Avoiding Black Orcs

[BobTheOrc]

Thinking about this, I realize from the abilities I've seen about Black orcs, they look like they will be really annoying. Disarm, taunt, throwing the clothies your attacking away, doing tons of attacks that mess up you. Knock you down.

One thing I'm concerned about is that in large areas, people will just go around black orcs I realize that you will move with them, but still.

[Dracohouston]

Thinking about this, I realize from the abilities I've seen about Black orcs, they look like they will be really annoying. Disarm, taunt, throwing the clothies your attacking away, doing tons of attacks that mess up you. Knock you down.

One thing I'm concerned about is that in large areas, people will just go around black orcs I realize that you will move with them, but still.
Wherever a hammerer is stealing a magus's lunch money.
Wherever a shaman is being picked on by a hat crazed witch hunter
You will be there, severely disapproving.

[Gemini]

Wherever a hammerer is stealing a magus's lunch money.
Wherever a shaman is being picked on by a hat crazed witch hunter
You will be there, severely disapproving.

Exactly, if they try to run, you snare them and beat on them a lot. Got a Witch Hunter hunting your Witch Elf companion? Bash him in the head until he is sent to see Sigmar himself.

[BobTheOrc]

So if I am close enough to them will it just freeze them in place? So they can't escape?

I can't wait until WAR so I can see how this works. Ima severely disapprove some stunties into the ground.

[Dracohouston]

So if I am close enough to them will it just freeze them in place? So they can't escape?

I can't wait until WAR so I can see how this works. Ima severely disapprove some stunties into the ground.
Well, there's plenty of ways to slow them down, knock them down etc. You said so yourself :) If they're attacking your teammates, if they run off because you are running at them, your job is done. Crack open a cold one.

[Endemikus]

This exact same thread came up in the Chosen forums.

I think the best bet is to simply babysit your healer in situations where you can be forced into redundancy. If the melee DPS still chooses to avoid you, then I guess you're doing your job just by standing there. Ezmode :D

Beating this problem and others like it (kiting) without a team to back you up is probably going to be very, very difficult. There, I said it.

[BobTheOrc]

I'll just get me some choppas! Or be a DPS Blorc. Even though that would be hard and rather pointless. I'm going to try out both Classes when we go to open beta. First I thought choppa then Blorc then not sure then Blorc up until now and now I'm not sure.

[Dracohouston]

This exact same thread came up in the Chosen forums.

I think the best bet is to simply babysit your healer in situations where you can be forced into redundancy. If the melee DPS still chooses to avoid you, then I guess you're doing your job just by standing there. Ezmode :D

Beating this problem and others like it (kiting) without a team to back you up is probably going to be very, very difficult. There, I said it.
A supportive role like healing or tanking makes you only as good as the people you support. At least you can always equip your great weapon and go smack some guy if your team isn't helping you help them. :)

[Endemikus]

A supportive role like healing or tanking makes you only as good as the people you support. At least you can always equip your great weapon and go smack some guy if your team isn't helping you help them. :)

Yeah you're right. I've never played a tank before and the prospective Holy Priest I rolled in WoW quickly turned into a Shadow monster as soon as I realised how awesome SP was; I've never actually played a support character :(

I hope (other than my friends who roll with me) I get the opportunity to group with/befriend some decent players so that my support efforts aren't wasted. I don't mind the idea of being avoided as long as my party is making up for it by taking names and kicking a$$.

[Scratch]

Being that groups will tend to stick together, I doubt a tank will ever find himself outside of combat for long unless he meets a kiter. Even then, shouldn't be too hard.

Sticking near a healer is the key to letting anyone engage in a tank if that doesn't work out.

[Duty]

A supportive role like healing or tanking makes you only as good as the people you support. At least you can always equip your great weapon and go smack some guy if your team isn't helping you help them. :)

Bah, not with Mythic's healers. This time it's going to be different. It's why the new healing system is going to be so great.

[Dracohouston]

Bah, not with Mythic's healers. This time it's going to be different. It's why the new healing system is going to be so great.
Being able to dps does not change the fact that healing others is less effective when those others are huge noobs and can't dps. This isn't a radical new system where healing a noob that fails at pvp magically teaches them how to play.

edit:
What I mean is, the worse your team is, the less returns you get for postponing their deaths. It scales up with how awesome your team is. :)

[Ravenlaw]

Crack open a cold one.

This phrase has new meaning with disturbing imagery in this game... but I can still see a Black Orc doing it...

