Thoughts on Zealot

[Hastur]

Im rly thrilled bout WAR OL and i cant wait till it gets out. I used to play WoW for 2 years and now im taking a break till War.
Im goin to choose chaos for sure but im still confused about what career to follow.
My 1st choice was Chosen, for the armor n the melee, but then i read that he will have many tanking abilities , then i thougt of the Magus, but he seemed weak and i rly want to ride a sick mount. Lately im thinking of the Zealot.
I wanted to ask ya, is he a moderate dmg dealer? or just a heal bot?
I just want to enjoy the game to the max, and after having the experience playing a rogue, i also want to stick to some good pew pew dmg ^^ and be able to heal if needed in raids

Cheers

[CNST_Casualty]

All healers in WAR have other things to do besides heal. I think the zealot is a debuffer (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) as well as a bit of a damage dealer.

If you want to play chaos and put out sick damage then I would go for Marauder or Magus.

Somebody did a write up or the zealot mechanic a while back I think. You might try searching for it and see if it suits you.

[viscanti]

If you want to be a damage dealer first, I'd suggest not playing a Zealot. They are a buff/debuff Hot/Dot type of class mostly. There won't be any big nukes really, so you won't see huge numbers, and you likely won't come close to topping the damage meters. And even if the class is a viable DPS class, you'd still have to hear everyone shouting at you to heal them and buff them. Since you can bring 2 things to a group that people want (Buffs and Heals) they will mostly expect you to do that. You're free to play whatever class however you'd like, it is your monthly fee after all. But expect for almost everyone in PUG's to demand healing and buffs.

A better question is, what exactly do you want to do? Do you want to see big damage numbers? Lots of small damage numbers continually popping up? What style of game play do you prefer, Melee or Ranged? Do you prefer to focus on DPS over tanking or healing?

[Hastur]

Like i said i used to play a rogue back in the days, and tbh i want a bit more complicated class than solo DPS .
Although i want to be able to do some damage in a fight, like a shadow priest in WoW, to be a threat to the Order, to have the ability to kick some a@@ if i choose to, or be a useful healer to the others. I want to try the ranged attacks, and im still thinking the Magus, but Zealot seems cooler. Any other hints on the damage?

[Gemini]

Ranged damage, from everything we know, is a very very low priority for the Zealot. They have good heals like all the support classes and also have great debuffs in the form of rituals, harbingers, and other cool spells. We also have some cool buffs that also each grant a unique ability along with the buff called Marks of Chaos.

As a Zealot, or any support class, you will be expected to heal. Any group worth their salt won't want you only doing that, but it will still be a very important part of your role in most if not all groups. And the groups that don't want you for a healer still won't want you for damage because, as said before, Zealots don't seem to have a lot going on in that department, they have awesome debuffs with some sweet buffs too.

If you want to do great damage, the Magus or Marauder is your class. Also, I dunno why you find the Magus "weak", but they do very good damage and almost all of their nukes have secondary effects usually in the form of debuffs, so it's not just "nuke nuke nuke, dead".

[Hastur]

Thnx guys, its more clear to me now.
There;s still plenty of time ahead till the release, and i'll prob try all the classes im not sure before i settle for my main. Any other comments are welcome

[viscanti]

It sounds to me like you would like the Magus. It's a ranged DPS class, but you trade some of your potential DPS for other things. Making it more complicated than a "pure DPS". You get more defensive skills, and can make yourself immune to either melee or magic attacks for a short period of time. You also get a few more disarms and setbacks than many of the other RDPS. So it would give you plenty of other stuff to do than just nuke the enemy.

The Zealot really isn't the "utility" class like WoW's Shadow Priest. You're still a direct healing class, and most people will expect you to do that first. IMO, the Magus is closer to the utility style of the Shadow Priest. You don't get any AoE heal through damage like the Shadow Priest, but you do get some other utility skills and are primarily a dps class. If you want to play a more utility style RDPS, I think Magus would be a good class to look into.
Check out http://www.war-resource.com/careers/magus.php
and see if any of those skills appeal to you. It's not an updated list, but it should give you a good idea how the class will be constructed.

[Hedley]

The Zealot really isn't the "utility" class like WoW's Shadow Priest. You're still a direct healing class, and most people will expect you to do that first.

see the problem is most (i didnt say all folks dont get riled up) DPS players are ignorant as to how healing works so im expecting people to NOT realize we need to DPS to heal more effectively and yell at us for doing any damage at all

[Gemini]

see the problem is most (i didnt say all folks dont get riled up) DPS players are ignorant as to how healing works so im expecting people to NOT realize we need to DPS to heal more effectively and yell at us for doing any damage at all

You don't need to do damage to heal more effectively, the Archmage, Shaman, Warrior Priest, and Discple do though. For the Rune Priest and the Zealot there is no obvious mechanic like that, but they're non-healing abilities are so good it would just be stupid for them to not be using them also.

