Imbalances. Problems and Solutions.

[PoisonTaco]

While I'm generally not one to complain about faction imbalance, I would like to add myself to the number of people who think that this game is tipped slightly in Destruction's favour. This is not an absolute game breaking imbalance, but it does have an impact in RvR. It's not the fact that one class is overpowered, but that Destruction has a few overpowered classes when compared to their Order counterparts that make an imbalance.

Order needs comparable melee DPS to Destruction. We all know the deal with Witch Elves and that they are a tad bit too strong. While I think Witch Elves should be able to take down soft targets efficiently, they do it a little bit too quick and from my experience they can take down tanks a little bit too easily. Marauders are fine, it's just the underwhelming White Lions that make Marauders seem overpowered. Why shouldn't Witch Hunters and White Lions be able to tear people apart as much as Witch Elves and Marauders.

Order's classes aren't as polished as Destruction's mirrors. Does this mean all of Order's classes are bad? By all means no, but it is clear that many of them need some more work still. White Lions, Swordmasters, Shadow Warriors, Archmages and Witch Hunters should be looked at a little bit more closely. I almost put Engineers in but they've gotten better along with Magi from what I've seen in the 1.0.6 and 1,1 patches. This is not just damage we're talking about, but there are areas in all these classes that need some work. Does this mean there aren't Destruction classes that need to be looked at? No, however there are more classes on Order that, dispite being fun to play, are underwhelming to their Destruction counterparts.

Order's shining classes have been brought in line, with Destruction's stars still standing. Deny it all you want, any of you, but Bright Wizards were overpowered. The last few patches have brought them into line but they can still pack a punch as they very well should. Bright Wizards and Ironbreakers have been brought into line as they've been a little bit too powerful for Destruction. At the same time, Destruction's stronger classes stay the way they are and the Witch Elf even got a couple buffs in regards to killing Ironbreakers.

With these put together, I do believe that Destruction does have a bit of an advantage over Order when it comes to endgame RvR. Some people, including myself, will say that Order does win a lot of battles. I'm not going to deny it as there are many nights where I've seen Order decimate Destruction and there's nights when Destruction just rolls over Order. Now I hate just complaining about Destruction getting everything handed to them. I'd rather find what's wrong and fix it to make the game better for everyone.

For anyone who's going to deny this whole post? I want you to prove me wrong. Just do it. I'd love to be wrong, because then this game would be a little bit more balanced as far as factions are concerned. I don't hate WAR, I enjoy playing it. Sometimes though it does get frustrating when these little imbalances are glaring you in the face. We all want a nice, well balanced game. While it's pretty good, it still needs some touch-ups.

PS: Sorry for picking on you Witch Elves, but there really is no other glaring overpowered class. While I have read many thread regarding your class, I do think you're a tad overpowered... your nerf is coming, but I think it should be in the form of a Witch Hunter buff.

[Enai]

While I'm generally not one to complain about faction imbalance, I would like to add myself to the number of people who think that this game is tipped slightly in Destruction's favour. This is not an absolute game breaking imbalance, but it does have an impact in RvR. It's not the fact that one class is overpowered, but that Destruction has a few overpowered classes when compared to their Order counterparts that make an imbalance.

Order needs comparable melee DPS to Destruction. We all know the deal with Witch Elves and that they are a tad bit too strong. While I think Witch Elves should be able to take down soft targets efficiently, they do it a little bit too quick and from my experience they can take down tanks a little bit too easily. Marauders are fine, it's just the underwhelming White Lions that make Marauders seem overpowered. Why shouldn't Witch Hunters and White Lions be able to tear people apart as much as Witch Elves and Marauders.

Order's classes aren't as polished as Destruction's mirrors. Does this mean all of Order's classes are bad? By all means no, but it is clear that many of them need some more work still. White Lions, Swordmasters, Shadow Warriors, Archmages and Witch Hunters should be looked at a little bit more closely. I almost put Engineers in but they've gotten better along with Magi from what I've seen in the 1.0.6 and 1,1 patches. This is not just damage we're talking about, but there are areas in all these classes that need some work. Does this mean there aren't Destruction classes that need to be looked at? No, however there are more classes on Order that, dispite being fun to play, are underwhelming to their Destruction counterparts.

