Archmage Dps discussion

[Nightz]

Ok since they are support do any of you think they will be up there for dps with the range dps classes like bright wizard or no? also will support classes be killed quickly when in comes to melee combat (excluding the melee support classes ie: warrior priest and disciple) and i dont mean them trying to melee back i mean like if a melee dps char snuk up on you would they be able to get rid of ur hp in like 5 seconds? Ive noticed that two melee dps classes took out a warrior pretty quick like not giving him much time to run at all. that quick. which scares me because archmage has even less armor then that but since archmage is ranged that might different i just wanted to run that by you all and see whatt you have to say about it thanks!:)

i have no clue what class to be i like dmg and magic and range but i like living and doing dmg. IM SO CONFUSED Lol

[Truce]

It's very likely that the archmage will have some significant restrictions on their damage abilities. They will not be as effective in that role as a dedicated ranged attack class like a bright wizard. This doesn't necessarily mean they will have low damage, though. They might instead have shorter range or more expensive damage spells. We don't know exactly, but some kind of limiter will be there.

As far as defense, yes, the class is likely to be pretty fragile and vulnerable to melee classes. They'll probably have to survive more through good positioning and kiting skills than through armor. Once again, we don't know just how long they'll last, though, as it's probably something that's still being balanced.

[Nightz]

oh that makes me wanna reroll a melee dps class even thought hey get picked off by range classes as well as tanks but if melee gets close to ranged ppl they are screwed idk.....so hard to decide but i think ranged classes will get advantages against melee dps classes because of the knockback affects and roots plus heals idk time will tell i might reroll shammy or something with good armor....

[Foofmonger]

A shaman is not fundamentally different then an Archmage really. They are very very similar classes, don't expect the shaman to have randomly better armor.

Anyway, I'm sure the Archmage will be capable of good dps. While they won't have the burst or sustained damage of a ranged dps, nor the kiting utility most likely.

[Theomega]

One of the devs, I can't remember who, said that the Archmage will be the most powerful caster in the game. Whether that means DPS or not, I don't know.

[Kevinskewl]

so hard to decide but i think ranged classes will get advantages against melee dps classes

I'm pretty sure they mentioned in the archetype video that ranged dps classes are weak against melee dps because "melee dps can close-in quickly and deal high damage against the ranged classes extremely light armor."

[Foofmonger]

I'm pretty sure they mentioned in the archetype video that ranged dps classes are weak against melee dps because "melee dps can close-in quickly and deal high damage against the ranged classes extremely light armor."

Yep, Ranged DPS is supposed to be strongest against tanks.

However, thats a 1 on 1 situation. If you have a wall of ranged DPSers, its tough for melee to get up to them to do anything.

[Nightz]

True but not everything Mythic says will be true. If i see a melee dps class running at me im gonna snare them gets some distances and start capping them but will difference archtypes get different run speeds?

[Jorval/Skyden]

Seriously, how can you expect a support class to have a DPS on par with those of the ranged DPS archetype? An Archmage will certainly not have the raw power of a Bright Wizard, simply because he can also heal and that would make him insanely overpowered.

Expect the Archmage to have other tools to hold his own on 1 on 1 against s Witch Elf or a Marauder (possibly some form of crowd control, maybe stuns, maybe some instant HoT) but he won't definitely have the strongest nukes in the game. That would be silly, and of course Mythic knows better.

If you want raw power you shouldn't roll a support class, it's that simple.

[Foofmonger]

True but not everything Mythic says will be true. If i see a melee dps class running at me im gonna snare them gets some distances and start capping them but will difference archtypes get different run speeds?

Its a safe bet to assume that Ranged DPS will have better kiting tools then Support.

[Nightz]

Yeah but support have some pretty good kiting spells as well probably just not as many. I hope a support classes get a knock back effect like the shamans i love the idea of being able to shoot someone backwards although i wish it didnt push me back as well but i will take what i can get

[Nightz]

Seriously, how can you expect a support class to have a DPS on par with those of the ranged DPS archetype? An Archmage will certainly not have the raw power of a Bright Wizard, simply because he can also heal and that would make him insanely overpowered.

Expect the Archmage to have other tools to hold his own on 1 on 1 against s Witch Elf or a Marauder (possibly some form of crowd control, maybe stuns, maybe some instant HoT) but he won't definitely have the strongest nukes in the game. That would be silly, and of course Mythic knows better.

