SM weapon choices

[Azaael]

Hi Chuck, long time reader, first time poster D:

I've read many a topic on swordmasters, looked through google at as many sites as I could, and even pranced through (haha, elf...prance. Get it?) all of the other forum affiliates listed on the WAR main site.

That being said, riddle me this, batman: how is it no one seems to know if SMs can dual wield or not? Now, I have no idea whats officially been said by Mythic, but from what I've gathered, they can most definitely dual wield. Case in point: the concept art.

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/CnAT100711.jpg

Thats most definitely a sword behind him, in his other hand. Also, in half of the pictures they have in the same section as the swordmaster art, there are dual swords, a la main-hand/off-hand style:

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/CnAT100723.jpg

Obviously, I could be wrong, but dual wielding seems like it would fit in very nicely with a class that dances around, that'd be pretty.

If anyone has links or heard or saw something pointing to the contrary, please point it in my direction.

[Krulltak]

That's a sword sheath, not a sword.

The second piece of art, however, makes it much more likely, seeing as how it appears to be a perfect pair of a long and short sword. Very good find.

[Azaael]

That's a sword sheath, not a sword.

The second piece of art, however, makes it much more likely, seeing as how it appears to be a perfect pair of a long and short sword. Very good find.

...well, ok. Crap. That makes sense. However, that doesn't explain the dual swords they have pictured!

Figure that one out, smartie pants :/

[Edit:] Did you edit your post, or did I completely miss the second part? Either way, I still deem you a smartie pants, and I am angry with you. At you? No, with you.

[Earth Dragon]

If you ask me, SM was a bad choice for the tank. White Lion would have made a better tank, considering they are harder to kill on the table top. Now with 7th, the SMs are most definitely more offensive then the WLs, and everything is just backwards.

[Krulltak]

If you ask me, SM was a bad choice for the tank. White Lion would have made a better tank, considering they are harder to kill on the table top. Now with 7th, the SMs are most definitely more offensive then the WLs, and everything is just backwards.

TT does not represent the lore though.

Not to mention most of WAR's fluff is being taken from........fourth edition I think?

[Konrad Siegesruf]

TT does not represent the lore though.

Not to mention most of WAR's fluff is being taken from........fourth edition I think?

I guess it's taken from 4th to 7th edition, with the lore mostly being from 6th and 7th.

[Azaael]

If you ask me, SM was a bad choice for the tank. White Lion would have made a better tank, considering they are harder to kill on the table top. Now with 7th, the SMs are most definitely more offensive then the WLs, and everything is just backwards.

I didn't play TT, nor do I know much about the lore regardless of edition. I do, however, know that an evasion tank, which quite frankly is what the swordmaster will be, is right up the elvish alley.

Elves are fragile, they're tiny, and they like magic. Seems strange that any class coming from the elvish world would do anything but try not to get hit.

Moreover, a tank's role isn't exactly just to sit there and get hit. Its to make sure everyone else doesn't. Whether that be by taking all the incoming damage and absorbing it yourself, or making it so no one gets hit, the role is still fulfilled.

And, still further, swordmaster seems more like an off-tank, or maybe a secondary line of defense if the "real" tank messes up. Order has two super tanks, Ironbreakers and KotBS, and then SMs to back them up. Destruction has Chosen and Blackgaurds, with black orcs to back them up.

I really can't imagine Swordmasters being an unbelievably large factory of damage, but as the secondary defense, what good would they do without an extra boost in damage?

I'm not sure why I went on so long about that, I am so bored. Someone give me betaz. :(

[Ceandric]

That's a sword sheath, not a sword.

The second piece of art, however, makes it much more likely, seeing as how it appears to be a perfect pair of a long and short sword. Very good find.

Might it not also be a greatsword and a longsword? Greatsword for two hand use, and longsword for one hand/shield?

[Phoenix]

or could it be that shadow warriors/White lions dual wield. I think the options are gonna be limited to a 1H sword and shield for a more defensive oriented one and a 2H sword for a more offensively oriented one.

[Ojike]

That's a sword sheath, not a sword.

The second piece of art, however, makes it much more likely, seeing as how it appears to be a perfect pair of a long and short sword. Very good find.

If you ask me that looks like 2 equally long swords. the look exactly alike at the tip etc.

And yes they will probably dual wield. The probably have a sword instead of a shield to, just because they use magic and swords.

[Crunchie]

If they can dual weild I would actually play one....

I hadn't considered it before, because I always thought 1 sword, weird dance moves, probably not as much health as the other tanks in the game because of his extra deflection abilities.... But dual weilding adds too much coolness not to have a go as one..

[vehemoth]

Tiny? No. Elves are tall. They are however slender

Evasion Tank?

It was recently discovered that swordmasters can utilize a sword and board. They will have martal skills, but evasion tank might not be the most accurate. I would classify them as a Martial Melee Magic tank

hmmmmmmm


Swordmasters are an MMM Tank. And they are delicious.

[ScottyM]

If you ask me that looks like 2 equally long swords. the look exactly alike at the tip etc.

