Sorcs/BW`s damage is way too low!

[dornam]

It has been posted time and again.

There have been tests where Sorcs/BW's died from backlash while trying to kill an AFK tank.

Everyone with half decent gear can mitigrate 60% of all Sorc/BW damage without even trying hard.

Everyone with HALF an eye on resists and a simple resist buff will always mitigrate 75% of all Sorc/BW damage.

Sorcs also have the worst CC options of all classes in the game and thus the worst survivability.

After Mr Jakobs saying that WAR will not have massive nerfs to characters, then what would you call what has been happening especially to Sorcs?

[Crouton]

There have been tests where Sorcs/BW's died from backlash while trying to kill an AFK tank.




Couldn't find the Meltdown/Dharwind button?

[Korhadril]

Wrong, resists are too high and easily available, the damage both classes do when characters still haven't decked their resistances is still hellish. The damage is fine, but the resistances need to take a hit, or there should be a way to penetrate it the same way it's done with armour.

[Crouton]

Oh I agree about resists, I've been posting for the past few weeks that this game needs resists from gear capped at 26% like DAOC used to.

It's just that I couldn't help but make the snide remark about the OP :p

[Efertin]

Wrong, resists are too high and easily available, the damage both classes do when characters still haven't decked their resistances is still hellish. The damage is fine, but the resistances need to take a hit, or there should be a way to penetrate it the same way it's done with armour.

This. Willpower should be a resist-penetrating stat, resists from gear should be capped at 50-60% and resistance talismans shouldn't be so powerful. 12% or so mitigation from a talisman is just stupid.

[Xae]

I'm not so sure I agree with you....

http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bwareunderpoweredsf2.jpg

[Tae]

It has been posted time and again.

There have been tests where Sorcs/BW's died from backlash while trying to kill an AFK tank.

Everyone with half decent gear can mitigrate 60% of all Sorc/BW damage without even trying hard.

Everyone with HALF an eye on resists and a simple resist buff will always mitigrate 75% of all Sorc/BW damage.

Sorcs also have the worst CC options of all classes in the game and thus the worst survivability.

After Mr Jakobs saying that WAR will not have massive nerfs to characters, then what would you call what has been happening especially to Sorcs?

One of the devs has already said on here (can't find actual post, but you can try searching for it) that this issue has been passed onto the careers team for them to look at the amount of backlash damage done compared to damage output.

[Adaptation]

I'm not so sure I agree with you....

http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bwareunderpoweredsf2.jpg

What does that prove? 50 idiots standing in a clump vs 5 AoEers, and them dying? Honestly, all you gotta do in that situation is take 2 steps to the right.

[Khaelann]

Sorcs also have the worst CC options of all classes in the game and thus the worst survivability.

You just lost all credibility.

[Xae]

What does that prove? 50 idiots standing in a clump vs 5 AoEers, and them dying? Honestly, all you gotta do in that situation is take 2 steps to the right.

Well, you see most fights take place inside of keeps. Keeps Have pretty limited room. This goes double if a BW bothers to slot the +50% radius tactic for rain of Fire.

[Adaptation]

You just lost all credibility.

He is probably talking about one of our CCs, our root, that breaks/doesn't work. I honestly think Sorc's CC is fine though, melee should be able to pwn us in melee range, we have disarm/stun/silence/lolroot, good enough.

[Alkirin]

We do have CC, but it is borderline laughable. It could do with some minor tweaking.

- The snare shouldn't be a 3s cast, and shouldn't require pre-dotting.
- The root should work.

I'd debate that all of our CC should be instant-cast. Shy of silence, they are less measures for crowd control as they are measures to save ourselves when caught in a pinch (particularly disarm and the snare). It is a far cry from anything game-breaking, and it increases survivability/utility without needlessly cranking our damage to compensate for other utility that we should already have.

Also, the entire DM mechanic needs to be rolled back to what it was originally - nothing about the base damage/coefficients needs to be changed at all.

[CorumSM]

We do have CC, but it is borderline laughable. It could do with some minor tweaking.

- The snare shouldn't be a 3s cast, and shouldn't require pre-dotting.
- The root should work.

I'd debate that all of our CC should be instant-cast. Shy of silence, they are less measures for crowd control as they are measures to save ourselves when caught in a pinch (particularly disarm and the snare). It is a far cry from anything game-breaking, and it increases survivability/utility without needlessly cranking our damage to compensate for other utility that we should already have.

Also, the entire DM mechanic needs to be rolled back to what it was originally - nothing about the base damage/coefficients needs to be changed at all.

How is your disarm a measure to save yourself in a pinch ? Being a 100ft range spell it seems more offensive than defensive to me.

Anyway yeh I agree with the OP to a certain extent.
The sort of damage I'm seeing from sorcs/bws these days they probably need bbacklash removed to compensate.

[Efertin]

How is your disarm a measure to save yourself in a pinch ? Being a 100ft range spell it seems more offensive than defensive to me.

Anyway yeh I agree with the OP to a certain extent.
The sort of damage I'm seeing from sorcs/bws these days they probably need bbacklash removed to compensate.

It is a one second cast, and you can use it to save someone else than yourself, too. It's extremely useful.

Removing Backlash wouldn't help. They'd still do absolutely crap damage against stacked resistances, and removing Backlash would mean that that they'd spare their healer(s) one GCD every 15 seconds. It's resistances needing a fix, not the classes themselves.

[NightShade]

He is probably talking about one of our CCs, our root, that breaks/doesn't work. I honestly think Sorc's CC is fine though, melee should be able to pwn us in melee range, we have disarm/stun/silence/lolroot, good enough.

You also have KBs which don't trigger immunity.

[Zzulu]

You also have KBs which don't trigger immunity.


No we don't. We used to, but they fixed that. And we need to equip a tactic for our knockbacks to work. And we need to crit. And we need to use spells from a certain tree.

It is great for keep sieges though, but you usually sacrifice your damage (since you knock people away from your channeled spell) when you use the KB tactic.

[NightShade]

No we don't. We used to, but they fixed that. And we need to equip a tactic for our knockbacks to work. And we need to crit. And we need to use spells from a certain tree.

It is great for keep sieges though, but you usually sacrifice your damage (since you knock people away from your channeled spell) when you use the KB tactic.

Yes you do. The KB procs from crits don't trigger Unstoppable. Critting is exceedingly easy for you, so that's hardly worth mentioning. And the spells needed are the spells you'd be using anyhow.

[Peto]

Bla bla bla bla. So they cap resists, you kill anything with couple clicks of a few buttons. What are they going to do next?

[colds]

Yes you do. The KB procs from crits don't trigger Unstoppable. Critting is exceedingly easy for you, so that's hardly worth mentioning. And the spells needed are the spells you'd be using anyhow.
Yes they do proc unstoppable, which also AT THE SAME TIME makes it so we cannot use both the disarm or our silence afterwards. And knocking back people out of the AOE is counterproductive, so you essentially gain some CC at the expense of damage.

But hey, you would know better, since your Witch Hunter uses Triumphant Blasting all the time and can magically transform into a level 40 Sorc... right?

[NightShade]

Yes they do proc unstoppable, which also AT THE SAME TIME makes it so we cannot use both the disarm or our silence afterwards.

But hey, you would know better, since your Witch Hunter uses Triumphant Blasting all the time and can magically transform into a level 40 Sorc... right?

I'm telling you, it doesn't proc Unstoppable. Perhaps it's supposed to, but in game, it doesn't. Sorcs chain kbs from their crits all the time from what I've seen and experienced.

I would know pretty well, actually, considering the fact that Sorcs are one of my priority targets as a WH.

[Efertin]

Yes they do proc unstoppable, which also AT THE SAME TIME makes it so we cannot use both the disarm or our silence afterwards. And knocking back people out of the AOE is counterproductive, so you essentially gain some CC at the expense of damage.

But hey, you would know better, since your Witch Hunter uses Triumphant Blasting all the time and can magically transform into a level 40 Sorc... right?

The thing is, knockbacks don't proc Unstoppable. They proc Immovable.

Unstoppable is for disarm/silence/knockdown/stun, immovable is for knockbacks and freedom is for roots.

No idea about Triumphant blasting proccing immovable, however.

[Weizen]

Yes you do. The KB procs from crits don't trigger Unstoppable. Critting is exceedingly easy for you, so that's hardly worth mentioning. And the spells needed are the spells you'd be using anyhow.

wrong, unless your aoe specced (boring as hell, sucks in 6vs6) you won't be using this tactic (and in grp play there are way better tactics, like tapping the dark, frozen fury, infernal gift, glorious carnage)

the only time the aoe tactic is good, is when you are defending a keep and kicking back the tanks that try to go up the stair. but you sacrifice your damage from it.

