Engineers: Throwing Arm

[Torjok]

The "throwing arm" tactic in the Engineer's "Path of the Grenadier" is an extremely useful tactic that allows an Engineer to improve the range of his normally 65ft DoTs to 100ft. The tactic has been the source of much discussion between the Engineer/Magus community because many Magi complain that this ability makes the Engineer class significantly more powerful than they are due to the fact that the Magus does not have a mirror of this ability. As a result, it has been proposed that the Magus deserves a range enhancement tactic of its own.

My gut reaction as a Magus player myself is to agree with this idea, but after thinking things over I'm fairly certain that having a 100ft range on my best abilities would make my character extremely overpowered. Actually, I really enjoy the fact that Mythic designed the Magus with three vastly different styles of play ranging from a front line bomber to a back line sniper and I see no reason to change this.

Hence, the question I'm left to ponder is, "if my Magus would be OP with this ability, why does an Engineer have it?" To be honest, I can't come up with a good answer to that question. To be fair, I don't think that the Engineer and the Magus need to be completely identical for the game to be balanced. However, as it stands this one tactic is throwing the balance of power way too far in Order's favor. In T3, Engineers actually serve as my counter in scenarios because they can put DoTs on me while I am unable to shoot back!

The way I see it, the Engineer either needs to have a new tactic that is not quite so powerful in place of "throwing arm" or the Engineer needs to have its overall damage scaled down to compensate for the risk that is supposed to accompany using spells with a 65ft range. Seeing as how I believe that the Engineer's damage is now finally where it should be in terms of raw output, I think that the former solution is the best answer.

I would greatly appreciate the feedback of actual Engineer players on this issue. If you would like to point out some huge advantage that the Magus gets which I am unaware of in order to balance out my perspective, please feel free to bring it to my attention here; I would to hear about it. :)

-Torjok

[BenefitsBook]

Your area of effects dots with exception to mist, are faster duration dots, with additional abilities.

In conjunction with your other core abilities that deal instant DD out from your base as well as other abilities that snare etc, you do not get a range increase but that would make magus extremely overpowered. Your make up for the range with sheer damage, and additional effects on your dots. (Indigo fire of change, a crit tactic, and other core dots, etc.)

Not to mention you get a 15% chance to critical on all your dots higher in the spec, which Engineer has no other equal higher end tactic to compare.

In other words, you're the offensive mirror to the archetype, and you're built for it.

Engineers on the other hand, are the defensive counterpart, have longer duration dots, that have no additional effects on them other than damage with exception to Acid bomb, and do not have the same cone damage core spells, or mechanics as a magus. For instance the majority of your dots deal damage over a 6-15 (specced dots as well) second period, while the majority of ours are anywhere between 15-21 seconds which is a big decrease in effective Damage Per Second.

Also in comparison your single target damage line is a lot better than anything Engineers truly get in their rifleman line as well.

Overall throwing arm was given to engineers to make the spec actually usable considering our longer duration dots, and less tools when we're engaged up close and personal than the magus have. Our snare is a melee ability which means that it has high chance of being blocked/parried/evaded in comparison to your magical snare, which makes it easier to land in a pinch.

Magus have too many abilities that if given a 100ft range, would put them on par with Sorcerers without a Backlash mechanic, something Engineers definitly can't do even with the extended range when compared to a Bright Wizard.

In otherwords, I believe the two classes to be balanced, and I've actually even considered making a magus for my destruction alt just because they're pretty damn cool with their abilities, the damage they can put out (i've seen some awesome magus kick some butt), and the cool disk they float on is a plus as well.

The only thing keeping me from doing it is the fact that I would feel guilty playing on destruction adding to the already ridiculous overpopulation problems against order. If I could find a active server like Skull Throne with a good population of both I'd definitely make one.

[Torjok]

Interesting. Thanks for the post BenefitsBook.

[Efertin]

To BenefitsBook: Stop spouting out crap. You really should check Wardb before commenting on class balance.

Engineer and Magus dots have the exact same durations, some engineer dots have higher base damage and some Magus dots have higher base damage, and work on different mechanics. (Pandemonium has 25 higher base damage than Fragmentation Grenade, but Fragmentation isn't magical damage, it's physical etc)

Magi don't have any "additional effects" on their DoTs except Glean Magic, which is the equilevant of Acid Bomb and the level 30 DoT which reduces disrupt chance, and you've got equilevant of that as Signal Flare which reduces dodge and block by 5% (and you can tactic it to increase damage taken from all sources by 15%, which is blatantly, horribly overpowered but that's another topic, heard it's bugged though.)

Magi and Engineers have got basically the exactly same abilities, and both of your long ranged lines suck equally badly. Basically, the only difference between these careers is the emphasis on CC in the engineer lines versus the Magus damage equilevants. Shame Magi don't need any more tools to do damage (especially when most of the career mastery tools are stupidly bad) while CC is always good. Because of this CC, you've got way more tools when you're "up close and personal" than the Magus does.

And then, we've got Throwing Arm, which turns the Engineer's "short range combat line" into a LONG RANGE COMBAT LINE. That is just utterly stupid. It says that it's a short range combat line on the career builder, so it's just not my imagination.

