Ib vs BG ( mirrors ) bg are gimped!

[Farscaoer]

only took CORE! abilties.


IRONBREAKER - BLACKGAURD



http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357 - http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9335
> oathfriend buff bg dont have ( 10 grudge )

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1356 - no mirror skill

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1358 - http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9318
> damage increase by grudge bg dont have

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1364 - http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9316
> oathfriend buff bg dont have - bg have a SMALL healing abilty ( rarely heals over 100 :/ )

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1378 - http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9326
> 1 min cooldown

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1371 - http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9320
> Grude buffs the attack while hate dont buffs

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1365 - http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9328
> 10 sec cd compaired to 20 sec of bg. and the ib abilty always knock away max range while we have to build hate

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1366 - http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9323
> ib has 20 ft / bg has 15 ft and ib also can ignore 100% armor ( hate depending )

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1367 - no mirror skill

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1372 - no mirror skill

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1362 - http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9333
>ends at 15% Ib ends at 20% ( thnx LeviathanXIII (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=56176) )

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1359 -no mirror skill


now u can see how gimped bg are compaired to their mirrors ironbreakers

also.

1. Ironbreakers get their KB at rank : 14
2. Blackgaurds get their KB at rank : 25

note this is only compaired with CORE!! abilties

[kayeffem]

As other destro will say when order question their mirror's abilities:

You cant have a perfectly balanced class or they'd be identical.

[LeviathanXIII]

Going to play devil's advocate here.

First, hate =/= grudge. At all. Blackguard expends hate copiously compared to ironbreaker grudge, and builds it up far faster. They also gain hate by hitting foes, another departure. They also gain hate at a flat rate, not a curve like IB.

Oathfriend is crap. I'm glad blackguards don't have to put up with that nonsense.

Hold the Line is surely a bug, BG is the only one with that cooldown and probably isn't reflective of how the class is meant to be. Hopefully it gets fixed soon.

Monstrous Rending is not much like REA. It has no cooldown, does more base damage (though it does not ignore armor) and it spends hate (hate spending can be reduced with tactics). I do not think they are comparable skills and almost no blackguard will actually accept an argument that MR is a bad skill. I doubt all that many would even be willing to trade it for REA, I sure wouldn't.

Away With Ye is undeniably a better skill than Exile. Only downside to it, however, is that 25 grudge is a pretty big hit to an IB, especially if they're already at 100 grudge due to the curve. A BG can hit 90 hate extremely fast and stay there if they're in defensive mode, so they don't make such a big sacrifice as IB trying to spam AWY which will essentially keep him at low DPS.

I haven't got a clue why you chose Crushing Anger as the mirror to Kneecapper, when it's pretty obviously:

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9333
Slightly less crit reduction at max but debuffs STR and applies a DoT. Not really a bad mirror.

Similarly, you compare Vengeful Strike with Pitiless Strike - which are pretty close to being mirrored skills, but opposites. BG is a debuff. BG has no oathfriend. Isn't this pretty obvious, BG is a more offensive tank (allegedly anyway) and is more focused on screwing with your life and doesn't have friends?

Also:

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9321
Best knockdown in the game. Blackguard only skill. KD>KB anywhere but Tor Anroc.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9334
AoE root. Not awesome since roots got "fixed" but still a pretty fun way to hold someone where they are while you take off and leave them eating dust.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9329
A nightmare for a healer under pressure.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9324
Single target, but do I have to explain why people hate disorients? Yeah, this'll hurt. (note: have heard reports that it's bugged. This is very hard to test. Feedback appreciated if you have been hit with this as Order and confirm it works.)

I don't think blackguard is an overpowered class by a longshot, and in truth there are several needed fixes to the class, especially Hold the Line, and frankly I do think Exile could use a little tweaking since the lower two knockback distances suck hard. If those got buffed I think people would accept the mechanic of this skill better.

Just pointing out some things that need to be said if we're going to have a fair discussion. I've defended witch elves against the claims of being overpowered, so to be fair I also point out that blackguard does not suck as bad as a lot of people think it does.

[Farscaoer]

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9334
AoE root. Not awesome since roots got "fixed" but still a pretty fun way to hold someone where they are while you take off and leave them eating dust.


http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1370

they got the same

[Efertin]

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9321
Best knockdown in the game. Blackguard only skill. KD>KB anywhere but Tor Anroc.