[dornam]

As was expected a lot of stupid answers here about our damage and our CC.

Sorcs damage is too low because of Resists and Backlash. I don't care WHY my damage is too low, that's for the devs to figure out BUT something is deeply wrong right now.

About our CC - where is the CC that saves us from certain doom when a 12000 HP Ironbreaker runs our way whom we do 200-500 damage a nuke?

Tell me please?

Our AoE Root breaks almost instantly.

Our Disarm is 2s cast and lasts 5s if it isn't purged - wow in 5s I can nuke 3 times for 1000 damage - big deal.

Our Knockback is a highly unreliable Tactic - it works if we Crit with an AoE spell - how stupid is that? A knockback that you can't turn on or off or simply use, but have a 35% (base) chance of proccing and then knocking people OUT OF OUR DAMAGE. Brilliant. Also it DOES GIVE IMMUNITY. Every Tank on your side will applaud you for uselessly giving out immunity. Useless except for an extreme suicide build with a 3 Sorc, 3 Healer group.

Our Snare requires the target to be cursed, is 2s cast timer on a BOLT (that needs travel time - wtf?!) and lasts 5s?! Useless.

Our Stun is our only saving grace (BW's have it too), a Rank 3 Morale so not really reliable to help you too.

So yes, Sorcs CC is worse than EVERY OTHER CLASSES CC and we certainly have the absolute lowest surviability of all classes, Dest or Order, in this whole game.

Are we the death dealing damage monsters we were designed for and advertised to be?

Not by a long long way!

[Zzulu]

Yes you do. The KB procs from crits don't trigger Unstoppable. Critting is exceedingly easy for you, so that's hardly worth mentioning. And the spells needed are the spells you'd be using anyhow.


Wrong. ;)

[genius loci]

I'd vote for Backlash/Explosion removal, not a damage buff (also there are still people who prefer other stats, especially since the RvR influence rewards came into account). I know they do less damage, but it's wrong to ask for more damage - just makes you run more from the spawn point (oh, it surely adds to one's e-peen length when he makes like 10 KBs in scenario, but he will also die 10 times, so his e-balls will be smaller too).

1. Our AoE Root breaks almost instantly.

2. Our Disarm is 2s cast and lasts 5s if it isn't purged - wow in 5s I can nuke 3 times for 1000 damage - big deal.1. As an Engineer I find it highly annoying too.

2. Nope, you can do it 2 times at most, since there is GCD after you cast the disarm thing. And hardly it will be for 1000 damage...

3. (not quoted) as a Sorceress I always felt as if I really made an impact on the battlefield. That is when I didn't die :D

[Heretofore]

You are doing it wrong.

Good players can deal loads of damage.

[Redurval]

Just as good AMs can still outlast WE popping on them without breaking a sweat.

[Sahrokh]

Couldn't find the Meltdown/Dharwind button?


In the post he refers to, a guy tried to kill and AFK Chosen, including using meltdown.

But even at 10% Dhar Wind / Combusion you still backlash, so in the end you die. Slowly but you die.



How is your disarm a measure to save yourself in a pinch ? Being a 100ft range spell it seems more offensive than defensive to me.


It's not, in fact AFAIK it disarms skills and not autoattack damage (which can be > 750 a hit for Order MDPS).



You also have KBs which don't trigger immunity


They DO trigger a KB immunity now.
One is a morale 4, that comes up in situations like long keep sieges (unlike other classes, morale builds up so slow for Sorc that we even have to use a tactic to make it up quicker. On my DoK I get to full morale in about 1/5 of the time it takes on my Sorc.
The "other" is kind of not used as it involves knocking people off our AoE, which is retarded at best. Even in keep defense it is only useful if you exploit LOS (something they might nerf sooner or later) and use it on the keep door.



Yes you do. The KB procs from crits don't trigger Unstoppable. Critting is exceedingly easy for you, so that's hardly worth mentioning. And the spells needed are the spells you'd be using anyhow.


We got patchnotes about it being added.



You are doing it wrong.

Good players can deal loads of damage


Hey, everyone else moved off the starter scenarios and now do ORvR, where killing counts, not some useless numbers. You and your "good players" still stuck there?

[Brindlefox]

I'm telling you, it doesn't proc Unstoppable. Perhaps it's supposed to, but in game, it doesn't. Sorcs chain kbs from their crits all the time from what I've seen and experienced.

I would know pretty well, actually, considering the fact that Sorcs are one of my priority targets as a WH.

Hey Michelangelo, I fight you all the time, and I can assure you that no decent soc waste one of their four tactic slots on triumpiant blasting. Except for a few situations (like under-defended keep ramps, bridges, or being chain fetched etc) the skill is horrible. 80% of soc damage comes from idiots standing (or good players being rooted) in our AOE, anything that knocks people out of our aoe is self-defeating. And it does trigger immunity from disarm which is much more important to use when MDPS start hammering on us.

Brindle

[Alkirin]

I'd vote for Backlash/Explosion removal, not a damage buff (also there are still people who prefer other stats, especially since the RvR influence rewards came into account). I know they do less damage, but it's wrong to ask for more damage - just makes you run more from the spawn point (oh, it surely adds to one's e-peen length when he makes like 10 KBs in scenario, but he will also die 10 times, so his e-balls will be smaller too).

1. As an Engineer I find it highly annoying too.

2. Nope, you can do it 2 times at most, since there is GCD after you cast the disarm thing. And hardly it will be for 1000 damage...

3. (not quoted) as a Sorceress I always felt as if I really made an impact on the battlefield. That is when I didn't die :D


More like this.

The point I am trying to get across is that the Sorc needs utility. They can't pile on more damage to make up for the lacking CC, They just need to make up for the lacking CC.

The the entire mechanic needs to rollback to what it originally was and our CC options need to be fixed. There will be less complaints about the damage we do when an omgwtfpwn burst isn't the only solution to save us when in a pinch.

The coefficients and base damage do not need to change. The extreme damage from the Sorc/BW is supposed to come from their mechanic, which is balanced by the Backlash (no problem with it being high, when the damage is high as well).

[NightShade]

Hey Michelangelo, I fight you all the time, and I can assure you that no decent soc waste one of their four tactic slots on triumpiant blasting. Except for a few situations (like under-defended keep ramps, bridges, or being chain fetched etc) the skill is horrible. 80% of soc damage comes from idiots standing (or good players being rooted) in our AOE, anything that knocks people out of our aoe is self-defeating. And it does trigger immunity from disarm which is much more important to use when MDPS start hammering on us.

Brindle

Seems like nearly every Sorc I encounter in ORvR and even some scenarios (Howling Gorge) has this tactic equipped. I believe the most common Sorc KBs come from Infernal Wave and Pit of Shades.

Whether it triggers immunity to disarm or not, I don't know, but multiple Sorcs defending a keep with multiple Pit of Shades up will chain KB with relative ease. Just the other day, in fact, I remember our entire group getting tossed around like ping-pong balls because of this. Aside from that, immunity timers are totally borked right now, so I don't know why this seems so improbable to accept, there's even a thread about it because it has Mythic stumped.

[Yuriel]

The main reason I see sorc/bw damage as being rather low right now is because of either unintended, or purposeful changes Mythic made in how resists factor into mitigation. Before 1.1 resists didn't factor into resisting critical damage. This meant that if you took 500 damage + 500 crit damage, and had 20% resistance, you would only mitigate 20% off the first 500, and the second 500 was totally unmitigated. The damage to your hp bar would be 900 damage from a crit. *Now* however, you resist both the normal and crit damage, and would take only 800 damage. In essense, resistance is now doubly effective against crits, and sorcs and BW rely on their critical hit damage bonuses to make their damage significant.

What Mythic should have done IMO is left the combustion and dark magic mechanics alone with the higher crit % and crit damage % bonuses, but fix the resistances so that they were able to properly mitigate that damage.

[DeathZer0]

The actual problem is how resistance is calculated. It's advantage gets exponentially bigger the more you have since the percentage gain in mitigation is linear.T
his means not only that a small amount of resistance is a lot more effective if you already have a lot, but also that the cap is too easy to reach and not enough tradeoffs have to be made.

Discussed this some more in this topic:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232781

With a change how resistance is calculated the mitigation cap can stay the same, it will just be a lot harder to achive.