[Hedley]

You don't need to do damage to heal more effectively, the Archmage, Shaman, Warrior Priest, and Discple do though. For the Rune Priest and the Zealot there is no obvious mechanic like that, but they're non-healing abilities are so good it would just be stupid for them to not be using them also.

really? i was under the impression our heals get better as we use the AoE effects

*edit* this is why i thought that, this is on the zealot section on the warhammer site


"Using powerful ritual magic, a Zealot can rob the subject of his Harbinger of life and spirit, draining it away to empower the Marks he has placed upon his allies with extraordinary abilities."

[Gemini]

Rituals use to have a positive effect for allies and a negitive effect on allies, but that seems to be non-existant anymore. Rituals are big ground-targeted AoE debuffs that stay on the ground for a while. Harbingers used to cause the ritual to also have a positive effect for allies of the Zealot near the target, but that was gone in the last conventions we've heard from. We've only seen one MoC that I know of, and it was completley independant of the rituals.

And, even if that has changed, the fact remains Marks aren't heals, they're buffs, so my point stands.

[Varcan]

really? i was under the impression our heals get better as we use the AoE effects

*edit* this is why i thought that, this is on the zealot section on the warhammer site


"Using powerful ritual magic, a Zealot can rob the subject of his Harbinger of life and spirit, draining it away to empower the Marks he has placed upon his allies with extraordinary abilities."

Nope, the harbingers and marks are almost completely seperated from the zealots core healing abilities. The quote refers more to the possible interplay between the zealots debuffs and buffs(though how this ends up could change, in the last gamesday build marks weren't affected by harbingers, but I suspect they may change it back; seemd so much better the other way) There's no mechanic that encourages you to do anything, it's just that you'll seriously gimp yourself and your team if you focus on just healing or just debuffing.

I see Zealots being a very busy class in battle, constantly moving their aoe debuffs to greatest effect on the battlefield, and the best zealots will maintain the harbingers and marks at all times. I also see them as a leader on the battlefield, as their Impending Doom spell(Raven flies over targets head) will be an excellent way to get the group to focus fire on a single target. Good zealots will need to know the priority targets to take down first.

[Hedley]

ha thats what i get for not being up to date with class info

[viscanti]

see the problem is most (i didnt say all folks dont get riled up) DPS players are ignorant as to how healing works so im expecting people to NOT realize we need to DPS to heal more effectively and yell at us for doing any damage at all

I've played healers in several MMO's so I'm familiar with both the perception people have about them as well as how to make them play effectively. The Zealot is one of 2 healers that doesn't need to do damage to heal effectively. But they have such a powerful buff/debuff system it would be gimping your toon to not use it. You could go the whole game theoretically without ever using a damage skill though, and not really be much worse off for it.

But my point is more about the perception of healers, especially the ones who don't NEED to do damage to heal better. Even if there is a viable Zealot DPS spec, because you are a direct healer (unlike WoW's shadow priest) you will be expected to heal first by the vast majority of players. Even if you could be effective in the DPS role, you will come across a large group of people who don't understand the role of a Utility healer/DPS'er. If you are willing to put up with them constantly screaming for heals when you'd rather be DPS'ing then that's fine. But if you'd like to DPS and then maybe do other things like heal after that, a direct healer that doesn't need to do damage isn't a good choice, if you don't want to be constantly told how to play your class.

Note: I'm not telling any Zealots to not spec for damage, and use their heals to assist a main healer as a secondary mechanism. In fact, I think that could be a very viable spec. But I don't think the majority of players will easily accept that role. If you choose such a role, try to make friends with a main healer, as your main role is to help make their life easier.

[Buzzkill]

I'm hoping most of the zealots damage is in the form of DoTs, because as a class you will be very busy healing, buffing and debuffing that you wont have time to be casting nukes often, nor should you be in most cases. This way you can increase you damage at least a moderate amount without having to forsake your other important roles.

[Leontes]

WARNING: VERY LONG, but I have a lot of ideas about Mythic's intentions with the healers in this game. Trust me, there really wasn't a way to make this any shorter. Hear me out.


Note: I'm not telling any Zealots to not spec for damage, and use their heals to assist a main healer as a secondary mechanism. In fact, I think that could be a very viable spec. But I don't think the majority of players will easily accept that role. If you choose such a role, try to make friends with a main healer, as your main role is to help make their life easier.

Yeah, at this point it's looking almost like Mythic isn't trying to make all 6 of the healer classes "primary healer material". When I was first thinking about how they would balance 6 different healers, I figured that all they would need to do is make every healing class viable in a "primary healer" situation. Give every class the tools to keep parties alive in the same fashion, and then give them secondary jobs that they could specialize into doing better, such as damage dealing, debuffing, crowd control, toughness, etc.

However as time goes on and we learn more information, it seems more and more like there are three kinds of healers:


TIER 1: Runepriest and Zealot - Primary healer. Buffing and debuffing classes with healing mechanics that do not require a builder. Not necessary to be damage oriented to accomplish this goal. Powerful buffs and debuffs further sway the tide of combat in their favor. Has the lightest armor and does the least damage of the three. The lifeblood of a balanced group and the first target for the enemy.