Order's shining classes have been brought in line, with Destruction's stars still standing. Deny it all you want, any of you, but Bright Wizards were overpowered. The last few patches have brought them into line but they can still pack a punch as they very well should. Bright Wizards and Ironbreakers have been brought into line as they've been a little bit too powerful for Destruction. At the same time, Destruction's stronger classes stay the way they are and the Witch Elf even got a couple buffs in regards to killing Ironbreakers.

With these put together, I do believe that Destruction does have a bit of an advantage over Order when it comes to endgame RvR. Some people, including myself, will say that Order does win a lot of battles. I'm not going to deny it as there are many nights where I've seen Order decimate Destruction and there's nights when Destruction just rolls over Order. Now I hate just complaining about Destruction getting everything handed to them. I'd rather find what's wrong and fix it to make the game better for everyone.

For anyone who's going to deny this whole post? I want you to prove me wrong. Just do it. I'd love to be wrong, because then this game would be a little bit more balanced as far as factions are concerned. I don't hate WAR, I enjoy playing it. Sometimes though it does get frustrating when these little imbalances are glaring you in the face. We all want a nice, well balanced game. While it's pretty good, it still needs some touch-ups.

PS: Sorry for picking on you Witch Elves, but there really is no other glaring overpowered class. While I have read many thread regarding your class, I do think you're a tad overpowered... your nerf is coming, but I think it should be in the form of a Witch Hunter buff.

Look at the south KV keep :) another "mistake" :)

[Champion]

Sorry but the comment "the grass is always greener on the other side" needs to be said here.

Before the C and C patch i would say magus/engineer/chosen/squig/SH/chosen

Were the most unpolished classes.

It's nearly a month later and the chosen class is still lame as ever. When i saw the KOTBS tactics i instantly wanted to reroll. A 10% crit group buff and 15% increased healing on ALL party members (chosen can only increase healing by 15%). I would instantly trade ability lists with the KOTBS.

[Grogtooth]

Mainly a forum junkie and theory buff here, but wouldn't the class breakdowns kind of refute your point? Let me know if you disagree with any match up, but I think the overall picture is pretty clear. Also, note this list does agree with you on most of your points, but points out the classes you don't bother mentioning (IE all the ones that are better on order)

Short version with explanations to follow:

iron breaker > black orc (debatable)
engineer > magus
rune priest > zealot
witch hunter < witch elf
KotBS > chosen
WP > dok
Bright Wizard > sorc
SM < BG (not much data)
SW < SH
WL < Marauder

6 to 4 advantage order... interesting no?

Longer version with explanations (read at own risk:)

iron breaker is probably a bit better than black orc. They appear to have better damage and cc, if not quite as good of survivability.

engineer better than magus. Throwing arm and auto attack damage make engineers much better ranged dps. Magus rift line is a bit better than the tinkerer line, however.

rune priest better than zealot. Tactics and survivability.

witch hunter less than witch elf, though WH do tend to win heads up fights do to better disarm/parry

KotBS better than chosen, though dire shielding is great in zerg v zerg. This one is a bit early to call, but most chosen look at KotBS abilities and get very jealous

WP better than dok, but both are quite good now. WP is more survivable, more bursty, and simply has better mastery trees. SE regeneration is stronger.

BW better than sorc. Pretty obvious, though sorcs do have some nice group buffs

SM might be weaker than BG, little early to tell yet. I'll give the BG the nod for now though

SW worse than SH, though more able to switch from range to melee

WL worse than Marauder, though very good single target damage and fetch/pounce are quite nice. Maruader just has much better aoe and debuffs

[itnas]

Short version with explanations to follow:

iron breaker > black orc (debatable)
engineer > magus
rune priest > zealot
witch hunter < witch elf
KotBS > chosen
WP > dok
Bright Wizard > sorc
SM < BG (not much data)
SW < SH
WL < Marauder



Haven't you forgoten AM<Shaman? ;)

