Direction of the Swordmaster

[Shadowstorm]

With the recent change to damage shields, I think it's safe to say sword masters are at a seriously disadvantaged position. Reviewing the strengths and roles displayed by the sword master, I realized they don't really stand out as performing a stellar, appreciable job that contributes to the war effort at large.

Ironbreakers are excellent guards, having the most means with which to defend at least one, if not more, allies from harm long enough for them to do what needs to be done. Knights of the Blazing Sun are useful support tanks, providing aura buffs to their allies and debuffing their enemies at the same time allowing greater longevity en masse.

So where does that leave sword masters? Well, if we are to glean an idea from things such as their mirror the black orc and early game designs, sword masters are built to be shock troops, charging the enemy line full tilt and creating the havok and discord needed for the other melee to work. Now, if we take the previous shock troop idea for granted, there are two things sword masters need to perform that job-superior survival techniques, and respectable damage. Survival to bridge the no-mans land and get in to the opposing sides lines, and damage to soften up that line and pose a threat when they get there.

First, the means of survival. The vaul tree was supposed to epitomize this aspect with both an excellent tactic and a natural buff to phantom blade. However, with the change to damage shields, this means of survival has become vastly sub-par. This change must be reverted if sword masters are to be comprable tanks again.

Secondly, damage. As it stands, not only do sword masters not take a hit as well as their "orky" counterparts, they also don't dish it out as well either. There are several contributing factors to this, but the largest I think is the black orc tactic "Stab you gooder." 50% larger crits is a tremendous contributing factor to burst damage and taking down targets, and no such tactic exists for sword masters. In addition to changing some useless or redundant tactics and increasing secondary effect durations (IE eagles flight/dragon talon), changing some itemization to allow for more strength would go a long way toward making sword masters a force to be reckoned with.

[Tak'zenen]

Same goes for Chosen. Welcome to the land of suck.


We still look cool though =D

[Marklarg]

I'm surprised at the amount of people, healers, blackguards, and even fellow swordmasters that don't even know about the under-the-table absorb nerf.

Our absorb shields are absolute trash now. Worthless.

This makes our survivability a joke in comparison to other defensive tanks.

Offensively swordmasters have it going on IMO. Just need tactics like BA working correctly and not having our stances reset and bug out for no reason.

Right now swordmasters are hoeth/khaine or khaine/hoeth. Vaul is a joke. We aren't tanks right now, think of ourselves as armored DPS till shields are fixed.

[Ashonic]

Agreed, and yes....welcome to the land of teh suck.
Us Chosen and you SM's should all get together and attack paul till he de-shelves us.

however, id like to point out.....your mirror may be the Black Ork, but thats not your role mirror.


your role mirror is the BG. on the battlefield you and BG's should be doing the same thing.

[CrimsonAngel]

Agreed, and yes....welcome to the land of teh suck.
Us Chosen and you SM's should all get together and attack paul till he de-shelves us.

however, id like to point out.....your mirror may be the Black Ork, but thats not your role mirror.


your role mirror is the BG. on the battlefield you and BG's should be doing the same thing.

Kind of off-topic.
Actually Chosen is one of the more feared tanks to be up against if my Guild mates are to be believed.
The BO can take a lot of damage, but they are kind of weak when it comes to damage.
The BG is kind of nasty, but over all way to soft to be a threat most of the time now if you are a caster they can wreak havoc on you any thing else they kind of suck at killing.
The Chosen is hard to kill and can damage pretty well so they are a great threat on the field.

As a knight and WP the Chosen is the only tank that can give me problems to kill the others are small fry.

Now to get back on topic
The Sword master have gotten to a point it cant really be used as main tank any more and with the knight arriving it's gotten moved even further back into the tanking line.

The IB is still the king of the king of tanking, but the Knight is a great main and secondary tank and that leaves the SM somewhere as the "okay bring a SM if we can get no one else" position of the tanks.

[KatzenKratzen]

Same goes for Chosen. Welcome to the land of suck.


We still look cool though =D
I lol'd. Chosen in the land of suck... I am afraid to imagine Chosen in the land of teh Own if he is now in the land of the suck.

[Tak'zenen]

One ability that lets us sit there and be basically buff bots.


Hurr-ray.

The ignorance towards the Chosen class and how they work on an entirety on these forums is amazing. Level a Chosen beyond T3, and you'll know what it's like to style on an IB for 37 damage.

[Arianell]

Everything is all off.



Healers are making horrible renown and XP, even when working their tail off.



Tanks don't really have a solid place in the game, unless it's PvE or you're an Ironbreaker in Tor Anroc. Otherwise, you're fodder for RDPS to feast on, and past T2 little more than an irritation to shrug off with a few HoTs.



CC locks down combat: whoever has the most CC wins.



Tanks that were already meh or so-so (Swordmasters and Blackguards, I'm talking about you) got an under-the-table nerf to their survivability and functionality...



RDPS can throw a few DoTs on everything, not really (truly) contribute to a fight, and make the top XP and Renown, opposed to the MDPS or RDPS that was taking down targets strategically through focus-fire.


What's going on?

Let's add to this list:



RvR reward incentives, while bolstered, still feel alittle off-track.



Did I mention CC and how unplayable and not fun it makes this game?



Keep designs make taking a defended keep with anything short of your l33t, on-timed Guild-Ventrilo synced group impossible.