TIER 2: Archmage and Shaman - Secondary healer, but could primary in a pinch. Ranged damage classes whose heals are fueled through attacks. Requires heavy damage orientation to accomplish this goal. Through dealing damage and healing repeatedly, these classes give groups an overall health advantage in both terms of damage and healing per second. Has moderate armor and does moderate to high damage. A powerful ranged damage character that adds utility to a team that needs both healing and ranged damage.

TIER 3: Warrior Priest and Disciple - Secondary healer only. Does not possess the tools to primary heal. Heals are weaker due to class toughness and extreme damage output (in relation to healers). Performs their healing through indirect means, usually in the way of small heal over time or AoE pulse type heals. Their damage directly fuels their healing capabilities in multiple ways, but not quite to the extent of the Archmage or Shaman. Wears the heaviest armor of the three and does strong melee damage. A solid addition to any team with a primary healer due to the small, frequent heals that soften blows.


This is just my theory so far, and I'll go into greater detail with this in a minute. I'm not in Beta or anything, but from class descriptions and whatnot it does seem that Mythic is moving away from the notion that each race is a self-sufficient force.

A system like this would help Mythic with their WYSIWYG policy on classes, because if you saw a Disciple coming your way, you would know that he was hungry for blood, or that a Zealot was prepping his group for outlasting opponents. You could then draw some valid conclusions on what the enemy group is capable of, instead of having to wonder if the Zealot specced for that 6 second cast superaoeshadowbolt that's gonna come out of nowhere.

I don't know which way I'd rather have it, but I think you see my point. They can either give classes the option to be unpredictable hybrids or give them very specific roles to heavily define them. Some may be for "playing the class how you want it", but it just might not be that easy. More on that in a bit.

Right now, it does almost seem like it's a bad idea for Runepriests and Zealots to "spec for damage", and it might even be the absolute best idea for Archmages and Disciples to go full on damage and fully embrace that secondary healer role. We might even see this reflected in the options that they're allowed, i.e. three healing oriented Career Mastery Paths, zero damage Morale abilities, no Tactics that amplify their damage dealing skills, etc., and for the Archmage and Shaman, they might get paths, Tactics, and Morale abilities similar to classes like the Bright Wizard and the Sorceress.

So yeah, at this point, right now, I think the Zealot would be silly to even bother with doing damage. It might be viable, but we'll have to see how it pans out. There are so many customization options with characters in this game it's absolutely ridiculous.

What if the best way to be the best Shaman primary healer was to give yourself whatever Career Mastery setup gave you the best damage output, then give yourself the gear that's heavy in Willpower as opposed to Intelligence for more healing output, then have Tactics that focus on increasing damage with massing healing abilities on Morale? Then your Tactics and spec would give you tons of Waaagh! energy to work with your gear empowered heals and your 25-50% Morale healing abilities would be devastating?

Or what if the way to go is to gear yourself for mass Intelligence (which is spell damage) with damage Tactics and damage Morale abilities, then go a 100% healing oriented Career Mastery spec?

Thing is, talking about "what spec will you go" is probably the worst way to think about it because there are 4 things we need to think about when designing a playstyle.

Gear, Tactics, Morale, and Career Mastery are going to be really weird choices for us healers because of the mechanics we're dealing with, ESPECIALLY for the Archmage and Shaman, I think.

It's more about what you plan on actually spending your Action Points on. Shamans might be doing damage 70% of the time, and healing 30% of the time, and that might give them the optimal healing setup with Gear, Tactics, Morale, and Career Mastery being heavily focused on doing damage. In this case, a decidedly damage spec is the best healing spec for Shamans.

In regards to the Zealot, it's hard to know what the best healing spec might be because we need to know more about those big four character factors; Gear, Tactics, Morale, and Career Mastery. If it comes to the point where they don't have any strong damage spells and no real way to increase the effectiveness of them, then of course any damage specced Zealot will be useless.

For the sake of example, let's say your name is Noobert McNoobatron and you really want to play a sword-using Bright Wizard. You want to do a lot of melee damage, be tough, but still have access to AoE fire spells and ranged attacks. You're not asking for super powerful fireballs or massive AoEs, but you want the option to do them while you're hacking things to pieces with swords, kind of like what you could do with a Warrior in Diablo 1 if you got enough Magic stat to learn Firewall and whatnot. Great! That sounds pretty interesting, but think about it for a second.

Since all of the Gear in the game is class restricted, you're probably not going to find a lot of gear with the "right" stats for your playstyle on it. You're going to want a lot of Strength to get good melee damage. You'll need Toughness to make you hardier, and you'll need some Weapon to give you armor penetration and a higher chance to parry. You look and you look and you look for Bright Wizard gear that has those stats on it, but alas, you're stuck with nothing but Initiative and Intelligence. Damn.

Then, you take a look at your character's Tactics. Increase fire damage... increase burn duration... increase aoe radius... Where's my +damage to Sword attacks? There's nothing here! Damn.