Except it requires a block. Cave-In is a 4 second KD with a big damage component and can be used at will as long as you're wearing a 2h. (Most IB's go for this because of Cave-In) IB's got a 3 or 4s KD which requires a block too, plus a 3s knockdown on a five second cooldown on a str+willpower buffing ability if they've got a tactic equipped.

If BGs should be compared to SMs, considering they're supposed to be role mirrors, I'd say they both are about equally bad as TANKS. Both are decent pseudo-mdps, but in truth they should've rolled mdps anyway.

IBs got about ten times more CC than any tank in the game while ALSO having the best damage out of all tanks. That should be looked at. And BG's PvP _tanking_ ability should be buffed (as should the SMs) ie, giving them some more CC or other tools to protect the squishier peeps.

[amobius]

mechanic mirror =/= role mirror

their mechanics arent even that great of a mirror anyway. Work quite differently

[KatzenKratzen]

Hate is not mirror of Grudge. Hate is an offensive mechanic while grudge is defensive.

[Yavvy]

BG ARE NOT IB MIRRORS!

SM is the BG role mirror, the one that matters. BGs do what an SM does the way an IB would do it. And they rock at it.

[yukishiro1]

The BG is competitive with the SM. Another way of saying that is that they both suck equally compared to the other tanks.

[Lauren Love]

BG ARE NOT IB MIRRORS!

SM is the BG role mirror, the one that matters. BGs do what an SM does the way an IB would do it. And they rock at it.

Quoted for truth.


... and the Blackguard is almost better than the Swordmaster at anti-magic.

[LeviathanXIII]

Except it requires a block. Cave-In is a 4 second KD with a big damage component and can be used at will as long as you're wearing a 2h. (Most IB's go for this because of Cave-In) IB's got a 3 or 4s KD which requires a block too, plus a 3s knockdown on a five second cooldown on a str+willpower buffing ability if they've got a tactic equipped.

If BGs should be compared to SMs, considering they're supposed to be role mirrors, I'd say they both are about equally bad as TANKS. Both are decent pseudo-mdps, but in truth they should've rolled mdps anyway.

IBs got about ten times more CC than any tank in the game while ALSO having the best damage out of all tanks. That should be looked at. And BG's PvP _tanking_ ability should be buffed (as should the SMs) ie, giving them some more CC or other tools to protect the squishier peeps.

The fact that an IB only gets that knockdown while using 2H makes it a dozen times more gimped in my opinion. Why anyone would PREFER not to block 20%+ of all incoming damage is beyond me, but apparently you view that as a positive thing. Not me.

Also, SM and BG are both superior at taking damage to IB (at least, SM was before damage shields were broken, and that will probably get fixed at some point).

Please show me the ten times more CC that IB possess. It would strike me as pretty amazing if IB had over 50 CC abiliities alone. Ah, you exaggerated? Much like the rest of your post? Then how can anyone take this seriously?

[Sinogami]

Quoted for truth.


... and the Blackguard is almost better than the Swordmaster at anti-magic.

The BG is superior in damage compared to an SM as well, I hear they tank better also.

[Efertin]

The fact that an IB only gets that knockdown while using 2H makes it a dozen times more gimped in my opinion. Why anyone would PREFER not to block 20%+ of all incoming damage is beyond me, but apparently you view that as a positive thing. Not me.

Also, SM and BG are both superior at taking damage to IB (at least, SM was before damage shields were broken, and that will probably get fixed at some point).

Please show me the ten times more CC that IB possess. It would strike me as pretty amazing if IB had over 50 CC abiliities alone. Ah, you exaggerated? Much like the rest of your post? Then how can anyone take this seriously?

IB can use a block KD too (like I said, but you decided to ignore it), but most IB's actually go for a 2h in scenarios due to having a 4s single target KD with a short cd and not missing anything due to it (they get a +10% damage and +5% parry with 2h if they decide to spec for it, too), PLUS having a 3s kd at will. IB is the only viable 2h tank right now, because they bring absolutely insane CC with it and keep probably the 2-3rd best PvP survivability while being a 2h tank. (BOs and KotBS are better with a shield)

SM and BG aren't superior to taking damage in PvP, in PvE yes, in PvP, no.

