The Disciple as an Adaptation

[Smarticus]

There are certain things an mmo must have to succeed. These conventions are paramount; if the lore/setting prevents this, then the setting has to be adapted, perhaps even changed. [Has Mythic taken too many liberties? I don't know, and I'm not going to revisit that debate.] I just want to take a look at the Disciple from a game designer's point of view.

-The game must have tanks, healers and dps roles. This doesn't necessarily mean there must be rigid classes (although that's the easiest way). Even if a race in the tabletop game specializes in ranged combat, for example, it still needs to have a tank class in the mmo.

Does WHO need a healing mechanic? After all, action rpg's like Hellgate, Diablo and Guild Wars don't have healers. I think, though, that having one provides for a deeper strategy overall; in action-rpg's party makeup is never an issue, and characters are not dependent on one another in any real way. I think you lose something with that approach, especially since mmo's are much more oriented to social play.

-The classes must be "mainstream" in their respective societies. Your charatcer will visit and shop in his/her hometown frequently and talk to major Warhammer characters; it would be difficult for them to be an outcast or part of some underground movement.

When they made the Disciple of Khaine, I'm guessing this is what they were thinking: "We need a class that can heal, and it needs to be an important, recognized part of Dark Elf society." The Sorceress might have filled the role, but the High Elves already have an "arcane" healer in the Archmage, and Mythic probably didn't want to copy it. Hence the invention of the Disciple class. It may or may not have been the right choice to make, but I at least understand why they made it.

Could they have made a Disciple of someone else instead? Maybe, but I believe they wanted to stick to a single, coherent theme for the Dark Elves. Besides, it's already been stated that Slaanesh is too taboo to make it in a Teen rated game, and it makes more sense to use a god the Dark Elves already have than to make up a new one.

Should Khaine grant healing powers, based on what we know about him? The lore doesn't strictly say yes or no; a lot depends on how you interpret it. Some people view Khaine the same way they view Baal or Cyric in D&D--sure, they're gods of murder, but they still give clerics healing spells, like ny other god. Then again, the Warhammer gods may not follow that pattern.

On the one hand, perhaps Khaine is like Khorne: any death is a good death, even that of his own followers; thus healing would be out of character. I don't know why someone would worship such a god--there doesn't seem to be anything in it for them--but that's just me.

On the other hand, maybe Khaine is like Nurgle--he protects his followers from what he represents. Devotees of Nurgle or infested with plagues, but they themselves don't suffer for it. By the same token, perhaps Khaine allows his favored souls to be healed and resurrected in exchange for their loyalty and devotion to his ideals. He wouldn't be much of a god, after all, if all his worshippers were dead.

[Who knows--maybe Khaine likes murder so much, he resurrects people over and over so that they can be murdered again and again. Perhaps that's what happens to victims in his temples: they get disembowelled, then resurrected, then hacked to death, then resurrected, then crushed to death, then resurrected, then starved, then resurrected, ad nauseum, while Khaine watches from above with a deity-sized bucket of popcorn, enjoying the show, and preventing the poor victims from enjoying eternal rest with their own deities.]

As to the question of the Disciple's place in society, well, Mythic seems to think that Khaine could use a more generalized form of priesthood than Witch Elves alone provided. Again, it may or may not be the right choice; I'm not really qualified to say.

So while the Disciple may or may not represent a serious break with previous DE lore, it was, at least, a logical choice from a strictly gameplay point of view.

[Sinfjotle]

Could've let them use dark magic and not be part of the temple. Just like the sorceress.

Not going to bother arguing point by point because it's been discussed to death, I'm just going to point that one thing out. Take it or leave it I suppose.

[Dukha]

Could they have made a Disciple of someone else instead? Maybe, but I believe they wanted to stick to a single, coherent theme for the Dark Elves. Besides, it's already been stated that Slaanesh is too taboo to make it in a Teen rated game, and it makes more sense to use a god the Dark Elves already have than to make up a new one.


A coherent theme is'nt a bad idea so fair enough, for a MMO that's going for mainstream appeal sure. However, about the teen rating and Slaanesh they could just as easily have toned down Saalnesh to not threaten to violate the teen rating and still kept it closer to the original lore. Besides, a Slaanesh cult could have been just as cool with the approprate tuning I think.

As to the question of the Disciple's place in society, well, Mythic seems to think that Khaine could use a more generalized form of priesthood than Witch Elves alone provided. Again, it may or may not be the right choice; I'm not really qualified to say.

Personally I really liked that kinda crazed matriarch they had going so I I'm not that happy about it but what the heck, it's been discussed extesively anyways. And who knows maybe I will still get my matriarchy :D Fingers crossed and all that hehe.

Overall good and cosntructive points, hope this won't turn into yet another flamefest.

[Zunjin]

I think the concept by taking souls and sacrifice them for healing and ressurection abilites make the class sounds trustworthy in my ears. After all, most gods in warhammer are very interested in souls. Khaine steals souls which die a unatural death ( dying of age is a natural death ) and claim them for himself, therefor making it fitting for him to be a god of murder and war. If a chosen of his steals the soul of a enemy on the field by ripping it out of his/her flesh, which surely making his enemy die a unatural death :p , it would make sense he could thereafter trade it with his god for powers, alternative be granted powers as a blessing for his soulstealing act. This makes ressurection even believable as Khaine doesnt loose a soul in the progress. Afterall Khaine is granted one of the chosens enemies souls for not claiming the ressurected one.
As a endnote, healing and ressurection are mmo mechanics in our case as they didnt exist in the warhammer world to begin with. They are just there to make the game work, you dont have to define the class with them. The Disciple is not a healing monk in the eyes of his god or people. His a avatar of Khaine,a harvester of souls and a mass murderer.

[pzykozis]

to be honest the disciple is an adaptation from the idea that appeared in the malus darkblade books, and seems likely that its a mix between malus' sister Yasmir and his brother Urial.

Yasmir is as the concept art has been shown so far, although she is described as beautiful.. each to their own i guess but she has the iconic brass eyes which marks her as a chosen of khaine some people argue that mythic have made this up but i guess they haven't read these books. also within the heirarchal structure of the temple she is basically one step away from khaine in terms of reveration because of a prophecy involving more story driven fluff from the books.

Urial on the other hand was born physically handicapped and as such in druchii society cast into the cauldron of blood, because the weak cannot survive in naggaroth. unfortunately for urial he was so handicapped that he couldn't train as an assassin as other males that are cast into the cauldron and survive do, and so he was taught secret magics such as the ability to heal somewhat.. also he is a very skilled swordsman..

combining Urials physical / magical abilities and yasmir's brass eyes and guess what... you have the disciple.. lo, and behold mythic didn't make this class up at all. No, merely it was already in the malus series so if people want to complain about this class being made up then maybe they should blame Dan Abnett or.. games workshop for allowing him to do it.

[Sorceress]

maybe they should blame Dan Abnett or.. games workshop for allowing him to do it. Mike Lee's claimed responsibility for most of the lore in those novels on the Black Library forums and based on that I'd sooner blame him than Dan.
Dan wrote the original Darkblade comics where his over-the-top siblings didn't exist.

[Ashbringer]

[Who knows--maybe Khaine likes murder so much, he resurrects people over and over so that they can be murdered again and again. Perhaps that's what happens to victims in his temples: they get disembowelled, then resurrected, then hacked to death, then resurrected, then crushed to death, then resurrected, then starved, then resurrected, ad nauseum, while Khaine watches from above with a deity-sized bucket of popcorn, enjoying the show, and preventing the poor victims from enjoying eternal rest with their own deities.]



If that would be true IRL, I bet that gods would be so proud of us men, above all other races in the universe, for it was we who invented Reality TV!

[pzykozis]

Mike Lee's claimed responsibility for most of the lore in those novels on the Black Library forums and based on that I'd sooner blame him than Dan.
Dan wrote the original Darkblade comics where his over-the-top siblings didn't exist.

Well atleast within that occurence isn't it that sector of media that should be blamed and not mythic like alot of lore buffs are doing by saying that mythic are butchering the lore.

[Sorceress]

True but Mythic did chose to implement them and they were approved by Games Workshop. I can't speak for the other lore buffs but with the fate of the tabletop army also hanging in the balance (new army book out in a few months)- I'm *extremely* weary of any lore changes.

[Zunjin]

True but Mythic did chose to implement them and they were approved by Games Workshop. I can't speak for the other lore buffs but with the fate of the tabletop army also hanging in the balance (new army book out in a few months)- I'm *extremely* weary of any lore changes.

That new armybook is almost more interesting then WAR :p Hopefully I will be satisfied with alot of lovely concept art and background info.

[wis]

Yasmir got turned into a Witch elf/ Blood Witch. Nothing like a disciple. She was frenzy and wielded two blades. Danced around during battles and sliced people up.

[Smarticus]

...a Slaanesh cult could have been just as cool with the approprate tuning I think.

True--if my job was to write lore I'm sure I could have come up with something. I think in this case, I think Mythic decided the simplest approach was best. A priest of Khaine not only fits the "theme" of the Dark Elves but is easier to implement than a seperate religion.

...Personally I really liked that kinda crazed matriarch they had going...

Yeah, is it just me or does it seem fitting that the chosen of of the God of Murder were all women? Must say something about my attitiude in general (ducks to avoid objects thrown at me by my female friends).

[Smarticus]

Khaine steals souls which die a unatural death (dying of age is a natural death ) and claim them for himself, therefor making it fitting for him to be a god of murder and war. If a chosen of his steals the soul of a enemy on the field by ripping it out of his/her flesh...

I'd like you to elaborate on this point, since I'm not entirely familiar with the theology of Khaine. Does he steal souls that would normally go to other gods? That would make him, quite arguably, the most powerful deity in the Warhammer universe. There are many mythological creatures, after all, that can grant magical powers, but what truly makes a "god" is the ability affect your immortal spirit and your afterlife.

