How to make a Disiple of Khaine work

[Garok]

I still maintan you can get away with this and not poop on whats already known. Taking the idea of exilies (which we know happens ie cult of Slannesh) and giving them a reason to be involved in the invading army. Yet also keeping them in line with the Dark Elf beliefs.


Background

For the Deciples of Khaine view Naggaroth's decident culture a blasfomy against there great god. Were as the Hag's value's beauty a Deciple of Khaine belive their god has no interest in such fickle things and wear their scar's with pride seeing them as marks of honnor of gained in the service of their bloody god. Disenchanted with the Temple of Khaine and unable to stem thier lust for battle and bloodshed they left the great city behind venturing north into the very madening hart of the chaos wastes.

However the call of a full scale War is to strong for some to resist. Some may see a desablisation of the Temple of Khaine as a usefull tool, for someone that might have an eye to the throne of Naggaroth. Such views are probably best left unmentiond.

Feared by all and reveared by their followers for having what appears to be the touch of Khaine, however looks can be decieving!

Deciple of Khaine Speciality

If life in Naggaroth is harsh, life in the chaos wastes is yet harsher still. The chances of survival are slim but the Deciples of Khaine have learned to harness the raw magic that seeps through the Gates of Chaos to tair out the very life force of their enemies. Using this combination of stolen life energy and magic to unleash devistating close combat magic attack's or bind wounds so they can continue to fight and spread the gospel of Khaine.


Playing as a Diciple of Khaine

For each wound you cause your opponent the greater the amount Action Points you can drain from them. Playing a Deciple of Khaine requires you to know when to capitalise on your attacks, too soon and you may not have enough life force to heal you and your allies, but to long and it may already be to late! Keeping your opponent in mele range is essential denying the ability to use there most powerfull attacks by draining their action points.

Playing against a Diciple of Khaine

Your best change is disrupt their combo chains to limit the amount of healing and damage keeping them at range to deny them the chance to steal your action points.


The Deciple of Khaine Look

Moderately armoured with leather and chitlinous breast plate's, taken from the strage beasts that lurk in the chaos wastes.
Cruel barbed one handed weapons.
"The Bloody Hand of Khaine" a claw'd gauntlet used to tair the very life essence from their opponents and unleash devistating magical based mele attacks.And there you have it. A non copy of the warrior priest which has a unique look and mech, yet more importantly adds to the lore and does not go against it.

[Zunjin]

Interesting and works well. Creating a class that exists outside the normal dark elf society ( city dwellers ) and doesnt changes how the temple works is proberly the best idea of a dark elf healing class in my opinion. Just a question: Will these be males or females or both?

[Garok]

Yups both male and female.

[Necrophyt]

I really like the idea of the "fist weapon" idea. It's something no other class has. I've always like the drawings of Malekith with his hand of khaine showing.

[Xurré]

There is no way to make a "Disciple of Khaine" work as a healing class.


- Xurré

[Lord Tareq]

Its amazing you actually managed to write Disciple in 3 different (wrong) ways, Disiple, Diciple and Deciple ;)

About the idea, no a Khainite healer like this conflicts too much with the lore. It would be outrageous to have a class like this in the game.

[Zunjin]

There is no way to make a "Disciple of Khaine" work as a healing class.




- Xurré

Actually if you read it through its quite similiar to your soul stealer. It got the background so it doesnt even have to be a khanite workshipper ( even if it is prefered by the author ). They are even opposite to the temple and they dont get their magic powers from Khaine. Infact I think shades when I read this, not that they are similiar to the people behind the name shades, but becouse they feel like outcasts.. What I try to get down to is that it is a idea that might work!

[Ojike]

I dont think that someone that worshipper Khaine would heal... AT ALL! :P he is the blood god etc. :P he just want death, either its his enemies or followers. :)

[Ranti]

Actually if you read it through its quite similiar to your soul stealer. It got the background so it doesnt even have to be a khanite workshipper ( even if it is prefered by the author ). They are even opposite to the temple and they dont get their magic powers from Khaine. Infact I think shades when I read this, not that they are similiar to the people behind the name shades, but becouse they feel like outcasts.. What I try to get down to is that it is a idea that might work!

Yet the power is given from khaine and not Dhar. Therefore, it is a fundamental difference.

[Zunjin]

Yet the power is given from khaine and not Dhar. Therefore, it is a fundamental difference.

I might have missunderstood the author then becouse he sayd magic taken from the Gates of chaos while traveling in the wastelands. It was, if even not the authors intention , a very interesting background idea in my opinion.

Edit: Clarifictation: Not magic granted by Khaine simply

[Lokus]

I think it sounds possible, even plausible. The lore has been stretched further than this, I mean just look at the dwarf mount heh. Good writeup Garok.

[Zunjin]

There was a person who took up the "fact" ( havnt been able to find the exact source ) that there are necromancers workshipping Khaine becouse they use souls from his underworld to create their minions. There is nothing implying though that the magic to steal these souls does come from the god himself. It would be imagined they use "ordinary" necromancy magic for this part ( someone high on undead magic here maybe that can say which wind of magic necromancers use? ).
Workshipping a god, and this feels true to how magic isnt allowed to begin with in the temple, as so doesnt have to mean you have to use magic granted by the god to at the same time workship him. A renegade band of Khaine workshippers should as so be able to wield chaos magic granted by the same source as for example lets say a sorcereress, and and still claim they workship Khaine. After all, the idea presented here wasnt about a group workshipping Khaine as a healing aspect, it was a group deticated to wreak havoc for their god and stealing life energy from their enemies. This is pure speculations though.

[Garok]

About the idea, no a Khainite healer like this conflicts too much with the lore. It would be outrageous to have a class like this in the game.

Having any Darkelf healer is going against the Lore but you need one to make the faction work period. Its far less of a bend then a sorc healing, corsair with magic sponges or any other nonsence.

[mongoose]

The biggest flaw in this concept is that if you arent an accepted member of the Temple of Khaine then you would be considered a heretic and treated to an appropriate death.

If you are STILL a member of the Temple however, then this concept goes against Morathis edict that noone from the temple are allowed to practice magic. So if your willing to defenestrate even MORE of established lore then sure, whatever.

Having any Darkelf healer is going against the Lore but you need one to make the faction work period. Its far less of a bend then a sorc healing, corsair with magic sponges or any other nonsence.

I disagree and making the Sorc the Hybrid support would have been the less lore bending (much less breaking) solution because A) They are allowed to practice magic, B) Have a sort of "healing" ability through soul transfer, functioning theough dark magic and NOT Khaine.

I find it interesting you dont people dont think the Dark magic spell Soul Stealer isnt a healing spell (which it clearly is in the description) but are instead willing to making a leaping assumption that just because the Cauldrons can restore youth that IS healing. :rolleyes:

[Foofmonger]

Couldn't they just make Morathi make a new edict for wartime use or something?

I mean its kinda cheesy, but its doable.

[mongoose]

Couldn't they just make Morathi make a new edict for wartime use or something?

I mean its kinda cheesy, but its doable.

Yes they sure could just like overlooking male Sorcerers and giving all Dwarves a dumb tractor to drive around in :mad:

I admit to not knowing the true reason why Morathi declared no magic. Was it simply a control thing? or was she somehow trying to protect Malekith so Assassins (or other male worshipors of Khaine) wouldnt learn to be spell casters and fulfill the prophecy? :confused:

[Arkane]

I think this would be much better than a Beastmaster, or anything else that has been suggested on these boards.

[LastHeretic]

if you question anything about dark elves just remember that every one of them is about as paranoid as you can get. and the leaders even more so as they have more reason to believe everyone wants to stab em in the back.

anybody with the ability to use magic is a threat to morathi (yes an malekith through the prophecy)

[Sindal]

I still stand by my opinion that Khaine would give certain blessed followers divine power be it to heal, pain suppression, increse dmg etc. Khaine is the god of murder correct? What is better to a god of murder 2 dead or 5 dead? thats the way to look at it. If you are a god with infinite powers and you have a loyal subject who is slaying foes in your name left and right why not bless him with a little more power, a little more zeal, a little more health, a little more toughness. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Not to mention theres so much still in secret about khaine. He was worshipped by the elves originally as the god of war. Part of war is support and tactics. A good army only gets as far as they supply train. HE is not Khorne, he is not single minded, he does not despise magic. Perhaps one of his hidden faces is one that is more focused in inspiring, or frightening if you prefer, troops into greater acts of strength, power, vengeance. Perhaps its a face of a leader or commander inspiring his forces to even greater heights. I still don't understand why some of you insist of reducing him to the level of Khorne, he does not ONLY care about one on one combat, or slaughter. Hell Khorne wouldn't work a second for the druchii, in fact they could be THE most un-khorne of all the reaces. Khorne is the duel in a circle, Khaine is kicking sand in the eyes of your attacker. Khorne is a stab through the gut, Khaine is poison in your dinner. They are not the same, Khaine is much more sophisticated and could easily see that if he lends his support to a select through his bounty is increased exponentially.

Xurre I think more of your probelm with the class then you care to admit comes from not wanting to share Khaine with another class. You want to be the Khainiac. Thats fine, no one is asking to take the place of Khaine's brides or his chosen. It would make sense that as most gods in warhammer Khaine has a ability to interact with the real world, be it through frenzy, magic, divine warning, cauldrons etc. Now who would you suggest his magic would currently go to? The assasians don't want it they have thier own power and I don't think blowing in the front door is there style. The Witch Elves don't need it not to mention I can't see them being focused enough to use magic while they are in a frenzy naked in the middle of 50 asur enraptured by thier beauty, its just not them. So perhaps he does lend it to someone else to help out his brides, to spill more souls for his underworld.

Finally one last time, whats better 1 steak dinner, or 5 steak dinners.

Whats better 2 souls, or 5 souls? its as simple as that

[Selendor]

The biggest flaw in this concept is that if you arent an accepted member of the Temple of Khaine then you would be considered a heretic and treated to an appropriate death.

You mean like the Executioners are? :-P Either they're not heretical, or the Witch Elves are just scared to pick a fight with 'em. :-P Because they've been a separate sect of Khainite warriors for a damn long time.

[Adamwest]

*EDITED for content*

[mongoose]

You mean like the Executioners are? :-P Either they're not heretical, or the Witch Elves are just scared to pick a fight with 'em. :-P Because they've been a separate sect of Khainite warriors for a damn long time.

errm, to be a sect of the Temple means you are a part of it ;)

Just like the WEs and Assassins are two DIFFERENT sects. What the Lizard is hinting at is a separate unsanctioned worship of Khaine outside the temple.

[Anglakhel]

The Executioners are the embodiment of Khaine in his aspect of the Executioner. Seeing as how Khaine is a god and that the Executioners, and the entire city of Har Ganeth, are devoted to Khaine in this specific aspect and worship him as the Executioner it is pretty safe to assume they are a sect of Khaine.

The lore tells us that a number of sects are devoted to Khaine's rites and rituals and that the Witch Elves are the most numerous. When we say "The Temple of Khaine" we are referring to the most important and dominant sect of Khaine worshippers: the Brides of Khaine.

Not all religious worship and emulation of Khaine takes place through the Temple of Khaine. It is the most powerful and most important cult of Khaine, hence The Temple of Khaine, but not the only cult to worship Khaine in Druchii society. The Executioners are an existing lore example of a militant religious order and a sect or cult of Khaine that is not contained within the official Temple of Khaine cult.

This does not mean there is no interaction between the two cults. This does not mean the Executioners are superior to the Temple of Khaine, but there are some special purposes that the Executioners fulfill. Some special rites and rituals that are conducted in Khaine's aspect as Executioner, and for these you need the Executioners.

[Marus]

This doesn't sound feasible. Khaine = God of Murder. It might not be such a far stretch to have a healing class follow him but it would make so much more sense if we had a class that followed the Cult of Pleasure; the Dark Elves that follow Slaanesh.

It is still a major part of Dark Elf society and they definetly still have a place in the Dark Elven religious world.

[Karas]

good god so many spelling mistakes it makes my eyes bleed.

OP l2spell or use the spell check tool >.<

As for the idea ... it sounds good, but it won't be the one that's in game. The classes have been made and set, just not released to public yet.

So i have three words for you all:

Evil Marketing Department.

[Nightmare]

As for the idea ... it sounds good, but it won't be the one that's in game. The classes have been made and set, just not released to public yet.

But if we don't know the last one, we can't count it out yet :-)

[Karas]

Sure we can, just because we don't know what the last one is doesn't make imaginary classes any more likely of showing up in the game.
:p

[Nightmare]

It seems to have just as much of a chance as any of the others.

[Ranti]

I might have missunderstood the author then becouse he sayd magic taken from the Gates of chaos while traveling in the wastelands. It was, if even not the authors intention , a very interesting background idea in my opinion.

Edit: Clarifictation: Not magic granted by Khaine simply

Then it simply isn't a "acolyte of khaine" it is a "Annointed" or "chosen of slannesh" or some other chaos based class

[Saerain]

There is no way to make a "Disciple of Khaine" work as a healing class.