I concur with this statement.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

It is a scabbard in the right hand, this can be seen on the Tier 1 concept art.

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/SMas01.jpg

[Eleazar]

It is a scabbard in the right hand, this can be seen on the Tier 1 concept art.

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/SMas01.jpg
Exactly

You'll also notice:
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/HighElves/Careers/Swordmaster.php

They use the same stance, face, sword artwork in all tiers, it is clearly a scabbard. I seriously doubt that the Swordmaster will dual-wield. It seems clear that if you want defense you go for the sword and board and for offense you will have your greatsword, which is needed for many abilities. They also mentioned that the tank archetypes are all about slow heavy hits while the Melee DPSers are fast strong attacks.

[Azaael]

I'm not much of a sword expert, but the two swords I linked to in my original post are not the same sword. I suppose its possible that the longer one (and yes, one is definitely longer) is the greatsword, and the shorter is a longsword...but that just seems like too small of a difference.

Look at them both, if you were to hold either with two hands, the hilt would be unbelievably large, like, three times a big as your hand. That'd be pretty silly, if you ask me. Seeing as the right one is what I would estimate as no more than like 5 inches shorter, the most probable answer I can come to is that they are main-hand/off-hand swords.

Yes, fine, they are just concept pieces, and maybe they're not to scale or something, but gosh darnit, I am convinced that is evidence for dual wield.

[Azaael]

Tiny? No. Elves are tall. They are however slender

Evasion Tank?

It was recently discovered that swordmasters can utilize a sword and board. They will have martal skills, but evasion tank might not be the most accurate. I would classify them as a Martial Melee Magic tank

hmmmmmmm


Swordmasters are an MMM Tank. And they are delicious.

Slender is what I meant by tiny, they're twigs.

And yes, evasion tank it was it looks like they will be. Maybe not an evasion tank like FFXI's ninja, where they did some crazy spell that made them super evasive, but look at two major skills we've seen so far:

1) Wall of darting steel. They super evade, block incoming ranged attacks, and hurt people near them. Disregarding the obvious use of the word "evade," that sounds pretty evasive to me.

2) Vortex. AoE knockback. Pretty straight to the point "don't hit us" mechanic.

On top of that, their combo system is based on balance. Now, we don't know much about what that means, but its probably pretty safe to say that getting hit will do something to reduce your balance, other wise calling it balance is pretty stupid. They're going to need to not get hit, so that they can continue dishing out the punishment.

All speculation, of course, but thats really what it sounds like.

[Eleazar]

I'm not much of a sword expert, but the two swords I linked to in my original post are not the same sword. I suppose its possible that the longer one (and yes, one is definitely longer) is the greatsword, and the shorter is a longsword...but that just seems like too small of a difference.

Look at them both, if you were to hold either with two hands, the hilt would be unbelievably large, like, three times a big as your hand. That'd be pretty silly, if you ask me. Seeing as the right one is what I would estimate as no more than like 5 inches shorter, the most probable answer I can come to is that they are main-hand/off-hand swords.

Yes, fine, they are just concept pieces, and maybe they're not to scale or something, but gosh darnit, I am convinced that is evidence for dual wield.
I don't know what you are referring to but the concept art for the Swordmaster is showing him with a scabbard in his right hand and a longsword in his left. There isn't any debate, that's what is drawn. You can send the artist a complaint email about his scaling of a rough frame of a scabbard if you want :P

Now for the pairs of swords, are they linked to from a Swordmaster page or is there any evidence that Swordmasters can use them? The Shadow Warrior will probably be the one dual-wielding but with everything people want Mythic to come down from heaven and tell them directly what will and won't be in.

Yes the Swordmaster is an evasion based tank but I don't understand where dual-wielding comes into that.

[ChosenOne]

Silhouette recognition = no dual wielding for swordmaster. Sorry.

We have yet to have concrete evidence that any melee type class will have more then two choices. Be it sword/board and two hander, or bow/dual wield, or dual wield/two hander or any other combination. We have seen plenty though that basically states this two choice standard.

[Azaael]

I don't know what you are referring to but the concept art for the Swordmaster is showing him with a scabbard in his right hand and a longsword in his left. There isn't any debate, that's what is drawn. You can send the artist a complaint email about his scaling of a rough frame of a scabbard if you want :P

Now for the pairs of swords, are they linked to from a Swordmaster page or is there any evidence that Swordmasters can use them? The Shadow Warrior will probably be the one dual-wielding but with everything people want Mythic to come down from heaven and tell them directly what will and won't be in.

Yes the Swordmaster is an evasion based tank but I don't understand where dual-wielding comes into that.

I wasn't talking about the first link. I see its a sheath now, I was wrongsies.

What I'm trying to suggest comes from the second link in my original post: there are two pictures of dual swords. I suppose it could be shadow warrior related, but in the section they are under, there are two pictures of shadow warriors (and they are holding a bow in each), and the rest (probably 80% of the total) are of SMs. For reference, I'm talking about the October '07 concept art on the main site.

