Shield for tanking

[Hilbert]

Quoting from Eleazar's swordmaster database:


"To stick with our hypothetical Swordmaster, for example, let's rejoin him after he's spent several of his specialization points to gain further Mastery of his defensive path (Path of Vaul). Once his Mastery increases sufficiently, he'll see that a new attack has become unlocked called Crushing Advance. This ability is a shield slam that not only does damage and interrupts casting but also briefly increases his chance to block attacks further bolstering his defense. In order to purchase it, he'll need to divert his next point away from increasing his Mastery further, and spend it to gain the attack instead. This is only one such example of an additional supplemential Skill, players will also have access to improved tactics and a powerful Level 4 Morale in their MasteryFor the astute you’ll have also noticed that the Path of Vaul seems to have a focus on using a “Sheild” instead of a “Greatsword” tricky eh?"


So, it looks like the swordmaster's defensive "talent tree" is going to be oriented around using a sword and shield. Since the swordmaster fits the tanking archetype, I imagine that most high end guilds and other min/maxers will expect swordmasters to be using a shield. The greatsword that is so central to the look and lore of the career, may end up being associated with unskilled players and noobs. Personally I find this pretty disappointing. I'm not going to roll a swordmaster if you need to equip a shield to tank effectively. But we'll have to wait and see how things work out.

[ChosenOne]

I disagree, the swordmaster with a greatsword shows us a new style of tanking. Protecting allies from ranged attacks. Its a tricky looking thing and may require a bit of skill but those who are skilled at such will definately not be called "noob".

[Duty]

I think this is going to be met by the typical "it's an MMO and they have to bend the lore a bit to fit the game." I have to agree with that point, although I can see that there could be other ways of increasing the defense of the SM without requiring the use of a shield.

Plus, who says the best spec for them won't involve the greatsword? Perhaps the SM's shield spec is a niche thing used for specific group builds that are unpopular, or just for PvE. We don't know yet.

Still, the concern is warranted, the greatsword should be the primary tool of the swordmaster, just be aware that lore is meant to be bent, it's meant to be changed. It would be a dead IP if it didn't change here and there.

ChosenOne makes another good point: good players are good players...period. There's more then just peeler/bodyguard tanks, and good players are capable of speccing themselves to fit their role. They're even good enough to redefine their role if needed. That's just how good players are, they spec into something and make the best of what they have.

[ChosenOne]

We already know there are some greatsword only skills. Such as the bladeflurry skill used infront of the swordmaster. It blocks or deflects all incoming ranged damage and damages anyone in melee range as well as knocks them back.

Plus the two hand user seems to do pretty good damage which is always needed but a bonus of being able to taunt as well. As long as its played well it is a viable choice.

[Dagoth]

Now it reallly depends, if the greatsword path is focused on doing damage like an Arms Warrior, or if it is also focused on tanking, just a different way (like it should).

[Delolith]

Actually the skill not only deflects ranged but all kinds of attacks...even melee and even spells (disrupts). We will have to see how much dmg it does. Even if it didn't do any dmg it would fit its role....now add a bit of dmg and you have a very nice all around skill..

Delolith

[Hilbert]

I do hope that it is possible to spec for tanking while still using a greatsword. On the bright side, we know that the ability wall of darting steel, which increases parry rate, can only be used with a greatsword. Vortex, the knockback move, is also exlusive to greatsword wielders. But the quote in my original post specifically says that the defensive talent tree is focused on shield abilities - including a shield slam move that stuns and increases block rate. I've got a feeling that greatsword swordmasters will be akin to arms warriors in WoW, while sword+shield swordmasters will be closer to prot warriors. I guess that would be ok, sort of... even though it basically rules out a greatsword swordmaster as a main tank in high end pve. lets just hope that greatsword users don't become anything like ret paladins.

