Will you heal others?

[Cmong]

I am just wondering how many future Disciples have the intention of healing others in PvE and RvR when needed. From what I have been seeing around multiple forums is that many people are wanting to roll a Disciple just to do "massive damage" and just heal them self even though this is the dark elf healing class. I plan to roll one when the game is released (or beta if I ever get the chance to get in....) and I'm just curious. Plus, I'm sure some others are wondering this as well.

[Xandax]

I played (levelled and raid) in WoW as a pure holy/disc specced priest (twice) and I quite liked the support role. Having to keep people alive can in situations be quite fun, although somewhat "stressful". In DAoC I did have a restoration specced Midgard healer as an alternate character as well, and enjoyed that one also when it came to keep/siege combat.

So if I choose to go for a character which can heal (which currently it would look likely) I would very much spec to heal others indeed as well.

[Nightsoldier]

Im hopeing disciples heal. The class is a support class and it doesnt matter how awesome tou dps a dps class will do better. I wouldnt take a support character who wont heal anyone at all into my group. I would probably take one specced for damage but if he refuses to heal fellow teammates then he can just go away. Yes people can play how they want but if they want to do huge damage make a dps class, not support.

[Cmong]

Im hopeing disciples heal. The class is a support class and it doesnt matter how awesome tou dps a dps class will do better. I wouldnt take a support character who wont heal anyone at all into my group. I would probably take one specced for damage but if he refuses to heal fellow teammates then he can just go away. Yes people can play how they want but if they want to do huge damage make a dps class, not support.

Totally agree. I have been playing WoW since beta and currently that is a major problem with it, healing classes just will not heal. I'm really hoping it isn't the same for WAR, and so far it's looking like it won't be. Healers will be doing more than just healing which in my opinion is needed to keep interest in the class and healing itself. I like how shaman build WHAGG by doing damage, and how Disciples apparently have to be in melee to heal. Hopefully this keeps people from speccing just to damage, or just to heal (if there is even a healing "tree" for masteries and what-not). All-in-all, people shouldn't forget that this is a healing based class, and I hope they would do whats best for their group, even though I know many people won't.

[Nightsoldier]

Totally agree. I have been playing WoW since beta and currently that is a major problem with it, healing classes just will not heal. I'm really hoping it isn't the same for WAR, and so far it's looking like it won't be. Healers will be doing more than just healing which in my opinion is needed to keep interest in the class and healing itself. I like how shaman build WHAGG by doing damage, and how Disciples apparently have to be in melee to heal. Hopefully this keeps people from speccing just to damage, or just to heal (if there is even a healing "tree" for masteries and what-not). All-in-all, people shouldn't forget that this is a healing based class, and I hope they would do whats best for their group, even though I know many people won't.

Well the thing with wows healers was there was no middle ground really. Either you healed or you tried doing damage. I think in WAR though if your not healing as a support class it just doesnt make sense. You get to do damage and it makes your healing better so why not heal? I know that when the game goes live there will be the people refusing to heal but it i know that still there will be some out there thinking back to wow where there was two ways.

[Endemikus]

I hope that Disciples are the worst DPS class in the game so that anyone who plans on healing only themselves is an epic failure.

[Duty]

I don't care what class you roll, if you don't do your part in a group, whether that be tanking, healing, crowd control, whatever it is supposed to be, then you can just go away, it's not just a healer problem.

I voted I'd heal other people, but only because I'm a tank class and I'm prepared to step in front and tank for other people. It's the same concept of not being a complete retard vs. being a decent player.

[Slash]

If you don't want to heal others. Don't roll and Support career.

I'm not sure if I can make it any blunter; no matter how badarse the Disciple may look, every single DPS class will do more damage than it. What makes a Support class worth playing, is the additional support it brings via buffs, heals, rez etc. People who will not be healing others are bad players.

[Dracohouston]

lol, someone voted no :O

[Ayetalam]

If you don't want to heal others. Don't roll and Support career.

I'm not sure if I can make it any blunter; no matter how badarse the Disciple may look, every single DPS class will do more damage than it. What makes a Support class worth playing, is the additional support it brings via buffs, heals, rez etc. People who will not be healing others are bad players.

QFT. If you aren't going to support and heal and all, dont roll the class. Dont force a class to do something its not supposed to do.

[Aqe]

You get rewarded for healing others so many people will spam heals on others hoping to get extra RPs :)

[Chrismorris]

Yes, I will heal others if needed

[Sindal]

I don't care what class you roll, if you don't do your part in a group, whether that be tanking, healing, crowd control, whatever it is supposed to be, then you can just go away, it's not just a healer problem.

I voted I'd heal other people, but only because I'm a tank class and I'm prepared to step in front and tank for other people. It's the same concept of not being a complete retard vs. being a decent player.

Duty answered it best, its more then just a support issue. Everyone needs to be fufilling thier role, tanks need to be protecting not swinging a two handed sword for "DPS". Ranged Dps/ Melee Dps need to be assisting and bursting down. The list goes on and on, everyone needs to do thier part for it to work, it is NOT just a healer problem of people playing out of archtype. If you want to see the where the realy problems willl come from look at the tank forums OTHER then the Black Orc. They are all drooling over how hard they will hit instead of how hard they can BE hit.

[Emeraldw99]

This is kinda a silly thread. I have never met anyone who was a healer that refused to heal in a group. There were people in WoW who used the "i'm not specced for healing" line, but that was more of a "thats not my job" thing, or a lack of gear thing, which in some cases is true.

But here, in this thread, I doubt anyone would really pick the second option. One person did, but why? I can imagine why, people are healing jerks. They act like it's your job to keep up everyone at all times and especially them. I agree with the general premise of the thread, if you can heal, then you should heal others. However healing is not that simple, especially in PvP.

Support has the ability to turn a fight from a losing one, to a winning one. Support decides who lives and who dies (almost literally), and there have been many times I have forsaken healing someone for a multitude of reasons, one of which being it was better for the overall win if I did something other than "heal."

[Vaylone]

I think I'm going to heal only if necessary. And honestly, who plays a hybrid class to only do one job?

I like playing around with classes and getting unique play, and the Disciple appeals to me because it seems to be a DPS-healing hybrid. While I don't expect it to top the damage charts, I do expect it to do more than the warrior-priest, whom I view as more tank like, and any other support class. High-paced fighting with the ability to save yourself or others in the heat of battle appeals a lot to me. >_>

[Xykros]

I don't care what class you roll, if you don't do your part in a group, whether that be tanking, healing, crowd control, whatever it is supposed to be, then you can just go away, it's not just a healer problem.

I voted I'd heal other people, but only because I'm a tank class and I'm prepared to step in front and tank for other people. It's the same concept of not being a complete retard vs. being a decent player.

Can I have your hand in marriage?

No really, nicely put.
The down side, if only more people thought like that.
Doing pvp on any game I've played, as every archetype. I prefer support myself, I tend to do best in this position, except in FPS (assassin/sniper types ftw). Any how back to the subject at hand, I personally will heal to an extent, I get picky on who I heal as a round goes. Those who have done healing in PvP do not need me to explain why, (hint: WHY DIDN'T YOU HEAL ME?! YOU WERE DOING THE OBJECTIVE AND 60 MILES AWAY, LEARN TO HEAL) just one example of many people I wish I could punch through the monitor.

But if you need good motivation to actually heal, remember, the more people you keep alive, the more likely things tend to die. (Also, if you are mainly trying to keep certain people alive, it helps to have some targets on your side up, so they can possibly die instead :twisted:)

[Gilante]

From what i've seen every healer is a hybrid class and in a some way has to be active in combat to be effective in healing...whether it be the shaman, disciple, zealot and all the other stupid order classes. no one will just be in the back spamming heals like in wow.

[Browncoat-WHA]

These threads are always interesting to see. It's nowhere near a powderkeg, however, I would like to give a couple gentle reminders:

-Different playstyles will always exist, regardless of how viable or popular or correct they are. It's everyone's choice to play what they want.

-There will be plenty of people playing so you can always find someone who fits with your perceived notion of a class.

-"Good" healers or "Good" healing styles will emerge on their own without people declaring what they are definitively.

Inevitably there is always someone who posts in these "style" threads that says they play a completely different perhaps sometimes unfavorably perceived way, and it always causes a mess. Hopefully that won't happen here. Carry on ;)

[Xykros]

These threads are always interesting to see. It's nowhere near a powderkeg, however, I would like to give a couple gentle reminders:

-Different playstyles will always exist, regardless of how viable or popular or correct they are. It's everyone's choice to play what they want.

-There will be plenty of people playing so you can always find someone who fits with your perceived notion of a class.

-"Good" healers or "Good" healing styles will emerge on their own without people declaring what they are definitively.

Inevitably there is always someone who posts in these "style" threads that says they play a completely different perhaps sometimes unfavorably perceived way, and it always causes a mess. Hopefully that won't happen here. Carry on ;)

Good show, good show.

Very true, as everyone tends to be on varying skill level, personality, tastes, etc. But as per one of my favorite quotes "Sometimes people are bad at games, they don't know it, but they are.", although not very nice if put in an improper way, it is true. It applies to classes too, where I suppose the thought would be 'You can do that, yes you can, just not with me'.. so saying that, walking away now. ¬,¬

Edit: The quote, I cannot remember for the life of me who wrote it, it was in an article written by a game designer I believe.

[Emeraldw99]

From what i've seen every healer is a hybrid class and in a some way has to be active in combat to be effective in healing...whether it be the shaman, disciple, zealot and all the other stupid order classes. no one will just be in the back spamming heals like in wow.

Which is great. Support classes are not strickly "healers." Support careers here have been given what is usually the exclusive domain of DPS classes. Shamans are said to have an AOE snare, thats great. Zealots/runepriests buff/debuff, WP is said to have short length buffs. War will hopefully fundamentally change the way Support is played, I pray to Khaine/Tzneetch/Sigmar/Gork&Mork.

One thing i think that will be particularlly interesting is seeing people from games like wow, that try to spam heals. Or seek to deal the minimum damage so they can heal spam, if it is as I hope, that will not be the best way but doing more than just "Nuke till I can heal" but also "Nuke till I can heal, then buff, Then nuke, and heal." Much more interesting.

[Nightsoldier]

Which is great. Support classes are not strickly "healers." Support careers here have been given what is usually the exclusive domain of DPS classes. Shamans are said to have an AOE snare, thats great. Zealots/runepriests buff/debuff, WP is said to have short length buffs. War will hopefully fundamentally change the way Support is played, I pray to Khaine/Tzneetch/Sigmar/Gork&Mork.

One thing i think that will be particularlly interesting is seeing people from games like wow, that try to spam heals. Or seek to deal the minimum damage so they can heal spam, if it is as I hope, that will not be the best way but doing more than just "Nuke till I can heal" but also "Nuke till I can heal, then buff, Then nuke, and heal." Much more interesting.


Ya im really looking forward to seeing how its balanced to. If it is nuking until you can I heal thats most effective I might be a little disapointed personaly. I want healing well to be a skill that takes 40 ranks to pick up. Something that a good healer isnt just nuking until they can heal but there playing there class. I guess I'll have to just wait and see what happens with that.

[Bluucandi]

Refusing to heal and res others is a sure way of committing career suicide. You'll quickly gain a bad rep among your community. Keeping my mates alive is a thrilling priviledge - my heals are as much a valued contribution as any tanking or dps.

While I wait for WAR to release, I'll be dusting off my old warden to get ship-shape again as a melee-healer. Every ability will be practiced but especially that ones the keep my groupmates on their feet and fighting.

[Bluucandi]

Duty answered it best, its more then just a support issue. Everyone needs to be fufilling thier role, tanks need to be protecting not swinging a two handed sword for "DPS". Ranged Dps/ Melee Dps need to be assisting and bursting down. The list goes on and on, everyone needs to do thier part for it to work, it is NOT just a healer problem of people playing out of archtype. If you want to see the where the realy problems willl come from look at the tank forums OTHER then the Black Orc. They are all drooling over how hard they will hit instead of how hard they can BE hit.

Agreed.

I think people are getting carried away though with the "are you going to heal?" threads. Do you see people peppering the other class forums asking "are you going to tank/dps?" :rolleyes:

Sure, I've seen some healers do a poor job of healing/resing. On the flip side, I've also seen tanks and casters extending themselves, getting double and triple teamed and making it terribly difficult the keep them alive while they leave their healer alone and undefended. Even a good healer may find it impossible to keep people alive in the thickest of fights.

Every savy PvPer knows that his team's healer is the number one target of enemies. A good team is a team that looks out for one another. Healers should heal but all the other members should be ready and willing to peel enemies off the healer.

Lots of people enjoy healing but they get very discouraged by an excessive amount of whining and blame shifting.

[Foofmonger]

The first time I group with a disciple who refuses to heal others is also the last time I will ever group with that disciple.

As said above, refusing to fufill your role is a great way to get a horrible reputation and be laughed at by your entire server.

[Duty]

Different playstyles will always exist, regardless of how viable or popular or correct they are. It's everyone's choice to play what they want.

I think this is where people get hung up on. No one is disagreeing that different specs, styles of play, etc exist and are a good thing (imagine a game where you could only play one way, it would suck). What people are rightly disgruntled is bad players that insist on playing their narrow minded view of the class, selfishly, without adapting in any way to what their group needs. This impacts my enjoyment and playtime as much as the offending person, and seems to happen way too often in PUG scenarios.

If you're in a group, I'm going to take WoW as an example as I've done a lot of DAoC examples lately, and you're a warrior, your group consists of another warrior, a mage, a rogue, and a druid. In this group, if the other warrior is main tank, you're pretty much free to dps except when an off tank is really needed. If you get another group consisting of 2 mages, a warlock and a paladin, sorry, but you're the tank whether you're fury specced or not. Those players that strap on a 2hander in this situation and think more damage > reducing damage are possibly ignorant of what they should be doing, but more likely just being selfish.

Another great example is the shadow priest pugger in a 2v2 situation that lets you die because he wants to dps. ***Your best weapon is ALWAYS the person fighting next to you.*** Keep doing your dps, sure, but throw a PW:S, a renew, something to get him back to fighting condition so you can keep it a 2v2 instead of a 2v1.


To summarize my point, different playstyles are expected and appreciated. This holds true for any decent player that is good enough to spec themselves and adapt to the situation. A tank is still a tank, and a healer still a healer in the end. If you're needed to perform your the key role of your class, and you are unwilling to do so, don't be expected to last or be invited to many of my groups, or many other groups at all for that matter.

[Sindal]

The first time I group with a disciple who refuses to heal others is also the last time I will ever group with that disciple.

As said above, refusing to fulfill your role is a great way to get a horrible reputation and be laughed at by your entire server.

good thing you got me foof =p

I can see your points Brown, but at the same time while I respect another persons right to play how or what they want because its their money, its my money to say I don't like them playing that way. There is no way to argue that a "SUPPORT" archetype being played as pure dps or not SUPPORTING allies is being a bad player. It is using the career to less then its full potential which is, in my view, bad play. Weather they prefer it that way or not doesn't make them and less terrible at the game. If I like to play Super Mario but refuse to use jump while its my right, it makes me fairly stupid and a terrible Mario player, same holds true. Would you say someone who likes to play PAC-Man but doesn't eat the big dots (the one that makes the ghosts eatable) is good at PAC- Man? absolutely not, same holds true here. While they are free to play all they want, they are still bad.


On a side note this thread seems to be getting "Bullies" dominated =p

[Bort]

Different play styles do exist. This is why there are a lot of different classes. They are there to account for the many different styles of play that someone may prefer.

There are right and wrong ways to play a class. The right way is to use all the abilities given to you, and to use them properly. Healing is going to be just one of the many abilities given to Disciples that needs to be used properly by the player.

[shotgunbadger]

I'm going to heal. It won't be ALL I do, I intend to TRY to max out my DPS and Healing, but if it comes to a choice of either/or, I'll err in the side of healing for group.

[Thorens]

As a former feral druid in WoW, I've been through most of the "you have heals so heal me" crap that happens all over WoW. I voted I would heal, but I'm not going to stand in the back and heal and heal. Im going to be up front collecting souls for khain and doing what I like to do best, damage. Im not saying if I see a tank ( who is at least trying to protect me and the rest of the group) im not going to heal him, but to stand in the back and heal bot like so many WoW players demanded of me on my druid, it's just not going to work.

I like my playstyle and thats what I'm going to play. I dont change for people, and I dont enjoy being stuck playing the heal bot. Hopefully Mythic will get this type of healing out of their game like they intended, but the WoW refuges will come in, so expect people with similer mindsets coming.

[shotgunbadger]

As a former feral druid in WoW, I've been through most of the "you have heals so heal me" crap that happens all over WoW. I voted I would heal, but I'm not going to stand in the back and heal and heal. Im going to be up front collecting souls for khain and doing what I like to do best, damage. Im not saying if I see a tank ( who is at least trying to protect me and the rest of the group) im not going to heal him, but to stand in the back and heal bot like so many WoW players demanded of me on my druid, it's just not going to work.

I like my playstyle and thats what I'm going to play. I dont change for people, and I dont enjoy being stuck playing the heal bot. Hopefully Mythic will get this type of healing out of their game like they intended, but the WoW refuges will come in, so expect people with similer mindsets coming.

WoW =/= WAR.

In WAR every healing class NEEDS to do damage to maximize their healing, you won't get screamed at for doing damage. Now, chances are you WILL get an annoyed /tell if you only DD and heal yourself, simply because...well this game has only 4 classes, one for each AT, there's no debate, if they wanted a DD they'd get a Witch Elf, you were called for support, be it heals/debuffs/buffs or whatever.

[Thorens]

WoW =/= WAR.

In WAR every healing class NEEDS to do damage to maximize their healing, you won't get screamed at for doing damage. Now, chances are you WILL get an annoyed /tell if you only DD and heal yourself, simply because...well this game has only 4 classes, one for each AT, there's no debate, if they wanted a DD they'd get a Witch Elf, you were called for support, be it heals/debuffs/buffs or whatever.

Yes, but I'm afraid that many WoW players will be moving to War, causing that same mindset. Though War and WoW are not the same thing, many things will be similer. There will still be that situation in RVR where that dps or tank will scream for heals, and complain at all the healers.

Also, not ALL the healers will need to damage to heal well, the runepriest, zealot, and archmage doesn't. ( Not to sure about archmage, I remember draining enemy's power to use for your own though) Though I'm pretty sure the disciple will use attacks to build up a specialty bar, we dont know for sure.

[shotgunbadger]

Yes, but I'm afraid that many WoW players will be moving to War, causing that same mindset. Though War and WoW are not the same thing, many things will be similer. There will still be that situation in RVR where that dps or tank will scream for heals, and complain at all the healers.

