Possible healer revamp?

[thegrifter]

First off let me say that this post isn't meant to come off as some cry-baby complaint post. I wanted to bring attention to a Zealot/Rune Priest & Shaman/Archmage being much more 1 dimensional compared to the Warpriest/Disciple of Khaine in regards to healing, damage, and survivability.

It is somewhat frustrating to have no viable specs outside of healing to look forward to. I hesitate to compare Warhammer to other MMOs, but in AoC and WoW, healers could spec damage lines and be very capable at being able to hold their own in PvP/RvR. It seems to me that the cloth healers in this game really have 2 viable tactics in RvR when we are attacked, which is attempt to slow the dps against us (detaunt, shields, etc) and hope we live long enough for someone else to come and save us, or knockback -> stun -> run away.

Realistically having played both a Rune Priest and Zealot to lvl 40, I think that the only classes I can legitimately survive against in RvR are other Rune Priests, Zealots, Archmages Shaman, and (if we socket ourselves up for resists) Sorcerers/Bright Wizards, Engineers/Magus. To even have a chance against casters I had to get myself up to 1200+ corporal/elemental resists. Almost all classes have such tremendous burst damage and CC ability that the moment we are attacked we are totally defensive and fighting a losing battle.

My advice to any *new* player to Warhammer, that wanted to play a healer while focusing almost entirely on RvR, is to play a War Priest or a Disciple of Khaine. I think because 1) properly played those classes will always heal the most in scenarios and war parties, and 2) they have much higher survivability. The true advantage that War Priests and Disciples have are their AE heals that heal outside of their groups. These are single handedly the best spells for keep/fort defense/offense in the game and the other healing classes have nothing that can compete with them.

Mythic has done a lot to beef up all the damage classes but has mostly ignored the true healing classes. I'm not asking to be a 1v1 champion class, I'm just asking that we be giving greater survivability and revamped skill trees that reflect different trainings that will make better at whatever our classes choose to do.

[Sinik]

First off let me say that this post isn't meant to come off as some cry-baby complaint post. I wanted to bring attention to a Zealot/Rune Priest & Shaman/Archmage being much more 1 dimensional compared to the Warpriest/Disciple of Khaine in regards to healing, damage, and survivability.

It is somewhat frustrating to have no viable specs outside of healing to look forward to. I hesitate to compare Warhammer to other MMOs, but in AoC and WoW, healers could spec damage lines and be very capable at being able to hold their own in PvP/RvR. It seems to me that the cloth healers in this game really have 2 viable tactics in RvR when we are attacked, which is attempt to slow the dps against us (detaunt, shields, etc) and hope we live long enough for someone else to come and save us, or knockback -> stun -> run away.

Realistically having played both a Rune Priest and Zealot to lvl 40, I think that the only classes I can legitimately survive against in RvR are other Rune Priests, Zealots, Archmages Shaman, and (if we socket ourselves up for resists) Sorcerers/Bright Wizards, Engineers/Magus. To even have a chance against casters I had to get myself up to 1200+ corporal/elemental resists. Almost all classes have such tremendous burst damage and CC ability that the moment we are attacked we are totally defensive and fighting a losing battle.

My advice to any *new* player to Warhammer, that wanted to play a healer while focusing almost entirely on RvR, is to play a War Priest or a Disciple of Khaine. I think because 1) properly played those classes will always heal the most in scenarios and war parties, and 2) they have much higher survivability. The true advantage that War Priests and Disciples have are their AE heals that heal outside of their groups. These are single handedly the best spells for keep/fort defense/offense in the game and the other healing classes have nothing that can compete with them.

Mythic has done a lot to beef up all the damage classes but has mostly ignored the true healing classes. I'm not asking to be a 1v1 champion class, I'm just asking that we be giving greater survivability and revamped skill trees that reflect different trainings that will make better at whatever our classes choose to do.

Don't waste your time. Melees feel that reaching anyone should guarantee a kill and their epeens will not stand for fair gameplay. Warrior Priests and Disciples will claim that their heals don't really save anyone although they do. Duelists (all melees) will claim you would be overpowered if you can heal and do damage. Make a sandwich, I've learned it is a far more productive use of your time than arguing with the monarchy based mentality that is Warhammer melees.

You should never die to any ranged or casting class. Firstly seeing that you are on opposite sides of the line in general. Secondly not a single ranged dps or caster has any burst damage worth mentioning except perhaps Bright Wizards pre patch.

If anything, people wish to do even better than their current status. Why would anyone want to admit there is a problem and support something that would make them weaker? Look at it from this perspective and you will understand the reason for the useless nature of the human race.

[Noran]

My advice to any *new* player to Warhammer, that wanted to play a healer while focusing almost entirely on RvR, is to play a War Priest or a Disciple of Khaine. I think because 1) properly played those classes will always heal the most in scenarios and war parties, and 2) they have much higher survivability. The true advantage that War Priests and Disciples have are their AE heals that heal outside of their groups. These are single handedly the best spells for keep/fort defense/offense in the game and the other healing classes have nothing that can compete with them..