[ChosenOne]

I do hope that it is possible to spec for tanking while still using a greatsword. On the bright side, we know that the ability wall of darting steel, which increases parry rate, can only be used with a greatsword. Vortex, the knockback move, is also exlusive to greatsword wielders. But the quote in my original post specifically says that the defensive talent tree is focused on shield abilities - including a shield slam move that stuns and increases block rate. I've got a feeling that greatsword swordmasters will be akin to arms warriors in WoW, while sword+shield swordmasters will be closer to prot warriors. I guess that would be ok, sort of... even though it basically rules out a greatsword swordmaster as a main tank in high end pve. lets just hope that greatsword users don't become anything like ret paladins.

If you are planning on going to some PvE dungeon that would require you to go sword and board then perhaps just respec for that. We dont know that much about it yet but I dont believe respecing will be extremely expensive. Even if you are a greatsword swordmaster you can still carry a one hander and shield on you to use when necessary.

[Solace]

I think you are thinking too much in terms of wow gameplay. WAR being a pvp specific game, there probably will be a much wider acceptance of specs.

But really its hard to speculate the role of a true tank in WAR's PvP yet. A few things we dont really get a good feeling for are: Will it be necassary for tanks to protect healers at all times in PvP? Or will our dmg play a larger role in pvp fights, and require us to fight more? From DAOC experience, tanks are "usually" the last target in a pvp fight. Healers => Support => Melee. So if you are running around with a shield and not taking dmg it might be a little useless, especially if by the time you are the target you dont have any healers left. So unless you are using a shield for strictly defending your healer(s), I would have the greatsword out for pure dmg. However, this is all speculation at this point, and what I experienced in DAOC. I think once the NDA is lifted all our worries will be lifted.

[PokcheK]

I think you are thinking too much in terms of wow gameplay. WAR being a pvp specific game, there probably will be a much wider acceptance of specs.

But really its hard to speculate the role of a true tank in WAR's PvP yet. A few things we dont really get a good feeling for are: Will it be necassary for tanks to protect healers at all times in PvP? Or will our dmg play a larger role in pvp fights, and require us to fight more? From DAOC experience, tanks are "usually" the last target in a pvp fight. Healers => Support => Melee. So if you are running around with a shield and not taking dmg it might be a little useless, especially if by the time you are the target you dont have any healers left. So unless you are using a shield for strictly defending your healer(s), I would have the greatsword out for pure dmg. However, this is all speculation at this point, and what I experienced in DAOC. I think once the NDA is lifted all our worries will be lifted.


I agree, and am in the same boat of sorts with the BG. Id like the option to wreck people with the halberd, and still have the freedom to use a shield and whatever one hander.

If youre not soaking damage then 2 hander... if youre building a front line of tanks for some large scale world pvp then sword and board. Another thing is that tactics change all the time... someone will think or something innovative and it will become the standard tactic for attack. Having the options to go 2 hander vs sword and board if different situations looks very promising.

[thestarheart]

I think you are thinking too much in terms of wow gameplay. WAR being a pvp specific game, there probably will be a much wider acceptance of specs.

But really its hard to speculate the role of a true tank in WAR's PvP yet. A few things we dont really get a good feeling for are: Will it be necassary for tanks to protect healers at all times in PvP? Or will our dmg play a larger role in pvp fights, and require us to fight more? From DAOC experience, tanks are "usually" the last target in a pvp fight. Healers => Support => Melee. So if you are running around with a shield and not taking dmg it might be a little useless, especially if by the time you are the target you dont have any healers left. So unless you are using a shield for strictly defending your healer(s), I would have the greatsword out for pure dmg. However, this is all speculation at this point, and what I experienced in DAOC. I think once the NDA is lifted all our worries will be lifted.

I think damage is already made more important as there are no straight up healers from what we are told and can tell so far. So you figure if there isn't as much healing to keep the pace going there will be more damage or people will be able to take more damage.

My main concern for the swordmaster is using sword skills as opposed to taking a lot of damage in larger RvR situations where huge groups zerg around demolishing everything in their paths, I think if the swordmaster can't take much damage in those situations you will see people relying on ironbreakers and knights of the blazing sun more often than not.