[Khaelann]

About our CC - where is the CC that saves us from certain doom when a 12000 HP Ironbreaker runs our way whom we do 200-500 damage a nuke?

Tell me please?

Run in the opposite direction, problem solved. Both classes have the same running speed and the IB doesnt have any 100ft ranged abilities either. Really now, if you're going to bring 1vs1 into the table then I suggest you find another game. WAR is based on teamplay and the classes arent really balanced for 1vs1. Sorcs are one of the weakest 1vs1 classes alongside BWs due to their Combustion/Backlash mechanics, cast times and generally low mitigation.

If you want to 1vs1 and own, I suggest you roll a melee healer or a tank, preferrably one with self heals or other high mitigation skills.

If you however want to be one of the best defense/attack classes in Keep/Fortress sieges and mass RvR then I suggest you stay with your Sorc.

[NatashaK]

Stand next to each other and get AoE'd. Stand far apart and get witch elf'd.

[Ascent]

Couldn't find the Meltdown/Dharwind button?Seriously.

[Sinik]

Bright Wizards have plenty of cc. I assure you Sorcs are not even comparable to their mirror class. As far as dps goes I agree. Our Sorcs in guild claim that they hit around 200-300 on classes that are reasonably geared. This once again lies in the problem with the mmo trend of scaling melee classes far better than ranged.

Melee gets a new weapon? He demolishes anything in his path. Casters get a new weapon? oo few more points of intelligence.

[NightShade]

Our Sorcs in guild claim that they hit around 200-300 on classes that are reasonably geared.

Sorcs hit for double that, if not more, typically

[thegrifter]

I dont think those classes do too little of damage, i think other classes do too much.

[Sinik]

Sorcs hit for double that, if not more, typically

mdps hit for double that, typically. Anything outside of a full warband there are no lines so ranged are within melee range in 3-5 seconds.

So lets recap here. Melee have much higher dps than ranged. The tradeoff is "range" but ranged are denied that in almost every situation outside of scenarios (unless you envy shooting from keep walls that much). Ranged dps are subject to every los in the game while melee are prone to none.

So ranged should accept the fact that they are only useful in scenarios and extremely large scale rvr and melee should accept that they will dominate everything except very large scale rvr where they will sit and watch ranged shoot each other while reading a book.

The game could use a few changes for both sides. Sorcs in particular I think as they are absolutely inferior to the Bright Wizard and do not have the survivability that Engineers, Squig Herders, Magus, and Shadow Warriors do. Although I'd argue to a certain point about the Magus.

[NightShade]

mdps hit for double that, typically. Anything outside of a full warband there are no lines so ranged are within melee range in 3-5 seconds.

Double of 300 is 600, which is around what Sorcs typically hit for. Double of 600 is 1200, which is not what typical MDPS hit for - save for perhaps WE Slice crits. And Sorcs can hit for upward of 1k, as well.

So lets recap here. Melee have much higher dps than ranged.

And rightfully so, but what evidence do you have to support this other than your word?

The tradeoff is "range" but ranged are denied that in almost every situation outside of scenarios (unless you envy shooting from keep walls that much).

This is no fault of MDPS, this is the fault of RDPS not playing well and their team who aren't protecting them sufficiently.

Ranged dps are subject to every los in the game while melee are prone to none.

Save for all of the ground target AoEs they can put through ceilings and floors, as well as various walls they can shoot through. Furthermore, MDPS is plagued by the horrors of the terrible netcode and lag - ghosts, false appearance of characters, "You are out of range", etc. Not only that, MDPS is much more susceptible to the various, abundant forms of CC in the game, seeing as how we have to put ourselves in undesirable circumstances most of the time in order to reach a target.

So ranged should accept the fact that they are only useful in scenarios and extremely large scale rvr and melee should accept that they will dominate everything except very large scale rvr where they will sit and watch ranged shoot each other while reading a book.

Scenarios and large scale RvR... that pretty much covers 90% of the "PvP" in T4 on any decently populated server, so by all intents and purposes, it seems like they're in a pretty good spot, by your own admission. MDPS' issues in large scale RvR would likely be non-existent if CC weren't such a joke in this game.

[Arrelaine]

I can crit -maybe- for 2k, with full zealot buffs, pve. In pvp, with full zealot buffs, that crit is cut in half. Note that with zealot buff, I have 900 intelligence, with 830 wounds.

[Ayamo]

This is a troll post right?


Maybe their overal dps isn't gigantic compared to WL's/We's but a BW can burst you down so badly that you can cry your eyes out.

[genius loci]

Double of 300 is 600, which is around what Sorcs typically hit for. Double of 600 is 1200, which is not what typical MDPS hit for - save for perhaps WE Slice crits. And Sorcs can hit for upward of 1k, as well.With what? Their staff? Or 3 seconds cast spell? And after they have stacked Int to the point they die from everything.

[Zoricus]

What does that prove? 50 idiots standing in a clump vs 5 AoEers, and them dying? Honestly, all you gotta do in that situation is take 2 steps to the right.

still amazes me how many will just stand in one spot and NOT MOVE OUT OF THE AE. I will admit its tough when up in the lord room of keeps tho.

[Zoricus]

This is a troll post right?


Maybe their overal dps isn't gigantic compared to WL's/We's but a BW can burst you down so badly that you can cry your eyes out.

You playing the same game as the rest of us?

[Ayamo]

You playing the same game as the rest of us?


You mean us as in ''the rest of the BW's who are in denial?''

[dornam]

Sorcs still do fine (and BW's even better) in Scenarios hitting badly geared 35's.

HOWEVER in ALL Scenarios I played (not a lot) since the patch I was in league with Engineers and Squigs while Witchelves and White Lions often outdamaged me (I am Agony/Calamity so no useless AoE damage grinding).

So even with lower resists we are still not doing more damage than many other classes BUT still have a clunky mechanic (Dhar must be brought up and maintained at 100 in order for us doing damage on par with other classes) AND Backlash damage to ourselves!

This is not what the "Glass Cannon" is supposed to be!

So cap resists at 50%, let them scale more steeply (1600 resists should equal 50% mitigration) OR introduce Willpower as a pierce resist stat that amounts to roughly the same.

Also up our damage a bit (for instance let Int factor more heavily or do Crit chance back to 50%) OR give us more survivability.

In our alliance almost all the R40RR40+ Sorcs have stopped playing oRvR because as Tank/Squig/Healer/mdps you are far more useful against decently geared opponents (i.e. the norm nowadays).

[Frank Dudenstein]

Resists ARE retarded now .. they are what make Sorcs/BWs the Ultimate Kings of Noobstomping (oh how I wish I could wear that title) - against morons with no resists we look like gods and against geared-out teams we are less annoying than gnats.

Resists don't need to be "capped" lower ... it's the "hard-caps" in this game that are retarded to begin with.

The reason "diminishing returns" are the standard for strategy-based games is because they work.

Example (just pulling numbers out of my a$$ here)

0-400 = 1% resist for each 16.8 points invested (this is the current value all the way to 75%)
400-800 = 1% resist for each 33 points invested
800-1200 = 1% resist for each 50 points invested
1200+ = 1% resist for each 66 points invested

I don't know what numbers would actually be balanced (presumably Mythic has the data to determine this) but clearly you should gain less the more you stack rather than have some retarded hard cap.

[dornam]

You mean us as in ''the rest of the BW's who are in denial?''

Sorry, but if a BW "bursts you down" then you should do something to your resists.

I have 1100 Elemental Resist and 600 Corp, unbuffed. With my Selfbuff I add 350 to each while a Zealot/Shaman buff adds 300.

That means 1400 Elemental Resist which is 75% mitigration (if I get debuffed this sinks to 63% mitigration, still very good). No BW will "burst me down" - not even close. Their DoT's tick for like 90 damage and a fireball does 220 - crits are roughly 150%, 500 fireballs are oh so tragic when I have 7850 hits (I also have 850 Int and +12% Crit, so don't tell me anyone that I am "suffering other stats for such high resists").

In 1vs1 they usually kill me nevertheless if they too have good resists because they can stun me easily AND can disorient me AND can Silence me while I can only Silence them...

However who can burst me down with 2000+ crits are Shadow Warriors with their Acid Arrow and the tactic that resists are ignored (yay, why doesn't the Sorc have such a tactic) or White Lions with their armor ignoring strikes.

[Ayamo]

Sorry, but if a BW "bursts you down" then you should do something to your resists.



Nice flawed system, if you have to stack 1 stat just cause of 1 class. Lets stack 600 toughness so I can survive vs WL's and WH's?:)

Edit: Yes I'm aware that toughness works vs all classes, however, this is like wow all over again ''you can stack shadow res so we're fine''.