I can't imagine they would show some greatswords, which is what the first set of weapons appear to be, then show two very very very similar swords and expect us to understand that its for shadow warriors. They look exactly the same! Maybe thats just elven standard.

Dual wielding is very easy to fit into an evasion tank, the way you fight with two swords requires not only balance (which is another key thing for SMs) but you need to flow. If you flail wildly, not much is going to get done, and you'll probably just end up clanking your swords together. I mean, you could make the same argument for any weapon. How would a sword/board make them evasion based? How does a huge greatsword make them evasive?

It really makes no difference to me, I'm just trying to figure out what might be, because I am bored and beta-less. I'm probably going to use a two hander either way.

[Dankard]

Actually I think nobody argues that it would make sense that swordmasters could dual wield! It's pretty obvious that because of them being very agile, and supposed to be (at least from an elfe point of view) the bestg sword users. The probelm is not about how realistic it could be (anyway it's a fantasy game), but more that some people think that dual wielding is going to be reserved for melee dps.

And well if you ask me, it doesn't make much sense, at least it doesn't make more sense than a tank wielding a great weapon. Both or offensive in the same way. And I'm allmost sure I've seen some IG pics of Black Orcs dual wielding, so the whole arguement would fall. However, I'd allmost be happy if Sword Masters couldn't dual wield! I mean they're allready awsome, but if they start to be elfish Jedis (like P.B. said) then it might attract to many people...

P.S.: By the way If I'm not mistaken, I had hear that dual wielding would give some extra % to parry, which would allmost make dual wielding more defensive than using a great sword...

[Konrad Siegesruf]

There's also the possibility that they just are showing similar looking greatswords and longswords side by side, as we know Sword Masters can use sword and board.

[Gemini]

Those swords could mean any number of things. It could mean dual-wielding, it could be a 1h and a 2h, though there wasn't much diffrence. It could also be seeing which one got a better response, which one was more liked. I mean, it is concept art after all. There is concept art of Orc Shamans too, but we know that got shot down.

[Delolith]

There's also the possibility that they just are showing similar looking greatswords and longswords side by side, as we know Sword Masters can use sword and board.

That is possibly the most probable case. However, there is no reason they should not allow swordmasters to dual wield. Despite this fact I doubt they will dual wield. I can see that the one path will be the path of Vaul that is the longsword + shield (defenssive) path and the other been the path of Khaine (offenssive) which will probably be the two-handed path. I doubt the third path will be a dual wielding path cause that would be just...a bit flat for the swordmasters. Seeing the duality of their characters been torn between swordmanship and magic I think it is rather viable to suggest that the third path will probably be a magic augmentation path which will increase their sword dance dmg which from what we have seen are magic based (corporeal, spiritual etc) or increase the dmg of the weapon buffs + give some special other utility effects on these procs (chance on hit) like silencing/snaring/bleeding etc. For example If I am not mistaken the Blade of Leaping Gold buff transforms all dmg done with blade dances into corporeal dmg from spiritual and adds a chance to inflict additional corporeal dmg with each swing. Nature's Blade has a chance on the other hand to do extra damage plus debuff the attributes of your opponent. So the third path could boost the dmg or give some extra utility on these buffs and in general the magic portion of the blade dances. Maybe increase the duration of your Wall of Darting steel or the knockback factor/degree of range for Vortex etc.

Delolith

[Konrad Siegesruf]

I can see that the one path will be the path of Vaul that is the longsword + shield (defenssive) path and the other been the path of Khaine (offenssive) which will probably be the two-handed path. I doubt the third path will be a dual wielding path cause that would be just...a bit flat for the swordmasters. Seeing the duality of their characters been torn between swordmanship and magic I think it is rather viable to suggest that the third path will probably be a magic augmentation path which will increase their sword dance dmg which from what we have seen are magic based (corporeal, spiritual etc) or increase the dmg of the weapon buffs + give some special other utility effects on these procs (chance on hit) like silencing/snaring/bleeding etc. For example If I am not mistaken the Blade of Leaping Gold buff transforms all dmg done with blade dances into corporeal dmg from spiritual and adds a chance to inflict additional corporeal dmg with each swing. Nature's Blade has a chance on the other hand to do extra damage plus debuff the attributes of your opponent. So the third path could boost the dmg or give some extra utility on these buffs and in general the magic portion of the blade dances. Maybe increase the duration of your Wall of Darting steel or the knockback factor/degree of range for Vortex etc.

Delolith

I also think that the last path might be the "magic" aspect of the Sword Master. And if one is gonna call the two other paths such names, it is most likely the last is the Path of Hoeth :).

[Delolith]

I also think that the last path might be the "magic" aspect of the Sword Master. And if one is gonna call the two other paths such names, it is most likely the last is the Path of Hoeth :).