Basically, no career should have a 50% range advantage over their mirror class, especially if it's on a "short ranged combat line". I'm more on the side of removing Throwing Arm and giving Engineers the +15% crit tactic than giving the Magus something as stupid. (considering their Changing line is ALSO a "short range combat line") 15% crit doesn't even come close to offsetting the survivability gain, the damage gain and the utility/mobility gain you get from _+50%_ more range on 65 ft spells.

[Lauren Love]

To BenefitsBook: Stop spouting out crap. You really should check Wardb before commenting on class balance.

Engineer and Magus dots have the exact same durations, some engineer dots have higher base damage and some Magus dots have higher base damage, and work on different mechanics. (Pandemonium has 25 higher base damage than Fragmentation Grenade, but Fragmentation isn't magical damage, it's physical etc)

Magi don't have any "additional effects" on their DoTs except Glean Magic, which is the equilevant of Acid Bomb.

Magi and Engineers have got basically the exactly same abilities, and both of your long ranged lines suck equally badly. Basically, the only difference between these careers is the emphasis on CC in the engineer lines versus the Magus damage equilevants. Shame Magi don't need any more tools to do damage (especially when most of the career mastery tools are stupidly bad) while CC is always good. Because of this CC, you've got way more tools when you're "up close and personal" than the Magus does.

And then, we've got Throwing Arm, which turns the Engineer's "short range combat line" into a LONG RANGE COMBAT LINE. That is just utterly stupid. It says that it's a short range combat line on the career builder, so it's just not my imagination.

Basically, no career should have a 50% range advantage over their mirror class, especially if it's on a "short ranged combat line". I'm more on the side of removing Throwing Arm and giving Engineers the +15% crit tactic than giving the Magus something as stupid. (considering their Changing line is ALSO a "short range combat line") 15% crit doesn't even come close to offsetting the survivability gain, the damage gain and the utility/mobility gain you get from _+50%_ more range on 65 ft spells.

He/She summed up what I wanted to say.

Don't forget your turrets have side-effects (Armor Reducers, Spell Interrupts, etc.), and you have a ranged Auto-Attack and two sets of Stat Enhancers (Spanner/Rifle), as well as a Point Blank Morale.



Throwing Arm should be removed and replaced. Devastatingly upper-handed compared to the magus' tactic.

[Xerit]

I play an engineer, however I don't know much about the Magus class so I wont try to spout nonsense about why this shouldn't happen.

HOWEVER: If you're going to give it to Magus, then I would like to see it also given to SW which would be the only non-combustion mechanic class that has no way to enlarge its short range abilities to long range.

EDIT: I will however defend a few things from an above post I hadn't read yet.

Signal Flares +15% is currently and has always been bugged and only increases the first attack from each player used after it is applied.

The "cc" in our trees is Crack Shot (which is a disarm not a CC), strafing run (which is terrible, small knockback, long cooldown, all it really does is hand out free immunities), and electromagnet (which Magus have). So I don't really know what you're talking about on the "we have way more CC from our trees".

[Efertin]

I play an engineer, however I don't know much about the Magus class so I wont try to spout nonsense about why this shouldn't happen.

HOWEVER: If you're going to give it to Magus, then I would like to see it also given to SW which would be the only non-combustion mechanic class that has no way to enlarge its short range abilities to long range.

EDIT: I will however defend a few things from an above post I hadn't read yet.

Signal Flares +15% is currently and has always been bugged and only increases the first attack from each player used after it is applied.

The "cc" in our trees is Crack Shot (which is a disarm not a CC), strafing run (which is terrible, small knockback, long cooldown, all it really does is hand out free immunities), and electromagnet (which Magus have). So I don't really know what you're talking about on the "we have way more CC from our trees".

Disarms are crowd control, unless you really want to say that the only form of CC is 100% disables, i.e, knockdowns and stuns. You've got stopping power, which doesn't trigger immunity and is a medium distance KB, a 5s disarm with 100 ft range which is incredible and Strafing Run which is an AoE KB with quite a short distance, but not entirely useless. Point-Blank is a long KB which you've got too (and the Magus don't).

But this is just derailing the thread, we're not really supposed to be talking about Engineer/Magus CC differences, we're supposed to be talking about one tactic which entirely changes how the class/tree is supposed to function. That's what is broken.

Oh, and bugs really shouldn't be taken into account when comparing classes. Bugs will be fixed... eventually.

[Lauren Love]

[quote=Xerit;3142094]HOWEVER: If you're going to give it to Magus, then I would like to see it also given to SW which would be the only non-combustion mechanic class that has no way to enlarge its short range abilities to long range.[quote]

Short range as in a 110 foot range Eagle Eye, further increased by 10% when in Scout Stance?

Or do you mean the MOBILE bow attacks?

No. Working as intended.