[dornam]

Nice flawed system, if you have to stack 1 stat just cause of 1 class. Lets stack 600 toughness so I can survive vs WL's and WH's?:)

Whoa, Ayamo, guess what, there are more classes than BW to do elemental damage and many endbosses in PvE too.

And if you wouldn't try to aim at contrariness for contrariness sake you would have realized that you can stack nice resists without really scarificing ANYTHING.

But I guess you are rather out making a idiot of yourselves than to admit that your gear sucks.

Get a mix of sentinel/darkpromise and the nice oRvR Influence Rewards and just two +160 res talismans and no BW will ever "burst you down" again on top of you easily stacking 900 Str/Willpower and 600'ish Toughness/Wounds.

[Kyrine]

Not to mention the simple fact that you have to sacrifice hardly anything at all to attain high resists. If it was actually a real sacrifice to, then perhaps it would be fine, but when someone can lose perhaps 80 strength (whatever primary desired stat) and gain 800 to every relevant resist for their side (the BS resist jewelry, for example)...theres something wrong there. It should not be that easy to get such high resists to the point that you essentially negate an entire class.

But in every other aspect of the class, I find that we are fine. In general I still put out excellent dps, outside of the times I run into someone with high resists (which for how easy it is to get, it seems as if very few people realize it). I personally only run into issues with WH if they can start off on a silence with me, and they damn well better be able to kill me in the next 10-15 seconds or they have no chance.

[dornam]

Nice for you. On Erengrad most people in oRvR or morning oRvR 1vs1 are excellently geared.

I had several duels with the top White Lion of our Server - well, let's say I find it a good fight if I can bring him below 95% health when he kills me :(

In oRvR I find myself sifting through enemy names in order to find one that I not already know to have very high resists.

I duo with a Squig Herder and he usually outdamages me with his quick shooting plink alone :(

In order to understand the magnitude one must realize that good tanks easily break 12000 Hitpoints and a blockrate of 25%!

Against such a target you need roughly 50 (!) casts to chew through his hitpoints which means 75 seconds.

Do you survive 75 seconds against anyone who hacks at you, do you???

[Kyrine]

Nice for you. On Erengrad most people in oRvR or morning oRvR 1vs1 are excellently geared.

I had several duels with the top White Lion of our Server - well, let's say I find it a good fight if I can bring him below 95% health when he kills me :(

In oRvR I find myself sifting through enemy names in order to find one that I not already know to have very high resists.

I duo with a Squig Herder and he usually outdamages me with his quick shooting plink alone :(

In order to understand the magnitude one must realize that good tanks easily break 12000 Hitpoints and a blockrate of 25%!

Against such a target you need roughly 50 (!) casts to chew through his hitpoints which means 75 seconds.

Do you survive 75 seconds against anyone who hacks at you, do you???

You obviously are not quite paying attention to what I am saying. Its simple--yes, people who stack high resists are just about impossible for us to kill. Flat out. The *only* issue we face is against people who stack high resists. Thats it. There are too many people out there complaining about the class in general, when that is our *only* real issue, and hopefully Mythic will resolve it in a satisfactorly manner. There are ways to do it that only affects Sorc/BW, and ways that would affect anyone who has issues with resist stacking.

[dornam]

I disagree with you here.

Our damage is too low even against people with baseline resists. Getting 40% mitigration is a no brainer today - most archieve it without even trying. So I say that is the baseline.

Mitigrating 40% of our damage means that we are in league with other dps classes, we do not outdamage them.

Even if Mythic will finally realize Resists are out of hand, I can hardly imagine them drilling down resists to, like, 27% maximum. I guess 40-50% will still be the rule, especially as the game evolves and more people get access to really good Jewlery and Talismans.

So there really is no reason that we have a very clunky mechanic attached to our damage. A Squigherder can do 300 dps consistantly without worriing about Dark Magic and Backlash. He can even do nice consistant damage on the run. A Shadow Warrior can easily outburst us with Acid Arrow + resist ignore tactic. These are only two examples.

So I ask, even with resists fixed - where is our speciality?

It still is not "glass cannon".

[Peto]

Also think about it from this point of view. Keep attack. Enemy casters lay down an AoE field, theres a lot of em. Resists cap at 25%. You get every attacker dead in seconds, some even in the first second.

Would make keep taking totally impossible or just about who has more aoe casters, which is just plain retarded.

Even with current resists in keep assaults my 10k hps whittle down very very fast. Even if i get some heals.

This game isnt about 1v1, you have to look at the bigger picture.

[dornam]

Ah, by "bigger picture" you mean in ONE very specific situation, namely blocking the inner ramp in keep sieges where attackers can not simply sidestep our damage, justifies for gimping a whole class in every other situation?

This game is as much about 1vs1 as it is about blocking a ramp!

A simple fix could be that only one AoE of a kind does damage in it's area, problem solved but Sorc class still horribly underpowered in 99% of all situations.

But a small hint to you: get 75% mitigration against Elemental and Corporeal damage - not really hard to attain with Zealot/Shaman buffs, and also get decent hitpoints, our main tank BO has 12.500 and full resists, not a problem at all, and you will realize that a normal AoE will do about 120 damage a tick to you, 300 on a crit.

"Whittling down fast" is another thing entirely.

[Marsares]

This is a troll post right?


Maybe their overal dps isn't gigantic compared to WL's/We's but a BW can burst you down so badly that you can cry your eyes out.

Not to mention that MDPS are typically single target, whilst Sorcs/BW are typically AOE.

[Frank Dudenstein]

Not only do resists need diminishing returns .. but stacked resists are just TOO AVAILABLE.
We were meant to do one thing - Damage. Any opponent (and I mean ANY) can stack resists and essentially *turn us off* at their whim. No other class suffers from this.

Anyone can't just *turn off* a Tanks survivablility. It requires one of a very few specialized proffesions/skills/setups.

Anyone can't just *turn off* an healer's healing. It requires specific skills that have short durations and can't be chained.

Anyone can't just *turn off* a physical damager's attacks. Only tanks can stack enough armor .. and even still they have weapon skill and all have armor penetration abilities.

Yet every single class can *turn us off* and it doesn't even require a single skill or spec. A single trip to the auction house and a few minutes of farming will do.

So yes .. we can blow up noobs. Great. Was that the niche we were supposed to fill? 'Cause I didn't see that in the game manual (I looked).

[Fiale]

I don't think they need a nerf or a buff really, sorcs and bw's just need backlash taken away so they do not damage themselves. Restrict how long you can stay at 100% some other way (timer maybe).

e.g. http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/2051/war2009011513005048vv4.jpg

the fight went on for a while as we were not really targeting each other at first, but when the sorc decided to have a go at me my life whittled down quite nicely until in 1 second I lost over 30% of my entire HP - 4114 damage in one second is borderline ok (as it was a spike) but in no way do I want to see Sorcs/BW increased beyond this.

I had 6160 hp and at the time 1207 spirit resists.

So no leave, tweak the mechanics a little, but other than that they seem to be sitting pretty nice.

[Iscra]

Actually it is quite opposite to topic, at least I can say it for the BW - damage is way too high!

Actual examples from combat log follow. Please note these are crits which are over the top. Resists are often debuffed by BW themselves and additionally by Engineers, extremely reducing mitigation, like from 47% to 22%.

AE damage (focused ticks, every second(?)) tick for up to 1618 !
-> Rain of Fire critically hits you for 1259 damage.(359 mitigated)
This is with 47% elemental resists, apparently debuffed. Anyway raw 1.6K damage for ranged ae damage every second - I find it too high

Single dd
-> Withering Heat critically hits you for 1158 damage (186 mitigated).
-> Choking Smoke critically hits you for 1084 damage. (158 mitigated)

Dots
-> Ignite critically hits you for 387 damage. (202 mitigated)
-> Detonate critically hits you for 660 damage. (347 mitigated)
-> Boiling Blood critically hits you for 344 damage. (55 mitigated)

********************************

Range damage with this proportions is too high.

I think the problem might be equipment scaling. This is definitely the INT bonus which makes this damage so high. I am not sure if such damage is intended.

Melee dps scales also with STR, but it doesnt get so high. Maybe because base ability damage is lower. While melee dps should be much higher than range it happens to be the opposite. Melee classes get obsolete this way.