[Dastion]

In DAoC most specs were accepted and there was little pigeonholing of specs. Mainly it occured in the case of FOTM specs. Of course, for a tank your spec really only determined what weapons you used and not much else, so this game should be a bit different in that aspect. But as long as you are able to perform your role you'll be fine.

[Nerothos]

I'm on the boat with those that say the Greatsword should remain the Swordmasters primary concern. I sincerely hope that EA Mythic will have viable tanking methods using the Greatsword, as I'll have to jump on the wagon and join my friends in Destruction if I can't get my 2h tanking goodness.

It's a symbol, an icon and an indicator of the class. Without it, it's not a Swordmaster, but a cookie cutter warrior. It disgusts me.

[Eleazar]

I don't mind the option of having a shield. In DAoC shields shut down ranged classes like archers pretty well so it would be nice. Seems like a lot of the abilities are 'Greatsword only' so I don't think people will mind if you have your greatsword on most of the time. It will be nice to see the tiny niche archetype mentality of WoW disappear when everyone is in game.

[Scirrocco]

I'm hoping that 2h tanking is just as viable as 2h, just different. 2h could be more dodgy, while 1h and shield could have its own uses and strengths.

[Tzepic]

Well if you do have to use a Shield they atleast will be pretty cool looking.
http://www.war-resource.com/images/conceptart/520538_20080823_screen029.jpg?PHPSESSID=533778a5aa 46a1cbb886ec6da641c4f7
http://www.war-resource.com/images/conceptart/520538_20080823_screen030.jpg?PHPSESSID=533778a5aa 46a1cbb886ec6da641c4f7

[VeriusCarth]

I imagine this is being misconstrued, to be honest.

Swordmaster is a tank first and foremost. If he's going to be iconic, he's going to be using a Great Sword.
That leads me to believe he'll have two different ways of tanking, one tree that uses the shield, and one that uses the Great Sword.
Thus, I imagine that they'll be good for different things, or that it depends on your preference / play style, on which you pick.

It's not as though he'll have a DPS tree, and a Tanking tree. They're all tanking, they just have different emphasizes. He may be doing more damage with one tree, but he's still a tank, and he'll still be acting like a tank. He may just not be the main tank.

So I wouldn't fret that the Swordmaster is going to put down his Great Sword in favor of a shield any time soon. ;)

[Ranien]

According to the grab bag using a shield will only give a few additional options for tanking while in turn they don't take as severe of a defensive hit while wielding a greatweapon as the other tanks would while tanking.

[Enso O]

A swordmaster without his ceremonial blade is like a samurai without a Katana. They have to at least make a option that is effective enough to have the 2 handed ceremonial sword. I would say as a number one tank a swordmaster might need a shield. In the end though it matters on your aims as a player and what kind of group you choose to hang with.

I will be in it for pvp mostly so a offensive swordmaster will probly work. I will also be hanging out with a Knight of the Blazing Sun so I will spec offense while he more defensive. My guess would be a offensive based tank would have more active defensive skills than passive.

Real swordsmanship is no different than that anyways. There is no defense or offense they are both one and the same time. A swordsman who reacts to a attack and doesnt see the moment and acts on the attack is a dead man. Your only other option in "realistic swordsmanship" is armor plated meat shield.

Then again we have to ask a question is a fully plated warrior who wields a sword a swordsman? Im sure its a type of sword use but to say that is swordsmanship ie.. bujitsu or fenceing is pretty inaccurate. What type of swordsman is the swordmaster is the question I guess.

To make this universal I would say the swordmaster could be any of plated, greatsword, bujitsu, or european fencer. In the end my romantic view of a swordmaster would be more leaning toward bujitsu but others would beg to differ.

Give everyone a option that is functional in any certain situation. Dont know how possible that is but im sure they will do there best.

[Delolith]

A swordmaster without his ceremonial blade is like a samurai without a Katana. They have to at least make a option that is effective enough to have the 2 handed ceremonial sword. I would say as a number one tank a swordmaster might need a shield. In the end though it matters on your aims as a player and what kind of group you choose to hang with.