[Xerit]

Disarms are crowd control, unless you really want to say that the only form of CC is 100% disables, i.e, knockdowns and stuns. You've got stopping power, which doesn't trigger immunity and is a medium distance KB, a 5s disarm with 100 ft range which is incredible and Strafing Run which is an AoE KB with quite a short distance, but not entirely useless. Point-Blank is a long KB which you've got too (and the Magus don't).

But this is just derailing the thread, we're not really supposed to be talking about Engineer/Magus CC differences, we're supposed to be talking about one tactic which entirely changes how the class/tree is supposed to function. That's what is broken.

Oh, and bugs really shouldn't be taken into account when comparing classes. Bugs will be fixed... eventually.

First, the classes as you have highlighted above and therefore aknowledge yourself are not perfect mirrors. Therefore you can't compare a single ability and claim its overpowered without looking at the rest of the picture.

Moving on, Disarm is nice I wasn't trying to say its not a CC, and of the ones you've highlighted above its probably the best example of a good we get from our trees.

Strafing Run by contrast IS completely useless, have you ever had the ability yourself? i've tested it, its AOE in a line, a line which it slowly affects a few feet at a time not all at once making it easy to dodge, the actual "knockback" effect is about as powerful as the one the volcano in Tor Anroc occaisionally uses on players that meaning you just seem to bounce a few feet higher than a normal jump and move back a step or two.

The knockback on Hip Shot (which requires a valuable tactic slot) may be more powerful, I haven't really tested it yet, but without a ranged snare (which we don't have) its not that big a deal since unless it is as effective as Point Blank the distance it creates wont really buy us much time and you're better off using the slot for something else and just using Concussion Grenade.

Point Blank is something we flat out get, however in return for not getting it Magus get something I think is far more powerful Grasping Darkness a ranged snare. However comparing morales is silly, we get an extra Point Blank Shot on our side, you get an extra Grasping Darkness or Scintilating Energy (one of the BEST ranged CCs in the game, especially for holding people on keep walls down while you FF them to death). Clearly in this respect we were never meant to be the same.

[Xerit]

[quote=Xerit;3142094]HOWEVER: If you're going to give it to Magus, then I would like to see it also given to SW which would be the only non-combustion mechanic class that has no way to enlarge its short range abilities to long range.[quote]

Short range as in a 110 foot range Eagle Eye, further increased by 10% when in Scout Stance?

Or do you mean the MOBILE bow attacks?


No. Working as intended.

The mobile ones, you know the ones SH's get to use at the same range I get to use my grenades. And its not just the mobility, its the utility attached to those skills that isn't attached to their stationary longer ranged counterparts.

If its working as intended when its in your favor, why not in ours?

[smartdot]

Short range as in a 110 foot range Eagle Eye, further increased by 10% when in Scout Stance?

Or do you mean the MOBILE bow attacks?

No. Working as intended.

ha funnny when you say that SW's get 110 foot range increased by 10%. I play a SW, and i read the tool tips quite frequently. The fact that you say that EE has 110 foot base range inclines me to believe that you just pulled it off Wardb, which uses Scout stance for all its tool tips.

Dont pass judgement on a class if you've never played it.

Also mirrors arnt exactly the same, and you dont see me whining for 1 second eagle eyes. (SH's get 1 second plinks that retain their 2 sec coefficient for Ballistic Skill)

[Lauren Love]

ha funnny when you say that SW's get 110 foot range increased by 10%. I play a SW, and i read the tool tips quite frequently. The fact that you say that EE has 110 foot base range inclines me to believe that you just pulled it off Wardb, which uses Scout stance for all its tool tips.

Dont pass judgement on a class if you've never played it.

Also mirrors arnt exactly the same, and you dont see me whining for 1 second eagle eyes. (SH's get 1 second plinks that retain their 2 sec coefficient for Ballistic Skill)

That was actually a typo on my part. I mean 100 ranged Eagle Eye increased by 10%.

And I never said you whined for 1sec Eagle Eye. You have Enchanted Arrows, which makes for a devastating combo with Festering Arrow.

This has gone waaaayyy off topic. Throwing arm should be replaced with the Magus' counterpart tactic. It's absolutely a play-breaking advantage.

[Efertin]

Also mirrors arnt exactly the same, and you dont see me whining for 1 second eagle eyes. (SH's get 1 second plinks that retain their 2 sec coefficient for Ballistic Skill)

The thing is, 1 second Plink doesn't entirely change how their class and the particular spec is supposed to function. Throwing Arm does.

It's almost the same thing for the SH's +50% on their Quick Shootin' abilities, but Quick Shootin' is mostly about mobile bow combat, while Grenadier is about short range combat, plus Shootin' wif da wind is a lot deeper in the tree. (Even though I think it also should be removed and replaced, and the same done for the SW tactic which reduces range)

And we're still talking about Throwing Arm, not SW v SH.

[MonsterX]

It's the same deal as Squig Herders and their 50% range to their Quick Shooting, but, I agree that the Shadow Warrior and the Magus should be given mirror tactics.

[Sim]

Alright let us saying that Mythic agrees to allow Magus to have Throwing Arm (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1564) or just get rid of it.

