Being a Black Guard

[Nerak]

So, I am going to just state here and now that I expect my kills to death ratio to be pretty bad. Why? Because I plan on playing my Black Guard as they are meant to be played. I will confront the enemy directly. I won't pussyfoot around them like a Witch Elf, I won't stand in the back and hope not to get hit like our magic-users. I will meet the enemy head on, even if I alone have to take on an army.

Retreat? That's a cowards word and the Black Guard of Naggaroth do not retreat, we stand and fight even if it means certain death.

[Dukha]

Reminds me of a saying I once heard connected with the warrior class in WoW.

"I am not afraid to charge in and die...repeatedly!"

Edit: I always thought this line exemplifies what it means to play a warrior class :cool:

[Nerak]

Reminds me of a saying I once heard connected with the warrior class in WoW.

"I am not afraid to charge in and die...repeatedly!"

Well, if you play the Black Guard as it's meant to be played, you just never retreat. In the army book it clearly states that they'd rather die than give ground to the enemy.

[Dukha]

Thats among the reasons why I'm atracted to the black guard ;) I want to be in the thick of things, first one in last one out sort of style. And playing a tank class thats viable in PvP? Oh man, can it get any better?? :cool:

As to not retreating? heck, I don't retreat with my warrior now and I don't expect to change my ways hehe.

[Nerak]

Exactly. :) I would stand there til the end to make sure healers or casters were able to get away, also try to take down as many as I can until I met my end.

[Zunjin]

I will simply be in the frontline as a blackguard becouse I hate you, all of you! Forever!
Also, witch elves are supposed to be scary :)

[Vernal]

Exactly. :) I would stand there til the end to make sure healers or casters were able to get away, also try to take down as many as I can until I met my end.

I'm guessing you like to RP. Anyway if I see a full group comming and I'm all alone, I'm GTFO quick.

[Nerak]

I'm guessing you like to RP. Anyway if I see a full group comming and I'm all alone, I'm GTFO quick.

Then you sir, do not understand what it means to be one of the Black Guard.

[Dyst]

I agree with Nerak, never retreat! Such is the way only of High elves and their weakling allies.

[Nerak]

Either 2 things happen in the situation that was described:

1) All 5 people can suck and you single-handidly defeat them earning much renown and honor for you, your guild, the Druchii and Malekith...

2) Or you get slaughteed but you at least show that you have a pair and are not some weakling Orderling. I am thinking a Black Orc would charge into the thick of things as well, not sure about a Chosen.

[Lord Tareq]

Hehe, there is a difference between never retreating from battle, and never evading a possible hopeless battle. The latter is very much against how elves work, even Black Guard.

Example, When defending an objective and you get swarmed by a horde of enemies as a Black Guard you stand your ground. Same when your climbing a hill and get jumped on by an enemy group, you stand and fight.
However when taking a morning stroll in a forest and seeing an large enemy group heading for you, its fine to subtly turn around and evade direct conflict until you have found more favorable odds.;)

[Kellaris]

Either 2 things happen in the situation that was described:

1) All 5 people can suck and you single-handidly defeat them earning much renown and honor for you, your guild, the Druchii and Malekith...

2) Or you get slaughteed but you at least show that you have a pair and are not some weakling Orderling. I am thinking a Black Orc would charge into the thick of things as well, not sure about a Chosen.

Second option is much more propable. You only forget to mention that Your enemy will gain renown and loot. So You will effectively improve Your, Your guild and Malekith enemies power. Thanks to Your actions, Your enemy will be one little step closer to besiege Your capital and The Druchii have made a step back in their glorious way to capture Lothern.
You would serve Your lord better, If You would consider suicide.
Dark Elves fight to win.
When they fight to win, sacrifices have to be made sometimes. But fight with no hope to win is not exactly a DE way. No matter if You prefer MMO thinking or RP thinking. As Tareq has written, there is difference between stubborness and mindles berserk.

[Nerak]

Second option is much more propable. You only forget to mention that Your enemy will gain renown and loot. So You will effectively improve Your, Your guild and Malekith enemies power. Thanks to Your actions, Your enemy will be one little step closer to besiege Your capital and The Druchii have made a step back in their glorious way to capture Lothern.
You would serve Your lord better, If You would consider suicide.
Dark Elves fight to win.
When they fight to win, sacrifices have to be made sometimes. But fight with no hope to win is not exactly a DE way. No matter if You prefer MMO thinking or RP thinking. As Tareq has written, there is difference between stubborness and mindles berserk.

