WH vs WE (Stat dependency)

[Rimarlk]

I've been reading on the forums and have played a friend's 40 WH quite a bit. I've found that a big difference between the Witch Elf and Witch Hunter is the stats. For damage Witch Elves only have to stack strength and Witch Hunters have to stack Strength and Ballistic.

I've heard that some Witch Elves say it's not hard to get 7-800+ str. and not having to sacrifice much of your other stats whereas the WH does. This makes the WH have to have gear that has Str. and Ballistic. The WH also much do the same for renown to get a reasonable level of the stat.

Now this does not only hurt the WH in damage, but hurts other important stats. Having to split between two damage stats will make it harder to stack toughness, initiative, weapon skill. Many, many times on my friend's WH I've gotten popped by a Witch Elf without ever seeing her, even if I'm in stealth as well. If we both stealth I just wait for her to come because she'll see me first. One witch elf saw me from like 50ft. away earlier today and knocked me out of stealth with her dagger.

The only conceivable way for this is that they don't have to split between two damage stats on gear and renown. They can stack not only initiative, but others as well without sacrificing much of their damage. I look at the stats and realize that in order to have a good amount of str. and ballistic as a WH you must sacrifice other stats.

The solution to this has been suggested in many different forms. The only problem is making Execution be based off strength would definitely be OP since some executions are usable at range. (Granted the WH has to be in melee range to do in execution so that cancels out the range aspect of the class. But that is for a different thread to discuss.)

How about this solution.

You replace one of the WH's bad tactics(there are a couple) maybe even put in a tree with this.(This is taken from the SW's assault stance in a way)

(insert name here) - All your ballistic from gear and renown is converted into strength and all executions will now be based off strength.

Here is why this is not OP. This will require a tactic slot (and maybe mastery point). Tactic slots are incredibly important. Something else valuable could go in there. Instead of outrightly giving the WH all this str. that executions are based off of, make it a tactic. This helps the WH, but also has a drawback. You use a tactic slot.

This will help the WH immensely because they can finally have the choice to focus on other stats. Right now if they want their executions to do a good bit of damage they must split between stats. It's optional though because it requires a tactic slot that could be used for something different.

Just thought of that off the top of my head. This would help balance the classes extremely. Witch Elves will still have that edge because they won't have to have a tactic slotted in order to get their str. WH's however, must have a tactic, but get a little range in return. It evens out nicely.

[Evil Lite]

Another alternative would be the same course Mythic did with the base Witch hunter Stats: artificially pad the ballistic stat. What do I mean by this? If an item is only supposed to have "x" amount of stats (say 100 strength 50 initiative and 50 wounds) and the item is a witch hunter only item (aka: not for generic jewelry) Mythic would add an additional ballistic value to the item as a bonus (does not count into the formula when figuring out stat costs). So let us say the ballistic bonus is half of the strength value. If an item had 100 strength you would get 50 ballistic on the item for "free," anything above 50 ballistic on the item would come out of the normal stat allowance for the item.

[Efertin]

WH executions should just scale off Strength. There should be no tactic or mastery point needed. All WH base ballistics should be turned into other stats, assuming that they indeed get the same amount of total base stats as everyone else.

It might not be that bad right now, but it WILL lead into (even) more scaling problems later on.

Think WH's ranged executions are considered balanced because they don't dual wield, thus they lose some white DPS. (Never seen an offhand proc on my WH, correct me if I'm wrong)

[Liang]

Think WH's ranged executions are considered balanced because they don't dual wield, thus they lose some white DPS. (Never seen an offhand proc on my WH, correct me if I'm wrong)

You know the animation where you pistol whip someone when auto attacking? That's your offhand attack - you can see 2 numbers whiz by on the screen when this happens. It seems to scale off bal per my tests last night (added ~120 str and nothing changed on the offhand attack).

-Liang

[Stash Solstar]

Do the same thing that they did for Shadow Warriors. Have Ballistics Bonuses add to Strength for all melee attacks. Shoot your gun it uses Ballistics only, hit them with you sword it's both Ballistics and Strength.

The 1.1 gave this to Shadow Warriors, any +Ballistic is +Strength for the purpose of melee. It's not overpowered and it rases the base damage to equal Witch Elves having to only spec one stat for DPS. It also doesn't overpower the executions range aspect as they are still based off Ballistics and thus still a give (range) and take (lower bonuses).

It would also give Witch Hunters a option to pad only one stat to boost up both base attacks and executions, via Ballistics, the same as Witch Elves.

[Mahaf]

You know the animation where you pistol whip someone when auto attacking? That's your offhand attack - you can see 2 numbers whiz by on the screen when this happens. It seems to scale off bal per my tests last night (added ~120 str and nothing changed on the offhand attack).

-Liang

If our off-hand is, in fact, ballistic, I would like to see a 65 ft ranged auto-attack. If my ranged attack stat is determining my off-hand, it would only make sense for my ranged off-hand to have an auto-attack.

[Darkkyn]

Well, im rr42, and do fairly well. I just have the epic quest wepaons, and combo of sent / anni gear.

my stats :
str 375
tou 205
wou 608
ini 307
ws 287
bal 501
armor 1262
resists 145 - 357


and a simular level WE with sub par gear... few level 29 items and such:

str 511
tou 161
wou 677
int 275
ws 248
bal 74
armor 843
resists 216 - 365

this doesnt account for tali slots and such, but, give me a break. my class is designed to hunt the WE, but, they do more damage off base numbers, have aoe effects to stop me, see me more often then not before i can see them and dont have to split their damage stats.

after that rant, i dig my class... i do ok until a well geared we knocks me off my horse, and it becomes their fight to lose. im just wondering what the intention of mythic was when they implemented this pairing. i could understand doing less damage if we had the leg up on int or something. i have lost stats points for str / wounds just to get a decent int number, to have a chance, yet consistantly gotten knocked out of stealth by a we who comes in unstealthed from quite a ways away.

in the end, i think each pairing, if played well, should have an equal chance of winning a given fight. i dont think thats the case in wh vs we. i only win with better gear and better play... if i fall short on either, its game over.

[Grung]

Well, im rr42, and do fairly well. I just have the epic quest wepaons, and combo of sent / anni gear.

my stats :
str 375
tou 205
wou 608
ini 307
ws 287
bal 501
armor 1262
resists 145 - 357


and a simular level WE with sub par gear... few level 29 items and such:

str 511
tou 161
wou 677
int 275
ws 248
bal 74
armor 843
resists 216 - 365

I would wager that has more to do with a wide range of greens and blues ranging from rank 29-40, given from quest, drops and influence rewards are in fact better than the first purple stuff you can get.
There is nothing preventing you from doing the same (unless you sold the good unique items) and just use the shinier stuff for dungeons until you get better gear.