[Dracohouston]

This phrase has new meaning with disturbing imagery in this game... but I can still see a Black Orc doing it...
Every time some DE poster starts talking about cold ones I think about one of the old strong bad emails. A one that is not cold, is scarcely a one at all.

[BobTheOrc]

I think ima STFU about DPS and tanking and just try them both. However I must be an orc regardless.

Anyway, I heard tanks will kill DPS, I think you could even solo one by knocking him down and DPSing him and disarming. Problem is How will I get any kills doing my duty to defend my group? Ill have to go 2hand if I don't have a group but In WAR as an orc im sure I always will have a group of people that aren't stupid like alliance.

[Duty]

Being able to dps does not change the fact that healing others is less effective when those others are huge noobs and can't dps. This isn't a radical new system where healing a noob that fails at pvp magically teaches them how to play.

edit:
What I mean is, the worse your team is, the less returns you get for postponing their deaths. It scales up with how awesome your team is. :)

You said about tanks that they can at least equip a great weapon and do some damage. Which by your argument, is pointless as a DPSer is always going to do more dps, and if his teammates are noobs it doesn't matter how good he is.

Well, the teammates part, correct, but the rest of what you're saying gets way off the point you made. I made the point that healers in this game don't absolutely need a group (which is what I thought you meant), and they can make more contributions to the battle then just the heal button. You're beating up a straw man with what you've said in response.

[Foofmonger]

How to avoid a black orc?

Snare/root him and run away. Tanks should be much easier to kite then meele dps, and thus, the easiest meele classes to kite (although melee support may be fairly easy to kite as well).

[Duty]

How to avoid a black orc?

Snare/root him and run away. Tanks should be much easier to kite then meele dps, and thus, the easiest meele classes to kite (although melee support may be fairly easy to kite as well).

Problem is when he resists your snare because as a proper tank he focused on being able to do such a thing :p

The fact that they're tanks with such high health, they can ruin entire strategies by a resist, block, or other defense mechanism triggering off the right ability. Not dying before you're out of juice helps too. Fury from DAoC anyone?

So just because they may not have as many direct abilities to escape such things as other classes, doesn't mean they'll actually need them in the first place :)

[Foofmonger]

Problem is when he resists your snare because as a proper tank he focused on being able to do such a thing :p


True, but hopefully the devs aren't going to be giving tanks DAoC levels of CC resist (stoi/det).




So just because they may not have as many direct abilities to escape such things as other classes, doesn't mean they'll actually need them in the first place :)

Again true, but the devs keep going on and on about how ranged dps counters tanks because tanks are easily kited. This may or may not be the case (and you would know better then me).

But I would be pretty unhappy if tanks couldn't be kited easily, considering that seems to be their main weakness in WAR.

[Duty]

I think I'd be unhappy if tanks WERE kited very easily. We can have a weakness to ranged dps, ok, but if we never get a chance to even touch you even if we play very well...bleh, that's no fun.

[Foofmonger]

I think I'd be unhappy if tanks WERE kited very easily. We can have a weakness to ranged dps, ok, but if we never get a chance to even touch you even if we play very well...bleh, that's no fun.

Well, there is a difference between being kited easily, and being kited forever.

I'm definitly not for perma-kiting. Everyone should have DR and immunity after a while, so that shouldn't be a huge issue.

However, I'm all for not making tanks into CC immune monsters (like DAoC). Its nessacary in DAoC due to the ridiculous amounts of CC, but since WAR won't have this level of CC, I don't really see it nessacary for tanks to have this advantage.

Plus, if tanks are heavily CC immune, it entirely undermines the effectiveness of melee dps. In DAoC, the melee dps are for the most part, also tanks (even mercs/bm/zerks are classified as light tanks), the only non-tankish melee dps are generally either stealthers (which aren't in WAR at all), or expansion classes (like the savage/vampiir, which fill a somewhat niche role that isn't very popular anyway).

So realistically in DAoC, the tanks are the melee dps for the most part (as far as open field combat goes). Combined with the ludicrous amounts of CC in DAoC, it makes sense for the tanks (which are the melee dps), to have heavy CC resists, good survivability, and good damage.

In WAR, they seem to be splitting up this archetype (obviously). So Melee DPS and Tanks in WAR seem to have some of the potential of tanks in DAoC, but not all of it. It seems to me like Melee DPS in WAR will get much of the snares/positionals/cc breaks that tanks currently have in DAoC. While the tanks in WAR will have the durability and protection utility that they have in DAoC (except much better protection utility), combined with collision detection of course.