BG's have 3 CC abilities if we don't count snares, but yes, IB's don't have ten times more, it's closer to two or three times more. You can't deny the fact that no tank in this game comes even close to IB in PvP tanking. IB's have access to 3 KD's (4, 3, 3s) (2 at once), 2 KB's one of which is AoE (tied for longest in the game and 2nd longest in the game), a root, the basic tank snare and and two aoe snares (40%, 10s). You can spec to all of them at once. If we should compare them to the BO, well, BO's don't come close either with the CC. If we count morales they bring one single target root with a damage component. (or Champion's Challenge, but the 7s root with damage is way superior) That's 8 different ways to CC (a) target(s) without counting the basic tank snare. They also give huge survivability buffs to their Oathfriend through +25% parry (specced, some/most don't have it), +900 armor (20% melee mitigation) and +400 willpower, +100 toughness, +100 weapon skill and they feed their Oath Friend AP too.

IB's do better damage than SM's and BG's, despite IB's being the "defensive" tank and the SM/BG being the offensive tanks.

SM's and BG's are both bad at anti-magic tanking, it's there only because Mythic really needed a role for the two remaining tanks and they went with anti-magic instead of pseudo-mdps.

[Rakavich]

IB can use a block KD too (like I said, but you decided to ignore it), but most IB's actually go for a 2h in scenarios due to having a 4s single target KD with a short cd and not missing anything due to it (they get a +10% damage and +5% parry with 2h if they decide to spec for it, too), PLUS having a 3s kd at will. IB is the only viable 2h tank right now, because they bring absolutely insane CC with it and keep probably the 2-3rd best PvP survivability while being a 2h tank. (BOs and KotBS are better with a shield)

SM and BG aren't superior to taking damage in PvP, in PvE yes, in PvP, no.

BG's have 3 CC abilities if we don't count snares, but yes, IB's don't have ten times more, it's closer to two or three times more. You can't deny the fact that no tank in this game comes even close to IB in PvP tanking. IB's have access to 3 KD's (4, 3, 3s) (2 at once), 2 KB's one of which is AoE (tied for longest in the game and 2nd longest in the game), a root, the basic tank snare and and two aoe snares (40%, 10s). You can spec to all of them at once. If we should compare them to the BO, well, BO's don't come close either with the CC. If we count morales they bring one single target root with a damage component. (or Champion's Challenge, but the 7s root with damage is way superior) That's 8 different ways to CC (a) target(s) without counting the basic tank snare. They also give huge survivability buffs to their Oathfriend through +25% parry (specced, some/most don't have it), +900 armor (20% melee mitigation) and +400 willpower, +100 toughness, +100 weapon skill and they feed their Oath Friend AP too.

IB's do better damage than SM's and BG's, despite IB's being the "defensive" tank and the SM/BG being the offensive tanks.

SM's and BG's are both bad at anti-magic tanking, it's there only because Mythic really needed a role for the two remaining tanks and they went with anti-magic instead of pseudo-mdps.

Seems someone has IB envy :) and has been looking on WarDB at abilities but not really thinking things through.

You can not get everything you have stated until R40RR70
Damage dealing would be ok to good but your damage soaking would be horrible.
And only +841 armour +408wp +93 Tough +102WS at 100 Grudge but to use all the skills you stated would cost 40 Grudge 70AP and take 7.5 seconds for the buffs alone most requiring to be in melee and 2 of them only last 10s ( 30 grudge for 2 skills for 10s)not including using all this CC you claim some of which is yet more grudge and also uses 2 Tactic slots..
Factor in the Immunity buffs and you have a lot of useless CC at the cost of damage and/or tanking. Buffs not stacking with other buffs, and actually having to have the grudge at 100 and yet using grudge for 4 abilities named you get a lot of impossible or only in best ever conditions theory crafting.

BGs get many more debuffs (some of them being very nasty) than IBs thats not taken into account in you bias statements.

[Efertin]

Seems someone has IB envy :) and has been looking on WarDB at abilities but not really thinking things through.

You can not get everything you have stated until R40RR70
Damage dealing would be ok to good but your damage soaking would be horrible.
And only +841 armour +408wp +93 Tough +102WS at 100 Grudge but to use all the skills you stated would cost 40 Grudge 70AP and take 7.5 seconds for the buffs alone most requiring to be in melee and 2 of them only last 10s ( 30 grudge for 2 skills for 10s)not including using all this CC you claim some of which is yet more grudge and also uses 2 Tactic slots..
Factor in the Immunity buffs and you have a lot of useless CC at the cost of damage and/or tanking. Buffs not stacking with other buffs, and actually having to have the grudge at 100 and yet using grudge for 4 abilities named you get a lot of impossible or only in best ever conditions theory crafting.

BGs get many more debuffs (some of them being very nasty) than IBs thats not taken into account in you bias statements.