I really love this game. I really do, and despite the nerf to a healer's benefits, I still find a thrill in playing my DoK to her absolute limit and winning a game because I can keep my team alive long enough to do something. But I temporarily shelved my Witch Elf because the CC is frustrating. ... Very frustrating.

[Ellessidil]

Agreed, and yes....welcome to the land of teh suck.
Us Chosen and you SM's should all get together and attack paul till he de-shelves us.

however, id like to point out.....your mirror may be the Black Ork, but thats not your role mirror.


your role mirror is the BG. on the battlefield you and BG's should be doing the same thing.

This.

BO shares our mechanic, but BG shares our role. Granted we were changed some upon release to fix the fact that we were going to have only one heavy mitigation tank and one avoidance/dps tank on release, which fubar'ed some of the flow behind that.

[Ashonic]

One ability that lets us sit there and be basically buff bots.


Hurr-ray.

The ignorance towards the Chosen class and how they work on an entirety on these forums is amazing. Level a Chosen beyond T3, and you'll know what it's like to style on an IB for 37 damage.


i know this is still off topic.... but dont you love applying Touch of Palsy to an IB? :D


anyway....


<3 for Sm's.

[KatzenKratzen]

One ability that lets us sit there and be basically buff bots.

Hurr-ray.

The ignorance towards the Chosen class and how they work on an entirety on these forums is amazing. Level a Chosen beyond T3, and you'll know what it's like to style on an IB for 37 damage.
Yeah, OK, mate. Whatever you say. Chosen is the worst tank on the planet, White Lion can tank better than chosen. Chosen have only one single ability and should be buffed to deal 38.5 damage on IB.

[Tak'zenen]

Yeah, OK, mate. Whatever you say. Chosen is the worst tank on the planet, White Lion can tank better than chosen. Chosen have only one single ability and should be buffed to deal 38.5 damage on IB.


Not sure where you're getting that from. I'll just notch it up there with further ignorance of this class.

And as far as keep takes go, Chosen have 1 ability that has to be specced into that makes them useful in keep takes.

And yeah, it would be nice to hit harder than 37 damage on an Ironbreaker. But, baby steps.

[CorumSM]

Not sure where you're getting that from. I'll just notch it up there with further ignorance of this class.

And as far as keep takes go, Chosen have 1 ability that has to be specced into that makes them useful in keep takes.

And yeah, it would be nice to hit harder than 37 damage on an Ironbreaker. But, baby steps.

Corrupting Horror is pretty darn effective too ;)
Throw in some lag and it's a killer.

As for the SM, yeh its screwed as a tank unless they reverse the bubble nerf.
I've persisted with it as I really like the class but maybe it's time to roll a real tank :confused:

[HandsomeJakky]

Ask youself, what's the point in mythic catering to a minority when Witch Elves have so many bugged abilities? I swear those poor little things can barely get out of the warcamp these days without a (disciple of) Khaine, so to all you selfish Swordmasters out there who want your class to 'work' or be 'fixed' Shame on you! It's like you all want to go back to maintanking Lost Vale or being 'effective' in scenario play...For Shame!

[Tak'zenen]

Corrupting Horror is pretty darn effective too ;)
Throw in some lag and it's a killer.

As for the SM, yeh its screwed as a tank unless they reverse the bubble nerf.
I've persisted with it as I really like the class but maybe it's time to roll a real tank :confused:


Not very affective in the majority of a keep take due to it's 30 ft range ;)

[Korhian]

Apparently Mythic loves SM dots, since we have as many as we have. Along time ago we were antimages with both whispering wind and crushing wave as core abilities. Not anymore, now we have dots and TWO healing tactics that arent even worth one tactic slot.
Seriously I dont really care if the BO and SM doent really share the same roll in theory, in practice the BO sure does make it look like it actually wants to be an offensive antimage alot more then SM. SMs are an offensive magical light tank without the tactics to actually pull it off imo.

And regarding chosen, well I would rather meet a chosen then meet an BO...and yeah Chosen do indeed look cooler then us SMs.:cry: Were Mythic mistreated son.

[jdela13]

I'm surprised at the amount of people, healers, blackguards, and even fellow swordmasters that don't even know about the under-the-table absorb nerf.

Our absorb shields are absolute trash now. Worthless.

This makes our survivability a joke in comparison to other defensive tanks.

Offensively swordmasters have it going on IMO. Just need tactics like BA working correctly and not having our stances reset and bug out for no reason.

Right now swordmasters are hoeth/khaine or khaine/hoeth. Vaul is a joke. We aren't tanks right now, think of ourselves as armored DPS till shields are fixed.

I've respecced yet again to Khaine/Hoeth, but why? I should just roll a WL who survives about as well as a Khaine/Hoeth SM but has much better ability to burst down a target. I'm good at AoE PQ inf farming though, too bad I have no use for it at rank 40.

[Onslaught411]

One ability that lets us sit there and be basically buff bots.


Hurr-ray.

The ignorance towards the Chosen class and how they work on an entirety on these forums is amazing. Level a Chosen beyond T3, and you'll know what it's like to style on an IB for 37 damage.

I've fought some absolutely badass chosen (the ones who MT lost vale and have near full invader etc) and they laugh at all these posts about Chosen sucking. Learn to min/max and your class wouldn't be so bad.

[KatzenKratzen]

Not sure where you're getting that from. I'll just notch it up there with further ignorance of this class.