Tho I would say that WP=DoK, where one is better the other is worst so over all they are balanced.
RP and Zelots seems to be very even too, perhaps with a little advantage for RP but that doesn't make it that greater in comparison.
The big diference imho comes when looking at 1 of the orders fation, the H. Elves, they seem to be the ones that suffer the most among all classes, each h.elf class is worst than its mirror, for example wail you say SW are worst but atlist can change fast from range to mele, doesn't help them all that mutch since even if players keep hiting their heads agains a wall "Hybrid class" statement, it was clearly explained by mythic that SW= good at range but bad at mele, or decent at mele and bad at range, as it is SW is worst at range than a 5 ft goblin with a short bow ;).

[Darkpheonix]

Ironbreaker and black gaurd are the correct parring as well as sword master and black orc.

[PinkysBrain]

Class comparisons are useless without context.

Chosen is weak, in context. Chosen is the most effective class in another ... any WB should have a couple of Chosen, one Chosen will be more effective for the WB than multiple other tanks. If Destruction had order tanks this would still be true.

WL is weak, in context. Any group fighting outside of keeps should have a WL, they will add more than any other class. If Order had the Marauder this would still be true.

Power of classes is purely contextual (and I might add that in the context of high density combat Order is pretty much strictly weaker).

[Grogtooth]

Ok, I did forget Shaman and Archmage and tactics do make the Shaman better.

The whole tank think is very debatable. Most people go by tank roll over mechanic though, as what the class does is more important for balance than how they do it.

I think your right about context, though the kotbs is also very strong in a warband.

[Eisenhart]

Ironbreaker and black gaurd are the correct parring as well as sword master and black orc.
It depends on how you look at it.

Even tho BO and SM have the same mechanic with 3 plans to execute their abilities then BO is destructions main tank while SM isnt comparable in tanking to IB.

Comparing IB to BO, youre comparing each sides main tank classes which is more productive since a comparison in mechanics doesnt prove anything.

[Kenyan]

A first big part of balancing classes is going to be making this not so one sided as far as the area effect knockdown and stun disable abilities. Destruction players can try to make 'Order has the exact same number of them' arguments (we don't) and attempt to counter that it is even and balanced (It's not) til they are blue in the face but the fact remains that it is not even and balanced.

Order melee dps careers do not have the Concussive Jolt and On Your Knees area or cone knockdown options available to them and when both sides' melee meets it is a clear advantage to the one that gets the dps headstart on the other. Order players pay the same amount per month to play this game, why are they being reduced to punching bags and defenseless renown point farming npcs for Destruction players to faceroll through?

Carnage spec WE should not be able to dps another player down to 20-25% health before the opening OYK wears off. The combination of a total disable and the ability to completely ignore armor and then greatly reduce the opponents armor for 20 seconds on a 10 second cooldown is a joke. Was there some kind of design or development decision that went into making this spec so easy to kill with while their target is unable to do anything compared to every other career and spec?
The defense that this is a team game holds no water in trying to defend this career and spec being as strong as it is. If its a team game there is even less of a need for a single career/spec combination to be such a potent weapon and have as overwhelmingly strong a set of tools to work with compared to everyone else.

Losing patience with this game and not going to give them money for it if they keep ignoring obvious imbalances and nerfing the overall lower population side while padding the larger population side for dominance. The 'Order is the defensive faction' argument is a joke. Both sides should have the same offensive and defensive options. Making mirror careers closer or identical in strength seems to frighten the developers design aesthetic (sp), but it would lead to a more balanced game for BOTH sides.

[Darkpheonix]

It depends on how you look at it.

Even tho BO and SM have the same mechanic with 3 plans to execute their abilities then BO is destructions main tank while SM isnt comparable in tanking to IB.

Comparing IB to BO, youre comparing each sides main tank classes which is more productive since a comparison in mechanics doesnt prove anything.

But the mechanism itself is what defines alot of the abilities that they get. I will agree that in alot of ways the actual use of the class mixes up the comparison but for comparing skills then you have to compare across the careers that match in mechanism. The biggest reason there is the flip between the two is how it was set up for their individual skills themselves. The IB and the BG use the same mechanism but the variation is that the IB is based around being heavy defensive, and the BG is based around heavy offensive. Hence you get the same basic buff ability (ie toughness), but the IB increases his and a party members toughness by 120 where as the BG debuffs the targets toughness by 120. Same mechanic but they are basicaly built around being two sides of the same coin.

