Fetch absued and needs nerfing

[gorefist]

i start this thread and hopeing to get fetched nerfed/tweaked so its not over the top like it is at the moment.

the reasons why i say this because of the downfall of the skill and how its abused well to much in open rvr and scenarios.. the reason why i say this is below

example
in a fight warband vs warband there is 3 white lions in the order warband staying back near the casters useing fetch pulling in tanks and healers.. as soon as there pulled get mauled to death by 10 order in seconds.. meaning order warbands get more kills than the destro warband by other means.. why the white lion just stays at the back not doing much.. other than useing fetch..

Tweaking Fetch

increase cool down by 25 seconds,giveing the person who is fetched a 30 second immunity from all types of cc,lower the range of fetch by 50ft or 80ft, meaning they cant just hang at the back they have to be in the middle of the fight like other mdps classes

[Omin]

If they increase the KD of Fetch then Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) has to be increased too and if you decrease the range then they have to remove the use of the pet then and make it same as Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410).

As it is now Destruction can avoid Fetch by killing the Lion and it is your fault for getting fetched if you see the lion and leave it alone.

With Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) the order can do nothing to avoid the skill if the Mar is in range.

[Brutalwolf]

I wouldn't have a problem with that at all. As soon as you give White Lions the frontline aoe utility that marauders have that can stack with other destruction abilities. Until then we will continue to "abuse" i.e. use the one skill that actually might be useful in orvr for the class.

[Rarzie]

Two warbands keeping away from each other means you are giving Order the advantage. All the melee advantage is with Destro if they only take the initiative and charge.

White Lions have better things to do than pull Destro when there's meleers planting weapons in their faces. Besides, what's left to nerf in Order that stands out? :P

Play on your strengths and don't stand back to complain when Order stays back and uses their range advantage.

[gorefist]

If they increase the KD of Fetch then Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) has to be increased too and if you decrease the range then they have to remove the use of the pet then and make it same as Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410).

As it is now Destruction can avoid Fetch by killing the Lion and it is your fault for getting fetched if you see the lion and leave it alone.

With Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) the order can do nothing to avoid the skill if the Mar is in range.

hey i wouldnt mind is both had a bigger cool down to be honest... since the range of fetch is way over the top and last time i checked whitelions were mdps aka need to be in the thick of it behind orders tanks.. and if you look at terrible embrace whats the range oh look 65ft. and whats fetch oh 150ft you can see the problem there because i can..

[Darkpheonix]

If they increase the KD of Fetch then Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) has to be increased too and if you decrease the range then they have to remove the use of the pet then and make it same as Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410).

As it is now Destruction can avoid Fetch by killing the Lion and it is your fault for getting fetched if you see the lion and leave it alone.

With Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) the order can do nothing to avoid the skill if the Mar is in range.

Don't forget the taunt.

Also there is an immunity applied against a target after fetch is used on them. Its the one that applies after any knockback. The way those immunities apply though is for all snares, roots etc that it doesnt proc onto you until after the ability that would apply it runs off. Hence it is possible if done right that you can knockdown a person a second before they actually land on the ground (which is when it gets applied). Same goes for snares and the like. Which also leads to a completely different item of them having multiple immunities its not just a single your immune to everything they apply to different aspects.

The pet is the biggest weakness with fetch a group that is paying attention will never get fetched. Even other destruction have come out and posted as much.

[postaler]

I play destruction and i can honestly say that i think fetch is just fine, and I belive it needs no nerfing whatsoever.


Whenever i see a WL on order side i actually pay attention on what his pet lion is doing and most of the time it goes down before it actually managed to snatch someone.

Cryin Nerf on something and starting a thread just like this one is just WRONG in my PERSONAL opinion.

Since Fetch can be prevented by SMART players.

You know everything can´t be eazymode all the bloody time.

[Eisenhart]

As it is now Destruction can avoid Fetch by killing the Lion and it is your fault for getting fetched if you see the lion and leave it alone.

Explain how a melee class kills a lion without being fetched.

Both fetch and terrible embrace needs a higher cooldown and it would all be fine. This has nothing to do with range or pulling into enemy lines. It has something to do with chaindragging the same target.

[Indasoth]

If they increase the KD of Fetch then Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) has to be increased too and if you decrease the range then they have to remove the use of the pet then and make it same as Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410).

As it is now Destruction can avoid Fetch by killing the Lion and it is your fault for getting fetched if you see the lion and leave it alone.

With Terrible Embrace (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8410) the order can do nothing to avoid the skill if the Mar is in range.

Cooldown? Agreed.

The use of a pet is getting to be a crutch for WLs. Slotting speed training and full grown will allow that lion to make it through most Order WBs to get to its intended target. And keep in mind that lag comes into play here as well. I've been Fetched when it looked like the lion was 20 yards away. It was right on top of me, but due to the craptastic (tm) lag on Mythic's servers, I was fetched while it looked like the lion was 20 yards away.

And for those that will inevitably say that you have to waste a tactic slot for Speed Training (Full grown gives the WL 80 STR, so it's still a benefit), you're not really doing much anyway besides Fetch, so that tactic slot won't be missed very much.

And, WL's don't have to deal with Z-axis issues as much as Marauders do.

That's the problem (regarding the highlighted/orange statement above), the WL's do NOT have to worry about being in range at all. They're outside of the range of all the casters and everyone. At 150 yards, they're in ZERO danger from being attacked. They're free to stand there and pull anyone they want.

Marauders, on the other hand have to be within 65 yards, in range of all casters, thus putting themselves (standing still for 2 full seconds) in front of a full line of Order.

Fetch and Terrible Embrace are not on par with each other. Fetch is SO MUCH stronger.

[CorumSM]

Man, I'm getting royally fed up with this.
Anything that Order seems to have that might be a slight advantage just gets whined at forever by the kids until Mythic eventually caves in.
Fetch will be next, a skill which has little to no utility in the main ORvR part of the game.

We've had IB grudge nerfed.
We've had BWs nerfed to pieces.
We had OYG nerfed within 2 weeks due to incessant whining.
Now they announce in herald the bubble nerf is intended thus confirming the relegation of the SM to 'even more paper tank' (ye we are already considered a joke class by many people, thanks for making it even worse).

On the flip side, baneshield, ridiculous WE damage and procs ignoring mitigation, aoe disorients, aoe disables, just goes marching on unaddressed.

Tell ya what, just make Order classes have to wear clown outfits and do a bending over animation in combat. We are already zerged to oblivion on most servers. Drive the final nails in so we all reroll or quit and leave your favoured customer base with a PvE game eh ?

[postaler]

Well you cant really Nerf a skill due to LAG or Terrain issues now can you?

Better of fixing the LAG and Terrain/code issues, Whenever i go RVR and spot a WL i remind ppl to keep an eye on the Lion and most not ALL(becuse that would rend Fetch usless) you can actually manage to avoid it.

And for CD i could agree that a timer of 20-25sec would be fitting for fetch, However i think the mecanics of Fetch is good as it is.

Becuse if Mythic would change it to say match TE it needs to take the pet part out and make it a cast spell from the actuall WL just like TE everything else would not be fair.

Also if you do change it to be exactly like TE it would hit the WL alrdy low population since in my understanding most WL alrdy think their Lion is subpar.

[Eisenhart]

Man, I'm getting royally fed up with this.
Anything that Order seems to have that might be a slight advantage just gets whined at forever by the kids until Mythic eventually caves in.
Fetch will be next, a skill which has little to no utility in the main ORvR part of the game.

We've had IB grudge nerfed.
We've had BWs nerfed to pieces.
We had OYG nerfed within 2 weeks due to incessant whining.
Now they announce in herald the bubble nerf is intended thus confirming the relegation of the SM to 'even more paper tank' (ye we are already considered a joke class by many people, thanks for making it even worse).

On the flip side, baneshield, ridiculous WE damage and procs ignoring mitigation, aoe disorients, aoe disables, just goes marching on unaddressed.

Tell ya what, just make Order classes have to wear clown outfits and do a bending over animation in combat. We are already zerged to oblivion on most servers. Drive the final nails in so we all reroll and quit and leave your favoured customer base with a PvE game eh ?
You say what gives you an advantage gets nerfed. You do know that the definition of OP is to have the advantage? If both are equally strong its "balanced" meaning no advantage.

But i do agree that the balance should go both ways. But Im just a BO and without a duel system i cant test WE vs WH for an example, so i cant tell if my realm needs adjustments.

And for CD i could agree that a timer of 20-25sec would be fitting for fetch, However i think the mecanics of Fetch is good as it is.
Glad we agree ^^ however, terrible embrace needs the same CD also.

[Nevriel]

Cooldown? Agreed.

The use of a pet is getting to be a crutch for WLs.

ROFL. The use of pets on a pet class. hmmmm. The use of daggers on a WE is getting to be a crutch too, they should use HOTDOGS and only Hotdogs.

[Nevriel]

Man, I'm getting royally fed up with this.
Anything that Order seems to have that might be a slight advantage just gets whined at forever by the kids until Mythic eventually caves in.
Fetch will be next, a skill which has little to no utility in the main ORvR part of the game.

We've had IB grudge nerfed.
We've had BWs nerfed to pieces.
We had OYG nerfed within 2 weeks due to incessant whining.
Now they announce in herald the bubble nerf is intended thus confirming the relegation of the SM to 'even more paper tank' (ye we are already considered a joke class by many people, thanks for making it even worse).

On the flip side, baneshield, ridiculous WE damage and procs ignoring mitigation, aoe disorients, aoe disables, just goes marching on unaddressed.

Tell ya what, just make Order classes have to wear clown outfits and do a bending over animation in combat. We are already zerged to oblivion on most servers. Drive the final nails in so we all reroll or quit and leave your favoured customer base with a PvE game eh ?


You hit the nail on the Head

[Indasoth]

ROFL. The use of pets on a pet class. hmmmm. The use of daggers on a WE is getting to be a crutch too, they should use HOTDOGS and only Hotdogs.

Sigh.

Using pets as the excuse of Fetch "being ok" is getting to be a crutch. Having a pet (as compared to TE not relying on a pet) is more than made up for with the range difference.

The problem is that if the Marauder (within 65 yards) is killed, he's dead. If the lion is killed, that affects the WL how? Oh wow, a 15 second respawn timer on the lion.

[postaler]

Sigh.

Using pets as the excuse of Fetch "being ok" is getting to be a crutch. Having a pet (as compared to TE not relying on a pet) is more than made up for with the range difference.

The problem is that if the Marauder (within 65 yards) is killed, he's dead. If the lion is killed, that affects the WL how? Oh wow, a 15 second respawn timer on the lion.

A good healer will notice and heal a Marauder whenever he see that purple tentacle, helping him to finish TE.

Even a good healer is likley NOT to notice the lion running towards the destruction line.

What it all boils down to is this: Mythic didnt make the mirror classes identical, and if they do "nerf" fetch they would most surley need to make up for it someother way and that would most surley result in more nerf cries etc etc.

Marauders have disorient and better AoE attacks.

WL have better single target DPS and fetch... just let it be its fine trust me. run with a smart group and you can work around fetch and you can make TE work for the marauders.

Order is getting steamrolled on most servers atm crying nerf will just make it worse,

[Lerdoc]

Explain how a melee class kills a lion without being fetched.



Becouse it doesnt fetch all of your team ? Hallo, you are not the onbly standing hero there-you have friends, do you?

[Aronmoth]

Man, I'm getting royally fed up with this.
Anything that Order seems to have that might be a slight advantage just gets whined at forever by the kids until Mythic eventually caves in.
Fetch will be next, a skill which has little to no utility in the main ORvR part of the game.

We've had IB grudge nerfed.
We've had BWs nerfed to pieces.
We had OYG nerfed within 2 weeks due to incessant whining.
Now they announce in herald the bubble nerf is intended thus confirming the relegation of the SM to 'even more paper tank' (ye we are already considered a joke class by many people, thanks for making it even worse).

On the flip side, baneshield, ridiculous WE damage and procs ignoring mitigation, aoe disorients, aoe disables, just goes marching on unaddressed.

Tell ya what, just make Order classes have to wear clown outfits and do a bending over animation in combat. We are already zerged to oblivion on most servers. Drive the final nails in so we all reroll or quit and leave your favoured customer base with a PvE game eh ?


I agree totaly. However, if we were wearing clown suits destro would eventually whine about it taking too long to kill us. Why doesn't Mythic just make us completely naked with no abilities, no weapons and every time we log in we should spawn into the destro WC already flaged for RvR. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about leveling a SM to 40 and be absolute no use what so ever to any type of combat. With around half of our abilities being broken and the chain CC that destro seems to have, My 40 SM is nothing more than a meat shield and free renown for who ever gets the killing blow on me.

With also have a level 32 DoK I know how OP they are and have quit playing it due to that. Its almost like destro has one of those Staples "easy" buttons built into their keyboards. And yet, they still feel the need to take BO's with 3 WB's. I don't get it.

[Nevriel]

Sigh.

Using pets as the excuse of Fetch "being ok" is getting to be a crutch. Having a pet (as compared to TE not relying on a pet) is more than made up for with the range difference.

The problem is that if the Marauder (within 65 yards) is killed, he's dead. If the lion is killed, that affects the WL how? Oh wow, a 15 second respawn timer on the lion.


Excuse me but our Pets make up for 25% of our dmg and is not attached to our arms.

Do you play or have researched a WL abilities at all? There is a reason why WL gets a Loner Tactic, because our pet is dead 99% of the time.

[Eisenhart]

I stopped reading here. Have a nice day sir.:rolleyes:
Lies, you cant read!

Becouse it doesnt fetch all of your team ? Hallo, you are not the onbly standing hero there-you have friends, do you?
Youre not answering the question. How can a melee class stop fetch? Im not asking how a team stops fetch.
As far as i know, the only way for a melee class to stop fetch is to run out of the WL masters line of sight. Melee classes doesnt get the luxury of killing the pet before being fetched.

[Lerdoc]

As far as i know, the only way for a melee class to stop fetch is to run out of the WL masters line of sight. Melee classes doesnt get the luxury of killing the pet before being fetched.

Still in rvr you are with your group yes? Then why not one of tanks(witch seem to be quite popular in destro) use taunt? Problem solved.

How could MDPS handle it? Well, on my server WEs and Maras tend to run back if they see lion coming for them while other mdpsers just kil it in 2 secounds. Works for dest on my server in this way. Dont know.. maybe they have a clue or something

[postaler]

Lies, you cant read!


Youre not answering the question. How can a melee class stop fetch? Im not asking how a team stops fetch.
As far as i know, the only way for a melee class to stop fetch is to run out of the WL masters line of sight. Melee classes doesnt get the luxury of killing the pet before being fetched.


Option is that your team m8s attack and kill the lion RUNNING TOWARDS you.

Same way you stop TE! kill the Pet/player performing the action.

and trust me a Marauder have way more HP then the Lion.

[Indasoth]

Excuse me but our Pets make up for 25% of our dmg and is not attached to our arms.

Do you play or have researched a WL abilities at all? There is a reason why WL gets a Loner Tactic, because our pet is dead 99% of the time.

That's funny, because when I play my WL (level 39 currently, so that should answer the second part of your post), when I don't have Loner slotted, I can still hit my CtW's for over 1,400. Wow, that's pretty nice, huh?

So, with Loner slotted, theoretically, I should be doing 1,750 CtW's? A Marauder will never hit anything that hard. Even with Guillotine (yes, I have a T4 Marauder too), I'm not going to hit that hard, because I essentially have 2 1-H. Not a 2-H. The damage out put from a 2-H is much better than a 1-H, hands down, regardless of DW or not.

And if your pet is dead 99% of the time, you suck at pet classes. Period. My lion dies, yes, but he's alive WAY more than dead.

Try slotting full-grown and speed training. That should help with the some of the survivabilit issues.

[Nevriel]

Line of Sight. Root it, snare it, tank taunt it, run away from it, kill it? Lol. If you can't see a giant white snowball running at you then you seriously need a new game to play. And lag aside, because there is a whole assortement of issues that has to do with lag which blame Mythic, not the classes for that.

[Aronmoth]

Youre not answering the question. How can a melee class stop fetch? Im not asking how a team stops fetch.
As far as i know, the only way for a melee class to stop fetch is to run out of the WL masters line of sight. Melee classes doesnt get the luxury of killing the pet before being fetched.[/quote]

Ahhh, you poor thing. Try having your whole group pulled by a Magus, chain disabled and gang banged over and over and over. This is just like destro to whine about a 1 on 1 ability when most of destro's abilities are multi-target. You destro can't seem to win a fight when the odds are even. I'm really getting sick of this game and the constant whining that destro makes about orders gimped abilities. If you think your abilities are so lame destro, try rolling an order toon and play against destro for a while. You'll see...

[Nevriel]

That's funny, because when I play my WL (level 39 currently, so that should answer the second part of your post), when I don't have Loner slotted, I can still hit my CtW's for over 1,400. Wow, that's pretty nice, huh?