[Darkpheonix]

They could do each of those or what they could do is return the WH to what it was originally intended. A class that does less damage but has greater survivability. Everything I have seen has shown that they nerfed WH survivability into the ground and that is where the issues started to arise. Now they end up with pretty much the same survivability as a witch elf but doing less damage because of the stat split.

They do need to handle the str/bs split for a witch hunter as they stand now. In my opinion htough if they un nerf their survivability it would be just as good, or bring the witch elves damage down in line with a witch hunter.

[semphis]

well one Ideal thats needs to be addressed it that All executions will be based off STR there is no reason to do this while a WE can just use STR.

[zerj]

Well, im rr42, and do fairly well. I just have the epic quest wepaons, and combo of sent / anni gear.

my stats :
str 375
tou 205
wou 608
ini 307
ws 287
bal 501
armor 1262
resists 145 - 357


and a simular level WE with sub par gear... few level 29 items and such:

str 511
tou 161
wou 677
int 275
ws 248
bal 74
armor 843
resists 216 - 365

this doesnt account for tali slots and such, but, give me a break. my class is designed to hunt the WE, but, they do more damage off base numbers, have aoe effects to stop me, see me more often then not before i can see them and dont have to split their damage stats.

after that rant, i dig my class... i do ok until a well geared we knocks me off my horse, and it becomes their fight to lose. im just wondering what the intention of mythic was when they implemented this pairing. i could understand doing less damage if we had the leg up on int or something. i have lost stats points for str / wounds just to get a decent int number, to have a chance, yet consistantly gotten knocked out of stealth by a we who comes in unstealthed from quite a ways away.

in the end, i think each pairing, if played well, should have an equal chance of winning a given fight. i dont think thats the case in wh vs we. i only win with better gear and better play... if i fall short on either, its game over.

This seems like a gear issue. Your base BS skill at 40 is 475 so you are only stacking 26 points in BS. The issue the OP was mentioning was that the WH has to stack 2 stats BS and STR, while the WE only has to stack 1. Here you only stacked STR and pretty much ignored BS so you didn't have this issue. Unless of course there is no available gear for WH as it all sucks. That seems to be a problem for several classes but is unrelated to your current problem.

When I play my WE the WH is the class I fear the most. If they get the jump on me or see me from stealth I am usually toast as well. Also the 100% parry + disarm is nasty.

Personally I would have no real issues if the WH didn't use BS for anything and everything came off of STR. It's worth noting that Mythic did attempt to partially fix this issue as they gave the WH an extra base 400 BS. I would agree this might not go far enough, I would think the WH gear should have some extra BS on it as well and it doesn't seem to.

[DuneSiN]

I've been reading on the forums and have played a friend's 40 WH quite a bit. I've found that a big difference between the Witch Elf and Witch Hunter is the stats. For damage Witch Elves only have to stack strength and Witch Hunters have to stack Strength and Ballistic.

I've heard that some Witch Elves say it's not hard to get 7-800+ str. and not having to sacrifice much of your other stats whereas the WH does. This makes the WH have to have gear that has Str. and Ballistic. The WH also much do the same for renown to get a reasonable level of the stat.

Now this does not only hurt the WH in damage, but hurts other important stats. Having to split between two damage stats will make it harder to stack toughness, initiative, weapon skill. Many, many times on my friend's WH I've gotten popped by a Witch Elf without ever seeing her, even if I'm in stealth as well. If we both stealth I just wait for her to come because she'll see me first. One witch elf saw me from like 50ft. away earlier today and knocked me out of stealth with her dagger.

The only conceivable way for this is that they don't have to split between two damage stats on gear and renown. They can stack not only initiative, but others as well without sacrificing much of their damage. I look at the stats and realize that in order to have a good amount of str. and ballistic as a WH you must sacrifice other stats.

The solution to this has been suggested in many different forms. The only problem is making Execution be based off strength would definitely be OP since some executions are usable at range. (Granted the WH has to be in melee range to do in execution so that cancels out the range aspect of the class. But that is for a different thread to discuss.)

How about this solution.

You replace one of the WH's bad tactics(there are a couple) maybe even put in a tree with this.(This is taken from the SW's assault stance in a way)

(insert name here) - All your ballistic from gear and renown is converted into strength and all executions will now be based off strength.

Here is why this is not OP. This will require a tactic slot (and maybe mastery point). Tactic slots are incredibly important. Something else valuable could go in there. Instead of outrightly giving the WH all this str. that executions are based off of, make it a tactic. This helps the WH, but also has a drawback. You use a tactic slot.

This will help the WH immensely because they can finally have the choice to focus on other stats. Right now if they want their executions to do a good bit of damage they must split between stats. It's optional though because it requires a tactic slot that could be used for something different.

Just thought of that off the top of my head. This would help balance the classes extremely. Witch Elves will still have that edge because they won't have to have a tactic slotted in order to get their str. WH's however, must have a tactic, but get a little range in return. It evens out nicely.

Seems resonable I guess. The tactic making the tradeoff in the fact that they can do the extra damage at range.

[Deeva]

I was under the impression that the Witch Hunter had a higher baseline Ballistics skill than most classes, because it's not very viable to stack that stat but it still had to be part of the class.

[Aiteal]

I was under the impression that the Witch Hunter had a higher baseline Ballistics skill than most classes, because it's not very viable to stack that stat but it still had to be part of the class.

We do
475 balistic skill at lvl40

But given that WE's and WH's would aim for 800 or so STR at level40
thats 325 points that must be made up for so that your builders and finishers stat dependant bonuses match

[zerj]

I was under the impression that the Witch Hunter had a higher baseline Ballistics skill than most classes, because it's not very viable to stack that stat but it still had to be part of the class.

It is actually quite a bit higher than all the other classes just for that reason. If you sum the base stats for all classes they are all the same except for the WH which has several hundred extra points. So a partial solution is already in place whether this is strong enough is debatable.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75508

I think that all the WH set pieces should have a little extra BS on them. Certainly a WE is usually running around with 600+ STR so a BS of 475 would still need to stack another 125 BS and the same 600+ STR just to equal the WE for all his attacks. So there does appear to be some disparity there.

[Reaver Anethema]

I destroy most WE's 1v1 on my server...
919 str after set bonuses (breaks 1000 buffed;))
Razor strike hits for between 400-700 on WEs (and 2 of their neighbors). I'd say average is about 510 or thereabouts.
~560 ballistics after bonuses.

conf specced. #2 WH in kills on the server, and I only play 3-4 days a week.
I'm more survivable then they are... believe it or not.