Now we go to Morale abilities. Surely you're gonna find Mortal Strike in here somewhere... Incinerate... Inferno... Burninate The Village... Where's Mortal Strike?! Damn.

Career Mastery! Our last hope at a Sword-using Bright Wizard! Let's see... AoE Damage... Direct Damage... Damage over Time... No Sword specializations? DAMN.

It looks like you weren't even given the option to use a sword and all a Bright Wizard can do is cast fire spells.

This is what I see happening with the Zealot and Runepriest. They might be given zero Intelligence on their gear, have healing and buff/debuff oriented Tactics, Morale abilities that are massive buffs/debuffs or emergency heals, and Career Masteries based around improving their healing and buffing abilities.

On the other hand, I full expect Shaman and Archmage gear to be fraught with a mixture of Intelligence and Willpower, access to both damage and healing Tactics for a variety of roles, a blend of damage and healing Morale abilities, and possibly hybridized Career Mastery trees with emphasis on healing and damage at the same time.

Disciple and Warrior Priest would end up with a lot of Toughness, Initiative, Wounds, Weapon, and Strength on their gear, and not so much Willpower or Intelligence. Their tactics will be based around toughness and melee damage, their Morales about damage empowerment and their Career Masteries about things like melee damage, survivability, and buff/debuff.

This would allow very defined options for three distinctly different types of players. After all, an MMO has to appeal to different player types to be successful, right? Take a look:

Players like me who love the primary healing classes have a PERFECT choice in the Runepriest or Zealot. The strongest heals mixed with good buff/debuff while being ranged and squishy as hell is what we're used to, and gives a classic option for healers from games of old. These primary types could possibly have a lot of fun playing a more healing oriented Archmage or Shaman as well for a bit of a spin on the old style of healing.

Those who want a true mixture of damage and healing duties would be best suited to the Archmage and Shaman. This goes hand in hand with Mythic's age old dogma of Healers doing as much damage as possible to make them effective healers, and makes them a viable choice for pretty much anybody who wants to heal. These guys are looking to be two of the most varied classes in the game, and this will probably be reflected in, like I said, their Gear/Tactic/Morale/Career Mastery options.

The ones who love to play those strong melee damage classes with more longevity and group effectiveness would fall in love with the Warrior Priest and Disciple. Though not quite as tough as a Tank and not quite as powerful as a Melee DPS, these classes would bring a great deal of utility to any group and greatly appeal to those who truly enjoy the hybrid types of classes. These players might also enjoy the Archmage and Shaman as a ranged alternative with a stronger damage focus over healing.

That, or Mythic could be super boring and have every healer start out as Secondary Healer material and give them options to "become" primary through Gear, Morale, Tactics, and Mastery, thus socially pigeonholing a lot of players and cause a lot of specwhoring.

Remember that as much as we can try and act like Chosen can be super high damage dealers, that a Choppa can be a main tank, or that a Zealot can melt faces in PvP, we aren't the masters of how our characters work in this game. Mythic will give us options, and we have to utilize those options laid before us to accomplish our goals.

If classes like the Zealot are simply not given the tools to be damage dealers, then no amount of force of will is going to change that. Throwing damage spells will tickle if there isn't a viable option for it. You will not be a beautiful snowflake for being a damage specced Zealot, if that even exists. Also, the Disciple might not be given the tools to be great healers, and if they spend more than 4 seconds looking at lifebars they might get get instakicked from a group.

All of this remains to be seen. Thanks to anyone who bothered to read this, sorry for the length.

[Nightz]

dont listen to anyone they can do dmg! watch some videos they can do dmg and heal i think they are pretty well off dmg wise search youtube for some rvr vids of Zealot they seem good enough for me

[Nightz]

Rituals are big ground-targeted AoE debuffs that stay on the ground for a while.

Can debuffs do dmg if so your wrong. There are rituals that do dmg and i dont give a damn what anyone says Zealots and other support can do deacent dmg i think Zealots will be good hybrids in pvp and no one can convince me other wise until the game is released and i try them for myself. If i were you i would try Zealot first they may not be the best in dmg but they are deacent Magus are better though by far. But who is more useful to groups? Zealot :D go Zealot!

PS sorry for double post

[Leontes]

Can debuffs do dmg if so your wrong. There are rituals that do dmg and i dont give a damn what anyone says Zealots and other support can do deacent dmg i think Zealots will be good hybrids in pvp and no one can convince me other wise until the game is released and i try them for myself.

Um, exactly. Like I said, if Zealots are given a viable option to do damage, then go right ahead.

Until then you really can't make that assumption.

I'm seriously at the point where I think people will try to play a class absolutely any way they like just to be a beautiful snowflake. If the Zealot comes out and has 100% healing abilities with only healing Gear, healing Tactics, healing Morale abilities, healing Career Masteries, and absolutely no damage spells, you'll still see Zealots trying to melee people with daggers and calling themselves hybrids.

