Male Sorcerer Costume Redo

[Athenys]

I made a collage in photoshop using 'wen-m's' art:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDO.jpg

Let me know what you think...

UPDATE: I worked on the face a bit more.

[Dan gerous]

Wow, not bad at all. Adds a bit more flavor eh. The face could use some work though ;)

Would get people to stop complaining about the male and female differences in clothing.

Kudos.

[Gorechild]

I made a collage in photoshop using 'wen-m's' art:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDO.jpg

Let me know what you think...

I think Mythic needs to hire you. Win.

[Kellaris]

Great job :p I suggest to send it to fanart cometiton. If they will not use that, at least You will get into Beta.

[The Penguin Hunter]

I made a collage in photoshop using 'wen-m's' art:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDO.jpg

Let me know what you think...

UPDATE: I worked on the face a bit more.


Agreed, now this seems more fitting for the male counter part, they now look like a proper slaneesh worshiper :)

Also, i'm adding that into my collect of WAR concept and fan art that's a good job

[Sinfjotle]

Those gloves. Those gloves are awesome. The tattoos are quite a nice touch too.

[Dracohouston]

Cover up the text (except your signature of course :) ) and send that into the fan art contest. That's gotta be worth a beta slot!

[Zzulu]

It's a good drawing but I very much prefer the mythic concept art

[Calameth]

Zzulu you're just jealous cuz he's gonna get a beta slot :D

[Kharlene]

That's how the Sorcerer's should be! Male and female BOTH flashing skin! Equality! <333!!! Awesome job! :mrgreen:

[Ganymed]

good work indeed.

but for my taste he looks too feminine.

[Dyst]

Changed the career from sophisticated into more barbaric. I'm not too fond of it, though good effort.

[Athenys]

But for my taste he looks too feminine.

Tell him that...then run :p.

Why is it that some guys see a bare male chest and then claim it looks '' :confused:. If anything a bare torso on a woman is 'manly' because it's far more socially acceptable for men to go topless in public places :rolleyes:. Try that as a woman and you'll get arrested for indecent exposure!

[Lucrece]

OMG....Athenys, good job!

The chest does look too pumped up in comparison to the arms, might want to have more consistency between both, but your concept is just what I've imagined.

The tattoo's are great! The gloves would perhaps go better with some recoloring. I wish I could do these beautiful things you do *envious*!

[aegir]

i think its going in a better direction than the official concept. though i think its maybe a bit too much.. the gloves are amazing, and its more the Warhammer TT style, though i think he should have a bigger hat, and i dont really like the kilt he's wearing, maybe add some purple to it to create some more consistance.
i wish i had photoshop so i could point it out... :(

[Vyndara]

That's how the Sorcerer's should be! Male and female BOTH flashing skin! Equality! <333!!! Awesome job! :mrgreen:

I, like Kharlene, love that redo. Sensuality oozes from him. Devs, please take note of this thread and implement Athenys's ideas!

[Arcadox]

Wonderful!

I'd love to see some skin with DE males, and sorcerer/disciple are the 2 that it makes sense to do so. Not ugly skin showing either *cough*zealot*cough*, let's see some good stuff. Both Green skins and Chaos show some skin on their males, let's get the same for DEs!

[The Penguin Hunter]

Wonderful!

I'd love to see some skin with DE males, and sorcerer/disciple are the 2 that it makes sense to do so. Not ugly skin showing either *cough*zealot*cough*, let's see some good stuff. Both Green skins and Chaos show some skin on their males, let's get the same for DEs!


Well from a deciple is arguable if they should be showing skin, atleast for the males since Khaine only takes brides >.> lol

[Lucrece]

Well from a deciple is arguable if they should be showing skin, atleast for the males since Khaine only takes brides >.> lol

Hey! He could be bisexual. Nowhere in the lore does it state that his sexual orientation is strictly heterosexual. Nevertheless, I wouldn't want the disciples to take the spousal relationship with Khaine. If males were to begrroms of Khaine, why not make them simply male witch elves instead of disciples?

I dunno, I think witch elves have been upstaged a bit too much. Let's not rob them of their only unique title they have left.

[The Penguin Hunter]

Hey! He could be bisexual. Nowhere in the lore does it state that his sexual orientation is strictly heterosexual. Nevertheless, I wouldn't want the disciples to take the spousal relationship with Khaine. If males were to begrroms of Khaine, why not make them simply male witch elves instead of disciples?

I dunno, I think witch elves have been upstaged a bit too much. Let's not rob them of their only unique title they have left.


Atleast we can agree on something, oh and I appologies about earlier. :mrgreen:

However it is oddly funny how Athens conviently made a picture to what I was going to suggest >.> talk about timeing

[Lucrece]

Atleast we can agree on something, oh and I appologies about earlier. :mrgreen:

However it is oddly funny how Athens conviently made a picture to what I was going to suggest >.> talk about timeing

No apologies needed; we were being....um, Dark Elvish ^~!


That kind of concept was actually what I think most of us had in mind when advocating for showing more male skin.

The color scheme could use some more consistency, and the headgear could be more elaborate, but Athenys's drawing should be force-fed to those uncreative designers over at Mythic ;D.

[The Penguin Hunter]

No apologies needed; we were being....um, Dark Elvish ^~!


That kind of concept was actually what I think most of us had in mind when advocating for showing more male skin.

The color scheme could use some more consistency, and the headgear could be more elaborate, but Athenys's drawing should be force-fed to those uncreative designers over at Mythic ;D.


Agreed, however I wouldn't call them uncreative, they definitly did a good job on the Dwarfs(for the most part, damned Beer powered mount), Empire, High Elves, Chaos (to a degree) and Greenskins, but then again you can never really fail with the greenskins >.>

[Lucrece]

Agreed, however I wouldn't call them uncreative, they definitly did a good job on the Dwarfs(for the most part, damned Beer powered mount), Empire, High Elves, Chaos (to a degree) and Greenskins, but then again you can never really fail with the greenskins >.>

Oh, disregard that part. It is simply my lovely biased self speaking without thinking ;p.

[Are'el]

That does look really good! I agree that Mythic should do something similar with their Sorcerer. Make the two counterparts look more equal, like every other Class in the game. This is precisely what I wanted to get at in the other thread, that the Sorcerer needs to look more like the Sorceress, and not the other way around.

PS, your thread in the Art and Sound section will probably be locked for consolidation.

[Athenys]

Now with MUSIC (http://demaleso.ytmnd.com/) :p...

I have no life ;_;...

[Ojike]

I made a collage in photoshop using 'wen-m's' art:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDO.jpg

Let me know what you think...

UPDATE: I worked on the face a bit more.

I DON'T like it i'm afraid. He looks like a feminine guy that wants to dance all night or something :P Long covering Robes for Males ftw! :P

[Lucrece]

I DON'T like it i'm afraid. He looks like a feminine guy that wants to dance all night or something :P Long covering Robes for Males ftw! :P

Masculinity Crisis FTL!~ :roll:

[Athenys]

Oh great another 'he's gaaay' person. I've run into some 'effete'/metro guys that are nevertheless so attractive that men and women alike stare at them. The 'manly' men then go out of their way to ridicule them because they are homophobic and deeply insecure :p...

Long covering Robes for Males ftw! :P

Hey, I'm straight. I admire beauty in both genders, yet I am not 'turned on' by the female form...therefore I demand burqas for ALL female DE! Does this make any sense to you :confused:. Didn't think so :rolleyes:...

[Frein]

Oh great another 'he's gaaay' person. I run into some 'effete'/metro guys that are nevertheless so attractive that men and women alike stare at them. The 'manly' men then go out of their way to ridicule them because they are homophobic and deeply insecure :p...
QFT

I've seen similar behaviour manifest in somewhat different contexts as well.

[Ojike]

Oh great another 'he's gaaay' person. I run into some 'effete'/metro guys that are nevertheless so attractive that men and women alike stare at them. The 'manly' men then go out of their way to ridicule them because they are homophobic and deeply insecure :p...

No not that he is , just that he looks more feminine then i like. :P i personally like clothes that are more simple. :) For male and females. And no i think people rock. I love that they are true to themselves and others.

[Lucrece]

Oh great another 'he's gaaay' person. I run into some 'effete'/metro guys that are nevertheless so attractive that men and women alike stare at them. The 'manly' men then go out of their way to ridicule them because they are homophobic and deeply insecure :p...



Hey, I'm straight :p. I admire beauty in both genders, yet I am not 'turned on' by the female form...therefore I demand burqas for ALL female DE! Does this make any sense to you :confused:

*cough* insert bishounen X (ala Sephiroth) *cough*

[Are'el]

Ok, let's be fair now. Not everyone is going to like it, and they've the right not to. But you don't have to jump on them, and automatically assume that they're "homophobic" or anything like that. There are styles of clothing that I don't like, either, for whatever asthetic reasons.

[Lucrece]

Ok, let's be fair now. Not everyone is going to like it, and they've the right not to. But you don't have to jump on them, and automatically assume that they're "homophobic" or anything like that. There are styles of clothing that I don't like, either, for whatever asthetic reasons.

I agree that the homophobic reference is a stretch; sexist would be a more appropriate conclusion seeing as how his distaste of the drawing stems from the image's femininity. However, I don't find the homophobic accusations to be so shocking, considering the obvious trend among male gamers to be ridiculously worried about their masculinity and resorting to homophobia in order to establish their masculinity.

EDIT: It seems, however, that the aforementioned biases are not what's going on. The poster clarified that he simply prefers practical dressing.

[Ruk]

Great job, I think it looks great, much better than the real concept art at least.

Also, I think the masculinity issue could easily be fixed with something as simple as shorter hair. This would be left up to the player to decide at the character creation screen.

[Athenys]

Ok, let's be fair now. Not everyone is going to like it, and they've the right not to. But you don't have to jump on them, and automatically assume that they're "homophobic" or anything like that. There are styles of clothing that I don't like, either, for whatever asthetic reasons.

What I am curious about is why some guys think that a male who wears robes that show part of his torso looks 'feminine'. He is wearing black, he's got silver skulls. There is nothing remotely fruity about him! It's ok of you don't like the redesign for purely aesthetic reasons, but claiming that you don't like it because he looks '' *hurhur* is puerile. Really :neutral:.

[Dyst]

I might not been the person in question, but if I were to criticize the picture it would be because in my head it doesn't exactly fit how I see a Sorcerer. It looks too "ragged" for me. But not because of the open chest, are you kidding?

Even so, I can claim that a costume for a male person/career/whatever is too feminine for my liking (although this is not one of those cases). This does not automatically mean that I am some woman hating homophobe! It simply means that it could hinder me rolling that career because I don't identify with it.

[Lucrece]

Great job, I think it looks great, much better than the real concept art at least.

Also, I think the masculinity issue could easily be fixed with something as simple as shorter hair. This would be left up to the player to decide at the character creation screen.

Hmmm, what I think most people find feminine is perhaps the face, the ear hoops, and the headgear.

Of those factors, only two are relevant. Elves are pretty boys, naturally. Beauty is often associated with femininity.

The other two, however, could easily be tailored by each player to fit his/her tastes.

[aegir]

What I am curious about is why some people think that a male who wears robes that show part of his torso looks 'feminine'. He is wearing black, he's got silver skulls. There is nothing remotely fruity about him! It's ok of you don't like the redesign for purely aesthetic reasons, but claiming that you don't like it because he looks '' *hurhur* is puerile. Really :neutral:.
do people actually wear dresses with a 'naked' torso? ive never seen one at least lol.. It's not like he's wearing hotpants or something c'mon; cuz u do see certain men walking around in those.. anyways, i think the design looks a bit more elfish, just need to rework the color scheme and get rid of the ragged bits

[Lucrece]

do people actually wear dresses with a 'naked' torso? ive never seen one at least lol.. It's not like he's wearing hotpants or something c'mon; cuz u do see certain men walking around in those.. anyways, i think the design looks a bit more elfish, just need to rework the color scheme and get rid of the ragged bits

I agree. You are stereotyping men as gender variant individuals, Athenys, very naughty! ;p

[Athenys]

Warhammer elves are slender faced and delicately featured, males and female alike. If you make the features coarser he will look like a half-elf. I based the earrings and headgear on Uthlan Tyr's, who also happens to be a particularly mean mofo in 'Darkblade' ;).

I agree. You are stereotyping men as gender variant individuals, Athenys, very naughty! ;p

I am not :p! All I am saying is that if they did go by the common stereotype it wouldn't apply either.

[Lucrece]

I am not :p! All I am saying is that if they did go by the common stereotype it wouldn't apply either.

Aha, fair enough; it didn't come off so clearly.

I still think you're naughty <3~ :twisted:

[ChosenOne]

Strangely enough, I kind of like it. Also I dont think its anymore feminine then the archmage flowing robes look for male archmages. Actually it seems a bit more masculine. The dark elf in this well done picture is showing off aspects of his masculinity. In a society such as what I would envision the dark elf's as being, such would be rather common. A very proud, egotistical and self aggrandising culture. Thats exactly what I see in this picture. A show off.

Well done.

[OnyxBMW]

I'll just chime in on the redesign real fast...not really reading the majority of the replies.

Does it look nice? Yes. In a way, it does.

Is it fitting? It seems to be. I cannot honestly say with any certainty if it fits the lore, since I am not a warhammer buff. It doesn't seem over the top though, which may go against overall designs.

A few things that seem out of place: The trim of the set seems to be purple, but then you have these yellow gloves and shoulders. They aren't necessarily bad by any stretch, but the gloves just look out of place. Well designed, but out of place. What makes them out of place, though, is that they are a solid color instead of an accent (they being the gold), which causes it to stick out relative to the rest of the robe itself. In addition to coloring, the distinct appearance of spikes, followed by the rest of the entire armor set seems to scream like it doesn't fit.