And as far as keep takes go, Chosen have 1 ability that has to be specced into that makes them useful in keep takes.

And yeah, it would be nice to hit harder than 37 damage on an Ironbreaker. But, baby steps.
Sorry, but I don't need to know the bright knowledge of chosen class to say that when Chosen (especially a geared one, not in full vanguard) comes into play the situation will change for my team. And when a Swordmaster is in our team I know that he won't make much of a difference. Would you prefer having 10 close-to-useless abilities or 2 really powerful ones?

[Shadowstorm]

One mention of chosen who are in bad gear+one mention of black guards being the SM mirror and the post goes to hell in a handbasket.

First off chosen can do rather well when geared properly and supported, just as a tank really should. Secondly that isn't the point of this at all, so take your complaints to a thread about chosen instead of one about sword masters.

And now I defy anyone in this forum to show me proof that would suggest black guards are the sword masters "role mirror." Sword masters have absolutely 0 anti-magic capability, whereas black guards have an entire mastery path devoted to it. In fact, I would go so far as to say sword masters are a pro-magic tank, debuffing enemy resistances for the magic classes to hit harder. However there is PLENTY proof that the black orc is the mirror to the sword master. Just take a look at almost any ability either one has. The other more than likely has it too, only changed ever so slightly to fit their classes flavor.

I really don't care what mythic says we're supposed to do, as it's the tools they give us to do a job with that shows what our role is. If we're SUPPOSED to be anti-magic, where's our mind killer? Where's the healing debuff? Why don't we have a silence? Why don't we have huge burst damage to drop casters quickly?

As I said, mythic may have said once before launch that black guards and sword masters were anti magic tanks, but I've yet to see one shred of evidence supporting that.

[Xae]

I've fought some absolutely badass chosen (the ones who MT lost vale and have near full invader etc) and they laugh at all these posts about Chosen sucking. Learn to min/max and your class wouldn't be so bad.
When you have a set of gear two-three 'tiers' higher than everyone else, it is pretty easy to be badass. Every tank is good with a dedicated support team, hell every class is good with a dedicated support team.

The bubble nerf makes sense on the 'macro' level, SM and Blackguard bubbles just need to be increased to compensate for the mitigation loss, or moved to their own mechanic that allows mitigation.

[Seldoran]

The Swordmaster is a DPS Tank without the capability to DPS or really Tank in RvR. We lack Spirit DPS based classes so a large portion of our resist debuff is wasted. Tank wise, we can't use a Two Hander as our flavor dictates because once we run out of AP we get slaughtered. We also lack protective abilities.

Suggestions:

Regarding DPS "Shock Trooper"
Extend "Wall of Darting Steel" to also protect adjacent allies (5 to 10 feet, 15 ideally) but increase AP cost by, say, 10% for each ally protected this way.

"Blurring Shock" to provide a small AoE damage (10%-15% of the main target damage) and debuff to targets adjacent to the main target (5-10 feet)

"Wrath of Hoeth" changed to: Reduces all resistances by (About 50% of what it is now) ~or~ Reduced damage, no resist debuff, and places a 3 second duration, 1 second Disorient on all affected enemies.

Regarding Tank
A Tactic that allows us to make use of the Iconic Elven Greatsword, namely by giving Block Rating based on the DPS of the weapon in question. To compensate, this tactic would also provide a damage penalty.

Fixing Phantom Blade so it doesn't fail on a level of unprecedented proportion. (Someone in another thread suggested "Mythic Fail")

"Quick Incision" also crippling targets adjancent to the main target.

"Dazzling Strike" disorient removed, instead providing a 2 second disable.

[thegrifter]

There are few SM on Dark Crag that routinely place near the top for DPS in scenarios. Obviously they don't put out BW/Eng damage, but they usually put out around 130k or so.

[Seldoran]

There are few SM on Dark Crag that routinely place near the top for DPS in scenarios. Obviously they don't put out BW/Eng damage, but they usually put out around 130k or so.

The most important distinction one can make are in the terms DPS and Damage.

DPS: The amount of damage going out per second.
Damage: The amount of damage that went out.

Swordmasters have pretty poor DPS, for the archetype role they seem to fill of the "Assault Tank" and coupled with poor survivability while trying to fill said role.

[gorefist]

With the recent change to damage shields, I think it's safe to say sword masters are at a seriously disadvantaged position. Reviewing the strengths and roles displayed by the sword master, I realized they don't really stand out as performing a stellar, appreciable job that contributes to the war effort at large.

Ironbreakers are excellent guards, having the most means with which to defend at least one, if not more, allies from harm long enough for them to do what needs to be done. Knights of the Blazing Sun are useful support tanks, providing aura buffs to their allies and debuffing their enemies at the same time allowing greater longevity en masse.

So where does that leave sword masters? Well, if we are to glean an idea from things such as their mirror the black orc and early game designs, sword masters are built to be shock troops, charging the enemy line full tilt and creating the havok and discord needed for the other melee to work. Now, if we take the previous shock troop idea for granted, there are two things sword masters need to perform that job-superior survival techniques, and respectable damage. Survival to bridge the no-mans land and get in to the opposing sides lines, and damage to soften up that line and pose a threat when they get there.

First, the means of survival. The vaul tree was supposed to epitomize this aspect with both an excellent tactic and a natural buff to phantom blade. However, with the change to damage shields, this means of survival has become vastly sub-par. This change must be reverted if sword masters are to be comprable tanks again.

