Healers are qutting

[Slizzy]

I don't know why, but half the healers I knew are quitting or already gone.

They say RvR is not fun as a healer because they get Focused and die in 2 seconds. I know white lions kill our healers in 3-5 seconds on average....

Mythic...save our healers!!

[Ghostwind]

There should be a lot of people around to protect the few healers that remain...

[Marsares]

There should be a lot of people around to protect the few healers that remain...

/quoted for truth.

But, yes, look at T1 and all Order seems to have is WP's and a handful of RP's. My heart skips a beat when I see an AM and I normally think: "Awww, be nice to him, he's probably new to the game and doesn't know about the AM.... yet!"

Shammy's seems to be Destro's new darling in T1 one though, you just can't put your foot down or there's a Shammy. :)

[Tiuwaz]

Am I the only who finds it ironic that the class of the OP can be held responsible for droves of order healers quitting?

[kaifus]

I don't know why, but half the healers I knew are quitting or already gone.

They say RvR is not fun as a healer because they get Focused and die in 2 seconds. I know white lions kill our healers in 3-5 seconds on average....

Mythic...save our healers!!


Under focus fire, any class is gonna die. But against White Lions and Witch Hunters, Healers should get as much wounds as they can, slot their detaunt tactics and spam the hell out of their AOE detaunt ability. And lastly, never turn your back and run. Stay facing them. You might not be able to beat them but you sure as hell can last a long time.

[Slizzy]

Am I the only who finds it ironic that the class of the OP can be held responsible for droves of order healers quitting?


What's your point?

I didn't say it was Destro healers only did I?

I'm simply pointing out an issue across the board that needs to be addressed.

Our healers get dropped by your WL just as fast, if not faster then a WE can kill an order healer.

[Slizzy]

Under focus fire, any class is gonna die. But against White Lions and Witch Hunters, Healers should get as much wounds as they can, slot their detaunt tactics and spam the hell out of their AOE detaunt ability. And lastly, never turn your back and run. Stay facing them. You might not be able to beat them but you sure as hell can last a long time.

LOL thanks for that pro tip.

Hopefully some HEALERS that don't know how to play will benefit from it.

[Arrelaine]

If people actually protected healers, like use their aoe disorients for them to get away, or use a KD, GUARD maybe (rarely do I ever see a guard on me, usually only in scenarios) or kill the one mdps on them. This is my biggest beef about playing a healer - other players.

I absolutely can not stand it when people are moaning about not getting heals when the healers are dead 80% of the fight because they want to do leet dps instead of winning. Also, if the healers are good, you should tell them. It really helps a lot to know that other people appreciate even getting heals at all. It's a lot more stressful, I know I don't sit there and laugh my rear off when I use my knockback on my healer compared to using the KB tactic on my sorc.

So, if people stepped up a little more, protected their healers, be more aware of their healers, and be patient with the healers, that would more than likely help a lot.

[Lauren Love]

Archmages and Shamans have no survivability.

Runepriests and Zealots have mastery trees focused around DPS, even though dubbed the "Pure healers".

Disciples of Khaine and Warrior Priests are much easier to play when you ignore your mechanic. "Oh, hi there Book/Chalice! Want to break my game mechanic with me?"

[chemicalpoet]

They quit (I did too) because healing, or their class (both, usually), are weak.

Why play a weak class that does no damage--hardly "hybrids" like they promised, can't survive in ORvR and would be better off as a RDPS in the first place? Yeup, there isn't a reason.

Personally, I didn't gear/renown out my zealot to be a rez-bot, but that's the way it is, and that is why he is on the shelf.

[chemicalpoet]

Under focus fire, any class is gonna die. But against White Lions and Witch Hunters, Healers should get as much wounds as they can, slot their detaunt tactics and spam the hell out of their AOE detaunt ability. And lastly, never turn your back and run. Stay facing them. You might not be able to beat them but you sure as hell can last a long time.

Even then the WL's disorient and WE's pure damage are still going to punch through your detaunts, potions and defensive actions.

WE's do a lot of damage, and the disorient mechanic is broken (it adds about 8 seconds on to any cast time.)

/shrug

[Litholen]

They say RvR is not fun as a healer because they get Focused and die in 2 seconds. I know white lions kill our healers in 3-5 seconds on average....
Takes extreme amounts of luck for a lone DPS to down any healer in less than 5 seconds - even WEs on AMs tend to need 7+ if the AM is remotely competent and not caught with his pants down (mid-cast, mid-cast-time-bug, no-AP). But indeed, RvR is no fun as a squishy healer come endgame, on either side. It's not the focus-firing that most healers I talk to find truly demoralising - everything dies under FF in this game. Rather, it's the lack of self-preservation abilities against a single opponent.

Our hard counter can consider us a guaranteed kill if we're away from the pack - unless the moon and stars and whatever gods you may or may not believe in line up against them. Few of us can say the same about the class we're meant to hard counter (the BOrk).

LOL thanks for that pro tip.

Hopefully some HEALERS that don't know how to play will benefit from it.
Nice. Arrogant, unhelpful, and really rather patronising. No healer gets to endgame without knowing the golden rule about standing ground and keeping directionality. Unless they've hired a PL service, or something similar, and not actually played the game to that point themselves. The assumption that any healer who gets taken down by the Romulan Gank Squad isn't aware of this bit of flotsam is possibly one of the things driving healers off the game - there's a difference between sitting pretty where you are, and being actively unpleasent and derisory about those who by necessity must play horribly underpowered classes to keep you there :) Don't insult the folks who give you easy renown.

I should point out that it's not strictly speaking always that clear-cut. Enfeebling strike hurts, but occasionally I'd rather run with it on, LA, a tick of FE, and DF if it's primed - normally if I've actually managed to hit with the punt, and want to keep out of range of the WE's spammable ranged snare, and know I can get to safety before she catches me. Granted, though, the general wisdom is to stand your ground and hope to last until help comes :)

Archmages and Shamans have no survivability.
And Mythic likes it that way. Global DPS increase, Healing Energy nerf, and a recent nerf to the only survival tool we have that the other clothies don't - our big bubble.

Waxing rhetoric about "Mythic needs to do something now or it's game over" isn't going to fix it, sadly. Mythic know how many healers log into each server every day, how long they play, where they play, and what Alts they then log into afterwards. Mythic can also infer their participation in any RvR due to death logs and renown changes, assuming they don't explicitly monitor RvR participation through alternative metrics.

Mythic know the problem's there. Poor Jess_Mythic made a real effort to compile a report based on feedback in the AM forum - but ultimately it's out of the hands of the community officers, and in the hands of developers and producers. And given their most recent change to the Archmage was a further nerf, as part of the global nerf to bubbles, it looks like the devs and producers think that - if anything - ranged healers are still too powerful.

I'd like to think that they will come to their senses and fix it, but the more I see lolFPSers posting their L2P tirades, insisting their free-renown targets are fine the way they are, the less I expect any positive changes to the classes. Since lolFPSers seem to make up an increasing majority of the player base, and ultimately it all comes down to monthly revenue from subscriptions.

-L

[Farshatok]

I'd like to think that they will come to their senses and fix it, but the more I see lolFPSers posting their L2P tirades, insisting their free-renown targets are fine the way they are, the less I expect any positive changes to the classes. Since lolFPSers seem to make up an increasing majority of the player base, and ultimately it all comes down to monthly revenue from subscriptions.

-L

I'd like to add some things. They're a little off-topic, but on the same area. Anyone remember the trolls in Troll Country that had a mean knockdown? That got removed due to complaints that people couldn't AoE grind them (unstoppable wasn't in the game yet).

ToK mechanics were changed and titles (some) are going to be given on a team base, rather than on single player achievements. The Psycho (10k Killing Blows), a title that I was looking forward to (in a long time), will be given for 10k RvR kills. While this means, it'll also be available to healers, they should have left some e-peen stuff in also.

I see a lot of people whining about dieing to "X" class all the time (especially mine) and all they want is something that makes them do that also. More CC, more disorients, more DPS

[golbleen]

I like how healers act like the ever-abused children of Warhammer. Why, it's not like three months ago, MDPS and tanks were getting their butts handed to them whenever they tried to do anything!

[Litholen]

I'd like to add some things. They're a little off-topic, but on the same area. Anyone remember the trolls in Troll Country that had a mean knockdown? That got removed due to complaints that people couldn't AoE grind them (unstoppable wasn't in the game yet).

ToK mechanics were changed and titles (some) are going to be given on a team base, rather than on single player achievements. The Psycho (10k Killing Blows), a title that I was looking forward to (in a long time), will be given for 10k RvR kills. While this means, it'll also be available to healers, they should have left some e-peen stuff in also.

I see a lot of people whining about dieing to "X" class all the time (especially mine) and all they want is something that makes them do that also. More CC, more disorients, more DPS

Interesting point, well-made. Would I be less despondent about the AM if I could spam damage-to-heal abilities like I do on my DoK? Of course - because then you feel like you're actively doing something, even when under attack. Would I still lose against a WE if Searing Touch (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9250) was still a life-tap, similar to Rend Soul (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9554)? Most likely, but the WE would smart from the encounter, and I'd feel like I'd done something more than simply spamming my heals and my "For Asuryan's sake, get this Druchii scum off me!" macro, in the vain hope of help arriving before I'm staring at the respawn counter.

Is it an issue of e-peen? Not so much - more, frustration at dysfunctional impotence ;) If I hit you rather than heal, I die in silly-time. If I heal, I can't hit you, so you only die if someone else CCs you then DPSs you into oblivion for me, and if they don't I still die really rather quickly.

The trick with the examples you've given is that they're by and large PvE balancing, or - as you say - e-peen extending. They don't directly affect the function of PvP combat. As such, they require less thought and less balance testing, and can be churned out much quicker than actual class balances.

Mythic should, quite rightly, be concerned every time they do something that affects PvP balance - I just think they grossly overestimate the advantage functioning at range affords. And I truly dread how things'll go in Keeps the instant they fix stealther lockpicking.

I like how healers act like the ever-abused children of Warhammer. Why, it's not like three months ago, MDPS and tanks were getting their butts handed to them whenever they tried to do anything!
Sorry, was that a BOrc complaining about Healer's thinking they lack survivability? It couldn't have been, because that would be ridiculous.

-L

[Efertin]

It's because healers in this game are extremely reliant on other players to survive, well, except WP's and DoK's who can ignore their mechanic and walk around with 50% physical mitigation and high toughness, but other than these two classes, the healers in this game can barely do anything to assist in their own survival. They're utterly reliant on tanks and dps to CC and kill the attacker and other healers to heal them.

Another problem is the fact that Zealots/RP's have horrible trees based around DPS, excep they can't DPS, and they have no mechanic at all.

AM's and Shamans were supposed to be hybrids, but their mechanic sucks so badly that they're pure healbots.

[Ayamo]

There should be a lot of people around to protect the few healers that remain...


To bad those people only scream for rezzes or blame the healers even tho, they, as dps, are playing bad.

[Rimarlk]

I've played a 40 mdps and I can say that it is really the skill of healers. I can't tell you how many times a healer could have saved himself had he detaunted me. It's hilarious actually to see them trying to dps and heal themselves at the same time.

Healing could use a buff, but not too big. A mdps should take out an average or below healer in skill pretty fast. A good healers should last a little longer. A great healer should be a pain in the rear end to kill. And there are some of those on my server.

[Marsares]

I've played a 40 mdps and I can say that it is really the skill of healers. I can't tell you how many times a healer could have saved himself had he detaunted me. It's hilarious actually to see them trying to dps and heal themselves at the same time.

Healing could use a buff, but not too big. A mdps should take out an average or below healer in skill pretty fast. A good healers should last a little longer. A great healer should be a pain in the rear end to kill. And there are some of those on my server.

Believe me, on my AM the first thing I do when I see a WE coming for me is Detaunt, Bubble, Hot, Hot, don't move, don't turn back, and yet there's no chance until team mates help me out. Now, you can give the team-work argument, but that really doesn't fly. The same could be said about Fetch! and all the other things Destro find OP.

[Chakraa]

My signature says it all....... zealots/rp/shamans/archmages all need some survivability buffs. You can't have the highest priority class be the easiest to kill.

[thegrifter]

I've played a 40 mdps and I can say that it is really the skill of healers. I can't tell you how many times a healer could have saved himself had he detaunted me. It's hilarious actually to see them trying to dps and heal themselves at the same time.
Except detaunt only debuffs attack power. Even then, look at the mechanic you want a healer to deal with when attacked. Detaunt, heal, wait for help. Why not be able to shield, heal, fight back, survive, and possibly win? Healers aren't asking to be the most powerful class in the game, we are just asking to have a life expectancy of longer then 10-12 seconds.

No pure healer (WP/DoK dont count) can win a 1v1 or realistically survive most 1v1 against MDPS. Let's be real for a minute. No healer can beat any of the MDPS classes in the game, even if you look at survival, we can't survive most of them for very long either. It is an issue that needs to be addressed, instead I just see posts from other classes wanting to do more damage. Obviously the DPS classes in the game are happy, we are free renown.

Of course I was hoping to be more then free renown in Warhammer Online.

[Onslaught411]

Shouldn't this be renamed "Order Healers are quitting?" Healers is actually the largest Destro demographic according to waranalytics (granted it doesn't show active players).

[Noran]

I don't know why, but half the healers I knew are quitting or already gone.

They say RvR is not fun as a healer because they get Focused and die in 2 seconds. I know white lions kill our healers in 3-5 seconds on average....

Mythic...save our healers!!

Do die in 3-5 secs as Decent geared person ? well thats only possible if somehow my DoK gets fetched and then gangbanged by 10-15 ppls. In no fetch scene that isnt even possible even there is 3-5 ppls poking my sorry arse.

The thing is that stacking non healing stats does rock alot on any healer class.

[Billrizer]

I don't think healers are quitting per say. I think most, like me, are rolling alts to get a taste of the DPS side of things.

[Noran]

--snip--
No healer can beat any of the MDPS classes in the game, even if you look at survival, we can't survive most of them for very long either. It is an issue that needs to be addressed, instead I just see posts from other classes wanting to do more damage. Obviously the DPS classes in the game are happy, we are free renown.

Of course I was hoping to be more then free renown in Warhammer Online.

I so disagree, even in wounds/thoughness kit with chalice on hand I beat 2:1 ppls without ever going under 30% hps.

I really really dont know what are you talking about.

[thegrifter]

I so disagree, even in wounds/thoughness kit with chalice on hand I beat 2:1 ppls without ever going under 30% hps.

I really really dont know what are you talking about.
That is why I said WP/DoK don't count :p

[KatzenKratzen]

Gonna shelf my RP when dwarf MDPS career comes. If you want to enjoy this game - roll a tank or MDPS or a melee healer. Other classes are second sort.

[Qualum]

Mythic has backed themselves into a corner. Healers are not very much fun to play. They certainly aren't the hybrids they hoped them to be. The only semi-working hybrid classes (DoK/WP) were turned into backline healers and are now the FOTM because best survivability + best grinding + best damage + best healing + best utility of healers all in one is a bit much. :)

I know people who quit when BWs got nerfed (I think it was just a fix and they're still fine, personally). I know people will quit when WEs get nerfed. Similarly, more people will quit when DoKs and WPs get nerfed. It's somewhat Mythic's fault because there's no real even hint of balance. And it's somewhat the players fault because people flock to the FOTM very fast and are overly disconcerted when it gets brought back in line.

[Billrizer]

I think Mythic made a mistake with labeling DoKs and WP as healers. Yes they can heal, but that is not really their main purpose . You can go either way - DPS or Healing, much like how a Druid in WOW can do either Feral for melee DPS or Restoration for healing. I don't think DoKs/WPs ignore their mechanic outright. Healing via melee is not as powerful as speccing for back line healing (IMO) and besides most melee DoKs/WPs only heal themselves.

The same does not translate to a Zealot/Shaman/Rune Priest obviosuly and if it was meant to then Mythic made three mistakes right there.

Out of pure healing I would still take a Zealot over a DoK, for example. While DoKs rival anyone when it comes to AOE heals but the Zealots single target heals really make a difference.

[kbern]

All detaunt does is buy you time IF you have others to come and assist you.

If you are 1:1 no reason to even use it unless you are running for your life.

[KatzenKratzen]

I know people who quit when BWs got nerfed (I think it was just a fix and they're still fine, personally). I know people will quit when WEs get nerfed. Similarly, more people will quit when DoKs and WPs get nerfed. It's somewhat Mythic's fault because there's no real even hint of balance. And it's somewhat the players fault because people flock to the FOTM very fast and are overly disconcerted when it gets brought back in line.
You don't need to nerf anyone to try to fix RHealers.

[Mandrath]

Except detaunt only debuffs attack power. Even then, look at the mechanic you want a healer to deal with when attacked. Detaunt, heal, wait for help. Why not be able to shield, heal, fight back, survive, and possibly win? Healers aren't asking to be the most powerful class in the game, we are just asking to have a life expectancy of longer then 10-12 seconds.

No pure healer (WP/DoK dont count) can win a 1v1 or realistically survive most 1v1 against MDPS. Let's be real for a minute. No healer can beat any of the MDPS classes in the game, even if you look at survival, we can't survive most of them for very long either. It is an issue that needs to be addressed, instead I just see posts from other classes wanting to do more damage. Obviously the DPS classes in the game are happy, we are free renown.

Of course I was hoping to be more then free renown in Warhammer Online.

You do realize that MDPS classes are made for one specific purpose. To kill people through burst damage. We have skills which allow us to specifically target and kill casters. That is our job. Now, put a Tank on us and we're dead. Get a little range on us and we're dead.

The truth is that this game is made to force teamwork for survivability. Teamwork works both ways. Tanks/MDPS need healers to survive, Healers need Tanks/MDPS to survive.

[KatzenKratzen]

You do realize that MDPS classes are made for one specific purpose. To kill people through burst damage. We have skills which allow us to specifically target and kill casters. That is our job. Now, put a Tank on us and we're dead. Get a little range on us and we're dead.
Healers are made for specific purpose too. Sorry this argument goes both ways. I can't do my job well, I am really annoyed that some terrible tunnelvisioning marauder-train is able to take me down no matter what I do or my comrades do. And no, putting a tank on a Marauder does not mean a dead Marauder at all.

You are doing your job too good, I am not able to do my job at enjoyable level. Quitting the Healer class when the opportunity hits is what I am going to do solely because of this reason. Your fun stops at the moment when it starts ruining my fun.

[Mandrath]

Healers are made for specific purpose too. Sorry this argument goes both ways. I can't do my job well, I am really annoyed that some terrible tunnelvisioning marauder-train is able to take me down no matter what I do or my comrades do. And no, putting a tank on a Marauder does not mean a dead Marauder at all.

You are doing your job too good, I am not able to do my job at enjoyable level. Quitting the Healer class when the opportunity hits is what I am going to do solely because of this reason. Your fun stops at the moment when it starts ruining my fun.

Yes, healers are made for a specific purpose. In order for a healer to reliably do that purpose, they need the support of a protecting MDPS or Tank. You can't expect to be able to just stand there and cast heals without being at risk. If I jump on a healer as a Marauder and just one other person of any class comes to help said healer, I'm dead. No questions asked. Also, if I don't have a least a heal or two, from either potions, team mate or morale abilities, I can be killed by a Healer.

Also, as for the Tanks, I did make allowances for skill differences between the MDPS and Tank. I can solo a KoTBS who is too reliant on their auras and doesn't use the rest of his skills. Swordmasters are a pain. Ironbreakers almost always own me.

[KatzenKratzen]

Yes, healers are made for a specific purpose. In order for a healer to reliably do that purpose, they need the support of a protecting MDPS or Tank. You can't expect to be able to just stand there and cast heals without being at risk. If I jump on a healer as a Marauder and just one other person of any class comes to help said healer, I'm dead. No questions asked. Also, if I don't have a least a heal or two, from either potions, team mate or morale abilities, I can be killed by a Healer.
Sorry but this works both ways and I don't see the reason why should it work in favour of MDPS class. Why isn't it: "you can't kill healer if tanks/other mdps/your healers don't support you"? And sorry, if healer kills you then you are most likely in T1, my top kills on my Rune Priest was Rune Priest class before the killing blow contribution got fixed.

Starting to put tanks into equation of 1v1 match and saying that "D'oh, I'm gonna lose in 2v1 match" as an argument is silly. Say what, healer gets a tank to help him, you get a WE to help you. Who will win now, m?

As a leitmotiff note: Lets flip the sides and make the situation for MDPS that they need to work the hell out as a group to put a healer down. Will you like it? Don't think so. Why should I like it? Why should the whole deep and wide level of WAR's strategy boil down to single "Kill Healer First xD" ?

[Tsalarian]

I know white lions kill our healers in 3-5 seconds on average....
Proof please... (sounds familiar?)

As for the reasons to healers quitting, I think chemicalpoet (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=92683) covered most of them.

[Noran]

As AM that is complety geared with wounds/thoughness/willpower, and starting to soon scare my guild mates that my stats are getting almost the same level as tanks do. Well with certain humour in view, but still stacking those and rather new Capital siege set gear just 2 pieces (its all i need).

AM turn from squishy into something else, as My paper thing armor thoughness is the only thing that keeps me alive and surely it aint the best stat, but high amounts on wounds and thoughness I have noticed the real difference than trying to stack wounds / willpower and so give my heals more power when im getting poked at.

Willpower is usefull in places where you can cast your 3 sec+ heals without any concerns about to be hit or mauled to hug floor or something similar. In situations where you are alone or rest are just ignoring to help you (i rest my case that I dont have to deal with that anymore due I dont do ever again pugs, due high demand in guild/ally for survival geared healers for Premades) one really has to take care for yourself willpower looses its meaningtotally because you aitn going to be casting those 3sec spell at this century. So survival over anything as AM, does make difference, even your best heals get nice 20% cutdown from survival gear its still better than nothing and you are still able to insta ress ppls, and that makes huge difference.

The thing basicly lies at the point "do you get help when in need or dont" I have started a new 'fanclub' with SW's so they keep their m1 open just to keep me alive and then after it to use AoE melee root. So the tank gets more time to hike from never-never-land to help my arse, because they know that if they loose their instant resser and WP is most likely so busy on AoE heals that this single little act from them can turn the full scenario into our victory.

So we paper or cotton geared 'cross dressing' healers need love and If we dont get it we mad and later specially if you dont have guild/ally to keep you going on might reroll. SO basicly it comes down to ppls that are between the seat and keyb.
Even nice guild that really doesnt do alot of anything, but when it does the healers are on high stage and their are the most precious thingie with tanks.
I surely understand that ppls that dont get any love or 'dont seek it at all' are rerolling because healers need those guard-hugs and some nice rooter to help.

[Noran]

Proof please... (sounds familiar?)

As for the reasons to healers quitting, I think chemicalpoet (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=92683) covered most of them.

read my post above and re-think.

[Mandrath]

Ok, read my post very carefully. I clearly stated that if I don't get at least some help from a healer on my team, I can die, but that is usually because by the time I get to the healer someone else has hit me at least once or twice first from range.

Addressing your scenario, if (big if) 2 uninterrupted MDPS get on 1 Healer and 1 Tank, the MDPS are going to win, but at least one of them will die. Believe me, I take a lot of dirt naps as MDPS just trying to get to the back lines. Once I'm there, I'm a force to be reckoned with, sure. But the trick is I have to get there first.

If you don't like playing a healer, don't blame class balance. There is no way a healer should ever be able to stand toe-to-toe with a DPS class survive. It does happen occasionally, but it is rare unless you're talking about WP and DoK. Healers are meant to be squishy. The game has always been about killing the healers first.

And no, I'm not T1, I'm high T3 about to go T4.

[Tsalarian]

read my post above and re-think.
What exactly should I rethink?

[Chakraa]

You do realize that MDPS classes are made for one specific purpose. To kill people through burst damage. We have skills which allow us to specifically target and kill casters. That is our job. Now, put a Tank on us and we're dead. Get a little range on us and we're dead.

The truth is that this game is made to force teamwork for survivability. Teamwork works both ways. Tanks/MDPS need healers to survive, Healers need Tanks/MDPS to survive.



No..... you should not simply be able to burst somebody down. If you want that play an FPS. To kill somebody should take a coordinated focus fire with a heal debuff or a well times CC on the healer while you FF the target. Last I counted there were 7 different classes with heal debuffs and like 144 different CC methods...... use them!!!