ERROR WP / DoK Cant AoE heal outside their own group... before next post I suggest you get your facts online before posting miss information and try to confuse ppls.

[mashpotatoe]

ERROR WP / DoK Cant AoE heal outside their own group... before next post I suggest you get your facts online before posting miss information and try to confuse ppls.

Not so.



Martyr's Blessing

I think that is what he is talking about.

[NightShade]

While I agree that the DoK/WP playstyle and mechanics are much more desirable than the playstyle/mechanics of the other healer archetypes, I think the other healer archetypes are much better at focus healing than a DoK or WP could ever be in the right hands. That being said, I would like to see the other healers have a similar type of... hybridization options that DoKs/WPs currently have, if only to make things fair... though such should only come at the cost of healing potency.

I also think a lot of healer issues are related to other factors, rather than their comparative capabilities with DoKs/WPs, such as WEs for Order healers, CC in general, and other bugs and imbalances which exist.

[Rozerick]

I have a WP and a Shaman.

The healing is totally different, on my Shaman I can keep the whole scenario alive.

On my WP I can keep the team up, no doubt, but saving someone that isn't on my team is a different story, all I can do is throw a HoT and hope that's enough, or select them as my defensive target for burst healing while I melee.

If you want to be a healer hybrid, go with WP/DoK.

If you want to be a straight out healer, go RP/Zealot/Shaman/Archmage(Don't reccomend this one).

I think the other healer archetypes are much better at focus healing than a DoK or WP could ever be in the right hands.

This man is correct.

[Marsares]

Last night on my alt in T1 the healer problem became totally evident to me. Granted that it was a snapshot in time on one single server, but in 11 scenarios Order once had a dedicated healer (a RP), all other times we had WP's who indeed preferred killing and then healing themselves over healing teammates. On Destro side, there were Shammies and Zealots all over the place, especially Shammies seem to be the new flavour of the month.

"Proper" healers need to be looked at, less and less people are playing them, especially the Order counter parts. Rune Priest is still very good, but AM has zilch survivability and I'm sure a Zealot ain't to sturdy either.

[NightShade]

and I'm sure a Zealot ain't to sturdy either.

It's pretty much universally accepted that AMs are currently the weakest healers in the game right now, in terms of overall performance... though they can still be quite capable in some cases, I'd still say the need a buff in the survivability department, at least in T4.

As for Zealots, they may not be sturdy, but they have a few tricks up their sleeve, one of the most noteworthy being Winds of Insanity (in its new improved form) which is really annoying for any MDPS trying to beat on them.

[Ayamo]

I'd happily trade in my dps as dok for zealots survival, even rerolled 1 myself for pure rvr purpose.

[Sinik]

I have a WP and a Shaman.

The healing is totally different, on my Shaman I can keep the whole scenario alive.

On my WP I can keep the team up, no doubt, but saving someone that isn't on my team is a different story, all I can do is throw a HoT and hope that's enough, or select them as my defensive target for burst healing while I melee.

If you want to be a healer hybrid, go with WP/DoK.

If you want to be a straight out healer, go RP/Zealot/Shaman/Archmage(Don't reccomend this one).



This man is correct.

So you keep an entire scenario alive as a Shaman do you?

Lets call a needle a needle and not a sword shall we?

[Khaelann]

ERROR WP / DoK Cant AoE heal outside their own group... before next post I suggest you get your facts online before posting miss information and try to confuse ppls.

Martyrs Blessing/Khaines Refreshment. I suggest you learn the skills before posting.

Granted, they're not really strong or anything but they do heal outside your own group.

[chemicalpoet]

All R-healers in T4, RP being the closest to the exception here, have a huge problem staying alive when engaged with anyone besides another healer in RvR, not just the Archmage.

Also, to they guy saying that AM can't perform, you're delusional. They are one of the better actual healers, in terms of healing capability, in the game.

I sure hope they do something with healers, because they SUCK HARD now, and I won't be running my 40 zeal for anything other than guildie dungeon runs 'til then.

The effect has already hit though. I rolled a squiggy the other day and I only saw 4 healers from level 1 to level 14. So, maybe the incentive to fix healers may happen, considering they are being rooted out systematically by tier, or maybe they just don't care. Who's to say?

[Ayamo]

Not so.



Martyr's Blessing (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8266)

I think that is what he is talking about.

Good power for keep raids, piss poor in sc's if you play backline healer.

[Litholen]

Also, to they guy saying that AM can't perform, you're delusional. They are one of the better actual healers, in terms of healing capability, in the game.
Actually, I tend to agree that our healing ability is a bit much. We ought to have more damage transfer healing spells and fewer big heals, to meet the "RDPS/Healer Hybrid" idea that Mythic taunted for as long. In an ideal world, every time a RP/Zealot does 2/0 heal/DPS, an AM/Shaman should do 1/1 heal/DPS and a WP/DoK should do 1/1 heal/DPS.