- Xurré If you mean that a Dark Elf devoted to Khaine cannot work as a healer, I disagree.

If you mean that the word 'disciple' implies that they are direct students of Khaine, therefore shaping themselves in his image, and therefore it would be a strange word to apply to a healing class, then I agree.

Regardless, I believe the post is not far at all from what Mythic has planned. Numerous spelling errors aside.

[Arkane]

If you mean that a Dark Elf devoted to Khaine cannot work as a healer, I disagree.

If you mean that the word 'disciple' implies that they are direct students of Khaine, therefore shaping themselves in his image, and therefore it would be a strange word to apply to a healing class, then I agree.

Regardless, I believe the post is not far at all from what Mythic has planned. Numerous spelling errors aside.
I agree. It could work, and I could see it working.

[Doc Lumbago]

The character is cool, mechanics will work I think

BUT WHY THE (ENTER VULGAR WORD FOR HAVING SEX HERE I RESPECT THE BOARDS RULE YOU SEE) MUST EVERY HEALER BE BASED ON BLOOD OR KHAINE ???

I appreciate every other idea ( accupressure, drugs, magic )

[Xurré]

BUT WHY THE (ENTER VULGAR WORD FOR HAVING SEX HERE I RESPECT THE BOARDS RULE YOU SEE) MUST EVERY HEALER BE BASED ON BLOOD OR KHAINE ???
Because people lack imagination and when they think "healing" they, for some reason, automatically think "religion" without actually looking at (and considering) the religion in question?


- Xurré

[Estebar]

Because people lack imagination and when they think "healing" they, for some reason, automatically think "religion" without actually looking at (and considering) the religion in question? Or because every other Healer class released so far has had healing sources in either magic or religion, and the last Dark Elf class released was a magic specialist?

[Lord Tareq]

Or because every other Healer class released so far has had healing sources in either magic or religion, and the last Dark Elf class released was a magic specialist?

Or because those *sniffs* people are selfish and not into Warhammer, will only play this game because its new and they are bored with WoW, and only want to see what they think is "kewl", completely ignoring existing lore in order to concoct some lame "Blood based healer of Khaine" class?

[Coheed]

I agree with Tareq
but Mythic DOES have to make the game appealing. You know how gaming companys are. They can't make it appeal to JUST the fans they have before they launch the game, everyone needs to like it.

I see it this way. They are doing their best to include as much lore as they can while still trying to make things that will appeal to WoW players or people who are just looking for a new MMO and are not interested in lore.

Back on topic though, i think the idea is great.

[Sinfjotle]

Which runs us right around to the point of "you can please both groups".


Is this thread going that direction, seriously?

[Ganymed]

Or because those *sniffs* people are selfish and not into Warhammer, will only play this game because its new and they are bored with WoW, and only want to see what they think is "kewl", completely ignoring existing lore in order to concoct some lame "Blood based healer of Khaine" class?

people that arent familiar with warhammer lore dont care at all what healer class dark elfs will get lore wise, as long as the mechanic works. hell, they prolly never heard of khaine or slaanesh before.

and to this topic: its the same discussion we have in numerous other threads, some say such an healer would be an abomination, some say it would work lore wise. this thread is another symptom of the damn waiting time mythic throwed at us before announcing the DE supporter, damn them I Say! :p

PS: will be beastmaster, and u all know it! :twisted:

[Estebar]

All it needs is a new class to worship Khaine in his aspect as "The Blood Drinker" or "The Soul Drinker" or "The Flayer of Souls" or "The Ravenous Beast", for instance, hungrily tearing apart the enemy's life force to sustain both himself and his brethren, and you've got yourself a new Khaine-worshipping healer class.

It works in the exact same way as the Executioners worshipping Khaine in his aspect as "The Executioner". Should the Witch Elves feel cheated because they don't get the skill to use longer blades like Draichs or the skill to be able to kill an enemy with a single blow or wear armour like the Executioners? No, because it's simply not the way they worship the Lord of Murder.

Should the Executioners be considered renegades because they're not an official part of the Temple of Khaine? No, because they're still a well-organised warrior-cult of Khaine.

Do we have any evidence of Khaine approving stealing the life from non-believers and innocents to sustain his followers? Of course we do. The Cauldron of Blood serves that purpose well for the Witch Elves.

Does the Temple of Khaine disapprove of mystical means of healing? Well, Morathi has prevented Witch Elves from using magical power, and normally all males are prevented from using sorcery, so that would rule Assassins and Executioners out. However, now that it seems the ban on male Sorcerors is being lifted, male Khaine-worshippers and non-Witch Elves should be able to use some kind of mystical means to drain the souls or blood out of enemies to keep his/her brethren alive and hungry for the kill.

It's entirely plausible.

[mongoose]

All it needs is a new class to worship Khaine in his aspect as "The Blood Drinker" or "The Soul Drinker" or "The Flayer of Souls" or "The Ravenous Beast", for instance, hungrily tearing apart the enemy's life force to sustain both himself and his brethren, and you've got yourself a new Khaine-worshipping healer class.

Thats a long jump between an aspect of Khaine and all of a sudden being able to heal through his power.


It works in the exact same way as the Executioners worshipping Khaine in his aspect as "The Executioner". Should the Witch Elves feel cheated because they don't get the skill to use longer blades like Draichs or the skill to be able to kill an enemy with a single blow or wear armour like the Executioners? No, because it's simply not the way they worship the Lord of Murder.

You are missing the point though that introduction of a Healer class will undermine the way the current temple functions. Having a group that uses Khaines power to heal others would most definitely put them in the hierarchy and a position of GREAT power over others, especially the now pathetic Witch Elves and Jags who arent allowed such divine gifts. I thought it was you yourself who made just that very point a week or so back so this 180 is a bit confusing. :rolleyes:


Should the Executioners be considered renegades because they're not an official part of the Temple of Khaine? No, because they're still a well-organised warrior-cult of Khaine.

Who is calling them renegades? You guys cant have it both ways. I was more than willing to agree that based on the 5th ed. info that there were more sects to the Temple than just the Witch Elves and Assassins so the Executioners are just another sect inside the temple and not functioning outside of it (which is what Garok was implying with his idea) The Temple of Khaine isnt just in one city but, just like any well established religion, has branches of the same temple in all the cities. So different cities have different lesser sects but they still ALL worship in and through the same cult and not outside of it.


Do we have any evidence of Khaine approving stealing the life from non-believers and innocents to sustain his followers? Of course we do. The Cauldron of Blood serves that purpose well for the Witch Elves.

Does the Temple of Khaine disapprove of mystical means of healing? Well, Morathi has prevented Witch Elves from using magical power, and normally all males are prevented from using sorcery, so that would rule Assassins and Executioners out. However, now that it seems the ban on male Sorcerers is being lifted, male Khaine-worshippers and non-Witch Elves should be able to use some kind of mystical means to drain the souls or blood out of enemies to keep his/her brethren alive and hungry for the kill.

Just because the apparent ban was lifted dosent all of a sudden mean that Khaine is going to start freely passing around his magical powers and especially not in the form of healing. :rolleyes:

What Xurre has said many times was that while yes, the Cauldrons do preform a restorative act, its only through GREAT pains, only once a year and only to the MOST devout of servants does Khaine even grant this very small restorative act. SO now you want to turn something that is both a precious and exceedingly RARE gift and turn it into a common place event, allowing an entire sect to have ACTUAL full on, 'close open wounds and bring people back to life', powers and not simply restoration of youth.

There is something many of you seemed to have overlooked and that is the possibility that this restorative gift is even more rare than you might be willing to admit.

There is the distinct possibility that all of the lesser cauldrons the other Hags bathe in arent true cauldrons of Khaine at all and were constructed by Morathi ages ago through dark magic. Morathi not being a god though couldnt recreate the true power of Khaine and was unwilling to share that very limited gift so the "lesser" cauldrons dont work like the true one. All those other cauldrons could be nothing more than a dark magic sham. The other hags might believe its Khaines power but it is really dark magic. This sounds like something Morathi would do just because she is that cruel and selfish.


It's entirely plausible.

So in the end is is possible? Sure its possible anything is possible but logic would tell us its not even remotely likely.

It is plausible though? no.

[Estebar]

Thats a long jump between an aspect of Khaine and all of a sudden being able to heal through his power. Not really. Khaine murders people in every way possible through his followers, is that correct? And each of his aspects is a method of murder turned into an art form. One method of murdering someone is, presumably, slowly draining them of their life for one's own sustenance - whether that be through eating them, drinking their blood, stealing their food/money/shelter, or absorbing their soul. Many types of insects, animals and creatures do it, and even some selfish/greedy/desperate humans are driven to it sometimes. It's one way of killing someone, is it not? Just as instantly killing someone, by lopping off someone's head as an Executioner for instance, is also an aspect of Khaine. And Dark Elves would want to take full advantage of it. It's committing murder. The sustenance part comes second to the actual taking life from another person. I fail to see how that couldn't be one of Khaine's aspects.

You are missing the point though that introduction of a Healer class will undermine the way the current temple functions. Having a group that uses Khaines power to heal others would most definitely put them in the hierarchy and a position of GREAT power over others, especially the now pathetic Witch Elves and Jags who arent allowed such divine gifts. By that reasoning, shouldn't the Executioners undermine the Witch Elves? They use a much longer blade in the draich, they wear armour to protect themselves and they kill in a single blow. But the Witch Elves manage to retain their uniqueness because of their fighting style and unique background. Frenzy, poisons, combat drugs, near-nudity, female gender and eternal youth are their thing. No one will take that away from them. I will discuss this further down.

Who is calling them renegades? You guys cant have it both ways. I was more than willing to agree that based on the 5th ed. info that there were more sects to the Temple than just the Witch Elves and Assassins so the Executioners are just another sect inside the temple and not functioning outside of it (which is what Garok was implying with his idea) The Temple of Khaine isnt just in one city but, just like any well established religion, has branches of the same temple in all the cities. So different cities have different lesser sects but they still ALL worship in and through the same cult and not outside of it. Which "guys" are you talking about? I'm using the term 'renegades' because Xurre was saying that she would consider Healing Khaine-worshippers renegade from the Temple of Khaine because they would go against everything the Temple stands for and undermine the Witch Elves. I agree with Garok. Judging by their description (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/10/), I'd say that the Executioners had some distinction from the Temple itself. But it doesn't matter how well-connected the Executioners are to the Temple. They have enough distinction from Khaine's other worshippers to make sure neither class has their toes tread on. Life-drainers of Khaine are just as distinctive from Witch Elves. A sect which worships Khaine in his aspect as "The Ravenous Beast", endlessly hungry for life, hunting for blood and defying death in the process in desperation, might look beastly, degenerate, and entirely different to the Witch Elves in demeanor, motivation, and methods of restoration. You have to remember that on a battlefield, putting a bandage on someone doesn't make them any younger or prettier - it just makes them able to fight that much longer.

Just because the apparent ban was lifted dosent all of a sudden mean that Khaine is going to start freely passing around his magical powers and especially not in the form of healing. :rolleyes: If the ban was never there in the first place, then there's nothing to worry about in that regard.

Plus, I made a point earlier (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=574922&postcount=49) about the relationship between Elves and gods. As Paul Barnett once said when introducing Elves into WAR - "They're Elves, and they can do anything they bloody well like." Elves already know that gods are just another manifestation of drive and emotion within the Aethyr, like magic, and have learnt to control that to suit their needs. The High Elves created a whole pantheon of gods to suit every aspect of Ulthuan society. The Dark Elves took one of those gods, rejecting the others, and reinvented him as something much more violent, and extended him into 1,000 aspects with presumably 1,000 secret names so that Khaine could be used in every aspect of Naggaroth society in helping the Druchii be avenged against their kin.

It's not Khaine who controls the Druchii, it's the Druchii who control Khaine and use his influence and imagery to control others. If Elves can bend and twist a force of pure darkness, destruction and decay into an energy which can be used to heal as long as that destructive force is appeased with a sacrifice, then they can bend and twist a manifestation of murder and destruction to suit a similar purpose as long as that manifestation is appeased in the process through taking someone's life first. The rest just comes down to a bunch of scheming political factions using these energies as fronts to conceal their own sinister actions. It's rather like Tokugawa, who deceived, betrayed and murdered all those around him during the Japanese feudal wars in order to climb to the supreme position of Shogun while hiding behind Buddhist concepts of Karma to show how he had earned his place in power through good deeds in a previous life. Essentially, he made it his Karma. The Witch Elves and Sorceresses work in the same way. The Witch Elves could be roleplayed as jealous or suspicious of such a sect emerging (which would give Xurre's ire towards them that much more flavour) but Malekith's use for them would override that. The Witch King would certainly have a use for those who could preserve his legions beyond their death to continue fighting that much longer, and if Naggaroth's patron god can be formed into an aspect which gives them this ability, Malekith will make it so.