Secondly, damage. As it stands, not only do sword masters not take a hit as well as their "orky" counterparts, they also don't dish it out as well either. There are several contributing factors to this, but the largest I think is the black orc tactic "Stab you gooder." 50% larger crits is a tremendous contributing factor to burst damage and taking down targets, and no such tactic exists for sword masters. In addition to changing some useless or redundant tactics and increasing secondary effect durations (IE eagles flight/dragon talon), changing some itemization to allow for more strength would go a long way toward making sword masters a force to be reckoned with.

i have to say this.. sword masters are the best order dps tanks the reason why i say this is the admout of sprit damage they do with each blow.. i dont think any tank/mdps in that matter stacks enuff sprit resitance to do much of a impact on them.. like black gaurd there more filled doing a dps roll tank wise.. magic shileds being nerfed is not much of a problem in my view.. since players like all ways will learn to adapt or reroll..

and as it goes for orcs doing more dps than a dps speced sword master you really dont know what your on about..i dont know why order are all ways whineing now a days there classes are fine learn to adapt or dont play.. and as it goes for chosen saying there class sucks.. just reroll

[PHInnocent]

I really don't care what mythic says we're supposed to do, as it's the tools they give us to do a job with that shows what our role is. If we're SUPPOSED to be anti-magic, where's our mind killer? Where's the healing debuff? Why don't we have a silence? Why don't we have huge burst damage to drop casters quickly
We have silence: Whispering Wind (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9030)

We have ability to shatter blessing: Shatter Enchantment

They just failed creating SM, maybe we get some love later on... maybe

[Seldoran]

i have to say this.. sword masters are the best order dps tanks the reason why i say this is the admout of sprit damage they do with each blow.. i dont think any tank/mdps in that matter stacks enuff sprit resitance to do much of a impact on them.. like black gaurd there more filled doing a dps roll tank wise.. magic shileds being nerfed is not much of a problem in my view.. since players like all ways will learn to adapt or reroll..

and as it goes for orcs doing more dps than a dps speced sword master you really dont know what your on about..i dont know why order are all ways whineing now a days there classes are fine learn to adapt or dont play.. and as it goes for chosen saying there class sucks.. just reroll

When's the last time you saw someone running from a Swordmaster? Do you worry about how much spirit damage a Swordmaster is going to hit you for? I think on the average black orc, my Blurring Shock hits them for less than 5% of their health. How scary.

Do you know how squishy we are by comparison to most tanks? Do you know how much support ability we lack to protect the team, the whole idea of the Archetype "Tank"?

Maybe if my Archetype read "Melee DPS" I'd be complaining about damage instead of how little I can do to keep people from beating on my team mates.

[gorefist]

When's the last time you saw someone running from a Swordmaster? Do you worry about how much spirit damage a Swordmaster is going to hit you for? I think on the average black orc, my Blurring Shock hits them for less than 5% of their health. How scary.

Do you know how squishy we are by comparison to most tanks? Do you know how much support ability we lack to protect the team, the whole idea of the Archetype "Tank"?

Maybe if my Archetype read "Melee DPS" I'd be complaining about damage instead of how little I can do to keep people from beating on my team mates.

oh i have seen it quite a few times on karak norn.. maybe your not stacking your gear right but who knows? because i have seen sword masters easly hiting 900.1k cirtal strike.. with great swords.. and some times more than that.

and as it goes for pure defence tanking there still quite good so i dont know what your whine is about..

learn to adapt or reroll

-gorefist

[Redurval]

And I see Blorcs regularly do 2k crits each other swing. See? More dmg. You should definitely reroll, because you can't play!

[halzet]

oh i have seen it quite a few times on karak norn.. maybe your not stacking your gear right but who knows? because i have seen sword masters easly hiting 900.1k cirtal strike.. with great swords.. and some times more than that.

and as it goes for pure defence tanking there still quite good so i dont know what your whine is about..

learn to adapt or reroll

-gorefist

Those swordmasters hitting for 900 will be stacked to the max with strength, which a BOrc could do quite easily, and with their extra crit damage tactic. A KotBS and an Ironbreaker could also do it easily, and to better effect. Anyway, as he mentioned. We are not MDPS. Damage is not how Mythic described us, nor what our archetype tells us to do.

As for still quite good at tanking? Still quite good with 'what'? Our 3 absorb shields (1 and a half mastery trees) were our tanking. Unless you're talking about our armour buff, and an ability that buffs armour (which doesn't stack) and provides +5% block. That is it.

Yes, we're better than say, a bright wizard. But anything else with a shield? Pft.

[HandsomeJakky]

i have to say this.. sword masters are the best order dps tanks the reason why i say this is the admout of sprit damage they do with each blow.. i dont think any tank/mdps in that matter stacks enuff sprit resitance to do much of a impact on them.. like black gaurd there more filled doing a dps roll tank wise.. magic shileds being nerfed is not much of a problem in my view.. since players like all ways will learn to adapt or reroll..

and as it goes for orcs doing more dps than a dps speced sword master you really dont know what your on about..i dont know why order are all ways whineing now a days there classes are fine learn to adapt or dont play.. and as it goes for chosen saying there class sucks.. just reroll

At Level 40 on a typical pvp hit I do about 150 pts of damage to a tank, 250 to a squishie and maybe 400 to a naked person or on a crit on a squishie if I have Blurring Shocked em recently.