You can, you don't even need RR40. http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=1#11:2688:0:0:9:640:25::1407:1408:1 410::::1418 I said most IB's don't spec for the +25% parry. (higher ranked ones drop greataxe mastery and go for it instead though, most of the time what I've seen anyway).

Grudge is not a problem with Guard+Oathfriend. Most of your CC is on different immunity timers, and you can use your CC on more than one target at a time.

It's not "IB envy" (well, a bit), it's just a fact that IB's are leaps and bounds ahead of other tanks in PvP. But hey, it's always bias unless you're talking about a dest class if your main is a dest or the other way around.


I won't even comment on the debuffs because the few debuffs IB's get are way superior to BG debuffs. (-75% armor, punishing blow, -20% crit) Only exception is the BG's disorient, which is really good, but way worse than say, 75% armor debuff.

Using the lovable phrase; IB's should be compared to BO's because they're role mirrors!!111oneoneoneone, and IB's are way ahead of BO's in everything except damage soaking. (Which only works against retarded people who like to bash a tank which is a total non-factor unless it's an IB)

But well, because I'm totally biased, I don't know anything about IB's because I haven't got one at level 40 and Ironbreakers are probably way underpowered in truth I probably shouldn't talk. ;)

[Dizkzak]

The BG is superior in damage compared to an SM as well, I hear they tank better also.

You heard way wrong. WAY. SM does way better RvR dmg(spirit) and tanks infinitely better than the BG. No doubt in my mind the BG is by far the weakest tank in the game. My crew does not even recruit them when a BO is always a better choice.

[Lauren Love]

The BG is superior in damage compared to an SM as well, I hear they tank better also.

No. Not even close.

The swordmaster is a VERY survivable tank when specced into Vaul. VERY.

[Foofmonger]

No. Not even close.

The swordmaster is a VERY survivable tank when specced into Vaul. VERY.

As is either an Anguish/Loathing or Loathing/Anguish BG (i.e whether you want 30% disrupt or 30% parry tactic).

[Raxxman]

Additionally SMs buffers took a massive nerf.

They're not that good at survivability anymore tbh.

[Teviko]

Ironbreakers are our career mirror, SM are our role mirrors.

And frankly, compared to a SM, my sword and board Blackguard is vastly superior to a SM. The only difference in the fight is KB. He can knock me around all willy-woo and by the time I get back to him, he does something that gains him the upper hand, for the life of me, I dunno the SM builds/core abilities, so I have no clue.

I will *always* win, even on my S/B BG, against an ironbreaker. They just don't have what it takes to kill me, unless I'm solo and he has a healer. Then I can beat on him, or his RP all day long, and nothing. But 1v1, I will always win.

I do not think we should be comparing base/core abilities to the IB, or to the SM. What we do, works, and any BG worth his/her weight in gold will do so very well. Even though I am not spec'ced for DPS, I can still make a very threatening ally. I'm harder than nails to kill and wickedly effective in pinning down casters/healers and ripping them apart.

Please, I do not think that, as a whole, we are anywhere near *fixed*, but if you compare us to other tanks, of course we will seem like we are a gimped class. Only by comparison, mind you. I think we blackguards are awesome, and if Hold the Line ever gets fixed, we will be even better.

(Oh, and you do realize, you can't activate any other ability while Holding the Line? I don't see why you'd do this for any other reason that placing guard on a healer and holdign the line and giving them some added protection. Otherwise, its great for Keep Breaks too)

Again, as a BG, I think we are fine.

[blurps]

Both sides have two strong tanks ( IB and KotBS vs. BO and Chosen ) and one perceived underpowered one ( SM vs. BG ).

The main issue with SM being non existant group synergy past the archetype abilities and the BG's one being late blooming. Chosens need somewhat of a PvE boost, but that's rather irrelevant to the discussion.

Don't see an issue here, except for the people playing SM/BG with expectations different from the current game reality. Realmwise it's completely balanced, excluding the current Baneshield issue which clearly can't be intended considering OYG got nerfed very quickly.

[xDeathx]

BG ARE NOT IB MIRRORS!

SM is the BG role mirror, the one that matters. BGs do what an SM does the way an IB would do it. And they rock at it.


Another QFT.

This thread should be purged.

[Qualum]

I see a lot of BGs complaining about IBs. We have any complaints going the other way because from the looks of it the BG lines look much more versatile?

[PhoenixRed]

This really isn't going anywhere productive.