What Xurre has said many times was that while yes, the Cauldrons do preform a restorative act, its only through GREAT pains, only once a year and only to the MOST devout of servants does Khaine even grant this very small restorative act. SO now you want to turn something that is both a precious and exceedingly RARE gift and turn it into a common place event, allowing an entire sect to have ACTUAL full on, 'close open wounds and bring people back to life', powers and not simply restoration of youth. It was discussed elsewhere that MMO death does not necessarily have to considered real death. It's more like being broken and battered, falling into a state of unconsciousness. You don't think the fact that all the Dark Elf classes are going to be constantly respawning anyway kind of undermines how essential the Hag Queen's eternal youth is, and the Witch Elves' dedication to death - even their own? A healing Khaine-worshipping class is keeping his kin invigorated with a purpose to kill in a similar way to how Uriel creates those Riders, "murder given form" who endlessly hunt Malus with the intent of killing him even after they've been beaten down time and time again. This single-minded purpose of murder is reserved for the battlefield, presumably where Khaine is at his strongest, and this is where these Khaine-worshipping healers can prove their use. They do not provide immortality in the same way that Khaine does for the Hags and Hag Queens. They're simply forcing fellow followers to get back up and keep fighting in the same way that the Shaman orders his fellow Boyz to "Ged'up" cos the fight's not over yet.

There is something many of you seemed to have overlooked and that is the possibility that this restorative gift is even more rare than you might be willing to admit. Reading the beginning of this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/3/) description of the Cauldron ritual, perhaps it happens a little more regularly than you and Xurre think? It says there that the Witch Elves bathe in blood "after a great and bloody battle" with no mention of Death Night.

Also, if the Hags can only bathe in the Cauldron of Blood once a year on Death Night, then why do they eventually need to bathe "more and more often in the blood cauldrons" to stop themselves turning into withered old crones? Sounds like they don't have to wait for Death Night to come around once a year to me.

There is the distinct possibility that all of the lesser cauldrons the other Hags bathe in arent true cauldrons of Khaine at all and were constructed by Morathi ages ago through dark magic. Morathi not being a god though couldnt recreate the true power of Khaine and was unwilling to share that very limited gift so the "lesser" cauldrons dont work like the true one. All those other cauldrons could be nothing more than a dark magic sham. The other hags might believe its Khaines power but it is really dark magic. This sounds like something Morathi would do just because she is that cruel and selfish. If that were true, it would support my argument that it is not the god's motivations which are important. It is the motivations of the Elves who worship him which are the driving force. The god can be manipulated any way the Elves see fit. For all we know, none of the Cauldrons of Blood might be gifts from Khaine! Perhaps they were all artificially created by Hotek, the renegade priest of Vaul, at Morathi's command to keep her competition dependant and within her magical thrall. You don't think great big Cauldrons of Blood suddenly appearing "as gifts to the Brides from Khaine", and Morathi suddenly revealing one of her own as "the true Cauldron" all sounds a little far-fetched? Like I said, it's the Elves dictating the motivations of the god and not the other way around.

this 180 is a bit confusing. :rolleyes: This "180" came around because after the Sorceror was implemented as the Ranged DPS class, and everyone starting pulling Dark Elf melee healers out of their asses, the Lorists trying to tip-toe around the lore as much as possible by making far-fetched classes outside of conventional spheres of magic and religion, and the MMOists sticking to their plan and going with what they've been saying all along, I went back, read over their arguments and thought, this is just a game. Just as Warhammer Fantasy Battle is just a game. And Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying is just a game. Lore changes ALL THE TIME. Games Workshop is particularly infamous for making changes to their lore all the freakin' time. Over in Warhammer 40,000, a lot of fans were disgusted with how the Necrons were forced into the lore, re-writing a whole bunch of Eldar lore in the process.

How do you think people felt when Games Workshop suddenly made Caledor's Prophecy? Some of us loved having our Dark Elf Sorcerors nice and legal in 4th/5th Edition with their own artwork and models and imagery. Suddenly, they get booted out just so Malekith can get some big-haired bints in bikinis as his harem of ghetto-hoochy-mamas.

The game changes all the time. I'll mourn it just as much as the rest of you, but I prefer to stay positive and welcome new ideas from fans. Forums should be about encouraging creativity - that's what Warhammer and roleplaying is all about - not simply about arguing, calling each other names and tossing each other's ideas into the trash can. Perhaps you and Xurre should become Witch Hunters instead, mongoose, seeing as you're so ready to purge ideas that show the slightest contrast with your own beliefs. Otherwise, move on! And accept that lore should never be left to stagnate. I like Witch Elves, and I don't think they're going to be ruined in the process.

[Sindal]

very thoughtful posts from both of you, I missed the quote wars of yesteryear =p

I have to agree with Estebar of course but thats not a suprise to anyone.

I have a semi question/comment as well though. My understanding is that Khaine made the underworld to steal souls from his borther or some such correct? If he were jealous and wanted souls for his underworld why would it be so crazy for him to give clerical powers to allow his warriors to send more souls to his realm?

2 souls is not as good as 12 souls imo... especially if you're already jealous of numbers and wanting more.

Also where is the best place to get complete info on Khaine, I've picked up pieces here and there and tidbits off druchii.net etc. Most of my info come from Xurre's earlier posts as he's the most knowledable on the subject I know of but can someone point me to the best source of Khaine info available?

[Gloovish]

Let's quickly recap how fantasy magic works. There is generic magic and then there is specific magic. Generic magic can produce just about any effect but usually has less power. Specific magic has a certain theme. Specific magic is restricted to its theme but it is usually more powerful within its domain then generic magic. I'll give an example of specific magic with a little story.

Picture a hypothetical god of fire. Lets call him Pyro. Pyro is the embodiment of fire and as such he funnels magical powers to his followers which are, you guessed it, based on fire. Followers of Pyro can fling bolts of fire, create explosions, make things spontaneously combust etc.

One day a priest of the Pyrovian religion was getting kind of sick of throwing fire bolts all the time. He thought to himself: "I always throw fire bolts, even when I'm fighting water elementals. Water elementals happen to be particularly resistant to fire magic. It would be more productive to throw ice bolts at them and freeze them in their tracks." The priest went to the Pyrovian temple and began praying: "O Pyro, great god of fire. Grant me the power to fling ice bolts for it would be more effective against water elementals then bolts of fire."

Suddenly the priest hears a thundering voice in his head: "I am fire. My domain is the flame. The chill is the domain of Glacius. Now burn for your insolence mortal." The problem is that the essence of Pyro is fire and he simply cannot grant his followers the power to fling ice bolts, even if ice bolts are more effective in some situations. Pyro is restricted to his theme. If Pyro's magic could produce any effect, even ice bolts, then he wouldn't be called the god of fire now would he?

Maybe in some rare situations Pyro's magic could somehow produce ice. Maybe Pyrovian priests use fire to boil water to spin a turbine connected to an electric generator that produces electricity, which powers a refrigerator. But that doesn't mean anyone will be using Pyro magic to fling ice bolts.

Now back to Khaine. Is Khainite magic generic or specific? Does Khaine have a certain theme? I would say yes. That means Khainite magic is more powerful in some ways but is restricted in some other ways.

Khaine is fueled by emotions associated with murder and spilling of blood. Healing and resurrecting is the exact opposite of murder and spilling blood. Khaine cannot, on a consistent basis, fuel magic that is the opposite of what his essence is made of. If we allow that we either make something completely illogical or completely lore breaking.

So this argument that goes something like: Tactics dictate that Khaine should let some of his followers heal so that his army is more effective. That would completely transform what Khaine and Khainite energy means. Khaine would cease to be a god whose essence is murder. Khaine would just become a bloodthirsty god that can produce various magic effects.

[Estebar]

Picture a hypothetical god of fire. Lets call him Pyro. Pyro is the embodiment of fire and as such he funnels magical powers to his followers which are, you guessed it, based on fire. Followers of Pyro can fling bolts of fire, create explosions, make things spontaneously combust etc.

One day a priest of the Pyrovian religion was getting kind of sick of throwing fire bolts all the time. He thought to himself: "I always throw fire bolts, even when I'm fighting water elementals. Water elementals happen to be particularly resistant to fire magic. It would be more productive to throw ice bolts at them and freeze them in their tracks." The priest went to the Pyrovian temple and began praying: "O Pyro, great god of fire. Grant me the power to fling ice bolts for it would be more effective against water elementals then bolts of fire."

Suddenly the priest hears a thundering voice in his head: "I am fire. My domain is the flame. The chill is the domain of Glacius. Now burn for your insolence mortal." The problem is that the essence of Pyro is fire and he simply cannot grant his followers the power to fling ice bolts, even if ice bolts are more effective in some situations. Pyro is restricted to his theme. If Pyro's magic could produce any effect, even ice bolts, then he wouldn't be called the god of fire now would he?

Maybe in some rare situations Pyro's magic could somehow produce ice. Maybe Pyrovian priests use fire to boil water to spin a turbine connected to an electric generator that produces electricity, which powers a refrigerator. But that doesn't mean anyone will be using Pyro magic to fling ice bolts. Using this analogy, if Khaine's essence is death, murder and the spilling of blood, then why does he give new life to his most devoted followers? Shouldn't he strike down his followers for wanting to live longer if all he knows his death? Instead, he provides them with the kind of immortality that completely contradicts his own essence.

The reason for this, as far as I can tell, is because gods work differently in the Warhammer World than they do in other conventional fantasy settings where gods like Pyro presumably exist. In the Warhammer World, the Elves have come to understand how gods are made, and how they can be controlled and manipulated. In this way, the Elves have found a way to get Khaine to give them new life: by taking it through others. It is through murder, which is the very essence of Khaine, that Elves can achieve new life. And in this way, Elves can provoke Khaine into healing them.

[Anglakhel]

Very nice post, Estebar. I didn't realize that there was an official update of Hellebron's information on the GW site. I could have copy/pasted from there rather than typing up a bunch of those details from the 4th/5th Edition when I discussed the Cauldron here (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=571306&postcount=93).

I think whatever Mythic implements for the DE Healer, we should be ready to examine the lore with an open mind and find ways to work the proposed Support Career into the dynamics of the existing setting. The game and lore is going to change and evolve from the material we are familiar with from the TT Lore. The lore itself leaves plenty of openings for material to be added and GW definitely has a history of even changing lore so that it directly contradicts lore from earlier versions.

From Sindal:

Also where is the best place to get complete info on Khaine, I've picked up pieces here and there and tidbits off druchii.net etc. Most of my info come from Xurre's earlier posts as he's the most knowledable on the subject I know of but can someone point me to the best source of Khaine info available?

I've been picking at details from the 4th/5th Edition Army Book and the 6th Edition. I'm not sure where the details of Khaine's worship amongst the humans come from. I've seen information posted but never seen someone cite a specific source.

Druchii.net has some information. They include writeups about Khaine's many aspects. Most of those that I've seen involve expanding an aspect of Khaine briefly mentioned in the official Army Books: the Iron Panther for example. It's not official lore, but they're some of the most hardcore fans around so it's at least interesting to see how they imagine the cult(s) ought to work.

Criticalhit (http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/86/49/) also has some lore writeups that expand the official descriptions of Khaine with unofficial material. Often though there is no solid grounding for the writeups they provide if you go strictly by the Army Books.

But we really don't have a lot of details. We know the general place of Khaine in Druchii society and we know the core specifics of how his most populus and prestigious cult operates, but there is a lot left unsaid about the 1000 faced Lord of Murder.

[Sinfjotle]

Maybe in some rare situations Pyro's magic could somehow produce ice. Maybe Pyrovian priests use fire to boil water to spin a turbine connected to an electric generator that produces electricity, which powers a refrigerator. But that doesn't mean anyone will be using Pyro magic to fling ice bolts.

Now back to Khaine. Is Khainite magic generic or specific? Does Khaine have a certain theme? I would say yes. That means Khainite magic is more powerful in some ways but is restricted in some other ways.

Khaine is fueled by emotions associated with murder and spilling of blood. Healing and resurrecting is the exact opposite of murder and spilling blood. Khaine cannot, on a consistent basis, fuel magic that is the opposite of what his essence is made of. If we allow that we either make something completely illogical or completely lore breaking.

Using this analogy, if Khaine's essence is death, murder and the spilling of blood, then why does he give new life to his most devoted followers? Shouldn't he strike down his followers for wanting to live longer if all he knows his death? Instead, he provides them with the kind of immortality that completely contradicts his own essence.


He sort of answered that, I'm just pointing it out and I guess I'll explain it again, because I know someone won't even look at those quotes.

Khaine grants youth through a pain staking process once a year to do a favor to his most devout followers. It requires lots of prep work and a huge ceremony. Otherwise, he doesn't do it.

So maybe a Khainite healer should have to kill an obscene amount of people so he can heal once a year.

[Estebar]

Khaine grants youth through a pain staking process once a year to do a favor to his most devout followers. It requires lots of prep work and a huge ceremony. Otherwise, he doesn't do it.

So maybe a Khainite healer should have to kill an obscene amount of people so he can heal once a year. And I already answered that.

Reading the beginning of this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/3/) description of the Cauldron ritual, perhaps it happens a little more regularly than you and Xurre think? It says there that the Witch Elves bathe in blood "after a great and bloody battle" with no mention of Death Night.