Also, not ALL the healers will need to damage to heal well, the runepriest, zealot, and archmage doesn't. ( Not to sure about archmage, I remember draining enemy's power to use for your own though) Though I'm pretty sure the disciple will use attacks to build up a specialty bar, we dont know for sure.

Let me rephrase, all but the RP seem to need to be in combat in some way, the Archmage has to drain, the Zelot has to debuff, and then Shaman, WP and Disciple have to do their damage to build power.

And really, the WoW people will get weeded out quick if they don't want to learn.

[Gemini]

Let me rephrase, all but the RP seem to need to be in combat in some way, the Archmage has to drain, the Zelot has to debuff, and then Shaman, WP and Disciple have to do their damage to build power.

And really, the WoW people will get weeded out quick if they don't want to learn.

No, the Zealot dosn't need to debuff, that mechanic was removed many months ago. The ritual/harbinger combination no longer has positive effects for nearby allies according to the latest info we got from convention players.

[shotgunbadger]

No, the Zealot dosn't need to debuff, that mechanic was removed many months ago. The ritual/harbinger combination no longer has positive effects for nearby allies according to the latest info we got from convention players.

Oh, must have missed that memo (don't pay attention to Chaos unless I hear the word "Maurader").

[Leontes]

I have a question. Why doesn't anybody like healing?

It seems to me that the majority of people on these forums want to do damage no matter what class they play, and in every one of these threads involving Healers, healing, and damage dealing, there's always some really weird argument about "standing in the back and healing" and how it's not fun. They want to do damage until something needs healing but make an argument that if people ask them to heal, they'll just be assholes to them and say that people shouldn't expect for them to be their personal es.

This just kind of makes me laugh because I must be in the minority. To me doing damage is boring as hell and healing is the only thing I find enjoyable in these games. As I said in another thread, I get a sick satisfaction out of making an entire enemy team feel completely useless because they can't down a single member of my team, but I guess I'm somehow a "" and not a "real" class.

Weird.

[Dracohouston]

Let me rephrase, all but the RP seem to need to be in combat in some way, the Archmage has to drain, the Zelot has to debuff, and then Shaman, WP and Disciple have to do their damage to build power.

And really, the WoW people will get weeded out quick if they don't want to learn.
You're looking at this backwards. You aren't punished for not DPSing, you're rewarded for DPSing.

[shotgunbadger]

You're looking at this backwards. You aren't punished for not DPSing, you're rewarded for DPSing.

I know, I was saying that the people like the Feral Druid would have a place in the fact that all support will also have DD components, but are still healing classes.

[Dracohouston]

This just kind of makes me laugh because I must be in the minority.
You aren't, they're just the ones that make an issue of it. Don't worry about it too much. You aren't forced to dps, rather you are encouraged to do this other stuff.

Really though, the damage stuff was added because one of the designers hated having to spec heals OR damage in other mmos. They wanted it to be that you could solo and grind and enjoy all that, while not being punished with doing the thing you want to do in groups (healing). Though they've stated that healer careers will never be as good at damage as any DPS career.

So they made it so we get rewarded for doing some damage during the fights. If you can spare it, go ahead, as soon as the chips are down you can get back into your stride quickely. Why people treat it like healers are suddenly DPS and have to DPS and healing is something that just sort of happens because you dps, I have no idea.

[Dracohouston]

I know, I was saying that the people like the Feral Druid would have a place in the fact that all support will also have DD components, but are still healing classes.
I think that's where people get a little confused, because hybrids in other games, especially WoW were classes that could be several archetypes, but usually only one at once. I just hope that people realise that they are still 100% effective healers at all times as these careers. They're not punished for dpsing either.

[Slash]

I think that's where people get a little confused, because hybrids in other games, especially WoW were classes that could be several archetypes, but usually only one at once. I just hope that people realise that they are still 100% effective healers at all times as these careers. They're not punished for dpsing either.

QFT. WoW had a very spec limited feel to it. To re quote: Hybrids in other games, especially WoW were classes that could be several archetypes, but usually only one at once.Could being the key word, to be effective in those Hybridised classes you had to spec into the role you wanted. Whereas in WAR (hopefully) spec will not be as important and one can still be an efficient healer, and respectable DPS'er regardless of how thing spec'd.

[Dranex]

i like that one dudes answer :P people will be spamming heals in hopes of getting more XP from assist kills..atleast thats what im gunna do..ofcourse im gunna fight..but im gunna heal everyone i can...i love that aspect of this game...makes it so much more challenging..to be up front fighting for oyu life...while your also fighting for others lives...gunna be interesting


(spam heal XP FTW)

[Trozen]

OK, I am really looking forward to being the Disciple for the fact that I can do both DPS and support.

In WoW I really got to enjoy playing my enhancement Shammy, and enjoyed being able to buff the entire party while dpsing, and when the main healer was stressed I'd keep people up.

I know these WoW examples are overdone, but this is the closest one I can see to being similar to this class. Now no one uses City of Villains as an example, but the corruptor and defender classes are very close to what all hybrid support classes are going to be IMO; and I say support for healing was not the only way to keep people alive. Buffing/debuffing is a huge part of the support class (the part I was to focus on).

Healing isn't the only way to protect people. I want to make it so that I need to cast as few heals as possible by using the lifetaps, buffs, and debuffs. I'd sooner cast a HoT so I can get little bit more dps in before you need me to really focus on keeping you alive.

[Leontes]

You aren't, they're just the ones that make an issue of it. Don't worry about it too much. You aren't forced to dps, rather you are encouraged to do this other stuff.

Really though, the damage stuff was added because one of the designers hated having to spec heals OR damage in other mmos. They wanted it to be that you could solo and grind and enjoy all that, while not being punished with doing the thing you want to do in groups (healing). Though they've stated that healer careers will never be as good at damage as any DPS career.

So they made it so we get rewarded for doing some damage during the fights. If you can spare it, go ahead, as soon as the chips are down you can get back into your stride quickely. Why people treat it like healers are suddenly DPS and have to DPS and healing is something that just sort of happens because you dps, I have no idea.

Oh I know the reasons for everything, I've been following this game since about January. I'm only curious as to why a lot of players are just so against healing in general. Every time anybody uses the word "healer" in a post people get up in arms about how there are no "healers" in WAR despite Mythic themselves calling them the "Healer" archetype in their podcasts.

Go figure, eh?

There's going to be a "best" way to do everything for every healer class. Sure, it's Mythic's plan to establish a balanced support system but I'm being cautiously optimistic that they'll actually achieve that. Healing specced Shamans might be terrible at everything and the damage specced ones might be the best healers. Hell, maybe it's healing specced Shamans who throw damage spells 70% of the time are the best healers because they generate enough Waaagh! to make their superior heals amazing. We don't know the right combination yet because we have nothing to work with.

Remember, it's always about being the best healer you can be. The damage you do is a means to an end, and is sort of the side-effect of being a great healer. Damage is a good thing to mix in with healing because removal of an enemy damage source through killing it is a form of healing in itself. However, as a Zealot, I'm almost hoping that my entire job is debuffing, buffing, and healing, because I'd rather not have a 4th thing I have to do to empower my most powerful aspects. If I have to do all four to keep my party alive, then I'll have to regrettably melt some faces to do it.

And yes, healing SHOULD be the best thing these classes can accomplish. The "Healer" archetype SHOULD be a better healer than it is a damage dealer. There is, however, a chance that Mythic could failbalance and Disciples are brought to do utility damage like a Shadow Priest to a raid in WoW. There could be awesome damage specializations for the Shaman and really pisspoor healing specs for them, making people take Zealots over Shamans for healing and Shamans over Magi for ranged damage. Of course, the optimistic idea is that everything will be balanced in time and everything will do what it's supposed to...

But if you subscribe to the idea that Mythic won't make ANY mistakes in their class design and you STILL advocate that a damage-dealing Disciple who doesn't heal should be a viable spec, then I kind of see that as a contradiction.

My assumption at this point is that there are players who want to be beautiful snowflakes and feel unique when they can "own" with the class that is supposed to do the least damage in the game, or feel special when they proudly say "sorry, I don't heal" on their Zealot main. At least that's all I can get out of it.

[Leontes]

Healing isn't the only way to protect people. I want to make it so that I need to cast as few heals as possible by using the lifetaps, buffs, and debuffs. I'd sooner cast a HoT so I can get little bit more dps in before you need me to really focus on keeping you alive.

I see those abilities as support abilities. If you're draining life from an enemy and giving it to an ally, that's a Heal over Time spell with a weird side effect that does damage. It's like how for a Shaman in WAR, he has to Fireball to make his Heal stronger, but isn't that kind of the same thing as casting Inner Focus to empower a Greater Heal as a Priest in WoW? They're pretty much just healing spells that require an enemy target.

My questions to you are these:

How is casting offensive spells that much different from casting defensive ones if the result is keeping your party safe?

What is the aversion to raw healing spells as opposed to the ones that require enemy targets?

If support spells like lifetaps, buffs, and debuffs are interesting ways to accomplish the same effect as "healing", then why are raw healing spells so looked down upon as being boring and uninteresting?

Those are the questions I'm trying to figure out the answers to, because I don't see a direct difference between something that makes an enemy hit for 200 less damage on their next swing and a spell that heals a target for 200.

Is doing damage while healing really THAT appealing of a mechanic?

[Gilante]

YES

I will heal my Chosen bodyguard in PvE

I will heal my Chosen bodyguard in RvR

The rest of you should just not die...or let the shamans heal you cause its just me and my buddy from day one....sorry mates

[Trozen]

I see those abilities as support abilities. If you're draining life from an enemy and giving it to an ally, that's a Heal over Time spell with a weird side effect that does damage. It's like how for a Shaman in WAR, he has to Fireball to make his Heal stronger, but isn't that kind of the same thing as casting Inner Focus to empower a Greater Heal as a Priest in WoW? They're pretty much just healing spells that require an enemy target.

My questions to you are these:

How is casting offensive spells that much different from casting defensive ones if the result is keeping your party safe?

What is the aversion to raw healing spells as opposed to the ones that require enemy targets?

If support spells like lifetaps, buffs, and debuffs are interesting ways to accomplish the same effect as "healing", then why are raw healing spells so looked down upon as being boring and uninteresting?

Those are the questions I'm trying to figure out the answers to, because I don't see a direct difference between something that makes an enemy hit for 200 less damage on their next swing and a spell that heals a target for 200.

Is doing damage while healing really THAT appealing of a mechanic?


The answer short answer to all your questions is that I agree with you, but it is just my preference to do my support while targeting the enemy.

To keep the party alive, offensive and defensive spells are not really different other than whom you are targeting.

I guess my aversion to raw healing isn't simply that all the spell does is heal; it is that spend a long time to cast the heal that (depending on how much damage that they take) may vastly overheal them or prove too late. I'd rather use a short heal or HoT to get the most use of my time and make sure my time was not wasted. (and yes, I know the fun of playing the pure healers was in judging how much they needed healed and when)

I can't explain how raw healing is boring. It is not that healing is boring, it is that spell that only heals is boring. And, actually the same applies for me with damage; simple nukes are not as fun as nukes with side effects.

You are right there is no net difference b/w a spell that prevents 200 damage from one that heals for 200 damage. The only thing would be the preventative one will only work on one person, effectively shutting him down. While, the heal will help your one ally from several sources. It is simply my preference to shut that enemy down by debuffing and etc. to help my ally then to target my ally and buff/heal him. Albeit, the preference does not mean I will not buff/heal my allies. I'd just rather focus on the support spells that prevent to need to do as much.

[Tapped]

Ofcourse i will heal others only reason to create a support class. That being said I hope Warhammer understands what they are doing with the melee/healer classes(Warrior Priest/Disciple) because in my opinion they are making 1v1 and small group gods. Even if the disciple does medium melee damage with dots and drains and the ability to self heal a competent PvP'er is going to destroy pretty much anything he/she comes across. Ive played every pvp able game made from UO to Vanguard and unless they do some serious balance War priest and disciple and going to be a pvp'ers first choice

[Bulwyf]

Of course I will help heal others as needed. But at the same time I don't want some idiots screaming for "HEALZ NOOB!!" either. :p

[Xykros]

Of course I will help heal others as needed. But at the same time I don't want some idiots screaming for "HEALZ NOOB!!" either. :p

Shame that it'll happen regardless, even if you're dead and waiting for a res on the opposite end of the map. "WHY DIDNT YOU HEAL ME?!"

But I never let that bother me, usually those are the rambo types, throw 'em 1 heal they try to take on the entire opposing team, so I get to watch them die a horrible death.

[Nerak]

If there was a Disciple in my guild who didn't play their class appropriately and be a team player, I'd kick them out of the guild. I've no tolerance of people who can't be team players when grouping with other people.

This is a game. With other people.

Either work with people or go back to single-player games. My opinion only.

[Blaze]

Of course I will heal. I will do whatever is necessary to do my part in helping my side win.

I don't really understand how anyone could vote No on this question. If you are playing a support class you should support your teammates.

Naturally, it is up to everyone to decide for themselves how they wish to play as long as they are paying their own monthly fees. It is their right and it's not up to me to tell them how to play their class, but it is also my right to think they are idiots for not playing their class to it's full potential.

[ManiaCCC]

Ofc, i will heal others if it will be needed.. but still My health bar > Your health bar..

[Speedy]

Well, even though I rolled the Disciple for different reasons, I will definitely heal my party and the rest of our army as I drain the souls of our enemies(yummy!) :D

But I must agree somewhat with the poster above me; if we are gonna be wiped without any chance of winning(or no plan to get back), you suckas are on your own.

[Ravanos]

I have a question. Why doesn't anybody like healing?

It seems to me that the majority of people on these forums want to do damage no matter what class they play, and in every one of these threads involving Healers, healing, and damage dealing, there's always some really weird argument about "standing in the back and healing" and how it's not fun. They want to do damage until something needs healing but make an argument that if people ask them to heal, they'll just be assholes to them and say that people shouldn't expect for them to be their personal es.

This just kind of makes me laugh because I must be in the minority. To me doing damage is boring as hell and healing is the only thing I find enjoyable in these games. As I said in another thread, I get a sick satisfaction out of making an entire enemy team feel completely useless because they can't down a single member of my team, but I guess I'm somehow a "" and not a "real" class.

Weird.

yes you are in the minority, people enjoy actively killing people instead of playing wack a mole with health bars. They don't want to "indirectly" kill people by either debuffing or keeping thier team alive most want to be in the mix, they want to be blasting or beating the crap out of thier enemies. They don't want to be sitting there cowering behind the tank or running for thier life screaming like a pansy if a player runs to attack them.

you enjoy that, great .. honestly I hope your style is completely gimped compared to someone who is active in the battle. Because if its not then that means most healers will have to mold thier character into the "pure healer" in order to be effective and be picked up by guilds. And thats why people get up in arms when people mention pure healers, because other games have promised being more active or given more dps as a healer. unfortunately the idiot player base demanded healers to give up that activeness and DPS so they can ONLY heal.

[the Prophecy]

why would i heal others? if they want heals they can roll a support character.

[Tarantio]

I find it slightly odd, peoples reactions to a person wanting to play a support class for their own ends. Just because a person isn't immediately healing YOU it doesn't make them a bad person. Possibly selfish, but not bad. A Dark Elf will often have his/herself's wellbeing in the forefront of their mind, and roleplaying this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Of course, the self-righteous answer to this poll is to immediately froth at the mouth and yell 'Omg don't roll healer if you won't heal' but i find that to be a terribly conceited opinion. Its up to a player to define himself, not you. If that player ends up not healing as much as you believe he should, then sure, dont invite him to your party. I dont feel it is necessary to insult him however. A game is there to be played and enjoyed as you see fit.

The only support class i've seen so far that ive liked is this one. If i do play it, chances are i will heal people i know, and anyone i notice is low on health. The very second a person demands a heal, i will never even look at them again. Just because someone is a Support class does not give someone the right to be rude.

[Duty]

why would i heal others? if they want heals they can roll a support character.

If you don't want aggro or players swarming you, then roll a tank, you'd get no help from me with that kind of thinking.

MMOs are a team effort. Can't play as a team? You're not worth the effort.

[Browncoat-WHA]

Relax folks. I found a troll crawling around underneath after poking around with a stick. A troll trying to evade a ban. Silly trolls, bans are for kids.

[Foofmonger]

Ofc, i will heal others if it will be needed.. but still My health bar > Your health bar..

Yea, support keeping themselves up is important as well. You can't heal anyone when your dead!

[WastedTrojan]

You would have to be a complete idiot to not toss around the heals. People who only heal themselves lend to a losing effort much more than those who know they can't win a battle alone.

[Nerak]

I find it slightly odd, peoples reactions to a person wanting to play a support class for their own ends. Just because a person isn't immediately healing YOU it doesn't make them a bad person. Possibly selfish, but not bad. A Dark Elf will often have his/herself's wellbeing in the forefront of their mind, and roleplaying this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Of course, the self-righteous answer to this poll is to immediately froth at the mouth and yell 'Omg don't roll healer if you won't heal' but i find that to be a terribly conceited opinion. Its up to a player to define himself, not you. If that player ends up not healing as much as you believe he should, then sure, dont invite him to your party. I dont feel it is necessary to insult him however. A game is there to be played and enjoyed as you see fit.

The only support class i've seen so far that ive liked is this one. If i do play it, chances are i will heal people i know, and anyone i notice is low on health. The very second a person demands a heal, i will never even look at them again. Just because someone is a Support class does not give someone the right to be rude.

Actually, it's the designers that define a class.

Healers are defined to, well, heal. I'm not saying I'm going to be rude to people who know how to play their class, in fact as a former healer I appreciate good healers who are TEAM PLAYERS.

Let's discuss what an MMORPG like this really tries to enforce: Teamwork.

If you don't want to be a team player, don't complain if people are rude to you and/or don't want anything to do with you. Especially in an RvR environment, you need to be able to depend on your teammates. One bad apple can destroy an efficient RvR team.

[Orock]

Not being a squishy in meelee, being able to dot, lifedrain AND heal yourself makes for a very independent character. Every mmo I have played in this combination in pvp has been the most challenging to keep balanced, usually erring on the side of overpowered. I can see a character soloing and if he is good, be a nightmare in pvp, supporting his team or not. I dont think its fair to chastize people because they build a character to suit there desires, its a game afterall. Nobody gets mad at the shadowknight in everquest because he dident roll a cleric to heal them. If they are in your team they probably will be supporting you to there fullest. If your pugging and mad he isnt spending his time babysitting you its too bad, he probably dosent care about you anyway. The only people I ever worry about in mmos are cheaters, and harasmonkeys. Lone wolf rambo types can be ignored, the others affect everyones game.