Absospam is farking overrated.

Anethema
General of Ȅиîǥɱд
Ironfist
1000+ Sorc Kills
1000+ Marauder Kills
1000+ Chosen Kills

[Rimarlk]

I destroy most WE's 1v1 on my server...
919 str after set bonuses (breaks 1000 buffed;))
Razor strike hits for between 400-700 on WEs (and 2 of their neighbors). I'd say average is about 510 or thereabouts.
~560 ballistics after bonuses.

conf specced. #2 WH in kills on the server, and I only play 3-4 days a week.
I'm more survivable then they are... believe it or not.

Absospam is farking overrated.

Anethema
General of Ȅиîǥɱд
Ironfist
1000+ Sorc Kills
1000+ Marauder Kills
1000+ Chosen Kills


I'm not talking about 1v1 fights.....WH's will have the advantage if they get RP off unless the WE is good and severs it.

How much initiative, weaponskill, and toughness did you have to sacrifice to get those stats? To get where you are you must have had to sacrifice other stats.

[RealBigKitty]

Maybe I'm missing something here. I play a SH, and spec for mostly Ballistic skill. On my WE I am actually speccing for Str primarily, with some points in Weap skill. One of these is a ranged DPS class, the other is a pure (did I say PURE?) melee DPS class.

The WH gets to do both. Making one skill balance BOTH types of DPS for one class would be tipping the balance. Yes, blah blah WE's only really have to spec for one stat. Let's have a show of hands: how many destruction squishies here have been frequently killed AT RANGE by a WH? *counts all the goblin hands and those of the Chaos clothies*

Now, how many Order folks have been frequently killed (and not when trying to survive with like 50 hp) by WE ranged? What? Oh right, WE's can't DO ranged attacks aside from the one ALL classes get a version of (yes ours may snare, a tank's can do a LOT of damage), let alone any SPECIAL ranged attacks. HOW many special ranged magical attacks do WH's have?

Absolutely let's give WH's and ALL their special abilities the benefit from one skill spec. :rolleyes:

Either give a WH some comparable ranged special attacks (I dunno, Piercing Gaze or some rot), or give WH's a low powered ranged auto-attack ONLY and then boost their mDPS to the supposedly OP level of a WE.

Seriously. I avoid the whiny "OP WE" posts most of the time. But you want WH's to have ranged cake and be able to beat everyone to death with it too...

[Efertin]

WH's are a ranged class by no means, having their ranged finishers should account for maybe 5-10% DPS loss in melee range. They aren't entirely useless, as I know for sure that there has been countless times when I've got rooted/KB'd/knockbacked and my target has survived because I didn't have that 30 ft finisher, but it's not THAT good that it should account for a heavy DPS loss or huge itemization issues.

I'd say making Executions scale with STR could go a long way with settling up the WE-WH imbalance already, we can't be sure before we've seen it. If that isn't enough, they should take a look at the mechanics of both classes, because they're unnecessarily different. (Bullets vs Kisses)

[Liang]

Now, how many Order folks have been frequently killed (and not when trying to survive with like 50 hp) by WE ranged? What? Oh right, WE's can't DO ranged attacks aside from the one ALL classes get a version of (yes ours may snare, a tank's can do a LOT of damage), let alone any SPECIAL ranged attacks. HOW many special ranged magical attacks do WH's have?

Are you counting kiss procs? That's what quarter to half as much damage as absospam, except that you don't actually have to get back into range because you don't have to build Bloodlust/Executions...

I've been killed *AT RANGE* by kisses. I've also been killed by kisses proc'ing off autoattacks long after we both ran out of AP. WH's can't do either of these things.

Seriously. I avoid the whiny "OP WE" posts most of the time. But you want WH's to have ranged cake and be able to beat everyone to death with it too...Not really - but it would be nice to have some parity between the classes. You're discounting *ALOT* of what the ballistics split takes.

-Liang

[RealBigKitty]

Are you counting kiss procs? That's what quarter to half as much damage as absospam, except that you don't actually have to get back into range because you don't have to build Bloodlust/Executions...

I've been killed *AT RANGE* by kisses. I've also been killed by kisses proc'ing off autoattacks long after we both ran out of AP. WH's can't do either of these things.

Not really - but it would be nice to have some parity between the classes. You're discounting *ALOT* of what the ballistics split takes.

-Liang

So a WH has chosen a class that CAN do mDPS and ranged DPS, one really well and one middling well. And the argument is that both DPS types for the WH should benefit from ONE stat like a class that can ONLY do mDPS? If a WH specs for, say STR and Ball, they have to sacrifice BIG numbers in one for decent in both. And if a WE chooses to spec for something like toughness, wounds, weap skill or something similar then they would also have to make a similar sacrifice. ANY class can make a similar argument. Why can't my Chosen get more armour bonus or block from beter STR? Then I could do some damage, but in theory I could heft the shield better, block more often, wear heavier armour, etc... Explain to me how STR+ would make your bullets do more damage. I can actually see that (like with SW's) Ballistic+ could add a slight benefit to melee (have you ever tried to pull a good bow? lord that takes strength).

If you want to play like a WE, play a WE instead of a WH. If I want to do ranged DPS, I switch to my Herder. Who, by the way, specs for Ballistic and sucks like crazy at melee...

[Darkpheonix]

A WH is a melee class. Their only range is executions and snap shot (which like you said everyone gets). The executions themselves also have a very short range applied to them so while they can hit you with an execution while your running they can hardly be called a ranged class. They can't even use an execution unless they have been melee dpsing you or another class. They get stuck with ballistics though because of their executions use of bullets/guns. They can in no way be considered a range class.

[Liang]

So a WH has chosen a class that CAN do mDPS and ranged DPS, one really well and one middling well.

The WH is not a RDPS class, and it doesn't actually do RDPS. Even with flowing accusations you have to start your damage dealing in melee range and even then you have a 50% chance of losing all your ranged damage every time you fire.

Saying that it's a "middling" RDPS class is an outright lie, but I'll go ahead and show you how the WE is actually better RDPS than the WH.

Let's say that each class gets *ONE* melee strike against the enemy, and thereafter they're out of melee range.

WE: Kiss, spamming throwing dagger with a 50% kiss proc rate.
WH: Razor Strike, Absolution, Absolution, Snapshot -> Infinity.

Who does more damage? Immediately the WH will, but it won't take all that terribly long for the WE to actually win out. Afterall, the WH doesn't actually deal ranged auto attack damage... which is something I might expect from RDPS.