If you want raw power you shouldn't roll a support class, it's that simple.

I don't want raw power im just saying will their Dps even come close? because arnt archmages support to be the strongest caster in the game even though i highly doubt that.
but yeah i just am wondering because if they cant at least do deacent Dps they mine as well be standing at the back healing but i trust mythic to do their jobs and make it balanced

[Foofmonger]

Yeah but support have some pretty good kiting spells as well probably just not as many. I hope a support classes get a knock back effect like the shamans i love the idea of being able to shoot someone backwards although i wish it didnt push me back as well but i will take what i can get

Of course. I'm not trying to assert that Support won't be able to kite. Just not as well as Ranged DPS.

[Vimes]

Well, every class has some kind of mirror class on the opposing side, and in the case of the Archmage it´s the Greenskin´s Goblin Shaman.

And as far as I have heard the Shaman has some good (not great, but considering it´s a support class) Damage. It´s been some time since I´ve heard that though...

[Fdzzaigl]

Don't worry, probably these guys will become the face-melters in this game :)

[Dastion]

One of the devs, I can't remember who, said that the Archmage will be the most powerful caster in the game. Whether that means DPS or not, I don't know.

The Archmage is the most powerful in that they have such a wide variety of abilities. Rather than being focused in one wind they are generalized in them all. So no, they won't outdo any of the specialized casters..but they should have a wide variety of abilities for many situations.

Expect their damage to be near the Goblin Shaman, but their main benefit is going to be draining enemies and using that drained power to heal allies.

Also, as far as I can tell, support ranged casters don't have a readily usable AoE, whereas ranged DPS do..taht alone is a huge advantage. But, expect support classes to have better "Oh !" abilities to save their asses.

[Nightz]

So they will be well rounded. Maybe semi-hybrid or hybrid. By well rounded i mean have the most variety of spells. Maybe Cc, knockbacks, snares, dots, hots, drains, buffs?, ect. That waht i exspect them to be at least idk if thats right or not.

[gstwo]

About archmages, I was just wondering from a lore point of view. I used to play high elves in the gamesworkshop game, and I remember and recall the tale of the twin brothers. One of them being Teclis, the "most powerful" conjurer of magic in the world of the gamesworkshop. I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, it's been many years since I played high elves in the gamesworkshop game, but weren't the high elf conjurers of magic supposed to be some of the, if not, the most powerful conjurers of magic? Or has Mythic gone and put them more as a support class? I keep hearing from ya'll that they are a support class...so does that mean that we will never be able to be on par with Teclis, the most famous high elven spellcaster? I was just wondering, please correct me on any information that I am wrong in since like I said before....I haven't played the gamesworkshop game in ages. Perhaps I'm getting the lore mixed up. I just hope that you all can clarify this as I wanted to be like Teclis and so I decided I want to be an archmage when the game comes out. Any information would be most appreciative.

[Are'el]

The Archmage is not going to have DPS that's even close to a RDPS Class. After all, with better armor and healing abilities, it would be grossly unfair. You will have decent damaging abilities, just don't expect any quick kills.

They will have some CC, probably. If you look at their counterpart, the Goblin Shaman, you see that he has a couple of spells for stopping enemies. "Eeek!" sends you and the enemy running off in different directions, hopefully putting some distance. "Gork sez stop!" puts a DoT on the enemy that will only go away if they stand still for 3 seconds, meaning they take damage if they choose to chase you. So expect the Archmage to have a few tricks up their sleeves.

[Ceandric]

I believe that the main reasoning for making the archmage a support character instead of a ranged dps char is that "Yes, they are among the greatest known spellcasters, but their strength isn't neccessarily just in the direct damage, but rather in being able to use whatever magic that proves the most useful to the situation. Reducing enemy efficiency while boosting their allies AND doing damage themselves.

Ofcourse I expect the archmage to have quite a devestating offensive capability, but their main strenght is utility :)

[Estebar]

I'm pretty confident that the reason they ended up downplaying the Drain Magic mechanic on the Archmage (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/HighElves/Careers/Archmage.php) profile was because they subsequently decided to create the three career paths for each class, and the Drain Magic specialist path is likely to be one of them. A ranged damage specialist might also be on the cards, but I doubt they'll be as effective as the official ranged dps classes.