Regarding survivability, many argue that the AM's difficulties come down to the WE being overpowered. I prefer to subscribe to the view that the reason we're the squishiest healer at endgame is an issue with our class, rather than other people's. Alas, we have no self-resurrecting toughness buff. Maybe that'd make it all more bearable :)

I sure hope they do something with healers, because they SUCK HARD now, and I won't be running my 40 zeal for anything other than guildie dungeon runs 'til then.
Already reached that point with my AM. I do hope they do something about ranged healer survivability but, since their response to AM complaints was a global nerf to bubbles, I suspect they're preferring to go with "stick" rather than "carrot". We'll like what we have, or they'll nerf us some more.

-L

[thegrifter]

ERROR WP / DoK Cant AoE heal outside their own group... before next post I suggest you get your facts online before posting miss information and try to confuse ppls.I'd like to thank the other posters for helping you get your facts straight. :rolleyes:

Martyrs Blessing/Khaines Refreshment. I suggest you learn the skills before posting.

Granted, they're not really strong or anything but they do heal outside your own group. I'm not sure how strong they are, but the last city siege I was involved in, Order had us pinned in our spawn point and when I targeted various Order members many of them had 3-4 Martyr Blessing on them, that according to mousing over them, said that they were ticking for 505. Obviously I don't have a DoK/WP so I don't know how high they can get properly geared, but the fact that they can hit everyone within a 30ft radius makes the spell invaluable, especially in forts and keeps when people are bunched together. I can only speculate how effective these abilities are inside a keep/fort when you have 10+ WP/DoK using these abilities for a group of people bunched up in a room.

I think people might be glossing over the point of RvR of this game. Being able to heal everyone is better then being able to heal a group or single target. I'm full spec'd into alchemy so that I can be a great single target healer, but honestly being single target in scenarios and RvR is somewhat counter productive in my point of view do to the amount of AE damage (especially playing against Engineers and BW) that each side is capable of. With most RvR in this game being large groups against each other, the best healers are the WP/DoK.

I won't be running my 40 zeal for anything other than guildie dungeon runs 'til then.That is kind of how I am beginning to feel playing my zealot, and how I felt on my RP. We have such horrible survivability when you figure that every class we fight has knockdowns, silences, armor debuffs, healing debuffs, etc... I feel that if Mythic wants us to really have no offensive capabilities then they should put us in plate or medium armor so we could at least have a better chance for survival.


Please don't misconstrue my post into thinking that I want WP & DoK's nerfed. I don't. I would just like to see the other healers brought up to par with many of the other classes in this game instead of being free renown to any damage dealer out there.

[Khaelann]

I'm not sure how strong they are, but the last city siege I was involved in, Order had us pinned in our spawn point and when I targeted various Order members many of them had 3-4 Martyr Blessing on them, that according to mousing over them, said that they were ticking for 505. Obviously I don't have a DoK/WP so I don't know how high they can get properly geared, but the fact that they can hit everyone within a 30ft radius makes the spell invaluable, especially in forts and keeps when people are bunched together. I can only speculate how effective these abilities are inside a keep/fort when you have 10+ WP/DoK using these abilities for a group of people bunched up in a room.

It would be great if it scaled well with Willpower. To have it tick 500 you need to have around 1k Willpower. It would also be great if it actually healed everyone in the area. Sadly, both of the skills are affected by the AoE cap which is 9 or 10 persons. Whats even more sad, is that it can hit someone at full HP and count it towards the AoE cap while another player who is not at full HP does not get the heal. So it is only good when everyone around you is taking damage and even only when you have really high Willpower. It also has a long cooldown and the heal is channeled so it pales in comparison to our group heals. Not to mention it is high in the DR tree and many DoKs/WPs prefer the melee healing.

Say those 10 DoKs/WPs are each in their own groups. They can output alot more healing in total by just spamming their group heals and this is at a 150ft radius. That is 10 groups getting more healing than what people would get from the Martyrs/Khaines casting. The only use I have found for it is to stand in the Tank wall and heal people around me, leeching RP from everyone. Other than that, my group heals are superior in every way.

[Iselin]

Imho, "range" in this game is overestimated when balancing classes. This is why WPs and DOKs are allowed to remain very good healers when DPS specced and ranged healers are not.

Ranged healers are forever typecast into healbot roles unless they only run with guildmates who tolerate their poor healing and mediocre DPS as an endearing excentricity.

We pay for having ranged abilities with poor survivability. That's the only penalty we need.

Why the heck should a WP have a 300%, a 150% and a 100% heal off damage--only one of which is not a core ability--and the DPS Shaman or AM not have a similar ability to heal well while damaging? A healer shouldn't need to nearly lose their identity and confuse everyone in a PUG WB if they choose to spec the DPS tree.

The needed change would be dead simple and, I'm told, was even this way at one point in Beta: Make Searing Touch (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9250) and Bunch o' Waaagh (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1903) lifetaps again and no one needs to know we're now incompetent healers... 'cause we wouldn't be.