You don't play A Sword Master, I do, I don't play a Black Orc, yet I'm not in your forum talking about how OP your ability Da' Toughest is because no way in hell mythic will fix it they need your mothers' money. Seems like your just here to troll anyways.

Talk in your own forum please or say something constructive, until then be ignored because your a D-bag who knows nothing of what you speak.

[Xae]

At Level 40 on a typical pvp hit I do about 150 pts of damage to a tank, 250 to a squishie and maybe 400 to a naked person or on a crit on a squishie if I have Blurring Shocked em recently.

You don't play A Sword Master, I do, I don't play a Black Orc, yet I'm not in your forum talking about how OP your ability Da' Toughest is because no way in hell mythic will fix it they need your mothers' money. Seems like your just here to troll anyways.

Talk in your own forum please or say something constructive, until then be ignored because your a D-bag who knows nothing of what you speak.

'da Toughest is only overpowered 1v1, which the game is explicitly not balanced for. 100 HP/S is not going to save anyone from an assist train.

[Seldoran]

Don't forget the extra 160 wounds that definitely helps from an assist train.

[Xae]

Don't forget the extra 160 wounds that definitely helps from an assist train.

Helps them live what? 1 second longer?

[Seldoran]

Given the sheer amount of damage mitigation a Black Orc has, I hope it's more than one second. We're talking real Black orcs. Not the Two hander wannabes. (Which are still somewhat more viable than a two handing Swordmaster. /sadface )

[Tak'zenen]

At Level 40 on a typical pvp hit I do about 150 pts of damage to a tank, 250 to a squishie and maybe 400 to a naked person or on a crit on a squishie if I have Blurring Shocked em recently.

.


God, I hear you there. It's so depressing styling clothies for 200 damage, and hitting IBs for maybe 97 dmg, but then they turn around and hit me for 700.

I imagine a Borc can do the same to you guys. It's the worst feeling in the world. Well, maybe not really, but still kinda WTF moment.

[CorumSM]

SMs 'direction' is now obvious as only the really viable path is as a lightly armored class with mediocre dps. If you want to be a solid s/b tank it is the worst one in the game.

Already a very broken class and considered weak by a lot of people it's tanking tree (Vaul) it is now nerfed to oblivion (bubble nerf confirmed as working as intended by Mythic).

Basically Order now has only two tank classes.
RIP Vaul Swordmaster :confused:

[jdela13]

oh i have seen it quite a few times on karak norn.. maybe your not stacking your gear right but who knows? because i have seen sword masters easly hiting 900.1k cirtal strike.. with great swords.. and some times more than that.

and as it goes for pure defence tanking there still quite good so i dont know what your whine is about..

learn to adapt or reroll

-gorefist

I hate to say it, but play a Swordmaster. How many times have game changes forced you to respec? What's more is that you do not understand that even abilities that would seemingly help our tanking ability have a ludicrously short duration. You have the same mechanic as us, so that you know. Now image having a buff that basically only lasts until the next time you get to your second stance. Imagine that the skill that creates that buff is in the second stance. Imagine having to spam one damn ability over and over again to get said buff. Imagine having only one really useful first stance ability. So yeah I guess a SM can tank now still, I just have to remove all of my abilities except for 3 from my hotbar. Oh wait our defensive tactics are bugged too because we drop out of perfect stance too quick and our multi hit attacks drops us to normal stance right away.

SMs have learned to adapt farily well. Please read the SM forum in its entirety to get an idea of what the class has done to adapt and make the best of it. I am contemplating rerolling, just hate to have wasted my time. I hope for you that your class never gets to experience this, but if it ever does I will be there to support it like I was for SH and Magus (who still seem to need a bit of help).

[LowTwo]

Well first off i hope you SM get some loving cus they dont seem to care so much for some tanks. Out of the 3 order tanks out there in order of difficulty to kill i would say IB-KotBS-SM. IB imo are to strong vs melee compared to others Knight seems rather fine and SM(also hardly see any) are just not working out.

This comes from a chosen who wants to add we are fine at certain points. I dont complain about the dmg i can pump out with a 2h(got anni/sent and some quest weapons). When switching to 1h and shield i do feel my survivability is less then some other tanks with 1h and shield. I blame this mostly to not having any skills that benefit from the use of a shield so besides the block and extra stats we dont gain much from using it.

But enough hyjacking. Back to giving love to the SM.

[Strexx]

SMs are dead damn Mythic

First class to catch my attention in a long while the description was just what I was looking for.

What a dissappointment what train wreck of an archetype Since they nerfed bubbles I don't expect they have a real understanding of the class and it massive shortcomings.

RIP swordmasters and thanks Mythic

[Marsares]

I don't play a SM, nor do I have intimate knowledge of them. However, I can share some "anecdotal" evidence of the class.

We, the Lost Guard of Tor Anroc, are a high-elf only class. At launch of the game, SM's were the most popular class in our guild, by far. People simply love the concept of a HE tank that can do a bit of damage as well. Needless to say, since then the number of SM's has been dwindling steadily and we now find that it's one of the least played class amongst new recruits. Everyone knows the SM is a sub-par tank and that it was in serious troubles before the bubble-nerf, and now it has become a non-viable tank.

Come to that, it's clear that High Elves were last on the list of Developers. WL is one of the least played classes and although it can still be scary in MDPS, it truly shines when its Loner spec (go figure, a pet-class that performs better without pet).