[viscanti]

Can debuffs do dmg if so your wrong. There are rituals that do dmg and i dont give a damn what anyone says Zealots and other support can do deacent dmg i think Zealots will be good hybrids in pvp and no one can convince me other wise until the game is released and i try them for myself. If i were you i would try Zealot first they may not be the best in dmg but they are deacent Magus are better though by far. But who is more useful to groups? Zealot :D go Zealot!


The Zealot may be capable of good DPS. We just don't know right now. But the fact is, they are one of only 2 healers who don't need to do damage to heal. So they will be expected to be primary healers by most people. That doesn't mean that there won't be a viable DPS build. But you will be fighting against a lot of peoples expectations. It would likely be similar to Retribution paladins in WoW.

If someone wants to be a DPS caster, I would suggest avoiding Zealot. If you'd like to DPS some of the time, at least pick a healer where DPS is required some of the time. Zealots are based around healing and Buffs/debuffs with damage being a distant third as far as group utility goes (at least perception wise).

[Nightz]

Um, exactly. Like I said, if Zealots are given a viable option to do damage, then go right ahead.

Until then you really can't make that assumption.

I'm seriously at the point where I think people will try to play a class absolutely any way they like just to be a beautiful snowflake. If the Zealot comes out and has 100% healing abilities with only healing Gear, healing Tactics, healing Morale abilities, healing Career Masteries, and absolutely no damage spells, you'll still see Zealots trying to melee people with daggers and calling themselves hybrids.

thats not what im saying im saying all classes can DPS i no for sure because no class will be 100% healer and all calsses have to fight including Zealots thats what Mythic said anyways and trust me watch a few vids they can DPS ok

[Nightz]

The Zealot may be capable of good DPS. We just don't know right now. But the fact is, they are one of only 2 healers who don't need to do damage to heal. So they will be expected to be primary healers by most people. That doesn't mean that there won't be a viable DPS build. But you will be fighting against a lot of peoples expectations. It would likely be similar to Retribution paladins in WoW.

If someone wants to be a DPS caster, I would suggest avoiding Zealot. If you'd like to DPS some of the time, at least pick a healer where DPS is required some of the time. Zealots are based around healing and Buffs/debuffs with damage being a distant third as far as group utility goes (at least perception wise).
what you cant do all 3? I think it would be easy buff pre-battle, heal when needed, set a ritual downt o debuff then do dmg and as far as other people wanting me to be their heal-bot i will tell them to go get someone else who actually doesnt mind it being a mindless healing zombie

[Gemini]

I'm not saying they can't do damage, I'm saying it's not a focus of the class. The OP said they were looking for a damage/healing class, and I said from the very limited info we have, it's probably not the best choice on those criteria alone.

[Leontes]

thats not what im saying im saying all classes can DPS i no for sure because no class will be 100% healer and all calsses have to fight including Zealots thats what Mythic said anyways and trust me watch a few vids they can DPS ok

Some of us don't have that faith. Especially considering the class doesn't require damage to be an effective healer.

And in those videos you're referring to; Yes it's possible that the Zealot can use offensive spells. It's whether or not they're given the capability for that damage to be significant enough to not be primary healers. I can guarantee you that whatever crappy damage that Zealot was doing, it was a lot worse than any of the actual damage classes. Not to mention that Zealot let numerous people die just because she was too busy stroking the e-peen, and if she scored any kills whatsoever it's because the game was being played at a convention. I played a Zealot and a Shaman at PAX in August, and I can honestly tell you that the main reason damage was effective in those particular videos is because nobody is healing. They don't know how to play the game, they're just running around nuking each other. And the Zealots nukes were crap.

what you cant do all 3? I think it would be easy buff pre-battle, heal when needed, set a ritual downt o debuff then do dmg and as far as other people wanting me to be their heal-bot i will tell them to go get someone else who actually doesnt mind it being a mindless healing zombie

Dude, seriously, what the hell is wrong with healing? Why do you have to assume that just because you're a primary healing class that means you're some kind of ""? That's the silliest mentality I've ever heard in regards to playing a healing class, which just so happens to be the most difficult, most appreciated (yes, I said APPRECIATED), and most POWERFUL class type in any MMO ever?

I swear I'm never going to understand this obsession with damage. I'm not saying don't play a damage specced Zealot. I'm saying that if they aren't given a viable damage spec, I won't be surprised and you shouldn't be either.

I apologize in advance for my tone, but it's getting crazy how many people think a class that can heal well, buff and debuff, and do lots of damage at the same time is in any way remotely fair. It HAS to suck at something, and being fragile doesn't cut it.

[Dracohouston]

Leontes, they're ALL primary healers.

Every healer is a 100% effective healer, every healer can take care of themselves because they can damage (but never have the potential to be as good as DPS classes). Don't group the other 4 healer classes into some gimped 'secondary healer' bracket.

[Leontes]

Leontes, they're ALL primary healers.

Every healer is a 100% effective healer, every healer can take care of themselves because they can damage (but never have the potential to be as good as DPS classes). Don't group the other 4 healer classes into some gimped 'secondary healer' bracket.