This is where the SM/BG/BO/IB get muddy because like they do with alot of classes the moved abilities around. They moved the survivability off of the BG and moved it to the BO. This though does make sense because of what the black gaurd being the offensive side of the IB coin it would have been bad if they got that same survivability.

I disagree with pure mirrors. It is easily possible to balance it out as is but changes need to be done. The biggest would be adjusting the knockdown spread. Since KoTBS are hitting 40 Ive started to see alot of "Heavens Fury WTF" well hate to say it but imagine that on all order melee and you have basically what order has been dealing with alot. As to witch elves an adjustment does need to be made whether its buffing witch hunters who had their survivability nerfed to hell, or adjusting down on some of the witch elves damage to be more like a witch hunters. I would say though their knockdown should be removed.

[Malark]

I just don't agree, straight up, the CC is just as bad if you're a destro player maybe even worse because it seems to me that a Order melee train seems to be more effective than a destro melee train. Maybe i'm biased though.

I still don't understand this feeling that White Lions are underpowered, it just seems like nonsense.

[Eisenhart]

But the mechanism itself is what defines alot of the abilities that they get. I will agree that in alot of ways the actual use of the class mixes up the comparison but for comparing skills then you have to compare across the careers that match in mechanism. The biggest reason there is the flip between the two is how it was set up for their individual skills themselves. The IB and the BG use the same mechanism but the variation is that the IB is based around being heavy defensive, and the BG is based around heavy offensive. Hence you get the same basic buff ability (ie toughness), but the IB increases his and a party members toughness by 120 where as the BG debuffs the targets toughness by 120. Same mechanic but they are basicaly built around being two sides of the same coin.
The mechanics are not what defines the abilities.
Being able to instantly fire off the same ability or having to build up 2 plans is 2 whole different mechanics but the ability could still be the same.

In every game out there, the mechanics are not as different as they are in this game. However, you still compare the classes roles and not their mechanics.
By that im not saying mechanics doesnt influence your performance but when you compare 2 classes you want to compare how well the classes perform their role.

If an IB could outperform an BO in tanking and theyre both main tanks for their faction, then we would have a problem and you wouldnt see that problem if you start comparing to classes with the same mechanics. There is no point in compaing a BO to a class just because the class has the same mechanics if the role is different. A class success is defined on how well they perform their role while their mechanics can have an influence on how well they perform that role.
Once you start meassuring on roles you need to compare them to other classes with the same role.

[Ashonic]

A first big part of balancing classes is going to be making this not so one sided as far as the area effect knockdown and stun disable abilities. Destruction players can try to make 'Order has the exact same number of them' arguments (we don't) and attempt to counter that it is even and balanced (It's not) til they are blue in the face but the fact remains that it is not even and balanced.

Order melee dps careers do not have the Concussive Jolt and On Your Knees area or cone knockdown options available to them and when both sides' melee meets it is a clear advantage to the one that gets the dps headstart on the other. Order players pay the same amount per month to play this game, why are they being reduced to punching bags and defenseless renown point farming npcs for Destruction players to faceroll through?

Carnage spec WE should not be able to dps another player down to 20-25% health before the opening OYK wears off. The combination of a total disable and the ability to completely ignore armor and then greatly reduce the opponents armor for 20 seconds on a 10 second cooldown is a joke. Was there some kind of design or development decision that went into making this spec so easy to kill with while their target is unable to do anything compared to every other career and spec?
The defense that this is a team game holds no water in trying to defend this career and spec being as strong as it is. If its a team game there is even less of a need for a single career/spec combination to be such a potent weapon and have as overwhelmingly strong a set of tools to work with compared to everyone else.