[Redurval]

Yeah, I can post funny numbers without proof, too.
Besides....47% resist, lol.
Oh: WE(WH probably as well) e.g. might not have the same sustained DPS, but even more burst dmg (without stabbing themselves in the gut on every third attack)

[Ghostwind]

I think the problem might be equipment scaling. This is definitely the INT bonus which makes this damage so high. I am not sure if such damage is intended.

Melee dps scales also with STR, but it doesnt get so high. Maybe because base ability damage is lower. While melee dps should be much higher than range it happens to be the opposite. Melee classes get obsolete this way.

Actually I think you will find few Sorcs who have more than 900 Int. However, you will find a lot of WEs with more than 1000 Strength.

Equipment actually scales in a very bad way for casters. If a melee class gets a new weapon their DPS takes a jump. If a sorc gets a new staff his Int might increase a tad with a very modest increase in DPS. Also good gear comes with very high resist values. Sorcs have no way to lower this resist meaning sorcs actually gets worse and worse as people get better gear - even when the sorc themselves get better gear.

[dornam]

I don't think they need a nerf or a buff really...

I had 6160 hp and at the time 1207 spirit resists.

So no leave, tweak the mechanics a little, but other than that they seem to be sitting pretty nice.

Fiale, please, get real.

Over the time of 16s the Sorc hits you for 6001 damage. A Zealot can single target heal roughly TWICE that damage in the same time.

Also he critted a whooping SIX TIMES out of 8 spells - really really lucky!

6160 HP also is abysmal - I have, with normal buffs, 1301 Elemental Resist, 7870 Wounds and 890 Int.

If you had get ANY healing, you would have easily survived.

So you deduct that Sorcs are fine, just because you got killed once by a Sorc when you got no healing and he got really lucky with his crits.

A little bit stupid, don't you think?

[dornam]

Actually it is quite opposite to topic, at least I can say it for the BW - damage is way too high!....

Single dd
-> Withering Heat critically hits you for 1158 damage (186 mitigated).
-> Choking Smoke critically hits you for 1084 damage. (158 mitigated)

.... Melee classes get obsolete this way.

Iscra, please, allow me:

LOL LOOOOOOOOOOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.

Ugh, now I feel better.

OK, one advice: GET RESISTS!

Your Resists are abysmal. Getting 60% resists is super easy, guess what:

Withering Heat critically hits you for 537 damage (807 mitigated).

THAT is what Sorcs/BW's see every day.

Our main tank Black Orc has 12500 Hits. He also has (with buffs) 75% Elemental Resists. Then add Hold the Line with 50% damage mitigration alone.

NOW DO THE MATH:

Withering Heat critically hits you for 168 damage (504 mitigated). (which is 50% of 1344 and then 75% Resists)

OHHH YES, I see, Melee are going to be obsolete this way.

[Fiale]

x2 post..........

[Fiale]

Fiale, please, get real.

Over the time of 16s the Sorc hits you for 6001 damage. A Zealot can single target heal roughly TWICE that damage in the same time.

Also he critted a whooping SIX TIMES out of 8 spells - really really lucky!

6160 HP also is abysmal - I have, with normal buffs, 1301 Elemental Resist, 7870 Wounds and 890 Int.

If you had get ANY healing, you would have easily survived.

So you deduct that Sorcs are fine, just because you got killed once by a Sorc when you got no healing and he got really lucky with his crits.

A little bit stupid, don't you think?

If your going to quote me at least have the decency to quote the whole text and not just bits that suit you.

The sorc did 1/3 my hp in one second - even if I had your HP it would be a third of my life gone in one second.

Sorcs damage is fine, as is BW - the problem they have is against tanks as they have the luxury of having armour against melee and stacking resists against casters wheras the rest of us have to decided a balance between resists/wounds/toughness and just have to suck up the fact against melee our armour means nothing.

As I said, sorcs/BW may need tweaking, but their damage does not need to be increased.

[Zzulu]

It certainly does

We are supposed to be the hardest hitting RDPS class in the game. We take huge chunks of damage to deal that kind of damage from range.

Right now I deal approximately the same kind of damage as squig herders, a class without a self-damaging mechanic and with a lot more defense options than me.

I think the only sorcs who claim to be fine are the ones in the very best endgame gear with tons of extra +crit and supportive team members who babysit them in scenarios.

At the core though, without the very best gear and RR, the sorc is a joke on the battlefield. Even with the greatest gear, the other RDPS careers scale better with the damage than the sorc does.

[dornam]

If your going to quote me at least have the decency to quote the whole text and not just bits that suit you.

The sorc did 1/3 my hp in one second - even if I had your HP it would be a third of my life gone in one second.

Sorcs damage is fine, as is BW - the problem they have is against tanks as they have the luxury of having armour against melee and stacking resists against casters wheras the rest of us have to decided a balance between resists/wounds/toughness and just have to suck up the fact against melee our armour means nothing.

As I said, sorcs/BW may need tweaking, but their damage does not need to be increased.

No - Sorc/BW damage is NOT fine just because you got 2000 damage from 2 HoR ticks and a Dot tick where two out of three were crits (75% Crit chance is NOT what we have every day).

With the resists you are running and the low HP's I guess you are wearing mostly green non set items and bad jewlery. You are SUPPOSED to get wasted with that kind of crap gear.

If you had decent gear and were running in a group these 2000 damage would have been LESS THAN 1100 instead - in that way we would need 7 times that to kill you with 75% crits - not likely at all!

[Fiale]

No - Sorc/BW damage is NOT fine just because you got 2000 damage from 2 HoR ticks and a Dot tick where two out of three were crits (75% Crit chance is NOT what we have every day).

With the resists you are running and the low HP's I guess you are wearing mostly green non set items and bad jewlery. You are SUPPOSED to get wasted with that kind of crap gear.

If you had decent gear and were running in a group these 2000 damage would have been LESS THAN 1100 instead - in that way we would need 7 times that to kill you with 75% crits - not likely at all!

I have full anih and 390 toughness - over 6k health, and around 1000k spir resists - don't kid your self your gimped damage wise as your not. All the sorcs/bw need is tweaking as I originally said. What this game does not need is even more damage.

[NatashaK]

I think sorcs are fine. People can stack resists but I can stack m.crit. And they do have to give something up. It's not a 1v1 class. You have to be at max dark magic to hit hard. You give up the single target dps of a squig herder for some good AoEs.

[Chavr]

I think Sorc/BW damage is too high. Baseline damage is fine, it's the increased crit rates that are troubling. I've been hit by 4 crits in a row for 1k+ each from a sorc before. Add to that the dots and AE's flying around and you just die too fast. I don't think this is solely limited to sorc/bw though. Magus/eng do too much damage as well, heck pretty much every class does too much damage. The entire game needs to be slowed down some so fighting is more about personal ability and less about focus firing and running back to the fight.

[Kyrine]

I think Sorc/BW damage is too high. Baseline damage is fine, it's the increased crit rates that are troubling. I've been hit by 4 crits in a row for 1k+ each from a sorc before. Add to that the dots and AE's flying around and you just die too fast. I don't think this is solely limited to sorc/bw though. Magus/eng do too much damage as well, heck pretty much every class does too much damage. The entire game needs to be slowed down some so fighting is more about personal ability and less about focus firing and running back to the fight.


The issue isnt with people who don't stack resists. We do hit them extremely hard. People who don't stack resists will typically go down in 10-15 seconds at the most unless they are getting chain healed. The issue is the ease of which resists are gained...and what it does to the damage. People have to sacrifice very little to make our high damage go to 100-150 nukes with 400 crits. THAT is the problem we are talking about. We are virtually worthless on anyone who stacks resists.

On that note, I do somewhat agree that our damage on people who don't stack resists tends to be pretty ridiculously high...but at this stage in the game and the ease of resist stacking, thats mostly their fault.

[dornam]

I have full anih and 390 toughness - over 6k health, and around 1000k spir resists - don't kid your self your gimped damage wise as your not. All the sorcs/bw need is tweaking as I originally said. What this game does not need is even more damage.

So funny - you did 3307 (AoE-)damage to him until he hit you for 2000 in a lucky burst when his 12s DoT ticked the same second that his Morale 3 landed and the other DoT critted along with his Insta DD critting as well (so the damage was done in 1.5s rather than 1s).

Thats NOT the rule.

If that is what I would experience every day, I wouldn't complain.

Get a group, get a resistbuff and heals and a 1500 dps burst is absolutely nothing you must worry about.

BUT he could have done 2250 damage to himself if he had BAD LUCK in just that same timeframe from backlashes.

So stop tolling here.

