Ressistance Stacking from Sorc view

[Darayavahus]

At last few patches Sorcerers Dark Magic was nerfed from 50% to 35% Magic Critical Chance (Same as BW) and ressistances were fixed so now they work as intended, but...

There is a annoying thing when i cast a spell which dealt 1200 dmg to a tank.. and now deals 400.. i could kill that tank before, unless he picked me on target first, now i can cast, and cast all the time and i always get silenced, disabled or simply killed. In few seconds from 6K is 0. Few days ago i attacked Swordmaster on afk, it took me 30 seconds to take him down while he was not doing anything.

Screenshot of Ressistance Mitigation:
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1001/resistanceproblemfp6.jpg

I CANT have much more Armor to increase my survivability..
EVERYONE ELSE CAN stack ressistances to drop my dmg output..

One more thing.. BW has two debuffs for ressistances so they can laugh at Sorcerers face. They can drop it by about 300-400, 2/3 of mine Corporeal ressist. Is it fair?

Topic explaining Ressistance problem:
http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109884955/p4

[Ghostwind]

I'm sure Mythic is working on a more interesting mechanic when it comes to resistances. Just play a non-magic class until then. :)

[Balcor]

At last few patches Sorcerers Dark Magic was nerfed from 50% to 35% Magic Critical Chance (Same as BW) and ressistances were fixed so now they work as intended, but...

There is a annoying thing when i cast a spell which dealt 1200 dmg to a tank.. and now deals 400.. i could kill that tank before, unless he picked me on target first, now i can cast, and cast all the time and i always get silenced, disabled or simply killed. In few seconds from 6K is 0. Few days ago i attacked Swordmaster on afk, it took me 30 seconds to take him down while he was not doing anything.

Screenshot of Ressistance Mitigation:
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1001/resistanceproblemfp6.jpg

I CANT have much more Armor to increase my survivability..
EVERYONE ELSE CAN stack ressistances to drop my dmg output..

One more thing.. BW has two debuffs for ressistances so they can laugh at Sorcerers face. They can drop it by about 300-400, 2/3 of mine Corporeal ressist. Is it fair?

Topic explaining Ressistance problem:
http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109884955/p4

And how many spells do BW's get that do corporeal damage? Exactly... the vast majority of BW dmg is elemental. Resists affect both sides equally, and it needs to be fixed.

[TzuDevil]

Set piece gear got a massive buff for resists. Too much IMO.

Cheers!

[frogs99]

Yup - agree that resists are kind of out of whack now and are hurting sorc & BW.

For the OP - I didn't see it in your screenshot - but I was looking for a line where you backlashed yourself for more damage than you hit them for. It happens to me sometimes now where I actually hurt myself more than I hurt the enemy if I get a bad backlash.

[Grubs]

One more thing.. BW has two debuffs for ressistances so they can laugh at Sorcerers face. They can drop it by about 300-400, 2/3 of mine Corporeal ressist. Is it fair?


You seriously should have left this part out. Resist effect every caster class, so instead of alienating one of those 3 class, perhaps you should trying to get all 3 to speak as one voice.

Anyways Corp. affects 3 of a BW spells. 2 if you don't spec Immo. Personally I'd say give your WoP a Corp. debuff as well, but I don't make the game.

I guess the other debuff you speak of is the Ignition tactic, which I don't think anyone uses since it can only proc. off the first tic of Ignite.

My point however is to stick to the resist issue. Once that is resolved you can then discuss the BW Sorc. differences.

[DreadMage]

Set piece gear got a massive buff for resists. Too much IMO.

Cheers!

Not true.

I'll use IB's armor sets as an example

Darkpromise Set gives you 85/89/85 +res total
Invader Set gives you 86/86/86 +res total
Sentinel gives you 72/84/79 +res total
Anni Set gives you +320 spirit res and nothing else

How is this too much on sets? 3 of the end game sets give less than 100 res to each type. Thats a WHOLE SET, not one item. The entire set, 5-6 items giving a total of +100~ or so res.

Sorry, if anything, res needs to be added to the sets, and Willpower set as the Weaponskill equaivalent for casters.

[DreadMage]

Content Edit

1. Reported for flaming.

2. They are set items for a reason. The whole point of wearing a whole set is to get the set bonuses. How do you plan on getting 5 or 6 piece bonuses if you inter-change all the gear and wear 1 Anni 1 Sent and 1 DP item? Use your head. Nothing to do with "Durrr the name matches I'll wear it", it has to do with the fact that certain sets cater to certain specs, and unless you want to be insta-gib'd in end-game dungeons and sieges, you need wards, which are only found on certain gear.

3. You do realize stacking +res Talis means you lose out on other stats. You sacrifice bonuses to other areas to get some resistances. +120 res or +190 life. Big toss up, considering the resistance will only help you against, at best 2 careers in RvR, while the +190 life would be useful in every encounter.

[TzuDevil]

You can easily wear two different sets 3-4 of one 2-3 of another for the combination of gear bonuses (640 Corp resist bonus on my AM if I wanted, which I don't). Add to that, the resists were changed to be specifically Spirit and Corporial for Order gear (anti-sorc), and Elemental and Corporial for destruction gear (anti-BW). It is clear that this was part of the BW/Sorc nerf, and only meant for T4 to give the option of a massive resist stack to players.

Cheers!

[Darayavahus]

Speaking about BW's.. yes i know there are lots of spells using elemental resistance, but there is a pair of spells that outstand them all:

Boiling Blood - Nice Dot damage (565 Dmg with 9 pts. in tree) with Corporeal Ressistance debuff (321 pts.)

Withering Heat - Channeled spell dealing nice Corporeal dmg (1380 splitted on 3 ticks) in addition it has 40% slow effect.

In comparison Sorcerer mirror skills:

Word of Pain - Countdown dmg skill, dealing dmg while 10 sec ends. (575 Dmg with 9 pts. in tree) in addition it lowers target Willpower by 102 pts.

Hand of Ruin - Channeled spell dealing nice Spiritual dmg (388 Dmg each 2 sec, 3 times) no additional effect.

####
Those BW's skills make a lowered ressist combo, and have a slow effecr, which is really useful when someone rushes on you. 321 pts. of Corp. ressist reduction is atleast 1/2 or 1/3 of whole ressistance.

Sorc has willpower debuff which can make some difference in Disrupts, but dmg is dealt with delay, few times i didn't live to long to see Word of Pain has dealt its damage.

[genius loci]

And how many spells do BW's get that do corporeal damage? Exactly... the vast majority of BW dmg is elemental. Resists affect both sides equally, and it needs to be fixed.
Take a look at wardb, a lot. Withering Heat, to start with, and lots of other high-level spells.

And Engi debuff everything in sight's corp resistance ;)

Darayavahus (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=88614) - you forgot GoN. Slow, but IMO it is the single best DoT in the game both in damage and effect. Coming from my Sorceress, that is.

[peo]

This sounds very much like the usual "i couldn't kill him so nerf him" crap.

Since magic ignores armour there needs to be resistance otherwise tanks wouldn't be of much use at all making them obsolete in pvp.

[Sealthedeal]

Withering heat is 4 ticks, and so is Hand of ruin. If you only get 3 ticks, it's cause you took damage, and channeled spells lose 1 tick when you take damage.

Hand of ruin is 448 each tick so (448*4=1792)
Withering heat is 1596 over 4 ticks so (1596/4= 399 per tick)

Overall hand of ruin does more damage than withering heat, but ours has a snare component with it. Also keep in mind that aside from withering heat and pyroclastic surge, the majority of our spells are elemental damage, whereas sorcs are more evenly divided between spiritual + corporeal. Lastly, a magus can debuff spiritual resist whereas we don't have anyone that can specifically debuff elemental.

[Teviko]

This sounds very much like the usual "i couldn't kill him so nerf him" crap.

Since magic ignores armour there needs to be resistance otherwise tanks wouldn't be of much use at all making them obsolete in pvp.

Oh, get over yourself.

First off, resists always made a difference. on my level 24 AM, I can pump up my resistances so ungodly high, sorcs actually decided I wasnt' worth killing anymore

AND THAT WAS PRIOR TO THE BW/SORC NERF.

the problem stands that people advocated for BW's to get nerfed, when they didn't need it. And on the same footing, Sorc's got hit hard, much much harder than a BW.

The problem wasn't the damage a BW could do. IT never was. It was the crit mechanism, which I'll bet my left heiny, is still borked. Only reason noone notices anymore? Is because a BW crits 25% of teh time versus 50% of the time.

Hell, my WH crits more often than that, on a normal day. She doesn't need a combustion mechanism to up her chances.

And now, finally, people figured out: "Hey, I can stack resists!!" And now, BW's and Sorcs are a joke.

Good job whiners and Mythic.

[Xae]

The problem with resists is AoEs. Right now if you are in T4 with out 75% resist to RoF/PoS you are worthless. I won't even bother to heal you, because you will simply be eaten alive.

How do you fix single target damage with out overpowering AoEs?

Order classes already have ways around this. Engineers can debuff both Corporeal Resists and Armor, BWs can debuff Corporeal damage, and Shadow Warriors can bypass resists with Festering Arrow.

Destruction classes on the other hand are not so lucky. Magus can debuff Spirit Damage, while Squiggers and Sorcs have no way to reduce resists. I think what may be needed is a low level tactic in the single target DD lines that allows them to bypass some resistances.

[Moojoo]

The problem with resists is AoEs. Right now if you are in T4 with out 75% resist to RoF/PoS you are worthless. I won't even bother to heal you, because you will simply be eaten alive.

How do you fix single target damage with out overpowering AoEs?

Order classes already have ways around this. Engineers can debuff both Corporeal Resists and Armor, BWs can debuff Corporeal damage, and Shadow Warriors can bypass resists with Festering Arrow.

Destruction classes on the other hand are not so lucky. Magus can debuff Spirit Damage, while Squiggers and Sorcs have no way to reduce resists. I think what may be needed is a low level tactic in the single target DD lines that allows them to bypass some resistances.

Squig Herders do physical damage, and they have a spell to reduce armor, 990 at level 40 (what blocka). They only have a few abilities that does other type of damage like explodin' arrer.

[peo]

Oh, get over yourself.

First off, resists always made a difference. on my level 24 AM, I can pump up my resistances so ungodly high, sorcs actually decided I wasnt' worth killing anymore

AND THAT WAS PRIOR TO THE BW/SORC NERF.

the problem stands that people advocated for BW's to get nerfed, when they didn't need it. And on the same footing, Sorc's got hit hard, much much harder than a BW.