Good thought...the path of Hoeth...hmmm sounds poetic enough;)

Delolith

[Azaael]

That is possibly the most probable case. However, there is no reason they should not allow swordmasters to dual wield. Despite this fact I doubt they will dual wield. I can see that the one path will be the path of Vaul that is the longsword + shield (defenssive) path and the other been the path of Khaine (offenssive) which will probably be the two-handed path. I doubt the third path will be a dual wielding path cause that would be just...a bit flat for the swordmasters. Seeing the duality of their characters been torn between swordmanship and magic I think it is rather viable to suggest that the third path will probably be a magic augmentation path which will increase their sword dance dmg which from what we have seen are magic based (corporeal, spiritual etc) or increase the dmg of the weapon buffs + give some special other utility effects on these procs (chance on hit) like silencing/snaring/bleeding etc. For example If I am not mistaken the Blade of Leaping Gold buff transforms all dmg done with blade dances into corporeal dmg from spiritual and adds a chance to inflict additional corporeal dmg with each swing. Nature's Blade has a chance on the other hand to do extra damage plus debuff the attributes of your opponent. So the third path could boost the dmg or give some extra utility on these buffs and in general the magic portion of the blade dances. Maybe increase the duration of your Wall of Darting steel or the knockback factor/degree of range for Vortex etc.

Delolith

The magic aspect of swordmasters is part of what they do. Its not "Hey I swing, and sometimes do some magic hurty." Its, "Hey, I swing, and even though I don't always use it, have the option to always be hurty with magic."

It would be very easy to have magic damage buffs in any of the mastery trees, they don't really need a whole separate mastery tree just for that.

That said, I think its pretty unlikely they will dual wield, even though no one is really giving a convincing argument. I guess I'm just coming to terms with the fact that they will not be what I expect them to.

[Azaael]

There's also the possibility that they just are showing similar looking greatswords and longswords side by side, as we know Sword Masters can use sword and board.

Again, they look almost exactly the same. And, as I said before, neither of those could possibly be wielded with two hands and not look absolutely ridiculous.

It could be faulty drawing, it could be them being lazy, I don't know. But as it stands, that doesn't make sense.

[Azaael]

Silhouette recognition = no dual wielding for swordmaster. Sorry.

We have yet to have concrete evidence that any melee type class will have more then two choices. Be it sword/board and two hander, or bow/dual wield, or dual wield/two hander or any other combination. We have seen plenty though that basically states this two choice standard.

Booya, disciple of Kain.

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/DarkElves/Careers/Disciple.php

"Wields twin ritual blades, or carries a single blade and ritual chalice." Score one for me.

[Eleazar]

Booya, disciple of Kain.

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/DarkElves/Careers/Disciple.php

"Wields twin ritual blades, or carries a single blade and ritual chalice." Score one for me.
Isn't that two choices?

[ChosenOne]

Isn't that two choices?

Yes, he proved my point without realizing it. Sssshhhhhh, lets not tell him though so he will keep doing that.

[Delolith]

Taken from beta news:

These Core skills automatically improve as you gain ranks; once you learn them, they won't require any further investments. Moving beyond that, each career will have three paths available to Master, each of which emphasizes one specific facet of the career's abilities. While the Core skills represent a more automatic progress, the pathed skills are heavily player-controlled."

That means....Path of Vaul is the defenssive path....Path of Khaine is the offenssive path. If there is a path for dual wielding which exactly specific facet of the class is going to represent? Isn't dual wield and 2h use a more offenssive approach to the Swordmaster abilities? Does it bring anything new to the table? Isn't magic a VERY important facet of the class? I doubt there will be dual wield tree. If there is dual wield abilities they are gonna be probably incorporated in the Path of Khaine tree along with the 2h abilities. But I am pretty sure there will be a magic augmentation tree because this class has a duality of character torn between melee and magic with main focus on melee and a rather important part of magic (not throwing fireballs out of your fingers and such but still weaving the winds of magic through your blade).

Delolith

[Azaael]

Yes, he proved my point without realizing it. Sssshhhhhh, lets not tell him though so he will keep doing that.

Hmm...ok, I didn't think I would need to highlight parts, but I guess I do.

Sure, thats two choices, but I was more targeting the part where he said "Silhouette recognition." Who the hell knows what everyone will have. Hammerers have, what? Three choices? Maybe more? Axe/hammer, axe/axe, hammer/hammer, super hammer? Super axe? Thats a pretty silly basis to decide what people have, no one knows anything about the classes at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe there aren't any dual wielding healers on order.

My booya stands. Score two for me. Three if you count both of you missing my point.

[ChosenOne]

Hmm...ok, I didn't think I would need to highlight parts, but I guess I do.

Sure, thats two choices, but I was more targeting the part where he said "Silhouette recognition." Who the hell knows what everyone will have. Hammerers have, what? Three choices? Maybe more? Axe/hammer, axe/axe, hammer/hammer, super hammer? Super axe? Thats a pretty silly basis to decide what people have, no one knows anything about the classes at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe there aren't any dual wielding healers on order.

My booya stands. Score two for me. Three if you count both of you missing my point.

Good lord, we can speak of it and you still think you proved a point.

