Black Guard MT

[Sleipnir]

Ok so im pretty much new to the forums and i do know this is a PvP (RvR) based game, but i have an uncanny hunch that at this point both the devs and the people tracking the game underesitmate the Black Guard as a Main Tank.

If ive read correctly the mechanic of the BG is hating their enemy and the majority of the hate comes from the foe attacking the BG. Though he is designed to be offensive the mechanic alone kind of directs the class to trying the have all the aggro on mobs. Once again yes i know this is a PvP based games but the bosses in cities etc will have to be efficiently tanked.

The chosen as ive read (too lazy to cite anything) seems to be a twisting class and tho heavily defenive are not used to their full potential because city bosses are almost garenteed to have an interupt (tho can be countered by having 2 chosen)

Black Orcs would seem the most likely tanks to be honest all im saying is that i feel the Black Guard will be grossely underestimated by the community as a preferred main tank.

Just to clarify (i guess) i love PvE yet PvP interests me as well, i guess what im openning up for discussion is if you all think the community would really accept a Black Guard fully spec'ing defense or if s/he (me) would just primarily get laughed at and ignorred.

[Engelfaust]

I don't think this community thinks any less of the black guard as a main tank, while the same class between different races seem vastly different, they all follow the same general rules or guidelines for survivability and aiding their groups. The differences are somewhat apparent between these tanks in pve, but in pvp they set themselves apart, especially with the addition of all these masteries.

But I'm really not sure what you're getting at with your post, you want to know if you'd be of lesser value in pvp for speccing for defense, is what I think you're asking. An answer to that would be no, a defensive tank is of course needed in pvp, everyone knows it.

[Adendan]

The problem I can see with the Black Guard is in PvP, tbh.

Do I let him do his dmg against my groupmates or do I try to kill a tank class that will start hitting even harder after I start attacking him?

Seems to me like it might be a good idea to leave the Black Guard til last .. but we'll see how the mechanic works first.

[Dastion]

I seriously doubt that auras will be interruptable. A knockdown may prevent you from swapping for a few secs, but the one you have up will likely stay up.

As for the Blackguard making a good MT for keep lords and city bosses.. yes, you are probably right, their mechanic directly assists in this. Though, an Ironbreaker will likely do just as well since his allies are definitely going to be taking some hits too, and the Swordmaster will do well because he will have an enemy who isn't going to be jumping all over the place or running away (well, unless the script calls for it). So he can just keep on doing chain after c hain of blade dances.

[Nerak]

I seriously doubt that auras will be interruptable. A knockdown may prevent you from swapping for a few secs, but the one you have up will likely stay up.

As for the Blackguard making a good MT for keep lords and city bosses.. yes, you are probably right, their mechanic directly assists in this. Though, an Ironbreaker will likely do just as well since his allies are definitely going to be taking some hits too, and the Swordmaster will do well because he will have an enemy who isn't going to be jumping all over the place or running away (well, unless the script calls for it). So he can just keep on doing chain after c hain of blade dances.

Yeah, I agree that the hatred mechanic diretly assists in helping a Black Guard keep threat. Just as long as Mythic makes bossfights interesting and not a gimic of ZOMG this dude hites for 9k and I have 10k health, HEALZ MEZ, then it will be all good. :)

[Dastion]

I assume there is some sort of upper limit for Hatred and Grudge, I know that most of the abilities for Ironbreaker that I saw on warresource worked around for every 25 grudge you have, ect. I also noticed many abilities for the Ironbreaker which built Grudge, mostly these were defensive type attacks (Shield Swipe, ect.) Assuming that there is an upper limit to grudge/hatred, then the difference becomes a rather moot point since the Ironbreaker will eventually gain full grudge, albeit slower than the Black Guard but likely not much slower since it is safe to assume that these boss fights will be dangerous to the entire encounter (and therefore damage the IB's teammates), and build up Grudge.

The only tank careers I'm really worried about are the KoTBS and Chosen, I never was a fan of any of the twisting classes in DAoC (Warden, Paladin, Bard) and I'm hoping that their auras are powerful enough to make up for their lack of other mechanics like combos and a build-up bar.

[logicalmayhem]

the simple fact that a black guard becomes more dangerous when you hit them makes them the strongest MT of any race

[Nerak]

the simple fact that a black guard becomes more dangerous when you hit them makes them the strongest MT of any race

I'm content with that. :)

But I am sure the Chosen and Black Orc will have their strengths as well for PvE-related encounters. To elevate one class over the other two on each side would be a tad unfair.

[Xilbalba]

I'm thinking in pve at least it all comes down to how much aggro can be generated. If twisting helps aggro generation a lot (Idoubt it) then the Chosen won't be gimped and the black guard might end up being the best choice for mt depending on the dmg ceiling. Otherwise atm it looks like the BO might become the best choice for a pve mt like the IB for order.