The problem wasn't the damage a BW could do. IT never was. It was the crit mechanism, which I'll bet my left heiny, is still borked. Only reason noone notices anymore? Is because a BW crits 25% of teh time versus 50% of the time.

Hell, my WH crits more often than that, on a normal day. She doesn't need a combustion mechanism to up her chances.

And now, finally, people figured out: "Hey, I can stack resists!!" And now, BW's and Sorcs are a joke.

Good job whiners and Mythic.



Eh what?
I said that if you remove resistances tanks which rely on armour wouldn't function.
The argument that "resistances remove to much damage" is about as flawed as a MDPS complaining about a tank having to much damage mitigation.
You give up things to stack resistance high which means it isn't a problem unless your intent is that magic dps always should one-shot everyone all the time.

On a sidenote, I have said nothing what so ever about the damage from anyone. So don't accuse me of anything like that.

[frogs99]

Part of the issue is that now that resists are in play the sorc/bw aspect of damaging ourselves seems kind of out of whack to me.

I'm not sure hurting ourself more than our opponent is a good thing.

Before "learn2dump DM n00b" - if we don't run at high magic our dps isn't going to amount to anything..

[dornam]

The problem was really only ever BW's with healing debuff and Detonate. Even the devs once stated that Sorcs were not really a problem.

BUT in their eagerness to "fix" things Mythic set out a witch hunt for BW's and Sorcs, and this witch hunt had three steps:

1. Reduction of +Crit chance from 50% to 35%

2. Change of itemisation to give more resists of better resist-types

3. "Fix" of Criticals not being mitigrated by Resists

These three changes nerfed the Sorc INTO OBLIVION when really one change (the third) would have been enough.

[Redurval]

The argument that "resistances remove to much damage" is about as flawed as a MDPS complaining about a tank having to much damage mitigation.

You give up things to stack resistance high which means it isn't a problem unless your intent is that magic dps always should one-shot everyone all the time.


Except you don't give up much of anything.
Except that armour can be pierced, resists can't.
Except that there are multitudes of armour debuffs and abilities that ignore armour; there are not nearly as many resist debuffs and almost no abilities that ignore resists (only things like Flame of Rhuin procs that don't do much damage anyway).

[Xae]

Except you don't give up much of anything.
Except that armour can be pierced, resists can't.
Except that there are multitudes of armour debuffs and abilities that ignore armour; there are not nearly as many resist debuffs and almost no abilities that ignore resists (only things like Flame of Rhuin procs that don't do much damage anyway).

Every single Order RDPS class has at least one way to reduce resists. BWs have 2, Engineers have 2, and SW can completely bypass them.


It is not a coincidence that every non-physical class does two damage types, and can normally debuff one type. Hell, almost every class can do two damage types, and debuff one of them. WP/DoKs are the only exception I can think of off the top of my head.

[Zzulu]

here's the thing

First of all, in the beginning, BW's and Sorcs could ignore resists to a large amount, and their crits were not mitigated at all. This lead to a lot of inflated damage done by the two classes and a lot of whining came as a result. Then this problem was fixed (good fix)

"Detonate" was also for a long time very broken and was dealing something like twice the amount of damage it was supposed to. This was the nr.1 cause of whining, as it caused tremendous amounts of AoE damage which stacked and just ruined teams.

BW's also had the horrible healing damaging debuff (playing with fire) which ruined healers, as it originally did a lot of damage.

There were also about a million BW's around so they always debuffed their damage by multiples, leading to a lot of extra damage.

These above reasons were mostly why people cried about the BW, because they lead to the BW having the best CC and DPS in the game bar none, while it was a very easy and mobile to play class.

Then they nerfed detonate and PWF (a good call, and a sufficient fix) but then also deepnerfed both sorcs and BW's class mechanics by a large margin AND introduced improved resists into the game while keeping the backlash amount the same.

In essence, they fixed things out of whack and without looking at the bigger picture, and all in all, they went too far with their nerfs.

[Redurval]

Every single Order RDPS class has at least one way to reduce resists. BWs have 2, Engineers have 2, and SW can completely bypass them.


It is not a coincidence that every non-physical class does two damage types, and can normally debuff one type. Hell, almost every class can do two damage types, and debuff one of them. WP/DoKs are the only exception I can think of off the top of my head.

1. Ignition (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8209) is broken and thus is so unreliable it's not worth it. It can only proc on the initial ignite tick, making it a 33% chance to proc during ignite. Meaning, highly unreliable. You'd have to actually waste 6s doing nothing but casting/recasting ignite to be fairly sure to get the debuff. Yeah, big chance both debuffs will be on time for more than 1 spell (if even that).

2. SW completely bypass them... with 2 skills. Now were is that benifiting the casters? (Also, I said almost no abilities, not that there are none)

3. Where do Engineers have 2 debuffs?

4. Every single order RDPS? No, SW can BYPASS them with 2 skills and a tactic, but they cannot debuff resists, so no gain for casters. Also, the only ranged elemental debuff is Ignition (as I said, broken).

5. How many elemental debuffs does order have for example? Hmmm, let's see. Gather Your Resolve! (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8008) (30ft range), Phantom's Blade (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9020) (Which needs a melee hit to proc, has a 25% chance to proc and does not debuff that much even when with a 13 Hoeth spec..oh and yeah, there are SO many SM...) and Ignition (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8209) (did I mention it is broken?)

6. Ever heard of Resistance Buffs?
You can add at least 250 (usually more, 250 is just one group buff) to the resistances....

Factor into that that group buffs need nothing (someone casts them and you're good), while especially elemental debuffs are meh
Yeah, corp is a bit better due to BB and Acid Bomb, but Immo is also the tree with a horrific damage scale

[Redurval]

Yay, wrong button

[Xae]

1. Ignition is broken and thus is so unreliable it's not worth it. It can only proc on the initial ignite tick, making it a 33% chance to proc during ignite. Meaning, highly unreliable. You'd have to actually waste 6s doing nothing but casting/recasting ignite to be fairly sure to get the debuff. Yeah, big chance both debuffs will be on time for more than 1 spell (if even that).

2. SW completely bypass them... with 2 skills. Now were is that benifiting the casters? (Also, I said almost no abilities, not that there are none)

3. Where do Engineers have 2 debuffs?

4. Every single order RDPS? No, SW can BYPASS them with 2 skills and a tactic, but they cannot debuff resists, so no gain for casters. Also, the only ranged elemental debuff is Ignition (as I said, broken).

5. How many elemental debuffs does order have for example? Hmmm, let's see. Gather Your Resolve! (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8008) (30ft range), Phantom's Blade (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9020) (Which needs a melee hit to proc, has a 25% chance to proc and does not debuff that much even when with a 13 Hoeth spec..oh and yeah, there are SO many SM...) and Ignition (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8209) (did I mention it is broken?)

6. Ever heard of Resistance Buffs?
You can add at least 250 (usually more, 250 is just one group buff) to the resistances....

Factor into that that group buffs need nothing (someone casts them and you're good), while especially elemental debuffs are meh
Engineers get acid grenade to debuff Corp resists, and an armor debuff on their turret.

Those two abilities are about the only ones SW have that use resists, the others use armor, that they can also debuff.

Both of those debuffs are AoE, you don't need a whole lot of people to use them.

[Redurval]

Are you actually reading anything?
YOU are telling me that complaining about resist stacking is dumb, because an MDPS complaining about armour stacking would be dumb as well.
I tell you that this is not a viable comparison due to multitudes of armour debuffs and armour piercing and armour ignoring abilites.
Then you tell me wohoo how many debuffs there are and actually factor in the armour debuffs. Which I already stated are available in abundance. Which has nothing to do with your first argumentation and is of no relevance to it, because the catch is that there are so many ways to get around armour and not around resists. Which is precisely why your argument was flawed.
I then lay out to you that there are not that many debuffs and you come again with armour debuffs?
Also, the thread is about casters. In what way does a SW bypassing, but not debuffing resist benefit a BW running against a resist wall???

WTF?

[Xae]

Are you actually reading anything?
YOU are telling me that complaining about resist stacking is dumb, because an MDPS complaining about armour stacking would be dumb as well.
I tell you that this is not a viable comparison due to multitudes of armour debuffs and armour piercing and armour ignoring abilites.
Then you tell me wohoo how many debuffs there are and actually factor in the armour debuffs. Which I already stated are available in abundance. Which has nothing to do with your first argumentation and is of no relevance to it, because the catch is that there are so many ways to get around armour and not around resists. Which is precisely why your argument was flawed.
I then lay out to you that there are not that many debuffs and you come again with armour debuffs?
Also, the thread is about casters. In what way does a SW bypassing, but not debuffing resist benefit a BW running against a resist wall???

WTF?

Where Have I said that at all?


Your last line gives a hint to your motives. You don't care about resists you care about your archetype being overpowered. More than just casters do Elemental, Spiritual or Corporeal damage.

[Redurval]

Eh what?
I said that if you remove resistances tanks which rely on armour wouldn't function.
The argument that "resistances remove to much damage" is about as flawed as a MDPS complaining about a tank having to much damage mitigation.
You give up things to stack resistance high which means it isn't a problem unless your intent is that magic dps always should one-shot everyone all the time.
Sorry, somehow got the impression that this was your post, my bad ;) (yea yeah, learn2read...)

Still, I already stated there are mutlitidues of methods to debuff/bypass/ignore armour. So pointing out armour debuffs...to what avail?

Also the thread is about casters, so why should I not point that out?

And while other classes suffer from resists as well, none of them damages themselves while casting.

And why do I want to be OP?
SW don't suffer from resists..does that mean resists are fine then?
There are some debuffs, but there are several buffs as well. And especially elemental debuffs are borked. Where is that okay? Just because I want to actually do some worthwile damage while blowing myself up I want to be OP?

1k/1k resists are easily achievable. Add in buffs you can usually reach 1,4k+ resists in both elemental and corp. So even with an engineer and a BW attacking tghe same target it still gets around 800 corp resists.
And the only real corp damage spells are WH and Annihilate. Annihilate isn't even THAT great and Immo scales rather badly.