In addition, you seem to have 2 trim colors. I am no artist myself, but from what little artistry I do know, that seems a tad out of place relative to most artistic conventions. Specifically, you have the purple accenting the black in addition to the gold. Is this a bad thing? Frankly, it's still art, so it is open to interpretation. Plus, I tend to find the purple colors to be more chaos-y than dark elfish, but I, again, am no buff of the lore, and there may be a color scheme like this.

I don't much care for the tattoos, or the whole bare-chest motif (well, bare down the middle). But, then again, my personality prefers more elegant and refined tastes than whatever taste that is.

And, last but not least, where's the over-done headdress? Isn't that, like, a classic Elf thing in Warhammer lore?

Overall, the art is well done. The parts that do seem off base could just be from differing artistic opinions and personal preferences. I prefer the more clothed look for the males, but there is nothing I find just blatantly wrong about this artwork. I would love to see it, or something like it, in the game, if the lore does in fact support the look. That said, I still want it to be an option, not a forced necessity, if it is made available.

I rank this as an...oh...8/10...for overall effort and look. Reasons why I docked it: distaste in that particular style, the gloves, multi-color trim that seems (to me) to defy normal artistic conventions.

[The Penguin Hunter]

Well Luc, i've noticed you really seem to toss out the "sexist" title often :P

But yeah Aegri, be a little more opened minded, and playing on sterotypes only shows ones own ignorance

And yes I like to use "ignorance", it's somewhat if a nicer way of saying something else :mrgreen:

[Lucrece]

Well Luc, i've noticed you really seem to toss out the "sexist" title often :P

But yeah Aegri, be a little more opened minded, and playing on sterotypes only shows ones own ignorance

And yes I like to use "ignorance", it's somewhat if a nicer way of saying something else :mrgreen:

;O, where else did I explicitly toss out the "sexist" title?

[Athenys]

@ OnyxBMW - Perhaps this variant is a little more to your liking:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDOVAR.jpg

Old school headgear that ;).

[ChosenOne]

Gloves are better, but perhaps lose the gold trim?

[The Penguin Hunter]

Gloves are better, but perhaps lose the gold trim?


quiet I throught the gold gloves were cool, they screamed evil, in anycase it needs a really big hat... like dark elf big

[Yavvy]

I like it, not nearly as boring as Mythic's one and much more similar to the female.

[Avatar Of War]

And here I was just wondering what happened to Lucrece have not seen him post in a while.

Then I find out he just has not ventured out of the DE forums in a while...

And personally I think the art is awesome, nothing even remotely 'feminine' about it.

Its amazing all the hang ups males have(especially us American males), even a hint of sexuality on a male character and its too feminine or .. Yet the maurauders barely wear anything at all, but since they have hairy chest and beards, they are manly.

I wish all those guys who have a problem with this art would go to Scotland and see what a real man can do...

When you can toss a caber a few hundred yards with nothing on but a kilt and a smile, then you can talk about feminine.

Note: A caber is a log (actually more like a tree without branches and a top) and as part of the Scottish games you have to throw said tree without any help several hundred yards, in a kilt. the shirt is optional.

There was a vitaman water commercial about it earlier this year or late last year i think.

[Lucrece]

And here I was just wondering what happened to Lucrece have not seen her/him post in a while.

Then I find out she just has not ventured out of the DE forums in a while...

And personally I think the art is awesome, nothing even remotely 'feminine' about it.

Its amazing all the hang ups males have(especially us American males), even a hint of sexuality on a male character and its too feminine or .. Yet the maurauders barely wear anything at all, but since they have hairy chest and beards, they are manly.

I wish all those guys who have a problem with this art would go to Scotland and see what a real man can do...

When you can toss a caber a few hundred yards with nothing on but a kilt and a smile, then you can talk about feminine.

Note: A caber is a log (actually more like a tree without branches and a top) and as part of the Scottish games you have to throw said tree without any help several hundred yards, in a kilt. the shirt is optional.

There was a vitaman water commercial about it earlier this year or late last year i think.


He has indeed not ventured out of the DE forums in a while. I've been a recluse of the DE forums for quite a bit, I must admit. Perhaps I should stop neglecting the Greenskin/HE forums and go pay a visit to the Shaman/White Lion sub-forums ;). I'm sure many would like that. The less time they have to hear me rant about how the male and female sorcerers should dress more similarly, I believe.

[Rerisen]

Hey that's pretty good. Nice job!

[Ganymed]

having some closer looks at it I can now specify why i think he looks feminine:

its his hair which is too long, and still got a problem with his face, dunno why.

and most of all: his hips are too broad, thats clearly hips of a woman :P

PS: I said he looks too feminine for my taste, why some people think feminine = is beyond me. I already stated this is some great work athenys, really well done. The points I raised there also just count for the basic model u used, the costume itself is good, nothing wrong with it. just put it on a male body :P

[Lucrece]

having some closer looks at it I can now specify why i think he looks feminine:

its his hair which is too long, and still got a problem with his face, dunno why.

and most of all: his hips are too broad, thats clearly hips of a woman :P

PS: I said he looks too feminine for my taste, why some people think feminine = is beyond me. I already stated this is some great work athenys, really well done. The points I raised there also just count for the basic model u used, the costume itself is good, nothing wrong with it. just put it on a male body :P

Remember, however, that male elves' physique is still fairly feminine in features compared to male humans. Elves in Warhammer are not just perfect humans with pointy ears and long hair.

[Nerak]

Remember, however, that male elves' physique is still fairly feminine in features compared to male humans. Elves in Warhammer are not just perfect humans with pointy ears and long hair.

I don't recall any fantasy stories where Elves were anything but feminine and lithe compared to humans. ;p

[OnyxBMW]

@ OnyxBMW - Perhaps this variant is a little more to your liking:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDOVAR.jpg

Old school headgear that ;).

Okay, the headress still looks weird, but the gloves look awesome now. Still kinda a 2 trim thing, but it's nowhere near as bad as I perceived it before.

Overall a huge net improvement as far as I am concerned, nice work. But, shouldn't the helm be a lot taller and more pointy? And, if you did make it taller and more pointy, it'd kill the overall look of the costume, I think...hrm...

EDIT:

Going to add that the gold now isn't so much a trim as it is an accent, so it actually fits into the overall theme now (with purple being the trim and the silver gloves just being their own thing)

[Specter]

looks good, better than the first draw,
but i think the gloves might need a little gold trim, to make them fit better with the rest of the costume, and i dont rly like the triangly things on the lower part of the robe. idve made that plain, without decoration.
the headdress looks very good as well. A bit too big for my tasts, but thats dark elfy, apparently...
very good job though.

[Athenys]

and most of all: his hips are too broad, thats clearly hips of a woman :P

He has three layers of heavy clothing around his waist and about 4 kilos of belt and metal decorations on top of that! Under it all he is as slim-hipped as elves come ;).

[Alesthes]

It's a nice picture and it shows you have skill in drawing.

That said the original WAR artwork is still much better. Much better drawing quality (obviously), much better concept. Of course both designs aren't particularly innovative in their concept (nobody is really getting shocked if he sees around "vampiresque" or "metro-sexual-like" stuff nowadays, honestly...). Mythic has on its side the professional quality (as a matter of fact) and a more inspiring, "noble" and elaborated idea (in my opinion).

Anyway, it's nice to see different ideas and inspiration compared. No real need to bash anyone on this kind of disagreement...

[Dyst]

I agree I think the hips are mysteriously broad. Or the robe just looks very wide, I don't know. Maybe something easily fixable, but I still think I'd like the original concept art better.

[Thizz]

gotta admit... i dont like anything on your concept except the gloves, and even those look way out of place with the rest of his outfit.

good effort, but i find the mythic concept would be perfect with some different coloring.

[Lucrece]

Some people here need to be realistic. Don't bother arguing quality differences in the design. There is a huge gap in terms of resources available to Athenys and Mythic designers for developing concept art.

[OnyxBMW]

Some people here need to be realistic. Don't bother arguing quality differences in the design. There is a huge gap in terms of resources available to Athenys and Mythic designers for developing concept art.

Don't forget motivation. The other guys are PAYED to make the concept, and it probably takes them ALL DAY to make only a couple of the pictures AFTER they plan out everything.

The one Athenys made is more of a rough draft paperdoll to get an idea of what the concept art would be like after they decided to go full bore on it.

[Lucrece]

Don't forget motivation. The other guys are PAYED to make the concept, and it probably takes them ALL DAY to make only a couple of the pictures AFTER they plan out everything.

The one Athenys made is more of a rough draft paperdoll to get an idea of what the concept art would be like after they decided to go full bore on it.

Correct, thanks for the additions.

[Athenys]

Much better drawing quality (obviously)

It's rendered in a more painterly fashion but I would disagree about all of it being top notch. Observe what happens when the above is rendered in a similar style:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DECOM.jpg

See what I mean? The costuming is great in most cases (not the dull low tier male Sorc obviously) but some of Mythic's base model art for the elves in particular leaves a lot to be desired. You know you are off when your Sorceress looks like Janice Dickinson in goth makeup. They could have drawn much better 'mannequins' for one and I can say that with certainty because I studied figure drawing for years. As an aside the costume itself is a collage, the original art that it's pieced together from is by an individual called 'Wen-M' who works in a style quite different from my own.

[Alesthes]

I can easily agree with those who underlined how the professional quality of Mythic's work can't be the measure to compare it with Athenys' proposal. And in fact it wasn't clearly the main point of my post.
But for the same reason I wouldn't try to contend with them on that level.
Which doesn't mean that your work is bad (it is indeed nice) or theirs is perfect (it isn't), of course. But this was never the issue at stake, as far as I understand.

[Athenys]

But for the same reason I wouldn't try to contend with them on that level.

Why not? Chances are they too went to art school ;). They have more time and indeed the monetary incentive to make it their life's work. The rough render above was done in 30 minutes instead of the 6+ hours necessary to make something look production art caliber. If there is something that is irksome it is people who make sweeping generalizations and assumptions about the process without being experienced artists themselves.

[The Penguin Hunter]

I always like how Athenys always makes the Warhammer elves actualy look like warhammer elves compared to Mythics concept art elves.

[Athenys]

I always like how Athenys always makes the Warhammer elves actualy look like Warhammer elves compared to Mythic's concept art elves.

Thanks :). I am a stickler for the iconic Warhammer elf look ala Paul Dainton. What's the point of making a game based on such a (relatively) original setting if your elves look like they were ported from Vanguard, EQ2, Spellforce etc. with the only difference being the outfits they can wear? Make 'em tall, skinny, narrow-faced and decidedly not 'human' :cool:. "But the elf chicks in this game are creepy." Please go play WoW then, because if 'hawt babez' on mailboxes is what you are after then Warhammer is not for you.

[spirit]

That's a really good piece. If anything I'd reduce the broadness of chest and the "puffed up"-ness (technical terms here) of his chest, I think I'd prerer if it looked a bit thinner and more effeminate. I know people have said they thought it looked too and girly, but frankly I disagree, it's an elf, their males are meant to be effeminate.

[thelastlogan]

I made a collage in photoshop using 'wen-m's' art:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDO.jpg

Let me know what you think...

UPDATE: I worked on the face a bit more.

wow thats really great, i love it. i wouldn't mind cutting that guys head off :cool:
seriously though i could see that being ingame.

can yeah make me a white lion :P

[Alesthes]

Why not? Chances are they too went to art school ;). They have more time and indeed the monetary incentive to make it their life's work. The rough render above was done in 30 minutes instead of the 6+ hours necessary to make something look production art caliber. If there is something that is irksome it is people who make sweeping generalizations and assumptions about the process without being experienced artists themselves.

I think something that is irksome it is people who don't accept anything but praise for their proposals. I stated that you shouldn't compare the value of your concept with Mythic's one in terms of quality for the simple reason that, as it is, it's miles away. I never implied that your work is bad, I actually clearly stated that your work is nice and shows skill. It's possible that with 5 hours and half more you can produce something at the same level, but until that moment it's just wiser to avoid that kind of comparison. As it is, Mythic's work is just way better in terms of drawing quality.
Obviously, the evaluation of the different "flavour" and "inspiration" of the two concepts is still way open.
Anyway, since it seems that different opinions on your work aren't welcome I now quietly leave room for the comments of those who liked it only. Goodbye! :)

[Athenys]

I think something that is irksome it is people who don't accept anything but praise for their proposals.

I am quite open to relevant critiques. If said outfit was refined and placed on a model ingame which would you prefer? Why? Some loved the 'Hand of Khaine' style gauntlets others hated them. I had people say that the color scheme was off or the headgear wasn't big enough etc. yet I had no problem with that.

I never implied that your work is bad, I actually clearly stated that your work is nice and shows skill. It's possible that with 5 hours and half more you can produce something at the same level...

Did I say this was a competition? I wanted to show people an alternative look, that is all. It is a simple cut-paste paperdoll using Wen-M's art. I've stated that thrice already, I myself work in a different style. The point is the costume itself.

but until that moment it's just wiser to avoid that kind of comparison.

Why? I've already shown how some of their stuff can be improved upon in other threads. I find this a bit problematic because I have followed Warhammer since it's beginning (yes I am old). Go ahead and call me a fluff-nazi :p.

As it is, Mythic's work is just way better in terms of drawing quality.

Rendering is one thing, costume design is another. According to your criteria the art of Justin Sweet and Yoji Shinkawa would be subpar compared to Mythic's because their stuff looks extremely 'messy'. Yet those two have produced some of the best concept art I have ever seen and in games that certainly shows. A fine art piece's quality tends to be measured by how polished it looks. Concept art can be a bit different, you can have a great execution but the concept itself can be somewhat lacking...Mythic's lower tier male Sorc for example ;).

Anyway, since it seems that different opinions on your work aren't welcome.

"Their drawing looks nicer because it is rendered more realistically" while certainly true is a moot point for the purpose of this thread.

[Alesthes]

I never posted in the Prude Sorceress thread, so please avoid to suggest I said there something I actually never said (and I don't even think).