So, with Loner slotted, theoretically, I should be doing 1,750 CtW's? A Marauder will never hit anything that hard. Even with Guillotine (yes, I have a T4 Marauder too), I'm not going to hit that hard, because I essentially have 2 1-H. Not a 2-H. The damage out put from a 2-H is much better than a 1-H, hands down, regardless of DW or not.

And if your pet is dead 99% of the time, you suck at pet classes. Period. My lion dies, yes, but he's alive WAY more than dead.

Try slotting full-grown and speed training. That should help with the some of the survivabilit issues.


So oh mighty experience player. Why are you complaing about Fetch and pet abilities when you play one? Do you not see the comparison between Marauders Knockdowns, disorients, disables, yet WL is OP because of 1 ability that has to do with a giant White cat running at you that takes 15secs at least to get there versus the 2sec Marauder ability?

btw. I also have a 40 of every class on every server and I know all too. Please for the love of god stop complaining about every aspect of every class that doesn't exactly mirror it's counter part. Mythic didn't intend to make perfect matches, period.

[Zzulu]

That's funny, because when I play my WL (level 39 currently, so that should answer the second part of your post), when I don't have Loner slotted, I can still hit my CtW's for over 1,400. Wow, that's pretty nice, huh?

So, with Loner slotted, theoretically, I should be doing 1,750 CtW's? A Marauder will never hit anything that hard. Even with Guillotine (yes, I have a T4 Marauder too), I'm not going to hit that hard, because I essentially have 2 1-H. Not a 2-H. The damage out put from a 2-H is much better than a 1-H, hands down, regardless of DW or not.

And if your pet is dead 99% of the time, you suck at pet classes. Period. My lion dies, yes, but he's alive WAY more than dead.

Try slotting full-grown and speed training. That should help with the some of the survivabilit issues.

Well I am a level 40 WL with great gear and I don't think I get 1400' CtW's on even the squishiest of classes. So I'd say you're full of s hit.

[Eisenhart]

How could MDPS handle it? Well, on my server WEs and Maras tend to run back if they see lion coming for them while other mdpsers just kil it in 2 secounds. Works for dest on my server in this way. Dont know.. maybe they have a clue or something
Maybe the white lions on your server doesnt have a clue. On my server, the white lion would just change target and fetch one of the people trying to kill it in melee range.
So this doesnt avoid a melee person from getting fetched, it just changes the target.

Option is that your team m8s attack and kill the lion RUNNING TOWARDS you.

Same way you stop TE! kill the Pet/player performing the action.

and trust me a Marauder have way more HP then the Lion.
Same answer as to the lerdoc, the mates would just get pulled instead, unless youre talking about ranged, in that case youre just not answering the question.

TE can be stopped in many ways. Run up a little hill and its cancelled. Marauder has 2 seconds cast time which allows CC to hit him, hes easily interrupted while his range is 65ft.

While a marauder do have more HP than the lion, then a marauders death requires a healer to use resurrection while the lion is easily resummoned.

Line of Sight. Root it, snare it, tank taunt it, run away from it, kill it? Lol. If you can't see a giant white snowball running at you then you seriously need a new game to play. And lag aside, because there is a whole assortement of issues that has to do with lag which blame Mythic, not the classes for that.
How do you run from a snowball with twice the speed and will always roll towards you. You cant.

Ahhh, you poor thing. Try having your whole group pulled by a Magus, chain disabled and gang banged over and over and over. This is just like destro to whine about a 1 on 1 ability when most of destro's abilities are multi-target. You destro can't seem to win a fight when the odds are even. I'm really getting sick of this game and the constant whining that destro makes about orders gimped abilities. If you think your abilities are so lame destro, try rolling an order toon and play against destro for a while. You'll see...
Im asking a simple question. Its amazing how many order who try to derail the question in so many ways when they know theres no way for a destru melee class to stop the lion.

[Eisenhart]

~ Edited for Content ~
You still didnt answer the question, just another derail since you know melee stand no chance against that ability.
As i said before, the only way i know of is to get out of LoS.

Im not asking for an i win button, im asking for one to have a longer cooldown than 10 seconds for both sides.

I dont see how asking a simple question is complaining. All ive said is that i think both TE and fetch should have longer cooldowns due to chaindragging.

[Nevriel]

You still didnt answer the question, just another derail since you know melee stand no chance against that ability.
As i said before, the only way i know of is to get out of LoS.

Im not asking for an i win button, im asking for one to have a longer cooldown than 10 seconds for both sides.

I dont see how asking a simple question is complaining. All ive said is that i think both TE and fetch should have longer cooldowns due to chaindragging.


Do us a favor. Hit Page 1. Reread all the responses. You've been answered.

[Eisenhart]

Do us a favor. Hit Page 1. Reread all the responses. You've been answered.
All those answers require ranged people. Thats not a solution to the question im asking since im specifically asking for a melee way to counter it.

Its funny how many times ive asked the same question and none of you has given an actual solution. Some did try and thanks for that even tho it would just change who gets pulled.

[postaler]

All those answers require ranged people. Thats not a solution to the question im asking since im specifically asking for a melee way to counter it.


First of, If you are a MDPS standing in the back of your own line you surley deserves to get pulled, They are suppose to be in the thick of combat fighting at the ENEMY lines(My opinion on what the MDPS role is)
And NO maybe a MDPS on his own has no chance to stop fetch by himself, but(not trying to derail this topic or anything) neither does any squishy on his/hers own do against surviving a for ex WE exiting stealth behind them.



1.Lions have a cd after death.
2.You see them comming
3.They can get CCed before reaching their target.
4.They have low survivability
5.Not really that usefull besides Fetch(Loner tactic very popular amongst WL)

And stated above NO maybe a fetch cant be stoped by a MDPS on his own, But the the few points listed just from the top of my head more then makes up for it.

[Indasoth]

Well I am a level 40 WL with great gear and I don't think I get 1400' CtW's on even the squishiest of classes. So I'd say you're full of s hit.

I don't think you or your gear is as good as you think it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM8v0tKTeH4&fmt=18

See around :34. A near 2,000 CtW. According to your post, his white damage is better than your abilities.

Oh and hey look! He's got his lion out too! I'm sure Pack synergy is helping those crits, but the arguments about lions doing 25% of their master's damage is going a little overboard here.

[Indasoth]

Do us a favor. Hit Page 1. Reread all the responses. You've been answered.

Way to avoid the question dude.

[deadrook]

Man, I'm getting royally fed up with this.
Anything that Order seems to have that might be a slight advantage just gets whined at forever by the kids until Mythic eventually caves in.
Fetch will be next, a skill which has little to no utility in the main ORvR part of the game.

We've had IB grudge nerfed.
We've had BWs nerfed to pieces.
We had OYG nerfed within 2 weeks due to incessant whining.
Now they announce in herald the bubble nerf is intended thus confirming the relegation of the SM to 'even more paper tank' (ye we are already considered a joke class by many people, thanks for making it even worse).

On the flip side, baneshield, ridiculous WE damage and procs ignoring mitigation, aoe disorients, aoe disables, just goes marching on unaddressed.

Tell ya what, just make Order classes have to wear clown outfits and do a bending over animation in combat. We are already zerged to oblivion on most servers. Drive the final nails in so we all reroll or quit and leave your favoured customer base with a PvE game eh ?


perfect. this is the reason why the game will not succeed. The devs made Destro, Cooler, faster,stronger., and better polished armor and order get stale old and unfinished . If you want to win or have fun Destro is the best. The game will fail at this rate.

[Indasoth]

perfect. this is the reason why the game will not succeed. The devs made Destro, Cooler, faster,stronger., and better polished armor and order get stale old and unfinished . If you want to win or have fun Destro is the best. The game will fail at this rate.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. If you aren't...oh boy.

[Strexx]

Man, I'm getting royally fed up with this.
Anything that Order seems to have that might be a slight advantage just gets whined at forever by the kids until Mythic eventually caves in.
Fetch will be next, a skill which has little to no utility in the main ORvR part of the game.

We've had IB grudge nerfed.
We've had BWs nerfed to pieces.
We had OYG nerfed within 2 weeks due to incessant whining.
Now they announce in herald the bubble nerf is intended thus confirming the relegation of the SM to 'even more paper tank' (ye we are already considered a joke class by many people, thanks for making it even worse).

On the flip side, baneshield, ridiculous WE damage and procs ignoring mitigation, aoe disorients, aoe disables, just goes marching on unaddressed.

Tell ya what, just make Order classes have to wear clown outfits and do a bending over animation in combat. We are already zerged to oblivion on most servers. Drive the final nails in so we all reroll or quit and leave your favoured customer base with a PvE game eh ?


Mythic behaves very odd indeed, it seems as if they are trying to drive off order players. I know this is absurd, but one reviews the actions of Mythic it is hard to come to any other conclusion.
I second the emotion on SMs they should simply scrap the class at this point.

[Eisenhart]

First of, If you are a MDPS standing in the back of your own line you surley deserves to get pulled, They are suppose to be in the thick of combat fighting at the ENEMY lines(My opinion on what the MDPS role is)
I didnt say that melee should stay in the back. Dont know how you got that out of my post?
Lions are most deadly for melee standing at the front since we stand in front of the ranged people thus giving them less range to kill the lion before it reaches the front melee range. But thats just a sidenote ^^

And NO maybe a MDPS on his own has no chance to stop fetch by himself, but(not trying to derail this topic or anything) neither does any squishy on his/hers own do against surviving a for ex WE exiting stealth behind them.
We agree then, you want to stand a chance against WE, i can understand that, just like i want to stand a chance against a lion, you should understand that.

1.Lions have a cd after death.
2.You see them comming
3.They can get CCed before reaching their target.
4.They have low survivability
5.Not really that usefull besides Fetch(Loner tactic very popular amongst WL)
1. Yes, but so does ressing a marauder since he is risking his life rather than a resummonable pet.
2. True, but they do move at double speed so you must deal with it or die. A marauder you can run out of range of since he has to stand still for 2 seconds to cast.
3. This is possible with ranged CC. (Melee doesnt get that which is one of my points)
4. True, but that only has an effect for ranged people, not melee since we cant do instantly 2k damage before fetched.
5. I never said that WL was a perfect class. Im sure they might need adjusting for more usefulness in PvP on other aspects.


And stated above NO maybe a fetch cant be stoped by a MDPS on his own, But the the few points listed just from the top of my head more then makes up for it.
Does that mean we can make a list of ways to counter a WE and say they make up for the WE killing people on 5 seconds and you guys should just learn to quickly react in those 5 seconds?
You guys say destru ranged DPS should kill the lions and they fail at protecting their comrades. Turning this logic around you might as well say its order healers should save their instant heals for when WE jumps a clothy, and theyre failing at protecting their comrades.

Im not justifying WE, im just turning the logic around. In situations where 1 part stands no chance, the game stops being fun.

But thanks, youre at least the first person trying to have a decent conversation in the last many posts. :)

[Billrizer]

So clueless or ignoring the truth.

The skill Fetch itself is fine. The cooldown is not. Chain pulling the same dude every 10 seconds is by far a blatant "what not to design in a video game" type issue here. I really do not think anyone on here is this stupid, so I think everyone gets it. I am sure someone on here will come up with some Destro skill, that they claim will be as bad or worse then Fetch, and will use it as a reason why Fetch should stay the way it is. Or I'll just be told how terrible and weak the White Lion class is or be told if it was not for Fetch the pet would be worthless. Did I miss anything?

Order sucks? Where is this? So making Fetch a less game breaking skill will... somehow break Order? I think I might play an Order class to test this BS "Order are worse then Destro" theory. I really had no idea how crucial the skill Fetch was to the stability of the entire Order force!

I think the Mythic developers will tweak this skill, at least make the cooldown higher. Fetch is way too abused with a 10 second cooldown. I am sure if I was a White Lion at 40 fetching people I would just love it though that is for sure.

[postaler]

"I didnt say that melee should stay in the back. Dont know how you got that out of my post?
Lions are most deadly for melee standing at the front since we stand in front of the ranged people thus giving them less range to kill the lion before it reaches the front melee range. But thats just a sidenote ^^"

It wasnt my intention to imply that you said that sorry,
However a MDPS should probably go for soft targets first casters/healers, and they most of the time stand at the very rear of the "line" most common setup on the battlefield in my experience is, rdps,casters, healers at the back.
And hell whenever i play my mara for example i allways tries to break through to the very back and cause som panic.

Good,smart healers notice me trying to do so and focus healing on me, same could happen to a MDPS during fetchin(ive sucessfully heald Marauders tanks when they get fetched to the backline) and thus sometimes fetch actually "backfires"


"We agree then, you want to stand a chance against WE, i can understand that, just like i want to stand a chance against a lion, you should understand that."

I can take my zealot or RP getting oblitirated by WE/WH if they get the jump on me when im alone without backup.
I also can take getting fetched into enemylines if i dont have backup that kills the lion before it reaches me(altho a big furry lion is much easier to spot then a stealthed WE/WH ;)


"1. Yes, but so does ressing a marauder since he is risking his life rather than a resummonable pet.
2. True, but they do move at double speed so you must deal with it or die. A marauder you can run out of range of since he has to stand still for 2 seconds to cast.
3. This is possible with ranged CC. (Melee doesnt get that which is one of my points)
4. True, but that only has an effect for ranged people, not melee since we cant do instantly 2k damage before fetched.
5. I never said that WL was a perfect class. Im sure they might need adjusting for more usefulness in PvP on other aspects."

See both have their own weaknesses.

But i would like to add that the TE graphics is much harder to spot in a fight with lots of spells flying around then the Lion, infact its really hard not to miss the lion(for me anyway)



"Does that mean we can make a list of ways to counter a WE and say they make up for the WE killing people on 5 seconds and you guys should just learn to quickly react in those 5 seconds?
You guys say destru ranged DPS should kill the lions and they fail at protecting their comrades. Turning this logic around you might as well say its order healers should save their instant heals for when WE jumps a clothy, and theyre failing at protecting their comrades."

No we should not do that since this is a thread about WL fetch and to some extent the marauders Terrible embrace.

"Im not justifying WE, im just turning the logic around. In situations where 1 part stands no chance, the game stops being fun."

And i can turn it around a second time but that would not prove or better anything in this discussion.

"But thanks, youre at least the first person trying to have a decent conversation in the last many posts. :)"

And the same to you :)

All in all since i mostly play Destruction my experience with fetch is that i think in whole the spell is in no way OP or in need of nerfing, more tweaking maybe a CD on say 20-25sec would be nice but then only after a completed pull(might be hard to code).

Oh god my quoting sucks im not good with this forum stuff :/

[Gorhauth]

Keep complaining Destro. Keep feedbacking every single ability that doesn't grant you an "I win". You'll be left with a game no more entertaining then Pong.
Depending on the class make up, I already feel like I'm playing Pong, except as the part of the ball.

[Darkpheonix]

Actually there is in many ways an issue with the z-axis just like the maurader has with TE. The one difference though is Line of Sight that is required in order to pull off a fetch. There are actually two mandatory line of sights that a white lion must have in order to pull off a fetch. He must be able to have line of sight on his lion, and he must also at the same time have line of sight on the person hes trying to grab. This can be incredibly annoying when the lion decides to run behind that tree stump to attack a target you can see.

As to melee getting pulled it tends not to be the melee that is the target of this move. The ranged dps and the healers are the primary target most of the time because they are the hardest to get to and can make the biggest difference. Grab one out of 3 healers and manage to kill him thats less healing they can put out. Grab a sorc thats alot less damage especially when there are suck in magus running about. Grab a magus thats less chance your entire team will get sucked in. Melee does at times get grabbed but usually its a WE whose getting yanked off a team mate, a maurader whose standing back trying to pull with TE, or the tank who taunted the lion.

Also in order to actually pick up the extra health and the speed boost a Lion must burn two tactic slots. This can cause them to be extremely limited in other situations another thing a maurader doesnt have to worry about.

As to the completed pull I don't think it would be as bad since that is currently how the immunity gets applied. There isn't an immunity granted until the player actually touches the ground.

Damn lion is bigger then a dwarf in this game if you can't spot it your blind tbh. That is exactly the thing is the smart teams they see the lion coming in then a tank taunts it and range hits it one spell from each is plenty to kill it as it stands.

In the end it comes down to this. No WL is going to complain about a change IF the lion itself is fixed: ie made more survivable, made to not be taunted, and made to have a base run speed of a normal player.

For the witch elf give them 2k health and can be taunted and locked onto a tank for 3s and sure you can use the same statement.

Btw you also need to take into account on those crits the fact that he was using the flanking talent which will increase damage done but it is highly situational and requires that they have the correct position on the target. Not something thats going to be happening a great deal alot of the times.