The point is:
- At R40, with decent gear, resist capping isn't much of a problem
- There are some debuffs, but especially elemental debuffs are lacking + there are several buffs as well (on both sides)
- While everyone can stack resists I cannot stack armour (or most other classes for that matter). Also, armour can be worked around, resists only through debuffs (see above)
- Sorcs/BWs damage themselves while casting. Some other classes are also affected by the resists, but at least they don't blow themselves up (and several also have physical damage to fall back on, have damage types that the other faction usually doesn't stack to such an extent or don't rely much on non-physical damage anyway)

Sure, you CAN through coordination reduce the resists to a level BW/Sorc can put out good to great damage. But that basically needs several people working just for that one char. Usually, it is more useful to just use some other class that doesn't need as much tending, because it binds too many ressources to support the caster.

Also, as for other classes. They debuff there own damage.. so? Without further debuffing it doesn't do much. What does it help an engineer to debuff 1,4k corp resists to around 1100? Not very much. Sure, you can focus fire something down, but that is not a big surprise.

[Darayavahus]

My last few words:

Every non magical class has armor bypassing through Weapon Skill, even ranged classes benefit from this (i've read about it somewhere in this forum). Those attacks can be parried (or dodged if ranged), blocked. Some classes get additional armor debuff.

Every magical class cant bypass through ressists. Every magical attack can be blocked or disrupted. Then ressists and absorbtions kick in. Some classes can debuff ressists a little.

When Warhammer came out Mage archetypes were suposed to be oposite to Heavy Armor archetypes. If now we consider that Heavy Armor classes have the best block rate and can stack ressists to 60-80% magical mitigation so... the Mage Archetype (Sorc or BW) has no specific role in the game. They can still deal much damage to those who not stacked ressists, but they instantly die against those who stacked.

[Glayween]

So given a single example of someone who decided to piss off sorcs by stacking resists you conclude that resist stacking needs nerf? If someone chooses to stack resists, he sacrifices a lot of other things. I personally go for wounds and toughness because they work against all classes. And 65% is not that crazy - it's only against one of the three types of magic damage ... So if you have problems, your magus will have it easy or vice versa ...

[Ghostwind]

So given a single example of someone who decided to piss off sorcs by stacking resists you conclude that resist stacking needs nerf? If someone chooses to stack resists, he sacrifices a lot of other things. I personally go for wounds and toughness because they work against all classes. And 65% is not that crazy - it's only against one of the three types of magic damage ... So if you have problems, your magus will have it easy or vice versa ...

You don't have to sacrifice anything. I usually have 75% resist vs elemental when teaming without even trying to stack it.

[dornam]

So given a single example of someone who decided to piss off sorcs by stacking resists you conclude that resist stacking needs nerf? If someone chooses to stack resists, he sacrifices a lot of other things. I personally go for wounds and toughness because they work against all classes. And 65% is not that crazy - it's only against one of the three types of magic damage ... So if you have problems, your magus will have it easy or vice versa ...

Whoa, someone should penalize people from spreading Myths around here.

Of all the Spells we have AND USE only Shadow Knives and Chillwind (our weak Dot) is Corporeal Damage. Shadow Knives is very high in our AoE tree that is generally considered useless in RvR except for keep sieges.

So with Spirit you are fine with against 95% of our damage for not destruction specced Sorcs and then it is also only one spell you need to worry about.

And guess what, with Annihilator you get 320 Spirit. Even green and RR-jewlery with a decent belt to go will yield another 500 Spirit and 300 Corp while also offering very good main stats.

Now, in a group, add 300 to all resists from your Runepriest buff.

Voila, 1120 Spirit resist, meaning 65% mitigration - WITHOUT SACRIFICING ANYTHING.

Now add two Talismans - you loose 38 of any stat - and add 360 Spirit again for whooping 1480 resist - meaning 75% mitigration.

And that is even without some really good blue jewlery. With that you can leave one Spirit and add one Corp Talisman bringing Corp up to 800-900 AS WELL if you really need it.

Guess what, that is exactly my setup - and I have unbuffed 7550 wounds, 850 Int and +15% Crit, decent stats all around I would say.

BUT EVEN 65% mitigration is WAY TOO HIGH - it brings our damage WAY BELOW the line of Tanks who have infinitely more survivability, way more CC/utility and no clunky mechanic to bother about. At roughly 40% we begin to be ON PAR with other DPS classes - ONLY ON PAR, not superior. We pay for that with the worst survivability and the worst CC in the game.

And next time before you post you should bother about the facts before spewing out useless drivel you've heard from somewhere.

[Vannila]

And how many spells do BW's get that do corporeal damage? Exactly... the vast majority of BW dmg is elemental. Resists affect both sides equally, and it needs to be fixed.


Thank for question and here is list of BW spells that do Corporeal damage:

Boiling blood
Withering heat
Pyroclastic Surge
Scorched Earch
Slow Boil
Backdraft
Choking Smoke
Annihilate
Funnel Power

[Redurval]

Thanks for posting without knowing anything.
BB is a DoT...horrible damage scale
Slow Boil....basically the same, SB is used for the CD buildup rather than the damage
Scorched Earth...one of the worst spells damage wise. Why would anyone use that? (Except as comb buildup when not using Fiery Reserves)
Backdraft...again, a DoT. A DoT with rather low damage and with one of the worst scales of all BW spells (mainly used for the KB)
Choking Smoke....Silence! The damge is rather meh, also it has a 30s CD
Funnel Power...first: FP is unmitigated anyway. second: FP also damages the BW (non incin spec dooes 87 extra damage and takes 58. incin spec usually does 107 and takes 71)
Pyroclastic Surge... Unless you spec Incin the damage is not that good for a 2s cast (and even then.....so so). You can occasionally cycle it in, but it is not used that much
Withering Heat and Annihilate. Yeah, these 2 are about the only spells doing decent to good damage that are corp (as I mentioned earlier). Annihilate though does damage to yourself as well.

So, thanks for not having a clue

[Ghostwind]

Thanks for posting without knowing anything.
BB is a DoT...horrible damage scale
Slow Boil....basically the same, SB is used for the CD buildup rather than the damage
Scorched Earth...one of the worst spells damage wise. Why would anyone use that? (Except as comb buildup when not using Fiery Reserves)
Backdraft...again, a DoT. A DoT with rather low damage and with one of the worst scales of all BW spells (mainly used for the KB)
Choking Smoke....Silence! The damge is rather meh, also it has a 30s CD
Funnel Power...first: FP is unmitigated anyway. second: FP also damages the BW (non incin spec dooes 87 extra damage and takes 58. incin spec usually does 107 and takes 71)
Pyroclastic Surge... Unless you spec Incin the damage is not that good for a 2s cast (and even then.....so so). You can occasionally cycle it in, but it is not used that much
Withering Heat and Annihilate. Yeah, these 2 are about the only spells doing decent to good damage that are corp (as I mentioned earlier). Annihilate though does damage to yourself as well.

So, thanks for not having a clue

DoTs deal damage too. Seems you have quite a few options when your victim has high Elemental Resists.

I'm DoT specced as a sorc these days since the crit nerf seemed to hurt DD the most. The burst factor is kinda gone.

[Farshatok]

Thanks for posting without knowing anything.
[...]
So, thanks for not having a clue

He posted a list of Corporeal spells, without any other comment. Gee, can you be any more touchy?

[Redurval]

He posted a list of Corporeal spells, without any other comment. Gee, can you be any more touchy?

Which is of what use? Everyone can surf WarDB.
Why should someone throw around abilities without commenting on their usefulness?
Should discussions if viability be centered around broken or useless skills. That is, is that corp debuff great and the answer to everything because there are several corp spells with low damage and bad scale?

Besides, the way he posts this is not really reminding of an intent of purely information provision, now, is it?


DoTs deal damage too. Seems you have quite a few options when your victim has high Elemental Resists.I didn't say we have none. You should not forget however what I posted before. Out of those options, damage wise only WH and Annihilate are really useful. (And FP, self damage tho...)
As for the DoTs. The scale is h o r r i f i c. Endgame one HoT tick can outheal 2-3 DoT ticks...with 0 resists.
You basically have WH (and not everyone specs immo) and Annihilate. Annihilate makes it a must for Close Quarters and not everyone is good with that playstyle (add to that the selfdmg from annihilate and possibly FP AND backlash...)
Also, you have to remember that it is easy to stack just as much corp as elemental resist and that those will still be buffed up usually.
Sure, we have a corp debuff and Engineers have Acid Bomb, but against 1,4k+ resists....
We do have it a bit better than Sorcs probably, but not by that much.
Let's say you spec Immo. You are then degraded to a support role (I imagine it is the same with a sorc DoT spec) that can't kill much (with help and an ignition proc a clothie perhaps).

Also, are poeple taking us for idiots? Are they actually thinking BWs and Sorcs who encounter resist stacking regularly don't know about the possibilities they have (like FP or BB) and use them? And still can't do much about it? Are people really thinking they discovered the grail of resist circumvention (lolol) by browsing through WarDB that no caster ever knew of? And not even being able to back that up with some data that is not of some rvr mid 30 pug or scenario lololpwnzor damage chart?

[Zoricus]

So given a single example of someone who decided to piss off sorcs by stacking resists you conclude that resist stacking needs nerf? If someone chooses to stack resists, he sacrifices a lot of other things. I personally go for wounds and toughness because they work against all classes. And 65% is not that crazy - it's only against one of the three types of magic damage ... So if you have problems, your magus will have it easy or vice versa ...

You have to sacrifice something to stack resists: MYTH

this has been discussed ad-nausium here http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230588

There is no stat or spell that can bypass spell resists.

[Farshatok]

Also, are poeple taking us for idiots? Are they actually thinking BWs and Sorcs who encounter resist stacking regularly don't know about the possibilities they have (like FP or BB) and use them? And still can't do much about it? Are people really thinking they discovered the grail of resist circumvention (lolol) by browsing through WarDB that no caster ever knew of? And not even being able to back that up with some data that is not of some rvr mid 30 pug or scenario lololpwnzor damage chart?

Someone asked, someone answered, no need to make a drama out of it. The guy in the BWvsAFK Chosen was told to L2P:), he didn't make a scene there...just chill.

[Redurval]

Like the WE are chilling when the next "lolol, WE 10k dmg in 0.5s" is being filled with stupid posts? :p

[Gurd]

As an Ironbreaker if I really want to stack resists I have to use up all my talisman slots, a corp tactic and renown pts as well as resist jewellery and only then am I looking at 50%+ on all 3 resistances at once. to do this I am loosing a whole lot of toughness, initiative, wounds and especially strength, so I would be pretty pissed if I wasn't mitigating a lot of magical damage with this build as I had sacrificed so many of my other stats. I may be good at charging down a magic user but not much good at anyting else and even when I get to you I probably wont hit that hard.

