black orc or choppa???

[Ollion]

Is black orc just a tanking class, or isit capeable of doing some serious damage? if it isnt a serious damage class and thats what i wanted, should i be looking at the choppa instead? any thoughts welcome :)

[chady]

serious damage is a question of definitions i guess. But lets say that the black orc does in fact deal serious damage per your definition, then the choppa will deal more serious damage. The exact amount is currently undisclosed due to nda and due to class balancing still ongoing

[Paragonn]

choppa dmg > black orc dmg

Choppa is a dps class. The black orc is a tank, and while its dmg wont be pathetic in the slightest, the choppa's damage will still be higher than the black orc's

[Gemini]

If what your after is lots of big numbers, then yeah, the Choppa is what you want.

[RadioNinja]

Having read up a little on the career points or talent points or whatever they are calling them;

It looks like you'll be able to load up on damage dealing abilities or upgrades, at the expense of not having the defense and survivability of a Black Orc that focussed on tanking upgrades. Now you will probably not reach the average dps of an Orc Choppa, you'll be nearly there, and in certain situations, you may in fact be able to out-damage them. (pvp burst damage/high mobility fights.)

I personally will be playing a Black Orc because I like being the big lad that smashes the little stunties.

Some of the videos show black orcs using big two-handed choppas, I doubt a Blorc would forego a shield and grab a 2-hander and not be able to put a serious hurt on someone.

[NoneSuch]

Just stand back admit and figure out that In no way will a Tanking class match the Damage of a class designed to deal damage, Your role as a Tank will be to help and protect your allies. You main focus of your abilities will be to do that, Whatever masteries you get your main CORE skills will still be focused towards tanking.

You Are a tank - You will always be a tank, There's no questioning that. Sure you'll be dealing damage, so will the healers and all the other classes though. You can also not bother tanking, you can forget your abilities which support your allies - but people sure as heck won't bother grouping with you.

[RadioNinja]

Hate to break it to you, but nearly every more-pig out on the market is breaking the tanks don't dps rule.

Brutes in CoV, Warriors in WoW, Fighters in DDO, Templars in Hellgate London.

Al these games feature classes that are very good at tanking, but can be set up for very good dps that top a lot of the dps classes in the games.

And in these games, off-spec tanks are welcome additions to teams for what they bring to the party. Except for WoW pve, that game is a little slanted. If you can't dps AND crowd control, most people won't take you in the harder dungeons. (Certain Brutes in CoV, on the other hand, have excellent control abilities)

I don't know anything about LOTRO though. I played that game for a week and was bored to tears. I had fun playing the instruments, but not much else.

[NoneSuch]

Hate to break it to you, but nearly every more-pig out on the market is breaking the tanks don't dps rule.

Brutes in CoV, Warriors in WoW, Fighters in DDO, Templars in Hellgate London.

Al these games feature classes that are very good at tanking, but can be set up for very good dps that top a lot of the dps classes in the games.

Warriors in Wow can't tank , They have zero effective Tanking ability ( I'm talking PVP Here ) . Hellgate london is an FPS style RPG type game which isn't that good, DDO... and COV I've never tried.

No one is saying Classes can't deal damage, All classes can do that effectivly. What's being stated is that a class which main goal is to tank, which main abilities are focused upon tanking isn't going to be dealing damage on the scale of a class which main focus is dealing damage.

Would it make sense if a shaman could tank like a black orc? Would it make sense if a black orc could cast spells like a shaman? No it would not. Why would you want to fulfil a role with a class which isn't designed to fit it?

This ain't wow, nor is it those other games this is WAR. The class is clearly defined and unique, it's not a cut and paste job. It's still a tank, his core abilities are still going to be for tanking - You can go more offensive, but I see no reason why those offensive abilities won't simply make you an offensive tank with snares.

I'm not saying you have to play it in a certain way, I'm simply stating that chances are you'll be dissapointed if you go into the game trying to Cast and heal like a shaman or be equal to a Choppa in DPS as a Black orc.

[Gemini]

Having read up a little on the career points or talent points or whatever they are calling them;

It looks like you'll be able to load up on damage dealing abilities or upgrades, at the expense of not having the defense and survivability of a Black Orc that focussed on tanking upgrades. Now you will probably not reach the average dps of an Orc Choppa, you'll be nearly there, and in certain situations, you may in fact be able to out-damage them. (pvp burst damage/high mobility fights.)


You should have read a little bit closer. First, for the sake of the arguement, let's assume there is a straight "damage" path, which I don't think there will be. The initial beta update that mentioned the career mastery (number 4, I think) said the aim is for mastery to only increase the effectivenes of skills by 30% if you completely maxxed out that line. Sure, 30% is a big chunk, but that isn't just damage, it counts for things too like the debuffe effect of our attacks and such things. Also the melee dps careers will also be inreasing their damage numbers with mastery.

Also, other games doing it doesn't mean anything. Other games didn't have this specilization system, they had their own. Other games also didn't have the archtype system.

[RadioNinja]

I think I'm just basing my guestimation on what I read or heard in a podcast about the talent/level points. It stated that a tank class that didn't put many points into tanking would not be very effective at it. I'd think they'd have sometihng to make up for it if they put all their points into a dps tree rather than the tanking tree.

And in certain situations, like in rvr, you may have only a single second to get off a melee attack before the enemy goes out of range. An Orc Choppa may be able to get in a couple swipes of his little axes, where a Black Orc would get a swing with his big choppa. Although the swing speed on the orc choppa's choppas is pretty fast, he won't be able to make much use out of 'em unless he stays in melee for a prolonged period of time. The Black Orc, on the other hand, has to wait a few seconds before he can swing his big pig smasher again, so the time where he's not in melee combat with the enemy is less wasted then the Choppa's time.

Either way though, the stunties lose.

And CoV has the archetype system!

Also, shadow priests and drain-tank warlocks are breaking the rules too.

But the devs have to be taking in mind, that you won't always be able to get a full balanced party. I see warrior priests tanking somewhere down the line.

[Gemini]

I think I'm just basing my guestimation on what I read or heard in a podcast about the talent/level points. It stated that a tank class that didn't put many points into tanking would not be very effective at it. I'd think they'd have sometihng to make up for it if they put all their points into a dps tree rather than the tanking tree.


Please, show me this podcast. As far as I know they have said quite the opposite, all characters no matter how you spec will make you viable for your role. Also, I have yet to see them refrence any "tanking" mastery path. Thats what they're called btw, mastery paths.


But the devs have to be taking in mind, that you won't always be able to get a full balanced party. I see warrior priests tanking somewhere down the line.

You see a Warrior Priest tanking? What exactly makes you think they can tank? Their one single piece of plate armor over their robes, or their complete lack of any taunts, guard abilties, and other such things tanks have in this game.

[RadioNinja]

Thats what they're called btw, mastery paths.

Probably because talent tree was taken, I'll look for that tanking reference.

Here's one of them from the december grab bag:

<The masteries all focus around the question of, "how do you want to play this character?", and are meaningful and impactful decisions. The difference between using a sword, axe, or hammer is fairly cosmetic. An example in terms of masteries might be closer to "defensive abilities with a one-handed axe and a shield, versus offensive abilities with a great sword, versus positional attacks and debuffs with hammers". >

I think that is what the OP was looking for, yes most likely can make a Black Orc and focus on offensive abilities with a two-handed axe. And the offensive mastery tree will probably unlock extra two-handed axe attacks. Adam Gershowitz, the careers guy, said that going down mastery trees would unlock new spells/abilities in the podcast.