[Eisenhart]

It wasnt my intention to imply that you said that sorry,
However a MDPS should probably go for soft targets first casters/healers, and they most of the time stand at the very rear of the "line" most common setup on the battlefield in my experience is, rdps,casters, healers at the back.
And hell whenever i play my mara for example i allways tries to break through to the very back and cause som panic.
I do agree that charging is the best option rather than a standoff. Too bad there arent more people thinking like us. Have a button to spam "charge" and sometimes it works othertimes i end up solo charging x)

Good,smart healers notice me trying to do so and focus healing on me, same could happen to a MDPS during fetchin(ive sucessfully heald Marauders tanks when they get fetched to the backline) and thus sometimes fetch actually "backfires"
This is very dependable on how large the zergs are. If around 20 vs 20 its not that bad to get pulled since the assist train at the back isnt too many. But at 40 vs 40 theres just too many at the backlines to survive. But having a guildgroup does help alot.

I can take my zealot or RP getting oblitirated by WE/WH if they get the jump on me when im alone without backup.
I also can take getting fetched into enemylines if i dont have backup that kills the lion before it reaches me(altho a big furry lion is much easier to spot then a stealthed WE/WH ;)
I never said i cant take it, my point is that tanks has no way of defending themself against this. So on a 10 second cooldown with no defense against it, it does get old after being chaindragged 3-4 times in a row. There is just no escaping it with such a low cooldown.

See both have their own weaknesses.
I never said change fetch mechanics, all i suggested was an increase in CD so that 1 person cant get chaindragged and same goes for TE. Chaindragging is my problem, not that they can actually fetch or that i dont stand a chance. If i get dragged once i stand a chance to get out, with a 10 sec cooldown i will never be able to get out of the order zerg due to being chaindragged.

But i would like to add that the TE graphics is much harder to spot in a fight with lots of spells flying around then the Lion, infact its really hard not to miss the lion(for me anyway)
But lions are probably more annoying. The zergs on my server has tons of dead lions and despite that, there is still 3-4 lions fetching all the times.

No we should not do that since this is a thread about WL fetch and to some extent the marauders Terrible embrace.

And i can turn it around a second time but that would not prove or better anything in this discussion.
Im not trying to change the subject. Im just saying you cant defend one problem by saying there is another problem. Unlike maths then multiplying negatives doesn't give positives in MMO ;)
Fix it, if it needs fixing.

All in all since i mostly play Destruction my experience with fetch is that i think in whole the spell is in no way OP or in need of nerfing, more tweaking maybe a CD on say 20-25sec would be nice but then only after a completed pull(might be hard to code).
Thats exactly my point. I know both drags has weaknesses so im not asking for changes in how they work. Its the chaindragging that gets annoying and old.

[gorefist]

it seems some of you cant answer Eisenhart question with out going off topic or not even really trying answer it in a way i would count usefull..

as i said it should have a shorter range maybe a littie bit more than marauder.. say 70ft range since like marauders there a MDPS CLASS the should be in the thick of the fight not hanging back cain pulling every 10 seconds..

and like i said be for.. increase the cool down on both to 20 seconds..

EDIT: it all so seems a lot of order players about destro classes out doing there mirror classes so here is a list below of some of the classes and the diffrances

Tanks

Ironbreaker/Swordmaster
at the moment it seems both these tanks out do any thing destro can muster rvr wise.. sword master doing sprit damage since when dose any tank stack sprit restance.. so far the better dps tank in game at the moment.. all so i dont think i need to say more when ironbreakers are the best defence tanks out of all the tank classes at the moment..

if your still gunna cry then most of you need to start playing your class better and stop crying when some one says hold up this needs tweaking a bit since this is supposed to be a contructive thread

-gorefist

[Eisenhart]

~ Edited for Content ~
If you want people to read what you say or actually take your posting serious, you should consider posting in a more friendly tone and with constructive ideas.

as i said it should have a shorter range maybe a littie bit more than marauder.. say 70ft range since like marauders there a MDPS CLASS the should be in the thick of the fight not hanging back cain pulling every 10 seconds..

and like i said be for.. increase the cool down on both to 20 seconds..
While i do see the point that a short range class shouldnt have the longest range ability in the game, then youd need to change the ability entirely to make advantages make up for the disadvantages.
The increase in cooldown will however be the first step in the right direction.

[postaler]

it seems some of you cant answer Eisenhart question with out going off topic or not even really trying answer it in a way i would count usefull..

as i said it should have a shorter range maybe a littie bit more than marauder.. say 70ft range since like marauders there a MDPS CLASS the should be in the thick of the fight not hanging back cain pulling every 10 seconds..

and like i said be for.. increase the cool down on both to 20 seconds..

EDIT: it all so seems a lot of order players about destro classes out doing there mirror classes so here is a list below of some of the classes and the diffrances

Tanks

Ironbreaker/Swordmaster
at the moment it seems both these tanks out do any thing destro can muster rvr wise.. sword master doing sprit damage since when dose any tank stack sprit restance.. so far the better dps tank in game at the moment.. all so i dont think i need to say more when ironbreakers are the best defence tanks out of all the tank classes at the moment..

if your still gunna cry then most of you need to start playing your class better and stop crying when some one says hold up this needs tweaking a bit since this is supposed to be a contructive thread

-gorefist

The range is fine on it you hafto remember that TE is 2sec cast and the lion have traveltime to get to its target and meanwhile its open for attacks/cc and it has less health also more visible

CD however i can agree on.

[Darkpheonix]

The increase in cooldown will however be the first step in the right direction.

Like I said change the actual lion and you wont find WL complaining about that.

Though I would not bump it that high. That still is way to high for either TE or Fetch. An Additional 5s should give enough time for a player to make it back to a reasonable location. Perhaps 12s or 13s for the TE since it is shorter, but first fix the lion or at least at the same time.

[Vertinox]

All pets need LOS check and collision detection fixes.

I think that is the key problem here.

[Eisenhart]

Like I said change the actual lion and you wont find WL complaining about that.

Though I would not bump it that high. That still is way to high for either TE or Fetch. An Additional 5s should give enough time for a player to make it back to a reasonable location. Perhaps 12s or 13s for the TE since it is shorter, but first fix the lion or at least at the same time.
What exactly is wrong with the lion? The movement AI?

The problem i see with both fetch and TE is that theyre currently spam abilities. You dont care who you pull as long as you pull someone. If you pull the wrong person then its no big deal. Youll get the real one 10 sec after.

I never said that WL didnt need fixing or should be limited to the role of backline dragger which i think is bad that its even possible. My point has been that chaindragging ruins the fun for both sides. Im sure WL would like to be useful as more than just a dragger. With 10 sec cooldown its limited how much else the WL can focus on other than dragging. If fetch and TE were 30 second abilities then youd have time to get other abilities done and morales used before the next drag.

[Arrelaine]

I wouldn't mind seeing a cooldown on Fetch!/TE, chain dragging is the pits no matter what side you're on. I also wouldn't mind seeing less disables/knockdowns/knockbacks, it's silly you can be chained anything.

[RealBigKitty]

But you want the Lion untauntable? That seems absolutely out of sorts. Now it seems like you're asking for it to be faster, stronger (great idea! it's your pet, I get that) AND immune to taunts? Should it also be able to leap over all CC and the tanks/mDPS? Oh wait, there's Pounce...

I think what's been lost is the OP has asked questions, and gotten a lot of "quit whining" in response. What I read from his post is actually less of a Fetch rant as opposed to a request to modify it so that folks might be less inclined to spam it. Even someone from Order addressed that it is abusable (is that a word???) this way.It IS a valid tactic, and yes, I agree teams should see it coming and can address it. The OP agrees, and also asked how an mDPS that is probably paying attention to DEALING mDPS, can react to the ability BEFORE he is suddenly and violently wrenched into an enemy mob scene. It is a good question. And the answer may be "melee can't do squat." Then say so and quit whining about the whining.

It is entertaining to me that a lot of the issues around WL abilities (particularly in regard to Fetch from Destro squishies) sound remarkably like the complaints Order casters have about WE's... "But we have no chance..." "But your teammates should save you!") :) And before this turns into a WE damage output issue, it was a poignant parallel after reading the above posts regarding WL damage output...

If you don't believe me, go read the post about "most feared class by Destro", and WL pops up the most.

[Eisenhart]

It is entertaining to me that a lot of the issues around WL abilities (particularly in regard to Fetch from Destro squishies) sound remarkably like the complaints Order casters have about WE's... "But we have no chance..." "But your teammates should save you!") :) And before this turns into a WE damage output issue, it was a poignant parallel after reading the above posts regarding WL damage output...
Hehe, already made the parallel in this thread. ;)
The logic is the same and maybe both issues should just be fixed since standing no chance is no fun.

[Darkpheonix]

Obviously nothings wrong when he can be killed just by being touched by any damage, can be taunted anywhere anyone pleases, oh and can be freely kited unless we really want to take the time and sacrifice a tactic slot. The lion right now is crap between the AI, the health, the run speed or you completely give up two tactic slots which doesnt make the lion that much more survivable. You dont need that many to even focus fire two sorcs hes down in under a second. Lets just nerf order to hell thats a winning formula.

Might as well straight out remove the lion unless the lion itself does in fact get buffed. Otherwise its has limited utility. 99.9% of the time when you have the lion on a melee in those large scale skirmishes it dies within a second due to general aoe.

Also if a witch hunter is as effective as Destro says they are in their current state then the WE would do just fine having their damage balanced down to the WHs since they had their survivability nerfed into being the same as a WEs in these situations.

[Vermess]

Eisenhart, first off I'd just like to say you deserve a huge amount of respect for staying constructive throughout and trying to have a proper discussion on the subject, despite some of the posts this threat has received.

Now as for your question, can melee stop a lion? If the lion is going for you there is nothing you can do other than trying to run in the opposite direct in the hope that either a RDPS kills it or you get out of range before it gets to you. Actually as a MDPS if you see a lion going for a healer (or anyone else) you're actually better off not trying to help. Reason being that if it looks like the lion will die before getting to the target any WL with half a brain will just change target to you seeing as how you're in range. So, ironically, by not helping you actually make it less likely someone will get pulled. The only melee that can do something is a tank, via taunt, and only as long as the lion is far enough away from the tank when he uses taunt that a RDPS can kill it before it gets to the tank so that the tank doesn't get pulled instead. But even then, the tank will only be able to do this a few times before the WL's start trying to fetch him instead. And to be honest, even when I'm on my healer, the WL's that fetch the healers first don't scare me half as much as the ones that go for the tanks first.

Now personally I like both fetch and TM as abilities but I do agree the CD of both and fetches range are out of whack. Yes both abilities can be countered but once you get 3-4 WL's all fetching, RvR quickly turns into a game of whack-a-lion, due mostly to the CD and the fact that WL's can spam it without fear for themselves. Personally I'd prefer to see the CD for both abilities increased to 30s (at the very least). As for range keep TM at 65 but drop fetch to 80. Which I know it will put WL's in danger, but then that's the whole point. For an ability as powerful as fetch it needs to have some trade off, some downside, and losing the lion for 15s just doesn't cut it. Then after than Mythic can look into buffing the rest of the class as it badly needs some help.

So WL's what do you say, will you be brave and give up your crutch? You'll be much better off for it.

[Dizkzak]

Fetch and TE are about the most cheesy aspects of WaR pvp. Total cheese. Does Fetch make pvp better? NO

Mythic should never have put total crap mechanics like fetch into a "pvp" game. Mythic=Amateur Hour

[Bacardio]

Youre not answering the question. How can a melee class stop fetch? Im not asking how a team stops fetch.
As far as i know, the only way for a melee class to stop fetch is to run out of the WL masters line of sight. Melee classes doesnt get the luxury of killing the pet before being fetched.


How can a melee class stop Terrible Embrace? Oh ya. :cool:

[thylantyr]

Reduce Fetch range

or


eliminate fetching/magnet etal entirely from the game.

Then you can work on getting rid of knockback and knockdowns
which is lame.

Just keep the game simple.

Roots ok
Snares ok
Stun ok

But not long duration.

... no mezz like DAOC

Let the people play their class and allow free better mobility
in the game.

The 5 sec. root immunity timer added in recent patch (does it work?) can also be applied to snare and stuns.

Suppose to be Warhammer no CCHammer.

[Rimarlk]

Please nerf fetch. In fact, take those abilities out and give WL's/Marauder's something completely different. But make the WL trees viable for RvR. There is only 1 viable RvR spec and it goes completely against the nature of the class.

I shelved my 35 WL because she was just so boring to play. The only way I did any real damage is if I specc'ed Axeman. Hunter did lol damage and Guardian relies on the pet that gets 2-shotted by a healer(exaggeration but it still gets owned in about 2 seconds) and does about 50-75% less damage than the axeman spec.

[Zzulu]

I don't think you or your gear is as good as you think it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM8v0tKTeH4&fmt=18

See around :34. A near 2,000 CtW. According to your post, his white damage is better than your abilities.

Oh and hey look! He's got his lion out too! I'm sure Pack synergy is helping those crits, but the arguments about lions doing 25% of their master's damage is going a little overboard here.

Once again you show that you're a clueless troll. Those are CRITS, and they get so big because of a TACTIC that also requires the pet to be out. So the WL only gets those numbers if

a) he wastes a tactic slot

b) he uses a lion

c) the lion is alive

d) he crits

By using pack synergy the WL gives up a lot of sustained damage from other tactics, and as such he is sacrificing something to get better but more unreliable burst damage. But you don't see what he's giving up just to get to do big numbers 20% of the time. You act as if every WL out there goes around hitting people for 2000 as if it's normal.

[Ceelarini]

how a mdps can stop a lion? on the other hand why would a mdps stop a lion?

a mdps can stop a lion with all their disable/snare/root and err damage ability..

if it s a group fight you should logically be grouped with ranged career and thus it s not your really mdps job to eliminate incoming lion.

if it s a 1vs1 why wouldnt you be fetched as a mdps?? both destro mdps have disable ability that WL doesnt and can be use right after being fetched, after all mdps are more efficient at close quarter and fetch provide a faster to reach this range..

btw as far as i m concerned WAR is game based on teamplay: scissor cant beat rock which cant beat paper and so on.

[CrazedPyro]

Reduce Fetch range

or


eliminate fetching/magnet etal entirely from the game.

Then you can work on getting rid of knockback and knockdowns
which is lame.

Just keep the game simple.

Roots ok
Snares ok
Stun ok

But not long duration.

... no mezz like DAOC

Let the people play their class and allow free better mobility
in the game.

The 5 sec. root immunity timer added in recent patch (does it work?) can also be applied to snare and stuns.

Suppose to be Warhammer no CCHammer.

if they removed fetch/TE i would /delete my marauder.

[Darkpheonix]

Eisenhart, first off I'd just like to say you deserve a huge amount of respect for staying constructive throughout and trying to have a proper discussion on the subject, despite some of the posts this threat has received.

Now as for your question, can melee stop a lion? If the lion is going for you there is nothing you can do other than trying to run in the opposite direct in the hope that either a RDPS kills it or you get out of range before it gets to you. Actually as a MDPS if you see a lion going for a healer (or anyone else) you're actually better off not trying to help. Reason being that if it looks like the lion will die before getting to the target any WL with half a brain will just change target to you seeing as how you're in range. So, ironically, by not helping you actually make it less likely someone will get pulled. The only melee that can do something is a tank, via taunt, and only as long as the lion is far enough away from the tank when he uses taunt that a RDPS can kill it before it gets to the tank so that the tank doesn't get pulled instead. But even then, the tank will only be able to do this a few times before the WL's start trying to fetch him instead. And to be honest, even when I'm on my healer, the WL's that fetch the healers first don't scare me half as much as the ones that go for the tanks first.

Now personally I like both fetch and TM as abilities but I do agree the CD of both and fetches range are out of whack. Yes both abilities can be countered but once you get 3-4 WL's all fetching, RvR quickly turns into a game of whack-a-lion, due mostly to the CD and the fact that WL's can spam it without fear for themselves. Personally I'd prefer to see the CD for both abilities increased to 30s (at the very least). As for range keep TM at 65 but drop fetch to 80. Which I know it will put WL's in danger, but then that's the whole point. For an ability as powerful as fetch it needs to have some trade off, some downside, and losing the lion for 15s just doesn't cut it. Then after than Mythic can look into buffing the rest of the class as it badly needs some help.

So WL's what do you say, will you be brave and give up your crutch? You'll be much better off for it.

Thing is the way people lay this out that A) no the lion can catch anyone they are faster then them, and B) they have much more health then you are telling us are both relying on the WL giving up something. In order to get both of those 2 tactic slots must be sacrificed for one move. Which even then with anyone half paying attention is going to fail. Without those two tactics used the lion is even easier to kill and even easier to kite to the point were it will never catch anyone unless they are completely unconcious of this big lion running into the pack of destro by iteself.

[Fireline]

I only think that Fetch needs a minimum distance, lets says, u can only fetch from 30-150ft?

this would make the abuses from WL fighting in melee range much less, I get fetched while fighting the WL who fetched me, this is stupid and disables a class without any kind of immunity

[Teviko]

The problem I see here isn't the fetch in itself, its in the deployment of fetch.

You have to have a pet run out, tag you, and then "Fetch" your surrounded by 6-12 Order who hungrily sink teeth into you correct?

Here's the *only* issue I see with it.