[Farshatok]

Like the WE are chilling when the next "lolol, WE 10k dmg in 0.5s" is being filled with stupid posts? :p

Did he say that Boiling Blood is made from Win and Jesus combined? He just listed them. And, personally, I'm chilled. I actually enjoy discussing WE vs whatever with someone that is willing to have a reasonable conversation.

Stop complaining and respec. If the dude is afk and you can't kill him I think you need to rethink your playstyle. Bw's got that backlash, maybe they should stack their own resistances and maybe bring potions. It's not hard to make or buy potions.

You know what, Redurval? I changed my mind. You can be as mad as you want. When people say that you need to respec and bring potions to kill an AFK tank, you've got every right to respond in any way. So do the rest of the casters.

[AirReez]

Stop complaining and respec. If the dude is afk and you can't kill him I think you need to rethink your playstyle. Bw's got that backlash, maybe they should stack their own resistances and maybe bring potions. It's not hard to make or buy potions.

[Redurval]

1. Backlash can't be mitigated in any way
2. Yeah sure, respec. because that will make a huge difference when both resists are about the same.

[Spifnar]

As an Ironbreaker if I really want to stack resists I have to use up all my talisman slots, a corp tactic and renown pts as well as resist jewellery and only then am I looking at 50%+ on all 3 resistances at once.

No, you don't. This is part of the problem. With mediocre jewelry and a set belt you can hit 550 to all 3 resists. Then you add a set bonus and devote 3 talisman slots to resists and you're around 1000 to 2 resists of your choice.

For the most part order only has to worry about spirit/corp. Magus is rare enough that 550 resist to elemental is ok. And the other elemental damage caster is a DPS shaman.

It's mostly the same for destro too. Stack elemental and corp, have a modest amount of spirit resist for WL/AM and hope an SM doesn't debuff you

[Raynos]

Stop complaining and respec. If the dude is afk and you can't kill him I think you need to rethink your playstyle. Bw's got that backlash, maybe they should stack their own resistances and maybe bring potions. It's not hard to make or buy potions.

Normally, I'd say she was overexaggerating - but check out the Bright Wizards forum of this guy who actually *loses* to an AFK Chosen who agreed to help him test things. He used about 5 possible rotations, and even a minimal DPS rotation that kept his combustion below 20 and still got killed by his own Combustion before Chosen died.

This is no joke - Mythic actually nerfed BW/Sorcs so far into the ground that they kill themselves before they can kill anyone who stacks resistance in any meaningful way.

[Ghostwind]

Normally, I'd say she was overexaggerating - but check out the Bright Wizards forum of this guy who actually *loses* to an AFK Chosen who agreed to help him test things. He used about 5 possible rotations, and even a minimal DPS rotation that kept his combustion below 20 and still got killed by his own Combustion before Chosen died.

This is no joke - Mythic actually nerfed BW/Sorcs so far into the ground that they kill themselves before they can kill anyone who stacks resistance in any meaningful way.

This is indeed true against targets with high resists and just about everyone gets better resists as they gear up in sets and such. Sorcs will often find that we put more pressure on our own healers than the enemy's. The general advice on the sorc forum is to do some AoEs and see if some poor sucker has low resists and then attack just him... :p

[dornam]

Yes, my tactic in oRvR exactly. I memorize the names of the people I meet and then pick them out whenever I can.

Alas out of a Zerg of 50+ people, usually there are less than 10 who have bad resists. Hell even 36's are having 50%+ mitigration usually.

Add that nuking anything with a shield is basically useless and RvR becomes a painful experience.

Yesterday we had a group of 4 Sorcs and 2 healers and tried to do the single target burst assist thingie - but gave up fast. Even 4 Sorcs can not outdamage 2 competent single target healers in the timeframe of 4-6s and the unhealed badly geared opponents we could AoE down more efficiently.

Sad story.

[Adaptation]

My sorc is level 31, so top of the bracket of T3, i've read and heard about the T4 resist crisis, i always thought it was bad.

Then i encountered a series of stacked resisted players in T3, i was infuriated, 3 second cast for dealing 5-10% of their health?! Honestly, that is NOT acceptable, especially when backlash hits me for 10-15% of my health.



Those who said 'durr, just dump your combustion/dark magic'. Our class mechanic IS critting, without high dark magic, you can barely kill someone who isn't stacked with resists.

[Zoricus]

Our class mechanic IS critting, without high dark magic, you cannot kill someone who isn't stacked with resists.

edited ;)

10char

[Darayavahus]

You know what is the most irritating thing in Ressist problem?

It affects every casting class. BW and Sorc mostly.. but others that use spells too. And developer team fixes single classes in the first place... this my number one EPIC FAIL.

[Drexciyian]

Really do all you range classes think you get the advantage of range without any downsides?? esp if you're running a spec thats mostly instacasts

[Drexciyian]

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3884/scenariofm2.jpg even if everyone had 65% resist he'd still do 200k dmg whats the problem ?

[Elwinion]

As BW/Sorc at full Combustion/Dark Magic, 50% crit rate, if the damage for a single cast does not exceed 600 damage (pre-crit) you will on average deal more damage to yourself than your target if that target has capped resistance at 75%.

Example:
Crit Rate: 50% (0.5)
Crit Mod: 2.5 (at 100 Combustion)
Explosion Damage: 262.5 per cast on average (0.35 * 750)
Explosion damage can not be mitigated in any way.

Average damage per cast from a 600 point spell when factoring in critical hits:
((1 - 0.5) * 600) + (0.5* (2.5* 600)) = 1050

Damage after 75% resist mitigation:
1050 * ( 1 - 0.75 ) = 262,5

So against a 75% resist target you can only casts spells that can hit for 600+ damage non-crit or you will on average do more damage to yourself than your target.

If you hit a 75% resist target for 800 damage / cast non-crit you will still end up returning about 75% of that damage to yourself on average.

The Combustion/Dark Magic mechanic does not work at all with these kinds of resist levels.
This is why Bright Wizards and Sorcerers are so vocal about the resist issue.

[PandemicUK]

Stop complaining and respec. If the dude is afk and you can't kill him I think you need to rethink your playstyle. Bw's got that backlash, maybe they should stack their own resistances and maybe bring potions. It's not hard to make or buy potions.

because stacking your own resistance affects backlash damage for a sorc or a bw... ah wait no it doesnt...

[Alarnis]

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3884/scenariofm2.jpg even if everyone had 65% resist he'd still do 200k dmg whats the problem ?

Looks like a aoe spamming BW and lots of stupid destro clumping together inside it, with a fair few lowbies with low resists no doubt. All that SS proves is how dumb the destro in that SC were.

[Valkyr]

I see no problem with resistance stacking as it is right now since people stack resists mainly because of bws/sorcs these days. If Bw's and sorcs weren't so deadly to people with low resists, resist stacking wouldn't be so wide-spread. When was the last time you saw some destruction player stack resists/dodges for shadow warriors and such? :rolleyes:

[Farshatok]

I see no problem with resistance stacking as it is right now since people stack resists mainly because of bws/sorcs these days. If Bw's and sorcs weren't so deadly to people with low resists, resist stacking wouldn't be so wide-spread. When was the last time you saw some destruction player stack resists/dodges for shadow warriors and such? :rolleyes:

So, if a class is able to deal huge amounts of damage, it's ok to be able to easily gear so they can't hurt you at all? Nice logic :) You can't really gear against SW's, as they deal mostly physical damage.

[Darayavahus]

Exactly...

1 .Every class can boost its defence against BW and Sorc to 50-75% damage mitigation, so this means almost every 40 lvl character is like a Tank for them. And BWs and Sorcs still hurt themselves by Backslash/Explosion.

2. BW and Sorcs cant make its armor higher than about 1200, so they are easy frags.

It is just not fair.

[genius loci]

2. BW and Sorcs cant make its armor higher than about 1200, so they are easy frags.As if it would matter if they could... armour debuffs are everywhere.

BTW, the only people who don't stack resists are those new to RvR who tend to use RvR or RvRInfluence gear and don't buy any resist talismans. Guess what - once they went itno decent guild they will surely get hints from other players that reststs are critical. At R28 I have around 600 Spirit on my Engi with only two +80 talismans (rest is from gear) and it means I almost ignored Corporeal (have some though), as trinkets usualy have Elemental plus one of the other resists and same goes for amrour parts, only purples have all 3 resists on them. What I say is that is relly easy to do that, and you can sacrifice armour rating to get other usefull stats, as it's so often debuffed and debuffs use the base armour (never confirmed it myself) rating. So instead of using that high armour rating set gear, I get greenies with resists. Won't be true for higher levels, but T3 is actually quite a run for most casual players like me.

[Gurd]

From my experience I would say that you guys are exaggerating the problem of people stacking resists, I'm not saying there isn't a problem with backlash but if you ask most order tanks I bet not that many use their talisman slots for resists , most will be slotting strength wounds and some toughness. Most like to use sentinel which has no resists , I expect most ironbreakers will have less than 50% esp on Corp and elemental. Swordmasters probably have more but unless they really gear for it I doubt you will find many looking at 75%. Also the larger resist rings like angered warchain have been taken out of bastion and removed from the game, so in reality if you want to go anywhere near 75% you have to sacrifice many of your other stats and gimp yourselves in other ways.

[Darayavahus]

Ok let me explain my point of view.. Sorcerer one.

U say that it's not that easy to make large ressistances against us. Our skills are mostly Spiritual or Corporeal damage.

Lets take most popular skill: Hand of Ruin in 9/13/0 Spec.

It will take 428 Dmg + 200 Int Bonus (1000 Int, max what Sorc can have) that gives: 628 Dmg

Lets say every hit will be a Critical, even i have 20% from items and 35% Critical chance from Darkmagic. (55% Chance)

628 x 2.5 Crit multiplayer (100 Darkmagic) will give: 1570 Dmg with no mitigation, It's a critical hit!

So if u have 50% ressistance mitigation i will hit you for 785 Dmg every 2 seconds. Count down from it Absorbs, heals, HoT potions. In this time i have 35% chance to hit myself for pure 750 Dmg.

How to get that 50% Spiritual ressistance.. it is about 800 Spiritual on defence chart. Just look on this list..

http://www.wardb.com/search.aspx?browse=1.6&filters=46=150

And about Corporeal ressistances, just look on the most set bonuses on Order side, 70% of them add to Corp ressists.