Fair points, but there are always situations where a couple of people making a suicidal charge. In WoW, I was in a RP-PvP guild that would set up feints against specific targets to try to draw a larger force away from another target so it could be hit hard. Doing this, our guild was able to wipe out Silvermoon City and Thunderbluff, and we even accomplished things such as holding the Arena and Flight Tower in Orgrimmar for like half an hour.

It all depends on what the larger objective is.

One person dying may be realm points for your enemy, but if you can slow them down so a larger force can gather and take out their army/keep/whatever... then that is a victory.

[Ibiza]

You won't be taking the Order on alone.

I'll be in the front lines as a Chaos Chosen taking on as many of them as possible.

Destruction!!!

[Nerak]

You won't be taking the Order on alone.

I'll be in the front lines as a Chaos Chosen taking on as many of them as possible.

Destruction!!!

See this is what I am talking about. Stand up and take out as many as possible!

[Zeke]

I would stand and fight! then come back with a huge WAAAAGH!!! at my back and kill em all!!!!:mrgreen:

[Dukha]

I agree with Nerak, never retreat! Such is the way only of High elves and their weakling allies.

I am torn at the moment between a high elf swordmaster and a dark elf blackguard so I'm gonna go aheaqd and say that the proposed behaviour by Nerak is one that I will vouch for despite what I ultimately chose. Because for me it's pretty much a choice between two warrior careers (sorry for the WoW reference, blame Blizzards lack of specialised heavy duty melee classes....) so if I do roll a ladi dadi fancy pansy sword master well then my destruction chums I promise you that at the very least I will make you work long and hard for my death 8) Flee just because I might be outnumbered? In the manner of the true 1337 speak: roflmao :mrgreen: Come and get it!

Black guards seems cooler then swordmasters though....

[Jg117]

Either 2 things happen in the situation that was described:

1) All 5 people can suck and you single-handidly defeat them earning much renown and honor for you, your guild, the Druchii and Malekith...

2) Or you get slaughteed but you at least show that you have a pair and are not some weakling Orderling. I am thinking a Black Orc would charge into the thick of things as well, not sure about a Chosen.

Why the heck wouldn't the chosen lmao? If not for the people playing him because a lot of noobs will be attracted to them but the character itself I can see as cursing the enemies name with his last breathe, that is, in the very unlikely situation that they will die. XD

[Jg117]

I think this quote will be sufficient to describe my feelings

"The point of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other die for his."

Thanks to the fact that enemy players can't jump through you like in other games it would be incredibly funny just to get 50 tanks decked out in heavy armor and just march in a line towards the enemy with TONS of ranged guys behind you, its the perfect strategy

[Dukha]

"The point of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other die for his."

Thats from Pratchett that is! Kudos :mrgreen:

It's a good point I have to admit...

i think another version of it is as follows:

"Facing an enemy that is prepared to die for his country is a good thing, that means you and him has the same goal in mind."

[Nerak]

Thats from Pratchett that is! Kudos :mrgreen:

It's a good point I have to admit...

i think another version of it is as follows:

"Facing an enemy that is prepared to die for his country is a good thing, that means you and him has the same goal in mind."


Actually that quote is from General George S Patton if I remember correctly.

[Dukha]

Actually that quote is from General George S Patton if I remember correctly.

Really? Well I shouldnt be suprised I guess, Mr Pratchett tends to get inspiration from a multitude of sources allthough that one sounded to me as such a discworldy thing to say I didnt even consider it may have been quouted from an actual person. Shame on me :???:

[Makolif]

With risk of upsetting all the lore wizzies there are on this forum - I will play the way I realize helps my teammates the most. Fighting 5 people alone doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't even think Black Guards in warhammer reason like that to be honest. Sure, they will probably guard their friends if there are any, and so will I do if it turns out to be worth it (as it hopefully will). But fighting alone, nah. The line bewteen bravery and stupidity is thin. I'd rather retreat 50 meters, get backup and pull forward 100 meters.:mrgreen:

[Nerak]

With risk of upsetting all the lore wizzies there are on this forum - I will play the way I realize helps my teammates the most. Fighting 5 people alone doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't even think Black Guards in warhammer reason like that to be honest. Sure, they will probably guard their friends if there are any, and so will I do if it turns out to be worth it (as it hopefully will). But fighting alone, nah. The line bewteen bravery and stupidity is thin. I'd rather retreat 50 meters, get backup and pull forward 100 meters.:mrgreen:

Black Guards suffer from stubbornness. They'd rather die than give ground to the enemy. /nods sagely.