So if one of Sigmar's (or whomever's) followers dies at the hands of a follower of Khaine, the soul goes to Khaine, and there's nothing Sigmar or the other god can do about it? That's brutal, if you think about it. No wonder WAR is such a dismal place; you can live the best life possible and still end up in hell, just by chance.

At any rate, I think they at least got the mechanic spot on. The Sorceress destroys the body with magic, but the "healer" class goes after your soul. It fits the Dark Elves just right.

[Dukha]

Yeah, is it just me or does it seem fitting that the chosen of of the God of Murder were all women? Must say something about my attitiude in general (ducks to avoid objects thrown at me by my female friends).

Haha, I hadn't considered that :shock:
Anyhoo, there is an old acronym (I atleast think thats what you call it, english aint my first language) that can be related to this. KISS or Keep It Simple Stupid. So yeah, I can't really argue against that the Disciple will provide a uniform look for the dark elves and to make sure that players with no pre-existing knowledge of the back story won't feel alienated. Personally I still maintain that this approach is a tad to carefull and that a bit of complexity and diversity can help to enrich the setting rather than the opposite (not saying that it lacks those things as it is mind you, not at all).
However I think I will be a bit carefull from now on when voicing the opinion that the Witches should be the true chosen of Khaine, just in case some woman proves me right by throwing a heavy object at my head ;)

[wis]

Maybe this can clarify something about Khaine as he is seen from three different viewpoints for you Smarticus.

"The High Elves worship Khaine as a god of battle. He is primarily worshipped during times of war, as he is seen to be a bloodthirsty deity and worship of him during peacetime is not considered appropriate. Khaine had a strong influence on the formative period of the High Elven kingdom, as the first Phoenix King, Aenarion, drew Khaine's sword to save the High Elves during their first war with Chaos. By drawing the sword, Aenarion became a living avatar of the God of War brought down a great curse upon himself and his family. This curse still affects the current heirs of Aenarion's legacy, the twins Tyrion and Teclis.

Khaine as he is worshipped by the Dark Elves is described as a God of murder. This suits the harsh society of Dark Elves, who view any sign of weakness as a fatal flaw. Holy events dedicated to Khaine, such as the Harvest of Souls and Death Night, invariably involve killing. Fueled by the social Darwinism of Dark Elf culture, devotees of Khaine elevate killing to an art form and will gladly kill anyone - friend or foe - who displays vulnerability.

The primary Temple of Khaine resides in the fortress city of Har Ganeth in Naggaroth. It is a seat of great power, as the worship of Khaine is the official Dark Elf state religion. Morathi (the Queen Mother) and Crone Hellebron (the High Priestess of the temple) both claim supreme dominance of the temple, which often leads to conflicts. This power struggle is kept in check by Malekith, the Witch King of the Dark Elves."

Devotees come in three forms all devoted to the art of murder. Assasins, Executioners and the most important. Witch Elves!. His arts do not include healing. Only Killing. Khaine can only claim souls who are sacrificed in his name during intricate rituals. Let me emphazie again Dark Elves do not see Khaine as the God of Battle only High Elves do that. For Dark Elves he is the God Of Murder. The whole thing with male priests come from Mike Lee in the Darkblade books. He has admitted to the raping of lore on The Black Library forums. Because Dan Abnett wrote the original Darkblade comics and in them there was none of the lore raping seen in the novels. Mythic has also stated that they are basing WAR on a variety of Warhammer sources.

Humans see him this way.

"Among the humans of the Old World, Khaine is seen as the younger brother of Morr, the God of the dead, and he is worshiped as the Lord of Murder by asassins and other professional killers. It is said that Khaine is jealous of Morr's rulership over the dead, and thus also over death. Therefore he tries to steal as many souls as possible to fill out his own underworld. It is from this deathrealm that some necromancers call forth some of the souls that they enslave. Khaine can only steal souls that that have been directly sacrificed to him or have not received proper burial rites and are thus unprotected by Morr."

and the core of it is taken from codexes.

[Lord Tareq]

I'd like to see anyone read your post Wis (which is completely correct I might add), and then claim with a straight face that the Disciple of Khaine does not break existing Dark Elf lore. :rolleyes:

[Anglakhel]

Let me emphazie again Dark Elves do not see Khaine as the God of Battle only High Elves do that. For Dark Elves he is the God Of Murder.

This is simply not true and has been addressed many, many times in many different posts. The Druchii may revere Khaine as the Lord of Murder but they continue to worship him as a God of War, Destruction, Violence, and many other related aspects.

The Druchii revere him as 1000 Thousand Faced Khaine and he has just as many aspects.

The argument that Khaine is only a God of Murder for the Dark Elves is flat out false or an incredibly lazy simplification.

[wis]

Indeed but his role as the God of Murder was the first. The Aspects came later. These Aspects takes on animal forms. If im correct. You might call it lazy. But it was a simplification. Be my guest if you want to explain all the aspects.

Edit: More simplification

"Aspects"
Conversely, after the Sundering, the Dark Elves rejected the Elven pantheon and remodelled a single god, Khaine, into an image which suited their desire for bloody vengeance against their kin. The Druchii then expanded this god into a thousand aspects and at least seventeen secret names in order to broaden his teachings into every aspect of war which might aid them in retrieving their lost kingdom.

[Sindal]

I think we all understand the Disciple is not in the lore. I think we all understand that its going to take some rewriting to make it work.

That being said, is it that crazy that The Disciples are survivors of the cauldron who choose the Shepherd of war aspect of Khaine and learn how to augment his allies killing power?

I mean lets think about it. In goes a child, he comes out unscathed. Wow another one for the temple! cool! Boys go to the assassins to begin training in combat girls go to the witch elves to learn combat training. They come of age and begin showing extreme promise, eyes turn molten gold, Decide they want to become Disciples of Khaine and worship him as the Shepherd of war. Join the disciples and begin training in ritual, combat sacrifice, and augmenting their allies destructive power.

Everyone wins, temple gets more powerful unit they've been looking for in the TT, WE get a buffer, assassins get a buffer. Greater glory for Khaine. I just don't understand how true fans of the lore see this as such a terrible thing instead of the addition of something great.

EDIT:

"Aspects"
Conversely, after the Sundering, the Dark Elves rejected the Elven pantheon and remodelled a single god, Khaine, into an image which suited their desire for bloody vengeance against their kin. The Druchii then expanded this god into a thousand aspects and at least seventeen secret names in order to broaden his teachings into every aspect of WAR which might aid them in retrieving their lost kingdom.

I think you just proved yourself wrong?

[wis]

Interpretation!. i must admit i am not very knowledgeable about his aspects. That was a quote to simplify the aspects.

[Lord Tareq]

EDIT:



I think you just proved yourself wrong?

No he didn't. Wis never claimed Khaine has nothing to do with warfare, just that for the Dark Elves he isn't the God of Battle; he is the God of Murder. His aspects still help them with the war-effort, but for the Dark Elves he isn't a God of Battle in the way he originally was.

[wis]

I think we all understand the Disciple is not in the lore. I think we all understand that its going to take some rewriting to make it work.

That being said, is it that crazy that The Disciples are survivors of the cauldron who choose the Shepherd of war aspect of Khaine and learn how to augment his allies killing power?

I mean lets think about it. In goes a child, he comes out unscathed. Wow another one for the temple! cool! Boys go to the assassins to begin training in combat girls go to the witch elves to learn combat training. They come of age and begin showing extreme promise, eyes turn molten gold, Decide they want to become Disciples of Khaine and worship him as the Shepherd of war. Join the disciples and begin training in ritual, combat sacrifice, and augmenting their allies destructive power.

Everyone wins, temple gets more powerful unit they've been looking for in the TT, WE get a buffer, assassins get a buffer. Greater glory for Khaine. I just don't understand how true fans of the lore see this as such a terrible thing instead of the addition of something great.


If only that was the background for the disciple. I have no problem with the bending of lore to further gameplay. I have a problem with how it is presented. Because believe me it can be presented in ways so no contradiction will be made.

[Anglakhel]

Indeed but his role as the God of Murder was the first. The Aspects came later. These Aspects takes on animal forms. If im correct. You might call it lazy. But it was a simplification. Be my guest if you want to explain all the aspects.

Edit: More simplification

"Aspects"
Conversely, after the Sundering, the Dark Elves rejected the Elven pantheon and remodelled a single god, Khaine, into an image which suited their desire for bloody vengeance against their kin. The Druchii then expanded this god into a thousand aspects and at least seventeen secret names in order to broaden his teachings into every aspect of war which might aid them in retrieving their lost kingdom.

The aspects are not just animals, although many of the aspects are creatures: the manticore, harpies, the Iron Panther - Stalker in the Void. Lord of Murder is his most frequent title and I'm not disputing that in any way.

But your own citation explains my point:

The Druchii then expanded this god into a thousand aspects and at least seventeen secret names in order to broaden his teachings into every aspect of war which might aid them in retrieving their lost kingdom.

The Druchii worship him in "every aspect of war which might aid them in retrieving their lost kingdom."

Continuing to assert that he is only a God of Murder and that all his functions are captured under the title God of Murder or Lord of Murder is simply inaccurate. It's far too much of a simplification to capture the rich religion Khaine represents for the Druchii.

The TT Lore has not explained all of Khaine's aspects. We've gotten a few of the most important aspects that are recognized throughout Druchii culture. But there is plenty of room for many more aspects of Khaine and many more powers of the Lord of Murder.

The Disciple is an addition and transformation of the lore that takes advantage of the fact that Khaine has many, many aspects and has powers over "every aspect of war which might aid [the Druchii] in retrieving their lost kingdom."

Let's start worrying about how the Disciples, which are offical lore in WAR, fit into Khaine's enormously complicated cult and stop trying to shrink the worship of Khaine into a singular aspect so we can claim that Mythic is screwing up the lore. It's tired and I'm sorry if I seem short with your argument, but we've had all manner of reductionist arguments for months. It's time to deal with the lore being established for WAR.