[Ghostwind]

From my experience I would say that you guys are exaggerating the problem of people stacking resists, I'm not saying there isn't a problem with backlash but if you ask most order tanks I bet not that many use their talisman slots for resists , most will be slotting strength wounds and some toughness. Most like to use sentinel which has no resists , I expect most ironbreakers will have less than 50% esp on Corp and elemental. Swordmasters probably have more but unless they really gear for it I doubt you will find many looking at 75%. Also the larger resist rings like angered warchain have been taken out of bastion and removed from the game, so in reality if you want to go anywhere near 75% you have to sacrifice many of your other stats and gimp yourselves in other ways.

...or you could not sacrifice other stats and just have some team mates buff your resists.

[delavey]

Really do all you range classes think you get the advantage of range without any downsides?? esp if you're running a spec thats mostly instacasts

get lost from here with ur i-have-no-clue posts

[Rajael]

On my knight a few nights ago I felt the pain of resists being stacked while he was still glory... With the resist aura running in a scenario (debuffs for around 355 at the time) I was having over 2/3 of my damage getting mitigated by resistances since I dealt elemental damage.

Over half the enemy team must have been around 100% elemental damage mitigation before they got in range of my aura. This really made me useless since then I only did 70 damage a hit heh.

[CptCosmic]

On my knight a few nights ago I felt the pain of resists being stacked while he was still glory... With the resist aura running in a scenario (debuffs for around 355 at the time) I was having over 2/3 of my damage getting mitigated by resistances since I dealt elemental damage.

Over half the enemy team must have been around 100% elemental damage mitigation before they got in range of my aura. This really made me useless since then I only did 70 damage a hit heh.
it is the same like my WL hitting a tank, dmg will be pathetic except everyone can stack resist.

I think reduction is capped but you can still get more to counter debuffs. I guess an easy fix would be to cap stats that if you put more points in, they are wasted.

[Gurd]

How to get that 50% Spiritual ressistance.. it is about 800 Spiritual on defence chart. Just look on this list..

http://www.wardb.com/search.aspx?browse=1.6&filters=46=150

And about Corporeal ressistances, just look on the most set bonuses on Order side, 70% of them add to Corp ressists.

Thats what I was saying in my previous post all the Angered jewellery on that list which gives the big resistances have been taken from bastion Stair and don't drop any more.

I can only speak fron an Ironbreakers perspective but I have personally been trying to stack resistances as I seem to spend half my life standing in pit of shades and it is possible for me to get high (around 60%) in spirit resist if i try but I cant build my corp anywhere near that high without using many talisman slots as well as renown pts and tactic slots (and my elemental is about 15% when I do that).

Order tanks can combine the +320 bonus for spirit and corp if they use 3 peices of Anhilator and 2 Conqeror but to do that you sacrifice 120 in strength and toughness as well as %crit chance from Senti bonus and if you look on wardb you wont find hardly any tanks who use this combo. Senti and Darkpromice is what most tanks aim for and they have no resistances whatsoever.I just dont see how anyone can get near 75% on Spirit and Corp at the same time without basing their entire build around anti magic.

[Adaptation]

"YEA, FOCUSED MIND IS UP, go doombolt spam, mwuhahaha im gonna take out that healer"

Your Doombolt hits X for 150 damage (700 mitigated)
Backlash hits you for 750
Your Doombolt hits X for 150 damage (700 mitigated)
Backlash hits you for 750
Your Doombolt hits X for 150 damage (700 mitigated)
Backlash hits you for 750
Your Doombolt hits X for 150 damage (700 mitigated)
Backlash hits you for 750

Seeing that in my combat log is infuriating



Something has to be done, either by lowering backlash (that still won't fix anything, it will just make lives a *little* bit easier) or cap resists, or at least make the formula different.

[Ghostwind]

Thats what I was saying in my previous post all the Angered jewellery on that list which gives the big resistances have been taken from bastion Stair and don't drop any more.

I can only speak fron an Ironbreakers perspective but I have personally been trying to stack resistances as I seem to spend half my life standing in pit of shades and it is possible for me to get high (around 60%) in spirit resist if i try but I cant build my corp anywhere near that high without using many talisman slots as well as renown pts and tactic slots (and my elemental is about 15% when I do that).

Order tanks can combine the +320 bonus for spirit and corp if they use 3 peices of Anhilator and 2 Conqeror but to do that you sacrifice 120 in strength and toughness as well as %crit chance from Senti bonus and if you look on wardb you wont find hardly any tanks who use this combo. Senti and Darkpromice is what most tanks aim for and they have no resistances whatsoever.I just dont see how anyone can get near 75% on Spirit and Corp at the same time without basing their entire build around anti magic.

Maybe if you get stuff like Oath Rune Of Warding (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1588) and Prismatic Shield (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9248) cast on you?

[Pogo]

I agree with you about all forms of resistances and it effects all caster careers but primarily BW/Sorc, its not biast to any faction...

Resistances: They can be stacked to ridiculous levels without the sacrafice of
much else, 150 resistance tailsmans who thought this was okay?
two or three tailsmans can make up the resistance loss for these skills

Tailsmans:
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=907108 (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=907108)

http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=907148 (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=907148)

http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=907068 (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=907068)

DISCLAIMER: The point of the order/destruction seperation is not to point out balance issues
if any but to logically seperate what skills can be easily stacked on to each other via faction.
Order resistance piercing skills (without tatics)

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9273

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8165

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1514

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9017

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9015

Order resistance piercing skills with tatics!


http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8209

Destro:
http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1695

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8321

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8482

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1927

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1933

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8550

With tatics:

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8600





Summary/solution: Put a hardcap on how much damage
reduction/resistances you can have to one school of magic,
lower the amount of resistances given on gear and tailsmans.
Then scale the skills debuff amount accordingly so people
can keep a resonable amount of damage reduction,
unless ofcourse everyone in the raid uses the right type of skills,
but they could increase toughnesses effect and the hp of most players.

[Lomir]

Eh what?
The argument that "resistances remove to much damage" is about as flawed as a MDPS complaining about a tank having to much damage mitigation.


Lol, there's one BIG fault in this argument.. TANKs are supposed to be the ONLY class with big armour values and melee dmg mitigation.. In case of magical resistances >>EVERY class<< can easily get to max resistances (not only tanks). So no, It's not like a mdps complaining about a tank, it's completely different..!

No, no, no it's quite easy to get over 1000 Resistances, just gems give more than +10% (120 to 160), combining set-items (+300-2 piece), rings (100-200), etc.. Actually specially the "weak rdps" classes pay the biggest price for the resistances-system.. They never have been imba in terms of dmg-output and now their ridicolous, slow damage gets cut by the half. Debuffing isn't a big help, specially when you get over 1500-resistances and guess what?
Already a lot of tanks/mdps reached 1500 resistances!

[Xsorus]

To get 1500 in resistances, you have to give up something on a melee class.

This is just simple item value right here, I stack resists on my Black Orc, to achieve 1500 in say elemental which is the easy one for me I have to gimp one of my resists and i have to lose all my Wounds Talismans.

I found it far better to not run 1500 elemental, but instead drop down it, and raise the other resists up to a decent level, I run around 50% in all 3 (spirit is sitting around 43%)

As for the whines about BW no longer able to kill a tank, Lets really look at in this perspective, If you're able to blow apart a tank in this game on a Caster, then you're going to kill every other class thats not a tank even faster.

That simply doesn't work for a game like this, That is why BW's were nerfed, They were simply killing everyone.

Didn't matter what the class, They blew everyone up, and you can put 4 of them in a scenario and they would completely cause the other side to crumble it was so overpowered

Not only could they blow through a tank in a few seconds, they would kill any healer healing that tank with playing with fire.

BW's were overpowered, Don't even try and kid that they weren't.

They completely destroyed this game for the first 3 months.

[Aeywyn]

"YEA, FOCUSED MIND IS UP, go doombolt spam, mwuhahaha im gonna take out that healer"

Your Doombolt hits X for 150 damage (700 mitigated)
Backlash hits you for 750
Your Doombolt hits X for 150 damage (700 mitigated)
Backlash hits you for 750
Your Doombolt hits X for 150 damage (700 mitigated)
Backlash hits you for 750
Your Doombolt hits X for 150 damage (700 mitigated)
Backlash hits you for 750

Seeing that in my combat log is infuriating



Something has to be done, either by lowering backlash (that still won't fix anything, it will just make lives a *little* bit easier) or cap resists, or at least make the formula different.

If you are seeing that in your combat log you arent playing warhammer :rolleyes:

Resists are capped at 75% it is therefore completely and totaly impossible for those numbers to be in any way true.

If you want to be taken seriously dont make stuff up. :rolleyes:

P.S. Bright Wizards have a far, far worse problem then sorcs... you think it is tough dealing with the very small proportion of order who sacrifice every single talisman slot to get both Corp and Spirit resists up to 75%? Imagine what its like only doing one dmg type that can and is routinely, easily resisted by the entire destro force?....

[Aeywyn]

To get 1500 in resistances, you have to give up something on a melee class.

This is just simple item value right here, I stack resists on my Black Orc, to achieve 1500 in say elemental which is the easy one for me I have to gimp one of my resists and i have to lose all my Wounds Talismans.

I found it far better to not run 1500 elemental, but instead drop down it, and raise the other resists up to a decent level, I run around 50% in all 3 (spirit is sitting around 43%)

As for the whines about BW no longer able to kill a tank, Lets really look at in this perspective, If you're able to blow apart a tank in this game on a Caster, then you're going to kill every other class thats not a tank even faster.

That simply doesn't work for a game like this, That is why BW's were nerfed, They were simply killing everyone.

Didn't matter what the class, They blew everyone up, and you can put 4 of them in a scenario and they would completely cause the other side to crumble it was so overpowered

Not only could they blow through a tank in a few seconds, they would kill any healer healing that tank with playing with fire.

BW's were overpowered, Don't even try and kid that they weren't.

They completely destroyed this game for the first 3 months.

The best post for a WE nerf i've seen in a while lol. :D

[colds]

P.S. Bright Wizards have a far, far worse problem then sorcs... you think it is tough dealing with the very small proportion of order who sacrifice every single talisman slot to get both Corp and Spirit resists up to 75%? Imagine what its like only doing one dmg type that can and is routinely, easily resisted by the entire destro force?....
If you want to be taken seriously, you have to know what you are talking about.

Most of Order will stack Spirit first, because a) most of Sorc's burst damage spells are Spirit based (Impending Doom, Gloomburst, Word of Pain, Hand of Ruin), and b) 99% of the AoE you will encounter in the game as an Order player is also Spirit damage based, from both Sorc and Magus.