Thinking about it, the three Archmage class paths are likely to specialise in aspects of their role as Healer/Support. So, one might specialise in especially powerful healing spells, another might have particularly effective offensive spells (not for their damage but for their ability to gain extra AP for healing spells) and the third might be the Drain Magic specialist, who could very well be a Debuff/Drain expert focusing on the more irritating aspects of the Healer/Support classes. ;)

[gstwo]

Ahhh, I see what ya'll are talking about. That's kewl. I was just wanting some clarification and that was quite elaborate and detailed, which I am thankful for. Anyways, I guess then I was wondering where I could see more about the lore of the twin brothers and what they have to do with Ulthuan and the high elves in warhammer online since that is something that I am quite interested in. I will be checking more about that on the website, but yeah...I am quite interested in becoming an archmage, particularly due to the comment about archmages being able to conjure up all the winds of magic, based on the situation. I think that that is sweet. I will be looking forward to more discussions on this class as I am quite looking forward to more insights from the community at large as well as from warhammeronline itself.
:p

[Dastion]

I think the reason they downplayed Drain Magic on the career profile was because they discovered that no matter what stat you might be draining, be it AP or some stat, it would be silly for me to waste my time casting Drains on a silly little mob that's going to die in a couple of nukes. So, therefore, while soloing Archmages wouldn't have an easy time using their special mechanic. In order to counter this, they added in the aspect of also being able to recapture the lingering energies of their destructive magic for later use.

[Mortissia]

Its a safe bet to assume that Ranged DPS will have better kiting tools then Support.

This is in no way "safe" to assume. The Archmage may have wonderful kiting abilities. It would be part of their possible less damage but more "powerful" package of skills. The best kiters in DAoC were "support" (I'm thinking of Mana Eldrich, Suppression Rune Master, and Shaman).

Of course the Archmage may have no kiting abilities at all. The Archmage will almost certainly have better defensive abilities than a Ranged DPS (other than burn down before they get you defense). Kiting can be both defensive and offensive. It is usually both at the same time.

[Antheus]

I dont really understand why everyone is so focused on support = healing. There are tons of buffs/debuffs/utility effects that are can be classed as a support spell.

And the dev's are saying the the archmage will be a support class (nuker/healer). Not a healer with direct dmg spells. I think we will get 33% Dmg spells/ 33% healing spells and 33% "support/utility" spells.

I think the other casters that are RDPS will do more dmg the the archmage, no doubt about it.. but.. I still think that archmage still have some good offensive abilitys, if a archmage decides to hurt you.. he will :)

[Dastion]

As it's been said many times, every career in WAR will be able to fight. Being able to fight is the norm for EVERY career in WAR. Simple as that. What differentiates the careers is HOW they fight. Tanks can fight, of course, but they also protect allies and hinder enemies. M. DPS focuses on doing damage in melee, and doing it well. R. DPS focuses on doing it at long range and sometimes in areas. Support careers deal damage, but their main focus is keeping allies alive. Be that through buffing them, debuffing enemies, or directly healing.

The statement that support != healing is correct, there are many ways to support without healing. However, as it's been stated many times over the career archetype is NOT "Support" the Archetype is Healing. Support is a role, it's counter is DPS. Under the role of support are tanks and healers, and under the role of DPS are M.DPS and R.DPS. Each and every healing career will be able to heal well and, in general, is likely to be expected to heal. If you take a look at the Warrior Priest's trees he does NOT have a damage tree, rather, the closest thing to a damage tree he has is one which allows him to better hamper his enemies through melee attacks. By hampering his enemies (snares, ect) he keeps them off allies (therefore less healing is needed), and by fighting he builds up RF for healing or buffing as needed. It's a synergy process in which him dealing damage allows him to support the party, whereas a M.DPS who is fighting is doing his role to kill enemies fast, and yes all gear/levels/ect equal he will likely always out DPS the Warrior Priest. This isn't WoW where each class has a spec for nearly completely changing their playstyle, it's not a game where each spec HAS to be viable in a definitive role (i.e. Ret pallies in wow are usually disliked because they aren't felt to bring enough to a raid to warrant losing a rogue. This isn't always true, but perception is what matters).