[Fiale]

So funny - you did 3307 (AoE-)damage to him until he hit you for 2000 in a lucky burst when his 12s DoT ticked the same second that his Morale 3 landed and the other DoT critted along with his Insta DD critting as well (so the damage was done in 1.5s rather than 1s).

Thats NOT the rule.

If that is what I would experience every day, I wouldn't complain.

Get a group, get a resistbuff and heals and a 1500 dps burst is absolutely nothing you must worry about.

BUT he could have done 2250 damage to himself if he had BAD LUCK in just that same timeframe from backlashes.

So stop tolling here.


Numerous sorcs in this thread seem to think your damage is fine - so maybe you should PM them for tips ?

[Methra]

Im refusing to single out or respond to the ignorant posts. All of u who actually have first hand expirence with the class will know where im coming from so JUST IGNORE the ignorant and let the devs figure out who knows whats what and whos just crying when they read.

I have between 1005 and 1100 int depending on gear. I hit similarly geared opponents for 40-60% of my damage because of mitigation due to resists. It is an impossibility for me to kill many classes 1v1 even if they just stand there and let me( last night boozer, a well known wp on my server and i were checking it out and doing some research for funs sake. if i completly use all my debuffs/dmg (free casting with no fear of interruptions or free from taking dmg, which never happens in reality) and do complete ap dump to nothing, hes still at +75% life, he has full ap, and with 1/2 hots be up 2 full health. This tells me theres some tweaking to be done. Im not feeling sorc love.

The lack of effective disables, a broken root,no viable escapes, moral based stun, kb based on critting and enemys huge damage mitagation really make us kinda a after thought class right now, not having debuffs to lower enemys resists or ignore them sux too. To those who dont agree u obviously dont play or are as familiar with the class.

Now im not saying theres not alot of good stuff about the class and a good base and foundation to work with, just that theres clearly some stuff that needs to be addressed that does not seem fair or balenced at the moment. i am pretty sure thats what a mojority of the other posters here were trying to say. were not looking to have a i win button, we just want to have more of a feeling we actually have a chance and a purpose.



Edit: some form of dmg sheild like a preist from wow may be slick as en escape. or maby ull think of better sulutions. im sure u guys will find the "right" answers in time. untill then ill just have fun with what i got or play my other toons when im frustrated.

[Ayamo]

Your damage is more than fine, resist stacking isn't.


There is a reason that Bw's/sorcs (and engineers:rolleyes:) top dps lists (no, dps list=not balance, but dps list=still dps), and thats because not everyone is 40, and not everyone is decked in 1800 res yet.

[Methra]

so what ur saying is right now we often top dps lists because not everyone is geared and 40, but as they become more so with better resists our dmg will go down because of resist stacking. that is in fact true.As well as a lil argumentative, but if u read ull see in the way i put things i left that possibility clearly open and was simply showing a case in point. my main point was to show the current synergy between my full dmg output vs the current resists often available and worn.

[Awe]

People stack resists for good reason.

It's because if they don't, it would be pointless playing any melee class and trying to get past the Sorc wall in RvR. You are not supposed to stand back nuking everyone down at will, it's a team game and ranged dps has to be lower in order for melee dps to be viable.

Simple as that.

[Helinin Overextended]

There are 2 problems with BW and Soc.

1) Resist stacking

2) Backlash mechanic

Remove Resist stacking, aka cap, they do great dmg again. But at the expense of the other classes, mostly MDPS. And what we get? Another round of Nerf BW and Socs threads again.

Remove Blacklash mechanic, its as good as removing the soul of the BW, Soc, class. (Imagine it as Tanks are given Medium amour ONLY instead of Heavy). The 2 classes are built on this idea. They will not get Crits as usual. They will end up having Dmg like a Magus.

So which one BWs/Socs want?

[Kyrine]

People stack resists for good reason.

It's because if they don't, it would be pointless playing any melee class and trying to get past the Sorc wall in RvR. You are not supposed to stand back nuking everyone down at will, it's a team game and ranged dps has to be lower in order for melee dps to be viable.

Simple as that.


No, the difference is supposed to be in survivability. Not in damage dealt. Our survivability is where I am comfortable with if resists were not as much of an issue as they are now. And further compounding it, we are not arguing that high resists need to be gone. The argument is that high resists are far too easily obtained. If someone wants to sacrifice half of their dps to reach 75% resist to me, then fine, do it. I really don't care since my group will more than make up for my lack on that opponent. The issue is that you *don't* have to sacrifice really ANYTHING to get to 75% resist. THAT is the problem.

[Xae]

No, the difference is supposed to be in survivability. Not in damage dealt. Our survivability is where I am comfortable with if resists were not as much of an issue as they are now. And further compounding it, we are not arguing that high resists need to be gone. The argument is that high resists are far too easily obtained. If someone wants to sacrifice half of their dps to reach 75% resist to me, then fine, do it. I really don't care since my group will more than make up for my lack on that opponent. The issue is that you *don't* have to sacrifice really ANYTHING to get to 75% resist. THAT is the problem.

Yes, you do.

Oh sure, a couple classes can go 2/2/2 Annihilator/Sentinel/Dark Promise gear and cap one resist. But no class can cap 2 resists with out making major sacrifices. I don't even think you can cap all 3.

[Kyrine]

Yes, you do.

Oh sure, a couple classes can go 2/2/2 Annihilator/Sentinel/Dark Promise gear and cap one resist. But no class can cap 2 resists with out making major sacrifices. I don't even think you can cap all 3.

No. Several people I play with frequently run 2/2 for sets, and along with some other jewelry they can easily cap 2 resists. Why would anyone bother capping 3? There is no reason to. You only need to cap elemental/corp if you are destro, and spiritual/corp if you are order.

Simple example: A black orc in my guild runs at 1800 corporeal, 1500 elemental, still keeps high melee defenses AND sits at 9.5k hp w/o warcry wounds buff. NO spells at all touch him, and melee still can't.

Another: When I switch out for my resists I sit around 1300/1400, 6.5k hp and about 900 int.

Tell me where the "major" sacrifice is. I lost perhaps 75 int (hardly noticeable damage difference), and at most 500-750 hp (one or two hits by any melee) to trivialize any elemental and corporeal damage.

[Ayamo]

so what ur saying is right now we often top dps lists because not everyone is geared and 40, but as they become more so with better resists our dmg will go down because of resist stacking. that is in fact true.As well as a lil argumentative, but if u read ull see in the way i put things i left that possibility clearly open and was simply showing a case in point. my main point was to show the current synergy between my full dmg output vs the current resists often available and worn.


You mean like my damage output if I try to hit a full armor/toughness geared tank?


If resist stacking gets changed, I can see sorcs/bw's 2-3 shotting even the whole server again.

[dornam]

Numerous sorcs in this thread seem to think your damage is fine - so maybe you should PM them for tips ?

Numerous people have no clue. And I know what the tips of these Sorcs would be:

Do Scens where you can hit a nice selection of Level 35's with crap resists.

OR

Never mind the damage you do and generally have no clue and be content happily balsting away despite the fact that you do crap damage.

Even Mythic Community Managers aknowledged that it's NOT ok to hit Tanks with 12000+ hits for 300 damage and do 750 to yourself.

Basically you complain that a Sorc wiped you because he got really lucky, was single target maximum damage specced while you did "only" about half his damage but as AoE....

Get real!

[dornam]

You mean like my damage output if I try to hit a full armor/toughness geared tank?


If resist stacking gets changed, I can see sorcs/bw's 2-3 shotting even the whole server again.

Utter rubbish!

With 50% resists our damage is like 300 dps. mdps like White Lion/WH/WE/Marauder can do 600 dps easily.

But oh yes, the world will fall apart if Resists are changed.

[azrael109]

Anyone who think its "fair" that a BW or Sorc who goes all out on a tank should kill themself must be joking.

At the moment BWs/Sorcs is the laughingstock on both realms (at least where I have my characters) and we try to skip bringing them along cause they just dont pull their own weight.

[Sephire]

Utter rubbish!

With 50% resists our damage is like 300 dps. mdps like White Lion/WH/WE/Marauder can do 600 dps easily.

But oh yes, the world will fall apart if Resists are changed.

Excellent. That's just how it should be. MDPS should trash RDPS dps because they have to be in melee range, whilst you can attack from 100 yards away.

This game already has insane damage from ranged attacks.

[Zzulu]

uh, we also take 750dmg every third spell, which is our penalty for doing good damage at range. Right now though we can only do moderate damage at range, which makes the backlashing completely unfair

[dornam]

Excellent. That's just how it should be. MDPS should trash RDPS dps because they have to be in melee range, whilst you can attack from 100 yards away.