[Sindal]

When they created Khaine as one god they broke him into a 1000 different aspects of war... thats exactly what that quote says is it not? Therefore he is still the god of war if thats what they based the entire founding of the temple on.... At least thats my interpretaion of it. That being said, even if he is now the god of murder like you say, he was still based on the god of war and that still opens up the chance to make an aspect or one of the 17 secret names something like the shephard of war as Mythic is calling it.

I mean think of the TT implications a unit like this could cause. HE could be the next chosen of Khaine like the Chaos chosen, or the slaanesh annointed etc. The temple has been needing a more rare powerful unit imo for a while.

[Sindal]

If only that was the background for the disciple. I have no problem with the bending of lore to further gameplay. I have a problem with how it is presented. Because believe me it can be presented in ways so no contradiction will be made.
I haven't had any coffee today maybe thats my problem but I don't really understand where you're going with this. How would you prefer it presented? Are you referring to the implications that the Disciple is over topping the WEs? I can def understand that one and was surprised they took that route myself.

sorry I'm just confused :confused:

Edit: Wow and a double post, time to fire up the coffee pot =p

[Foofmonger]

Sindal (and angla) makes a logical point based on the evidence presented.

If the DEs have made Khaine represent all facets of warfare, murder, and killing, then it makes sense that a Disciple could work in its current form.

As far as rewriting the temple hierarchy, thats easy. Due to the situation in the Age of Reckoning, Khaine has been preparing and prepping a new force within the elf army, his disciples. His disciples learn directly from him (thats what a disciple is), and are his true chosen, meaning that they are chosen to be most like their god (and thus I suppose, the most favorite). Where does this leave WE/Hags? The same place they are. Their role doesn't change. They are still his brides and priestess, and do all temple/cauldron stuff as they currently do. The disciples, while part of the the temple hierarchy, don't directly fit into any "power" structure. They can't command the WE/Hags to do anything, nor do the WE/Hags have power to tell them to do anything. They both take their direction directly from Khaine.

Thats not to say that the Hags/WEs aren't immensly jealous of Khaines decision to keep these disciples from them until now. There is a lot of animosity between the disciples and WE/Hags, but it isn't direct conflict, for Khaine needs all his followers for the upcoming conflict in the Age of Reckoning.

[Lord Tareq]

If you read the Malus Darkblade novels (from where they took the disciple idea) you can read there is a semi civil war going on between the "old" Temple of Khaine, and a new heretical faction (led by Malus Darkblade's brother Urial who basically is a disciple) who believe a certain person is the chosen of khaine to herald the apocalypse (I don't want to go into too much details for those wishing to read the novels). Obviously the Witch elves and executioners do not tolerate something like this, leading to a short civil war, wherein the Temple basically erradicated all these herretics.
Now in WAR, they have picked pieces of the darkblade novels (which are not really lore), pasted them into the warhammer lore, resulting into something that essentially is those heretics from Darkblade suddenly incorporated into the Temple, and not that alone but even a step above the Witch Elves in terms of favour.

[Foofmonger]

If you read the Malus Darkblade novels (from where they took the disciple idea) you can read there is a semi civil war going on between the "old" Temple of Khaine, and a new heretical faction (led by Malus Darkblade's brother Urial who basically is a disciple) who believe a certain person is the chosen of khaine to herald the apocalypse (I don't want to go into too much details for those wishing to read the novels). Obviously the Witch elves and executioners do not tolerate something like this, leading to a short civil war, wherein the Temple basically erradicated all these herretics.
Now in WAR, they have picked pieces of the darkblade novels (which are not really lore), pasted them into the warhammer lore, resulting into something that essentially is those heretics from Darkblade suddenly incorporated into the Temple, and not that alone but even a step above the Witch Elves in terms of favour.

It may not be "a step above". It could just be a different sort of favour.

If the Witch Elves/Hags are his brides and prietesses, they are striving to be with Khaine, not become him.

A disciple is someone who literally is trying to become "like" his master. Thus a disciple of Khaine strives to not be with Khaine, but to become like Khaine.

In my eyes, the best way to do this is to not have the disciples anywhere in the temple structure. They don't run the temple, and they have no say what goes on in the temple. However, they are tolerated by the temple due to the fact that they are Khaines chosen disciples. They effectively work outside the temple, only having slight affiliations with it.

[wis]

Indeed but heres another one. With presented i mean why do these background stories they make up have to contradict lore. When they can write background stories that doesn't have to contradict lore. It seems lazy.

I would rather play a Warhammer MMO without all these contradictions.

[Kaeldor]

If you read the Malus Darkblade novels (from where they took the disciple idea) you can read there is a semi civil war going on between the "old" Temple of Khaine, and a new heretical faction (led by Malus Darkblade's brother Urial who basically is a disciple) who believe a certain person is the chosen of khaine to herald the apocalypse (I don't want to go into too much details for those wishing to read the novels). Obviously the Witch elves and executioners do not tolerate something like this, leading to a short civil war, wherein the Temple basically erradicated all these herretics.
Now in WAR, they have picked pieces of the darkblade novels (which are not really lore), pasted them into the warhammer lore, resulting into something that essentially is those heretics from Darkblade suddenly incorporated into the Temple, and not that alone but even a step above the Witch Elves in terms of favour.

The witch elves and executioners might have to tolerate disciples, after all they clearly seem to be in the favour of their good (being able to wield magic, the golden eyes etc.). There's certainly going on some serious plotting and in-fighting behind the scenes, but openly they might just have to accept the disciples.

What I have a bit of hard time to understand is the change of lore = generally bad attitude. It's not like the TT lore hasn't changed over time to introduce new units.

[Foofmonger]

Indeed but heres another one. With presented i mean why do these background stories they make up have to contradict lore. When they can write background stories that doesn't have to contradict lore. It seems lazy.

I would rather play a Warhammer MMO without all these contradictions.

Lore is constantly evolving. Warhammer Lore isn't the same now as it was 10 years ago, or 10 years before that. Get used to it man!

As far as the background stories always breaking lore, that isn't nessacarily the case. Breaking is far different then bending, or just adapting. Breaking the lore would be like, Khaines disciples kill all the witch elves and now run his temple.

[wis]

What i see here isn't Warhammer Lore evolving. Just a Game which borrows Warhammer Lore and then building its own Game lore.

So Lore is always evolving? Warcraft Lore has evolved aswell for the sake of a game. I want to see the upcoming dark elves codex.

[Foofmonger]

What i see here isn't Warhammer Lore evolving. Just a Game which borrows Warhammer Lore and then building its own Game lore.

So Lore is always evolving? Warcraft Lore has evolved aswell for the sake of a game. I want to see the upcoming dark elves codex.

You never know. In the next edition for Chaos, the Zealot may be a TT unit or in the codex.. etc..

Its not like Mythic is coming up with this stuff by themselves. GW is very involved in the process from what we know.

[Dukha]

It may not be "a step above". It could just be a different sort of favour.

In all honesty it IS a step above the Witches, thats the only logical interpretation of Khaine giving divine powers to the Disciples and not the Witches. It may well not mean that the Disciples outrank the Hags though. And keep in mind I'm basing what I'm saying on the career descriptions and those do not deal with the Hags, only the Witches. And it's my understanding that a Hag is what a Witch Elf can become (please correct me if needed, as always ;)). The Witches in the career description don't really give the impression to be good at organizing stuff I must admit...

In my eyes, the best way to do this is to not have the disciples anywhere in the temple structure. They don't run the temple, and they have no say what goes on in the temple. However, they are tolerated by the temple due to the fact that they are Khaines chosen disciples. They effectively work outside the temple, only having slight affiliations with it.


If the lore needs to be broken then go all the way, having Khaines chosen disciples only loosely affiliated with His own temple won't make for good storytelling. It would make more sense that their numbers are very small and that they fill a very specialised role within the temple. Nothing in the career description says that they need to fill a clerical and/or administrative position anyways. For example due to there being very few of them and their general mindset being just as fanatical as a Witch Elf would make them poor leaders and thus not threaten the Hags position. However I really think that the Witch Elfes, the original brides and chosen of Khaine could use some love at this moment in time. Because the Disciple IS without question higher than the Witches and placing them on atleast equal footing somehow wouldn't hurt methinks. Neither the lore nor the gameplay. I'm anyways very interested in seeing how the relationship between these two careers will evolve lorewise inside the game :mrgreen:

One thing got me curious...

As far as rewriting the temple hierarchy, thats easy. Due to the situation in the Age of Reckoning, Khaine has been preparing and prepping a new force within the elf army, his disciples.

I was under the impression that it is the Witch King Malekith that is preparing for war, not Khaine. Khaine couldn't care less about whatever plans Malekith has allthough the deity may well support him since Khaine is all about murdering people in large numbers. By the way, isn't Khaines ultimate agenda to whipe out every last breath of life in the entire world?
Anyhoo, if I asume correctly that it is in fact not by a divine will that the dark elfs are preparing for war but rather Malekith's then supplying his force with whatever kind of healer that he can find would be a very logical step. Sorry for slipping back to the "Khaine won't rezz people" argument but really, there should be a very big difference between the reasoning of a mortal mind and that of a God. Malekith want's to win a war so he needs his army to keep fighting. A God doesn't have to think like that and He/It(?) may very well prefer to see an entire army fielded in His name perish to the last man since it's the souls of the fallen that matters, not the outcome of the war.

[Foofmonger]

I was under the impression that it is the Witch King Malekith that is preparing for war, not Khaine. Khaine couldn't care less about whatever plans Malekith has allthough the deity may well support him since Khaine is all about murdering people in large numbers. By the way, isn't Khaines ultimate agenda to whipe out every last breath of life in the entire world?


We don't really know Khaines real agenda do we? Nor do we even know what he actually is. He could very well just be a different aspect of Khorne or something. People have proposed many theories, but they are just theories. For all we know, we don't know what Khaine is actually up to.