And the argument is that both DPS types for the WH should benefit from ONE stat like a class that can ONLY do mDPS? If a WH specs for, say STR and Ball, they have to sacrifice BIG numbers in one for decent in both. And if a WE chooses to spec for something like toughness, wounds, weap skill or something similar then they would also have to make a similar sacrifice. ANY class can make a similar argument.

No, not every class can make this argument, because not every class varies so drastically from their mirror. It'd be like the Shaman having to stack Int and Willpower to heal while the AM just had to stack willpower - the balance would simply be lost because they'd be overall worse at *EVERYTHING*.

What you seem to be missing is that the str/bal split *HURTS* the WH quite alot. They lose out on damage for every single attack because of it - and this overall totals to a lower damage than the WE, and then they miss out on all of the other stats that the WE gets to stack, and that's on top of the already superior performance that the WE provides.

Basically, you have 200 points to distribute, and virtually all of your attacks key off of one stat. You stack 100 points in str, 75 in wounds, 25 in WS. We have 200 points to distribute and put 75 in str, 50 in bal, 50 in wounds, 25 in WS - thus we're worse at every single thing.

As additional evidence, we'd expect that if you were right and that the WH is just as effective as the WE that there'd be a zillion nerf WH threads all over the forums - afterall it's hard to read a single thread without a stealth nerf WE whine.

::looks around:: ::waits:: ::crickets:: Oh, that's right - nobody actually complains that they died to a WH! That must mean that destro doesn't ever whine about OP order classes. ::looks back to the BW whines, the WP whines, the IB whines, the OYG whines:: Oh, well, those must have been flukes.


Why can't my Chosen get more armour bonus or block from beter STR? Then I could do some damage, but in theory I could heft the shield better, block more often, wear heavier armour, etc... Explain to me how STR+ would make your bullets do more damage. I can actually see that (like with SW's) Ballistic+ could add a slight benefit to melee (have you ever tried to pull a good bow? lord that takes strength).

This is a nonsense argument (and so is the rest of the post I suppose) By the same token we can argue that holding a gun (or anything really) aloft for 15-20 minutes at a time is really really hard - even harder than pulling a bow string. Really, just stop trolling.

-Liang

[RealBigKitty]

Trolling? Because I don't agree? Do you often debate by insulting another person or negating their argument with the implication that yours is superior and the only one that is correct? I smell a Creationist...

I seem to be honestly confused. I apologize if I have mistaken mechanics of a WH, because I have not played one. I read about opoosing classes and try to learn. I *have* however been the victim of several, as I play squishy Destro classes. And I *have* been killed repeatedly at range. If I was mistaken in my assessment of "middling DPS", fine, however you seem to have negated your own argument. If a WH is designed mostly around mDPS, AND you need said mDPS to cascade a proper "range" attack, then why would a WH worry about this ranged "DPS" at all? I mean, if your argument is that you don't use it extensively and it is merely a short range finisher, I truly do not understand why this is such a big deal. I *will* use the SH as an example of JUST this one point (this is not a class comparison of a true rDPS and the WH, I promise). I *can* choose to spec for STR so that my stabbity powers have some oomph. I use these in opposing situations to a WH, namely when someone closes on me, but the stabbities suck, because I have only really specced for Ballistic/range. I understand that a portion for SW (do SH's get this too, or only while in squig armour?) of Ball skill transfers to melee. Are you saying WH's deserve something similar (a % of strength for ranged?), or that the total STR+ should apply?
One I can agree with, the other I think is bogus.

There's also a huge difference between hefting a shield and plate mail around in respect to a STR bonus, and toting a pistol. Now, if you were shooting with a 2-handed musket (admittedly requiring more STR and doing consequently more damage) and were trying to bludgeon someone to death with it, I agree STR would help. But STR+ with a pistol, ANY pistol, does not make a bullet do more damage. Period. I apologize again, because I am having difficulty putting what I can envision IRL (guns, etc) into the terms of the game, for this one particular example (STR and guns).

And try actually reading the posts of any squishy Destro class, particularly Goblins/zealots/magus/sorc. From personal experience (with ALL these classes) and from running with my Guild, I promise you that WH's ARE a big deal, and I would guess you *could* find posts as such. But that would not support your argument, nor your assertion that I am just "trolling."

Or, perhaps, and I concur this is a stretch, Destro is just a little less whiny about this one WE vs. WH class thing, recognizing that (out of keeping with the Lore) WH's are designed to do what they do?

I know I am frustrated when I am gibbed by a WH when playing a squishie, but because I play a WE, I know that's what they do. I would laugh myself silly at any WH inane enough to tackle my Chosen...

[Darkpheonix]

A witch hunter worries about his ranged dps ie ballistics, because that is what determines his damage for his executions. This is like telling a witch elf dont use your executions after you have built your bloodlust up. The witch hunter is still in melee range or close to it and the damage capability of any execution they use is entirely dependent on their ballistic stat. This is why even though they are equal between the two the WH actually ends up doing much less damage on their execution then a witch elf does.

[RealBigKitty]

I understand that Dark. It seems to me then that the most obvious method of "fixing" this and addressing the balance/mirror issue would be to make the Executions solely melee based and tied to strength, and remove the ranged component. Otherwise it would seem to me to be an imbalance if WH's received a full STR bonus to ranged attacks and finishers, and WE's were left as is, with no range + or anything. I guess I like a lot in this game that "mirrors" aren't true mirrors. That there ARE differences between classes. It implies a need for planning and strategy. It does make balance a pain for the developers, but I feel it beats having every class the same on both sides. Personal opinion, there.

[Darkpheonix]

You do realize your fix is exactly what every witch hunter is asking for. How many people need to tell you they do not have true ranged abilities their snap shot is the only one with any significant range and that is equivelant to the WE throw.

[Liang]

You do realize your fix is exactly what every witch hunter is asking for. How many people need to tell you they do not have true ranged abilities their snap shot is the only one with any significant range and that is equivelant to the WE throw.

Actually, I think what most people are asking for is for ballistics to apply to strength based attacks (exactly as the SW) not for str to apply to ranged attacks (like absolution).

-Liang

[Darkpheonix]

Either way they are asking for a single applied stat. If its stength or ballistics you get the exact same results. Though most of the requests I have seen is a mechanic that applies strength to executions so that only strength needs to be stacked.

[Rimarlk]

I understand that Dark. It seems to me then that the most obvious method of "fixing" this and addressing the balance/mirror issue would be to make the Executions solely melee based and tied to strength, and remove the ranged component. Otherwise it would seem to me to be an imbalance if WH's received a full STR bonus to ranged attacks and finishers, and WE's were left as is, with no range + or anything. I guess I like a lot in this game that "mirrors" aren't true mirrors. That there ARE differences between classes. It implies a need for planning and strategy. It does make balance a pain for the developers, but I feel it beats having every class the same on both sides. Personal opinion, there.