This game already has insane damage from ranged attacks.

Lets do the math:

We do 300 dps against a 50% Resist target. We also do 750 damage to ourself every 4.5 seconds, that is roughly 150 dps to ourself. I do not count all the disrupts/blocks/parries we encounter (nothing beats 0 damage to the enemy and 750 to ourselves).

This game is about outpressuring the opponents healers.

So we have a net 150 dps that we do to our opponents.

That is less than most classes auto-attack damage that we DON'T GET EITHER (except in melee range - LOL).

So now lets factor in the current situation: 75% resists

Our dps now drops to roughly 200 while we still do 150 to ourselves.

We are now a 50 dps class. Factor in disrupts/parries/blocks and we are a negative dps class as several tests have shown!

So please, shut the f**k up about our damage being as it should be. And no, capping resists at 50% will not do either if everyone can archieve 50% without breaking a sweat (4 Anni + 2 Sentinel gives already 40% resists to our main damage without factoring in any talismans/jewlery/buffs).

[Ayamo]

Ah,

So because you do damage to yourself, your dps lowers with 150 2.


I can see the logic in that. No wait.

edit: 50 dps, and yet bw's/sorcs are above 200k all the time= (


You sure are in that game for quite some seconds.

Second edit: in before ''lol your gear sucks'', YES, my gear sucks, so does that of the other 90% of warhammer tier 4.

[dornam]

Ah,

So because you do damage to yourself, your dps lowers with 150 2.


I can see the logic in that. No wait.

edit: 50 dps, and yet bw's/sorcs are above 200k all the time= (


You sure are in that game for quite some seconds.

Repeat after me:

This game is about outpressuring the opponents HEALERS.

If I do 300 dps to the opponent but 150 dps to our group, then the opponents healers have 150 dps MORE to heal than our groups healers.

That is NOT what will get anything killed.

Hope I could clarify it enough for even you to understand.

Edit:
Oh your gear sucks and so does 90% of all people. Hilarious, priceless - simply advice: grow up before you come and post here.

[Ayamo]

Repeat after me:

This game is about outpressuring the opponents HEALERS.

If I do 300 dps to the opponent but 150 dps to our group, then the opponents healers have 150 dps MORE to heal than our groups healers.

That is NOT what will get anything killed.

Hope I could clarify it enough for even you to understand.

Okay, let me clarify it so even your lame selfpitty might get overwritten.


A bw or sorcs can with some lucky crit spree (and yes, 35% crit+the chance to get crit=easy crit spam) can easily nuke down 3-4k of my hp in a mere 3-10 seconds. Thats already 300-1000 dps

My pure healing gear is now slotted for (only) 800 ele res, which should still migrate quite a bit, but the example I gave still happens all the time

And as I said, yes my gear isn't top notch, but I'm sure lots of people are in the same position. Bw's and sorcs still top everything for a reason.

[Ayamo]

Repeat after me:


Edit:
Oh your gear sucks and so does 90% of all people. Hilarious, priceless - simply advice: grow up before you come and post here.


Grow up?

Oh dear, your selfpity even turns out in flaming because you can't stand the truth.

Edit: you are allowed to complain where there is either lvl 40 only sc's/rvr, or a gear check, but even then do I see way more toughness/wounds slotting than res.

[dornam]

What do they top?

Tell me.

Do they top killing Level 35's with 20% resists who are too new to T4 RvR to leave a Pit of Shades/Rain of Fire?

Is that what you set as basis for class balance?

You have 800 Ele Resist, with Zealot buff it's 1050, get two Ele +180 Talismans for 1410 Res which means 75% mitigration.

Then please show me the screenshot where a BW does 3k in 3s to you (news alert: 4k in 10s is 400dps, not exactly great damage).

Furthermore show me the screenshot where a BW did 6k in 6s, actually endangering you. Then toss your 2 hots on you and wait, chances are, over time, with you having 700+ Willpower and thus good disrupt rate, he will do more damage to himself than to you and your HoT's and groupheal will easily mitigrate the rest.

In other words: L2P

[dornam]

Grow up?

Oh dear, your selfpity even turns out in flaming because you can't stand the truth.

The "truth" - like 90% of all people in T4 have crap gear and bad resists?

Is that "the truth according to Ayamo"?

"Grow up" is the softest of terms I can come up with against people who troll a legitimate thread, which brings up a legitimate topic and PROOVES it with numbers and actual math and spew things like "90% of all people have crap resists", or "300 dps is more than enough for a glass cannon that does 150 dps to themselves on top".

[Ayamo]

What do they top?

Tell me.

Do they top killing Level 35's with 20% resists who are too new to T4 RvR to leave a Pit of Shades/Rain of Fire?

Is that what you set as basis for class balance?

You have 800 Ele Resist, with Zealot buff it's 1050, get two Ele +180 Talismans for 1410 Res which means 75% mitigration.

Then please show me the screenshot where a BW does 3k in 3s to you (news alert: 4k in 10s is 400dps, not exactly great damage).

Furthermore show me the screenshot where a BW did 6k in 6s, actually endangering you. Then toss your 2 hots on you and wait, chances are, over time, with you having 700+ Willpower and thus good disrupt rate, he will do more damage to himself than to you and your HoT's and groupheal will easily mitigrate the rest.

In other words: L2P

The fact that you think that people who are fairly new to tier 4 are automatcily bad players shows that your elitism is in the way:rolleyes:

400 dps isn't that high, nor is 80-100 dps if I'm hitting a tank as dok.

I will make the screenshot, whenever I'm online again,

And put your elitism where it should be, at a dark spot, a sorc complaining that he can't dps, and comparing gear issues to skill issues, isn't worth to tell anyone to l2p.

So basicly, cry moar.

[Ayamo]

The "truth" - like 90% of all people in T4 have crap gear and bad resists?

Is that "the truth according to Ayamo"?

"Grow up" is the softest of terms I can come up with against people who troll a legitimate thread, which brings up a legitimate topic and PROOVES it with numbers and actual math and spew things like "90% of all people have crap resists", or "300 dps is more than enough for a glass cannon that does 150 dps to themselves on top".


So where are your hard prooves?

Screenshots of you getting lots of migration, which would mean every idiot has like 1800 res?

I can bring screenshots of sorcs/bw's (bw's more often) topping dps non stop, does that mean, actually, lots of people don't stack rez?

I also checked the AH lately for elemental res, to bad, elemental was usualy the lowest stat res wise, nice goin.

[dornam]

....
I will make the screenshot, whenever I'm online again,
....

Fine, I am waiting for your 1500 (-4500 mitigrated) Screenshots.

[dornam]

So where are your hard prooves?

Screenshots of you getting lots of migration, which would mean every idiot has like 1800 res?

I can bring screenshots of sorcs/bw's (bw's more often) topping dps non stop, does that mean, actually, lots of people don't stack rez?

I also checked the AH lately for elemental res, to bad, elemental was usualy the lowest stat res wise, nice goin.

Ayamo, I do oRvR every evening.

On Erengrad I can easily list you 50+ Names FROM MEMORY that I do no longer target because it's useless. Basically everyone from the top guilds runs 75% SPirit Resists and Sorcs have no good Corp Spells except for Knives which is an AoE high in the Dest tree.

If you can't get +180 Res Talismans, you should change your guild. In our guild we drown in useless Set gear thanks to Mythics idiot drop code (hello 4 Witchelf Set pieces when noone in the group is a WE). These go to our salvager and he makes Talisman fromt hem, good, cheap +180 res Talisman that never hit the AH because in our guild everyone stacks them to get 75% mitigration and thus completely negate a whole class.

So please, if you like to play casually and have mediocre gear and can't get a good group/wb, then don't deduct from this that a class is fine - that is more than immature.

[Xae]

No. Several people I play with frequently run 2/2 for sets, and along with some other jewelry they can easily cap 2 resists. Why would anyone bother capping 3? There is no reason to. You only need to cap elemental/corp if you are destro, and spiritual/corp if you are order.

Simple example: A black orc in my guild runs at 1800 corporeal, 1500 elemental, still keeps high melee defenses AND sits at 9.5k hp w/o warcry wounds buff. NO spells at all touch him, and melee still can't.

Another: When I switch out for my resists I sit around 1300/1400, 6.5k hp and about 900 int.

Tell me where the "major" sacrifice is. I lost perhaps 75 int (hardly noticeable damage difference), and at most 500-750 hp (one or two hits by any melee) to trivialize any elemental and corporeal damage.