But in return, Engineers should be given something like Wild Changing (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8521)

[ungeziefer]

Basing your class balance arguments on wardb is a surefire recipe for fail.
I suggest playing the classes before posting on balance.

What wardb for example doesnt tell is that the engie moves are split between scaling with ballistic and strenght, resulting in a fubard tinker tree (magus doesnt gimp himself as much going for emagnet/chaotic rift.

Also, the magus is able to buff his teams resists against the engies aoe tree, the opposite is not the case.

Further, the magus has a channeled singletarget 100 ft direct damage spell in his 65tf aoe tree.

Most important though, the magus doesnt instagib in keep sieges due to bane shields.

All in all this pretty much looks like a joke/grief topic in response to (imho mostly justified) destro nerf calls.

[Lauren Love]

Basing your class balance arguments on wardb is a surefire recipe for fail.
I suggest playing the classes before posting on balance.

What wardb for example doesnt tell is that the engie moves are split between scaling with ballistic and strenght, resulting in a fubard tinker tree (magus doesnt gimp himself as much going for emagnet/chaotic rift.

Also, the magus is able to buff his teams resists against the engies aoe tree, the opposite is not the case.

Further, the magus has a channeled singletarget 100 ft direct damage spell in his 65tf aoe tree.

Most important though, the magus doesnt instagib in keep sieges due to bane shields.

All in all this pretty much looks like a joke/grief topic in response to (imho mostly justified) destro nerf calls.

Not to split hairs here, but Engineers still DO have a ranged Auto Attack, and two sets of Stat enhancers. (Rifle/Spanner)

[ungeziefer]

Not to split hairs here, but Engineers still DO have a ranged Auto Attack, and two sets of Stat enhancers. (Rifle/Spanner)

No to split hairs, but magus have no deadzone and can totally pawn in melee with a 2 handed staff opposed to our puny 1hand spanner on top of it. Magus have a lot more close range potential (demonology tree is also evidence for that).

Engies engangement range is different than that of a magus. End of story?

[Lauren Love]

No to split hairs, but magus have no deadzone and can totally pawn in melee with a 2 handed staff opposed to our puny 1hand spanner on top of it. Magus have a lot more close range potential (demonology tree is also evidence for that).

Engies engangement range is different than that of a magus. End of story?

Point-Blank vs. Mage Bolt

[ungeziefer]

Point-Blank vs. Mage Bolt

Yes, thanks for posting another piece of evidence that underlines my point. Magus has the one with TWICE the damage, engi the one that pushes the target out of his deadzone (a disadvantage the magus doesnt share).

[BenefitsBook]

To BenefitsBook: Stop spouting out crap. You really should check Wardb before commenting on class balance.

Engineer and Magus dots have the exact same durations, some engineer dots have higher base damage and some Magus dots have higher base damage, and work on different mechanics. (Pandemonium has 25 higher base damage than Fragmentation Grenade, but Fragmentation isn't magical damage, it's physical etc)

Magi don't have any "additional effects" on their DoTs except Glean Magic, which is the equilevant of Acid Bomb and the level 30 DoT which reduces disrupt chance, and you've got equilevant of that as Signal Flare which reduces dodge and block by 5% (and you can tactic it to increase damage taken from all sources by 15%, which is blatantly, horribly overpowered but that's another topic, heard it's bugged though.)

Magi and Engineers have got basically the exactly same abilities, and both of your long ranged lines suck equally badly. Basically, the only difference between these careers is the emphasis on CC in the engineer lines versus the Magus damage equilevants. Shame Magi don't need any more tools to do damage (especially when most of the career mastery tools are stupidly bad) while CC is always good. Because of this CC, you've got way more tools when you're "up close and personal" than the Magus does.

And then, we've got Throwing Arm, which turns the Engineer's "short range combat line" into a LONG RANGE COMBAT LINE. That is just utterly stupid. It says that it's a short range combat line on the career builder, so it's just not my imagination.

Basically, no career should have a 50% range advantage over their mirror class, especially if it's on a "short ranged combat line". I'm more on the side of removing Throwing Arm and giving Engineers the +15% crit tactic than giving the Magus something as stupid. (considering their Changing line is ALSO a "short range combat line") 15% crit doesn't even come close to offsetting the survivability gain, the damage gain and the utility/mobility gain you get from _+50%_ more range on 65 ft spells.

Actually, a good amount of things you've posted in here are either biased, or completely false. I'll try to address them in a respectful manner, even though I seriously would love to flame your ignorance on the issue into oblivion. So I'll just educate you on an issue you claim to already "know" about.

1) Fragmentation is Corporeal, not Physical.

2) Lets review all of the AoE dots and core abilities Engineers get versus magus. And we're not going ot point out the 20-30 points of damage difference since it doesn't really matter.

Acid Bomb (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1514) versus Glean Magic (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8482) = Identical

Flashbang Grenade (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1522) versus Surge of Insanity (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8475) = Identical until you take the tactic infernal pain, adding another dot on a 9 second duration. Much better than flashbang.

Fragmentation Grenade (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1510) versus Pandemonium (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8489) = Identical until Pandemonium tactic, which makes it much more superior to Fragmentation since it has a 50% chance to reapply its duration.