I will be in it for pvp mostly so a offensive swordmaster will probly work. I will also be hanging out with a Knight of the Blazing Sun so I will spec offense while he more defensive. My guess would be a offensive based tank would have more active defensive skills than passive.

Real swordsmanship is no different than that anyways. There is no defense or offense they are both one and the same time. A swordsman who reacts to a attack and doesnt see the moment and acts on the attack is a dead man. Your only other option in "realistic swordsmanship" is armor plated meat shield.

Then again we have to ask a question is a fully plated warrior who wields a sword a swordsman? Im sure its a type of sword use but to say that is swordsmanship ie.. bujitsu or fenceing is pretty inaccurate. What type of swordsman is the swordmaster is the question I guess.

To make this universal I would say the swordmaster could be any of plated, greatsword, bujitsu, or european fencer. In the end my romantic view of a swordmaster would be more leaning toward bujitsu but others would beg to differ.

Give everyone a option that is functional in any certain situation. Dont know how possible that is but im sure they will do there best.

Actually the Ithilmar armor worn by swordmasters is far from the normal plate armor you have as a comparison. The Ithilmar is woven into cloth and makes a very light armor light as cloth and tough as steel. That means it bend and distorts according to your moves...apart from the obvious solid parts like breastplate which anyway do not need to contort with your moves. So a Swordmaster is certainly a swordsman...not a plated guy that depends on how much his armor will absorb and not his mobility or swordskill.

Delolith

P.S in the book defenders of Ulthuan has a scene with a female swordmaster meditating and performing her routine practise. It will remind you mostly a clothed dressed saolin warrior (or better Wu shu practitioner with a huge 2handed!) not a medieval knight doned in full plate.

[Unforsaken]

Actually thelatest Swordmaster video discusses this. He will not use a shield like the Black Orc (clearly states this). His dodges and parries and balance are his way of mitigating damage.

I do not see a Swordmaster needing a shield, nor has there been a screen shot showing them use one. However the Knight of the Blazing sun and Black orcs have many screen shots with shields.

Swordmasters just work differently and I love the concept. its about time someone started thinking outside the box.

[ChosenOne]

Actually thelatest Swordmaster video discusses this. He will not use a shield like the Black Orc (clearly states this). His dodges and parries and balance are his way of mitigating damage.

I do not see a Swordmaster needing a shield, nor has there been a screen shot showing them use one. However the Knight of the Blazing sun and Black orcs have many screen shots with shields.

Swordmasters just work differently and I love the concept. its about time someone started thinking outside the box.

You seriously need to read the DEV chatlogs from the Warcry chats. They TOLD us swordmasters will have a sword and board possibility. It wont have as many skills as the dual use method and that will show the swordmaster focus on greatswords but the debate on whether swordmasters have the ability to use a shield is pretty much over.

There is a difference between thinking outside the box and bashing one's head on the brick wall.

[Mapex]

You seriously need to read the DEV chatlogs from the Warcry chats. They TOLD us swordmasters will have a sword and board possibility. It wont have as many skills as the dual use method and that will show the swordmaster focus on greatswords but the debate on whether swordmasters have the ability to use a shield is pretty much over.

There is a difference between thinking outside the box and bashing one's head on the brick wall.
We all know that all of the tank archetypes will have various weapon combination choices, mainly sword and board vs two-hander sword/axe/mace/flail/what have you. I don't believe this is debatable.

In the SM's case, it'll be sword and board and two-handed sword for sure, maybe they might throw in dual wielding who knows, but we only can prove the existence of the first two combinations. With that said, every single video and screenshot I have personally seen is an SM with a Greatsword and nothing else.

The devs give you, the player, the option to become a more traditional tank with sword and board, but they intend the SM to be an offensive tank who relies more on parrying and dodging than raw damage mitigation and absorption through armor and shield. Both setups will be very viable. Also, since tanks are generally meant to be the slayers of melee damage dealers (like Marauders and Witch Hunters), the Greatsword path will definitely help the SM better keep the enemy melee damage dealers at bay due to its increased damage, which will keep his team protected.