Anyhoo, if I asume correctly that it is in fact not by a divine will that the dark elfs are preparing for war but rather Malekith's then supplying his force with whatever kind of healer that he can find would be a very logical step.


For all we know, Khaine could be aware of whats happening in the AoR, and decided to exalt specific Disciples. It could be the opposite as well, but we just don't know.


Sorry for slipping back to the "Khaine won't rezz people" argument but really, there should be a very big difference between ther reasoning of a mortal mind and that of a God. Malekith want's to win a war so he needs his army to keep fighting. A God doesn't have to think like that and He/It(?) may very well prefer to see an entire army fielded in His name perish to the last man since it's the souls of the fallen that matters, not the outcome of the war.

This is true, but not nessacarily the case. Saying that a god doesn't think like that is true, but you can't then go and assume you know how a god would think. He very well could be aware of whats going on, and purposefully doing this. Or he could not. We don't know.

[Dukha]

This is true, but not nessacarily the case. Saying that a god doesn't think like that is true, but you can't then go and assume you know how a god would think. He very well could be aware of whats going on, and purposefully doing this. Or he could not. We don't know.

No, of course not. However I've seen a lot of people using arguments that seem to be based o Khaine reasoning way to much like a human would. Basically saying that of course he would allow his soldiers to be resurected because that way the war would more easily be won is arguing based on a God reasoning like a mortal would wich is probably a very human error to commit but as you say, we can't asume how a God would reason. I wouldnt however be the least bit suprised if Khaine couldnt give a rats about healing and ressurecting the troops fighting in his name but I'm damned sure that Malekith would. A lot. From a cold, calculating and very pragmativ view but he would most likely care so if the temple hadn't dredged up these Disciples and Malekith though his army needed healers he damned well would have procurred em from somewhere ;)

Edit: I'm pretty sure any God has a very good grasp on every little facet thats going on, what makes it complicated isnt knowing what the God knows and doesn't know. It's how these things are valued. A dark elf commander's reaction to having his entire army whiped out is easy to guess. He would consider it a giant step backwards for the war effort. The God could share this opinion. Or be very pleased at all the souls He could harvest. Or something completely different, who knows.

[Foofmonger]

No, of course not. However I've seen a lot of people using arguments that seem to be based o Khaine reasoning way to much like a human would. Basically saying that of course he would allow his soldiers to be resurected because that way the war would more easily be won is arguing based on a God reasoning like a mortal would wich is probably a very human error to commit but as you say, we can't asume how a God would reason. I wouldnt however be the least bit suprised if Khaine couldnt give a rats about healing and ressurecting the troops fighting in his name but I'm damned sure that Malekith would. A lot. From a cold, calculating and very pragmativ view but he would most likely care so if the temple hadn't dredged up these Disciples and Malekith though his army needed healers he damned well would have procurred em from somewhere ;)

The thing is that if Khaine doesn't care, that means he doesn't care (obviously). So he isn't against healing/resurrection because that would imply caring.

So the argument works both ways really.

[Anglakhel]

In all honesty it IS a step above the Witches, thats the only logical interpretation of Khaine giving divine powers to the Disciples and not the Witches. It may well not mean that the Disciples outrank the Hags though. And keep in mind I'm basing what I'm saying on the career descriptions and those do not deal with the Hags, only the Witches. And it's my understanding that a Hag is what a Witch Elf can become (please correct me if needed, as always ;)). The Witches in the career description don't really give the impression to be good at organizing stuff I must admit...


A few points I would like to make. It is not a logical conclusion that just because Khaine grants powers to Disciples that they are more important than the Witch Elves. For example, the Assassins learn secret rites of killing and are far more powerful individually than the Witch Elves. Yet Khaine still treasures the Witch Elves and they are his chosen Brides.

The Witch Elves make a pact with Khaine to fully devote themselves to his will. They incarnate one of his most violent and primal aspects. They drink drug-laced blood and enter a sacred ritual frenzy to serve his will. The surrender their conscious will to the will of Khaine, becoming tools in his hand to do with however he wishes. It shows a very special bond between the Witch Elves and Khaine. They worship him in a very specific way that apparently Khaine likes, a lot.

In return for their pact and surrendering their will to Khaine, he gives the Witch Elves eternal youth and beauty. As long as they serve him, they will never succumb to age and perish weak and diminished. He will keep them as his most beautiful and dangerous Brides until they die violently in battle or under sacrificial knives.

They have a specific role in his cult and worship, and they revere and worship him in a manner that most Druchii simply can't or won't choose to worship him. Not all Druchii have as much faith to place themselves entirely in Khaine's hands and enter battle almost naked while under the influence of drugs that send them into a sacred frenzy.

So the Witch Elves will always have a special place in Khaine's cult even though other individuals might wield killing secrets, magic or divine powers not typically associated with the Witch Elves.

It's simply not logical to conclude that because one unit has a different type of power than the Witch Elves that they are automatically more important to Khaine.

The background text does say that the Disciples are very important. The true chosen. That they know secrets that make them second only to Khaine at war etc (i'm not looking at the exact quote, just trying to get the basic idea). But keep in mind a couple things. It doesn't say that they've taken religious power from the Witch Elves. It doesn't say that Khaine doesn't like the Witch Elves.

It's also from the perspective of a particular individual, probably a Disciple, who might have his/her own motives for wanting to portray him/herself as a "true chosen of Khaine". It's also a very similar background to the existing Assassins in the lore, including the idea that they know secrets that make them more deadly than any other Druchii. But the Assassins existing has never undermined the Witch Elves. They exist in a special place but don't usurp the cult and religious importance of the Witch Elves. There is no reason why we should assume that the Disciples automatically take over all the Witch Elves power. The logical thing to do is look at all the evidence and work the Disciples into the cult. There will be adjustments and changes, but it isn't logical to insist that a few passages of flavor text about the Disciple automatically turns the Temple of Khaine on it's head.

[Slash]

Anglakel, although I may not agree with what you are saying, I will start off with acknowledging how well you put things. I do agree with all the things you have mentioned about the Witch Elves. However, I disagree to whether a change in the temple system isn't logical, per say.

The Disciples are given golden eyes (meaning they are favored by Khaine), the are noted as second only to Khaine and are granted special gifts (I will agree their powers do not make them more important on their own). While they could just implement the Disciples as a separate entity within the temple (as I would hope for) , it is logical to think that they may hold a higher position than the Witch Elves in the Temple.

.... Or we could solve all of this if we just killed them all :mrgreen:

[Dukha]

The thing is that if Khaine doesn't care, that means he doesn't care (obviously). So he isn't against healing/resurrection because that would imply caring.

So the argument works both ways really.

Yep, agreed. Wich is the problem with Gods I suppose, it's sometimes hard to know what they DO care about. Having said that I think I atleast have exhausted this particular part of the discussion. Then again my knowledge of Khaine isn't that great really ;)

A few points I would like to make.
I read trough em all, just didnt want to quote all of the text as all of it was relevant. I am looking at it from a very basic view point at the moment, that being the career descriptions and those don't really highlight the points you bring up Anglakhel. At least thats my view. Also I'm wondering what someone who is completely new to the setting will think when reading the descriptions. But in all honesty someone like that won't really care either way and hopefully he will think both careers are equally cool :)

The bond you descripe are part of the things wich really preserve the uniqueness of the Witches along with their superiority and it is those things that I was refering to when I said I wanted some love to the Witches at this moment in time. I will have to rephrase that however, what I really mean is that once we are playing WAR those points will be highlighted trough for example tome unlocks and quests.

[Anglakhel]

Slash, Dukha and others:

I'm not trying to say that the Disciples don't change things around. They are obviously a new type of worshipper and servant of Khaine that has not be detailed in the official lore in the past. They are depicted as having divine powers granted from Khaine and being incredibly important. Of course this will change some things about the Temple of Khaine.

My point though is it doesn't logically follow that suddenly the Witch Elves are not important. People are placing their own value on the divine powers we're told the Disciples have and concluding that those powers are more important to Khaine than what the Witch Elves do. I don't think that logically follows.

Here's a little bit I started working on about how I personally think the Temple of Khaine might work with the Witch Elves and the Disciples. This is my interpretation of the lore and some of the background myths, rites and rituals we know about Khaine's worship. It's not official lore, but it's an example that shows how the lore can be interpretted to make it work together rather than automatically assuming that the Disciples must mean the lore is ruined, shattered, or otherwise broken. I don't feel like revising the idea yet, so here's my post from another forum:

I've been thinking about the Disciple Career a lot recently and I think that Mythic has really done a fantastic job.

Introducing the Disciple Career does not make the Brides of Khaine less important to the Temple of Khaine. The Brides are still the Priestesses. They are still married to Khaine and his alone. They are still granted eternal youth and beauty by renewing their pact with Khaine.

The Hag Queens still rule the great Temples. The big ceremonies and rituals are still conducted by the Witches and Hags.

In my opinion, the Disciples are actually the chosen children of Khaine and his Brides. The Maibd are married to Khaine and he does not share them with anyone. Death Night is the greatest celebration of the Temple of Khaine when the Maibd gather sacrifices amongst the Druchii city to renew their pact with Khaine. The Cauldrons renew the sacred marriage between the Hag and Khaine. He restores their youth and beauty and power in exchange for their absolute devotion.

He also gives them children. Any infants stolen by the Witch Elves on Death Night are thrown into the Cauldrons as a sacrifice to Khaine. Sometimes though Khaine blesses a child and marks it as his own. These children are taken and taught the secret rites of the Lord of Murder.

They aren't taking control of the Temple. They are like the blessed children of the maiden Witch Elves and Khaine himself. They represent that not only can Khaine give his Brides eternal youth and beauty if he chooses, but he can even give them children to raise.