[Tarantio]

Actually, it's the designers that define a class.

Healers are defined to, well, heal. I'm not saying I'm going to be rude to people who know how to play their class, in fact as a former healer I appreciate good healers who are TEAM PLAYERS.

Let's discuss what an MMORPG like this really tries to enforce: Teamwork.

If you don't want to be a team player, don't complain if people are rude to you and/or don't want anything to do with you. Especially in an RvR environment, you need to be able to depend on your teammates. One bad apple can destroy an efficient RvR team.

I have to disagree with you. The designers do indeed define what a class is BEST at. They never, however, tell you exactly what you should do at any given time. A healer is perfectly good at healing just himself, and would still be fulfilling his given role, albeit in a very selfish way. Not saying that this is a good idea, but if that is the way a person wishes to do things, then that should not be a problem. If you have invited them to come along with you, then by all means get rid of them from your party, but you have no right to attack (verbally of course) a person who just happens to be in the same area as you.

A healer who refuses to heal others is in no way contributing to a loss, he is merely not contributing to a victory as much as he can. I would hope most people would not want this, and so would heal people when they can. But I am not conceited enough to think that just because that is what I want, it should be what they want.

While we are on the topic of teamwork, and its inherant benefit to RvR games, we might stop to think about politeness. Yelling at the top of ones voice 'OMG UR A HEALER HEAL FFS' will just annoy. (I play a draenai shaman in Wow and the instant i hear that, i promptly forget that person exists. Sometimes you dont see one person being attacked while healing another. Plus i find focussing healing on a warrior to be far more amusing). Asking politely before combat, or merely sending a jokey message will often get you far further. (A mage once whispered me saying 'cunning plan - i run in, you heal..see how far we get :P', and that was enough to make me follow him around the whole battle helping him)

Too many people here seem to be of the opinion that if a person is not healing you personally, then they are a crap player, a poor teammate, and they deserve scorn and derision. Perhaps you should play the game, enjoy yourself, and get people who WANT to heal to be your healer. To each their own.

[Slash]

I find it slightly odd, peoples reactions to a person wanting to play a support class for their own ends. Just because a person isn't immediately healing YOU it doesn't make them a bad person. Possibly selfish, but not bad. A Dark Elf will often have his/herself's wellbeing in the forefront of their mind, and roleplaying this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Of course, the self-righteous answer to this poll is to immediately froth at the mouth and yell 'Omg don't roll healer if you won't heal' but i find that to be a terribly conceited opinion. Its up to a player to define himself, not you. If that player ends up not healing as much as you believe he should, then sure, dont invite him to your party. I dont feel it is necessary to insult him however. A game is there to be played and enjoyed as you see fit.

The only support class i've seen so far that ive liked is this one. If i do play it, chances are i will heal people i know, and anyone i notice is low on health. The very second a person demands a heal, i will never even look at them again. Just because someone is a Support class does not give someone the right to be rude.

Your right, a Magus can run in and melee people, he/she has the right to do so. Does this make him/her a bad player; in my opinion, yes. And indeed a Disciple could choose not to heal others at all, and act like an inferior DPS career, he/she has the right to do so. Does this make him/her a bad player? again, yes in my opinion.

I will not be shouting at Support players for not healing others , I will simply kick them (or advise another to do so) from the group.

[Tarantio]

And indeed a Disciple could choose not to heal others at all, and act like an inferior DPS career, he/she has the right to do so. Does this make him/her a bad player? again, yes in my opinion.


Taking this example what if that Disciple, in only healing themselves, is tieing up four enemy characters, who would otherwise be attacking your allies. Are they still a poor player? Healers in many games have fairly decent survivability if they focus on themselves. (Vanguards Shamans/Clerics/Disciples. WoW's..well all wows healers. Clerics in DDO. The healerin LOTR)

Every battleground has a place for the lone player. Sure, he will not be helping you directly, but maybe it will help indirectly.

I do agree however, i would not invite a player as a healer and then have him/her running around not fulfilling their role.

[Xandax]

Taking this example what if that Disciple, in only healing themselves, is tieing up four enemy characters, who would otherwise be attacking your allies. Are they still a poor player? <snip>

What if he only ties up one player (or none, because they ignore him as he proves no threat) while the 4 enemies steamroll their way across the rest of the team via focused damage cause nobody heals anybody else?

Assuming that a disciple healing himself will survive an arbitrary amount of punishment is pretty void as an argument, unless we know for sure that a disciple can survive "4 enemy players". Could also just mean he dies instantaneously.

[Tarantio]

What if he only ties up one player (or none, because they ignore him as he proves no threat) while the 4 enemies steamroll their way across the rest of the team via focused damage cause nobody heals anybody else?

Assuming that a disciple healing himself will survive an arbitrary amount of punishment is pretty void as an argument, unless we know for sure that a disciple can survive "4 enemy players". Could also just mean he dies instantaneously.

Similarly, it is useless to assume that player will achieve absolutely nothing, which is exactly the attitude i am arguing against. I completely agree that a healer, working in conjunction with a balanced party, will always be more useful than one working alone. I just dont agree with the notion that (and i quote from Slash at the start of the thread)

'If you don't want to heal others. Don't roll a Support career.'


I find this notion to be the most conceited bull**** ever. If a player enjoys the idea of being able to heal themselves, while doing some damage, then all power to them. They have every right to do as they please. Hell, they might even do some good, who knows.

[ManiaCCC]

Your right, a Magus can run in and melee people, he/she has the right to do so. Does this make him/her a bad player; in my opinion, yes. And indeed a Disciple could choose not to heal others at all, and act like an inferior DPS career, he/she has the right to do so. Does this make him/her a bad player? again, yes in my opinion.

I will not be shouting at Support players for not healing others , I will simply kick them (or advise another to do so) from the group.

You made pretty wrong examples. You started with magus doing some melee. So good example for Disciple whould be tanking and be sure.. you wont see Disciples tanking.. or Magus doing some melee.

But question is.. will Disciples heal others? I am sure disciples will heal. heal is too strong tool in PvP to ignore it and be sure every at least avarage disciple will use all his/her tools in combat to survive..what i am not sure if all disciples will use heal on others everytime but he/she is bad player? i don't think so.

[Speedy]

If you don't want aggro or players swarming you, then roll a tank, you'd get no help from me with that kind of thinking.

MMOs are a team effort. Can't play as a team? You're not worth the effort.

QFT.

"If you keep me alive, I promise to heal you <3" That's my motto, a motto all healers should have.

[Xandax]

<snip>
I find this notion to be the most conceited bull**** ever. If a player enjoys the idea of being able to heal themselves, while doing some damage, then all power to them. They have every right to do as they please. Hell, they might even do some good, who knows.
Indeed, but they may find themselves soloing more often by force then choice.

The whole idea is that we know Disciples can heal. That means they work great in connection with others. That then means if others want to party with them it is most likely for their ability (save a few situations) which again means that if a person does not perform/act according to the "role" of his choice of character, people have just as much right to kick and blacklist this person.

Support characters are generally expected to support, and if they don't - then I for one see little reason to group with them, just as I - as a support character - would expect the tank to, well tank. It is quid pro quo.
So yes, a player should be allowed to say he only will heal himself, but everybody else have the same rights to not want to play with him, and kick him from their groups.
So if playing a support character in a party which expects you to do so, then play support. Otherwise solo, find another group, or play another character.

[Orock]

I dont think most pro self healer arguements in this thread are argueing what to do in a pre built group with guildies/friends. What they are saying is in world pvp/instances with pugs they can and will do what is most fun for them, and if that dosent include healing anyone but themselves tough nuts. You can't kick them from instances/world pvp, so that repeated threat is pointless. What you can do is not run around the zone shouting "omgz ur a heelur heel ffs" if they want to run off and be rambo.

Decent meelee, dots, lifetap, and the ability to heal yourself in many pvp mmos is a recipie for a powerful (usually overpowered) pvp character. Mabye all that potential for being overpowered attracted him to the class. Those kind of people surely think of the healing aspect of the class lastly. People are thinking too much in wow terms for what healers should be doing. This isnt the healing specced paladin running around trying to find 1v1 fights to win, this is more like the warlock specced for 1v1 pvp running through trying to rack up his kill count. Nobody yells at him and asks him why he dident roll a healer so he could support his team.

Just pretend its a class that cant heal if there not healing you, and your stress melts away.

[Hoodwink]

yes you are in the minority, people enjoy actively killing people instead of playing wack a mole with health bars.

So you have no idea what it's actually like to play a competitive PvP healer. Ok, most people don't.

They don't want to be sitting there cowering behind the tank or running for thier life screaming like a pansy if a player runs to attack them.

Heh, I hope no one heals you, ever.

If you have such a low opinion of any class that ever has to avoid melee (every class in the game except a tank) I hope everyone has a similarly low opinion of you.

[Emeraldw99]

So you have no idea what it's actually like to play a competitive PvP healer. Ok, most people don't.



Heh, I hope no one heals you, ever.

If you have such a low opinion of any class that ever has to avoid melee (every class in the game except a tank) I hope everyone has a similarly low opinion of you.

Did you even read and try to comprehend the guys post? Either your trolling or you do not understand what he was trying to say. I agree with Ravanos's point. Killing people is generally more fun than healing, but also the ability to be versatile is a great thing. War's support careers look to be versatile without the "healing only" role.

What do you mean by "you don't know how to heal competitively"? I don't get it, what about that is about healing competitively? His statement about avoiding melee or any damage for that matter is more about support careers inability to fight back generally. As a healer you keep yourself alive and keep others alive, thats generally the goal. Here in War however, it appears that the support careers can fight back and not have to run away.

[Nerak]

A healer is perfectly good at healing just himself, and would still be fulfilling his given role, albeit in a very selfish way. Not saying that this is a good idea, but if that is the way a person wishes to do things, then that should not be a problem.

No, no, no, no, NO. Shouldn't be a problem? It absolutely is a problem. Maybe if this were Oblivion and you wanted to do nothing but heal yourself as you battled 500 dudes this line of thinking is perfectly okay, but let's point out what WAR is: Massively MULTIPLAYER Online RPG. Yes, when we factor in the fact one has to play with other people, ESPECIALLY in a game that is so heavily RvR-oriented, teamwork is vital.

If you or anyone else doesn't want to be a team player, than don't roll on my server. I play to win and to smash Order's face, and that requires teamwork and coordination, not a bunch of "Rambos" doing their own thing.

But I am not conceited enough to think that just because that is what I want, it should be what they want.

So because I want to be a team player and help out others and thus want others to be team players too... that's conceited? No, the conceited ones are the people who want to run around and do their own thing.

Too many people here seem to be of the opinion that if a person is not healing you personally, then they are a crap player, a poor teammate, and they deserve scorn and derision.

Hey, how about healers remember tanks can taunt in PvP to get people attacking them off their junk? Healers better worry about their team and if they don't than they do deserve scorn and derision. Again, teamwork. Team. Everyone working together to smash order. If you want to play, "Lets pick frufru flowers while we sing in the bleak world of Telon" go play Vanguard or something where you can "Be Free" or whatever. RvR isn't about doing your own thing, it's about working with others to win for your realm.

Your Realm > You.

Taking this example what if that Disciple, in only healing themselves, is tieing up four enemy characters, who would otherwise be attacking your allies. Are they still a poor player? Healers in many games have fairly decent survivability if they focus on themselves. (Vanguards Shamans/Clerics/Disciples. WoW's..well all wows healers. Clerics in DDO. The healerin LOTR)
Every battleground has a place for the lone player. Sure, he will not be helping you directly, but maybe it will help indirectly.

No, Battlegrounds have NO room for lone players. You are a waste of space for someone who could be 100 times more productive. Your way of thinking is so inherently flawed that it melts the mind. They cannot help you, all they do is hurt you, hurt your team, and hurt your realm.

Again, they are deserving of scorn and derision from everyone else in the BG.

[Bluucandi]

As a healer you keep yourself alive and keep others alive, thats generally the goal. Here in War however, it appears that the support careers can fight back and not have to run away.

I subscribe to the school of thought that's developing: healing should be more than simply spaming one button. It should have a variety of ways and means to be more entertaining without diminishing the importance of healing. Otherwise, it's a snoozefest.

I ask these questions when I look at playing a healer: "Will she be soloeable if need be?" "Will she only excell at healing/buffing and have poorish defensive capabilities?" (i.e. my nurture specced DAoC druid) I don't want to have to tell my party "Sorry guys, I healed and I healed and I healed but then I got pounced on and my heals were interupted. I died and then you all died as a consequence." :rolleyes:

[Thorens]

The problem with most "rambo" healers, is that they got burned by tanks not protecting them. In WoW (the only mmo I can relate too sorry) if anyone even bothered to protect healers, I would've healed more. I became a druid to heal/dps, but that plan turned into a joke because no one bothered to help the healers. So I became a feral druid for more protection, and it was alot more fun than having warrior dps wannabes screaming for heals, then leaving the healers to fend for themselves.

Hopefully War will be different, where tanks will do thier jobs, protecting the less armored group, where healers will be greatful and heal those helpful tanks. Yes, there will still be selfish players who will go off by themseves, but you can still hope Warhammer will change these players attitudes.

p.s. my fun and well being > yours :p so, ya i'll heal ya if your nice and protect me

[Nerak]

Because in WoW, a tank had a lot of options to get somene off a healer.

Oh wait... they didn't.

Hence why WAR is more about teamwork. Healer gets smacked, a tank can taunt the enemy off the healer and then give the healer time to regroup.

Fun is fine and dandy and hey, fun is winning. Everyone working together = more fun as Destruction owns Order. So don't be a rambo-dude.

[Bluucandi]

p.s. my fun and well being > yours :p so, ya i'll heal ya if your nice and protect me

Yes, protection should always be a mutual understanding in a party. That way the party's welfare isn't hinged on one person. In DAoC the tanks who specc Sheild receive an ability that allows them to literally block blows against the party healer. With class designs like this, group members were certianly influenced moreso to look out for one another. I hope we'll see similar designs and influences in WAR.

[ManiaCCC]

Because in WoW, a tank had a lot of options to get somene off a healer.

Oh wait... they didn't.

Hence why WAR is more about teamwork. Healer gets smacked, a tank can taunt the enemy off the healer and then give the healer time to regroup.

Fun is fine and dandy and hey, fun is winning. Everyone working together = more fun as Destruction owns Order. So don't be a rambo-dude.

As long as you will do your job, you will get my heals. If you will be just runing and screaming around "H3AL MEH!!!11", sorry, no heals except some rare situations when you will be important for victory (flag carrier or something) that's the whole point of this thread.

But look when i will be in mood i want just play for myself, i will join to scenario or into some open field battle as a solo player, and just fight on my own. I am sure i will have sometimes mood for this and Disciple looks like a good choice for this playstyle.

[Orock]

Because in WoW, a tank had a lot of options to get somene off a healer.

Oh wait... they didn't.

Hence why WAR is more about teamwork. Healer gets smacked, a tank can taunt the enemy off the healer and then give the healer time to regroup.

Fun is fine and dandy and hey, fun is winning. Everyone working together = more fun as Destruction owns Order. So don't be a rambo-dude.

Im sorry, but I ran a poll on the general website with the new "improvements" to taunt, lowering it to 30 precent less damage. 85 precent out of 140 who voted said they would continute to beat on the healer as they felt it wasent enough mitigation to make them want to switch targets. While this does buy the healer a few more precious seconds, lets not pretend because a tank taunted you your going to turn around and fight him first rather than his buddy whos healing him. This will never change in mmos, not without a revolutionary way of stopping it, such as the tank being able to absorb 70 precent of damage done to the healer, making it important to down him. Heck even then the healer is just healing him anyway.

And out of all the healer classes descriptions, it apears the best one suited to be the rambo style healer is the one who can survive in meelee, use lifetaps to give himself a 2 for one damaging heal against his opponent, and land fire and forget dots for extra hurt. The fact he can heal himself if he gets in trouble is icing on the cake. You cant discount a pvp character with all that going for him and say he would be better off being a healbot. If its not one of the first classes a mighty nerf cry goes up for I will be extremely suprised.

[Orock]

As long as you will do your job, you will get my heals. If you will be just runing and screaming around "H3AL MEH!!!11", sorry, no heals except some rare situations when you will be important for victory (flag carrier or something) that's the whole point of this thread.

But look when i will be in mood i want just play for myself, i will join to scenario or into some open field battle as a solo player, and just fight on my own. I am sure i will have sometimes mood for this and Disciple looks like a good choice for this playstyle.

A disciple apears to have all the important requirements to be a good (not just decent) choice for those who like to solo pvp. Dont let others tell you otherwise. Its not like if the urge hits you you cant just jump in an instance and play johnny healsalot until your particular itch is scratched.

[Slash]

You made pretty wrong examples. You started with magus doing some melee. So good example for Disciple whould be tanking and be sure.. you wont see Disciples tanking.. or Magus doing some melee.

But question is.. will Disciples heal others? I am sure disciples will heal. heal is too strong tool in PvP to ignore it and be sure every at least avarage disciple will use all his/her tools in combat to survive..what i am not sure if all disciples will use heal on others everytime but he/she is bad player? i don't think so.

How did I make a "wrong example"? I noted a magus melee (not playing towards their strengths). And I noted a Disciple just DPSing (again, not playing towards its strengths). I really think your just knit-picking, to try and degrade my argument.

Of course the idea of a Magus meleeing is nonsense, and the idea of a Disciple DPS less unorthodox, that doesn't cheapen the fact that by not healing others at all one would be effectively not playing there character to the fullest of its potential. Would I call a player who didn't utilise all his/her abilities effectively a bad player? Yes.

I dont think most pro self healer arguements in this thread are argueing what to do in a pre built group with guildies/friends. What they are saying is in world pvp/instances with pugs they can and will do what is most fun for them, and if that dosent include healing anyone but themselves tough nuts. You can't kick them from instances/world pvp, so that repeated threat is pointless.

Sure I agree, it is making this discussion difficult to argue. In world RVR, I do not care what others do, outside of my own group. More the merrier right? However, I plan to play in focused groups, rather than chaotic free-for-all murder fests. As I feel an organised group of 10 will always beat 15 rambling, non-healing, "OMGZ ME DPS IZ L33T!!!" players. Thusly, in my group I will except players who can heal to dps and heal others.

[Stakbok]

In a group, of course I would heal others players. This is something I like so much about the Disciples. They are a lot like Vampiirs in DAoC, but have heals for the allies, not just themselves. Which actually might be a bad thing, as people called Vampiirs over powered in DAoC. If people thought a self-healing class (with other benefits) was over powered, I bet they might think a class that has the option to self-heal and heal others is over powered, too. But maybe Mythic will find a way to work around that.