Sticky Bomb (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1539) versus Seed of Chaos (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8497) = Identical

Strafing Run (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1540) versus Indigo Fire of Change (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8502) - Indigo deals its damage over 6 seconds, has the ability to turn targets into demons if they are killed with this on, can be cast from 100ft range. Strafing run on the other hand is a shunned ability since the knock back is less than half of the knock back you get from a tactic slotted hip shot. Also it deals mediocre damage, and you must be point blank to use it.

Static Discharge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1530) versus Warpfire (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8485) = Warpfire deals the same damage as Static discharge on the first tick, and more after. This can be used to even greater effect if you are demonology specialized and chaotic rift people into one location.

Signal Flare (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1521) versus Withered Soul (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8491) = Identical

Baleful Transmogrification (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8488) versus Incendiary Rounds (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1515) = Identical

Mutating Blue Fire (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8486) versus No Engineer Equivalent



There are so many differences in that tree, and the tactics you gain are decent if not good for each of your trees compared to a few hand fulls that are decent for engineer. Your core abilities are so/so but your specced abilities are very good.

In conclusion, no Magus don't need Throwing Arm, their abilities have added effects, faster damage/better utility, or better situations in which they outshine Engineer dots by a large margin.

Also I wont get into specifics, but if you think the Magus single target line is junk, then you haven't played with, or are a good magus.

Overall, I could explain why Magus are balanced as they are without Throwing Arm, but something tells me you're too biased to even try to attempt to reason with you.

I think you should do your research kid and talk to some high renown rank maguses on your realm that know how to playt their characters well.

Something tells me you don't think Witch Elves are overpowered either, do you?

[Lauren Love]

Yes, thanks for posting another piece of evidence that underlines my point. Magus has the one with TWICE the damage, engi the one that pushes the target out of his deadzone (a disadvantage the magus doesnt share).

Right. Because THAT'S what an Engineer is thinking of when he uses PB. :rolleyes:

[BenefitsBook]

Right. Because THAT'S what an Engineer is thinking of when he uses PB. :rolleyes:

Point Blank actually has lost a lot of its utility after the Knock Back immunity change, and so engineers are slotting Stopping power which does not proc immunity, and then using concussion grenade for the second knock back since you can just get up to Morale 2 and use Unshakable focus which is one of the best morales in the game for RDPS.

So, yeah I'd say magebolt in the end is much more useful for burst since our Morale one lost a lot of its utility.

[Lauren Love]

Point Blank actually has lost a lot of its utility after the Knock Back immunity change, and so engineers are slotting Stopping power (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1561) which does not proc immunity, and then using concussion grenade (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1531) for the second knock back since you can just get up to Morale 2 and use Unshakable focus (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=649) which is one of the best morales in the game for RDPS.

So, yeah I'd say magebolt in the end is much more useful for burst since our Morale one lost a lot of its utility.


Really? You wouldn't want to just forget about the threat alltogether by launching it into the fiery pits of Tor Anroc's lava?

Or, say, into our Zerg? Off a cliff? Just...away?

[Efertin]

To BenefitsBook again:

I wouldn't call abilities with 100 ft range and 65 ft range "identical", would you? If my post was biased (which I think it isn't, because I play both dest and order), I don't know what yours is. You aren't taking into account at all the superior Engineer base abilities, such as Focused Fire (which is the same as Indigo Fire of Change, except it's base) or possibly Engineer's straight ~20% single target dps increase through autoattack.

Love how you compare abilities with tactics to abilities with no tactics equipped, yeah, I'm totally the only one being biased here.

Their abilities STILL don't have any added effects or faster damage, I really don't get where you're getting that from. A class with 65 ft range can't be compared with a class with 98 ft range, I agree. Did I mention that I'm being horribly biased here, yeah?

And actually I don't think WE's are overpowered as long as the opposing team doesn't suck, and coincidentally my 40 order is an AM, which is the easiest target for WE's. 1on1 WE's are overpowered, I'm with you on that.

[ungeziefer]

Efertin, you play neither engi nor magus on t4?

what are you basing your opinion on?

[Efertin]

Efertin, you play neither engi nor magus on t4?

what are you basing your opinion on?

I've got a 29 Magus, haven't played with it that much after the buffs, and a low level engineer. But even without playing class Y, I know when class Z is blatantly superior to it, especially if they're supposed to be mirrors.

I also know this from experience with playing against and with engineers, and I can safely say that 98 ft is leaps and bounds ahead of 65 ft range, not to even talk about to extra CC they bring and slightly better damage through Acid Bomb scaling better than Glean for some reason, and autoattack.

I still think the tactic should be removed and replaced with +15% crit or whatever you wish. Or maybe a tactic that allows casting Grenades/Changing spells on the move, but short range combat tree really shouldn't be turned into a long range combat tree with a tactic in low-mid tree.

And to BenefitsBook, feel free to "flame me into oblivion" through PM's, because most things you're saying here are just really, blatantly biased and flat out wrong. All emotion really should be kept out of the class balance forums.