Course this is all made from a point of ignorance since no one knows the mechnics yet. :cool:

[Nerak]

I'm thinking in pve at least it all comes down to how much aggro can be generated. If twisting helps aggro generation a lot (Idoubt it) then the Chosen won't be gimped and the black guard might end up being the best choice for mt depending on the dmg ceiling. Otherwise atm it looks like the BO might become the best choice for a pve mt like the IB for order.

Course this is all made from a point of ignorance since no one knows the mechnics yet. :cool:

How do you figure a Black Orc would be better than a Black Guard?

I'm just curious.

The pure fact that the growing damage a Black Guard can do as they take more damage makes them quite beastly with aggro-generation.

[Zeke]

I think the Black Guard is the best destruction tank because of the rage in PvE but Black Orc might take the lead in PvP because of the knockdowns and stuns....Black Guard and Black Orc working together spells doom for thier victims.:mrgreen:

[Nosfet]

I do not see Black Guards as defensive tanks. While they will probably do fine as a MT, to me they will be more suited for DPS Tanks. We can't be sure until we see a list of abilities the BG will have. But, right now, for my money, Black Orc look to be the MT for Destruction.

[Lord Tareq]

Hopefully all tanks have equal options to spec for being an equally effective main-tank. Finding out after enthousiasticly rolling a Black Guard that almost every group prefers a Black Orc or Chosen will be displeasing to say the least.

[Aeious]

I agree w/ Tareq. it would suck if groups were like "oh that BG has a shield ... lets look for someone else"

It seems tho in pve that the mechanic kind of gimps the BG as a dps practitioner (if Sleip is right and the majority of hate comes from the BG getting attacked) on boss fights due to the fact he will most likely not be getting hit as much as if he were the MT but who really knows at this point :(. BGs will probably be great OTs tho.

[Xilbalba]

How do you figure a Black Orc would be better than a Black Guard?

I'm just curious.

The pure fact that the growing damage a Black Guard can do as they take more damage makes them quite beastly with aggro-generation.

Well pure speculation really, and tbh no one really knows how they'll work the hatred in pve yet but here's how my thought process on this matter goes.

Black Guard - most people are looking at this to be dps oriented.
Chosen - more Debuff oriented.
Black Orc - More cc abilities oriented.

Now usually you can't have your cake and eat it too, meaning while the BG may do more dmg it dosen't mean that he'll be the best at aggro generation of the three. Mythic might solve this problem and make all three equal at tanking in pve but I dunno it seems doubtful to me.

Aside from that, who would you say is a better MT the giant orc meatshield or the small wiry elf with a polearm (WYSIWYG and all that). :p

Edit: One thing that does bug me though is how hatred would work in pve if the BG isn't the MT. He'd really be gimped most the time and you would be better off taking a dps class over him. That does seem a point in his favor for MT.

[Cruniac]

I will rest my case in this matter until we get hard facts to rely on...that is: numbers and abilities on paper/screen.

Until then I consider each and everyone of the tank classes equal when speaking of PVE maintanking.

Its hard and boring to speculate about things noone has any clue about whatsoever...:roll:

[Xilbalba]

I will rest my case in this matter until we get hard facts to rely on...that is: numbers and abilities on paper/screen.

Until then I consider each and everyone of the tank classes equal when speaking of PVE maintanking.

Its hard and boring to speculate about things noone has any clue about whatsoever...:roll:

Yep no doubt, just wish they would be a little more generous with the info since Mythic pushed back the release date again. But I guess it's all part of some evil plot to drive players into a forthing mass of crazy before launch.

[Cruniac]

Yep no doubt, just wish they would be a little more generous with the info since Mythic pushed back the release date again. But I guess it's all part of some evil plot to drive players into a forthing mass of crazy before launch.

Yes...why is it that the Dark Elves only have Witch Elves explained more closely on www.warhammeronline.com (http://www.warhammeronline.com) and all others have all classes explained...except High Elves who also only got 2 revealed but both explained!

Black Guards have been revealed for a long time now without any explanation whatsoever!! :x

[Vankador]

I think that all three tanks will have their perks in terms of MTing.

The Chosen will probably have the best defense/HP of the three and use debuffs as a way to increase their aggro while at the same time reducing their target's damage.

The Black Orcs will probably have the 2nd best defense/HP, they'll use CC's such as knockdowns to gain aggro while at the same time causing their targets to do less damage by keeping them on their backs.

The Black Guard will probably have the least defense/HP of the three but will make it up by having the most DPS and probably best aggro generation. Also, they'll become more powerful the more they're hit. We don't know how much that'll affect their tanking ability, but we can be sure it'll definitely affect it positively.