Hammerers two choices are dual wielding hammers and two handed hammers. So...booya? :rolleyes:

You really arent getting the whole jist of this. There doesnt have to be a dual wielding healer and I dont think anyone even brought that up so what the hell are you talking about?

But just to prove you really dont know what you are talking about, there was some dev chatter once about warrior priests and dual wielding hammers.

The Silhouette Recognition is something the devs have been Very clear on. The quickest way to recognize is by what someone has in their hands. This isnt rocket science here pal.

To try and explain ourselves so you can understand, you quoted me saying how there will most likely be just two choices for melee classes and you went and posted about disciples having the choice of dual wield and one weapon with chalice. Thats two choices thus you proved OUR point not your own. So once again, thank you for that and hopefully you can understand.

[Gemini]

And as a side note, yes, there is another dual-wielding support class on Order, the Warrior Priest.

And the hammerer thing, really, they hammer things, thats it. No axes, no crossbows, just hammers.

[Azaael]

Good lord, we can speak of it and you still think you proved a point.

Hammerers two choices are dual wielding hammers and two handed hammers. So...booya? :rolleyes:

You really arent getting the whole jist of this. There doesnt have to be a dual wielding healer and I dont think anyone even brought that up so what the hell are you talking about?

But just to prove you really dont know what you are talking about, there was some dev chatter once about warrior priests and dual wielding hammers.

The Silhouette Recognition is something the devs have been Very clear on. The quickest way to recognize is by what someone has in their hands. This isnt rocket science here pal.

To try and explain ourselves so you can understand, you quoted me saying how there will most likely be just two choices for melee classes and you went and posted about disciples having the choice of dual wield and one weapon with chalice. Thats two choices thus you proved OUR point not your own. So once again, thank you for that and hopefully you can understand.

You need to be more specific, then. I assumed by saying there was a silhouette recognition, that you meant exactly what that means. Namely, that classes would be, for the sake of argument, doubled on the opposite team.

I don't see why you keep talking about the two choices thing. Thats exactly what I'm not talking about. I don't care if anyone brought up the point of there being no healer that dual wields before me, I'm bringing it up. To raise a point, mayhaps?

I don't really see the point in trying so hard to act as though I am retarded, either. I understand exactly what you are saying, congratulations, you are right. I was under the impression hammerers can use axes, or hammers, two handed or otherwise. If they can't, they okie dokie. Super duper.

MY point is that there isn't really a connection between the disciple and any healer on order, at least in terms of weapons. Someone said WPs can dual wield, but I am also under the impression that isn't right.

How does everything on a forum turn to hostility? I was kidding around with the "booyas," thats why I chose such a stupid word. Also, I like saying it. Booya.

I actually started this thread to get answers, no one has really given me anything very good, I keep asking questions so that we can get some solid freakin answers.


[Edit:]
You really arent getting the whole jist of this. There doesnt have to be a dual wielding healer and I dont think anyone even brought that up so what the hell are you talking about?

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? I...why? That doesn't make any sense with your argument. So, silhouette recognition just means there are only two weapon choices for each class? That sounds like a poor choice of words for what that means, then.

[Nastu]

WoW you still didn't get his point..... lets draw a picture for you ok?

Melee class for example can have 2 out of 3 options:
1. 2h weapon OF ANY TYPE
2. 1h weapon OF ANY TYPE and a shield
3. 2 1h weapons of ANY TYPE

IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT KIND OF WEAPON....

Do you see it now?

[Azaael]

WoW you still didn't get his point..... lets draw a picture for you ok?

Melee class for example can have 2 out of 3 options:
1. 2h weapon OF ANY TYPE
2. 1h weapon OF ANY TYPE and a shield
3. 2 1h weapons of ANY TYPE

IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT KIND OF WEAPON....

Do you see it now?

No...way. Theres no way this is possible. Is this some sort of joke? Theres no way this many people can be so confused as to what I'm saying.

Using the idea that everyone gets two weapons...to prove that everyone can only get two weapons is circular logic. I'm not saying that isn't the case, I'm saying look at what I'm suggesting, because theres a possibility.

The idea of silhouette recognition is that each class has its counter, or "replica" on the opposing team, not that everyone gets two weapon choices. Now, and try to follow this one, if Disciples can use dual weapons, then someone else would need to dual wield.

Stop trying to explain to me what hes saying, I fully understand that. The only way to prove what I'm saying isn't the case is to show me a healing class on Order that dual wields. Saying everyone gets two ing weapons is moot, because what I'm proposing essentially shuts that idea down. If Warrior Priests dual wield, show me.

I just can't even comprehend how stupid this is. I'm asking for one thing, and everyone responds with something I am not talking about, then says I'm an idiot for talking about something no one brought up????

[Edit:]

You know what? Never mind. This is getting pointless. I try and give my point of view on things, and people show off their epeens trying to shut me down.

I guess you can't have a debate on a forum, who knew?

[VeriusCarth]

You guys are being pretty unreasonable to Azaael.

Silhouette Recognition =/= Two options.