Losing patience with this game and not going to give them money for it if they keep ignoring obvious imbalances and nerfing the overall lower population side while padding the larger population side for dominance. The 'Order is the defensive faction' argument is a joke. Both sides should have the same offensive and defensive options. Making mirror careers closer or identical in strength seems to frighten the developers design aesthetic (sp), but it would lead to a more balanced game for BOTH sides.


lol i love how we're just ignoring this post.
so obviously hasnt played any keep attacks/defense...quite possibly hasnt gotten out of nordenwatch....

have you SEEN how many kills range classes get?
which side has better range....... :rolleyes:

Range = win at range.

melee = win at melee.

big shock :p

[Nirmalti]

Mainly a forum junkie and theory buff here, but wouldn't the class breakdowns kind of refute your point? Let me know if you disagree with any match up, but I think the overall picture is pretty clear. Also, note this list does agree with you on most of your points, but points out the classes you don't bother mentioning (IE all the ones that are better on order)

Short version with explanations to follow:

iron breaker > black orc (debatable)
engineer > magus
rune priest > zealot
witch hunter < witch elf
KotBS > chosen
WP > dok
Bright Wizard > sorc
SM < BG (not much data)
SW < SH
WL < Marauder

6 to 4 advantage order... interesting no?

Longer version with explanations (read at own risk:)

iron breaker is probably a bit better than black orc. They appear to have better damage and cc, if not quite as good of survivability.

engineer better than magus. Throwing arm and auto attack damage make engineers much better ranged dps. Magus rift line is a bit better than the tinkerer line, however.

rune priest better than zealot. Tactics and survivability.

witch hunter less than witch elf, though WH do tend to win heads up fights do to better disarm/parry

KotBS better than chosen, though dire shielding is great in zerg v zerg. This one is a bit early to call, but most chosen look at KotBS abilities and get very jealous

WP better than dok, but both are quite good now. WP is more survivable, more bursty, and simply has better mastery trees. SE regeneration is stronger.

BW better than sorc. Pretty obvious, though sorcs do have some nice group buffs

SM might be weaker than BG, little early to tell yet. I'll give the BG the nod for now though

SW worse than SH, though more able to switch from range to melee

WL worse than Marauder, though very good single target damage and fetch/pounce are quite nice. Marauder just has much better aoe and debuffs

I'm going to disagree with almost all of your comments.

WP better than DoK? What? How are they more survivable? They don't get any abilities that are superior to DoK for survivability. How do they have better mastery trees? The only better one you might argue is Wrath (which no one specs), but I would argue that the other 2 trees are better for DoK. DoK also has FAR better CC than WP. WP

WP have cleansing power which is their strength, while DoK have a ton of great morales.

SW is definitely worse than SH due to ranging issues and the pet.

WL are a 1 trick pony atm (fetch) compared to Marauders well balanced abilities

Engineer better than Magus? I've only ever seen Rift Speced magus, and that is far better than electromagnet spec engineers. So who is truly better? If we were to rank all 6 specs, it would probably go Magus, Eng, Eng, Eng, Magus, Magus. But since the majority of magus are in that #1 spec (which is a Magus issue), I'd argue the other way.

SM is definitely worse than the BG. Primarily due to bugs and hotfixes though. Maybe once they get their parry fixed it could be even.

I will agree with KOTBS versus Chosen. Chosen is currently a 1 trick pony (Dire SHielding)

BW better than Sorc? No longer, no longer. Sorc have better survivability, which adds a lot considering their damages are almost equal.

WH are FAR worse than WE. You don't duel them. You set them in their role; healer killer. WE do it incredibly, WH cannot even kill a zealot.

IB better than BO? I disagree. I see a lot of arguments that IB is too tough, that they don't do enough damage to the IB. But the BO has exactly the same survivability, but it is in heals rather than mitigation. Add BO disorient to constrast IB knockback, and you have a balance.

My rankings:

WE >>> WH

BO = IB

DoK=WP

Sorc= BW

BG > SM

Chosen < KOTBS

SH > SW

Magus >/< Eng (If you aren't speced Rift, you are worse!)

Marauder > WL

Shaman >> AM

[Rimarlk]

Sorry but the comment "the grass is always greener on the other side" needs to be said here.

Before the C and C patch i would say magus/engineer/chosen/squig/SH/chosen

Were the most unpolished classes.