WL finds a nice cozy *safe* place to camp. Summons pet, sends pet out through the Keep Door, fetches a healer and now, Destro is down one healer, who has to respawn versus being rezzed. But, even if healer could get rezzed, WL is doing it to yet another healer.

If a tank taunts the Lion, and lion charges in and attacks the tank, assuming the WL isn't paying attention and corrects the lions movements, then said Tank gets to face off then? And since the WL is sitting back just enjoying the 1, 2 combo of pet attack and fetch, then, if he notices it going after tank, would he not, then correct the pet, and resend it on the healer?

And now, said tanks Taunt is down for 15 secs and you lost a healer, again. . .

Maybe, to *nerf* fetch, you make the pet uncommandable if induced on a taunt??

Sure that would leave a tank high and dry, but tanks are sturdy and *might* get back in range of healers.

[Darkpheonix]

See the thing is when the tank taunts the lion it actually locks the lion onto the tank for the full duration of the taunt. You can't just willy nilly change it back to its old target and hey you can grab them again. You litterally have to wait for the taunt to break before you can do that. Plenty of time to handle the lion.

Also there is the possibility that the tank could be fetched if it gets that close but at the same time the WL has to determine which tank was the one that taunted in order to retarget and fetch that tank. That is not exactly easy in ORVR with these big groups that have a huge pack of tanks sitting there, scenarios it is easier but the tank also is much much more likely to survive in those.

[Teviko]

See the thing is when the tank taunts the lion it actually locks the lion onto the tank for the full duration of the taunt. You can't just willy nilly change it back to its old target and hey you can grab them again. You litterally have to wait for the taunt to break before you can do that. Plenty of time to handle the lion.

Also there is the possibility that the tank could be fetched if it gets that close but at the same time the WL has to determine which tank was the one that taunted in order to retarget and fetch that tank. That is not exactly easy in ORVR with these big groups that have a huge pack of tanks sitting there, scenarios it is easier but the tank also is much much more likely to survive in those.

Here is another thing about taunt, that was my mistake and failed to mention:

Once your target has hit you 3x, then taunt is done for. How quick is that on your lion? Pretty dam fast. If you just made taunt last for 15 secs on a Lion, would be probably be less an issue.

But thank you, I didnt know that Lions did indeed get locked onto the tank who taunted

[Gishem]

it seems some of you cant answer Eisenhart question with out going off topic or not even really trying answer it in a way i would count usefull..

as i said it should have a shorter range maybe a littie bit more than marauder.. say 70ft range since like marauders there a MDPS CLASS the should be in the thick of the fight not hanging back cain pulling every 10 seconds..

and like i said be for.. increase the cool down on both to 20 seconds..

EDIT: it all so seems a lot of order players about destro classes out doing there mirror classes so here is a list below of some of the classes and the diffrances

Tanks

Ironbreaker/Swordmaster
at the moment it seems both these tanks out do any thing destro can muster rvr wise.. sword master doing sprit damage since when dose any tank stack sprit restance.. so far the better dps tank in game at the moment.. all so i dont think i need to say more when ironbreakers are the best defence tanks out of all the tank classes at the moment..

if your still gunna cry then most of you need to start playing your class better and stop crying when some one says hold up this needs tweaking a bit since this is supposed to be a contructive thread

-gorefist

Why even mention tanks? all it does is further derail this thread from its original point.

Fetch range at 100 feet, marauder range stays the same. Both have a cooldown increase to 30 seconds, Lions get higher HP and toughness.

To the above, you can't pull people from inside a keep, iv asked numerous WLs on my server if its possible all they all tell me no, it never has worked.

[Eisenhart]

How can a melee class stop Terrible Embrace? Oh ya. :cool:
Aronmoth didnt say that, he did a bad quote of me which makes it looks like his statement.
But to answer your question, TE has 2 seconds cast time where much more CC can interrupt him than the lion. Im ofc talking about silence and stun. Ive heard that taunts can also interrupt a spellcast but i havent tested it.

On top of that, 65ft vs 150ft. With these ranges youre almost certain that the marauder will do his spell from 55-65ft which means youre near the edge of his spell range and mostly can just run out of it even on 2 seconds. If possible you can also break LoS with a tree or rock or house or whatever there might be near.
So melee has lots of ways to stop TE.

The difference is that TE is a spell cast and all counters for spells is valid. The lion is instant drag once it reaches you. Tanks cant stop the lion before it reaches the melee classes and thus dragged.

how a mdps can stop a lion? on the other hand why would a mdps stop a lion?

a mdps can stop a lion with all their disable/snare/root and err damage ability..
All melee CC is funny enough, melee range, so that wont stop the lion ;)

if it s a group fight you should logically be grouped with ranged career and thus it s not your really mdps job to eliminate incoming lion.
That is the point im trying to make. The reason why its not a melee job is because we cant do it.

My suggestion stays the same tho, give it a longer cooldown so that WL can do other stuff while waiting for the CD. With 10 sec cooldown the class is basicly chaindrag and cant focus on helping its team in other ways because after the dragkill, the ability is ready again.

Why even mention tanks? all it does is further derail this thread from its original point.
Without speaking for Gore, then i think that hes tired of Order acting like victims because they've been hit by nerfs on some of their best classes. So some are using the victim role to say that theyre leaving the game or that theres a conspiracy from mythic and so on.
To be honest, id prefer that kind of talk stayed out of the constructive threads, because theres so few of them.

[Jinxed Fortune]

TE has 2 seconds cast time where much more CC can interrupt him than the lion. Im ofc talking about silence and stun. Ive heard that taunts can also interrupt a spellcast but i havent tested it.

The lion is not invincible. It can be stunned and/or killed. Also, it isn't invisible as it's running toward the fetch target, and it takes longer than two seconds for the lion to run to it's target (even with speed training). So, destro actually has more time to stop fetch. The trick is that they have to be paying attention to the big white kitty running at them.

On top of that, 65ft vs 150ft. With these ranges youre almost certain that the marauder will do his spell from 55-65ft which means youre near the edge of his spell range and mostly can just run out of it even on 2 seconds.

What keeps a destro player from running from the lion? You say that WLs are using fetch from extremely long range (140-150 feet maybe?). Why can't you run out of range of fetch then just kill the lion?:confused:

If possible you can also break LoS with a tree or rock or house or whatever there might be near.
So melee has lots of ways to stop TE.

Fetch requires LoS to work as well. So, destro players could just as easily run for cover.;)

[Ceelarini]

Aronmoth didnt say that, he did a bad quote of me which makes it looks like his statement.
But to answer your question, TE has 2 seconds cast time where much more CC can interrupt him than the lion. Im ofc talking about silence and stun. Ive heard that taunts can also interrupt a spellcast but i havent tested it.

On top of that, 65ft vs 150ft. With these ranges youre almost certain that the marauder will do his spell from 55-65ft which means youre near the edge of his spell range and mostly can just run out of it even on 2 seconds. If possible you can also break LoS with a tree or rock or house or whatever there might be near.
So melee has lots of ways to stop TE.

The difference is that TE is a spell cast and all counters for spells is valid. The lion is instant drag once it reaches you. Tanks cant stop the lion before it reaches the melee classes and thus dragged.


All melee CC is funny enough, melee range, so that wont stop the lion ;)


That is the point im trying to make. The reason why its not a melee job is because we cant do it.

My suggestion stays the same tho, give it a longer cooldown so that WL can do other stuff while waiting for the CD. With 10 sec cooldown the class is basicly chaindrag and cant focus on helping its team in other ways because after the dragkill, the ability is ready again.


whether CC work or not is another question but i ve seen in numerous time my pet being disabled/kd, in addition it has to wait for the KB immunity timer if the will-be fetched has been KB recently. besides Mdps can still damage the lion. RDPS and especially sorc will kill the lion in no time.
so it s not a mdps job but mdps can still do it.

as for TE the marauder has also the option to take AOE kb and can get a AOE stun too..
as a WL we dont get anything like that which pretty limit our ability to engage at close quarter as we dont have any edge over destro, pounce is maybe great but not that useful against a zerg.

i wouldnt be against your suggestion and doing other thing but i find it hard given the number of time i get disable by marauder/WE at close range and i dont believe their disable is either a fair mechanism. it s even worse.

[Gardiig]

Terrible embrace is much easier to pull off therefore its effect is not as good (65ft range) whereas fetch is not as easy so has an increased effect to compensate (150ft).

However fetch has far more advantages than terrible embrace. One that order always overlook in defense of fetch is the fact the pet has to be targetted to be stopped. You cant ignore the pet and the time spent taunting, dpsing the pet is time not spent taunting, dpsing enemy players which in turn makes healing for order players much easier.

I personally think fetch is fine as it is but I would like to see terrible embrace range increased to 100ft so the marauder can actually survive to use the ability rather then get mowed down by orders ranged characters

[LeoricMonolith]

I think a fetch nerf would be fine, provided you give us a way to survive front line melee like a marauder has, maybe having more than one viable would be nice too right? I mean it's not like other classes can choose more than 1 specific mastery set if they hope to be effective right? I mean I know we have a ton of pve only tactics, but everyone does right? I mean we really need those threat tactics for lost vale or something...

Here's the deal, I'd be thoroughly pleased if they deleted the white lion class made an exact mirror of the marauder and called it good. They won't do that, so I think the best option is to get us as close as possible, nerf fetch give us the ability to not die faster than a bright wizard on the front lines, and I'll be pleased as pie to smash your collective faces in on the front lines. That's not possible at the moment, and that's why you see fetch being abused. Also either kill the pet or make it not suck.

[Christoph]

Cooldown? Agreed.

The use of a pet is getting to be a crutch for WLs. Slotting speed training and full grown will allow that lion to make it through most Order WBs to get to its intended target. And keep in mind that lag comes into play here as well. I've been Fetched when it looked like the lion was 20 yards away. It was right on top of me, but due to the craptastic (tm) lag on Mythic's servers, I was fetched while it looked like the lion was 20 yards away.

And for those that will inevitably say that you have to waste a tactic slot for Speed Training (Full grown gives the WL 80 STR, so it's still a benefit), you're not really doing much anyway besides Fetch, so that tactic slot won't be missed very much.

And, WL's don't have to deal with Z-axis issues as much as Marauders do.

That's the problem (regarding the highlighted/orange statement above), the WL's do NOT have to worry about being in range at all. They're outside of the range of all the casters and everyone. At 150 yards, they're in ZERO danger from being attacked. They're free to stand there and pull anyone they want.

Marauders, on the other hand have to be within 65 yards, in range of all casters, thus putting themselves (standing still for 2 full seconds) in front of a full line of Order.

Fetch and Terrible Embrace are not on par with each other. Fetch is SO MUCH stronger.

Check:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3192688&postcount=9

What I appreciate most about certain destro players is their honest and solid views on the game. It is not like they are prepared to claim anything, or that they contradict themselves by saying completely different things on different threads depending on the subject and the personal agendas they want to further. Yup, not like that at all. :rolleyes:

[Eisenhart]

The lion is not invincible. It can be stunned and/or killed. Also, it isn't invisible as it's running toward the fetch target, and it takes longer than two seconds for the lion to run to it's target (even with speed training). So, destro actually has more time to stop fetch. The trick is that they have to be paying attention to the big white kitty running at them.
Im not saying the lion doesnt have its weaknesses, im just saying the only weakness when it comes to melee classes is LoS. If you go back to some of the other pages you will see me asking for ways to counter the lion as a melee.
If you bring up my teammates as a valid argument and say they fail, isnt that exactly the same argument that comes up with WE and casters? My point is that, in situations where you cant defend yourself, the fun goes away and need fixing.
That goes both ways ofc.

What keeps a destro player from running from the lion? You say that WLs are using fetch from extremely long range (140-150 feet maybe?). Why can't you run out of range of fetch then just kill the lion?:confused:
The lions are very fast, so its not possible to run from them and get 150 ft distance. You have to remember that the WL master himself can also move and by that nullifying the movement of the melee class due to same speed.
My problem is not with the mechanics tho. I think 150 yard is fine and i think dragging helps with some diversity in zerg vs zerg fights. What i do mind is chaindragging and the fact that WL are turned into drag machines with no other viable role in PvP. I think most WL would like to be able to have more than just the role of a backline dragger.
By increasing the cooldown the WL gets more time to do other stuff between the drags and we solve the chaindragging. But that requires some WL adjustments to be useful between the drags if the CD increases.

Fetch requires LoS to work as well. So, destro players could just as easily run for cover.;)
I know that, i already stated that for melee classes, breaking LoS to the master is the only efficient way to prevent a dragging. If there are other ways id like to hear them.
I was just answering a question on how many ways a melee can actually prevent a drag from a marauder compared to melee ways of preventing a lion.


whether CC work or not is another question but i ve seen in numerous time my pet being disabled/kd, in addition it has to wait for the KB immunity timer if the will-be fetched has been KB recently.

besides Mdps can still damage the lion. RDPS and especially sorc will kill the lion in no time.
so it s not a mdps job but mdps can still do it.
I dont see how MDPS can kill the lion without getting fetched. Unless the MDPS is very fast with CC when the lion goes for another target so that the master cant fetch the melee person that is trying to kill the lion. But then you can argue wether its the MPDS that has a counter or if its the WL master that isnt reacting fast enough. A MDPS will never be able to CC a WL to DPS it without having some time interval before, where he is in danger of being fetched.

as for TE the marauder has also the option to take AOE kb and can get a AOE stun too..
as a WL we dont get anything like that which pretty limit our ability to engage at close quarter as we dont have any edge over destro, pounce is maybe great but not that useful against a zerg.
I never said that there wasnt a problem with other classes. I mean, as a BO i would love to have the IB AoE far knockback with a lovely snare to top it off. But all i get is a frontal cone KB which is half the range of the IB KB. But that doesnt mean that i will use it as an argument to not adjust BO abilities if there is a need for adjustments ;)

i wouldnt be against your suggestion and doing other thing but i find it hard given the number of time i get disable by marauder/WE at close range and i dont believe their disable is either a fair mechanism. it s even worse.
The same goes for destruction. I get chain disabled and i find it just as annoying but until mythic adjust the amount of CC, it wont stop me from doing my intended job.

[Ceelarini]

Im not saying the lion doesnt have its weaknesses, im just saying the only weakness when it comes to melee classes is LoS. If you go back to some of the other pages you will see me asking for ways to counter the lion as a melee.
If you bring up my teammates as a valid argument and say they fail, isnt that exactly the same argument that comes up with WE and casters? My point is that, in situations where you cant defend yourself, the fun goes away and need fixing.
That goes both ways ofc.


the difference between a WE and a lion is that you can see the white lion coming from a certain distance which cant be said of the WE but that s another debate. In addition a Lion has 2k life and no resist. guess what 2 out of 3 destro RDPS hit with magical attack.

what are exactly those situation where you cant defend yourself?

overwhelming ganksquad?
wb filled with mdps that encounter a balanced career wb?

as for the targetting generally, i cant speak for the majority of the WL but it is fair to assume that they target the same class,I go for healers and casters first.

[Eisenhart]

the difference between a WE and a lion is that you can see the white lion coming from a certain distance which cant be said of the WE but that s another debate. In addition a Lion has 2k life and no resist. guess what 2 out of 3 destro RDPS hit with magical attack.
It doesnt matter if you can see the lion or not, as a melee the only thing which makes a difference is if the LoS can be broken or not.

Others have mentioned that with a reduction in range to maybe 100ft the lion could get more survivability. I think it sounds fair that with higher cooldown and a more survivability, making the fetch more reliable. Still keep in mind that TE should have same CD as fetch still.

what are exactly those situation where you cant defend yourself?
The situation is when no one else is helping, what can i do myself to stop it. The answer is break LoS and nothing else. I dont care what everyone else can do for me.
Situations where RDPS doesnt give a damn as long as theyre not being targeted, because then they just kill it. Destru melee people find themself in these situations every time there is a standoff.

as for the targetting generally, i cant speak for the majority of the WL but it is fair to assume that they target the same class,I go for healers and casters first.
Im not sure if thats a fair assumption. What should be targeted can be very dependant on the situation. If the lion is getting targeted, you just do a random fetch on anything near it, instead of trying to make it reach its target.
Ive seen WL that just pulls anything they can, they just want to get as many destru down to the meatgrinder they got at the back of their lines.

[gorefist]

I don't think you or your gear is as good as you think it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM8v0tKTeH4&fmt=18

See around :34. A near 2,000 CtW. According to your post, his white damage is better than your abilities.

Oh and hey look! He's got his lion out too! I'm sure Pack synergy is helping those crits, but the arguments about lions doing 25% of their master's damage is going a little overboard here.

Ok i just saw the vid i have this to say really thats how a white lion should be played. in the thick of the fight.. but over all the problem with Fetch is its 150ft range if they droped that to a 100ft/90ft range. 20-30 sceond cool down and give the whitelion a few more hit points i wouldnt mind so much.. since quite a few of us argee on this at the moment.. since there really a mdps class.. and should be in the thick of the fight like every other mdps class and still have the threat of being in danger.. not standing at the back cain pulling every 10 seconds

[Ceelarini]

It doesnt matter if you can see the lion or not, as a melee the only thing which makes a difference is if the LoS can be broken or not.

