's own AoEing, but hense forth both sides have 3 types of healers that can avoid all the mess comes down on stairs. Well almost all, but atleast 80%.

And killing the tankwall with AoE is one tactic to use, but breaking it down / disparting it might and atleast works better on my view. (atleast on my server IB/SM, continous KB/KDing breaks the wall, but doesnt kill it.. and then it just matter of good group cordination how to move em healers from downstairs to up)

Please justify why with dire shielding baneshield should be allowed to hit someone 9 times (the max targets an AE can hit). There is no reason. Who cares if it requires 2 tactics to become godly. In a fortress siege those 2 tactics are the most powerful tactics in the game. OYG was nuts before, I agree, but now it is useless.DS+BS can be powerfull, but as mentioned its migitable and with some decent 600-1k spirit res, I can say that its nothing but a annoying side effect.
But why it was created on the first part... aaaaa I can only assume that Dev's created it to counter Order's ranged AoE's, but they didnt include all the spells/skills that was inteded and left DS+BS as it is.
And im not even trying to justify it, im just trying give 'somewhat intelligent' response to all these posts that morelss biased by false info and hatred. And I just happened to quote you because you didnt write 'crap' just a nice post.

This is ON TOP of the AE KD and AE disorient and AE morale disable issue which makes this just that much less possible. Especially with lag involved.

This is not about healing through damage, it's about a blatant imbalance of realms. In scenarios (which is what everything seems to be balanced around) order is just fine. AE disorients and KDs are annoying but so are our knockbacks. It is in huge fights where destro shows they are just better equipped.

The CC in this game isn't that bad IMO until you get large numbers where stuff is just spammed. That's when order has to find a bridge to have any chance of holding out.AoE KD/KB/Disso's are indeed need of somewhat checking, but As Player from EU with rather high t4 population on both server I play, I dare to say that Lag isnt the reason why order gets bounded down.

Server population, now we are at heart of the problem. So while I dont offer solutions to this matter, but turning Server population into "DS+BS is OP" argument aint a way to go at it.
It surely sucks for both sides to be the lesser side or have server that lacks tanks or Decent healers that would provide decent power base to push/heal through anything.

aka DS+BS is in no way the reason When some servers order cant take fort's, its pretty darn nuisance but the real reason is population balance and the amount of ppls that join these Fort assaults or defences.

[Randell44]

So how much does bane shield do if you have good spirit resists? Because I remember BW's complaining before the nerf to them that all you had to do was stack resists against them I would assume they have already tried the same route. BW's got nerfs because they did far too much even after the resists, largely due to unmitigated critting. So, how much does BS do after resists if you stack?


Also the problem with OYG is this was an essentially permanent skill you could then twist with another beneficial aura and it people essentially free out of the box. Even with 1 knight using this aura it was possible to hit someone 3-5 times in a second and take back a large amount of damage without someone doing anything or even getting a tactic for it. It was strong enough that even completely unmastered it could be used to great effect. Then you add in the stacking and it got insane.

BS, for the unique benefits, still takes 2 tactics and is up only a fraction of the time. The stacking of it is highly debatable as well. Resists are something I haven't seen people list how much it can be mitigated exactly. If for some reason it was nerfed I would expect it to receive concessions in return. Such as being always up and possibly getting a range increase in return for lesser damage. Which would make it more on par with the current iteration of OYG. If you nerfed it without concessions enough to make people stop whining then the skill would essentially be ignored by both sides.

[Noran]

So how much does bane shield do if you have good spirit resists? Because I remember BW's complaining before the nerf to them that all you had to do was stack resists against them I would assume they have already tried the same route. BW's got nerfs because they did far too much even after the resists, largely due to unmitigated critting. So, how much does BS do after resists if you stack?
--snip--

Im going little on memory numbers arent 100% accurate but they will maxed out be 20points off eitherway.

- Discordant Fluctuation (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8327) is unmitigatable damage that cannot crit. 112 points of damage.

- Bane Shield. (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8337) is 150 mitigateable with spirit resist. It is also affected by the Chosen's current strength, and has a chance to crit based on the Chosen's melee crit chance. It cannot be blocked, disrupted, or parried (dodge is right out). A Chosen must not block or otherwise negate the attack for Bane Shield to deal damage.