Compare this with Order, where you have Bright Wizards doing mostly Elemental AoE, and Engineers, who do Corporeal damage. So most Destruction players try to stack both, with the preference towards Elemental, given the prolifiration of Bright Wizards in the past.

But even then, while Bright Wizards do not have too many Corporeal spells at their disposal, they can debuff that resist, to make those few spells more effective; and they still have a tactic that allows them to debuff all resists by quite a large amount, even though it's partly broken at the moment. Sorcs have no way to debuff their resist whatsoever.

So no, Bright Wizards are not better off, and only a misinformed nincompoop would believe so today.

[Ashanor]

The Combustion/Dark Magic mechanic does not work at all with these kinds of resist levels.
This is why Bright Wizards and Sorcerers are so vocal about the resist issue.

Said this was going to happen months ago. Back when Mythic made the kneejerk reaction to nerf Bright Wizard based on undergeared destruction whining. Hate to say I told you so Mythic.

[DreadMage]

I think people tend to ignore the bigger issues with this.

Sorc/BW say that they can't kill tanks due to resist. They forget other things that make tanks harder to kill.

Compared to MDPS, tanks have, on average, higher resists, higher toughness, higher disrupt and of all things, block.

[Seldoran]

A tank stacked for resist and damage reduction is a tank who will hit like a kitten. We're supposed to be hard to kill.

Unlike other MMOs which shall rename nameless, our Archetype is "Tank", not "Plate hybrid". We are designed to be difficult to kill, if we gear and spec right, and use the right abilties. Our job is to force you to attack us. We shouldn't be attacked otherwise.

If a tank is solo killing you, he is either A) Stacked to deal damage and far squishier in general, or B) your team isn't watching you like they* should.

There is no class discrepency that cannot be fixed with good teamwork, though there are glaring issues that should be fixed regardless.

Like armor penetration.

[Darayavahus]

Seldoran... You are a bit wrong.

1) When the game launched, Mage Classes archetypes were suposed to kill Heavy Armor archetype classes, after few patches they nerfed casters, so they mostly cant kill any class which has some ressists stacked, ressist potion drank, and ressist buff.

2) U say someone who stacked ressists will hit like a kitten, maybe he will against other amoured enemies, but as a Sorc i have 1K armor, and 6K HP, i hit myself when casting, and if some gets to me i have about 10 seconds of life unless healedl, and if some MDPS gets to me i have 5 seconds of life.

To others that think its that easy:

Go play that BW or Sorc:
1) See for yourself if someone cares about debuffing ressistances on targets 100 feet away.
2) See how much time it takes to kill someone who has 50%+ dmg mitigation, or is it even possible when gets some heals.
3) Go on ORvR without a pocket healer and try to kill anything like any melee class can.

[DreadMage]

Seldoran... You are a bit wrong.

1) When the game launched, Mage Classes archetypes were suposed to kill Heavy Armor archetype classes, after few patches they nerfed casters, so they mostly cant kill any class which has some ressists stacked, ressist potion drank, and ressist buff.

2) U say someone who stacked ressists will hit like a kitten, maybe he will against other amoured enemies, but as a Sorc i have 1K armor, and 6K HP, i hit myself when casting, and if some gets to me i have about 10 seconds of life unless healedl, and if some MDPS gets to me i have 5 seconds of life.

To others that think its that easy:

Go play that BW or Sorc:
1) See for yourself if someone cares about debuffing ressistances on targets 100 feet away.
2) See how much time it takes to kill someone who has 50%+ dmg mitigation, or is it even possible when gets some heals.
3) Go on ORvR without a pocket healer and try to kill anything like any melee class can.

Disagree here. Try playing MDPS in T4 ;)

Often times you'll have to check your combat log to see how the hell your most recent death occured. You'll be suprised how many times you go from 100%->0% HP in a blink of an eye.

[Farshatok]

Disagree here. Try playing MDPS in T4 ;)

Often times you'll have to check your combat log to see how the hell your most recent death occured. You'll be suprised how many times you go from 100%->0% HP in a Plink of an eye.

There, fixed :D

[Sahrokh]

How do you fix single target damage with out overpowering AoEs?

It's not a question (weighed question, as it contains an implicit answer) to ask to players, it's not their fault if the game did not get coded well.


http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3884/scenariofm2.jpg even if everyone had 65% resist he'd still do 200k dmg whats the problem ?

My friend playing Chosen (a tank last time I checked) does > 180k in scenario. 20k difference suuuuure is the gap you expect between tank archetypes and the most extreme DPS.
Also, SP is played by NON resist geared low levels, the whole talk does not apply there.


If you are seeing that in your combat log you arent playing warhammer

More realistic numbers at R40 RR40+ would be:
Doombolt hits for 400 (1100 resisted)

Of course, this does not take into account the 370+ adsorbs that often are also present.



As for the whines about BW no longer able to kill a tank, Lets really look at in this perspective, If you're able to blow apart a tank in this game on a Caster, then you're going to kill every other class thats not a tank even faster.

Well, maybe those BWs believed in the podcasts where Paul Barnett explained how casters were the counter to tanks...

[blackcerberus]

Well, maybe those BWs believed in the podcasts where Paul Barnett explained how casters were the counter to tanks...

how could you blame them for it. i mean, i'd also love to believe im the supposed counter to the most defensive chars in the game, and therefore to every other char.

maybe those BWs believed they were getting god mode. kudos to Mythic for proving them wrong....:rolleyes:

[Ghostwind]

As for the whines about BW no longer able to kill a tank, Lets really look at in this perspective, If you're able to blow apart a tank in this game on a Caster, then you're going to kill every other class thats not a tank even faster.

Maybe if resistances somehow differed between the classes? So that tanks had the least resistance? Then every other class might be harder to kill for a caster than a tank.

I think that might have been the idea from the beginning...but then they started handing out resists buffs and resist gear to everyone...

[Darayavahus]

Maybe if resistances somehow differed between the classes? So that tanks had the least resistance? Then every other class might be harder to kill for a caster than a tank.

I think that might have been the idea from the beginning...but then they started handing out resists buffs and resist gear to everyone...

No the problem is that Tanks need large ressistances to tank those freaking Bosses in Instances like Lost Valley, without ressistances there will be no tanking of those.

They made completly wrong when coding ressistances on beta. They gave up lots of magical damage to some NPC's so now they require to have large ressistances to kill them. They cant lower items ressists.

They just need to rework Mage Classes. 75% dmg mitigation should not be possible, while there is still Block Chance, Disrupt, and Absorbtion shields. In many cases my spells which dealt 1200 dmg pre-nerf now deal 400-600 dmg, from a CRITICAL HIT!

[Ghostwind]

I picked up a sentinel belt last night. I now use 4 annihilator + 2 sentinel pieces. I don't use any resist talismans.

My elemental resist is now over 1300...unbuffed....1681 with my self buff.




I repeat: No resist talismans. No active resist stacking - just using the best gear I have gotten my hands on when trying to stack mainly Int + Wounds...

[dornam]

Yeah, easy as hell.

As for the "rock - paper - scissors" thingy - that never worked.

Maybe Mythic intended caster to be Tank killers, but it went horribly wrong.

Now Tanks are THE best offensive class in the game. You see that easily on the setup of the premade "elite" groups.

The highest RR group runs: KotBS, KotBS, Iron Breaker, White Lion (fetch ftw), Warrior Priest, Runepriest

The other had: KotBS, IB, WH, BW (the highest RR char on our Server), AM, RP

Guess what happened when these folks hit our Sorc, Sorc, Marauder, Black Orc, Shaman, Zealot ally group a few times yesterday.

Let's just say it wasn't nice and Sorcs are not viable (BW at least has sime decent CC and very good mobility) in oRvR except for producing a mass of "42", "75" and "112" (that was a crit) hitnumbers while getting hit for 400, 500, 2000 (white lion crit - wtf) and doing 750 to themselves.

[Fruitsclipper]

change resistance cap by distance from enemy.

5ft-30ft (resist cap = 35%)
30ft-65ft (resist cap = 55%)
65ft-100ft(resist cap = 75%)

This is trade off.

[Farshatok]

change resistance cap by distance from enemy.

5ft-30ft (resist cap = 35%)
30ft-65ft (resist cap = 55%)
65ft-100ft(resist cap = 75%)

This is trade off.

I see tank walls holding the line with SH/SW behind them in your suggestion.

[DreadMage]

change resistance cap by distance from enemy.

5ft-30ft (resist cap = 35%)
30ft-65ft (resist cap = 55%)
65ft-100ft(resist cap = 75%)

This is trade off.

I wish.

My suicidal-melee spec'd Magus would love for this to happen.

[Azreell]

change resistance cap by distance from enemy.

5ft-30ft (resist cap = 35%)
30ft-65ft (resist cap = 55%)
65ft-100ft(resist cap = 75%)

This is trade off.

Yes I'll agree to that.... Not...

Sorcs and BW have zero survivability to melee. Our only defense is ranged quite frankly.

So you want us to have a 75% cap when we stay at range?

You must be kidding me.

Oddly enough I keep seeing this post about how this game is ranged based. Yet it sure looks pretty much melee based currently when I log in after last patch.

Tanks are the best offensive characters in game With a Rediculous amount of CC to stop us from casting.
WE/WH can pretty much destroy any caster in game in seconds.
WL/MARA - Fetch/Pull into the melee pile great. Not to mention build time abilities.
The list of melee issues vs us goes on and on.

Want me to keep going?

Tanks currently annoy me the most atm in War. You simply give up nothing for the survivability you have even if using a 2Hander. Sure you will die quicker then a S&B but my god you still have 10x's the survivability of a caster and still the potential to do well over 120k in a scenario. I see it all the time......

You can't have it all.

Guess I'll go back to leveling my tank or DoK it is fun not having to work 10'x as hard to accomplish something and not get instant killed and enjoy the game.

[Seldoran]

Seldoran... You are a bit wrong.

1) When the game launched, Mage Classes archetypes were suposed to kill Heavy Armor archetype classes, after few patches they nerfed casters, so they mostly cant kill any class which has some ressists stacked, ressist potion drank, and ressist buff.

2) U say someone who stacked ressists will hit like a kitten, maybe he will against other amoured enemies, but as a Sorc i have 1K armor, and 6K HP, i hit myself when casting, and if some gets to me i have about 10 seconds of life unless healedl, and if some MDPS gets to me i have 5 seconds of life.