It's like the Cauldron becomes a surrogate womb to give birth to Khaine's children in the physical world. They are blessed because they are Khaine's children and the product of his sacred marriage with his Brides, but this doesn't mean that Khaine ceases to care about his Brides.

Anyway, that's sort of my mystical/symbolic take on Death Night and the Brides and Disciples. I think it can all work out and make the Temple of Khaine richer and more interesting. It's a change, but it doesn't destroy the old lore, it just complicates it more.

[wis]

A few points I would like to make. It is not a logical conclusion that just because Khaine grants powers to Disciples that they are more important than the Witch Elves. For example, the Assassins learn secret rites of killing and are far more powerful individually than the Witch Elves. Yet Khaine still treasures the Witch Elves and they are his chosen Brides.

The Witch Elves make a pact with Khaine to fully devote themselves to his will. They incarnate one of his most violent and primal aspects. They drink drug-laced blood and enter a sacred ritual frenzy to serve his will. The surrender their conscious will to the will of Khaine, becoming tools in his hand to do with however he wishes. It shows a very special bond between the Witch Elves and Khaine. They worship him in a very specific way that apparently Khaine likes, a lot.

In return for their pact and surrendering their will to Khaine, he gives the Witch Elves eternal youth and beauty. As long as they serve him, they will never succumb to age and perish weak and diminished. He will keep them as his most beautiful and dangerous Brides until they die violently in battle or under sacrificial knives.

They have a specific role in his cult and worship, and they revere and worship him in a manner that most Druchii simply can't or won't choose to worship him. Not all Druchii have as much faith to place themselves entirely in Khaine's hands and enter battle almost naked while under the influence of drugs that send them into a sacred frenzy.

So the Witch Elves will always have a special place in Khaine's cult even though other individuals might wield killing secrets, magic or divine powers not typically associated with the Witch Elves.

It's simply not logical to conclude that because one unit has a different type of power than the Witch Elves that they are automatically more important to Khaine.

The background text does say that the Disciples are very important. The true chosen. That they know secrets that make them second only to Khaine at war etc (i'm not looking at the exact quote, just trying to get the basic idea). But keep in mind a couple things. It doesn't say that they've taken religious power from the Witch Elves. It doesn't say that Khaine doesn't like the Witch Elves.

It's also from the perspective of a particular individual, probably a Disciple, who might have his/her own motives for wanting to portray him/herself as a "true chosen of Khaine". It's also a very similar background to the existing Assassins in the lore, including the idea that they know secrets that make them more deadly than any other Druchii. But the Assassins existing has never undermined the Witch Elves. They exist in a special place but don't usurp the cult and religious importance of the Witch Elves. There is no reason why we should assume that the Disciples automatically take over all the Witch Elves power. The logical thing to do is look at all the evidence and work the Disciples into the cult. There will be adjustments and changes, but it isn't logical to insist that a few passages of flavor text about the Disciple automatically turns the Temple of Khaine on it's head.


Harvest of Souls and Death Night you haven't mentioned them. Males chosen in the cauldron becomes assasins and females become witch elves.

The whole thing with the aspects is it official lore? is it something that that GW has published?.

[Anglakhel]

Harvest of Souls and Death Night you haven't mentioned them. Males chosen in the cauldron becomes assasins and females become witch elves.

The whole thing with the aspects is it official lore? is it something that that GW has published?.

Hey Wiz,

I have talked about Death Night in great detail in the past. You can find a lot of interesting discussing in this thread:

Death Night and the Cauldron (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22265)

The males becoming Assassins and the females becoming Witch Elves represents the take on the lore in the 6th Edition, I believe. In the 4th/5th Edition they don't really deal with the babies surviving in the Cauldron as much but talk about Death Night being used to kidnap children that the Temple will train as Assassins. Witch Elves are selected for their beauty and cruelty, not because they survive the Cauldron. I'm not looking in my army books at the moment though, so I could be confusing it a bit.

Khaine's many aspects are official. He's regularly described as having 1000 Aspects and 17 secret names. The manticore is an aspect of Khaine, as are the Harpies, the Executioners revere him in the aspect of the Executioner, he's invoked as the Iron Panther in other places. There is very little detail about most of these. They get brief evocative mentions without real details about what a given aspect may entail, although at www.druchii.net they've done some more detailed writeups about various aspects of Khaine over the years. These are not official lore though.

[Slash]

My point though is it doesn't logically follow that suddenly the Witch Elves are not important.

Agreed, even if Disciples > Witch Elves in the Temple structure (:-?). Witch Elves will still have a place. However, I would detest this to the extreme.

I've been thinking about the Disciple Career a lot recently and I think that Mythic has really done a fantastic job.

Introducing the Disciple Career does not make the Brides of Khaine less important to the Temple of Khaine. The Brides are still the Priestesses. They are still married to Khaine and his alone. They are still granted eternal youth and beauty by renewing their pact with Khaine.

The Hag Queens still rule the great Temples. The big ceremonies and rituals are still conducted by the Witches and Hags.

In my opinion, the Disciples are actually the chosen children of Khaine and his Brides. The Maibd are married to Khaine and he does not share them with anyone. Death Night is the greatest celebration of the Temple of Khaine when the Maibd gather sacrifices amongst the Druchii city to renew their pact with Khaine. The Cauldrons renew the sacred marriage between the Hag and Khaine. He restores their youth and beauty and power in exchange for their absolute devotion.

He also gives them children. Any infants stolen by the Witch Elves on Death Night are thrown into the Cauldrons as a sacrifice to Khaine. Sometimes though Khaine blesses a child and marks it as his own. These children are taken and taught the secret rites of the Lord of Murder.

They aren't taking control of the Temple. They are like the blessed children of the maiden Witch Elves and Khaine himself. They represent that not only can Khaine give his Brides eternal youth and beauty if he chooses, but he can even give them children to raise.

It's like the Cauldron becomes a surrogate womb to give birth to Khaine's children in the physical world. They are blessed because they are Khaine's children and the product of his sacred marriage with his Brides, but this doesn't mean that Khaine ceases to care about his Brides. Hmmm, that is an interesting Idea (I didn't catch where you posted that before). One which could be tweaked to fit in nicely. Any idea to stop disciples outranking Witch Elves is good though :-D

I would also like to note here that I still HATE Disciples. However, I do realise that my hatred for what Mythic have done will not change things (this isn't to say I cannot state and argue my opinion, just as anybody else can). Having said all this I am not posting anymore about my loathing over the Disciples. I am instead debating the best and least lore shattering way to implement them.

[Smarticus]

Hmm, thanks for the info about Dark Elf worship.

It was stated by an early poster that the Dark elves could have had a healer that didn't use divine magic or wasn't part of the temple (like the HE Archmage), which is true. However, they probably didn't want to copy the Archamge, and quite frankly I think the whole idea behind the Disciple is just cool. Rgardless of how it may break the lore, you have to admit the background suits the game mechanic perfectly--you've got an evil priest who drains others' spirits ("Your...soul...is...mine!").

The way I see it, Witch Elves are the Nuns from Hell. They're a super special aesthetic order within Khaine's temple, apart from the rank and file priests and priestesses, with their own agenda. Whatever their relative positions in the heirarchy, they probably look down on the Disciples, who might have families of their own and only dedicate most of their time to worship (as opposed to all their time).

I know it's a change, but I happen to think it's cool, because it adds a complexity and a dimension to DE society that wasn't there before. Certainly, Witch Elves aren't happy to have someone (especially males) encroach in on their book clubs and knitting circles, but if a Disciple gets too annying they will find a poisoned blade in their back.

Just my thoughts--again, I'm looking at this strictly from a gameplay perspective.

[Lucrece]

A few points I would like to make. It is not a logical conclusion that just because Khaine grants powers to Disciples that they are more important than the Witch Elves. For example, the Assassins learn secret rites of killing and are far more powerful individually than the Witch Elves. Yet Khaine still treasures the Witch Elves and they are his chosen Brides.

The Witch Elves make a pact with Khaine to fully devote themselves to his will. They incarnate one of his most violent and primal aspects. They drink drug-laced blood and enter a sacred ritual frenzy to serve his will. The surrender their conscious will to the will of Khaine, becoming tools in his hand to do with however he wishes. It shows a very special bond between the Witch Elves and Khaine. They worship him in a very specific way that apparently Khaine likes, a lot.

In return for their pact and surrendering their will to Khaine, he gives the Witch Elves eternal youth and beauty. As long as they serve him, they will never succumb to age and perish weak and diminished. He will keep them as his most beautiful and dangerous Brides until they die violently in battle or under sacrificial knives.

They have a specific role in his cult and worship, and they revere and worship him in a manner that most Druchii simply can't or won't choose to worship him. Not all Druchii have as much faith to place themselves entirely in Khaine's hands and enter battle almost naked while under the influence of drugs that send them into a sacred frenzy.

So the Witch Elves will always have a special place in Khaine's cult even though other individuals might wield killing secrets, magic or divine powers not typically associated with the Witch Elves.

It's simply not logical to conclude that because one unit has a different type of power than the Witch Elves that they are automatically more important to Khaine.

The background text does say that the Disciples are very important. The true chosen. That they know secrets that make them second only to Khaine at war etc (i'm not looking at the exact quote, just trying to get the basic idea). But keep in mind a couple things. It doesn't say that they've taken religious power from the Witch Elves. It doesn't say that Khaine doesn't like the Witch Elves.

It's also from the perspective of a particular individual, probably a Disciple, who might have his/her own motives for wanting to portray him/herself as a "true chosen of Khaine". It's also a very similar background to the existing Assassins in the lore, including the idea that they know secrets that make them more deadly than any other Druchii. But the Assassins existing has never undermined the Witch Elves. They exist in a special place but don't usurp the cult and religious importance of the Witch Elves. There is no reason why we should assume that the Disciples automatically take over all the Witch Elves power. The logical thing to do is look at all the evidence and work the Disciples into the cult. There will be adjustments and changes, but it isn't logical to insist that a few passages of flavor text about the Disciple automatically turns the Temple of Khaine on it's head.