I never stated that Mythic's work was better than yours because of the better rendering. That's what you think, not me. If nothing else because I think it is clearly superior on many other sides, like clothing details, body posture, consistency of the different pieces, etc.

Please, if you want to be polemic against someone who doesn't share your views, try at least not to confuse him with other people or to quote things he clearly never stated. I understand it's tempting, but it's not very honest.

Thank you.

[Athenys]

If nothing else because I think it is clearly superior on many other sides, like clothing details, body posture, consistency of the different pieces, etc.

We are going back to rendering again with less emphasis on the actual look. It is superior in execution but is the alternative interesting? No. The low tiers are well drawn (gods, NOT the face though) but still rather dull, even compared to the female. If you think the male's FACE is superior you need to check the fluff...not to mention your eyesight. A Dark Elf mug that's copy-pasted from 'The Matrix' is not ok, it's awful :(. If anything they should be ashamed of the disparity between some of those elf faces and the rest of the art. These are professionals who are getting paid for this, I shouldn't even have to point stuff like this out to them. Really.

Please, if you want to be polemic against someone who doesn't share your views, try at least not to confuse him with other people or to quote things he clearly never stated. I understand it's tempting, but it's not very honest.


I apologize for the confusion. We need more avatars and that other guys' name is a lot like yours :p. I can assure you that it was not intentional however so let's not start questioning my honesty shall we? Keep things civil. Thanks.

[Iwaxmybelly]

This is a fantastic piece of artwork. Love the tattoos (would be awesome to see those as a customizations trait for both male and female). Although I think the skirt is too broad. I would (personal opinion here, don't claim to know anything about fashion ;) ) maybe slim it down a bit, especially down at the feet, and maybe move it up to the lowest rib while still keeping the belt at the original location.

The color scheme is not to my liking either but that hasn't really got anything to do with the design. I prefer the Black, red, gold theme. And lastly the gloves. A bit overdone really if you ask me, they seem to be made of metal and kinda takes away from the rest of the outfit, I'd rather see some linen gloves with leather straps or something.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to make and show us this :D

[Lemures]

I made a collage in photoshop using 'wen-m's' art:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDO.jpg

Let me know what you think...

UPDATE: I worked on the face a bit more.

Good job on it, though I do agree with it looking to feminine. I'd expect them to look much more cruel. Don't get me wrong I don't think the current art looks good for them either. Maybe a cross between yours and Mythics... with a little less feminine quality and more of a harsh look.

As for the bare skin... I could see the Sorcerer being less covered up then other mages, but the Sorceress I think still needs to show more skin then him. Much more =P Even at high tiers.

[ravn0s]

I really like it, but I have to agree with the people that are saying he looks too feminine.

Imo the female Druchii are more scantily clad than the males because they would use their sexiness against the enemy. They would slit the throats of their enemies while they are busy drooling over the sight of their bodies.

[YGR]

The first thing about this concept I noticed was the disharmony. The gauntlets are impressive and inspiring, yet they do not match well the rest of the attire. To me, there are also too many colours, I prefer a darker, simpler scheme. The rough juxtaposition of noble and feral in the outfit further increases this feeling. The vest and shoulderpads look out of place adorning a naked torso and bared arms, almost like wearing a skirt and high heels with a kevlar vest.

In addition to this, I do not like the tattoos, simply bacause they are far too banale for a Druchii sorcerer. A simple drawing of a dragon seems irrelevant and misplaced on the chest of one who controls the secrets of Drukh-Eltharin, not to mention those measly little blots of blue. They convey no meaning, no whispers of arcane mysteries. The symbol encasing his umbilicus is more alike to what I could see a sorcerer adorning his body with. Also, the diadem looks dreadful, but that is merely personal taste.

It all comes together as two styles blended clumsily together, without an inspiring result. I would prefer it if the chest and shoulders were bared, and either fully or partially covered in tattoos composed of Drukh-Eltharin runes, so as to fit better with the concept of sorcerers. I like the original concept art, I have much relish for simple designs, as long as they are done well. And the original art gives an impression of nobility and authority, as well as dark knowledge and power. I, too, would love to see a more sexually appealing choice for the sorcerers, but not like this.

[Accipiter]

I like it. It has a more decadent Dark-elfy feel to it than the original Mythic artwork. Mythic's stuff for the male sorcerer is too bland.

[Estebar]

I made a collage in photoshop using 'wen-m's' art:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDO.jpg

Let me know what you think...

UPDATE: I worked on the face a bit more. It's a little too... "yaoi" for my tastes. ;)

Aside from those married to Witch Kings and Murder Gods, I can't think of many Dark Elves who would willingly walk around in such a vulnerable state with all those pointy things in Dark Elf society out there to wipe you out.

The official garb of Sorcerers is supposed to be scholarly - sort of priestly with a touch of the dark and clerical about it. I imagine Sorcerers are permitted to wear whatever skimpy garbs they wish if they go to the Hag Sorceress's parties, but otherwise I can see why they decided to go with the high-helmed and high-collared imagery. They're supposed to closet their passions under a scholarly approach to the Dark Arts. Makes me think of cold, cruel magistrates and court viziers.

Guess you fan-girls will have to find your Bishōnen elsewhere. ;)

[VeriusCarth]

It's a little too... "yaoi" for my tastes. ;)

Aside from those married to Witch Kings and Murder Gods, I can't think of many Dark Elves who would willingly walk around in such a vulnerable state with all those pointy things in Dark Elf society out there to wipe you out.

The official garb of Sorcerers is supposed to be scholarly - sort of priestly with a touch of the dark and clerical about it. I imagine Sorcerers are permitted to wear whatever skimpy garbs they wish if they go to the Hag Sorceress's parties, but otherwise I can see why they decided to go with the high-helmed and high-collared imagery. They're supposed to closet their passions under a scholarly approach to the Dark Arts. Makes me think of cold, cruel magistrates and court viziers.

Guess you fan-girls will have to find your Bishōnen elsewhere. ;)

I agree.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against anything, really. Unless they force it on me. That's not cool.

All that aside, I basically really completely agree with Estebar. When I saw Tier 1 Male Sorcerer, I was like, "ZOMG! Bad. !" it was simple, it was dark, and it was scholarly. I don't particularly like the obnoxious size of the later tiered helms, but on the whole, I quite like the Sorcerer as he is now.

But that's also because I prefer to play typically reserved characters to begin with, for any number of reasons, really.

[Lucrece]

I agree.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against anything, really. Unless they force it on me. That's not cool.

All that aside, I basically really completely agree with Estebar. When I saw Tier 1 Male Sorcerer, I was like, "ZOMG! Bad. !" it was simple, it was dark, and it was scholarly. I don't particularly like the obnoxious size of the later tiered helms, but on the whole, I quite like the Sorcerer as he is now.

But that's also because I prefer to play typically reserved characters to begin with, for any number of reasons, really.

Why do such a disclaimer unless you are aware that something in your comments may come off as latently homophobic? The whole " anything" and paranoia over being the poor straight guy who is forced to suffer such prepotent assaults by ravenous homosexuals is sketchy.

I also don't see the place of the disclaimer considering the topic of your post deals with anything but perceived issues.

[Lucrece]

It's a little too... "yaoi" for my tastes. ;)

Aside from those married to Witch Kings and Murder Gods, I can't think of many Dark Elves who would willingly walk around in such a vulnerable state with all those pointy things in Dark Elf society out there to wipe you out.

The official garb of Sorcerers is supposed to be scholarly - sort of priestly with a touch of the dark and clerical about it. I imagine Sorcerers are permitted to wear whatever skimpy garbs they wish if they go to the Hag Sorceress's parties, but otherwise I can see why they decided to go with the high-helmed and high-collared imagery. They're supposed to closet their passions under a scholarly approach to the Dark Arts. Makes me think of cold, cruel magistrates and court viziers.

Guess you fan-girls will have to find your Bishōnen elsewhere. ;)

Oh, you haven't seen "yaoi". This guy is ripped. The "yaoi" guys are ofetn alien-like, with inordinately elongated chests lacking nipples and extremely feminine feature because in reality "yaoi" is just another escapist representation that does not threaten females as much in its sex scenes. Basically, this is far from "yaoi".

I also resent the neglect in mentioning fanboys ;*(.

[Avatar Of War]

Oh, you haven't seen "yaoi". This guy is ripped. The "yaoi" guys are ofetn alien-like, with inordinately elongated chests lacking nipples and extremely feminine feature because in reality "yaoi" is just another escapist representation that does not threaten females as much in its sex scenes. Basically, this is far from "yaoi".

I also resent the neglect in mentioning fanboys ;*(.


One day I've really got to ask Lucrece what his proclivities are... on second thought I better not... I like the illusion that some intelligent, non homophobic men are hetorosexual... we seem to be a very small part of the gene pool... so I will try to keep my delusional reality alive for just a while longer...

And Lucrece: its fanbois :razz:


And come on guys this is the year two thousand and eight, if you have to preface your sentence with either with a disclaimer about 'not being <insert phobia/bigotry>" then your probably about to say something racist.

That would be like me saying "Don't get offended but white people really are like all the stereo types say".

If your going to say something that you believe just say it. Its better to be honest about how you feel (even if ignorant), than to try to be slick about it and not piss anyone off.

And just for the record: As mentioned many times I am of mixed heritage, and come from an African American upbringing, so we have a slightly different view on homosexuals than most.
We could really careless as long as we are not hit on when we say not to, heck some of my friends even encourage there homosexual relatives... more women for us!
Although not suprisingly a lot of African american males are threatened by lesbians... but thats a whole other rant.

And I mention this to remind people that different cultures have different views on sexuality and whats sexy dress and whats 'appropriate dress....

Go to Japan sometimes, they are positively bohemian compared to us (at least in print).

[Lucrece]

One day I've really got to ask Lucrece what his proclivities are... on second thought I better not... I like the illusion that some intelligent, non homophobic men are hetorosexual... we seem to be a very small part of the gene pool... so I will try to keep my delusional reality alive for just a while longer...

And Lucrece: its fanbois :razz:


And come on guys this is the year two thousand and eight, if you have to preface your sentence with either with a disclaimer about 'not being <insert phobia/bigotry>" then your probably about to say something racist.

That would be like me saying "Don't get offended but white people really are like all the stereo types say".

If your going to say something that you believe just say it. Its better to be honest about how you feel (even if ignorant), than to try to be slick about it and not piss anyone off.

And just for the record: As mentioned many times I am of mixed heritage, and come from an African American upbringing, so we have a slightly different view on homosexuals than most.
We could really careless as long as we are not hit on when we say not to, heck some of my friends even encourage there homosexual relatives... more women for us!
Although not suprisingly a lot of African american males are threatened by lesbians... but thats a whole other rant.

And I mention this to remind people that different cultures have different views on sexuality and whats sexy dress and whats 'appropriate dress....

Go to Japan sometimes, they are positively bohemian compared to us (at least in print).

Ahem, fanbois! ;)

This new correction tempts me to call fangirls "fangurlz" just for kicks ;D.

[Estebar]

Oh, you haven't seen "yaoi". This guy is ripped. The "yaoi" guys are ofetn alien-like, with inordinately elongated chests lacking nipples and extremely feminine feature because in reality "yaoi" is just another escapist representation that does not threaten females as much in its sex scenes. Basically, this is far from "yaoi".

I also resent the neglect in mentioning fanboys ;*(. Well, yaoi is primarily marketed at females. Says so on the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi) and everything. I guess "hentai" would be the more appropriate term. :roll:


And I mention this to remind people that different cultures have different views on sexuality and whats sexy dress and whats 'appropriate dress....

Go to Japan sometimes, they are positively bohemian compared to us (at least in print).
Lived in Japan for a year.'Tis a silly place. :-P

Alright, on the subject of "different cultures with different views on appropriate dress", I'm going to go ahead and say that in Dark Elf culture, ruled over by a King who used to be in charge of hunting down suspected pleasure cultists back on Ulthuan, and in a society in which suspected pleasure cultists are still hunted down and murdered horribly to this day, walking around with a lot of bare flesh showing as a male Elf with a navel tattoo pointing down at your crotch (which looks suspiciously similar to both the Slaaneshi symbol and the arrows of the eight-pointed symbol of Chaos) is going to be considered inappropriate because it's going to get you killed. ;)

As I said before, Witch Elves and Sorceresses get off easy. Not only are they legally married, which throws off some of the suspicion, but they're also legally married to two of the most important beings in Naggaroth. Unfortunately, Sorcerors have no such luxury to protect them, hence the scholarly garb.

[Lucrece]

Well, yaoi is primarily marketed at females. Says so on the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi) and everything. I guess "hentai" would be the more appropriate term. :roll:


I'm aware of that. How do you think I was familiar with the information I posted before? ;p

Hentai would also be out of the question, as it is outright pornographic in nature, and the characters are still not often ripped.

What you probably would get is "bara", although I still doubt that it would fit as bara tends to lean on the sexually explicit side (not always) and the characters look decidedly masculine. However, other than the face, Athenys's sorcerer would remain fairly masculine and meet the criteria for bara.

As for outfits, the scholarly garb would be just as much a hint at sorcery as anything else. The proper outfit would be traditionally male clothing, which excludes such ornate robes and headgear.

Belonging to the cult of pleasure is not what gets you killed. It's simply being a male caster that gets you killed, whether you believe in Khaine or Slaanesh.

[Jinsei]

As for outfits, the scholarly garb would be just as much a hint at sorcery as anything else. The proper outfit would be traditionally male clothing, which excludes such ornate robes and headgear.

Belonging to the cult of pleasure is not what gets you killed. It's simply being a male caster that gets you killed, whether you believe in Khaine or Slaanesh.
Seeing as how theres a downplaying of the whole prophecy in WAR, the male caster look wouldn't necesarily get you killed, but walking around like a Slaaneshi cultist would.