To others that think its that easy:

Go play that BW or Sorc:
1) See for yourself if someone cares about debuffing ressistances on targets 100 feet away.
2) See how much time it takes to kill someone who has 50%+ dmg mitigation, or is it even possible when gets some heals.
3) Go on ORvR without a pocket healer and try to kill anything like any melee class can.


The glorious thing about an MMO is that it's an everchanging concept. In a way, even a perfected MMO is in the beta stage, and shall remain so. When the game launched, casters may have been the Anti-Tank, but as soon as the Anti-Tank is introduced, there is little point in the tank if they don't live as long as something else. This is why the "Tank" role in other PVP games is largely ignored.

Therefore, as the ~tank~, if the ~tank~ is geared and specced to mitigate damage, they should be hard to kill. Despite any buff the Casting classes may receive, the tank should always be the lowest priority target until it's up in your face, stealing your damages and interruptings your spells.

The Tank Archetype is meant to be durable and hard to kill. That's the point of the tank, therefore it is the tank's job to convince you to hit them, even if they are specifically set to absorb your damage. I don't think anyone can say that is wrong.

I said a tank stacked full for Damage Mitigation and Resists, not anyone. Clearly a DPS class with more resists will hit harder, and physical classes will hit you harder, than a tank will.

A tank stacked for defense doesn't do damage, and relies upon CC to draw "player threat". Look at the Black Orc. Shield and Sword, that guy hits like a kitten, but between his snares, disorients, and knockback, he still convinces some people he needs to at least get a snare or knockback coming his way.

If the Tank is killing you in record time, he is likely not stacking said defense, and it is also the fault of your team for not supporting you. Convince your Black Orcs, Chosen, and Black Guards to throw a snare and knock back your way and that Tank will bother you significantly less.

[Vanyel]

Well my mara regularly hits KotBS and IB for lower than 150dmg lol. Lowest I ever saw was 15 dmg demo this is with PB equipped. With an afk KotBS OYG, I think I will die before killing him as well. Maybe i shd go test it out.

The problem is actually not that big in orvr, as you will have so many BW, sorc etc stacking your Rof or PoS that even if the tanks have 75% res, he will still go down fast. If you guys don't look at it in a solo point of view its actually pretty balanced. Furthermore in orvr the healers will be aoe healing anyway so your backlash is pretty much ignored. If res is balanced in a 1v1 way, in orvr all melee classes will just be destroyed immediately. 4 to 5 RoF, acid bombs and god knows what else.

I cant speak for the other classes, but sorc will surely kill the tanks way faster than myself inspite of their 75% res in orvr that is. Oh yea for your backlash, I will just get aoe nuked when i go hit the tank and its way more and regular than your backlash.

[Azreell]

Well my mara regularly hits KotBS and IB for lower than 150dmg lol. Lowest I ever saw was 15 dmg demo this is with PB equipped. With an afk KotBS OYG, I think I will die before killing him as well. Maybe i shd go test it out.

The problem is actually not that big in orvr, as you will have so many BW, sorc etc stacking your Rof or PoS that even if the tanks have 75% res, he will still go down fast. If you guys don't look at it in a solo point of view its actually pretty balanced. Furthermore in orvr the healers will be aoe healing anyway so your backlash is pretty much ignored. If res is balanced in a 1v1 way, in orvr all melee classes will just be destroyed immediately. 4 to 5 RoF, acid bombs and god knows what else.

I cant speak for the other classes, but sorc will surely kill the tanks way faster than myself inspite of their 75% res in orvr that is. Oh yea for your backlash, I will just get aoe nuked when i go hit the tank and its way more and regular than your backlash.

Actually we don't kill tanks fast.

Nor do melee.

Even dps spec tanks don't go down very fast at all.

But, thats another problem entirely.

[Vanyel]

I mean relative to other classes. Your 150dmg is still more than my dmg even after mitigation and resist. Not saying that you will kill them fast just faster than me and pretty much every other classes in the game. Not sure abt SH tho.

If aoe doesnt stack etc, lower resist will be extremely crucial. However, if resist is capped at 40%, can you imagine how much dmg will be dealt per tick by 3-4 RoF or PoS? How can it possibly be balanced in this way? Im not sure if the healers will be able to keep up with just the aoes alone on both side.

Having said these, I agree that casters should have a means to penetrate resist. Perhaps a tactic could be given or a stat.

[DreadMage]

Mass RvR, tanks die just as fast as everybody else.

Nerfing resists will only sway the field farther in favor of RDPS casters.

Stacking 3-4 Pit of Shades will be insta-gib.

[Azreell]

Mass RvR, tanks die just as fast as everybody else.

Nerfing resists will only sway the field farther in favor of RDPS casters.

Stacking 3-4 Pit of Shades will be insta-gib.

You realize that the underlined sentence you wrote is simply impossible correct?

Tanks have More ac, more mitigation,more resists, a shield, and more cc then any class in game.

With that being said when you compare a tank class to a class with less of those abilities of course that class will die faster then a tank.

Just figured out I would point out the error in your post and logic.

[kayeffem]

You realize that the underlined sentence you wrote is simply impossible correct?

Tanks have More ac, more mitigation,more resists, a shield, and more cc then any class in game.

With that being said when you compare a tank class to a class with less of those abilities of course that class will die faster then a tank.

Just figured out I would point out the error in your post and logic.

You missed the part about multiple shade pits killing multiple people in a few seconds. They still can currently, which is why it would be bad to nerf resistances. You cant exactly stop a group of sorcs dropping them at a door while defending a keep.

[DreadMage]

You realize that the underlined sentence you wrote is simply impossible correct?

Tanks have More ac, more mitigation,more resists, a shield, and more cc then any class in game.

With that being said when you compare a tank class to a class with less of those abilities of course that class will die faster then a tank.

Just figured out I would point out the error in your post and logic.

Really?

Not all players can manage to get 75% resist caps with overload against debuffs.

That being said, when you have a tank running around at 1000~ res, which is average for non-stacking players, you have very few advantages over MDPS.

Your 1000 res becomes 622 after a Magus debuff. That means at R40, you got about 30-40% mitigation against http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9485 which can be stacked in 1 location. This spell often crits for 1k+, now imagine running into 4-5 of these in 1 spot, while dealing with all the other random AoE going on.

Your better AC isnt going to help, damage is magic.
Your resists have been debuffed to hell, they won't help
Your mitigation is effectively crap, even with 500-600 toughness
Your shield might block a tick or two, but next pulse you die anyways
Your CC isn't doing anything against ranged casters sitting on a wall

Your only advantage here is better wounds and your shield block rating. Sure, you might survive a few seconds longer than the MDPS around you, but so what? Will you accomplish anything in those extra few seconds?

All a Magus needs to do is blow up his pet while you + your MDPS are sitting in the PoS, and you will be dead before you get up. CC + AoE stack will get you killed just as fast as any other class in the game.

[Azreell]

This sounds very much like the usual "i couldn't kill him so nerf him" crap.

Since magic ignores armour there needs to be resistance otherwise tanks wouldn't be of much use at all making them obsolete in pvp.

Really, So melee almost instant killing us is balanced. I mean we border on obsolete now since our backlash hits us for more then it hits you.

Okie then - Let's give sorcs and BW's resistance similar to what you have against us.

Allow a Sorc or BW to gain 75% resistance to all melee dmg.

Sounds fair, good right?

I mean you already have disables. silences, knockbacks and build times to get within range of us and stop us from casting since we have almost zero escape mechanics so our ranged advantage isn't much of an advantage at all right now.

How does that idea sound to you?

I thought so.........................

[Seldoran]

Really, So melee almost instant killing us is balanced. I mean we border on obsolete now since our backlash hits us for more then it hits you.

Okie then - Let's give sorcs and BW's resistance similar to what you have against us.

Allow a Sorc or BW to gain 75% resistance to all melee dmg.

Sounds fair, good right?

I mean you already have disables. silences, knockbacks and build times to get within range of us and stop us from casting since we have almost zero escape mechanics so our ranged advantage isn't much of an advantage at all right now.

How does that idea sound to you?

I thought so.........................


Sounds fair. Reduce all the range of your abilities to five feet.

That sounds fair, yeah?

[Vanyel]

TBH, casters have half my armor and gain the benefit or range which i think is fair. And pls explain to me how our CC will help us to get to you when the range of those said CCs require us to be at most within 30 feet of you? In addition, you have CCs to stop us from reaching you too.

Anyway the point abt resist is that it is much much easier for range to stack aoes as compared to melee. Again I ask you, with res capped at 40%, how will ANYONE be able to survive the RoF or PoS especially on a ramp? In 1v1 75% res is OP but War is not balanced around 1v1. In orvr, keep fort etc, your backlash should not even be a problem. I've yet to see a sorc die from backlash in keep or fort defense.

If you are talking about 1v1, then yes BW and sorc are the weakest bar none. However, the threat of caster grow exponentially as their number increases.

[DreadMage]

Nerf resistances to 45% cap.

Then, get 5-6 BW/Sorcs + 2-3 healers and you can defend 2-3 WBs of people.

Walk into PoS/RoF -> instant death.

Sounds fun :D

[Sealthedeal]

Disagree here. Try playing MDPS in T4 ;)

Often times you'll have to check your combat log to see how the hell your most recent death occured. You'll be suprised how many times you go from 100%->0% HP in a blink of an eye.

For me personally I have more fun playing my 35 SM, or 33 BG in tier 4 when I'm solo queuing compared to my 40 BW. When I have a healer though I love playing my BW, but I assume I'd like my mdps classes just as much once they hit 40.

It's just nice not having to deal with 6 MDPS making a beeline towards you.

[Azreell]

Sounds fair. Reduce all the range of your abilities to five feet.

That sounds fair, yeah?

Silence,disable , knockdown, knock back , build time. snare , stun.

What do you know the sorc couldn't cast a spell and you are right on top of him.

Stop making like range has any advantage now unless in a keep defense.

[Darayavahus]

Everything brakes on PoS/RoF damage in keeps/forts especially on ramps/stairs to Lord room. This damage is enormous when u cant get to the casters, and u dont have 75% damage mitigation. I must admit that this two skills are too powerful (only in this situation), they dont require LoS so they are pain in the a*s for the attackers.

But on the other hand we (Sorc, BW, Magus) have single targeted spells, when faced 75% damage mitigation those are pathetic. Each deal ~200-400 dmg for a second or two wasted on casting.

So everyone (not mage class) will scream 75% is necessary for survival, especially in keeps/forts. And Mages will whine for their damage output in every other situation.