[Smasher78]

Sorry, was that a BOrc complaining about Healer's thinking they lack survivability? It couldn't have been, because that would be ridiculous.

-L
Thank you for responding to a troll post with an ad hominem attack. You make me proud to be a member of the Order community, which is full of mature players making well thought out statements such as this. [/sarcasm]

Shameful.

[Litholen]

Thank you for responding to a troll post with an ad hominem attack. You make me proud to be a member of the Order community, which is full of mature players making well thought out statements such as this. [/sarcasm]

Shameful.
Actually, strictly speaking my response was not an ad hominem attack - it was a caustic rebuttal (caustism is like sarcasm, only more biting). Also, I didn't notice anything in your post relevant to the topic at hand? So your post was actually an ad hominem attack, not even cunningly masked with topical commentary. But if you want, I'll apologise to the troll.

There, does that make you feel better? :)

-L

[KatzenKratzen]

Ok, read my post very carefully. I clearly stated that if I don't get at least some help from a healer on my team, I can die, but that is usually because by the time I get to the healer someone else has hit me at least once or twice first from range.
Now there is some guy from the range... *sigh* I was talking about a sole issue of Healer vs MDPS match up which MDPS consider to be an autowin for them. I don't like this. It is not enjoyable and not fair. If you don't understand that autowin situations are not fun for the other side then I won't even bother with you.

In bigger groups MDPS still have an edge over healers and it is obvious especially when MDPS stack or are with classes they synergize the best.

Addressing your scenario, if (big if) 2 uninterrupted MDPS get on 1 Healer and 1 Tank, the MDPS are going to win, but at least one of them will die. Believe me, I take a lot of dirt naps as MDPS just trying to get to the back lines. Once I'm there, I'm a force to be reckoned with, sure. But the trick is I have to get there first.
No. It takes around 7-12 secs for two MDPS to bring down a healer who is assisted by a tank. And by no means an MDPS is going to die in 7-12 secs on a detaunted tank. And to get there you just need to press a key whichever is bound to Move Forward action. Usually it is W, I have E.

If you don't like playing a healer, don't blame class balance. There is no way a healer should ever be able to stand toe-to-toe with a DPS class survive. It does happen occasionally, but it is rare unless you're talking about WP and DoK. Healers are meant to be squishy. The game has always been about killing the healers first.
I like playing a healer, I don't like the situation Ranged healers are now in. In your words I understand the statement "I love the current situation of tunnelvisioning the healer and don't want to see it changed". Sorry, this means we are on different waves and I have no intention to prove you something. The game is meant to be fun for everyone and currently playing a ranged healer is barely fun. First I really enjoyed the blade-running style but it gets annoying and really frustrating if you keep sticking around with it.

And no, I'm not T1, I'm high T3 about to go T4.
Yeah well that explains some of your statements.

[Noran]

Proof please... (sounds familiar?)

As for the reasons to healers quitting, I think chemicalpoet (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=92683) covered most of them.
quoting him:
They quit (I did too) because healing, or their class (both, usually), are weak.

Why play a weak class that does no damage--hardly "hybrids" like they promised, can't survive in ORvR and would be better off as a RDPS in the first place? Yeup, there isn't a reason.

Personally, I didn't gear/renown out my zealot to be a rez-bot, but that's the way it is, and that is why he is on the shelf.
---
- No decent gear at all, prolly under t3 or mid t3.
- No survival on ORvR, gimme a break when a lesser AM doesnt even have issues.
- To deal damage, Meh it even reads on char crea screen as healer !!!!
- No saying about pug / premade at all.
---

Get those several things i mentioned and I can promise you that you arent anymore to bag toss around in PREMADE scene's or GOOD ALLY/GUILD SIEGES. get it huh ?

It's all about that low armor healers arent the DAMN druids, resto shamans, Disc Priests of WoW that can do anything as they desire, by just pressing different keys in different order.. WAR is A darn TEAM play game where lessers teams via group balance or cordination really get pummeled.

[Farshatok]

No. It takes around 7-12 secs for two MDPS to bring down a healer who is assisted by a tank. And by no means an MDPS is going to die in 7-12 secs on a detaunted tank. And to get there you just need to press a key whichever is bound to Move Forward action. Usually it is W, I have E.


With Guard + Challenge + your Detaunt, you die in 7-12 secs?

[KatzenKratzen]

It's all about that low armor healers arent the DAMN druids, resto shamans, Disc Priests of WoW that can do anything as they desire, by just pressing different keys in different order.. WAR is A darn TEAM play game where lessers teams via group balance or cordination really get pummeled.
Sorry but WoW is also a damn TEAM game and Druid, Priest and Resto Shamans could not just press keys in different order, only against terribad opponents. Moreover WoW had much more dimensions in healer vs DPS relations: it actually included CC'ing, outlasting, draining, bursting down the DD first instead of healer and many more. It varied from "can't kill no matter how much I try" of Druid vs Mage or Paladin vs Warrior to "Killable, just give me some time for a perfect skill execution" of Warrior vs Druid and Mage vs Paladin.

[KatzenKratzen]

With Guard + Challenge + your Detaunt, you die in 7-12 secs?
With two Disorients, Taunts, KD's and Healing Redux - yes, I will. Especially when MDPS are smart enough to Sever Blessing a Grimnir's Shield - the best defense RP has.

[Tsalarian]

I have done many things to increase survivability. I still believe it is not enough... and in the end I am not the class I was promised.

[Noran]

Sorry but WoW is also a damn TEAM game and Druid, Priest and Resto Shamans could not just press keys in different order, only against terribad opponents. Moreover WoW had much more dimensions in healer vs DPS relations: it actually included CC'ing, outlasting, draining, bursting down the DD first instead of healer and many more. It varied from "can't kill no matter how much I try" of Druid vs Mage or Paladin vs Warrior to "Killable, just give me some time for a perfect skill execution" of Warrior vs Druid and Mage vs Paladin.

You are preferring to Arena teams right ? then i understand your point.

outlasting others ? huh what is that thats just s spec and gear nothing else.

and in arena in WoW you had to go for the healers first as it is WAR because like druid healer could literally drag the fight to kingdom come.

in WoW 2:1 is different but make a fight like dok/wp against 2 dpsers and you know that dok/wp will win everytime if the dok/wp knows how to play and has geared decently.

The difference is what class is that healer as the same it was on WoW.

So your comment is arbitually nill.

[Noran]

I have done many things to increase survivability. I still believe it is not enough... and in the end I am not the class I was promised.

Is RP your main these days ? Due need some sort of base to reply. and are you mainly running in pugs or premades ?

[Tsalarian]

I did play a RP as a main to R40, and for about a month after that. Now I don't play at all.
When I did play it was about 50/50 on premades/pug.

[Farshatok]

With two Disorients, Taunts, KD's and Healing Redux - yes, I will. Especially when MDPS are smart enough to Sever Blessing a Grimnir's Shield - the best defense RP has.

Just for kicks:
- two disorients = two maras
- Sever Blessing = WE/Chosen
- MDPS doesn't have taunt

Healing debuffs do stack, which is a problem indeed in the aforementioned case.

[KatzenKratzen]

outlasting others ? huh what is that thats just s spec and gear nothing else.
There were specs and teams solely made on outlasting/draining and that was a really viable and popular strategy. I don't really understand your statement...

and in arena in WoW you had to go for the healers first as it is WAR because like druid healer could literally drag the fight to kingdom come.No. Really no. You are so wrong I won't even bother into deep explanations regarding this. In WoW it was much easier to keep healer CC'ed and burst down his teammates during that time. And there were loads of different match ups that NEVER involved going for healer first. Lets take for example a Rogue Mage Priest vs Rogue Mage Priest - you never went for Priest first as TTK was high and the other team was able to lock down your mage and just tear it apart.

I assume you never played at higher ratings...

The difference is what class is that healer as the same it was on WoW. No. No. Totally incorrect. The difference between WoW healers and WAR healers is HUGE. If you don't see it then I can't take you any serious.

So your comment is arbitually nill.OK, If you say so. Oh wait, who are you to tell it here?

Just for kicks:
- two disorients = two maras
- Sever Blessing = WE/Chosen
- MDPS doesn't have taunt
Marauder has two disorients - one Ailment the other Damaging type. One of the disorients he can keep up all the time as it is on 5 sec timer with 5 sec CD. And I typed taunt accidentally, was thinking of something else and typing something else too.

And Healing Debuff stacking is actually nothing special as some classes have 100% healing debuff with them.

[saidor]

Any WP or RP who complains about getting killed needs to be taken out and shot. Whilst I wouldnt call them over powered, they are pretty damn close to it with both almost impossible for anyone but a high end dps being able to take them down one on one. You cant really say the same about any of the destruction classes. DoK's are the best at that but they dont excel at either combat or healing - but are good at both, where as a WP excels at healing and is good at combat.

I can certainly understand why healers on the destruction side of the game want to leave but the order side, there is an abundance of Wp's and RP's in every Tier on our server.

Yes its a team game but again, order have a huge advantage with their massive knockbacks. They also have a huge advantage in T4 with fetch being more than double the range of destructions equivelant. So its that much harder for destruction to defend healers when their tanks are flying one way and their healers are flying another.

Then there is disarm and disable which everyone complains about but still continue to use on others.

[KatzenKratzen]

Any WP or RP who complains about getting killed needs to be taken out and shot.
Any Chosen who complains about being useless needs to be taken out and shot. C WAT I DID THAR?

[Noran]

I did play a RP as a main to R40, and for about a month after that. Now I don't play at all.
When I did play it was about 50/50 on premades/pug.

if its 50/50 then you should have noticed that premades are far supreme and sometimes pugs when there is enough healers can be so darn OP that you can almost realex at the 'wheel'.

Its highly deputant on numbers of healers that actually heal for the 110% and do all they can. Plus the rest of the ppls tanks and those who can help a healer.

I, myself can only say when there is good team that helps them few healers around Order camp and specially 'train running' healers that heal other healers as well when not needed aka HoT others all the time even there aint danger at present, makes a difference. Survival wise RP is one of the best ones around, talking about to hard times I have on DoK to poke you to death (on those rare cases I go dps) Wounds and thoughness help alot.. I, myself have totally dissed willpower out of the window.

As said earlier on n+1 topics before we healers need loving and those guard hugs and hugging a BW/SW aint a bad idea because they more likely fire their aoe tricks just because they think that that WE is coming for them =)

While in PuG's I made a macro "Healer on the boat, I would love some Guards and help, when mentioned" and other macro "(my name) Healer under attack please some assistance". And that actually caught many ppls eye and afterwards was told It really did help them to know when to draw back and specially mentioning my name helpped them to toss guard on me.

I know this didnt turn out to be 'healers survival guide 101', but atleast this is experiences that have helpped me alot and hoping that helps you too.

[Chrevor]

sounds like a constructive thread based solely on facts and full of insight..

OP: "half the healers I knew are quitting or already gone."

half of zero is still zero! =)
...

in all honesty, I know people that have rolled healers recently and love playin em. people will shelf certain toons and make alts; I'm guessing that theres a pretty solid balance between healers making dps alts and dps making healer alts... just guessing tho; too much fact and I'd be kicked out of this thread

[Noran]

There were specs and teams solely made on outlasting/draining and that was a really viable and popular strategy. I don't really understand your statement...
mana burning went out of the picture So long ago that I cant even remember, and in 5vs5 it never was actually working tactic because ppls started rolling 2dps 2 healers 1dps/healer teams.

No. Really no. You are so wrong I won't even bother into deep explanations regarding this. In WoW it was much easier to keep healer CC'ed and burst down his teammates during that time. And there were loads of different match ups that NEVER involved going for healer first. Lets take for example a Rogue Mage Priest vs Rogue Mage Priest - you never went for Priest first as TTK was high and the other team was able to lock down your mage and just tear it apart.
I think used words poorly, going for the healer and keeping em on CC - almost the same but not. RMP is 3vs3 and when have you seen 3vs3 fights on war =) never neither have I 5vs5 on WoW needed tactics and good ones too, but still it was fight in sand box with 'limited abilities based on CD' that made several classes unable to perform to the fullest.

I assume you never played at higher ratings...
no never, because WoW arena aint PvP in its real meaning, its just sandbox fightninh with todays most OP classes combined. And cant be anyhow reflected to WAR with serious meaning. and please keep the Arena epeen away, I just hate it because its just I mentioned above, aka not real PvP.

No. No. Totally incorrect. The difference between WoW healers and WAR healers is HUGE. If you don't see it then I can't take you any serious.

OK, If you say so. Oh wait, who are you to tell it here?

God damn, ofcourse they aint the same at any level. Nor is the PvP at same level in WAR or WoW. If I have to level it down. WoW has mana bar, WAR has limited AP / SE/RF bar (SE/RF aint the same as AP bar). But general level of my comment stays. Maybe resto shaman might be the best example compared to WAR healers. Really Really High healing and can do it for a long while, until you get caught in any CC.


Marauder has two disorients - one Ailment the other Damaging type. One of the disorients he can keep up all the time as it is on 5 sec timer with 5 sec CD. And I typed taunt accidentally, was thinking of something else and typing something else too.

And Healing Debuff stacking is actually nothing special as some classes have 100% healing debuff with them.
Continous CoT, felpuppy from Warlock is nastier, but warlock / mara comp aint the same for a healer.
100% healing Debuff? 50%+50% debuff aint 100% in any means if you look game mechanics.

[Tooster]

I didn't read everything but here's my 2c.

Find a tank or two willing to stay with the back line and throw /guard on whoever's getting jumped by a WL / WH and you your back line will last a lot longer. I still don't understand why there's no tank using this skill in scenarios. Learn your role.

[Ayamo]

I didn't read everything but here's my 2c.

Find a tank or two willing to stay with the back line and throw /guard on whoever's getting jumped by a WL / WH and you your back line will last a lot longer. I still don't understand why there's no tank using this skill in scenarios. Learn your role.


Because they are all pro dps tanks.

[Noran]

I didn't read everything but here's my 2c.

Find a tank or two willing to stay with the back line and throw /guard on whoever's getting jumped by a WL / WH and you your back line will last a lot longer. I still don't understand why there's no tank using this skill in scenarios. Learn your role.

I give you my applauds :D, because that comment deserves it.

[KatzenKratzen]

mumbo jumbo about arena
Won't reply to that, you are wrong on so many levels that it will take eternity to clear everything up. Have no wish to derail the thread even further.

50% healing debuff + 50% healing debuff doesn't mean 100% healing debuff. Its 75%. And yeah, how delusional I was, one single Guard from tank really solves all the problems and Tank has clearly no other role on the battlefield but to hug every healer there is...

[Spiroth]

As a struggling 33 (Alch spec) Zealot, here is my take:

1. I'm squishy. I'm OK with this. I'm supposed to be.
2. My mechanic is broken. There is very little in any of my trees that I see worth while, ESPECIALLY the "pretty birdy" thingy I put over their head related ones.
3. My big heal is useless, it's PVE only. This is my big peeve #1. 99.9% of the time it goes off just after the target dies. I can't even get it off untouched onto a tank in time usually. No now, I've repeatedly wasted many 3 second casts and done nothing for my group. NOTHING.
4. The buff to the melee healers hurts. A LOT. Most of the time when I'm grouped with them, they take care of most of the damage done and I just top off a bit here and there with flash.
5. My DPS tree sucks. Yes, I can do some decent damage over a long period of time. But it's not enough by a long shot.
6. I feel outclassed by AE spec healers. All of them. Zealots and all. Now, I have a guildy that is AE and me as single target. This works great in PVE, but not so much in PVP. I've often felt I should go AE spec and just have 2 of us spamming AE heals until we die.

The biggest issue is that the Zealot has become a class that I really don't care to play. I use flash most of the time now, which is unsatisfactory. My other skills are lacking. My AE knockback is OK, detaunt is useless damn near, and I'm not even sure it's working anymore as I've not noticed any difference using it. My rituals are a joke. (The AP regen is OK in PVE)

Overall, the class is so boring. I played a top end DAOC Healer. They were squishy, but I had tools to fix that. I could actually defend myself and my heals were very effective. She was very fun to play. (Hi Mid/Percival!)

I'm not saying I need to be uber and unkillable. Not at all. I really don't know a defined solution, but decreasing my cast time on Elixer is one. Revamping the tactics and trees is two, and some sort of swap ability turning in a certain or percentage of my willpower into INT would help greatly.

I'd like to see the little birdy go away completely, as it's pointless.

So, I rolled a Marauder (and I've played with ALL other Desto classes to 20 aside from BG and Magus) and I LOVE it. Lots to do, lots of tools to change the tide, I'm easilly killed, and still rely on guard and heals.

I've noticed lately that having gone through T3 with a lot of different characters after release that there is a severe lack of Destro healing while Order tends to have a couple WP, a couple RP's and one of those other squishy healers. I've been screen caping SC's every time...I've gone back and looked a bit and it's scary.

I don't want buffed per se, I just want the class to be fun. And as a supposed primary healer, I want to do my job. A lot of the frustration is cast times and animation bugs preventing it.

[Deeva]

I didn't read everything but here's my 2c.

Find a tank or two willing to stay with the back line and throw /guard on whoever's getting jumped by a WL / WH and you your back line will last a lot longer. I still don't understand why there's no tank using this skill in scenarios. Learn your role.

There is little to no reward for defending a person or objective.

Also- WTB Goblin racial tactics for AMs.

[Ayamo]

There is little to no reward for defending a person or objective.

Also- WTB Goblin racial tactics for AMs.



No offense, but as dok I'm usualy safeguarding shamans because people like to pick them out as easy targets,


Their power might sounds oh so godly on paper to you, but its far from the truth.


Anyway, thats not the point of this thread^

[Noran]

Won't reply to that, you are wrong on so many levels that it will take eternity to clear everything up. Have no wish to derail the thread even further.

50% healing debuff + 50% healing debuff doesn't mean 100% healing debuff. Its 75%. And yeah, how delusional I was, one single Guard from tank really solves all the problems and Tank has clearly no other role on the battlefield but to hug every healer there is...

You are really that darn single minded, to think that I base all my tank helper things on just guard ability.. IESUS get a damn grip, i cant honestly say anything more if you think thats it.

Ok if its so on your server no wonder order takes always up in the arse and they pretty much damn deserve it, due tanks keep em healers alice and stupid tanks dont.

im done with you.

[Tsalarian]

I thought this thread was about why healers are quitting, and not about "L2P healers" ?

[Slizzy]

sounds like a constructive thread based solely on facts and full of insight..

OP: "half the healers I knew are quitting or already gone."

half of zero is still zero! =)
...

in all honesty, I know people that have rolled healers recently and love playin em. people will shelf certain toons and make alts; I'm guessing that theres a pretty solid balance between healers making dps alts and dps making healer alts... just guessing tho; too much fact and I'd be kicked out of this thread


It's called an observation.

Not every arguement needs to be backed up by screenshots, eye witnesses and a thesis sized paper.

[Smasher78]

Actually, strictly speaking my response was not an ad hominem attack - it was a caustic rebuttal (caustism is like sarcasm, only more biting). Also, I didn't notice anything in your post relevant to the topic at hand? So your post was actually an ad hominem attack, not even cunningly masked with topical commentary. But if you want, I'll apologise to the troll.

There, does that make you feel better? :)

-L

I dunno how it makes Mr. Tier 2 Empire Zone back there any less right, though.

Rude as he's being, 2-3 months ago when we had prenerf BW/Sorc running around, MDPS were all 'quitting the game,' and Mythic 'wasn't listening to them,' and it was a 'facerolling caster's game.' Now the tables have turned, and the healers are 'free renown bags' for the supposed 'FPS kiddies' (A term, which I might add, is rather insulting to me personally, as I still play Team Fortress 2 from time-to-time) who apparently all play DPS classes. It's more distressing when you notice that a number of healers seem to think that they should be right in this matter simply by virtue of the fact that their role is considered to have more 'value' in some way than other members, as if they sacrifice more than the MDPS who is regularly guaranteed death behind the enemy lines, the Tank who has to struggle with his anemic Guard ability and the constant demand from other players to use it, and so on, and so forth.

Frankly, it's just disturbing that people seem to think it's appropriate to use the 'class: XYZ' header under a poster's name to base an argument off of. My class, faction, server, guild, username, or avatar should never be used as a basis for anything that one thinks would resemble a 'clever' or 'intelligent' response: all it does is promote flame wars and devolves into mindless 'class vs. class' debates that don't do anything to better the game.

Now, regarding the actual subject of healers? While there are some design flaws (namely among the Shaman and especially Archmage) that need to be addressed, the whole matter of being 'Renown bags for the MDPS' is silly, as is expecting any truly viable DPS (as in, on-par with the actual DPS classes) out of your little magic goblin or dwarven rune-carver. The former is just a series of overblown complaints in a predictable balance cycle, and the latter begs the question: If an <insert healy career here> can pump out as much damage as a 'true' DPS class in additon to bringing those precious green numbers to the table, why play a 'true' DPS class?

[Korhadril]

Well, my archmage is pretty much ignored because the poor gal bore me to tears and leveling with her is hellish. BG is my new love, easy and quick leveling, mighty nice skills, feeling of acomplishment (was a Vaul archmage, you don't even know if your debuffs do anything except the heal debuff). And well, that's the problem, healers are boring, really really boring, another frienf who has a 34 runepriest is in love with is Swordmaster and I certainly have more fun with my Bright Wizard, shadwo Warrior and witch lef than with the archmage (white lion is still on the fence).

Makes us fun, makes us dinamic, give us mechanics or make them stop being a joke.

[Ayamo]

Well, my archmage is pretty much ignored because the poor gal bore me to tears and leveling with her is hellish. BG is my new love, easy and quick leveling, mighty nice skills, feeling of acomplishment (was a Vaul archmage, you don't even know if your debuffs do anything except the heal debuff). And well, that's the problem, healers are boring, really really boring, another frienf who has a 34 runepriest is in love with is Swordmaster and I certainly have more fun with my Bright Wizard, shadwo Warrior and witch lef than with the archmage (white lion is still on the fence).

Makes us fun, makes us dinamic, give us mechanics or make them stop being a joke.


I love healers for the fact that unless you are facing a premade you aren't dieing every 0.5 sec which I do with my melee classes.

I can see where your goin tho, and pve is just /zzzz as healer.

[Tsalarian]

the whole matter of being 'Renown bags for the MDPS' is silly, as is expecting any truly viable DPS (as in, on-par with the actual DPS classes) out of your little magic goblin or dwarven rune-carver. The former is just a series of overblown complaints in a predictable balance cycle, and the latter begs the question: If an <insert healy career here> can pump out as much damage as a 'true' DPS class in additon to bringing those precious green numbers to the table, why play a 'true' DPS class?
Could you please tell me where any healer expects to have the dps of any pure dps class? Or are you just making stuff up?

Once more to put it as simple as I can:
The reason I quit playing as a Rune Priest is that it is not the class I was told it would be; http://www.war-europe.com/#/careers/?career=runepriest〈=en (http://www.war-europe.com/#/careers/?career=runepriest&lang=en).

[Noran]

I thought this thread was about why healers are quitting, and not about "L2P healers" ?

I might toss an additional word: "Why Order healers are quitting" and then we might be at the OP's intended point - just a quess, but I havent seen other wise yet.

General:
- Healing requires quite alot work and to be up with games movements aka alot of work in general
- Order Healers still get too much whining and moaning like "Why arent you healing B*tch, didnt even get a single heal HoT", when we are fully busy to keep ourselfs others alive that are keeping the Scene's objective going.
- Increased moaning on boards from sub-par geared ppls that Order healers die in few seconds and there is nothing to be done. And infact in proper terms this is so far from truth.
- General moaning that WE's kill anything in seconds - more Order healers kick the bucket
- Healing doesnt make you feel like a 'john rambo' and killing em all "god mode" person in general kids view.
- Certain Mythic's moments aint giving alot encourage for healers.
- Gearing a Healer aint that easy at all.
yada yada yada ....

[Tsalarian]

I might toss an additional word: "Why Order healers are quitting" and then we might be at the OP's intended point - just a quess, but I havent seen other wise yet.
I am almost certain that the OP meant healers in general (both sides).

[Khaelann]

All detaunt does is buy you time IF you have others to come and assist you.

If you are 1:1 no reason to even use it unless you are running for your life.

Uhh, what?