Lets see some profile links please.

[NatashaK]

If your goal is to get kills, you need to be assisting. If your goal is to overwhelm their healers with damage, you have to be AoEing. And you do need to crit. Crit weapon, crit cape, crit from renown, crit from dark promise, and full dark magic. (This isn't "easy" to get, but neither is 1500+ on 2 resists.)

[Kyrine]

Lets see some profile links please.


Seeing as realm war blows for showing accurate profiles, I will simply list the gear. Also, I meant 3/3 anni/sent rather than 2/2.

Anni:

Helm, chest, gloves

Sent:

Shoulders, belt, boots

Charmcloak of Undoing

Amethyst of the Warden
3 Halls jewelry

Bloodfist Witchstaff

2 160 corp tali
5 19 wounds

This leaves me with 934 int, 6550 wounds, 1432 elemental, 1120 corp. I lost 2 tali, 60 wounds and 15 int (from using halls jewelry rather than 20/20s). But I gained virtual immunity to BW and a lot of engineer abilities.

Add into the fact that I will virtually always have a resist buff from a shaman or chosen, and that throws it up another 200-400 (depending on which class).

For the little that I sacrificed, I gained A LOT.

[delavey]

So where are your hard prooves?

Screenshots of you getting lots of migration, which would mean every idiot has like 1800 res?

I can bring screenshots of sorcs/bw's (bw's more often) topping dps non stop, does that mean, actually, lots of people don't stack rez?

I also checked the AH lately for elemental res, to bad, elemental was usualy the lowest stat res wise, nice goin.

plz show how dumb and incompetent u are and confirm that the damage i do is fine
plz say that resist stack to the current point is working good
http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aquatic111us8.jpg

[delavey]

Excellent. That's just how it should be. MDPS should trash RDPS dps because they have to be in melee range, whilst you can attack from 100 yards away.

This game already has insane damage from ranged attacks.

lol
lol
lol

if u can bring me down IF u manage to get to me

then

I should be able to burn u down WHILE ure getting to me

can I?

[Iscra]

Wanted to continue the discussion but it seems to become a trolling thread with many "lol lol lol" posts.

Some people argue everyone has 75%. Most people I asked have 20-30% resists, which is exactly what Mythic says about resists. PLus you conveniently forget about strong resist debuffs, maybe you should learn your class.

Anyway raw damage done by ranged dps is too high as I already have posted. 1000-1500 crits every second from range is too much dps against current hp people have. Range dps has higher sustained dps and of course also burst dps. Plus range advantage, so its much easier to apply that dps. I am pretty sure quite soon that damage will be normalized.

[Ghostwind]

Wanted to continue the discussion but it seems to become a trolling thread with many "lol lol lol" posts.

Some people argue everyone has 75%. Most people I asked have 20-30% resists, which is exactly what Mythic says about resists. PLus you conveniently forget about strong resist debuffs, maybe you should learn your class.

Anyway raw damage done by ranged dps is too high as I already have posted. 1000-1500 crits every second from range is too much dps against current hp people have. Range dps has higher sustained dps and of course also burst dps. Plus range advantage, so its much easier to apply that dps. I am pretty sure quite soon that damage will be normalized.

Sorcs have no resist debuff. :(

I wouldn't say the BW resist debuff is all that strong either. Resist buffs are much stronger.

[delavey]

Most people I asked have 20-30% resists,


oO :shock:

[Ghostwind]

Wanted to continue the discussion but it seems to become a trolling thread with many "lol lol lol" posts.

Some people argue everyone has 75%. Most people I asked have 20-30% resists, which is exactly what Mythic says about resists. PLus you conveniently forget about strong resist debuffs, maybe you should learn your class.

Anyway raw damage done by ranged dps is too high as I already have posted. 1000-1500 crits every second from range is too much dps against current hp people have. Range dps has higher sustained dps and of course also burst dps. Plus range advantage, so its much easier to apply that dps. I am pretty sure quite soon that damage will be normalized.

Nobody has 20-30% resist with resist buffs applied. Solo maybe some classes with crap gear could have 20-30%.

[Glayween]

First off, let me say that I'm not saying whether Sorcs and BWs need or need not buff. My view on the game is relatively limited, but my personal opinion is that if anything is changed, they should start with decreasing the damage they do to themselves.

I would however like to confront those who claim that you get resistances for free and you can literally max them out without sacrificing anything else. At least from what I have seen, all stats on an item add up to a total value. Take these items for example:

Bladed Amulet of Hatred (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=901638)
Vanguard Batter Ring (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701813)

The first one gives +354 Resistance Points +17 Attribute Points, the second one gives +168 Resistance Points +42 Attribute Points. So, please, don't tell you do NOT sacrifice anything to get high resistances. Every point of something on an item means it will have less of something else. From the example we may calculate (with a small error due to the level difference) that 1 Attribute Point equals 7.5 Resistance Points. If you check this for other equipment you will find similar values.

I will not go deep into metagame discussion, everybody has his choice what to be protected from. But from design point of view, specialized defense should be more effective than general defense, i.e. the first ring should protect more against a Sorc, because it will protect less against anyone else.

[frogs99]

Glayween - I'm not saying you are wrong (but I'm not saying you are right either).

I have a different question. From a sorc point of view - does it matter how much a class gives up to stack resists?

To put it another way - say a class gives up a bunch of other stats to get enough resists to really decrease our damage. So, we can't hardly hurt them, but they won't have as much wounds, or hit as hard. Does that matter from the sorc viewpoint because since if we can't really hurt them we can't really kill them regardless of what they did or didn't give up?

We are very squishy and if we can't hurt them, we can't kill them. In return they may take a little longer to kill us, but can still do so. Our only real hope if a high resist char has his sights set on is is to try and kite, try and get away or hope our team takes him down.

Ok - other classes can kill them more easily if they give up other things to stack resists against the sorc. If that is the case, then the point of bringing a sorc along is??

[Kyrine]

First off, let me say that I'm not saying whether Sorcs and BWs need or need not buff. My view on the game is relatively limited, but my personal opinion is that if anything is changed, they should start with decreasing the damage they do to themselves.

I would however like to confront those who claim that you get resistances for free and you can literally max them out without sacrificing anything else. At least from what I have seen, all stats on an item add up to a total value. Take these items for example:

Bladed Amulet of Hatred (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=901638)
Vanguard Batter Ring (http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701813)

The first one gives +354 Resistance Points +17 Attribute Points, the second one gives +168 Resistance Points +42 Attribute Points. So, please, don't tell you do NOT sacrifice anything to get high resistances. Every point of something on an item means it will have less of something else. From the example we may calculate (with a small error due to the level difference) that 1 Attribute Point equals 7.5 Resistance Points. If you check this for other equipment you will find similar values.

I will not go deep into metagame discussion, everybody has his choice what to be protected from. But from design point of view, specialized defense should be more effective than general defense, i.e. the first ring should protect more against a Sorc, because it will protect less against anyone else.

The point that is being made is that VERY LITTLE is being sacrificed. Not that NOTHING is. There are some equipment pieces that have minimal stats with high resists and vice versa. The issue is that the stat differences between the two are *minimal*. Take, for instance, the simplest example between two jewelry pieces:

Jewelry 1: 20 wounds, 20 int, ~ 60 to all 3 resists.

Jewelry 2: 15 int, 8 intiative, ~ 190 corp, ~ 200 elemental

The differences between these two pieces? One has 5 more int, 20 more wounds, and 60 to two relevant resists (only 2 matter for each faction, the third is very unimportant...for example, spirit on destro does very little. It only affects archmages :rolleyes: and to a minor extent, witch hunters). The other has 8 more initiative (less being crit) and ~ 270 more total resists.

To show the differences in another way--lets say I switch out for 20/20 jewelry pieces instead of my Halls, and switch my corp talis to 19 wounds (looking at this from the stats/gear I posted on the previous page).

With 3 halls and 2 corp talis:

934 int, 6550 wounds, 1432 elemental, 1120 corp

Replacing the Halls with 20/20s and corp talis with 19 wounds:

949 int, 7530 wounds, ~ 830 elemental, ~ 380 corp

Thats a large mitigation difference for a minimal int gain, and 980 hp. The mitigation gained far outweighs the hp gain, which would only help with survivability against witch hunters, shadow warriors, white lions, and vengeance ironbreakers. Tanks are more of an annoyance than anything in scens, since I always run with a guild group or duo with a friend DoK. Those gains in resists make it far easier to heal me than what I lost in hp.