How do you feel about mirrors being made identical?

[Gobbosmasher]

Personally, I think it's a great idea, simply because no-one can ever complain. If you feel otherwise please post why.

[AsNied]

No, because now is more fun. That move was made in WoW and ...

[Gobbosmasher]

No, because now is more fun. That move was made in WoW and ...

I disagree. Paladins and Shaman for both side gave raids such a massive boost. Where would Horde be without Paladin tanks, and where would Alliance be without abilities like Heroism.

Also, poll added.

[Ayamo]

Wouldn't mind,

But on the other hand, I do.

I like WL's more than mara's.

I like SH's more than sw's.

I like low lvl sorcs more than bw's, high lvl bw's more than sorcs.

I like WE (no, not the opness, but cause of the animation) more than wh.


And why? Because their animation/mechanic is just different. You can't mirror something with different mechanics.

[amobius]

Have a week or two weeks where each side play against their own rather than order vs destro. Then take the feedback from that and make the balancing.

[Farshatok]

You would have to:

- remove the pistol from WH or at least not make it shoot at range anymore
- Give Oathfriend to Black Orc or Blackguard (and change the Elf tank's role accordingly)
- establish clearly where the mirror line is drawn between SH/SW/WL/Mara as these classes share their skills and not even CSR's know what the mirrors really are :)
- give SW pet? remove pet from SH and give to Marauder?
- make Engi a caster that deals magical damage from his rifle (not that hard, but it would sound weird)

I believe that a good portion of the players haven't rolled a realm, but a class. I know that is my case. When the game started, I couldn't see myself roll Destro, but after a while I wanted a MDPS class and the only one I really liked was the Witch Elf. There's a smoothness in the animations that the WH lacks. And then there are the daggers :cool:

[Gobbosmasher]

You would have to:

- remove the pistol from WH or at least not make it shoot at range anymore
- Give Oathfriend to Black Orc or Blackguard (and change the Elf tank's role accordingly)
- establish clearly where the mirror line is drawn between SH/SW/WL/Mara as these classes share their skills and not even CSR's know what the mirrors really are :)
- give SW pet? remove pet from SH and give to Marauder?
- make Engi a caster that deals magical damage from his rifle (not that hard, but it would sound weird)

I do not believe you understand mirrors enough to offer a decent insight to what I'm proposing here. However I will address each of your points from my POV.

I believe that the pistol could hit the opponent in the face. It's a lump of metal, it sounds silly, but it could work. All that could change is that Witch Elves could have executions (dunno if they're called that on WE) that could be like a dagger throw that could hit from range.

The Black Guard is the Ironbreaker mirror. It seems that you didn't know this. They both use the Grudge/Hate mechanic, therefore, Black Guard could have Blood Ally as the same thing as Oath Friend.

Squig Herders and Shadow Warriors are mirrors, and White Lions and Marauders are mirrors. Where Shadow Warriors and Marauders have 3 Stances and Mutations respectively, White Lions have 3 seperate buffs for their pets and Squig Herders have a few types of Squigs. These classes, due to their mechanics, could never be exactly the same. However, abilities could still be the same, with lowered damage from the pet classes as their pet would compensate.

Next point is addressed in what I just wrote.

The type of damage is different. The idea of giving magical damage to Engineers breaks lore. The damage type makes little difference as itemization is unique for the class.

[Farshatok]

I do not believe you understand mirrors enough to offer a decent insight to what I'm proposing here. However I will address each of your points from my POV.

I believe that the pistol could hit the opponent in the face. It's a lump of metal, it sounds silly, but it could work. All that could change is that Witch Elves could have executions (dunno if they're called that on WE) that could be like a dagger throw that could hit from range.

The Black Guard is the Ironbreaker mirror. It seems that you didn't know this. They both use the Grudge/Hate mechanic, therefore, Black Guard could have Blood Ally as the same thing as Oath Friend.

Squig Herders and Shadow Warriors are mirrors, and White Lions and Marauders are mirrors. Where Shadow Warriors and Marauders have 3 Stances and Mutations respectively, White Lions have 3 seperate buffs for their pets and Squig Herders have a few types of Squigs. These classes, due to their mechanics, could never be exactly the same. However, abilities could still be the same, with lowered damage from the pet classes as their pet would compensate.

Next point is addressed in what I just wrote.

The type of damage is different. The idea of giving magical damage to Engineers breaks lore. The damage type makes little difference as itemization is unique for the class.

If you believe I do not understand mirrors, you should have not responded. However:
- the WE having ranged finishers... it's been suggested, opinions are split (the pistol already hits the opponent in the face)
- while IB/BG share a mechanic, they do not share the same role (at least according to Mythic). IB's are suppose to be more defensive while the BG was marketed as an anti-caster tank (mirroring the SM from this point of view)
- Not making the WL/SH and SW/Mara exactly the same means that they're not identical mirrors, kind of defeats the point

Anyway, it's a matter of opinion. Like I said, I believe most people like the little differences that make their class unique from a skill point of view. Don't assume I don't understand, just because I'm disagreeing.