Well, I'm nitpicking, but in terms of individual power, Crone Hellebron and Morathi surpass that of any assassin. However, if you're going by TT stats, then yeah, I get your point ;p.

[Anglakhel]

Well, I'm nitpicking, but in terms of individual power, Crone Hellebron and Morathi surpass that of any assassin. However, if you're going by TT stats, then yeah, I get your point ;p.

I would definitely say that the Hags and the Hag Queens should be of another level of power entirely. I'm more equating the Witch Elves and Disciples directly since they will both be represented as units in WAR.

The Assassin example was meant to illustrate that there is already a unit in the existing TT game that far exceeds an individual Witch Elf in power and yet the Witch Elves are still the center of Khaine's Temple.

[mongoose]

Slash, Dukha and others:

I'm not trying to say that the Disciples don't change things around. They are obviously a new type of worshipper and servant of Khaine that has not be detailed in the official lore in the past. They are depicted as having divine powers granted from Khaine and being incredibly important. Of course this will change some things about the Temple of Khaine.

My point though is it doesn't logically follow that suddenly the Witch Elves are not important. People are placing their own value on the divine powers we're told the Disciples have and concluding that those powers are more important to Khaine than what the Witch Elves do. I don't think that logically follows.

.......your vision of how the temple works......


Noone said the Witch Elves wouldnt still have a position of importance in the temple (including myself) but there is such a thing as less important. The Disciple description make is very clear who the "true" chosen are which demotes the former chosen, the Witch Elves, down a notch or three. And since even the Hags fit into that category not even they would outrank a Disciple. You can try to jam them into the current hierarchy all you like but its never going to work if we accept the description they gave us at face value (with no trying to add in personal interpretations)


The only explanation I might be willing to entertain (this is of course completely discounting current lore and the turning of Khaine into a gentler and more benevolent god) would be......

The Disciples ARE the true chosen and as such are leaps and bounds above even the Hags in rank and authority. They are so distant from the Witch Elves in fact that they cant be troubled to carry out all of the more mundane rituals and rites so they allow the Witch Elves to continue on in this capacity.

Dont be fooled by this however because the Disciples wield absolute authority over the Cult only answering to Malekith himself (but even this is suspect and the Disciples merely allow it....for now :twisted: ). What they say is law within the temple walls and even the Hags shy away from these avatars of the bloody handed god for they have powers not even the Hags dare to think about possessing.

This allows the Hags to still serve as the figureheads of the temple and the Witch Elves to continue presiding over ceremonies but the true power and authority lies within the Disciples. You can consider them a separate sect above the Witch Elves/Hags but somewhat removed from the mundane goings on within the temple.

(Ive also dropped in the poison of a possible challenging of Malekiths authority :rolleyes:)


Of course this is all a fanciful dream because I still dont buy for a SECOND that Khaine would trade a soul for a soul and grant his powers to be used to heal. This line of thinking runs contrary to all that Khaine stands for and demeans the Durchii way of life.


About the cauldrons and babies thing...........I always got the impression from the book that on death night babies are stolen (among other acts of murder and cruelty). If they are female they are raised to be Witch Elves and if they are male they get dropped into the cauldron. If they live they become Assassins.

The book never states that the female babies are put through the same cauldron 'trial'.

[Misanthrope Prime]

I don't understand why you feel the Disciples have to be above the witch elves to be in a separate cult? I view Disciples, Witch Elves, Assassins and Executioners all on the same level, in different areas making the bulk of their specific aspect of Khaine?. Why is that hard to grasp?

[mongoose]

I don't understand why you feel the Disciples have to be above the witch elves to be in a separate cult? I view Disciples, Witch Elves, Assassins and Executioners all on the same level, in different areas making the bulk of their specific aspect of Khaine?. Why is that hard to grasp?

Oh I grasp that you and some others want to see it this way but I happen to disagree with it based on the Disciple description. When they are called the "TRUE chosen" and "second only to Khaine himself", that sends the clear impression they kowtow to noone except the god himself.

[Slash]

I don't understand why you feel the Disciples have to be above the witch elves to be in a separate cult? I view Disciples, Witch Elves, Assassins and Executioners all on the same level, in different areas making the bulk of their specific aspect of Khaine?. Why is that hard to grasp?

I think Mongoose means if you place the Disciples WAY above the Witch Elves, they would consider the role and activities of a Witch Elf trivial, thusly it would not effect the operations of the Temple so much. I understand this idea, but TBH I don't like it too much :-?. I'm trying, but hearing Disciples, outranking and Witch Elves in one sentence makes my stomach turn.

[Misanthrope Prime]

I think Mongoose means if you place the Disciples WAY above the Witch Elves, they would consider the role and activities of a Witch Elf trivial, thusly it would not effect the operations of the Temple so much. I understand this idea, but TBH I don't like it too much :-?. I'm trying, but hearing Disciples, outranking and Witch Elves in one sentence makes my stomach turn.
But they DON'T. You're taking one BIASED bit of FLAVOR TEXT as indication on the structure of the Temple of Khaine and boycotting a class whose lore you know nothing about.

[Anglakhel]

Frankly Mongoose, I'm not really interested in trying to have a discussion with you. You're completely set on the addition of Disciples being a problem and a bad thing. I'm not interested. I disagree with most of your fundamental assertions about the nature of Khaine and Khaine's cult. We've been around and around in the past. I think I've supported my arguments with solid reasoning and references to the existing lore and you've continued with the same mantras.

The Disciples are in the official lore for WAR. As fans of the lore we can find ways to combine them with the existing lore from the TT and other sources or we can endlessly complain that the Disciple ruin the lore. You're actively creating an interpretation of the lore to support your case that they disrupt your vision of the lore. You're making assumptions about what the lore is and how Khaine has to operate and what is and isn't possible for him.

I disagree with you and have supplied plenty of evidence to support my disagreements with you. Mythic and GW have clearly disagreed with you. Disciples exist in WAR. Now, I'm more interested in combining the lore about the Disciples with the lore existing about the Witch Elves, Hags and the Temple of Khaine. You're welcome to your own opinion. You can be wounded and convince yourself that Disciples ruin WAR. But how about you let other people enjoy the vision of the game being presented to us in WAR by Mythic.

[mongoose]

I think Mongoose means if you place the Disciples WAY above the Witch Elves, they would consider the role and activities of a Witch Elf trivial, thusly it would not effect the operations of the Temple so much. I understand this idea, but TBH I don't like it too much :-?. I'm trying, but hearing Disciples, outranking and Witch Elves in one sentence makes my stomach turn.

Well I dont like it much either but Im trying to work within the Disciple description that was given to us and not trying to twist and reinterpret it.

I would prefer the Witch Elves remained singular in authority but this aint gonna happen so we might as well go to the extremes like Mythic appears to be doing. :rolleyes:

[Slash]

But they DON'T. You're taking one BIASED bit of FLAVOR TEXT as indication on the structure of the Temple of Khaine and boycotting a class whose lore you know nothing about.

I’ve accepted there will be Disciples in WAR I am not debating that. I do, however, loath the Idea of Disciples outranking Witch Elves. I may be taking it from a single biased source, but I don’t see any other sources concerning Disciples to discus the issue. If you could find one I would greatly appreciate it.

EDIT: Sorry for using a silly font :S

[Misanthrope Prime]

Does a naval commander outrank a battlefield commander (for lack of more precise military terminology)? No, they're separate divisions of a martial force. Similarly, a Witch Elf and a Disciple do not outrank eachother as they are in different aspects of Khaine's temple.

[mongoose]

Frankly Mongoose, I'm not really interested in trying to have a discussion with you. You're completely set on the addition of Disciples being a problem and a bad thing. I'm not interested. I disagree with most of your fundamental assertions about the nature of Khaine and Khaine's cult. We've been around and around in the past. I think I've supported my arguments with solid reasoning and references to the existing lore and you've continued with the same mantras.

The Disciples are in the official lore for WAR. As fans of the lore we can find ways to combine them with the existing lore from the TT and other sources or we can endlessly complain that the Disciple ruin the lore. You're actively creating an interpretation of the lore to support your case that they disrupt your vision of the lore. You're making assumptions about what the lore is and how Khaine has to operate and what is and isn't possible for him.

I disagree with you and have supplied plenty of evidence to support my disagreements with you. Mythic and GW have clearly disagreed with you. Disciples exist in WAR. Now, I'm more interested in combining the lore about the Disciples with the lore existing about the Witch Elves, Hags and the Temple of Khaine. You're welcome to your own opinion. You can be wounded and convince yourself that Disciples ruin WAR. But how about you let other people enjoy the vision of the game being presented to us in WAR by Mythic.

Did you even read what I wrote? Because it appears as if you just saw that I posted and assumed it was all negativity, which it wasnt. I included my own version of how the Disciple COULD work with established lore but I guess we should just completely ignore that part :rolleyes:

I also posted an actual genuine off the topic question about Witch Elf babies and the cauldron that you also glossed over. More proof that you simply ignored everything I wrote to continue your crusade about your opinion being the only correct way of thinking.

At least I give do you the courtesy of reading and responding to your posts in their entirety instead of just dismissing them out of hand. :-?

[Slash]

Does a naval commander outrank a battlefield commander (for lack of more precise military terminology)? No, they're separate divisions of a martial force. Similarly, a Witch Elf and a Disciple do not outrank eachother as they are in different aspects of Khaine's temple.

“Few are the select chosen that survive the reveries of the Death Night. Fewer still are those who leave the Cauldron with eyes of molten brass, burning with the hatred of our Dark god. These true chosen are taken into the cult and trained in the most secret of rites, emerging as masters of death second to only Khaine himself.”

Sounds to me less like navel commander and battlefield commander and more like master and servant. I don't see how you could interpret that any differently. It might end being as you said. However based on the information we have it is unlikely.