I didn't. I said that I was pretty sure that all 6 would be given primary healer status, or a way to play them as such to be effective. That way, every 4-class race has a balanced group within itself that makes it self-sufficient.

I was brainstorming a way to make multiple healing classes for different styles of players. Traditional, versatile, and tough healers.

I just made the observation, as many others have, that the Runepriest and Zealot don't require any sort of builder for their healing abilities, and they don't seem to be very damage oriented. It's really hard to have faith that Mythic will succeed in turning all 6 into primary healers at this point given that information.

And I won't be surprised if they fail.

[Dracohouston]

I didn't. I said that I was pretty sure that all 6 would be given primary healer status, or a way to play them as such to be effective. That way, every 4-class race has a balanced group within itself that makes it self-sufficient.

I was brainstorming a way to make multiple healing classes for different styles of players. Traditional, versatile, and tough healers.

I just made the observation, as many others have, that the Runepriest and Zealot don't require any sort of builder for their healing abilities, and they don't seem to be very damage oriented. It's really hard to have faith that Mythic will succeed in turning all 6 into primary healers at this point given that information.

And I won't be surprised if they fail.
Can't really tell about the elf careers, but the points from dps is a reward, not some requirement for play. It would be quite easy for them not to mess up the dps/healing hybrids, especially when they aren't going to ever make them as good at DPS as DPS careers.

[viscanti]

what you cant do all 3? I think it would be easy buff pre-battle, heal when needed, set a ritual downt o debuff then do dmg and as far as other people wanting me to be their heal-bot i will tell them to go get someone else who actually doesnt mind it being a mindless healing zombie

Theres a difference between peoples perception and what works in game. I'm telling you that since Zealot is one of 2 healers who don't need to do damage to heal, that they will be expected to be a primary healer. If you're getting riled up now on a message board, imagine how frustrating it's going to be when everyone is screaming at you for heals. Regardless of the effectiveness of your dps build, they will expect you to heal first, buff/debuff second and if you've mastered both of those and have some extra ap they won't mind if you dps some. It's not really that hard of a concept, I'm not saying they can't dps, I'm saying peoples perception of them is that they should heal.

Common sense dictates that Zealot won't have a viable DPS spec. By viable, I mean one that can compete with any of the real DPS classes. Zealots can heal themselves, can buff themselves and others, can debuff enemies and decrease the amount of damage they take significantly. Since none of the DPS classes can do that, it would be imbalanced to have them also be able to DPS as effectively. So not only would a dps spec be fighting against general perception but it would also likely be working against basic game mechanics.

No one is saying you won't be able to do damage as a Zealot. You will likely buff your team before battle, cast HoTs on attacked teammated and then start debuffing with your harbinger and dark ritual, then you'll have a chance to get off a few dots perhaps before it's time to reapply the buffs and cast more heals. I see the class being most effective when you can do all 3.

I'd really recommend not rolling a Zealot if you don't want to heal though. Especially as worked up as you're getting on here, when no one is disagreeing with you. If you get so worked up now, it will be much worse in game when there are people actually telling you how you should play your toon. And if you're not healing, or not healing much, you'll get that a lot in game. It's just the perception of Zealots.

[Nightz]

Well of course they wont be as good as Ranged Dps and Melee Dps im just saying that they can hold their own and no matter what people say i will do dmg AND heal even though to your standards it may not be required for them to heal, which is true. Also i got a question if they dont need to do dmg to heal then Mythic is a hippocrit because they said no class is going to just stand back and heal. So Zealots are just going to stand back heal and buff/debuff. Oh wow so much better.
Im going by what Mythic said which was in War everybody fights then why is the Zealot so different? they cant auto matically heal so basically the Zealot and Runepriest are an exception to this already since they can just stand back and healbot people.

And Dmg is so important to me because if Zealots do have to fight how will they defend themselves with heals? by heal spamming urself and trying to run away thats very warlike....

[Nightz]

Theres a difference between peoples perception and what works in game. I'm telling you that since Zealot is one of 2 healers who don't need to do damage to heal, that they will be expected to be a primary healer. If you're getting riled up now on a message board, imagine how frustrating it's going to be when everyone is screaming at you for heals. Regardless of the effectiveness of your dps build, they will expect you to heal first, buff/debuff second and if you've mastered both of those and have some extra ap they won't mind if you dps some. It's not really that hard of a concept, I'm not saying they can't dps, I'm saying peoples perception of them is that they should heal.

Common sense dictates that Zealot won't have a viable DPS spec. By viable, I mean one that can compete with any of the real DPS classes. Zealots can heal themselves, can buff themselves and others, can debuff enemies and decrease the amount of damage they take significantly. Since none of the DPS classes can do that, it would be imbalanced to have them also be able to DPS as effectively. So not only would a dps spec be fighting against general perception but it would also likely be working against basic game mechanics.

No one is saying you won't be able to do damage as a Zealot. You will likely buff your team before battle, cast HoTs on attacked teammated and then start debuffing with your harbinger and dark ritual, then you'll have a chance to get off a few dots perhaps before it's time to reapply the buffs and cast more heals. I see the class being most effective when you can do all 3.