1vs1 against a ranged class I always detaunt because if I'm not in melee I sure as hell dont want to be hit with the full force of his attacks. Also detaunting works great against WHs who usually try to spike you down in the same manner as a WE. Against other classes it can give you breathing room to cast heals on you even in the middle of combat. Say you do a 3 HoT rotation on yourself... would you NOT detaunt the enemy that will be hitting you for the whole time you cast those when you obviously are not hitting him back?

Detaunt is a powerful tool when used right.

[Smasher78]

Could you please tell me where any healer expects to have the dps of any pure dps class? Or are you just making stuff up?

Lurk the Shaman forums sometime. Seriously. It'll be your daily dose of 'Oh yeah, that's why I don't play on their side.'

Edit: Also, you're using a piece of marketing and your expectations to match up exactly what it says on the tin? Advertising analysis, man. Their intent is to make you buy their product, not tell you the full truth. If every class played as-written on the official site, everyone would be OP and undefeatable.

[Aiiane]

Uhh, what?

1vs1 against a ranged class I always detaunt because if I'm not in melee I sure as hell dont want to be hit with the full force of his attacks. Also detaunting works great against WHs who usually try to spike you down in the same manner as a WE. Against other classes it can give you breathing room to cast heals on you even in the middle of combat. Say you do a 3 HoT rotation on yourself... would you NOT detaunt the enemy that will be hitting you for the whole time you cast those when you obviously are not hitting him back?

Detaunt is a powerful tool when used right.

I think they're referring to the fact that detaunt breaks on damage, so if it's a 1v1 situation and you're actually trying to kill the other person, it's not as useful.

Granted, I'd still say it's useful at some times, such as either a) stacking dots and then detaunting, or b) detaunting to cast some heals on yourself, then going back to DPSing. But they're correct that detaunt isn't nearly as useful if you don't have other teammates helping you.

[Ayamo]

I think they're referring to the fact that detaunt breaks on damage, so if it's a 1v1 situation and you're actually trying to kill the other person, it's not as useful.

.


edit: nvm, you said it in the second post (wtb post delete button)

[bandaidboy]

They quit (I did too) because healing, or their class (both, usually), are weak.

Why play a weak class that does no damage--hardly "hybrids" like they promised, can't survive in ORvR and would be better off as a RDPS in the first place? Yeup, there isn't a reason.

Personally, I didn't gear/renown out my zealot to be a rez-bot, but that's the way it is, and that is why he is on the shelf.

Aye, this game is not a lot of fun in t4 for a healer, fine till t4 but as a 40 shaman my healing is woeful at best(and im speccd for healing). I feel like im playing for others to have fun.I am the best rezzer in the game tho meeeeh.I have a few alts to try an tide me through till mythic bring it to a useful/fun level.
A 1/2 decent WH 5 levels below me can still drop me nm how much I detaunt/self heal as well.

[Tsalarian]

Lurk the Shaman forums sometime. Seriously. It'll be your daily dose of 'Oh yeah, that's why I don't play on their side.'
Could you point to a post saying they want the dps of a pure dps class? I can't find any. I can see them asking for more dps but I can't see them asking to have the same dps as a pure dps class...

Edit: Also, you're using a piece of marketing and your expectations to match up exactly what it says on the tin? Advertising analysis, man. Their intent is to make you buy their product, not tell you the full truth. If every class played as-written on the official site, everyone would be OP and undefeatable.
Aaah, so you're saying I should have known they were lying about the class? It irrelavant though, as no amount of 'argumentation' on your part can change the reasons I based my decision for quitting.
Note: Most of the class descriptions seem fairly accurate but the healers (DoK/WP less so) seem to be missleading.

[thegrifter]

While I find it amusing seeing posts from White Lions, Ironbreakers, Witch Elves, Marauders and other such MDPS telling us to detaunt and do xxx.... Healers are complaining because that doesn't work. Guard, while nice, still doesn't help our survivability all that much because of all the debuffs that are put onto us. Healers are renown pinatas.

Any MDPS can easily kill any healer in the game and they know it. Do any MDPS run if they see a healer riding along on their mount? I run from *everyone*, unless I'm in the herd, because I know that I'm a renown pinata.

All MDPS have higher DPS then we have HPS. This is the fundamental disagreement between MDPS and healers. Ideally I think healing and damage outputs should be closer to one another, and IMO I think a single MDPS on a healer 1v1, should take a minimum of 30+ seconds to kill them.

As far as our other trees and talents go, I guess it would be naive of me to think that perhaps if I to spec damage, that I *might* perhaps, say 10% of the time, be able to kill MDPS, in the event that we choose to 1v1. As it stands now, we don't even have any options but to backline heal and hope other gamers come to our rescue.

Playing a healer makes me feel like I'm some sort of damsel in distress...

[Litholen]

Actually, going off this post I suspect we agree on more than you realise.

Rude as he's being, 2-3 months ago when we had prenerf BW/Sorc running around, MDPS were all 'quitting the game,' and Mythic 'wasn't listening to them,' and it was a 'facerolling caster's game.' Now the tables have turned, and the healers are 'free renown bags'

Except the tables haven't turned - because even then, nobody would have called this a facerolling Runepriest's game, and certainly not a facerolling AM's game. Rather, the focus has shifted from one problem to the next. My guess is it's cyclical, but I've no independent evidence with which to support that assertion - it's just a guess :)

for the supposed 'FPS kiddies' (A term, which I might add, is rather insulting to me personally, as I still play Team Fortress 2 from time-to-time) who apparently all play DPS classes.
I still play TF2 - I just don't play a healer ;) There is a difference between people who play FPS games, and people who apply that mindset to all games they play. Further to this are people who use FPS rationales to justify their arguments in other environs - and it's this last group who cause the greatest friction.

It's more distressing when you notice that a number of healers seem to think that they should be right in this matter simply by virtue of the fact that their role is considered to have more 'value' in some way than other members, as if they sacrifice more than the MDPS who is regularly guaranteed death behind the enemy lines, the Tank who has to struggle with his anemic Guard ability and the constant demand from other players to use it, and so on, and so forth.
Far from it, if you actually read my posts on this subject, and I've made several, my views are that no healer should be able to outheal a single-target DPS if they are under fire. We should be able to heal a noticeable percentage of their damage, the difference being what determines their TTK on us relative to our wounds.

I certainly don't view healers as more important than any other class. A well-played healer is as valuable to his party as a well-played tank or RDPS or MDPS. One of the things Mythic did right was ensure that no archetype held overall control of the battlefield.

What they did wrong was apply imbalanced reliances between classes. MDPS are not as reliant on healers as healers are on tanks, for example. Look at every NERF WE LOL thread on the forum, and every one will include a WE pointing out that they're never healed - that the rest of their team cares neither whether they live or die. And they can still do their job.

A tank is less reliant on a healer than the healer is on the tank in oRvR for two reasons. First, the tank can substitute an endgame healer's Big Heal twice over with an endgame potion. Yes, he'll die eventually - quickly if FF'd - but it can make a noticeable difference to his time to death. A healer can't potion himself up a Guard effect out of thin air.

This is my issue. Not with the fact that MDPS can kill me - that's their job, for heaven's sakes. But that the only chance I have of doing my job relies entirely and unequivocally on others, and to a greater level than any other archetype.

Frankly, it's just disturbing that people seem to think it's appropriate to use the 'class: XYZ' header under a poster's name to base an argument off of. My class, faction, server, guild, username, or avatar should never be used as a basis for anything that one thinks would resemble a 'clever' or 'intelligent' response: all it does is promote flame wars and devolves into mindless 'class vs. class' debates that don't do anything to better the game.
That is going to happen anyway, to be frank. A few pages hence, someone will say it's all because WE/WL/WP/DoK/My Aunt Fanny is OP, someone will respond by saying healers need to L2P, someone else will try and say something they think will calm the argument and get the topic back on track, they'll then be flamed for interrupting what's going to be a highly entertaining flame war for everyone with the IQ of watercress, then 14 pages of WE whines, then threadlock. Every thread I've ever seen where the survivability of healers has been discussed has ended this way - I don't expect this one to be any different.

It's a noble effort, to try and prevent it from happening by attacking me (since, evidently, my posts lack the eloquence of someone willing and actively wanting to discuss the shortcomings of the game viz. his favoured class - and, despite all its flaws, the AM is still my favoured class). But it's doomed to failure, sadly - nothing you or I say will stop this thread becoming yet another WE whinge/rant.

And I don't even think the WE is OP :(

Now, regarding the actual subject of healers? While there are some design flaws (namely among the Shaman and especially Archmage) that need to be addressed, the whole matter of being 'Renown bags for the MDPS' is silly, as is expecting any truly viable DPS (as in, on-par with the actual DPS classes) out of your little magic goblin or dwarven rune-carver.
To put it another way, the Archmage is meant to be a hard counter to the Black Orc (destro's non-anti-caster tank). Does that mean I should consider them an 8-second kill? Of course not. I certainly do not look at a S&B Black Orc in oRvR and say "There's my next renown rank, ripe for the picking".

Nope, I fret. I wonder if he's noticed me. I check the terrain to see if there's any high ground I can get to, then I give up on terrain since he'll be long out of my range before my DPS has downed him if I hem myself onto a hill. I make sure I've got my DPS staff equipped (all my other gear is wounds, obviously, since that's what RvR is meant to be for clothies - whether I'm running Will or Int just comes down to which staff I'm packing).

I strike him from afar with a string of DoTs. I kite him. I pre-HoT myself. I DoT some more. We run around playing this merry game for a while. Maybe he's too dumb, or honourable, to run away, and I'll DoT him into oblivion. Maybe he's a cissy, who sent a tell to his guildie WE to come and gank me as soon as I fired my first string of DoTs - an Orc calling for help, and on a roleplay server, too ;) Or maybe he's smart enough to run to his warcamp once he realises I know what "Ranged DPS" means, and that I have a passing idea on how to play my class.

We have there microcosm'd an entire emotional exchange - a social exchange - the give and take of combat, the hard counter against his predelicted prey - the thrill of the hunt, etc., etc..

Now tell me the last time you heard a WE say she was fretting about whether to attack a lone Archmage. Heck, on my DoK, Archmages are my first target - I know the weaknesses of the class backwards, and they're my easiest kills. But in all the warband and realm chatter, I've never once heard a WE say "Phew, bagged me an AM - and he was my level, too! Booyah!"

Now I am not saying that healers should have crazy-quick TTK on their hard counter, before you misinterpret my point. I'm instead saying that I fear my hard counter - I have waking nightmares every time the Romulan Gank Squad decloaks. I've started hearing Denise Crosby's voice whenever I see one at a Keep Siege.

Does the Black Orc player get a steely, cold sweat whenever he notices that the warband he's facing has two Archmages? Never that I've seen ;) I leave myself open to correction, though - if Archmages as a class really do put the fear of Asuryan into Destruction tanks on server's I've not played on.

The former is just a series of overblown complaints in a predictable balance cycle, and the latter begs the question: If an <insert healy career here> can pump out as much damage as a 'true' DPS class in additon to bringing those precious green numbers to the table, why play a 'true' DPS class?
And at no point have I said I want to be able to do that. Personally? I want a life tap DPS spell. A real one, not that pathetic little 120dps waste of space we get in the Isha Tree. Give Searing Touch back it's lifetap component, and I'd never complain about my class again.

That way, when I die and the long-suffering Rune Priest behind me has to res me, I can feel that it wasn't just the CC and the subsequent DPS train that got my killer - I made her smart a bit, myself.

And, if Mythic was feeling generous - and only if - I might ask them to undo the bubble nerf, or buff our bubble to compensate. But that might be too greedy, so don't tell them I said it, m'kay?

-L

[Sinik]

1. Ooo let the group protect healers (Three seconds is not enough time. What kind of idiotic groups are you fighting that puts 1 mdps on a healer only?)

2. Ooo let the tank guard him (Good idea lets throw abilities like hold the line and all the other things given to tanks designed for them to be front line fighters and have them sit in the back and be a guard bot and insult the potential of their classes. Hell they wouldn't even need a shield for this)

3. Ooo just kill them. (Yeah we'll get right on that with our ability to burst down two mdps within 3 seconds before they take out the healers)

Enjoy your free kills you scrubs. At the very least don't insult the healing community with your ignorant solutions to justify your ez mode lives.

Healers heal to keep people alive and receive the rewarding feeling that comes from knowing that they were able to change the outcome of a fight. We did not plan on simply becoming a liability that can't even be saved let alone take care of ourselves.

[Aiiane]

Calling names isn't going to help change the situation Sinik, don't lower yourself to that. :)

[gorefist]

..ok this is the thing i can fully under stand that some healer classes feel cheated because mythic did say this.. no healer would just be a healer class they would have the skills to defend them selfs..at the moment they dont.. my self as a tank is looking after healers makeing sure i hit the front lines or hang back and keep the healers safe from wl or wh who drop them in no time.. but its true healers do need a bit more bang for there buck because at the moment i can fully understand why there leaveing or quiting war

[Sinik]

Calling names isn't going to help change the situation Sinik, don't lower yourself to that. :)

My apologies. Just tired of these one line posters in Tier 2

[jaydub]

my RR50 AM doesn't get played that often anymore. once i started playing alts. i find the AM to be the most gimp class in this game. i have one of every class but SH/SW in T2. shaman dont have a lot more then AM just a little more if they burn tactic slots to add to their survivability. RP and zealot's dont have a whole lot either but can survive so much better.

i know early on our server was flooded with AM, i was like WTF, everyone is an AM. now when i log in so many times i am the only healer in a scenario.

every other class seems like it has the tools to get it's job done, when i die i can look back and see my mistakes and learn from them. on my AM i look back and can say i did everything right and i still got steam rolled. my mistake was playing an AM.

i do feel like a whipping boy. it is not a joke, it is the most worthless feeling. i can be top healing in a scenario but, i dont feel good about it. my guild mates call me a beast because i do heal my butt off and survive more then most but it still feels like a broken class. i dont want to be able to heal any more i dont want to do any more dps. i just want to part of the action, i want to be involved in the fight instead an outsider. the whole time i felt awkward and out of the fight. once i get in the fight, i can only cast hots. my big heals rely on cast time. i do the best standing far away from combat as possible. meaning i am not part of the action i am just on the side lines. AE damage, disorients and knockdowns can take me from being super effective to struggling just to heal myself. i really dont understand how they can how they can leave the class how it is. WP and DOK's as healer gets tons of things and pure healers get nadda. their group heal is 1 second on 2 second cool down. for a group heal every 3 seconds.

AM/sham/RP/zeal group heal that reads the same amount healed on tool tip as WP/DOK but, is 3 second cast time is VERY easy to set back. so 3 second cast 1.5 second GDC so it is 4.5 second intererval between cast vs WP/DOK's 1 second cast 2 second cool down for a 3 second interval.

i think the WP/DOK are great classes, other healers are some how worse then most other MMO's. mythic did a good thing getting rid of mana, i really thought that they would break down some of the barriers healers in mmo's have but, they only made it worse.

oh ya, in 6/6 sentinel, with healing+ defensive stat rings and staff to be a healer, my dps is almost nothing. one of my dots, law of conductivity, the only dot we have NOT on a cool down. it commonly hits tanks for under 30 damage a tick. had a BO few days ago i was hitting him for 22 with crit was 31. it cost me 35 AP and it did like 130 damage to the guy. it is just totaly ridiculous how little damage we can do with healing gear. a WP in full healing gear can get 300k healing in a sceanrio average. i average 150k. this is a friend i run with almost every day in premade sceanrio groups. he also averages 50k damage and a few kills.


i see grace/wrath spec WP do 100k damage and still manage 150k healing. really good players can hit 150k damage and 200k healing. for an AM to do the same thing, it would take like 10 more mastery points and double AP regen for the whole sceanrio. you think it is funny to see a BW kill a AFK tank. you should see a healing spec AM try, it takes 2-4 minutes, my staff proc does more damage then my dots because the proc's are unmitigated.

[KatzenKratzen]

You are really that darn single minded, to think that I base all my tank helper things on just guard ability.. IESUS get a damn grip, i cant honestly say anything more if you think thats it.

Ok if its so on your server no wonder order takes always up in the arse and they pretty much damn deserve it, due tanks keep em healers alice and stupid tanks dont.

im done with you.
First you ask me to stop the arena-related elitism and you play the same card here. Good thing that you are done, you are a worthless poster anyways. If you think that one tank is enough to solve all healer's problems then you are either exaggerating either stupid. If you don't - then you fail at bringing your thoughts to the public.

2. Ooo let the tank guard him (Good idea lets throw abilities like hold the line and all the other things given to tanks designed for them to be front line fighters and have them sit in the back and be a guard bot and insult the potential of their classes. Hell they wouldn't even need a shield for this)my thoughts exactly. I am actually better of with my friend engineer or BW assisting me than having to rely on KotBS or IB leaving the frontlines (and thus collapsing them) to get away some RoI'ed WE away from me.

btw Engineer's tactic that gives Landmine a disorient effect is broken lowering the healer/engineer synergy but quite a much. Would be nice to fix it, I promise it'll help healers a lot.

[neohobeo]

Had a rank 33 Runepriest, 25 archmage, which I shelved because being healer in this game is just terrible. Here are the reasons I stopped playing my RP.

1: Witch Elves
2: People complaining about my healing when I get attacked
3: Witch Elves


And OP is right. I rarely see a (ranged)healer anymore. AM's are so rare, that you should get an achievement each time you see one, sometimes I see a RP, bur WP's are all over the place. I cannot join a scenario without there are at least 5 and a WB without the half warband are WP's.

Oh and I forgot that WP's aren't melee healers anymore. All they have to do is to equip their book, stand in the back and heal, while RP's and AM's gets kllied in few secs.

[Vannila]

I don't know why, but half the healers I knew are quitting or already gone.

They say RvR is not fun as a healer because they get Focused and die in 2 seconds. I know white lions kill our healers in 3-5 seconds on average....

Mythic...save our healers!!


White lions will be looked into, no dps class should kill healers in 3-5 seconds as they do now.

[Farshatok]

White lions will be looked into, no dps class should kill healers in 3-5 seconds as they do now.

No DPS class can kill a healer in 3 seconds. 3 seconds = 3 skills max. Which is an average 2k+ per skill used. It's hard to believe that they can do that (even in theory crafting)

[dumbo]

Why are healers quitting?
- a lot wish that they'd rolled a WP/DoK. Seriously, as a melee-healer you can 'mix it up' and maybe DPS for a bit - and no-one cares... you can also put out far higher healing than a pure healer. It may be balanced, but a lot of healers wish that they could do that.
- the repeated healing nerfs. Shields that were horribly bad, are now far worse. The heal+hot got hit by an unwarranted nerf. The spell lag. The increase in DPS etc.
- there is absolutely no point in having too many healers. If you have too many DoKs/WPs, that's fine. Have too many RPs/AMs -> you'll lose.
- there is absolutely no variety whatsoever. As a healer, you will stand in the back and heal-heal-heal. Every 5 seconds you can cleanse, otherwise it's heal-heal-heal. If you're an RP/zealot then you have even less variety as only a few heals are 'specced'. For group heals, nothing matters. For single-target heals it's whack-a-mole time.
- "cleansing" is rather pointless. You realise this when the list of debuffs on your friendly target have wrapped around several times, and you can remove one every 5 seconds.
- that healing becomes rather pointless. Probably the 'pinnacle' is discovering that when people sync their R4 morales, everyone drops dead. When people focus-fire, it's rez time. Rezzing is like buffing - it's not exactly interesting.

It's probably a combination of all of that, combined with witch-elves/hunters etc.

[Ayamo]

Why are healers quitting?
- you can also put out far higher healing than a pure healer. It may be balanced, but a lot of healers wish that they could do that.
-


Very situational, unless you have a group filled with good geared tanks/mara's who you can spam KE on:) And keep raids where everyone sticks close enough for the channeled heal, but thats seriously only a rp farmer.

Most other healing comes from the ability to spam tons and tons of hots without runnin out of SE, but a decent AP each second geared zealot can do the same.

Dok/wp in a decent group>other healers
Lone zealot>lone dok.

Hybrid healing is very powefull, but also very situational (as said above)

[Hedek]

The core issue is how fun they are to play. WP and DoK are a lot of fun. You can do a bit of everything, and it doesn't even matter if you don't excel at any. This is a game, not a job. I have a RR 50 WP. I can't tell you what spec I am because it changes all the time: I can spec salv and be a decent healer. I can spec grace and have fun hitting some and healing some. I can spec wrath and even if my dps isn't the best, I have a nasty burst dps every few seconds which can surprise any squishy that gets too close to my hammer.

As of late, I hardly ever see RP and zeaots in scenarios, and fewer and fewer archmages. More DoKs than before, and as many WP and shamans.

Except shamans, other non-melee healers just aren't fun. You spend your time staring at UI bars, and struggling to survive because you're the primary target. And when you're not the primary target, it's because the opposing party have a decent assist so they know they can simply go straight for the dps classes and hit them so hard that your heals are going to be useless (assist spike dps > spike healing).

And due to the nature and diversity of PvP types in WAR. You basically can go from a duel on your way to the fort from your warcamp, to an all out 2 WB vs 2 WB war, to a group vs group fight in a scenario. So any attempt to buff healing will make healers overpowered in small environments and the game simply not fun because no one dies outside of large scale battles.

Since healing figures can't be altered, the solution would be to give healers more offensive tools, and more "fun" spells, even useless spells, funny animations, like watching your target spin on itself, 1 feet above ground for 3 seconds instead of just a "disable".

Anything to make healers funny to play, and not the constant source of tension and frustration they are right now.

[Vannila]

No DPS class can kill a healer in 3 seconds. 3 seconds = 3 skills max. Which is an average 2k+ per skill used. It's hard to believe that they can do that (even in theory crafting)

There is movie with WL crits posted in several forums, abilities crit up to 2K, auto-attack up to 1.5K. They can have due to bug both +50% auto-attack speed constantly and + crit chance buff.
Plus their dot (tearing blade) apply each time they use popular abilities scale with strenght.

[dumbo]

Very situational, unless you have a group filled with good geared tanks/mara's who you can spam KE on:) And keep raids where everyone sticks close enough for the channeled heal, but thats seriously only a rp farmer.

Most other healing comes from the ability to spam tons and tons of hots without runnin out of SE, but a decent AP each second geared zealot can do the same.

Dok/wp in a decent group>other healers
Lone zealot>lone dok.

Hybrid healing is very powefull, but also very situational (as said above)

Not really sure it is very situational - or at least, it's a very common situation in scenarios/open-rvr.

Honestly, I don't think things are "that bad", but if you want a reason why pure healers are quitting, the fact that many healers feel that group healing is better performed by a melee-healer would be near the top. (you may disagree but that doesn't change the fact that many 'pure healers' feel like that).

Not really sure that anyone has proved that a huge number of pure healers are quitting anyway. I know a lot of people have rolled alts, and a few have quit. My only observation would be that there are practically no new pure healers in t1-t3.

[Ayamo]

Not really sure it is very situational - or at least, it's a very common situation in scenarios/open-rvr.

Honestly, I don't think things are "that bad", but if you want a reason why pure healers are quitting, the fact that many healers feel that group healing is better performed by a melee-healer would be near the top. (you may disagree but that doesn't change the fact that many 'pure healers' feel like that).

Not really sure that anyone has proved that a huge number of pure healers are quitting anyway. I know a lot of people have rolled alts, and a few have quit. My only observation would be that there are practically no new pure healers in t1-t3.


My server is still filled with zealots: > Less shamans tho, and the amount of RP's seems to be switched for WP's : <

[Vannila]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM8v0tKTeH4

for example
0:27-0:34

7 seconds to kill healer while some of this 7 seconds were spend chasing him (notice 1974 crit on final ability at 0:34)

I mean if Order healers complain about OP WE crits for 1.2k+, how would Destruction healers feel about nice White lion 1974 crits on abilities and 1500+ auto-attack crits hasted by +50%? Ofc some of them do quit, because such damage need be looked into by Mythic.

[Ayamo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM8v0tKTeH4

for example
0:27-0:34

7 seconds to kill healer while some of this 7 seconds were spend chasing him (notice 1974 crit on final ability at 0:34)


Haha, 1400+ crit spam even with his pet out.

[Vannila]

Haha, 1400+ crit spam even with his pet out.