[Misanthrope Prime]

“Few are the select chosen that survive the reveries of the Death Night. Fewer still are those who leave the Cauldron with eyes of molten brass, burning with the hatred of our Dark god. These true chosen are taken into the cult and trained in the most secret of rites, emerging as masters of death second to only Khaine himself.”

Sounds to me less like navel commander and battlefield commander and more like master and servant. I don't see how you could interpret that any differently. It might end being as you said. However based on the information we have it is unlikely.

Their mastery of death as an abstract concept, the forces of living and not living, that is their domain. The masters of getting drugged up and killing, killing, not death, are still the witch elves. It could be semantics, but this is lore and it can be interpreted literally until something else comes up.

[Slash]

And Witch Elves will always be the drug f@!#ed brides of Khaine, masters of killing. I agree with you Disciples will not change this. However, by the looks of things they will change the authority and importance of Witch Elves within the Temple.

[mongoose]

Their mastery of death as an abstract concept, the forces of living and not living, that is their domain. The masters of getting drugged up and killing, killing, not death, are still the witch elves. It could be semantics, but this is lore and it can be interpreted literally until something else comes up.

Yes it can be interpreted literally which is what we are doing. We arent trying to call "mastery of death" an abstract concept (an interpretation) but are taking it and the rest of the description at face value.

[Dukha]

I don't understand why you feel the Disciples have to be above the witch elves to be in a separate cult? I view Disciples, Witch Elves, Assassins and Executioners all on the same level, in different areas making the bulk of their specific aspect of Khaine?. Why is that hard to grasp?
This would be my preference as well, and at least as far as Witches and Disciples goes it would make some sort of sense seeing as they are both playable careers. However Mythics definitions of lore are so far slightly to shallow to draw any further conclusions from. Some additions would be great to give a hint on how Mythic are viewing the social structure and the relationship between the Witches and the Disciples. But since we don't have that now I went back once more to what we do have, namely the career descriptions. I'll do my best to compare them without any preconcieved notions and see where I end up.
Both are divided in 2 parts that pertain to the lore of the careers, one is a quote from some representative so it should be taken with a grain of salt and the other is more of a generic description. For Witches we have:
"Do not desire the touch of a Maibd, a bride of Khaine, for her life is wholly given to the Lord of Murder, and he is a jealous god, unwilling to share his chosen ones.”
- Ruerl Blackhand, Lord of Har Ganeth
This doesn't say much other than that the Witch elf is comitted in all things to the service of Khaine. She is refered to as chosen of Khaine. The generic description is:
Witch Elves are the maiden-elves who are wedded to Khaine, the Lord of Murder, in midnight rites of blood sacrifice and magic. The decadent fragile looks of the maidens of Ulthuan are nothing compared to the intoxicating beauty of the Witch Elves. Witch Elves go to war alongside the Dark Elf armies, eager to prove themselves in the eyes of their god. For them the battlefield is just another temple of Khaine, and the screams of the dying are praises sung in honor of the bloody-handed god.

The Witch Elf sounds like a holy warrior fighting to prove herself to a god she has devoted her life to, nothing more and nothing less. Her origin contains some special ritual wedding taking place at night. Magic and sacrifices of blood are components. This may be Death Night but it is not specified.
Now, the Disciple has a colorful statement as well.
"Few are the select chosen that survive the reveries of the Death Night. Fewer still are those who leave the Cauldron with eyes of molten brass, burning with the hatred of our Dark god. These true chosen are taken into the cult and trained in the most secret of rites, emerging as masters of death second to only Khaine himself.”
- Haridar of Har Ganeth
This is a slightly more lenghty description than the witch. It suggests that the Disciple are the result of Death Night and that they are not only among the few that survive the cauldron but also among the even rarer who are marked with the yellow eyes. In other words this claims that the Disciple is a very rare individual. They are further refered to as "true chosen" and considering whats said about their origin then that may well be the case. It is a statement that is so far uncontested. They are further trained in what Haridar considers the most secret rituals within the cult of Khaine and they end up being only second to Khaine when knowledge and skills of death is concerned. Overall this is a more fanciful description wich may well be attributed to Haridar's ego or something similar. As for the generic description it says:
The chosen dark priests of the bloody handed god, The Disciples of Khaine, can be found on the frontline of any Druchii assault. Using wicked ritual blades, a Disciple harvests the essence of their enemy and offers it to Khaine in exchange for fell blessings and dark powers. These dark gifts allow the Disciple to tend to the needs of the Dark Elf host, mending bones, suppressing pain, and even raising critically injured warriors to fight again. The Disciple of Khaine is the shepherd of war, ensuring the bloody slaughter can continue in the name of their dark god.
This refers to them as priests and they are given the task of keeping a warhost going in times of war, a task that is performed from the frontlines. Also note that the y get another mention of being chosen. They use melee weapons to "harvest the essence" from opponents and using this as currency to gain gifts from Khaine that allows them to, in different ways, remedy wounds and aleviating pain. It is not stated that they can bring someone back from the dead though. It is not specified if the sacrifice to Khaine allows them to heal 1 for 1 (give half a soul and you take away the pain from a severe limb, give the eintire sould and the limb will grow back) or if the Disciple is given these gifts because he IS a disciple but is expected to keep paying for them wether they are used or not. They are not, in this brief text given any other job.

So, to sum up.
The Witch Elf is a chosen of Khaine.
The Disciple is a chosen of Khaine. The Disciple is also physically marked wich seem to be related.
The Witch Elf's origin consists of rituals involving nightime and blood sacrifices (Death Night?)
The Disciple's origin consists of survinging Death Night and being physically marked by what we can asume is Khaine.
The Witch Elf is not described as recieving any special teachings. It is however logical to asume that she do recieve special teachings.
The Disciple recieves special teachings. Atleast some sources will claim these teachings make the Disciple second only to Khaine. This may well be exaggeration though.
The Witch Elfs are not decsribed as priestesses, only that they prove themself to Khaine trough battle.
The Disciples are refered to as priests but no further detail is given.
The Witch Elfs gain no special powers from Khaine.
The Disciples gain the power to heal from Khaine.
There are a hint that within Druchii society a rift exists between the Disciples and the Witches. The "true chosen" part. That implies there are not so true chosen. Once again, it may be something solely atributed to Haridar, if it's there at all.

Conclusion: Right now and seeing as Mythic ARE adapting the lore rather than following it strictly this is what we know. I may have missed something but to me it's all to easy to see the Disciple as being superiour. However there are to many blanks to say that for certain.
For example what are the Disciples relation to Hellebron and Morathi? In what way can Disciples be called priests? What implication does the yellow eyes really stand for? And so on and so forth. I am sure that many many more questions can be asked and within the established lore be correctly answered but that will not necceserily help this discussion as it may not be in line with Mythics vision or how to properly adapt the Disciple. So what this is actually is a giant block of text wich is saying "There are to many things we don't know yet!"
One thing that I felt is that the Withches backstory and concept art seemed half finished in comparison to the Disciple wich may be due to them being harder to implement since they have so much lore behind them.

Anyways, to those that suffered trough it thanks for reading ;)

[Anglakhel]

Okay,

I went over my Army Books again to make sure I was getting the lore details correct regarding the Cauldron, Death Night, and the Assassins.

The Cauldron and Assassins

In the 4th/5th Edition there is no mention of throwing infants into the Cauldrons. During Death Night, Witch Elves specifically kidnap young male Druchii that are raised by the Temple to be Assassins, but the Cauldron story had not yet been added to the lore.

4th/5th Ed. pg. 40
During the insane revelries of Death Night the Witch Elves steal away young male children who they raise in the temples of Khaine. As they grow they learn the dark secrets of Khaine: the deadly martial arts, the power of poisons, how to move without sound and how to slip through the night unseen. They are murderers supreme, the most deadly agents of the Witch King.

4th/5th Ed. pg. 36
The Witch Elves steal away some male children to raise in the temples of Khaine to be Assassins, and these are probably the most deadly and evil Dark Elves of all, the masters of subtle and murderous magics.

What is interesting to me here is that the Assassins are chosen by the Witch Elves to worship Khaine and be trained his secret arts. They are considered the most deadly of Dark Elf warriors. They are even described as "masters of subtle and murderous magics." Yet, the Witch Elves are still the chosen brides of Khaine and still the religious figureheads of the Temple of Khaine. Khaine has gifted them better killing secrets and magics than the Witch Elves and yet the Witch Elves are still his chosen and honored brides.

In the 6th Edition we see the addition of the Cauldron story. In this version, any children that the Witch Elves take on Death Night are cast into the Cauldron. Those that survive are chosen by Khaine and are trained in the temples of Khaine to become Assassins. Interestingly, there is no mention of a gender requirement for the Assassins.

6th Ed. pg. 11
During the revelries of the Death Night, the Witch Elves roam the streets of our cities, and all who cross their path are offerings to Khaine. Amongst those taken are young babes, who are offered up to the Lord of Murder in the Cauldron of Blood. Most perish, but those chosen by Khaine emerge unharmed, and are then initiated in the dark secrets of Khaine. They are raised to be Dark Elf Assassins, the masters of death and the bringers of oblivion.

In both versions, the Assassins wield greater powers in Khaine's name than the individual Witch Elves, yet the importance of the Witch Elves as Khaine's chosen brides is not diminished. Just because Khaine grants greater power to the chosen Assassins does not make them more important to the cult of grant them more religious authority.

Incidentally, neither of these editions of the Army Book make any mention of the Witch Elves have been chosen in the Cauldron (I do think it has been suggested in other lore resources which I check on. It may be the unofficial lore expansions for the RP game that make mention of it. I'm curious and will research it further). It is suggested, rather, that they are chosen as "maiden-Elves" and wedded to Khaine. It is likely that they prove themselves to the Temple as they approach a marrying age and only the most beautiful and cruel maiden-Elves are initiated into the cult and married to Khaine.