However, we're having two options. Silhouette Recognition as an argument against something that's the exact same as what you're denying is just silly. Before you said anything about this being about all melee classes, it was only about Swordmaster, and then you told Azaael that the melee thing was his argument. Beside that, the only classes to have shown two options so far are tanks, and then that Warrior Priest was a Wild Card. However, with the Disciple being support, and having two options, we can assume that this isn't solely going to be the case. Thus, take Archmage for example. Thus far, we have Staves. Also, Witch Hunters have one confirmed option, Gun off-hand, and Main-hand weapon. The page (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Empire/Careers/WitchHunter.php) on the official website says that they can make use of various types of Main-Hand weapons. With what's listed, essentially giving them three choices. Now, I know you'll say that those aren't 'wielding' choices, however... the argument has previously been made about what Dwarf Hammers can wield in reference to the number of options they have, so this is fair game for the same thing.

All that is well and good, but it leaves to be wondered: Where in your mind does it make sense that having already one option different from their 'Iconic' look will retain their 'Silhouette Recognition' while a third won't?
And as I am to understand, Swordmasters will be wielding... oh... say... Swords. While Archmages have Staves. At the same time, Shadow Warriors have Bows. Now, I'm sure at this point, someone will say, "Oh, but Shadow Warriors also use Swords in melee!" and there we have the rub - With Shadow Warriors having Swords, and Swordmasters having swords, then... g'bye Silhouette Recognition, by your definition. However, if you go the way of thinking, "But Shadow Warriors will also have bows, so then you'll realize it's definitely a Shadow Warrior, and not a Swordmaster, I can continue with my argument. That said, White Lions will have Axes. Every class here has a monopoly on their type of weapon, the exclusion being Swordmaster and Shadow Warrior, but as I've said, going that way gets you caught up in another thing entirely.
All that said, if each class has a monopoly on their main weapon, and they've already got two weapon options, and, according to you, doesn't break 'Silhouette Recognition' I fail to see the sense you make. Also, if you mention anything dealing with a character's armor, I'd like to point you to this:

The Silhouette Recognition is something the devs have been Very clear on. The quickest way to recognize is by what someone has in their hands. This isnt rocket science here pal.

At this point, you're twisting your argument.

Evidence of the fact: You really arent getting the whole jist of this. There doesnt have to be a dual wielding healer and I dont think anyone even brought that up so what the hell are you talking about?

To try and explain ourselves so you can understand, you quoted me saying how there will most likely be just two choices for melee classes and you went and posted about disciples having the choice of dual wield and one weapon with chalice. Thats two choices thus you proved OUR point not your own. So once again, thank you for that and hopefully you can understand.

He brought up the Disciple, and he's talking about that, and you even admit it in the same post.

Cut him some slack -- He's new here, he's already admitted his lack of knowledge in some respects, and you guys are being pretty harsh.

That said, it's perfectly reasonable to imagine that Swordmasters might be able to Dual Wield. They're not conventional tanks to begin with, and 2h swords are more cumbersome than 2 one handed swords, so who's to say they won't get dual wielding? It's definitely not even a stone's throw from the logic of Swordmaster being a tank while using a 2 hander. It actually makes more sense, even if it doesn't pair with the lore.

[Azaael]

You guys are being pretty unreasonable to Azaael.

Silhouette Recognition =/= Two options.

However, we're having two options. Silhouette Recognition as an argument against something that's the exact same as what you're denying is just silly. Before you said anything about this being about all melee classes, it was only about Swordmaster, and then you told Azaael that the melee thing was his argument. Beside that, the only classes to have shown two options so far are tanks, and then that Warrior Priest was a Wild Card. However, with the Disciple being support, and having two options, we can assume that this isn't solely going to be the case. Thus, take Archmage for example. Thus far, we have Staves. Also, Witch Hunters have one confirmed option, Gun off-hand, and Main-hand weapon. The page (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Empire/Careers/WitchHunter.php) on the official website says that they can make use of various types of Main-Hand weapons. With what's listed, essentially giving them three choices. Now, I know you'll say that those aren't 'wielding' choices, however... the argument has previously been made about what Dwarf Hammers can wield in reference to the number of options they have, so this is fair game for the same thing.

All that is well and good, but it leaves to be wondered: Where in your mind does it make sense that having already one option different from their 'Iconic' look will retain their 'Silhouette Recognition' while a third won't?
And as I am to understand, Swordmasters will be wielding... oh... say... Swords. While Archmages have Staves. At the same time, Shadow Warriors have Bows. Now, I'm sure at this point, someone will say, "Oh, but Shadow Warriors also use Swords in melee!" and there we have the rub - With Shadow Warriors having Swords, and Swordmasters having swords, then... g'bye Silhouette Recognition, by your definition. However, if you go the way of thinking, "But Shadow Warriors will also have bows, so then you'll realize it's definitely a Shadow Warrior, and not a Swordmaster, I can continue with my argument. That said, White Lions will have Axes. Every class here has a monopoly on their type of weapon, the exclusion being Swordmaster and Shadow Warrior, but as I've said, going that way gets you caught up in another thing entirely.
All that said, if each class has a monopoly on their main weapon, and they've already got two weapon options, and, according to you, doesn't break 'Silhouette Recognition' I fail to see the sense you make. Also, if you mention anything dealing with a character's armor, I'd like to point you to this:



At this point, you're twisting your argument.