The AM is a reasonable healer, but the high magic mechanic is utterly useless as it relies on a cycle of damage-healing, whilst the damage spells are not worth their salt in higher tiers. On top of that, it has the worst survivability of any healer whilst it stands out like a sore thumb on the battlefield. It's basically free kills. I shelved mine until it doesn't get ripped apart by any WE or other MDPS class in seconds.

The SW is now a reasonably good class, as long as you spec Assault. Skirmish is viable, but it dishes out below par AOE which a BW can do much better. Scout is a one-trick pony reliant on so many things going right in a few seconds that almost all the planets have to align before you crit FA. Try doing that in oRvR with MDPS running haywire around you.

The SM needs some love. It's the weakest tank in the game and has no clear role. The bubble-nerf affects many classes, but SM is extremely dependant on them.

Once they fix that one, they can fix the rest of the HE's as well hopefully.

[silvertemplar]

To those bright sparks in here saying how much Chosen sucks, i DARE you to play an SM and try to fight Destruction with 2-3 Chosens in their rank, while you, the SM charge.

The most freaking annoying thing on the bloody planet comes from the Chosen and it's our wonderful friend called QUAKE .

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8349 . Yea, that's right a freakin AOE Knockdown. 2s might not sound like much, but sure as hell totally screw any kind of frontline manouvre Order attempts.

Now comes the next ability that totally screws over the entire Order Melee wall, again from our friend the Chosen, and it's called : CORRUPTING HORROR

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8345 . Yea, another AOE Disorient. You know what 0.5s does to instant cast abilities [yea EVERY SM ability in other words] ? It breaks them.

I'm not even gonna mention things like Bane Shield [does spirit damage] and Touch of Palsy.

I mean seriously, a Chosen can mess entire Order Zergs UP, it's not even funny. What exactly can a SM do? AOE Knockback...whoopdee doo (which is impossible to pull off once a Chosen with the disorient aura comes near you , mind you).

[Riadh]

I really don't understand why everyone is whining about SMs. Yes they're not really deftanks but they are really good in offensive. I'd play anyday with a SM in group instead of an IB.
SMs are really great assistleader for crushing enemy support. I'm running with one in my group and he's allways top3 on any dmgcharts + killingblows....what do you want more?

[Noran]

First SM's do need some love! Hug em when you see a one they are really dimishing in numbers.

Then the other stuff, generally aiming at OP post and idea behind it.

SM and Chosen both are in this situation together to have had a direct line in paper and in beta 'how to fit in to the tank ranks and what is their role'. Since last moments of beta was it 2-3 weeks before release something happened at Mythic's corner and some changes where applied on 'atleast' these two classes and their 'role and place' blurred alot by sheer changes in mechanics and gameplay generally.
SM's got really the short end of the stick with 'bubble' nerf, but nerf had to be done due certain 'unwanted features' where found from other classes working together, that was somehow unseen or ignored at beta test - dont ask me why but it just did so.:confused:

Since paper&pen and beta Many classes have 'principle' ideas and roles have twindled and changed (DoK+WP kinda got the hugest one up to date) and certain aspect of many classes went online without 'great testing' (well this has happened to all MMO's since launch - Not to even comapre to WoW =) ) So what was on pen&paper has come out totally differently, because some items combined with certain specc and buffs do change and are totally unpredictable at pen&paper, and Mythic probably is currently seewing 'this new game of theirs' that looks like the old pen+paper modeled, but players have turned totally upside down and in soem class case playing the class totally upside down that Mythic even dreamed.

So all in all shortly said, Kneejerk reaction fixing and patching is unavoidable and Some baseline defining class role-mechanic are broken, it's literally just how games are created and different companies do work differently and WAR still far under 1y from release so I wouldnt damn any class's change to be rock solid nor any change to be held as final. ((uuh give em time to figure out which way the next 'tiny' fix will toss the players to act.))

EDIT: sorry about the bad lanquage .. im little in rush.. I hope you get the points still

[Xae]

To those bright sparks in here saying how much Chosen sucks, i DARE you to play an SM and try to fight Destruction with 2-3 Chosens in their rank, while you, the SM charge.

The most freaking annoying thing on the bloody planet comes from the Chosen and it's our wonderful friend called QUAKE .

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8349 . Yea, that's right a freakin AOE Knockdown. 2s might not sound like much, but sure as hell totally screw any kind of frontline manouvre Order attempts.

Now comes the next ability that totally screws over the entire Order Melee wall, again from our friend the Chosen, and it's called : CORRUPTING HORROR

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8345 . Yea, another AOE Disorient. You know what 0.5s does to instant cast abilities [yea EVERY SM ability in other words] ? It breaks them.

I'm not even gonna mention things like Bane Shield [does spirit damage] and Touch of Palsy.

I mean seriously, a Chosen can mess entire Order Zergs UP, it's not even funny. What exactly can a SM do? AOE Knockback...whoopdee doo (which is impossible to pull off once a Chosen with the disorient aura comes near you , mind you).

A half second disorient does nothing to most melee classes.

There is a 1.3 second Global cooldown.
1.3 - .5 = .8 All your abilities are still firing inside of the global cooldown.

[silvertemplar]

A half second disorient does nothing to most melee classes.