Like Estebar said, the female sorceresses dress how they want because they can and it also fits their seductive allure. It doesn't really fit the males because they're already under suspicion and anything that draws more negative attention to them other than being a male sorcerer would be bad for them. It's kinda like a suspect in a high profile murder case going and robbing a bank. Not really good publicity.

[Lucrece]

Seeing as how theres a downplaying of the whole prophecy in WAR, the male caster look wouldn't necesarily get you killed, but walking around like a Slaaneshi cultist would.

Like Estebar said, the female sorceresses dress how they want because they can and it also fits their seductive allure. It doesn't really fit the males because they're already under suspicion and anything that draws more negative attention to them other than being a male sorcerer would be bad for them. It's kinda like a suspect in a high profile murder case going and robbing a bank. Not really good publicity.

The interview posted in the genral forums also hints that the rivalry between Slaneeshi and Khainite factions is being overlooked, so this particular point is also moot.

It appears that any internal quarrels within Druchii culture as illustrated by lore is being ignored in favor of having a united front against Ulthuan.

[Jinsei]

The interview posted in the genral forums also hints that the rivalry between Slaneeshi and Khainite factions is being overlooked, so this particular point is also moot.

It appears that any internal quarrels within Druchii culture as illustrated by lore is being ignored in favor of having a united front against Ulthuan.
I read it as political intrigue not being at the forefront, like with Ulthorin and Arkaneth's attempts AT gaining the favor of the Witch King. I didn't think they were referring to the religious clashes within the society but I can see how it also fits. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Edit: "and" and "at" aren't the same word :oops:

[Lucrece]

I read it as political intrigue not being at the forefront, like with Ulthorin and Arkaneth's attempts and gaining the favor of the Witch King. I didn't think they were referring to the religious clashes within the society but I can see how it also fits. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Everything so far is pretty much "wait and see". I hate it how the elf pairing was saved for last in temrs of beta testing and showcasing for conventions *sulks*.

[Evander]

Who's the Emo?

( I thought the female bikinis were irritating, but this hits the nail good )

[Lord Tareq]

The interview posted in the genral forums also hints that the rivalry between Slaneeshi and Khainite factions is being overlooked, so this particular point is also moot.

It seems they are quite accomplished in "overlooking" basically everything that makes the Druchii society interesting. Male sorcerers outlawed due to paranoid king? Overlooked. Religious conflict between the Temple of Khaine and the older outlawed Cult of Slaanesh? Overlooked. Religious festivals and Blood Sacrifices to Khaine? Overlooked. The Temple of Khaine disliking magic, and even being prohibited by Morathi from using magic? Overlooked.

At least we still invade Ulthuan :p

[Lucrece]

It seems they are quite accomplished in "overlooking" basically everything that makes the Druchii society interesting. Male sorcerers outlawed due to paranoid king? Overlooked. Religious conflict between the Temple of Khaine and the older outlawed Cult of Slaanesh? Overlooked. Religious festivals and Blood Sacrifices to Khaine? Overlooked. The Temple of Khaine disliking magic, and even being prohibited by Morathi from using magic? Overlooked.

At least we still invade Ulthuan :p

Haha, I cannot help but laugh at the regrettably truthful element in this statement.

It shouldn't come as a surprise, though. If you've bothered to look at past MMO records, you'd see that it is a common trait in developers to overlook defining aspects of certain groups.

[Kiyamvir]

It does sadden me, that while the sorceress concept art remains true to her sexuality, the male equivalent fails to sufficiently mirror that particular aspect of the sorcerer. Instead, he is buried beneath heavy robes, his skin hidden away, his sexuality indiscernible. Sure, men seem to get a great deal of enjoyment out of the scantily clad female figure, and a great deal less so from the male, but is that reason enough to deprive those who wish to see a less repressed male sorcerer? Your artwork did not entirely reflect my own vision of the sorcerer, but it would please me to see Mythic take steps towards a compromise between the current incarnation and your own.

[Chielz0r]

I made a collage in photoshop using 'wen-m's' art:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/DEMASORREDO.jpg

Let me know what you think...

UPDATE: I worked on the face a bit more.

he looks uhm.. kinda .

[Sinfjotle]

he looks uhm.. kinda .

Well, he's an elf.

[Lucrece]

he looks uhm.. kinda .

Why?

(ten characters)

[Chielz0r]

Why?

(ten characters)

the bare chest shirt.. it looks

[Lucrece]

the bare chest shirt.. it looks

Lovely stereotypes, how innovative of you. Here, darling, I'll list you why by going through stereotypes, I can list you why every man in WAR is .

Humans= Strong, bald, hypermasculine to boot. He's your gym bunny and abercrombie .

Elves= ... No explanation, just elves. Twinks.

Dawi= Bears.

Orcs= No gender, but rather hypermasculine in looks, love to wrestle and do contact activities with each other.

Dark Elves: See elves, add a S&M twist.

Chaos: Chosen are the standing concept of hypermasculine, the true gym bunnies. Zealots are showing off their goods with all that nudity. Marauders, a bunch of men pillaging cities and doing "male bonding" in their regiments, how homoerotic. Magus are your typical posh, intellectual dandies.

Add in a homophobic imagination and might as well scratch everyone off who you dislike as just some f-ing "queer".

How about some constructive criticism-- you know, something that takes effort-- next time?

[Athenys]

I need to reiterate that the first draft was cobbled together from art that was NOT drawn by me. This version:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/malsorcwip.jpg

IS entirely drawn by me though it's very much a work in progress. Does he look '' to you now?

[Temero]

I like your latest rendition better then the first rendition, but I would say he would need a more substantial head piece something more sinister, maybe heavier then a single metal cord. Something that would say I have more power and arrogance then any non dark elf or even a dark elf could even comprehend. But then again thats just my opinion.

[Seldaren]

The interview posted in the genral forums also hints that the rivalry between Slaneeshi and Khainite factions is being overlooked, so this particular point is also moot.

Which interview was that? I must have missed that one.

One thing you need to consider is the lack of the Storm of Chaos in WAR. The SoC greatly expanded on the Slannesh aspect of the Covens and Morathi.

So we will not necessarily see as much focus on Slannesh as we would otherwise.
But I still fully expect there to be quests involving purging Slannesh heretics and exposing traitors.

And anyways, not all the members of the Convents are worshippers of Slannesh. Only Morathi and her Coven are.
So making everything about the Sorcs sensual and seductive would be incorrect.

[Lucrece]

Which interview was that? I must have missed that one.

One thing you need to consider is the lack of the Storm of Chaos in WAR. The SoC greatly expanded on the Slannesh aspect of the Covens and Morathi.

So we will not necessarily see as much focus on Slannesh as we would otherwise.
But I still fully expect there to be quests involving purging Slannesh heretics and exposing traitors.

And anyways, not all the members of the Convents are worshippers of Slannesh. Only Morathi and her Coven are.
So making everything about the Sorcs sensual and seductive would be incorrect.

While not all sorcerers are followers of Slaanesh, their reputation is still tarnished as potential heretics because of those who do. For WE's, suspicion is enough. Furthermore, WE's dislike the convents not only because of potential Slaaneshi following, but because they also see the use of magic as an act of the weak.

[Estebar]

While not all sorcerers are followers of Slaanesh, their reputation is still tarnished as potential heretics because of those who do. For WE's, suspicion is enough. ...which is why all the Sorcerors are covered-up, thereby limiting suspicion from the many Witch Elves and Disciples they'll be working alongside in WAR.

[Lucrece]

...which is why all the Sorcerors are covered-up, thereby limiting suspicion from the many Witch Elves and Disciples they'll be working alongside in WAR.

The fact that they're wearing robes most of the time while performing any taks, paired with the opulent headgear, is indicator enough.

There is no hiding as a sorcerer. Everyone knows; it's just a matter of when the WE's decide they have the time available to hunt you down.

Also, the same would apply with sorceresses, as they are targets, too. However, as we can see, it doesn't apply. It is fairly simple to notice that Mythic is overlooking the existing lore in order to fit in sorcerers. The Slaaneshi/Khaine animosity is being ignored, if not shoved under the rug, for now.

[Estebar]

The fact that they're wearing robes most of the time while performing any taks, paired with the opulent headgear, is indicator enough. Not really. From a classical or Renaissance point of view, most academics would wear robes, and you don't have to be academic to be Slaaneshi. And I don't think opulence is so much a mark of the Slaaneshi from an Elven point of view. Most Elves make the extra effort to look aesthetically pleasing. They're an inherently vain and artistic race. The original Slaaneshi Cults of Beauty and Luxury from ancient Nagarythe were accepted in society so long as they were making pretty decor. It's when they started killing people and doing sickening Chaos ceremonies that they were hunted down. I'd hardly think a simple gold dragon-head design came anywhere near the kind of opulence created back then. If it was, that would place all high-class nobility, including the Black Guard (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_39.jpg), under suspicion for wearing elaborate headgear and pretty skirts.

There is no hiding as a sorcerer. Everyone knows; it's just a matter of when the WE's decide they have the time available to hunt you down. ...well, that's the thing. They're not going to be hunting down the Sorcerors in-game. And even if they were, why wouldn't they find the time? They're on a battlefield. Everyone's dying around them. But, this is hardly the point. The fact that the Sorcerors are covering up so as to show that they are academically inclined, not some indulgent hedonist, is the point I'm making for why they decided to keep them wrapped-up. Whether the Witch Elves suspect or not, why poke the sleeping tiger with a stick? The guys have gotta cover up. Simple as that.

Also, the same would apply with sorceresses, as they are targets, too. However, as we can see, it doesn't apply. I think I've posted twice now indicating that Dark Elves who happen to be married to either Khaine, patron god of Dark Elves, or Malekith the Witch King, can walk around dressed however they want. They're married women, and they're well-connected to powerful individuals and organisations in Dark Elf society. They're showing off their beautiful bodies for several reasons: It shows off that they are beautiful. Elves are vain. It shows off their devotion - either it's part of their religion (Witch Elves refuse to wear armour) or it shows that older Sorceresses can still rejuvenate themselves with daemonic pacts and Dark Magic. It gains their husbands greater respect, showing to the world that they are wed to a great number of beautiful female Elves. It shows off that they are fearless and confident in both their skills against attacks and in the organisations which protect them and give them status. A female Dark Elf connected to either the Temple or the Convents may flaunt as much of herself around as she chooses because she is protected by those organisations. The Sorceror has no such protection and thus, must give no sign that he is an indulgent Chaos-worshipper. Dressing as an academic is not the sign of being Slaaneshi. The decadent do not have the time, patience or dedication to be bookworms.

It is fairly simple to notice that Mythic is overlooking the existing lore in order to fit in sorcerers. The Slaaneshi/Khaine animosity is being ignored, if not shoved under the rug, for now. It is not, because none of the Dark Elf classes give any indication that they are Slaanesh-worshippers. Yes, they've overlooked the Prophecy of Caledor, but the fact that Dark Elves can actively go to the Empire, do the Talabecland Corruptor's Crown quest and slaughter Slaaneshi is enough evidence that the Dark Elf faction is Khaine-inclined. I can't see how there is any indication that the Slaanesh-Khaine animosity has been overlooked.

[Lucrece]

Not really. From a classical or Renaissance point of view, most academics would wear robes, and you don't have to be academic to be Slaaneshi. And I don't think opulence is so much a mark of the Slaaneshi from an Elven point of view. Most Elves make the extra effort to look aesthetically pleasing. They're an inherently vain and artistic race. The original Slaaneshi Cults of Beauty and Luxury from ancient Nagarythe were accepted in society so long as they were making pretty decor. It's when they started killing people and doing sickening Chaos ceremonies that they were hunted down. I'd hardly think a simple gold dragon-head design came anywhere near the kind of opulence created back then. If it was, that would place all high-class nobility, including the Black Guard (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/ConArt0807_39.jpg), under suspicion for wearing elaborate headgear and pretty skirts.

...well, that's the thing. They're not going to be hunting down the Sorcerors in-game. And even if they were, why wouldn't they find the time? They're on a battlefield. Everyone's dying around them. But, this is hardly the point. The fact that the Sorcerors are covering up so as to show that they are academically inclined, not some indulgent hedonist, is the point I'm making for why they decided to keep them wrapped-up. Whether the Witch Elves suspect or not, why poke the sleeping tiger with a stick? The guys have gotta cover up. Simple as that.

I think I've posted twice now indicating that Dark Elves who happen to be married to either Khaine, patron god of Dark Elves, or Malekith the Witch King, can walk around dressed however they want. They're married women, and they're well-connected to powerful individuals and organisations in Dark Elf society. They're showing off their beautiful bodies for several reasons:
It shows off that they are beautiful. Elves are vain.
It shows off their devotion - either it's part of their religion (Witch Elves refuse to wear armour) or it shows that older Sorceresses can still rejuvenate themselves with daemonic pacts and Dark Magic.
It gains their husbands greater respect, showing to the world that they are wed to a great number of beautiful female Elves.
It shows off that they are fearless and confident in both their skills against attacks and in the organisations which protect them and give them status.A female Dark Elf connected to either the Temple or the Convents may flaunt as much of herself around as she chooses because she is protected by those organisations. The Sorceror has no such protection and thus, must give no sign that he is an indulgent Chaos-worshipper. Dressing as an academic is not the sign of being Slaaneshi. The decadent do not have the time, patience or dedication to be bookworms.

It is not, because none of the Dark Elf classes give any indication that they are Slaanesh-worshippers. Yes, they've overlooked the Prophecy of Caledor, but the fact that Dark Elves can actively go to the Empire, do the Talabecland Corruptor's Crown quest and slaughter Slaaneshi is enough evidence that the Dark Elf faction is Khaine-inclined. I can't see how there is any indication that the Slaanesh-Khaine animosity has been overlooked.

I think you missed an important element in my post. WE's not only despise and chase down Slaaneshi worshippers. They chase down any scholarly elves that can be associated with magical prowess due to the potential inclination to wander around Chaos worship.

Sorceresses walk around naked in a very distinctive manner from that of WE's. There is still animosity and likelihood that a WE will assault a member of the Convent if given the opportunity.

Furthermore, the fact that they're letting sorcerers party along with WE's and Blackguards pretty much hints that they are overlooking such animosities.

I cannot go on further without taking a look at how the issues are taken on in-game.

[Estebar]

I think you missed an important element in my post. WE's not only despise and chase down Slaaneshi worshippers. They chase down any scholarly elves that can be associated with magical prowess due to the potential inclination to wander around Chaos worship. ...not so much. The Witch Elves actively slaughter Slaanesh-worshippers because the Cult of Pleasure is the only rivalling religious organisation which could possibly compete with the Temple of Khaine for power, and thus usurp their position in Dark Elf society.

Similarly, the Witch Elves have "sect emnity" with the Sorceresses because the Six Convents of Sorceresses rivals the Temple of Khaine for power and influence within Naggaroth. Elves are inherently magical. Elves commonly wear robes (or "dresses" as the Dwarves would call it). In a society saturated in Dark Magic, tormented by Dark Sprites, yet intent on mastering the forces of Chaos, Chaos-worshippers aren't that much of a problem. Malekith is fine with Chaos-worshippers. His own mother is one. It's the politics which are the problem. Witch Elves dislike organisations which rival the Temple. In WAR, I imagine they kill male Sorcerors about as much as they kill any other Dark Elf.

Sorceresses walk around naked in a very distinctive manner from that of WE's. You'll have to explain this point a little better. The way I see it, a naked she-Elf walks around the same way as the naked she-Elf next to her. :-P

There is still animosity and likelihood that a WE will assault a member of the Convent if given the opportunity. They still have to remain civil with one another because the members of the Convent happen to be married to the Witch King. It's not like the Sorceresses don't take precautions to prevent members of the Temple of Khaine from attacking them. This is why Assassins can't be part of units which include a Sorceress on the tabletop. Sorceresses are academic and thus, they certainly aren't stupid. ;)

Furthermore, the fact that they're letting sorcerers party along with WE's and Blackguards pretty much hints that they are overlooking such animosities. It shows that they are overlooking the Prophecy of Caledor, nothing more. The "ban" on Sorcerors had nothing to do with the "ban" on Slaanesh-worshippers. And you don't have to go on with this if you don't want to. We can wait and see if naked Sorceror options are available in character creation and if the Cult of Pleasure is even considered in-game.

[Lucrece]

...not so much. The Witch Elves actively slaughter Slaanesh-worshippers because the Cult of Pleasure is the only rivalling religious organisation which could possibly compete with the Temple of Khaine for power, and thus usurp their position in Dark Elf society.

Similarly, the Witch Elves have "sect emnity" with the Sorceresses because the Six Convents of Sorceresses rivals the Temple of Khaine for power and influence within Naggaroth. Elves are inherently magical. Elves commonly wear robes (or "dresses" as the Dwarves would call it). In a society saturated in Dark Magic, tormented by Dark Sprites, yet intent on mastering the forces of Chaos, Chaos-worshippers aren't that much of a problem. Malekith is fine with Chaos-worshippers. His own mother is one. It's the politics which are the problem. Witch Elves dislike organisations which rival the Temple. In WAR, I imagine they kill male Sorcerors about as much as they kill any other Dark Elf.

I think you undervalue their genuine fanaticism and hatred for blasphemy. WE's come off as the least politically restrained side to me in Dark Elven culture.

You'll have to explain this point a little better. The way I see it, a naked she-Elf walks around the same way as the naked she-Elf next to her. :-P

I mean the way in which they display their sex appeal. The dressing is very distinctive even while being similarly revealing.

They still have to remain civil with one another because the members of the Convent happen to be married to the Witch King. It's not like the Sorceresses don't take precautions to prevent members of the Temple of Khaine from attacking them. This is why Assassins can't be part of units which include a Sorceress on the tabletop. Sorceresses are academic and thus, they certainly aren't stupid. ;)

They have to remain civil IN THE OPEN. Nothing says they don't have assassins going around slitting throats.

It shows that they are overlooking the Prophecy of Caledor, nothing more. The "ban" on Sorcerors had nothing to do with the "ban" on Slaanesh-worshippers. And you don't have to go on with this if you don't want to. We can wait and see if naked Sorceror options are available in character creation and if the Cult of Pleasure is even considered in-game.

Male sorcerers are assumed to be self-indulgent and potential followers of Slaanesh. It is not necessarily the case most of the time, but it is certainly the stereotype.

I'd love to continue speculating as to what they're putting in and leaving out, but an interview only hints at so much. We'll have to wait for the beta testers.

[Estebar]

I think you undervalue their genuine fanaticism and hatred for blasphemy. WE's come off as the least politically restrained side to me in Dark Elven culture. Perhaps when they're on drugs and/or in the throes of some ceremony, yes. When not on drugs or enacting some ceremony, they're the same schemers as any other Dark Elf organisation. Elves care for themselves foremost, and gods thereafter.

I mean the way in which they display their sex appeal. The dressing is very distinctive even while being similarly revealing. They both traditionally go for the "big hair, bra, loincloth and boots" look from where I'm standing. Yes, there has to be some definition between them to match their function on the battlefield (Witch Elves have shorter loincloths and ornamentation suitable for fast close-combat melee, Sorceresses wear more elaborate, mystical ornamentation suitable for a megalomanical caster of powerful daemonic magic casting from afar) but the basic look is there. This is why they rival so much. They have a lot of similarities between them. Career-based appearance differences aside, their reasoning behind walking around naked remains the same, and my point was that the Sorceror cannot walk around naked because he cannot share these reasons with them.


They have to remain civil IN THE OPEN. Nothing says they don't have assassins going around slitting throats. Never said they didn't. Just as nothing says the Sorceresses don't have evil spirits going around sucking out souls. Well, thankfully, everything is "in the open" in WAR so we don't have to worry about that. ;)

Male sorcerers are assumed to be self-indulgent and potential followers of Slaanesh. It is not necessarily the case most of the time, but it is certainly the stereotype. I'm not sure where you get that idea from seeing as the only male Sorceror we have to base that stereotype on is Malekith. ;) That certainly wasn't the Sorceror stereotype back in 4th/5th Ed, when Sorcerors were still accepted in Naggaroth.

In my view, male Sorcerors are assumed to be withered scholars dedicated to mastering Dark Magic without needing to bend to the Ruinous Powers, but also without the help of the Convents to back them up. They have no time for indulgence - it gets them killed. Hence all the covering-up. They spend their time locked in tall dark towers pouring over ancient, dusty tomes of dark knowledge. That is the Sorceror stereotype. As said by Paul Barnett: Right now there are sorcerors in the Covenant who are male. Sorcerors who have been locked in dark towers, who have brought themselves out with their arcane knowledge, ready for us to do bloody battle against all those who oppose us. EDIT: Anyways, I'm off to bed. Night all.

[Lucrece]

Perhaps when they're on drugs and/or in the throes of some ceremony, yes. When not on drugs or enacting some ceremony, they're the same schemers as any other Dark Elf organisation. Elves care for themselves foremost, and gods thereafter.

They both traditionally go for the "big hair, bra, loincloth and boots" look from where I'm standing. Yes, there has to be some definition between them to match their function on the battlefield (Witch Elves have shorter loincloths and ornamentation suitable for fast close-combat melee, Sorceresses wear more elaborate, mystical ornamentation suitable for a megalomanical caster of powerful daemonic magic casting from afar) but the basic look is there. This is why they rival so much. They have a lot of similarities between them. Career-based appearance differences aside, their reasoning behind walking around naked remains the same, and my point was that the Sorceror cannot walk around naked because he cannot share these reasons with them.


Never said they didn't. Just as nothing says the Sorceresses don't have evil spirits going around sucking out souls. Well, thankfully, everything is "in the open" in WAR so we don't have to worry about that. ;)

I'm not sure where you get that idea from seeing as the only male Sorceror we have to base that stereotype on is Malekith. ;) That certainly wasn't the Sorceror stereotype back in 4th/5th Ed, when Sorcerors were still accepted in Naggaroth.

In my view, male Sorcerors are assumed to be withered scholars dedicated to mastering Dark Magic without needing to bend to the Ruinous Powers, but also without the help of the Convents to back them up. They have no time for indulgence - it gets them killed. Hence all the covering-up. They spend their time locked in tall dark towers pouring over ancient, dusty tomes of dark knowledge. That is the Sorceror stereotype. As said by Paul Barnett:

Hmm, I took Paul's quote more as meaning escape in a time of opportunity where they would not be recaptured and the defenses were not so heavily enforced.

As for the stereotype, I meant the stereotype WE's have of transgressors. Why argue that you're killing a male magic user only because they are some threat to Malekith as per some sorcery, when you can also add into the mix some nice concoction such as their partaking in the worship of socially scorned factions? One single transgression just means a whole set of transgressions they haven't caught you on and might as well condemn you for in advance.

EDIT: Night. I still look forward to some more info on a PM about that guild you're coming up with.

[Avatar Of War]

Hmm, I took Paul's quote more as meaning escape in a time of opportunity where they would not be recaptured and the defenses were not so heavily enforced.

As for the stereotype, I meant the stereotype WE's have of transgressors. Why argue that you're killing a male magic user only because they are some threat to Malekith as per some sorcery, when you can also add into the mix some nice concoction such as their partaking in the worship of socially scorned factions? One single transgression just means a whole set of transgressions they haven't caught you on and might as well condemn you for in advance.

EDIT: Night. I still look forward to some more info on a PM about that guild you're coming up with.

I see this is a fluff contest in some ways.

Its like some of you guys are trying to make the Sorcerer as canon as possible, and the opposing side is basically saying "Well they already threw the baby out with the dishwater,,, lets redecorate his room and turn it into a sex dungeon.."

There seems to be no middle ground between the two groups, yet there obviously is:

Let the Sorcerers dress in a manner befitting a sorcerer not to sexy but not to cloistered either. If male sorcerers have been reallowed then they have most of the same rights as the females do...

I'm pretty sure they wont be accused of being part of a pleasure cult unless the males are walking around only wearing genital rings and a smile :rolleyes: or leopard skin thongs.

[Sinfjotle]

The spiteful part of me would love to see objectification of the male body to that level outside of fashion magazines and porn.

The sane part of me realizes I'd have to see it myself.

[Nightz]

Im sorry but i like the original better.

[Kiyamvir]

The spiteful part of me would love to see objectification of the male body to that level outside of fashion magazines and porn. The sane part of me realizes I'd have to see it myself.

Though your comment hardly warrants a reply, I found myself so highly amused that I just had to commend you. Imagine that I have lifted myself off the floor, where I had fallen of course after laughing myself off the chair, and graciously bowed to you.

[sindbad]

I guess it needs some tweaking, but the general concept is much better.

They're supposed to look girly. They may even be with all the Slaanesh stuff going on, but who cares? As long as they show some skin like their female coleagues.

[damsel]

I think as the sorc exemplifiies the female form, that the male sorcs should exemplify a more masculine form, although a very lean one. That is to say, I think the one thing the current drawings are lacking isn't color, it is style. There robes need more Runes/spikes/emblems etc.

The varying color scheme that you use is just to "bright" for lack off a better term, but lets compare it to the really good female sorc drawings here war's current sorc model (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/DarkElves/Careers/Sorcereress.php)

If you see, the focus on blending the colors and emblems, and don't have such a distinct clash of color that the ops drawing has, also the aformentioned exceptional femininity and lower quality (compared to mythics)

In particular, one thing that would help the higher tiers would be more layers such as this pic (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/socc_11.jpg)

I guess it needs some tweaking, but the general concept is much better.

They're supposed to look girly. They may even be with all the Slaanesh stuff going on, but who cares? As long as they show some skin like their female coleagues.

There suppose to look girly why? They are bloody vicious dark elfs, not some pansy fairy elf in other lores

Overall: I find the ops picture going to far in the wrong direction than mythics, although, a mix of mythics and the OPs would probably be the best
The layers add depth and flow to the image, of course, since they are sorcs they need to show more skin, but I think skin around the arm and lower chest would look more masculine, instead of showing a line of skin up the entire chest

[Xurré]

There suppose to look girly why? They are bloody vicious dark elfs, not some pansy fairy elf in other lores
And... you're saying that looking a bit feminine means that they're not bloody vicious? Just curious. ;)


- Xurré

[sindbad]

There suppose to look girly why? They are bloody vicious dark elfs, not some pansy fairy elf in other lores
I guess the druchii tradition or whatever with female-only magic influenced my image of sorcerers.

But I see we do agree on the showing more skin part, it would only be fair.

[damsel]

And... you're saying that looking a bit feminine means that they're not bloody vicious? Just curious. ;)


- Xurré

No

Just saying that the feminine Male that the Op drew looks not only girly but week and introverted

On an Aside: the models for witch elf in game atm look to week and introverted for my tastes :-(

[Knolle]

I'd, personally, would like the Sorcerer to show at least as much skin as the sorceress, but that's prolly a lost point. Nothing wrong with walking around bare chested. As it stands now, they look nothing alike aside from the headdress, which is the thing that bugs me. Whatever happened to "iconic" look?
Overall I find the male Sorcerers to look rather bland even.

In any case, I find it odd that people are still going on about that prophecy. Aren't the players much rather employed by House Uthorin than by the Witch King, who'd be the only guy that actually has something against male Sorcerers. And the way the Uthorin description is written, I can see all the more reason to include male Sorcerers.

[Scerce]

My apologies, but this concept just won't do.

It is well established that no male may show more than his face, neck, and up to (but not surpassing) 38% of his forearms, if and only if they are sufficiently muscle-bound so as not to suggest poncery. This is why there are no male Witch Elves (as lore has already been ruled out at a determining factor in such matters).

Likewise, it has been established that a female's "natural grace and dexterity" is only hampered by heavy, restrictive clothing, thus decreasing their overall armor rating and/or avoidance as their overall armor/covering goes up. This is why there can be no female Chosen, since being fully covered from head to toe in thick, demonic battle-armor is to females what being completely naked and bound in chains is to males: restrictive, oppressive, demeaning, and cross-purposes with the ideals of freedom, self-confidence, and personal liberation.

Now, perhaps if you re-edited your work such that the sorcerer in question was wearing a long, dark coat of some rugged leather... perhaps then it would work. Be sure the coat is buttoned to the top though, and if at all possible make sure the collar is pulled up about the man's face (just the lower portion is fine, as the upper portion of his face should be concealed by unkempt, manly hair).

[Lucrece]

My apologies, but this concept just won't do.

It is well established that no male may show more than his face, neck, and up to (but not surpassing) 38% of his forearms, if and only if they are sufficiently muscle-bound so as not to suggest poncery. This is why there are no male Witch Elves (as lore has already been ruled out at a determining factor in such matters).

Likewise, it has been established that a female's "natural grace and dexterity" is only hampered by heavy, restrictive clothing, thus decreasing their overall armor rating and/or avoidance as their overall armor/covering goes up. This is why there can be no female Chosen, since being fully covered from head to toe in thick, demonic battle-armor is to females what being completely naked and bound in chains is to males: restrictive, oppressive, demeaning, and cross-purposes with the ideals of freedom, self-confidence, and personal liberation.

Now, perhaps if you re-edited your work such that the sorcerer in question was wearing a long, dark coat of some rugged leather... perhaps then it would work. Be sure the coat is buttoned to the top though, and if at all possible make sure the collar is pulled up about the man's face (just the lower portion is fine, as the upper portion of his face should be concealed by unkempt, manly hair).

There is no lore-established ban against what you perceive as "poncery". How about you state it as your simple dislike of certain types of males instead of trying to justify your own personal prejudices through made up lore?

[Knolle]

There is no lore-established ban against what you perceive as "poncery". How about you state it as your simple dislike of certain types of males instead of trying to justify your own personal prejudices through made up lore?

I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be either satirical or a straw man.

[Lucrece]

I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be either satirical or a straw man.

On hindsight, perhaps it was. I guess the focus on the poster's mention of male WE's and the distinct word "poncery" distracted me from the original intent.

Either way, if it was indeed satire, it was certainly done very ambivalently.

EDIT: You are probably correct, I was pretty dumbfounded by the use of such a strange percentage when I read it for the first time that the obvious went right over my head.

[Sinfjotle]

That was indeed satire and it was absolutely fantastic too. <3

[Rilien]

I, like many others, prefer the origional, and agree that it is too feminine for my tastes. Before I get called a homophobic, ignorant, or some other unfounded charge is leveled against me, I would point out that I am none of those things, and it is just personal taste.

I think he is too feminine, not because his chest and torso is shown, but because it is accentuated in such a flamboyant manner, or even accentuated at all. The hoop earings also add to his feminine look, as well as his femininely styled hair. He also has a lot more curvature to him than would be expected. His lower robe is fairly dress-like, and while not overly obvious it does give the drawing an extra hint of femininity. The head piece seems to be a tiara which is very much a feminine article of clothing. His waste is high up on his torso which is also a womanly characteristic. Men's waste are lower than the navel.

That said the drawing is very well done, and the skill involved far and away beyond my capabilities, I can barely draw stick figures.

I think the calls of homophobia are very wrong. Because someone does not like the picture and thinks it is does not mean they are homophobic and to have such presumptions shows more ignorance on your part than theirs. There is nothing homophobic about not wanting your avatar to look , it is more about style than sexual orientation, and there is nothing wrong with disliking a style.

Saying that someone who does not like this picture because in their view it looks , is buying into stereotypes is an argument on semantics. , or stereotypically , whatever you want to call it, it is discussing the same style.

And, just to clear it up, I don't think it looks , I think it looks more like a male stripper.

Edited to fix redundancy

[The Penguin Hunter]

Well I agree with the above poster, funny enough I didn't notice any of that when I looked at the picture the first time.

However it still doesn't change my opinions on the current male sorcerer, he looks rather bland, and doesn't give off any real feeling of "i'm evil"

[kharnage]

I agree with many of the others that have posted that I strongly prefer what Mythic has now over the model the OP created. I will most likely try a sorcerer, and I probably wouldn't if they looked like that. Mythic's version isn't perfect, but it's not too bad.

I'm not saying the OP's model is bad. It's not - it is quite awesome in fact. It is just that her vision for a sorcerer and mine are different.

[Estebar]

However it still doesn't change my opinions on the current male sorcerer, he looks rather bland, and doesn't give off any real feeling of "i'm evil" A lot of the concept art of the alternative gender option for each class has appeared as the lesser of the two. The Dwarfs (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Dwarfs.php) had to make do with little sketches of Dwarf women outlines in the corners of their class concept art. They didn't bother giving the female Zealot of Chaos (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Zealot02_02.jpg) hair, eyes or much skin texture. She looked like a grey alien from the X-files who'd recently become a goth. All female High Elves (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/HighElves/HighElf.php) have been colourless sketches, and so far the Shadow Warrior has shown no female concept art at all. So, I'd say it's not worth kicking up much of a fuss about this alternative gender option not looking as detailed as its female equivalent. It's a long-standing tradition. The Sorceress is the default gender for the career and, thus, gains much more attention in her design artwork.

[kharnage]

I, like many others, prefer the origional, and agree that it is too feminine for my tastes. Before I get called a homophobic, ignorant, or some other unfounded charge is leveled against me, I would point out that I am none of those things, and it is just personal taste.

I think he is too feminine, not because his chest and torso is shown, but because it is accentuated in such a flamboyant manner, or even accentuated at all. The hoop earings also add to his feminine look, as well as his femininely styled hair. He also has a lot more curvature to him than would be expected. His lower robe is fairly dress-like, and while not overly obvious it does give the drawing an extra hint of femininity. The head piece seems to be a tiara which is very much a feminine article of clothing. His waste is high up on his torso which is also a womanly characteristic. Men's waste are lower than the navel.

That said the drawing is very well done, and the skill involved far and away beyond my capabilities, I can barely draw stick figures.

I think the calls of homophobia are very wrong. Because someone does not like the picture and thinks it is does not mean they are homophobic and to have such presumptions shows more ignorance on your part than theirs. There is nothing homophobic about not wanting your avatar to look , it is more about style than sexual orientation, and there is nothing wrong with disliking a style.

Saying that someone who does not like this picture because in their view it looks , is buying into stereotypes is an argument on semantics. , or stereotypically , whatever you want to call it, it is discussing the same style.

And, just to clear it up, I don't think it looks , I think it looks more like a male stripper.

Edited to fix redundancy


Being called homphobic, etc doesn't mean anything anymore. All it means is that someone is angry you don't agree with them. There is a lot of name calling that goes on, and people rarely pay much attention to the words they use.

It's unfortunate really. Now when there really is someone homophobic, or misogynistic (and I have seen plenty of misogynistic comments) or whatever, calling them out doesn't have as much impact.

[Lucrece]

I, like many others, prefer the origional, and agree that it is too feminine for my tastes. Before I get called a homophobic, ignorant, or some other unfounded charge is leveled against me, I would point out that I am none of those things, and it is just personal taste.

I think he is too feminine, not because his chest and torso is shown, but because it is accentuated in such a flamboyant manner, or even accentuated at all. The hoop earings also add to his feminine look, as well as his femininely styled hair. He also has a lot more curvature to him than would be expected. His lower robe is fairly dress-like, and while not overly obvious it does give the drawing an extra hint of femininity. The head piece seems to be a tiara which is very much a feminine article of clothing. His waste is high up on his torso which is also a womanly characteristic. Men's waste are lower than the navel.

That said the drawing is very well done, and the skill involved far and away beyond my capabilities, I can barely draw stick figures.

I think the calls of homophobia are very wrong. Because someone does not like the picture and thinks it is does not mean they are homophobic and to have such presumptions shows more ignorance on your part than theirs. There is nothing homophobic about not wanting your avatar to look , it is more about style than sexual orientation, and there is nothing wrong with disliking a style.

Saying that someone who does not like this picture because in their view it looks , is buying into stereotypes is an argument on semantics. , or stereotypically , whatever you want to call it, it is discussing the same style.

And, just to clear it up, I don't think it looks , I think it looks more like a male stripper.

Edited to fix redundancy

Prefacing your post with a disclaimer saying that you are not X already rings alarm bells; you don't need to do that, as it just shows insecurity about your statements.

I agree that empty accusations mean very little, but most of the accusations here do have some basis. There is no such thing as a "" style, stereotypical or not. Such statements are as absurd as seeing some toon with baggy clothing and urban apparel, and saying that it looks "black"; I am sure you would not be as reluctant as to label these people racist. Furthermore, the issue was that the word is often used with negative associations in the very same post; it is used to describe something distasteful, which IS homophobic any way you slice it.

There are other ways to describe the apparel which doesn't make disparaging reference to a certain demographic.

As for the critique on apparel, I agree with some of the points you raise. It does look feminine due to the hoops, tiara, and the hairstyle. If you look at the DoK hairstyles in the concept art, there are some ways to make long hair in males look masculine.

Being called homphobic, etc doesn't mean anything anymore. All it means is that someone is angry you don't agree with them. There is a lot of name calling that goes on, and people rarely pay much attention to the words they use.

It's unfortunate really. Now when there really is someone homophobic, or misogynistic (and I have seen plenty of misogynistic comments) or whatever, calling them out doesn't have as much impact.
Really? I'm shocked that a homophobe himself does not flinch at the labeling of actions he feels so proud of!

This little comment coming from he person that said DE's are "too cool to be " and resorting to phrases like " crap".

Anyways, in the case that you did not see what happened to the other post on Male WE's for going off-topic, refrain from addressing anything that does not pertain to this thread's intent.

If you so choose to continue discussing homosexuality, find a way to do so in a way that relates to the concept redo from the OP.

As a reminder, note that Avian clearly emphasized that this is not the place to bash on homosexuality; read the forum rules for further reference.

[Uraithen]

Really? I'm shocked that a homophobe himself does not flinch at the labeling of actions he feels so proud of!


To be honest, I think that the Druchii should in NO WAY look . Such dress is completely alien to their society.

1. having or showing a merry, lively mood: spirits; music.

This being the primary and correct definition (as far as I'm concerned) of the word "". Considering this, someone who is is irreconcilable with Druchii society. Calling something in no way indicates a distaste for homosexuals.

This little rant has been brought to you by the national board of gimme mah damn language back plzkthxbai.

[Lucrece]

To be honest, I think that the Druchii should in NO WAY look . Such dress is completely alien to their society.

1. having or showing a merry, lively mood: spirits; music.

This being the primary and correct definition (as far as I'm concerned) of the word "". Considering this, someone who is is irreconcilable with Druchii society. Calling something in no way indicates a distaste for homosexuals.

This little rant has been brought to you by the national board of gimme mah damn language back plzkthxbai.


.... Do you actually expect me to swallow this theory that the word "" was used by such individuals with the official denotation, and not the more contemporary one?

I hope you were being sarcastic ;p. Anyways, back to the topic!

[Uraithen]

To be honest Lucrece, when I read the post you quoted, I assumed that he did in fact lament the weakening of words such as homophobe, which should carry serious weight. That in mind, the poster did not seem in any way stupid or closed minded, and while perhaps unable to articulate his objections to the new image, that they were most likely rooted in what I described above.

[Lucrece]

To be honest Lucrece, when I read the post you quoted, I assumed that he did in fact lament the weakening of words such as homophobe, which should carry serious weight. That in mind, the poster did not seem in any way stupid or closed minded, and while perhaps unable to articulate his objections to the new image, that they were most likely rooted in what I described above.

And you could have been correct if it weren't for his past posting history, which shoots your perspective down, sadly.

There are plenty of words that can be used to opine about this redo. Some have actually done it well.

Every now and then you get one immature poster that decides to ignore the rules of the site and use the usual homophobic gamer vernacular.

[kharnage]

Really? I'm shocked that a homophobe himself does not flinch at the labeling of actions he feels so proud of!



Obviously you have some major personal issues that probably don't belong on this board.

Rest assured, as I stated earlier (to your dismay it seems) I am not afraid of the gays.

It doesn't matter whether you love the lifestyle or not. I simply don't think discussions about gays has anything to do with Warhammer, especially on the Warhammer Armies Forum.

If you didn't notice, that was why the other thread got locked. You turned it into a thread on, yes, " crap". Athenys put in a lot of work to design an alternate male Sorcerer. Ruining her thread would not be cool.

Please don't do the same thing here.

There are plenty of websites given over to teh gays. This one is for Warhammer.:p

[Rilien]

The use of a disclaimer in front of these posts were made necessary, by your reactions as far as I can tell. If I did not see such hostility towards people who viewed the drawing as feminine, then I wouldn't have bothered.

While you may have a reason to believe there is some merit behind your charges of homophobia, I have not seen it in this thread. Perhaps there is history between you and these posters that I am unaware of.

Whether or not there is a style is subject to the individual. I see no reason to call homophobia because someone relates a particular style to a particular group.. I don't think that it is evidence of that the particular person dislikes that group.

You are rather presumptuous to say you are sure who I would or wouldn't label as racists.

The way I see the thread, the word was brought in by Athenys who assumed that because Ganymed said that it looked too feminine, that he meant it looked .

The next incident was when Ojike also said he didn't like it, and that it was feminine. To which you said, "Masculinity Crisis FTL!~" which I find to be rather insulting. Then Athenys said, "Oh great another 'he's gaaay' person. I've run into some 'effete'/metro guys that are nevertheless so attractive that men and women alike stare at them. The 'manly' men then go out of their way to ridicule them because they are homophobic and deeply insecure" Homophobic and insecure, all because in Ojike's opinion it was too feminine, not , but feminine. I think it is clear now why disclaimers became necessary, because you two made it so.

After that Ojike said it himself that it was NOT , just feminine. Thus your presumptions proved to be wrong.

Later on after Are'el took issue with the hostilities you said, "I agree that the homophobic reference is a stretch; sexist would be a more appropriate conclusion seeing as how his distaste of the drawing stems from the image's femininity."

So, you freed Ojike of the homophobic charge, but only to replace it with sexism.

Later on Athenys posts, "What I am curious about is why some guys think that a male who wears robes that show part of his torso looks 'feminine'. He is wearing black, he's got silver skulls. There is nothing remotely fruity about him! It's ok of you don't like the redesign for purely aesthetic reasons, but claiming that you don't like it because he looks '' *hurhur* is puerile. Really"

Even though at this point the word has only come from you two.

Things go smoothly for a while, then VeriusCarth says, "I agree.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against anything, really. Unless they force it on me. That's not cool. .........."

In response to a post by Estebar. At this point you bring up the perceived lack of need for a disclaimer, "Why do such a disclaimer unless you are aware that something in your comments may come off as latently homophobic? The whole " anything" and paranoia over being the poor straight guy who is forced to suffer such prepotent assaults by ravenous homosexuals is sketchy."

Looking back it is fairly obvious why a disclaimer is necessary, Lucrece and Athenys were both hostile to people who brought up the femininity of the sketch, claiming they were homophobic, or else sexist.

I don't feel like going through the rest of the thread, but I am sure there was at least one other confrontation.

However, at this point we know that the "" issue wasn't even brought up by the people who thought the drawing was feminine, but instead homosexuality was brought into the thread by Athenys and quickly followed by Lucrece, due to false presumptions. This caused unfounded accusations of homophobia, and sexism.

It is no wonder people started putting disclaimers in their posts.

[Lucrece]

The use of a disclaimer in front of these posts were made necessary, by your reactions as far as I can tell. If I did not see such hostility towards people who viewed the drawing as feminine, then I wouldn't have bothered.

While you may have a reason to believe there is some merit behind your charges of homophobia, I have not seen it in this thread. Perhaps there is history between you and these posters that I am unaware of.

Whether or not there is a style is subject to the individual. I see no reason to call homophobia because someone relates a particular style to a particular group.. I don't think that it is evidence of that the particular person dislikes that group.

You are rather presumptuous to say you are sure who I would or wouldn't label as racists.

The way I see the thread, the word was brought in by Athenys who assumed that because Ganymed said that it looked too feminine, that he meant it looked .

The next incident was when Ojike also said he didn't like it, and that it was feminine. To which you said, "Masculinity Crisis FTL!~" which I find to be rather insulting. Then Athenys said, "Oh great another 'he's gaaay' person. I've run into some 'effete'/metro guys that are nevertheless so attractive that men and women alike stare at them. The 'manly' men then go out of their way to ridicule them because they are homophobic and deeply insecure" Homophobic and insecure, all because in Ojike's opinion it was too feminine, not , but feminine. I think it is clear now why disclaimers became necessary, because you two made it so.

After that Ojike said it himself that it was NOT , just feminine. Thus your presumptions proved to be wrong.

Later on after Are'el took issue with the hostilities you said, "I agree that the homophobic reference is a stretch; sexist would be a more appropriate conclusion seeing as how his distaste of the drawing stems from the image's femininity."

So, you freed Ojike of the homophobic charge, but only to replace it with sexism.

Later on Athenys posts, "What I am curious about is why some guys think that a male who wears robes that show part of his torso looks 'feminine'. He is wearing black, he's got silver skulls. There is nothing remotely fruity about him! It's ok of you don't like the redesign for purely aesthetic reasons, but claiming that you don't like it because he looks '' *hurhur* is puerile. Really"

Even though at this point the word has only come from you two.

Things go smoothly for a while, then VeriusCarth says, "I agree.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against anything, really. Unless they force it on me. That's not cool. .........."

In response to a post by Estebar. At this point you bring up the perceived lack of need for a disclaimer, "Why do such a disclaimer unless you are aware that something in your comments may come off as latently homophobic? The whole " anything" and paranoia over being the poor straight guy who is forced to suffer such prepotent assaults by ravenous homosexuals is sketchy."

Looking back it is fairly obvious why a disclaimer is necessary, Lucrece and Athenys were both hostile to people who brought up the femininity of the sketch, claiming they were homophobic, or else sexist.

I don't feel like going through the rest of the thread, but I am sure there was at least one other confrontation.

However, at this point we know that the "" issue wasn't even brought up by the people who thought the drawing was feminine, but instead homosexuality was brought into the thread by Athenys and quickly followed by Lucrece, due to false presumptions. This caused unfounded accusations of homophobia, and sexism.

It is no wonder people started putting disclaimers in their posts.

While I may be "presumptuous", you are being purposely coy about tone and connotations. How convenient it is for you to ignore the particular use of a word associated with an entire demographic to express negative feelings.

Cut down on the whole intimidated, persecuted bringer of truth melodrama. I doubt you put disclaimers on everything you do for fear that you might displease people.

As for whether you find merit on my "charges", I don't think you're the be-all filter of opinions in this thread. I care very little for your approval. The same goes with your one-sided characterization of Athenys's actions or mine, talk about being presumptuous.

Furthermore, you're being dishonest by saying that I tossed the charge of homophobic to which Athenys agreed. If you bothered to read Ojike's post, you would have seen the description of a "feminine guy that dances all night". Masculinity crisis does not refer to homophobia, nice try. Are'el hardly took issues with what I said; she did not specify who she referred to in her post, or else she would've quoted me.

Besides the disclaimer observation, there were hardly any other charges of homophobia on my part. If you actually had taken the time to read the entire thread, which you admit you did not, the conversation continued quite smoothly, with no disclaimers. Then you brought up the dead horse all over again.

I also take issue with your intermingling of Athenys's posts with mine in order to try to blur the difference of our positions, quite insidious on your part. I made several posts where I critiqued the feminine aspects and how they might be altered to better satisfy a large group of people, which you dismissed for the purposes of your skewed argument.

Additionally, please refrain from presuming about my pre-existent psychological issues or any other conflicts that might be pushing me to X behavior. For scolding someone for being presumptuous, you are quite bloody presumptuous yourself.

[The Penguin Hunter]

A lot of the concept art of the alternative gender option for each class has appeared as the lesser of the two.

The Dwarfs (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Dwarfs.php) had to make do with little sketches of Dwarf women outlines in the corners of their class concept art.
They didn't bother giving the female Zealot of Chaos (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Zealot02_02.jpg) hair, eyes or much skin texture. She looked like a grey alien from the X-files who'd recently become a goth.
All female High Elves (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/HighElves/HighElf.php) have been colourless sketches, and so far the Shadow Warrior has shown no female concept art at all.So, I'd say it's not worth kicking up much of a fuss about this alternative gender option not looking as detailed as its female equivalent. It's a long-standing tradition. The Sorceress is the default gender for the career and, thus, gains much more attention in her design artwork.

Well the Male Sorc concept art doesn't fit anything if waht you said, it's colored and is done well from an artisitic standpoint, however that's not my complaint, mine is over the concept its self, he looks bland, it's like they attempted to make him look cool but failed miserably

[Lucrece]

Obviously you have some major personal issues that probably don't belong on this board.

Rest assured, as I stated earlier (to your dismay it seems) I am not afraid of the gays.

It doesn't matter whether you love the lifestyle or not. I simply don't think discussions about gays has anything to do with Warhammer, especially on the Warhammer Armies Forum.

If you didn't notice, that was why the other thread got locked. You turned it into a thread on, yes, " crap". Athenys put in a lot of work to design an alternate male Sorcerer. Ruining her thread would not be cool.

Please don't do the same thing here.

There are plenty of websites given over to teh gays. This one is for Warhammer.:p

Yes, I'll let the Queer Recruitment Agency know that my attempts to negotiate a place in a fantasy setting have been vetoed by the all-powerful representative of Warhammer Heterosexuals Against Crap United that you are.

Moving on for the sake of this thread...

[kharnage]

Yes, I'll let the Queer Recruitment Agency know that my attempts to negotiate a place in a fantasy setting have been vetoed by the all-powerful representative of Warhammer Heterosexuals Against Crap United that you are.

Moving on for the sake of this thread...

Thanks!!!!!:p

[Rilien]

" How convenient it is for you to ignore the particular use of a word associated with an entire demographic to express negative feelings."

I wasn't aware was a negative word, I was under the impression it is used even amongst gays. Even if it were negative, it wasn't brought up by the people who said that the drawing looked feminine.

"Cut down on the whole intimidated, persecuted bringer of truth melodrama."

I am not trying to act any certain way, and I apologize if I came off that way. I was merely telling how the thread progressed through my point of view. Which is that no one from what I saw was being homophobic, or sexist, and that you and/or Athenys jumped to conclusions.

"I doubt you put disclaimers on everything you do for fear that you might displease people."

I wasn't afraid of displeasing anyone, I put the disclaimer so that I wouldn't be labeled as something I'm not.

"As for whether you find merit on my "charges", I don't think you're the be-all filter of opinions in this thread."

And I have never claimed to be. I merely stated my opinion, whether others agree with it or not is up to their discretion, and never have I claimed otherwise.

"I care very little for your approval."

And I care little if you care for my approval or not.

"The same goes with your one-sided characterization of Athenys's actions or mine, talk about being presumptuous."

What exactly did I presume? Everything I commented on was from a quote.

"Furthermore, you're being dishonest by saying that I tossed the charge of homophobic to which Athenys agreed."

But, that is not what I said. I think I know the source of your confusion which is when I said, "So, you freed Ojike of the homophobic charge, but only to replace it with sexism."

I did not mean to say that you freed him from your charges of homophobia but rather, that you denounced Athenys charges of homophobia, but only replaced them with sexism. I should have been more clear, and for that I apologize, I wasn't being dishonest. After all, I have nothing against you, I am just calling it how I see it.

"If you bothered to read Ojike's post, you would have seen the description of a "feminine guy that dances all night". Masculinity crisis does not refer to homophobia, nice try."

I didn't try and equate masculinity crisis with homophobia.

"Are'el hardly took issues with what I said; she did not specify who she referred to in her post, or else she would've quoted me."

But did I say s/he took issue with you? No, I said s/he took issue with the hostilities.

"Besides the disclaimer observation, there were hardly any other charges of homophobia on my part."

Maybe not specifically, but it seemed to be implied when you said, "Lovely stereotypes, how innovative of you. Here, darling, I'll list you why by going through stereotypes, I can list you why every man in WAR is .

Humans= Strong, bald, hypermasculine to boot. He's your gym bunny and abercrombie .

Elves= ... No explanation, just elves. Twinks.

Dawi= Bears.

Orcs= No gender, but rather hypermasculine in looks, love to wrestle and do contact activities with each other.

Dark Elves: See elves, add a S&M twist.

Chaos: Chosen are the standing concept of hypermasculine, the true gym bunnies. Zealots are showing off their goods with all that nudity. Marauders, a bunch of men pillaging cities and doing "male bonding" in their regiments, how homoerotic. Magus are your typical posh, intellectual dandies.

Add in a homophobic imagination and might as well scratch everyone off who you dislike as just some f-ing "queer"."

At least it seems to me it was implied.

"If you actually had taken the time to read the entire thread, which you admit you did not"

I did read the whole thread, I just didn't feel like going back through it all to find every little detail, but apparently that was a mistake.

"Then you brought up the dead horse all over again."

My OP was in large part about the feminine features of the drawing, I did comment on the homophobia thing though, because it seemed very unfair to me.

"I also take issue with your intermingling of Athenys's posts with mine in order to try to blur the difference of our positions, quite insidious on your part."

Hardly insidious, and more the nature of your similar stances to be honest. I tried to keep it clear by giving the name of each person that made each quote. I did put you both in a common group, but one that you rate, that was the group of people being hostile to the people who said the drawing was feminine.

"I made several posts where I critiqued the feminine aspects and how they might be altered to better satisfy a large group of people, which you dismissed for the purposes of your skewed argument."

I wasn't really too concerned about the feminine aspects or how they might be altered. Most of the focus of my last post was on what I perceived to be unfounded claims against some people. I don't really see how that means I had a skewed argument. Whether or not you had critiques for the drawing was inconsequential to the claims you made about other people.

"Additionally, please refrain from presuming about my pre-existent psychological issues or any other conflicts that might be pushing me to X behavior. For scolding someone for being presumptuous, you are quite bloody presumptuous yourself. "

I fail to see where I was being presumptuous, my suspicion is that you are referring to, "While you may have a reason to believe there is some merit behind your charges of homophobia, I have not seen it in this thread. Perhaps there is history between you and these posters that I am unaware of."

I am not presuming you have any history or that you don't have any history, I am merely stating that I am ignorant to anything that may or may not have happened elsewhere. I don't think this is an out of place statement considering you said, "And you could have been correct if it weren't for his past posting history"

So, apparently you have past history with this individual that gives you insight beyond what can be gathered from this thread. My statement was merely an acknowledgement that that may be the situation with other posters as well.

Keep in mind this isn't directed soley at you(lucrece) but also athenys.

And finally, this, like all other internet disagreements will lead no where, I have had my say and will not comment on this subject in this thread anymore, regardless of your inevitable response.

[Lucrece]

" How convenient it is for you to ignore the particular use of a word associated with an entire demographic to express negative feelings."

I wasn't aware was a negative word, I was under the impression it is used even amongst gays. Even if it were negative, it wasn't brought up by the people who said that the drawing looked feminine.

"Cut down on the whole intimidated, persecuted bringer of truth melodrama."

I am not trying to act any certain way, and I apologize if I came off that way. I was merely telling how the thread progressed through my point of view. Which is that no one from what I saw was being homophobic, or sexist, and that you and/or Athenys jumped to conclusions.

"I doubt you put disclaimers on everything you do for fear that you might displease people."

I wasn't afraid of displeasing anyone, I put the disclaimer so that I wouldn't be labeled as something I'm not.

"As for whether you find merit on my "charges", I don't think you're the be-all filter of opinions in this thread."

And I have never claimed to be. I merely stated my opinion, whether others agree with it or not is up to their discretion, and never have I claimed otherwise.

"I care very little for your approval."

And I care little if you care for my approval or not.

"The same goes with your one-sided characterization of Athenys's actions or mine, talk about being presumptuous."

What exactly did I presume? Everything I commented on was from a quote.

"Furthermore, you're being dishonest by saying that I tossed the charge of homophobic to which Athenys agreed."

But, that is not what I said. I think I know the source of your confusion which is when I said, "So, you freed Ojike of the homophobic charge, but only to replace it with sexism."

I did not mean to say that you freed him from your charges of homophobia but rather, that you denounced Athenys charges of homophobia, but only replaced them with sexism. I should have been more clear, and for that I apologize, I wasn't being dishonest. After all, I have nothing against you, I am just calling it how I see it.

"If you bothered to read Ojike's post, you would have seen the description of a "feminine guy that dances all night". Masculinity crisis does not refer to homophobia, nice try."

I didn't try and equate masculinity crisis with homophobia.

"Are'el hardly took issues with what I said; she did not specify who she referred to in her post, or else she would've quoted me."

But did I say s/he took issue with you? No, I said s/he took issue with the hostilities.

"Besides the disclaimer observation, there were hardly any other charges of homophobia on my part."

Maybe not specifically, but it seemed to be implied when you said, "Lovely stereotypes, how innovative of you. Here, darling, I'll list you why by going through stereotypes, I can list you why every man in WAR is .

Humans= Strong, bald, hypermasculine to boot. He's your gym bunny and abercrombie .

Elves= ... No explanation, just elves. Twinks.

Dawi= Bears.

Orcs= No gender, but rather hypermasculine in looks, love to wrestle and do contact activities with each other.

Dark Elves: See elves, add a S&M twist.

Chaos: Chosen are the standing concept of hypermasculine, the true gym bunnies. Zealots are showing off their goods with all that nudity. Marauders, a bunch of men pillaging cities and doing "male bonding" in their regiments, how homoerotic. Magus are your typical posh, intellectual dandies.

Add in a homophobic imagination and might as well scratch everyone off who you dislike as just some f-ing "queer"."

At least it seems to me it was implied.

"If you actually had taken the time to read the entire thread, which you admit you did not"

I did read the whole thread, I just didn't feel like going back through it all to find every little detail, but apparently that was a mistake.

"Then you brought up the dead horse all over again."

My OP was in large part about the feminine features of the drawing, I did comment on the homophobia thing though, because it seemed very unfair to me.

"I also take issue with your intermingling of Athenys's posts with mine in order to try to blur the difference of our positions, quite insidious on your part."

Hardly insidious, and more the nature of your similar stances to be honest. I tried to keep it clear by giving the name of each person that made each quote. I did put you both in a common group, but one that you rate, that was the group of people being hostile to the people who said the drawing was feminine.

"I made several posts where I critiqued the feminine aspects and how they might be altered to better satisfy a large group of people, which you dismissed for the purposes of your skewed argument."

I wasn't really too concerned about the feminine aspects or how they might be altered. Most of the focus of my last post was on what I perceived to be unfounded claims against some people. I don't really see how that means I had a skewed argument. Whether or not you had critiques for the drawing was inconsequential to the claims you made about other people.

"Additionally, please refrain from presuming about my pre-existent psychological issues or any other conflicts that might be pushing me to X behavior. For scolding someone for being presumptuous, you are quite bloody presumptuous yourself. "

I fail to see where I was being presumptuous, my suspicion is that you are referring to, "While you may have a reason to believe there is some merit behind your charges of homophobia, I have not seen it in this thread. Perhaps there is history between you and these posters that I am unaware of."

I am not presuming you have any history or that you don't have any history, I am merely stating that I am ignorant to anything that may or may not have happened elsewhere. I don't think this is an out of place statement considering you said, "And you could have been correct if it weren't for his past posting history"

So, apparently you have past history with this individual that gives you insight beyond what can be gathered from this thread. My statement was merely an acknowledgement that that may be the situation with other posters as well.

Keep in mind this isn't directed soley at you(lucrece) but also athenys.

And finally, this, like all other internet disagreements will lead no where, I have had my say and will not comment on this subject in this thread anymore, regardless of your inevitable response.

On disagreements you are right. I still believe you're attempting to cover the sun with your finger and forcing an innocent perspective on actions that were clearly what they were labeled if you weren't so set on holding up people's innocence in remarks.

Nevertheless, I thank you for the clarifications on your post, even if I don't buy into some of them. At least it shows that you care to reach out in some way to make your point clear instead of other cases of just wanting to be an abrasive, aggravating individual.

[Avatar Of War]

I think the problem we are having communicating ourselves on this issue is that currently in our western culture (USA to be precise), the words feminine, and homosexual are all linked.

And for those stating that they want "their language back":
Go up to a black person and say the word Negro in a conversation, or instead of saying black or African American, use the word Negro (literally means black in spanish).


Now we all know what would happen. You would get punched in the jaw most likely. Yes the word is not the insult, but its associated with it to the point now that even saying that word Negro is bad.

And in today's culture even though we like to pretend otherwise, if you use the word "' people sure as heck don't think "happy and joyful"...


With that being said I want to remind all you guys who keep bantering the word feminine around about a little history:
* During the late 16, 17, and early 18oo's, the most attractive males(to females) were 'feminine'. By today's standards they would be ultimate metrosexuals.

* There is a reason powdered wigs, snuff, tight knee high stockings and silken ornate clothing was popular during this era.

* All descriptions of Don Juan and Casanova would, in today's culture, make them out to be blazing queens.
These men were extremely feminine to the point of fainting when challenged and putting on airs that would make soup opera stars ashamed. And Casanova was known to have slept with entire convents of nuns...

* Even the Edwardians by todays standards were not exactly 'manly'.....


The reason I bring this up is to remind us all that words and attitudes over the century's change.

And unfortunately most people jump to the conclusion these days that feminine and '' are the same thing.
Don't believe me? Next time your manliest friend does something slightly feminine, tell him that. He probably wont be pleased.

Where as 200 years ago being feminine was all the rage and a very good way to get into someone of the opposite sex's pants.



And now we are talking about a completely different culture in a completely different world, our attitudes on what is femine or '' (be it the traditional meaning or the new cultural one) do not apply.

Especially not to a people based around decadence and hedonism. The dark elves are not exactly Puratans...

[Lucrece]

I think the problem we are having communicating ourselves on this issue is that currently in our western culture (USA to be precise), the words feminine, and homosexual are all linked.

And for those stating that they want "their language back":
Go up to a black person and say the word Negro in a conversation, or instead of saying black or African American, use the word Negro (literally means black in spanish).


Now we all know what would happen. You would get punched in the jaw most likely. Yes the word is not the insult, but its associated with it to the point now that even saying that word Negro is bad.

And in today's culture even though we like to pretend otherwise, if you use the word "' people sure as heck don't think "happy and joyful"...


With that being said I want to remind all you guys who keep bantering the word feminine around about a little history:
* During the late 16, 17, and early 18oo's, the most attractive males(to females) were 'feminine'. By today's standards they would be ultimate metrosexuals.

* There is a reason powdered wigs, snuff, tight knee high stockings and silken ornate clothing was popular during this era.

* All descriptions of Don Juan and Casanova would, in today's culture, make them out to be blazing queens.
These men were extremely feminine to the point of fainting when challenged and putting on airs that would make soup opera stars ashamed. And Casanova was known to have slept with entire convents of nuns...

* Even the Edwardians by todays standards were not exactly 'manly'.....


The reason I bring this up is to remind us all that words and attitudes over the century's change.

And unfortunately most people jump to the conclusion these days that feminine and '' are the same thing.
Don't believe me? Next time your manliest friend does something slightly feminine, tell him that. He probably wont be pleased.

Where as 200 years ago being feminine was all the rage and a very good way to get into someone of the opposite sex's pants.



And now we are talking about a completely different culture in a completely different world, our attitudes on what is femine or '' (be it the traditional meaning or the new cultural one) do not apply.

Especially not to a people based around decadence and hedonism. The dark elves are not exactly Puratans...

Exactly. Anyone that fails to see the importance of context and connotation is just wanting to ignore the obvious.

[thedan]

not a bad piece, but i dont really like the miscolored hand-gear, the tiara, or the chest tattoo

[Dyst]

I think the problem we are having communicating ourselves on this issue is that currently in our western culture (USA to be precise), the words feminine, and homosexual are all linked.

And for those stating that they want "their language back":
Go up to a black person and say the word Negro in a conversation, or instead of saying black or African American, use the word Negro (literally means black in spanish).

Now we all know what would happen. You would get punched in the jaw most likely. Yes the word is not the insult, but its associated with it to the point now that even saying that word Negro is bad.

And in today's culture even though we like to pretend otherwise, if you use the word "' people sure as heck don't think "happy and joyful"...

With that being said I want to remind all you guys who keep bantering the word feminine around about a little history:
* During the late 16, 17, and early 18oo's, the most attractive males(to females) were 'feminine'. By today's standards they would be ultimate metrosexuals.

* There is a reason powdered wigs, snuff, tight knee high stockings and silken ornate clothing was popular during this era.

* All descriptions of Don Juan and Casanova would, in today's culture, make them out to be blazing queens.
These men were extremely feminine to the point of fainting when challenged and putting on airs that would make soup opera stars ashamed. And Casanova was known to have slept with entire convents of nuns...

* Even the Edwardians by todays standards were not exactly 'manly'.....

The reason I bring this up is to remind us all that words and attitudes over the century's change.

And unfortunately most people jump to the conclusion these days that feminine and '' are the same thing.
Don't believe me? Next time your manliest friend does something slightly feminine, tell him that. He probably wont be pleased.

Where as 200 years ago being feminine was all the rage and a very good way to get into someone of the opposite sex's pants.

And now we are talking about a completely different culture in a completely different world, our attitudes on what is femine or '' (be it the traditional meaning or the new cultural one) do not apply.

Especially not to a people based around decadence and hedonism. The dark elves are not exactly Puratans...
I agree with all of this... but how exactly is it related to the Male sorcerer looking good* or not? Excuse me if I am not fully up to date on this discussion.

Let's remember it is still Warhammer Online we are discussing, not the entire history of sexuality and sexual prejudice or oppression (which certainly has existed for more than 200 years).

*A good indicator of that would be if people wants to play the career or not.

[Avatar Of War]

I agree with all of this... but how exactly is it related to the Male sorcerer looking good* or not? Excuse me if I am not fully up to date on this discussion.

Let's remember it is still Warhammer Online we are discussing, not the entire history of sexuality and sexual prejudice or oppression (which certainly has existed for more than 200 years).

*A good indicator of that would be if people wants to play the career or not.

Well actually , the last two sentences of my post, are a comment on the pages of debate about how supposedly the artwork is not good and/or inappropriate because of the picture being feminine and ''" (which personally I can't see at all).

My comment was merely to state that the picture and the style in which the sorcorer are depicted are appropriate for the setting.

Anything else that people are 'seeing' are their own cultrual biases and opinions. As i mentioned before both feminine and are cultural biases, any qualification as such is based soley one ones cultural opinion and not the actual word since the words (as most everyone seems to agree with what I said in my post) have changed connotations over the years and no longer adhere to their intended meaning.

Simply put, using abstracts as ''/feminine/manly/butch/ect. is inappropriate for this discussion since were not talking about our culture and we should not be using our biases to judge the picture.
Meaning: if you have an issue with the picture say what it is instead of using cultural abstracts. Like the robes are too long, or the he shows to much chest, or even his hair is to long.


It seems we are all trying to judge the picture by what we like and dislike alone really is not fair to the artist. Yes we all have our biases but we need to get past them and judge the work on its merits and not our personal biases;

In some parts of Africa the most beutiful women are those that are over 300 lbs. If the artist had painted such a women, there would be complaint that he made a 'fat chick'. Yet you take a potrait of Paris Hilton or Callista Flockhart to Africa and they would complain about him painting a .sickly skinny chick'. The actual person in the picture does not matter what matters is what he is wearing and how it fits into the game.



That being said:
Its a freaking awesome picture and I love the style in which the sorcerer is dressed and its more than apropriate considering the outfits of his female counterpart and the culture and world they are in.

You rock!:cool:

[kharnage]

I agree with all of this... but how exactly is it related to the Male sorcerer looking good* or not? Excuse me if I am not fully up to date on this discussion.

Let's remember it is still Warhammer Online we are discussing, not the entire history of sexuality and sexual prejudice or oppression (which certainly has existed for more than 200 years).

*A good indicator of that would be if people wants to play the career or not.

You are right. Most of his/her posts have nothing to do with Warhammer at all. Some people seem to post on WH topics as if it's their personal blog (or they haven't read the forum rules). I'm guilty of getting sucked into these ridiculous posts too.

I believe I know the reasons Athenys redid the male sorcerer model. She was concerned about both the male and female wearing outfits that looked as close as possible. Some commented that there was no reason for the outfits to look so different. I personally don't see a problem with it. There is no rule that Men and Women dress the same all the time in Warhammer. Mythic made the characters look like they do in WH. Not everyone is happy with that, but I think the majority of people will be.

[Avatar Of War]

Hey I'm just posting on the conversation as it progresses. As most conversations do. If a conversation does not progress its not really a conversation?

And honestly. if a topic has diverged from its original intent, and I make comments based on the way the topic has gone that does not make me a personal blogger.

And have you ever had in your life a long conversation that did not diverge or change at least slighty during its course?

If you have your pretty damn boring.

[Mikhail87]

Wow, that is really great! Good job...it definitely adds more flavor to the design.