Others have mentioned that with a reduction in range to maybe 100ft the lion could get more survivability. I think it sounds fair that with higher cooldown and a more survivability, making the fetch more reliable. Still keep in mind that TE should have same CD as fetch still.


The situation is when no one else is helping, what can i do myself to stop it. The answer is break LoS and nothing else. I dont care what everyone else can do for me.
Situations where RDPS doesnt give a damn as long as theyre not being targeted, because then they just kill it. Destru melee people find themself in these situations every time there is a standoff.


Im not sure if thats a fair assumption. What should be targeted can be very dependant on the situation. If the lion is getting targeted, you just do a random fetch on anything near it, instead of trying to make it reach its target.
Ive seen WL that just pulls anything they can, they just want to get as many destru down to the meatgrinder they got at the back of their lines.

whether my last point is a fair assumption it s just objective and thus personnal to all.

and to come back to your point where none of your realm mates care i m afraid it s something that out of the pure mechanism of the game. The same can be said with the healers:
if you dont start by killing them first it s harder to kill the guys they are healing, should you nerf their healing abilities because you dont target the right guy?

it s a game based on teamplay and number rather than solo abilities.

In most cases 2vs1 will end up the same way.

[IceScykle]

if you cant avoid fetch you deserve to be fetched, its a punishment for your own incompetance

[Darkpheonix]

The lions are very fast, so its not possible to run from them and get 150 ft distance. You have to remember that the WL master himself can also move and by that nullifying the movement of the melee class due to same speed.


Again though in order for that speed to actually exist One tactic slot must be completely sacrificed in order to obtain it. With out the tactic being used the lion is actually slower then a normal players movement speed and is extremely easy to kite. The only other way to boost its movement speed is for 7s with charge which itself is then on a cooldown. So ya one might be caught up to but the second one after that there is no available movement speed increase. Not every single lion is slotting the lion movement speed increase tactic, infact out of all the lions on my server not one of them does. They actually slot loner because the lion just flat out doesnt live long enough in any meaningful fight. Destro basically just sneezes and the lion dies as it stands.

Also if the WL has to run forward to be able to pull off the fetch because the person they are trying to grab goes out of range. Well then that puts them right smack into the middle of the front lines and right then they are pulling them right back into the pack of destro/order melee.

[DreadMage]

Once again you show that you're a clueless troll. Those are CRITS, and they get so big because of a TACTIC that also requires the pet to be out. So the WL only gets those numbers if

a) he wastes a tactic slot

b) he uses a lion

c) the lion is alive

d) he crits

By using pack synergy the WL gives up a lot of sustained damage from other tactics, and as such he is sacrificing something to get better but more unreliable burst damage. But you don't see what he's giving up just to get to do big numbers 20% of the time. You act as if every WL out there goes around hitting people for 2000 as if it's normal.

I'm sorry, what?

a) I waste 4 tactic slots on my Marauder and I can't even reach the damage his Auto-attack crits for. How is using ONE tactic slot crippling?

b) A pet class using his pet? How is that a hinderance. Whole point of a pet class is to use the pet. Completely moot point.

c) Moot point. Resummon the lion if it dies. +50% damage on crits is too juicy to pass up.

d) His normal damage must be pathetic then right? +50% damage and he hits a 2k crit. Use some grade 2 math, how much would a non-crit be?

[Zzulu]

I'm sorry, what?

a) I waste 4 tactic slots on my Marauder and I can't even reach the damage his Auto-attack crits for. How is using ONE tactic slot crippling?

b) A pet class using his pet? How is that a hinderance. Whole point of a pet class is to use the pet. Completely moot point.

c) Moot point. Resummon the lion if it dies. +50% damage on crits is too juicy to pass up.

d) His normal damage must be pathetic then right? +50% damage and he hits a 2k crit. Use some grade 2 math, how much would a non-crit be?


Oh my. It sounds to me like you want to keep all the perks the Marauder has going for it right now, but ALSO get the tactics the WL gets? I mean, I'm not even sure what your complaint is here anymore? I'll give you both fetch and the +50% tactic if you give me your armor debuffs, healing debuffs, AOE knockdowns, AOE disorients, single target disorient and bloody awesome tactics in return.

As for non crits, you can see them right there, and they're not anything more than a marauder can achieve, it's just that a WL has very slow 2h axes that deal more white damage while the marauder dual wields. Do you understand the difference?

As for why wasting one tactic slot is so important for the WL is because the WL depends on the (very few) tactics to an incredible amount, perhaps more than any other class. If you had ever played one, you'd know this.

[Seldoran]

Joining in with the others saying it:

You can nerf Fetch as soon as Order gets the equivalent of the AoE CC that Destruction has, as well as having a far better WARdrobe. (Oh, the wit!)

At this rate, we might as well remove Order from the game, set it to NPC statuts and name this game Warhammer: We Like Destro.

[Jinxed Fortune]

I would love to not have to rely on fetch to break stand-offs, but really it is the only method a WL has of getting through the RDPS storm. Marauder's don't have to rely on TE to break stand-offs as they have actual CC.

Like any WL worth their salt, I would gladly trade fetch for:

1. Multi-target knockdown
2. AoE disorient (that stacks with other disorients)
3. Non-positional abilities
4. Lower AP cost abilities that do more damage
5. Self-healing abilities
6. Better healing debuff
7. Replace useless PvE tactics with double stat boosting tactics

Yes, Marauder's have all of this over WLs. Until we get equal access to all of these, and get our lion's AI and surivability buffed, destro really doesn't have any basis to complain about fetch.

Remember balance doesn't mean both sides are exactly the same. It means that both sides apply equal force. Right now, fetch gives us a little more force than we'd have otherwise, but we're still no where near being balanced with our mirror.

[Kriestov]

Ranged Snare, assist down the pet, problem solved. Or Taunt the pet.(Yes I know, the lions are fast, reflexes are a good thing.)

Like a previous posted stated before me, this isn't "Carebear Stare" online. If you allow the opposing Warband to pull in and kill your members one at a time, you're doing it wrong. The best way to save a person in that situation is have your healers heal the target (It's hard to miss, he's flying through the air.) while spamming the remove hex/curse (it'll take off heaps of DPS). Have a Black Ork follow him in and as soon as he lands, guard him, AE Knockback, and escort him back. Fetch is not being "Abused" there are counters too it, you just either aren't intelligent or fast enough when it comes to defeating it.

If you're fighting a typical "Two warbands stare each other down as the RDPS kills each other" then yes, some classes are going to seem more "Overpowered" then others. This problem doesn't come from some classes being overpowered, if comes from people not playing their classes correctly(or how the dev's intended), or to the extent that they should be played too. As I'm sure you know, this is an extremely group based game.

Explain how a melee class kills a lion without being fetched.


See:

As I'm sure you know, this is an extremely group based game.Classes aren't meant to be "Jacks-of-all-Trades" you're going to be dependent on other classes, and you're going to have to rely on your allies and their skills, or lack there of.

[Dameedna]

Sigh.

Using pets as the excuse of Fetch "being ok" is getting to be a crutch. Having a pet (as compared to TE not relying on a pet) is more than made up for with the range difference.

The problem is that if the Marauder (within 65 yards) is killed, he's dead. If the lion is killed, that affects the WL how? Oh wow, a 15 second respawn timer on the lion.

That is the main problem. There is no risk to the WL at all.

Increase the Lion timer to the same as squigs(30 secs) and increaser Fetch cooldown, and at least it has to be a bit more stratigically used, if there is going to be no risk or "downside" for the WL.

But, having said that, as people learn to target the Lion more, fetch will happen less.

My squig pets are immensly annoying to other players, and don't cause any risk to me, even though I can punt, knockback and disable via my pets.

Edited to say : Yes I know the 2 are not mirror classes.

[DreadMage]

Oh my. It sounds to me like you want to keep all the perks the Marauder has going for it right now, but ALSO get the tactics the WL gets? I mean, I'm not even sure what your complaint is here anymore? I'll give you both fetch and the +50% tactic if you give me your armor debuffs, healing debuffs, AOE knockdowns, AOE disorients, single target disorient and bloody awesome tactics in return.

As for non crits, you can see them right there, and they're not anything more than a marauder can achieve, it's just that a WL has very slow 2h axes that deal more white damage while the marauder dual wields. Do you understand the difference?

As for why wasting one tactic slot is so important for the WL is because the WL depends on the (very few) tactics to an incredible amount, perhaps more than any other class. If you had ever played one, you'd know this.

Yea, my perks are busted tactics and nerfed skills which caused 2 mastery lines to become useless. Gotta love key tactics/skills not working.

I don't want anything the WL gets, where did I mention anything of the sort? Try reading comprehension sometime.

The Marauder runs on super narrow specs. I need 4 tactic slots for a specific mastery-based spec. Crit Brut needs different tactics than caster-killer brut, and again diff tactics for general damage. I'd use 8 tactic slots if I could and still be short, so your point means nothing, I rely just as much on tactics.

What are our awesome tactics btw? The ones what are broken and do not even months after launch?

Also, the benefit of 2H is massive. The WL does more damage BECAUSE he has a 2H. His hits do not get mitigated twice. Thats a pro to the WL, not a con. Not sure what you were thinking there. Also, 2H deal more damage on abilities as well. Weapon DPS plays into effect on ability hits.

PS. DPS spec'd with STR stacking (1000~) with full buffs and popping both my 60s damage skills I landed a 1.1k crit on a R32 AM at R40. Thats about 60% of what the WL did. Thats the damage I can approach every 10s of 60s.

[Chuffed]

Increase the Lion timer to the same as squigs(30 secs) and increaser Fetch cooldown, and at least it has to be a bit more stratigically used, if there is going to be no risk or "downside" for the WL.

You do realise that SH have more than one pet? Just say the horned pet dies, you can just summon your normal squig, or spiked, or gas. The WL doesnt have that luxury, once their pet dies you have to wait those 15sec to resummon your only pet. That is why its 15sec, and not 30. There is also no risk involved for SH using pets and you can spam them far more effectively, the only difference is you dont have fetch.

To Eisenhart (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=81019): Why do you feel melee should have a counter to fetch? Not every class should be able to counter everything out there. To effectively counter alot of abilities you need a team, as no one class by itself can counter everything. Hence for fetch you need RDPS as that is its counter. By stating that melee not having a counter to Fetch is what makes it OP is faulty logic at best.

[Eisenhart]

Classes aren't meant to be "Jacks-of-all-Trades" you're going to be dependent on other classes, and you're going to have to rely on your allies and their skills, or lack there of.
You missed my point completely then. My point was to make clear that melee has no defense against fetch. Against stuff melee dont have any defense, 10 seconds cooldown is too low.

I never asked for anything to counter fetch, all i have ever said is put it on a longer cooldown and then allow WL to be able to help its team out in other ways while its on CD.

[Chuffed]

....all i have ever said is put it on a longer cooldown and then allow WL to be able to help its team out in other ways while its on CD.


Would the same then apply to Marauders or is it just WLs timer you want increased?
I am not trying to be condescending if thats the way it comes across, I am actually interested in knowing how you want it. For me if you change the one you would then have to change the other.

[Eisenhart]

Would the same then apply to Marauders or is it just WLs timer you want increased?
I am not trying to be condescending if thats the way it comes across, I am actually interested in knowing how you want it. For me if you change the one you would then have to change the other.
If you went back and looked at my previous posts in this thread, then i have always said TE and fetch should have the same cooldown. Increase both to stop chaindragging and allow both classes to do other stuff than drag.
With 10 seconds cooldown its limited what the 2 classes can help with in the few seconds between the next drag.

[LeoricMonolith]

Yea, my perks are busted tactics and nerfed skills which caused 2 mastery lines to become useless. Gotta love key tactics/skills not working.

I don't want anything the WL gets, where did I mention anything of the sort? Try reading comprehension sometime.

The Marauder runs on super narrow specs. I need 4 tactic slots for a specific mastery-based spec. Crit Brut needs different tactics than caster-killer brut, and again diff tactics for general damage. I'd use 8 tactic slots if I could and still be short, so your point means nothing, I rely just as much on tactics.

What are our awesome tactics btw? The ones what are broken and do not even months after launch?

Also, the benefit of 2H is massive. The WL does more damage BECAUSE he has a 2H. His hits do not get mitigated twice. Thats a pro to the WL, not a con. Not sure what you were thinking there. Also, 2H deal more damage on abilities as well. Weapon DPS plays into effect on ability hits.

PS. DPS spec'd with STR stacking (1000~) with full buffs and popping both my 60s damage skills I landed a 1.1k crit on a R32 AM at R40. Thats about 60% of what the WL did. Thats the damage I can approach every 10s of 60s.

You know that armor mitigates a percentage right? And that dps should even out because, although there are less opportunities to parry block a slow 2hander, each parry or block hurts even more? I can understand if you're complaining about your single target line, I think it should be on par with ours, but from every marauder I've talked to, they say that your debuff line is mostly fine, and that your aoe line is awesome. Our aoe line is a joke past pack hunting, and our pet line is good if you like to duel and never set foot in a group setting.

I appreciate that we're good at single target dps, single target dps doesn't help me much compared to aoe utility and aoe dps in orvr. Aoe disorients cause havoc, and destro has them on 3 front line classes (the marauder, the black orc, and the chosen.) I want to be a front line fighter too, but I'm not at the moment, I don't have the things you have to be good at causing trouble in my opponents back rank in massive fights. Your aoe tree has excellent active defense skills, with concussive jolt (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8423) and insane whispers (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8445) . In addition to that, you have about 50% more toughness than I have from one tactic hulking brute (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8444) (the tooltip on the link is bugged, it should read 160 toughness.) Combine that with ferocious assault (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8411) for the initial charge and you're one tough hombre. You also have energy ripple (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8456) which is one of the best morales for breaking a keep defense (you can build the morale for it on the door, and destroy the defense on a ramp with it.)

That's an absolutely great aoe tree. It synergizes well, it's effective, and it's well thought out. Your debuff tree might need some love, but it's certainly viable right? I think your single target definitely needs a buff, it seems a bit meh, and from what I understand guillotine (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8420) needs a fix.

Now, in scenarios and small-scale engagements the white lion does fine, but we fall apart in orvr. We become fetch bots, because we can't stand up on the front lines like a marauder. It's not that fun for us, I know it's not that fun for you either. I want to be viable on the front lines, but the fact of the matter is we aren't. I suggest that mythic nerf fetch, buff our aoe tree to put it on par with the marauders, rework our pet tree, give our pet a huge survivability buff (remember fetch is getting nerfed first), and buff the marauder single target line to be on par with the white lion single target line.

[Ceelarini]

You missed my point completely then. My point was to make clear that melee has no defense against fetch. Against stuff melee dont have any defense, 10 seconds cooldown is too low.


as I said before melee can use their CC, their damage abilities against a lion..they can also communicate with their buddies..."oh look a big white cat is coming to us..shall we pet him?"

there is nothing valid in your point

[Eisenhart]

as I said before melee can use their CC, their damage abilities against a lion..they can also communicate with their buddies..."oh look a big white cat is coming to us..shall we pet him?"

there is nothing valid in your point
A melee cant CC or damage the lion without being fetched. The only option is to break LoS as ive said many times before.

The communication isnt a valid argument. The white lion master can also communicate and he has direct control of the pet.

[Ceelarini]

as far as i m concerned when i ask my lion to attack a certain target and that a melee attack my lion my target does not change for the attacker so i cant fetch the attacker without having to click on him which can be quite complicated given the messy situation of the melee.

so yes a melee can perfectly CC or damage a lion without being fetched. why wouldnt it be possible?believe what you want but i suggest that you try to change your target for someone that is hidden in the zerg and see how easy it is to select them

btw what happen if two melees attack simultaneously the lion..
1) which melee is being fetched?
2) on what basis is the will-be fetched chosen?
3) with what mechanical is the melee targeted?

of course communication is a valid argument, a group is more efficient than another if it communicates in a more efficient manner and better organised. That s the source of success for a group.

yes WL can communicate too but to say what? "healer can you heal my 2k health lion?" even if it s being healed focus fire will still get rid of the lion

as a reminder that s a game relying heavily on teamplay

[Eisenhart]

as far as i m concerned when i ask my lion to attack a certain target and that a melee attack my lion my target does not change for the attacker so i cant fetch the attacker without having to click on him which can be quite complicated given the messy situation of the melee.
Well that is the point, just because someone other than your first intended target starts attacking the lion, then its better to just random fetch than to let the lion die. Sure there is targeting but that really isnt a problem for the WL on my server.

so yes a melee can perfectly CC or damage a lion without being fetched. why wouldnt it be possible?believe what you want but i suggest that you try to change your target for someone that is hidden in the zerg and see how easy it is to select them
They can if fetch is on cooldown or the WL isnt changing targets to one of the melee persons on the lion. But that really isnt something the melee can do, its more of a failure in control from the WL master.

btw what happen if two melees attack simultaneously the lion..
1) which melee is being fetched?
2) on what basis is the will-be fetched chosen?
3) with what mechanical is the melee targeted?
Fetch one and let the lion die? Come on its not that hard that if more than one melee is on the lion you just fetch one of them.

of course communication is a valid argument, a group is more efficient than another if it communicates in a more efficient manner and better organised. That s the source of success for a group.
The only way communication makes a difference is if one side cant communicate. Melee can communicate true, but so can the WL master who has direct control over the pet which means communication makes no difference. If the pet was automaticly controlled where you couldnt give it input then there would be a difference. So your argument is futile since the situation is the same for both sides.

yes WL can communicate too but to say what? "healer can you heal my 2k health lion?" even if it s being healed focus fire will still get rid of the lion
No one can survive focus fire. The point is that melee cant focus fire on the lion without 1 being fetched. If they make it possible its because the WL master did incorrect targeting or simply wasnt fast enough. Not because the oppertunity wasnt there.

as a reminder that s a game relying heavily on teamplay
True, but i never said melee should have a counter for it. All i said was that it should have a longer cooldown to stop chaindragging. There is a difference.