[Azreell]

Everything brakes on PoS/RoF damage in keeps/forts especially on ramps/stairs to Lord room. This damage is enormous when u cant get to the casters, and u dont have 75% damage mitigation. I must admit that this two skills are too powerful (only in this situation), they dont require LoS so they are pain in the a*s for the attackers.

But on the other hand we (Sorc, BW, Magus) have single targeted spells, when faced 75% damage mitigation those are pathetic. Each deal ~200-400 dmg for a second or two wasted on casting.

So everyone (not mage class) will scream 75% is necessary for survival, especially in keeps/forts. And Mages will whine for their damage output in every other situation.

So because of two particular encounters - you are pretty much saying Every single mage class in this game should spec aoe to be viable. Keep in mind there is a lot more to this game in terms of RvR then RvDoor and Forts.

Why not delete the two other trees then and call it a day?

Can we apply that ideal to every class in game?

[DreadMage]

Easy solution.

1. Reduce resist cap by a bit.

2. Make it so that no AoE spells of the same type can stack on top of each other.

Problem solved.

[genius loci]

1. Why? Much better way is to add penetration to some stat, it solves all problems. Cap that you can exceed with ease means only artificial restriction that only adds frustration.

2. No, as you can't manage them. After all, I spent 1 minute to deliberately DoT as much people as possible and in given skill order (debuff resists, apply long duration DoTs, so on) and at the end - I hit UF and nothing happens, as some other egi did the same? No.

Now if you are talking about ground based AoE - sounds OK, and it's alteady like this for Napalm/Mist, but what about channeled abilities like PoS/RoF?

[DreadMage]

1. Why? Much better way is to add penetration to some stat, it solves all problems. Cap that you can exceed with ease means only artificial restriction that only adds frustration.

2. No, as you can't manage them. After all, I spent 1 minute to deliberately DoT as much people as possible and in given skill order (debuff resists, apply long duration DoTs, so on) and at the end - I hit UF and nothing happens, as some other egi did the same? No.

Now if you are talking about ground based AoE - sounds OK, and it's alteady like this for Napalm/Mist, but what about channeled abilities like PoS/RoF?

My bad.

I meant ground-target AoE spells like Mist/Napalm. This should affect RoF/PoS as well.

This seems pretty fair. Otherwise, end-game battles will be all about stacking as much AoE in choke points and insta-killing people.

[Seldoran]

Silence,disable , knockdown, knock back , build time. snare , stun.

What do you know the sorc couldn't cast a spell and you are right on top of him.

Stop making like range has any advantage now unless in a keep defense.

Hold on, hold on.

So, if you DIDN'T have RANGE but HAD the ARMOR, it ~wouldn't make a difference~, yet HAVING RANGE would remedy that.

So by that logic, range ~is~ an advantage, one that takes a bit more positional thought than "I am max range from the person" as opposed to "I am on the castle wall."

So if you ~had~ the armor and also ~had~ the range, you would, in essence, become a ~tank~ with ~ranged quality DPS~.

Yet people want to lower the ~tank's~ capability for defense and damage, because unlike most classes they have a decent amount of both.

Contradictory much? Giving you more survivability means your damage will just get nerfed more. Imagine that.

There is no class discrepency that cannot be solved with teamwork. I can't speak for other servers, but Pheonix throne has amazing Destruction teams and amazingly bad Destruction teams.

Which do you belong to on your server?

[AdaWinters]

One quick question: why would a support class like Sorc or BW want to tank a tank, and an afk tank for that matter, and then whine that tank is OP because of resist stack?

Your job is support, taunt/interrupt and AoE DoT the playing field. Plink everywhere so that tank will always have to manuever the field.

This 1v1 comparison and the arguments that ensued is not valid. War is a team based game. Each class has its role and functions. Know your role and play your role.

PS: The question that should be asked is not resist mitigation, rather it's effectiveness of your crit damage?

[Darayavahus]

One quick question: why would a support class like Sorc or BW want to tank a tank, and an afk tank for that matter, and then whine that tank is OP because of resist stack?

Your job is support, taunt/interrupt and AoE DoT the playing field. Plink everywhere so that tank will always have to manuever the field.

This 1v1 comparison and the arguments that ensued is not valid. War is a team based game. Each class has its role and functions. Know your role and play your role.

PS: The question that should be asked is not resist mitigation, rather it's effectiveness of your crit damage?

Before posting such crap:
1) How Archetypes in this game were planned. RDPS kill Tanks in range, Tanks kill RDPS in melee.. now it's like i tickle tanks for 300-400 dmg, and when they come to me i get droped to 0 hp in max 10 seconds.
2) RDPS is not support class, especially Sorcerer, if u think those few dmg buffs Sorc have are so cool it should be named BUFFER, the only thing we have for croud control is 5 sec root that breaks instantly on any dmg, and one tactic that knockbacks while criticaly hit by skills from one tree.
3) Sorc is not a supporter.. friendly tanks should block the way to Sorcerer, and he should melt most vital enemy characters on the battlefield. Now i can kill only those which didnt stacked ressists.

[Farshatok]

One quick question: why would a support class like Sorc or BW want to tank a tank, and an afk tank for that matter, and then whine that tank is OP because of resist stack?


*slams his head against the keyboard

[haram]

i must admit i havent read the last couple of pages on this thread so i dont think i bring anything new, but i would liekt o point out that on my magus im running about 84% elemental resistance... and im not even talismaned for that as they all went for corp ress.

some might wonder why, but its just a combination of not havinig good tactics to choose from (so i run the extra 200something ele), various set pieces,and a nifty belt.

I personnly think its way over the top (u might debuff me and i could still have 75% migation) and im really happy that order doesnt seem to stack loads of ele ress.

[Otega]

If you talk about and/or advocate nerfing resists due to tanks running high resists, you're simply going to screw med and light armor wearers out of some serious suvivability, which will inevitably lead to further posts in the near future about nerfing more dmg from casters, melee DPS classes and/or nerfing toughness.

How many times do people need to remind folks that this game is not based on solo 1v1 play. If you're getting killed by a tank, get one of your tanks to guard you, and have your teammates burn said tank down. OR, use your roots/snares and position yourself to never let them get to you.

Some of the best casters I know use their kb's/roots so well to minimize excatly what the op is talking about.

edit: I run about 75% elemental resists and about 50% corp resist. I STILL get burned down when more than 2 casters are focused on me. Likewise, i give up a LOT of toughness and strength. So, if melee get on me, even with my heals, i'm pretty squishy overall. Point is, I give up to get my elemental resists high.

[Ghostwind]

One quick question: why would a support class like Sorc or BW want to tank a tank, and an afk tank for that matter, and then whine that tank is OP because of resist stack?

Your job is support, taunt/interrupt and AoE DoT the playing field. Plink everywhere so that tank will always have to manuever the field.

This 1v1 comparison and the arguments that ensued is not valid. War is a team based game. Each class has its role and functions. Know your role and play your role.

PS: The question that should be asked is not resist mitigation, rather it's effectiveness of your crit damage?

Interesting viewpoint. Know your role, eh? What role do you believe the sorc should have in WAR? We are described as a glass cannon.


Support? I guess you mean by adding a miniscule DoT on the target some melee class is beating on and thereby helping them bring it down. God forbid we could actually kill something on our own. Or did you mean we should be buff bots?
Taunt? I suppose by taunt you mean we should be squishy enough so all classes automatically run for us instead of an "important" class?
Interrupt? What can we possibly interrupt? We have access to KB IF our attack crit and IF the target isn't already immune.
AoE DoT the battle field? We have one short range AoE DoT if we pick it from the right skill tree. It has 2 seconds casting time. You are very likely to die if you stand still at short range.
Perhaps you are right. Perhaps the sorcs should be there to taunt people to kill them first without being able to deal damage... Sounds like rather dull gameplay tho.

[ERJAK]

One quick question: why would a support class like Sorc or BW want to tank a tank, and an afk tank for that matter, and then whine that tank is OP because of resist stack?

Your job is support, taunt/interrupt and AoE DoT the playing field. Plink everywhere so that tank will always have to manuever the field.

This 1v1 comparison and the arguments that ensued is not valid. War is a team based game. Each class has its role and functions. Know your role and play your role.

PS: The question that should be asked is not resist mitigation, rather it's effectiveness of your crit damage?

Our job is NOT support. If it turns out it is support, then I'll sue Mythic for false advertising. I have NO desire to help out the team beyond what I would do with viable RDPS. Our damage right now is pretty well in line with all the other range classes, which means we are NOT viable as we have a suicide switch put into all our abilities.

[Adaptation]

One quick question: why would a support class like Sorc or BW want to tank a tank, and an afk tank for that matter, and then whine that tank is OP because of resist stack?

Your job is support, taunt/interrupt and AoE DoT the playing field. Plink everywhere so that tank will always have to manuever the field.

This 1v1 comparison and the arguments that ensued is not valid. War is a team based game. Each class has its role and functions. Know your role and play your role.

PS: The question that should be asked is not resist mitigation, rather it's effectiveness of your crit damage?

why would a support class like Sorc or BW

why would a support class like

would a support class

support class

support class

SUPPORT CLASS


wat
I believe every source of info about sorcs and BW's out there says otherwise.

[Xae]

It is a difference of classification between MMOs. In EQ you where either Tank, Healer or Support.

[jayce]

There are 2 ways to handle this resist problem.

1. Allow players to stack as much resists as they want but make resists mitigation proc off chance (33%) when damaged. Would require some adjustment to base caster damage due to crit chance.

2. Remove resists from the game. Remove magic from the game. Make casters deal just straight damage that adheres to toughness and maybe even armor as well. Would require some adjustments to base caster damage due to crit chance.

You already have armor and toughness to contend with. Resist just makes more of a hassle to balance. Not to mention absorbsions, blocks and disrupts. There is just too much defense in the game that casters have to put up with and I haven't even mentioned slicense, stun, or disorient. Same goes for melee, but that's for another discussion thread.

[kashak]

The sorcs I know, the good ones absolutely MURDER people. In any fight they have 2/3 of the kills. I cant see how a resistance nerf will make it much better. Maybe they can get 98% of the kills in a group.

[TearsofBlood]

That's huge exaggeration at best - or those sorcs must be really facing utterly lousy players.

Destruction Sorcs can get apparently big number of kills and damage done through AoE, but the number of killing blows and (with the help of addons that show) damage done against individual enemies give a more realistic view than just the number of kills and damage done overall. Much of the damage done is just overall weakening of enemies (and distracting healers from healing tanks and melee by forcing them to heal themselves) for the benefit of other classes who actually take those enemies down.