This also fundamentally differs from DAoC in my mind in the sense that tanks will be most effective against melee dps, which currently isn't always the case in DAoC (since the majority of non-stealth melee fights are tank vs tank). This gives tanks an entirely new role that they didn't have in DAoC, because there wasn't a clear definition between tank and melee dps in DAoC.

Personally, I think the tanks in WAR main weakness should be kiting. We know that they will fundamentally be strong against melee dps due to their proximity, higher mitigation, and competitive damage. Giving them plenty of anti-kiting tools also makes them monsters against ranged classes.

This is bad, because it puts melee dps in a position where it is nearly useless. If tanks can close range nearly as effectively as meele dps, then whats the point of playing melee dps? You have less survivability, you get owned by tanks, and tanks are just as good as you at not being kited. The only defining feature of melee dps then would be their actual dps, and it would need to be ridiculously high to compensate for the fact that they have almost no utility that a tank doesn't.

So the way I see it is if tanks have a good amount of anti-cc and anti-kiting utility, meele dps needs to be astronomically greater then tanks dps for the game to be balanced at a fundamental level. However, this would probably make the support/ranged people cry, because they would be getting ripped apart as soon as a melee got in rnage.

[Duty]

I think you're taking my argument and doing a straw man. Melee dps should have more reliable and probably just a raw amount more of counters, as well as higher dps. Tanks should have the survivability and utility. That's part of being these classes.

Perhaps I did a straw man too, as you're not advocating perma-kite. I think this is why tanks use 2 handers: they may only get 1 or 2 shots off before they're out of range again, and those shots have to really count for something. Melee dps tend to use the higher overall dps of dual wielding as they can stay in range for extended periods.

Still, I think a tank's primary defense is his raw stats. He has higher health, higher defense, etc. He doesn't have higher damage or as many reliable CC counters as a melee dps, that's what makes them melee dps.

[NoneSuch]

Oh dear :(

[Foofmonger]

I think you're taking my argument and doing a straw man. Melee dps should have more reliable and probably just a raw amount more of counters, as well as higher dps. Tanks should have the survivability and utility. That's part of being these classes.

Perhaps I did a straw man too, as you're not advocating perma-kite. I think this is why tanks use 2 handers: they may only get 1 or 2 shots off before they're out of range again, and those shots have to really count for something. Melee dps tend to use the higher overall dps of dual wielding as they can stay in range for extended periods.

Still, I think a tank's primary defense is his raw stats. He has higher health, higher defense, etc. He doesn't have higher damage or as many reliable CC counters as a melee dps, that's what makes them melee dps.

Why don't we just agree to agree then.

:-D

[Dracohouston]

You said about tanks that they can at least equip a great weapon and do some damage. Which by your argument, is pointless as a DPSer is always going to do more dps, and if his teammates are noobs it doesn't matter how good he is.

Well, the teammates part, correct, but the rest of what you're saying gets way off the point you made. I made the point that healers in this game don't absolutely need a group (which is what I thought you meant), and they can make more contributions to the battle then just the heal button. You're beating up a straw man with what you've said in response.
What the christ, way to put a shitload of words into my mouth. How you got all that from "at least you can put on a 2 hander when they aren't helping you help them' into "healers can't dps" is beyond me.

Support scales with the team you support, this is fact. Anything else you are talking about in relation to my posts is just wierd subtexts you think are there. It was a 2 sentence post, about as deep as a kiddie pool. I don't even know why you are arguing with me.

[BobTheOrc]

Theres a black orc ability called "CAN'T STOP DA WAGGHHHH!!!"

Removes any snares or slows, 15 seconds I think.

[Dracohouston]

Theres a black orc ability called "CAN'T STOP DA WAGGHHHH!!!"

Removes any snares or slows, 15 seconds I think.
Yep, the ironbreaker has Relentless Stride that does that too. I'm going to go ahead and consider that a tank archetype trait.

[BobTheOrc]

I believe your correct. Being the tank, its our job to stand and fight, not get stuck.

[craz1e83]

can't compare daoc cc to warhammer cc ... daoc cc is wayyyy overpowered .... their cc can last up to a minute or even longer... the longest i have seen here is like 12 seconds lol

[Ooi]

there are going to be a lot of ways to play the black orc without being kited i imagine playing mine in an offensive/proactive role. not as a dmg dealer but with 2 melee dps following me as main assist. you have knock downs and roots use them along with your teams cc. i dont think there willb e too much worry of kiting. you do your 2 second knockdown with 2 dps assisting you will not be kited. not to mention you have a ranged root and while being a proactive tank you can still throw your taunts and defend your support. Hell you can run your assist on there guys going after your support then you definately wont be avoided.