White lions need a buff! /hides

[KatzenKratzen]

Since healing figures can't be altered, the solution would be to give healers more offensive tools, and more "fun" spells, even useless spells, funny animations, like watching your target spin on itself, 1 feet above ground for 3 seconds instead of just a "disable".

Yes they can. And funny animation won't really work, for me at least. I spend 75% of my battle time staring at the Squared hoting and trying to outheal and the other 25% of the time is picking the best position for current situation (especially one where I am able to LoS the RDPS)

[Hedek]

Not really sure that anyone has proved that a huge number of pure healers are quitting anyway. I know a lot of people have rolled alts, and a few have quit. My only observation would be that there are practically no new pure healers in t1-t3.

For the sake of this discussion, I don't think there's a difference between "quitting" and "rolling another class".

And your T1-T3 observation leaves little hope for the foreseeable future of T4 PvP: not only are there going to few new healers, even more of them are going to quit/reroll because they'll be facing much better geared dps classes than we used to when we first reached 40 with our healer toons.

[Ayamo]

White lions need a buff! /hides


Burn the heretic!

Serious note tho, this prooves the problem of all the WL's buffing for whines,

''I can 3 shot healers, but Mara's have better cc, so we suck''


:rolleyes:

[Hedek]

Serious note tho, this prooves the problem of all the WL's buffing for whines,

''I can 3 shot healers, but Mara's have better cc, so we suck''

You're raising a very sensible issue. And honestly, Mythic self-inflicted this due to questionable design decisions for a MMO that relies so much on RvR and thus RvR balance. Even if on the bigger picture, marauders and white lions are balanced (the argument applies to destruction and order as a whole), each have their own strengths which will prove more useful depending on the situation.

But naturally, we players will only notice it when it's not in our favor. And Mythic think they can get away with a "the grass is always greener, if you could see the bigger picture like we do, you'd see that in the end it all balances out".

Sorry but this is a game, we play second by second, we don't look at the bigger picture, so if something frustrates us, we might just quit, even if we're wrong. But us quitting > Mythic's logic. So they really should do something about this.

Same with healers, even if they are balanced enough, even if Mythic think they are where they want them to be in terms of power, even if ranged healers are well balanced compared to melee healers according to their own data. We, or at least I, as a gamer don't "perceive" it that way. I may be wrong, but if that leads me to quit the game, or roll another class, as unfair as that might be for Mythic, they have to suck up their "but our spreadsheets and worldwide statistics prove it's balanced!" and do something about it.

I'm not saying they should nerf or buff a class depending on who complains the loudest, but definitely that they should find incentives, or other smart ways to make us realize it's balanced. Some more dev communication explaining for instance how giving a free +10% parry boost to 3 Destro classes and 1 only Order class (WH WE DoK and Marauders) was balanced, or how satisfied they are with ranged healers.

Buffing renown gains for healing, adding influence gains for healing in RvR lakes, splitting all xp/renown/influence among the entire wb rather than simply group by group, and totally nerfing renown gains for solo healing would also help imo.

[Litholen]

Haha, 1400+ crit spam even with his pet out.
Allow me to pre-empt the MDPS response:

"Yeah - shame we can't see what the level difference was. Also, the healer did very little to prolong his life - not to mention turning and running (see the post someone made on the first page about positionality). And we can't tell if the Zealot had a healing debuff active, either (from an AM, for example), or if she had other debuffs on her."

Welcome to the life of a cloth healer in Warhammer, though. And yes, this is the reason you're seeing fewer clothie healers, if you are seeing fewer clothies, come end-game. Seven seconds isn't an absurdly short TTK on a clothie for any MDPS (with the possible exception of unassisted Marauders).

This is the point at which Order MDPS and Healers will post "The Zealot should have been on vent and called for help, and it shouldn't have turned its back to the WL's positionals". Destruction MDPS and Healers will say "Our MDPS can't take down Runepriests/AMs that fast - WLs are SO OP and need nerfing".

Someone will post a vid of an Archmage being taken down by a Witch Elf in similar Miller-time. Destruction MDPS and Healers will say "The Archmage should have been on vent and called for help, and it shouldn't have turned its back to the WE's positionals". Order MDPS and Healers will say "Our MDPS can't take down Shamans/Zealots that fast - WEs are SO OP and need nerfing".

And nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all, the needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before...

I could comment on it being ironic from a lore- perspective, since the majority of the clothie healers come from TT Hero units while the majority of MDPS are just TT expendable infantry, but some folks here wouldn't get the joke. They'd just assume I was whinging about not being able to cast on horseback, and begging for twice the hitpoints of the Witch Elf ;)

-L

[Umilard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM8v0tKTeH4

for example
0:27-0:34

7 seconds to kill healer while some of this 7 seconds were spend chasing him (notice 1974 crit on final ability at 0:34)

I mean if Order healers complain about OP WE crits for 1.2k+, how would Destruction healers feel about nice White lion 1974 crits on abilities and 1500+ auto-attack crits hasted by +50%? Ofc some of them do quit, because such damage need be looked into by Mythic.

I won't comment on WL since i don't have to fight them. But from fighting WE alot i would say it's not just the big crits that kill us.. It's the total amount of skillattacks, autoattacks, kisses and procs. Sometimes the damagenumbers flash so fast over my head that i can't even read them :p

Even tanks can hit me for close to 1000 in some hits but i will be surprised if a tank manage to take me down under 30 seconds solo. Hell, i'd be abit surprised if they can take me down at all..

[Ayamo]

Allow me to pre-empt the MDPS response:

"Yeah - shame we can't see what the level difference was. Also, the healer did very little to prolong his life - not to mention turning and running (see the post someone made on the first page about positionality). And we can't tell if the Zealot had a healing debuff active, either (from an AM, for example), or if she had other debuffs on her."

Welcome to the life of a cloth healer in Warhammer, though. And yes, this is the reason you're seeing fewer clothie healers, if you are seeing fewer clothies, come end-game. Seven seconds isn't an absurdly short TTK on a clothie for any MDPS (with the possible exception of unassisted Marauders).

This is the point at which Order MDPS and Healers will post "The Zealot should have been on vent and called for help, and it shouldn't have turned its back to the WL's positionals". Destruction MDPS and Healers will say "Our MDPS can't take down Runepriests/AMs that fast - WLs are SO OP and need nerfing".

Someone will post a vid of an Archmage being taken down by a Witch Elf in similar Miller-time. Destruction MDPS and Healers will say "The Archmage should have been on vent and called for help, and it shouldn't have turned its back to the WE's positionals". Order MDPS and Healers will say "Our MDPS can't take down Shamans/Zealots that fast - WEs are SO OP and need nerfing".

And nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all, the needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before...

I could comment on it being ironic from a lore- perspective, since the majority of the clothie healers come from TT Hero units while the majority of MDPS are just TT expendable infantry, but some folks here wouldn't get the joke. They'd just assume I was whinging about not being able to cast on horseback, and begging for twice the hitpoints of the Witch Elf ;)

-L


It doesn't change the fact that WL's are still acting as the victims while WE's are considered evil man in black suits.

I said it before, I can call 50 friends, let them all make nerf posts about something TOTALY redicilous, and everyone will think its OP. Its just bandwagon people, whining about a bandwagon thing.

[Farshatok]

You're raising a very sensible issue. And honestly, Mythic self-inflicted this due to questionable design decisions for a MMO that relies so much on RvR and thus RvR balance. Even if on the bigger picture, marauders and white lions are balanced (the argument applies to destruction and order as a whole), each have their own strengths which will prove more useful depending on the situation.

But naturally, we players will only notice it when it's not in our favor. And Mythic think they can get away with a "the grass is always greener, if you could see the bigger picture like we do, you'd see that in the end it all balances out".

Sorry but this is a game, we play second by second, we don't look at the bigger picture, so if something frustrates us, we might just quit, even if we're wrong. But us quitting > Mythic's logic. So they really should do something about this.

Same with healers, even if they are balanced enough, even if Mythic think they are where they want them to be in terms of power, even if ranged healers are well balanced compared to melee healers according to their own data. We, or at least I, as a gamer don't "perceive" it that way. I may be wrong, but if that leads me to quit the game, or roll another class, as unfair as that might be for Mythic, they have to suck up their "but our spreadsheets and worldwide statistics prove it's balanced!" and do something about it.

I'm not saying they should nerf or buff a class depending on who complains the loudest, but definitely that they should find incentives, or other smart ways to make us realize it's balanced.

So, what you're saying is that they should buff/nerf based on customer perception, not factual data?

Sadly, I have to agree with this. I was once told in the AM forums "I have no idea how balanced WE's are, but you will get nerfed on general perception no matter what". I think that if Mythic wants to stay true to their ideas, they should hand-pick a "public test server" with balanced population and classes and run all their ideas through said server(maybe a 25% discount to that population).

[Ayamo]

I won't comment on WL since i don't have to fight them. But from fighting WE alot i would say it's not just the big crits that kill us.. It's the total amount of skillattacks, autoattacks, kisses and procs. Sometimes the damagenumbers flash so fast over my head that i can't even read them :p




WL's do the same to my destro chars, really.


I wouldn't want to face a WE or Mara as tier 4 order healer, I don't want to face a WL or DECENT GEARED WH as destro healer either.

The problem is that 1 side is whining about it, the other side

[Litholen]

It doesn't change the fact that WL's are still acting as the victims while WE's are considered evil man in black suits.
Black bikinis ;)

The difference is in the percentages of WLs who reach 40 compared to WEs, or at least those who reached 40 within the first few weeks of release. I can't speak for all servers, obviously, but back home on Ellyrion only three WLs made it to 40 before the server transfers started, compared to at least twice that number of WEs.

After the move to the Disney server, the difference was even more marked, purely in number of people who played the class through to end-game. Waralytics has WEs at nigh on 2:1 40s compared to WLs. Now, WLs are being played through to end-game because people have realised how powerful they are. I'm actually starting to subscribe to the broken mirror philosophy that White Lions, and not Witch Hunters, are Order's equivalent of the Witch Elf, irrespective of mechanic differences.

As more WLs have reached end-game, the whines about WLs have increased dramatically - search for threads with 'Fetch' in the title and do a tally. Soon, they'll be as hated as WEs. And Mythic will probably nerf both classes into the ground to silence the whines. Which would be a shame, because I think they're both fine; rather, I think clothies need a bit of a work-up.

I said it before, I can call 50 friends, let them all make nerf posts about something TOTALY redicilous, and everyone will think its OP. Its just bandwagon people, whining about a bandwagon thing.
Do it and say Archmages and Zealots are OP. Seriously. I'd love to see the result XD

-L

[kbern]

Uhh, what?

1vs1 against a ranged class I always detaunt because if I'm not in melee I sure as hell dont want to be hit with the full force of his attacks. Also detaunting works great against WHs who usually try to spike you down in the same manner as a WE. Against other classes it can give you breathing room to cast heals on you even in the middle of combat. Say you do a 3 HoT rotation on yourself... would you NOT detaunt the enemy that will be hitting you for the whole time you cast those when you obviously are not hitting him back?

Detaunt is a powerful tool when used right.

You're right, it is situational and any all encompassing advice is wrong.

But from my WP stand point and even my RP if I am jumped by someone where I am getting no help, I am on offense and defense right away juggling my abilities so hitting the detaunt in those situations for me is just a split second of nothing before I am hitting them with my hammer or dropping an instant dot on them.

[kbern]

I think they're referring to the fact that detaunt breaks on damage, so if it's a 1v1 situation and you're actually trying to kill the other person, it's not as useful.

Granted, I'd still say it's useful at some times, such as either a) stacking dots and then detaunting, or b) detaunting to cast some heals on yourself, then going back to DPSing. But they're correct that detaunt isn't nearly as useful if you don't have other teammates helping you.

Someone understood what I mean. :D

[Marsares]

White lions will be looked into, no dps class should kill healers in 3-5 seconds as they do now.

Ah, good to see you again Vanilla. I see that you're still trying to push your agenda.

Did you inform the rest of the readers here that in your earlier theocrafting you came up some "math" on the basis of terrible flawed assumptions, including the following:

- WL crit's increasing damage with 100%, as opposed to 50%;
- WL slotting both Pack Synergy (which is dependant on having a pet) and Loner (which is dependant on not having a pet) tactics at the same time.

It's always nice to see people theorycraft numbers together on the basis of completely flawed information. Oh, did you also mention that you came up with the fictitious fact that BW's can crit for 114%?

I think people need to be informed about how you operate: randomly grab some "evidence" together and then litter the forum with it.

I hate to say it, but I'm calling troll.

Anyho, back on topic. Fact of the matter is, that healers are quiting. Again, I can't speak for Destro, but Order seriously lacks healers, especially in the lower tiers. RP's have received stealth nerf after stealth nerf, and many have shelved them, and AMs have been sub-par in survivability since CB.

The result: all you see in the lower tiers - on Burlok at least - are WP's and too many of them think they're pure MDPS unfortunately.

They need to increase the attractiveness of healers. I remember Mythic saying that we wouldn't get "I heal I heal I heal I heal". Well, try playing my AM. ;)

[Umilard]

WL's do the same to my destro chars, really.


I wouldn't want to face a WE or Mara as tier 4 order healer, I don't want to face a WL or DECENT GEARED WH as destro healer either.

The problem is that 1 side is whining about it, the other side

I claim BS, i see alot of whine from Destro :p You are just as good at it as we are..

And don't compare Marauder and WE. Sure, a wellgeared Marauder can take me down 1on1 but the time it takes is nowhere as fast as an WE. You won't see me compain about marauders, apart from AoE disorient (which is retarded). Atm they don't have the mobility and 1on1 damage of WL but superior AoE and cc. Accually, i would even buff the brutality spec for an option of better 1on1, that line seems abit lacking atm. Then WL would have better mobility and Marauder better cc, seems about right to me.

I can promise you this, if we were to switch WH and WE destro would be crying just as much as order :D And WEs isn't that much of an issue to me personally, sure i think they are overpowered but it's not gamebreaking to me. It's just one class after all.

The only big RvR issue for me atm is AoE disorients, a form of cc that gimp any character, have no immunitytimer, are only given to one realm (AoE that is) and on top of that it stacks. Even without them destro would have better cc.. All your MDPS have AoE knockdown/disable. Sure, the DoK one is a morale2 but it's a nasty one and does seem to override immunity sometimes.

[Gorky]

Bump.

I am a full healer. I cant kill anyone 1 on 1.

Sucks, i dont bother running when a class attacks me anymore. I just accept the fact that I am easy RP. Unless people protect me, i am helpless for the most part. Even my knockback doesnt help. It knocks me into the enemy or it simple does not push the enemy far away enough for me to be able to get away.

Also being specced as full healer, you would think that you could out heal the damage delt but that is not true at all. We can hardly heal the damage output for most classes and with so much CC abilities we are dead meat.

[DoctorTran]

Target healer.

Press the fetch/terrible embrace button.

Blindside/Insane Whispers.

Rinse and repeat.

No skill whatsoever (IWIN).

[Farshatok]

Bump.

I am a full healer. I cant kill anyone 1 on 1.



Don't use that sentence. "I can't survive anyone 1 on 1" is much better, it's only a difference of substance, but it can go a long way. What you said will give you the usual:
- Bring friends
- You should have rolled DPS if you want to kill

Now, surviving is what a healer is suppose to do. I'm still not sure how much a healer should survive in a 1v1, without making him OP, but it definitely needs to be a little longer than now. Also, the problem isn't purely 1v1, it's when the healer has just consumed his CD's and a DPS comes prepped with morales up. He should have the upper hand, but still give you a chance.

[nerfbat]

'I am a full healer. I cant kill anyone 1 on 1.'

Ok.... 'I am a full killer. I cant heal anyone.'

[schatt]

Ok.... 'I am a full killer. I cant heal anyone.'Incorrect, you could open a trade window and give them a healing potion. You have now healed someone. You could spec potion making and heal people through the magic of the auction house as well, with far greater rewards than most healers get at the end of the day.

What's this absolute fear some folks have about the possibility of losing a brawl against an equally geared, equally ranked healer? If anything, you'd think it'd make the game a little more challenging and fun for everyone involved. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you have had your butt handed to you by a warrior priest once or twice, yea?

Unfortunately this ends with them saying how the servers will explode or how people will start quitting the game... which by the looks of this thread is already happening for certain classes.

Personally, I say bring on the challenge. Let archmages and shaman rock that high magic/waaagh mechanic for what it's supposed to do and we all joyfully murder one another in random and unpredictable ways.

[Phuzz]

Just to be different. Im a (Shammy) healbot and its great fun most of the time. I also have an Order DPS alt for when i get bored.

As to not being able to 1v1 anyone - total horsepoo. Shammies can kill BW and (tank) IB 1v1 easily., and badly played SW. As well as some others on occasion.

We cant kill WL, WH etc for obvious reason. We're just not meant to.

However, give me some guildies im more survivable than almost every other class.

[nerfbat]

Incorrect, you could open a trade window and give them a healing potion. You have now healed someone. You could spec potion making and heal people through the magic of the auction house as well, with far greater rewards than most healers get at the end of the day.

What's this absolute fear some folks have about the possibility of losing a brawl against an equally geared, equally ranked healer? If anything, you'd think it'd make the game a little more challenging and fun for everyone involved. Usually ends with them saying how the servers will explode or how people will start quitting the game... which by the looks of this thread is already happening for certain classes.

Personally, I say bring on the challenge. Let archmages and shaman rock that high magic/waaagh mechanic for what it's supposed to do and we all joyfully murder one another in random and unpredictable ways.

If your seriously comparing passing around healing potions in mid rvr to a healer just healing then lol tbh.

As for being worried about losing to a healer in a 1v1 then no im fine with that, that is so long as they lose their group healing abilities to spec that way. There has to be a trade off, thats the way it works. Either that or give mdps/rdps group heal abilities and rezzes.

[Ayamo]

I claim BS, i see alot of whine from Destro :p You are just as good at it as we are..

.


Whines atm on this boards (the majority)

About WE's
About Mara CC
About Chosen aoe aura
AM's bein oh so bad compared to shamans.
WH's bein horribly gimped (lol)

Continue, honestly, I'm not saying destro doesn't complain, but on this boards, its 90% order.

[kbern]

Continue, honestly, I'm not saying destro doesn't complain, but on this boards, its 90% order.

And 75% of internet statistics are pulled out of the posters tush.:rolleyes:

[Marsares]

Whines atm on this boards (the majority)

About WE's
About Mara CC
About Chosen aoe aura
AM's bein oh so bad compared to shamans.
WH's bein horribly gimped (lol)

Continue, honestly, I'm not saying destro doesn't complain, but on this boards, its 90% order.

It could be of course because we have had three months of Destro whining on:

- BW damage, resulting in nerf and an unexpected nerf for Sorc as well;
- IB damage and knockback, resulting in a nerf;
- KotBS OYG, resulting in a nerf;

Not to mention the ongoing whinge threads about the RDPS of Order, and now more recently Fetch!, the WL MDPS, the superiority of RP's, the inferiority of Chosen and BG's compared to their mirrors, etc, etc. All that, whilst - other than the Sorc - we have yet to see a major nerf for Destro.

Not saying Order is better than Destro, just saying that you too paint an incredibly one-sided picture. ;)

[Karandor]

Just to further put this into perspective: The AM in my guild who had basically retired came back one wild healing and funnel essence were fixed (the 2nd funnel essence fix that made it so a fart in your direction wouldn't interrupt it) and started stacking toughness and wounds.

His base wounds/toughness is around 8k/400 right now and he cannot be killed by MDPS 1v1. I think when our grace spec WP plays with us his wounds are over 9k. With pots and our KotBS playing he can get his toughness up around 590. At that point he is unkillable except by extreme focus fire.

We've kept him up when 3 WEs jumped him. It's all about stacking toughness and wounds and having a group that pays attention and is in vent. A good group can focus and kill MDPS very easily. Then when they're dead you run towards the healers ressing them and 1 shot them when they get res'd.

The guy use to go down like a stripper at a bachelor party and now he likes to let non-40 WEs hit him saying "I want to show them how much they suck" and asking us NOT to help.

Now AMs still need work but in a good group with proper stat allocation they are quite good right now. Of course a runepriest with the same stat focus will be even harder to take down.

[schatt]

As for being worried about losing to a healer in a 1v1 then no im fine with that, that is so long as they lose their group healing abilities to spec that way. There has to be a trade off, thats the way it works. Either that or give mdps/rdps group heal abilities and rezzes.

There is a trade-off... they have to spec into that whole damage tree which would by it's very nature make their heals weaker. You do know they don't get an unlimited number of talent points, yea? Stacking intelligence at the cost of willpower, that'd be two trade-offs. They'd have far lower a parry, just because, and disrupt rates, due to lack of stacked willpower, so that's three. Considering they'd probably have to slot divine fury, there'd be an additional 15% reduction in healing as well. So we're up to four now.

How much more do they need to give up?

For a board labeled 'Class Balance' you'd think the people posting here would know something about classes or how they work. Ah well.

[Ayamo]

And 75% of internet statistics are pulled out of the posters tush.:rolleyes:


Thats why the 5% of people on the internet who DO have a brain do realise statistics like this are just a random PoV:rolleyes:

[Corbie]

It could be of course because we have had three months of Destro whining on:

- BW damage, resulting in nerf and an unexpected nerf for Sorc as well;
- IB damage and knockback, resulting in a nerf;
- KotBS OYG, resulting in a nerf;

Not to mention the ongoing whinge threads about the RDPS of Order, and now more recently Fetch!, the WL MDPS, the superiority of RP's, the inferiority of Chosen and BG's compared to their mirrors, etc, etc. All that, whilst - other than the Sorc - we have yet to see a major nerf for Destro.

Not saying Order is better than Destro, just saying that you too paint an incredibly one-sided picture. ;)

ZOOM! ZOOM! ZOOM!

Thank you Dr. John D. Dorian.

[nerfbat]

There is a trade-off... they have to spec into that whole damage tree which would by it's very nature make their heals weaker. You do know they don't get an unlimited number of talent points, yea? Stacking intelligence at the cost of willpower, that'd be two trade-offs. They'd have far lower a parry, just because, and disrupt rates, due to lack of stacked willpower, so that's three. Considering they'd probably have to slot divine fury, there'd be an additional 15% reduction in healing as well. So we're up to four now.

How much more do they need to give up?

For a board labeled 'Class Balance' you'd think the people posting here would know something about classes or how they work. Ah well.

And yet evidently you patently do not ;)

The class has the ability to spec for good group healing abilities and to pump out some dps. Now there are good players (see comments above) who are stacking the right stats and abilities and doing extremely well vs mdps. What you seem to be insinuating is that without losing any of their current heal abilities their dmg output should be increased. No is the simple answer to that one, any extra offense should come at a cost to lower their current group healing abilities.

[Astral]

What's this absolute fear some folks have about the possibility of losing a brawl against an equally geared, equally ranked healer? If anything, you'd think it'd make the game a little more challenging and fun for everyone involved. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you have had your butt handed to you by a warrior priest once or twice, yea?

Unfortunately this ends with them saying how the servers will explode or how people will start quitting the game... which by the looks of this thread is already happening for certain classes.

Personally, I say bring on the challenge. Let archmages and shaman rock that high magic/waaagh mechanic for what it's supposed to do and we all joyfully murder one another in random and unpredictable ways.

schatt, you bring a common sense and temperament sorely missing from the recent trending of this thread. There's no good reason why any class should be a free kill to any other. I can't imagine how it could be so unbearable for an RR65 Archmage in full Invader to give a similarly ranked Witch Elf a decent challenge. It's boggling to imagine how the hardcore rock-paper-scissors-MDPS (in which MDPS beats rock, paper, or scissors) can defend a situation in which fully half of their opponents are fodder.

It's not by design. It's by error.

[Ayamo]

schatt, you bring a common sense and temperament sorely missing from the recent trending of this thread. There's no good reason why any class should be a free kill to any other. I can't imagine how it could be so unbearable for an RR65 Archmage in full Invader to give a similarly ranked Witch Elf a decent challenge. It's boggling to imagine how the hardcore rock-paper-scissors-MDPS (in which MDPS beats rock, paper, or scissors) can defend a situation in which fully half of their opponents are fodder.

It's not by design. It's by error.


The problem is , mythic believes in their rock sizzor game, and somewhere I have to agree with them. In a game where teamwork should be promoted its an absolute must to stick to the system.