Also, if the Hags can only bathe in the Cauldron of Blood once a year on Death Night, then why do they eventually need to bathe "more and more often in the blood cauldrons" to stop themselves turning into withered old crones? Sounds like they don't have to wait for Death Night to come around once a year to me.

...and if you want the quote directly from the site:

After a great and bloody battle, the Witch Elves bathe in cauldrons of blood. By foul sorceries and the sacrifice of captives their bodies are renewed in the warm cauldron. The life-energy of their victims passes into the Witch Elves so that they remain forever young and beautiful. As the years pass, many Witch Elves die in battle and also during the dangerous bridal rites of Khaine, but some live for many centuries. As they grow old they must bathe more and more often in the blood cauldrons, for if they do not their lithe and lustful bodies become bent and cold, beauty turns to foulness, and laughter to a thin and ugly cackle.

[Sinfjotle]

So it isn't once a year, but in celebration of great battles.

That isn't helping you.

[Serke lasse]

Let's quickly recap how fantasy magic works. There is generic magic and then there is specific magic. Generic magic can produce just about any effect but usually has less power. Specific magic has a certain theme. Specific magic is restricted to its theme but it is usually more powerful within its domain then generic magic.

But this isn't Generic fantasy magic MMO its Warhammer.

All magic in Warhammer flows from the warp. There isn't any "preistly" magic, its warp energy that is channeled via ritual. Humans and other lesser races are limited to specific "themes" because they will be corrupted by the warp if they try to use too much.

Elfs, Lizardmen, and Slann are the only ones that can use all 8 winds to cast spells without being corrupted. A Slann fireball will be *much* more powerful than a human Bright Wizard's. Plus the Slann can do much, much more. Same with Elfs and Lizardmen, but to a lesser extent.

In Warhammer lore spellcasters specilize because they are weaker, and will never be able to match spellcasters not shackeled by such weakness. In the MMO for class balance reasons a Bright wizard will toss a bigger fireball, but that is to make the game balanced. In Warhammer Fantasy a Human Wizard that has mastered his college of magic is about equal to a elf wizard just finishing up his apprenticeship.

[Estebar]

So it isn't once a year, but in celebration of great battles.

That isn't helping you. Well, it is, because it proves that Hags are rejuvenated much more frequently than once a year on Death Night. It helps me because it proves your point wrong on that account.

The fact that Khaine has the potential to do it is the important fact here.

I'm not asking for a sect of Khaine-worshipping life-drainers to give the same rejuvenating effects as the Cauldron of Blood. No-one is being given immortality. No one is being made any younger or more attractive than they already are in battle. None of the other Healer/Support classes are anywhere near as powerful as the Cauldron of Blood by any means. And of course a ritual a which creates the Druchii equivalent of the fountain of youth is going to be painstakingly complex and effortful. I'm not suggesting that the fountain of youth is provided on the battlefield.

I'm saying that a sect of Khaine-worshippers who drain the life out of the enemy, taking their lives away from them, is entirely plausible. Using that drained life to sustain themselves is also plausible, but stands as a secondary purpose to the actual taking of life which Khaine would approve of - or rather that the Elves could make Khaine approve of where some would expect him not to. It's a loophole which Elves would happily take advantage of, in the same way that being the medium between the daemon-crawler Anchan-Rogar and his prey gives you soul energy to restore your wounds.

[Lord Tareq]

Well, it is, because it proves that Hags are rejuvenated much more frequently than once a year on Death Night. It helps me because it proves your point wrong on that account.

You are overestimating the achievements of the Dark Elves. The Cauldrons are only used when the temple fights in force, and there are very little cauldrons left. This is basically only when they invade Ulthuan, and perhaps the occasional large raid into Lustria or Invasion by Northern Chaos worshippers. Perhaps this results in another nice bath in the cauldron once every decade. Woohoo, much more frequently indeed.:rolleyes:

[Estebar]

You are overestimating the achievements of the Dark Elves. The Cauldrons are only used when the temple fights in force, and there are very little cauldrons left. This is basically only when they invade Ulthuan, and perhaps the occasional large raid into Lustria or Invasion by Northern Chaos worshippers. Perhaps this results in another nice bath in the cauldron once every decade. Woohoo, much more frequently indeed.:rolleyes: Again, how frequently Brides bathe in blood wasn't the central point of my argument at all. I'm talking about a completely different sect.
However, on that point, if the Hags need to bathe more and more frequently to preserve their youth and beauty then there must be an active choice in how often they choose to use the Cauldron in the first place.

But, as I said, how frequently a bunch of youth-obsessed crones bathe isn't important here. It's that one way or another, the Lord of Murder has the potential to rejuvenate his followers in a grand Fountain of Youth ritual. That isn't the kind of scale I'm suggesting here. No one is getting their youth and beauty restored by a Khaine-worshipping Healer/Support class. The class is simply keeping the frenzied fanatics cutting and stabbing away by taking life from someone else, and spitting that stolen life back out again for his/her brethren to feed upon.

[Ranti]

Again, how frequently Brides bathe in blood wasn't the central point of my argument at all. I'm talking about a completely different sect.



And there is the fundamental issue. Witch elfs, hags, assassins, and executioners are the only sects that we know of that are worshipers of khaine? what lore backing does this have other than extreme imagination and massive amounts of extrapolation?

[Sindal]

And there is the fundamental issue. Witch elfs, hags, assassins, and executioners are the only sects that we know of that are worshipers of khaine? what lore backing does this have other than extreme imagination and massive amounts of extrapolation?

the amount of exageration is an opinion first of all as I see it as being the next step in the Khaine evolution chain.

Second of all, What lore backing do any of the sects have in the lore before they are put in it other then imagination and extrapolation? None, thats the entire point, the lore is a fluid thing its not a set in stone thing. There are different editions of army books that prove that point. If it were set in stone there would be one. There are 6 going on 7.

What basis in lore did No male Sorc have before the prophecy was added? None, creativity, imagination etc and it came to be.

[Ranti]

the amount of exageration is an opinion first of all as I see it as being the next step in the Khaine evolution chain.

Second of all, What lore backing do any of the sects have in the lore before they are put in it other then imagination and extrapolation? None, thats the entire point, the lore is a fluid thing its not a set in stone thing. There are different editions of army books that prove that point. If it were set in stone there would be one. There are 6 going on 7.

What basis in lore did No male Sorc have before the prophecy was added? None, creativity, imagination etc and it came to be.

The fundamental difference is, this is using the IP to make a good representation of it in a MMO setting

An entirely new sect invented just for war seems 1) unnecessary and 2) adds a disconnect between WH IP and WAR.

Why make a new class when there are already such a wonderful abundance of classes in the DE repertoire?

[Sindal]

The fundamental difference is, this is using the IP to make a good representation of it in a MMO setting

An entirely new sect invented just for war seems 1) unnecessary and 2) adds a disconnect between WH IP and WAR.

Why make a new class when there are already such a wonderful abundance of classes in the DE repertoire?

because GW and Mythic did not feel there was a class that could fit the support class and be loyal to the IP?

Arguably Sorc could have been done but its possible it was a RDPS class all along and possibly that was Mythic, possibly that was GW.

[Thrakkesh]

because GW and Mythic did not feel there was a class that could fit the support class and be loyal to the IP?

Arguably Sorc could have been done but its possible it was a RDPS class all along and possibly that was Mythic, possibly that was GW.

Which doesn't so much mean that there's going to be some new Khainite. I could just as easily see some sort of 'Dark Adept' using foul sorceries in order to renew life and imbue it's subjects with raw energy, that kinda thing, or perhaps one who wields the raw Aethyr in a distinctly personal way. But that's pretty rampant speculation.

Not saying I disagree, just pointing out that it doesn't necessairly mean Khaine=shoe in.

[Estebar]

An entirely new sect invented just for war seems 1) unnecessary and 2) adds a disconnect between WH IP and WAR.

Why make a new class when there are already such a wonderful abundance of classes in the DE repertoire? Because any of the existing classes are going to have to be horribly bent out shape, and either the fans or GW are going to feel insulted. Which ones were you thinking of? Beastmaster with medicine-spewing Hydra? Corsair with seaweed bandages? "No sex but lots of sexual healing" Anointed? Or this new pole-dancing "I'm not a Zealot" Shade shaman which has just popped up?

Why invent the Raven Host when the northern tribes know Tzeentch as Tchar the Great Eagle in the lore? Why bother inventing a new warhost of Tzeentch when there are already powerful ones existing in the lore such as the Cabal? Why bother creating Tchar'Zanek when they could easily have used Egrimm Van Horstmann (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/special-characters/5/)?

[Thrakkesh]

Why invent the Raven Host when the northern tribes know Tzeentch as Tchar the Great Eagle? Why bother inventing a new warhost of Tzeentch when there are already powerful ones existing in the lore such as the Cabal? Why bother creating Tchar'Zanek when they could easily have used Egrimm Van Horstmann (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/special-characters/5/)?

Well, technically they already created a new house and new 'hero' to play, so we've already neatly adressed that. (House Ulthorian is the house being used, not Har Garenth or Naggaroth or whatever, and I don't believe I've ever heard of the house before).

We're talking about the people that will be inhabiting the battle world, not the generals leading it. If really wanna mince words, most normal Warhammer games (you know, the ones played on the Tabletop?) are made up of totally made-up Lords and Heroes and general, which is analogue. I also have some personal issues with writing up this whole backstory about a treacherous house that's working on power plays to usurp Malekith (which explains male sorcerors rather neatly) that currently has only one class that actually represents that ambition, but don't mind me.

Again, just pointing that out for levity's sake.

[Estebar]

Well, technically they already created a new house and new 'hero' to play, so we've already neatly adressed that. (House Ulthorian is the house being used, not Har Garenth or Naggaroth or whatever, and I don't believe I've ever heard of the house before).

We're talking about the people that will be inhabiting the battle world, not the generals leading it. If really wanna mince words, most normal Warhammer games (you know, the ones played on the Tabletop?) are made up of totally made-up Lords and Heroes and general, which is analogue. I also have some personal issues with writing up this whole backstory about a treacherous house that's working on power plays to usurp Malekith (which explains male sorcerors rather neatly) that currently has only one class that actually represents that ambition, but don't mind me.

Again, just pointing that out for levity's sake. All characters will be a part of the Raven Host. The Zealot wears a raven's black feathers. The imagery is distinctly associated with the raven, yet in the lore Tchar is the Great Eagle, and the Cabal is an existing well-organised group.

I think you missed my point. Mythic enjoys personalising their take on the Warhammer World. There's a quote floating around which talks about several existing sects of Khaine as well as the Temple. Mythic is allowed some creative license as long as GW gives a nod of approval about it. Mythic is, therefore, free to create this new class if they cannot find anything in the existing lore which meets their demands and which GW would feel comfortable having altered into a Healer/Support class. Nothing so far has seemed more likely than anything else at this point.

[Thrakkesh]

All characters will be a part of the Raven Host. The Zealot wears a raven's black feathers. The imagery is distinctly associated with the raven, yet in the lore Tchar is the Great Eagle, and the Cabal is an existing well-organised group.

I think you missed my point. There's a quote floating around which talks about several existing sects of Khaine. Mythic is allowed some creative license as long as GW gives a nod of approval about it. Mythic is, therefore, free to create this character if they cannot find anything in the existing lore which meets their demands and which GW would feel comfortable having altered.

Mmmmmm. I think I get your point just fine, I'm just not seeing it the same way you do. I'm not sure how I can explain this accurately, but what you're suggesting sounds a bit more like having Chaos worship a very different god as opposed to, essentially a cult of Tzeentch (because one of the big things about Chaos is that every Chaos god is worshipped in a myrid of ways, including fringe cults and everything in between). If I were to translate it into Druchii terms, the 'Raven Host' is merely another 'House of Tzeentch' and what you're suggesting is different. That's the point I was trying to make.

The difference in Dark Elf society is in their political dealings, not so much the Khaine-worshipping part, but it's changing one without really changing the other, and I'm kind of bothered by that. I don't want an over-influence of Khaine, essentially (and the changes that come with it) because I really think the meat is the dog-eat-dog world of Dark Elf society. I'm not saying that creating another Khaine worshipper is barred, I just think there are better things they could do with this character class, so to speak.

Regardless of how the temple feels, Dark Elf society isn't all about Khaine, ya know?

[Estebar]

Personally, I'm not enjoying their selection of Dark Elf classes so far. It hardly covers the Dark Elf army in any sort of neat summary.

The High Elves was done well. Nice and simple. It was practically chosen for the devs already. Swordmaster, Mage, Shadow Warrior and (presumably) White Lion. Most of the major iconic bases covered and a nice balance of magic, archery and martial skill among the classes.

Dark magic and the Temple of Khaine are a given, as is some kind of armoured spikey warrior, but things would've been so much easier is the Sorceress had taken that healer role and either the Beastmaster or Shade had brought the group up to four with a lowborn class.