[Beheth]

I think the current way the healers work is allright.

I have a zealot and a warrior priest. My zealot can heal way better than WP can. WP simply cannot save a person if attacked by 2-3 people, while zealot can.

Just look at your scenario healing numbers versus the damage numbers. Usually the top healers can do more healing than top damage dealers do damage (not always, but most of the time). So, I think it works as expected.

Do you know how hard it is to take down a healer?
First, you have to get through the enemies tanks and MDPS (most of the time, the attempt fails even before you get to the healer)
Then to take down the healer, others should be distracted by other stuff, if not, if there is another healer healing the healer that you are trying to attack, you will definitely fail.
And, usually as soon as you target a healer, several people come to protect, so you need to out burst their damage if you need to take the healer down.
Even if you take the healer down, you wouldn't live long after that, because you are probably almost dead by that time.

Consider that if healers are to be buffed, so that they can survive 50% better than currently they can, there will be almost no possibility to take down a healer.
It will then be a game where which side has the most healers wins.

[Rozerick]

So you keep an entire scenario alive as a Shaman do you?

Lets call a needle a needle and not a sword shall we?

I wasn't trying to claim I could keep everyone alive all the time, I'm exaggerating a bit, I was just trying to get the point across that my Shaman is just a better healer then my WP.

When people say WP/DoK heal a lot better then an RP/Zealot, it's just not true.

That's probably how it should be. I just read this too often "WP's and DoK's get big healing numbers, they are better healers with more survivability".

[Khaelann]

Why the heck should a WP have a 300%, a 150% and a 100% heal off damage--only one of which is not a core ability--

Actually, it is 350%, 100% and 50% unless you have a tactic slotted in which case it is 350%, 150% and 100%. All the skills are core abilities btw, the tactic on the other hand is midway the Debuff/Melee heal tree.

For a WP the skills would be Divine Assault, Divine Strike and Sigmars Radiance. DoK equivalents are Rend Soul, Consume Essence and Transfer Essence.

[Iselin]

Actually, it is 350%, 100% and 50% unless you have a tactic slotted in which case it is 350%, 150% and 100%. All the skills are core abilities btw, the tactic on the other hand is midway the Debuff/Melee heal tree.

For a WP the skills would be Divine Assault, Divine Strike and Sigmars Radiance. DoK equivalents are Rend Soul, Consume Essence and Transfer Essence.

Correct...my mistake. And they're some of the more creative abilities in the game that allow useful simultaneous damage and healing. It seems appropriate that any healer that has damage mastery trees have these types of abilities.

After we have them, we can then start talking about the right amount of healing % for balancing purposes... but having them is a must.

[Cirris]

The healing output needs to be tuned with the survivability.

As it stands now for the order of survivability and healing the WP and RP are sitting on top.

[Litholen]

The healing output needs to be tuned with the survivability.

As it stands now for the order of survivability and healing the WP and RP are sitting on top.
I'd say you're being less than generous to Disciples of Khaine in that assessment, who I'd peg as coming above the RP. But the thrust of your argument is correct - raw healing output should be balanced against survivability, the idea being that the numbers are tuned to the point that equally equipped and skilled AMs/Shamans match both the healing and DPS output of WPs/DoKs, and that RPs/Zealots outheal everyone. The time each class is expected to spend respawning should be accounted for in the tuning process.

-L

[Raynos]

First off let me say that this post isn't meant to come off as some cry-baby complaint post. I wanted to bring attention to a Zealot/Rune Priest & Shaman/Archmage being much more 1 dimensional compared to the Warpriest/Disciple of Khaine in regards to healing, damage, and survivability.

It is somewhat frustrating to have no viable specs outside of healing to look forward to. I hesitate to compare Warhammer to other MMOs, but in AoC and WoW, healers could spec damage lines and be very capable at being able to hold their own in PvP/RvR. It seems to me that the cloth healers in this game really have 2 viable tactics in RvR when we are attacked, which is attempt to slow the dps against us (detaunt, shields, etc) and hope we live long enough for someone else to come and save us, or knockback -> stun -> run away.

Realistically having played both a Rune Priest and Zealot to lvl 40, I think that the only classes I can legitimately survive against in RvR are other Rune Priests, Zealots, Archmages Shaman, and (if we socket ourselves up for resists) Sorcerers/Bright Wizards, Engineers/Magus. To even have a chance against casters I had to get myself up to 1200+ corporal/elemental resists. Almost all classes have such tremendous burst damage and CC ability that the moment we are attacked we are totally defensive and fighting a losing battle.

My advice to any *new* player to Warhammer, that wanted to play a healer while focusing almost entirely on RvR, is to play a War Priest or a Disciple of Khaine. I think because 1) properly played those classes will always heal the most in scenarios and war parties, and 2) they have much higher survivability. The true advantage that War Priests and Disciples have are their AE heals that heal outside of their groups. These are single handedly the best spells for keep/fort defense/offense in the game and the other healing classes have nothing that can compete with them.