[Draxan]

Wouldn't mind,

But on the other hand, I do.

I like WL's more than mara's.

I like SH's more than sw's.

I like low lvl sorcs more than bw's, high lvl bw's more than sorcs.

I like WE (no, not the opness, but cause of the animation) more than wh.


And why? Because their animation/mechanic is just different. You can't mirror something with different mechanics.

If they were to make the mirrors identical they could just take the most functional bits of each of the mirrors and stick them together and rebalance accordingly. Also the animations wouldn't change, just the damage and the stats of their abilities.

[Ayamo]

If they were to make the mirrors identical they could just take the most functional bits of each of the mirrors and stick them together and rebalance accordingly. Also the animations wouldn't change, just the damage and the stats of their abilities.


And the fun there is what?


A tad more balance? This game is already quite balanced.

For the order commin now, screaming, but omg, destro has like, allz the cc, destro has 78, order has 79, end.

[Khaelann]

Being identical sucks big time, no thanks. I'll rather have classes with unique skills than a bunch of copies that just look different.

[kingsword]

There should be equally powerful but different abilities. Now it's generally one mirror having insanely OP ability repertoire and its counterpart getting the leftover bits. Check out:

WE vs WH
Mara vs WL
BO vs SM
DoK vs WP

First ones completely overpower their mirrors and this comes from someone who played a r40 dest character until recently.

[Efertin]

There should be equally powerful but different abilities. Now it's generally one mirror having insanely OP ability repertoire and its counterpart getting the leftover bits. Check out:

WE vs WH
Mara vs WL
BO vs SM
DoK vs WP

First ones completely overpower their mirrors and this comes from someone who played a r40 dest character until recently.

You forgot IB vs BG, Engi vs Magus, BW vs Sorc and SW vs SH.

It's quite obvious to me that Mythic totally fals at balancing these different mirrors, what that means is that they should just make them copies of each other,

[Ayamo]

Mara vs WL


First ones completely overpower their mirrors and this comes from someone who played a r40 dest character until recently.


Completely overpowers:rolleyes:

I wish people would stop believing everything 12 year old kids whine about on the forums.

[Efertin]

Completely overpowers:rolleyes:

I wish people would stop believing everything 12 year old kids whine about on the forums.

Some people actually base their opinions on something else than scenarios.

Mouth Of Tzeentch+Insane Whispers

Demolition

Concussive Jolt

[Phelan]

There should be equally powerful but different abilities. Now it's generally one mirror having insanely OP ability repertoire and its counterpart getting the leftover bits. Check out:

WE vs WH
Mara vs WL
BO vs SM
DoK vs WP

First ones completely overpower their mirrors and this comes from someone who played a r40 dest character until recently.

I'm just going to poke at one of these to make my entire point on this: BO vs. SM.

It seems a lot of people on these forums haven't figured out that being a mechanic mirror does not mean being a role mirror. while the Swordmaster and Black Orc use the same A -> B -> C mechanic, they do not serve the same role. The Black Orc is heavy duty tank while the Swordmaster is the 'anti-magic' AoE tank. The Ironbreaker and the Blackguard have a similar mechanic; however, they are NOT role mirrors. Ironbreaker's role mirror is the Black Orc, a heavy duty beat-on-me tank; while the Blackguard's role is very similar to the Swordmaster: AoE and anti-magic.

You seem to get this with the White Lion and the Marauder as they have the same role: non-stealth melee DPS; but, they use different mechanics. The marauder's mechanic mirror is the Shadow Warrior; and, the White Lion is mechanically mirrored by the Squig Herder.

Now, I'll go ahead and answer the question of this poll:

NO!

Part of the charm of WAR is the fact that almost no two classes play the same because most of them are dual mirrored (sorc/BW, WE/WH, and WP/DoK being the three that are role and mechanic mirrored). And I understand the reason people want mirrors made identical is because it would make balancing the game easier. I, too, desire a balanced game. However, I don't want to give up the plus of different gameplay styles.

I don't think this game will ever see perfect balance. I don't mind that... as long as they get it close. And frankly, I think a lot of the complaints about one mirror being better than another come down to 3 things:

1) People don't get that careers are dual-mirrored (anyone who argues BO vs SM)
2) People don't understand just how much spec changes things (anyone who argues about WL single target DPS vs. Marauder single target DPS)
3) People just don't like to lose

Now I won't say that some of these arguements aren't unfounded; but, I see a lot of people complain who don't look at the entire picture. Regardless, balance the classes; however, don't make them identical. Besides you really can't... if you made my Black Orc into an AoE tank, I'd be pissed. And I know several blackguards who would be pissed to be made into heavy-duty tanks. And I know some swordmasters who would have to be made into heavy-duty tanks due to the fact they aren't supposed to be 'heavy' tanks.