At this point, I agree, the Dark Elves risk seeming too overly-dependant on either sorcery or religion with this fourth class. But, if I was going to make a decision on which of the two I'd want to go with, it would be religion. Worship of Khaine is what distinctly defines the difference between High and Dark Elves seeing as they both worship the same god but in very different ways. We already have a magic-heavy Destruction race in Chaos, and the God of Sorcery shouldn't have any more competition than necessary in that department. Plus, magic and Elves is so overdone in fantasy settings. Elves have a unique relationship with gods in the Warhammer setting which should be explored in greater detail.

[Kaeldor]

The fundamental difference is, this is using the IP to make a good representation of it in a MMO setting

An entirely new sect invented just for war seems 1) unnecessary and 2) adds a disconnect between WH IP and WAR.

Why make a new class when there are already such a wonderful abundance of classes in the DE repertoire?

Because as a developer you might want to put something into the game which is really your own, not only an interpretation of already existing things. And the dark elves could just have been that chance. The TT and existing lore for DE just doesn't have a healer type. They might just have thought "let's invent something new and cool". I really don't know if a Khaine-healer should/would be that but, blood as such is as much a symbol of life as death. : )

[mongoose]

Wohoo! So much to cover and I'm feeling tenacious this morning! :rolleyes:

So settle in and get comfortable because this is gonna be a long one :mrgreen:

Not really. Khaine murders people in every way possible through his followers, is that correct? And each of his aspects is a method of murder turned into an art form. One method of murdering someone is, presumably, slowly draining them of their life for one's own sustenance - whether that be through eating them, drinking their blood, stealing their food/money/shelter, or absorbing their soul. Many types of insects, animals and creatures do it, and even some selfish/greedy/desperate humans are driven to it sometimes. It's one way of killing someone, is it not? Just as instantly killing someone, by lopping off someones head as an Executioner for instance, is also an aspect of Khaine. And Dark Elves would want to take full advantage of it. It's committing murder. The sustenance part comes second to the actual taking life from another person. I fail to see how that couldn't be one of Khaine's aspects.

I can buy that sort of explanation as being one possible aspect of Khaine. HOWEVER....what you are suggesting as the end result, "healing" is still making a huge leap in logic. I could see those who practiced this aspect becoming frenzied, invigorated, full of blood lust......basically giving them the power to be better killers but most certainly not being healed. It would be similar to taking a powerful drug and that "drug" fuels their inner fire and ignites their passion to kill.

Once again my explanation seems to fit what Khaine is all about much better than your version that has him turning blood into healing as an ordinary, every day event.


By that reasoning, shouldn't the Executioners undermine the Witch Elves? They use a much longer blade in the draich, they wear armour to protect themselves and they kill in a single blow. But the Witch Elves manage to retain their uniqueness because of their fighting style and unique background. Frenzy, poisons, combat drugs, near-nudity, female gender and eternal youth are their thing. No one will take that away from them. I will discuss this further down.

No they wouldn't because worshiping a specific aspect of Khaine doesn't give the Executioners any special authority to make that aspect more important than the singular power the Witch Elves are given to preside over Khaine's sacred rites and rituals. A Disciple on the other hand puts them in a clear position of some real authority OVER the Witch Elves because of being given direct and divine power.....something neither the Witch Elves, Assassins, Executioners or even the Hags themselves don't get. If you cant see the difference between divine gifts and how that puts this Disciple in a unique and special position in the Temple, undermining the power of the true priestesses of Khaine vs just different ways of killing (which is what you are comparing) then you are beyond rational discussion.


Which "guys" are you talking about? I'm using the term 'renegades' because Xurre was saying that she would consider Healing Khaine-worshippers renegade from the Temple of Khaine because they would go against everything the Temple stands for and undermine the Witch Elves. I agree with Garok. Judging by their description (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/10/), I'd say that the Executioners had some distinction from the Temple itself. But it doesn't matter how well-connected the Executioners are to the Temple. They have enough distinction from Khaine's other worshippers to make sure neither class has their toes tread on. Life-drainers of Khaine are just as distinctive from Witch Elves. A sect which worships Khaine in his aspect as "The Ravenous Beast", endlessly hungry for life, hunting for blood and defying death in the process in desperation, might look beastly, degenerate, and entirely different to the Witch Elves in demeanor, motivation, and methods of restoration. You have to remember that on a battlefield, putting a bandage on someone doesn't make them any younger or prettier - it just makes them able to fight that much longer.

How about this quote from the 6th ed book......"Each of our cities has a temple and the rulers are required to pay a tithe to the Hag ruling over the Witch Elves within the temple"

So its very clear that all of Naggronds cities have temples of Khaine and that they are ALL ruled over by a Hag.....including Har Ganeth. Just because this city it devoted to a particular aspect doesn't lessen the authority of the Hags or the Witch Elves to preside over that temple, even in Har Ganeth. The Executioners can still choose to worship him in this way and I'm sure the Witch Elves have to even cater to them and whatever special eccentricities this aspect might entail but that still makes the Executioners simple worshipers and the Brides STILL the priestesses and ruling body of the cult.

In fact there hasnt been a single mention of anyone other than the Witch Elves who hold a position of power in the temple. You would think that if a Disciple who uses Khaines power to heal people or any other group with authority was it there somewhere it would be montioned......just ONCE. But no, its ALWAYS sisterhood, priestesses, Hags, Witch Elves who are doing everything. Curious. :roll:


Plus, I made a point earlier (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=574922&postcount=49) about the relationship between Elves and gods. As Paul Barnett once said when introducing Elves into WAR - "They're Elves, and they can do anything they bloody well like." Elves already know that gods are just another manifestation of drive and emotion within the Aethyr, like magic, and have learnt to control that to suit their needs. The High Elves created a whole pantheon of gods to suit every aspect of Ulthuan society. The Dark Elves took one of those gods, rejecting the others, and reinvented him as something much more violent, and extended him into 1,000 aspects with presumably 1,000 secret names so that Khaine could be used in every aspect of Naggaroth society in helping the Druchii be avenged against their kin.

First off you know better than to use ANYTHING Paul says as canon and fact. This is the guy who claimed that Skaven would be a 3rd faction of all things :rolleyes: The list of the silly things Paul has said over the last two years would be as long as my arm and renders whatever he says as at least highly suspect and at most crap he makes up on the spur of the moment.

To use your idea though...you cant have it both ways. You cant have the Elves making up a bunch of fictitious gods to suit their own needs and also then to give these gods divine power over them that they need to pray to to get blessings from. If the Dark Elves are in control as you claim then they can use that power as they see fit without the pretense of needing to go through Khaine to get power. I could see most of the other Durchii buying into this but NOT Malekith and Morathi but yet both of them do pray to Khaine as an actual god. (especially Morathi to regain her beauty through the cauldron)

So which is it?

Is Khaine just a made up construct to further the plans and desires of the Dark Elves? If so then this god is merely a hollow figurehead that has no real power to bestow and its the Dark Elves like Morathi who have the "true" power.

Or is Khaine an actual god and distributes HIS power as he sees fit and in a manner befitting what he is.........the God of Murder (among other synomous titles) You worship him and you gain certain small boons from him but he is a jealous and selfish god that doesn't give his power out freely and most certainly doesn't come in the form of closing open wounds and bringing the dead back to life.


It was discussed elsewhere that MMO death does not necessarily have to considered real death. It's more like being broken and battered, falling into a state of unconsciousness. You don't think the fact that all the Dark Elf classes are going to be constantly respawning anyway kind of undermines how essential the Hag Queen's eternal youth is, and the Witch Elves' dedication to death - even their own? A healing Khaine-worshipping class is keeping his kin invigorated with a purpose to kill in a similar way to how Uriel creates those Riders, "murder given form" who endlessly hunt Malus with the intent of killing him even after they've been beaten down time and time again. This single-minded purpose of murder is reserved for the battlefield, presumably where Khaine is at his strongest, and this is where these Khaine-worshipping healers can prove their use. They do not provide immortality in the same way that Khaine does for the Hags and Hag Queens. They're simply forcing fellow followers to get back up and keep fighting in the same way that the Shaman orders his fellow Boyz to "Ged'up" cos the fight's not over yet.

No it doesn't have to be considered death but if it isn't death why is it labeled as such? and if there is no death then why is the revival method called specifically resurrection? So you can call it what you like but that doesn't change what it really is in the game.

But this is all beside the point and you know it. There are certain game mechanics that simply MUST be in the game for it to succeed, regardless of how much it doesn't mesh with how things should be. But these necessary evils don't have to be at direct odds with the lore which is why we loreists were pushing so hard for the Sorceress to be the support class. It makes MUCH more sense that the "necessary evils" are performed through Dark Magic rather than try to turn the Dark Elves most revered symbol into something he is not; a god of healing and resurrection.

So you can try to twist the logic to make it suit things but we both know it didn't have to be that way as you yourself have admitted in the past.


Reading the beginning of this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/3/) description of the Cauldron ritual, perhaps it happens a little more regularly than you and Xurre think? It says there that the Witch Elves bathe in blood "after a great and bloody battle" with no mention of Death Night.

Also, if the Hags can only bathe in the Cauldron of Blood once a year on Death Night, then why do they eventually need to bathe "more and more often in the blood cauldrons" to stop themselves turning into withered old crones? Sounds like they don't have to wait for Death Night to come around once a year to me.

Well that quote is very interesting because it seems to contradict the other information we have but maybe Morathi only needs to bathe once a year because it is the true Cauldron? I can see the two pieces of info working with one another without there being conflict but as others have pointed out, they still have to wait for times of great bloodletting to perform this ritual.


If that were true, it would support my argument that it is not the god's motivations which are important. It is the motivations of the Elves who worship him which are the driving force. The god can be manipulated any way the Elves see fit. For all we know, none of the Cauldrons of Blood might be gifts from Khaine! Perhaps they were all artificially created by Hotek, the renegade priest of Vaul, at Morathi's command to keep her competition dependant and within her magical thrall. You don't think great big Cauldrons of Blood suddenly appearing "as gifts to the Brides from Khaine", and Morathi suddenly revealing one of her own as "the true Cauldron" all sounds a little far-fetched? Like I said, it's the Elves dictating the motivations of the god and not the other way around.

No, once again you are trying to say that if Khaine actually exists that the Elves can control him which I don't buy in the least. I can buy him being either a mere figurehead with Malekith and Morathi being the actual power (meaning is IS all about Dark magic) or that Khaine is an actual god and he dictates how his power is used, but I don't think for a second that the Elves can have any measure of control over an actual god.

So make a choice because you cant have your cake and eat it too.


This "180" came around because after the Sorcerer was implemented as the Ranged DPS class, and everyone starting pulling Dark Elf melee healers out of their asses, the Lorists trying to tip-toe around the lore as much as possible by making far-fetched classes outside of conventional spheres of magic and religion, and the MMOists sticking to their plan and going with what they've been saying all along, I went back, read over their arguments and thought, this is just a game. Just as Warhammer Fantasy Battle is just a game. And Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying is just a game. Lore changes ALL THE TIME. Games Workshop is particularly infamous for making changes to their lore all the freakin' time. Over in Warhammer 40,000, a lot of fans were disgusted with how the Necrons were forced into the lore, re-writing a whole bunch of Eldar lore in the process.

So instead of sticking to your guns, regardless of the outcome, you decided to flipflop and are now trying to make the more far fetched position sound convincing just because GW might change things? Considering I know you believed in our position a month or two back I'm pretty disappointed you would do this. Not because you saw that the opposing point of view was somehow better but only because if GW does change things you will be on the winning side. You are entitled to do that of course but it is unfortunate you aren't willing to stand by your previous convictions no matter what happens.

I have always said......just because GW does change established history doesn't mean they should. They could keep what is known and add to it without having to rewrite the past.


How do you think people felt when Games Workshop suddenly made Caledor's Prophecy? Some of us loved having our Dark Elf Sorcerors nice and legal in 4th/5th Edition with their own artwork and models and imagery. Suddenly, they get booted out just so Malekith can get some big-haired bints in bikinis as his harem of ghetto-hoochy-mamas.

Well, unlike what is being suggested with this Disciple, the prophecy was an addition to the lore. Sure it changed things but it did so in a logical manner. Malekiths seers tell him of this potential threat and so Malekith logically changes up how certain things work.

The healing Khanite class people are proposing is an attempt to ***jam something in where it doesn't belong. There is no logical reason to do it and I know you know this is true no matter how much you want to deny or ignore it.

Sure GW and Mythic can do it. They can unseat the absolute authority of the Witch Elves within the temple, they can give divine power to another super secret and might I add, non-existent group and not give this power to those really deserving of it, the Witch Elves, they can also turn Khaine into a god who passes out healing at the slightest drop of blood being spilt. They can do ALL that and more but just because they can do it and might even actually do it, don't try to deny that somehow makes it the right thing to do.


The game changes all the time. I'll mourn it just as much as the rest of you, but I prefer to stay positive and welcome new ideas from fans. Forums should be about encouraging creativity - that's what Warhammer and roleplaying is all about - not simply about arguing, calling each other names and tossing each other's ideas into the trash can. Perhaps you and Xurre should become Witch Hunters instead, mongoose, seeing as you're so ready to purge ideas that show the slightest contrast with your own beliefs. Otherwise, move on! And accept that lore should never be left to stagnate. I like Witch Elves, and I don't think they're going to be ruined in the process.