Mythic has done a lot to beef up all the damage classes but has mostly ignored the true healing classes. I'm not asking to be a 1v1 champion class, I'm just asking that we be giving greater survivability and revamped skill trees that reflect different trainings that will make better at whatever our classes choose to do.

I hate to say it, but this post is more or less dead accurate.

Shamans/Zealots are just fodder for me. I particularly love it when a Shaman uses Eeeeek... 50/50 shot of doing White Lion's Job for them. Away from me... and right into my zerg.

Zealots have it a little better, but they're one trick ponies. Once there Knockback is used up, I'm on them and they gonna die in a hurry.

Healers need a few more panic buttons - a winning strat for me should not be suicide runs. If I can take out a healer before 2-3 Destros take out me... that's a serious problem.

[Noran]

Not so.



Martyr's Blessing (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8266)
I think that is what he is talking about.


Aww that Aint heal to use, Low base heal part, drains your full SE/RF bar, Channeled - thanks no literal use, Scaling with Willpower is nil.

I rather keep spamming my group aoe heal than that because in decent situation DoK / WP doesnt have to think even to heal n+1 ppls at the same time .. ill leave that to those who excell in it.

[Noran]

I'd happily trade in my dps as dok for zealots survival, even rerolled 1 myself for pure rvr purpose.

Excuse me What ? get decent gear and stop trying to impress ppls with Willpower. Dead healers dont heal, and With good gear that comes around 27rank (PvP set and ORvR epics) and forward from that You can literally laugh at any single DPS coming for even with 2x swords in hand, because If you die on 1on1 situation or even at 2:1 (both dps classes against you) then there is problem, that you dont know how to 'survive' (ill rather use that word than play).

DR spec and wounds/thoughness/str kit and boy or a girl you are ready to rock.

[Noran]

Martyrs Blessing/Khaines Refreshment. I suggest you learn the skills before posting.

Granted, they're not really strong or anything but they do heal outside your own group.

Simple Answer Who the damned fool uses em due they are sub-par heals in DoK/WP book of spell to use.

[Chakraa]

Simple Answer Who the damned fool uses em due they are sub-par heals in DoK/WP book of spell to use.


They use them to RP's by sitting in a pack and healing outside of your group.

[Noran]

I'd like to thank the other posters for helping you get your facts straight. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure how strong they are, but the last city siege I was involved in, Order had us pinned in our spawn point and when I targeted various Order members many of them had 3-4 Martyr Blessing on them, that according to mousing over them, said that they were ticking for 505. Obviously I don't have a DoK/WP so I don't know how high they can get properly geared, but the fact that they can hit everyone within a 30ft radius makes the spell invaluable, especially in forts and keeps when people are bunched together. I can only speculate how effective these abilities are inside a keep/fort when you have 10+ WP/DoK using these abilities for a group of people bunched up in a room.

I think people might be glossing over the point of RvR of this game. Being able to heal everyone is better then being able to heal a group or single target. I'm full spec'd into alchemy so that I can be a great single target healer, but honestly being single target in scenarios and RvR is somewhat counter productive in my point of view do to the amount of AE damage (especially playing against Engineers and BW) that each side is capable of. With most RvR in this game being large groups against each other, the best healers are the WP/DoK.

That is kind of how I am beginning to feel playing my zealot, and how I felt on my RP. We have such horrible survivability when you figure that every class we fight has knockdowns, silences, armor debuffs, healing debuffs, etc... I feel that if Mythic wants us to really have no offensive capabilities then they should put us in plate or medium armor so we could at least have a better chance for survival.


Please don't misconstrue my post into thinking that I want WP & DoK's nerfed. I don't. I would just like to see the other healers brought up to par with many of the other classes in this game instead of being free renown to any damage dealer out there.

If that DoK/WP 'Heal everyone and all' is stacking then it might have its uses, but as far it goes its simply amazingly crap-atic. I never had it since huh 35level or so, due it requires you to stand still and wait = aka channelled. I would rather see 4 doks/wps spammingtheir aoe heals when they are in diffrent groups because that more efficient, moveable and can heal your own arse decently.. atleast Last time I checked you cant tactic procs from channeled spells at all.

[Noran]

They use them to RP's by sitting in a pack and healing outside of your group.

aaa you mean on some ramdom punts that arent in your WB (keep sieges), because in FORT, Capital caps their aint anymore space for those .. well maybe in their side that is attacking.

[thegrifter]

Simple Answer Who the damned fool uses em due they are sub-par heals in DoK/WP book of spell to use.
I would imagine every single WP/DoK that wants to be a great healer.