Warrior Priests, needing to engage in melee to build divine fury, which they can use to unleash attacks. Being able to equip one-handed hammers and shields. Protecting allies with spells, not just healing them. It looks to me like warrior priest is a good candidate for a mastery path that focusses on defense and/or tanking.

[NoneSuch]

Well yea the Warrior priest does look good for tanking , he's a well-armoured melee Class with healing spells. That dosn't just Scream tank, It also Screams overpowered :p but we'll see how it's balanced.

[Foofmonger]

I'd expect a fully damage specced Black Orc to do about the same amount of damage as a Choppa who hasn't used any mastery points.

Roughly a 30% difference.

[NoneSuch]

I'd expect a fully damage specced Black Orc to do about the same amount of damage as a Choppa who hasn't used any mastery points.

Roughly a 30% difference.

You can't spec damage, you spec offensive which dosn't actually mean DPS - For all we know it could mean anything, Offensive could simply mean the type of tanking abilities - like taking the fight to the enemy by stunning him. An offensive Blorc might not really do that much damage compared to a Blorc which hasn't specced offensivly, just uses different types of abilities to fulfil the tank role.

[Foofmonger]

You can't spec damage, you spec offensive which dosn't actually mean DPS - For all we know it could mean anything, Offensive could simply mean the type of tanking abilities - like taking the fight to the enemy by stunning him. An offensive Blorc might not really do that much damage compared to a Blorc which hasn't specced offensivly, just uses different types of abilities to fulfil the tank role.

Saying you can't be able to spec your black orc to do the maximum possible damage it can makes no sense.

There will be a certain combination of abilities/gear/mastery that will produce more damage then others. This is certain for every single class in this game. No need to argue semantics about buzzwords.

[RadioNinja]

When you consider what extra attacks may be unlocked from going down the offensive mastery tree, average dps could go a lot higher than just a 30% difference of a defensive mastery black orc.

[Foofmonger]

When you consider what extra attacks may be unlocked from going down the offensive mastery tree, average dps could go a lot higher than just a 30% difference of a defensive mastery black orc.

I meant that I estimate the damage difference between a full "damage" Black Orc, and a "damage" choppa will be roughly 30%.

In terms of dps numbers. The Choppa will easily have more burst more likely.

[NoneSuch]

When you consider what extra attacks may be unlocked from going down the offensive mastery tree, average dps could go a lot higher than just a 30% difference of a defensive mastery black orc.

It really really won't.

Devs have stated alot that masterys aren't going to change your class, simply the style of it. Offensive masterys aren't a path to become a DPS class with heavy armour, it's a style of combat more than anything.

[Groktul]

Facepalm.jpg

You don't need to do assloads of damage to beat oponents, tanks in this game are supposed to be the worst nightmare to melee DPS or any DPS for that matter.

Tanks beat melee DPS by not doing more damage than them, they beat melee DPS by wearing them down. They have high armor, stuns, and probably debuffs that they can use on their opponents.
If you don't want to defeat enemies in a defensive style, then this is not the archetype for you.
Simple enough.

If you're gonna run around with a twohander and not do your job, chances are that no one will want you in a group.
Second, the opposing factions are gonna laugh at you for trying to DPS and you dying right in front of their real DPSers noses.
"Oh look, another tank that think that he's an DPSer."

Warrior Priests may have a lot of armor, but that doesn't mean that they are worthy tanks, my guess is that GW is hinting the players that plays WPs, that their place is going to be standing next to the tank, smashing the tank's target and keeping themselves close to him, so the tank near him has an easier time taunting the enemies around him.

This game isn't based on WoW. And WoW isn't the first MMORPG that uses 'talent trees'
There are other MMORPGs that uses mastery paths as well, FYI.
So anything you experienced in WoW won't be seen or experienced in this game.
No shadow priests, no zomg trinket macro lolol pew pew 2 shotted, no healbots, etc.

If anything, WAR looks more like DAOC, by the looks of it.

[NoneSuch]

Tanks don't have to play defensivly to be effective, The Black Orcs very nature is to be an offensive tank laying out alot of debuffs, stuns and such to the enemy. They shouldn't stand in the way of the enemy attacks and take blows for you, they will be hitting the enemy so they're incapable of hitting you.

This dosn't make the Blorc heavy DPS, but it does make it's playstyle offensive , we know they have builders which let them unlock more debuffs and such. A blorc with a two-hander should be just as viable for tanking and effective as one with a shield.

[Groktul]

Tanks don't have to play defensivly to be effective, The Black Orcs very nature is to be an offensive tank laying out alot of debuffs, stuns and such to the enemy. They shouldn't stand in the way of the enemy attacks and take blows for you, they will be hitting the enemy so they're incapable of hitting you.

This dosn't make the Blorc heavy DPS, but it does make it's playstyle offensive , we know they have builders which let them unlock more debuffs and such. A blorc with a two-hander should be just as viable for tanking and effective as one with a shield.

I'm not saying Tanks should just stand there and getting hit. Of course they attack the opponent.
A defensive warrior waits for it's opponent to attack, and as soon the opponent attacks, he will use defensive moves to avoid his attacks or intercepts his attack with his sword or shield, block it, parry it, etc.
As soon as THAT happens, the defensive warrior takes full advantage of the openings his attacker leaves and THEN attacks him, using his shield and weapon both as tools.
Shield slams, quick stabs to vital spots, etc.
That's what a defensive fighter does.

The Black Orc in the Trailer video is a good example of what an defensive-offensive tank does in a fight.
The stuntie attacks, the orc blocks the attack with his shield and counterattacks swiftly with a powerful slam to his chin, exploiting that opening the stuntie left behind when he attacked the orc.

I know that the Black Orc is generally more offensive than their other tank counterparts.
But I'm saying that a Tank doesn't need to do SUPER damage to take his opponents down.
A Black Orc using a twohander gives him less survivability, I don't get it, why anyone would want to use a twohander with a class that is not designed for DPS.
Sure, every class can do damage in this game, so can Black Orcs, but their damage is not gonna be jaw dropping.
Not doing your job and pretending you're an MS warrior is just going to screw yourself over and your group.

[NoneSuch]

Black orcs are immensly violent and aggressive creatures, They don't care for other Orcs they think smaller creatures are weak, pathetic and deserve to die. That sort of attitude obviously sucks ingame and it make for terrible tanking, but it should reflect there abilities and such.

Rather than - " The black Orc helps his allies and deflects blows from them" It should be " The Black Is annoyed how the enemy are attacking Grots who can't put up a fight rather than himself, so he gets in the way so the fightin' is around him".

The basic idea is that Blorcs are Offensive, they perfom the role of a tank but not in a traditional way. They're a unique class, which revolve around building up combo attacks to unleash debuffs on there foe and dirty attacks like elbowing them in the face and smashing enemy dangly bits in with their knee.

I'm not trying to make the black orc a MS warrior, I've been clear enough I don't think he should have high DPS like that - It dosn't mean he shouldn't be focused around being Offensive and smashin' enemy heads so they can't deal damage to allys. It's A black orcs nature, I see Choppa' and shield as being an option rather than a neccesity.

What's wrong with Two-handers? Is it really that bad giving people options? Blorcs in the lore have a variety of weaponary and I don't see why an offensive tank wouldn't be using the largest thing at hand. Two-handers could open up a few more debuff skills and such, which would only increase their tanking ability.

[Groktul]

Yeah, I know that.
If anything, poor gobbos and snotlings suffer more from Black Orcs than regular Orcs.