But yeah, I will certainly heal my allies. So long as they aren't being complete idiots. If, let's say, I'm with some guild mates (and this is hypothetical, mind you, especially since I'm not in a guild), and we're fighting/kicking the out of some High Elves. Some Black Guard keeps running forward alone to fight the High Elves, leaving behind everyone else. With him, I wouldn't even bother. In fact, I couldn't even bother, I expect, because I'm pretty sure, like the Vampiir, I'll have to fight to get energy to cast spells. So if someone runs out alone and gets killed when I wasn't fighting, then he'd be screwed, until I got some "energy"/mana/morale/whatever the Hell they are going to use for it.

But most of the time I will heal my allies, as long as the tanks do their jobs. But if they're not guarding me, they shouldn't even expect me to do it. Especially since I'd be likely to get killed. Well, maybe not, since this class seems like a Vampiir, who can hold itself really well one on one.

[Hoodwink]

Killing people is generally more fun than healing, but also the ability to be versatile is a great thing. War's support careers look to be versatile without the "healing only" role.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I appreciate you stating it without implying that anyone who disagrees is a "cowering pansy."

What do you mean by "you don't know how to heal competitively"? I don't get it, what about that is about healing competitively? His statement about avoiding melee or any damage for that matter is more about support careers inability to fight back generally. As a healer you keep yourself alive and keep others alive, thats generally the goal.

Competitive healing is about so much more than "playing wack a mole with health bars." No one who has played a healer in high rank Arenas in WoW or Guild Wars would describe it that way. You have to be more aware of the battlefield than any dps and are constantly making critical decisions about where to start casting that next heal or where to drop a buff. You have to predict where the next spikes are going to come all while worrying about your own ability to stay alive and avoid interuption.

So when I see someone try to trivialize what many top PvPers described as the role that makes or breaks a group how can I not be just a little offended?

Here in War however, it appears that the support careers can fight back and not have to run away.

Being able to dps does not mean you don't have to move. A magus doesn't stand still when a witch hunter starts wailing on him. I seriously doubt that any support careers except maybe the Warrior Priest and Disciple are going to be able to stand and tank a melee class. And if you have more than one on you regardless you are probably going to have to kite. Or as some people like to put it "run like a pansy."

So while your healers are busting their asses twice as hard to dps and heal you would you call them pansies for running and still expect them to care about your wellfare?

[Bluucandi]

Recently I witnessed are rather apalling event in DAoC. A healer in my guild began complaining in guild chat about how she got booted from a group for ressing someone outside the group. I can tell ya I was very irked by this and I'm going to be irked alot playing my Disiciple because my habits while playing a healy type are similar to this guildmate. The sad truth about the world of MMOs is that there are many players like these morons who booted my guildmate.

I do make my groups well being my primary concern but...

If I see a realmmate lying dead nearby calling for out for a res - I will jump at the opportunity to help them. As long as my group is not in jeapardy at the moment I will turn my attention on anyone else who's in trouble. I'd be ashamed of myself if I were pacing back and forth over a realm mates corpse ignoring their pleas.

If there's anything that will cause me to disband from a group it's the idiots who think nothing of anyone but themselves and want to monopolize on my gifts of healing. I avoid and loathe such players.

[Sindal]

Competitive healing is about so much more than "playing wack a mole with health bars." No one who has played a healer in high rank Arenas in WoW or Guild Wars would describe it that way. You have to be more aware of the battlefield than any dps and are constantly making critical decisions about where to start casting that next heal or where to drop a buff. You have to predict where the next spikes are going to come all while worrying about your own ability to stay alive and avoid interuption.

So when I see someone try to trivialize what many top PvPers described as the role that makes or breaks a group how can I not be just a little offended?



Disagree, wow pally, stand, heal, bubble, heal some more.

I've had two healers over the 2100 rating, one a resto druid in a one healer group, one my holy pally in your typical group set up. Resto druid was a , Game me headaches/heart attacks after every fight. Pally was a joke, there were times I didn't even know who we were fighting at the end of it. Possibly its a testament to my groups gear

that being said I much prefer the healing system in DAOC and hope it more resembles that.

[Hoodwink]

Disagree, wow pally, stand, heal, bubble, heal some more.


Um ok, I guess your group was much better than mine.

I admit if we could win the matches against other top teams in 12 seconds like you could just bubbling would have been enough.

Possibly its a testament to my groups gear

Wait, what? If you outgeared your opponents then the PvP wasn't really competitive was it?

[Baradun]

1 good healer can sway the outcome of any battle in your favour. I'd often follow a tank arround in *that game* pumping heals, shields and regens into him watching entire armys fall at his feet much to their dismay lol.

[Bluucandi]

1 good healer can sway the outcome of any battle in your favour. I'd often follow a tank arround in *that game* pumping heals, shields and regens into him watching entire armys fall at his feet much to their dismay lol.

In order to take objectives, for instance city seiges, you'll need to think out of the box. Tagging along behind an uber tank and healing him is thrilling. However, we'll need large, cohesive armies of players to acheive the victory and that means healers should be concerned with not only the welfare of their group mates but also any realm mates who are fighting alongside them. That's how we make successful relic raids in DAoC, working as an army of invaders not with little independant Rambo units.

[Sindal]

haha you got me there, but lets not go into "that" game anymore. That game has an incredibly borked pvp system, and this comes from someone who has 2 high warlords under "the old" system, and 3 toons with the gladiator title. I would trade all of that for one night of old school RVR on the frontiers of DAOC, it was that much better.

Of course this is beta so no one, not even the betas testers, kinow for sure how end game dmg/ hp will scale. In Daoc it was RARE for a caster not to 2 shot you, in wow it doens't happen nearly as often. Thus far it seems that the devs are going for a lower dps:hp ratio, which imo is a good thing. Healers will not have to spend as often stringing heals, and more time to actually debuff, kite etc and *gasp* maybe even do some dmg.

I still don't think the WOW duo of healer/dps will be surviving any Elf zergs. It will take a full group for most combat, and probably closer to a raid to take a lot of other targets.

IT will be interesting to see how much healing you need for a group to be succesfull, obviously it will have a slight dependence on the class makeup etc. I still think I would say 2 healers will be the min for most groups but possibly a well geared/specced healer can handle an entire group alone. Will just have to see =p

[Emeraldw99]

IT will be interesting to see how much healing you need for a group to be succesfull, obviously it will have a slight dependence on the class makeup etc. I still think I would say 2 healers will be the min for most groups but possibly a well geared/specced healer can handle an entire group alone. Will just have to see =p

Not only healing, but other things as well. Just how useful is "healing" compared to other forms of suppport? Thats my question.

[Rathenau]

Mmmh, that does remind me. Is anything known about any other 'supportive' abilities of the Disciple? I mean, yeah healing is cool but there must be more you can do to your friends apart from planting daggers in soft tissue.

Anyway I usually respond with: "I didn't heal as it is more mana-efficient to resurrect you." In certain games that might not be totally true but it’s the thought that counts.

[Sindal]

yea I would like to see them take an angle of making the disciple the melee healing guru, anti snares, snares, dmg buffs, PBT (point blade turn for you non DAOCers) and other things that will fit in with the melee guys

[Bluucandi]

yea I would like to see them take an angle of making the disciple the melee healing guru, anti snares, snares, dmg buffs, PBT (point blade turn for you non DAOCers) and other things that will fit in with the melee guys

Like a warden (PBT). I play one and she is certianly a support class. Melee'r and healer combined. Just add life taps and DoTs and she's a Disciple. Almost.

[Dracohouston]

Mmmh, that does remind me. Is anything known about any other 'supportive' abilities of the Disciple? I mean, yeah healing is cool but there must be more you can do to your friends apart from planting daggers in soft tissue.


Anyway I usually respond with: "I didn't heal as it is more mana-efficient to resurrect you." In certain games that might not be totally true but it’s the thought that counts.

Nope, that's all it does, DPS and heal.

[ManiaCCC]

Nope, that's all it does, DPS and heal.

And debuffs.

[Kaid]

I will heal when I have to, but during the periods inbetween, I will be right up front killing people no question about it. I get any lip from anyone that "one" will find him/herself wishing they hadn't said a word.

I encourage every healer to take control and be dominant in your posistion. You are the life of the party, be authoritive. You know that you have to do damage to heal and be the most effective. If some noob tells you to get back and heal and stop casting damage dealing spells or attacking then put him at the bottom of the priority list, or not heal him at all. That could not be an option if your a pacifist kinda person though so here's an alternate solution, Just sit back and do regular heals, in this game they will find out shortly that you doing damage isn't a bad thing at all.

If every healer did this you wouldn't have so many "veteran" and "expert" gamers telling you how to heal.

In short, to all you non support classes out there.

Worry about your own damn job and your heals will come one way or another.

P.S. A support character knows more about healing than a tank or any other class type so anything other than the word of the support character is nothing more than opinion.

[Aeonus]

I will heal when I have to, but during the periods inbetween, I will be right up front killing people no question about it. I get any lip from anyone that "one" will find him/herself wishing they hadn't said a word.

I encourage every healer to take control and be dominant in your posistion. You are the life of the party, be authoritive.


I could be misinterpreting this, but you are saying you will be only doing damage occasionally healing and then being the life of the party? I imagine the reason healers are thought of as this life of the party is due to their healing abilities!

Of course I could have this very wrong and you're just pointing out that we need to DPS to be effective?

[Axxar]

I always try to play my class as best as possible, so if I'm making a Disciple alt I'm going to heal others than myself. I wouldn't be able to live with being crap at playing the game on purpose.

[Iwaxmybelly]

I'm going to roll a sorcerer, but I will definitely make a disciple as well. And I am 100% certain that when I'm out there, experiencing the awesomeness of this class, I will absolutely forget to heal once in awhile. This is where I've seen problems arise in previous MMOs. Yes I forgot to heal you, and yes I am sorry and I'll pay more attention from now on. But that is no reason to kick me from the group and shout how much I suck around the server. Asking nicely is almost a guaranteed way to get support/healer archetypes to heal for awhile. I personally would never ever heal someone if they opened with "Why didn't you heal me!? Learn to play your career!"

I do enjoy healing and will definitely be healing a lot. And even though healing is going to be AWESOME in this game, I will get bored sometimes and I will get that craving to just kill something. I shouldn't have to make a new character just for that. A lot of people who roll support healers do not mind healing but just once in awhile want to DPS (I'm not saying that they should refuse to heal if they're in a group, but if they find themselves in a large scale RvR battle like a siege or something similar, they should get to take a break from their constant healing without people judging them).

Basically, don't judge a disciple not healing you or others immediately. Plenty of them would probably not have any major objection to help out with healing if they were asked nicely. I'm not saying that any of the people in this thread are like this, but it is nevertheless a reality.

[Griswelda]

If you join a group as a healer (you are informed they need a healer) then you should make some attempt to heal. If your running solo or are grouped simply by chance (maybe random invites by people in a battleground hoping for a heal, or just grouping up) then do as you please.

People can play however they choose. If you dont like their style dont invite them to your group, pretty simple really. But there is no reason to expect a Disciple to spec or play in any particular way just because it can potentially heal, just the same as a healer archetype cant make a tank use a shield and guard or the DPS use their CC or debuffs to help out.

[Kaid]

I could be misinterpreting this, but you are saying you will be only doing damage occasionally healing and then being the life of the party? I imagine the reason healers are thought of as this life of the party is due to their healing abilities!

Of course I could have this very wrong and you're just pointing out that we need to DPS to be effective?

Heh, Not that life of the party. :P

No I mean the literal life, as in live or die.

And yes we do need to DPS to be effective, so hopefully more often than not you will get yelled at to go do more damage

Heres to hoping :grin:

[rukusix]

If anyone plays any class that can heal even a little and refuses to heal at all should probably just /delete.

[Kaid]

Ha Ha.... No

[NewKid]

this string is more for pvp not pve-if your the only healing class in a group and you refuse to heal...you wont be in that group for much longer.

pvp now is a different story because a lot of times healers will just try to dps or will simply ignore a dieing teamate, i'm looking forward to War because the pvp seems to be much more group friendly-meaning that it is far more important to be with a gorup of people so that everyone can do their part.

most "healers" in War are more of a hybrid where they must deal dps befor healing. while War has made it so that healers can win fights, they are not going to make healers too strong (being able to deal a lot of dps and heal is far op)

also, those people who do insist on only healing themselves will learn pretty soon that they will lose more than they win. also if a tank knows that the healer wont heal him why in the world would he take the hits for it...people who dont heal others soon change or they just get fed up with losing soo much and quit-its a self fixing problem

[Stakbok]

I've never really played a support class before, so for me, it will be interesting to roll as a Disciple. But I can tell from what we have learned so far about the Disciples, there is no good reason to get mad at a Disciple for charging to the front line and getting in on some action himself. Especially since apparently we HAVE to fight to be able to cast healing spells. And because of that, we can assume Disciples will be efficient in DPS, even if not as much as actual DPS archetype classes.

All this talk about DAoC makes me miss the game myself. I miss my Hero. I miss MMOs in general. I miss having a computer that isn't a piece of crap.

[Xykros]

I have the feeling some of you don't know what a support class is from reading this, wonder if it's because all of them can heal in this game.

Any how, I wonder, as much as anyone wants to discuss healing vs not healing, people who dont are going to be there one way or another. It would be nice to get the optimal preformance from everyone who plays with you, but some times you get some rather special people. It's simple, as most of you said, you don't like the persons way of playing, do not play with them.

A previous post mentioned how tanks can save a healer in WoW? Intervene, Hamstring(naming something simple, because I have no interest in arguing about anything in WoW) goes a long way some times, but on the other hand support classes and healers do need to learn to fend for themselves, since it's often your protector has to kill the opposing healer before he can come smash the person trying to kill you. So trying to argue things on healing is some times highly dependent on the situation, which can range by a lot, in turn making it pointless to bring any form of 'if this happened...'.

Now don't get the above wrong, I've already said I will be healing earlier in the thread, but I have my priorities set. (Note: still talking pvp here not pve) Myself, I die I cannot heal others, long as we're playing as a team, if tank 2 dies, wont be a big deal, just sucks for tank 2. Friends, we are generally organized and I trust them over Random Player 9 to not waste my time. Then everyone else, mostly other healers and people who aren't being Captain PvP ('U GUYZ SUK I CULD WIN THIS SOLO'). Although people I wont heal, Rambo types, and people who do nothing, doesn't matter to me if you heal or not, just do something. Does that sound selfish to some? Hell yes, but nothing annoys me more than having my time wasted.

My motto for pvp healing "I have a no death policy." 8)

[Harm]

I Have played healers in a lot of games from a DnD Cleric to a WoW Priest and i will heal others IF thay are Polite and Respectful but the disciple class is not going to play like a standard healer, we will see that when the beta gets going and we have actual play xp.

As i understand it we will be a front line class geting into the fray to be able to do the lifetaps and such to be effective what i want to know is can we lifetap 4 enemys for our tank so he gets 4 hot's stuff like that or will we be only limited to 1 at a time but only time will tell as more info comes out about the classes and skills.

[Pira]

I hope that Disciples are the worst DPS class in the game so that anyone who plans on healing only themselves is an epic failure.
10 characters

[Rathenau]

Wow, now that you mention it Harm, the Dungeons and Dragons Cleric is indeed extremely nice. Substituting your healing spells for damage (be they somewhat weak and eh, well dodgy to use) it is a great way for a class to work. The system of magic might be vastly different but I do hope it will in some twisted way resemble it.
Symbol of Death!

Mha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha and ha some more!

Seriously though we really should think about making a healer union, maybe that is something to ask EA Mythic; Fellowships or as to not bump Lord of the Rings online; Companionships though that sounds rather, erm, classical Romany.
(Romany is a word? Right, anyway I did avoid the more commonly used term.)

Anyways these Fellowships could be loosely connected individuals that cannot possibly all be in the same guild but still enjoy having a chat and stuff. Like 70 healers or Dark Elves only. Sure you could call them channels and just have players figure it out, but this would be so much easier.

And yes goody good clerics are a myth.

[Kalyptein]

Actually I've noticed several things in arena in te slightly revamped WoW:
- Retards don't heal when it's needed
- A bad healer stands in middle and spams heals
- A good healer keeps out of trouble via LoS etc and heals efficiently
- A GREAT "healer" will keep out of trouble while healing BUT throw out offensive skills like fear, mana burn, paladin stun, judgement of justice (the one that stops druids running away) cyclone, feral charge, roots exactly when it is needed and cement a kill or save a DPSer from taking extra damage. Of course this needs good DPS classes that help setup these situations and make the most of them when they do happen.

The last example is where you turn into a support class and stop being a pure healer.

[Sindal]

Actually I've noticed several things in arena in te slightly revamped WoW:
- Retards don't heal when it's needed
- A bad healer stands in middle and spams heals
- A good healer keeps out of trouble via LoS etc and heals efficiently
- A GREAT "healer" will keep out of trouble while healing BUT throw out offensive skills like fear, mana burn, paladin stun, judgement of justice (the one that stops druids running away) cyclone, feral charge, roots exactly when it is needed and cement a kill or save a DPSer from taking extra damage. Of course this needs good DPS classes that help setup these situations and make the most of them when they do happen.

The last example is where you turn into a support class and stop being a pure healer.

very true... god I lofe the stand in the middle heal spam pallies... feral charge... bash... heal, war stomp thier next heal, cyclone while the stun is up. all together its like 16 secs of CC. During that time something better die

[Hoodwink]

...god I lofe the stand in the middle heal spam pallies... feral charge... bash... heal, war stomp thier next heal, cyclone while the stun is up. all together its like 16 secs of CC. During that time something better die

What?! Thats the exact point I was trying to make earlier about pvp healers doing more than just standing in one spot playing 'whack a mole.'

To which I think you replied:

Disagree, wow pally, stand, heal, bubble, heal some more.

I ducked out of this thread because I was taking stuff too personally but I'm glad to see there are other people who know that healing takes far more than just spamming heals.

[Elite16]

If you don't want to heal others. Don't roll and Support career.

.


Sorry for saying this,,,,, but that's just stupid

as i said before when i started playing my (WoW) SHADOW priest >>> i only made this char cause i love it , i never made it to heal your ,,, if you want heals go and reroll a healing class your self



P.S. I used to own the DMG meter with my Shadow priest, not to forget that ret paladins, enh shamys & feral druids can deal alot of dmg also



let's just say i like DPSing DPSing & DPSing then taking a few steps backword healing my slef and DPSing back again, it makes the pvp much more funnier for me

[Bourne]

@Elite.
Sure, there is no problem. I don't pay your subscription (and I assume neither does any other player) so you can play exactly how you wish. There are however to problems: the game is build around Group PVP, taking the keeps, sigiening the cities, claiming positions, etc etc etc. Atm it seems you can't gain much (eh.. sp?) in RVR by playing solo, so you might have to group laters in the game. If you don;t do your job right (yes, the archetype is labeled HEALER by Mythic) you are more than likely to get booted.