Killing someone faster or preventing them from being able to do damage are just as effective tools to protect your teammates as is standing in the way and taking an onslaught of blows.

[ChosenOne]

We all know that all of the tank archetypes will have various weapon combination choices, mainly sword and board vs two-hander sword/axe/mace/flail/what have you. I don't believe this is debatable.

In the SM's case, it'll be sword and board and two-handed sword for sure, maybe they might throw in dual wielding who knows, but we only can prove the existence of the first two combinations. With that said, every single video and screenshot I have personally seen is an SM with a Greatsword and nothing else.

The devs give you, the player, the option to become a more traditional tank with sword and board, but they intend the SM to be an offensive tank who relies more on parrying and dodging than raw damage mitigation and absorption through armor and shield. Both setups will be very viable. Also, since tanks are generally meant to be the slayers of melee damage dealers (like Marauders and Witch Hunters), the Greatsword path will definitely help the SM better keep the enemy melee damage dealers at bay due to its increased damage, which will keep his team protected.

Killing someone faster or preventing them from being able to do damage are just as effective tools to protect your teammates as is standing in the way and taking an onslaught of blows.

I wouldnt disagree with anything you posted except that its the swordmasters damage that is his protecting factor when he is wielding a two hander. We have seen two abilities that seem to be "area affect" tanking. One blocks incoming missiles and another is a knockback affect. Its still tanking with a two hander just not making a target focus on you, its basically understanding that they Arent going to target you and you can still help protect others despite such.

[Unforsaken]

You seriously need to read the DEV chatlogs from the Warcry chats. They TOLD us swordmasters will have a sword and board possibility. It wont have as many skills as the dual use method and that will show the swordmaster focus on greatswords but the debate on whether swordmasters have the ability to use a shield is pretty much over.

There is a difference between thinking outside the box and bashing one's head on the brick wall.

So does this mean Mythic doesn't have clue which they are going with the Swordmaster?

Clearly stated in the interview video displaying Swardmasters. The person giving the tutorial clearly states when asked about tanking compared to Black orcs that a Black Orc uses a heavy armor and hulking shield, BUT the Swordmaster uses dodges and parries (great balance and grace) for his damage mitigation. This is what was stated in the video.

So that person is incorrect?

[Mapex]

I wouldnt disagree with anything you posted except that its the swordmasters damage that is his protecting factor when he is wielding a two hander. We have seen two abilities that seem to be "area affect" tanking. One blocks incoming missiles and another is a knockback affect. Its still tanking with a two hander just not making a target focus on you, its basically understanding that they Arent going to target you and you can still help protect others despite such.
Never said "the swordsmasters damage is his protecting factor". I said it is one of his protecting factors. His protecting factor is his ability to parry/avoid/block damage incoming to him or his team. Taunting will still exist even with a two-hander. There's no reason why he wouldn't want to taunt with a greatsword as he's still the best HE able to take the damage. He has some abilities that protect his teammates in an AOE fashion, but he still wishes for the enemy to go after him because his abilities protect him best. However, instead of relying on mitigating incoming damage, he chooses to nullify damage completely.

[Delolith]

So does this mean Mythic doesn't have clue which they are going with the Swordmaster?

Clearly stated in the interview video displaying Swardmasters. The person giving the tutorial clearly states when asked about tanking compared to Black orcs that a Black Orc uses a heavy armor and hulking shield, BUT the Swordmaster uses dodges and parries (great balance and grace) for his damage mitigation. This is what was stated in the video.

So that person is incorrect?

ChosenOne is right mate. If you go read the beta update #4 for Swordmaster class you will find this:

"...every Sword Master will be an able tank, capable of absorbing much more damage then a lighter fighter. However someone who specializes in the Sword Master’s defensive path will find that they are generally more durable, able to hold aggro better in PvE and able to defend their friends more efficiently in an RvR scenario. Meanwhile a Sword Master who chooses to go a more offensive route will still be able to take a hit, but may find themselves hard pressed to defend & protect as well as their counterpart, admittedly they will be hitting quite a bit harder as a trade off."