There is a 1.3 second Global cooldown.
1.3 - .5 = .8 All your abilities are still firing inside of the global cooldown.

Yes, until they start to stack 'em. I have never seen a Destro Zerg without a Chosen and a Marauder stacking these. Add to that, no immunity timer on disorients, and you can basically do this forever.

I would gladly exchange my SM's AOE knockback for the Chosen's AOE Disorient of theirs [that you believe does nothing to melee] . I rather disorient a bunch of WEs [and remove alot of the Auto Attack damage] than knock them around. In fact as the supposed anti-magic tank, this is exactly what SM should have had instead of the AOE KB ;).

[CorumSM]

A half second disorient does nothing to most melee classes.

There is a 1.3 second Global cooldown.
1.3 - .5 = .8 All your abilities are still firing inside of the global cooldown.

I beg to differ.

It is more than 0.5 seconds in practice. Far more if any lag is present.
Abilities cancelling halfway through cast.
Abilities often not firing at all after cast.
Stuck cast bar.
1 second lag on firing all abilities after disorient effect has gone.
Balance mechanic screwed up on Swordmaster.

Granted some of these issues are associated with lag and bugs but atm disorients are a freakin train wreck.

[Xaxas]

Ugh this thread is full of ADD gnats, I was looking to see if there were any Swordmaster threads running, I find one, there's about 3 actual swordmasters in the thread and some chosen band wagoning on our thread and it devolves into mindless bashing.

Another issue that irks me is the surge of Swordmaster activism after the bubble nerfs. There were no vocal outcries for Hoeth/Khaine ever since launch and its crappy tactics but as soon as the bubble nerfs come in, Swordmaster is all of the sudden in desperate need of attention. It seems like the class is inflated with vaul swordmasters, pretending as if the khaine/hoeth lines are viable alternatives.

My 2c:

Swordmaster is a garbage class.

All you posts you see about our damage, I can really say that our damage is garbage if it weren't for two moves. Ensorcelled Agony currently scales great with damage, and Blurring Shock both add to our outgoing damage tremendously. Remove both of those and really we're a garbage class. I'm tired of hearing people say that we're MDPS in armor in the current situation because that's quite frankly a misnomer, Ironbreaker does as much damage as us, and White Lion still does more dps then we would do.

The bubble mechanic has always been a bad mechanic in the first place, its a static value that doesn't scale. Honestly absorbing 400 damage is nothing compared to something like 10-15% block from a tactic.

Swordmasters were indeed suppose to be mirrored in ROLE with a black guard in conception but we're really just gimped black orcs right now.

The class is in dire need of help, and besides archmage I'd say we're the class in most need of attention right now.

[jdela13]

Another issue that irks me is the surge of Swordmaster activism after the bubble nerfs. There were no vocal outcries for Hoeth/Khaine ever since launch and its crappy tactics but as soon as the bubble nerfs come in, Swordmaster is all of the sudden in desperate need of attention. It seems like the class is inflated with vaul swordmasters, pretending as if the khaine/hoeth lines are viable alternatives.


I've played this class since closed beta. There were people from the beginning posting about the issues that the hasty re-alignment a few weeks prior to release did to the class. In beta the SM was one class. Preview Weekend it was another class. BS change it became another class. Absorb shield change it has become its 4th class. None except the beta class was really great (perhaps even a bit OP) and even then there were bugs. The reason for the outcry now is because most have adapted to play in a Vaul spec. It was the class that lasted the longest and it was decent. Now Khaine is the best spec, but guess what nothing changed in the tree. People have adapted.

I've been rolling alts to be honest. It is hard giving up a rank 40 character, but between the end game and the class I just get frustrated wondering if I have to respec again today. I'll still play my SM, but now playing other classes I've noticed two things:

1. No stance makes the game so easy to play. Sometimes I find myself with too many options that I hesitate. I can do so much at the click of a single button it is great.

2. The mechanic concept is useless fluff that does not work properly. Stances, dances, pets, waagh, etc. It makes things more complicated than they need to be. It makes the game harder to balance for the developers. It puts overhead and complexity where it is not needed. Keep it simple and the game would have a much better feel IMO. The desired result was to make classes feel different. They don't, each one just has to battle some arbitrary mechanic to do what it does best. Different skills and abilities make classes different.

The SM class does not have a direction. The players of the class don't have a single voice in the direction of the class either. The devs have to create the definition of the class and build to that, whatever that is. Every class has useless tactics, but some of the SM tactics some do not even make sense even if they worked properly. It is time for the devs to come out and post and say what exactly they expect the SM to do on the battle field. Love it or hate it at least it would be a step.

[Delolith]

I've played this class since closed beta. There were people from the beginning posting about the issues that the hasty re-alignment a few weeks prior to release did to the class. In beta the SM was one class. Preview Weekend it was another class. BS change it became another class. Absorb shield change it has become its 4th class. None except the beta class was really great (perhaps even a bit OP) and even then there were bugs. The reason for the outcry now is because most have adapted to play in a Vaul spec. It was the class that lasted the longest and it was decent. Now Khaine is the best spec, but guess what nothing changed in the tree. People have adapted.

I've been rolling alts to be honest. It is hard giving up a rank 40 character, but between the end game and the class I just get frustrated wondering if I have to respec again today. I'll still play my SM, but now playing other classes I've noticed two things:

1. No stance makes the game so easy to play. Sometimes I find myself with too many options that I hesitate. I can do so much at the click of a single button it is great.