[NoneSuch]

They're idiots then - Any sensible Fighter can look at a situation and understand when standing and dieing will help, and when it will not. Nothing wrong with sacrificng ones life for the benefit of there empire and such but needlessly dieing in a futile attempt to hold up some useless code which dosn't help anyone and isn't going to do a darn thing to hurt the enemy.

Also Black orcs aren't stupid :p They wouldn't charge against horrific odds, and even orcs would have a sense that the enemy are more powerful and they would die so fast it wouldn't be a good fight . Even death for an orc isn't a good thing, as it means no more fighting.

[Lord Tareq]

Black Guard wouldn't charge in against horrific odds. They are elves.
However should Black Guard end up in a fight, they will not retreat if you play them right, even if its an advantage to try and run away.

[Kellaris]

Black Guards suffer from stubbornness. They'd rather die than give ground to the enemy. /nods sagely.

They are stubborn, but they do not suffer from frenzy, and I belive You should distinguish this 2 effects. What You describe is Frenzy. It is Witch Elf way. Black Guard are stubborn, so they fight to death when they have orders to do so. Thy are much too expensive troops to be wasted in some berserk charges against overhelming enemy. Dark Elves don't do that.

With risk of upsetting all the lore wizzies there are on this forum - I will play the way I realize helps my teammates the most. Fighting 5 people alone doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't even think Black Guards in warhammer reason like that to be honest. Sure, they will probably guard their friends if there are any, and so will I do if it turns out to be worth it (as it hopefully will). But fighting alone, nah. The line bewteen bravery and stupidity is thin. I'd rather retreat 50 meters, get backup and pull forward 100 meters.:mrgreen:

If someone will claim that this is against the lore, he will propably think about some different lore.

[Cruniac]

Basically; BGs arent stupid...they are very stubborn though and will never retreat if commanded to do so.

All in all its down to the general of the army to take that decision...if hes an advantage at pulling the BGs back to lure the enemy into a trap or similar the BGs wont simple say "oh hell no, I cant back up cuz im stubborn!" they will ofcourse do as the general commands.

However at losing battles when the BGs side is losing and starting to break, when normal units starts to retreat from fear...a Black Guard would never flee from such a thing, he would fight until the end.

[Dyst]

I am torn at the moment between a high elf swordmaster and a dark elf blackguard so I'm gonna go aheaqd and say that the proposed behaviour by Nerak is one that I will vouch for despite what I ultimately chose. Because for me it's pretty much a choice between two warrior careers (sorry for the WoW reference, blame Blizzards lack of specialised heavy duty melee classes....) so if I do roll a ladi dadi fancy pansy sword master well then my destruction chums I promise you that at the very least I will make you work long and hard for my death 8) Flee just because I might be outnumbered? In the manner of the true 1337 speak: roflmao :mrgreen: Come and get it!

Black guards seems cooler then swordmasters though....
Hah, hope you roll a Swordmaster then. I look forward to meeting an enemy such as yourself... :)

[Dukha]

Arr, dammit I've painted myself into a kamikaze colored corner :shock:
In retrospect, the description off Black Guards being stubborn like hell and willing to stand and fight to the death only when it's appropriate do seem more of what I had in mind.... But since I at this moment in time can't really get out of my corner I'll have to settle for:

WHAAAAAGH!!!!

[Nekura]

This playstyle sounds like a good excuse to be a sh***y player. I guess we all need people to charge at shiny things, though, don't we ?

[Dukha]

Well, ya of course! I mean what would happen to all the squishies if the tanks decided to start thinking and realized that actually striving for other people to whang em over the head is kinda stoopid...

Jokes aside, I certainly don't want to propose a playstyle of mindlessly charging into whatever foe I happen to see just for the hell of it, and I doubt that was Neraks intention either. However a "first in last out" approach when applied by a tank career could be quite effective. At the start of battle the tank leads the attack thus having an esier time getting the enemy to focus on him. And should a tactical retreat be needed then the tank will be the last one to disengage in order to help the rest of the team to get away.
Sounds good on paper anyways ;)

[Nerak]

Nope. :)

Just fun to rile folks up sometimes. Though anyone who runs away from a 1v1 fight is a coward, IMO.