"...(a Swordmaster would find that their Taunt and Guard abilities are Core). These Core skills automatically improve as you gain ranks; once you learn them, they won't require any further investments. Moving beyond that, each career will have three paths available to Master, each of which emphasizes one specific facet of the career's abilities. While the Core skills represent a more automatic progress, the pathed skills are heavily player-controlled."

"Graceful Strike, a melee attack which causes monsters to hate you more than normal would be a base ability that falls into the Path of Vaul, which is the Sword Master's defensive-oriented Mastery. Every Swordmaster, whether or not they've specialized in that path, would have access to that ability. However, after a certain point, the damage and additional hatred will have reached their full potential, and will stop increasing. If the player then decides to use part of their specialization to increase their Mastery in the Path of Vaul the damage and extra hate will increase above that cap - and the further they specialize into that Mastery, the greater and greater the effectiveness becomes, however this ability still retains some use to players of other Paths who will find it useful for the additional Hatred generated since it is still better then many of the standard Melee attacks."

"To stick with our hypothetical Swordmaster, for example, let's rejoin him after he's spent several of his specialization points to gain further Mastery of his defensive path (Path of Vaul). Once his Mastery increases sufficiently, he'll see that a new attack has become unlocked called Crushing Advance. This ability is a shield slam that not only does damage and interrupts casting but also briefly increases his chance to block attacks further bolstering his defense. In order to purchase it, he'll need to divert his next point away from increasing his Mastery further, and spend it to gain the attack instead. This is only one such example of an additional supplemential Skill, players will also have access to improved tactics and a powerful Level 4 Morale in their MasteryFor the astute you’ll have also noticed that the Path of Vaul seems to have a focus on using a “Sheild” instead of a “Greatsword” tricky eh?"

So like ChosenOne said...our defenssive path...the Path of Vaul will be a specialisation to board and sword combo.

Delolith

[Unforsaken]

ChosenOne is right mate. If you go read the beta update #4 for Swordmaster class you will find this:



I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here. What I find confusing is the Swordmaster video recently released showcases the Swordmaster. During this interview, the interviewer asks about how this class relates to other tanks, specifically mentioned a Black orc for comparison. The Mythic rep cleary states that Swordmaster's use dodge/parry/avoidance to tank (mitigate damage). He then goes on to state that they do not tank like a Black orc with hulking armor and massive shields.

This stuff is still in beta, perhaps this was changed? Unless Im hearing things. I rewound the film several times, and I still don't see one single comment about Swordmaster using a shield, actually quite the opposite.

So in short I am not saying ChosenOne is incorrect; I am saying that it does contradict with the latest Swordmaster class overview video.

[Unforsaken]

I stand corrected

[Payne]

EDIT: sorry.
(accidentally broke a rule)

[Gemini]

if anyone else has noticed. there's a youtube (betaleaked) video of an SM with a shield. so that pretty much puts the arguement to rest. But now i can't find it. Maybe it was removed

Talking about leaked material is against forum policy, just so you know. However, we already knew SM got shields, because Mythic said so a while ago.

[Payne]

sorry it wasn't like i leaked it myself. but ill steer clear from that from now. woops:confused:

[Madelyne]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BML4HEJI6Aw&feature=related

Thought I'd share the info ;P If you havn't seen it yet, the teammate helping him is a shield using SM. Interesting looking, but I still plan on using a greatsword of course :P

And I'm not sure if they mean for the swordmasters to be Swordmasters of Hoeth or just "swordmasters", thus the use of 1 handed swords as well (though they are known in lore to be masters of any weapon) :O

[Gemini]

I imagine they are Swordmasters of Hoeth, seeing as how they are magical and all, the 1h/shield is just a small bend to give players that option.