Yes forums are about encouraging creativity but they are ALSO about putting forth opposing points of view and discussing those differing points. And you claim that its not about tossing others ideas in the trash can but isnt that EXACTLY what you are telling us to do with our opinions? How did you put it........."move on!" In other words, If we don't agree with you we shouldn't be allowed to continue talking about it because its not being creative or positive? Yeah, nice one there.

So just because you are willing to abandon your position that somehow makes us (and in particular myself) Witch Hunters that cant accept change? :rolleyes: I'm always willing to listen to and even change my position (and this has happened to me on a number of occasions weather you know about it or not ;)) if I feel someone has shown me a better way of thinking but you sure haven't accomplished that. In fact your flipflopping on this entire issue simply because its a game, thus making it unworthy of holding to a position, really diminishes the respect I had for you. :???:

Just to be clear.....I can accept change as long as it adds to things and makes logical sense. If they are going to change things for no reason then I cant support that way of thinking and even if this does indeed happen it doesn't change my opinion that they shouldn't have done it.

Using this analogy, if Khaine's essence is death, murder and the spilling of blood, then why does he give new life to his most devoted followers? Shouldn't he strike down his followers for wanting to live longer if all he knows his death? Instead, he provides them with the kind of immortality that completely contradicts his own essence.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. What you should ask is, why dosent he grant this power of "life" to MORE of his devoted followers? As I have shown many times this "life" he gives is a temporary condition and does nothing to hold back the true clock of time, heal a broken bone or bring the dead back to life. The quote you found about the Hags bathing more and more often only strengthens my position because if Khaine was as benovelant and "life" giving as you would have us believe then why does he not just make them truly young again? Are you saying that this isnt within the Gods power? If he can heal a wound and bring the dead back to life as you claim then surely restoring true youth shouldnt be out of the question. ;)

[Lord Tareq]

Everytime someone posts a monstrous post like that, a baby Witch Elf dies :-|

[mongoose]

I broke this into two posts on purpose because of length and differing topics ;)


I have a semi question/comment as well though. My understanding is that Khaine made the underworld to steal souls from his brother or some such correct? If he were jealous and wanted souls for his underworld why would it be so crazy for him to give clerical powers to allow his warriors to send more souls to his realm?


Yes, if we are to believe the Humans and their worship of Morr who the claim he is Khaines older brother then Khaine created his own underworld in an attempt to steal souls from him (talk about spite!)

If we were talking about another god, yes, it might be conceivable but thats just it, we are talking about Khaine. It might seem appropriate for a god to do it but for Khaine its contrary to the way he functions so you have to look at it from his perspective and not that of just any god.

So instead of the thinking, "healing allows that person to bring me more souls", you look at it as.....I only care about souls. Once they are mine I will not risk giving them back to lose them. I will always have followers who will sacrifice in my name so I have no need to worry about healing one for just as she falls in battle, another will surely pick up where they left off and continue the bloodletting.

Khaine gets JUST as many souls in the process this way but he dosent have to lose a soul or dole out his divine power through healing.


As to info about the Human followers of Khaine, all I could find was a single source and I have zero clue how official it is because I couldnt find any supporting material.......

THE CULT OF LAMEHK

To those who know such things, Lamehk is the Slavemaster of the Third Hell, which is perhaps an immortal plain of Khaine's realm. Daemonologists and other sorcerers of Dark Magic frequently invoke his name in their conjurations. To the Cult, Lamehk is a God but to others he is either an aspect of Khaine as the slave master of human souls or a Greater Daemon.

Behind the harmless exterior of a merchant house, located in the district of Guilderveld in the city-port of Marienburg, the Cult of Lamehk operates secretly. It is very rich, although the members do their very best to conceal its wealth. The business buys and sells like any other merchant business and also lends money to those in need of it, including individuals or other businesses. However, it has a growing reputation for unpleasantness should anyone who owes them money not pay their dues on time. They tend to charge large rates of interest and people who cannot pay are often approached by thugs to 'persuade' them to. If no money is forthcoming then another body is found floating in the docks, which is often ritually slain. Because a body floating in the docks is not an unusual sight, blame is never apportioned to anyone in particular; the local thug will do as far as the dock watch is concerned.

The Cult of Lamehk seeks acquire enough wealth to gain a seat on the Marienburg Directorate. They do this by buying businesses throughout Marienburg, often whether the owners like it or not, and making friends with as many powerful and rich people as possible. They have a grand scheme: to gain a seat on the Directorate, accumulate other business interests at the expense of their rival Merchant Houses, and then control Marienburg itself - turning it into a hive of evil.

The Cult's practices are one would expect for one which worships power, selfishness, greed and murder. Anyone who crosses their path are given no mercy and at certain times in a year someone is selected to be a sacrifice for Lamehk. The preferred choice is a wealthy merchant or minor noble, someone with money, but a street dreg will do almost as well if no-one else is available.

Everytime someone posts a monstrous post like that, a baby Witch Elf dies :-|

lol, Sorry Tareq but I couldnt not rebut Estebars post, especially considering all the yes men who agreed with it.

And dont worry, they were just a sacrifice to the Cauldron so its all good :twisted:

[Selendor]

Actually Mongoose, Elves do shape and control their gods. Just as the Elven mages understand how to shape and control the winds of magic in ways that are beyond the understanding of other races, so do they shape their gods. They created their own Pantheon as well as Slaanesh, and they use them without being at their mercy the way the human followers of Chaos are. I'll bust out my Liber Chaotica when I get home and quote the exact passage, but what it basically comes down to is...yes, they really are better then you. They're also better than gods.

Doesn't being an Elf kick ?

[Zoatibix]

/throws another babe into the cauldron and munches more popcorn...

But if the Elves can 'shape' their gods conciously...why is Khaine so dangerous to the High Elves. Why don't they make him with a little ON/OFF switch? Raving psycho one minute, quiet as a little lambkin the next.

I mean, isn't that part of military training, the ability to hone the killer instinct and switch it on and off like that? Instead they see him as one badass dangerous Mother*LOVER* whom they only worship right before a battle.

Also, the Druchii didn't need anything else offered to them by the rest of the Elven Pantheon. They took only one god, the god of blood, death, war, murder, etc.

[Xurré]

Worship of Khaine is what distinctly defines the difference between High and Dark Elves seeing as they both worship the same god but in very different ways.
I'm not sure I'd but the worship of Khaine as the distinction between the high elves and the dark elves. I mean that whole Khaine thing only happened after the split had already happened and the dark elves had moved to Naggaroth. Dark Magic, on the other hand, stands pretty much at the very, very beginning of the breakup and is for a large part responsible for it.

As such I think the difference in them using High Magic and Dark Magic is at least as defining.

Plus, magic and Elves is so overdone in fantasy settings.
I'd say that if anything is overdone then it's dark elves and some evil deity. If you want to make the druchii stand out from the drow then you have to make certain that they don't rely on their evil deity to provide them with everything. Khaine is great for showing the druchii murderous mindset, but when they start relying on him to get their powers and everything then is when you start to march squarely into Lolth territory.

Druchii should be independent of whatever deities they follow, reveling in that which the deity stands for, but relying on their own power.



Because as a developer you might want to put something into the game which is really your own, not only an interpretation of already existing things.
They already but in a support class they invented themselves: the Zealot. And just as people might complain about Destruction already having far more gender-restricted classes than Order one could argue that they already have too many invented classes too.


Everytime someone posts a monstrous post like that, a baby Witch Elf dies :-|
Don't worry, she didn't suffer for more than a few days.


- Xurré

[mongoose]

Actually Mongoose, Elves do shape and control their gods. Just as the Elven mages understand how to shape and control the winds of magic in ways that are beyond the understanding of other races, so do they shape their gods. They created their own Pantheon as well as Slaanesh, and they use them without being at their mercy the way the human followers of Chaos are. I'll bust out my Liber Chaotica when I get home and quote the exact passage, but what it basically comes down to is...yes, they really are better then you. They're also better than gods.

Doesn't being an Elf kick ?

So lemme get this straight......the Elves created Slaanesh, a Chaos God that supposedly existed before the Elves were even a glimmer in the Old Ones eyes? :rolleyes:

If the Elves created Slaanesh then why was Morathi, one of the original Elves, a captive of Chaos and in need of rescue from Chaos/Slaanesh by the first Phoenix King? How could you be trapped by something you "supposedly" created AND have power over?

Sorry it dosent make a lot of sense. :confused:

[Rowhin]

So lemme get this straight......the Elves created Slaanesh, a Chaos God that supposedly existed before the Elves were even a glimmer in the Old Ones eyes? :rolleyes:

If the Elves created Slaanesh then why was Morathi, one of the original Elves, a captive of Chaos and in need of rescue from Chaos/Slaanesh by the first Phoenix King? How could you be trapped by something you "supposedly" created AND have power over?

Sorry it dosent make a lot of sense. :confused:

He probably refers to the passage "Echoes of the Birth" in the Liber Chaotica in which Richter describes the birth of Slaanesh. The Elves are mentioned as Asur in the passage, but a race named "The Elders" which eventually create Slaanesh. Richter draws some comparisons between the Elders and the Asur, though it becomes clear that they could not be exactly the samre race. They are very similar to the Elves though...maybe they are Elves in some parallel universe connected throught the Aethyr. Richter mentions it wasn't "in his world or in his time". But it's a confusing passage, I mixed it up the first time I read it, too.

[Jinsei]

EDIT: image is gone, but I'll edit this anyway.

[mongoose]

EDIT: image is gone, but no need to discuss it.

[Estebar]

Oh dear god, that post is monstrous. :(

To save people the agony of having to go through that again, I've made my responses in bullet points whereever possible.

Yes, this drain life technique could make drainers frenzied, invigorated, full of blood lust, fuelling their inner fire and igniting their passion to kill. But, if you've ever taken such powerful drugs before, you'd also know that it would numb them to pain in their frenzy. Very similar to how the Goblin Shaman heals with WAAAGH! energy. Greenskins aren't that likely to heal each other in the first place, so their healing seems to work more in the medium of keeping the boys going in the heat of the WAAAGH!. Try not to think of healing too literally in its translation into the MMO.

Never said Executioners challenged the Temple's authority. I was using the fact that Executioners were better armoured, used better blades and were more skilled at instant kills than the Brides, not any real authority. I'm also fully aware of the Temple of Har Ganeth. I was simply saying that the Executioners had some distinction from the Temple because they were a warrior-sect trained within the city itself, rather than just within the Temple.

If Executioners can have advantages over Witch Elves, but still be considered lesser in power because they worship a single aspect of Khaine rather than be married to the entire god, why can't it work the same way for Khaine-worshipping healers who also worship a single aspect? They have this life-draining technique BECAUSE they specialise in a single aspect of Khaine, just as Executioners specialise in decapitation skills because they specialise in Khaine aspect as the Executioner. Khaine-worshipping healers get to drain life and worship a fragment of a god...Witch Elves get to live forever wedded to the entire god. I don't think they're getting a rough deal here. They're only learning the ability to drain life through specialising in a single aspect of Khaine. What they do with that drained life afterwards is their own decision. I always saw it as sort of spitting it out at others or swallowing it down for him/herself.

...and who said it had to be "divine power" in the first place? In a Warhammer MMO setting where Caledor's Prophecy clearly doesn't exist (hello male Sorcerors), male Khaine-worshippers and non-Witch Elves are permitted using sorcery.

If you'd read the link I provided properly, you would have realised that the Paul Barnett quote wasn't the part I considered canon. THIS (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=407049&postcount=9) is the part that I consider canon. Hopefully if you read it this time, you'll realise that I can have my cake and eat it too. I think this is the section from the Liber Chaotica which you were referring to Selendor? Yes, you were mistaken about Slaanesh's birth. That part is actually talking about the Eldar creating Slaanesh in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. However, everything else you said was correct. The Elves do indeed shape the gods. This is how the Dark Elves managed to redesign Khaine in their own image.

The way debating teams work is that a topic is created, and positions of "FOR" and "AGAINST" are delegated randomly between two teams. In this way, the teams have to gather enough information to make convincing arguments for either side of the debate. When a line has been drawn so clearly and deeply in the sand as it has between Lorists and MMOists, most arguments have tended towards either side sitting with his arms crossed and eventually agreeing to disagree. As much as I enjoy the Warhammer lore, I'm not about to sit with my arms crossed and disparage every idea that comes my way on the forums. Thing is, there shouldn't be a winning and losing side on these forums. It's immature playground mentality where no-one likes to admit that they're wrong. The Dark Elf forums can go either of two ways: We can either sit around discouraging each other's ideas, or we can encourage each other to be creative. I'd like to see you try to create a class of your own rather than criticise every else's ideas for once, mongoose. We have come to the point where current Dark Elf lore fails us, and all we have left is guesswork and our own imagination. In the end, the class has already been chosen and we'll find out what it is in 15 days. One of the other classes is going to have its toes trodden on either way, so I'm prepared to just sit back, say to hell with the lore, and just start getting creative. I see no point in choosing sides on an argument which has valid points either way, unless you're just looking forward to the moment where you get to gloat or whine to your heart's content.