However, healers atm are the real victims of this system as you stated. Healers are rock, but for some of them there just isn't any sizzor.

[schatt]

The class has the ability to spec for good group healing abilities and to pump out some dps.

Two classes actually, warrior priests and disciple of khaine. Serious damage potential with fantastic group heals.

I wouldn't call dots that tick off for around fourty-five points or so, after resists, from shaman and archmages 'some dps'. I'd refer to it as 'poor', 'loltastic' or even 'a pointless waste of ap'. See, they have this mechanic known as high magic or waaagh respectively, that's supposed to encourage kicking the odd behind. Shaman use it for a free ap steal and I have no idea what archmages use it for, if at all.

Now there are good players (see comments above) who are stacking the right stats and abilities and doing extremely well vs mdps.

Standing there chain-healing one's self is not doing 'extremely well', it's just standing there chain healing yourself. Has nothing to do with the class mechanic nor anything to do with the class description.

What you seem to be insinuating is that without losing any of their current heal abilities their dmg output should be increased.

Warrior priests and disciples of khaine just received a boost to both their healing and damage potential all in one go. They're now feared on the battlefield, for both their offense and their ability to keep a group going. Rightfully so, ever class should pose a threat all by it's lonesome to any and every other class. Makes for a better game.

No is the simple answer to that one, any extra offense should come at a cost to lower their current group healing abilities.

Mythic, along with the warrior priest and disciple of khaine classes as they stand now disagree with your preposterous hypothesis entirely. The fact that they spend talent points in their offensive trees which would by it's very nature make their healing abilities weaker than someone who chose to spec for healing would render you point entirely moot and quite foolish indeed.

You're trying to make it sound like you know something about class balance, yet all I'm hearing is a great deal of fear regarding the rainbow lazers and a loss of your favourite renown pinatas. Live a little man.

[djohn138]

Just by the posts from NON Healing classes justifying their ownage over healers it proves healing is a thankless job.
I rerolled a RP wanna know why?
NO ONE PLAYS THEM!
Everytime I try to log in my old main I cant even tolerate it because we have no healers besides WPs that just have themselves targeted the entire time.
The healers (BESIDES WP/DOK FFS)need a fix of some kind to make people want to play them.
Also Mythic needs to a giant label when explaining any tank class to the player THAT THEIR JOBS IS TO PROTECT HEALERS!
They ARENT DPS they are meant to storm the lines and toss healers or protect their own.
I mean as a healer should we have to explain to a tank that we need to be guarded if they want to win?
Also wtf is with the lowbee Mdps classes spamming for rez just to die and saying somehow we suck lol?

[nerfbat]

schatt, you bring a common sense and temperament sorely missing from the recent trending of this thread. There's no good reason why any class should be a free kill to any other. I can't imagine how it could be so unbearable for an RR65 Archmage in full Invader to give a similarly ranked Witch Elf a decent challenge. It's boggling to imagine how the hardcore rock-paper-scissors-MDPS (in which MDPS beats rock, paper, or scissors) can defend a situation in which fully half of their opponents are fodder.

It's not by design. It's by error.

Yes there is, its called group support abilities. The fact of the matter is that its a SUPPORT CLASS. Now yes its an old argument but the point of effect is that you, yes you the healer are the most beneficial support prof there is, end of. You can keep your team alive, rez, and generally effect the outcome of your team like no other class can. Now to gain all that 'team power' you have had to lose out on 1v1 abilities, but is that such a pain? Sure you cant walk about rvr lakes on your own and burn down 1v1 oppos but..so what?

And no its been pointed out that we wouldnt have any problem with a well played, well speced out aM taking down and mdps 1v1, BUT the proviso would have to be that the aM is now considered as much of a 1v1 toon as say the We he just killed is. That means that you cant heal your group anymore, THATS CALLED BALANCE. You have to make a choice, by chosing a healer you are chosing to (shock horror) heal others. By chosing mdps I have foregone the ability to effect my group in the way a healer can, but I have greater survivability then an AM in 1v1.

You CANNOT have a group buffing class to the extent of a healer that is also able to 1v1 as well as a none group buffing class. Look at the table beloe and tell me if it looks lopsided:

AM WE
Group Heals : Yes Group Heals: No
1v1 Killing : Yes 1v1 Killing : Yes

See whats wrong with your picture?

Now lets take the R/P/S argument. R/P/S doesnt mean that with no skill involved one calls is 100% certain to kill another. Infact you will find that in 99% of rvr unless there are multiple mobs trying to ff down the healer, then the good ones manage to surive long enough for their team to kill the mdps attacking them. This is especially the case if the mdps in question is not a skilled player. Now R/P/S in this situation is what its all about, you see without it a group dependacy game (which is what WAr is) will have no balance whatsoever.

Its amazing to see how people can try and justify having their cake and eating it, whilst still proclaiming to have the 'moral highground' in someway. Does every AM that every gets attacked by an mpds in rvr (not 1v1 all rvr) get killed? No. If you want the ability to wander about and 1v1 players then you become and 'independant' like a WE, and 'independants' have no reason to have group buffs, so fine you want more 1v1 ability, then for the sake of balance you better lose all your heals.

[Astral]

The problem is , mythic believes in their rock sizzor game, and somewhere I have to agree with them. In a game where teamwork should be promoted its an absolute must to stick to the system.

Teamwork doesn't go out the window just because the rock-paper-scissor equation is relaxed. Ideally, the tools for both offense and defense would be better spread amongst the classes.

The most compelling example is that of Witch Elves and Marauders. Both classes have every single tool they'd need to viably combat every other class. Armor ignores, AP drains, healing debuffs, massive cast setbacks or disorients, silence, stuns, armor debuffs, initiative debuffs, and more -- each category here posessed by both Witch Elves and Marauders. There is no force multiplication factor involved with Destruction MDPS; there's only force addition -- pair a Witch Elf with a Marauder, and they're no more powerful together than they are alone. If, for example, Witch Elves could debuff healing but not armor, and Marauders could debuff armor but not healing, then the pairing of a Witch Elf and a Marauder is now a multiplicative effect; each is more powerful together than they are alone. Spread factors of this design throughout all aspects of offense and defense and now you have a far more interesting game in which teamwork is still important, but in which no class has to be helpless against another.

It's not an "absolute must" to stick to a stringent rock-paper-scissors system in order to facilitate teamwork. It's a lazy design for lazy players.

[gixxz]

Games that require teamplay are not capable for causal players, as you can see from all the "Nerf Class XX" in this forums.

Because nearly all things which are called "OP" are easy to overcome with simple teamplay!

[schatt]

You CANNOT have a group buffing class to the extent of a healer that is also able to 1v1 as well as a none group buffing class. Look at the table beloe and tell me if it looks lopsided:

AM WE
Group Heals : Yes Group Heals: No
1v1 Killing : Yes 1v1 Killing : YesAgain, such utter absurdity.

Warrior priest... group heals: great ones of various kinds
Warrior priest... -kicking potential 1v1: stellar

Disciple of Khaine... group heals: great ones of various kinds
Disciple of Khaine... -kicking potential 1v1: stellar

Fun factor: High, as witnessed by number of people playing the class in lower tiers.

Archmage... group heals: sure
Archmage... -kicking potential: lulz

Shaman... group heals: sure
Shaman... -kicking potential: lulz

Fun factor: see entire thread.

I'm not entirely sure how zealots and rune priests function, but considering that Rune Priests kick out elemental damage and a Zealot's is spirit based, I'd imagine it's even more loltastic and pointless than the two classes I have been talking about.

Games that require teamplay are not capable for causal players

I play in a softball league that pretty much revolves around getting sloshed by the third inning.

[nerfbat]

Two classes actually, warrior priests and disciple of khaine. Serious damage potential with fantastic group heals.

I wouldn't call dots that tick off for around fourty-five points or so, after resists, from shaman and archmages 'some dps'. I'd refer to it as 'poor', 'loltastic' or even 'a pointless waste of ap'. See, they have this mechanic known as high magic or waaagh respectively, that's supposed to encourage kicking the odd behind. Shaman use it for a free ap steal and I have no idea what archmages use it for, if at all.



Standing there chain-healing one's self is not doing 'extremely well', it's just standing there chain healing yourself. Has nothing to do with the class mechanic nor anything to do with the class description.



Warrior priests and disciples of khaine just received a boost to both their healing and damage potential all in one go. They're now feared on the battlefield, for both their offense and their ability to keep a group going. Rightfully so, ever class should pose a threat all by it's lonesome to any and every other class. Makes for a better game.



Mythic, along with the warrior priest and disciple of khaine classes as they stand now disagree with your preposterous hypothesis entirely. The fact that they spend talent points in their offensive trees which would by it's very nature make their healing abilities weaker than someone who chose to spec for healing would render you point entirely moot and quite foolish indeed.

You're trying to make it sound like you know something about class balance, yet all I'm hearing is a great deal of fear regarding the rainbow lazers and a loss of your favourite renown pinatas. Live a little man.

1. WP's and DoK's are not classic 'healers'. They are also a hell of alot easer to balance then a ranged variant of those profs would be. the fact that you have brought them into the mix now shows you are not sure of exactly what you are asking for.

2. Chain healing yourself? Its a missuse of the term but nvm. If though you think that there is no diference between good and bad healers (which considering the quote you used you are) then it certainly demonstrates as to why you are arguing in this thread.

3. Once again WP's and DoK's are a diferent kettle of fish. And whilst their abilites to heal themselves may be excellent, their range heals, heal power and rez abilites are not as good. You will also find alot of people complaining about the book/chalice mechanics and these classes in general.

4. No, DoK's and WP's can pump out close range hots and heal themselves very effectively, but as mentioned you will see that their actually snap healing abilites are not as great as other healers.

If and AM or Shammy wants to mimick a DoK that will be interesting. You see youd lose alot of your healing power and your hots etc would tick on those only in the close proximity of yourselves. Now as a ranged class that wouldnt be many people would it?

The very fact you are directly comparing melee/medium armourd HoT healers to light armoured, ranged more group centric healers shows you know squat frankly.
As for your 'live a little' line, what exactly is that supposed to back up? The fact is im all for a challenge, thats what makes a game fun. But totally borking up group combat mechanics does not a fun game make..... Think a little is the advice i'll profer back ;)

[Astral]

And no its been pointed out that we wouldnt have any problem with a well played, well speced out aM taking down and mdps 1v1, BUT the proviso would have to be that the aM is now considered as much of a 1v1 toon as say the We he just killed is. That means that you cant heal your group anymore, THATS CALLED BALANCE. You have to make a choice, by chosing a healer you are chosing to (shock horror) heal others. By chosing mdps I have foregone the ability to effect my group in the way a healer can, but I have greater survivability then an AM in 1v1.
Really? You think that's the game Mythic either advertised or wanted to give us? If so, I might accuse you of not having thought very hard at all. Mythic doesn't want healbots. Mythic doesn't want helpless healers. Mythic may very well eventually shape the game such that it better fits their vision.

You CANNOT have a group buffing class to the extent of a healer that is also able to 1v1 as well as a none group buffing class. Look at the table beloe and tell me if it looks lopsided:

AM WE
Group Heals : Yes Group Heals: No
1v1 Killing : Yes 1v1 Killing : Yes

See whats wrong with your picture?
That's not my picture; that's your picture -- and it's not a picture, it's a strawman. If there were only two elements in the entirety of the game's combat -- group heals, and 1v1 killing -- then maybe you'd have a point. But guess what? There's more to the game than group heals and 1v1 killing. There are debuffs, crowd controls, buffs, mobility, survivability, rate of damage dealt, and countless other facets to consider when evaluating balance.

Put a stop to the extremism and mischaracterization of argument and you might eventually make a worthwhile point.

[Ayamo]

Where is this fantastic healing when I'm runnin around with tactics that reduce my healing by a wooping 40% and strenght gear?

Where is that wooping dps when I'm walking around in healing gear and healing tactics?

We have the option to either one of em, or both when people are actually hugging us in pve envoriments, but in pvp there isn't something as amazing dps, and amazing (group) healing. Having the choice for either of em isn't doing both of em at the same time, please cut the myth, self healing isn't the same.

[Omaani]

I'm not entirely sure how zealots and rune priests function, but considering that Rune Priests kick out elemental damage and a Zealot's is spirit based, I'd imagine it's even more loltastic and pointless than the two classes I have been talking about.


I play in a softball league that pretty much revolves around getting sloshed by the third inning.

From my experience as a zealot in T3, it wasn't really all that worth doing damage because it was rather poor and I ended up running out of AP faster than just purely healing. The only exception would be demon spittle which was a good way to get a weak DoT on things that needed to be dotted (such a stealthy WH).

---

Personally...I think people are not playing AM/Shams/Zeals/RPs because they are pretty much too straight forward. There was once a big thread in combat discussion that debated about this.

For many spells with zeals/rps , they are just toss and heals. Nothing much really flavorful about it. Except maybe a spell in a talent tree, most of them are reactive and just requires you to toss it out. For many, its not very engaging except in some situations. There spells themselves are pretty plain jane so to speak. If you have been a healer in other games, its some what "been there, done that." For some, there is nothing wrong with that, but a lot of people seem to be tired of the whole "been there done that" with healers and want to see more.

I personally havent played AM/Shams so I can only spout from what I read. However, the theory behind the high magic/waggh thing sounds good on paper...but in practice it just dosnt work all that well. The fact is also tempered that the gear and skills do not really align to the system either. However, its a good start in my opinion. It just needs more careful looked at on either the skills themselves or the trees that need to align to both sides rather than one side or the other.

And then the WP/DoKs. While I am sure some play them because of the FOTMness they might have, they have you mostly run up to do demage and, as a result, lets you heal. In comparison to the other two types, these hybrid healers feel the most engaging in terms of the battle. You have this soul essense or power to have to balance upon. You can get in and smack somebody 4 times in the head and a good chunk of damage is healed to your defensive target. For many people, a WP/DoK is actually, well, fun! Once you play these two classes, it can really feel like the other two archetypes are really just..well..shallow.

I dont know if the other two types need a full rehaul (I dont think they do) but they could use more attractive spells. Maybe the high magic/waagh do something different on the same spell rather than having it buff the damage side if you use a healing spells a lot. For instance, the main heal might add a temp fire shield if a shamans mork (I think thats the damage side) if its built up. A damage spell might heal 50% to a defensive target if gork is up. RP/Zeals could get more entertaining spells that might require some kind of effect already placed or something like that.

Bare in mind, many of these ideas arent exactly mine as I had mentioned before these were mentioned in another thread. I am just mearly passing the ideas along.

[schatt]

WP's and DoK's are not classic 'healers'.None of the healing classes in the game are 'classic' healers. High Magic and Waaagh exist for a reason. The damage trees exist for a reason. The fact they gain a benefit to their damage potential through the stacking of intelligence exists for a reason.

Once again WP's and DoK's are a diferent kettle of fish. And whilst their abilites to heal themselves may be excellent, their range heals, heal power and rez abilites are not as good.Yea... 150 yard range heals that don't require line of sight and roll off for 2k a tick just suck compared to Isha's Blessing or Bigger Better Greener. Sure they need something to beat on, but that's what engineer turrets, magus demons, squigs and lions are for. Failing that, witch elves and witch hunters or idiot casters who run into a group thinking having close quarters slotted is going to accomplish anything. Worse comes to worse you drop a Greave of Sigmar on a tank and go to work on him.

And Martyr's Blessing... most useless spell ever! I have no idea what the Disciple of Khaine mirror is, or if they even get one, but this one man will flat out win a group brawl all by it's lonesome.

Ask a shaman or archmage how thrilled they are about they're awesome rezzing abilities.

The very fact you are directly comparing melee/medium armourd HoT healers to light armoured, ranged more group centric healers shows you know squat frankly.If archmages and shaman are 'more group centric' as you put it, why are their group heals limited to smaller number of players than a warrior priest or disciple of khaine's are? You'd figure that'd be reversed. I mean, archmages get a single group heal, with the second being a r4 morale. You'd figure archmages and shaman would have a superior range of group buffs, yet they don't. At the very least they'd have more than one, wouldn't they? Warrior priests and Disciples get three bog standard and the former get an additional one they can spec for. Nice ones too.

The only reason shaman and archmages are more 'group centric' is due to the fact their class mechanic is borked beyond useless which no one uses it outside of an instant ap drain and they're utterly free kills on their own.

That doesn't translate as 'group centric', it's reads as a straight up terrible state of affairs for the class. Seriously, shaman and archmages are some of the scariest units in Warhammer and we are playing Warhammer, not rock, paper and suck.

[thylantyr]

I don't know why, but half the healers I knew are quitting or already gone.

They say RvR is not fun as a healer because they get Focused and die in 2 seconds. I know white lions kill our healers in 3-5 seconds on average....

Mythic...save our healers!!

People leave the game and/or switch classes because they
are bored. It's not limited to just healers. ;) Have you played
MMO's in the past ? :confused:

On my server there is too much healing and if I had it my
way, I'd design a new healing mechanic that makes more
sense (read less burst healing). ;) :cool:

[Litholen]

If your seriously comparing passing around healing potions in mid rvr to a healer just healing then lol tbh.

As for being worried about losing to a healer in a 1v1 then no im fine with that, that is so long as they lose their group healing abilities to spec that way. There has to be a trade off, thats the way it works. Either that or give mdps/rdps group heal abilities and rezzes.

While I personally agree that a ranged DPS healer should not be designed for 1 on 1 melee combat, that is a somewhat flippant response to the case viz. potions. As I said in a previous post, healing can be temporarily substituted by endgame potions. I can brew potions on my T3 DoK alt that easily outheal my endgame Boon of Hysh in PvP gear.

This feeds into the argument about interdependency of classes - that interdependency in and of itself is implemented in an imbalanced fashion; healers rely on tanks more than MDPS rely on healers. Healers rely on MDPS more than MDPS rely on tanks. Healers rely on other healers more than MDPS rely on other MDPS.

You yourself have pointed out that the WE's burst TTK is necessary due to the time the class spends away from the pack, and therefore away from healing. It needs the facility to do its job without reliance on other classes.

Healers do not have that luxury - and if the view is that we are meant to be wholly reliant on others to survive an encounter with our hard counter, then by necessity it must be the case that other classes' interdependencies are increased to bring them in line with ours. Or the game will always be inherently imbalanced.

Personally, I don't want that. Why would I want to make other people's enjoyment of the game predicated wholly and utterly on the playstyle of their groupmates? Having suffered that myself, it'd be somewhat sadistic to wish it on you. Rather, I'd like to see a couple of survival buffs for clothie healers.

Yes there is, its called group support abilities. The fact of the matter is that its a SUPPORT CLASS. Now yes its an old argument but the point of effect is that you, yes you the healer are the most beneficial support prof there is, end of. You can keep your team alive, rez, and generally effect the outcome of your team like no other class can.
Chicken and egg argument. Quis custodiet ipsos custodios? Who's more important to the group? Healer One? Or Healer Two who heals Healer One? Or the Tank who protects Healer Two who heals Healer One? Or the RDPS who covers the Tank who protects Healer Two who heals Healer One? Or Healer One who heals the RDPS who covers the Tank who protects Healer Two who heals Healer One?

And no its been pointed out that we wouldnt have any problem with a well played, well speced out aM taking down and mdps 1v1, BUT the proviso would have to be that the aM is now considered as much of a 1v1 toon as say the We he just killed is. That means that you cant heal your group anymore, THATS CALLED BALANCE.
I would actually agree with that assessment, although the game mechanics already account for it. All group-heal abilities are part of the healing tree. To 1on1, a clothie healer would need to go DPS (since burst DPS > burst healing in Warhammer). Those are all points he doesn't put into his healing tree, thereby nerfing the output of his group healing spells. The Archmage, of course, only has two group heals - one core, one T4 morale in the healing tree. It's the WP/DoK who get the group HoT.

Now lets take the R/P/S argument. R/P/S doesnt mean that with no skill involved one calls is 100% certain to kill another. R/P/S in this situation is what its all about, you see without it a group dependacy game (which is what WAr is) will have no balance whatsoever.

First off, R/P/S is what belies the interdependency because interdependency is not balanced, and R/P/S is not balanced. Scissors cut paper - and you do it very well, in Miller Time. Rock beats scissors - still quickly enough, if they're spec'd right for it, but taking slightly longer than Miller Time - we'll call this Guiness Time.

Paper? Well, paper can beat rock - but it isn't as guaranteed an outcome as scissors vs. paper, or even rock vs. scissors. And if paper does beat rock, it takes significantly longer than Miller Time; significantly longer than Guiness Time. We shall call this Glenfiddich Time.

The response to this is "the game isn't balanced for 1v1". You can't use R/P/S as an argument if the game isn't balanced for 1v1. At that point, you're falling onto vague, handwavey arguments about perceptual R/P/S - and once you're onto perceptual R/P/S, the entire system becomes fuzzy.

In that situation, the AM 'counters' tanks by healing. The WE counters the AM by killing him. The tank counters the WE by stonewalling them. And thus, by your argument, the WE can never be allowed to bypass the Tank's stonewalling if she is spec'd to kill the AM. To spec to kill a tank (armour mitigation, etc.) the WE must lose her ability to kill the Archmage. Of course, she doesn't, and it'd be silly if she did. But that's the logic.

so fine you want more 1v1 ability, then for the sake of balance you better lose all your heals

Thus the logic follows that if the AM must lose all Paper abilities to succeed in Rock's territory (to counter Scissors), the WE must lose all its Scissors abilities to succeed in Paper's territory (to counter Rock).

As I say, I don't want the ability to win 1 on 1. I want the ability to leg it like a little cissy, and for legging it to save me - because if I've legged it, I'm neutralised, meaning that Scissors has done its job.

-L

[kbern]

People really need to stop the ridiculous SUPPORT CLASS tag to support their arguments.

Sorry, no one is your support class. You are not the hero and healers are not your sidekick.

That is exactly what support class denotes...they are there to "support" the real players.

Every class should be able to stand alone in its own way...no one should be relegated to simply supporting other people while they play. It's a laughable and very outdated way to justify why one class can consistently dominate others.

[Nurgling]

WAR is A darn TEAM play game where lessers teams via group balance or cordination really get pummeled.

It's a convenient argument and very true, except that it applies literally only to healers. Any non-ranged healer class gets a whiff of me, I'm dead w/o support quick. Oyu don't need a team to do what you do. Having a team properly support you would just make your life even better than it is, not making your life barely aceptable as it does for healers.

Let's make it a true team game then! Let's say, all mdps positional attacks and CCs require a HoT to be on the mdps for them to be used?

Say tanks do 1/2 damage when they don't have a healer guarded?

WE/WHs can't use their finishers unless a healer has their debuff on the target?

Those seem like a decent equivalencies. Oh that wouldn't be fun? Hmmm.

[Chakraa]

"There will NOT be any namby pamby healer only classes, there is no sitting in the back going "and i heal and i heal and i heal and i heal" CUZ ITS BORING.im realy sorry, if your really 1 of those people who just likes being a medic who likes sitting at the back NOT doing anything and going" and i heal and i..."*deafening silence*
GO AWAY!! stop watching click away. dont even leave a comment on the board going "I HATE THIS GAME BECAUSE IT HAS NO HEALERS" because were telling you now we are not the game for you. were the game for the people who wants to matter EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER CAN DO DMG."

-Paul Barnett

[Slizzy]

People leave the game and/or switch classes because they
are bored. It's not limited to just healers. ;) Have you played
MMO's in the past ? :confused:

On my server there is too much healing and if I had it my
way, I'd design a new healing mechanic that makes more
sense (read less burst healing). ;) :cool:

Yes, I have been playing MMO's since 1999.

Asherons Call 1
DAOC
SWG
EVE online
Asherons Call 2
World of Warcraft

and now WAR.

How about yourself?

I also beta tested for the majority of said games.

It's not just people quitting the MMO, it's healers that I know that have re-rolled, or just stopped playing because healers are pretty much free RP for DPS classes.

My guild went from having 7-10 healers on per night, to 2-3 any given night and it's a trend I have seen from many other guilds/players that I have discussed this with.

[RealBigKitty]

I only play Destro, and have a decent T3 shaman, and have created and tried variations of each healing class. They are all lower level right now (T1-2) but I am trying them BECAUSE our server needs healers and support classes.