Like I've said, I don't want to turn this into a WP/DoK hate thread, I think these classes have been balanced very effective in terms of healing or being able to do damage. But I think you are discounting Khaines Refreshment/Martyr's Blessing for RvR. Bring able to heal outside your own group is a fundamental advantage in Keeps and Forts. Plus I think you aren't taking into account books and chalices that have the high regens of Righteous Fury and Soul Essense. I'm sure that most WP/DoK will agree that now they have little trouble maintaining the pools required for them to cast their spells.

Generally speaking RP/AM/Zealots/Shaman were the top healers pre-1.1 patch. Now I see WP/DoK that will do 0 damage and heal for 300k+. When I was in the process of leveling my zealot in T3, I routinely saw war priests healing for 250+. That is pretty impressive at any level. I won't even begin to speculate the amount of renown they can make inside a keep or especially a fortress healing large groups of people.

It is more then being effective healers, it is about survivability and being able to train different lines of skills, all of which are currently lacking.

[Noran]

I would imagine every single WP/DoK that wants to be a great healer.

Like I've said, I don't want to turn this into a WP/DoK hate thread, I think these classes have been balanced very effective in terms of healing or being able to do damage. But I think you are discounting Khaines Refreshment/Martyr's Blessing for RvR. Bring able to heal outside your own group is a fundamental advantage in Keeps and Forts. Plus I think you aren't taking into account books and chalices that have the high regens of Righteous Fury and Soul Essense. I'm sure that most WP/DoK will agree that now they have little trouble maintaining the pools required for them to cast their spells.

Generally speaking RP/AM/Zealots/Shaman were the top healers pre-1.1 patch. Now I see WP/DoK that will do 0 damage and heal for 300k+. When I was in the process of leveling my zealot in T3, I routinely saw war priests healing for 250+. That is pretty impressive at any level. I won't even begin to speculate the amount of renown they can make inside a keep or especially a fortress healing large groups of people.

It is more then being effective healers, it is about survivability and being able to train different lines of skills, all of which are currently lacking.

Im just going to say that While using a Channeled spell we dont regen SE/RF even we have chalice/book in use - I can be wrong because I discredit and hate this kinda spells that make you one wonder puppy. Aka Use DoK/WP 'heal em all' reload SE/RF with sac/pray, twidle your thumps and recast 'heal em all'.

That kinda of gaming makes me so sick that it should be removed and replaced something that requires situtional thinking, reflexes, brain work to how to manage the most of your SE/RF pool before it runs dry.

Ofcourse I could have mentioned this in earlier post, but just didnt feel like it.

EDIT: several funny typo's =)

[Noran]

I would imagine every single WP/DoK that wants to be a great healer.

Like I've said, I don't want to turn this into a WP/DoK hate thread...
--snip--
Dont worry you arent =)

Generally speaking RP/AM/Zealots/Shaman were the top healers pre-1.1 patch. Now I see WP/DoK that will do 0 damage and heal for 300k+. When I was in the process of leveling my zealot in T3, I routinely saw war priests healing for 250+. That is pretty impressive at any level. I won't even begin to speculate the amount of renown they can make inside a keep or especially a fortress healing large groups of people.

It is more then being effective healers, it is about survivability and being able to train different lines of skills, all of which are currently lacking.Sorry that i forgot to respond to this 'general' talk because I should have.

Yeah you quite right there in numbers I have healed more on t3 and sometimes when I have been using 2x sword created numbers that somehow still amaze me that it was possible to do.

General consept of dok/wp going into full healing tree gives ous fairly alot of tricks to use ontop of your basic core ones. And mostly 95% of them are instant casts that affect full group what we are in. And If one isnt specced in healing we still have our core heals and several nasty (like dok has) tricks to somehow heal via melee or casting upon group member to heal others in our group.

When we slap chalice/book and full heal spec you get '' big pool of tricks and SE/RF pool to use it against fairly limited extra sources of AP that rest can get. Even we go full healing tree and use Great hammer or dual swords we have limited SE/RF pool with alot tricks to use and we regain SE/RF from melee tricks that deal damage. So with chalice/book and greatweapon dual swords our game play changes drastically and requires alot of work and more brain work to manage our skill use in next X seconds to maximise the heal and SE/RF gains and losses.

Survival of DoK/WP is immense if one simply stacks Wounds/thoughness with chalice/book and forgers the willpower because we have only one spell that scales greatly with it and its our 1sec cast 2cd Group AoE that bread and butter in all healing spamm rutines or cast lines. But the thing gets nastier when we try to use Greatweapon or dual swords gear wise I mean and still get the best out our healing meters =) there isnt just one right combo of stats to do this, giving up some wounds/thoughness and replacing it with Str, works miracles.
With this somewhat balanced g-weapon/dual swords stats we can push decent damage to, then we toss ous somewhat 30-50% our healing and we have pray upon that someone else in our group goes for Aoe healing. But maybe the problem raises its nasty head when we actually start dropping ppls like flies with extreme crit rows, everything that can procs at the right time. And still we are around half of our healing cababilities working at the same time.

Meh this turned out to be a long "ill toss few words" and so on.=)

[Rozerick]

I'm going to say this now, just because someone gets larger numbers then you, doesn't mean they did their job better.