So 112 damage taken is dead sure, But one can migitate Bane shield's damage by alot. I think I migitated some roughly 55% around 550spirit res.***
So just taking them tooltips I would have taken aprox 187 points of damage from single ping, and I used AoE ability I would have taken 1496 points of damage.

(i loaned bit from here http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3131271&postcount=39)

***Though Bane shield seems get dimished damage from Thoughness as well, so numbers move alot even more. Because I cant remember out of my head how much thoughness over 400 my AM has.


argh thats for spells =) but for engi attacks it would be like 75 on single attack and 600 for full AoE granade.

[Clemency]

So, when OyG could potentially insta-gib a WE, things were great. Now that ranged AoE spam has a counter, NERFNERFNERFnerf it.

The only way a WE could somehow kill herself would be if she managed to hit 70-80 times in a split second, and everybody she hit had OYG protecting them.

Sorry, just not possible. This ridiculous fabrication (much like the claims that a WE could somehow do 37k damage back to herself on OYG alone) needs to go the way of the dodo.

[Noran]

The only way a WE could somehow kill herself would be if she managed to hit 70-80 times in a split second, and everybody she hit had OYG protecting them.

Sorry, just not possible. This ridiculous fabrication (much like the claims that a WE could somehow do 37k damage back to herself on OYG alone) needs to go the way of the dodo.

Quoting myself:

Ill derail myself abit since ppls on earlier pages seemingly didnt catch the KotBS OYG guard loop thingie. Prenerf time !!!!

kotbs1 guards kotbs2,kotbs2 guards kotbs3,kotbs3 guard kotbs4,4 guards 5 and 5 gaurds 6 and 6 guards 1. Aka the Guard Loop that got really popular under 2 weeks after release.

Now I go and poke these 6 kotbs that are pushing the lines as group and happen to use my DoK's frontal AoE attack and it hits em all. Every KotBS aura hits me 6 times back resulting 36 times 115 damage (was it 115?) aka resulting quite alot damage to myself and this damage was from single Melee based attack.

Now scenario 2 where mass guard with 5 kotbs and healer. and all kotbs guards the Healer. One melee attack skill or autoattack fires back 10 times 115? unmigitable damage and as fast WE/Mara/dok(dual wielding) can toss em attacks it was literally suicide.

EDIT: hitting the healer on scene 2

[Clemency]

Quoting myself:

Ill derail myself abit since ppls on earlier pages seemingly didnt catch the KotBS OYG guard loop thingie. Prenerf time !!!!

kotbs1 guards kotbs2,kotbs2 guards kotbs3,kotbs3 guard kotbs4,4 guards 5 and 5 gaurds 6 and 6 guards 1. Aka the Guard Loop that got really popular under 2 weeks after release.

Now I go and poke these 6 kotbs that are pushing the lines as group and happen to use my DoK's frontal AoE attack and it hits em all. Every KotBS aura hits me 6 times back resulting 36 times 115 damage (was it 115?) aka resulting quite alot damage to myself and this damage was from single Melee based attack.

Here are the fundamental flaws with your scenario:

1) You're assuming every single knight is 40th level, with 15 points in vigilance. At 40th/15, it does 115 per retaliation, yes.
2) Your math is way off. Your AE attack will hit all 6. That means knight #1's OYG will lash back at you 6 times. The guard chain would only allow each other knight's OYG to hit you ONCE EACH, due to the fact that they were taking damage based on their guard. So #1 guarding #2 = #1's aura lashing back at you once. #2 guarding #3 = #2's aura lashing out at you once. Etc, etc. So ultimately, you would be hit TWELVE times, not thirty six.

Still a lot of damage, but only a third of what you postulate, unless for some ridiculous reason either a) Mythic has guard affected by guard affected by guard affected by guard (in that any damage is split countless times as it volleys back and forth between guards), in which case if you hit so many as TWO tanks with guard on each other, you'd get lashed back against like 30 times. But I don't think even Mythic could break guard THAT badly, or b) Mythic allowed every knight's full OYG aura to stack on everyone around them based solely on the fact that they were guarding someone.

Both of those would be bugs that should be fixed, if they existed.

Now scenario 2 where mass guard with 5 kotbs and healer. and all kotbs guards the Healer. One melee attack skill or autoattack fires back 10 times 115? unmigitable damage and as fast WE/Mara/dok(dual wielding) can toss em attacks it was literally suicide.Again, no. It would fire back 6 times. Once for the healer themselves being hit triggering the OYG aura from one of the knights. Then 5 other times from the guard damage triggering the other knights' OYG auras. Six times, not ten.