See what I did there? I used "support" like a positive thing. BOTH sides need to realize the value of support, instead of acting like oversensitive sidekicks OR acid-tongued MAIN classes. No building, structure, or system stands for long without support.

Support also needs upkeep and care. I think what the OP started and has become lost is that healers are quitting because they are not having fun. It doesn't matter WHY, but if it IS true that their populations are low, stop and look at why? Some of Mythic's fault? Likely. But also accept some responsibility. When was the last time you honestly provided upkeep and care for your "support"?

I initially believed that tanks were there to protect healers. I think they CAN, but they SHOULD be in the front lines protecting EVERYONE. "Supported" by mDPS and ranged, sprinkled with healers. EVERYONE needs to protect healers, like the healers are expected to heal everyone. I love this game, but RvR is a renown grab, where scenario goals and team play is IGNORED in order to rack up as much RP as possible. This is Mythic's problem, but is reflected and multiplied by a greedy and self-absorbed player base.

I have read high level healers get great renown. This is not the case in lower tiers. We work our asses off, get crap renown, and get YELLED at (while often, not always, unsupported) by the people pushing to KILL KILL KILL and ignoring the clothie running around in the mess trying to stay alive.

No support = no fun.
Being yelled at = no fun.
Low survivability = no fun (allow me to address this in a sec).
Reduced functionality (also see below) = no fun.
I won't even put in how much "no fun" it is to TRY and play a DPS specced Shammy (or I would guess AM) when your own team figures it out.

This is why we quit. Think about how you *could* make things better for a healer WHILE doing what your class is designed to do.

And my main suggestion is look at the mechanics of how healers play. Can we do DPS? Sure. If you want to do true rDPS damage as a hybrid, the mistake is your own, not Mythics. But this thread was about HEALERS quitting.

Healers need better and more variable spells. 5 different HoT's and a few bursts are NOT situational. While I don't think this should be LIKE WoW, I will use my Discipline priest as an example. I LOVE to play him, because I can zing HoT's, big heals, area heals, when-they-get-hit-they-get-hp heals, good shields, etc. I have many GOOD choices, that make it fun to pick the best for the situation. AND my Disc priest is a beeyotch to kill. Of course a healer that is chain healing themselves isn't contributing. But they don't contribute when they're dead either, and in this game detaunt/flee/chain heals are their only chance. My Disc priest is fun, and often times the last one standing. 1v1 is a rough fight if I want to "win", but surviving is always OK. But I have FUN playing him, and always will.

I would like the same feeling here. And I think that's what many of the healers leaving are lacking. So stop fighting with one another over semantics and "facts", and let's try and compile a list of "ways to improve the healer population and make it fun again." THEN maybe the Dev's will take it seriously. Use one voice instead of this chicken yard bickering. We agree, healers are not a lot of fun. Let's work (ourselves, not just Mythic) to make them "fun" again.

*crash* <falls off soapbox>

[kbern]

I only play Destro, and have a decent T3 shaman, and have created and tried variations of each healing class. They are all lower level right now (T1-2) but I am trying them BECAUSE our server needs healers and support classes.

See what I did there? I used "support" like a positive thing. BOTH sides need to realize the value of support, instead of acting like oversensitive sidekicks OR acid-tongued MAIN classes. No building, structure, or system stands for long without support.

Support also needs upkeep and care.

And that was also part of my point. EVERYONE is there to support their team. No one is specifically a support class.

Tanks could be support because they are need to help the healers, same as the DPS.

Everyone supports each other but to pigeon hole healers as support classes only is a clear example of why many people do not like to play them.

I have 2 RP's on the same account so I have no problem healing but for a healer to do their job, they need the support from everyone else, ya know, those other "support" classes, tanks and DPS.

[RealBigKitty]

"For example, if the death penalty were to become harsher, do you think we’d see as many kamikaze witch elves? Or do you think the community would be accepting of healers not pulling their weight?"

The above phrase I just pulled from another post on a totally unrelated thread. THIS is what I am talking about when I mention that the responsibility for healers leaving is as much the players' as Mythic...

[Farshatok]

"For example, if the death penalty were to become harsher, do you think we’d see as many kamikaze witch elves? Or do you think the community would be accepting of healers not pulling their weight?"

The above phrase I just pulled from another post on a totally unrelated thread. THIS is what I am talking about when I mention that the responsibility for healers leaving is as much the players' as Mythic...

Harsher death penalty =

1) Costs more. I like the fact that this game is cheap, I'm not the farmer type (don't really have the class for it either:)). Sometimes you will die a lot in RvR and spending 20 gold for some keep fun isn't really a solution
2) Death debuff is made unremovable. This will give both dead players down time, which, again, is not fun.

And there will still be kamikazes (not only WE's can do that), because you're a priority target. I understand it's not fun for healers, but you should also get the bitter flattery that's behind your deaths. It's not that you're free RP (BW/Sorc is easier to kill), it's that you're important.

I've won tons of scenarios w/o tanks, I've even taken a keep without a tank. But I've rarely had success without healers and it was all situational. I'm one of those "in your face" guys that can't really play a healer because my head explodes looking at the health bars, so I have a lot of respect for those that can heal. And do it.

[Imi]

Disciples of Khaine and Warrior Priests are much easier to play when you ignore your mechanic. "Oh, hi there Book/Chalice! Want to break my game mechanic with me?"

I love it when people keep posting this.
If your WP/DOK is not running out of juice (EVEN with a purple book/chalice) they are not healing enough. Period.

RF/Blood is not an endless pool, even with a 12 regen / second, if the player has any semblance of skill he can empty is quite skillfully in PVP and PVE. Those WPs and Doks that just toss a heal here and there ofcourse never run out, but they arent the ones saving your lives either.

[kbern]

I love it when people keep posting this.
If your WP/DOK is not running out of juice (EVEN with a purple book/chalice) they are not healing enough. Period.

RF/Blood is not an endless pool, even with a 12 regen / second, if the player has any semblance of skill he can empty is quite skillfully in PVP and PVE. Those WPs and Doks that just toss a heal here and there ofcourse never run out, but they arent the ones saving your lives either.

Could not agree more. I always want to be a fly on the wall watching these people to see WHY they never run out of RF because it is not because of the book.

[Raynos]

I don't know why, but half the healers I knew are quitting or already gone.

They say RvR is not fun as a healer because they get Focused and die in 2 seconds. I know white lions kill our healers in 3-5 seconds on average....

Mythic...save our healers!!

Healers need less ways to feel defenseless. It shouldn't be death in 3-5 seconds if a DPS is on you. You should be able to survive 20-30 seconds easily against one DPS if you have equal gear/skills.

[rain9441]

You should be able to survive 20-30 seconds easily against one DPS if you have equal gear/skills.

Wrong. If a healer cannot last indefinitely against an equally geared/skilled player, the healer is dead weight.

Absolute predetermined death of a healer is a bad thing.

[KatzenKratzen]

Wrong. If a healer cannot last indefinitely against an equally geared/skilled player
That should be like that if you don't include Healding redux and CC. If you include the latter DPS should be able to down the healer.

[rain9441]

That should be like that if you don't include Healding redux and CC. If you include the latter DPS should be able to down the healer.

No. If this is the case I will gladly boot that healer from my party and pick up a witch hunter or iron breaker instead. They'll not only survive, but they'll have a chance of killing the enemy.

[KatzenKratzen]

No. If this is the case I will gladly boot that healer from my party and pick up a witch hunter or iron breaker instead. They'll not only survive, but they'll have a chance of killing the enemy.
If that makes you feel better then do so. Swapping a healer for a completely different role classes... :-\ Healer should not be unkillable but should be able to survive for long. I said SHOULD in both cases and that implies that it has to be a matter of skill not outclassing. Both extremes of healer taken out by DPS without breaking a sweat and no possibility for DPS to take down a healer are bad.

[Farshatok]

No. If this is the case I will gladly boot that healer from my party and pick up a witch hunter or iron breaker instead. They'll not only survive, but they'll have a chance of killing the enemy.

So, I have to spec into the anti-healer tree and use all my arsenal just to be able to annoy him more? Wow... So, given the current situation, I get that you run with Warbands without healers.

[Raynos]

Wrong. If a healer cannot last indefinitely against an equally geared/skilled player, the healer is dead weight.

Absolute predetermined death of a healer is a bad thing.

Wrong. A healer needs to have some limitations, and ability to lose. The turtle defense cannot be viable in an MMORPG. No one wants the victor to be whoever gets bored the slowest.

I'll rephrase though - a healer should be able to survive 20-30 seconds against another DPS, and have a reasonable shot of killing him as well. In an ideal world, when 1 player fights another, regardless of class, the winner will be the one with the best skill... with gear as a minor assistance.

[furfairy]

No. If this is the case I will gladly boot that healer from my party and pick up a witch hunter or iron breaker instead. They'll not only survive, but they'll have a chance of killing the enemy.

The fact that this decision process even exists has sent me to my alts to find a new main. My main has been a witchcraft-specced Zealot, Lyram, currently at lvl 30. But lately I've been considering making my squig herder or rolling a sacrifice-specced DoK to be my main, because my Zealot is so incredibly squishy against mdps. He's dead within about 5 seconds against a white lion or witch hunter. Some powers don't work, will freeze mid-animation and not fire. He has one heal and one shield as part of his mastery, both being pretty weak. And his damage consists of three weak DoT's, one of which, Storm of Ravens, doesn't work half the time. (I'll get the message, Invalid Target, if there's any elevation difference between me an my opponent.) So I'm very frustrated. I'll admit to not being a super-skilled player. But I'm used to being a capable healer, buffer, and daring rezzer. But lately, even at the top of T3, I really can't see much reason for group to welcome him into their midst given the choice of almost any other class.

[rain9441]

How can you possibly justify healers having a predetermined fate to die?

Think of it conceptually. The healer is there to heal people. If under the pressure of one enemy the healer cannot even maintain his own survivability how is he expected to improve the survivability of his group?

A healer is there to provide additional life to his allies. The additional life they receive extends their duration of dealing damage or pressuring the enemy (This is how healers are helpful). If the healer is only healing himself and not dealing any damage, he offers nothing to the group. Nobody is lasting any longer. Hes like a rock planted on the field that doesn't attack back and takes a few seconds of hitting. You know tanks serve the same role but they deal damage and support as well.

If the healer is capable of outhealing a single enemies DPS, any excess healing that is left over is then given to the group as extended life to deal more damage. That is the role of healing.

All healer vs healer combat in a small enough battle should be a stalemate . If this mechanic doesn't exist the game is broken. When the damage exceeds the healing response time enough to kill a healer, this mechanic does not apply (This is called a spike, usually consisting of a majority of a group not only attacking the same target, but using their highest damage ability at precisely the same moment, try it some time).

In the case of a team of 100% healers, they are not invincible. You have to use tactics to kill them: Focus fire, morale abilties, silence, spike damage, or pressure. Pressure is generally not a good tactic against an all healer army.

In the case of a team having a well balanced group with enough healers to support it, they are not invincible. There are tactics that help: Focus fire, spikes, pressure, crowd control, disables. But it should require coordination and effort between multiple people and/or a significant advantage of numbers. If you are having trouble in these scenarios try highly efficient Dmg/AP skills such as DoTs and Debuffs.

It only turns into a turtle battle when both parties consists of more healers than are required to outheal the collective dps of the enemy under strict participation limits (eg the story of guild wars).


I'm going to reitterate this one more time. A healer who cannot keep himself alive indefinately against any single opponent that is equally skilled/geared is...

Dead Weight.

[OtterPop]

Having never seen a tank dedicated to guarding the back row healers I decided to give it a try - logged on a baby IB, queued up and glued myself to an AM or RP. Played mid Tier 1 to mid Tier 2.

If our side is doing okay I'm doing very little (couple times I'm thinking we're doing so good I can just creep up a little but lose some AMs that way - folks can make it difficult to get back in time). If we're not doing okay it gets down to me and the RP against a horde (and I wonder if it'd gone better if I was hassling their back line). I'm certain I was frequently useful (and frequently thanked) but it took lots of patience. And it got kinda boring.

And it isn't directly rewarding. No column on the scenario score card, no renown for soaking damage. My role was to keep the healers going so they keep the team going so we all get renown - very indirect.

Long story short - just wasn't that fun or rewarding. And that'd need to change before significant numbers would take on this role. At least that's the feeling I took from this.

[Litholen]

Long story short - just wasn't that fun or rewarding. And that'd need to change before significant numbers would take on this role. At least that's the feeling I took from this.
Which is exactly why squishie healers need a moderate survivability buff - to give you a chance to run back to defend us from the front lines, rather than requiring you to stand around like a tin of (increasingly sour) milk just in case a WE appears. The idea that the game is predicated on Healers only having fun if Tanks have no fun, and Tanks only having fun if Healers have no fun, is frankly preposterous. There has to be a third way.

*Pauses*

*Smacks himself upside the head for using that tired, Blairite soundbyte*

-L

[OtterPop]

Which is exactly why squishie healers need a moderate survivability buff - to give you a chance to run back to defend us from the front lines

Or I need something useful to do between WEs. If I try this again it'll be as a Salvation WP.

But yeah, total agreement - I came to the back-line tank experiment as another failed RP (failed to have fun, not failed to be useful).

My response was mostly for the tanks-need-to-do-their-job crowd. Easier said than done *smiles*!

I'm back to my Grace WP. And I'm pretty sure tanks have a better time guarding me (I'm where the melee action is and there's great synergy between us). And while plenty of WPs forget they can heal other folks some of us keep it firmly in mind.

[RealBigKitty]

Did anyone else notice how some of the posts after my long soapbox diatribe actually MADE my whole point about players driving away healers?

Accusing a DoK of suckage because he doesn't run out of blood points is total BS. You have ZERO idea how they are specced. Mine is low level but NOT specced for Willpower/healing. While I will hit people with the actual spells, I rely on the sacrifice powers to heal. I try my damndest and always fire off morale powers, but my willpower-based heals are nearly ineffectual. Me draining blood points to use them would NOT be an efficient use of my time or energy.

Or, and this is a reach, it is a newer player or someone who is learning how to effectively play a new class in RvR. This denigrating attitude will chase them off, whereas if you tried to help/teach them how to play THEIR CHOICE of build, they would likely appreciate it and heal your butt off.

And calling healers "dead weight" because they cannot do something YOU think they should be able to is rude, inconsiderate, self-absorbed, and would have you added to Asshat by our entire Guild and never healed again. And is the crux of my point. Stop treating them like crap. There are probably crappy healers out there, but making assumptions and statements like that is certainly not going to encourage more players to try/stick with healing classes.

Just IMAGINE the uproar if healers yelled at DPS "you're not doing enough damage/killing them fast enough" or at tanks "you're not abosrbing enough damage for me". While I'm guessing this has probably occurred, I have never seen it. It's usually the healers that "suck". Again, it's pretty clear, between bugs and game freezes, a lack of flexible powers, and an absolute lack of respect (in general) from other players, why healers are in decline.

[rain9441]

I didn't say healers are dead weight. I said healers who cannot survive indefinitely against an equally skilled/geared opponent are dead weight. It's not about whether the healer is doing a good job, its about whether the healer class is capable of fulfilling the role they play given the skills and gear available to them.

[Lauren Love]

I love it when people keep posting this.
If your WP/DOK is not running out of juice (EVEN with a purple book/chalice) they are not healing enough. Period.

RF/Blood is not an endless pool, even with a 12 regen / second, if the player has any semblance of skill he can empty is quite skillfully in PVP and PVE. Those WPs and Doks that just toss a heal here and there ofcourse never run out, but they arent the ones saving your lives either.

I have a book that grants 9 Righteous Fury per second.

I have not run out of Righteous Fury since i've equipped it. Ever.

I'm probably speaking to the wind here, but i've even TRIED to run out of Righteous Fury. It doesn't happen.

[kbern]

I have a book that grants 9 Righteous Fury per second.

I have not run out of Righteous Fury since i've equipped it. Ever.

I'm probably speaking to the wind here, but i've even TRIED to run out of Righteous Fury. It doesn't happen.

Then I must simply be bugged, or I heal too much, or you heal too little.

I run out ALL the time. Simple fact. It does happen.

[Farshatok]

I have a book that grants 9 Righteous Fury per second.

I have not run out of Righteous Fury since i've equipped it. Ever.

I'm probably speaking to the wind here, but i've even TRIED to run out of Righteous Fury. It doesn't happen.

Not even spamming Healing Hand? Or you meant "tried" as in with common sense? :)

[Lauren Love]

Then I must simply be bugged, or I heal too much, or you heal too little.

I run out ALL the time. Simple fact. It does happen.

Well then that's just odd.

I simply cannot run out.

[Lauren Love]

Not even spamming Healing Hand? Or you meant "tried" as in with common sense? :)

Martyr's Blessing/Healing Hand, yes.

[Ayamo]

Then I must simply be bugged, or I heal too much, or you heal too little.

I run out ALL the time. Simple fact. It does happen.


Agree, with an epic chalise its getting less and less, but a good spam heal section might actually end up with me bein out of SE: >

[Qualum]

I think the whole point was the hybrid mechanic was broken because the regen suddenly makes you have less sustainability concerns than any other healer. Meaning you're a backline healer with better survivability, healing capacity, and group utility than the pure healers.

[kbern]

Agree, with an epic chalise its getting less and less, but a good spam heal section might actually end up with me bein out of SE: >

Yeah, I am not criticizing people who say they dont run out, I just do.

It could be specs, or different strats. I know some WP do not heal many others. I play 4 different healers and I watch closely my combat logs when I am playing my non healers.

I dont give people crap about it because they may have reasons for what they do, be healing others than me, whatever.

I dont spam my group heal, I am Grace spec'd so many times am up in the face of the enemy so even building RF while fighting, but I still supplicate a good amount.

[kbern]

I think the whole point was the hybrid mechanic was broken because the regen suddenly makes you have less sustainability concerns than any other healer. Meaning you're a backline healer with better survivability, healing capacity, and group utility than the pure healers.

To be honest I feel like I have more power to heal non stop with my RP than I do with my WP.

Granted my RP's are 22, and I recently made a new one who is 10, and my WP is 30, but I have no "fuel" problems so to speak with the RP's that is far and away different than the WP.

[Ayamo]

I think the whole point was the hybrid mechanic was broken because the regen suddenly makes you have less sustainability concerns than any other healer. Meaning you're a backline healer with better survivability, healing capacity, and group utility than the pure healers.


To bad that if your group is hardly getting trashed, or trashed to quick, you can say bye bye to your burst healing. Survive is based on having a bit more armor (AP anyone?), KE, and rend soul, which is currently having more failing streaks than ever.

[Multiplex]

I think the whole point was the hybrid mechanic was broken because the regen suddenly makes you have less sustainability concerns than any other healer. Meaning you're a backline healer with better survivability, healing capacity, and group utility than the pure healers.

I've been sticking with my shaman because there seems to be a severe need in T4 for pure healers... If there wasn't a need then I would be spending more time on my DPS alt. It is often frustrating to get focused immediately in encounters and it seems that they need to boost healing overall to better compete with DPS. I never play in PUGs any more since they offer zero protection to the healers... making the play experience much worse.

I'm stacked wounds and resistance and so I live long enough and can often get away from moderate DPS trains in the back line... however it doesn't really matter. With the massive nerfs to our small heal+hot a single DPS class can shut off a huge chunk of my healing capacity by interrupting/setback on group heal and single target heal. They need to make them less fragile by 50% and decrease their cast time by .5 seconds. There needs to be a way to continue healing when you're getting your face smashed in...

If things were different with class populations I'd probably roll a DoK w/ an epic chalice... it seems as though they have all of the advantages right now.

[Teviko]

I play a healer for the pure joy of healing. I haven't taken my AM past T3 yet, but never seemed to have problems in my role of heal, heal, heal. Especially coupled with other healers.

I don't see what the big deal is, honestly. Lack of survivability? No, tahts not it. I can detaunt, and continue to heal all the time. If I die, I get a rez, if I don't get a rez, I run back. I heal and I heal, and I heal, and the only satisfaction I get out of it is:

"It could have been worse, that guy could have died 5 times instead of 2."

OR

"Look at how much I healed for!!120k!! Wonder if I can beat that next time."

Everyone will be an sometimes because I wasn't dedicated to solely healing them, or they died due to their own stupidity, but as a healer, I've learned that I run the show. I call the shots, and if you died, it sure as hell isn't my fault, and I carry that e-peen around with me all the time.

I have the power to do what you can't, and if you're not nice to me, I can take it all away, and then where will you be?

Healers get the short stick, to be sure, but if your not playing one to enjoy just the base experience in of itself, you're always gonna find something to complain about.

[Litholen]

I haven't taken my AM past T3 yet, but never seemed to have problems in my role of heal, heal, heal. Especially coupled with other healers.
Look forward to R31 - it's a real high-point, for a multitude of reasons. After that, it all goes really rather horribly Pete Tong. But don't let that discourage you - enjoy it while you can!

-L

[Teviko]

Look forward to R31 - it's a real high-point, for a multitude of reasons. After that, it all goes really rather horribly Pete Tong. But don't let that discourage you - enjoy it while you can!

-L

Why should it be any different? healing is healing, is healing. Its all teh balance game. This green bar gets low, heal it up, that one gets low, heal it up. . . I have clickedon my own name and healed myself, never realizing it until later (after a WE was generously disposed of).

[Raynos]

Having never seen a tank dedicated to guarding the back row healers I decided to give it a try - logged on a baby IB, queued up and glued myself to an AM or RP. Played mid Tier 1 to mid Tier 2.

If our side is doing okay I'm doing very little (couple times I'm thinking we're doing so good I can just creep up a little but lose some AMs that way - folks can make it difficult to get back in time). If we're not doing okay it gets down to me and the RP against a horde (and I wonder if it'd gone better if I was hassling their back line). I'm certain I was frequently useful (and frequently thanked) but it took lots of patience. And it got kinda boring.

And it isn't directly rewarding. No column on the scenario score card, no renown for soaking damage. My role was to keep the healers going so they keep the team going so we all get renown - very indirect.

Long story short - just wasn't that fun or rewarding. And that'd need to change before significant numbers would take on this role. At least that's the feeling I took from this.

This is a fundemental flaw with the system - as it turns out, I'm fer better off EXP/RP wise if I'm in the top level (within 3 of the max level) if I ignore the scenario objective and farm kills. This goes 2x if I'm alone in my own warband. Even if we lose 150/500, my EXP/RP will be right snack in the middle of Destro's EXP/RP.

[rain9441]

Ok Teviko, I'm going to use your post in my argument. I apologize for this in advance and in no way am I saying that you are incompetent, lack skill, or in any way saying you suck at playing WAR.

I've learned that I run the show. I call the shots, and if you died, it sure as hell isn't my fault, and I carry that e-peen around with me all the time.You should run the show. Life or death should be decided by you. I accept this, and I am grateful for your efforts as a healer. But there is a contradiction here.

I have clickedon my own name and healed myself, never realizing it until later (after a WE was generously disposed of).This is where it becomes problematic. As a healer, you should be able to not only heal your party but do so under the pressure of said witch elf. I don't care who thinks otherwise, this is what I would expect from a support class dedicated solely to healing. This expection is solely based on the assumption that you are dealing with someone equally geared/skilled, or someone you outgear/outskill. If a R40 RR67 marauder with full dark promise/epic weapons gets in your face and you are R40 RR33 with 2/5 annihilator, 2/5 devastator, the situation is completely different. In such a case, you are out-played.

But as you stated, when under attack you are not only healing yourself, but you are depending on your party members to dispose of the witch elf attacking you. This alone completely turned the table on power. You no longer have the e-peen you claimed before. You are now depending on others in your party member to keep you alive. You, the backbone healer of the party, are now in the hands of the bright wizard/white lion/witch hunter/shadow warrior/tank next to you, and can only pray he/she acts quickly in disabling and disposing of such witch elf before you bite the bullet and press the button on the big black skull on your screen.

Now before I go on any further, I want to make sure we understand each other. I am saying that you are under an illusion that you are the one who is calling the shots. When you are under attack, it is the belief of many players that they should ultimately have the upper hand on you under all circumstances. The role of a healer no longer works in this situation to benefit the party because you, the healer, the support, the backbone of the party, is the one being baby-sat by another player in order to function as the role you are intending to play.


There are a number of issues at hand here. Whether it be lack of survivability, insufficient healing capabilities, sucky willpower/healing ratios, long cast times that are set back too easily, or any and all of the above. The issues that do not exist are a difference in gear and skill of the person playing the healer.