[ungeziefer]

2nd hand experience and theorycrafting, all right :rolleyes:

[Fiale]

Pointless thread, the Throwing arm equivalant (like many abilites in this game) was not given to our direct mirror on Destruction but to the Squig Herder.

So unless you want to put a thread on the SH forum saying that they need it taken of them and given to you then the whole thing is mute (unless what you want is for SH, SW, ENd, Mag to all have it - which is different than most of the suggestions here).

[Efertin]

2nd hand experience and theorycrafting, all right :rolleyes:

Yep. Nice logic there. I really can't know anything about these classes without playing them to level 40. I must be totally clueless after 577 Engineer kills on my WE (most of them solo) and countless scenarios/keep fights played with Engineers on my AM.

But this is turning into a flamefest and is not constructive at all.

[ungeziefer]

I must be totally clueless after 577 Engineer kills on my WE.

For all we know, it could have been your pet monkey who did these.

[BenefitsBook]

To BenefitsBook again:

I wouldn't call abilities with 100 ft range and 65 ft range "identical", would you? If my post was biased (which I think it isn't, because I play both dest and order), I don't know what yours is. You aren't taking into account at all the superior Engineer base abilities, such as Focused Fire (which is the same as Indigo Fire of Change, except it's base) or possibly Engineer's straight ~20% single target dps increase through autoattack.

Love how you compare abilities with tactics to abilities with no tactics equipped, yeah, I'm totally the only one being biased here.

Their abilities STILL don't have any added effects or faster damage, I really don't get where you're getting that from. A class with 65 ft range can't be compared with a class with 98 ft range, I agree. Did I mention that I'm being horribly biased here, yeah?

And actually I don't think WE's are overpowered as long as the opposing team doesn't suck, and coincidentally my 40 order is an AM, which is the easiest target for WE's. 1on1 WE's are overpowered, I'm with you on that.


Then I dont need to say more, because you're obviously ignoring the facts even as they're right in front of you.

Also your information about Engineers is incorrect, and I suggest you research/play one before remarking on "balance" as you "see it."

[Efertin]

For all we know, it could have been your pet monkey who did these.

I play mostly solo because I seem to get stuck into a group of level 30's, so most of them are solo (or pre-patch when only your KB's counted). But yeah, if we go into questioning everything someone says this discussion can't progress much. (and it isn't really progressing right now anyway.)

Still waiting for an Engineer to explain how Throwing Arm is balanced with the Magus's mirror of +15% crit, and how it can be intended that it turns a short range tree into a long range tree, since I don't know anything about Engineers or Magi or any other classes than the AM/WE.

[Efertin]

Then I dont need to say more, because you're obviously ignoring the facts even as they're right in front of you.

Also your information about Engineers is incorrect, and I suggest you research/play one before remarking on "balance" as you "see it."

Tactics are not added effects, and you're ignoring the fact the Engineer has just way more range on their spells.

By your logic they are, and by your logic Engineers also have more "added effects" on their spells. Who's the one being biased? Also care to explain which piece of my information is incorrect?

Let's continue this discussion in PM if you wish to prove me wrong.

Seems to be the general class balance thread anyway, people playing the class that might see a nerf according to that thread come and defend their class and say that if you haven't played the class you can't have an idea of what that class is all about.


Agh, sorry for the double post. :x

[darxar]

Pointless thread, the Throwing arm equivalant (like many abilites in this game) was not given to our direct mirror on Destruction but to the Squig Herder.

So unless you want to put a thread on the SH forum saying that they need it taken of them and given to you then the whole thing is mute (unless what you want is for SH, SW, ENd, Mag to all have it - which is different than most of the suggestions here).


This was my understanding . Thanks fiale.

[Kriesha]

Pointless thread, the Throwing arm equivalant (like many abilites in this game) was not given to our direct mirror on Destruction but to the Squig Herder.

So unless you want to put a thread on the SH forum saying that they need it taken of them and given to you then the whole thing is mute (unless what you want is for SH, SW, ENd, Mag to all have it - which is different than most of the suggestions here).

And here we have the winner.

[Kweep]

I find little issue with having a 65ft range other then keep defending/sieging.

Make all those abilities for poth classes 80ft (if any)and give engineers a new talent. IMO neither class should have a 100ft range on those abilities.

[BenefitsBook]

Tactics are not added effects, and you're ignoring the fact the Engineer has just way more range on their spells.

By your logic they are, and by your logic Engineers also have more "added effects" on their spells. Who's the one being biased? Also care to explain which piece of my information is incorrect?

Let's continue this discussion in PM if you wish to prove me wrong.

Seems to be the general class balance thread anyway, people playing the class that might see a nerf according to that thread come and defend their class and say that if you haven't played the class you can't have an idea of what that class is all about.


Agh, sorry for the double post. :x

My logic? I think we're done here, you probably didn't even bother to read the information, or you don't understand game mechanics and how they work with the classes.

Regardless I don't need to waste my time with it, and despite what you think, throwing arm will not be nerfed anytime soon.

The only classes that are possibly up for nerfs are all Destruction classes, witch elves mainly.