[Khaelann]

There should be equally powerful but different abilities. Now it's generally one mirror having insanely OP ability repertoire and its counterpart getting the leftover bits. Check out:

WE vs WH
Mara vs WL
BO vs SM
DoK vs WP

First ones completely overpower their mirrors and this comes from someone who played a r40 dest character until recently.

I take it you've never played past T1?

WPs are the stronger of the two melee healers, sowwy.

Now, perhaps before posting more senseless drivel go and actually read up on the classes. There's a few very detailed comparisons around even on WHA which will perhaps open your eyes a bit, misguided one.

[Eisenhart]

There should be equally powerful but different abilities. Now it's generally one mirror having insanely OP ability repertoire and its counterpart getting the leftover bits. Check out:

WE vs WH
Mara vs WL
BO vs SM
DoK vs WP

First ones completely overpower their mirrors and this comes from someone who played a r40 dest character until recently.
Whats the point in giving mechanic mirrors?

Comparing a SM to a BO is pointless since they dont have the same role. They are influenced by the same mechanics true, but it doesnt make sense to say that xx class DPS better than my class tanks.

If youre gonna compare classes then compare them to their role mirror, in that case IB vs BO because theyre both main tanks for their side. Then you can say xx class tanks better than my class tanks.

But none the less, i wouldnt be playing this game if everyone had access to the same abilities. Sure its easier to balance that way but the game wouldnt be as fun.
If you make the classes on both sides the same, then there could be the possibility of much higher character specialisation so that even tho 2 persons play the same class the chance of them having the same spec should be very low.

[Gobbosmasher]

If you believe I do not understand mirrors, you should have not responded. However:
- the WE having ranged finishers... it's been suggested, opinions are split (the pistol already hits the opponent in the face)
- while IB/BG share a mechanic, they do not share the same role (at least according to Mythic). IB's are suppose to be more defensive while the BG was marketed as an anti-caster tank (mirroring the SM from this point of view)
- Not making the WL/SH and SW/Mara exactly the same means that they're not identical mirrors, kind of defeats the point

Anyway, it's a matter of opinion. Like I said, I believe most people like the little differences that make their class unique from a skill point of view. Don't assume I don't understand, just because I'm disagreeing.

I said that you didn't have enough knowledge about mirrors purely because you didn't know what some mirrors were.

My point is, although classes would be more in-depth if they were unique in their own way, it would make balance much easier, and RvR could truly be balanced, always.

[ManiaCCC]

My point is, although classes would be more in-depth if they were unique in their own way, it would make balance much easier, and RvR could truly be balanced, always.

Of course.. NOT.. you know why? There are certain classes which can't be perfectly mirrored.. like WL and Mara or SH and SW....how you can make these identical?

Or how you can balance BG and SM, who are role mirrors when they both share mechanics, with different tanks? Will you make SM pure defensive? or will swap mechanics with IB which wouldn't make sense too?

You want perfect balance.. but.. careers are not designed to be perfectly mirrored.... except Mythic will suddenly change concept of several careers, I don't see it will ever happen.

[Raxxman]

The Black Orc is heavy duty tank while the Swordmaster is the 'anti-magic' AoE tank.

I hate it when people post this.

The SM isn't exactly overburdened with AoE moves (same as the black orc 3 of them, except one of them isn't Core unlike the Black Orc, and it requires a great weapon) and has nothing that puts it above the Black Orc for taking down magic users. Infact you could argue that the Blackorc with a Detaunt immunity tactic and a core silence, and a knockdown that's lower in their tree than the SM is markedly better than a swordmaster for taking down squishies. And the black orc brings group buffs/debuffs to the table.

I'm not saying the swordmaster is useless but it's hardly an 'Anti-magic' AoE tank.

[Hedek]

Topic was discussed here http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230445 10 days ago.

[Didier]

In my opinion the abilities should be similiar, but not the same.

For example using spirit resist instead of elemental resist.

[HeatPhalanx]

I don't want to see mirrors being identical - however what I would like to see happen occasionally for balance purposes is that a class on one realm is temporarily replaced by its mirror class on the other realm for the purposes of deducing whether the reason the class is underperforming is because it's weaker than its mirror or because of the entire enemy faction.

[Arbeor]

I think it would be a bad direction for WAR. This would just cut the number of classes in half, as you would have the same classes with different names. The current system of similar but not exactly the same makes for more variety in classes.

[zerj]

"Mirrors should be kept with similar, but not identical, as they need to be unique classes"


I think you missed an option in your poll. While mirror classes are currently similar, I see no reason why they necessarily need to be kept similar. As long as the two factions (order/chaos) are relatively balanced and all classes are interesting to play this doesn't seem like a requirement. Now I suspect keeping them similar aids the developers due to less design work and it makes things easier for them to balance. But if mythic wanted to release completely different classes and got it close to rigtht that would certainly add to overall enjoyment/replayability of this game.