It's the same thing with the other Destruction tanks, they don't protect their allies out of compassion, they protect them 'cause it's their job on the battlefield.
As for Black Orcs, they are protecting the other grots 'cause of the WAAAGH! and it's obvious they want to win the fight to show the enemies that Greenskins are the best fighters in the ooniverse and at the same time, enjoying themselves while they smash some enemy 'eads which all orcs love to do.
They don't protect other greenskins out of compassion and they protect fellow greenskins in the orcy way. Rough and....orcy.
"Oi, ya grot, you'z callin' dat stompin'? OUTTA ME WAY, lemme sho' ya how it'z done!"
"Do I hafta do everyfink by meself 'round 'ere? OUTTA ME WAY, this iz how ya do it. *Smashes stuntie*"
Gotta love them. :P

Exactly, which is why they are fine. Black Orcs won't have any problems against melee DPS because of this.

It wouldn't make sense if Black Orcs can do just as much damage as Choppas, because, if so, what's the point of having Choppas around then?
Every Archetype has it's own role.

The thing is, it'll gimp your survivability severely if you are going to use a twohander on a epic scale fight. The healer is going to have a hard time keeping you up if they are going to focus fire you.
Because, if you get killed, the enemy won't have the 50% less damage debuff anymore, thus screwing the other boyz.

But then again, we're not sure what for abilities will be unlocked for the Black Orc that uses twohanders, if it's REALLY worth it to sacrifice survivability for that. 50% less healing, %? more damage on his target, additional stun, etc. Debuffs like this, then it's worth it.
I'm not sure if we can switch weapons and shields in combat, if that is possible then good tanks can use a twohander and place every debuff useable with a twohander on his target, after more enemies starts to focus fire on him, he could switch to a shield so the healer can easily keep him alive.

I know that in the lore Black Orcs wields huge weapons and are extremely aggressive and ruthless once they are fighting, but this is a game. Black Orcs are more resilient, stronger, bigger and are more suitable for being tanks than normal Orcs.
Which is why Mythic picked them as tanks.
I'm just worried that people will go rambo in this game and won't care for their fellow faction members, I experienced it a lot in other RvR/PvP games.
In case you don't know what the word means. Rambo...one man army, solo, doesn't care for their teammates and does whatever he wants on the battlefield.
:P

[NoneSuch]

I'd really think Mythic would have failed miserably at making a MMO if a Shield would increase survivability beyond a matter of seconds and would be nothing an extra heal would fix, Classes aren't going to be relying on their gear but player skills and abilities. Just like I'd be worried if a Two-hander Dramaticly increased DPS when compared to Choppa and a shield.

Those sort of things should be there to help you decide your playstyle rather than something required.

[craz1e83]

Ok, first Warhammer will be more so based on daoc and it's experience than on wow however i expect for them to take the best of both worlds and the mix them up.

as for tanks not being able to do dps, that is just wrong. take daoc for example because that is mythics view on tanks. tanks beat melee dps because of their ability to use a shield and block the light tanks attacks while still being able to get through the light tanks weaker defenses. this is what causes the light tank to lose most of the time. this being said, 1 two hander will usually out dps 2 one handers for the first 10-20 seconds of any fight. this being due to the lack of delay on the swing that you occur for your first swing.

to better explain look at the example below

two handed black orc

combat mode with 2hand weap
0:00 swing hit for 200 damage

0:04 swing hit for 200 damage

0:08 swing hit for 200 damage

0:12 swing hit for 200 damage


melee dps with two faster 1 handed weaps
0:00 swing hit for 100 (mainhand)
0:00 swing hit for 70 (offhand)

0:03 swing hit for 100 (mainhand)
0:03 swing hit for 70 (offhand)

0:06 swing hit for 100 (mainhand)
0:06 swing hit for 70 (offhand)

0:09 swing hit for 100 (mainhand)
0:09 swing hit for 70 (offhand)

0:12 swing hit for 100 (mainhand)
0:12 swing hit for 70 (offhand)

in twelve seconds the two-handed weap did 800 damage

in twelve seconds the two one handers did 850 damage

obviously this is an example based on how mythics other game, daoc, works however as you acn see the bigger initial opening is what gives two handed weapons better burst DPS ability while two one haners give better damage per second over time. i mean just look at the very first attack, 0 secs 2 hander does 200 damage while the dual one handers does 170, however at twelve seconds the one handers have caught up and passed the two handed in dps.

this leads to big question to sustained dps or burst dps... in my experience burst dps is what wins... kill someone before they get time to receive heals or know what is going on in the key

also from the looks of it the black orc and swordmaster both seem to be the offensive minded tanks of the game, while chosen and knight are the buffing and debuffing knights , and ironbreaker and black guard are the defensive ones

[Chuck Bronsun]

Right now I'm thinking of playing a Greenskin. The sadness however begins with the fact that almost every PvP video I've seen where Orcs are fighting Dwarves the Dwarves walk away alive and the Orcs all die. Since Hammers stun, what will the Choppas do? Bleed them out? Stunning seems more useful in combat as it take the opponent out of the time for a time....

Dare I play a Stuntie instead? :confused:

[Gemini]

Right now I'm thinking of playing a Greenskin. The sadness however begins with the fact that almost every PvP video I've seen where Orcs are fighting Dwarves the Dwarves walk away alive and the Orcs all die. Since Hammers stun, what will the Choppas do? Bleed them out? Stunning seems more useful in combat as it take the opponent out of the time for a time....

Dare I play a Stuntie instead? :confused:

Let's see, where to start? the videos are all alpha/early beta vids, they are all convention players who've never played before, or the fact your exagerating the power of the stuns. CC is all quite limited in WAR, the Hammerers aren't stunlocking or anything, you'll have plenty of chance to lay down the punishment.

[Chuck Bronsun]

Oh I'm playing a Choppa, no doubt. I was just saying being stupid. :) I'll be the one laying out the punishment, while my brethren the Black Orc has my back.

[DarkSnakeR]

It's not 'cause the developers say Black Orcs are tanks, that they will spent their life running around with a shield and being defensively.

If you have played DAoC, you would know that tanks could deal insane amounts of damage with their two-handed weapons. You could spec 50 shield and still be able to get50 points in the two-handed spec. Shield was most of the time used to stun people (i.e. slam - 9 sec stun), and then they would switch to their 2-hander to deal some nice damage from behind.

There were Melee DPS classes too (i.e. berserker, blademaster, mercenary,...) who would be dealing better Damage Per Second, rather than just Damage (like the tanks).
The difference is that the tank can deal lots of damage in 1 hit, but it's at a very slow rate... and you can't really afford the enemy blocking/parrying/evading your swing.

The Melee DPS doesn't deal that much in 1 hit, but the fact that his attacks are way faster and that he's hitting with 2 weapons at the same time... makes him in the end the best damage dealer. They really don't have to worry about missing an attack, 'cause the next hit is already on it's way.

[Swizzo]

I'm really torn between playing a Black Orc or a Choppa/Marauder.

I won't be able to make a real decision until I've tried out actual PvP as a tank (which I've never done before) vs. the melee as a Choppa/Marauder (which are probably a bit different from each other).

Right now I don't have enough actual evidence to decide which playstyle I will like better.

[Chuck Bronsun]

Same here. At first I was going Black Orc, but in recent weeks I've moved toward the Choppa. I'll definitely make one of each to see what they are both about.

[Fat Otaku]

Dunno myself. One one hand I want to be a big, strong, and armored Black Orc who is looking to get the war done, and get to the lovin. And then I want to be a Choppa who is just a psychotic, blood thirsty, and indecent kind of Greenskin.