Which is why it should be a tactic. A tactic slot is a big deal. This gives you the choice of being brought up to the WE damage wise, but at the price of a tactic, whereas the witch elf would not require the tactic, but doesn't have the added benefit of range on some executions.

[Rimarlk]

Do you often debate by insulting another person or negating their argument with the implication that yours is superior and the only one that is correct? I smell a Creationist...


This post was not intended for that kind of junk. Do not say that stuff here. This is discussing whether or not a tactic would be a good solution to fix the stat dependencies that the WH suffers from and the WE doesn't. Not insulting a faith that one person possesses that you do not. Leave that out of these boards, they are not meant for it. Talk about the issue I posted please. There is no need for that garbage here, but discussion about Warhammer. Thank you.


Now further discuss the point this thread was trying to make please everyone.

/discuss

[Rimarlk]

Sorry for being a bit harsh mate, put I don't want this thread to get locked because of so much arguing. Let's keep the discussion going.


Why would it be OP if the WH had to use a tactic to get this affect of Ballistic funneling into Str. And all executions being based of STR like WE's can? They need a tactic slot for it. How is that truly OP?

[zerj]

Which is why it should be a tactic. A tactic slot is a big deal. This gives you the choice of being brought up to the WE damage wise, but at the price of a tactic, whereas the witch elf would not require the tactic, but doesn't have the added benefit of range on some executions.

Theoretically wouldn't this be better than the WE? I believe the original poster wanted this tactic to convert all bonus BS to STR and use STR as the stat for finishers. Why convert the BS skill? Wouldn't set bonuses like the +65 BS for 3 annihilator? items (which is +65 initiative for WEs). Or is it more difficult for the WH to stack STR due to itemization so this extra STR is needed?

[Poodle]

Theoretically wouldn't this be better than the WE? I believe the original poster wanted this tactic to convert all bonus BS to STR and use STR as the stat for finishers. Why convert the BS skill? Wouldn't set bonuses like the +65 BS for 3 annihilator? items (which is +65 initiative for WEs). Or is it more difficult for the WH to stack STR due to itemization so this extra STR is needed?

its fairly obvious that its more difficult for the WH to stack STR since our gear has both ballistic and strength on it.

[Rimarlk]

Theoretically wouldn't this be better than the WE? I believe the original poster wanted this tactic to convert all bonus BS to STR and use STR as the stat for finishers. Why convert the BS skill? Wouldn't set bonuses like the +65 BS for 3 annihilator? items (which is +65 initiative for WEs). Or is it more difficult for the WH to stack STR due to itemization so this extra STR is needed?

Yes, it is harder to stack Strength because of the Ballistic on most WH gear. This would help, but at the cost of losing a precious tactic slot. The WE doesn't need a tactic slot to do this, but she doesn't have a bit of range(what little difference that makes except finishing a fleeing opponent) on her finishers like the WH has.

[Poodle]

oh and yea i forgot to add, i cant spare a tactic for this.

this is something that needs to be handed to us free, all executions should have this benefit. I doubt i would ever use such a tactic

[Rimarlk]

oh and yea i forgot to add, i cant spare a tactic for this.

this is something that needs to be handed to us free, all executions should have this benefit. I doubt i would ever use such a tactic

Which is exactly what it should be made a tactic. If you can't spare it then by all means, go keep your spec. Just making it the way you want it would create havoc on the boards. It would be BW nerf threads all over again.

This way you have to give a little something to get that Witch Elf dps. If you feel you cannot afford it for the way you are specc'ed then sorry. This gives people the choice.

[Christoph]

What most people do not realize, and what makes this stat disparity so unfair, is that currently WH is the only class in game that relies on two stats instead of one as his direct DPS stat. Prior to 1.1, Chosen's magical (and most useful) abilities scaled with intelligence, while SWs and SHs received no bonus from Ballistics when they activated Assault Stance or Squig Armor, and as a result they had to rely on strength to increase their melee DPS. After the patch, all Chosen abilities scale with strength, while SWs and SHs rely only on Bal regardless if they are playing melee or ranged stance. There is no rationale behind these changes, other than the gameplay fact that all of these carreers should focus on stacking one stat instead of two. Thus after 1.1, all classes depend on a single stat (Str, Int or Bal) to directly increase the damage from all their abilities. All except the WH.

It is not to say either that only a few of WH abilities get affected by the need for Ballistics. The most popular playstyle among WHs is Absospamming, somewhat lame but arguably effective. The most famous WH videos feature this playstyle. To those who don't know WH mechanics, it consists of using a melee attack (strength dependent), thus building one accusation, and then immediately firing the Absolution execution ability (Ballistics dependent). Then you just repeat this same procedure until target is dead. It is clear that when you use this playstyle (and trust me, the WHs who actually want to dps usually do so), then effectively half of your attacks depend on strength stat, while the other half depend on ballistics stat. Tell me please if there is any other class in WAR that depends on one stat for half of their attacks, and a different stat for the other half.

One final thing, I have seen many WEs argue that WH is designed for more survivability than the WE, because of one ability that WH possesses, and one you actually have to specc for. You probably guessed what I am talking about, yes it is Repel Blasphemy. Let me show why because of the stat disparity, WE are actually more survivable than WH. A simple example:

Annihilator Longcoat (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=434148) vs Annihilator Corset (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=434213)

Check the 2 and 3 piece bonus. Both sets get +62 strength as the 2 piece bonus, but at this point, while a WE has effectively boosted all of her abilities DPS, a WH needs an extra +62 Bal to be on par with that. Indeed, the WH gets +62 BAL as a 3rd piece bonus, being now on par DPSwise with the WE, but ofc the WE gets an extra 62 initiative for her 3 piece bonus, which translates into a -3% chance to be crited. This is just a simple example, this happens with all items, not just sets. Any time a WH has a +200 item bonus to Ballistics, a WE with equal gear would have an extra +200 to Initiative, Toughness or Wounds instead, making her significantly more survivable.

There is an extremely single solution to this problem, and this consists exactly of what Mythic did with the Chosen, SH and SW careers, that is fix all of WH attacks to rely only on one stat, strength.