Evidence of the fact:

He brought up the Disciple, and he's talking about that, and you even admit it in the same post.

Cut him some slack -- He's new here, he's already admitted his lack of knowledge in some respects, and you guys are being pretty harsh.

That said, it's perfectly reasonable to imagine that Swordmasters might be able to Dual Wield. They're not conventional tanks to begin with, and 2h swords are more cumbersome than 2 one handed swords, so who's to say they won't get dual wielding? It's definitely not even a stone's throw from the logic of Swordmaster being a tank while using a 2 hander. It actually makes more sense, even if it doesn't pair with the lore.

I told myself I would refrain from saying anything more on these forums, period, but I must say thank you. My hope for rational people being present in this game is born anew.

[ChosenOne]

Ok azaael lets start over.

What I mean by silhouette recognition is that when you come running onto the battlefield the game is set up so that the other side should be able to quickly determine your class.

In earlier threads I made my point that by having two classes of the same race be able to use similiar weapon combinations comes close to breaching this silhouette recognition.

You are RIGHT, the disciple and warrior priest are not connected in this silhouette recognition ideal.

The disciple is tied in with the blackguard, witch elf, and sorceress in the silhouette recognition. These four are not supposed to appear too similiar so that they are not recognizable from each other.

Better?

[Delolith]

Well in case they make 3 paths for the Swordmaster that actually focus on the 3 different wield styles with with abilities for these styles + some generic abilities then I think they gonna gimp the choises of the class. Cause you will actually be able to specialise in only 1 tree and maybe choose a few of those generic abilities from the other trees. I don't see this happening cause Mythic people are smart. IF they are going to incorporate dual wielding it is gonna be a small small tree with a few abilities in the Path of Khaine (offenssive path) and will not make a whole tree out of it. These paths are supposed to represent the different aspects of the class. He is not just a martial master wielding weapons with supreme effectivity/style. He is also a caster. So do expect if not a whole tree a part of abilities which implement his magical capabilities (see that I do not say spellcasting here). THIS and only this is the reason apart from the silluette recognition which has been a bit fubbared with the dark elven choises that I think that there won't be any dual wielding and that has NOTHING to do about how rational is for them to dual wield. Of course who would dual wield better than a master of the said sword. Yes but it brings nothing to the table since the offenssive path of the class is covered by iconicness (2handed wield). You do understand Azaael that I do not argue with you of whether the swordmasters should be able to dual wield. I agree that a swordmasters should be able to dual wield. I am just poiting to you some reasons that they will probably don't. And if they do...this will probably gimp the choises of specialisation of the class cause most of which you are going to choose is gonna be VERY dependant on the weapon you choosing AND making obvious to your enemy what kind of abilities you have chosen. Just think of it a bit. The trees are gonna be about the same style for all classes. You won't see 3 trees of 15 abilities for all classes and they will make 3 trees of 30 abilities for swordmasters just to make the 3 different wield styles viable and unique not just between those styles but uniqness within the same wield style.

Delolith

[Dankard]

@ above: actually path of vaul focuses on shield spells for obvious reasons. Since it's supposed to be the defensive maestry, people going down this maestry will most of the time use a shield. But if dual wielding was in, I don't see any reason why the should make one way relying on dual wielding and the other one relying on using greatswords...

There could be one maestry relying on physical skills and that would be mainly offensive, and another way that would rely on magic improvements and would be somewhere in between of the offensive and the defensive way. And so you would be able to dual wield or 2hand, no matter which of the two maestries you would pick.

I'm not saying dual wielding should be in by the way. I even think it would be bad for the population. Swordmasters allready look really cool, so making them some kind of Jedies would just be too much. They would look so awesome, that many people would pick the class to plas a dual wielding DPS...

[Kelthalis]

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/wallpapers/WAR_swordmaster_reg.jpg

Your telling me that in his left hand thats a sheath?
That is a sharp freaking sheath.
its also nearly on the ground. Could be dragging...and if it were a sheath it would be more in a different angle placement wise. no one uses a shath going straight down, thats retarted.
maybe holding it in his right hand yes, but imo most characters are shown as right handed, so unless they drew him lefty, i dont believe its a sheath.

[Eleazar]

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/wallpapers/WAR_swordmaster_reg.jpg

Your telling me that in his left hand thats a sheath?
That is a sharp freaking sheath.
its also nearly on the ground. Could be dragging...and if it were a sheath it would be more in a different angle placement wise. no one uses a shath going straight down, thats retarted.
maybe holding it in his right hand yes, but imo most characters are shown as right handed, so unless they drew him lefty, i dont believe its a sheath.
Read the rest of the thread before you make assumptions.