The Disciple

The supplied lore for the Disciple expands on this version of the Cauldron story.

First we have the quote from Haridar of Har Ganeth:

"Few are the select chosen that survive the reveries of the Death Night. Fewer still are those who leave the Cauldron with eyes of molten brass, burning with the hatred of our Dark god. These true chosen are taken into the cult and trained in the most secret of rites, emerging as masters of death second to only Khaine himself."

This sounds quite close to the 6th Edition story of how the Assassins are chosen and trained by the Temple. The Assassins are described as greater warriors than all other Druchii, the Disciples as "master of death second only to Khaine himself." It does not say that they strip the Witch Elves of religious authority. It does not say that they outrank the Witch Elves.

It's flavor text, from the perspective of a particular individual, likely a Disciple, that describes their power and connection to Khaine. It is really not that different than the general story of the Assassins apart from the "eyes of molten brass." It seems very much like a way to include some of the lore surrounding the Assassins in WAR but creating a more mystical version of the Assassins in the form of the Disciples. The Assassins are described as wielding "powers unrivalled by mere mortals" and it is stated that there "are no greater warriors amongst all Elvenkind than the Adepts of Khaine."

If the Assassins can exist and operate without stripping the Witch Elves of authority, why is it so difficult that the Disciples can be "true chosen" of Khaine without stripping the Witch Elves of their place in Khaine's cult? Why can't they be chosen of Khaine through the Cauldron and Death Night while the Witch Elves are his chosen brides, the Maibd?

What I object to in some of the arguments going around is the notion that the only logical conclusion is that the Disciples must usurp the power of the Witch Elves. I think that is far from the only logical conclusion. Certainly you can argue that that is the case by reading the text as a statement of the Disciple ruling all the Temple, but it isn't in the text itself. It is an interpretation that is purposefullly destructive of the existing lore.

I presented with my Cauldron story and the Disciples as the sacred children of the Maibd and Khaine another interpretation that keeps all the importance and rarity of the "true chosen" of Khaine while not diminishing the existing cult of Khaine. It does not require that we dismiss or think less of the the Witch Elves. They are still, like we have always been told, the chosen Brides of Khaine and the leaders of the Temple of Khaine.

I think we should focus on finding interpretations that preserve the important parts of the lore we've been given in the past with the new lore being created and implemented by Mythic for WAR. I think I've demonstrated that it is possible to do so and that the destructive interpretation of the Disciple background detail is not a very plausible interpretation, much less the only logical conclusion based upon the available evidence.

[Sorceress]

As I have said elsewhere I think making them another independent sect of Khaine Worshipers would've sidestepped the obviously messy issues of "who's in charge now?"

As for Assassins, while they are individually powerful and skillful they don't obvious wield their god's divine power nor does their role overlap with that of the Witch Elves. I can't say that would be the case for the Disciples, so I hope they are integrated into the lore better than we've seen thus far.

[Ganymed]

“Few are the select chosen that survive the reveries of the Death Night. Fewer still are those who leave the Cauldron with eyes of molten brass, burning with the hatred of our Dark god. These true chosen are taken into the cult and trained in the most secret of rites, emerging as masters of death second to only Khaine himself.”


u have to highlight a bit more from the last sentence to see how it really is meant imo. that "second to only khaine himself" is taken out of context if u ask me. when I first read that description, l read it like

These true chosen are taken into the cult and trained in the most secret of rites, emerging as masters of death second to only Khaine himself.”

Khaine himself is the ultimate master of death, but second to him there are already the disciples. this "second to Khaine" refers not to a hierarchy in the temple, but to the fact that they are able to manipulate death etc which is just surpassed by khaine himself in druchii society. after all, disciples will be able to heal, resurrect, which if u convert it into pure lore-explanations are the equivalents of "mending bones, suppressing pain, and even raising critically injured warriors to fight again."

ofc a disciple, in matters like that, is 2. to Khaine only, after all witch elves dont have as much power over death as disciples have. yet that doesnt say anything about the hierarchy of the temple; for all we know, disciples could be so strongly involved in perfectioning their skills with manipulating death, which maybe requires all the time they have at hand, that they dont even have time to care for anything else.

edit: it comes really down to how u read and interpret things. the True Chosen is a very fitting name, why? Because Disciples are able to do things (mending bones, suppressing pain, and even raising critically injured warriors to fight again, etc) just Khaine could do in druchii society, if khaine actually would be a real beeing. so thats why they are called True Chosen, not because they're above all others all of a sudden.

[Slash]

I apologise Ganymed, your right I did take that out of context. However, that is only one part of the text I highlighted. "True Chosen" is enough to establish that Witch Elves (and maybe Hags) have been replaced as Khaine's most favored and important, due to Disciples being the "True Chosen".

EDIT: No offense but your idea about "True Chosen" just referring to how diverse and powerful Disciples are is silly.

the True Chosen is a very fitting name, why? Because Disciples are able to do things just Khaine could do (mending bones, raising critically injured warriors) in druchii society, if khaine actually would be a real beeing.Woah! Did you just imply Khaine would Resurrect? I mean he is a god, I guess people will contradict me and say "Yes he could". But even if he could he wouldn't. Because when it comes down to it, The God of Murder doesn't give a ****.

[Ganymed]

I apologise Ganymed, your right I did take that out of context. However, that is only one part of the text I highlighted. "True Chosen" is enough to establish that Witch Elves (and maybe Hags) have been replaced as Khaine's most favored and important, due to Disciples being the "True Chosen".

EDIT: No offense but your idea about "True Chosen" just referring to how diverse and powerful Disciples are is silly.

Woah! Did you just imply Khaine would Resurrect? I mean he is a god, I guess people will contradict me and say "Yes he could". But even if he could he wouldn't. Because when it comes down to it, The God of Murder doesn't give a ****.

lets not talk about resurrecting, lets talk about mending bone, suppressing pain, all thats explained in their class description. cause as others in this and other threads pointed out, resurrecting is a mere function this GAME will have to make it more playable.

the mechanics of resurrection and healing overall which exist in the game correspond to said mending bones etc., if u wanna describe it from a literature/lore view of point.

and no, probably he wouldnt give a about it; but his shepherds of war do most likely. as far as I see it, disciples get those powers granted by khaine, and they use them to their own purpose, how they see those powers fitting during a battle etc (now I just hope I got that grammatically right :p) I really doubt everytime they use one of their powers/skills / u name it they hold inner correspondence with khaine if they are allowed to do what they just did.

[Ayetalam]

You also forget how gods work in Warhammer. This was stated in Liber Chaotica, directly from GW themselves. I dont have a copy so i can't pull out excerpts but I think someone can. It states that a god can do whatever his followers believe he can do. So if he has followers that believe he can grant them healing and ressurrection powers, then he will be able to give them healing and resurrection powers, regardless if hes the god of murder, cows, penguins, or the devil himself. If they believe he can, he will.

[Sorceress]

You also forget how gods work in Warhammer. This was stated in Liber Chaotica, directly from GW themselves. I dont have a copy so i can't pull out excerpts but I think someone can. It states that a god can do whatever his followers believe he can do. So if he has followers that believe he can grant them healing and ressurrection powers, then he will be able to give them healing and resurrection powers, regardless if hes the god of murder, cows, penguins, or the devil himself. If they believe he can, he will.
I have no problems with a sect who goes against the flow of what the Khaine traditionally stands for, he has 1000 Aspects so it's not completely unprecedented that he could contradict himself that much.

However the Disciples are supposedly part of the Temple of Khaine, the same group that annually culls the population. I'm curious to see if they can make that work...

[Tapped]

"Few are the select chosen that survive the reveries of the Death Night. Fewer still are those who leave the Cauldron with eyes of molten brass, burning with the hatred of our Dark god. These true chosen are taken into the cult and trained in the most secret of rites, emerging as masters of death second to only Khaine himself.”


This text is where all the problems with the disciples seem to be coming from. I have a very easy solution to this.(Keep in mind i sometimes have trouble relaying my opinion on paper correctly). The words "select chosen" refering to the ones that survive the cauldron later become Assassins according to lore, rarely some survive and emerge with yellow eyes making them "True Chosen". Meaning in my interpretation of the english language better then the other chosen in the context of the paragraph in question. Not having anything to do with the witch elf as they are not "chosen" in this fashion in any lore i remember reading (i am not by any means a loremaster of warhammer, now if you want to talk Drow with me and other D&D lore thats another matter :rolleyes:)

In conclusion i don't think Mythic had a desire to usurp the Witch elf from thier place in the temple if anything i think they knocked the Assasshin down a notch which has no bearing in this game as they are not a part of the playable classes available.

That is all :-D

[Sorceress]

It's open to interpretation but it's a big red flag to see them being called "True Chosen" with Witch Elves also playable. I'll wait to see the specifics of the Disciple's role in the Temple before I dismiss the concept and join a group like True Blood.

[Blaze]

It's open to interpretation but it's a big red flag to see them being called "True Chosen" with Witch Elves also playable. I'll wait to see the specifics of the Disciple's role in the Temple before I dismiss the concept and join a group like True Blood.

I'm the same. I don't really like the idea all that much, but I think some people like Anglakhel have given some pretty good ideas for how it could work and be plausible.

I especially liked the idea that if the Witch Elves are the brides of Khaine then the Disciples would be the children. It is after all the Witch Elves who "give birth" to them by casting them in the cauldron of blood. Those children who survive are trained as Assassins. Those who come out alive and also have brass colored eyes are trained as Disciples.

Yeah it could work. The support role seems appropriate for a favored child; standing perhaps slightly behind the Witch Elves in the melee and wearing somewhat more armor.

The Witch Elves are the most devout servants of Khaine, rushing half-naked into battle to tear people to pieces in a drugged up frenzy in the time-honored traditions of the Temple.
The disciples are there to assist them because in this invasion the druchii cannot afford to suffer too many casualties, and are therefore granted abilities that keep the Khanies favored warriors in battle longer.