Second, Mythic so far doesn't seem to want us to be able to spec, like support classes in WoW could: pure damage or pure healing. They want us to do both, they want support to not only stand in the back. The effect is you might be not able to outdps a pure DPS career, ever.

However, as I said, you pay the subscription, so the decision is yours.

---

On topic: yes, I am gonna heal others.

[Rathenau]

Erm I can’t say I agree with your reasoning’s there Bourne,


It's not very fair to say that someone will get removed from a group for not playing the way you, or those likeminded, think he should play. This kind of generalization is impossible to back up with any statistics and is thus mostly subject to speculation.
Furthermore I think it's preposterous to claim to know how the developers want us to play the game they are making. Limiting a product to that degree would stifle the sales of it and is thus simply not made public, if it was even ever discussed among themselves to begin with.
Then, the fact that any class is labelled as 'healer' has no connection to what 'they' may or may not want us to do. In my mind it is rather much more simple; that it can indeed heal, while the other classes cannot.This rant actually has nothing to do with anyone personal but much rather with the general opinion of most of us, as such I really shouldn't have posted it but I did anyway. What am I thinking. Oh on a different note, it is good to say that I don't share your style of play Elite, I do respect it and I have come across many that share the same idea's that did indeed live up to them.

[Bourne]

It's not very fair to say that someone will get removed from a group for not playing the way you, or those likeminded, think he should play. This kind of generalization is impossible to back up with any statistics and is thus mostly subject to speculation.You are probably right here, but I want to ask you a question: what'd you do with a tank that doesn't tank? And what would you think about the player?

Furthermore I think it's preposterous to claim to know how the developers want us to play the game they are making. Limiting a product to that degree would stifle the sales of it and is thus simply not made public, if it was even ever discussed among themselves to begin with.Yeah, they are not telling us straight what we are goin to do, sure. What am I trying to say though, is they can give us a little "suggestions" - simply by not giving X healing career an ability to spec fully for damage (career mastery, tactics, gear etc.)


Then, the fact that any class is labelled as 'healer' has no connection to what 'they' may or may not want us to do. In my mind it is rather much more simple; that it can indeed heal, while the other classes cannot.To me it's simple: HEALer is a person who can HEAL. If he can HEAL, then he HEALs, therefore part of his job should be HEALing.


Seems you have kinda missed my point. I was trying to say Elite may not succed in this game with his playstyle (I AM _NOT_ TELLING ANYONE HOW SHOULD HE PLAY), because what is the point of the MMOs? Hell yes, teamwork ;)

[Tarantio]

You are probably right here, but I want to ask you a question: what'd you do with a tank that doesn't tank? And what would you think about the player?

Well, for one, if a person told me they were playing a Swordmaster as Dps, for instance, i would have no problem with it provided i could find a tank as well. As for what i would think about the player...Absolutely nothing differant. I am not a conceited buffoon who would think badly of a person simply because they do not do what i think they should. It seems you think differantly? Would you think badly of them? I find that very odd.


Yeah, they are not telling us straight what we are goin to do, sure. What am I trying to say though, is they can give us a little "suggestions" - simply by not giving X healing career an ability to spec fully for damage (career mastery, tactics, gear etc.)

To me it's simple: HEALer is a person who can HEAL. If he can HEAL, then he HEALs, therefore part of his job should be HEALing.

Sure thats fine, IF that person has joined the group to be a healer. If not, then he/she can do whatever they damn well please. In LOTR the Champion had a heal. Didn't make him a group healer though.He was DPS. Similar with the Shadow Priest in WoW. Sure he can heal, but he is specced for, and more importantly, desires to, DPS.


Seems you have kinda missed my point. I was trying to say Elite may not succed in this game with his playstyle (I AM _NOT_ TELLING ANYONE HOW SHOULD HE PLAY), because what is the point of the MMOs? Hell yes, teamwork ;)

You seem to misunderstand what the word teamwork means old bean.
It certainly does not mean - Do what i think is right for you!!!!

It means getting a group together and playing to their strengths, all working as one. A person who is doing a job he does not want to will not be efficient in this situation, yet as a DPS'r he will try all the harder to prove himself.

Get a healer who wants to heal.

[Zeldias]

Just to weigh in a bit...

In WoW, you could basically shift archetypes. So, for instance, I could take an Arms Warrior to tank and a Fury Warrior for DPS and it would work. WAR won't allow for that sort of roleshifting as far as I know, though, so if tanks can only spec to tank in different ways, and I get a tank that refuses to take the hits, he's getting kicked out and I'm going to decide he either just wants to play to fool around or is thickheaded for not just being a DPS class.

It's not a personal judgment, but playing an MMO is like finding a bunch of blocks and putting them in their proper holes. I don't want a guy with a circle block trying to fit in a square hole.

[Bourne]

Great, I've turned to an elite jerk already ;(
As you can see by my profile, my desired career is a Zealot. The healer. And from experience of pvp healing in other games, I pretty understand the job of a support class, the screams of other players, and all that fuss. I enjoyed hybrydism (mainly in WoW) and dps spec for my feral druid and yes, I dislike the people that tell me what to do, how should I play.

This game however is another case. The class system is unique, archetype based, and every career has desired place in RvR war effort. What I tried to explain to elite is that his mindset might not guarantee good progression in the game. For my perception, WAR gameplay and class system will be WHOLE different than in other games so far. We don't know how the combat works, how the gameplay works... I am just trying to express my feeling, which is that classes will be more effective when at least partially fulfilling their "role". Just my wild assumptions, that's all ;)


Well, for one, if a person told me they were playing a Swordmaster as Dps, for instance, i would have no problem with it provided i could find a tank as well. As for what i would think about the player...Absolutely nothing differant. I am not a conceited buffoon who would think badly of a person simply because they do not do what i think they should. It seems you think differantly? Would you think badly of them? I find that very odd.
I would agree, if you have replaced "Swordmaster" with warrior, defender or any other class name. At the moment, I don't know how class specializatons fully work.
Sure thats fine, IF that person has joined the group to be a healer. If not, then he/she can do whatever they damn well please. In LOTR the Champion had a heal. Didn't make him a group healer though.He was DPS. Similar with the Shadow Priest in WoW. Sure he can heal, but he is specced for, and more importantly, desires to, DPS.Again, the same point as above.

NN people, work tomorrow. ;/

EDIT: And yeah, Zeldias, beat me to it.

[Kharlene]

Usually when I don't vote in a poll it's because there wasn't a 'middle-ground' or an 'indifferent' choice. This time however I didn't vote because I thought the poll was just too stupid... I mean, Duty said it perfectly in the first page... It has nothing to do with just 'healing' it just has to do with being a decent player regardless of what class you're playing, to ABC it, the same type of poll can be done for EVERY class, not just 'healing': If you're a tank are you going to tank or just do damage; if you're a rdps are you going to work CC or just kill those attacking yourself; if you're mdps are you going to back up you follow players or just attack whoever you want... It's the same b.s., has purely to do with being a decent player, not just 'if you're a support class are you going to heal'?

....


Please.... :rolleyes:

[Leontes]

P.S. I used to own the DMG meter with my Shadow priest, not to forget that ret paladins, enh shamys & feral druids can deal alot of dmg also
let's just say i like DPSing DPSing & DPSing then taking a few steps backword healing my slef and DPSing back again, it makes the pvp much more funnier for me

Mmk, that's fine. In WoW, a Shadow Priest was a very viable thing. Albeit more of a 1v1 class than anything, but even in group PvP you could accomplish some great things with it.

Second, Mythic so far doesn't seem to want us to be able to spec, like support classes in WoW could: pure damage or pure healing. They want us to do both, they want support to not only stand in the back. The effect is you might be not able to outdps a pure DPS career, ever.

In WoW, you could basically shift archetypes. So, for instance, I could take an Arms Warrior to tank and a Fury Warrior for DPS and it would work. WAR won't allow for that sort of roleshifting as far as I know, though, so if tanks can only spec to tank in different ways, and I get a tank that refuses to take the hits, he's getting kicked out and I'm going to decide he either just wants to play to fool around or is thickheaded for not just being a DPS class.

Listen to these quotes, Elite16. How can you be so sure that there will be a Shadow Priest clone in Warhammer? Just like you said, Enhancement Shamans, Feral Druids, Retribution Paladins, and Shadow Priests were viable sources of PvP damage, but how do you know we'll have those options in this game?

You can't just blindly assume that since there's a Career Mastery system that there will be "dps/healing/efficiency" trees for all of the healers, and if you cap out on the damage tree then you'll just be like a Shadow Priest who doesn't need to heal to be effective.

You're making a painful assumption that healer classes are going to be given the tools to be Shadow Priests. If it turns out they can never outclass anything in damage and they don't get any real support in that direction, then there's absolutely no hope for those damage specs.

What you really mean to say is, "I hope that I can get Gear for my healer characters that emphasizes their damage, because of course Mythic is in charge of what kind of gear that I get. I can't just will damage gear into existence and plop it on my character, so I'm hoping there will be viable damage options in the form of gear. Also, I'm hoping that the healer classes have enough spells or abilities that do damage to make doing damage a viable and interesting thing, not to mention a bunch of Tactics that amplify my damage abilities and Morale nukes instead of big heals. Also, I hope there's a Career Mastery dedicated to being a damage dealing healer primarily and hopefully putting me on par with some of the classes who are labeled as damage."

You have to remember that if all that Zealots get is a Scourge spell that cannot be amplified because there is no Intelligence on their gear, no Tactic that makes it better, no Morale nukes, and no Career Mastery path that makes Scourge better, Scourge will never be a Shadow Priest's Mind Blast.

That's just fact, and the DPS Zealots who want to top the charts will be trying to do so with their pointy daggers.

Don't take my post as saying "Healers should only heal, lah dee dah! Be an asset to your team blah blah" because I understand there are people like you who want to play the class a certain way. I get that. In fact, BECAUSE I'm a dedicated healer in every game I play who doesn't concern himself with damage but rather being the most annoying lifegiver imaginable, I WANT nothing but secondary hybrid healers on my side. I want those Shamans who nuke like crazy so that when things get tough and there's too much healing for me to do on my own, I can get backup heals from super Waaagh!-powered Shamans. It'll be like having an almost-Magus who heals in emergencies and helps me do my job. He's helping me by removing enemy damage sources which puts a lesser strain on my AP bar, and he's giving me emergency heals from his Waaagh! which puts a lesser strain on my AP bar. A Zealot with a lot of AP will = a healer with longevity = a group with longevity.

But that is making the assumption that there are viable damage specs out there for all of the healer classes. I don't want anybody to really be disappointed when they blindly assume "Hey Zealot, I'm going to make a Shadow Zealot" and then pull up Career Mastery and see 3 different healing trees, with pure healing Tactics, pure healing Morale, and find out later that all of their class specific Gear is Willpower-based and not Intelligence-based.

A LOT of people are making that assumption. You can't just be a Shadow Priest because you want to be, it has to be an option that Mythic gives you.

So, here's to hoping that this game can be released with 24 different damage classes that work. It's not likely at all, but here's to it, I suppose.

[Leontes]

Seems you have kinda missed my point. I was trying to say Elite may not succed in this game with his playstyle (I AM _NOT_ TELLING ANYONE HOW SHOULD HE PLAY), because what is the point of the MMOs? Hell yes, teamwork ;)

I didn't see this part, Bourne. You understand completely.

I would welcome damage specced Zealots if they worked, but if Zealots had healing Gear, healing Tactics, healing Morales, and healing Career Masteries, and hell if they only had 2 nukes that did crap damage and they STILL wanted to dps, I'd ask why they were so concerned about being a beautiful snowflake before removing them from the group.

I'm not intolerant of offspec playstyles, I'm intolerant of bad playstyles. So if there are damage Zealots that work, send them over! We'll have the best of both worlds with twice the debuffing.

[Zeldias]

I guess I sort of agree with everyone else. I just feel like if you're a good damage dealer with some effective heals, then at least, you'll be an off-healer unless we've already got two healers and you do more damage than both of them.

Off-specs and all that are great, but unless you've managed to totally deviate from the original role to the point of becoming another class practically (Shadow Priests, Fury Warriors and Feral Druids to a lesser extent), then I want you to fulfill that role in some form like off-healer or off-tank. I've just had my fill of Priests attempting to be mages or Paladins who won't heal or buff. I mean, the list goes on from several MMOs (Tankers in CoH who don't tank, Spies in AO that never use their snipe ability). I just really dislike people not fulfilling their role in some form in a group. You can do other stuff, like a ret paladin that clobbers things, but I really do want you to do some off-healing if you can manage it, too.

Otherwise, people who are purely tanks that want to do DPS and stuff need to get a group of friends and play it with them. If you're really set on going against your archetype/class's role then you're going to need a group that's quite flexible and understanding, and I don't think most PuGs have that kind of tolerance.

[Kharlene]

Mmk, that's fine. In WoW, a Shadow Priest was a very viable thing. Albeit more of a 1v1 class than anything, but even in group PvP you could accomplish some great things with it.

Getting OT here: Actually, this is completely off, a Shadow Priest is incredible working group CC in PvP verse groups, and in my guild when doing raids we generally had a couple Shadow Priests in our pre-set raid group. In PvP, personally, with my various Shadow Priests, I did better verse a few enemies than I did just focusing on one. They are good 1v1, but their abilities are vastly better suited for working CC on a number of enemies.

/back on-topic

[Leontes]

Getting OT here: Actually, this is completely off, a Shadow Priest is incredible working group CC in PvP verse groups, and in my guild when doing raids we generally had a couple Shadow Priests in our pre-set raid group. In PvP, personally, with my various Shadow Priests, I did better verse a few enemies than I did just focusing on one. They are good 1v1, but their abilities are vastly better suited for working CC on a number of enemies.

/back on-topic

/offtopic

Yes, I said, the Shadow Priest was a viable choice. Didn't I?

Yeah, Silence was killer, a faster Scream and LOTS of dotting power was good, but their abilities kind of were more 1v1 oriented than anything. Stacking shadow vulnerability was the main way for them to turn themselves on, and it kind of required a single target focus.

And I never said anything about PvE. Vamp Embrace and Vamp Touch are godly, as well as Misery and Shadow Vulnerability. It's a liability not to bring one.

/ontopic

[Unforsaken]

Whow there nelly, pump the Fing brakes!

Relax a little. the game isnt even released yet and already people are crying aboput this guy and that guy.

Play what you want and how you want, let other people play how they like to. And to those saying that healing hybrids will never out damage a DPS class, what games have you been playing? Certainly not WoW? Cause if ya did you would know that elemental shamans have fantastic DPS, not to mention Shadow priest DPS. Im in one of the oldest horde guilds, and our main DPS since TBC was released is a shadow priest.
( On that note Im praying Warhammer online breaks wow in two over their knee! )

What I say is this, let the game come out. We dont even know what to really expect yet. The disciple might have three trees for all we know, and only one is for healing, if the Disciple doesnt wanna be healer so what? Isnt he paying for his play time?

You wont let him in your grp? NP he will find another, and you can get yerself a heal snob that bosses the group around because he can.

Just live and let live here people, stop being so damn angry about every little thing in life, you'll live longer...and have happier lives!

End note: If you love healing so much, more power to ya, just realize that others arent you, and dont live life through your eyes, they have their own.

[Dagoth]

Play however you want, really.

If damage specced healers are good and bring something new to the table, people will accept them, if they suck nobody will want them.

[Browncoat-WHA]

After 7 more pages I think it's worthy to bring up what I did back on page 2:

-Different playstyles will always exist, regardless of how viable or popular or correct they are. It's everyone's choice to play what they want.

-There will be plenty of people playing so you can always find someone who fits with your perceived notion of a class.

-"Good" healers or "Good" healing styles will emerge on their own without people declaring what they are definitively.

So...I would hope that regardless of what people think of each other's philosophy on healing that people can just end up giving it some baseline respect. Otherwise it just turns into a mindless flame-fest with people trying to assert that "their" way is right, and that's just not productive.

[Kharlene]

/offtopic

Yes, I said, the Shadow Priest was a viable choice. Didn't I?

Yeah, Silence was killer, a faster Scream and LOTS of dotting power was good, but their abilities kind of were more 1v1 oriented than anything. Stacking shadow vulnerability was the main way for them to turn themselves on, and it kind of required a single target focus.

And I never said anything about PvE. Vamp Embrace and Vamp Touch are godly, as well as Misery and Shadow Vulnerability. It's a liability not to bring one.

/ontopic

Heh... "was"... "kind of"... Please... nice try... especially trying to keep it vague and all with the "was" and "kind of"... :rolleyes: Silence is killer... and their most powerful and useful abilities are AoE (Scream = Fearing entire enemy group, Vampiric Embrace/Vampiric Touch = going for your entire group, and you slap either or both of those on more than just one enemy as well, just because their damage spells are single target focused does not necessarily = best suited for 1v1) that's far better set up for groups than 1v1, and the amount of damage a Priest can take when spec'ed right makes them even better for it. And no you didn't say anything about PvE, you didn't have to... But meh, whatever... I'm not even going to bother with this anymore...

[Zhul]

Whow there nelly, pump the Fing brakes!

Relax a little. the game isnt even released yet and already people are crying aboput this guy and that guy.

Play what you want and how you want, let other people play how they like to. And to those saying that healing hybrids will never out damage a DPS class, what games have you been playing? Certainly not WoW? Cause if ya did you would know that elemental shamans have fantastic DPS, not to mention Shadow priest DPS. Im in one of the oldest horde guilds, and our main DPS since TBC was released is a shadow priest.
( On that note Im praying Warhammer online breaks wow in two over their knee! )

What I say is this, let the game come out. We dont even know what to really expect yet. The disciple might have three trees for all we know, and only one is for healing, if the Disciple doesnt wanna be healer so what? Isnt he paying for his play time?

You wont let him in your grp? NP he will find another, and you can get yerself a heal snob that bosses the group around because he can.

Just live and let live here people, stop being so damn angry about every little thing in life, you'll live longer...and have happier lives!

End note: If you love healing so much, more power to ya, just realize that others arent you, and dont live life through your eyes, they have their own.

What guild were you in? all the top end guilds had mages/warlocks/rogues on top.... In every video i have seen or raid i have been in i havent seen any shadowpriests owning the damage meters, unless dps died. As a mage i will say the only time i ever got out dpsed by a hybrid was if i died/dc'd/sat for someone else to get loot like a nice guy.