I'm not telling you to put your ideas in the trash because I acknowledge your opinions, and even agreed with them at one point. I'm just trying to encourage discussion, as I acknowledge that both sides have a valid opinion and points which I agree with. I still disagree with the Sorceror not being the Healer/Support class, but I've moved on. Moping, dwelling on it and lashing out at people who try to be creative in its wake is not the way I want to act on these forums

Finally....

you are beyond rational discussion. In fact your flipflopping on this entire issue simply because its a game, thus making it unworthy of holding to a position, really diminishes the respect I had for you. I find comments like these unnecessary and hurtful.

But if the Elves can 'shape' their gods conciously...why is Khaine so dangerous to the High Elves. Why don't they make him with a little ON/OFF switch? Raving psycho one minute, quiet as a little lambkin the next.

I mean, isn't that part of military training, the ability to hone the killer instinct and switch it on and off like that? Instead they see him as one badass dangerous Mother*LOVER* whom they only worship right before a battle. Well, they did give him an ON/OFF switch by keeping their own emotions in moderation, and training in the martial arts with as much discipline as possible. They need that dangerous side of Khaine there to serve as their potential in strength and fury in battle, and to remind them of what they could become if they're not careful.

[Xurré]

EDIT: image is gone, but still editing this.

[Lord Tareq]

EDIT: image is gone, but still editing this.

[Estebar]

Disciple of Rakarth? That better not be "Disciple of Khaine" or something like that.

Beyond that I maintain that just "Disciple" is still a horribly boring and uninspired name that could mean absolutely everything (and thus horribly unsuited as a classname which should at least give some idea of what the class is about). Well, Zealot wasn't much better considering everyone who follows Tzeentch is a Zealot of Chaos.

They have to make the invented class less impressive than the ones created by GW otherwise a bunch of MMO kids are gonna storm the GW stores asking for miniatures which don't exist.

[Xurré]

Well, Zealot wasn't much better considering everyone who follows Tzeentch is a Zealot of Chaos.

They have to make the invented class less impressive than the ones created by GW otherwise a bunch of MMO kids are gonna storm the GW stores asking for miniatures which don't exist.
How about, uh, just not invent a class to begin with? Seriously... the druchii background is not devoid of possible classes.


- Xurré

[Garok]

How about, uh, just not invent a class to begin with? Seriously... the druchii background is not devoid of possible classes.


- Xurré

Because nothing in the current background suggests any existing DE would "heal". Why gut an existing TT class and shoe horn it into a healer role, when you can make a new class and add something to the lore ?

[Estebar]

Which ones were you thinking of?

Beastmaster with medicine-spewing Hydra?
Corsair with seaweed bandages?
"No sex but lots of sexual healing" Anointed?
Assassin following Khaine's aspect as the Pacifist?
Or this new pole-dancing "I'm not a Zealot" Shade shaman which has just popped up? Perhaps a Harpy nymphomaniac! SHE SWOOPS... SHE SCORES!!! ;)

[Xurré]

Because nothing in the current background suggests any existing DE would "heal". Why gut an existing TT class and shoe horn it into a healer role, when you can make a new class and add something to the lore ?
How about a Sorceress who would fit the role perfectly in both abilities and in the general manipulative mindset of the class.

Just because this is the last class revealed doesn't mean we have to buy into the whole "but it was the only option" nonsense. Mythic painted themselves in a corner.


- Xurré

[mongoose]

Yes, this drain life technique could make drainers frenzied, invigorated, full of blood lust, fuelling their inner fire and igniting their passion to kill. But, if you've ever taken such powerful drugs before, you'd also know that it would numb them to pain in their frenzy. Very similar to how the Goblin Shaman heals with WAAAGH! energy. Greenskins aren't that likely to heal each other in the first place, so their healing seems to work more in the medium of keeping the boys going in the heat of the WAAAGH!. Try not to think of healing too literally in its translation into the MMO.

Well youre right and it could very well be as you described but I have a hard time believing that if they are associated with Khaine that it wouldnt be the god himself who gives them this mystical power, especially if they are worshiping him in this particular aspect. So how could someone NOT using Dark Magic accomplish such a purely magical act?


If Executioners can have advantages over Witch Elves, but still be considered lesser in power because they worship a single aspect of Khaine rather than be married to the entire god, why can't it work the same way for Khaine-worshipping healers who also worship a single aspect? They have this life-draining technique BECAUSE they specialise in a single aspect of Khaine, just as Executioners specialise in decapitation skills because they specialise in Khaine aspect as the Executioner. Khaine-worshipping healers get to drain life and worship a fragment of a god...Witch Elves get to live forever wedded to the entire god. I don't think they're getting a rough deal here. They're only learning the ability to drain life through specialising in a single aspect of Khaine. What they do with that drained life afterwards is their own decision. I always saw it as sort of spitting it out at others or swallowing it down for him/herself.

...and who said it had to be "divine power" in the first place? In a Warhammer MMO setting where Caledor's Prophecy clearly doesn't exist (hello male Sorcerors), male Khaine-worshippers and non-Witch Elves are permitted using sorcery.

Again this comes from MY belief that if such a thing will exist that they will be channeling this foul practice through Khaine to gain this ability. If such is not the case then you are correct.

Of course what are your feelings if indeed the power comes from Khaine himself? Dont you think that being given divine abilities such as actual healing and rezzing wouldnt undermine the very foundations of the temple, the Witch Elves an Hags?

I mean at that point why would anyone come to someone who merely kills in his name when you have a group that gets TRUE power from him. This would really turn the Witch Elves into second class clergy and merely just another militant sect of Khaine like the Assassins or Executioners.



If you'd read the link I provided properly, you would have realised that the Paul Barnett quote wasn't the part I considered canon. THIS (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=407049&postcount=9) is the part that I consider canon. Hopefully if you read it this time, you'll realise that I can have my cake and eat it too. I think this is the section from the Liber Chaotica which you were referring to Selendor? Yes, you were mistaken about Slaanesh's birth. That part is actually talking about the Eldar creating Slaanesh in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. However, everything else you said was correct. The Elves do indeed shape the gods. This is how the Dark Elves managed to redesign Khaine in their own image.

Well I have a problem with a quote like "the Elves can do anything the bloody well like" because we both know thats complete garbage.

But after reading that post through a couple times I am STILL not seeing how the Elves create Slaanesh.......

The main question posed by this information is how the Dark Elves have not totally succumb to the powers of Chaos but then it talks about:

"In this way, the simple deities that the eldar races had developed for themselves across millennia of evolution, suddenly stopped being mere concepts or items of faith, and became actual beings with immense power and independent identity - they truly were the first daemons, gods and angels of the Empyrean."

So basically some of the Chaos energies were turned into physical manifestations of certain thoughts and feelings by the Asur, turning mere metaphysical concepts into reality. This can also mean that the Chaos energies, to better relate to the beings on this world, adopted concepts familiar to the Asur to better relate with them. Dosent mean creation.

"But the Asur have never made good servants. Long before the collapse of the Slaan's Gateway, the Asur already had a strong understanding of magic and the basic laws governing how Chaos interacted with matter and intelligence. This knowledge allowed them to control many of the lesser Chaos entities, and form a more symbioticrelationship with some of the more ordered great entities. Without even realising what they were doing, the Asur began to impose their will and expectations onto some of these greater entities, forging them into benign deities that personified various aspects of the Asur's ideals, hopes and aspirations."

Here they forged relationships with the greater ORDERED entities and imposed their will on them. It says nothing about imposing their will on the greater CHAOTIC entities though because these entities would have not appealed the the Asur way of thinking.

"It did not matter that Asuryan personified all that was good and beautiful about the Asur as a race, He was still a god, and just as with the Gods of Chaos and their Champions, eventually His Purpose subsumed the will of His vessel. In time, Aenarion was consumed by feelings of duty towards his people, taking all their sorrows onto himself, and, with personal tragedy stacking atop racial murder, he eventually walked the path to oblivion. He drew the sword of Khaine, opening himself up to become a vessel for the war-god's power and will as well as Asuryan's. No mortal frame, however mighty, was designed to contain the conflicted spirits of two opposing deities. Not even Aenarion."

Now we have mention of the sword of Khaine. This implies that Khaine has been around long enough to create such powerful things which would probably make him older than Asuryan...but this is sheer speculation.

It does say that Khaine is definitely a WAR god though and war by its very definition would NOT be a "benign deity that personified various aspects of the Asur's ideals, hopes and aspirations" So this again would imply (to me) that even Khaine was not one of the Gods whom the Elves had a hand in creating through the imposing of their will, let alone a god like Slaanesh.

"Once the Chaos threat had been nullified and Aenarion had forevermore left the pages of Asur history, the people of Ulthuan chose to never again allow themselves to be possessed by their gods in the way that their first Phoenix King had done. To this day, though all the Elven Kindreds venerate and respect their individual gods, they do not dedicate themselves body and soul to their service - instead they treat and use all deities as sacred tools and icons to further their aims."

and this is very interesting because we KNOW that the Witch Elves do exactly what this highlit passage claims they would never do.......devote themselves, body and soul to Khaine. The high Elves might believe this way but clearly the Dark Elves have kicked this idea to the curb.

So Im not seeing anything in there about Slaanesh being created by anyone

To add to that we do know that even before the gates collapsed that the Old Ones fought with an ancient adversary that came through the gate later named Chaos. It could very well be that the 4 major gods of Chaos were formed (or coalesced) during this first war but I dont believe the Elves had a hand in "imposing their will" on any of them or Khaine for that matter.

I was incorrect about the Elves existence however.....they were there before Chaos arrived. :cool:

I'm not about to sit with my arms crossed and disparage every idea that comes my way on the forums. Thing is, there shouldn't be a winning and losing side on these forums. It's immature playground mentality where no-one likes to admit that they're wrong. The Dark Elf forums can go either of two ways: We can either sit around discouraging each other's ideas, or we can encourage each other to be creative. I'd like to see you try to create a class of your own rather than criticise every else's ideas for once, mongoose.

But again its ok to disparage my opinions and ideas? All Im doing it putting forth my personal thoughts but according to you I "should become Witch Hunters instead, mongoose, seeing as you're so ready to purge ideas that show the slightest contrast with your own beliefs. Otherwise, move on!"

This reads to me as if you are saying if I dont agree with someone I shouldnt post my PoV but instead should, as you say "move on"

And while I might not have come up with my own class I was VERY supportive of Both the Anointed idea (coming up with what I thought were logical reasons why they could actually work) complete with my own description of them and also Xurres idea for the SoulReaper thing. So please refrain from claiming that I have never been supportive on these forums and never open to contrasting points of view. Just because you might have read nothing but rebuttals from me dosent mean thats all I have ever done. ;)

These forums would be very boring indeed though if all we did was be supportive and never posted opposing viewpoints.

I'm not telling you to put your ideas in the trash because I acknowledge your opinions, and even agreed with them at one point. I'm just trying to encourage discussion, as I acknowledge that both sides have a valid opinion and points which I agree with. I still disagree with the Sorcerer not being the Healer/Support class, but I've moved on. Moping, dwelling on it and lashing out at people who try to be creative in its wake is not the way I want to act on these forums

So just because you have moved on it means that none of the rest of us are allowed to hold onto their convictions? Regardless of the outcome of this DE healer thing I will never believe that this made up POS GW and Mythic came up with is a good idea. You might think Im being stupid for holding onto this belief but I see it more as not giving in to what they have done......toss the lore into the garbage dump. I will hold to that position to the bitter end.

[Ganymed]

Disciple of Rakarth? That better not be "Disciple of Khaine" or something like that.

Beyond that I maintain that just "Disciple" is still a horribly boring and uninspired name that could mean absolutely everything (and thus horribly unsuited as a classname which should at least give some idea of what the class is about).


- Xurré

agree, disciple just sounds too ... ordinary.

so they did it (at least it looks like it): they invented a new class, melee healer, and the fact that its a disciple leads to the conclusion it will be a disciple of khaine.

but still, we cant be 100% sure, damn all this, the suspense is killing me :P

[Ganymed]

How about a Sorceress who would fit the role perfectly in both abilities and in the general manipulative mindset of the class.

Just because this is the last class revealed doesn't mean we have to buy into the whole "but it was the only option" nonsense. Mythic painted themselves in a corner.


- Xurré

as others said on these boards numerous times, maybe GW didnt approve of that? maybe they are quite happy with a newly invented class, and they'll add it in the new DE army book that is scheduled for end of next year?

noone got answers about that question, not as long as mythic and/or GW confirm if u are right, if I am right, or if we both are wrong.

the fact though that the class will be in game shows that GW is ok with that decision. though i know u dont give anything on GW anymore. :p

[Sinfjotle]

Obviously they're disciples and servants to the Witch Elves and try to make sure they can go on as much of a bloody rampage as possible using dark magic.

The irony of course would be delicious.