Anyway, can we get a mod to lock this thread? Its pretty much gone no where.

[Efertin]

My logic? I think we're done here, you probably didn't even bother to read the information, or you don't understand game mechanics and how they work with the classes.

Regardless I don't need to waste my time with it, and despite what you think, throwing arm will not be nerfed anytime soon.

The only classes that are possibly up for nerfs are all Destruction classes, witch elves mainly.

Anyway, can we get a mod to lock this thread? Its pretty much gone no where.

So you can only insult me and whine about my class instead of adding anything constructive to the discussion. It's quite obvious that the thread goes nowhere that way, and I already said that we can continue this discussion in PM's if you really think you're right in basically anything you've said to me.

And just to add SOMETHING to the discussion: I still think that Throwing Arm and the SH "equilevant" should be changed to something which fits the theme of the three (such as grenades being castable on the move), and there still has been no engineer saying why they should have it.

And to rest my case (atleast until an Engineer explains why they should have such a career changing tactic); I'll quote BenefitsBook, since this seems to be the newest thing to do:

get Throwing Arm (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1564). You can pick up the other two abilities again in the next two levels, but this ability is an absolute must. With it your grenades can be thrown at a distance of 98 feet, which is only 2 feet short of magic spells. This gets you out of a ton of danger from having to play mid field to drop your grenades, and puts casters at a serious long distance threat of being interrupted and harassed. Not only that, it gives you a huge range to drop grenades on anyone else ensuring that you have a solid long range radius of constant damage to keep your dots fresh on every target available. Your survivability goes up and since its grants you such long range its only two steps back to be out of caster fire instead of thirty steps back and diving for some terrain cover. This ability is absolutely amazing and I can't stress how important it is a Grenadier to pick up this tactic first when you can purchase it.

[Blundertoph Obslist]

Magus and Engineer are very well balanced, although Throwing Arm -should- be changed.

It totally changes the purpose of the mastery path.


Maybe it should be changed to kick the power of all Engineer Knock Backs up a notch, and add some more damage to Strafing Run.

[Torjok]

I would just like to remind everyone to please be respectful of the posts being made here. The reason I created this thread was for discussion to actually happen related to this issue from multiple viewpoints. It should be readily apparent from the posts that have been made so far that everyone brings a certain bias to the table, even those who are admirably trying not to.

The key word here is balance. Hence, if the conclusion is reached that the Engineer's tactic must be toned down or that the Magus should receive a buff, I don't want to go any further in either direction than is absolutely necessary (not that it really matters what conclusion we come to anyways because we ultimately don't have any direct power to make changes; we can only provide Mythic with data).

Also, the point about the SH receiving the range boosting tactic is interesting because at the end of the day we need to discuss realm vs realm balance over class vs mirror balance.

Thanks all for your input so far.

[yukishiro1]

Both the Engi and SH versions are too powerful not to be given to the SW and Magus.

Either the talent needs to be available to all four classes or to none. It makes SWs and Magus toot underpoered compared to the other two.

[Paranoia]

At above post - It doesn't make us underpowered at all.

For the thread...I'm not sure. I certainly don't want the tactic on my magus. If I spec Changing thats because I am using 65ft range abilities. I do not want two long range masteries.

I actually think that just making Wild Changing tactic and the Havoc equivalent to a +25% crit chance will suffice. Really the only thing these tactics effect are DoT ticks, and the odd DD ability when you get lucky. Give them longer range DoTs, give us the chance at better damage DoTs.

Anyone else agree?

[Crouton]

At above post - It doesn't make us underpowered at all.

For the thread...I'm not sure. I certainly don't want the tactic on my magus. If I spec Changing thats because I am using 65ft range abilities. I do not want two long range masteries.

I actually think that just making Wild Changing tactic and the Havoc equivalent to a +25% crit chance will suffice. Really the only thing these tactics effect are DoT ticks, and the odd DD ability when you get lucky. Give them longer range DoTs, give us the chance at better damage DoTs.

Anyone else agree?

No because range in this game translates into survivability and survivability in turn translates into more damage. Then add in the extra damage you can do when you're not running in and out of everybody's range and instead can stand still and cast. It all easily adds up to more than the 7.5% extra damage you get from Wild Changing and far more damage than the 10% extra damage from the craptastic 9132.

Therefore more range = more damage, especially when stacked up against things like Terrible Embrace and teleport aka Pounce which puts a huge dent into being in 65ft range for anything.

I actually don't want Throwing Arm nerfed (or Shooting With the Wind for SHs). I want that given to SWs and Maguses. Now hear me out, IF (and it's a big one) the tactics for these 4 rdps careers were good, giving up a tactic slot for the Shooting Arm equivalent for these 4 careers would be a sacrifice. However, if you look at the Magus and SW tactics, you'll see that actually giving up a tactic slot for a Throwing Arm type tactic is a no brainer since the tactics on those two careers absolutely suck.

The tactics for SH and Engineer however are far better and giving up a slot for Throwing Arm is an actual sacrifice. I'd like to see the tactics for SWs and Maguses improved and then the classes given the option of a Throwing Arm type range increase tactic so we have to give up a tactic slot for something like the Steady Aim equivalent across the classes for example.