[Darkpheonix]

One final thing, I have seen many WEs argue that WH is designed for more survivability than the WE, because of one ability that WH possesses, and one you actually have to specc for. You probably guessed what I am talking about, yes it is Repel Blasphemy. Let me show why because of the stat disparity, WE are actually more survivable than WH. A simple example:

Annihilator Longcoat (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=434148) vs Annihilator Corset (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=434213)

Check the 2 and 3 piece bonus. Both sets get +62 strength as the 2 piece bonus, but at this point, while a WE has effectively boosted all of her abilities DPS, a WH needs an extra +62 Bal to be on par with that. Indeed, the WH gets +62 BAL as a 3rd piece bonus, being now on par DPSwise with the WE, but ofc the WE gets an extra 62 initiative for her 3 piece bonus, which translates into a -3% chance to be crited. This is just a simple example, this happens with all items, not just sets. Any time a WH has a +200 item bonus to Ballistics, a WE with equal gear would have an extra +200 to Initiative, Toughness or Wounds instead, making her significantly more survivable.

There is an extremely single solution to this problem, and this consists exactly of what Mythic did with the Chosen, SH and SW careers, that is fix all of WH attacks to rely only on one stat, strength.

The witch hunters survivability is much lower then people realize now. It would seem that many people still believe a witch hunter has the same survivability that they had before it got nerfed and essentially destroyed. Pretty much at this point a witch hunter has the same survivability as a witch elf but does less damage.

[Rimarlk]

Repel Balspehmy really isn't a good argument to use because it is only useful in 1v1 situations. The thing is is that all you have to do is get behind them and you negate the ability.


I do understand what you're saying. I want the WH buffed, but not so much Destruction will start complaining like order is complaining about the WE. Making that a tactic would be so much easier for Mythic to do because it wouldn't require them to make whole new armor and weapons, and for the ones using the tactic they have a very valid excuse to why they are now doing as much damage as the WE. They are using up a tactic slot whereas the WE does not.

[athropos]

I'm not giving up a precious tactic slot just to have my STR count towards my BAL. There are only 4 tactic slots, and each one should have a 5-10% effect on some major aspect of your character's performance. Losing one of those just to gain another is a zero-sum game.

The stat split for WH needs to be straight up changed in the baseline. Either do the same thing they did for SW/SH (except in reverse), or just remove any stat dependence on BAL (and subsequently the ~300pt natural bonus we get) and make us straight STR like the WE's.

WH are the only class in the game at this point that have a realistic need to stack two offensive stats. That is going to lead to scaling issues down the road. Fix it now.

[zerj]

its fairly obvious that its more difficult for the WH to stack STR since our gear has both ballistic and strength on it.

That may be somewhat true in some cases but the above poster already pointed out the Ahnililator body armor is the same for both WE and WH. Then if you have three pieces of the set you would have double bonus on the executions. I'm not entirely against this idea but I think it might be more complicated than just doing it for free. For a tactic slot maybe but I could see this being abused.

Personally the best solution may be just to remove BS from the WH entirely but that would require massive itemization changes and probably isn't a realistic option. Still I think some form of statistical analysis is needed before mythic would do anything

WH are the only class in the game at this point that have a realistic need to stack two offensive stats. That is going to lead to scaling issues down the road. Fix it now.

Technically don't engineers have half thier offensive abilities increase off of WS?

[Christoph]

Technically don't engineers have half thier offensive abilities increase off of WS?

We are talking about direct DPS increases. Weapon Skill increases damage indirectly for careers that do mostly physical damage (like WH and engi), by giving armor penetration. Engineers rely solely on one stat, Ballistics, to get a direct DPS increase to abilities and auto attack damage.

Also notice that both WH and engineer rely on Weapon Skill for an indirect DPS increase via armor penetration. If you factor WS for engineers saying that they need two stats for increased DPS (Bal and WS), then you must also factor it for WHs, which would mean that WHs rely on three stats for DPS increases (Str, Bal, and WS).

[Rimarlk]

I'm not giving up a precious tactic slot just to have my STR count towards my BAL. There are only 4 tactic slots, and each one should have a 5-10% effect on some major aspect of your character's performance. Losing one of those just to gain another is a zero-sum game.

The stat split for WH needs to be straight up changed in the baseline. Either do the same thing they did for SW/SH (except in reverse), or just remove any stat dependence on BAL (and subsequently the ~300pt natural bonus we get) and make us straight STR like the WE's.

WH are the only class in the game at this point that have a realistic need to stack two offensive stats. That is going to lead to scaling issues down the road. Fix it now.

If you did it that way WH's would be the new class that will get nerfed. Straight up giving them that would be OP and would require massive reitemization which Mythic will most likely not do. What you're asking for is unreasonable and will get the class nerfed into the ground. WH's would be the new Witch Elves and with the range on executions(all though most Destruction don't realize the little effect it has on fights) Destruction will cry for nerfs as hard as they did BW's. You have to strike a balance.

[Rimarlk]

I'm not giving up a precious tactic slot just to have my STR count towards my BAL. There are only 4 tactic slots, and each one should have a 5-10% effect on some major aspect of your character's performance. Losing one of those just to gain another is a zero-sum game.

The stat split for WH needs to be straight up changed in the baseline. Either do the same thing they did for SW/SH (except in reverse), or just remove any stat dependence on BAL (and subsequently the ~300pt natural bonus we get) and make us straight STR like the WE's.

WH are the only class in the game at this point that have a realistic need to stack two offensive stats. That is going to lead to scaling issues down the road. Fix it now.

One thing about making it as a tactic is that you ARE NOT FORCED to use it. You can keep what you have, or change if you want, all though you will stay the same as you are now.

[zerj]

We are talking about direct DPS increases. Weapon Skill increases damage indirectly for careers that do mostly physical damage (like WH and engi), by giving armor penetration. Engineers rely solely on one stat, Ballistics, to get a direct DPS increase to abilities and auto attack damage.

Also notice that both WH and engineer rely on Weapon Skill for an indirect DPS increase via armor penetration. If you factor WS for engineers saying that they need two stats for increased DPS (Bal and WS), then you must also factor it for WHs, which would mean that WHs rely on three stats for DPS increases (Str, Bal, and WS).

Actually I was refering to the fact that about half the Engineer skills are physical attacks in which case armor and weapon skill come into play, while the other half (the grenade tree) are magic attacks that do not use weapon skill.

[Christoph]

Actually I was refering to the fact that about half the Engineer skills are physical attacks in which case armor and weapon skill come into play, while the other half (the grenade tree) are magic attacks that do not use weapon skill.

This is not the same case with the WH at all. The engineer attacks which do magical (corporeal) damage depend on Ballistics skill for a direct DPS increase. All physical melee or ranged dps classes rely partially on WS for indirect DPS increase through armor penetration. SW, SH, WH, WE, WL, Engie, all can use the armor penetration from weapon skill.