[jdela13]

Can we all please stop the nerf posts? Please. Fetch I am sure is a pain in the rear for destruction. But when? The same areas where magnet and TE are a pain in the rear for Order. IE, when it has no bearing on anything. You are either being spawn camped in a scenario or you are being camped outside of your warcamp. Does the ability have any use in Keep or Fort takes? No. It has limited ability in open spaces when an actual fight is going on, but pounce for a WL is generally better.

So why do we ask Mythic to nerf Fetch, TE, Magnet, Witch Elves, etc when so many classes need other fixes? And I am not even talking about balance fixes, I mean skills that just do not even work fixes. Can't we all just bombard Mythic with fix broken skills threads instead of nerf threads because this class annoys me right now? Some classes need actual help that deserves more attention than nerfs at this point. Fetch and Magnet and TE while annoying can be dealt with for now. I think we can all agree that some classes need help and that actual non-working skills need to be fixed no?

[Ceelarini]

Well that is the point, just because someone other than your first intended target starts attacking the lion, then its better to just random fetch than to let the lion die. Sure there is targeting but that really isnt a problem for the WL on my server.


They can if fetch is on cooldown or the WL isnt changing targets to one of the melee persons on the lion. But that really isnt something the melee can do, its more of a failure in control from the WL master.


Fetch one and let the lion die? Come on its not that hard that if more than one melee is on the lion you just fetch one of them.


The only way communication makes a difference is if one side cant communicate. Melee can communicate true, but so can the WL master who has direct control over the pet which means communication makes no difference. If the pet was automaticly controlled where you couldnt give it input then there would be a difference. So your argument is futile since the situation is the same for both sides.


No one can survive focus fire. The point is that melee cant focus fire on the lion without 1 being fetched. If they make it possible its because the WL master did incorrect targeting or simply wasnt fast enough. Not because the oppertunity wasnt there.


True, but i never said melee should have a counter for it. All i said was that it should have a longer cooldown to stop chaindragging. There is a difference.

you never said that melee should have a counter for it but you kept asking how a melee could deal with fetch without being fetched. dont make me look for your quote. You got your answer.

lion can be silenced,root,snare,stun: all destro melee have a plethora of CC for all that matter, not even pointing precisely at marauder with AOE spec.

We are more arguing on human factors rather than mechanism and i m sure you know that human factors cant really be nerfed, can they?

[Ceelarini]

double post

[Eisenhart]

you never said that melee should have a counter for it but you kept asking how a melee could deal with fetch without being fetched. dont make me look for your quote. You got your answer.
My point being that abilities you cant defend yourself from should be on longer cooldowns than 10 seconds. The reason why i keep asking is because most of the people try to avoid answering the question because they know that melee has no real counters to it.

lion can be silenced,root,snare,stun: all destro melee have a plethora of CC for all that matter, not even pointing precisely at marauder with AOE spec.
Majority of the melee CC has melee range which means theyll be fetched before they can CC.

We are more arguing on human factors rather than mechanism and i m sure you know that human factors cant really be nerfed, can they?
I never said nerf human factors, but humans cant react as fast as a computer which means once the melee is within fetch range of the lion he will be instantly fetched, faster than a human can react. All I have said is that fetch and TE both need a longer cooldown to stop chaindragging.

[Ceelarini]

My point being that abilities you cant defend yourself from should be on longer cooldowns than 10 seconds. The reason why i keep asking is because most of the people try to avoid answering the question because they know that melee has no real counters to it.


Majority of the melee CC has melee range which means theyll be fetched before they can CC.


I never said nerf human factors, but humans cant react as fast as a computer which means once the melee is within fetch range of the lion he will be instantly fetched, faster than a human can react. All I have said is that fetch and TE both need a longer cooldown to stop chaindragging.

it s up to the player to activate fetch..beside how can he/she know what the melee destro are going to do? which melee is going to CC the cat etc..

it s not as straightforward as you argue and that s were one of its weakness reside.

here is the point of view of a shaman on the question
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225302

[Eisenhart]

it s up to the player to activate fetch..beside how can he/she know what the melee destro are going to do? which melee is going to CC the cat etc..

it s not as straightforward as you argue and that s were one of its weakness reside.

here is the point of view of a shaman on the question
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225302
The shaman isnt saying something which hasnt been said numerous times before. Ranged people have to kill it, it dies easily, people without RDPS are toast.

However, that doesnt fix the issues of chaindragging.

Others have mentioned that a reduction in range to give the pet more survivability would also be a step in the right direction. However, im only posting because of the chaindragging, even tho the ability could be improved.

You wont know which melee is going to CC etc, however you can see which destru gets within the pets fetch range first and just grab the first possible, even if its not your first intended target.

[Ceelarini]

of course it fixes the problem of chaindragging..

no lion no fetch

it s not that complicated

[gorefist]

it s up to the player to activate fetch..beside how can he/she know what the melee destro are going to do? which melee is going to CC the cat etc..

it s not as straightforward as you argue and that s were one of its weakness reside.

here is the point of view of a shaman on the question
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225302

ceelarini no offence mate but your really just side steping the question that Eisenhart has said a 100 times all ready on this topic

melee cant stop fetch that kinda simple but if we can get back on topic about tweaking the skill then it would be great

as i said shorten the range by 90/80 ft since there a melee mdps class as i said about 20 times now they should be in the thick of the fight even when useing this skill.. or still haveing the threat of being in danager since all mdps classes so far do suffer from this it only seems the white lion dosent not since they most of the time stand at the back with the range and casters and spam fetch every 10 seconds..

so lowering the ranger is one thing that should be done thats a fact all so incraseing the cool down by 20/30 seconds.. as i all so said.. if mythic done this i wouldnt mind giveing the pet about 2k more hit points to deal with magic or melee attacks.

-gorefist

[Ceelarini]

ceelarini no offence mate but your really just side steping the question that Eisenhart has said a 100 times all ready on this topic

melee cant stop fetch that kinda simple but if we can get back on topic about tweaking the skill then it would be great

as i said shorten the range by 90/80 ft since there a melee mdps class as i said about 20 times now they should be in the thick of the fight even when useing this skill.. or still haveing the threat of being in danager since all mdps classes so far do suffer from this it only seems the white lion dosent not since they most of the time stand at the back with the range and casters and spam fetch every 10 seconds..

so lowering the ranger is one thing that should be done thats a fact all so incraseing the cool down by 20/30 seconds.. as i all so said.. if mythic done this i wouldnt mind giveing the pet about 2k more hit points to deal with magic or melee attacks.

-gorefist*

no offense taken but your argument is like saying tweak WE because healers cant stop them

you just refuse to recognise that against a good grp or in large Orvr fight the lion is that weak that it s impossible for him to survive whether the range is 3 miles or 3 feet

[Eisenhart]

of course it fixes the problem of chaindragging..

no lion no fetch

it s not that complicated
The melee person can still not prevent it and thus chaindragging is still possible. There is no defending 10 seconds on such a strong ability, and same goes for TE.
Id rather see a more reliable ability on a longer cooldown. If the lion is such a huge liability to the ability then you wouldnt mind making it more reliable on a longer cooldown right?

Like gorefirst has proposed.

you just refuse to recognise that against a good grp or in large Orvr fight the lion is that weak that it s impossible for him to survive whether the range is 3 miles or 3 feet

This statement makes no sense. Gore is suggestion changes which would make it reliable against good groups.

[Ceelarini]

how does a CC not prevent a lion from fetching??
besides you still think that the fetch is automatic and that the WL will fetch a melee which is stupid.
what s the point of fetching a BO?

lower the range if you want but i d like WL to get more CC capability like the marauder..

say an AOE stun

as it stands fetch is one of the few useful trick of the WL.

[Eisenhart]

how does a CC not prevent a lion from fetching??
Because the CC is melee range

what s the point of fetching a BO?
If the choice is between fetching a BO or just let the lion die, the choice is easy.

lower the range if you want but i d like WL to get more CC capability like the marauder.

say an AOE stun
Yes... because this game really needs more CC and not less.

as it stands fetch is one of the few useful trick of the WL.
Didnt you just say it was unreliable? Fetch is still useful on a longer cooldown. From what ive seen the WL isnt defenseless or useless. It might be a 1 trick pony as pet spec but that doesnt mean other specs arent good. Anyway, being pet spec shouldnt be a 1 trick pony so changes are needed.

[Hashmalum]

I'm a White Lion in the camp of 'Please, nerf fetch, but buff our class when you do it.'

Fetch is an okay skill, but it's definitely not Iwin from our perspective.


A WL that's in the backline using fetch (hereafter referred to as 'fetchbotter') is generally not participating in the melee. A WL that isn't fetchbotting (ie. is fighting frontlines) is essentially using a slower, more versatile and more easily countered TE.
A fetchbotter is basically putting all of his attention into spamming a skill with a success rate of between 90-0% (depending on the enemy team more than the WL's own skill), a usetime of 4+ seconds and a downtime of 17+ seconds.
A fetchbotter is doing somewhere in the neighborhood of 35% less damage with their pet being on the other side of the battlefield (or dead) & precious tactic slots dedicated to having the lion able to catch it's target & stay alive while it does so.
With 80% of it's utility/cc and 30% of it's damage in it's rather occupied pet, the fetchbotter is actually fairly vulnerable when attacked.
Fetch is easily countered by a team. CC, taunts, snares and between 1-3 attacks.

Fact of the matter is, fetch is a gimmick. It's a skill that's exceedingly useful against poor teams, and drops exponentially in effectiveness as one faces more skilled teams. Beyond that simple fact, there's ways to abuse said gimmick (chain fetching), and these abuses tend to get people riled up more than anything. I can see the frustration this causes, and fixes with this fetch abuse in mind are ok in my book (with caveats, see below).

Pre 1.0.6, the classes across destro & order were fairly even in the big picture. With considerable buffs to 2 of the weakest destro classes (magus, squig herder), this balance has shifted. Before, 4/7 Order were considered superior to their destro counterparts in valid matchups (2 invalid, 2 even matchups), now considered 4/10. There's fewer things now, that Order can bring to the table, that aren't trumped by a destro equivalent. Fetch is arguably one of those things. In balancing Fetch with a longer cooldown or shorter range, I ask you to consider:


What happens to terrible embrace, in the same vein?
The skill is bugged, and sometimes misfires on a button click if one of the two (lion or target) is obscured by terrain, at which time the target isn't fetched, but the skill cools down regardless. A longer cooldown, with this bug active, would mean fetch drops a great deal in effectiveness. Is this acceptable? Should the change come regardless of whether it compounds on an existing bug for the class?
With a shorter range on fetch, a WL is forced to operate closer to the enemy. As Marauders have oft complained, this shortens one's lifespan considerably. With that in mind, Marauders have ways to enhance their lifespan (ie. Hulking Brute (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8444)) while WL do not. Do WL get improved survivability options with a lowered range to fetch?
There's a pervading suspicion that the class has faced some real sacrifices in maintaining the fetch gimmick (ie. Would one be able to justify the pet having 2k health & low defenses across the board, if fetch wasn't a balancing factor?). What buffs are due to the class with a weaker fetch?

When a destro can talk with all of the above in mind, that destro will have my attention and respect.

[Ceelarini]

Because the CC is melee range


If the choice is between fetching a BO or just let the lion die, the choice is easy.


Yes... because this game really needs more CC and not less.


Didnt you just say it was unreliable? Fetch is still useful on a longer cooldown. From what ive seen the WL isnt defenseless or useless. It might be a 1 trick pony as pet spec but that doesnt mean other specs arent good. Anyway, being pet spec shouldnt be a 1 trick pony so changes are needed.

no i didnt say it was unreliable it s just not as efficient against good group but still good if you flank a group

anyway hashmalum wrote in a much better and clearer way what i think

[Chuffed]

True, but i never said melee should have a counter for it. All i said was that it should have a longer cooldown to stop chaindragging. There is a difference.
--------------------
My point being that abilities you cant defend yourself from should be on longer cooldowns than 10 seconds. The reason why i keep asking is because most of the people try to avoid answering the question because they know that melee has no real counters to it.


May I ask then, why you continually bring up the fact the melee have no counter to it while trying to validate your reasoning as to why it should have a longer CD? I know the second quote is an attempt to do this however its not a valid one. There are a plethora skills out there that melee do not have a counter for.

How can a melee counter a Marauders Thunderous Blow for example? Run out of LoS? Hope he misses? Thats basically the same as for Fetch. That was just one example but go through any class and you will find alot more abilities that you have no counter for.

And as has been reinterated numorous times, its a team game, your team should be able to counter it for you. You dont want to take that fact into consideration.

[Eisenhart]

I'm a White Lion in the camp of 'Please, nerf fetch, but buff our class when you do it.'

Fetch is an okay skill, but it's definitely not Iwin from our perspective.


A WL that's in the backline using fetch (hereafter referred to as 'fetchbotter') is generally not participating in the melee. A WL that isn't fetchbotting (ie. is fighting frontlines) is essentially using a slower, more versatile and more easily countered TE.
A fetchbotter is basically putting all of his attention into spamming a skill with a success rate of between 90-0% (depending on the enemy team more than the WL's own skill), a usetime of 4+ seconds and a downtime of 17+ seconds.
A fetchbotter is doing somewhere in the neighborhood of 35% less damage with their pet being on the other side of the battlefield (or dead) & precious tactic slots dedicated to having the lion able to catch it's target & stay alive while it does so.
With 80% of it's utility/cc and 30% of it's damage in it's rather occupied pet, the fetchbotter is actually fairly vulnerable when attacked.
Fetch is easily countered by a team. CC, taunts, snares and between 1-3 attacks.

Fact of the matter is, fetch is a gimmick. It's a skill that's exceedingly useful against poor teams, and drops exponentially in effectiveness as one faces more skilled teams. Beyond that simple fact, there's ways to abuse said gimmick (chain fetching), and these abuses tend to get people riled up more than anything.
Nothing here i disagree with. My point has been to increase fetch and TE cooldown to stop chaindragging and increase usefulness of the pet spec to give WL a role between the fetches.
There has also been ideas to decrease the range of fetch to 100ft and then make the pet have more survivability. That way a more reliable ability.

May I ask then, why you continually bring up the fact the melee have no counter to it while trying to validate your reasoning as to why it should have a longer CD? I know the second quote is an attempt to do this however its not a valid one. There are a plethora skills out there that melee do not have a counter for.
Because pulling people far into enemy ranks is in 9 out of 10 cases a death sentance, even for tanks.
However, my point was to remove chaindragging entirely from both sides by increasing the cooldown on both fetch and TE. Adjusting one would balance out by adjusting the other. But my reasoning is the same for both sides, im certain that theres order who are just annoyed by marauder chaindragging.

People often use the reference to WE, where a WE jumping a caster is also a death sentance within 5 seconds. These situations ruins the fun and should really be fixed or not occur too often.

[Hashmalum]

Nothing here i disagree with. My point has been to increase fetch and TE cooldown to stop chaindragging and increase usefulness of the pet spec to give WL a role between the fetches.

There has also been ideas to decrease the range of fetch to 100ft and then make the pet have more survivability. That way a more reliable ability.Keep in mind, Fetch is available to any WL that's reached level 40 (Ditto for TE & Marauders). It's not restricted to WL that are pet spec any more than Terrible Embrace is restricted to Savagery marauders. As such, nerfs to Fetch shouldn't necessarily be weighed vs. a greater focus on pet spec.

I lean more towards an overall buff to survivability for WL and pet (focused primarily on pet, as it's currently very crippling to the class concept), with a shorter range and a longer immunity timer. In my eyes, this would encourage a more active, combative playstyle, rather than having the class as a backline caster with one ability.

People often use the reference to WE, where a WE jumping a caster is also a death sentance within 5 seconds. These situations ruins the fun and should really be fixed or not occur too often.