[Ascent]

Anyway, can we get a mod to lock this thread? Its pretty much gone no where.Actually, it's been pretty informative, and one of the better threads in this new sub-forum.

Maybe you should just avoid the thread?

If there's been any sort of flaming, it's been at least on a 10th grade level. That's a huge improvement over the relatively common kindergarten level threads.

To be honest, the only real information I hope to find here should cover a career or multiple careers' abilities, and the personal opinions of players on how they perform within the career. As I said, there's been enough of that in this thread that it would be silly to close it. You and your buddy there should both just quietly withdraw your participation in it.

[yukishiro1]

Whenever someone tries to get a thread locked it's a pretty good sign they're afraid of the content.

The talent, and the similar one on SHs, completely changes the nature of the trees they are in in a fundamental way. If that is something that is supposed to happen, it needs to happen to all four classes with their 65 foot range trees, not just two. The two that don't get the option of the tree-changing talent are left inferior in comparison.

[SeraphNora]

My main is black orc 40 and my magus is half way from 39 to 40 now and i would like to add like someone mentioned before magus tactics really blow so a good suggestion would be :

Keep throwing arm as is on engineers to keep the mirrors different but change magus tactics into something more viable .

I use warped flesh which is a race not class tactic a 160 int tactic which is a general spellcaster tactic and a crit tactic which is the only class tactic and there is really nothing else i really feel excited about.

For example strengthen thrall 33% extra heal is absolutely retarded. On my black orc i got loudmouth at similar level and thats absolutely amazing while strengthen thrall is utterly pointless since anyone who cares about demons would invest in instant demon tactic instead, it just makes you think that mythic couldnt come up with anything original it makes me really sad . Similarly the surge of insanity tactic is utterly useless. I can go on and on but im sure people involved in this discussion are all aware of our craptastic tactics.

But puting that aside throwing arm is fine on engineer and no magus doesnt need it BUT we need our crap tactics changed into something AS good but original to the magus class.

[Foofmonger]

My 2 cents:

Remove Throwing Arm: Its unbalancing for the Magus class, and makes Rifleman spec less attractive.

The three masteries for these classes should be implemented as described, one long range, one mid, one short. Not one long, another long, and a short (in the Engineers case).

Give them something good to replace it, but the 100ft nade chucking has to go.

[Fiale]

My 2 cents:

Remove Throwing Arm: Its unbalancing for the Magus class, and makes Rifleman spec less attractive.

The three masteries for these classes should be implemented as described, one long range, one mid, one short. Not one long, another long, and a short (in the Engineers case).

Give them something good to replace it, but the 100ft nade chucking has to go.

Put your suggestion on the Squig herder forum and see how they feel about losing their extended range - if they are happy about it then maybe engineers will have to take the bullet as well - my feeling is however they will not treat you to warmly.

[Foofmonger]

Put your suggestion on the Squig herder forum and see how they feel about losing their extended range - if they are happy about it then maybe engineers will have to take the bullet as well - my feeling is however they will not treat you to warmly.

I feel the same way about the SH tactic as well.

/shrug, and I doubt anyone would be happy about it. But I think it would be for the good of the game as a whole.

[AshaneFB]

However, if you look at the Magus and SW tactics, you'll see that actually giving up a tactic slot for a Throwing Arm type tactic is a no brainer since the tactics on those two careers absolutely suck.

/Laugh...

Best post of them all.

Thats completely how I feel when I play my wife's Magus, and how my guildmate feels on his SW.

I really wish Magus's and SW'ers had to sacrafice some tactics to put in better ones, but sadly thats just not the case.

I completely agree that either Throwing Arm needs to go (And shooting wif), or SW/Magus need it. This isnt about Order/Destruction, since there is a class on BOTH sides that is completely subpar toward its counterpart. This is purely about balancing out the red headed step child RDPS classes. Not everyone is a BW/Sorc/Engineer/SH RDPS.

[zerj]

Put your suggestion on the Squig herder forum and see how they feel about losing their extended range - if they are happy about it then maybe engineers will have to take the bullet as well - my feeling is however they will not treat you to warmly.

They'd probably treat you about as warmly as if you posted on the engineer forum that you wanted to give throwing arm to the Shadow Warrior.

[Ascent]

Give them something good to replace it, but the 100ft nade chucking has to go./signed

Remove Throwing Arm and give a mirror of it to SW. Keep SH's in the game.

[AshaneFB]

Ideally for me we'd get rid of throwing arm (and give it to SW's as has been said above), replace magnet & rift, and make all 3 paths completely viable.

Engineer's & Magus's should both have a very feared close range PB path, that lends itself to lots of death (both your enemies and yours), a medium path that can do well with less risk than the above path, and a long range path that is less damage than a Sorc/BW, but far more survivability than either.

Maybe thats just me, but thats how I feel about it. An for the love of god, give Engineer's/Magus's "wall" type abilities. Cross ------- that line and it'll freaking hurt when you do!