Let me be clearer in order for everyone to understand:

As an engie you rely solely on Ballistics to get a direct dps increase, and on WS to get an indirect DPS increase for some of your attacks. Two stats.

As a WH you rely both on Strength and Ballistics to get a direct DPS increase, and on WS to get an indirect DPS increase for your attacks. Three Stats.

[zerj]

I think it is still a parralel. The Engie an choose to stack WS to benefit half his attacks or not. With a high primary attribute (STR/BS) it can be more benefitial to stack WS as this effects a percentage instead of a raw DPS increase. So the advantage to a Engie to stacking WS is dependant on what abilities he intends to use the same as the WH. This also applies to the Chosen/Swordmaster/BG/KoBS as they all have substantial magic attacks, but as they are tanks they don't do as much damage and have even more stats to worry about stacking.

[Christoph]

I think it is still a parralel. The Engie an choose to stack WS to benefit half his attacks or not. With a high primary attribute (STR/BS) it can be more benefitial to stack WS as this effects a percentage instead of a raw DPS increase. So the advantage to a Engie to stacking WS is dependant on what abilities he intends to use the same as the WH. This also applies to the Chosen/Swordmaster/BG/KoBS as they all have substantial magic attacks, but as they are tanks they don't do as much damage and have even more stats to worry about stacking.

Listen m8 everyone can see this is a completely different case. If an engie chooses not to stack WS at all, and stacks only Ballistics, then ALL of his abilities will actually get a direct dps increase from Bal stat. If a WH foregoes Ballistics completely, and stacks only strength, HALF of his damage will get NO DPS increase at all.


I really do not know how is this so difficult to understand. Engie has only one primary direct DPS increasing stat, as all the other classes do. All except WH. Saying Engineer needs WS is a moot point, because all the physical classes need this stat, including WH.

[Fireline]

I dont get what WH's want...to get ballistic along with str on their gear?
so be it.
But u cant honestly want your Strength to make ur SHOTS more accurate
Or you want a 100% melee class like WE to have another stat dependency?

[Xae]

Don't Witch Hunters get several 'bonus' points of Ballistics per level?

[Liang]

Don't Witch Hunters get several 'bonus' points of Ballistics per level?

Yes, they do. The thing about it is that they don't make up for the split bal/str primary damage stat - because you can't ever boost them both up to the levels you can boost a single stat - the itemization simply isn't there.

WH's are really left in a lurch:
- Stack Str only => Execution and autoattack damage suffers
- Stack Bal only => Autoattack and melee damage suffers
- Stack both => WS/Wounds suffers, and you end up doing sub-par for all attacks.

Also, as has been shown (either here or in another thread, I don't recall), the itemization simply isn't there to make up for the difference in stats. It really does boil down to stacking Str/Bal/Wounds/WS vs stacking only Str/Wounds/WS with the same number of attribute points -- No matter how you slice the pie one side gets shafted.

The bonus points per level help, but they certainly don't make up for the pain.

-Liang

Ed: And if you're curious about the autoattack suffering twice, it's because the main attack is based off of str and the offhand is based off of bal (even though it only procs off of a melee main attack!). This is easily verifiable by using the Brute Force tactic. Also, it's worth mentioning that autoattack accounts for a very large portion of the WH's overall damage - there comes a time when Inquisitor's Fury (double auto attack speed on crits) is literally an excellent tactic.

I'd be more ok with this as is if they allowed for a ranged autoattack with the pistol - but I haven't thought that through well enough to rationally justify the argument.

[Lenny]

Why does everyone consider 30 foot range on Absolution to be so unreasonable when placed wth single-stat dependancey? Even with Flowing Acusations the most you could reasonably get is 1, 1 point abso and 2, 2-point absos, on a good day. And then you have to melee attack again. A tactic slot works 100% of the time, and our tactics aren't even close to as good as WE tactics. (Increased pain anyone?)

And no. Giving WHs a "choice" isn't justification, if WHs still need work and you offer to remove an advantage (Tactic slot) to give them another advantage (BAL/STR change), reducing the worth of the advantage significantly, then ignoring them because you gave them a a fix to the problem that doesn't do enough doesn't make sense.

[Christoph]

I dont get what WH's want...to get ballistic along with str on their gear?
so be it.
But u cant honestly want your Strength to make ur SHOTS more accurate
Or you want a 100% melee class like WE to have another stat dependency?


Yes in fact we want all our abilities, including pistol shots, to scale with strength (all except SnapShot, which should continune to scale with Ballistics). We want to focus only on one stat as our direct DPS increasing stat, as ALL the other classes do so at the moment.

Firstly, saying that strength does not make pistol shots more accurate is a moot point currently, because SWs and SHs in their melee modes benefit from Ballistics as if it was strength. Explain to me please how exactly Ballistics skill makes SWs in Assault Stance hit harder with their melee attacks.

Secondly, depending on strength for short range pistol shots is a lot more realistic that it sounds. The type of personal firearm WH uses, flintlock pistol, is notorious for its terrible accuracy, which is exactly why in past times it was used only in extremely short range, or even hand to hand combat (same way WH uses it in the game, this is truth in gaming btw). On the other hand, every modern pistol requires at least a minimum degree of physical strength to handle its kickback or recoil effectively, depending on its power. Also bear in mind that flintlocks were a lot less ergonomical than modern pistols, which made it much more difficult for their user to absorb their recoil or kickback. Another thing to take into consideration is that, according to law enforcement and military manuals, the correct way to hold a pistol is in a two handed grip, in order to steady it and better absorb any recoil. Now, the WH holds his pistol in a one handed grip (and his off hand too), which requires even more physical strength to manage its recoil effectively, especially if you keep firing it repeatedly (read : absopam). The WH actually uses his pistol in a frenetic melee, while he swings his rapier with one arm and fires his flintlock with the other. He is essentially firing most of his shots in point blank range. Under these circumstances, it is clear that the ability to accurately aim his shots (ballistics skill), becomes much less of a factor than the physical strength needed to handle his flintlock's recoil in an one handed grip, to keep his pistol and his aim steady, while parrying and thrusting with his other hand. This is further reinforced if you consider the flintlock pistol's inherent inaccuracy. I should not even mention that better handling of your weapon equals more effectiveness, and more effectiveness, in game terms, translates into higher damage.

[zerj]

Listen m8 everyone can see this is a completely different case. If an engie chooses not to stack WS at all, and stacks only Ballistics, then ALL of his abilities will actually get a direct dps increase from Bal stat. If a WH foregoes Ballistics completely, and stacks only strength, HALF of his damage will get NO DPS increase at all.