It's nearly a month later and the chosen class is still lame as ever. When i saw the KOTBS tactics i instantly wanted to reroll. A 10% crit group buff and 15% increased healing on ALL party members (chosen can only increase healing by 15%). I would instantly trade ability lists with the KOTBS.

You forgot SM, WL, AM in that list.

[Rimarlk]

Mainly a forum junkie and theory buff here, but wouldn't the class breakdowns kind of refute your point? Let me know if you disagree with any match up, but I think the overall picture is pretty clear. Also, note this list does agree with you on most of your points, but points out the classes you don't bother mentioning (IE all the ones that are better on order)

Short version with explanations to follow:

iron breaker > black orc (debatable)
engineer > magus
rune priest > zealot
witch hunter < witch elf
KotBS > chosen
WP > dok
Bright Wizard > sorc
SM < BG (not much data)
SW < SH
WL < Marauder




Ironbreaker>>Black Guard
Engineer = Magus (maybe slightly better for engi but not much)
Rune Priest > Zealot
Witch Hunter<<Witch Elf
Archmage<<Shaman
Warrior Priest=Disciple of Khaine
Bright Wizard>Sorc
KotBS>Chosen
Sword Master<<<Black Orc(not because the BO is soooo much better but SM is bad.)
Shadow Warrior<Squig Herder
White Lion<Marauder

That's my class comparison. I agree with you on some points, but not on others.

[Darkpheonix]

The mechanics are not what defines the abilities.
Being able to instantly fire off the same ability or having to build up 2 plans is 2 whole different mechanics but the ability could still be the same.

In every game out there, the mechanics are not as different as they are in this game. However, you still compare the classes roles and not their mechanics.
By that im not saying mechanics doesnt influence your performance but when you compare 2 classes you want to compare how well the classes perform their role.

If an IB could outperform an BO in tanking and theyre both main tanks for their faction, then we would have a problem and you wouldnt see that problem if you start comparing to classes with the same mechanics. There is no point in compaing a BO to a class just because the class has the same mechanics if the role is different. A class success is defined on how well they perform their role while their mechanics can have an influence on how well they perform that role.
Once you start meassuring on roles you need to compare them to other classes with the same role.

True which as I see it makes things messy. In my experience with the KotBS coming up I can easily see them becoming the core tank for order. In the right hands they have amazing survivability from my experience (in fact they do have the ability to heal themselves similar to a BO). In that case then you would have to suddenly change the comparison into BO v KotBS. As to knights I really do not believe there is enough data yet to make a full determination yet especially since the general assumption is that now the IB must be the core tank, but I have seen some Knights (mine included, in t3 though) survive as long or longer then a black orc against multiple attackers. It does take sword and board and knowing what your doing but I do believe this is similar to a BO. Then again I always prefer a straight comparison of every single tank together then singling them out because often times there is no clear line in many ways especially when you start talking about specific things like knockdown/knockback, etc.

As to the BG and IB from above the way I see it is they are essentially a zero sum in what they do. The IB buffs 120 toughness the BG removes 120 toughness. Comparing survivability they do fall under an IB, but for what they each do I don't see such a huge seperation.

[HeatPhalanx]

Ironbreaker>>Black Guard
Engineer = Magus (maybe slightly better for engi but not much)
Rune Priest > Zealot
Witch Hunter<<Witch Elf
Archmage<<Shaman
Warrior Priest=Disciple of Khaine
Bright Wizard>Sorc
KotBS>Chosen
Sword Master<<<Black Orc(not because the BO is soooo much better but SM is bad.)
Shadow Warrior<Squig Herder
White Lion<Marauder

That's my class comparison. I agree with you on some points, but not on others.

I'd agree with this with the exception of WL vs Marauder - until spammable Demolition abuse is fixed with a bugfix patch (mind emergency hotfixing this like you destroyed our counter to this particular corking bit of bug abuse which was On Your Guard! please?) and the WL gets a proper AoE tree instead of just being a fetchbot for everyone to assist on, WL << Marauder.

Oh, and DoKs have Universal Confusion.