[Xurré]

as others said on these boards numerous times, maybe GW didnt approve of that?
I have a very hard time believing that they wouldn't approve of extending the Soul Stealer spell Sorceresses get to be more all-encompassing healing and in the same breath would agree on letting followers of the God of Murder go around healing others.

That reminds me of that old song "Star Trekkin' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCARADb9asE)": "We come in peace. Shoot to kill, shoot to kill." Only then in reverse ("We come to kill. Let me heal you, let me heal you.") :???:


- Xurré

[mongoose]

That reminds me of that old song "Star Trekkin' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCARADb9asE)": "We come in peace. Shout to kill, shoot to kill." Only then in reverse ("We come to kill. Let me heal you, let me heal you.") :???:


Ok, this is COMPLETELY OT but your post reminded me of this and I think this thread could use a bit of levity......If you havent seen it before you will DIE from laughter. :mrgreen:

<Click if you dare!> (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFR-8NVjw-k)

and before you ask.......yes this is totally real :shock: :lol:

[Thrakkesh]

Ok, this is COMPLETELY OT but your post reminded me of this and I think this thread could use a bit of levity......If you havent seen it before you will DIE from laughter. :mrgreen:

<Click if you dare!> (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFR-8NVjw-k)

and before you ask.......yes this is totally real :shock: :lol:

Damn you Mongoose.

I thought I had heard the last of this fragging thing.


I want two minutes of my LIFE back you stinking rat!

[Estebar]

Of course what are your feelings if indeed the power comes from Khaine himself? Dont you think that being given divine abilities such as actual healing and rezzing wouldnt undermine the very foundations of the temple, the Witch Elves an Hags?

I mean at that point why would anyone come to someone who merely kills in his name when you have a group that gets TRUE power from him. This would really turn the Witch Elves into second class clergy and merely just another militant sect of Khaine like the Assassins or Executioners. I think it says something in the 6th Edition Dark Elves army book about the Witch Elves being named "Witch Elves" after the day where the Priestesses of Khaine appeared at court as these enchantingly beautiful young warrior-maidens. The day where they revealed that Khaine gave them a fountain of youth, a chance at immortality, was the day that they were truly acknowledged as Khaine's most favoured devotees. If eternal youth isn't "Khaine true power" I don't know what is.


But after reading that post through a couple times I am STILL not seeing how the Elves create Slaanesh....... Two of us have already said that "Echoes of the Birth" referred to Warhammer 40,000 Eldar giving birth to Slaanesh, not Warhammer Fantasy Elves. It even says so in that quote of mine which you used: "I think this is the section from the Liber Chaotica which you were referring to Selendor? Yes, you were mistaken about Slaanesh's birth. That part is actually talking about the Eldar creating Slaanesh in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. However, everything else you said was correct."

Here they forged relationships with the greater ORDERED entities and imposed their will on them. It says nothing about imposing their will on the greater CHAOTIC entities though because these entities would have not appealed the the Asur way of thinking. ALL entities come from Chaos. The Aethyr is the Realm of Chaos. All Gods come from the Warp, which is the Aethyr, which is the Realm of Chaos. When it says 'greater ordered entities' it means the greater chaotic entities which had managed to manifest themselves into a more solid form of existence.

It does say that Khaine is definitely a WAR god though and war by its very definition would NOT be a "benign deity that personified various aspects of the Asur's ideals, hopes and aspirations" So this again would imply (to me) that even Khaine was not one of the Gods whom the Elves had a hand in creating through the imposing of their will, let alone a god like Slaanesh. What are you talking about? Of course the Elves created Khaine! He's part of their divine pantheon! They need him to be the 'Yang' to Asuryan's 'Yin'. The High Elves are all about balance, so one bloodthirsty god of war is required to be the other side of the coin to Asuryan's stand as a god of discipline, honour and duty.

and this is very interesting because we KNOW that the Witch Elves do exactly what this highlit passage claims they would never do.......devote themselves, body and soul to Khaine. The high Elves might believe this way but clearly the Dark Elves have kicked this idea to the curb. Probably because Aenarion grabbed the Sword of Khaine and became the vessel of two gods with divine powers, able to take down four Greater Daemons of Chaos. Sounds like the kind of thing Dark Elves would enjoy. Of course Malekith would want to out every Druchii maiden he could to appease his patron god and keep him within his power. Notice how both he and Khaine get to share glory and a harem each of their own. The Witch King's ego is bigger than his black dragon.

So Im not seeing anything in there about Slaanesh being created by anyone That was Selendor's error. It's been addressed already.

according to you I "should become Witch Hunters instead, mongoose, seeing as you're so ready to purge ideas that show the slightest contrast with your own beliefs. Otherwise, move on!"

This reads to me as if you are saying if I dont agree with someone I shouldnt post my PoV but instead should, as you say "move on" If you used the entire quote, you'd realise that "move on" was referring to submitting to progressive development and not staying put to let the lore stagnate in non-motion.

[Xurré]

Ok, this is COMPLETELY OT but your post reminded me of this and I think this thread could use a bit of levity......If you havent seen it before you will DIE from laughter. :mrgreen:

<Click if you dare!> (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFR-8NVjw-k)

and before you ask.......yes this is totally real :shock: :lol:
Yeah, I know. It's great. :mrgreen:


- Xurré

[Thrakkesh]

Let's just agree to disagree at this point. My reply just ended up re-iterating my point again.

I do agree with you as far as the representation of Dark Elves being sort of mis-reprsented from the outset anyway.

[Jinsei]

mongoose....Why....why.... My ears, they are bleeding...my eyes, they are burning....

[Lord Tareq]

Ok, this is COMPLETELY OT but your post reminded me of this and I think this thread could use a bit of levity......If you havent seen it before you will DIE from laughter. :mrgreen:

<Click if you dare!> (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFR-8NVjw-k)

and before you ask.......yes this is totally real :shock: :lol:


OMG, my image of Spock will never be the same again :shock::???:

[ChosenOne]

Ok, this is COMPLETELY OT but your post reminded me of this and I think this thread could use a bit of levity......If you havent seen it before you will DIE from laughter. :mrgreen:

<Click if you dare!> (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFR-8NVjw-k)

and before you ask.......yes this is totally real :shock: :lol:

You really are a skaven rat trying to unravel the threads of reality we try to keep a fragile grip upon.

[mongoose]

You really are a skaven rat trying to unravel the threads of reality we try to keep a fragile grip upon.

and this somehow surprises you???! OF COURSE thats what I am trying to do! :rolleyes: Either you need to take that helmet thats been grafted to your head off so you can read better or I have been lax in doing my job.......I will try to do better :twisted: :skaven:

and to the others who I caused pain to because of that video..........:p :mrgreen:


Two of us have already said that "Echoes of the Birth" referred to Warhammer 40,000 Eldar giving birth to Slaanesh, not Warhammer Fantasy Elves. It even says so in that quote of mine which you used: "I think this is the section from the Liber Chaotica which you were referring to Selendor? Yes, you were mistaken about Slaanesh's birth. That part is actually talking about the Eldar creating Slaanesh in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. However, everything else you said was correct."

That was Selendor's error. It's been addressed already.

I..............yeah I misread that thinking it was somehow directed and my response and not Selendor. My mistake sorry.


If you used the entire quote, you'd realise that "move on" was referring to submitting to progressive development and not staying put to let the lore stagnate in non-motion.

I didnt feel I needed to because it still comes off sounding, even in its entirety (to me) as if I shouldnt post unless its progressive, positive and willing to accept whatever changes GW and Mythic make. Sorry but I just cant do only those things in good conscious.


I just want to make it crystal clear...........while I might never accept whatever GW and Mythic come up with (like Dwarf Tractors and Disciples of Khaine), that most certainly dosnt mean I wont be tolerant of them in game. For all I know this Disciple may very well be a cool looking class and have some awesome abilities. I can accept those things at face value but that dosent mean I have to ever agree they were the correct things to do, especially in light of less lore breaking choices. (Dwarf tractors though I will NEVER accept, even IN game :mad: :evil:)

So I guess you could say I have partially "moved on" but that will never sway my position that it was a completely unnecessary breaking of the lore. I will always hold to that and never agree with the concept of Khaine being turned into a healing/rezzing god and allowing the Disciple to completely undermine the authority of the Witch Elves, shattering Durchii lore as we know it.

[Navras]

EDIT: removed link

[Garok]

Its a leak from the Euro beta web site. Probably best you remove the link since its a NDA breaker.

[Sindal]

I don't really understand how it can be considered a NDa link when it was put out in a beta update... because they took it down or what? I mean was the White lion picture any different?

[Ranti]

I don't really understand how it can be considered a NDa link when it was put out in a beta update... because they took it down or what? I mean was the White lion picture any different?

I am just curious, but what did it say?

[Lord Tareq]

I am just curious, but what did it say?

It revealed the Dark Elf melee healer.

[Ranti]

It revealed the Dark Elf melee healer.

What did they call it thought?

[Sindal]

The Euro version of the beta update had a third class on thier friends tab. It was released by GOA so I'm not really sure how it would be NDA but I don't need any more infractions as is so I'll just say that Garth was right. At least, that was my understanding of the whole matter, I got home late and Mythic had already had them take the pic down by then. Plus I'm in the states so I dind't see the GOA release.

[CapnSquig-WHA]

What did they call it though?

Let's not answer this question, 'k?

The offending image was removed, and it was indicated to be a NDA leak. Just consider it to not have existed.

[Sindal]

Let's not answer this question, 'k?

The offending image was removed, and it was indicated to be a NDA leak. Just consider it to not have existed.

oh really they said it was an NDA leak? thats interesting. Wonder how MYthic feels about GOA causing NDA leaks...

Edit: after going back and reading it it seemed like I was trying to give you attitude or some such, was not intended that way, was more of a question. Like oh hey thats interesting, not like I don't believe you interesting =p

[Browncoat-WHA]

The items in question were removed, hence the logical conclusion is that they were items that weren't to be publicized or even finalized as confirmed. One would conclude naturally that they were therefore under NDA.

The thing about NDA stuff that people forget is that it's under NDA not just because it is "sekrit!!!11" but also because it isn't final or even accurate until officially said otherwise. We'd like to limit that, hence whatever is still there is fine but anything removed or altered isn't ok for talkin'. Feel free to shoot an admin a PM if you all disagree. :)

[Ranti]

Let's not answer this question, 'k?

The offending image was removed, and it was indicated to be a NDA leak. Just consider it to not have existed.

sorry, I can be very...um..curious at times. Bad habit I suppose, but these leaks lately have been seeming more and more accurate. I am dreading hearing about the abominally Khaine god of murder healer, and the ad nosium of blood priest fanatics ranting about how the where "right". I guess I can still hope for a reapter cross bow and Pet monster based class though.

[lemonhead]

The thing about NDA stuff that people forget is that it's under NDA not just because it is "sekrit!!!11" but also because it isn't final or even accurate until officially said otherwise. We'd like to limit that, hence whatever is still there is fine but anything removed or altered isn't ok for talkin'. Feel free to shoot an admin a PM if you all disagree. :)

If you didn't sign an NDA its not under the NDA. if GOA were foolish to post an image then they broke the NDA not the poster (unless they got it from beta )

It is polite though for mods to remove the link, although everyone knows about it, like shitting the stable door after the horse has bolted :D

[Browncoat-WHA]

If you didn't sign an NDA its not under the NDA. if GOA were foolish to post an image then they broke the NDA not the poster (unless they got it from beta )

It is polite though for mods to remove the link, although everyone knows about it, like shitting the stable door after the horse has bolted :D

Just a clarification...

It doesn't matter if you didn't sign it. Passing on information under NDA is pretty much the same as if you leaked it yourself, because the whole point of NDA is to not disclose trade secrets and information it covers. While you have no legal obligation or agreement not to post what is supposedly NDA information if you are not under NDA, as far as we're concerned, the NDA was broken by virtue of the fact that you aren't supposed to be posting the information in the first place because it isn't official.

Even taking out the NDA, posting "leaked" information is misleading because it can't be confirmed without breaking NDA. If you don't want to call it an NDA breach, you can call it misleading information or unconfirmed evidence as truth, it's still not allowed here and it will be dealt with.

Please note that while the image was posted officially, it was later pulled as it was premature. However, someone re-posted the image after it was pulled, and that was the violation. What GOA or Mythic does with their dissemination of information is their business, but if later on something is removed or changed, any attempt to re-post the original information (with very VERY few exceptions) will be considered misleading or an NDA breach and will be treated as such.

I know that's a bit harsh, and it isn't meant to be, but I felt our policy needed to be clarified since there was some confusion. :)

By the way, the discussion still has some merit, so moving to the brand new Disciple forum.

*MOVED to Disciple with a cane*

[Sindal]

ah cool browncoat, I was really confused myself as to how to deal with it... Not that it really matters now I suppose =p

[Ranti]

The class is in

But the lore still doesn't work

Oh well

[jkdfhk]

This is the healer you Darkelf boys are getting? Sweet!

For those who dont like it and dont want it in becareful you may end up with no healers.