This is easier expressed with an example. Assume you are in a 2v2 (this will never happen, but conceptually it is a great way to bring realization). Your party consists of 1 Healer and 1 DPS. The opposing party consists of 2 DPS.

If you are unable to outheal the damage of a single enemy target, this is what will happen (Each DPSer deals 100 DPS, you heal 80 DPS, all people involved have 1000 health):


The enemies focus fire on you, the healer. You can heal 80 DPS, so you take 120 DPS. If you have 1000 health, you will last a total of 8.3 seconds. After 8.3 seconds, you are dead and one enemy has taken 833 damage. Your allied DPS will finish off the near dead enemy, then get destroyed by the other DPS. End result: Your party is dead, their party suffers one casualty.
The enemies focus fire on your DPSer. You can heal 80 DPS, so the end result is that your allied DPSer takes 120 DPS. After 8.3 seconds, he dies, and the enemy is has taken 833 damage. Now you are under attack. You are taking 120 DPS, and will die in another 833 seconds. End result: Your party is dead, their party suffers no casualties.

Examine the same scenario, except you can outheal the DPS of an enemy (Each DPSer deals 100 DPS, you heal 120 DPS, all people involved have 1000 health).



The enemies focus fire on you, the healer. You can heal 120 DPS, so you take 80 DPS. If you have 1000 health, you will last a total of 12.5 seconds. After 10 seconds, one of the enemies is destroyed by your allied DPSer, you are now taking 100 DPS and healing 120 DPS. The other DPSer cannot take you down. End result: Their party is dead, your party suffers no casualties.
The enemies focus fire on your DPSer. You can heal 120 DPS, so your allied DPSer takes 80 DPS. After 10 seconds, one of the enemies is destroyed by your allied DPSer. Your allied DPSer is now taking 100 DPS and you are healing for 120 DPS. The other enemy DPSer cannot take your DPSer down. End result: Their party is dead, your party suffers no casualties.

The important distinction here is whether or not a healer can out heal the DPS of any single enemy attacking it. If it is not the case, under the scenarios I described above, you will lose. Not only will you lose, but it will be more beneficial to the enemy if they completely ignore you and focus fire the DPSer first!

In any sane person's brain, there is no thought that exists that would ever lead them to believe that a party of 1 healer and 1 DPS should ever lose to an equally geared/skilled party of 2 DPS. It simply should not be possible. The entire battle is decided on one game mechanic: Whether or not the healer is capable of indefinately surviving against the pressure of any one equally geared/skilled player.

[Teviko]

[quote=rain9441;3272086]
Super, omg, long post
[quote]

I agree with some of what you had to say. But one thing people failt to realize is that you can't be invincible, on eitehr side of the equation, in playing WAR. If I could out heal everyone's DPS, then noone would die, and the same would be true of the other side.

I can out heal anyone DPS, solo, thats fine, the way it should be.

It *should* be iffy, on either side, if 1 single DPS can take me out. And I'll explain why.

Cast times. HoT's are nice, they provide a nice buffer when combatting someone's DPS. Detaunts are nice as well, as are damage shields (refering solely to AM abilities here), but if left uncheck, HoT's will do nothing for me, they will completely counter them, and I still wind up dead. Plus, with the amount of CC in the game, it gets worse and worse, but for comarison, I'll put me up next to a BG.

BG's (the other class I am familiar with) have a heap load attheir disposal for taking out a healer. they have a WIS/INT debuff, a 3-5 sec knockdown, an AP drain, a toughness reducer, a wounds reducer, and a meager armor mitigator. And they have a tactic that instantly negates all detaunts. Plus, if I am casting a heal, and they taunt me, then I get a heavy set back.

This one class can mess up a healers world. 1v1, the odds belong with the BG. With a group, the BG's chances are slim and with another healer, the BG just can't cope. Support, even between allied archtypes (healers, tanks, mdps, rdps) is needed. This is why this game is a GROUP oriented game. If we broke everything down to 1v1, this game would fall apart. And thats what people are trying to do.

In a group, a healer is the commander, the glorious shining beacon to whom all, and any given attention should be focused on, both good and bad. As the enemy, you wanna kill the healers and take out the vital link to your enemies survival. As an ally, you want to ensure that your healer remains alive to continue feeding you that thread of life. It flows both ways, thats why a healer is so vital.

When I say *I* command the lines out there, doesn't mean that I don't need the support of anyone, it means, if I'm here, and you're not in sight, or your out of range, then you best back up, because I can't heal you, and if you want that, you come to me. If I'm being attacked, you come remove this threat so I can continue to spread out teh wealth instead of hoarding it.

The common misconception that healers should hold their own against anyone is just false.

[Litholen]

Why should it be any different?

I can out heal anyone DPS, solo, thats fine, the way it should be.
That's why it's different. Come T4, DPS scales much better than HPS - by R35, you can't outheal a single opponent's melee DPS, you can barely keep up with it - and you run out of AP before they run out of steam. By R40, you can't even pretend you're keeping up. RDPS is a different issue, muddied by the vaguaries of resist-stacking.

As a Marauder pointed out in that silly 6.3k thread, 1kdps is expected damage output come endgame of any MDPS class against a single target. Your Archmage will only match that healing on a single target if you have solely stacked Willpower, and you have a UI add-on to bypass the cast-time bug. And your Archmage will never match that if you are the attacked target, due to setback of heals.

But the argument is academic, because outside of PvE dungeons you aren't stacking Willpower. You're stacking Wounds and Initiative. People on the forum bandy around the number 7k for minimum required health to survive in end-game PvP. To get that, your AM has to have +350 wounds from equipment alone. Surprisingly easy before the nerf to talisman crafting - now practically impossible for anyone who doesn't buy their gold (which is vile and reprehensible, and the equivalent of stealing your character sheet from your GM so you can doctor it between sessions).

You also need to stack about a hundred extra Initiative from equipment. It's you're own fault if you die in less than ten seconds if you haven't stacked Initiative. And you'll want to be stacking resists, because everyone else is stacking resists and, the first time any of the opposition's RDPS magic users realises you're the only healer who isn't stacking resists, you are a RDPS Pinata.

There's no need to stack Toughness any more, apparently. So you don't need to worry about that one. But you'll want to stack armour - which is tricky without Talisman slots. But those are the Talisman slots you've already used for Wounds, Initiative and Resists. Oh, and the gear you need for AP regen doesn't have talisman slots to begin with - so you're really rather screwed there.

Now you can think about stacking Willpower. Your primary stat. And you're an AM, meaning you're a RDPS hybrid, so you really ought to be keeping your Willpower and your Int stacked.

And if you can find a way to do this without an endless stream of +19 Talismans and RR50 equipment then, to quote Aerosmith, Mister, you're a better man than I.

And if you do find a way to keep your Wounds at 700, your Initiative at 350, your Willpower at 900, your Intelligence at 650 and your Elemental and Corporeal resists at 50%, minimum, please post the equipment setup on the Archmage forums.

Of course, as I say, the argument is wholly academic. Your heals simply cannot mathematically churn out the 1000hps to a single target that a single MDPS class is expected to churn out. And you certainly can't churn out anywhere near that on yourself, due to ability set-back.

The idea that you're the only healer who plays one altruistically is, I think, something of a disservice to all ranged healer players. If we didn't want to keep the party upright, and to play support, we'd be playing melee healers. As it is, the problem come end-game is that we're more of a burden than a benefit. We are the Weakest Link. And Anne Robinson is a Witch Elf.

-L

[Krazilak Tzeentalon]

The vast majority of your deaths would have been prevented if you had competent team mates.

And therein lies the catch.



As for massed focus-fire...no one survives that but tanks, and tough tanks at that.

[Deeva]

You should be able to keep yourself and one other person alive while against a Witch Elf? Are you smoking crack, and do you even play a healer that isn't a IB-guarded WP?

[Medicore]

Am I the only who finds it ironic that the class of the OP can be held responsible for droves of order healers quitting?

We feel the same way about the WH's lol.

Life is tough as a healer but its definatly more challenging and interesting. DPS button mashing puts me to sleep.

[Liang]

You should be able to keep yourself and one other person alive while against a Witch Elf? Are you smoking crack, and do you even play a healer that isn't a IB-guarded WP?

You should definitely be able to keep *ONE* of you up against a single WE - well as long as they aren't heal debuffed... and then I would reasonably expect it to be a not immediate death. :)

All in all, I'm really disappointed with the role of a healer in Warhammer, and I doubt that I could be *payed* to play my AM again.

-Liang

[Ayamo]

I play a healer for the pure joy of healing.





To bad solo dps'ing is a lot more rewarding.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2346/goinsolosa2.jpg (sigh at the chat, typical example of bad rerollers)



I did this a few times in a row, and usualy ended up (with winning bonus) with around 21-22k xp at LVL 21:rolleyes: I get 0 xp from topping healing, rezzing, or whatsoever, I also only get RP if the one I'm healing is actually doing something usefull.

(no offense against we's, my blackguard can do the same with healer support)

edit: removed the loose lineO_O

[KatzenKratzen]

I play a healer for the pure joy of healing. I haven't taken my AM past T3 yet, but never seemed to have problems in my role of heal, heal, heal. Especially coupled with other healers.
Well past T3 is a completely different story. It might sound as a cliche but it is totally different. WH in T3 and WH in T4 is different, WE in T3 and WE in T4 is different, Marauder in T3 is not so effective as in T4. If you don't understand why, well there is gear. Gear helps DPS classes (especially physical ones) much more than it helps Healers. Your gear will always have worthless stats like INT which barely help your surviveability and you will really sacrifice lots of willpower for tanking stats. Its different.

And stop comming up with this "group game" card. If it is a group game then let everyone be forced to effective group setups not healers alone. If you see that you need a well-knitted group to survive facerolling MDPS'es then something is wrong.

[Teviko]

And stop comming up with this "group game" card. If it is a group game then let everyone be forced to effective group setups not healers alone. If you see that you need a well-knitted group to survive facerolling MDPS'es then something is wrong.

Excuse me, but it *is* a group game. It is not balanced around 1v1, it never has been, and never should be. The game is WAR where alot of people get together to kill alot of other people.

If you begin breaking down the game in 1v1 situations, thats when nerf bats begin swinging. If you look at the whole eclipse of teh game, then you begin understanding that everyone relies upon everyone else.

You show me where the developers came up with the solo RvR experience, and then you can play your "don't give me this group card crap". If you can't realize that it is a group game, it looks like its time to go back to WoW.

[KatzenKratzen]

Excuse me, but it *is* a group game. It is not balanced around 1v1, it never has been, and never should be. The game is WAR where alot of people get together to kill alot of other people.

If you begin breaking down the game in 1v1 situations, thats when nerf bats begin swinging. If you look at the whole eclipse of teh game, then you begin understanding that everyone relies upon everyone else.

You show me where the developers came up with the solo RvR experience, and then you can play your "don't give me this group card crap". If you can't realize that it is a group game, it looks like its time to go back to WoW.

Thanks captain. Now explain me why should healer/tank be forced into a "group game" while DPS class can ignore it and preform. If you want a balanced and interesting Group vs Group expirience then you have to look in class' solo performance. And solo performance is not 1v1 situation but how is valid and fledged is it's overall performance without any outer assistance.

And FYI WoW IS a group game. More than Warhammer is right now because of plain straightforward tunnelvisioning strategy of "BURST HEALER LOL XD"

[Xae]

Thanks captain. Now explain me why should healer/tank be forced into a "group game" while DPS class can ignore it and preform. If you want a balanced and interesting Group vs Group expirience then you have to look in class' solo performance. And solo performance is not 1v1 situation but how is valid and fledged is it's overall performance without any outer assistance.

And FYI WoW IS a group game. More than Warhammer is right now because of plain straightforward tunnelvisioning strategy of "BURST HEALER LOL XD"

I don't think you realize how fast a DPS class dies with no healing. Most of the time they are still getting healed by healers in a group. They are leaching the efforts of people to farm renown faster.

[Teviko]

I can't continue this argument. Not because you are right, but because you are one of the WTFBBQHAXPWN people who think this game is based around WE's. It's all a conspiracy against Order to "Keep the man down" so that Order can never win, because order sux and that WE's are unbeatable slaughtering meachines rampaging across the countryside and there is no way to really kill one, because this game is favored towards Destruction.

WE's RULE

ORDER ALL SUX.

Get over it, its time to find a new game. YOu obviously can't hand'e teh awesomeness of Destruction, therefore, you must admit defeat and run along back to mommy.

[Khaelann]

I have a book that grants 9 Righteous Fury per second.

I have not run out of Righteous Fury since i've equipped it. Ever.

I'm probably speaking to the wind here, but i've even TRIED to run out of Righteous Fury. It doesn't happen.

I have an epic chalice and I run out of SE all the time.

KE+KV = 100 SE
time to perform said operation = 2.5s(1s for KE, 1,5s for GCD, KV being instant)
SE regened = 2.5sx12SE = 30SE
Total SE = -70SE

KE+KV+Soul Shielding + KE = 200 SE
time to perform said operation = 6,5s (1s for KE, 1,5s for GCD, KV insntant, 1,5s GCD, SS instant, 1,5s GCD, 1s KE)
SE regened = 6.5sx12SE = 78SE
Total SE = -122SE

That is with no lag. Now if you go with KE+SI spamming you can run out of SE quite fast too but those two chain casts alone show how easily you can empty your SE/RF. Throw in Rend Soul or Devour Essence and you're almost totally done already.

Heck, even pure KE spam would drain you if you chain cast it.
1s cast, 2s cooldown means that you can spam it pretty much after each GCD

1s cast, 2s wait and then 1s again for the next one = 120 SE used and you regened 48SE. Keep that up and you're out in no time.

[KatzenKratzen]

I can't continue this argument. Not because you are right, but because you are one of the WTFBBQHAXPWN people who think this game is based around WE's. It's all a conspiracy against Order to "Keep the man down" so that Order can never win, because order sux and that WE's are unbeatable slaughtering meachines rampaging across the countryside and there is no way to really kill one, because this game is favored towards Destruction.

WE's RULE

ORDER ALL SUX.

Get over it, its time to find a new game. YOu obviously can't hand'e teh awesomeness of Destruction, therefore, you must admit defeat and run along back to mommy.
You are inadequate. Good thing that you won't continue this argument.

I don't think you realize how fast a DPS class dies with no healing. Most of the time they are still getting healed by healers in a group. They are leaching the efforts of people to farm renown faster.
I realize that DPS class dies fast when focused but my WH can both survive occasional training and perfom his role much better than my RP and is a much more satisfactory expirience. I really enjoyed my RP from T1 to T3 but in T4 it started to get more frustrating than fun.

[thegrifter]

can't continue this argument. Not because you are right, but because you are one of the WTFBBQHAXPWN people who think this game is based around WE's. It's all a conspiracy against Order to "Keep the man down" so that Order can never win, because order sux and that WE's are unbeatable slaughtering meachines rampaging across the countryside and there is no way to really kill one, because this game is favored towards Destruction.
You said in a previous post that you are currently T3. Honestly you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Many, many lvl 40s are repeatedly posting that they need to have a tank stick next to them in order to survive. You should really take the time to read what is being posted. HPS < DPS.

You figure best case scenario in RvR with no set backs a healer can solo heal about 400-500 HPS. Obviously if you pre-stack your HoTs your HPS could be higher, but for arguements sake healers are looking at about 400-500. When you get single hit for 800, or crit for 1200+, silenced, disoriented, knockdown, heal debuffed, etc, you can't put those numbers out. Hence DPS > HPS

[Xaxas]

Under focus fire, any class is gonna die. But against White Lions and Witch Hunters, Healers should get as much wounds as they can, slot their detaunt tactics and spam the hell out of their AOE detaunt ability. And lastly, never turn your back and run. Stay facing them. You might not be able to beat them but you sure as hell can last a long time.

Yer not so bad
I swear its like most shamans don't know that spell exists. Put it on a melee attacking you, and you win.

[Khaelann]

Yer not so bad
I swear its like most shamans don't know that spell exists. Put it on a melee attacking you, and you win.

180 AP in 9 secs when the regen is what, 15 AP per second. Sure, it can slow them down but doesnt really shut em out completely, not to mention that it ignores AP giving moves and buffs from your own team. And you can always drink an AP potion :>

Oh and it is a 2s cast with 20s cooldown so you cant even use it all the time.

I swear that it is as if most melees dont know that casttimes and cooldowns exist.

[KatzenKratzen]

Yer not so bad (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1911)I swear its like most shamans don't know that spell exists. Put it on a melee attacking you, and you win.
Not that good :) now Rune of Insanity (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1643) - that's where it get serious.

[Farshatok]

180 AP in 9 secs when the regen is what, 15 AP per second. Sure, it can slow them down but doesnt really shut em out completely, not to mention that it ignores AP giving moves and buffs from your own team. And you can always drink an AP potion :>

Oh and it is a 2s cast with 20s cooldown so you cant even use it all the time.

I swear that it is as if most melees dont know that casttimes and cooldowns exist.

It's 2 second cast if you haven't been healing lately. It's usually instant for a Shaman healer. AP regen is 15 AP/second when you're not on GCD. If you spam instants, which MDPS usually does, there's no regen. It's not a godly skill, but it's extremely usable.

[Qualum]

Edit: Got ninja'ed with info.

[Xaxas]

180 AP in 9 secs when the regen is what, 15 AP per second. Sure, it can slow them down but doesnt really shut em out completely, not to mention that it ignores AP giving moves and buffs from your own team. And you can always drink an AP potion :>

Oh and it is a 2s cast with 20s cooldown so you cant even use it all the time.

I swear that it is as if most melees dont know that casttimes and cooldowns exist.

Eeek + that + detaunt = lolwut.

Shamans also have gork sez stop. Really destro has it great compared to what order suffers through. WH not having as much pressure as welf and shaman having a better selection of anti melee tools. The only thing Order has got going for it is the Runepriest high innate toughness and Armor Tactic. I think they'd easily trade it for having to deal with Witch Hunters though.

[Teviko]

You said in a previous post that you are currently T3. Honestly you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Many, many lvl 40s are repeatedly posting that they need to have a tank stick next to them in order to survive. You should really take the time to read what is being posted. HPS < DPS.

You figure best case scenario in RvR with no set backs a healer can solo heal about 400-500 HPS. Obviously if you pre-stack your HoTs your HPS could be higher, but for arguements sake healers are looking at about 400-500. When you get single hit for 800, or crit for 1200+, silenced, disoriented, knockdown, heal debuffed, etc, you can't put those numbers out. Hence DPS > HPS

First, just because I am not T4, doesn't mean I don't know how to heal. It may be different in T4 with all the CC, but if your getting that far CC"d, you're getting focused fired and noone can be expected to live from that.

Another thing is, it shouldn't matter if anyone plays T4 or not. Every waggered a guess as to why I don't play T4???? With all these posts raging around about how bad T4 is, why would I put myself in an experience where the impact it has on my gameplay sucks so badly I wouldn't wanna play anymore anyways? I enjoy this game, and hence, probably why I am smart enough not to move any of my toons past T3.

But my case wasn't against that healers in T4 can't heal. The problem with healers in T4 is that they can't scale correctly on healing without impacting lower tiers. If you boost them up to be able to support T4 healing, then they will be boosted up through T1-T4. But a healer, or multiple healers, should not be expected to heal through a FF effort on eitehr side.

Healers are to bring balance into the game, not make it so that any one side is unkillable. If Team A can't beat team B and B can't kill A, where's the fun? Each side has to suffer some losses, through teamwork or sheer numbers in order to win, and in order to feel some accomplishment.

If healers in T4 are quitting because they eitehr feel under-appreciated, or are being a burden to teh group, then people will not play them, because they don't wanna hold down their group, but then you roll up and have no healers, and suddenly, people begin crying:

"We have no healers."

Response.

"Well, then go roll one up."

Everyone wants to get up there and fight, they all wanna help contribute to killing the other team. The most successful groups I've seen doing this are those that move as a team, as a single unit, and I swear, tryiong to kill a healer in the midst of a pack of Order is waxing your legs. Painful and often unproductive.

If people began looking at this game as a team game, and began embracing members of their tema instead of alienating them because they are just too ahrd to defend, then the reason healers are quitting is because of everyone else they depend on is edging them out. I'm not saying that game mechanics doesn't contribute to that, but from what I see, its more of a mentaility than any true core gaming design.

[Khaelann]

It's 2 second cast if you haven't been healing lately. It's usually instant for a Shaman healer. AP regen is 15 AP/second when you're not on GCD. If you spam instants, which MDPS usually does, there's no regen. It's not a godly skill, but it's extremely usable.

And when that WH pops out of stealth while you're picking flowers you havent been healing lately. Or that WL Pounces on you while you're happily riding with your wolfie. There's plenty of cases where it will be 2s. Also, a smart MDPS seeing that on himself will stop spamming the buttons to actually recover some AP, unless they can kill the Shammie with their initial burst anyway. Perhaps even go as far as to drink an AP potion to negate the debuff. It basically just reduces your DPS for 9s and after that you have 11s before the Shammy can do it again. It also in no way affects autoattacks, which on a WL for example can be very devastating.

It is not an IWIN button nor does it even grant the Shaman more than a few seconds of less damage. A weaker detaunt if you'd like to compare it with other skills.

The shaman will still be ROFLWTFBBQPwnz0red nine times out of ten, which is the problem here.

[rain9441]

The problem with healers in T4 is that they can't scale correctly on healing without impacting lower tiers. If you boost them up to be able to support T4 healing, then they will be boosted up through T1-T4.

I actually startedanother thread in this forum stating that there is a serious issue with the willpower stat. I propsed to increase the benefit of willpower from 1 willpower = 0.2 HPS to 1 willpower = 0.675 HPS. The consequences of this would be very minimal in tier 1-3 because players don't have high stats. The proposition is based on the argument that tooltips for healing abilities are extremely high compared to tooltips for damage abilties, but when people start getting rediculous amounts of strength/int/bs/willpower, it doesn't scale correctly.

I doub't you've ever encountered it, but if you take a DPS/tank toon through tier1-2 and stack even +8 strength talismans, they are nearly unstoppable. If you take a healer through tier1-2 and stack +8 willpower talismans, you don't see any benefit.

[Farshatok]

And when that WH pops out of stealth while you're picking flowers you havent been healing lately. Or that WL Pounces on you while you're happily riding with your wolfie. There's plenty of cases where it will be 2s. Also, a smart MDPS seeing that on himself will stop spamming the buttons to actually recover some AP, unless they can kill the Shammie with their initial burst anyway. Perhaps even go as far as to drink an AP potion to negate the debuff. It basically just reduces your DPS for 9s and after that you have 11s before the Shammy can do it again. It also in no way affects autoattacks, which on a WL for example can be very devastating.

It is not an IWIN button nor does it even grant the Shaman more than a few seconds of less damage. A weaker detaunt if you'd like to compare it with other skills.

The shaman will still be ROFLWTFBBQPwnz0red nine times out of ten, which is the problem here.

Well, since you're quoting two cases on 1v1, I get it that you're on the "healers should not die to one person" side. I specifically said it's not godly, but it's useful. It's a skill that basically makes instant skills cost an extra 30 AP (since the GCD is 1.5s) for the next 9 seconds. Since skills usually cost 30-40 AP, that's almost doubling their cost.

[Khaelann]

Well, since you're quoting two cases on 1v1, I get it that you're on the "healers should not die to one person" side. I specifically said it's not godly, but it's useful. It's a skill that basically makes instant skills cost an extra 30 AP (since the GCD is 1.5s) for the next 9 seconds. Since skills usually cost 30-40 AP, that's almost doubling their cost.

I made two distinct examples that show how the casttime cant be just dismissed. As to what side I'm on: The most skilled player should win regardless of class in a 1vs1. If two players of similar skill meet, then the one playing the class which has most mitigation should win. So yeah, a DPS vs Healer fight should 100% of the time end in the Healer being the victor, if we have two players of similar skill.

[Farshatok]

The most skilled player should win regardless of class in a 1vs1.

To accomplish this and also make a game that's balanced in mass PvP is almost impossible. Secondly, I don't get the point: at the moment, MDPS kills healers in 1v1 (a little too fast maybe). You want to turn that around. Why? Why should we feel that we're worth less than you?