There were numerous VERY simple fixes they could have done for OYG. Make guard damage not proc OYG, for instance. That would close that loophole right there. Not have it stack at all (which it shouldn't have done anyway). There's another loophole closed. Suddenly, it's not so "overpowered" anymore.

The problem is that instead of fixing the loophole (the guard chain thing), Mythic nerfed the ability into the dirt. Now, a dual wielder gets hit maybe one time per 4-5 attacks they gets off. Basically taking trivial damage in retaliation.

But oh well. Enough thread derailing. This is about Bane Shield. But I simply had to point that out.

[Noran]

Here are the fundamental flaws with your scenario:

1) You're assuming every single knight is 40th level, with 15 points in vigilance. At 40th/15, it does 115 per retaliation, yes.
2) Your math is way off. Your AE attack will hit all 6. That means knight #1's OYG will lash back at you 6 times. The guard chain would only allow each other knight's OYG to hit you ONCE EACH, due to the fact that they were taking damage based on their guard. So #1 guarding #2 = #1's aura lashing back at you once. #2 guarding #3 = #2's aura lashing out at you once. Etc, etc. So ultimately, you would be hit TWELVE times, not thirty six.

Still a lot of damage, but only a third of what you postulate, unless for some ridiculous reason either a) Mythic has guard affected by guard affected by guard affected by guard (in that any damage is split countless times as it volleys back and forth between guards), in which case if you hit so many as TWO tanks with guard on each other, you'd get lashed back against like 30 times. But I don't think even Mythic could break guard THAT badly, or b) Mythic allowed every knight's full OYG aura to stack on everyone around them based solely on the fact that they were guarding someone.

Both of those would be bugs that should be fixed, if they existed.

Again, no. It would fire back 6 times. Once for the healer themselves being hit triggering the OYG aura from one of the knights. Then 5 other times from the guard damage triggering the other knights' OYG auras. Six times, not ten.

There were numerous VERY simple fixes they could have done for OYG. Make guard damage not proc OYG, for instance. That would close that loophole right there. Not have it stack at all (which it shouldn't have done anyway). There's another loophole closed. Suddenly, it's not so "overpowered" anymore.

The problem is that instead of fixing the loophole (the guard chain thing), Mythic nerfed the ability into the dirt. Now, a dual wielder gets hit maybe one time per 4-5 attacks they gets off. Basically taking trivial damage in retaliation.

But oh well. Enough thread derailing. This is about Bane Shield. But I simply had to point that out.

TSIISUS f*** christ I think I said PRE-NERF. Learn darn read if nothing else. if you havent been on the other side and have to deal with these thingies then I would simply shut up.

Today this isnt the case anymore. its fixed and on the hard hand.

[Noran]

Im going to be sorry, even saying this. (because I bet 2 banana's that Mod will delete it)

But you mate are a perfect example from person that sees what he/she wants and lets the rest just go by. You can cheack all the post I have done on these forums and check what I have said. There aint even slightest bit of whining nor griefing.

I hope and wish that ppls on these forums would actually think 3-4 times before responding so we would actually avoid all the drama like this post is going to be.

Im just darn upset that ppls cant have clear view on matter s at hand.

[Randell44]

Im going little on memory numbers arent 100% accurate but they will maxed out be 20points off eitherway.

- Discordant Fluctuation (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8327) is unmitigatable damage that cannot crit. 112 points of damage.

- Bane Shield. (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8337) is 150 mitigateable with spirit resist. It is also affected by the Chosen's current strength, and has a chance to crit based on the Chosen's melee crit chance. It cannot be blocked, disrupted, or parried (dodge is right out). A Chosen must not block or otherwise negate the attack for Bane Shield to deal damage.

So 112 damage taken is dead sure, But one can migitate Bane shield's damage by alot. I think I migitated some roughly 55% around 550spirit res.***
So just taking them tooltips I would have taken aprox 187 points of damage from single ping, and I used AoE ability I would have taken 1496 points of damage.

(i loaned bit from here http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3131271&postcount=39)

***Though Bane shield seems get dimished damage from Thoughness as well, so numbers move alot even more. Because I cant remember out of my head how much thoughness over 400 my AM has.


argh thats for spells =) but for engi attacks it would be like 75 on single attack and 600 for full AoE granade.