If a WH chooses not to stack BS at all, and stacks only WS, then ALL of his abilities will actually get a dps increase due to reduced mitigation. Sounds similar to me. Now I am not opposed to a WH change just doesn't seem like a 'unique' situation that an earlier poster was claiming. Further I think a lot more research should be done to as to what exactly should be done. My gut feeling is that there would be a problem having BS bonus and STR count towards executions even with a tactic. Further how much exactly does the WH seem shorted by on stats? Currently BS is 475 end game. Should BS exactly equal a WEs STR? Does range count for exactly zero? I would guess that having the counter for executions be dodge instead of parry might be something worthwhile as well. Most people have more parry than dodge.

So what should BS be on a WH end game?

[Christoph]

If a WH chooses not to stack BS at all, and stacks only WS, then ALL of his abilities will actually get a dps increase due to reduced mitigation. Sounds similar to me. Now I am not opposed to a WH change just doesn't seem like a 'unique' situation that an earlier poster was claiming. Further I think a lot more research should be done to as to what exactly should be done. My gut feeling is that there would be a problem having BS bonus and STR count towards executions even with a tactic. Further how much exactly does the WH seem shorted by on stats? Currently BS is 475 end game. Should BS exactly equal a WEs STR? Does range count for exactly zero? I would guess that having the counter for executions be dodge instead of parry might be something worthwhile as well. Most people have more parry than dodge.

So what should BS be on a WH end game?

-sigh- Listen m8 I am not gonna argue any more with you, if you chose not to understand there is nothing I can do. Things are extremely simple, Engineer depends on 1 stat for direct DPS increase (Bal) and 2 stats for overall DPS increase (Bal and WS). WH depends on 2 stats for direct DPS increase (Str and Bal), and 3 stats for overall DPS increase (Str, Bal and WS). If you factor other stats like both Melee and Ranged crit chance required for WHs, and solely Ranged crit chance required for Engies, things look even more grim for WH. How on earth is that similar? That is all there is really, I am sure everyone else must have realized the problem by now.

There is only one solution to this, and that is fix all attacks to scale with strength. I am 100% sure that this will happen eventually because clearly Mythic has demostrated that this was their intent with the Chosen (fixing magic attacks to scale with strength) and SW, SH (melee mode scales with Ballistics). As it has been said a thousand times already, WH is the only class that depends on 2 stats for direct DPS increases, and this will lead to huge balancing problems down the road, as people continue to gear up and new end game content is introduced. Fixing this requires work from behalf of Mythic (reworking itemization, etc.) but if this does not happen the balancing problems that are going to occur eventually will be a lot more difficult for Mythic to adress.

[Rimarlk]

-sigh- Listen m8 I am not gonna argue any more with you, if you chose not to understand there is nothing I can do. Things are extremely simple, Engineer depends on 1 stat for direct DPS increase (Bal) and 2 stats for overall DPS increase (Bal and WS). WH depends on 2 stats for direct DPS increase (Str and Bal), and 3 stats for overall DPS increase (Str, Bal and WS). If you factor other stats like both Melee and Ranged crit chance required for WHs, and solely Ranged crit chance required for Engies, things look even more grim for WH. How on earth is that similar? That is all there is really, I am sure everyone else must have realized the problem by now.

There is only one solution to this, and that is fix all attacks to scale with strength. I am 100% sure that this will happen eventually because clearly Mythic has demostrated that this was their intent with the Chosen (fixing magic attacks to scale with strength) and SW, SH (melee mode scales with Ballistics). As it has been said a thousand times already, WH is the only class that depends on 2 stats for direct DPS increases, and this will lead to huge balancing problems down the road, as people continue to gear up and new end game content is introduced. Fixing this requires work from behalf of Mythic (reworking itemization, etc.) but if this does not happen the balancing problems that are going to occur eventually will be a lot more difficult for Mythic to adress.

Interesting. I just am hoping that won't make the WH OP and get it nerfed into the ground like Witch Elves are seemed to be heading due to overwhelming cries.

[Darkpheonix]

Interesting. I just am hoping that won't make the WH OP and get it nerfed into the ground like Witch Elves are seemed to be heading due to overwhelming cries.

Which they shouldn't, but it also would not be unreasonable to have their damage reduced to a WH damage or vice versa. Unless they restore the survivability of the WH the entire reason for them having reduced damage doesnt exist anymore.

[Rimarlk]

Which they shouldn't, but it also would not be unreasonable to have their damage reduced to a WH damage or vice versa. Unless they restore the survivability of the WH the entire reason for them having reduced damage doesnt exist anymore.

I've played a friend's 40 WH and RB doesn't really make me a super survivability machine. 1v1 it's nice but when you have 5 other people it is almost useless because all they have to do is get behind you.
The only way to protect yourself with RB is back into a corner and hope everyone that hits you is melee.
Great for 1v1's but Pierce Armor is much more effective for taking out a target via armor debuff.(DO NOT GO INTO A WE IS BETTER THREAD. JUST POINTING OUT A FACT) lol.

[Xae]

I've played a friend's 40 WH and RB doesn't really make me a super survivability machine. 1v1 it's nice but when you have 5 other people it is almost useless because all they have to do is get behind you.
The only way to protect yourself with RB is back into a corner and hope everyone that hits you is melee.
Great for 1v1's but Pierce Armor is much more effective for taking out a target via armor debuff.(DO NOT GO INTO A WE IS BETTER THREAD. JUST POINTING OUT A FACT) lol.

What makes RB awesome is the short cooldown. 5 Seconds of Parry, followed by a 5 second disarm. 1 on 1 this means melee classes spend 1/3rd of their time unable to attack you. You basically get a free 10 seconds to wail on melee classes.

[Stickemup]

Not every execution uses Ballistics!

The Witch Hunter has more spec options, allowing for more varied gameplay.

You wanna focus on your gun? Stack Ballistics. You wanna focus on your sword? Stack Strength. You wanna be mediocre? Stack both.

Search through the forums - stacking pure Strength or pure Ballistics is viable for WH.

Edit: Just to be thorough, here's a post on stacking Ballistics: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3165114&postcount=4

[Rimarlk]

What makes RB awesome is the short cooldown. 5 Seconds of Parry, followed by a 5 second disarm. 1 on 1 this means melee classes spend 1/3rd of their time unable to attack you. You basically get a free 10 seconds to wail on melee classes.

Yes. 1v1. But for anymore then 1v1 it is next to useless unless you can somehow position yourself a certain way. Don't get me wrong. It is a nice tool to have 1v1.