2. The mechanic concept is useless fluff that does not work properly. Stances, dances, pets, waagh, etc. It makes things more complicated than they need to be. It makes the game harder to balance for the developers. It puts overhead and complexity where it is not needed. Keep it simple and the game would have a much better feel IMO. The desired result was to make classes feel different. They don't, each one just has to battle some arbitrary mechanic to do what it does best. Different skills and abilities make classes different.

The SM class does not have a direction. The players of the class don't have a single voice in the direction of the class either. The devs have to create the definition of the class and build to that, whatever that is. Every class has useless tactics, but some of the SM tactics some do not even make sense even if they worked properly. It is time for the devs to come out and post and say what exactly they expect the SM to do on the battle field. Love it or hate it at least it would be a step.

A very good and informative post that covers many problems. The swordmaster class atm has MANY bugs...arguably most bugged class with Chosen in game atm due to abilities working in a different subpar manner than advertised in the tooltip, subpar tactics etc. Still people manage to use the one gimmick of the class, the spiritual damage based attacks to their benefit and by creating high strength profiles to adapt and make Swordmaster a very good 1 vs 1 class.

However, that is where the problem begins along with many Order classes. Swordmaster is a good 1 vs 1 class...but he does not shine in a group or mass PvP environment for the reason that it lacks direction...he has no aparent role in a group other than lead the assist train atm....something that was added with the latest patch and the fix on Blurring Shock. Apart from that Swordmaster has nothing to bring to the group apart from this. The same cannot be said about Black Orcs. They can bring the same assist train utility through their Skull Thumper...while retaining a very very high survivability through Da Toughest (and actually self healing close to 40-60k in scenarios...), they are able to reduce physical mitigation through Wot Armour (which benefits destruction since they are melee/physical favored, Swodrmaster can reduce resists by a very feeble amount compared to what other classes can do like Magus resist debuff), they can buff their group by stealing stats AoE from their enemies using a tactic (while a Swordmaster can only steal them for himself) and they also get an AoE cone that deals damage...reduces strength, snares for 40% and disorients...all in a good 1 tactic package. Same problem with Witch Hunters compared to Witch elves. They are better 1 vs 1 class and can kill pretty much anyone...but in mass RvR...this extra damage that they are missing for the extra survivability compared to WEs really hurts them. Cause that extra survivability will gain them nothing more than 1 second life....while the extra damage that WEs have might actually make them succeed to take down their target before they die.

Some people will argue that Black Orc is not the Swordmaster mirror in role...but rather the anti-magic Black Guard is. In that case we are missing all those passive +disrupt and +parry that Black Guards can get through tactics. Not to mention after the absorb shield nerf (which affected BGs partially too) we do not have a reliable survivability mechanism like toughness increase that BGs get....or Elite Training (which in its bugged form it provides 10 seconds of complete immunity from melee attacks from the frontal 180 degrees). Arguably in 1 vs 1 Swordmaster will come top...but nothing can substitute the utility of the black guard in the group environment...and every single Swordmaster that played the class extenssively would trade this 1 vs 1 "uberness" for the group synergy.

Delolith

[firecow]

Ugh this thread is full of ADD gnats, I was looking to see if there were any Swordmaster threads running, I find one, there's about 3 actual swordmasters in the thread and some chosen band wagoning on our thread and it devolves into mindless bashing.

Another issue that irks me is the surge of Swordmaster activism after the bubble nerfs. There were no vocal outcries for Hoeth/Khaine ever since launch and its crappy tactics but as soon as the bubble nerfs come in, Swordmaster is all of the sudden in desperate need of attention. It seems like the class is inflated with vaul swordmasters, pretending as if the khaine/hoeth lines are viable alternatives.

My 2c:

Swordmaster is a garbage class.

All you posts you see about our damage, I can really say that our damage is garbage if it weren't for two moves. Ensorcelled Agony currently scales great with damage, and Blurring Shock both add to our outgoing damage tremendously. Remove both of those and really we're a garbage class. I'm tired of hearing people say that we're MDPS in armor in the current situation because that's quite frankly a misnomer, Ironbreaker does as much damage as us, and White Lion still does more dps then we would do.

The bubble mechanic has always been a bad mechanic in the first place, its a static value that doesn't scale. Honestly absorbing 400 damage is nothing compared to something like 10-15% block from a tactic.

Swordmasters were indeed suppose to be mirrored in ROLE with a black guard in conception but we're really just gimped black orcs right now.

The class is in dire need of help, and besides archmage I'd say we're the class in most need of attention right now.

Is there any real amount of activism? Most of us have just expressed our deep concerns over the issue.

There are a lot of Vaul SM but that isn't the reason for any type of activism. We are TANKS. If our damage tree isn't performing up to par it's not such a big deal, but when our tanking tree takes a hit, it's dire news for a tank class; especially when you consider that very few else works in the tanking tree.

When you consider that people listed broken vaul skills/tactics, noone really became activists for it. It was just listed. Hitting the Vaul's buffer and phantom blade and PoH hits the class as a tank. You can say having 15% mitigation from tactic is better than our bubbles, but it was all we had. If we don't even have a base tank (survivability), what do we have? We don't even have a class. We have an avatar with a bunch of random abilities assigned to it.

Personally I just want the tank to be fixed. Everything else, like damage/utility, is something they can take their time with if they can't find the time for us.