Lastly, healers, no matter what game, will always be needed. If you're a good healer, you run the group. The tank may lead the way, but he lives and dies by how good of a player you are. If the group just wants to run one part of an instance and skip some bosses, and the healer says he'll only come if they sidetrack for the boss he wants...guess what? Most times the party will sidetrack... healers are needed. But, with such powerful sway of the group comes blame for failures. A bad healer is quickly disposed of and blacklisted if he's REALLY bad, while a good healer is sought from the instant they log in. Don't get me wrong, WAR healers will be able to kick some serious tail.. but in the end they will still be a support career in a game where the devs have already said each and every mastery will still keep you in your mainrole and simply adjust how you perform said role.

[Kaeldor]

I dont really understand why everyone is so focused on support = healing. There are tons of buffs/debuffs/utility effects that are can be classed as a support spell.

And the dev's are saying the the archmage will be a support class (nuker/healer). Not a healer with direct dmg spells. I think we will get 33% Dmg spells/ 33% healing spells and 33% "support/utility" spells.

I think the other casters that are RDPS will do more dmg the the archmage, no doubt about it.. but.. I still think that archmage still have some good offensive abilitys, if a archmage decides to hurt you.. he will :)

But there is no "support" archtype, they officially call them "healer" for a reason. If you don't play egoistically everything is "support". For DPS classes, their damage is supporting the group, and as a healer you do it with healing. Of course will every class have some other things to support a group, like CC, buffs etc. But if you are an archmage, your salespoint is healing, that will be the reason why you are taking into groups. That doesn't mean you can't do damage, or buff or whatever, but that won't be the reason why people want you. And where does the words nuker/healer hint to "support/utility"? Not that an archmage won't have those, but the sentence "the class will be a nuker/healer and not a healer with direct damage spells" sounds a bit strange to me.

[Gemini]

But there is no "support" archtype, they officially call them "healer" for a reason.

They "officially" called them support, healer, healer/support in different videos. Does it really matter if one person calls them support and another calls them a healer? We both know what each other means.

[Kaeldor]

They "officially" called them support, healer, healer/support in different videos. Does it really matter if one person calls them support and another calls them a healer? We both know what each other means.

I think it does, because of the connotations and expectations you have of a class is different if you hear healer or support. But thanks for correcting me, I really thought they officially only call them healers (like in the archtype pod). I hope for all those people who would like to play such a class, that in the end they get something like Antheus above wants, but I really doubt it. The few classes who can heal, probalby will have to heal a lot in rvr if they care to be in a group. I think 60% to 70% healing and the rest divided between damage and other stuff is more likely, than 33% each. But of course it's all guessing.

[Foofmonger]

This is in no way "safe" to assume. The Archmage may have wonderful kiting abilities.


Its an expression, but I guess you haven't heard it where you live.

Thats true, the Archmage may have great kiting abilities, and it may not.


It would be part of their possible less damage but more "powerful" package of skills. The best kiters in DAoC were "support" (I'm thinking of Mana Eldrich, Suppression Rune Master, and Shaman).


And the best kiters in many other games (say WoW) were Ranged DPS /shrug. It can go either way really.

And actually, that statement is highly debatable anyway. There are plenty of classes in DAoC that are good at kiting, and not all are support (Skalds come to mind immediately lol)


Of course the Archmage may have no kiting abilities at all. The Archmage will almost certainly have better defensive abilities than a Ranged DPS


Well, thats another safe assumption. I agree with you, but the Archmage for all we know, could randomly have worse defensive abilities. Although it isn't likely haha.


(other than burn down before they get you defense). Kiting can be both defensive and offensive. It is usually both at the same time.

Kiting can't be offensive alone, the inherent act of it is a form of defense, although it can sort of have no offense, but thats debatable to really call kiting, more just running. Its either completely defensive (as in, you are running the hell away trying to keep yourself alive), or offensive and defensive (while running, you deal damage to them).

[Dastion]

The main point between pointing out that the Official Archetype is Healer and not "Support" is that while Healing implies Support (since support is simply a broad category rather than an archetype), Support does not necessarily imply Healing. In EQ1 Enchanters were definitely a support class, but they couldn't heal. So therefore, even if they do refer to them as Support on occassion they are STILL healers. Which is fine, I mean, they refer to Witch Elves as DPS rather than M.DPS at times, doesn't meant they'll be good at ranged DPS.

Each race has their healer, No the healers won't have to stand back and spam heal in order to support their group. This is a PvP game, not PvE. Being able to defend yourself is necessary. Don't expect there to be a "DPS spec" for healers though, there will be offensive specs, for sure, but even those will in someway help you heal.