[Duke McDurk]

Is black orc just a tanking class, or isit capeable of doing some serious damage? if it isnt a serious damage class and thats what i wanted, should i be looking at the choppa instead? any thoughts welcome :)

If you want to be a crazy, psycho hero on the field, go Choppa. He's a berzerker with speed, two choppas, and the constitution of an Orc. He may not have the armor of a black orc, but I'd imagine they'll be one of the toughest MDPS classes out there on the destruction side. Choppas are awesome. These guys are suicidal offensive monsters. WAAGH to the extreme.

Whenever we are rolling into to battle, some Choppa is going to be sprinting into the chaos screaming and wailing at everything. "He's gonna kill somebody!"

[RadioNinja]

Choppa DPS depends on working up a berserking fury, like how the Hammerer needs to build up momentum.

In short battles, you'll be outdamaged by the other DPS classes, but if you can stay constantly fighting, you'll be the one doing more damage.

[TrooperX]

Let's use a comparison of WoW, a warrior in WoW can either be defensive if he puts points in his Protection talent tree but it can also do major dps if he puts points in his fury or arms talent trees.

So it might be possible that they will do the same in WAR ofcourse as everyone clearly states, a Black Orc will never out-dps or match the dps of a class that is designed for DPS (hehe) but I don't think that with a proper build the difference will be all that big. My 2 cents :D

[Zacharius]

Dunno myself. One one hand I want to be a big, strong, and armored Black Orc who is looking to get the war done, and get to the LOVIN.

Black Orc's DON'T LOVE they fight! Let the war carry on till the world ends! Greenskins will never stop fightin!

And as for the topic at hand... Black Orc's deal damage in bursts, when they hit they hit HARD. And Choppa's deal DPS. Not as much as the Black Orc in a single attack. But they do a hell of alot more overall

[VanCrackin]

Seems to me like the Choppa is the anti-tank melee class.

The tanks wear others down over time. Where as the choppa only gets stronger over time.

amirite? XD

[VanCrackin]

If its burst damage we are talking about, I am rolling Black Orc. :) I have found that burst in PvP>sustained DPS.

but that is my WoW standpoint.

[Pandemonium]

I hope this write up can help, but a lot of it probally changed since then http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16144&start=0. In my opinion, the Black Orc will probally be able to do some pretty good damage is specced all offensive, but in comparision to a Choppa, I'm thinking that they should never be close together in Damage meters.

I just thought of a problem. Tanks would be able to spec in either more defense or more damage (I know theirs three masteries), but what would a Choppa spec in? In seems that they would have less choices to choose from. Can anyone clarify to me what some of the masteries might be for a Choppa?

[wizened]

As a guess i would say the choppa can spec in different ways to deal damage, or maybe one that could specialise in hindering your opponent more. All speculation but I can't really see a choppa being able to spec for better defense

[Zacharius]

If its burst damage we are talking about, I am rolling Black Orc. :) I have found that burst in PvP>sustained DPS.

but that is my WoW standpoint.

Burst damage only would SEEM more powerful because its alot of damage in one hit. But as I said before, even if you do a huge amount of damage in one hit the class that is ment to do damage (in this case the choppa) is going to do what he was made to do. More damage.

Put simply its like this. You can do quite a nasty amount of damage with a burst weapon (such as a two-handed one for example) in one hit. But a class that has two one-handers is gonna do about the same amount in the time it takes you to strike again. And if you miss with a two-hander you've lost quite abit in the amount of damage you were dealing, which isn't the same story for someone who is duel-wielding.

Or something along those lines anyway. I know what I mean even if no one else does :lol:

[porcu12345]

I hope this write up can help, but a lot of it probally changed since then http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16144&start=0. In my opinion, the Black Orc will probally be able to do some pretty good damage is specced all offensive, but in comparision to a Choppa, I'm thinking that they should never be close together in Damage meters.

I just thought of a problem. Tanks would be able to spec in either more defense or more damage (I know theirs three masteries), but what would a Choppa spec in? In seems that they would have less choices to choose from. Can anyone clarify to me what some of the masteries might be for a Choppa?

choppa would probably have a
Duel Weilding DPS Tree
2 handed weapon DPS Tree
Maybe then, a Tree focussing on AOE attacks, or maybe even a survivability tree.. like increased health, armour count.. etc to keep you in the battle longer. Seing as choppas get stronger the longer they're in the fight it makes sense.

[Gutz Bag!]

Wez Black Orcs are da biggest and da smashiest! Much bigga den da Choppas! Biggest iz best!

What I mean is, Black Orcs in lore are bigger, better orcs, and choppas are footsoldiers. Although there will be gameplay balance anyway...

[TrooperX]

Wez Black Orcs are da biggest and da smashiest! Much bigga den da Choppas! Biggest iz best!

What I mean is, Black Orcs in lore are bigger, better orcs, and choppas are footsoldiers. Although there will be gameplay balance anyway...

It's true that Black Orcs are referred as the leaders, but every class has its own specific role.

As for addition to this topic, black orcs have 3 mastery trees, 1 defensive, 1 offensive and most likely 1 for debuffs, snares, roots and beneficial buffs.

What I'm gonna do is take my Black Orc and take both the offensive tree and the 3rd tree, I know I won't do massive dps but when I bash on stunties they're like: "ohh it's just a tank, better take out that goblin shaman first. AHMAGAD this Black Orc is annoying I better kill him! Awww dude I'm dead =[." And I will spam /laugh if WAR gives such emotes.

[Malvos]

choppa would probably have a
Duel Weilding DPS Tree
2 handed weapon DPS Tree
Maybe then, a Tree focussing on AOE attacks, or maybe even a survivability tree.. like increased health, armour count.. etc to keep you in the battle longer. Seing as choppas get stronger the longer they're in the fight it makes sense.

I highly doubt your going to see a Choppa with a 2h tree.

[RadioNinja]

Burst damage only would SEEM more powerful because its alot of damage in one hit. But as I said before, even if you do a huge amount of damage in one hit the class that is ment to do damage (in this case the choppa) is going to do what he was made to do. More damage.

Put simply its like this. You can do quite a nasty amount of damage with a burst weapon (such as a two-handed one for example) in one hit. But a class that has two one-handers is gonna do about the same amount in the time it takes you to strike again. And if you miss with a two-hander you've lost quite abit in the amount of damage you were dealing, which isn't the same story for someone who is duel-wielding.

Or something along those lines anyway. I know what I mean even if no one else does :lol:


Burst damage will also seem more powerful when you spend half a fight stunned or laying on your back or slowed and trying to move into melee.

And perception is reality.

[linuxnacrot]

Let's use a comparison of WoW, a warrior in WoW can either be defensive if he puts points in his Protection talent tree but it can also do major dps if he puts points in his fury or arms talent trees.

So it might be possible that they will do the same in WAR ofcourse as everyone clearly states, a Black Orc will never out-dps or match the dps of a class that is designed for DPS (hehe) but I don't think that with a proper build the difference will be all that big. My 2 cents :D

Not because WoW did it means all other games have to. In WAR characters will not be able to spec for opposing roles (ala Shadow/Holy Priests or Fury/Defensive Warriors); a tank will always tank, a DPS class will always DPS. This however doesn't mean they don't have different ways to do it. For example, an Offensive B-Orc might have an attack that deals some dmg and snares the opponent, while a Defensive one might have a taunt that increases their Toughness.

Edit: I'm probably gonna roll an Offensive(for being an "in your face" nuisance) Black Orc and a Choppa(for straight up DPS)

[RadioNinja]

Devs already told us that healers can just dps if they feel like it. Warrior Priests can spend all their Fury on attacks.