I'd really recommend not rolling a Zealot if you don't want to heal though. Especially as worked up as you're getting on here, when no one is disagreeing with you. If you get so worked up now, it will be much worse in game when there are people actually telling you how you should play your toon. And if you're not healing, or not healing much, you'll get that a lot in game. It's just the perception of Zealots.

I dont mind healing i just want to be ble to hold my own....Oh and people can scream at me for heals all they want but if they scream the stunties are gonna smack their head off im very opinionated about certain things and let the people scream it wont will be screams of pain if they dont show me some respect. I will do my main role as support i just want to DPS a bit too.

PLus the game isnt very released yet so know one can tell for sure.

Let me be optomistic

[Delillo]

Its funny how perception works. I frankly saw the zealot as the one of the most offensive healers.

Just because RunePriests and Zealots don't have mechanic like Waaaugh, doesn't mean that they will be better healers. Yes their heals are "unconditional" but the Shaman and Disciple have unconditional heals too- its just that they have dynamics like waaaugh that make their heals better in some way. You could just as easily argue that a zealot will be the worst healer because he is limited to baseline / unconditional heals.

The reason the Zealot seemed like an "offensive" healer is 1) The Harbinger seems to be the class's defining ability and it is an offensive debuff that improves 2) the zealots rituals which are area of effect DEBUFFS- i.e. they efffect the enemy. Thats kind of the definition of offense.

I think many people will try very hard to make disciples primary healers because MMO vets suspect that high armor + heals actually wins the day for the healer role in the field (and that offense from the healer slot is over-rated).

[Leontes]

And Dmg is so important to me because if Zealots do have to fight how will they defend themselves with heals? by heal spamming urself and trying to run away thats very warlike....

Oh they'll have damage. It's just whether or not it's good and viable damage that will protect you in that sort of situation. If you're planning on playing this game solo, I really really think it's a bad idea to play a Zealot at this point. The other healing classes are dependent on damage to be at their best, and classes like the Archmage and Shaman are fitting what Mythic said their healers were going to do.

Also, everyone tries to fall back on Paul Barnett's words about "not just standing in the back and healing". They always try to make this sound like the only thing that's different from healing is doing damage, which is definitely not the case. Buffs and Debuffs are going to be more difficult to land than you think, and having aoe Rituals is going to be a job in itself. Just like how raw healing spells aren't the only way to be an effective support class, raw damage spells aren't the only thing you can do outside of "standing in the back".

Oh, look at my signature by the way. I LOVE standing in the back and healing. Makes me laugh when 4-5 people try their best to take out of one of my friends and fail miserably while I'm at half mana. It's a twisted sense of griefing that I can't get enough of.


Let me be optomistic

Okay, fair enough. I agree that the class would be better if it were a debuffing damage class that fueled its heals through its other actions. Having a 3rd dynamic on top of a healing and debuffing role could only add to the depth of the class and the game as a whole.

But I seriously won't be surprised if they make damage an unviable factor for the Zealot, and I don't think anybody else should be upset about it either.

Don't ever take Paul Barnett seriously. When he says "Every class can do damage!", he doesn't mention whether or not that's significant damage to verify Mythic creating an entire playstyle out of it. Because as I said, they have to give you the option to do damage. If the Zealot has no offensive options whatsoever besides Scourge and dagger pokes, then there's no point even trying.

As I posted in the other thread, it really looks like Mythic is giving three different types of players class options on Order and Destruction:

Runepriest/Zealot = Traditional healer style, buff/debuff class with primary healing capabilities. Totally what we're used to and draws players like me into the role with ease.

Archmage/Shaman = New style of healer where heavy damage fuels healing capabilities. A fresh twist on the old style of play and brings a lot of utility through damage and healing to a group.

Warrior Priest/Disciple of Khaine = Hybrid style. Tough healer with strong damage and survivability skills. Good for players who enjoyed hybrid healers of other games in a melee package with big weapons and big armor.

That's just what it looks like at this point.

But you have every right to be optimistic.

[Leontes]

Its funny how perception works. I frankly saw the zealot as the one of the most offensive healers.

Just because RunePriests and Zealots don't have mechanic like Waaaugh, doesn't mean that they will be better healers. Yes their heals are "unconditional" but the Shaman and Disciple have unconditional heals too- its just that they have dynamics like waaaugh that make their heals better in some way. You could just as easily argue that a zealot will be the worst healer because he is limited to baseline / unconditional heals.

The reason the Zealot seemed like an "offensive" healer is 1) The Harbinger seems to be the class's defining ability and it is an offensive debuff that improves 2) the zealots rituals which are area of effect DEBUFFS- i.e. they efffect the enemy. Thats kind of the definition of offense.

I think many people will try very hard to make disciples primary healers because MMO vets suspect that high armor + heals actually wins the day for the healer role in the field (and that offense from the healer slot is over-rated).