[Izen]

depends on balence~~ In wow when I charge a good geared warlock and my gear sux I can asure you that pressing the charge button is the last button you wil touch for that fight =p kinda useless ~~ If there was a equal fight with the warlock with me having a change with lesser gear ofc fight the he cant outskill me ! =p

[Lord Tareq]

depends on balence~~ In wow when I charge a good geared warlock and my gear sux I can asure you that pressing the charge button is the last button you wil touch for that fight =p kinda useless ~~ If there was a equal fight with the warlock with me having a change with lesser gear ofc fight the he cant outskill me ! =p

WAR is not WoW. The tank classes probably won't be as gear dependent as in WoW (and not being able to do anything as a badly geared warrior vs a warlock is a problem with the warrior mechanics, and not with the warlock ones) and won't grow exponentially in power with good gear. Gladiator geared warriors were virtually undefeatable for Warlocks.

[Izen]

Yea I know but it was just an example =P I know this game is now WOW and thats why I am here if it was WOW I would be playing WOW =P just saying that realy imbalence makes me think difrent ^^

[Dukha]

Speaking of general attitudes and not game mechanic I'm reminded of the arena fights in WoW, where some players when defeat is obvious they just leave the fight and that's something that I will NEVER do. Mainly because I don't see the point. I finish it fast but I do finish it. Same with people in battlegrounds pointing out the advantages in letting the enemy get a fast win. Makes my teeth itch :evil:

I really do hope that type of behavoiur will be less common in WAR but people will be people I guess.

[shotgunbadger]

As an RPer, I love you OP.

[Lord Tareq]

Speaking of general attitudes and not game mechanic I'm reminded of the arena fights in WoW, where some players when defeat is obvious they just leave the fight and that's something that I will NEVER do. Mainly because I don't see the point. I finish it fast but I do finish it. Same with people in battlegrounds pointing out the advantages in letting the enemy get a fast win. Makes my teeth itch :evil:

I really do hope that type of behavoiur will be less common in WAR but people will be people I guess.

Indeed, that was really annoying. However in some situations it was quite understandable. I distinctly remember how on certain days our horde PUG faced epic geared premade after epic geared premade. That gets old really fast, and after getting steamrolled by those premades many times in a row even I had adapted the mentality of "let them win fast so I can queue again and hopefully will face a PUG for a change"
However the best BG matches were those were we faced an epic decked alliance premade with our ragtag horde PUG, and then procede to actually kick their butts and win:twisted: (yes that did happen, as horde players were generally superior to alliance)
Anyway to get to my point, the mentality you describe is mainly due to poor designing, and not so much because of the players. When both sides have the idea they can win, most people will gladly fight even if it takes longer. But when its actually profitable to loose on purpose because of poor game design then yes, people will act lame.

[Dukha]

I distinctly remember how on certain days our horde PUG faced epic geared premade after epic geared premade. That gets old really fast, and after getting steamrolled by those premades many times in a row even I had adapted the mentality of "let them win fast so I can queue again and hopefully will face a PUG for a change"


In all fairness even I have silently "prayed for this horror to end!" But usually when a PuG goes up against a premade it's a fast game anyways (unless the premade really sucks...). Closest I've ever come though was simply typing /afk (causes you to leave the battleground you are in for those unfamiliar with that functio) when it became apparent that both sides played equally bad and that the game would be dragged out foreeeeveeer!

Anyway to get to my point, the mentality you describe is mainly due to poor designing, and not so much because of the players. When both sides have the idea they can win, most people will gladly fight even if it takes longer. But when its actually profitable to loose on purpose because of poor game design then yes, people will act lame.

Thats true. Perhaps the fact that each instanced scenario we will fight in WAR will move our realm closer to or further away from sacking the enemies city instead of only being a way to get phat loot will help prevent it. Here's hoping! :mrgreen:

[Freax]

I have a feeling BG's are going to be one of the better 1 vs many careers that can pull crazy in stacked fights because of hatred. Well have to see.

[PokcheK]

Im sure that most want this for their chosen class, but I hope the blackguard is only good when piloted skillfully. I want this class to be anything but easy mode so that alot of people wont play it. I want it to have the ability to devistate though through skillful play.