[Confabulation]

I don't know what you people are trying to prove by arguing that a Black Orc will be able to deal comparable damage to a Choppa, and more to the point, why would you not play to your strengths (i.e. your class is a tank class). Do you just like juggling around the illogical possibilities that you can be some sort of B.A.M.F. that can tank and DPS at the same time with no negative consequences? What would be the point of having the Choppa in the game at all if the Black Orc specced offensively could out DPS him? Seriously, just stop and think for a second about it in a slow and analytical manner.

Oh, also, if you want to melee DPS, maybe look into rolling an Orc Choppa instead of a Black Orc? Just a thought.

Also, they've explicitly mentioned that if all a Warrior Priest does is do damage and not heal, his healing abilities will suffer over time and he won't live up to his full potential. Same with a Dark Elf Sorceress, same with all the other descriptions of all the other classes they've given.

[TrooperX]

I don't know what you people are trying to prove by arguing that a Black Orc will be able to deal comparable damage to a Choppa, and more to the point, why would you not play to your strengths (i.e. your class is a tank class). Do you just like juggling around the illogical possibilities that you can be some sort of B.A.M.F. that can tank and DPS at the same time with no negative consequences? What would be the point of having the Choppa in the game at all if the Black Orc specced offensively could out DPS him? Seriously, just stop and think for a second about it in a slow and analytical manner.

Oh, also, if you want to melee DPS, maybe look into rolling an Orc Choppa instead of a Black Orc? Just a thought.

Also, they've explicitly mentioned that if all a Warrior Priest does is do damage and not heal, his healing abilities will suffer over time and he won't live up to his full potential. Same with a Dark Elf Sorceress, same with all the other descriptions of all the other classes they've given.

I don't think anyone said they could DPS the same as a choppa or even more, but it's kinda obvious why people want a black orc and be able to DPS isn't it? Black Orcs just look pretty cool and a lotta people don't like tanking, that's it.

If there are any other reasons why people are arguing that Black Orcs can DPS fairly, stand up, but I doubt there are. Maybe because Black Orcs can take a beating and people that want to be able to take a beating want to give a beating aswel.

[Schwarzork]

Iam not sure right now, what iam speccing in release. If 1H+shield is realy effective in RvR i may go this way. But when iam thinking about a Blorc i think about Grimgor Ironpelt, who had a big damn axe cleaving his way through enemy lines...

I will check both sides when the game is out or i get into beta, but till then iam not sure.

[Confabulation]

Hate to break it to you, but nearly every more-pig out on the market is breaking the tanks don't dps rule.

Brutes in CoV, Warriors in WoW, Fighters in DDO, Templars in Hellgate London.

Al these games feature classes that are very good at tanking, but can be set up for very good dps that top a lot of the dps classes in the games.

And in these games, off-spec tanks are welcome additions to teams for what they bring to the party. Except for WoW pve, that game is a little slanted. If you can't dps AND crowd control, most people won't take you in the harder dungeons. (Certain Brutes in CoV, on the other hand, have excellent control abilities)

I don't know anything about LOTRO though. I played that game for a week and was bored to tears. I had fun playing the instruments, but not much else.

Really? Posts like this tend to show me otherwise.

[Schwarzork]

Really? Posts like this tend to show me otherwise.

I don't get your arguments.

[TrooperX]

I do agree with RadioNinja on one hand.

off-spec (or DPS spec) Black Orcs will certainly bring something to the table. Let's say a black orc with points in the DPS tree and the snares/roots tree will certainly be a huge pain in the for Order. But people who are going to play Black Orc should still focus more on tanking.

And hey, there is a respec option :cool:

[Korica Riftaxe]

We Black Orcs is da biggest! We chop da hardest, and we smash da strongest!

[rude137]

I don't think the BO's that want to DPS want choppa DPS in plate. They just want to sacrifice some of the Choppa's damage and mobility for survivability. For a lot of people the beauty of MMO's is the customizing. If you were to pigeon hole a tank, throw him a shield of a thousand walls and a rusty level 1 dagger and say "hey don't cry, your role isn't DPS" is kind of closed minded in my opinion.

I understand all the DPS people's concerns. If Tanks had the same damage what would be the point to even playing a MDPS. I trust mythic will do the right thing and correctly balance MDPS and the DPS Tank. MDPS will have more damage, the mobility and the tools to close the gap and get out of combat. That's a rather big bonus in my book. I think the Tank will have a lot of tanking focused "offensive" abilities that do both damage and help do their core job.

Past games do cause concerns/fear for a lot people. But I would wait and see what it's like at release before yelling at someone in the forums for wanting to specialize in DPS with their tank and/or healer.

[exx]

Devs already told us that healers can just dps if they feel like it. Warrior Priests can spend all their Fury on attacks.

any wp that decides to play their class that way will find themselves not finding groups once they get to 40 and want to do some of the last pvp or pve

same goes for a bo that doesnt fill the role of a tank and just runs around attaking the other sides suport like a mele dps would be doing

war is going to change the way a tank acts in pvp by actually giving them abilities that work.

so if you want to not worry about anyone but yourself and kill the enemy be a choppa they will be needed.
but if your play a bo you need to understand that grps are going to want you as a wall between the other teams mele/dps and your own suport range/dps

you might get to 4o being a th dps bo, but i guarantee that grps at the high end area are going to want bo to be a tank

[Eliphas-WorldBearer]

Black Orc since my Destruction melee DPS will be Marauder...
Chaos Tentacles FTW:mrgreen:

[Korica Riftaxe]

Black Orc since my Destruction melee DPS will be Marauder...
Chaos Tentacles FTW:mrgreen:

All we need now is some Japanese Schoolgirls, no?

[Button Basher]

Well we can all try what we want considering there is a respec option.

What my concern is tho, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing a zealot being ganked and me charging in knocking the attacker away etc. But will they balance out the renown points and experience points u get? I mean healers get a bit of renown everytime they heal an ally but how can they notice that I protected an ally as a tank class?

Cause normally they look at what % damage u have done to a certain target as in someone did 70% and then u come in doing the last 30% meaning one person gets 70% renown and the other 30% if not in the same party ofc. Maybe this counts for experience as well, that I don't know.

So considering we're not massive damage dealers how will they balance the point rewards out for us?

[Arch0n]

I think there's way too much we don't know to begin speculating. Even after release, nerfs and tweaks will happen.

My guess however: I don't see Black Orcs (or any "tank" class in WAR) doing comparable melee DPS, or especially ranged DPS. I see them doing debuffs (like taunts), stuns, knockbacks, physical displacement, and those types of things first... and damage second. The nature of the game demands that they have some unconventional abilities, because you need to MAKE the opposing human players want to target you.

Now then: if tank DPS is comparable to melee DPS, and tanks have better survivability, who's going to roll a Choppa? If tank DPS is comparable to ranged DPS, there will be hardly any ranged DPSers. If the disparity is too low, then I'm going to gain a lot more overall by rolling five tanks and having each one survive longer.

No, you have to make each archetype very distinct from its fellows or else you'll have entire guilds of one archetype, with just a small handful of "gotcha" classes. I believe the tanks won't be able to reach melee DPS very well at all, and I think they'll never even approach ranged DPS.

Ranged DPS = biggest hitter, no contest. But squishie. Melee DPS and tanks can both eat these guys up.

Melee DPS = high damage, medium armor. Not as heavy hitting as ranged, but better survivability.

Healer / utility = Heals and buffs and rezzes... medium armor.

Tanks = High survivability, average damage. Protects all the others! And it cannot do that with just DPS.

[cleanse.purge.kill.]

what you said about the 2 hand weapons and a shiled and what not, might not apply as much in a pvp oriented game like WAR as opposed to WoW where tanking is only really used to take down elite mobs in pve, therefore you have to have tons and tons of armor and having a shield is absolutely neccesary, however when playing mostly with other players, tanking with a 2 handed weapon might not seem like such a bad choice, although im sure the most effective meat shield tanking will be done with a shieldHaving read up a little on the career points or talent points or whatever they are calling them;

It looks like you'll be able to load up on damage dealing abilities or upgrades, at the expense of not having the defense and survivability of a Black Orc that focussed on tanking upgrades. Now you will probably not reach the average dps of an Orc Choppa, you'll be nearly there, and in certain situations, you may in fact be able to out-damage them. (pvp burst damage/high mobility fights.)

I personally will be playing a Black Orc because I like being the big lad that smashes the little stunties.

Some of the videos show black orcs using big two-handed choppas, I doubt a Blorc would forego a shield and grab a 2-hander and not be able to put a serious hurt on someone.

[oopsieoopsie]

In WoW, a warrior can be the highest DPS class if speced and equipped right. They can also be the toughest class if specced a different way.

Most classes can change how they work quite considerably using talents, so they almost become different classes.

For an extreme example, druids. Balance druids are very good range DPS classes, feral druids are amazing melee DPS/Tanks and restro druids are about the best healers there are. This means druids are infact closer to being three classes than one.

Yet, many people seem to be saying you'll never get this kind of flexibility and customisability is WAR.

Once a tank, always a tank. It seems kind of restricting to be honest.

[Gemini]

Yet, many people seem to be saying you'll never get this kind of flexibility and customisability is WAR.

Once a tank, always a tank. It seems kind of restricting to be honest.

Thats kind of the point of the archetype system. Since you used WoW as an example, I will too. Theres only one class really built for melee dps from the ground up, and thats the Rogue. So, to compensate, they allowed classes such as the Warrior and Druid to do that too. In WAR, you have 6 different choices for melee dps, so if one class dosn't strike your fancy, you'll still have 5 more.

Mythic has said on many occasions that specs won't change the role of your class, just how you perform it. You can spec for more damage with your tank, sure, but it's not gonna change your archetype, your still gonna be a tank. The last number they gave us for maxing out a mastery path was 30% increase to all the skills in that path.

[Fleshs]

All we need now is some Japanese Schoolgirls, no?

HAHAHAHA :D

[Dracc]

You guys cant compare the way wow classes spec to the way warhammer classes will spec. In WoW a druid can spec to fulfill all 4 archetypes, in warhammer a tank isnt going to be able to spec healing, or a healer be able to spec tank. Its going to be more refined, each class will have a very specific role that they will be able to tweak depending on how they play it, but no tank is going to be able to respec to be the MS warrior of warhammer. If they could then why roll a squishier Mdps?

[oopsieoopsie]

So, in WAR all classes are going to be samey? With little real difference.

Sorry guys, I'm failing to see how this is a good thing.

[Button Basher]

So, in WAR all classes are going to be samey? With little real difference.

Sorry guys, I'm failing to see how this is a good thing.

Well you have to look at the archetypes. Every class is given a role, you (the player) can fine tune your character but you can never change your core role.

I had a hard time accepting that fact aswel because I wanted to play a cool looking Chosen and be able to dps as the marauder, but that ain't gonna happen.

Still every spec of every class will bring something to the table!

[Gemini]

So, in WAR all classes are going to be samey? With little real difference.

Sorry guys, I'm failing to see how this is a good thing.

No, not at all. Watch podcast #10. (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/podcast/)

[oopsieoopsie]

No, not at all. Watch podcast #10. (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/podcast/)

My appologies. I didn't make my post very clear.

What I meant is that all characters of any particular class will be very similar to every other character of the same class.

For example, you won't be able to specialse your black orc singificantly away from everyone elses black orc. You've fought one, you've fought them all.

That's what I meant by samey. I relised that there are four different class archtypes.

[Gemini]

It depends on your definition of significant. The masteries (and tactics, and morale abilities) don't competely redo the class, but a Chosen who specializes in Auras will fight different than a Chosen who beats on you with a very large stick, but they both will be tanks, that isn't gonna change. A lot of games have a lot of customization skill-wise to make up for somewhat generic or limited class selection.

WAR takes the opposite path, of giving you lots of class choice in exchange for the ability to make a class perform two or three different roles depending on spec. Since most people play or at least know enough about WoW, I'll use that as an example. If you want a big guy in heavy armor, you have two choices, mundane (non-magical), or holy magic, the Warrior or the Paladin. However, you can spec them to do different sorts of things, because if everyone was the same two fighters in heavy armor, that would suck. In WAR, if you want a guy in heavy armor, you have 6 choices (if you don't wanna count the Choppa and Hammerer who also seem to have decent armor), each with a different style cosmetically and mechanicly. In exchange for the extra choice in classes, a little bit of customization is sacrificed.

I'm not here to tell you which is better, and I can understand why you would be unhappy with it, but I hope my explination could at least explain Mythic's choice. Customization will matter, but not to the scale as some other games.

[Waaaagh]

Mythic has said that no hybrid class (tank/dps, heal/dps) will ever put out as much damage as a pure dps class. This said, no an BO will never do as much damage as a Choppa, but it balances out. BO have many disruptive skills and higher survivability than Choppas. Choppas deal massive amounts of damage, but get killed easier. It all depends on your playstyle. Personally I'm making BO my main :p

[Button Basher]

My appologies. I didn't make my post very clear.

What I meant is that all characters of any particular class will be very similar to every other character of the same class.

For example, you won't be able to specialse your black orc singificantly away from everyone elses black orc. You've fought one, you've fought them all.

That's what I meant by samey. I relised that there are four different class archtypes.

Hmm have been brain cracking on how to put this but I can't really.. To me it's kinda obvious, there are already so many different classes with different mechanics to choose from and then u also wanna make those characters able to change their ways of fighting completely? Seems to much work for mythic and I'm already bummed that it's pushed back to Fall

[Spikey]

I don't see wy you all find it so hard to understand why someone would want to play a DPSing BO.

Everyone loves to be the guy doing loads of damage, but most MDPS go down way too fast. If you can spec your BO to do good DPS -and- still have plate armor for good survivability then for me that would be a good alternative to a choppa. The Choppa will probably still do more damage, but has more options over HOW to do his damage, whereas a BO can spec damage, but can't spec 'DD' or DOTS or stuns etc.

If Black Orcs turn out to be able to spec damage fairly well I'll roll one. As to nobody picking a tank who is trying to be DPS and not doing the job as well as an MDPS... They will be far easier to heal in a group PvPing which people will appreciate. As I see it though, choppas are the most durable destruction MDPS anyway so it shouldn't be too big a problem.

[ZeJoop]

jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj

[Button Basher]

As I see it though, choppas are the most durable destruction MDPS anyway so it shouldn't be too big a problem.

Actually Choppas seem the least durable MDPS on Destruction side for their current berserking ability. No other MDPS has a mechanic that lowers their defense but strenghtens their offense like the choppas. The marauder seems the most durable MDPS class to me, with their knockdowns (club mutation) and defensive temporary mutations like hardened skin or sumthing (which aren't officially anounced I think)

[Under_World]

Well yea the Warrior priest does look good for tanking , he's a well-armoured melee Class with healing spells. That dosn't just Scream tank, It also Screams overpowered :p but we'll see how it's balanced.

Healing Melee hybrids have pretty bad track records in MMOs. They typically come out as second rate healers and third string damage dealers.

As far as Choppa's go, they are looking like the best DPSers on Destruction. They have the option to give up defensive power for offensive. (Always a stellar trade) And don't have to worry about poisons or stealth type damage nerfs like Witch Elf will.

The only class that might be able to stand toe to toe with them in DPS is the Maurauder, and only if they have similar mechanics in one of their mutation lines.

[Oddwin]

Healing Melee hybrids have pretty bad track records in MMOs. They typically come out as second rate healers and third string damage dealers.

As far as Choppa's go, they are looking like the best DPSers on Destruction. They have the option to give up defensive power for offensive. (Always a stellar trade) And don't have to worry about poisons or stealth type damage nerfs like Witch Elf will.

The only class that might be able to stand toe to toe with them in DPS is the Maurauder, and only if they have similar mechanics in one of their mutation lines.


WAR is alittle different though in that all the healers are also damage dealers, so i doubt that they will be second rate healers.

as for the best dps. im not sure if its safe to say the choppa is gonna be stronger then the witch elf. the witch elf derscription says "The more blood they spill, the greater their fervor for battle. " which means their dps could scale with gear more then others, because the more blood they spill the more dps they will do. dots such as poisons are also excellent for pve dps, especially boss fights, and typically give a dps class better overall dps that balances because it takes away burst dps that is important for pvp. stealth is usually given to a class because they are so offensive, they would die to quickly without it. i think the witch elf is looking like a very strong dps choice.

[Malis]

WAR is alittle different though in that all the healers are also damage dealers, so i doubt that they will be second rate healers.

as for the best dps. im not sure if its safe to say the choppa is gonna be stronger then the witch elf. the witch elf derscription says "The more blood they spill, the greater their fervor for battle. " which means their dps could scale with gear more then others, because the more blood they spill the more dps they will do. dots such as poisons are also excellent for pve dps, especially boss fights, and typically give a dps class better overall dps that balances because it takes away burst dps that is important for pvp. stealth is usually given to a class because they are so offensive, they would die to quickly without it. i think the witch elf is looking like a very strong dps choice.

Out of beserk i think you are right, however when a choppa is zerking....i think no one will match thier dps (as far as MDPS goes).

[Oddwin]

Out of beserk i think you are right, however when a choppa is zerking....i think no one will match thier dps (as far as MDPS goes).

i dont think that would be a very balanced thing for mythic to do :)

[Under_World]

DAoC Beserkers were crushingly powerful, while stealthers were only "good"

In order for WE's to be good, they'll have to have good damage dealing capabilities that aren't possitional and not depend on stealth or poisons.

I see Choppa's and Mauraders being great, Witch Elves have a shot - but a lot of things could go wrong.

WP's are going to be popular at first, but as a class they'll flop. The only good hybrid healer/melee I've seen was Friars - and even they never made it in 8 mans. (no det)

[Oddwin]

DAoC Beserkers were crushingly powerful, while stealthers were only "good"

In order for WE's to be good, they'll have to have good damage dealing capabilities that aren't possitional and not depend on stealth or poisons.

I see Choppa's and Mauraders being great, Witch Elves have a shot - but a lot of things could go wrong.

WP's are going to be popular at first, but as a class they'll flop. The only good hybrid healer/melee I've seen was Friars - and even they never made it in 8 mans. (no det)

are we talking about dps in pve or pvp? in pve i dont see how positional, poisons or stealth would hurt their dps.

in pvp, stealth makes it so that you can get closer to the enemy allowing you to do more dps. and we dont know if any classes can cleanse poisons.

as for WP's. 3 of the 6 healing classes in the game are melee/healing hybrids and the other half are mage/healing hybrids, i dont think melee/healing hybrids are going to be disadvantaged at least not in pve.

[pajamajam]

DAoC Beserkers were crushingly powerful, while stealthers were only "good"



Are you forgetting about ShadowZerkers before the Doublefrost Nerf? They were doing Berserker damage with stealth and Perforate Artery openers, and had poison. They were by far the most powerful stealther class. And would own a berserker toe to toe

[lastdarkness]

if you want to deal damage fast go with the choppa. Just understand that you are likly to die alot especialy when you are berserking. If you want to deal dps and still have a decent survivability go with squig herder or damage focused shaman.
Black orc, sure you can spec to do dps but your much more effective as a tank so your damage output will be lower but your survivability will be greatly increased as well as your teams ability and your zones objectives being achieved (Assuming your a good tank, whos taunting the dpsers and protecting his healers and such.)

If you just wanna go out and kill kill kill definetly play a choppa.

[Under_World]

Are you forgetting about ShadowZerkers before the Doublefrost Nerf? They were doing Berserker damage with stealth and Perforate Artery openers, and had poison. They were by far the most powerful stealther class. And would own a berserker toe to toe

I played a Shadowblade before and after the LA nerfs and Zerkers always did more damage than SBs - in addition to being flagged as a Light Tank which gave them access to cheap purge, det, and Ignore Pain. Things that were basically required for 8 mans... they weren't bogged down by spec problems

You want good damage? You need high LA and Axe - your Stealth? Crit? Poisons? You had to ignore Poisons and Crit (21 for Perf... which was marginally better than Doublefrost) to make sure you didn't die at every Milegate stealth camp you came across.

No no, the SB was a nerfed down zerker with bad RAs and no on demand burst. Infil's were the top assasin from release on.

As far as hybrids go, you can't heal and dps at the same time. Which means when your healing - your worse than pure support healers. When your DPSing, your worse than pure dps classes.

You're always the ugly cousin. When you can DPS your team really doesn't need a healer, and a DPSer would be better. When you need healing, you need real healing - not a hybrid melee/buffer/healers that aren't comitted to staying alive and laying out the feelgood.

And I'm always talking about PvP/RvR

[gorzakka]

I am for one am rolling a black ork due to I like playing the high armor high stam classes, plus i think he will be able to hold his own in pvp.

My alt will most likely be the choppa but i really have grown a very high intrest in the black orc.

[liamrb]

Black orc are going to be the tank class for the greenskins well im sure it can do some good damage the choppa is going to be the DPS.

[linuxnacrot]

As far as hybrids go, you can't heal and dps at the same time. Which means when your healing - your worse than pure support healers. When your DPSing, your worse than pure dps classes.

You're always the ugly cousin. When you can DPS your team really doesn't need a healer, and a DPSer would be better. When you need healing, you need real healing - not a hybrid melee/buffer/healers that aren't comitted to staying alive and laying out the feelgood.

And I'm always talking about PvP/RvR

The bolded is true in other games where there is both DPS/healing classes and pure healing classes. However, in WAR ALL classes will be DPS/healing which boils down the decision on whether you want a melee healer or ranged healer to the composition of your group. Also, who says the WP & DoK will be second rate healers? they could have just as powerful heals as the ranged support.

On topic, i'm gonna have both a BO and a Choppa but the choppa will be my main as its been a while since i've played an MDPS(and because i have a feeling BO's will be afflicted by the "DPS tank" syndrome).

[Under_World]

The bolded is true in other games where there is both DPS/healing classes and pure healing classes. However, in WAR ALL classes will be DPS/healing which boils down the decision on whether you want a melee healer or ranged healer to the composition of your group.

Thats the same thing they say when making every MMO. That the healing classes will be able to do something other than healing, and that was true in WoW and a few other games - but it still doesn't mean hybrids are viable as hybrids.

A character meleeing for below average damage, then stoping DPS to throw out a few weak/unspec'd heals, and a few average buffs tossed in ... the idea that someone wants to play that or party with it just doesn't scan.

Also, who says the WP & DoK will be second rate healers? they could have just as powerful heals as the ranged support.

What I mean is, they aren't going to be good healers unless they invest heavily in their healing / buffing trees and focus on that aspect of their character. The idea that a Feral Druid, Ret Paladin, or Battle Bard, or Nature Druid being able to do damage AND heal just doesn't play out.

On topic, i'm gonna have both a BO and a Choppa but the choppa will be my main as its been a while since i've played an MDPS(and because i have a feeling BO's will be afflicted by the "DPS tank" syndrome).

BOs should be solid with 2H weapons. Main Tanks following a DPS path generally do ok. Heros and Warriors were solid in DAoC and Warriors in WoW are very strong.

[gorzakka]

I would like to see RVR tanking made so I can taunt other players to hit me or atleast make them untarget their current target so as a Black Ork I can RVR with sword and Board and be viable. Just my thought...

[Gemini]

I would like to see RVR tanking made so I can taunt other players to hit me or atleast make them untarget their current target so as a Black Ork I can RVR with sword and Board and be viable. Just my thought...

Mythic dosn't want people to lose control of their character is such a way.

[gorzakka]

Mythic dosn't want people to lose control of their character is such a way.

Then how will a tank be needed in RVR? I do agree loosing control of your character such as in WoW with fear or sheep was very very very annoying. What role will tanks have in RVR?

[Gemini]

Shamelessly copy and pasting an old post again:

Lets say you have a party, and in this party is a Black Orc and a Shaman, among others. They run into another party, with a couple of DPS classes, lets just say an Engineer and a Witch Hunter.

Oh no, they're focus-firing on my Gobbo, whats a Black Orc to do? I can't let the Shaman die! The Black orc pops his guard skill on the Shaman, thus reducing all damage the poor little guy takes, then taunts the Engineer to cut out a large percentage of the damage. And then, as the Shaman is trying to run from the Witch Hunter, the Black Orc uses a snare on the WH to help.

There, in three skills, and is already a great hinderance to his enemies and literally a life-saver to his allies. The DPS classes could choose to ignore the Black Orc, but unlike in PvE, if they do that, the Black Orc is still doing his job, which is protecting his allies. If they choose to target the Black Orc, then he's also doing his job. Either way, his allies are being protected, and thats exactly what a tank is there for, to protect his allies.

[Baron Khaine]

I've settled on Black Orc for now, I wanted to go Choppa, but since it doesn't look like Choppas can wield Great Weapons, and I want to bash stuff, i'll go Black Orc.

[Malis]

I've settled on Black Orc for now, I wanted to go Choppa, but since it doesn't look like Choppas can wield Great Weapons, and I want to bash stuff, i'll go Black Orc.

i expect a full write up as soon as the NDA is lifted :grin:

[Gemini]

I've settled on Black Orc for now, I wanted to go Choppa, but since it doesn't look like Choppas can wield Great Weapons, and I want to bash stuff, i'll go Black Orc.

Glad you have seen the light, Black Orcs are far superior :)

[Zeikfried]

Shamelessly copy and pasting an old post again:

Lets say you have a party, and in this party is a Black Orc and a Shaman, among others. They run into another party, with a couple of DPS classes, lets just say an Engineer and a Witch Hunter.

Oh no, they're focus-firing on my Gobbo, whats a Black Orc to do? I can't let the Shaman die! The Black orc pops his guard skill on the Shaman, thus reducing all damage the poor little guy takes, then taunts the Engineer to cut out a large percentage of the damage. And then, as the Shaman is trying to run from the Witch Hunter, the Black Orc uses a snare on the WH to help.

There, in three skills, and is already a great hinderance to his enemies and literally a life-saver to his allies. The DPS classes could choose to ignore the Black Orc, but unlike in PvE, if they do that, the Black Orc is still doing his job, which is protecting his allies. If they choose to target the Black Orc, then he's also doing his job. Either way, his allies are being protected, and thats exactly what a tank is there for, to protect his allies.

Amen, that is the very reason why I'm leaning more on Black Orc over Choppah. However, I still won't rule out the choppahs, I do like thier style and abilities.
But to me, keeping my allies and myself alive is what matters to me. Can't win battles if you and/or your allies are dead.

[Coldbrand]

Here's to hoping Mythic won't be like a certain other company and cater to whining to allow jobs to branch out of their originally intended purposes making classes whose roles are not being stolen meaningless. Allowing the Black Orc to outdo the Choppa would be a perfect example.

[Suchey]

We know that the Black Orc has a taunt that works in PvP which makes the attackers do a LOT less damage to all targets in the BOs party/(vicinity?). The BO is probably going to be spamming that ability as often as possible along side a bunch of other shouts that increase party toughness, strength, etc.

In short, ignore the BO, his party gets a LOT harder to deal with.

The choppa seems much more "in your face".

I'd say go Choppa if your looking for a more barbaric, swing your weapons, get huge crit numbers, kill everything in your path experience.

Go Black Orc if your looking for a role that is more focused on the overall strategies of your enire party/group.

Either one should be PvP viable, just in different ways.

Of course, we wont know for sure how all of this works until the NDA is lifted or we get a good preview of them. Just my take on the subject based on the info thats out there so far.

[Farao51]

You want a dps class?
By all means, take the dps class!

But acually, black orc is the class to mirror swordmaster, so if your looking for a dps tank(wtf?) and dont want to be a pansy elf in a chain-mail dress, the the black orc is for you

[flipper]

if i had to guess i would say the blorc does more damage per swing but the choppa does more damage overall.

[AtomBomb]

I would like to see RVR tanking made so I can taunt other players to hit me or atleast make them untarget their current target so as a Black Ork I can RVR with sword and Board and be viable. Just my thought...


I agree, in CoH as a Tank I was able to taunt another player and all that happened was that they could not target or attack anyone but me for the duration of the taunt. Quite simple really.

But in the case of playing which is better, I am going to be a Black Orc, and the wife is going to be a Choppa. :D

[Button Basher]

I agree, in CoH as a Tank I was able to taunt another player and all that happened was that they could not target or attack anyone but me for the duration of the taunt. Quite simple really.

But in the case of playing which is better, I am going to be a Black Orc, and the wife is going to be a Choppa. :D

Well they do have taunts but they do not work in that way. The shouts and taunts of a tank lower and upper the stats of the enemy or party. So the longer the fight takes the tougher the BO's party gets and the weaker the oposing enemies.

A taunt that would make you target the BO is pretty cool but then just target your former target again and it would be useless.. A taunt that makes the enemy's next attack go to the BO instead of an ally would be better to implement in the game.

And as u said, a taunt that makes u target the tank and makes u unable to target anyone else is do-able, it would make the BO OP and players do not like this extreme loss of their character (not unlike fears and stuff).

[KaosShaman]

Black Orc's are good for group enviroment alone they dont do as well because there not dps
Choppas though can do group but the can solo people because of the high damage output

[logicalmayhem]

Ok heres a rehash of what the main point are



Balck ork will never be as good DPS as a choppa no matter how he specks(raw damage).
Tanks have a high wepon skill(reduces armor by a %) so will excell at killing other tanks and high armored targets.
Tanks core mechanics will be based around disrupting your enamies damage and protecing your allies.

So in short if you want to be a damage class that thats what you do then choppa is for you, if you want more survivability and group control roll a tank.

[Farao51]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VvCZQifVM28&feature=related

[Konstantin]

Go with whatever class has the "Kick in da Jibbles" Ability, i know i am, for that single reason.