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/CnAT100707.jpg

It's a sheath.

[Tzepic]

It's Definetely a sheath you can tell from these two pictues of art.
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/SMas01.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/SMas02.jpg

You just can't see his hand as well in the upper teir pictures because of his flowing armor.

I really doubt the Swordmaster will be a dual wielder when they are doing damage they will be useing their trademark Greatsword. In the concept art with the two sword one next to eachother and one smaller, the smaller one I'm guessing is the version of the sword that will be used for when the Swordmaster is going Sword and Board.

[Ranien]

The latest grab bag states that swordmasters won't get dual-wield.

[Templar4993]

from everything we have seen or heard, there is not real evidence that the SM can dual wield, but its still a possibility as they are the tanking class. Most tanking classes are allowed dual wielding i believe. Also that whole discussion on each side will have their equal, well the Disciple aint the only guy who has dual swords.....LOOK AT THE FRIKIN BLACK GUARD (SOOO AWESOME)

[Ceandric]

from everything we have seen or heard, there is not real evidence that the SM can dual wield, but its still a possibility as they are the tanking class. Most tanking classes are allowed dual wielding i believe. Also that whole discussion on each side will have their equal, well the Disciple aint the only guy who has dual swords.....LOOK AT THE FRIKIN BLACK GUARD (SOOO AWESOME)

There is real evidence that the SM does NOT get dual wield :)

Grab Bag #22

Q: Will Swordmasters be able to dual wield?

Swordmasters will not get to dual wield as their DPS specialization comes from using two-handed “great weapons”. They will have access to a Sword + Shield for those wishing to participate as a defensive tank. However, Swordmasters tend to get less shield related abilities and more “great weapon” related ones.

[Delolith]

The last sentence of the dev quote just brings a faint smile to my lips :-D More abilities for greatswords of Hoeth ftw!

Delolith

[Ranien]

The bit about shields makes it sound like the shield abilities are more of a gimmick for the people who won't be used to the idea of a shieldless tank.

Plus didn't another of the grab bag questions state that swordmasters wouldn't suffer -near- as much as the other tanks when not using a shield?

I wonder if the swordmaster's masteries will go something like this:

Tank spec w/ shield - best defense / lowest damage
Tank spec w/o shield - lower defense / higher damage
Damage spec - lowest defense / highest damage

'Course we won't know for sure until Mythic releases the masteries, this is just speculation and I'm probably way off on the middle one.

[liggu]

Hey just a question, is this:

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/SMas01.jpg

The SM's Starting gear?


I see 5 teirs of gear, but you get 40 levels, I think that that being the starting gear as the only reasonable explanation...

With http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/armiesofWAR/highelves/SMas02.jpg
as the level ten gear from the first area.

[Gemini]

T1-T4 armor is for the appropriate tier, I dunno if thats starting armor but I doubt it. T5 is the cream of the crop, and theres even been a few concept arts claimign to be T6, which we can only assume is the absolute best there could possibly be.

[Eastmount]

I know for sure that SM will be able to wield 2 hander and one hander + sheald. So to me it seems very doubtful that they wont be able to dualwield as well. And as you also posted, the concept art shows some dual wielding swordmatser, that must mean something.

[Gemini]

I know for sure that SM will be able to wield 2 hander and one hander + sheald. So to me it seems very doubtful that they wont be able to dualwield as well. And as you also posted, the concept art shows some dual wielding swordmatser, that must mean something.

If you mean the higher teir concept art, compare it to the lower teirs, the second "sword" is actually a sheath. But don't take my word for it, take Mythic's word for it in the January 2008 grab bag. (http://herald.warhammeronline.com/faq/grabBag_january2008.php)

Q: Will Swordmasters be able to dual wield?
Swordmasters will not get to dual wield as their DPS specialization comes from using two-handed “great weapons”. They will have access to a Sword + Shield for those wishing to participate as a defensive tank. However, Swordmasters tend to get less shield related abilities and more “great weapon” related ones.

[gecko155]

Yes, I did not read through the entire thread. I got bored.
Haha!
So here is my two cents.
If it is simply repeat, just tell me.

The career preview video for the Swordmaster of Hoeth clealry identifies that even with the use of the Path of Vaul, one does not have to utilize a long sword and shield, as there are abilities in the path of vaul that are designed for the greatsword as well. This of course means you can pick up SOME abilities from the path of Vaul for combination with others.
I imagined one specced out for the path of Vaul would find it better to use the sword and shield option.

In all honesty I find it unlikely that Swordmasters will Dual wield as it just throws in another mechanic they have to dabble with (In 4 months). If they were going to dual wield I think they would have included that in the career preview video.
WYSIWIG seems like a good philosophy on the SM career right now.
Need a refference?
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/29629

It also was mentioned earlier about balance. Yes, an enemy can throw off a swordmasters balance, disallowing him to perform his higher tier attacks.

Personally I like the path of Vaul as it is full of CC debuff attacks. Its not like a healer who ups damage resistance, this lowers damage source. 8D