It's all situational.

[Khaelann]

Simple Answer Who the damned fool uses em due they are sub-par heals in DoK/WP book of spell to use.

Me when forts are close to crashing and trying to heal anyone out of my party is nigh impossible. Khaine's Refreshment and watch the RP fly and your fellow defenders get healed :)

I will drop it at one point when I go for more Sac but I'm full DR atm so having it around is okay, especially for Renown Farming when solo <3

[Noran]

Me when forts are close to crashing and trying to heal anyone out of my party is nigh impossible. Khaine's Refreshment and watch the RP fly and your fellow defenders get healed :)

I will drop it at one point when I go for more Sac but I'm full DR atm so having it around is okay, especially for Renown Farming when solo <3

=) you made me laugh. and Yeap for renown farming that be actually darn good, but in WB with full of purpose and "Tactics drawn to chalk board" and one word command on TS to change positions (even to write your ally name from bird perspective:rolleyes:) and after 500 page manualsof 'how to play your class' and Theorycrafting where even a slipt second of 2 SE/RF makes Emourmous difference. oh well =) i assume you get the point =P

[thegrifter]

With much of the end RvR being large groups Keeps/Forts/Warbands, all healers will just generally group heal only. Especially in keeps and forts when everyone is compacted together. This is why I would recommend WP/DoK for new gamers.

[Noran]

With much of the end RvR being large groups Keeps/Forts/Warbands, all healers will just generally group heal only. Especially in keeps and forts when everyone is compacted together. This is why I would recommend WP/DoK for new gamers.

Im tempted to say other wise. Because DoK/WP is a good healer, but there is some obstackles there too. I might suggest to make AM/SHa RP/Zea as counter and see how things work at 19-21 level because there one gets some climpses how its going to be later on.

[DoctorTran]

You can easily gear yourself for survivability as a DoK/WP and still get pretty high numbers on the heal charts, although it will be primarily b/c you healed your own group.

A zealot can use a "HoT everyone" approach, much like a caster does a "DoT everyone" approach, and get highest healing done in a scenario easily. Preemptive healing but it's risky because you sacrifice wounds to get that power.

I don't mind being squishy, but Fetch and Terrible Embrace have to go. Biggest "I WIN" button I have seen in any game.

[Pulverize]

You can easily gear yourself for survivability as a DoK/WP and still get pretty high numbers on the heal charts, although it will be primarily b/c you healed your own group.

A zealot can use a "HoT everyone" approach, much like a caster does a "DoT everyone" approach, and get highest healing done in a scenario easily. Preemptive healing but it's risky because you sacrifice wounds to get that power.

I don't mind being squishy, but Fetch and Terrible Embrace have to go. Biggest "I WIN" button I have seen in any game.

First off lets clarify one thing, Fetch is overpowered, terrible embrace is fair and offers many escape options to the target where fetch really does not allow any given the pull range and ability to leap frog pull you miles from your group. But that is another story for another thread that has already been done 12 thousand times. The rest of my post is not necessarily directed at the above quote but more to the entire premise of this thread.

Although I have not leveled a healer on either side, I can speak from killing or trying to kill them as dps on both sides. I have to honestly say that I really can't see why a zeal or a RP would be complaining about survivability because in all honesty these two healers are freakin hard to bring down. I have a 40 mara and a 34 WE on destro side and I have a 32 WH on order side. Even with my 40 mara trying to bring down a RP alone is a serious task and usually ends in me being pummelled into the ground by an order assist train after a min or so of beating on the RP. I have often been in situations where 3 order dps are on one RP and it does not drop. Granted there may be a certain spec for the RP survivability because I will often come across a RP that drops much more easily then others but a good majority of them do not drop with ease at all. Possibly its just good players vs poor players? who knows. On the order side, trying to bring down a Zeal - lol ya might as well bring your whole party to help. Again possibly the calibre of player behind the toon but really I cant understand for the life of me how RP and Zeal can be complaining about survivability. From what I can sum up facing both sides the hardest to kill due to their survivability and healing capability are the RP and Zeal hands down. The next hardest to kill would be the shaman/WP and the easiest to kill would be the DoK/AM with the AM being the easiest of all (and no that is not a WE thing cause i find them easiest on my marauder too).

So considering the RP and Zeal have arguably the best single target healing in the game combined with the best survivability, I can't understand the point of this thread? is it because you want to do damage as well? So you want to have the best survivabilty, best single target healing and do good dmg? ya that is fair. lol You rolled a healing class - what did you expect? Next would you like to be able to wear heavy armor and carry a shield in your offhand?

[thylantyr]

First off let me say that this post isn't meant to come off as some cry-baby complaint post. I wanted to bring attention to a Zealot/Rune Priest & Shaman/Archmage being much more 1 dimensional compared to the Warpriest/Disciple of Khaine in regards to healing, damage, and survivability.