Agree here. Pulling skills are not fun to be targeted with, guaranteed death situations kind of suck.

The game's a long way away from really stopping this from happening (if that's the dev's eventual aim) - healers would need a way to protect a target vs. focus fire, we'd need ways to mitigate debuff spam and CC spam (I'd prefer counter-abilities to such to be healer & tank, personally).

[CptCosmic]

I rly dont care how you nerf fetch or hentai tentacles. slap a 30 sec or more cd on it if you like but PLZ do something about the pets survivability. I would rly like to use it without it dieing to 1-2 ranged spells or due to random AOEs. it should atleast endure half of that what the owners of the pet is capable.

[piercey]

Fetch is not an ability I expect to see in the title of a thread about nerfs. Or anything related to White Lions really..

AOE disables? Sure. AOE disorients? Sure. Bane shield? Sure. Knockbacks? Sure.

Nerf White Lions? Is it April 1st already?

The way I see Fetch vs Terrible Embrace is you get more range, but you also give up reliability. It is far easier to stop a gimp lion pet than it is a Marauder PC.

Anyways I should stay away from this thread or I'll end up getting banned. TBH I'm shocked that it isn't locked already. Mods must be enjoying their weekend or something.

[Aric]

Like someone mentioned earlier. Poor players will get chain fetched, and smarter players will learn to cope with it. Anyone thought how long it wil take from Destr to learn how to effectively counter fetch? Its been around for a while now, and still we get these threads up every week.

Lets turn this otherway for a change...

Not all order groups have luxury of having white lions in their group, its statistical fact that WLs are one of the least played class at order side, as compared to marauder, which is very common sight in battlefield.

Ive seen few posts about nerfing terrible embrace, "since pulling abilities are such a pain and horrible death to the target"... But those posts are very few compared to nerf fetch posts. Why is that? Has order population managed to learn faster to live with pulling mechanic? Are destr players generaly more whiny than order?

I dont know... I just hope you guys would already learn how to negate opponents strenghts instead constantly crying for nerfs for whatever is bothering you currently.

Heres one thought. If you get fetched, you know its impossible to run (refer to term "chainfetched"), and knowing this you still try to run, why is that? Wouldnt you rather be happy to get close and personal with that nasty white lion?

[Arrelaine]

Actually, several people said to put a cooldown on Fetch! -and- TE. Even destro players.

[Jinxed Fortune]

I'm a White Lion in the camp of 'Please, nerf fetch, but buff our class when you do it.'

Fetch is an okay skill, but it's definitely not Iwin from our perspective.


A WL that's in the backline using fetch (hereafter referred to as 'fetchbotter') is generally not participating in the melee. A WL that isn't fetchbotting (ie. is fighting frontlines) is essentially using a slower, more versatile and more easily countered TE.
A fetchbotter is basically putting all of his attention into spamming a skill with a success rate of between 90-0% (depending on the enemy team more than the WL's own skill), a usetime of 4+ seconds and a downtime of 17+ seconds.
A fetchbotter is doing somewhere in the neighborhood of 35% less damage with their pet being on the other side of the battlefield (or dead) & precious tactic slots dedicated to having the lion able to catch it's target & stay alive while it does so.
With 80% of it's utility/cc and 30% of it's damage in it's rather occupied pet, the fetchbotter is actually fairly vulnerable when attacked.
Fetch is easily countered by a team. CC, taunts, snares and between 1-3 attacks.
Fact of the matter is, fetch is a gimmick. It's a skill that's exceedingly useful against poor teams, and drops exponentially in effectiveness as one faces more skilled teams. Beyond that simple fact, there's ways to abuse said gimmick (chain fetching), and these abuses tend to get people riled up more than anything. I can see the frustration this causes, and fixes with this fetch abuse in mind are ok in my book (with caveats, see below).

Pre 1.0.6, the classes across destro & order were fairly even in the big picture. With considerable buffs to 2 of the weakest destro classes (magus, squig herder), this balance has shifted. Before, 4/7 Order were considered superior to their destro counterparts in valid matchups (2 invalid, 2 even matchups), now considered 4/10. There's fewer things now, that Order can bring to the table, that aren't trumped by a destro equivalent. Fetch is arguably one of those things. In balancing Fetch with a longer cooldown or shorter range, I ask you to consider:


What happens to terrible embrace, in the same vein?
The skill is bugged, and sometimes misfires on a button click if one of the two (lion or target) is obscured by terrain, at which time the target isn't fetched, but the skill cools down regardless. A longer cooldown, with this bug active, would mean fetch drops a great deal in effectiveness. Is this acceptable? Should the change come regardless of whether it compounds on an existing bug for the class?
With a shorter range on fetch, a WL is forced to operate closer to the enemy. As Marauders have oft complained, this shortens one's lifespan considerably. With that in mind, Marauders have ways to enhance their lifespan (ie. Hulking Brute (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8444)) while WL do not. Do WL get improved survivability options with a lowered range to fetch?
There's a pervading suspicion that the class has faced some real sacrifices in maintaining the fetch gimmick (ie. Would one be able to justify the pet having 2k health & low defenses across the board, if fetch wasn't a balancing factor?). What buffs are due to the class with a weaker fetch?
When a destro can talk with all of the above in mind, that destro will have my attention and respect.

Quoted for truth, justice, and the white lion way.

[Dizkzak]

Quoted for truth, justice, and the white lion way.

Fetch and Terrible embrace have no business in a real pvp game. Neither does magnet or rift though that is another argument.

Fetch is straight lame. Needs to go as painful as that may sound to all you WL's. Same with TE.

[Marsares]

Is Fetch annoying? Yes! Can it be easily countered? Yes! I take out Squigs for breakfast with any of my classes, even my AM.

I too am amazed that there's another nerf thread about Fetch. No offense, but clearly there isn't anything else to moan about by this Destro dominated board. We had the BW-nerf bandwagon (tick), the IB nerf-brigade (tick), the knockback nerf-campaign (work in progress), the KotBS nerf-action (tick) and now bubbles got nerfed which affect most classes but impact the SM most whilst it was already the weakest tank in the game.

Clearly now it's time for the nerf-the-gimp-WL-drama. A pet class that is more efficient without pet, come on!

Whilst we talk about Fetch, let's conveniently forget about the stacking of Bane Shield. The AoE Disorients and Disables. The insane proccing of WE skills. One second plink for the SH that shoots anything out the water that a SW has. Double-stat stacking for WH versus single stat for WE. Etcetera, etcetera.

At the moment IB and KotBS are the stronger ones of their mirrors, all others are in the favour of Destro. Indeed, lets nerf Order even further into the ground. Destro will not be satisfied until they have their "I Win!" button.

Put a 30s cooldown on Fetch! Fine, I hate CC just as much as any of you do.

However, nerf Fetch only under the following conditions: As long as the Marauder gets the same cooldown, the WL gets the same MDPS capabilities, the WL tactics gets fixed as half are PvE oriented, pet pathing gets improved, the WL's capabilities aren't positional just like the Marauder and pet survivability gets increased just like the Marauder is a lot more sturdier than any WL out there.

You want balance, you'll get balance.

[gorefist]

Is Fetch annoying? Yes! Can it be easily countered? Yes! I take out Squigs for breakfast with any of my classes, even my AM.

I too am amazed that there's another nerf thread about Fetch. No offense, but clearly there isn't anything else to moan about by this Destro dominated board. We had the BW-nerf bandwagon (tick), the IB nerf-brigade (tick), the knockback nerf-campaign (work in progress), the KotBS nerf-action (tick) and now bubbles got nerfed which affect most classes but impact the SM most whilst it was already the weakest tank in the game.

Clearly now it's time for the nerf-the-gimp-WL-drama. A pet class that is more efficient without pet, come on!

Whilst we talk about Fetch, let's conveniently forget about the stacking of Bane Shield. The AoE Disorients and Disables. The insane proccing of WE skills. One second plink for the SH that shoots anything out the water that a SW has. Double-stat stacking for WH versus single stat for WE. Etcetera, etcetera.

At the moment IB and KotBS are the stronger ones of their mirrors, all others are in the favour of Destro. Indeed, lets nerf Order even further into the ground. Destro will not be satisfied until they have their "I Win!" button.

Put a 30s cooldown on Fetch! Fine, I hate CC just as much as any of you do.

However, nerf Fetch only under the following conditions: As long as the Marauder gets the same cooldown, the WL gets the same MDPS capabilities, the WL tactics gets fixed as half are PvE oriented, pet pathing gets improved, the WL's capabilities aren't positional just like the Marauder and pet survivability gets increased just like the Marauder is a lot more sturdier than any WL out there.

You want balance, you'll get balance.

if you look at many of the post here they argee both classes need a longer cool down and with fetch a shorter range.. i dont mind if they do get a shorter range and a longer cool down as long as there pets get more hitpoints..

and again a nother order player whines saying destro classes out do order what a supprise.. to be honest most classes are equal and to be honest i know this for a fact since i have played both order and destro classes.. yes classes have diffrent skills per class you all so have to think about the gear the person is wearing + admout of skill a person is useing to beat you.. but people all ways forget this and still cry about it..

and as it goes for nerfs of the bw ect if you looked at the patch notes it all so effected scorceress as well as ( the so called damage shields nerf) all so effected other classes not just sword masters..

maybe its about time some order players look at the bigger picture and stop whineing

[Zzulu]

If they decrease the range of fetch they need to

a) at least double the HP of the lion and add a lot of resists to it

b) make it so that tanks can't just taunt it away

c) make the pet much more immune to CC


Because if fetch gets a shorter range, it will become like Terrible embrace, but with a pet that can be killed, CC'd, tanked and with the WL needing to equip a tactic for it to work (speed training).

So yeah, they need to be careful when they nerf fetch.

[Heretofore]

No, it doesn't.

Marauders can pull too, and the lower range is offset by many other things, you can kill or taunt the lion and there are many more marauders than WL.

[Marsares]

if you look at many of the post here they argee both classes need a longer cool down and with fetch a shorter range.. i dont mind if they do get a shorter range and a longer cool down as long as there pets get more hitpoints..

and again a nother order player whines saying destro classes out do order what a supprise.. to be honest most classes are equal and to be honest i know this for a fact since i have played both order and destro classes.. yes classes have diffrent skills per class you all so have to think about the gear the person is wearing + admout of skill a person is useing to beat you.. but people all ways forget this and still cry about it..

and as it goes for nerfs of the bw ect if you looked at the patch notes it all so effected scorceress as well as ( the so called damage shields nerf) all so effected other classes not just sword masters..

maybe its about time some order players look at the bigger picture and stop whineing

Indeed, and I said that you can nerf the cooldown of Fetch! as long as you bring the rest of the WL abilities on-par with the Marauders one, which is much sturdier, does not suffer positional attacks and, although it too suffers useless tactics, it doesn't seem to be build with PvE in mind as the WL strangely enough does, whilst it is not reliant for its TE on a 2k pet that can be killed, taunted, CC-ed and whatever, let alone that it gets lost due to its horrendous pathing issues.

And all other classes being on par? You're having a laugh, aren't you? You cannot, for the life of you admit that AM is equal to a Shammy as the latter has much more survivability, or that WH is equal to a WE especially in burst damage, not to mention a 1s Plink SH vs a once a blue moon FA SW, or for that matter a KotBS vs a Chosen (KotBS is better at the moment), an Engineer vs a Magus (Engineer being the better one). Yes, all others are relatively comparable, but there's still some way to go on the rest.

Yes, Sorc got nerfed just as much as the BW, but that was an unfortunate circumstance that Destro didn't count on. Sometimes the world is fair, and you do reap what you sow (i.e. countless nerf threads). Besides that, more often than not I see Sorcs now topping the damage charts. Besides Sorc, name me any Destro class that got the nerf-bat, then name the Order ones (I'll help you out, BW, IB, KotBS, and now SM).

And, yes, bubbles affect most classes, but they made a SM into a semi-viable tank even though it was universally already regarded as the weakest class out there, it is now totally gimped and they can basically bin their Vaul path. DoK would probably be the Destro class most affected after a SM, but no-one in their right mind can argue that a DoK still isn't a very very good class, even though difficult to play.

[Dise]

Come'on! Fetch is fine. A ranged ability with no risk to the caster should provide reward directly related to its range! In fact, they should make it caster ability (instead of pet) and make it 300ft insta cast.

P.S. Crying nerf here won't do a thing. Log into the game and submit feed back there (press "H" then "Submit Feedback")

[Indasoth]

P.S. Crying nerf here won't do a thing. Log into the game and submit feed back there (press "H" then "Submit Feedback")

Or at least post on VGN, where the devs actually go.

[Hashmalum]

Is Fetch annoying? Yes! Can it be easily countered? Yes! I take out Squigs for breakfast with any of my classes, even my AM.

I too am amazed that there's another nerf thread about Fetch. No offense, but clearly there isn't anything else to moan about by this Destro dominated board. We had the BW-nerf bandwagon (tick), the IB nerf-brigade (tick), the knockback nerf-campaign (work in progress), the KotBS nerf-action (tick) and now bubbles got nerfed which affect most classes but impact the SM most whilst it was already the weakest tank in the game.

Clearly now it's time for the nerf-the-gimp-WL-drama. A pet class that is more efficient without pet, come on!

Whilst we talk about Fetch, let's conveniently forget about the stacking of Bane Shield. The AoE Disorients and Disables. The insane proccing of WE skills. One second plink for the SH that shoots anything out the water that a SW has. Double-stat stacking for WH versus single stat for WE. Etcetera, etcetera.

At the moment IB and KotBS are the stronger ones of their mirrors, all others are in the favour of Destro. Indeed, lets nerf Order even further into the ground. Destro will not be satisfied until they have their "I Win!" button.

Put a 30s cooldown on Fetch! Fine, I hate CC just as much as any of you do.

However, nerf Fetch only under the following conditions: As long as the Marauder gets the same cooldown, the WL gets the same MDPS capabilities, the WL tactics gets fixed as half are PvE oriented, pet pathing gets improved, the WL's capabilities aren't positional just like the Marauder and pet survivability gets increased just like the Marauder is a lot more sturdier than any WL out there.

You want balance, you'll get balance.

I think this mostly hyperbole. As I see it, order had more than 2 classes that were superior in their mirrors (BW, EG, RP, SW), and while two of those were still so lousy as to hardly matter (engineer, shadow warrior), they were still superior to their mirrors. With the big patches, we had the edge as far as tanks went (KoBS > CH, IB > BG), but Magus arguably rose above engineer in viability, Archmage fell from grace, and Squig Herder turned the tables on Shadow Warrior.

Now, my views on balance are a bit skewed there. I started doing a lot more PvP against Magus pull teams in PvP (where destro does have better AoE CC, which makes the magus pull a lot more devastating than engineer's), so it may well be that Magus really isn't up to par vs. engineer, and I'm seeing them as superior because they're in heavily organized teams. I haven't really seen top tier Blackguards at work yet, but they seem to be about as survivable as Swordmasters, with backloaded damage (weaker than SM at the start, stronger once hate is built up). Don't really fear BG though.

While I agree with the root of your argument (Destro is louder, destro gets more of the nerfs it wants to see), I think demanding a huge line of fixes in exchange for a single nerf is a little unrealistic. A lot of those changes would be nice, but they aren't related to the subject at hand. IMHO, I think such replies do more harm than good, as they're clearly biased towards one side, they get Destro all defensive, and the devs aren't liable to listen.

I think, conversely, it is realistic to expect that cooldown increases come with bug fixes (so aforementioned bugs aren't exaggerated by the longer cooldown, see my post earlier in this thread), and that range decreases come with buffs to WL's & pet's survivability, so the class isn't too vulnerable.

Anyhow, the topic is Fetch. Right now, the idea that appeals most to me is to lower the range and improve the lion survivability. This gives the skill far more reliability (it's very bad vs. AoE & any team with the skill to target and kill the lion) and reduces the 'zomg I got fetched from 150' issues. Beyond that, make pulls exclusive from knockbacks, and give them a long immunity timer (60s?). This helps WL by addressing the issue that those widdle ironbreakers tend to do tons of small knockbacks that keep giving enemies immunities to our fetches, while also addressing the issue of chain pulls.

[heretik32]

30 second or more CD on both fetch and TE. And I'm saying that as a marauder who uses TE almost as soon as it is up.

I'm sick and tired of WL pulling me increment after increment behind their enemy lines without me being able to do anything about it cause the player has already moved out of melee range by the time I end my free flight. Probably as sick and tired as my opponents not being able to get away from me cause I pull them in every 10 seconds.

[Madam X]

Only problem i have with fetch is the range..somethings wrong when a melee character stands behind his bright wizards and pulls you right to the back of enemy lines over and over and over again..theres no challenge in that? no combat either since fetch = dead destro by the time he lands.

[postaler]

"How can a Mdps stop fetch?"

A SINGLE MDPS CANT!
But since this is a TEAMBASED ONLINE RVR GAME not a FPS its fine.

It all comes down to your team bloody damnit just the way this game was intended!

so the answer to this question that has been on almost everysingle page in this here thread is: TEAMBASED RVR GAME, Your TEAM CAN and SHOULD STOP it.