Healers will never out dps, dps classes unless the game is stupid.... WoW made the healers WAY too close though, and they even said they did... and most of the reasons why they were close was because of the community complaining it wasnt fair that other specs were horrible for PvE. If you look now they have had to buff all the other dps classes and nerf healer dps.. Feral druids arent close to rogues anymore, mages and warlocks own priests etc.

I really hope we never see trees like healers got in WoW in WAR, there should be damage trees, but they should never make these healers stronger or very close to that of dps careers or even tanks for that matter. Heals are given to 1/4 careers for a reason, they are for the most part the strongest spells in games.

[Leontes]

Heh... "was"... "kind of"... Please... nice try... especially trying to keep it vague and all with the "was" and "kind of"... :rolleyes: Silence is killer... and their most powerful and useful abilities are AoE (Scream = Fearing entire enemy group, Vampiric Embrace/Vampiric Touch = going for your entire group, and you slap either or both of those on more than just one enemy as well, just because their damage spells are single target focused does not necessarily = best suited for 1v1) that's far better set up for groups than 1v1, and the amount of damage a Priest can take when spec'ed right makes them even better for it. And no you didn't say anything about PvE, you didn't have to... But meh, whatever... I'm not even going to bother with this anymore...

Dude, I'm totally confused now. I completely agreed with you like three times by saying that Shadow Priests "ARE" viable, my bad that I used past tense to illustrate the fact that I USED to play one and that I quit WoW a long time ago.

I just merely made a mention that the class was pretty much built for 1v1 due to the nature of their abilities, but they were still very effective in groups. Did I not? I thought I said that with my response to you as well, and I wasn't trashtalking the Shadow spec in the slightest. I just said that they're kind of built for 1v1, and that's probably what drew a lot of people to them. Would you argue that Rogues aren't built for 1v1? Are they still effective classes that bring a lot to a group? Absolutely. Shadow Priests are an asset to any group because they have the easiest to place and most powerful DoT in the game with a fast AoE Fear, a Silence, snares, and powerful group regeneration AND they still have Power Word: Shield. They're fantastic.

I played a Priest since phase 2 of beta. I know what every kind of Priest is good at and useful for, and they're all viable. I never meant for it to look like I was bashing on Shadow Priests or the people who played them, as I played one for quite some time.

You're confusing :confused:

[Herpes]

onlyhealyourselforfriendsorpeopleinyourrvrgrouptha tdon'tsuck


in all seriousness I really don't mind playing support with an organized group, but for bad pugs and solo play I could care less if you die 3 inches from me while begging for a heal, I'll keep dpsing

[vedma]

If anyone plays any class that can heal even a little and refuses to heal at all should probably just /delete.

Strange thinking you have there. We choose whatever we want and play the style we want. I had an enhacement shammy in WOW and didn't heal anyone because i was to do more damage in my spec then other true DPS' classes. How about shadow priests in WOW. They also support/dps class they don't heal but rather through dps return life and mana. The more DPS the more return.
Also all of this is speculation, no one knows what are the skills of this class will be and since it's just a Game, everyone has the choice to play a class they way they desire, and no one has right to say delete your toon since you're not healing.

[Zhul]

Strange thinking you have there. We choose whatever we want and play the style we want. I had an enhacement shammy in WOW and didn't heal anyone because i was to do more damage in my spec then other true DPS' classes. How about shadow priests in WOW. They also support/dps class they don't heal but rather through dps return life and mana. The more DPS the more return.
Also all of this is speculation, no one knows what are the skills of this class will be and since it's just a Game, everyone has the choice to play a class they way they desire, and no one has right to say delete your toon since you're not healing.

hahahhahahaahah enchancement shaman doing more damage then true dps classes, that just made my day thanks for the laugh. But hey you are 100% right you can choose however you want to play! But, when no one invites you or wants you on their team for choosing this playstyle, just remember you made that choice.

onlyhealyourselforfriendsorpeopleinyourrvrgrouptha tdon'tsuck


in all seriousness I really don't mind playing support with an organized group, but for bad pugs and solo play I could care less if you die 3 inches from me while begging for a heal, I'll keep dpsingThats cool way of thinking dude, you know that mindset was amazing for WoW. Because, it didnt really matter if you won or lost those BGs. In WAR it does matter, guess what if you decide to play that way and your group loses (which they most likely will unless the healers on their team have the same mindset) you get no VP and the other side does, then after enough of this they capture the zone, this keeps happening they reach your capital, and eventually take over your capital. Hopefully after constantly losing youll realize how flawed this playstyle is and while it may be fun.... you arent gaining anything by doing it, except more people on your faction hating you.

[Zeldias]

Now that I really think about it, it's kind of shocking to me that people don't heal and buff everyone they come across when they can. I mean, I know all about how healers tend to get abused in bad groups and stuff, but there's no reason to not just toss someone a buff or a heal unless it's really gonna cost you something.

Then again, the only healers I've played was an Adventurer in AO and my Enchancement Shaman in WoW. Since I tend to be pure melee DPS, I think I'm generally just so overjoyed to be able to do something other than stab and sneak that buffing people becomes rewarding in it's own right. I've gotten the healer abuse before, but that generally just leads to me going "lol," then leaving the group. Same as when I tried my hand at tanking. Some fool keeps stealing my aggro then blames me? I either let him die and just don't worry about it or I laugh and leave.

Generally, though, I'm so ecstatic about being able to ADD to people as opposed to just killing something off that I'm glad to heal and buff whoever I see. Even if it's some max level fighter-type guy and all I have for him is an Intelligence buff or something. I just love to buff and heal. Not to the exclusion of putting pointy steel things into fleshy living things, but if I get to put those together I'm pretty solid.

[Rathenau]

That might be the best description of the mindset to have Zeldias! Especially the part of putting pointy steel things into flesh.

Anyway I really wanted to get back at what Zhul just mentioned about 'healers' that want to deal damage not finding a group or team and them causing realms to lose in the war. (or just pain WAR)

Saying that is really the kind of generalisation that hurts others, you Zhul, have no idea how the majority of players will react to the play style of 'healers' (As in; people that can heal, but choose not to). For all we know they might be loved for their ability to cast team buffs, epic group damage enhancements or their ability to cause vicious bleeding wounds. As for people not wanting them on their team in a scenario, seeing how those will most likely be organised I don't think you'll have a choice in the matter so I'd say you'll just have to make due.
Well that brings me to your last point, that 'healers' would make their realm lose the war. Yeah, needless to say I very much doubt that they will pose such a problem that they would upset the balance, for the enemy realm would have the same problem.'

Yeah that's about it.

[Hoodwink]

I have to agree with Zhul.

If you're going to pretend to be a dps class in world RvR you're only helping yourself.

I understand that it's frustrating and annoying that other people who are just as selfish or probably more so tell you what to do or how to play your class but healers are designed to be team players. If you're not going to be one then you're not meeting your potential.

[Lord Tareq]

Its quite disturbing to see nearly 15% will only heal themselves :o

[Hoodwink]

Its quite disturbing to see nearly 15% will only heal themselves :o

Oh don't worry. That's just the people posting on this forum.

I'm sure that actual numbers will be much, much worse. :P

[Kellaris]

Its quite disturbing to see nearly 15% will only heal themselves :o

Not so much. I think more than 15% of tanks will not tank, and this may be bigger issue.

[Dracohouston]

That might be the best description of the mindset to have Zeldias! Especially the part of putting pointy steel things into flesh.

Anyway I really wanted to get back at what Zhul just mentioned about 'healers' that want to deal damage not finding a group or team and them causing realms to lose in the war. (or just pain WAR)

Saying that is really the kind of generalisation that hurts others, you Zhul, have no idea how the majority of players will react to the play style of 'healers' (As in; people that can heal, but choose not to). For all we know they might be loved for their ability to cast team buffs, epic group damage enhancements or their ability to cause vicious bleeding wounds. As for people not wanting them on their team in a scenario, seeing how those will most likely be organised I don't think you'll have a choice in the matter so I'd say you'll just have to make due.
Well that brings me to your last point, that 'healers' would make their realm lose the war. Yeah, needless to say I very much doubt that they will pose such a problem that they would upset the balance, for the enemy realm would have the same problem.'

Yeah that's about it.

Disciples won't have 'epic buffs'. That's for the 2 non dps healers. You can't have it all.

[Erean]

Not so much. I think more than 15% of tanks will not tank, and this may be bigger issue.

And 15% of DPS will roflstomp around being pretty much useless. Every archetype has bad/less than optimal players, slacking healers just are easier to notice. Someone is more likely to complain about being killed when he could have been saved with a heal than dying because enemy wasn't killed/CC'd fast enough or tanks didnt use their taunts and other defensive abilities.

That being said, I'll definitely heal. I'll even go so far as to roll multiple healing careers, with Zealot being my most healing specced and either Disciple or Shaman being more DPS/Off-Healer type. I love healing and it's the most fun I have in online games, so no reason not to do so.

[Rathenau]

True that, some simply cannot understand that your healing cannot go on forever. Disciples won't have 'epic buffs'. That's for the 2 non dps healers. Anyways Dracohouston, I'm afraid I'm not aware of that, could you tell me where you have found that information? Or are you just guessing?

[Tarantio]

Its quite disturbing to see nearly 15% will only heal themselves :o

Thing is, that is not accurate in the slightest. It only gave two options, Black or White. I voted that I wouldn't heal others. Yet the truth is more complex. I will heal people in my group. I will heal people if i notice them needing a heal. I will not, however, be actively watching over every person standing near me. I will be playing the game for myself and my friends. The very second a person says 'heal' i will ignore them.

People making demands of me simply because i liked the look of one class over another does nothing but piss me off. If im in a group as the healer, of course i will heal. But if i have made it clear i cant be bothered to heal/dont want to/want to dps then i will do what i want, finding another group if that is a problem.

This will not affect the War effort. Just the Righteous indignation of retards.

[Zhul]

That might be the best description of the mindset to have Zeldias! Especially the part of putting pointy steel things into flesh.

Anyway I really wanted to get back at what Zhul just mentioned about 'healers' that want to deal damage not finding a group or team and them causing realms to lose in the war. (or just pain WAR)

Saying that is really the kind of generalisation that hurts others, you Zhul, have no idea how the majority of players will react to the play style of 'healers' (As in; people that can heal, but choose not to). For all we know they might be loved for their ability to cast team buffs, epic group damage enhancements or their ability to cause vicious bleeding wounds. As for people not wanting them on their team in a scenario, seeing how those will most likely be organised I don't think you'll have a choice in the matter so I'd say you'll just have to make due.
Well that brings me to your last point, that 'healers' would make their realm lose the war. Yeah, needless to say I very much doubt that they will pose such a problem that they would upset the balance, for the enemy realm would have the same problem.'

Yeah that's about it.


Lol, if you dont heal, you wont be in much organized groups ill tell you that now. So no ill never have to just "deal with it" id rather kick them out and bring a dps class over them.

Thing is, that is not accurate in the slightest. It only gave two options, Black or White. I voted that I wouldn't heal others. Yet the truth is more complex. I will heal people in my group. I will heal people if i notice them needing a heal. I will not, however, be actively watching over every person standing near me. I will be playing the game for myself and my friends. The very second a person says 'heal' i will ignore them.

People making demands of me simply because i liked the look of one class over another does nothing but piss me off. If im in a group as the healer, of course i will heal. But if i have made it clear i cant be bothered to heal/dont want to/want to dps then i will do what i want, finding another group if that is a problem.

This will not affect the War effort. Just the Righteous indignation of retards.

If enough people play like this it will effect the WAR effort. People who have healers healing should and probably will win most of the fights. Also its cool you choose a class for how it looks, but then you should do research how its meant to be played and learn to play it properly and to its fullest, not healing people just because they say "heal me" is pretty childish most of the time they are saying heal me because you arent healing and they need heals. Or they are saying heal me because they are going to die because they are getting bursted. Maybe before you flip on people asking for heals, you should think why they would be calling for heals, if you are infact playing your class right and healing.

[ManiaCCC]

If enough people play like this it will effect the WAR effort. People who have healers healing should and probably will win most of the fights. Also its cool you choose a class for how it looks, but then you should do research how its meant to be played and learn to play it properly and to its fullest, not healing people just because they say "heal me" is pretty childish most of the time they are saying heal me because you arent healing and they need heals. Or they are saying heal me because they are going to die because they are getting bursted. Maybe before you flip on people asking for heals, you should think why they would be calling for heals, if you are infact playing your class right and healing.

so according you every healing character should pay full attention to all players runing around if anyone will shout "HEAL ME", he/she should just jumb out of fight and heal him/her? And if someone will die, he/she must beging for forgivnes?

[Foofmonger]

I think this is a polarizing issue because their are "degrees" of non-healing.

The first degree is not healing idiots (dpsers who overextend and constantly die, ranged dps who decide to just stand still and never kite when being assist trained).

The second degree is not healing people outside of your group/guild. In the sense that you need to focus your energy on keeping your group alive, and not random people who just happen to be hanging around.

The third degree is not healing other people at all, even those inside your group.


For the first degree, I wouldn't heal. Healing people who are just trying to die is pointless, and it makes perfect sense not to waste your time and/or energy keeping useless people alive.

For the second degree, its iffy. My group-mates will always be more important then randoms running around near us. If I played a healer, I may throw some heals to non-group/guild people, but don't expect me to try to keep you alive over a group-mate.

For the third degree, you shouldn't be playing a healer. If you can't be bothered to heal your own group-mates, you should not be playing a healing class, period.

[Zeldias]

I think this is a polarizing issue because their are "degrees" of non-healing.

The first degree is not healing idiots (dpsers who overextend and constantly die, ranged dps who decide to just stand still and never kite when being assist trained).

The second degree is not healing people outside of your group/guild. In the sense that you need to focus your energy on keeping your group alive, and not random people who just happen to be hanging around.

The third degree is not healing other people at all, even those inside your group.


For the first degree, I wouldn't heal. Healing people who are just trying to die is pointless, and it makes perfect sense not to waste your time and/or energy keeping useless people alive.

For the second degree, its iffy. My group-mates will always be more important then randoms running around near us. If I played a healer, I may throw some heals to non-group/guild people, but don't expect me to try to keep you alive over a group-mate.

For the third degree, you shouldn't be playing a healer. If you can't be bothered to heal your own group-mates, you should not be playing a healing class, period.

I'm with you there. I'd say I land on the second degree. My group and guild is always top priority above some other guys. If it comes down to it, and some guy has to die so my groupmate can live, then thems the breaks.

I like throwing random buffs on people and all that, but I'm not going to put myself or the group at risk for it.

[Zhul]

so according you every healing character should pay full attention to all players runing around if anyone will shout "HEAL ME", he/she should just jumb out of fight and heal him/her? And if someone will die, he/she must beging for forgivnes?

Where did i say that or imply that? I said the people who go i wont heal him cause hes asking for heals are the ones that need to learn, why are they screaming for heals? because A) no ones healing them B) they see you not healing.

You dont know how many times i have been slowly dieing to dots, not said a word and watched a healer just keep on nuking etc then when i die they go, why didnt you say you needed heals? Or them just completely forget they are healers and not heal anyone around them?

The reasons people HATE dps healers is because the few good ones who still heal are diminished by the amount of people who forget to heal and completely have no clue how to play their class.

[Zhul]

I think this is a polarizing issue because their are "degrees" of non-healing.

The first degree is not healing idiots (dpsers who overextend and constantly die, ranged dps who decide to just stand still and never kite when being assist trained).

The second degree is not healing people outside of your group/guild. In the sense that you need to focus your energy on keeping your group alive, and not random people who just happen to be hanging around.

The third degree is not healing other people at all, even those inside your group.


For the first degree, I wouldn't heal. Healing people who are just trying to die is pointless, and it makes perfect sense not to waste your time and/or energy keeping useless people alive.

For the second degree, its iffy. My group-mates will always be more important then randoms running around near us. If I played a healer, I may throw some heals to non-group/guild people, but don't expect me to try to keep you alive over a group-mate.

For the third degree, you shouldn't be playing a healer. If you can't be bothered to heal your own group-mates, you should not be playing a healing class, period.

Sadly alot of the players seem to have that third mentality. Thats why everyone hates dps healers, these people ignore everyone, even their group/guild mates. I dont mind not healing the idiots who run too far etc, but not healing anyone is whats absurd. Its like why are you playing the healer if you arent going to heal anyone period? go roll a melee dps or a ranged dps or even a tank.

[Dastion]

Sadly alot of the players seem to have that third mentality. Thats why everyone hates dps healers, these people ignore everyone, even their group/guild mates. I dont mind not healing the idiots who run too far etc, but not healing anyone is whats absurd. Its like why are you playing the healer if you arent going to heal anyone period? go roll a melee dps or a ranged dps or even a tank.

I have to agree. I like the idea of being able to balance damage and healing, but too many people see things in either black or white and think that they HAVE to be able to focus on damage if they choose, when the careers will obviously be balanced to do both no matter what spec. Some specs will damage better, some will heal better, but all will do both and you'd be an idiot to not play your role and then expect others to play theirs.

However, usually this problem arises from people who have the mindframe of someone who should be playing a DPS, yet isn't good enough or confident enough and therefore goes for a healing class and specs it for damage so they can heal themselves. They end up being subpar DPS and lousy healers and often very defensive about the subject because of being constantly thrown out of groups.

[Zhul]

I have to agree. I like the idea of being able to balance damage and healing, but too many people see things in either black or white and think that they HAVE to be able to focus on damage if they choose, when the careers will obviously be balanced to do both no matter what spec. Some specs will damage better, some will heal better, but all will do both and you'd be an idiot to not play your role and then expect others to play theirs.

However, usually this problem arises from people who have the mindframe of someone who should be playing a DPS, yet isn't good enough or confident enough and therefore goes for a healing class and specs it for damage so they can heal themselves. They end up being subpar DPS and lousy healers and often very defensive about the subject because of being constantly thrown out of groups.

Yep completely agree 100%

Now to all the people thinkin im totally against dps healers, im not.. I plan to bring a disciple as a bandaid healer, they will not have good healing, maybe a healing spec disciple will be a decent healer, but i see a Shaman being a much better healer, and the Zealot being the best of the destruction healers. I think the disciples will be more "bandaid healers" what i mean by this is they will top people off with hots etc and then heal as backup healers if the time comes for it. But i dont see them being primary healers ever, the other 2 i can see, but not a disciple. We'll have to see though, im thinking the disciples will be the most "dps" of the healers, but i think they will bring more utility with their debuffs etc. and their melee dps to increase their healing power, to help heal when needed.

[Tarantio]

Yep completely agree 100%

Now to all the people thinkin im totally against dps healers, im not.. I plan to bring a disciple as a bandaid healer, they will not have good healing, maybe a healing spec disciple will be a decent healer, but i see a Shaman being a much better healer, and the Zealot being the best of the destruction healers. I think the disciples will be more "bandaid healers" what i mean by this is they will top people off with hots etc and then heal as backup healers if the time comes for it. But i dont see them being primary healers ever, the other 2 i can see, but not a disciple. We'll have to see though, im thinking the disciples will be the most "dps" of the healers, but i think they will bring more utility with their debuffs etc. and their melee dps to increase their healing power, to help heal when needed.

Im not convinced by this in the slightest. I can only judge by other classes which to me sound similar, and i always come back to the Disciple of Vanguard. The disciple was a more than adequate group healer, and could pretty happily keep a group up in a dungeon, while still dps'ing pretty well. Not as well as a targetted dps'r of course, but well enough. As for their healing ability, it wasn't really any better/worse than any of the other healers, with the possible exception of the cleric (but any forgotten realms fan knows how overpowered they are :P) They had less buffs than other healers, but roughly equal healing ability, and more damage.

I see Disciples as being similar in that respect. Im presuming they will have a few less funky tricks compared to other healers, but i think they will be just as capable as any other to main heal. A terrible buzzword in MMO's these days is balance, and i don't think the game will have any single race without a capable healer.

[Tarantio]

Where did i say that or imply that? I said the people who go i wont heal him cause hes asking for heals are the ones that need to learn, why are they screaming for heals? because A) no ones healing them B) they see you not healing.

You dont know how many times i have been slowly dieing to dots, not said a word and watched a healer just keep on nuking etc then when i die they go, why didnt you say you needed heals? Or them just completely forget they are healers and not heal anyone around them?

The reasons people HATE dps healers is because the few good ones who still heal are diminished by the amount of people who forget to heal and completely have no clue how to play their class.

The problem here is you are equating 'knowing how to play their class' with those that must heal YOU personally. A person can be perfectly good at playing their class, and heal like a champion when in a group. This person however may not see it as their duty, job, or indeed game, to watch a random person they have never met and check if they are in trouble. This does not make them a bad player. It does not mean they cannot play their class. It simply means they do not care about your troubles, for better or worse. This being an RvR game, I would disaprove of this mentaility in the most part, but it is incredibly conceited to think your opinion matters to this player.

When i talk of a person demanding a heal and thus being ignored by me, i refer to those in other games who, seeing you are a healer and in the same area as them, expect you to watch over them. If I was asked nicely, i would probably help them out. If that person had even acknowledged my existence before he got into trouble, again, i might help him out. If i am happily questing away and i suddenly get a whisper/yell of 'OMG YU ARE HEALER FFS HEAL ME' then that person will forever be ignored by me. I guess its all about manners. If a person is polite, they will recieve politeness back.

[Kellaris]

Now to all the people thinkin im totally against dps healers, im not.. I plan to bring a disciple as a bandaid healer, they will not have good healing, maybe a healing spec disciple will be a decent healer, but i see a Shaman being a much better healer, and the Zealot being the best of the destruction healers. I think the disciples will be more "bandaid healers" what i mean by this is they will top people off with hots etc and then heal as backup healers if the time comes for it. But i dont see them being primary healers ever, the other 2 i can see, but not a disciple. We'll have to see though, im thinking the disciples will be the most "dps" of the healers, but i think they will bring more utility with their debuffs etc. and their melee dps to increase their healing power, to help heal when needed.

That is correct (IMO). Biggest problem with Disciple healing is that he have to go to CC first, and then he can start healing. Shaman can build Waagh much easier, and also Zealot can start healing much faster. Also, it is much easier to look at battlefield from a distance, and find who needs help. If You are in the middle of the fight it is harder to see what is going on around. Especially behind You. We do not know how powerful heals theese classes will have. Maybe Disciple heals will be stronger than shaman heals. Or maybe not. Until it is unknown, it seems that disciple is going to be secondary healer. Maybe more helpful in combat, and definately harder to kill.

And I do not think he will debuff too much. He has Damage dealing, drains and healing.
Debuffs might be too much. I do not remember any word suggesting debuffs from his description. Also, it seems that debuffs are Chaos specialty (Chosen, Magus and Zealot debuffs in some way).

[Dracohouston]

The problem here is you are equating 'knowing how to play their class' with those that must heal YOU personally. A person can be perfectly good at playing their class, and heal like a champion when in a group. This person however may not see it as their duty, job, or indeed game, to watch a random person they have never met and check if they are in trouble. This does not make them a bad player. It does not mean they cannot play their class. It simply means they do not care about your troubles, for better or worse. This being an RvR game, I would disaprove of this mentaility in the most part, but it is incredibly conceited to think your opinion matters to this player.

When i talk of a person demanding a heal and thus being ignored by me, i refer to those in other games who, seeing you are a healer and in the same area as them, expect you to watch over them. If I was asked nicely, i would probably help them out. If that person had even acknowledged my existence before he got into trouble, again, i might help him out. If i am happily questing away and i suddenly get a whisper/yell of 'OMG YU ARE HEALER FFS HEAL ME' then that person will forever be ignored by me. I guess its all about manners. If a person is polite, they will recieve politeness back.
What the hell are you on about? He just wants them to heal in general. Stop posting.

[Tarantio]

What the hell are you on about? He just wants them to heal in general. Stop posting.

Ah, good show. I see what you've done here. You've decided to ignore any point i may have made, simply because you disagree with it. Whats more, you've decided to not even bother to justify such magnaminous decisions. How about you go back to mum and let the grown-ups talk?

To anyone else, perhaps I am wrong in what i say, perhaps not. I'd love to hear reasons why though, rather than a simple attack, im fairly sure thats the purpose of a forum such as this.

[Xxpect]

I do not remember any word suggesting debuffs from his description.

This extract from the career description kind of makes me think Disciples might get some debuff enemy/buff allies type of abilities. But I could be reading too much into the vague description.

"what they reap from their enemies they give to their allies. What was once an opponent’s strength will soon become their own."

[Griswelda]

Why should anyone, healer, tank or otherwise be forced to play in a particular way just to make someone elses day better? Ok doing so might not help the team. Well dont invite them to your group, pretty simple really.

If your having trouble finding a decent healer well maybe its time to stop your whining and roll one. Otherwise put up or shut up because paying $15 a month means I and everyone else gets to play the way they want not how others want.

[Zhul]

The problem here is you are equating 'knowing how to play their class' with those that must heal YOU personally. A person can be perfectly good at playing their class, and heal like a champion when in a group. This person however may not see it as their duty, job, or indeed game, to watch a random person they have never met and check if they are in trouble. This does not make them a bad player. It does not mean they cannot play their class. It simply means they do not care about your troubles, for better or worse. This being an RvR game, I would disaprove of this mentaility in the most part, but it is incredibly conceited to think your opinion matters to this player.

When i talk of a person demanding a heal and thus being ignored by me, i refer to those in other games who, seeing you are a healer and in the same area as them, expect you to watch over them. If I was asked nicely, i would probably help them out. If that person had even acknowledged my existence before he got into trouble, again, i might help him out. If i am happily questing away and i suddenly get a whisper/yell of 'OMG YU ARE HEALER FFS HEAL ME' then that person will forever be ignored by me. I guess its all about manners. If a person is polite, they will recieve politeness back.

I never said they suck unless they personally heal me, all im saying is they need to throw out heals. The mentality of "i will only heal when i want to, such as guild groups and organized groups" was effective thinking in other games, but now you not trying to help even pugs, you will lose if they die and you get swarmed. But it gets even better, now when you lose scenarios and objectives unlike other games, it will effect your realm and cause you to lose VP and others gain them till they then capture your zones. If enough Healers play with this mentality and the other side has healers with the proper mentality, your team will constantly lose until you adapt.

Why should anyone, healer, tank or otherwise be forced to play in a particular way just to make someone elses day better? Ok doing so might not help the team. Well dont invite them to your group, pretty simple really.

If your having trouble finding a decent healer well maybe its time to stop your whining and roll one. Otherwise put up or shut up because paying $15 a month means I and everyone else gets to play the way they want not how others want.


Because this isnt a solo game? this is a team game? and for your team to win you need to play in ways you might not prefer? You playing horrible effects your side not just you now. I wont invite people who refuse to heal to my group, but them pugging it up will still cause our side to lose VPs to the opponents, which effects me no matter what.

[Dracohouston]

Ah, good show. I see what you've done here. You've decided to ignore any point i may have made, simply because you disagree with it. Whats more, you've decided to not even bother to justify such magnaminous decisions. How about you go back to mum and let the grown-ups talk?

To anyone else, perhaps I am wrong in what i say, perhaps not. I'd love to hear reasons why though, rather than a simple attack, im fairly sure thats the purpose of a forum such as this.
You didn't even read his posts and just went off on some stupid tangent. Now get the hell out of our thread.

[Xxpect]

I think it is way too early to make sweeping comments like "I'll never team with a healer who doesn't heal". There is too much unknown information about the careers and abilities they will bring and the synergies between all the different careers. In DAOC Friars were considered a secondary healer and a lot of them specced for their DPS. They were always welcome in groups, not as a healer, but as a DPSer who could act as a backup healer as well as help in the buff department. The Paladin in DAOC was considered a hybrid class, but they were often performing the role of "main tank" because of the fact that their chants not only made them as tough as the "tank" class, but they improved the performance and survivability of the entire group.

Sometimes a "hybrid" career has more to offer than just heals and they may be desireable for the other abilities they bring to a group. Lots of good groups usually have primary healers and backup healers and a Disciple might make the best backup healer depending on the other abilities they bring to the table.

To get back to the original topic...I will heal others, but I won't focus on healing exclusively unless healing is all a Disciple can do well, and in that case I will probably roll some other career. I know that my friends and guildmates will let me play the way I want to and will be glad to have me in their group because I won't try to force a class to be something it isn't and will always play in a manner that brings something to the group.

[Dracohouston]

I think it is way too early to make sweeping comments like "I'll never team with a healer who doesn't heal". There is too much unknown information about the careers and abilities they will bring and the synergies between all the different careers. In DAOC Friars were considered a secondary healer and a lot of them specced for their DPS. They were always welcome in groups, not as a healer, but as a DPSer who could act as a backup healer as well as help in the buff department. The Paladin in DAOC was considered a hybrid class, but they were often performing the role of "main tank" because of the fact that their chants not only made them as tough as the "tank" class, but they improved the performance and survivability of the entire group.

Sometimes a "hybrid" career has more to offer than just heals and they may be desireable for the other abilities they bring to a group. Lots of good groups usually have primary healers and backup healers and a Disciple might make the best backup healer depending on the other abilities they bring to the table.

To get back to the original topic...I will heal others, but I won't focus on healing exclusively unless healing is all a Disciple can do well, and in that case I will probably roll some other career. I know that my friends and guildmates will let me play the way I want to and will be glad to have me in their group because I won't try to force a class to be something it isn't and will always play in a manner that brings something to the group.
I know, because I talk to testers.

Disciples will never DPS more than a witch elf, and you will never EVER have trouble healing and DPSing at the same time. If they don't do both they suck. The mechanic they get is so fool proof that there's no way you can not be a healer and DPS at the same time. This isn't some class that can be specced DPS or Heals. You don't get locked out of healing ever.

There was an interview where one of the designers talked about how in other games they played healers, but found they had to spec a DPS spec to solo that gimped their healing. When they got into groups they couldn't do what they wanted to do: heal.

So their solution is to make them be able to solo without ruining their healing. You can not turn into a feral druid, shadow priest etc. Your heal butttons are there the whole time, and they are easily pushed WHILE you are fighting. And if you don't, you aren't playing your class. You'll be some substandard melee DPS.

[Nightsoldier]

I think it is way too early to make sweeping comments like "I'll never team with a healer who doesn't heal". There is too much unknown information about the careers and abilities they will bring and the synergies between all the different careers. In DAOC Friars were considered a secondary healer and a lot of them specced for their DPS. They were always welcome in groups, not as a healer, but as a DPSer who could act as a backup healer as well as help in the buff department. The Paladin in DAOC was considered a hybrid class, but they were often performing the role of "main tank" because of the fact that their chants not only made them as tough as the "tank" class, but they improved the performance and survivability of the entire group.

Sometimes a "hybrid" career has more to offer than just heals and they may be desireable for the other abilities they bring to a group. Lots of good groups usually have primary healers and backup healers and a Disciple might make the best backup healer depending on the other abilities they bring to the table.

To get back to the original topic...I will heal others, but I won't focus on healing exclusively unless healing is all a Disciple can do well, and in that case I will probably roll some other career. I know that my friends and guildmates will let me play the way I want to and will be glad to have me in their group because I won't try to force a class to be something it isn't and will always play in a manner that brings something to the group.

The thing is i wont group with a healer who refuses to heal. Some people are like that. Even if they are assigned back up heal they still refuse to heal and why bring a support class who refuses to give any support whatsoever?

Yes sometimes a hybrid class can bring more then heals but again if they refuse to use any abilities but damage dealing abilities then that paladin would be less useful then a normal tank right? He wouldnt be useing his chants then he wouldnt be helping his group or tanking well. Disicples may be a good backup healer but thats just it, they have to backup heal.

From the sounds of mythic i think you will be able to paly all healing classes like you described. you can go heavy support and do some damage or heavy damage and doing support.

The thing is in other games people refused to heal whatsoever when there class is made to heal. It really boils down to dont roll a healing class if you dont want to heal at all. If you want to throw some heals out while bashing heads its still fine in a group but jsut bashing heads is not the support careers job.

[Tarantio]

I never said they suck unless they personally heal me, all im saying is they need to throw out heals. The mentality of "i will only heal when i want to, such as guild groups and organized groups" was effective thinking in other games, but now you not trying to help even pugs, you will lose if they die and you get swarmed. But it gets even better, now when you lose scenarios and objectives unlike other games, it will effect your realm and cause you to lose VP and others gain them till they then capture your zones. If enough Healers play with this mentality and the other side has healers with the proper mentality, your team will constantly lose until you adapt.

Well at least you have the decency to actually answer salient points rather than to simply be a tosser.

I think you are probably right that it will almost certainly be much better for the overall war effort if every healer focusses on healing, every tank on tanking, etc etc. However when all is said and done, this is a game. This being so, people can, and will, play exactly how they want to play. I personally don't think it should be held against a person that they want to only heal themselves. Sure, i wouldn't invite a non-healing disciple to heal my group, but i might invite him as dps or just backup.

The idea that a lot of people seem to have is 'don't role a healing class if you arent going to heal'. However in most other games a heal-based class can be specced to do a differant job pretty well. ( Clerics in D&D, Disciples in Vanguard, Shadow priests/Ele shamans in wow.) These people can provide a huge bonus to any group, and should not be ignored simply because they chose not to heal.

As for Draco...read back a little in the thread. You will see the post i was referancing. Something Zhul seemed to realise. Grow up.

[Slash]

However in most other games a heal-based class can be specced to do a differant job pretty well. ( Clerics in D&D, Disciples in Vanguard, Shadow priests/Ele shamans in wow.) These people can provide a huge bonus to any group, and should not be ignored simply because they chose not to heal.

Please people this isn't "most games". This is WAR, in the other games you are talking about Tarantio, the specialising system allowed them to specialise into a totally different Archetype. WAR does not allow this, in war you can specilise into a more offensive style of play, but you will still be a healer, no two ways about it. And please do not use the Cleric example they were ludicrously overpowered. WAR will have the intelligence (hopefully) to balance group play quite well. If you invite a Disciple into your group as DPS over a Witch Elf, well thats just poor leadership on your behalf.

[Zhul]

Well at least you have the decency to actually answer salient points rather than to simply be a tosser.

I think you are probably right that it will almost certainly be much better for the overall war effort if every healer focusses on healing, every tank on tanking, etc etc. However when all is said and done, this is a game. This being so, people can, and will, play exactly how they want to play. I personally don't think it should be held against a person that they want to only heal themselves. Sure, i wouldn't invite a non-healing disciple to heal my group, but i might invite him as dps or just backup.

The idea that a lot of people seem to have is 'don't role a healing class if you arent going to heal'. However in most other games a heal-based class can be specced to do a differant job pretty well. ( Clerics in D&D, Disciples in Vanguard, Shadow priests/Ele shamans in wow.) These people can provide a huge bonus to any group, and should not be ignored simply because they chose not to heal.

As for Draco...read back a little in the thread. You will see the post i was referancing. Something Zhul seemed to realise. Grow up.

Ok, if im going to invite a disciple as a primary dpser to a group id rather invite a primary dpser. If i bring him to backup and bandaid heal then i expect them to heal when needed to help the other healer/healers out.

Also shadowpriests in group PvP were horrible, the only one out of all the dps healers i would bring is an ele shaman, because they are really good in PvP damage. But all the other healer dps specs are pretty bad. Shadowpriest is ok, but they dont bring as much utility damage wise. The ele shaman brings nice burst, grounding totems, and can backup heal if needed. The shadowpriest in shadowform brings dots, fear and cant heal because of shadowform, not to mention when i was playing WoW my mage rarely lost to a shadowpriest in a 1 on 1 or group scenario. Shadowpriests if they could heal in shadowform would be amazing, but since they cant they arent worth bringing to a PvP group that is going to be competitive.

[Griswelda]

I never said they suck unless they personally heal me, all im saying is they need to throw out heals. The mentality of "i will only heal when i want to, such as guild groups and organized groups" was effective thinking in other games, but now you not trying to help even pugs, you will lose if they die and you get swarmed. But it gets even better, now when you lose scenarios and objectives unlike other games, it will effect your realm and cause you to lose VP and others gain them till they then capture your zones. If enough Healers play with this mentality and the other side has healers with the proper mentality, your team will constantly lose until you adapt.
Then roll a healer to even the odds. Really if theres crappy healers on one side then theres bound to be just as many on the other. Just as there will be crap DPS and tanks who refuse to support.

Because this isnt a solo game? this is a team game? and for your team to win you need to play in ways you might not prefer? You playing horrible effects your side not just you now. I wont invite people who refuse to heal to my group, but them pugging it up will still cause our side to lose VPs to the opponents, which effects me no matter what.
Again your putting yourself ahead of others. Can I expect every tank to spec shield and stand beside me protecting me from DPS classes? No. So why should healers be forced to into a playstyle they dont want.

Grouping may be the way you like to play but there are plenty who dont, or like to occasionally solo, especially when they are tired of healing PuGs.

Finally this isnt just about DPSing (Nobody expects healers to out DPS other classes), healers have buffs/debuffs, CC, and DPS. If they are specced so, they can contribute far more than simply healing. You speak as if without heals they contribute nothing to a fight, I think you will be proved very wrong.

[Dracohouston]

As for Draco...read back a little in the thread. You will see the post i was referancing. Something Zhul seemed to realise. Grow up.
I did. Zhul didn't say anything about them healing him. You put words into his mouth. Quit crapping on this thread.

[Dracohouston]

Then roll a healer to even the odds. Really if theres crappy healers on one side then theres bound to be just as many on the other. Just as there will be crap DPS and tanks who refuse to support.


Again your putting yourself ahead of others. Can I expect every tank to spec shield and stand beside me protecting me from DPS classes? No. So why should healers be forced to into a playstyle they dont want.

Grouping may be the way you like to play but there are plenty who dont, or like to occasionally solo, especially when they are tired of healing PuGs.

Finally this isnt just about DPSing (Nobody expects healers to out DPS other classes), healers have buffs/debuffs, CC, and DPS. If they are specced so, they can contribute far more than simply healing. You speak as if without heals they contribute nothing to a fight, I think you will be proved very wrong.
Quit acting like you can be a shadow priest in this game. You can't be. Melee healers are true hybrids no matter what spec.

Stop telling him to roll a healer, he's rolling a tank.

And how is he putting himself before all others? Read his posts, he wants people to do their part for the team.

And when did he say they have to just heal?

You're both arguing about some crap no one is talking about.

[Zhul]

Then roll a healer to even the odds. Really if theres crappy healers on one side then theres bound to be just as many on the other. Just as there will be crap DPS and tanks who refuse to support.


Again your putting yourself ahead of others. Can I expect every tank to spec shield and stand beside me protecting me from DPS classes? No. So why should healers be forced to into a playstyle they dont want.

Grouping may be the way you like to play but there are plenty who dont, or like to occasionally solo, especially when they are tired of healing PuGs.

Finally this isnt just about DPSing (Nobody expects healers to out DPS other classes), healers have buffs/debuffs, CC, and DPS. If they are specced so, they can contribute far more than simply healing. You speak as if without heals they contribute nothing to a fight, I think you will be proved very wrong.

First off stop acting like you have played the game and start saying more opinion based statements, you are trying to act like you have facts when its clear you do not. And before you say im stating facts, in most cases i am because of what they have stated, and from videos i have seen or leaks on random no name forums from the beta of the game. But never have i broken the NDA in anything i have posted so dont even try that, and no i am not in beta yet, but i believe highly no one should post NDA stuff, but i will not disregard any NDA stuff that does get posted.

Now to your question "Why dont you roll a healer?" because i dont like to heal, BUT WHEN I DO play healers in games, i heal.

Im rolling a tank, do i expect every tank to use a shield and sword and protect others? hell no because i sure as hell wont be. I will however use a 2 hander and use as many defensive abilities i can to protect my group. IF THE TIME calls for it I WILL use a shield and sword, but primarily on my BG i will be using a 2 hander.

Bad players exist in every class, there will be range and melee dps who have roots who dont use them strategically but only to protect themselves, healers who only heal themselves and tanks who refuse to use defensive tools given to them. These are all bad players, but generally the Healer community has the most bad player who try to be dpsers on their Healers. And from the threads and defensive statements made by people planning to play healer, i will not sway from what i have said. The healer community generally has the most bad players who play their classes incorrectly. And before you say who am i to say someone is playing it incorrect? I am someone who can see what classes are meant to do/be played based of past experiences, and one who has listened to how mythic plans for these classes to be played in this game.

[Griswelda]

Quit acting like you can be a shadow priest in this game. You can't be. Melee healers are true hybrids no matter what spec.
I assumed all the healer classes were hybrids. Not sure where you pulled the idea about shadow priests from.
Stop telling him to roll a healer, he's rolling a tank.
Yeah and hes still trying to tell healers how they have to play.
And how is he putting himself before all others? Read his posts, he wants people to do their part for the team.
What if they want to solo? What if they are sick of wasting heals on players who themselves arent interested in doing the team thing? Scenarios will be the same in WAR as in WoW some players wil fight as a group others will run around like idiots, healing the latter is not only pointless but also aggravating.
And when did he say they have to just heal?
Not one person arguing for healers must heal others has spoken a word about the potential of other abilities, so its pretty safe to assume getting a heal is all you care about.
You're both arguing about some crap no one is talking about.
What crap is that? The fact you and others have already pigeonholed an entire archetype without playing the game and refuse to accept some people might like to play a game in a different manner to you? If thats crap then I dont know what to call the rubbish your coming out with.

[Zhul]

I assumed all the healer classes were hybrids. Not sure where you pulled the idea about shadow priests from.

Yeah and hes still trying to tell healers how they have to play.

What if they want to solo? What if they are sick of wasting heals on players who themselves arent interested in doing the team thing? Scenarios will be the same in WAR as in WoW some players wil fight as a group others will run around like idiots, healing the latter is not only pointless but also aggravating.

Not one person arguing for healers must heal others has spoken a word about the potential of other abilities, so its pretty safe to assume getting a heal is all you care about.

Yep completely agree 100%

Now to all the people thinkin im totally against dps healers, im not.. I plan to bring a disciple as a bandaid healer, they will not have good healing, maybe a healing spec disciple will be a decent healer, but i see a Shaman being a much better healer, and the Zealot being the best of the destruction healers. I think the disciples will be more "bandaid healers" what i mean by this is they will top people off with hots etc and then heal as backup healers if the time comes for it. But i dont see them being primary healers ever, the other 2 i can see, but not a disciple. We'll have to see though, im thinking the disciples will be the most "dps" of the healers, but i think they will bring more utility with their debuffs etc. and their melee dps to increase their healing power, to help heal when needed.

Pretty sure i have.........

I cant wait till all the people who think they are going to be amazing players on healers without healing get to actually play the game and do one of a few things

A) Realize how wrong they were and roll a dps class.
B) Keep playing the class wrong and being horrible and not care what anyone else says.
C) Start playing their class to their fullest.
D) Quit the game because no one will play with them while they have the mindset of heals for only themselves and dps dps dps, and they can never win Pugging because they dont try to help their team out by throwing heals out.

But yea dude no one is saying heal 24/7, everyone has said moderate the heals and dps and realize you need to do both to be effective at your class, and by doing both that doesnt only mean to heal yourself.

[Dracohouston]

What the christ is Griswelda on about?

I don't care if they want to solo

I don't care if they don't heal someone they don't like

I only care if they will never ever heal when in a group because they think they are DPS only.

To argue some random stuff outside of this is getting completely off track. The thread is about whether the people playing disciple will heal others, at all. The past 3 pages have gone off on some tangent of you and that other dude putting words into Zhul's mouth and trying to beat him in some debate that isn't even happening.

[Nightsoldier]

I think this arguement boils down to palyers playing how they like to an players playing to the full extent of there classes. Those are the two sides of the arguement really. a healer will only truly be effective if they are healing/buffing there allies. The other side is that players should be able to play how they like but do you really want a healer who refuses to heal in your group?

There are two play main play styles from what ive heard. healing more and damaging less or damaging more and healing less. There may be variations on the two of these. but everyone has to notice that both of these has healing in it because healers will not be accepted into groups unless they do some healing.

Id just like to ask that we stop arguing and take ourselves and our pride out of this thread. It seems to be going downhill lately and it could be a very good debate. This shouldnt be a arguement with with clashing views but a respectful debate. This thread is going straight to a lock now and i dont really want to see that guys.

[Dracohouston]

I think this arguement boils down to palyers playing how they like to an players playing to the full extent of there classes. Those are the two sides of the arguement really. a healer will only truly be effective if they are healing/buffing there allies. The other side is that players should be able to play how they like but do you really want a healer who refuses to heal in your group?

There are two play main play styles from what ive heard. healing more and damaging less or damaging more and healing less. There may be variations on the two of these. but everyone has to notice that both of these has healing in it because healers will not be accepted into groups unless they do some healing.

Id just like to ask that we stop arguing and take ourselves and our pride out of this thread. It seems to be going downhill lately and it could be a very good debate. This shouldnt be a arguement with with clashing views but a respectful debate. This thread is going straight to a lock now and i dont really want to see that guys.
There really isn't much to debate. As you say there's only spec for more damage, no spec for damage, and healing is an ever present part of the class that should be used.

[Tarantio]

There really isn't much to debate. As you say there's only spec for more damage, no spec for damage, and healing is an ever present part of the class that should be used.

As much as it seems as though you will absolutely refuse to accept that anyones opinion than yours is valid, i must offer at least another possiblity.

Sure, no-one is saying that people playing these classes will NEVER heal. People are merely pointing out that they will not ALWAYS heal. Sometime, they will mind their own business, play by themselves, and heal only themselves.

No-one is trying to beat Zhul (who i presume is your friend/lover), they are merely trying to discuss possibilities. You, however seem to pigheaded too accept discussion, so one must question why you are on a discussion board.


To reiterate. Some people believe that people who roll healers must ALWAYS heal. Others disagree, and say they will heal only when they want to. This came to being from people saying that the poll is too black and white. A person, according to the poll, will either heal , or they will never, ever heal. Some people fall into the middle, and were just letting their thoughts be known, until Draco became ignorant and abusive.

[Dracohouston]

As much as it seems as though you will absolutely refuse to accept that anyones opinion than yours is valid, i must offer at least another possiblity.

Sure, no-one is saying that people playing these classes will NEVER heal. People are merely pointing out that they will not ALWAYS heal. Sometime, they will mind their own business, play by themselves, and heal only themselves.

No-one is trying to beat Zhul (who i presume is your friend/lover), they are merely trying to discuss possibilities. You, however seem to pigheaded too accept discussion, so one must question why you are on a discussion board.


To reiterate. Some people believe that people who roll healers must ALWAYS heal. Others disagree, and say they will heal only when they want to. This came to being from people saying that the poll is too black and white. A person, according to the poll, will either heal , or they will never, ever heal. Some people fall into the middle, and were just letting their thoughts be known, until Draco became ignorant and abusive.
To reinterate. There is a poll asking people to say whether they will not heal. Tarantio completely misses the point, starts nagging at other posters and craps all over the thread.

No one is saying they have to always heal. You're creating a conflict when there is none. Get out.

[Tarantio]

To reinterate. There is a poll asking people to say whether they will not heal. Tarantio completely misses the point, starts nagging at other posters and craps all over the thread.

No one is saying they have to always heal. You're creating a conflict when there is none. Get out.

Ah, i apologise. I didn't realise you were retarded.

[Zhul]

No-one is trying to beat Zhul (who i presume is your friend/lover), they are merely trying to discuss possibilities. You, however seem to pigheaded too accept discussion, so one must question why you are on a discussion board.

Only thing i really want to address is this, how do you even know if he is my friend? he might be someone who has the same opinion as me etc. I wish you would have left out the whole lover thing, either you meant it as he is a chick or you are trying to imply something else which offends me because that is not my preferred lifestyle like it is for others, so id appreciate it if you try not to make witty comments like that.

Sure, no-one is saying that people playing these classes will NEVER heal. People are merely pointing out that they will not ALWAYS heal. Sometime, they will mind their own business, play by themselves, and heal only themselves.And this is where i tell you, that works in other games but in this game if you are pvping and play only for yourself then you do not belong. This is a team based game if you have days where you feel like playing only for yourself, then i suggest PvEing or doing something that wont screw over the people around you.

[Dracohouston]

I find it funny that he calls me abusive because I'm telling him he's creating a lot of white noise in a perfectly good thread. Then goes on to call me names/insinuate that I'm . Good work.

[Carnifex Chillwind]

I find it funny that he calls me abusive because I'm telling him he's creating a lot of white noise in a perfectly good thread. Then goes on to call me names/insinuate that I'm . Good work.


Just pointing something out. Maybe its because your avatar is a picture of a woman. Amazing how you put words in his mouth when he never called anybody "" while accusing him of putting words into other people's mouths. Hypocrisy at its finest. And its obvious that your the troll in this situation. One sentence posts that offer nothing to the conversation just screams "TROLL" to me.

And for all you incredibly dense people out there. Quoted directly from the Warhammer Online website(my own underlines):

"The Disciple of Khaine is a true master of murder. Trained in the dark rites of Khaine, a Disciple can steal the strength of a soul with just a nip of their razor sharp blades. With the essence of s soul taken from their opponents, the Disciple can enact dark rites, calling upon Khaine’s favor to bless Druchii warriors. This can make soldier immune to pain and even raise the dead to fight once more. A Disciple is also a consummate fighter and skilled torturer for Khaine relishes the essence taken from a slow agonizing demise over that of a quick well placed deathblow.

"The Disciple of Khaine must be in close range of his opponent as he requires the blood of the enemy to enact their dark rites. As such, a Disciple is trained both with the blade and the dark arts, capable of weaving the two into a staggering blend of offensive and defensive power. In small fights, the Disciple is a master of shifting the balance of a fight; what they reap from their enemies they give to their allies. What was once an opponent’s strength will soon become their own."



The only part of that entire thing that even suggests HEALING is the part I made bold. Everything implies something other than healing. Its a SUPPORT class not a healing class. If your not getting healed you automatically think they suck. So I guess WoW priests who use Pain Suppression on you suck too, because its not a heal /sarcasm.

By the By, healing is why MMOs are almost impossible to balance.

To be a little more on topic. I would heal if I felt the situation justified it, but I'm not wasting resources on a lost cause or if were gonna win anyway.

Thanks

[Dracohouston]

Just pointing something out. Maybe its because your avatar is a picture of a woman. Amazing how you put words in his mouth when he never called anybody "" while accusing him of putting words into other people's mouths. Hypocrisy at its finest. And its obvious that your the troll in this situation. One sentence posts that offer nothing to the conversation just screams "TROLL" to me.

And for all you incredibly dense people out there. Quoted directly from the Warhammer Online website(my own underlines):

"The Disciple of Khaine is a true master of murder. Trained in the dark rites of Khaine, a Disciple can steal the strength of a soul with just a nip of their razor sharp blades. With the essence of s soul taken from their opponents, the Disciple can enact dark rites, calling upon Khaine’s favor to bless Druchii warriors. This can make soldier immune to pain and even raise the dead to fight once more. A Disciple is also a consummate fighter and skilled torturer for Khaine relishes the essence taken from a slow agonizing demise over that of a quick well placed deathblow.

"The Disciple of Khaine must be in close range of his opponent as he requires the blood of the enemy to enact their dark rites. As such, a Disciple is trained both with the blade and the dark arts, capable of weaving the two into a staggering blend of offensive and defensive power. In small fights, the Disciple is a master of shifting the balance of a fight; what they reap from their enemies they give to their allies. What was once an opponent’s strength will soon become their own."



The only part of that entire thing that even suggests HEALING is the part I made bold. Everything implies something other than healing. Its a SUPPORT class not a healing class. If your not getting healed you automatically think they suck. So I guess WoW priests who use Pain Suppression on you suck too, because its not a heal /sarcasm.

By the By, healing is why MMOs are almost impossible to balance.

To be a little more on topic. I would heal if I felt the situation justified it, but I'm not wasting resources on a lost cause or if were gonna win anyway.

Thanks
You don't know anything about the class. You build up soul points with your melee abilities and use those to cast heals. I go by what people tell me instead of what was written by the marketing department on the web site.

And why would anyone with a vagina IRL post with this avatar? Are you seriously trying to say that I could possibly be mistaken for a girl? What the hell.

Then there's more putting words into people's mouths. I take it you skipped the whole thread then, because you're saying that I'm saying that I want people to heal all the time. This tells me that you are just here to argue because you want to argue. So get out too.

For the record, pain suppress is my favourite spell on my priest.

Thanks

[Slash]

Just pointing something out. Maybe its because your avatar is a picture of a woman. Amazing how you put words in his mouth when he never called anybody "" while accusing him of putting words into other people's mouths.

I can tell Draco is male. It isn't difficult. Even if Tarintino(SP) didn't realise it, how could he be sure if Draco was female either? So he knowingly used the term lover with some indication that Draco could be a man. In addition even if one was male, and the other female, I still find somebody who is implying over internet gaming forums that two people are having an intimate relationship, is an insensitive smart arse.


"The Disciple of Khaine is a true master of murder. Trained in the dark rites of Khaine, a Disciple can steal the strength of a soul with just a nip of their razor sharp blades. With the essence of s soul taken from their opponents, the Disciple can enact dark rites, calling upon Khaine’s favor to bless Druchii warriors (this part shouldn't have been underlined at all, instead all bolded). This can make soldier immune to pain and even raise the dead to fight once more. A Disciple is also a consummate fighter and skilled torturer for Khaine relishes the essence taken from a slow agonizing demise over that of a quick well placed deathblow.

"The Disciple of Khaine must be in close range of his opponent as he requires the blood of the enemy to enact their dark rites. As such, a Disciple is trained both with the blade and the dark arts, capable of weaving the two into a staggering blend of offensive and defensive power. In small fights, the Disciple is a master of shifting the balance of a fight; what they reap from their enemies they give to their allies. What was once an opponent’s strength will soon become their own."

Please, that text is just there to make people drool over the keyboard. We all know that the Disciple is just as much a healer as the Shaman or Zealot. And I've highlighted more information for you.

Its a SUPPORT class not a healing class. If your not getting healed you automatically think they suck. So I guess WoW priests who use Pain Suppression on you suck too, because its not a heal /sarcasm. Wow terrible example. What else do you think Dis Priests do? Pain Suppression is really just a form of healing, like PW:S is.


By the By, healing is why MMOs are almost impossible to balance.
Yes and no. It may be difficult to do so. However, it is no way impossible to do so, by the by (:p).

[Montz]

ive voted yes (i think, haha, to tired)

it anywayz... i really like building chars the way they are NOT supposed to be... just to feel unique... and sumtimes you ends up with sumthing playable...

dont NEED to be the BEST healer, dps, tank or what the last one is....

but i NEED to feel like i cheated the game and found a way around.... (yea i know)

[Ethandril]

I have voted, Yes, i will heal others if needed.

But I have to admit, that "healing" isn't the right term, in association with Khaine and his
devotees like the Disciple.

Its's more like:

I will cure, if needed,
I will mend, if needed and
I will restore, if needed.

[Dagoth]

I don´t want to get banned so I will say just 2 things:

- I agree with Zhul and Draco
- What the hell, Tarantio? Go away.

[Slash]

But I have to admit, that "healing" isn't the right term, in association with Khaine and his
devotees like the Disciple.

Oh the irony. :p.

On Topic: Its dis-encouraging to see that 13-14% of the Disciple community will not be healing others at all.

[Archangel-WHA]

This isn't worth my time to pick through and dish out infractions.

Guys: shut up. You've lost your right to this topic.

I bring you silence