That's a good assessment. I remember when I first found out that Zealots had no Waaagh! mechanic I figured they might be worse healers, but the debuffing system would be too important of a role for me to not want to do it. I suppose over time I've justified their lack of a mechanic to mean that they're just more powerful overall, and forgot about the possibility that they could just have worse baseline abilities.

Maybe I'm the one only hearing what I want to hear and being super optimistic :o

And I agree with you about Disciples and Warrior Priests. Their toughness alone makes me consider playing one because there's always the chance that their toughness trumps everything about them being possibly "worse" healers in RvR. Dead healers don't heal, etc.

[Nightz]

That's a good assessment. I remember when I first found out that Zealots had no Waaagh! mechanic I figured they might be worse healers, but the debuffing system would be too important of a role for me to not want to do it. I suppose over time I've justified their lack of a mechanic to mean that they're just more powerful overall, and forgot about the possibility that they could just have worse baseline abilities.

Maybe I'm the one only hearing what I want to hear and being super optimistic :o

And I agree with you about Disciples and Warrior Priests. Their toughness alone makes me consider playing one because there's always the chance that their toughness trumps everything about them being possibly "worse" healers in RvR. Dead healers don't heal, etc.

Thank you :p!! yeah but some rituals do dmg thats the last thing i want to say

[Dracohouston]

Thank you :p!! yeah but some rituals do dmg thats the last thing i want to say
Rituals only do damage if you have a certain tactic loaded.

[viscanti]

Rituals only do damage if you have a certain tactic loaded.

And Ritual of Exsangination, if it's still in the game. You still have to give up a debuff to do the aoe damage though. It's the same with most of the other damage mechanisms of the Zealot. You have to essentially give up a benefit to the group in order to do more damage. Like the tactic that decreases healing done but increases damage.

[Nightz]

i checked war resource says nothing about either of those things

[viscanti]

i checked war resource says nothing about either of those things

Try searching war resource zealot page for "Winds of Chaos" and "Ritual of Exsanguination". Ritual of Exsanguination is the third listed ability on the list. I don't see how you missed it. You would have had to scroll down to the tactics section to find the tactic.

Here's the site you claimed didn't have it. http://www.war-resource.com/careers/zealot.php#abilities
You'll note that both are listed.

[Gemini]

At this point, it really dosn't matter what a convention build from months ago had or not. There may be rituals in game come release that do damage, there may not be. Same with the tactic that makes ritual do damage.

[viscanti]

At this point, it really dosn't matter what a convention build from months ago had or not. There may be rituals in game come release that do damage, there may not be. Same with the tactic that makes ritual do damage.

I agree. I said in a previous post, "if it's still in the game". Nightz was claiming that the particular mechanism was never talked about and was not present on war resource. It has been mentioned and is as far as we know it, still in the game. It may change, but as far as we know it, Zealots have to trade off healing ability or buffs for the ability to do damage. As is seen with the abilities and tactics from all the conventions and game play videos.

[Phiphler]

Judging from the most recent zealot footage, Rituals got changed from being "debuff harbinger bearer, buff group" to "groundbased debuff, which harbinger bearer suffers more from".

And I also do NOT think that zealot/RP will be squishier then Shaman/Archmage. They are at closer proximity to enemies, and should have more tools to survive, or simply more armor.

[Nightz]

*EDITED for content*

[viscanti]

*EDITED for content*

In order to use the Ritual of Exsanguination, you can not use any of the other rituals which are debuffs. That means, you have to give up the ability to debuff in order to do damage with rituals. In order to use Winds of Chaos, you have to give up another tactic.

No one is saying Zealots can't do damage. But for them to be stronger damage dealers, they have to give up some of their ability to heal or to buff/debuff. That's simple game mechanics, and common sense. Since they are the strongest buffer/debuffer (on their side) and the only healer who doesn't need to do damage to heal effectively (on their side), most groups will want Zealots for those 2 things. If the Zealot is good, he/she will also be able to do damage when he/she doesn't need to be healing and buffing/debuffing. The best Zealots will do heal, buff/debuff and do damage. Focusing on any one of the 3 would make them weaker. But focusing specifically on damage would take away from their 2 greatest strengths.

[Vonja]

*EDITED for content*

[Phiphler]

*Hands out Aspirins to those who got edited*

Now, don't kid yourself. Juding from abilities and impressions from conventions, Zealots seems to be one hell of a supporter, but with abysmal damage. Unless the recently implemented masteries fixed this, you better sharpen your social skills so you can group yourself to rank 40 :)

[Nightz]

*Hands out Aspirins to those who got edited*

Now, don't kid yourself. Juding from abilities and impressions from conventions, Zealots seems to be one hell of a supporter, but with abysmal damage. Unless the recently implemented masteries fixed this, you better sharpen your social skills so you can group yourself to rank 40 :)
I dont have social skills problems im just having a heated debate thats all :D

[Phiphler]

Sorry, I wasnt implying anyone in this thread had insufficient social skills, Im just saying that you will need to easily cooperate with people who may think of as idiots ingame, thats all.