Its just that simple seriously....

Lion have poor health and are taken out in mather of seconds if you are playing with ppl who play like a TEAM!

A healer/caster stand 0chance of winning if a WE/WH pops stealth behind em, They also need ... yes you got it their TEAM! to help them survive it.

Chaindragging is Wrong and Fetch do need a longer CD, however range and mechanics are just fine they way they are.

If Mythic decides to change the Fetch to say 65y and buff the Lion with more HP,Resists etc you all know that there will sprout up nerf thread all over the damn place with topics like "Lions to strong" "Nerf Pets" "A lion just soloed me" etc etc its just the way MMO-Players reacts when their ego/skill is hurt.

[gorefist]

"How can a Mdps stop fetch?"

A SINGLE MDPS CANT!
But since this is a TEAMBASED ONLINE RVR GAME not a FPS its fine.

It all comes down to your team bloody damnit just the way this game was intended!

so the answer to this question that has been on almost everysingle page in this here thread is: TEAMBASED RVR GAME, Your TEAM CAN and SHOULD STOP it.

Its just that simple seriously....

Lion have poor health and are taken out in mather of seconds if you are playing with ppl who play like a TEAM!

A healer/caster stand 0chance of winning if a WE/WH pops stealth behind em, They also need ... yes you got it their TEAM! to help them survive it.

Chaindragging is Wrong and Fetch do need a longer CD, however range and mechanics are just fine they way they are.

If Mythic decides to change the Fetch to say 65y and buff the Lion with more HP,Resists etc you all know that there will sprout up nerf thread all over the damn place with topics like "Lions to strong" "Nerf Pets" "A lion just soloed me" etc etc its just the way MMO-Players reacts when their ego/skill is hurt.

i dout that would happen to be honest.. since a lions damage is quite low.. but as i said 65 ft range would be fine with a 20/30 second cool down.. as i said be for there a mdps class they should be in the thick of the fight same as every other mdps class not useing a range skill to cain drag people in to the back lines to be mauled to death by a warband or less in a few seconds..every 10 seconds..

but i do argee the lion should have a tactic made for the pet to incrase the pets health by a nother 2k or less and have a littie bit more resistance.. if mythic do decide to change fetch to the adove.. the new tactic for the pet would be some thing like this

Beast Within
Rank Acquired 38

Increases pets Wounds by 190 and Increases Pets Resistance by 254

this would balance out the range you lost from Fetch..

[Gnarnok]

Now we have to have another tactic to make the pet more viable? It already takes 1-2 tactic slots to make the pet worth while having. Its getting stupid, just buff the stupid pet so people actually use it, dont give us another tactic.

[Hashmalum]

the new tactic for the pet would be some thing like this

Beast Within
Rank Acquired 38

Increases pets Wounds by 190 and Increases Pets Resistance by 254

this would balance out the range you lost from Fetch..

Can't/shouldn't be a tactic. In doing so, you're severely shortchanging the WL by making them drop tactics they otherwise need to be effective.

Pets need an innate buff to survivability, particularly if Fetch gets nerfed (as pet vulnerability is the primary balancing feature of Fetch. Weaker pet: stronger fetch, weaker fetch: stronger pet.).

Lions, more or less, are on par with a PvE non-champ enemy. If I send my level 40 pet in to attack a level 40 monster solo, then 30 seconds later I see the pet returning to me with 10% or less life. The lion has lower toughness, wounds & armor than a PvE enemy of equivalent level, but skills allow it to do slightly more damage to compensate.

Pets don't get wards, they can't be readily targetted for direct heals, the WL's own pet heal is pretty darn shoddy (750 healing over 15 seconds, no willpower, core.), and they're vulnerable to taunts and CC.

To put this at it's most blunt: Lions are more of a liability than a benefit, as class features go. Already, in order to compensate for the pet's shortcomings (mind you: this isn't ~improving~ the pet, it's making the pet suck less) we already have to give up essential tactic slots. If we don't want to use a pet for all of the above reasons, we give up a tactic slot to remain competent (keeping in mind we then have 2 utility abilities, to the Marauder's 20).

I appreciate your thoughts, Gorefist, but you can't repair the WL class with tactic options. There's no room or leeway in the WL's tactic bar. It's the equivalent of a situation where Beta closes with the Best Plan abilities costing 55 AP, then as people complain, adding in 2 new tactics that reduce the cost of these abilities by 25 each. The class is shortchanged to start off with, and while the new options would help, you're still leaving it behind the curve.

[gorefist]

Can't/shouldn't be a tactic. In doing so, you're severely shortchanging the WL by making them drop tactics they otherwise need to be effective.

Pets need an innate buff to survivability, particularly if Fetch gets nerfed (as pet vulnerability is the primary balancing feature of Fetch. Weaker pet: stronger fetch, weaker fetch: stronger pet.).

Lions, more or less, are on par with a PvE non-champ enemy. If I send my level 40 pet in to attack a level 40 monster solo, then 30 seconds later I see the pet returning to me with 10% or less life. The lion has lower toughness, wounds & armor than a PvE enemy of equivalent level, but skills allow it to do slightly more damage to compensate.

Pets don't get wards, they can't be readily targetted for direct heals, the WL's own pet heal is pretty darn shoddy (750 healing over 15 seconds, no willpower, core.), and they're vulnerable to taunts and CC.

To put this at it's most blunt: Lions are more of a liability than a benefit, as class features go. Already, in order to compensate for the pet's shortcomings (mind you: this isn't ~improving~ the pet, it's making the pet suck less) we already have to give up essential tactic slots. If we don't want to use a pet for all of the above reasons, we give up a tactic slot to remain competent (keeping in mind we then have 2 utility abilities, to the Marauder's 20).

I appreciate your thoughts, Gorefist, but you can't repair the WL class with tactic options. There's no room or leeway in the WL's tactic bar. It's the equivalent of a situation where Beta closes with the Best Plan abilities costing 55 AP, then as people complain, adding in 2 new tactics that reduce the cost of these abilities by 25 each. The class is shortchanged to start off with, and while the new options would help, you're still leaving it behind the curve.

maybe removeing speed training and merge it with the tactic i said might give you at least 3 more tactic slots to play with

Beast Within
Rank Acquired 10

Increases pet Wounds by 190 Increases pet Resistance by 254,Increases your War Lion's movement speed by 50%.

at least mergeing all pet tactics, you have a few slots left to play with but its only a idea

[Drowess]

You have AoE Disorients (That are based around a moving melee class and also actually work)

We have Fetch.

[Hashmalum]

Much better to have:


Innate wounds set to 350 rather than 200.
Innate resistances, armor, toughness, parry, dodge match that of master
Innate Pet speed increased by 10%.

Than to go the tactic route. This means using tactics like speed training and full grown is an option rather than a necessity for those wishing to make effective use of the pet. (As it stands, the pet won't use attacks, attack skills or fetch against enemies who are moving, because the pet's too slow to both keep up & do those things.)

[Evil Lite]

So the major complaints about fetch:

1) Range is to long for no risk.
2) Needs longer cool down.
3) Requires a tactic to be viable
4) pet dies to easily.

It is so simple to fix, why did nobody mention this before! When you use fetch the pet stays in place (maybe mark the area where the pet should stay) and the Player runs over to the person wanting to be fetched and hits them over the head then tosses them to the lion 150ft away. We can rename the skill to "feeding time" so it will be more appropriate for the White Lion to get the food, er.. enemy player then the lion.

What will it solve?
1) There is now risk, so the range can not be a complaint.
2) The White Lion will be dead if fetching, err... Using "feeding time." So the res timer should be a long enough cool down to placate most players (along with the free renown they just received).
3) No longer have to waste a tactic on speed training.
4) The survivability of the White Lion will scale with the equipment gained through RvR / PvE.

Presto!

Err... Did I forget /joking at the beginning of the post?

[rtunian]

imo all pulls (fetch, te, cr, and em) should all be removed. the pull mechanics are constantly abused, particularly during keep seige: pulling people through doors, or off of the ramparts.

i agree that wl needs to be redesigned, since presently, all they seem to be viable for is fetching. marauder on the other hand can lose te and remain viable.

engineer and magus have no business having point blank pulls in the first place. honestly, what sense does it make for a squishie to summon the 6 nearest bad guys to him? or from a fluff perpsective, why would an engineer, who carries alot of metal, set off an electromagnet at his feet? why would a magus tear open a rift in reality, exposing the warp right in front of him? (that would be suicide, btw)

as an aside, i disagree that all mdps "belong" at the front line. having a few back by the squishies (in mass orvr) is a huge boon, since that's where the we's and wh's tend to appear.

[Feclump]

I wouldn't have a problem with that at all. As soon as you give White Lions the frontline aoe utility that marauders have that can stack with other destruction abilities. Until then we will continue to "abuse" i.e. use the one skill that actually might be useful in orvr for the class.


So sick of this weak defelection by WL's trying to protect their overpowered asses from the much needed balancing.

The WL has far better damage, kills oponents much easier than marauders, have better survivability, and have superior range to the marauder. And of course fetch is the most overpowered ability in the game.

My god man, the WL is light years better than the marauder right now. Its not even close. Your class will get nerfed, there is no doubt about that, and it won't just be fetch either. There is no down side to your class right now, and that needs to change.

[Hashmalum]

The WL has far better damage

Marauder has better AoE. WL has better single target (and only that because of a single tactic).

Have better survivabilityNews to me.

From what skills, tactics or behavior do we get this survivability?

Marauders get Hulking Brute (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8444). We get...?

My god man, the WL is light years better than the marauder right now. Its not even close. Your class will get nerfed, there is no doubt about that, and it won't just be fetch either. There is no down side to your class right now, and that needs to change.No downside?

WL have half the utility the marauder does.
WL have a fraction of the CC.
WL have 2 PvE only tactics, 2 PvE only abilities, 1 PvP only ability, narrowing their options in their chosen field.
WL are dependent on a pet to employ 80% of their utility.
WL are forced to use 25% or 50% of their available tactic slots solely to support said pet (or to be competent without lion).
WL do, on average, 30% less damage on their skills. The lion's damage is meant to make up for this, but pet is too short lived and clumsy to reliably do so.
WL's pet does not scale after level 40, and thus the class struggles to improve to the same extent the other classes do.

[Dizkzak]

Marauder has better AoE. WL has better single target (and only that because of a single tactic).

News to me.

From what skills, tactics or behavior do we get this survivability?

Marauders get Hulking Brute (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8444). We get...?

No downside?

WL have half the utility the marauder does.
WL have a fraction of the CC.
WL have 2 PvE only tactics, 2 PvE only abilities, 1 PvP only ability, narrowing their options in their chosen field.
WL are dependent on a pet to employ 80% of their utility.
WL are forced to use 25% or 50% of their available tactic slots solely to support said pet (or to be competent without lion).
WL do, on average, 30% less damage on their skills. The lion's damage is meant to make up for this, but pet is too short lived and clumsy to reliably do so.
WL's pet does not scale after level 40, and thus the class struggles to improve to the same extent the other classes do.

That tactic is actually 160. When people use WarDB typo's as fact I tend to LOL.

Fetch is the lamest thing in the game. Really is. There are others like rift and magnet and TE though Fetch is the worst ability ever put in any mmo.

WL not scale? I play Order and um...what?!!!!?

WL is the best Mdps there is. Better than WE and WH and everyone else single target. WL is far better than the Maruader. I would never play a Marauder..ever cause it does not match up at all with WL.

[Arrelaine]

Instead of the pet's wounds being increased base, why not make the stats of the lion scale with the master's, a certain percent of it? Like Hunters and warlocks in WoW. Then if you wanted a tough lion, you'd have what most people stack as good survivability, or you can choose to stack a lot of strength for damage increase. That would probably work much better than a tactic, or just innately increasing their stats. Same thing should be done with SH, of course. Then TE and Fetch! being on about 30s timer would be good enough.

I still don't agree with WLs getting aoe stuff, unless the marauder's single target dps is buffed.

[Hashmalum]

That tactic is actually 160. When people use WarDB typo's as fact I tend to LOL.

Did I? I just linked to the skill. It was the tooltip, not me, who said it was anything but 160.

But please, do tell me where White Lions have higher survivability than marauders. No defensive tactics akin to Hulking Brute (be it 320, 160 or 80), no defensive skills beyond detaunt.

Fetch is the lamest thing in the game. Really is. There are others like rift and magnet and TE though Fetch is the worst ability ever put in any mmo.There's give and take. Been discussed to death in this thread. Put simply: Fetch is more versatile and more easily countered. It's excellent against bad teams & terribad vs. good ones.

WL not scale? I play Order and um...what?!!!!?The pet gets no benefits from renown ranks or equipment. Thus, as enemies improve, the WL stays the same. As time passes, the overall stats of people in T4 rise (ie. as they get RR & better equipment), and the pet stays where it is, which means it dies faster, hits less, does less damage.

80% of the WL utility is tied up in the pet. As time passes, this problem gets worse. When you're up against an enemy in full sent/darkpromise, regardless of how many RR you have or how you're geared, the lion will hit maybe 1/2 of the time (bad pet stats vs. good enemy stats), which means utility fails (fetch being an exception, as it works even if parried/blocked).

Instead of the pet's wounds being increased base, why not make the stats of the lion scale with the master's, a certain percent of it? Like Hunters and warlocks in WoW. Then if you wanted a tough lion, you'd have what most people stack as good survivability, or you can choose to stack a lot of strength for damage increase. That would probably work much better than a tactic, or just innately increasing their stats. Same thing should be done with SH, of course. Then TE and Fetch! being on about 30s timer would be good enough.

Issue with that is that the WL specs are based around the WL doing one thing, the pet doing another.

Axeman is WL doing damage, pet being durable. If it was just stat percentages, the 'defensive' lion would be getting lots of +strength from the master & minimal defensive skills.

Inverse for Guardian. (WL taking damage, Pet being offensive) - the WL probably stacks wounds & toughness in this case, which goes against the concept for the pet.

Still, this option is better than having things as they are now (pet being inorganic & frozen in development at 40).

[Darkpheonix]

I wasnt refering to the WL having better survivability. I was refering to the maurader having better survivability.

[gorefist]

keep on topic guys it seems some of you are trying to derail the thread or trying to troll keep on topic or dont post

[thylantyr]

I've been R40 for a while doing scenarios and ORvR, most
WL's are just fetch farmers, fetching people from great distances into their huge zerg, repeat a hundred times. This is
dumb.

* Decrease the fetch range
* Increase the cooldown

Implement, see how the game works a month later.

The WL whines aren't justified, this class has high DPS,
plus super run buff, plus 1800 damge morale 2 nuke,
good armor, pounce, what is your problem? /lol

BW, WL, and IB's are topping charts in scenario play,
damage and killing blows, as if these classes need more :rolleyes:

[Monkey Aids]

keep on topic guys it seems some of you are trying to derail the thread or trying to troll keep on topic or dont post

poop....







No just kidding :D Although, I really do not really have anything intelligent to say at the moment but on the bright side i do know where you can find some intelligent debate on this topic (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210250&page=13). They discuss the white lion marauder balancing issue quite extensively if you want to check it out.

[nazaroth]

I've been R40 for a while doing scenarios and ORvR, most
WL's are just fetch farmers, fetching people from great distances into their huge zerg, repeat a hundred times. This is
dumb.

* Decrease the fetch range
* Increase the cooldown

Implement, see how the game works a month later.

The WL whines aren't justified, this class has high DPS,
plus super run buff, plus 1800 damge morale 2 nuke,
good armor, pounce, what is your problem? /lol

BW, WL, and IB's are topping charts in scenario play,
damage and killing blows, as if these classes need more :rolleyes:


what did you pull them numbers out your back side?

Im not going to bother to argue with any point made as none of your points are even accurate

[Indasoth]

what did you pull them numbers out your back side?

Im not going to bother to argue with any point made as none of your points are even accurate

Everything in his post was pretty correct, except the 1,800 damage nuke, but I think he's referring to this:
http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9225

[RedAl]

Way to avoid the question dude.

Way to avoid reading the unlimited posts that contain your answers dude.

[Indasoth]

Way to avoid reading the unlimited posts that contain your answers dude.

Hi, 4 days ago! How are you?

[RedAl]

Hi, 4 days ago! How are you?

Hi Ms OP. I like pushing Troll stupidity back to the top of the list, it serves as a reminder to the idiot not to do it again because they will be called on it. Edit: Repeatedly.

Go hit your Easy button some more.

[Indasoth]

Hi Ms OP. I like pushing Troll stupidity back to the top of the list, it serves as a reminder to the idiot not to do it again because they will be called on it. Edit: Repeatedly.

Go hit your Easy button some more.

OMG! Called out on a video game forum by people that I will never know or meet! I just can't let that happen!

Stop.

[Thinkgore]

Thread has lived its course.

Lets try to keep future threads a little more constructive and a little less name calling. I won't be inciting any infractions this time. Lets just keep things a bit more civil.