As a healer, your role is to heal. As DPS my role is to kill. When the two clash, you say that healer should win every time, given equal skills. Again, why?

[Khaelann]

To accomplish this and also make a game that's balanced in mass PvP is almost impossible. Secondly, I don't get the point: at the moment, MDPS kills healers in 1v1 (a little too fast maybe). You want to turn that around. Why? Why should we feel that we're worth less than you?

As a healer, your role is to heal. As DPS my role is to kill. When the two clash, you say that healer should win every time, given equal skills. Again, why?

Because the healer can both deal damage and mitigate damage while the DPS can only deal damage. A class that can do both should always be superior to a class that can do only one of the two mentioned. Also, healers that could do both would be alot harder to play(as is the case of good DoKs/WPs) which in turn would level the field. You would still stomp healers if you were a good DPS, maybe slower but still. But against a good healer you would actually lose, unlike now. An AM/RP wont be burning you down even if they are the next incarnation of the MMORPG God but in a system where an equal skilled healer trumps a DPS they would show you who is who. As it should be. Skill should overcome the class differences.

Also, the Lore would justify both AMs and RPs being superior to most melee as they're hero/lord type characters where as WEs for example come in units, dont remember if they're core or elite in the new editions but back in the day they were damn common. Surely a master of the arcane who can twist the Winds of Magic to his bidding is mightier than a rank and file worshipper of Khaine that relies on poisoned blades and toxin induced frenzy to give her an edge in the fight? Or are you suggesting each WE is a Hag Queen?

[rain9441]

I've given justification as to why healers should survive indefinately against any single equally skilled/geared opponent already a few times in this thread. Until anyone brings to the table an argument why this shouldnt be true besides "I'm a dps'er, i should kill healers", i'll just assume its accepted.

[Liang]

To accomplish this and also make a game that's balanced in mass PvP is almost impossible. Secondly, I don't get the point: at the moment, MDPS kills healers in 1v1 (a little too fast maybe). You want to turn that around. Why? Why should we feel that we're worth less than you?

As a healer, your role is to heal. As DPS my role is to kill. When the two clash, you say that healer should win every time, given equal skills. Again, why?

The answer to that is actually very simple: DPS is a positive unbounded function with a horizontal asymptote at 0 DPS, while healing is a positive bounded function with a horizontal asymptote at the target's max health.

If that didn't make sense, let me explain:
DPS = Sum(x=1..n){ DPS[x] }
HPS = Min(MaxHealth, Sum(x=1..n){HPS[x]}

Ok, that wasn't very clear, but it does show Yet Another Reason Why Wounds Is THE Most Important Stat In Game. Let me try again.

Let's say a SW does 500 DPS with 1500 volley, and that a AM heals 1800 volley and 600 HPS. Let's further assume that the target has 7k health.

1 SW's shooting the target with 1 AM healing it => Target is Invincible.
2 SW's shooting the target with 2 AM's healing it => Target is Invincible.
3 SW's shooting with 3 AM's => The tiniest bit of lag and the target dies (You're past half-way point in alpha strike)
...
5 SW's shooting the target with 5 AM's healing it => Target dies.
5 SW's shooting with 2000 AM's healing it => Target dies.

Now for more interesting applications:
WL deals 600 DPS, AM deals 600 HPS.
1/1 => Target lives
2/2 => Target lives
3/3 => Target lives
4/4 => Target dies between HOT ticks (2.9s TTL)
4/2000 => Target dies between HOT ticks (2.9s TTL)

And now we see another advantage that DPS has over healing - it's applied instantly, while in many situations healing is only applied after casting time and the 3s HOT timer.

Really, everyone keeps quoting that "This is a team game, healers should just be protected better"... but they fail to apply that to themselves. This is a team game - use your infinitely scaling DPS to simply assist train people down in spite of the best that their healers can do.

Also, yes, I am aware that different healers will tick at different times, and yes I am aware of exactly how that skews the above post (it's a bit simplistic, but it gets the points across).

-Liang

Ed: It occurs to me that if I switch the graph around I can have two horizontal asymptotes instead of one vertical and one horizontal. They are then easier to overlay and the problem is more clearly illustrated.

[Astral]

I have an epic chalice and I run out of SE all the time.

KE+KV = 100 SE
time to perform said operation = 2.5s(1s for KE, 1,5s for GCD, KV being instant)
SE regened = 2.5sx12SE = 30SE
Total SE = -70SE

KE+KV+Soul Shielding + KE = 200 SE
time to perform said operation = 6,5s (1s for KE, 1,5s for GCD, KV insntant, 1,5s GCD, SS instant, 1,5s GCD, 1s KE)
SE regened = 6.5sx12SE = 78SE
Total SE = -122SE

Your remarks here prompted me to post this thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236444) related to the RF/SE offhand regeneration topic. If you actually run out with a purple offhand, then I'm curious to know if WP offhands are bugged, or if you're exaggerating downward the amount of SE you actually regenerate.

[KatzenKratzen]

Really, everyone keeps quoting that "This is a team game, healers should just be protected better"... but they fail to apply that to themselves. This is a team game - use your infinitely scaling DPS to simply assist train people down in spite of the best that their healers can do.
This is what I was trying to say but mathematics just delivered the killing blow. Its amusing that having a grade in computer science I didn't come up with this earlier :(

[Noran]

---snip---
There's no need to stack Toughness any more, apparently. So you don't need to worry about that one. But you'll want to stack armour - which is tricky without Talisman slots. But those are the Talisman slots you've already used for Wounds, Initiative and Resists. Oh, and the gear you need for AP regen doesn't have talisman slots to begin with - so you're really rather screwed there.
---snip---

Sorry to brak your nice post, but if you are even half decent player as AM and you stack +armor in tali slots, im seriously going to laugh, because YOUR armour is already papper thing and stacking something like umm +200 armour is FAR less than stacking thoughness in those slots.. I really cant understand where the heck did you pull this most silliest idea at all.

If you really have Capital siege gear in your hands then you really notice with em all -arnor deduffs one is far better with thoughness than armour because, 200 armor ontop of maybe 2k aint alot.

[Liang]

This is what I was trying to say but mathematics just delivered the killing blow. Its amusing that having a grade in computer science I didn't come up with this earlier :(

Would it make you feel any better if I told you that I have a BS in Comp Sci/Mathematics and I've been building game simulation engines in my spare time for the last 3 years? ;-)

It certainly beats the day job anyway (data warehousing/ETL Architect).

-Liang

Ed: Grammar.

[Xaxas]

The whole argument is abyssmal that a healer should have the advantage over mdps.

Frankly this generation of MMO players have been spoiled, I wish mythic stuck with the DAOC formula where casters/healers were incredibly powerful but as soon as a melee stuck on them they were gimped.

If you think healer survivability sucks, ask mythic to buff Tank capabilities. This is an rvr game.

For one it would be graet if mythic made guard have a longer range and could be casted on on group members.

I never want to see anything that is remotely suggestedi n this thread that alludes to wow-like healer survivability. Having 3-4 classes beating on a resto druid/disc priest was ridiculous. This is a group based game. If you have a tank baby sitting you and he still can't prevent you from dying, then buff tanks. If you think your healing is weak, buff healers. Tanks are suppose to be your lifeline.

[Noran]

The whole argument is abyssmal that a healer should have the advantage over mdps.

Frankly this generation of MMO players have been spoiled, I wish mythic stuck with the DAOC formula where casters/healers were incredibly powerful but as soon as a melee stuck on them they were gimped.

If you think healer survivability sucks, ask mythic to buff Tank capabilities. This is an rvr game.

For one it would be graet if mythic made guard have a longer range and could be casted on on group members.

I never want to see anything that is remotely suggestedi n this thread that alludes to wow-like healer survivability. Having 3-4 classes beating on a resto druid/disc priest was ridiculous. This is a group based game. If you have a tank baby sitting you and he still can't prevent you from dying, then buff tanks. If you think your healing is weak, buff healers. Tanks are suppose to be your lifeline.

I know its group based game, but with this post mean that you want to lower down DoK / WP survival as well, because if thats the case - im really against it.. Sure I can stand against 2-3 mdps ppls that are poorly geared and dont have glue about the game, but that doesnt make me a god amongst the healers.

If you can point you the real problem and not the healers guarding other healers, because thats just smart gaming. Im all open to listen, but I wish the the god that this isnt again one of the so many DoK / WP hate posts.

[KatzenKratzen]

I never want to see anything that is remotely suggestedi n this thread that alludes to wow-like healer survivability. Having 3-4 classes beating on a resto druid/disc priest was ridiculous. This is a group based game. If you have a tank baby sitting you and he still can't prevent you from dying, then buff tanks. If you think your healing is weak, buff healers. Tanks are suppose to be your lifeline.
3 People in WoW could easily beat a disc priest or a druid. And that was a group based game because without your group and without their CC and their help you would die and die fast. MDPS beating Healer 1v1 easily is a poor choice for Group vs Group game.

That was a good formula in WoW. It promoted skill to some extent because you had to juggle your CC in the most effective way. In WAR it is currently mind-numbling tunnelvisioning melee train of tanks and MDPS to Healer station. When Healers on both sides are dead they proceed to smashing faces and the side with bigger numbers wins.

[Noran]

3 People in WoW could easily beat a disc priest or a druid. And that was a group based game because without your group and without their CC and their help you would die and die fast. MDPS beating Healer 1v1 easily is a poor choice for Group vs Group game.

I agree, but we have to point out that was in a darn sandbox with really limitied optionsto move.

[Liang]

The whole argument is abyssmal that a healer should have the advantage over mdps.

I disagree, and I backed that up with cold hard facts.

Frankly this generation of MMO players have been spoiled, I wish mythic stuck with the DAOC formula where casters/healers were incredibly powerful but as soon as a melee stuck on them they were gimped.Actually, your generation of MMO players have been spoiled... anyone that hasn't seen how great it was back in the Diku days simply doesn't deserve the right to post on any MMO forum. Right? Right? Oh, that's right, new people's thoughts are always "invalidated" with this argument.

If you think healer survivability sucks, ask mythic to buff Tank capabilities. This is an rvr game.An interesting tactic to take - instead of fixing the obviously broken class, we instead elect to boost a set of classes that are largely doing well for themselves - and hope that "trickle down gameonomics" works. Very interesting indeed. :)

Just an FYI, but historically speaking, trickle down gameonomics doesn't work. ;-)

For one it would be graet if mythic made guard have a longer range and could be casted on on group members.I'm all for that, but you're fooling yourself if you think that's a solution in and of itself.

I never want to see anything that is remotely suggestedi n this thread that alludes to wow-like healer survivability. Having 3-4 classes beating on a resto druid/disc priest was ridiculous. This is a group based game. If you have a tank baby sitting you and he still can't prevent you from dying, then buff tanks. If you think your healing is weak, buff healers. Tanks are suppose to be your lifeline.Ah, but nobody is really asking for healers to be able to tank 3-4 people beating on them... but on the flip side of your argument, healers should not be "free kills" simply because they started being hit on by an MDPS class. Like you said - this is a group based game... and like I said, use your infinitely scaling DPS to overcome the asymptotic scaling healing.

However, I don't disagree with the overall sentiment of your post - requiring a whole group of people to kill one person should be discouraged.... but really you must admit that requiring a whole group of people to save one person should also be discouraged.

I won't leave you with nothing, though. One way to go about fixing this problem is to give ranged healers damage reflection abilities that deal damage and heal at the same time. Also, these abilities would need to be have alot more oomph added to them. Um, illustrated:

def apply_shield_of_sapphery(target, dmg_source, damage_amt):
reflected_damage = min(target.shield_hp_remaining, damage_amt)
target.shield_hp_remaining -= reflected_damage

target.apply_damage(damage_amount)
target.apply_healing(reflected_damage)
dmg_source.apply_damage(damage_amount)

if target.shield_hp_remaining == 0:
target.remove_shield()

Meh, maybe anyway. The thought isn't fully formed, because it's far easier to see a problem than to come up with an intelligent and rational solution.

-Liang

Ed: Clarification of pseudocode, renamed variable.

[Ayamo]

I'm not sure what the deal is with healers complaining so much.


Yes, we are (don't go armory bashing, I specced sac for 1 lvl to farm pq's, and yes I'm a dok, but still a healer, and still the target of assist trains and mdps ganks), underperforming a bit compared to mdps, and 1v1 can be a total joke (also playing as zealot with 5 dps max),

But come on, did you ever play anything outside of a healer?

If I get shot as melee I will die (a hell of a lot)
If I get shot as ranged I will die (already a lot less)

If I get targetted as healer, I throw some hots up, and move to the backline.

Healers need love, healers need to be able to keep targets up a bit better without overpowering them. But your job isn't even close as frustrating as lets say, playing a squishi mdps.

[Khaelann]

Your remarks here prompted me to post this thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236444) related to the RF/SE offhand regeneration topic. If you actually run out with a purple offhand, then I'm curious to know if WP offhands are bugged, or if you're exaggerating downward the amount of SE you actually regenerate.


I responded to your post with SS showing that the chalices are regening the amount I stated.

Also, this ss shows a KE+KV+SS+KE combo during combat: http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/5301/khaelann034xo7.jpg

As you can see, I have 146 SE remaining and I stated that it would be -122SE from the initial setting.

250SE -122SE = 128SE. Now, the cast bug is around 0.7s and it affects both KEs so that would explain why I have more SE than the math would indicate(as it takes longer to cast, there is more time to regen).

PS. Those stats are with 0 talismans slotted :)

[Khaelann]

Healers need love, healers need to be able to keep targets up a bit better without overpowering them. But your job isn't even close as frustrating as lets say, playing a squishi mdps.

I have a BG and WE alt and both of them are easier and less frustrating than my DoK. The gameplay alone is alot simpler on them and the role is alot more forgiving than that of a healer.

[Liang]

Healers need love, healers need to be able to keep targets up a bit better without overpowering them. But your job isn't even close as frustrating as lets say, playing a squishi mdps.

I disagree, playing "squishie" MDPS (WH/WE) is far more fun and less frustrating than playing a healer. My WH gets some healer love and I go off on a 6 killing blow rampage... I get blinked at by MDPS on my AM and I'm hoping someone has a rez spell handy.

Healers shouldn't be overpowered, but nor should they be free renown.

-Liang

[Noran]

I'm not sure what the deal is with healers complaining so much.


Yes, we are (don't go armory bashing, I specced sac for 1 lvl to farm pq's, and yes I'm a dok, but still a healer, and still the target of assist trains and mdps ganks), underperforming a bit compared to mdps, and 1v1 can be a total joke (also playing as zealot with 5 dps max),

But come on, did you ever play anything outside of a healer?

If I get shot as melee I will die (a hell of a lot)
If I get shot as ranged I will die (already a lot less)

If I get targetted as healer, I throw some hots up, and move to the backline.

Healers need love, healers need to be able to keep targets up a bit better without overpowering them. But your job isn't even close as frustrating as lets say, playing a squishi mdps.

Im sorry.

But I cant really understand neither as AM nor DoK that you get killed by single mdps ?

But im really going to start thinking that you have geared somewhat non survival way.
Any healer that has been bashed through t3 and halfway t4 knows that you cant heal when you are dead, and thus gear properly to ignore whole willpower and stack everything else this beeing wounds/thoughness/armos(in dok / wp case) and so you can easily stand your grounds against many mdps.

Oofcourse this needs a good group, preferrd as premade when you get help from others under 10secs on time.

I think the whole point of healer survival is so thightly tied to 'other ppls helping' you that many ppls that havent experienced 'true' premades where everyone does their best for 24/7. So there is enourmous gap between these good groups and standard pugs.

[Ayamo]

I disagree, playing "squishie" MDPS (WH/WE) is far more fun and less frustrating than playing a healer. My WH gets some healer love and I go off on a 6 killing blow rampage... I get blinked at by MDPS on my AM and I'm hoping someone has a rez spell handy.

Healers shouldn't be overpowered, but nor should they be free renown.

-Liang


Guess we got different pov's then.


As dark rites I die about 3 times max a game (7 times if there is a fetch machine:))
As sac I die about 8-9 times a game if I don't go support, or I'm just trying to chase a squishi while eating 300 kinds of snares:)


To both you and the one above you, there is more melee than WH/We's:)

[Ayamo]

Im sorry.

But I cant really understand neither as AM nor DoK that you get killed by single mdps ?






I'm saying the opposite mate. I hardly ever die as healer, so I kinda like the job more. All other classes are almost (if not completely) dependent on getting spam healed:)

Edit: I stack toughness/wounds as dark rites;)

[Liang]

To both you and the one above you, there is more melee than WH/We's:)

You are the one that implied the WH/WE by specifically specifying that you were talking about "squishie" MDPS. :)

Also, did your "I guess we have diff POVs" mean that healers should be free renown?

-Liang

[KatzenKratzen]

To both you and the one above you, there is more melee than WH/We's:)
If Marauder and WL are squishy then I am Paul Barnett.

that havent experienced 'true' premades where everyone does their best for 24/7. So there is enourmous gap between these good groups and standard pugs.
steamrolling pugs as a pre is srs business and can be used as an indicator of class performance.

[Ayamo]

You are the one that implied the WH/WE by specifically specifying that you were talking about "squishie" MDPS. :)

-Liang


Meh, I didn't mean it literaly, but I guess you got a point.

[Ayamo]

If Marauder and WL are squishy then I am Paul Barnett.


Anything that can be dropped in seconds when focus fired is squishi in my opion.

[Noran]

I'm saying the opposite mate. I hardly ever die as healer, so I kinda like the job more. All other classes are almost (if not completely) dependent on getting spam healed:)

Edit: I stack toughness/wounds as dark rites;)

Butbutbut but what is this: =)
Healers need love, healers need to be able to keep targets up a bit better without overpowering them. But your job isn't even close as frustrating as lets say, playing a squishi mdps.

We actually dont need love, only the Order one odes, because they are already limited to WP-heal trains that doesnt work at all, seen that myself. But maybe R-healers like AM/Shaman need some hugging, but my god let it not be the same cast times as DoK / WP, because they can be AP feeded and have pots that ran far supreme than our offhand items.

[Liang]

Anything that can be dropped in seconds when focus fired is squishi in my opion.

So your definition is that everything in the whole game is squishie? There's a looooot of unmitigatable DPS out there.

-Liang

[Noran]

If Marauder and WL are squishy then I am Paul Barnett.
I agree on that =)


steamrolling pugs as a pre is srs business and can be used as an indicator of class performance.

Okies mate, i think i have explain myself little. I havent done serious Scene farming since huh early t2, and after that it has been always premade-premade-premade, So from where im standing - lets say the luck view.. I really cant uderstand even half of these comments said here, because they dont excist for me.

Thus If Mythic goes and beefs up the healers even more, do you know how ppls like me are going to feel .. yeah the god mode - thats the only way i say it so make it sound right.

[Ayamo]

Butbutbut but what is this: =)





I'm not talking about my survive there at all am I?:), Rather about keeping other people topped: >

Thus If Mythic goes and beefs up the healers even more, do you know how ppls like me are going to feel .. yeah the god mode - thats the only way i say it so make it sound right.

Nice rewards for not bein able to kill anyone? : >

And yeah, thats what I meant with not overpowering anyone, and probaly the reason, mythic didn't throw in a healer buff yet:)

[Ayamo]

So your definition is that everything in the whole game is squishie? There's a looooot of unmitigatable DPS out there.

-Liang


Tanks who realise what stats to stack won't die quick, they just won't. Its probaly why I love to have them in my group, cause my heals actually reach their max on them:rolleyes:

[Noran]

I'm not talking about my survive there at all am I?:), Rather about keeping other people topped: >

meeeh, ok think i missed your point.. WTB english lessons

[Khaelann]

Anything that can be dropped in seconds when focus fired is squishi in my opion.

The heaviest defensive tanks stacking Initiative, Wounds and Toughness, having the best defensive buffs available to them can and have been focus fired down in an instant. All it takes is some coordination morale skills or enough DPS all assist training and putting down a healing debuff on the target.

[KatzenKratzen]

Okies mate, i think i have explain myself little. I havent done serious Scene farming since huh early t2, and after that it has been always premade-premade-premade, So from where im standing - lets say the luck view.. I really cant uderstand even half of these comments said here, because they dont excist for me.

Thus If Mythic goes and beefs up the healers even more, do you know how ppls like me are going to feel .. yeah the god mode - thats the only way i say it so make it sound right.
If you'd get to play against premades and only premades during that time you'd know a LOT of problems :roll: Premade vs Pug is a joke and can't be even taken into account when you talk about balance discussions.

[Ayamo]

If you'd get to play against premades and only premades during that time you'd know a LOT of problems :roll:

Tell me about it, getting steamrolled 5 hours a day in SP by guilds who are afraid to show their faces in orvr:rolleyes:

[Liang]

Tanks who realise what stats to stack won't die quick, they just won't. Its probaly why I love to have them in my group, cause my heals actually reach their max on them:rolleyes:

There was this one time that 3 WE's attacked a Sword/Board SM about 40' ahead of me. I instantly dropped shield on him and started Boon. He died before Boon finished casting.

There was another time that a few friends and I were rolling with our Scout spec SW's and instadropped a tank from full health.

-Liang

Ed: Yes, I'm aware that plural anecdote is not data, but "they just won't" is at best not quite true. According to your definition, everything is squishie. But just go ahead and say it: you consider all non-tanks squishies. It's a reasonable thing to say... dunno why you didn't say it to start with.

[Noran]

If you'd get to play against premades and only premades during that time you'd know a LOT of problems :roll: Premade vs Pug is a joke and can't be even taken into account when you talk about balance discussions.

But do you see my point ? im decked in almost top notch gear and even its a premade from Order it really doesnt stand a change because we roll in 3 different healers usually 2 tanks (Bg and something). And If you give our healers that includes me even more survival, then you can see me posting PvP clips on WHM and showing how biased the game really can be.

Im just trying to nail down the point that premades cant be compared in anyway with pugs, and as I understand 99% of ppls run in pugs. So how the other end of the ppls would see this ? aka this would overpower even more the fact "more healer equals dead certain win". And Im rather against it. I would liek to see nice fights where My counter part has changes to beat me down 20-30 times in row, but as things are now that aint going to happen ever.

[Khaelann]

Tell me about it, getting steamrolled 5 hours a day in SP by guilds who are afraid to show their faces in orvr:rolleyes:

Stop doing SP then? I dont do scenarios unless we lock zones yet I can find PvP whenever I want to. You're even on the same server so all you need to do is hook up with a proper guild and start going at it.

[Shalaa]

There was this one time that 3 WE's attacked a Sword/Board SM about 40' ahead of me. I instantly dropped shield on him and started Boon. He died before Boon finished casting.

There was another time that a few friends and I were rolling with our Scout spec SW's and instadropped a tank from full health.

-Liang

Ed: Yes, I'm aware that plural anecdote is not data, but "they just won't" is at best not quite true. According to your definition, everything is squishie. But just go ahead and say it: you consider all non-tanks squishies. It's a reasonable thing to say... dunno why you didn't say it to start with.

I find somtimes you can be one shotted by knockbacks, I find this happens quite frequently on my doks as tanks tend not to want to go toe to toe with you. Maybe the tank died from the same bug?

[Ayamo]

Stop doing SP then? I dont do scenarios unless we lock zones yet I can find PvP whenever I want to. You're even on the same server so all you need to do is hook up with a proper guild and start going at it.


I stopped doing it, only thing popping up (except for G-caverns), as healer you are pretty dependant on rvr, but getting huge lag since the server crash (cause of the maw battle) so orvr isn't an option. So went back to sac for pve farming. MIght go look for a guild when I go back to healbot.


On topic, give AM's some def, get the whole thing ''healzors are bad'' thing over with (they aren't, healing is still great), and go enjoy your class.

[Ayamo]

There was this one time that 3 WE's attacked a Sword/Board SM about 40' ahead of me. I instantly dropped shield on him and started Boon. He died before Boon finished casting.

There was another time that a few friends and I were rolling with our Scout spec SW's and instadropped a tank from full health.

-Liang

Ed: Yes, I'm aware that plural anecdote is not data, but "they just won't" is at best not quite true. According to your definition, everything is squishie. But just go ahead and say it: you consider all non-tanks squishies. It's a reasonable thing to say... dunno why you didn't say it to start with.


Probaly to avoid the ''so you also talk about range then'' comment:rolleyes: