You're Playing an Overpowered Class and Don't Know it!

[Qualum]

This thread is dedicated to those classes and skills that are imbalanced but rarely focused on. I'm going to try and resist going the usual nerf WE path and focus on things that I really think will/should be nerfed in the near(er) future.

1. Salvation/Dark Rites WP/DoK. There is a reason everyone is rolling them. Simply have the best of all worlds (besides ressing) for healing. When one class in an archetype is advised over all others, you better prepare for a little tuning.

2. Witch hunters! This may be surprising since half of the threads out there call for buffs to them. But, I think we can assume Mythic did not intend a ~5 second TTK for WHs (or WEs, but I promised I wouldn't mention them, right?) against squishies. Caveat: An increase in TTK for them might necessitate an increased ability to survive, as well.

3. Black Orcs / Black Guards! The two tanks that trivialize endgame PvE over all others.

4. Engineers. You do too much damage. The damage was a cop out by Mythic because they didn't want to make your CC more effective. Plus, you share the curse of SH in the sense that you have a range buff to your midrange line that your mirror does not have. Caveat: A nerf to the damage will likely come with a boost to CC / group utility.

5. Squig herders. Awesome burst damage, awesome overall damage, great utility. Suddenly the top of the food chain for destruction RDPS, despite being the best at close range. Great ability to kite with Run Away and Run Away was largely ignored when your ability to 1 v 1 anyone was a joke. Caveat: As with engineers you were at the bottom of the food chain for so long that Mythic might take pity on you for awhile.

[Zzulu]

Squiggies and Engineers are fine

bring the other RDPS up to par instead

[Dragonsong73]

What does it mean when 7/22 almost 1/3 of the classes are OP, not counting WE of course. Could it mean that perhaps none of them are OP?

[AshaneFB]

What does it mean when 7/22 almost 1/3 of the classes are OP, not counting WE of course. Could it mean that perhaps none of them are OP?

Logic has absolutely no place on WHA... for shame!

Funny post is funny.

[rain9441]

It means that archmages suck.

[Eisenhart]

3. Black Orcs / Black Guards! The two tanks that trivialize endgame PvE over all others.
Being a tank is trivializing, however, its not like either of the classes can tank without wards. Theyre working as intended when it comes to end game PvE and dependancy on wards.

[Dragonsong73]

Logic has absolutely no place on WHA... for shame!

Funny post is funny.


im just glad im not the only one laughing, man

[Reviresco]

Err how do BOs trivialize end-game PvE?

Seems like when I'm getting smashed in the face for 6K with max wards I'm not trivializing much of anything.

[Arianell]

Black Guards... OP...?

Black Guards = Swordmasters...

So that must mean Swordmasters are OP.

I can't even think of a constructive post for this. I'm just thinking on the BG = OPness, trying to convey a response.

If Mythic nerfed BGs over PvE, further grinding their PvP utility into the ground, I'd be shocked. They've already recieved an under-the-table nerf to their bubble, and Mythic still hasn't fixed their 60s cooldown Hold the Line! along with numerous other things that cripple the Blackguard (AND Swordmaster) PvP.

[Ivanish]

3. Black Orcs / Black Guards! The two tanks that trivialize endgame PvE over all others.


Hehe, you really had to look hard to find something if PvE was the thing you found! :)

Pretty good read generally though, even though OP is just thrown around basically whenever someone dies for some reason. I can't agree with you on all points though, even though the DPS from ranged classes just changed from BW's to the others. ;)

[Rimarlk]

2. Witch hunters! This may be surprising since half of the threads out there call for buffs to them. But, I think we can assume Mythic did not intend a ~5 second TTK for WHs (or WEs, but I promised I wouldn't mention them, right?) against squishies. Caveat: An increase in TTK for them might necessitate an increased ability to survive, as well.



And you got this information where?

[Poodle]

5 sec TTK you say?

well lets see: SA (1,5 sec GCD) PtF (1,5 sec GCD) lets throw in a silence for kickz (1,5 sec GCD) 4 point execution

now lets say the target was a and moved for those 5 sec even then that whole cycle would do a maximum of 2000 MAYBE 3000 hp if the guy is dumb enough to run a maraton. (seriously way out of line here with the damage, you can check wdb and calculate it yourselfs, its not even that much)

if the guy stands still thats around 1500hp

if you die to this, you need to:

A. go level up and stop playing naked
B. stop playing naked
C. l2p


this whole section of this forum is a joke

[frogs99]

Squiggies and Engineers are fine

bring the other RDPS up to par instead

That's what BW's & Sorc's said about themselves and look where they are now..

[Tykero]

1. Salvation/Dark Rites WP/DoK. There is a reason everyone is rolling them. Simply have the best of all worlds (besides ressing) for healing. When one class in an archetype is advised over all others, you better prepare for a little tuning.



Ignorance is fun.

All who claim that healing DoKs are OP should refer to this post. (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3206233&postcount=9)


People are rolling DoKs and WPs because they're the only healer that now meets Mythic's original explanation of how healers would function in this game.

[Qualum]

What does it mean when 7/22 almost 1/3 of the classes are OP, not counting WE of course. Could it mean that perhaps none of them are OP?

I didn't say the tanks were overpowered in general, just as to PvE.

Err how do BOs trivialize end-game PvE?

Seems like when I'm getting smashed in the face for 6K with max wards I'm not trivializing much of anything.

That's because of can't hit me and the blackguard rotation essentially meaning they don't get hit much. Does it mean tanking is super-easy or you don't need wards? No, you still need them, but you're at a pretty big advantage for not having to tank most of the hits. :)

Ignorance is fun.

All who claim that healing DoKs are OP should refer to this post. (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3206233&postcount=9)


People are rolling DoKs and WPs because they're the only healer that now meets Mythic's original explanation of how healers would function in this game.

I read the post and was unconvinced. People aren't rolling DoK or WP because they function how Mythic said they would. They always functioned in that manner. No, majority of people are rolling them to be pure backline healers, not the hybrid or semi-hybrid that would be nice. The argument is that they don't have burst or great cross-group healing. It ignores the fact that you don't really save people outside your group with burst healing too often as any healer. You are limited by AP and cast times moreso than a WP/DoK. On that subject, devour essence is a pretty good tool for keeping someone up in the thick of things. Besides your great healing capacity you're generally going to go unharassed because people don't want to jump a medium-armored class who can universally confuse them.

5 sec TTK you say?

well lets see: SA (1,5 sec GCD) PtF (1,5 sec GCD) lets throw in a silence for kickz (1,5 sec GCD) 4 point execution

Does SA have a GCD following it? That's a horribly inefficient combination for burst damage. In other words:

C. l2p

I got my information from playing my WH, not getting jumped by 'em.


Squiggies and Engineers are fine

bring the other RDPS up to par instead


The game certainly isn't RANGEhammer like it used to be. But I don't really think boosting the other classes is a great idea. BW still do great damage. Magus have great team utility, SW have good damage plus ability to not absolutely suck up-close.

I kind of like the balance of RDPS with the mages being the best burst, magi/engineer being best dot/over time damage, and SW/SH being a good mix but below the other two because their better ability in close combat.

[Tykero]

I read the post and was unconvinced. People aren't rolling DoK or WP because they function how Mythic said they would. They always functioned in that manner. No, majority of people are rolling them to be pure backline healers, not the hybrid or semi-hybrid that would be nice. The argument is that they don't have burst or great cross-group healing. It ignores the fact that you don't really save people outside your group with burst healing too often as any healer. You are limited by AP and cast times moreso than a WP/DoK. On that subject, devour essence is a pretty good tool for keeping someone up in the thick of things. Besides your great healing capacity you're generally going to go unharassed because people don't want to jump a medium-armored class who can universally confuse them.



This post really just describes a lack of understanding of how healing works, what is demanded of healers at 40, and how healers function at 40.

P.S. Devour Essence heals for next to nothing, especially on a DoK spec'd and geared for backline healing. Heck, it's in the Sacrifice tree, not the Dark Rites tree.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that WP/DoK were overpowered. If anything, they're finally on par with the rest of the healers.

[Tryble]

What does it mean when 7/22 almost 1/3 of the classes are OP, not counting WE of course. Could it mean that perhaps none of them are OP?

Count the 'obviously OP' classes and what do you know, just about everyone is OP. Most people don't like to think it, but the classes really are balanced pretty well.

[DreadMage]

Maybe once all the skills/tactics work as tooltip says you can attempt to say DoK is OP.

Theorycrafting is all well and good until you realize that your uber tactic/skill combos are useless because some of the best tactics do nothing.

[Qualum]

I don't need to theorycraft with their skills. I fight against them enough. I'm not singling them out. It's basically the same with WPs.

Perhaps my server is just ahead of the curve of rerolling 'backline' healers? Have you guys not had howling gorge scenarios with either 7 WP/DoK being the only healers? 4 in SP? I have.

Before the change, talented backline WPs could heal a good amount. I snuck into another guild's premade the other day and the WP with me outhealed everyone in the scenario (was a 3 party scen with a number of other healers). So? Oh, the reason I point it out is because the WP didn't even know how to open up the other scenario parties and didn't use other UI Mods.

The thread about DoKs was entirely ignorant. It's first point is that DoKs have no healing tactics. Wtf? They get discipline. They get other healing tactics... do they think other healers are running around with 4 pure (and apparently awesome) healing tactics slotted? I think just about all of them have discipline. AMs and shamans run hurried restore. AMs will run wild healing for AP management. Where is this huge disparity? That poster also neglected the importance of a 1 second group heal over 3 second one, pointing out that they had cooldown attached to it. Yet trying to get a 3 second group heal (very sensitive) is not an easy feat. The reason the hybrid healers have faster cast (and better armor) is because they were envisioned to be frontline healers. Meaning heal, regen essence/fury, then heal.

Further, there are plenty of classes with broken tactics. I don't need to wait for mythic to fix them to claim one thing or another. Especially when fixing those things would likely make the class stronger.

[Poodle]

fraps of you killing a equally geard player in 5 seconds without him moving

hell make it with him moving. Proof or gtfo

[Khaelann]

I read the post and was unconvinced. People aren't rolling DoK or WP because they function how Mythic said they would. They always functioned in that manner. No, majority of people are rolling them to be pure backline healers, not the hybrid or semi-hybrid that would be nice. The argument is that they don't have burst or great cross-group healing. It ignores the fact that you don't really save people outside your group with burst healing too often as any healer. You are limited by AP and cast times moreso than a WP/DoK. On that subject, devour essence is a pretty good tool for keeping someone up in the thick of things. Besides your great healing capacity you're generally going to go unharassed because people don't want to jump a medium-armored class who can universally confuse them.

So show us your WP/DoK then. Also, show us how you played that WP/DoK before all the major changes to them? Cant? Then shut up. They didnt function like this before. Not even close to it. If you wanted to be a backline healer you would gimp yourself down like no other. If you went melee healing you got burned down in an instant. The only use for DoKs back then was as a middle liner running CoC+Bloodthirst and giving his group the best snare in the game. I've been there, done that.

Majority of people are rolling DoKs/WPs because:

-They're being talked about alot on the forums and people are blowing things out of proportion
-The ranged healers are not living up to their name
-Several bugs ingame affecting ranged healers more than the melee healers(casttime bug, huge difference)
-Endgame being big battles -> Single target healing is inefficient
-Mass battles -> Being a robed class means that you die in seconds unless you have an organized force backing you up
-DoK/WP actually work as they were supposed to

The argument is really that we dont have burst healing(other than a melee one) or good cross-group healing at our disposal and that we are the worst ones when it comes to rezzing. Saying that you dont save people outside your group with burst healing is ignorant and something that only applies to mediocre or bad healers, just like saying that group heals dont save people. Being limited in AP can be overcome on many of the healers with various tactics and skills, not to mention AP potions and passive regen. DoKs/WPs are bound with the SE/RF system which requires either a Chalice/Book or active combat to be refilled. Both are limiting the amount of healing you can put out.

Devour Essence is in the Sacrifice Tree yet you're whining about DR DoKs. DR DoKs dont have Devour Essence, sowwy. Oh, and if you had actually played a DoK you'd know Devour Essence is bugged and only heals for 1/4 of what it is supposed to. Even a HoT heals for more. But instead of checking your facts, you go off just like a regular whiner who is basing everything on tooltips and word of mouth.

And being unharassed? Are you kidding me? We're a PRIORITY TARGET to any even half competent enemy due to being:-> Healers<-
Medium armor doesnt really matter much when it gets debuffed 75% by a single IB hit and ignored or reduced even further by the rest of the enemy classes. The same happens to WPs too. Throw in the fun fact that many classes deal some sort of elemental damage and we dont really have that much more mitigation.

This thread is a funny joke as many people already said.

[Questionable Hat]

no ones talking abouthim saying engineers are op.

i had to slap the person next to me when i read that

engins work as intended. i get pwned if people get near me. and i do good dps if people clump up. and just okay single target damage.

dont cry cause im in the back with my boom booms getting drunk.

[NightShade]

So show us your WP/DoK then. Also, show us how you played that WP/DoK before all the major changes to them? Cant? Then shut up. They didnt function like this before. Not even close to it. If you wanted to be a backline healer you would gimp yourself down like no other. If you went melee healing you got burned down in an instant. The only use for DoKs back then was as a middle liner running CoC+Bloodthirst and giving his group the best snare in the game. I've been there, done that.


For truth - My second character was a DoK, pre-buff.. When they were buffed, I was slightly inclined to believe them a bit on the OP side, and maybe they still retain that potential (but really, anyone who plays their class exceptionally well is going to be seen as OP by some), but I don't think it's as problematic as I once thought it to be.

[Qualum]

So show us your WP/DoK then. Also, show us how you played that WP/DoK before all the major changes to them? Cant? Then shut up.

Constructive. ;)

They didnt function like this before. Not even close to it.

You mean before the touted front-line healer had to actually be in combat and not hiding behind a rock the whole game?

Majority of people are rolling DoKs/WPs because:

-They're being talked about alot on the forums and people are blowing things out of proportion

That... or... they're really good. It's not like a forum disease. I'm going to have a friend start playing, they want to play a healer, I don't want them to quit in a couple weeks, I suggest a WP/DoK. The WPs in my guild are like, "You should really try them out," and "I bet Rose would not have quit if she played a WP (Rose being an AM)."

-The ranged healers are not living up to their name

There are really two 'failings' of the other healers. 1) their mechanic sucks and just turns them into a healbot thus not living up to their name; or 2) they just don't heal a lot.

Amusingly, the most recent changes essentially broke the only hybrid (WP/DoK) that was working in the game and turned them into a healbot. As for the other healers not having the same healing capacity: this is true, clearly supported by empirical evidence. However, don't you also think it's odd that it was Mythic's clear intention to tone down healing overall but with the resulting slight toning (as they didn't go as far as they thought they would) suddenly healing numbers actually increased because a new class was the best at it?

-Several bugs ingame affecting ranged healers more than the melee healers(casttime bug, huge difference)

Regardless of the bug, having your mainstay group heal on 1s is just a huge bonus. -- Actually now that I think about it more, the lag doesn't increase with cast time. Meaning it'd actually be beneficial to cast slower, stronger spells than quicker ones because you get that same .7s delay whether it is a 1s or 3s spell. So how does it effect other healers more?

-Endgame being big battles -> Single target healing is inefficient

I agree but you belittle me for saying much the same thing later: Saying that you dont save people outside your group with burst healing is ignorant and something that only applies to mediocre or bad healers, just like saying that group heals dont save people. If the healing 'matters' in the sense that my group is not completely dominating the other team nor vice versa, I can't very well neglect everyone else to 'burst' someone up (my real function just comes in ressing afterwards). It decreses my overall efficiency.

-Mass battles -> Being a robed class means that you die in seconds unless you have an organized force backing you up

Righto, being the only type of healers with a modicum of survivability is a big boost.

You're kind of just proving my point, though. Most efficient healing, best in large scale RvR, best defensively, and the other healers are not as good (not living up to their name). I'm really not trying to say anymore than that.

Devour Essence is in the Sacrifice Tree yet you're whining about DR DoKs...

As it's nine points up SAC, a primarilyy DR DoK could easily get it. I don't have much experience with this skill. And I wasn't like, "omg, lemme check wardb and see all advantages they have." No, it was actually used around a tank in a battle yesterday and it did a fair job of extending his life.

And being unharassed? Are you kidding me? We're a PRIORITY TARGET to any even half competent enemy due to being:-> Healers<-

Speaking from a WHs point of view: I know it is very important to kill you because you are not only a healer you are the BEST healer. But I personally don't have armor debuffs at my leisure, so you're going to go down considerably slower than th other healers. You also get a 10% parry bonus. You also can turn damage into healing meaning not only might I not kill you but I'll be weakened on your backline, too. All that and I really dislike all my work being nullified by a simple universal confusion rend soul combo. :)

Throw in the fun fact that many classes deal some sort of elemental damage and we dont really have that much more mitigation.

Erm, ok, let's say we're in this world where armor doesn't matter. You still heal better under fire because you can simply cast more heals, quicker.

This thread is a funny joke as many people already said.

I do find it a bit amusing bringing more than the WE defenders out of the woodworks. :)

fraps of you killing a equally geard player in 5 seconds without him moving

hell make it with him moving. Proof or gtfo

fraps of you not killing an equally geared player in 5 seconds with him moving. Hell make it without him moving. Proof or gtfo MY thread, nubbin. :) (fair warning: if you do fraps it I either will not watch it because my attention span lasts about 3 seconds; or if I am somehow inclined to watch it, it will be only for the reason of explaining to you how the opponent was 'uber weaksauce' and how the circumstances were 'exceptional' meaning does not happen every single time. And then you'd feel silly, because I learned a lot about the ancient karate style of L2P from WE nerf threads.)

dont cry cause im in the back with my boom booms getting drunk.

I think the funniest thread ever is the "Real Reason Why Engineers > Magus" in the engineer thread (not sure that's the exact name but you'll find it with that reference). The second funniest thread and theme is REPEL BLASPHEMY. I <3 my classes yet feel we have a nerf coming on.

[Byebyedestrozerg]

4. Engineers. You do too much damage. The damage was a cop out by Mythic because they didn't want to make your CC more effective. Plus, you share the curse of SH in the sense that you have a range buff to your midrange line that your mirror does not have. Caveat: A nerf to the damage will likely come with a boost to CC / group utility.



Get off the badwagon started by a few ill informed individuals.

Too much damage? The engineer is on a par with other dps (with one or two notable exceptions that by far exceed the engineer), but has far less burst dps than a BW or sorceror.

It has far far less burst dps than a WE. A WE can kill in the same time it takes the engineer to fire off all their dots.

Don't use scenario tables to measure balance. There are so many holes in that rationale its laughable. If we take your logic that engineers do too much damage, and then realise the WEs do far more you've just called for a WE nerf yourself.

[Khaelann]

Constructive. ;) More than yours.


You mean before the touted front-line healer had to actually be in combat and not hiding behind a rock the whole game?

A DoK/WP hiding behind a rock with a Chalice/Book in a hand is not doing even half of what it can. Sorry, but huge numbers in a scenario does not mean that a class is doing well or being played well. Also, before the changes to Sac/Grace, working as a front-line healer was a suicide mission against all but PuGs and was nigh impossible in large scale fights, as it is even now. Melee healers that have gone full melee are forced to flanking moves and skirmishing because they still lack the survivability needed in the front. Be that CC immunities or overall damage mitigation.


That... or... they're really good. It's not like a forum disease. I'm going to have a friend start playing, they want to play a healer, I don't want them to quit in a couple weeks, I suggest a WP/DoK. The WPs in my guild are like, "You should really try them out," and "I bet Rose would not have quit if she played a WP (Rose being an AM)."

That goodness is a sum of many facts, most of them having to do with other classes not functioning as they should. Just because you have several broken classes does not mean that one would be OP. It means that they need to fix the broken classes so that we can compare them on an equal footing. Which you're not doing at all.


There are really two 'failings' of the other healers. 1) their mechanic sucks and just turns them into a healbot thus not living up to their name; or 2) they just don't heal a lot.

They dont heal alot? And who decides this? Every Shaman and Zealot in my guild is needed and useful. They work very well with our DoKs, providing spot healing, important buffs and adding their own AoE healing into the mix. And they are our best rezzers. They're as much needed as are DoKs.

Amusingly, the most recent changes essentially broke the only hybrid (WP/DoK) that was working in the game and turned them into a healbot. As for the other healers not having the same healing capacity: this is true, clearly supported by empirical evidence. However, don't you also think it's odd that it was Mythic's clear intention to tone down healing overall but with the resulting slight toning (as they didn't go as far as they thought they would) suddenly healing numbers actually increased because a new class was the best at it?

Amusingly, you're wrong in every way. The changes made melee healing more viable than it used to be before, which is apparent by the amount of Grace/Sacrifice specced WPs and DoKs posting on these forums, their own class forums and being ingame. DR/Salv are actually now the less played ones but they too can now be played as dedicated healers. As to other healers not having the same healing capacity: How do you measure this? By burst? By HPS in the best case scenario? By single target or group healing or perhaps cross-group healing? You cannot just blabber on and on about things like these without actually specifying what you mean and then backing it up.

Mythics intention was not to tone down healing, they were thinking of reducing HoT effects but that one was pulled out. Instead they fixed a bug, simple as that. Just like Detonate was receiving more boost from Int than it was supposed to, so were the Heal+HoT core heals of all six healers. They fixed the coefficient, that is all there is to it. At the same time, they actually increased the healing by increasing both Grace and Sacrifice skill dmg, turning many of the int based skills into STR based on WPs and DoKs and changed the % on two of our basic melee heals.


Regardless of the bug, having your mainstay group heal on 1s is just a huge bonus. -- Actually now that I think about it more, the lag doesn't increase with cast time. Meaning it'd actually be beneficial to cast slower, stronger spells than quicker ones because you get that same .7s delay whether it is a 1s or 3s spell. So how does it effect other healers more?

It affects other healers more as their heals are more sensitive and the bug means that they will be stuck in one place even longer than normally. Mobility is a large part of surviviability for healers and thus it matters more for the other healers.


Righto, being the only type of healers with a modicum of survivability is a big boost.

RPs have alot of survivability if built around it.


You're kind of just proving my point, though. Most efficient healing, best in large scale RvR, best defensively, and the other healers are not as good (not living up to their name). I'm really not trying to say anymore than that.

Most efficient healing only when under spread AoE damage. The other healers are better for rezzing, better in burst healing a single target and offer some of the best buffs in the game. Also, them not living up to their name does not mean that we're OP. It means that they are broken. If they were working as intended and we would still put them to shame in every aspect of the game, then we'd be OP. But when you compare a working class to a class that is in need of a total revamp, I cant do anything but smile and think you're jealous or you've gotten your handed to you a few too many times by one of the melee healers.


As it's nine points up SAC, a primarilyy DR DoK could easily get it. I don't have much experience with this skill. And I wasn't like, "omg, lemme check wardb and see all advantages they have." No, it was actually used around a tank in a battle yesterday and it did a fair job of extending his life.

As it is nine points up in Sac, primarily DR DoKs wont have it since they will be spending 19 or 20 points in DR. Unless you're talking about RR80 players ofc :) As to extending a tanks life, how do you know it was DE and not a morale 1 heal or KE spam? That is right, you dont know but you're just claiming that one skill did it because it actually put an icon on the tank.

What you're talking about would be DR/Sac or Sac/DR, not primarily DR :)


Speaking from a WHs point of view: I know it is very important to kill you because you are not only a healer you are the BEST healer. But I personally don't have armor debuffs at my leisure, so you're going to go down considerably slower than th other healers. You also get a 10% parry bonus. You also can turn damage into healing meaning not only might I not kill you but I'll be weakened on your backline, too. All that and I really dislike all my work being nullified by a simple universal confusion rend soul combo. :)

No, as a WH you can just ignore armor. As to the parry bonus, didnt you just say we're using a chalice? So which is it, a parry bonus(needs 2 swords equipped) or a Chalice(gives us that SE regen you are partially complaining about)? Cant have both, sowwy. Negating your damage with ours? Sure if we're actually Sac DoKs but then we wouldnt be at the backlines. See, DR DoKs stack Willpower, not STR so our melee heals are lackluster. More so, we dont have high WS either so our armor penetration sucks and you as a high STR class will parry many of our attacks. And you even have many skills that help you in just that. You can also disarm and silence us :)

Basically, you're complaining about a full DR/full Sac DoK merged into one and having the best of both worlds. Yeah, a DoK with 1k STR and Willpower would be a beast, especially when he would be able to wield two swords and a chalice at the same time. Sadly, that is impossible at the moment.

[GentleHell]

Archmage needs a buff.

WH need to be buffed up to WE dps. ( Or WE need a nerf, not the prefered option)


It really is that simple, and I worry for anyone who cant see that.

[Khaelann]

Archmage needs a buff.

AMs, RPs, Shammies and Zealots need an overhaul, not a buff. Just buffing some of their abilities wont change the fact that they're mostly boring healbots. They need their mechanics made more viable and fun while at the same time making them perform better in small scale and large scale fights.

[Byebyedestrozerg]

No I think their need to remain healing focused.

One of the things mythic got right was to reward healers for healing.

One of the things blizzard got dramatically wrong was to make healers and tanks dps classes too.

[LeviathanXIII]

How is it that two out of three tanks being capable of tanking endgame content is overpowered? Give me a break.

Do chosens perhaps need a little buff to their avoidance to make them a better endgame tank? I'll buy that.

But somehow I'm not buying the "nerf for PvE" nonsense. It's hardly trivial to endgame tank, the majority of players who roll tanks don't main tank worth a damn.

[GrumpyJester]

Buff Archmage/Shaman, keep Runepriest/Zealot roughly the same, small nerf to Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest.

DoKs/WPs are a bit too much right now.

[Leyt]

Buff Archmage/Shaman, keep Runepriest/Zealot roughly the same, small nerf to Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest.

DoKs/WPs are a bit too much right now.

Do Shaman really need buffing? On my WL, I encountered one solo and he somehow managed to stay alive and even kill me. The damage was ridiculous, so I searched a little bit for a RDPS, but found none. In that scenario, I topped the damage charts, solo killed a few, made a good number of killing blows, and possibly topped all of those. I didn't check. Plus, I do sometimes struggle with Shaman. (I'm only in T2 on my WL, by the way)

I don't play Destro anymore, so I don't know if AM are the same, but I don't think so from what I've heard.

Iunno.

[Khaelann]

Do Shaman really need buffing? On my WL, I encountered one solo and he somehow managed to stay alive and even kill me. The damage was ridiculous, so I searched a little bit for a RDPS, but found none. In that scenario, I topped the damage charts, solo killed a few, made a good number of killing blows, and possibly topped all of those. I didn't check. Plus, I do sometimes struggle with Shaman. (I'm only in T2 on my WL, by the way)

I don't play Destro anymore, so I don't know if AM are the same, but I don't think so from what I've heard.

Iunno.

Pretty much all the discussion here is about level 40s. And yes, Shamans do need a buff just like the other ranged healers do. But a buff that also makes their mechanics worthwhile and does not turn them into total healbots.

[Rozerick]

I don't need to theorycraft with their skills. I fight against them enough. I'm not singling them out. It's basically the same with WPs.

Perhaps my server is just ahead of the curve of rerolling 'backline' healers? Have you guys not had howling gorge scenarios with either 7 WP/DoK being the only healers? 4 in SP? I have.

Before the change, talented backline WPs could heal a good amount. I snuck into another guild's premade the other day and the WP with me outhealed everyone in the scenario (was a 3 party scen with a number of other healers). So? Oh, the reason I point it out is because the WP didn't even know how to open up the other scenario parties and didn't use other UI Mods.

The thread about DoKs was entirely ignorant. It's first point is that DoKs have no healing tactics. Wtf? They get discipline. They get other healing tactics... do they think other healers are running around with 4 pure (and apparently awesome) healing tactics slotted? I think just about all of them have discipline. AMs and shamans run hurried restore. AMs will run wild healing for AP management. Where is this huge disparity? That poster also neglected the importance of a 1 second group heal over 3 second one, pointing out that they had cooldown attached to it. Yet trying to get a 3 second group heal (very sensitive) is not an easy feat. The reason the hybrid healers have faster cast (and better armor) is because they were envisioned to be frontline healers. Meaning heal, regen essence/fury, then heal.

Further, there are plenty of classes with broken tactics. I don't need to wait for mythic to fix them to claim one thing or another. Especially when fixing those things would likely make the class stronger.

So what you're saying is, they finally captured what a healer should be in this game, and you want to claim them OP'ed?

Do you know why every single WP switched into a blackline healer? Because of the CC in tier 4, what's the point of going out and meleeing when you're just going to be frozen in place the whole time?

WP's and DoK's are not the best healers, an RP can still keep everyone alive a lot better then us, stop looking at scenario numbers then forming an opinion on a class.

Witch Hunters, BG's, Sqiuggys, Engineers? With that logic, every class is OP'ed in some way.

Seriously though, this thread is pretty pointless.

[sbarra1x]

There is such an incredible amount of misinformation flying around in this thread.

For starters the OP clearly doesn’t understand very much at all about the game mechanics, we can tell this merely by scanning through his posts, thus his ideas on the state of the game itself and the specific balance between the classes in question are practically worthless and totally void.

I know the OP is merely expressing his opinion, and we are supposed to humour him because apparently someone’s personal opinion can be neither right nor wrong, but if I were to articulate that in my personal opinion Elephants are actually giant mutated daffodils from the planet Saturn, would I be wrong? Would you tell me that I am simply making a ludicrous statement, or would you say that I cannot possibly be wrong because its just my point of view? I think the very answer to this question itself is an incontrovertible testament to the competence of this thread, and dare I say the competence of the OP.

Qualum, if I may ask, what exactly is the intended purpose of this thread?
Is it just a test to see how far you can push your ignorance (no offence, honest observation, not an insult) before somebody spends the time of day to quote on every single mistake that you have made and correct each one? Or is there actually a logical reason for its existence, hidden away somewhere within the depths of time perhaps? Please tell.

[Qualum]

I think my point was in the very beginning of the thread. Namely, these are things that should/or likely will be addressed. I suppose it originated with the idea that I know quite a few people who rolled BW and SORC and either a) entirely quit the game after the nerf or b) completely abandoned them.

Do you not agree on a particular point? Do you think that all classes are currently balanced? Did you have a point in your thread besides trying to belittle me or my competence in a game?

So far no response has even made a faintest attempt to refute the points. People of the classes I 'called out' say, "No, you're wrong, L2P." The only discussions that have gone into detail have proven that my initial statements were right.

[Gunba]

5. Squig herders. Awesome burst damage, awesome overall damage, great utility. Suddenly the top of the food chain for destruction RDPS, despite being the best at close range. Great ability to kite with Run Away and Run Away was largely ignored when your ability to 1 v 1 anyone was a joke. Caveat: As with engineers you were at the bottom of the food chain for so long that Mythic might take pity on you for awhile.

Squig herders have great overall damage vs any non-tank archetype, sure. There is a few reasons why this is acceptable, however. We have virtually no AoE utility (except for our lv4 morale), Deadzones (min. range of 5ft on our ranged attacks) that let any well played Melee class walk all over us and our Squig doesn't scale with our +stats and becomes redundant turning the class into a green plink spamming midget.

We are the best RDPS class at Melee (which is like being the smartest kid in Special Education) if you spec into Melee and lose all actual RDPS utility and become a gimp version of an AoE Marauder that lacks any sort of fetch mechanic or anti-CC. Hybrid specs are not viable as they are with SW because of the transition periods between Melee (Squig Armor) and RDPS (No Squig Armor) being absolutely huge (60s cooldown on armor, 3s cast time, cannot move while casting). What this essentially means is that you're either an MDPS SH or an RDPS SH, and speccing MDPS is just going to get you killed a lot. I would argue that, when actually specced RDPS (which 95% of Squig Herders are), we have the worst close-range utility out of all of the RDPS classes.

Run Away! is very buggy in it's current incarnation (if we have knockback immunity it doesn't work, if we use it on uneven geometry it doesn't work, etc etc typical crap you'd expect from a low-height knockback skill) and doesn't actually send you very far. Not only that, but it requires a Squig out, and all Squigs do atm is cut into your DPS and give you some utility (disarms, knockback) that are about a 50/50 chance of actually working. Run Away! isn't entirely bad, however, just not really going to win many fights and certainly isn't a remarkable or even notable ability.

What I will agree on, however, is that Squig Herders are the most effective RDPS on single targets, and I would say that we are balanced. If played well we outshine casters (including Engineers who do Corporeal damage and not Physical) sometimes because of how extreme resists are at the moment, but not many people actually stack 75% resists so this isn't a consistent problem, and it definitely has nothing to do with SH being OP. I would also like to point out that the reason we do better damage than SW is because all of our abilities are slow, clunky and hard to use. We can't stance-dance or hybrid melee/RDPS like you guys can and we lose a lot of utility in this respect. Our niche in the game is single target RDPS, and that's all there is to it.

[Rozerick]

I think my point was in the very beginning of the thread. Namely, these are things that should/or likely will be addressed. I suppose it originated with the idea that I know quite a few people who rolled BW and SORC and either a) entirely quit the game after the nerf or b) completely abandoned them.

Do you not agree on a particular point? Do you think that all classes are currently balanced? Did you have a point in your thread besides trying to belittle me or my competence in a game?

So far no response has even made a faintest attempt to refute the points. People of the classes I 'called out' say, "No, you're wrong, L2P." The only discussions that have gone into detail have proven that my initial statements were right.

We don't need to refute anything, you have brung no evidence to the table that any of the classes mentioned are actually OP. For all you know that could be working as intended. All because a class is gimp doesn't mean the class next to him is OP'ed.

[chemicalpoet]

Buff Archmage/Shaman, keep Runepriest/Zealot roughly the same, small nerf to Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest.

DoKs/WPs are a bit too much right now.

Have you seen the RP or zealot talent ladders? I'm guessing not. . .

[Awe]

Nerfs I can see coming :-

Engineer and Magus aoe. It can't stay the way it is.
DoK + WP Chalices/Books. They are just so easy it's unreal.
The 10% free parry to dual weilders. Because it's not fair that destruction get 3 classes and order only got 1.
WE Carnage tree, perhaps moving some abilities to other trees. Because there are too many good abilities in Carnage.

[Farshatok]

1. Salvation/Dark Rites WP/DoK. There is a reason everyone is rolling them. Simply have the best of all worlds (besides ressing) for healing. When one class in an archetype is advised over all others, you better prepare for a little tuning.

2. Witch hunters! This may be surprising since half of the threads out there call for buffs to them. But, I think we can assume Mythic did not intend a ~5 second TTK for WHs (or WEs, but I promised I wouldn't mention them, right?) against squishies. Caveat: An increase in TTK for them might necessitate an increased ability to survive, as well.

3. Black Orcs / Black Guards! The two tanks that trivialize endgame PvE over all others.

4. Engineers. You do too much damage. The damage was a cop out by Mythic because they didn't want to make your CC more effective. Plus, you share the curse of SH in the sense that you have a range buff to your midrange line that your mirror does not have. Caveat: A nerf to the damage will likely come with a boost to CC / group utility.

5. Squig herders. Awesome burst damage, awesome overall damage, great utility. Suddenly the top of the food chain for destruction RDPS, despite being the best at close range. Great ability to kite with Run Away and Run Away was largely ignored when your ability to 1 v 1 anyone was a joke. Caveat: As with engineers you were at the bottom of the food chain for so long that Mythic might take pity on you for awhile.

1. So, an archetype will be nerfed because everyone is rolling them? It's been said above, the other healers are a little UP, they got these classes right
2. Witch Hunters might actually get some tweaks that will make the class even better, but as I don't see any problems with them. They harass the enemy backline. With resists being fixed they're going to be the class that is going to be exponential for taking out Sorcs. No nerf needed
3. Even if they did (which they don't), this is a PvP game. Classes won't be nerfed based on a dungeon
4. They do too much damage... Um...compared to what? Has someone put an Engi in a bubble and test his damage? When they do top the charts, it's because they're lower priority than BW and they hide easier.
5. I have no idea about them, have never seen any of them do anything resembling overpowerdness.

The whole idea about starting a thread here is bringing data and evidence. You brought opinions, you'll get opinions.


The 10% free parry to dual weilders. Because it's not fair that destruction get 3 classes and order only got 1.

It's funny that the bonus was always there (tests done before and after the patch), it just didn't show in the tooltip. However, nobody complained before :) And Mythic said they'll rework 2-handers too, so it's a non-issue.

[Maelleus]

3. Even if they did (which they don't), this is a PvP game. Classes won't be nerfed based on a dungeon


Must have slipped their mind when they nerfed RPs and Chosen for "trivializing" PvE.

[Ayamo]

So what you're saying is, they finally captured what a healer should be in this game, and you want to claim them OP'ed?

Do you know why every single WP switched into a blackline healer? Because of the CC in tier 4, what's the point of going out and meleeing when you're just going to be frozen in place the whole time?

WP's and DoK's are not the best healers, an RP can still keep everyone alive a lot better then us, stop looking at scenario numbers then forming an opinion on a class.




Amen, end of wp/dok dicussion, this sums it up 100%

[sbarra1x]

I think my point was in the very beginning of the thread. Namely, these are things that should/or likely will be addressed. I suppose it originated with the idea that I know quite a few people who rolled BW and SORC and either a) entirely quit the game after the nerf or b) completely abandoned them.
Do you not agree on a particular point? Do you think that all classes are currently balanced?

To answer your question, no, I do not agree with any of the points that you have been attempting to make.

I personally do not think that any classes are overpowered in this game, probably because I actually understand the games mechanics and how the classes are supposed to work in conjunction with each other more so than the people that come to whine on the forums.

Did you have a point in your thread besides trying to belittle me or my competence in a game?

No.

The point of my thread was exactly that; to belittle you and/or your competence when it comes to understanding what you are talking about.

Why? Generally because I find threads like this very petty and rather pointless, principally because much like this one they are heaving with misinformation and thus they really serve no purpose what so ever other than to arouse a dispute over what is fundamentally void and flawed.

So far no response has even made a faintest attempt to refute the points. People of the classes I 'called out' say, "No, you're wrong, L2P."

This is because none of your posts deserve any constructive input or any real form of debate.
I say this mainly because of the fact that most of the things being stated by yourself are emphatically incorrect and ill-informed. Yes we could attempt to correct your errors and perhaps educate you to some degree, but judging by former attempts to do so I feel that the effort would most likely be in vain.

The only discussions that have gone into detail have proven that my initial statements were right

Where exactly did you get this from?
From what I have read “the only discussions that have gone into detail” have more so corrected your “initial statements” (I personally find the term Errors to be more fitting) further if anything.

If I actually thought that there were to be any reasoning for it I would indeed correct each and every mistake that you have made and correct them with some in-depth criticism, but as it stands with the current state of this thread I honestly see no point in it. However you can change this.
Take the time to make some constructive, thought provoking posts including facts and actual evidence to back up your frankly ludicrous claims.

Surely if you are seeking for people to intelligently refute your points then at the very least you would attempt make even the vaguest endeavour to create a thread that actually has some intelligent points to debate.

[Aryl]

I would also like to point out that the reason we do better damage than SW is because all of our abilities are slow, clunky and hard to use. We can't stance-dance or hybrid melee/RDPS like you guys can and we lose a lot of utility in this respect. Our niche in the game is single target RDPS, and that's all there is to it.

everything you've said before this i agree with. just to clear things up though: while we can change stances instantly (with a 5 second cd) our key ranged abilities actually take twice as long to cast as yours. also, because of the tactics required to make assault a viable spec (expert skirmisher and charge forth) we give up our ability to be effective as ranged dps. the the opposite occurs when we tactic for ranged damage. so while our stance changing mechanic is a little easier than SH's, we are not able to be effective rdps and mdps at the same time.

[DreadMage]

Nerfs I can see coming :-

Engineer and Magus aoe. It can't stay the way it is.
If anything, this is going the other way. +damage and +utility to Magus/Engi. Try playing one before saying their pathetic AoE needs nerfing.
DoK + WP Chalices/Books. They are just so easy it's unreal.
Not happening. Mythic spent time to add this, not going to remove this. Read the plethora of posts in this thread describing why Books/Chalice +RF/SE regen is a mandatory change to the melee healers.
The 10% free parry to dual weilders. Because it's not fair that destruction get 3 classes and order only got 1.
Remove all 2H weapons from Order players and give them all dual-wield without parry bonus then. Not fair that there are more 2H using Order careers which means better burst damage. :rolleyes: Once a WP realizes how much dual-wielding sucks in the damage department, they'll want their big hammers back.
WE Carnage tree, perhaps moving some abilities to other trees. Because there are too many good abilities in Carnage.
No comment on this one.


Not likely to happen

[Qualum]

1. So, an archetype will be nerfed because everyone is rolling them? It's been said above, the other healers are a little UP, they got these classes right

Everyone generally rolls a class they perceive to be the strongest. You can say what you want about the ignorance of the masses but do you ever see a mass-movement of people re-rolling classes perceived to be the weakest?

In regards to the other classes being underpowered: well, that just proves the point. You can really only make comparisons with the other classes. If every other healer is underpowered, the one that isn't is probably overpowered. Now, you can say hey, the other healers should just be brought up! But it's not so easy as that. And despite people wanting to progress through 'buffs' as opposed to 'nerfs', it is just harder to do.

I certainly wouldn't mind healing being given a boost in the game. Certainly my healer would like it, but all of the other characters I play enjoy being healed, too. When there's only one healer in a SP (or none) the fight is just not going to be as fun because I will be running back more. That being said, heales are already the most pivotal roll in a battle and I don't think Mythic wants to mak them more important.

2. Witch Hunters might actually get some tweaks that will make the class even better, but as I don't see any problems with them.

In the changes, WHs got a huge boost with reduced root effectiveness and they also got an increase to their bullet damage and a decrease in their survivability. I could see them going the other way. I killed a sorc in 4 seconds in SP yesterday. I doubt they enjoyed it. Though, if they sneezed when I attacked they missed the fight, so I gues it might not have been as bad as I thought. :)

3. Even if they did (which they don't), this is a PvP game. Classes won't be nerfed based on a dungeon

As people have already said, they've done this. The sad reality is PvE is very important in this game. Plus, can't hit me is of little pvp use outside tank walls. I'm not really advocating a nerf to them overall.


The whole idea about starting a thread here is bringing data and evidence. You brought opinions, you'll get opinions.

I don't mind opinions. Just wanted to insert some other classes into the discussion. I'm not going to fraps battles as my computer would probably blow a gasket. I have screenshots of fights but when has that ever ended up in useful conversation? I have screenshots of pretty crazy ending scenario charts but then people say don't look at scenario numbers. So what is good evidence and good data? People don't want ending scenario numbers, they will dissect a combat log until it shows them what they want, which leaves us theorycrafting.

You're so ignorant. everything is balanced. you'r so ignorant.

You are in the very small minority (~2%?) that believes all classes are balanced. You're entitled to your opinion. But seeing as how fewer people agree with your premises than mine you probably need more explaining.

Squig herders have great overall damage vs any non-tank archetype, sure. There is a few reasons why this is acceptable, however. We have virtually no AoE utility (except for our lv4 morale), Deadzones (min. range of 5ft on our ranged attacks) that let any well played Melee class walk all over us and our Squig doesn't scale with our +stats and becomes redundant turning the class into a green plink spamming midget

Your post makes a good bit of sense. I know the better SWs on my server have gone skirmish for better aoe/utility/1 v 1 capacity. Your quick shootin line looks even better because of your range increase to it. The SHs on my server I fear the most run it. That and shrapnel arrow and your aoe damage ain't bad.

Big shooting is effective, but kind of a one plink wonder (and then a r4 wonder).

I know some SHs prefer running without a squig but I'll attest to the fact that nothing is more annoying than a squig interrupting my spells. Squigs are about as annoying as defensive tanks to my healer (not that they're as effective but people don't tend to CC squigs and so they go unharassed while harassing me).

[Sooda]

Magus have great team utility...

Do go into detail on that one please, point out what makes magus an utility class. And define utility while you're at it.

[Gobbosmasher]

I'm really getting sick of the word overpowered.

Ironbreaker - Not the strongest tank, designed to CC and change the flow of RvR.
Engineer - Solid RDPS, turrets ignoring LoS is an issue that makes them too strong and needs to be fixed.
Runepriest - Unfortunately, they do not have the healing ability of Warrior Priests. However, they have decent survivability and can heal FF well.
KotBS - Working as intended, commands and whatnot. Hard to bring down with defense spec.
Bright Wizard - Decently designed class, however, resists are just making them worthless.
Witch Hunter - Working fine as far as I'm concerned. Could use a bit more damage for bringing targets down alone.
Warrior Priest - Completely fine.
Swordmaster - I don't see many around, so I can't really comment.
White Lion - Working well, a healers worst nightmare.
Shadow Warrior - A difficult class to play, very good if played well.
Archmage - They can res fast. Oh, and....err....they're probably good at something else, too.

Other healers should be brought up to the standard of the Warrior Priest, and not nerf the Warrior Priest. Healers need buffs, not all healers to be equally useless.

[Korhadril]

Way I see it, talking about balance is moot till all the bugged abilities and tactics get fixed (for the good and the bad, and this is shooting myself on the foot for some and a saving grace for others). Untill all classes are not functioning as initially expected (SM and BO lossing their position for kicks, animation lags, abilities doing more than stated, etc), a real process of balancing cannot be started, all they will be is bandaids that might need to be changed again in short time.

[DreadMage]

Way I see it, talking about balance is moot till all the bugged abilities and tactics get fixed (for the good and the bad, and this is shooting myself on the foot for some and a saving grace for others). Untill all classes are not functioning as initially expected (SM and BO lossing their position for kicks, animation lags, abilities doing more than stated, etc), a real process of balancing cannot be started, all they will be is bandaids that might need to be changed again in short time.

Yep. People look at the tooltip and say "OMFG SKILL X IS SOOOO OP NERF PLEASE!" when in reality Skill X is bugged and deals 50% of stated damage, or better yet gives your opponent +25% healing instead of -25% healing :rolleyes:

[Awe]

Not likely to happen

Your a DoK, of course you don't want to believe your class will be nerfed.

Chalices and Books *will* be nerfed, that is an absolute guarantee. Just because they buffed it last patch doesn't mean they didn't over do it. They did, and *everyone* knows it.

[DreadMage]

Your a DoK, of course you don't want to believe your class will be nerfed.

Chalices and Books *will* be nerfed, that is an absolute guarantee. Just because they buffed it last patch doesn't mean they didn't over do it. They did, and *everyone* knows it.

I change my profile according to what class I currently play the most.

Besides a R27 DoK I also have a R40 Marauder and a R31 Magus. I'm not using some sort of bias because I play a Disciple as an second main.

The fact that you seem so bitter, and that your "nerf" list was targeted at classes that are either still broken (Magus, Engi), or ones that actually work as they should (DoK, WP) shows you no little about this game.

I admit, you were right. Chalices and Books will be nerfed next patch. The +DPS bonus on them, along with all other offhand items like shields will be removed entirely, meaning all the damage Book/Chalice/Shield users do will drop quite heavily. That there is a huge nerf to the offhand items.

Saying that the regen on these items is somehow OP shows how little you know about the class and how it works.

PS. Stop masquerading as a WP player, since I can't take you seriously. No DoK/WP past T1 would want to sever their life-line. If you feel so strongly about the Chalice/Book, go ahead and play 2H in R40 endgame. Enjoy being CC'd to death and being useless in the process while other WP hang back and actually do something useful.

[Awe]

Wow dreadmage, you sure are full of it. Or maybe just clueless.

Engi and magus aoe is weak is it? Jeez I must just have imagined all those 150k+250k damage totals I'm seeing in T3 then.

And those 400-500k DoK/WP heal totals that suddenly appeared after the RF chalice/tome regen? Let me guess, everyone just got skilled and the doubling of healing was the result of that, right?

Get real.

[Khaelann]

Wow dreadmage, you sure are full of it. Or maybe just clueless.

Engi and magus aoe is weak is it? Jeez I must just have imagined all those 150k+250k damage totals I'm seeing in T3 then.

And those 400-500k DoK/WP heal totals that suddenly appeared after the RF chalice/tome regen? Let me guess, everyone just got skilled and the doubling of healing was the result of that, right?

Get real.

You're the clueless one if you're basing class balance and potential on scenario numbers.

Get real.

[Awe]

You're the clueless one if you're basing class balance and potential on scenario numbers.

Get real.

If you don't know you're overpowered as a DoK it's simply because you are a terrible player.

[Grayle]

Black Guards... OP...?

Black Guards = Swordmasters...

So that must mean Swordmasters are OP.
I don't know if anyone's commented on this one before, but anyway: BGs are the mirror for IBs, not Swordmasters. Black Orcs are their mirror.

[DreadMage]

Wow dreadmage, you sure are full of it. Or maybe just clueless.

Engi and magus aoe is weak is it? Jeez I must just have imagined all those 150k+250k damage totals I'm seeing in T3 then.

And those 400-500k DoK/WP heal totals that suddenly appeared after the RF chalice/tome regen? Let me guess, everyone just got skilled and the doubling of healing was the result of that, right?

Get real.

Gotta love the ignorant players who judge a class by what they see on a scenario scoreboard. Get a clue buddy. Just because the Magus was hitting 10 people for 100 damage a tic with his DoTs for the entire 15 minute round does not mean the class is any good. Sustained damage is trash in a game where everything revolves around spike damage. Ya, that Magus spent the entire game DoTing everything that moves, and all that damage is covered by a single AoE group heal. Rinse, repeat, and you get a Magus with 300,000 damage and 0 kills and a WP with 300,000 healing. Ya, both classes are OP, nerf please. :roll:

As far as healing numbers go, read what I said above. Useless AoE damage coupled with mediocre AoE healing means the damage gets cancelled out by the healing, and no one dies. Do this for 15 minutes and you get inflated numbers which mean nothing. Stop using scenario scoreboards.

[Awe]

Gotta love the ignorant players who judge a class by what they see on a scenario scoreboard. Get a clue buddy. Just because the Magus was hitting 10 people for 100 damage a tic with his DoTs for the entire 15 minute round does not mean the class is any good. Sustain damage is trash in a game where everything revolves around spike damage. Ya, that Magus spend the entire game DoTing everything that moves, and all that damage is covered by a single AoE group heal. Rinse, repeat, and you get a Magus with 300,000 damage and 0 kills and a WP with 300,000 healing. Ya, both classes are OP, nerf please. :roll:

As far as healing numbers go, read what I said above. Useless AoE damage coupled with mediocre AoE healing means the damage gets cancelled out by the healing, and no one dies. Do this for 15 minutes and you get inflated numbers which mean nothing. Stop using scenario scoreboards.


Alternatively, there aren't a slew of ezmode aoe healers (ie DoKs/wp's) around and that aoe damage obliterates the opposition. Granted this is rare as the average number of DoK's/WP's per scenario is ~3-4 these days. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

[Rozerick]

Wow dreadmage, you sure are full of it. Or maybe just clueless.

Engi and magus aoe is weak is it? Jeez I must just have imagined all those 150k+250k damage totals I'm seeing in T3 then.

And those 400-500k DoK/WP heal totals that suddenly appeared after the RF chalice/tome regen? Let me guess, everyone just got skilled and the doubling of healing was the result of that, right?

Get real.

Actually, you see a lot more healers because of the CC bugs in tier 4 at the moment. Yes, we can heal better now, that's pretty obvious, but we could heal pretty well before. The reason they did that to books and chalices is because there was no point to use them otherwise.

If they got rid of the RF generation on the books/chalices, everyone would go back to two handed and dual wield. I guess they could tone it down, but getting rid of the RF generation completely would be a step back.

[Landaren]

I'd expect melee healing to get a tuning.

The group heal aspect may get nerfed also, prolly have its cool down increased to like 5 seconds instead of 2.

[Awe]

Actually, you see a lot more healers because of the CC bugs in tier 4 at the moment. Yes, we can heal better now, that's pretty obvious, but we could heal pretty well before. The reason they did that to books and chalices is because there was no point to use them otherwise.

If they got rid of the RF generation on the chalices, everyone would go back to two handed and dual wield. I guess they could tone it down, but getting rid of the RF generation completely would be a step back.

I didn't say they'd get rid of the RF regen, I said it would get nerfed.

And it will get nerfed. Neither class is supposed to be pumping out raw healing the way they do, without being in melee. Stuff like being able to smite (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8250) fresh air to build RF just compounds the problem - but Mythic won't change that because it's a difficult coding issue. They will take the easy option by halving (at least) RF regen.

You are all welcome to come pat me on the back in 6 weeks time when it happens.

[Rozerick]

I'd expect melee healing to get a tuning.

The group heal aspect may get nerfed also, prolly have its cool down increased to like 5 seconds instead of 2.

If they got that into nerfing WP/DoK, we would go back to where we were before 1.06, back when playing a WP was unbearable (At least in tier 4, from what I remember, still played through it though).

The books/chalice might be a bit much, but other then that, WP/DoK is fine.

[DreadMage]

Alternatively, there aren't a slew of ezmode aoe healers (ie DoKs/wp's) around and that aoe damage obliterates the opposition. Granted this is rare as the average number of DoK's/WP's per scenario is ~3-4 these days. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

Ya, and a majority of them do not even know they have the ability to heal. Lots of idiots rolling the "FOTM forum class". Since DoK/WP has been getting a lot of spotlight, you see more of them. We get the worst combination in the game. We have to be up front to be able to melee-heal, and we are a healer class. Not only do we get the shaft along with other melee classes, but we are usually the first to get targetted and FF'd since we are also healers.

If you think DoK/WP is easy mode, I'd recommend getting out of T1, for starters.

Actually, you see a lot more healers because of the CC bugs in tier 4 at the moment. Yes, we can heal better now, that's pretty obvious, but we could heal pretty well before. The reason they did that to books and chalices is because there was no point to use them otherwise.

If they got rid of the RF generation on the books/chalices, everyone would go back to two handed and dual wield. I guess they could tone it down, but getting rid of the RF generation completely would be a step back.

Actually, if they remove the regen, NO ONE is using a chalice, ever. That is because the +DPS aspect of the Chalice is getting removed next patch. Apparently it was a bug that Chalices gave bonus damage to abilities, not a feature. Without the regen, and with the +DPS aspect getting axed, the Chalice gives some +stats, and nothing more.

I'd expect melee healing to get a tuning.

The group heal aspect may get nerfed also, prolly have its cool down increased to like 5 seconds instead of 2.

Nerfing the group heal is hardly a fair change. Considering DoK/WP have relieable spike heal, the group heals are all we got. We are AoE group healers. Nerfing that basically nerfs the class.

I didn't say they'd get rid of the RF regen, I said it would get nerfed.

And it will get nerfed. Neither class is supposed to be pumping out raw healing the way they do, without being in melee. Stuff like being able to smite (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8250) fresh air to build RF just compounds the problem - but Mythic won't change that because it's a difficult coding issue. They will take the easy option by halving (at least) RF regen.

You are all welcome to come pat me on the back in 6 weeks time when it happens.

Show me some SE generating skills a DoK can use to generate SE when the front lines are too hellish to approach. Oh wait, you can't because all we can do is spam Fist of Khaine and channel BO for some chump SE regen to use 2 AoE heals, then sit back down and be useless for another 10s. BTW, Essence Lash does not regen 45SE unless it actually hits an enemy, Smite does not have that little clause.

[Landaren]

book's are fine, the only reason we can heal way better then the other healers is because of the fact that there is almost no delay inbetween 1 second casts.

Trust me, I was doing 350k before the books, it was a little harder but I still got it done.

If you really want them nerfed that's the only way to do it.

There really are no other options for RF regen, I know healers on my server with +15 AP regen. I think limiting us to purple books with +12 is fine.

To the above poster, I understand that. I don't want it to be changed myself and think things are fine the way they are. Hell it's already hard enough keeping people alive even with 950 willpower. But if we do get a nerf that is the most likely nerf that would be applied.

[Awe]

I've seen level 22 DoK's doing 250k. Seen screenshots of WP's doing over 500k.

You never saw an RP or AM, Zealot or Shaman do that before 1.0.6.

[Rozerick]

I've seen level 22 DoK's doing 250k. Seen screenshots of WP's doing over 500k.

You never saw an RP or AM, Zealot or Shaman do that before 1.0.6.

I've actually seen RP's and Zealots get those numbers.

The healing prayer we have helps with the numbers, doesn't really mean it keeps anyone alive. Scenario numbers are kind of a bad way to tell if a class is OP'ed.

[DreadMage]

I've seen level 22 DoK's doing 250k. Seen screenshots of WP's doing over 500k.

You never saw an RP or AM, Zealot or Shaman do that before 1.0.6.

You don't get it, do you?

Scenario scoreboards mean NOTHING.

Game 1 you can have a bunch of retards using low AoE damage and the DoKs can consistently outheal that damage since its spread over an entire group. No one dies and DoKs get 500,000 healing done each.

Game 2 you can have a pre-made group on vent using assist trains and the DoK are useless since everyone gets burned down so fast the HoT/AoE heals the DoK have are not nearly enough. Order mows Destro and DoK has 20,000 healing for that match.

Game 1, DoK is superior because sustained AoE damage is what DoK is best at healing.

Game 2 Shaman/Zealot is superior because they can burst heal.

Numbers mean nothing. Its just more common for a bunch of idiots playing rambo and doing spread damage, so DoK get higher numbers because that damage is easy to heal.

[Helinin Overextended]

I seriously don;t get it.

After 4mths, ppl are still using SCs as base of arguments....

[Awe]

I *never* saw any RP or AM posting a 500k+ screenshot before 1.0.6. Screenshot or it never happened tbh. Neither were WP's or DoK's, infact WP's at 40 weren't even breaking 200k with regularity. Now level 25 WP's are doing it with regularity.

The books just let them stand at the back and completely ignore their class ability, which is supposed to be RF through melee. If you'd actually played all of the healers then you'd realise very quickly that RF>AP healing by a long, long way.

[Awe]

I seriously don;t get it.

After 4mths, ppl are still using SCs as base of arguments....

And exactly what are people like 'Dreadmage' basing their arguments on?

[Helinin Overextended]

And exactly what are people like 'Dreadmage' basing their arguments on?

Non SC situations?

I'm not sure you notice Awe but you're the one who start all the

"I've seen level 22 DoK's doing 250k. Seen screenshots of WP's doing over 500k."

Nice.

[kingamongpeasants]

I think all the classes mentioned in the first post are fine.

What OP should do instead of saying which classes are OP is say which classes are broken.

infact i'm going to make such a thread :-)

[Tykero]

WPs/DoKs have no potent anti-burst healing, no potent out-of-group healing, and the worst rez spells in the game. People honestly think that it's overpowered for them to be the best group sustainers?

Their healing values are inflated due to the way they work. They're not overpowered.

[Raskol]

I would consider the "no burst healing" point to work...if ANYONE had burst healing.

NO healer is capable of significant (ie can actually save someone from 2 attackers, or 1 with a heal debuff) single target burst heal in this game. I hear WP/DOK talk all the time about how their weakness is that they can't save anyone being focused. Guess what, no one can. It takes guard+healer to do that, and that's if said target is being attacked by less than 3 people or so. More than that and nothing will save them. If anything, you're the ONLY ones in the game who can save someone being focused, with DA/RS being such humongous heals (situational, but so what? Oh yeah, I rolled a DOK the other day...rend soul doesn't require line of sight and can even heal friendly NPCs which casted healing won't work on...try it sometime :D)

An 1125 point heal that takes 3.5 seconds (due to cast time bug) to get off under the best possible circumstances and is set back so much that in reality it takes 5-6 is not so much better (lol) than DA/RS that it serves as compensation for the perks WP/DOK get.

Buff the big heal to 1.5s cast and take away the 'fragile' part and maybe we'll talk, until then LOL...

[Billrizer]

I do think the regen for the DoK Chalice might be a bit over the top, but nerfing it heavily I think will hurt the class more then help it. Does it need tuning? I would say yes.

The only reason you see DoKs getting insane healing numbers is because their group heal is on a 1 second cooldown. My Zealots is a 3 second cast so I can't spam it. One thing a DoK can't do is single target heal well - this is something my Zealot can out perform most DoKs in and despite what you might think this is important.

Sure no one can save you from a zerg, but the Zealot can keep a Marauder or other DPSer up longer assuming backline healing. Melee healing is another story, but typically DoKs that are "melee healers" heal themselves and go DPS. You really don't have the time to heal anyone when you are getting pummeled yourself. Yeah they have heals like Consume Essence and Transfer Essence, but IMO those DoKs are not as effective as backline healing. They all play as a DPS class which consequently heals the group here and there.

[DreadMage]

I would consider the "no burst healing" point to work...if ANYONE had burst healing.

NO healer is capable of significant (ie can actually save someone from 2 attackers, or 1 with a heal debuff) single target burst heal in this game. I hear WP/DOK talk all the time about how their weakness is that they can't save anyone being focused. Guess what, no one can. It takes guard+healer to do that, and that's if said target is being attacked by less than 3 people or so. More than that and nothing will save them. If anything, you're the ONLY ones in the game who can save someone being focused, with DA/RS being such humongous heals (situational, but so what? Oh yeah, I rolled a DOK the other day...rend soul doesn't require line of sight and can even heal friendly NPCs which casted healing won't work on...try it sometime :D)

An 1125 point heal that takes 3.5 seconds (due to cast time bug) to get off under the best possible circumstances and is set back so much that in reality it takes 5-6 is not so much better (lol) than DA/RS that it serves as compensation for the perks WP/DOK get.

Buff the big heal to 1.5s cast and take away the 'fragile' part and maybe we'll talk, until then LOL...

Rend Soul is not a dependable healing skill.

I have had plenty of moments where my RS got blocked/parried or only hit once and the return from it was negligible. Also, it is a channeled spell which eats SE pretty fast. Its also melee-range and you need a target with low armor/toughness for this skill to do anything.

Combine the above and you get a situational heal which is sub-par in terms of reliability and burst. Considering Sac DoKs spend their time at front lines, your targets will be shield-wielding tanks or the occasional MDPS with decent armor/toughness. Neither give a good return on your investment. This goes for Consume Essence as well.

Kind of hard to keep people alive with such limitations. Thats why the ranged healers do this so much better. If I see a tank getting burned down, my only hope is that a BW is AFKing beside me so I can pop my RS and heal my tank, while a Shaman uses his 2.5s heal (which can be lowered by a second or so) to heal that tank. In realty, by the time I find a target to hit, that tank would be dead.

[Qualum]

Agh Dreadmage, you're killing me.

First, to all the scenario chart haters: It's about the most reliable evidence we have. With healing you're only getting points if you heal someone. I think most people appreciate any heals they get. ;) (Hrm, are people who don't like scenario charts those people who never top them? And who make excuses as to why someone of a lower level in the same class did considerably more healing? "Agh, that was unimportant healing. I did more of the important type!")

Burst argument: Like people said, you don't really burst people back to life in t4. The 'ranged' healers abiltiy to do so is overstated. Incidentally, I actually can tell when people are getting healed by DoKs because it's a consistent bit of healing every few seconds. I much more often come cross a person getting good healing through the group heals of a DoK than I do them getting singular heals.

If your Sac DoK is on the front lines, pick a better target than a tank with a shield. Seriously, that's like the first rule of the game: Don't hit the guy with a shield!

If I see a tank getting burned down, my only hope is that a BW is AFKing beside me so I can pop my RS and heal my tank, while a Shaman uses his 2.5s heal (which can be lowered by a second or so) to heal that tank

I presume by lowered you mean the cast time decreased. However, the mechanic is borked. Shamans do not cast offensive spell all that often (especially not multiple consecutive ones). So really a less than 2.5s heal is a pipe dream and since it takes so long you're looking at setbacks. And even without setbacks, you know how many times people have gone from 60-70% life (when I started to cast my big heal) to dead? Plenty.

[genius loci]

4. Engineers. You do too much damage. The damage was a cop out by Mythic because they didn't want to make your CC more effective. Plus, you share the curse of SH in the sense that you have a range buff to your midrange line that your mirror does not have. Caveat: A nerf to the damage will likely come with a boost to CC / group utility.The only OP thing is range. Damage is either low and mitigated though resists (same as any magic RDPS) or physical, in which case is almost ueless against heavy armoured targets. 3rd mastery tree would be useless if there wasn't Electromagnet and 1st is almost as bad as it can get. The oh, so great CC is a myth, even tanks and MDPS have more than Magi and Engi.

[DreadMage]

Agh Dreadmage, you're killing me.

First, to all the scenario chart haters: It's about the most reliable evidence we have. With healing you're only getting points if you heal someone. I think most people appreciate any heals they get. ;) (Hrm, are people who don't like scenario charts those people who never top them? And who make excuses as to why someone of a lower level in the same class did considerably more healing? "Agh, that was unimportant healing. I did more of the important type!")
I hate scenario charts because they prove nothing. Given the right situation, anything is possible. The ignorance of the majority of players feeds on that. You post one screenshot where a Magus got a fluke 500k damage in a TA match and every jumps the gun and yells nerf. They will ignore the 100 other SS showing the average of 200k and focus on that one SS of 500k and say "NERF MAGUS IS OP!".

Scenario charts mean nothing because there is no control test for them. Using something that consists of completely random elements (average rank, career composition, # of afks, player skill, gear, etc) as a basis for an argument is pointless. Sorry, that is not reliable evidence. Freak situations happen. Ever wonder why most "OMFG CLASS IS OP!!" threads have only one or two screenshots of this "reliable evidence"? ;)


Burst argument: Like people said, you don't really burst people back to life in t4. The 'ranged' healers abiltiy to do so is overstated. Incidentally, I actually can tell when people are getting healed by DoKs because it's a consistent bit of healing every few seconds. I much more often come cross a person getting good healing through the group heals of a DoK than I do them getting singular heals.
I have had ranged healers save my butt with spike heals on more than one occasion. If one person in the group is getting spiked down, a DoK can't do anything. That AoE group heal won't save anyone under fire, which a Shaman could.

If your Sac DoK is on the front lines, pick a better target than a tank with a shield. Seriously, that's like the first rule of the game: Don't hit the guy with a shield!
Most people still do not understand that. Also, sometimes thats you you can hit. The Engi turrets and kitties are a limited resource in WAR.



I presume by lowered you mean the cast time decreased. However, the mechanic is borked. Shamans do not cast offensive spell all that often (especially not multiple consecutive ones). So really a less than 2.5s heal is a pipe dream and since it takes so long you're looking at setbacks. And even without setbacks, you know how many times people have gone from 60-70% life (when I started to cast my big heal) to dead? Plenty.
Standard cast time on big heals is 2.5s. Its longer because of the general cast bar lag, which pisses the hell out of pretty much every player. Also, timing is a big part. If people go from 70%->0% in 3s, no one would be able to save them anyways.



red 10chars

[Sidian]

I'd like to point out a few things about Disciples. I played disciple since June 2007 and survived all the changes in the meantime. Back in the old days of beta doks could either dps, heal for a short period of time and then regen SE or heal a bit longer using their own HP's (old sacrifice tree). They were unreliable as healers and could only help other healers keeping everyone alive until the big heal lands. That's it.

My zealot has +21 AP regen on items, as I consider it to be my main stat. It doesn't mean I don't have 800 willpower though. I rarely run out of AP, which does happen quite often on my disciple (both AP and SE). Yes, DoK has way more survivability and can cast a group heal and a heal+hot while a zealot casts his groupheal, but it's impossible to keep on healing for longer periods of time, as you run out of SE and have to regen.

A zealot is quite capable of single target burst healing, while dok is not. I know, I play both. Once a target gets focused you cast the big heal. Once it hits you cast daemonic fortitude, divine favor and spam flash of chaos. Daemonic fortitude can crit up to 3.5k, divine favor is always 1.8, flash of chaos crits for 800. If you back it up with tactic giving your target a 25% heal bonus after you crit with a heal the chance of survival of a focused target raise significantly. It's something a dok can't do, which is allright.

Rend soul is indeed a very powerful heal. No, correction. Divine assault is a very powerful heal. As a DoK I want to be equal or at least have a good shot at possibilities of a warrior priest. Unfortunately Mythic failed utterly changing the damage type for both DoK and WPs. Both Rend Soul and Divine Assault are not affected by armor, only toughness and spirit resistance. Now while order stacks their spirit resistance, as many of our careers use it as primary damage type (like sorcerers and maguses), we don't, as order's main damage type is elemental/corporeal. I want my rend soul to be elemental damage and we can talk.

Furthermore it can be parried, dodged, blocked and absorbed (because of another bug ~300 points of absorb cut the heal to a maximum of 4 HP), so it's not reliable, sorry, especially if you take the resistances problem into consideration.

Regards,
Sidian

[genius loci]

I want my rend soul to be elemental damage and we can talk.Good post overal, but this one wouldn't fit lore-wise. Corporeal or physical because it comes from swords or spiritual as Disciple is living conduit of his God. Elemental just doesn't make much sense. But I see your point.

[Sidian]

Oh, one more thing about doks: The "Universal Confusion" morale must go. Flush it along with Bright Wizards' version. I've never used it and never will, as it's 100% overpowered. I prefer to fight an opponent, who has a chance to defend themselves.

Regards,
Sidian

[Khaelann]

First, to all the scenario chart haters: It's about the most reliable evidence we have. With healing you're only getting points if you heal someone. I think most people appreciate any heals they get. ;) (Hrm, are people who don't like scenario charts those people who never top them? And who make excuses as to why someone of a lower level in the same class did considerably more healing? "Agh, that was unimportant healing. I did more of the important type!")

No, we actually understand how EASY it is to top the scenario boards and how EASY it is to get inflated numbers. We also understand that there's a slew of things that affect the outcome.

Now if you want SS, go look through my posting history on the DoK forums. I cant be bothered to post them again and again just because some T2 chav cant play his game properly and thus calls other classes overpowered. Heck, an AM in the right group with the right setup is overpowered! Nerf AMs!

As to Awe the whiner, Zealots have broken over 700k healing and there has been several SS on the forums, sowwy. They also did it before 1.0.6.

Now, go look in the old combat discussion and the RvR discussion archives if you want to actually find the SS.

And finally, the 101 on how to get big healing numbers in a scenario:

1. Get Squared
2. Have it show your HoTs on people
3. Apply your HoTs on anyone taking even 1dmg
4. Keep HoTs up all the time
5. Rinse and Repeat

Remember to HoT even people who are sure to die in the next couple of seconds, it still increases your healing count. Remember to heal the fall damage on people when they leave the spawn in various scenarios.

Bonus contribution: BW/Engi doing lots of small AoE damage or DoTing people up with weak DoTs. Will yield you huge numbers!

Result = Large healing numbers in the end of the scenario, the crowd goes wild! Awe and Qualum scurry off to the forums to whine about yet another healer getting massive numbers.

[Raskol]

Dreadmage:

The problem isn't that people go from 70-0 in 3.5 seconds.

The problem is that the 3.5 second cast time (again, this is the real world, not tooltip-land and even that is assuming no one is attacking you) makes the HPS of the spell low enough that it doesn't really work to keep anyone alive. Even against one high dps attacker (say a WE or WL) on a squishy, who doesn't even bother to use a healing debuff, the HPS will be outdone by their DPS and the target will die (just a bit more slowly). Against 2 attackers with a healing debuff (which is the minimum that any competent team will put on a target), you might as well just prep your res key, because the victim will be dying quickly and there is nothing you can do about it.

Rend soul/Divine assault might not be "reliable" (as if a 3.5s cast heal that can be interrupted in a thousand different ways, including autoattacking the healer, is reliable).

But in those situations where real burst healing is needed it can save targets where the big heal will fail every time. It's the biggest heal in the game and it isn't affected by healing debuffs or--and this is important---line of sight. Not saying it always will. Just saying it sometimes can, unlike anything the ranged healer can do. It will sometimes succeed in situations where the big heal will always fail. It is far and away and without question the best non-morale burst heal in the game.

Does it sometimes get parried? Yes, if you're not skilled enough to get behind your target (should be easy if you're saving someone else, their attacker should be facing them, not you) or it might fail if you have no one near you to attack (solution: always stand within a few seconds running distance of the nearest enemy when in pvp? not too hard in most situations)

Does the big heal often fail LOS checks because of the humongous cast time, taking 3.5 seconds and then doing nothing? Yes, and there is nothing you as a healer can do about it (except whine at your team to make sure to keep track of your and their location at all times). Can the cast time be doubled by a player or even a squig/lion/turret/demon autoattacking you? Yes, and there's nothing you as a healer can do about it (except beg your team to get pets off you when they have better things to do). Looks like it's not very relaible either :(

By the way--Sidian---talking about your "burst healing"...you forgot to mention in your post that it consists of a 3 minute cooldown which AM/sham do not get and a morale ability which melee healers also get. If being able to (maybe) save a target once every three minutes is what you consider your zealot's main advantage vs your dok...well...

All in all, I hope the melee healers don't get nerfed, because I'm currently leveling one. Shaman has been shelved :p

[Qualum]

Sidian: Good post. Most people don't go so heavy into AP. In large part because doing so means you have to run around in substandard, non-set gear. That being said, AP is my main issue, so I may give it a shot later.

You point out divine favor as an advantage of the zealot but the melee healers get it, too. Moreover, the best 'burst' in the game in my mind is funnel essence, followed by a 1s aoe group heal of DoK/WP.

As for the scenario charts: I'm not going OMGWTF nerf over one scenario chart. I look at a large number of charts. I understand the things that change scenario charts. I never go, "omg look at that nub he sucks," because I realize he was running the part, or doing something else useful. But it's pretty clear that WPs and DoKs are running on easy mode after looking at a bunch of charts.

Moreover, it's not like scenario charts are lying to you. The better players (or better levelled/geared players) get higher numbers. Certainly there are other factors in a scenario but in the end, especially in t4 (where objectives are routinely ignored), the goal is to put out damage leading to kills and heal as much as you can. This doesn't necessarily pertain to tanks (but it can, as they can put out good damage along with their survivability), and debuffs don't show up on the scoreboard BUT besides that its' pretty cookie cutter.

As for the AOE damage/heals: The only case where that damage doesn't matter is when the game has stopped being competitive. Otherwise, really any damage is putting stress on healers. If the healers are not running out of AP/RF/SE, not being harassed, etc. it'll easily be healed off. If you have 4 DoKs/WPs in a scenario (two in each group) yeah, you may as well not even put up aoe DoTs. ;)

[Oghier]

5. Squig herders.... the best at close range.

What are you talking about here? SH's primary vulnerability is close range. Due to the dead zone, any class able to stay in melee range of a SH will win. With the huge number of snares, knockdowns, etc out there it is often impossible for the SH to escape.

If you are referring to Squig Armor giving Herders close-range capabilities, then you do not understand the basic mechanics of the class.

[Qualum]

That mainly stemmed from a different thread about RDPS balance in which a couple of SWs came out and said, "Well, yeah, of course we're weaker than the other RDPS because we have the option of going melee." The same should/could be said for SHs; though their mechanic is a bit more difficult to use it doesn't negate the fact you do have that option.

Further, you're not the worst when people get into close range because of your ability to get away. In my mind there's no contest: if there's a magus, sorceress, and SH lined up, the SH is the last one I want to attack because their ability to create and keep separation. However, in the state of the game now, they're also probably causing the most havoc to the other side so I *should* attack them.

Genius Loci:
I've been neglecting conversations about engineers because people come in and just say, hey, we're AOE spread damage, not OP. To some extent I agree with this. My engineer was my main when I switched to Order. I routinely topped damage charts but generally was a few behind on killing blows. Then came the change and it was like cake topping damage and KB. One of my guildies was like, "hehe, you guys are OP now," and I was like, "no we're not, it's just spread damage," but then I realized the only people that'd ever come ahead of my engineer (who is in mediocre gear) were BWs with *great* gear being pockethealed I was just like, "meh, mebbe you are right." That all being said, perhaps I'm hoping for a change because I'd like the class to be more CC, more utility. As it is, you can go EM but it still works off of a disrupt system (and my engi has oddly low intelligence), and Order just gets less utility out of it than destro (and our tinkerer line sucks generally). You can throw a landmine but you're basically giving destro free immunity. ;)

[Chakraa]

I do think the regen for the DoK Chalice might be a bit over the top, but nerfing it heavily I think will hurt the class more then help it. Does it need tuning? I would say yes.

The only reason you see DoKs getting insane healing numbers is because their group heal is on a 1 second cooldown. My Zealots is a 3 second cast so I can't spam it. One thing a DoK can't do is single target heal well - this is something my Zealot can out perform most DoKs in and despite what you might think this is important.

Sure no one can save you from a zerg, but the Zealot can keep a Marauder or other DPSer up longer assuming backline healing. Melee healing is another story, but typically DoKs that are "melee healers" heal themselves and go DPS. You really don't have the time to heal anyone when you are getting pummeled yourself. Yeah they have heals like Consume Essence and Transfer Essence, but IMO those DoKs are not as effective as backline healing. They all play as a DPS class which consequently heals the group here and there.


This is uninformed....... DoK Group heal is a 1 second cast with a 2s cooldown. You heal is a 3s cast with no cooldown. The only advantage a DoK has is the ability to cast other spells during the 2s khaine's embrace is on cool down.

The trade off for this is, DoK's have a 6 second rez, and no single target heal. A pretty fair trade IMO.

That said, DOK's are almost what mythic promised us as healers. They can DPS with the right gear/tactics or heal with the right gear/tactics. Why would you want that nurfed? I would think you would want all the healers to have that choice.

[Qualum]

1. Being able to cast another spell in between aoe group heals is a great advantage.
2. You do have single-target heals, despite being situational. And in that regard, other classes single-target heals are also situational (ie, do I have no one around me to interrupt, are they going to die during the 2.5 + 0.7 sec lagging cast time?)
3. I'd say the biggest advantage of a 1s group heal over a 3s very sensitive heal is less time being pushed back. If there's a squig in my general vicinity that 3s group heal is taking 6+. If there's a tank on me or looking at me, no real reason to even start casting it.
4. Undoubtedly DoK/WP are the most fun to play because of their better healing and their versatility. If that becomes the standard of healing (and the other classes move up a notch) then people will probably say that's fine. For whatever reason, Mythic does not seem to want to go that route. Just the impression I get.

[Chakraa]

1. Being able to cast another spell in between aoe group heals is a great advantage.
2. You do have single-target heals, despite being situational. And in that regard, other classes single-target heals are also situational (ie, do I have no one around me to interrupt, are they going to die during the 2.5 + 0.7 sec lagging cast time?)
3. I'd say the biggest advantage of a 1s group heal over a 3s very sensitive heal is less time being pushed back. If there's a squig in my general vicinity that 3s group heal is taking 6+. If there's a tank on me or looking at me, no real reason to even start casting it.
4. Undoubtedly DoK/WP are the most fun to play because of their better healing and their versatility. If that becomes the standard of healing (and the other classes move up a notch) then people will probably say that's fine. For whatever reason, Mythic does not seem to want to go that route. Just the impression I get.


1) Yes we have HoT's that provide lovely heal chart numbers but do very little to keep people alive. My zealot is an order of magnitude better at keeping up a single target.

2) Unreliable single target healing is just that.... unreliable. Yep, it pads heal meters but unless I can time rend soul with the opposing teams burst damage and it doesn't get block, parried or interrupted its not going to keep anyone alive. (White Lion Pets are wonderful help on that ability)

3) Agreed! IMO the more WP you have the less chance for spell pushback you should have.

4) The problem I see in the game is shaman/zealot/RP/Archmage survivability and DPS. It's boring to healbot all the time and its frustrating to healbot and die easy. These classes need some added survivability and some tactics allowing them to do something besides healbot.

[Manicai]

Black Guards... OP...?

Black Guards = Swordmasters...

So that must mean Swordmasters are OP.



Sorry if someone already corrected this tool, but if so, the nub deserves a smack again anyways.

Black Guards = Ironbreakers

Black Guards have Hate, and Ironbreakers have Grudge. Its the same mechanic, making these two classes the mirrors. Just because BG's and SM's are both elves, doesnt make them mirror classes.

Just to further absolve any confusion

Black Orc = Swordmaster
Chosen = KoTBS
Disciple of Khaine = Warrior Priest
Squig Herder = Shadow Warrior
Marauder = White Lion
Sorceress = Bright Wizard
Witch Elf = Witch Hunter (two stealthies with witch in their name, yes can be confusing sir)
Zealot = Rune Priest
Shaman = Archmage
Magus = Engineer

[Eisenhart]

Sorry if someone already corrected this tool, but if so, the nub deserves a smack again anyways.

Black Guards = Ironbreakers

Black Guards have Hate, and Ironbreakers have Grudge. Its the same mechanic, making these two classes the mirrors. Just because BG's and SM's are both elves, doesnt make them mirror classes.

Just to further absolve any confusion

Black Orc = Swordmaster
Chosen = KoTBS
Disciple of Khaine = Warrior Priest
Squig Herder = Shadow Warrior
Marauder = White Lion
Sorceress = Bright Wizard
Witch Elf = Witch Hunter (two stealthies with witch in their name, yes can be confusing sir)
Zealot = Rune Priest
Shaman = Archmage
Magus = Engineer
Mechanic mirrors means nothing if theyre not the role mirrors.

Lets say BO and BW had the same mechanic. Would you still compare them knowing 1 is a RDPS while the other 1 is a tank?

There is no point in comparing classes purely on the mechanics, you need to compare their roles. Specifically im thinking of BO and SM not having the same roles for each side which makes it pointless to compare BO with SM.

[Stormblazer]

Gotta love the ignorant players who judge a class by what they see on a scenario scoreboard. Get a clue buddy. Just because the Magus was hitting 10 people for 100 damage a tic with his DoTs for the entire 15 minute round does not mean the class is any good. Sustained damage is trash in a game where everything revolves around spike damage. Ya, that Magus spent the entire game DoTing everything that moves, and all that damage is covered by a single AoE group heal. Rinse, repeat, and you get a Magus with 300,000 damage and 0 kills and a WP with 300,000 healing. Ya, both classes are OP, nerf please. :roll:

As far as healing numbers go, read what I said above. Useless AoE damage coupled with mediocre AoE healing means the damage gets cancelled out by the healing, and no one dies. Do this for 15 minutes and you get inflated numbers which mean nothing. Stop using scenario scoreboards.
I can't speak for magus, but Engineers, yes grenadier engies, are perfectly capable of getting high kills counts. Admittedly I'm in T3, but from about r24-r25 onward I was consistently top or near top Killing blows as well as top damage, as grenadier, and I guarentee you I was killing things - Sc scoreboards or not, solo kills on healers as a mid-T3 engie reliably says something, and that's only gotten obviously better as I've reached the top of the tier.

And further, even when I didn't kill something, I often made it possible for someone else to, by my damage soaking up enough of their healing either on themselves or their group for another player to take them out, such as a WL. It's called pressure.

Further (again, can't speak for magus, only engies), our r2 morale allows some potent AoE burst, especially in keep fights. Frankly, my engie in T3 is tied with my salv WP w/epic book was in T3 as far as how powerful the classes feel - that is, my WP and my Engie feel to me more powerful than the other classes I've played, by a significant margin, and while they certainly diminish in T4, reports from guildies and others indicate it does not lessen by that much.

Mind you, this applies exclusively to Grenadier spec. I have not tried the other engie specs, I know that tinkerer needs a complete redo, as does magus equivalent.

[Qualum]

T3 is kind of a high point for grenadier engineers because the maps I played the most are very well suited to you. Tor anroc? Lots of knockbacks, as well as thing passages forcing people to stand in groups. Doomfist and Isha? Fights generally have everyone bunched up.

Serps is the most popular T4 scen and unless you're camping or being camped it's one of the more 'spread out' scenarios. You can still put up impressive numbers but you really have GLEE moments when you get into a howling gorge scen with 24 people all standing in a cluster. :)

[Stormblazer]

1) Yes we have HoT's that provide lovely heal chart numbers but do very little to keep people alive. My zealot is an order of magnitude better at keeping up a single target.

2) Unreliable single target healing is just that.... unreliable. Yep, it pads heal meters but unless I can time rend soul with the opposing teams burst damage and it doesn't get block, parried or interrupted its not going to keep anyone alive. (White Lion Pets are wonderful help on that ability)

3) Agreed! IMO the more WP you have the less chance for spell pushback you should have.

4) The problem I see in the game is shaman/zealot/RP/Archmage survivability and DPS. It's boring to healbot all the time and its frustrating to healbot and die easy. These classes need some added survivability and some tactics allowing them to do something besides healbot.

I have an RP and a WP in T4 - RP is zealot mirror, WP is DOK mirror so I'm going to compare them:
The RP would have superior single target healing if Master Rune of Speed was working again and if the cast time bug was fixed, because then it could cast the big heal at 1.8s. Until then, it is inferior to a WP with an epic book:

The big heal, even at 2.5s+bugged, is barely superior to a WP spamming Divine Aid + base HoT, and is less likely to save someone under heavy fire where you don't have time for the 2.5s+bugged cast. Further, that is assuming that you get no pushback or CC on the 2.5s, which is incredibly unlikely. A WP suffers far less pushback. And if it's on a group target, the WP is flat out superior as Divine Aid and the HoT can be alternated in the group heal, and the entire rotation is less susceptible to CC and more mobile due to shorter cast times. And the WP is healing his group at the same time! And don't forget the WP has an extra HoT ticking, however little it might be, for group as well.

Now, yes, Divine Aid costs a lot of RF. With an epic book however, this is hardly relevant. It's nearly impossible to run out of RF with an epic book, and even if you do, it regens so fast you don't need to stop healing for long at all.

And none of this mentions the nice utility of the Cleansing Power tactic, that activates are practically every heal you cast.

[Manicai]

Mechanic mirrors means nothing if theyre not the role mirrors.

Lets say BO and BW had the same mechanic. Would you still compare them knowing 1 is a RDPS while the other 1 is a tank?

There is no point in comparing classes purely on the mechanics, you need to compare their roles. Specifically im thinking of BO and SM not having the same roles for each side which makes it pointless to compare BO with SM.

Umm...look at my list and tell me one class grouping that doesn't have the same role?

The mirror list I posted is correct.

The BO and a BW do NOT have the same mechanic, as they are not mirrors. Class mechanic is not the only thing that contributes to make a class its mirror. However, all mirror classes in this game have similar, if not exact same mechanics.

[kuno00]

So I'm just gonna throw myself into the discussion and goto bed xD

1. What was it, DoKs and WPs...well yeah, as a WH I can tell you I'm having a hard time with these, and they are becoming more and more attractive...I've seen scenarios with 6+ DoKs in them, and you know what...Classes do actually get nerfed if they're played too much! Just look at the KotBS! He got nerfed and the chosen mirror skill didn't. Why? Cause the effect was present too often on the battlefield, cause everyone was rerolling a kotbs...and now it's the dok...just waiting for the nerf here. On a personal note I actually think they're fine because the mirrors are just as OP, and as long as we can fight same with same thinsg are rather in order. (but seriously, you're lucky if you find a scen with less than 4 doks nowadays...and you#re even more lucky if one of them actually dies.)

2. The Tanks, I'm sorry but that argument is horrible, I don't see tanks trivializing anything, Where I paly most tanks are performing well, The SM is a tad off and maybe should be looked into a bit as he has some serious aggro problems, but that's it.

3. The witchhunter...honestly? FINALLY WE'RE GETTING NOTICED! you know what a witchhunter was pre 1.06? "oh look a player!" "a what?" " a player!" "god, they might aswell have sent a while lion..." "but white lions are strong!" "no, not a white lion...just the lion of a white lion...ya know?!" "oh...ya"
I'm probably horribly biased because I play a withhunter and will never seriously play anything else, but damn I just love the attention I get in a scenario nowadays! Why, because we're actually a threat now...a WE is still better, but the margin got smaller and smaller. And although this is not a "nerf WE!" topic, I'm just gonna say it as it is. As long as the WE doesn't get a nerf, neither should the WH.

What was the last thing? Ohya Engis and Squiggies.
I think they kind of share a similar problem, alot of straight forward dps without alot to it. The Engi still ahs alot of utility in it...Combine Magnet + Fortress = Killer!!
But as far as I can tell both classes aren't just straightforward "okay, klick this button, then klick it again and kill!" no, there's actually more to it.
But perhaps a look into the exact dmg numbers might not be wrong.

[Eisenhart]

Umm...look at my list and tell me one class grouping that doesn't have the same role?

The mirror list I posted is correct.

The BO and a BW do NOT have the same mechanic, as they are not mirrors. Class mechanic is not the only thing that contributes to make a class its mirror. However, all mirror classes in this game have similar, if not exact same mechanics.
You posted the correct mechanical mirrors and for most of the time theyre also role mirrors.

Try and go to the BO boards and see who BO compares themself to. They compare themself to IB because the IB role is more a mirror to BO than the SM is. So mechanic mirror does not equal role mirror.

There is also a whole thread about mirrors from a while ago on the class balance forum.
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229813

[Stormblazer]

T3 is kind of a high point for grenadier engineers because the maps I played the most are very well suited to you. Tor anroc? Lots of knockbacks, as well as thing passages forcing people to stand in groups. Doomfist and Isha? Fights generally have everyone bunched up.

Serps is the most popular T4 scen and unless you're camping or being camped it's one of the more 'spread out' scenarios. You can still put up impressive numbers but you really have GLEE moments when you get into a howling gorge scen with 24 people all standing in a cluster. :)
Ah, but my playstyle tends to work well even when they aren't bunched up. I honestly suspect most Grenadier engies aren't aware that there are more options besides spamming the AoE DoTs. Of course the best times are when they're bunched up, but even when they're not, my single target damage is not small at all, especially if I coordinate with even one other player, be they RDPS, Tank, or MDPS. Hell, a couple matches I had a vaul AM /assisting me with the healing debuff. That was just mean. Suffice to say, they died like flies because I usually target the healers first (I suppose this would be hard for magus since they lack Throwing Arm).

Granted, soon as I hit T4 I'm going to suck due to being at the bottom of the tier, but I'm more interested in how things play out a bit higher. I don't really like T4 for other reasons (my first T4 char was an RP, second a WP), but we'll see.

Either way, I doubt I'll lose my ability to get an almost 100% kill on any non-tank with full DoTs+r2 morale + 'nade spam.

[Qualum]

I really did fine in t4 as a low level but that was the pre-root changes. I often find myself sneaking around the side of the battle to get at the healers. A full dot load up, esp. with UF on a healer is mean. Before they realize they're actually taking substantial damage you can start direct damaging them with healthy dosings of flashbang and concussion so they're relegated to instant-casts.

That being said, Serp's being an 'open' map somewhat impacts our ability to get to healers. There are generally more established lines (and not lines imposed by geography) so healers have a safer cushion than on other maps. You CAN sneak around the side and that worked beautifully when we were essentially the lowest priority to take out but more commonly now it means you're ripe for the picking by a WE. :)

Anywho, good luck and enjoy.

[Manicai]

You posted the correct mechanical mirrors and for most of the time theyre also role mirrors.

Try and go to the BO boards and see who BO compares themself to. They compare themself to IB because the IB role is more a mirror to BO than the SM is.

Interesting.

[Eisenhart]

Interesting.
Made a few ninja edits ^^ try looking the thread through that i posted in my last post.

[Manicai]

Made a few ninja edits ^^ try looking the thread through that i posted in my last post.

Ya I read the post you linked ; P. Like I said some interesting points. And some ridiculous points that made me want to pull my hair out!

It seems to me that Mythic just made it more desirable for certain specs, rather than others.

Take the WP and DoK for example. DoK's IMO are better at getting in peoples face, debuffing them, stealing their life. But Warrior Priests are much better at back line healing.

Completely different roles...still IMO the WP and DoK are mirrors.

I guess the line gets fuzzy with tanks. I still think mirror classes on each side just have different "more desirable" specs to go into. Coincidentally making their role, match that of someone outside of their mirror.

Edit: Upon further reading. It looks like me and you are arguing the same points and representing the two opposing view points expressed over and over in the thread you posted.

As to not hijack this thread even further...Agree to disagree?

[Eisenhart]

Ya I read the post you linked ; P. Like I said some interesting points. And some ridiculous points that made me want to pull my hair out!

It seems to me that Mythic just made it more desirable for certain specs, rather than others.

Take the WP and DoK for example. DoK's IMO are better at getting in peoples face, debuffing them, stealing their life. But Warrior Priests are much better at back line healing.

Completely different roles...still IMO the WP and DoK are mirrors.

I guess the line gets fuzzy with tanks. I still think mirror classes on each side just have different "more desirable" specs to go into. Coincidentally making their role, match that of someone outside of their mirror.

Edit: Upon further reading. It looks like me and you are arguing the same points and representing the two opposing view points expressed over and over in the thread you posted.

As to not hijack this thread even further...Agree to disagree?
As many say then SM and BG is anti-magic tank while BO and IB is the defensive tank.
As a BO, i do find myself more comparable with IB than the SM.

Like a guy once said, i take a stand until i take a new. If the facts change, then so does my opinion so if you can disprove the anti magic theory then i will change my opinion.

But like you said, mythic might have intended for the mechanical mirrors to also be the role mirrors but didn't do it properly, but this is a discussion for another time and another thread. :)

Just don't be surprised if you see some people disagree on the mirrors for tanks. I think the rest of the mechanical mirrors are also the role mirrors or at least very alike.

[Seldoran]

As many say then SM and BG is anti-magic tank while BO and IB is the defensive tank.
As a BO, i do find myself more comparable with IB than the SM.

Like a guy once said, i take a stand until i take a new. If the facts change, then so does my opinion so if you can disprove the anti magic theory then i will change my opinion.

But like you said, mythic might have intended for the mechanical mirrors to also be the role mirrors but didn't do it properly, but this is a discussion for another time and another thread. :)

Just don't be surprised if you see some people disagree on the mirrors for tanks. I think the rest of the mechanical mirrors are also the role mirrors or at least very alike.

Swordmaster "Anti-Magic" abilities and Tactics
Shatter Enchantment
Whispering Wind (13 Point Hoeth)
Dazzling Strike
Crushing Advance (9 Point Vaul)
Gryphon's Precision (11 point Khaine)

Blackguard "Anti-Magic" abilities and Tactics
Brutal Smash
Malekith's Bulwark
Endless Pursuit
Shielding Anger (11 Point Anguish)
Mindkiller (7 point Anguish)

Black Orc "Anti-Magic" abilities and tactics
Shatter Enchantment
Shut Yer Face
Can you hear me now?
Big Brawlin' (7 point Da'Boss)

Ironbreaker "Anti-Magic" abilities and tactics
Sever Blessing
Avalanche (3 Point brotherhood)
-------------------
Those are the strict "anti-magic" abilties and tactics. I may have missed a couple. There are other abilities that aid against "magic" but they aid against everythign else (Improving "Block", or "Wall of Darting Steel", for example.")

As far as being an "anti-magic" tank is concerned, I'm not sure how that theory got off the ground, as the "anti-magic" tanks certainly don't have alot more to work with than the "frontline" tanks.

[Eisenhart]

Those are the strict "anti-magic" abilties and tactics. I may have missed a couple. There are other abilities that aid against "magic" but they aid against everythign else (Improving "Block", or "Wall of Darting Steel", for example.")

As far as being an "anti-magic" tank is concerned, I'm not sure how that theory got off the ground, as the "anti-magic" tanks certainly don't have alot more to work with than the "frontline" tanks.
The BO abilities are correct and i checked the SM which were also fine.
However I do believe that you missed out on 1 very important factor. SM do have a rank 2 morale called (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9057)Wings Of Heaven (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9057) which allows the SM to catch up to its enemies. The BG got (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9348)Wave Of Scorn (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9348) to catch enemies at distance.
One of the reasons why BO is weak against magic is its lack of ranged CC. All BO CC is melee range or 10ft. That makes the BO very subtle to kiting while SM has less problems. From what I've seen then IB suffers from lack of ranged CC also.

If you take a look at these tables and compare the stats, then IB and BO are more comparable than BO and SM.
Sorry that KOTBS and BG arent included, its a bit old thread I'm referring to :)

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75508

But lets no derail this thread anymore, if anyone has more information to bring to this, please PM or make a thread about it. ^^

[verinus]

Wps salvation spec seems to be a bit op due to the changes in RF gain through books. this allows a WP to forego melee altogether while healing at their full potential.

WPs melee healing and survivability are unfortunately very lacking. what i would do is:

- remove/ tone down CC in t4
- reduce Rf generation for salv priests: stop books generating RF when casting up to 2s after a spell has been cast or tone down RF generation if the former has not the desired effect
- tone down dmg across all classes. TTK should be > 15s on squishies e.g.: WE on AM.

[Kirtooz]

SH arent all that powerful, we are good at killing squishies. but that's about all

[kbern]

IMHO your logic is a big backwards. You cant point to a class and say nerf it! without adding some details as to what specifically, and why.

Simply saying, "oi, they need a nerf because too many people play them!" is ridiculous at best.

Maybe those classes are fun to play and thats why people roll them. Maybe Mythic needs to look at what is attractive about certain classes and find those niches for other classes that need some work.

You could be right, but posts like this have no real substance and just some subjective interpretation going on.

[kbern]

WP's and DoK's are not the best healers, an RP can still keep everyone alive a lot better then us, stop looking at scenario numbers then forming an opinion on a class.




/applaud

People love to make illogical conclusions without looking at why certain things happen.

I am Grace spec'd and I refuse to simply be a backline healer, but I am also pushing 32 and doing my best to avoid the CC'fest that is T4 which would force me to change my healing style.

Doh, I quoted wrong, it was supposed to be the quote about T4 cc and perma gray bars if WP/DoK choose to melee and heal.

[Qualum]

Melee healing is undoubtedly more difficult in T4. But, certainly not impossible. I actually haven't seen any WPs on my server doing it since the Tome change (because I think everyone is pressured into being a backline healer now), but beforehand there were a number of successful ones. And presently there are some very, very devasting frontline DoKs.

That being said, any class at level 32 is going to have a difficult time in T4. Once you hit 40 you're sturdy enough to actually be up in the front lines. Additionally, I feel the TTK in t4 across the board is too high for enjoyable combat. That and the CC are major factors why people consistently enjoy lower tier combat more.

Edit: I actually do now recall a frontline WP. He's level 34 so his results are mixed and he's a bit too fearless BUT, still pretty effective. He and I were actually tag-teaming squishies (me on my WH) and though I doubt he was giving other people the same attention as me, it certainly helped and was nice to have someone who could pop out heals in the back. :)

2nd Edit: Kbern, a lot of the WPs I know rolled specifically for their backline healing ability, which was viable pre-tome changes but now... well, it's just *the* way to go.

[kbern]

Melee healing is undoubtedly more difficult in T4. But, certainly not impossible. I actually haven't seen any WPs on my server doing it since the Tome change (because I think everyone is pressured into being a backline healer now), but beforehand there were a number of successful ones. And presently there are some very, very devasting frontline DoKs.

That being said, any class at level 32 is going to have a difficult time in T4. Once you hit 40 you're sturdy enough to actually be up in the front lines. Additionally, I feel the TTK in t4 across the board is too high for enjoyable combat. That and the CC are major factors why people consistently enjoy lower tier combat more.

Edit: I actually do now recall a frontline WP. He's level 34 so his results are mixed and he's a bit too fearless BUT, still pretty effective. He and I were actually tag-teaming squishies (me on my WH) and though I doubt he was giving other people the same attention as me, it certainly helped and was nice to have someone who could pop out heals in the back. :)

2nd Edit: Kbern, a lot of the WPs I know rolled specifically for their backline healing ability, which was viable pre-tome changes but now... well, it's just *the* way to go.

Oh I dont doubt it. So many people go for the perceived FOTM classes. I honestly think they have done WP and DOK's right in the realm of healing and some tweaking on the other classes would do wonders for the game as opposed to nerfing.

Right now I am doing my best to complete the Dev set (fricking 4 helms and no BP's to complete the set /grumble) and once I hit 32 obviously forced to go to T4.

I like how they admitted the timers on the hot keys being greyed out was bugged and fixed ( have not tried it yet) but that should make it a bit more bearable while working to 40.

[mach4]

That's why mythic has to filter what the community writes, because 99.998% of it is without any basis in reality.

Regarding WP/DOKs, you're mistaken. Everyone rolls them because in PUGs and PUG scenarios, they are great at EITHER healing the group, or DPSIng.
They lack FF healing.
They lack cross group FF healing (almost entirely)
They have the weakest rez.

The three big cons put them squarely balanced. Sorry. Only in PUGs to caster healers have so much to fear because no player guards them, no player protects them, and all the DPSnoobs rush them for easy RP. That has NOTHING to do with class balance, it's a result of PUGing.

In actual premade groups vs premades, you'll see most people don't even want a WP or DOK, favoring the caster healers since they have better FF healing, better utility/debuffs, better CC, and better rez.

Funny that class balance is about # 95 out of 100 things wrong with WAR, doesn't even register as being an issue that even needs looking into.

[Khaelann]

2nd Edit: Kbern, a lot of the WPs I know rolled specifically for their backline healing ability, which was viable pre-tome changes but now... well, it's just *the* way to go.

Viable? No. Doable? To some extent. On WPs more than on DoKs but for both the pre-SE/RF regen addition to Chalices and Tomes meant that you're using Blood Offering/Supplication like no other if you wanted to be a backline healer. Playing the middle was more viable but also more dangerous, but hey, you could actually then heal for more than two seconds.

[Stormblazer]

That's why mythic has to filter what the community writes, because 99.998% of it is without any basis in reality.

Regarding WP/DOKs, you're mistaken. Everyone rolls them because in PUGs and PUG scenarios, they are great at EITHER healing the group, or DPSIng.
They lack FF healing.
They lack cross group FF healing (almost entirely)
They have the weakest rez.

The three big cons put them squarely balanced. Sorry. Only in PUGs to caster healers have so much to fear because no player guards them, no player protects them, and all the DPSnoobs rush them for easy RP. That has NOTHING to do with class balance, it's a result of PUGing.

In actual premade groups vs premades, you'll see most people don't even want a WP or DOK, favoring the caster healers since they have better FF healing, better utility/debuffs, better CC, and better rez.

Funny that class balance is about # 95 out of 100 things wrong with WAR, doesn't even register as being an issue that even needs looking into.
I still get a kick out of these. Yes, the ranged healers have better FF healing - if nothing is attacking them ever. Spell pushback and CC are significant, sorry. It's not just a matter of survivability. Guard isn't going to prevent CC and pushback, and all the AP regen in the world doesn't allow chain casting like a good epic book/chalice does. 12RF/SE per half second allows you to spam heal a lot of pretty damn good stuff. Also, keep fights.

The only thing they lack is a good rez and some utility (though WPs have decent utility with the curse removal tactic). I'm not claiming WP/DoK are OP, they aren't. Honestly it's more that ranged healers need work - they're not underpowered except for AM, but design-wise they need adjustments to make them more sensible and workable, especially mechanically.

[verinus]

That's why mythic has to filter what the community writes, because 99.998% of it is without any basis in reality.

Regarding WP/DOKs, you're mistaken. Everyone rolls them because in PUGs and PUG scenarios, they are great at EITHER healing the group, or DPSIng.
They lack FF healing.
They lack cross group FF healing (almost entirely)
They have the weakest rez.

The three big cons put them squarely balanced. Sorry. Only in PUGs to caster healers have so much to fear because no player guards them, no player protects them, and all the DPSnoobs rush them for easy RP. That has NOTHING to do with class balance, it's a result of PUGing.

In actual premade groups vs premades, you'll see most people don't even want a WP or DOK, favoring the caster healers since they have better FF healing, better utility/debuffs, better CC, and better rez.

Funny that class balance is about # 95 out of 100 things wrong with WAR, doesn't even register as being an issue that even needs looking into.

unfortunately this is very true.

my opinion as a grace priest:

i feel quite powerful when i go agains opponents that attack me one after the other and fail to take me down.

thank god i dont have to play against organised destro groups very often but when i have to say i feel the WP is lacking and failing in its originally intended function.

ccs aside as they destroy fun for all melee classes the WP drops nearly instantly. from my impressions the survivability of grace and wrath WPs need to be improved. perhaps some sane itemization might fix the problem.

[DreadMage]

unfortunately this is very true.

my opinion as a grace priest:

i feel quite powerful when i go agains opponents that attack me one after the other and fail to take me down.

thank god i dont have to play against organised destro groups very often but when i have to say i feel the WP is lacking and failing in its originally intended function.

ccs aside as they destroy fun for all melee classes the WP drops nearly instantly. from my impressions the survivability of grace and wrath WPs need to be improved. perhaps some sane itemization might fix the problem.

Think this applies to every class. Looking at my gear, I have more useless stats than I do useful stats for my class.

[orangerascal]

well lets see: SA (1,5 sec GCD) PtF (1,5 sec GCD) lets throw in a silence for kickz (1,5 sec GCD) 4 point execution

A. go level up and stop playing naked
B. stop playing naked
C. l2p


this whole section of this forum is a joke

Irony highlighted in red. You realize SA does not trigger the GCD?

[SpyridonZ]

What does it mean when 7/22 almost 1/3 of the classes are OP, not counting WE of course. Could it mean that perhaps none of them are OP?

lol, yeah this is always funny in games.

Even some of the most balanced games out there have people saying the others are OP. A heavy-tournament based game such as SC or WC would have every single race saying the others are OP, yet all of them reguarly achieve tournament wins against eachother.

Grass is always greener :p

[Gloomdove]

The WP and DoK aren't overpowered, the AM, Sham, RP and Zeal are just unsatisfying to play. AM and Sham both have a useless mechanic while the RP and Zeal it could be said have no mechanic. But what really tips the scales in favour of the WP/DoK is the classes synergy. As a grace spec WP I can hit something and heal at the same time! On my AM I have to heal OR DPS. Salvation WPs are making the choice to become healbots, the other classes have no such choice but are just pigeon-holed. That is why the WP/DoK are rising in popularity.

And Popularity does not directly corrilate to being OP. >_>

[Awe]

I have real issues with any class that can do 9k damage vs 50% armour in 16 seconds....while healing themselves to full at the same time. Oh, and having the best morale ability in the game. Let's not forget a free 10% parry just for being destruction (oops I meant to say, a dual wielding class).

I can only say for sure that anyone who actually, truly, believes DoK's aren't OP has never actually seen a lvl 40 DoK in decent gear yet.

[DreadMage]

I have real issues with any class that can do 9k damage vs 50% armour in 16 seconds....while healing themselves to full at the same time. Oh, and having the best morale ability in the game. Let's not forget a free 10% parry just for being destruction (oops I meant to say, a dual wielding class).

I can only say for sure that anyone who actually, truly, believes DoK's aren't OP has never actually seen a lvl 40 DoK in decent gear yet.

Laying off the drugs might help your issues.

Maybe you need to find yourself some better gear, because clearly you've never found a WP in good gear.

Try dealing with a WP who stacks STR with a 2H and uses DF + 50% auto-attack. You think our damage is crazy?

BTW. I'll trade my dual-wield for a 2H any day. Too many issues using 2 weapons. Can't believe you actually whine about this.

[Abyssia]

I totally agree.. WH are OP and engineers do too much dmg.. WL fetch need to have its length reduced as goes for their jumping...no way is was intended to fecth from 500 yards away...

[Gishem]

I totally agree.. WH are OP and engineers do too much dmg.. WL fetch need to have its length reduced as goes for their jumping...no way is was intended to fetch from 500 yards away...


150 yards.

Explain how WH are OP for me?

Engineers doing to much damage? they do this by mass dotting, Nothing a HOT can't keep under control.

Riflemen spec are pretty beastly though.

[Yamota]

By not having WE on your list you invalidated it because WE is the nr 1, by far, the most OP class.

Witch Hunters? Engineers? Squigherders?

Are you kidding me?

Those classes are fine and do nothing out of the ordinary. Engineers do high AoE damage but not single target.

Witch Hunters are how squishy killers should be like, they can do it but not that insanely fast as the Witch Elf.

And Squigherders do nothing out of the ordinary. Great at close range? Say what? Are you referring to their weak pet that dies in three hits?

And you mention DoK but not WP? If one is OP then for sure as hell is the other.

[Sahrokh]

No one got some "you are OP" words of love for my Sorc?

[elj]

No one got some "you are OP" words of love for my Sorc?


No, at release date you were a lesser copy of a BW.
Now they kept one somewhat viable spec, you became a sad lesser copy of your nerfed mirror.
While playing AM and Zealot might be more frustrating, playing a Sorc is like "hey I am useless and cruddy in every possible way except at keep defense, can I tag along and look pretty?"

[Marsares]

No, at release date you were a lesser copy of a BW.
Now they kept one somewhat viable spec, you became a sad lesser copy of your nerfed mirror.
While playing AM and Zealot might be more frustrating, playing a Sorc is like "hey I am useless and cruddy in every possible way except at keep defense, can I tag along and look pretty?"

And that's why they need a buff or resists needs locking at. Before the nerf I was quite nervous about Sorcs, now I rush towards them on either my WL or Assault SW and just take them down without worrying too much. Somewhere in the middle would be nice for them...

[Yamota]

The WP and DoK aren't overpowered, the AM, Sham, RP and Zeal are just unsatisfying to play. AM and Sham both have a useless mechanic while the RP and Zeal it could be said have no mechanic. But what really tips the scales in favour of the WP/DoK is the classes synergy. As a grace spec WP I can hit something and heal at the same time! On my AM I have to heal OR DPS. Salvation WPs are making the choice to become healbots, the other classes have no such choice but are just pigeon-holed. That is why the WP/DoK are rising in popularity.

And Popularity does not directly corrilate to being OP. >_>

Very well put! WP/DoK may appear to be OP, because their spells/mechanics actually work, where as AM/Shamans does not and Zealots/RP have none.

Also as you put WP/DoK are versatile. They can heal and DPS and both fairly well. However an AM/Shaman is struggling to do both and a RP/Zealot that tries to do anything but heal is just laughable.

So WP/DoK are more popular because simply they arent broken/boring like the other "healing" classes.

[Yamota]

No, at release date you were a lesser copy of a BW.
Now they kept one somewhat viable spec, you became a sad lesser copy of your nerfed mirror.
While playing AM and Zealot might be more frustrating, playing a Sorc is like "hey I am useless and cruddy in every possible way except at keep defense, can I tag along and look pretty?"

Hey I think BWs are fun to play atleast. I can blow things up and do nice DPS when backed by a healer.

But my AM/Zealot are just heal bots with AM being the inferior heal bot. With their lineup of spells I imagine this is not what they were intented to be but nevertheless that is what they are.

[Jinnz]

might necessitate an increased ability to survive, as well.

3. Black Orcs / Black Guards! The two tanks that trivialize endgame PvE over all others.



Engi and SH are very similar doing lots of direct damage etc, SW and Magus are more AoE damage. This is how its meant to be can you not see this? You even answered it in your post almost..

[Gomez92008]

Ok, a question that may explain most fo the whines posts for Engineer's.

Have you ever been kited, that much you dont even get to hit the person playing the engineer, before you die?


I play my engineer as a 1v1 kind of guy, i believe that my kiting skills are damn good and i haven't found any player i can't kite or kill.

The only 2 player's that give me jip are Arul, and Irreversable. Both We's that even though have the status of "OP" over them, use there tools to great effect.
But that doesn't mean i can't kill them. Ive kited both and killed both with ease. That doesn't make the class OP that juts means, so to speak ive the skill to make the most of my career, to kill them.

Before i go on, my ingame name is Arukasa, im a level 40 engineer, and am rank 39 in renown. So i haven't got elitest gear.

If you are getting pumped by engineer's constantly kiting you, your either following them like a sheep or not using the scenary to your advantage.

I believe the only guy that has managed to do this with great effect was a level 40 Chosen called Unleashed. He/she is a very skilled player and plays his class to full effect. An engineer that can't see you behind a wall can't do damage to you he can get ready for you, but thats where you need to think of different ways of getting him, instead of running straight dead at him.

One funny thing i find that most DoK's are very unskilled on how to survive being kited to death. Ive only ever seen one DoK that was able to survive my damage until was able to use my rank 2 Morale.

ill wrap this part up by just sayiong if you do get killed by someone, who kites you on an engineer, your playing your class wrong. Im sorry but were easy enough to lock down.



Ok the argument that engineer's have amazing AoE damage. Our ticks do without buffs 100-300 damage thats if we spec for a glass cannon approach. And then we will just get pumped if in melee range.
The reason some engineer's get loads fo damage in a scenario is maybe they have a healbot, go kill the heal bot, otherwise your going to die.
Maybe they just spammed acid bomb and frag grenade until they went blue in the face.
I dont do billions of damage, but i do often get alot of solo kills, and put enoguh pressure on the healer's for them to retreat.

As for our imense burst damage we can't even use the rifleman tree at the moment because of the casttime bug. We can't link a deadly 4k-5k damage hit because our casttime lag doesn't allow us. This makes our damage slighty gimped, because we can burst down healer's quick enough.

Basically the morale of the story is, a well play balanced class, can have great effect on the battlefield, that doesn't make the class OP, that means the player has enough skill to use his class to the greatest of effect.

/Gomez


P.SS if you have been kited from me and got really pissed im sorry but i found you first ;) O and Vrugar you need a shield ;)

[Qualum]

Yamota: I did include DoKs and WPs I believe.

I did not include WEs because I didn't want it to become a nerf WE thread. Plus, the title of the thread excludes them because they do know they're OP. ;)

To the above: I don't know that people have gone off about engineer kiting. I was referring to squig herder's ability to kite. The lack of a ranged snare and a speed boost makes kiting less of a possibility as an engineer. (Though I suppose you could load up the barbed wire tactic for a 30 foot snare or whatnot).

Helstrom: I cannot see that. SW do not do amazing AOE dmg. Engis are clearly the magus mirror.

I'm not swayed by the "other classes are underpowered" theory. ;) The point is achieving balance. Whether you say one class is OP or another is UP is a matter of semantics. Mythic, and just about every game company, far as I know, says they will try not to nerf and buff to the best of their capability. But as the game is relative anyhow a buff to one class is a nerf to all the classes that oppose them.

[genius loci]

Engi and SH are very similar doing lots of direct damage etc, SW and Magus are more AoE damage. This is how its meant to be can you not see this? You even answered it in your post almost..Uhm... Engi = AoE, SH/SW are the single target kills :)

[Gaxx]

All the classes in the OP are about where they should be (even WE). I'm talking T4 of course, T1-T3 do not matter. Following classes need help though:

AMs: healing and survivability buff

Shaman: healing buff

RP/Zealot: healing buff and both of their talent trees are an atrocity

Sorc/BW: fix resists, the fact that they can hit themselves for more than an opponent is ridiculous

SW: make ranged trees more viable. Compared to SH their ranged tactics especially are an absolute joke

Really, no class needs a significant nerf atm. The only glaring issue might be the cooldown on the fetch and magnet type abilities needs to be increased.

[sangdrax]

All the classes in the OP are about where they should be (even WE). I'm talking T4 of course, T1-T3 do not matter. Following classes need help though:

AMs: healing and survivability buff

Shaman: healing buff

RP/Zealot: healing buff and both of their talent trees are an atrocity

Sorc/BW: fix resists, the fact that they can hit themselves for more than an opponent is ridiculous

SW: make ranged trees more viable. Compared to SH their ranged tactics especially are an absolute joke

Really, no class needs a significant nerf atm. The only glaring issue might be the cooldown on the fetch and magnet type abilities needs to be increased.

really? you think the issue with AM and Shaman is healing? How about the fact that they don't even scratch the surface of a hybrid? Healing increases won't do anything for the class except give them more healing... they will still be mechanic less heal bots.