The looks of the BG artwork make it seem like they should stand out on a field and inspire awe/dread. A army of them would also look cool, but like most, I want the enemy to see ME coming and quake in their boots :P

[Dukha]

Im sure that most want this for their chosen class, but I hope the blackguard is only good when piloted skillfully. I want this class to be anything but easy mode so that alot of people wont play it. I want it to have the ability to devistate though through skillful play.
I absolutely agree. Actually thats kinda my general hope for this entire game, that careers scale very well with skill.

[Nerak]

Skill is harder to quantify in an MMO than in other games though.

Yeah, people who know their class and know what ability to use in a specific situation will more than likely dominate, but at the same time, if some class is built as a spam-button class (*coughcoughWoWRoguescoughcough*), then you will see a lot of kiddies flock to that one.

[PokcheK]

Skill is harder to quantify in an MMO than in other games though.

Yeah, people who know their class and know what ability to use in a specific situation will more than likely dominate, but at the same time, if some class is built as a spam-button class (*coughcoughWoWRoguescoughcough*), then you will see a lot of kiddies flock to that one.


If the BG turns out to play like hit button 1, button2, hit button 3... then ill have to roll another because that would suck. I am a fan of positional attacks, and specific counters to specific attacks. Imo most "kids" go for the flashy classes that do mad dps so they can pwn. Im ok with some dps , but major contributions on the field through reaction to whats going on, through cc , protection, knockdowns, snares, interrupts etc.

[Nerak]

If the BG turns out to play like hit button 1, button2, hit button 3... then ill have to roll another because that would suck. I am a fan of positional attacks, and specific counters to specific attacks. Imo most "kids" go for the flashy classes that do mad dps so they can pwn. Im ok with some dps , but major contributions on the field through reaction to whats going on, through cc , protection, knockdowns, snares, interrupts etc.

I don't think the Black Guard will have positional attacks. Counters could be in, but who knows. I just don't think you will see any positional attacks with a BG considering it's a tank/head-on attacker. Positional attacks are more for Melee DPSers like the Witch Hunter or Witch Elf.

[PokcheK]

I don't think the Black Guard will have positional attacks. Counters could be in, but who knows. I just don't think you will see any positional attacks with a BG considering it's a tank/head-on attacker. Positional attacks are more for Melee DPSers like the Witch Hunter or Witch Elf.


Youre probably right, but a powerful positional might give someone a damn good reason to turn and face you.

[Kellaris]

Im ok with some dps , but major contributions on the field through reaction to whats going on, through cc , protection, knockdowns, snares, interrupts etc.


I'm afraid, that in that case Black Orc might be best choice for You.
Of course it is drawing in the water at this point, but looking at the known skill lists, Black Orc has best CC of all Tank classes.
BG IMO will be similiar to Iron Breaker damage dealing tank. I do not mean DPS class, but I suspect several AOE attacks which may gie considerable damae output without taking place of pure DPS class (and killing nemy healer in 5 seconds).

[Angelfire]

If you are heavily outnumbered in an unwinnable battle and you don't retreat you are a terrible player. When you allow the other side to kill you you are contributing to their faction and hurting your own. It is highly unlikey in any 3v1 or worse situation you will take even one person down with you (realistically).

There are times when this is a good strategy. If you are buying time for teammates to get to a keep or complete an objective it can be worth it. But to stand and get slaughtered by a horde of enemies because you are "stubborn" means you are also stupid and foolish. Even most Samurai wouldn't stand their ground versus impossible odds, it is much better to retreat gather yourself and your forces and rally back to put up a much better fight.

[Nerak]

If you are heavily outnumbered in an unwinnable battle and you don't retreat you are a terrible player. When you allow the other side to kill you you are contributing to their faction and hurting your own. It is highly unlikey in any 3v1 or worse situation you will take even one person down with you (realistically).

There are times when this is a good strategy. If you are buying time for teammates to get to a keep or complete an objective it can be worth it. But to stand and get slaughtered by a horde of enemies because you are "stubborn" means you are also stupid and foolish. Even most Samurai wouldn't stand their ground versus impossible odds, it is much better to retreat gather yourself and your forces and rally back to put up a much better fight.

If you are referring to my original post, I invite you to go back and reread it, and this time putting it into context of the game's lore before you start calling people out for being "terrible players".