That doesn't sound too bad. Since your supposed to have 6K+ hp as a caster, you'll get hit for less if there is a block or disrupt too. Also, the aura won't be hitting you if you hit people not in a chosen's group. Carry some spirit resist pots to stack on top of that, and have a WP in group with you. You still won't be able to sling out AOE's willy nilly, but should you really be able to? Any tanks using guard and hold the line would just be even more helpful. Really seems like a balanced group pays off here.

Ironically it sounds to me like the bulk of the damage is coming from the aura and not bane shield if your properly set up.

The only way a WE could somehow kill herself would be if she managed to hit 70-80 times in a split second, and everybody she hit had OYG protecting them.

Claims like this are the result of the guard loop. Lets just say you get hit with 3 OYG at once. You open with your opener, and start attacking. So you have the opener that triggers it, your auto attacks trigger it, your abilities trigger it, your kisses trigger it, and lord help you if you use a DOT.

Lets say you used 9406 so the worst that hurts you is once every 1.5 seconds. Lets say auto attack hits every 1.5 seconds. Your abilities are a mix of multi-hit and single hit. So thats 1.5 attacks every 1.5 seconds. We are up to 3.5 attackes every 1.5 seconds so lets assume you proc 2 kisses as that's likely.

So adding 2 kisses and dropping the .5 attack we have 5 attacks every GCD (1.5 seconds.) OYG doing 115 if you go up the tree and 3 OYG hitting you for each attack. That's 115 X 3 = 345 per attack. 345 X 5 attacks = 1725 damage done to you in one round of attacks that cannot be stopped or mitigated. Taking 1.5 seconds. Meaning with 3 OYG procing a WE could kill herself in 6-7.5 seconds from OYG alone. That's with only 3 OYG hitting you at once.

[Stevefin]

How The **** did this turn into a pre/post OYG nerf when WE are supposed to talk/rant about a BROKEN tank with a BROKEN ability

had to be said

[Ashonic]

How The **** did this turn into a pre/post OYG nerf when WE are supposed to talk/rant about a BROKEN tank with a BROKEN ability

had to be said


agreed. people need to stop comparing OYG and BS.

in deed we chosen are a broken tank, because we are the worst tank class, with possibly the worst abilitys of our archtype.
as to the ability being broken, i think most people arent sure whats broken with it.


Originally Posted by Clemency http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/images/WHA/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3159525#post3159525)
The only way a WE could somehow kill herself would be if she managed to hit 70-80 times in a split second, and everybody she hit had OYG protecting them.

Sorry, just not possible. This ridiculous fabrication (much like the claims that a WE could somehow do 37k damage back to herself on OYG alone) needs to go the way of the dodo.



Agreed, it should go the way of the Dodo, as should the ridiculous fabrication that BW and Engi's somehow do 100000 damge per AoE tick against BS

[Menethos]

KotBS still have shield of the sun, which is essentially the same thing.

No! its not esiantially the same thing, its worse then BS, its a blessing it can be removed, doesnt contribute from STR, dont have any good tactics for it and most of all DOESNT protect your allies with it.

[Menethos]

Funny how order is calling for similar nerfs for a 17 second (max) ability now, when they earlier argued that OYG, a permanent lasting similar ability was fine and did not need a nerf.

How about, just not hitting the chosens for those 17 seconds? :o

So what you suggest is that every order in a keep room just stop with everything and just stand there, doing no Dmg at all, since wait: I cant aoe at all since I have to wait 17 seconds and since theres more then 1 chosen ill might have to wait all day.

What people need to do is to skip the OYG discussion right now, its sucks bigtime and noone is using it anymore. What mythic did was make the most lazy nerf in game history, instead of fixing it they nerfed it to bits. /rant off

Simply:

1. Dont make the ability stack or give the same tactics to Knights.

2. Nerf it and make it on par with the same tactics that Knights have.

[Kansai]

This ability is BROKEN Period. And it stacks making keep defence imposible. Think its fun beeing hit by 4-5 Bane shields dying before your RoF cycle even runs out?

Do not make it Stack not even the Knight one its not a good fix.

[CrimsonAngel]

How about the Chosen get a mirror of our OyG ability and we remove BS.

After all if OyG is SOOOO overpowerd and BS so underpowered they would love that right.