It is somewhat frustrating to have no viable specs outside of healing to look forward to. I hesitate to compare Warhammer to other MMOs, but in AoC and WoW, healers could spec damage lines and be very capable at being able to hold their own in PvP/RvR. It seems to me that the cloth healers in this game really have 2 viable tactics in RvR when we are attacked, which is attempt to slow the dps against us (detaunt, shields, etc) and hope we live long enough for someone else to come and save us, or knockback -> stun -> run away.

Realistically having played both a Rune Priest and Zealot to lvl 40, I think that the only classes I can legitimately survive against in RvR are other Rune Priests, Zealots, Archmages Shaman, and (if we socket ourselves up for resists) Sorcerers/Bright Wizards, Engineers/Magus. To even have a chance against casters I had to get myself up to 1200+ corporal/elemental resists. Almost all classes have such tremendous burst damage and CC ability that the moment we are attacked we are totally defensive and fighting a losing battle.

My advice to any *new* player to Warhammer, that wanted to play a healer while focusing almost entirely on RvR, is to play a War Priest or a Disciple of Khaine. I think because 1) properly played those classes will always heal the most in scenarios and war parties, and 2) they have much higher survivability. The true advantage that War Priests and Disciples have are their AE heals that heal outside of their groups. These are single handedly the best spells for keep/fort defense/offense in the game and the other healing classes have nothing that can compete with them.

Mythic has done a lot to beef up all the damage classes but has mostly ignored the true healing classes. I'm not asking to be a 1v1 champion class, I'm just asking that we be giving greater survivability and revamped skill trees that reflect different trainings that will make better at whatever our classes choose to do.

If I had my way, I'd revamp the healing system with no instant
burst heals, implement only heals over time heals with cast
times and create a new mechanic where players can only
accept x amout of heals over time base on their class.

Existing healers would fall under the MDPS category and given
more offensive so the game is more WAR and less HEAL .. hammer. ;)

[Gorky]

I think many people are failing to understand the problem.

The problem is not healing per say its survivability and the fact that instant and 1 sec cast heals are better than 3 second heals for a single target in rvr.

In RvR, single healing blows.

The problem is not about how much healing can be done. The amount of healing is based on how much damage people take and how well your team defends you in Scenarios. This can be very low or very high depending on the the group.

We should not base anything off just healing numbers in SC. Its not realistic. I once broke 415k healing out of 100's of scenarios. I have yet to do that again.

[thegrifter]

Although I have not leveled a healer on either side, I can speak from killing or trying to kill them as dps on both sides. I have to honestly say that I really can't see why a zeal or a RP would be complaining about survivability because in all honesty these two healers are freakin hard to bring down. I have a 40 mara and a 34 WE on destro side and I have a 32 WH on order side. Even with my 40 mara trying to bring down a RP alone is a serious task and usually ends in me being pummelled into the ground by an order assist train after a min or so of beating on the RP. I have often been in situations where 3 order dps are on one RP and it does not drop. Granted there may be a certain spec for the RP survivability because I will often come across a RP that drops much more easily then others but a good majority of them do not drop with ease at all. Possibly its just good players vs poor players? who knows. On the order side, trying to bring down a Zeal - lol ya might as well bring your whole party to help. Again possibly the calibre of player behind the toon but really I cant understand for the life of me how RP and Zeal can be complaining about survivability. From what I can sum up facing both sides the hardest to kill due to their survivability and healing capability are the RP and Zeal hands down. The next hardest to kill would be the shaman/WP and the easiest to kill would be the DoK/AM with the AM being the easiest of all (and no that is not a WE thing cause i find them easiest on my marauder too).

I would have to say a Marauder doesn't have the damage output that a White Lion has, at least on my Rune Priest I had a longer life expectancy against Marauders them then my Zealot has against White Lions. I would have to say this is due more to class mechanics such as fetch vs terrible embrace, and almost every White Lion now chooses to use their pet instead of the Loner tactic, and every white lion uses Pounce to get in quick on the healers. With no cooldown on pounce, it makes it easy for a White Lion to stay on their target.

I'm not saying you are a bad player, I just think that your class isn't as effective at single target DPS that a White Lion is capable of. Now being able to AE is a different story...

[rain9441]

Correct me if i'm wrong here, but there are 3 scenarios here.

A) Either you can take out a healer single handedly.

B) You cannot take down a healer single handedly - but you shut them down and force them to focus all efforts on themselves.

C) You cannot take down a healer single handedly and barely graze their ability to heal themselves and their group.

If it is situation A, the healer would have been better replaced with another class, preferably DPS, that would be able to shut you down and kill you. Thus the healer is dead weight to the group.

If it is situation B, the healer would have been better replaced with another class, preferably DPS, that would be able to shut you down and kill you. Thus the healer is dead weight to the group.

If it is situation C, healers are a benefit to the group.

It's really a matter of opportunity costs in my opinion. Right now a healer that cannot withstand the pressure of a single enemy is worth less than a player who could not only withstand the pressure but put pressure back.